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AM81T2 - 宗教之心是一颗非常实事求是的心
第二次公开讲话
荷兰，阿姆斯特丹
1981年9月20日



0:47 I am afraid this is the last talk. Like two friends sitting in the park on a lovely day, talking about life, talking about their problems, investigating seriously the very nature of their existence and asking themselves seriously why life has become such a great problem. Why, though intellectually you are very sophisticated, yet our daily life is such a grind without any meaning, except survival, which again is rather doubtful. Why life, everyday existence, has become such a torture. One may go to church, follow some leader politically or religiously, but the daily life is always a turmoil though there are certain periods, occasionally joyful, happy, but there is always a cloud of darkness about our life. And these two friends talking together, as we are, you and the speaker, we are talking over together in a friendly manner, perhaps with affection, with care, with concern, whether it is at all possible to live a life, our daily life without a single problem. And though we are highly educated, have certain careers, specialised, yet we have these unresolved struggles, pain, suffering, joy and sometimes a great feeling of not being totally selfish. And together, if we can this morning, go into this question: why human beings live as we do live, go to the office from nine o’clock until five or six for the next fifty years, or be occupied all the time, not only with our own problems, but also the brain, the mind is constantly occupied, there is never a quietness, there is never peace, there is always this occupation with something or other. And that is our life. That is our daily, monotonous, rather lonely, insufficient life. And we try to escape from it through religion, through various forms of entertainment. 我恐怕这是最后一次讲话了。 就像两个朋友在一个风和日丽的日子里， 坐在公园里谈论人生， 谈论他们各自的问题， 认真地探讨他们存在的本质， 然后严肃地问问自己， 为什么生活会变成如此巨大的一个问题。 为什么，虽然在学术方面你是非常的尖端， 但我们的日常生活却是一种苦差，完全没有意义， 除了生存下去——它也是相当令人怀疑的， 为什么生活，每日的存在，变成了一种如此不堪的折磨。 我们也许会去教堂， 追随某些政治或者宗教领袖， 但我们的日常生活却总是混乱不堪， 虽然也有一些时刻偶尔会感到喜悦、快乐， 但乌云却总是笼罩着我们的生活。 而这两个朋友一同交谈， 正如我们，你和讲话者， 我们以一种友好的方式，在一起交谈， 也许是带着感情、关心与关怀， 谈论是否有可能去过一种生活， 一种没有半点问题的日常生活。 而虽然我们受过高等教育，有特定的职业，是专业人士， 然而我们还是有着这些未曾解决的挣扎、 痛苦、苦难、喜悦 和偶尔的美好感觉——感觉自己并非完全自私自利。 而如果可以的话，今天早上我们一起 去探讨这个问题：为什么人类要像我们这样生活？ 去办公室上班，从早上九点到下午五六点， 就这样度过接下来的五十年， 或无时无刻不在忙碌，不只是处理我们自己的问题， 而且大脑、心灵也在不断地忙碌着， 从未有过一刻平静，从未有过安宁， 总是被这个或者那个东西所占据。 这就是我们的生活。 这就是我们日常的、单调的、相当孤独的、缺乏的生活。 而我们试图通过宗教来逃避它， 通过各种形式的娱乐来逃避它。
5:55 At the end of the day we are still where we were for the last thousands and thousands of years. We seem to have changed very little psychologically, inwardly. And our problems increase. And always there is the fear of old age, disease, some accident that will put us out. So this is our existence, from childhood until we die, either voluntarily or involuntarily die. We don’t seem to have been able to solve that problem also, the problem of living and the problem of dying. Especially as one grows older, one remembers all the things that have been: the times of pleasure, the times of pain, the times of sorrow, the times of tears. But always there is this unknown thing called death of which most of us are frightened. And as two friends sitting in the park on a bench, not in this hall with all this light and so on, which is rather ugly, but sitting on a bench in the park with sunlight – the dappling light, the sun coming through the leaves – the ducks on the canal and the beauty of the earth, talking over together. And that’s what we are going to do, talking over together as two friends who have had a long life, a long serious life with all the troubles, the troubles of sex, loneliness, despair, depression, anxiety, uncertainty, a sense of meaninglessness to all this. And there is always, at the end of all this, death. 而在一天结束时，我们仍旧是老样子， 和几千年前的我们一样。 从心理上和内在来看，我们似乎并没有什么改变。 我们的问题不断增加，我们总是在害怕年老、 疾病和某些事故会结束我们的生命。 所以这就是我们的生活，从童年开始直到死去 ——不管是自然死去还是非自愿地死去。 而我们也似乎无法解决那个问题， 生活的问题和死亡的问题。 特别是当我们渐渐老去时， 我们回忆起所有以前的事情； 快乐的时光，痛苦的时光， 悲伤的时光，和哭泣的时光。 但那个被称为“死亡”的未知之物却总是在那里， 令我们大多数人惊慌害怕。 而如同两个朋友坐在公园里的长凳上， 不是在这个礼堂里，点着所有这些灯，等等， ——这里相当丑陋—— 而是坐在公园的长凳上，沐浴着阳光 和斑驳的光影， 阳光穿过树叶， 鸭子在河上游动，还有大地的美， 在这里一起讨论。 而这就是我们所要做的， 像两个朋友一样一起谈论，两个已经活了很久的朋友， 漫长严肃的生活中充满了烦恼， 性的烦恼、孤独、 失望、沮丧、焦虑、不确定， 一种这一切都毫无意义的感觉。 而这一切的最后永远都是，死亡。
9:29 And in talking about it, either we intellectually approach it, that is rationalise it, say it is inevitable, don’t be frightened or escape through some form of belief, the hereafter as the Asiatics believe, reincarnation, or if you are highly intellectual this is the end of all things, end of all our existence, our experiences, our memories, tender, delightful, plentiful. And also with it goes the great pain and suffering. What does it all mean, this life which is really, if one examines very closely, rather meaningless? One can intellectually, verbally, construct a meaning to life, but the way we live has very little meaning actually. 而当我们谈论它时，我们要么是从智力上去处理它， 也就是把它合理化，说它是不可避免的。 不要害怕或逃避它，通过各种信仰来逃避， 就像亚洲人所相信的来世、转生， 或者，如果你有高度的理性，你相信这是一切的终结， 我们的所有存在、我们的经验、我们的记忆 ——温柔的、愉快的各种记忆的终结。 同样，伴随着它而去的还有那种巨大的痛苦和苦难。 这到底意味着什么？ 这个生命其实——如果我们非常密切地去检视它的话—— 是毫无意义的？ 我们可以在智力上、口头上给生命建立一个意义， 但我们的生活方式其实是没多少意义的。
11:12 So there is this thing called living and dying. That is all we know. Everything apart from that becomes a theory, a speculation; or a pursuit of a belief in which one finds some kind of security, hope. But those beliefs are also very shallow, rather meaningless, as all beliefs are. Or you have ideals projected by thought, and struggle to achieve those ideals. This is our life whether we are very young, full of vitality, fun, a sense that one can do almost anything, but even then with youth, middle age and old age, there is always this question - death, dying. Can we, this morning, talk over together this? Please, as we pointed out yesterday, we are thinking about it together. You are not merely, if one may point out, listening to a series of words, to some ideas, but rather together, I mean together, investigate this whole problem of living and dying. And either one does it with one’s heart, with one’s whole mind, or partially, superficially, and so with very little meaning. 所以确实有这种叫做生与死的东西， 这就是我们所知的一切。 除了这些，其他的都是理论、猜测； 或是追随某个信仰以便获得某种安全感、希望。 但那些信仰也是非常肤浅的， 相当没有意义，全部信仰都是如此。 或者你有一些思想所投射出来的理想， 然后你奋力去实现那些理想。 这就是我们的生活， 即使我们是非常年轻、充满活力和乐趣的人， ——觉得自己几乎无所不能—— 但无论是年轻人，还是中年人或老年人， 我们都有这个问题：死亡、死去。 我们能不能，在这个早上，一同来谈论这些？ 拜托，正如我们昨天所提到的， 我们是在一起思考它。 你不是仅仅在——如果允许我指出来的话—— 听一连串的词语，听一些观点， 而是一同，我是说一同， 去考察这整个关于生与死的问题。 要么你是全心全意地在做这件事， 全神贯注，或只是局部地、表面地参与， 因而就没有多大意义。
14:10 So first of all we should see that our brains never act fully, completely, we only use a very small part of our brain. That part is the structure of thought. That part being in itself a part and therefore incomplete, as thought is incomplete, so the brain functions within a very narrow area, depending on our senses, our senses which again are partial, never all the senses fully awakened. I do not know if you have not experimented with watching something with all your senses: watching the sea, the birds and the moonlight at night on a green lawn. If you have not watched partially or with all your senses fully awakened. The two states are entirely different. When you watch something partially you are establishing more the separative, egotistic attitude and living. But when you watch that moonlight on the water making a silvery path, with all your senses, that is, with your mind, with your heart, with your nerves, giving all your attention to that observation, then you will see for yourself that there is no centre from which you are observing. 因此首先，我们应该看到我们的大脑从未充分地运作、 完全地运作，我们只使用了我们大脑中很小的一部分。 那一部分就是思想的结构。 那个部分本身只是大脑的一部分，因而并不完整， 因为思想就是不完整的， 所以大脑运行在一个非常狭小的区域里， 依赖我们的感官来运作， 同样的，我们的感官也是部分的， 从未让所有的感官都充分地觉醒。 我不知道你们是否曾经试过 用你们所有的感官去观看某物， 观看大海， 夜晚青草地上的小鸟和月光， 你是否并没有局部地去看， 而是带着你充分觉醒的所有感官在看。 这两种状态是完全不同的。 当你局部地观看某物时， 你是在助长更多孤立 与自我中心的态度以及生活。 但是，当你观看那水面上的月光 绘出一道银色的轨迹，用你所有的感官去看， 也就是，用你的头脑，用你的心灵， 用你的神经，全神贯注于那种观察， 那么你自己就会看到 并不存在一个你从其出发去观察的中心。
16:52 So can we observe what is living, the actuality and what does it mean to die ? Together. Our life, daily life, is a process of remembrances. Our brain, mind is entirely memory. Right? Are we together in this? This is rather a difficulty that I am not sure that we are understanding each other. I don’t know how much English you know, and that is not an insulting statement, whether we understand English completely, what the speaker is saying. Or you are partially listening, partially understanding English, and so, attention wandering off, and so one looks rather dazed – from here. The language that the speaker is using is very ordinary non-specialised language. It is simple English. So I hope we understand each other. 所以我们能不能去观察什么是生活，什么是现实， 以及死亡意味着什么？一起去观察？ 我们的生活，日常生活，是一个记忆的过程。 我们的大脑、心灵完全就是记忆。 对吗？我们都明白这点吗？ 这确实是一个难题， 所以我不确定我们是否彼此理解了。 我不知道你们的英语水平怎样， 而这不是一句侮辱你们的话， 究竟我们是完全理解英语， 理解讲话者所说的， 还是你们在部分地倾听，部分地理解英语， 所以注意力游离开去， 因此从这里看过去你们相当茫然。 讲话者所使用的语言 是非常普通的词语，非专业化的语言。 它是简单的英语。 所以我希望我们能够彼此了解。
19:11 We are saying we are – we, our ego, our personality – our whole structure is entirely put together as memory, we are memory - right? This is subject to investigation, please, don’t accept it. Observe it, listen. The speaker is saying, the you, the ego, the me, is altogether memory. There is no spot or space in which there is clarity. Or, you can believe, hope, have faith that there is something in you which is uncontaminated, which is God, which is a spark of that which is timeless, you can believe all that. But that belief is merely illusory, all beliefs are. But the fact is that, our whole existence, we are entirely memory, remembrance. There is no spot or space inwardly which is not memory. You can investigate this, if you have time, perhaps not this morning because we have a lot to cover, but if you are enquiring seriously into yourself you will see that the ‘me’, the ego, is all memory, remembrances. And that is our life, we function, live from memory. And for us death is the ending of that memory. Right? 我们说我们已经，我们、我们的自我、我们的个性、 我们的整个结构已经完全被拼凑成了记忆， 我们就是记忆——对吗？ 请注意，这个还需经过考察，不要接受它。 观察它，聆听它。 讲话者正在说， 这个“你”，这个自我，这个“我”，完全就是记忆。 在它之中没有任何一处是清晰明澈的。 你们都可以去相信，去希望，去信奉 在你身上有某样东西是无染的， 它是神，是火花——永恒的火花， 你可以去相信这一切。 但这些信仰只是错觉——所有信仰都是错觉。 而事实则是，我们的整个存在， 我们完全是记忆，是回忆。 我们内在没有任何一处不是记忆。 你可以去审视这一点——如果你有时间的话， 也许不是在今天早上，因为我们还有很多东西要谈， 但如果你认真地探究你自己， 你将会看到那个“我”，自我，完全是记忆，回忆。 而那就是我们的生活，我们经由记忆运作和生活。 而对我们来说，死亡就是那种记忆的终结。 对吗？
21:56 Am I speaking to myself, or are we all together in this? You see, the speaker is used to talking in the open, under trees, or in a vast tent without these glaring lights, and one can then have an intimate communication with each other. As a matter of fact, there is only you and me talking together, not all this enormous audience in a vast hall, but you and I sitting on the banks of a river, on a bench, talking over this thing together. And one is saying to the other: we are nothing but memory, and it is to that memory that we are attached – my house, my property, my experience, my relationship, the office I go to, the factory, the skill I like being able to gather during a certain period of time, I am all that. And to that, thought is attached. That’s what we call living. And this attachment, with all its problems, because when you are attached there is fear of losing, we are attached because we are lonely, deep abiding loneliness which is suffocating, isolating, depressing. And the more we are attached to another, which is again memory – the other is a memory: my wife, my husband, my children, are physically different from me, psychologically the memory of my wife, I am attached to that, to the name, to the form, my existence is attachment to that memory which I have gathered through all my life. Where there is attachment I recognise, observe there is corruption. When I am attached to a belief, hoping in that attachment to that belief there will be certain security, both psychologically as well as physically, that attachment not only prevents further examination, but I am frightened to examine even when I am greatly attached to something – to a person, to an idea, to an experience. So corruption exists where there is an attachment. And one’s whole life is a movement within the field of the known. This is obvious. And death means the ending of the known. Right? Ending of the physical organism, ending of all the memory of which I am. I am nothing but memory, memory being the known. I am frightened to let all that go, which means death. I think that is fairly clear, at least verbally. That is, intellectually you can accept that. Logically, sanely, that is a fact. 我是不是在自言自语，或者我们都一起在探索它？ 你们看，讲话者已经习惯在户外讲话， 在树下，或者在一个大篷帐里，没有这些耀眼的灯光， 那样我们之间就能有一种亲密的交流。 事实上， 只有你和我在一起交谈， 而没有在这个巨大礼堂里的数量庞大的听众， 而是你和我坐在河岸上， 坐在长凳上，一起谈论这些东西。 其中一个人对另一人说，我们只不过是记忆， 而我们所依附的正是这种记忆： 我的房子、我的财产、我的经验、我的关系、 我上班的办公室和工厂， 还有技能——我希望在某段特定的时期里能积累起来。 我就是所有这一切。 而思想依附于这些东西，这就是我们所谓的生活。 而这个依附，有着它所带来的所有问题， 因为当你依附时，就会有害怕失去的恐惧， 我们之所以依附是因为我们孤独， 深深的寂寞感是那么令人窒息、隔绝、压抑。 而我们越是依附于对方， ——这也是记忆，对方是一个记忆， 我的妻子、丈夫、孩子在生理上和我是不同的， 而心理上我有关于我妻子的记忆，我依赖于这种记忆， 她的名字、模样，我的存在就是 对那种记忆的依附——那种记忆是我一辈子收集起来的。 我认识到，也观察到当有了依附， 就会有腐败。 当我依附于一个信仰， 希望在那个信仰的依附里会有某种安全， ——既包括心理上的安全，也包括生理上的安全， 那种依附不仅阻止了进一步的检视， 而且我也害怕去检视——即便是 我非常严重地依附于某样东西时 ——依附一个人、一个理念、一个经验。 所以当有了某种依附，腐败就会存在。 而我们整个的一生是一种已知领域内的运动。 这是显而易见的。 而死亡意味着所有已知的结束，对吗？ 物理机体的结束， 所有记忆的结束——我就是那些记忆。 我只不过是记忆而已，记忆就是已知。 而我害怕放弃所有那些，那意味着死亡。 我想这相当清楚，至少在口头上。 也就是说，理智上你能够接受它。 逻辑上，理智上，这是一个事实。
27:47 So the question is: why human beings throughout the world, though they believe – some of them, in the Asiatic world – in the rebirth of themselves in the next life; the next life being much more dignified, more prosperous, better house, better position. So those who believe in reincarnation, that is, the soul, the ego, the ‘me’ – which is a bundle of memories – being born next life. The next life is a better life because if I behave rightly now, conduct myself righteously, live a life without violence, without greed and so on, the next life I will have a better life, better position. But next life... a belief in reincarnation is just a belief because those who have this strong belief don’t live a righteous life today. Right? You are following all this? It is just an idea that the next life will be marvellous. The beauty of the next life must correspond to the beauty of the present life. But the present life is so tortuous, so demanding, so complex, we forget the belief and struggle, deceit, hypocrisy, every form of vulgarity and so on. That is one aspect of death, believing in something next life. 所以问题是：为什么全世界的人类， 虽然他们中的一些人相信——那些亚洲人—— 他们会在来世重生， 来世他们会活得更有尊严，更加富裕， 有更好的房子，更高的地位。 那些相信轮回转世的人， 也就是，那个灵魂，那个自我，那个“我”， ——它只不过是一堆记忆——将会在来世重生， 来世将会更好，因为如果我现在行动正确， 让自己正直地行动，过一种非暴力的生活， 没有贪念，等等， 那么我就会有更好的来世，更高的地位。 但那是来世的事情了， 转世的信仰只是一个信仰而已， 因为那些拥有这坚强信仰的人， 此刻并没有在过一种正直的生活。 对吗？你们理解这一切了吗？ 它只是一个观念，认为来世将会非常美好。 来世的美好， 必定是与当下生活的美好相呼应的。 但当下的生活是如此的折磨，如此的费力，如此的复杂， 我们忘记了那种信仰，然后就有了斗争、欺骗、伪善、 各种粗鄙庸俗的事，等等。 那是对死亡的一种看法，相信会有来世。
30:18 But those who do not accept such theory, though they are trying to compile evidence of reincarnation, which is rather absurd too - you understand all this? - because what is it that is going to reincarnate? What is it that has continuity? You understand my question? Are we talking together? What is it that has continuity in life, in our daily life? It is the remembrance of yesterday’s experience, pleasures, fears, anxieties and there is that continuity right through life unless we break it and move away from that current. Right? 但是对于那些不接受这种理论的人， 虽然他们设法收集转世的证据 ——这也是非常可笑的—— 你们明白这些吗？ 因为将要去转世的是什么？ 那个延续的东西是什么？ 你理解我的问题吗？我们是在一起探讨吗？ 那个在生命里，在我们日常生活中延续的东西是什么？ 它是对昨日经验的记忆， 对昨日快乐、恐惧和焦虑的记忆， 这些东西贯穿一生都在延续着， 除非我们打破它，脱离这股洪流。 对吗？
31:34 Now the question is: is it possible while one is living, with all the turmoil, with that energy, capacity, to end, say for example, attachment? Because that is what is going to happen when you die. You may be attached to your wife, to your husband, to your property – not to property, that is dangerous – we are attached to some belief, belief in God. That belief is merely a projection, or an invention of thought, but we are attached to it because it gives a certain feeling of security however illusory it is, we are attached to that. Death means the ending of that attachment. Now, while living, can we end voluntarily, easily, without any effort, that form of attachment? Which means dying to something we have known. You follow? Can we do this? Because that is living and dying together, not separated by a hundred years, or fifty years, waiting for some disease to push us off. But living with all our vitality, energy, intellectual capacity, with the greater feeling, to end certain conclusions, certain idiosyncrasies, experiences, attachments, hurts, to end it. That is, while living also living with death. You understand this? Are we meeting each other? So that death is not something far away, death is not something that is at the end of one’s life, through some accident, disease, old age, but rather living, to all the things of memory, ending that, which is death. That means death is not separate from living. 现在的问题是：有没有可能在我们活着的时候， 面对动荡变乱，用那种能量和力量， 去结束——举个例子来说——依附？ 因为那就是当你死亡时将会发生的事情。 你也许依附于你的妻子、你的丈夫、 你的财产——不是依附于财产，那是很危险的—— 我们依附于某种信仰——神明的信仰。 那个信仰只是一个投射，或者是思想的一个发明， 而我们依附于它是因为它给予我们某种安全感， 不管那种安全感如何虚幻，我们还是依附于它。 死亡意味着结束那个依附。 那么，在我们活着时，我们能否自愿地，轻易地， 毫不费力地结束那种依附？ 那意味着对我们已知的事物死去。 你们明白吗？ 我们能这样做吗？ 因为那才是生与死融为一体， 不是把两者分开一百年或五十年， 等待某种疾病来把我们送走。 而是活着，充满了我们的活力、能量、 聪明才智，带着更强烈的感受， 去终结某些结论、 个性、经验、依附、伤害，去结束它们。 那就是，在你活着的时候，也和死亡共存。 你明白了吗？ 我们之间达成共识了吗？ 由此死亡就不是某个遥远的东西， 死亡并不是我们生命尽头的某个东西， 因为事故、疾病或者衰老而死亡， 而是在我们活着的时候，对所有那些记忆中的事物死去， 结束它们，这才是死亡。 这意味着死亡并不是和生活分开的。
35:13 Also, as we said yesterday, we should consider together, sitting on the banks of that river on a bench, water flowing, clear, not muddied, polluted water, seeing all the movement of the waves pursuing each other down the river, we also as two friends sitting there, talk together about what is religion. Why has religion played such a great part in our lives from the ancient of times until today? What is a religious mind like? What does the word 'religion' actually mean? Because historically – not that one has read a great deal about it but one has observed how civilisations disappear, to be reborn again with a different religion. Religions have brought about new civilisations, new culture. Not the technological world, not the computers, the submarines, the war materials. Nor the businessman, nor the economists, but religious people throughout the world have brought about a tremendous change. So, one must enquire together what we mean by that word ‘religion’. What is its significance, whether it is mere superstition, illogical, meaningless? Or there is something far greater, something much more, infinitely beautiful. And to find that is it not necessary – we are talking over together as two friends – is it not necessary to be free of all the things thought has invented as religion? You understand my question? I want to find out what is the significance of religion. What is the depth of it? What is its end? Because man has always sought something beyond the physical existence. He has always looked, searched, asked, suffered, tortured himself to find out if there is something which is not of time, which is not of thought, which is not belief or faith. And to find that out one must be absolutely free, otherwise if you are anchored to a particular form of belief that very belief will prevent investigation into what is eternal, if there is such a thing as eternity which is beyond all time, beyond all measure. So one must be free, if one is serious in the enquiry into what is religion, one must be free of all the things that thought has invented, put together, that which is considered religious. That is, all the things that Hinduism has invented, with its superstition, with its beliefs, with its images, and the ancient literature as the Upanishads and so on, one must be completely free of all that. If one is attached to all that then it is impossible, naturally, to discover that which is original. You understand the problem? 还有，正如我们昨天所说，我们必须一同去思考， 坐在河岸边，坐在长凳上， 河水流过，清澈的河水——而不是那种浑浊的污水—— 看着所有波浪的运动， 一浪追一浪顺流而下， 我们也是作为两个朋友而坐在这里， 一起谈论什么是宗教。 为什么宗教在我们的生活中扮演着如此重要的角色， 从远古时代开始直到今天？ 宗教心灵是什么样的？ “宗教”一词到底是什么意思？ 因为纵观历史——不是因为我饱读史书， 而是我已经看到了各种文明是如何灭绝， 然后又带着一种不同的宗教而重生的。 宗教带来了新的文明，新的文化； 不是科技世界，不是电脑、 潜水艇、战争工具， 也不是商人或经济学家； 而是，遍及世界的宗教人士 已经带来了人类巨大的改变。 所以，我们必须一同去询问我们所说的“宗教”一词是什么意思。 它的意义是什么， 它是否仅仅是迷信、毫无逻辑、毫无意义的东西？ 还是它有着某种远远更为伟大的东西， 某个更加无限美好的东西？ 而要去发现它，这难道不是必需的吗 ——我们在像两个朋友一样一起交谈—— 这难道不是必需的吗——那就是我们要摆脱掉 所有思想发明出来的宗教的东西？ 你明白我的问题了吗？ 我想要去发现宗教的意义是什么？ 它的深度是什么？它的终点是什么？ 因为人类总是去寻找某些 超越物质存在的事物。 他一直在寻找、探索、询问、受苦、 折磨着自己去发现是否存在着某种不属于时间的事物， 某种不属于思想，也不是信仰或者信念的事物。 而要发现它，我们必须完全自由， 否则，如果你停留于某个特定形式的信仰， 那个信仰本身就将阻碍你去探究那个永恒之物 ——如果存在着这样一个永恒的东西， 这样一个超越所有时间，超越所有度量的东西的话。 所以我们必须自由， 如果我们是认真地在探询什么是宗教， 我们就必须摆脱所有思想所发明的东西， 思想所拼凑起来的，那个被认为是宗教的东西。 也就是，所有那些印度教所发明的东西， 及其迷信、信仰和意象， 以及那些古老的文献——《奥义书》，等等， 我们必须完全摆脱这些。 如果我们还依附于所有这些，那么自然地，我们就不可能 去发现那个源头的事物了。 你们明白这个问题吗？ 也就是说，如果我的心灵、我的大脑
41:36 That is, if my mind, my brain is conditioned by the Hindu superstition, beliefs, dogmas, idolatry, with all the ancient tradition, my mind then is anchored to that, therefore it cannot move, it is not free. Therefore one must be free completely from all that: being a Hindu. Right? Similarly, one must be free totally from all the inventions of thought, as the rituals, dogmas, beliefs, symbols, the saviours and so on of Christianity. That may be rather difficult, that is coming nearer home. Or if you go to Ceylon or the Tibetan, North, Buddhism, with all their idolatry, as the idolatry of Christianity, they too have this problem: being attached as security to the things thought has invented. So, all religions, whether Christianity, Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism, they are the movement of thought continued through time, through literature, through symbols, through things made by the hand or by the mind, all that is considered religious in the modern world. To the speaker that is not religion. To the speaker it is a form of illusion, comforting, satisfying, romantic, sentimental but not actual, because religion must affect life, the way we live, that is the significance of life. Because then only when there is order – as we talked about yesterday – in our life. 已经被印度教的迷信所局限， 被印度教的信仰、教条、偶像崇拜 及其所有的古老传统所局限， 那么我的心灵就被固定在那里了， 所以它就无法动弹，它失去了自由。 所以我们必须完全摆脱那一切， 不再做一个印度教徒，对吗？ 同样的，我们必须完全摆脱所有思想的发明， 比如仪式、教条、信仰、符号、 救世主以及等等基督教的东西。 那可能相当困难，那越来越接近要害了。 或者你去锡兰或西藏， 北方，佛教，以及他们全部的偶像崇拜， 和基督教的偶像崇拜一样，他们也有这个问题： 依附于思想所发明的东西，把它作为安全感。 所以所有的宗教，无论是基督教、伊斯兰教、 印度教或佛教， 它们都是思想的运动——这种运动通过时间、 文献、符号而延续， 通过用双手和头脑所制造出来的事物而延续， 在现代世界里，所有这些就被认为是宗教。 但对讲话者来说，这并不是宗教。 对讲话者来说，它是某种形式的幻想， 令人安慰、满意、浪漫、感性，但却并不真实， 因为宗教必须影响生活，影响我们的生活方式， 这才是生命的意义所在。 因为只有那时，才会有秩序 ——就像我们昨天所说的——出现在我们的生活中。
44:56 Order is something that is totally disassociated with disorder. We live in disorder, that is, in conflict, contradiction, say one thing, do another, think one thing and act another way, that is contradiction. Where there is contradiction, which is division, there must be disorder. And a religious mind is completely without disorder. That is the foundation of religious life, not all the nonsense that is going on with the gurus with their idiocies. 秩序是某种完全与混乱没有关联的事物。 我们生活在混乱中，也就是生活在冲突、矛盾中， 说一套做一套，表里不一， 那就是矛盾。 当有了矛盾——也就是分裂—— 那就一定会有混乱。 而一个宗教心灵是完全没有混乱的。 这是宗教生活的基础， 而不是所有那些大师的废话以及他们的白痴行为。
45:53 You know it is a most extraordinary thing: many gurus have come to see the speaker, many of them. Because they think I attack the gurus. You understand? They want to persuade me not to attack. They say, what you are saying and what you are living is the absolute truth, but not for us, because we must help those people who are not as fully advanced as you are. You see the game they play. You understand? So, one wonders why the Western world, or some of the Western people go to India, follow these gurus, get initiated – whatever that may mean – put on different robes and think they are terribly religious. But strip them of their robes, stop them and enquire into their life, they are just like you and me. 你知道这是非常奇怪的事： 很多古鲁都曾经来找过讲话者，很多古鲁。 因为他们认为我在抨击古鲁。 你理解吗？ 他们想要说服我不要再抨击了。 他们说，你所说的以及你所过的生活， 是绝对的真理，但不适合我们， 因为我们必须帮助那些人——他们并没有你这样高的境界。 你看看他们所玩的把戏。你明白吗？ 所以，我想知道为什么西方世界， 或者某些西方人要去印度， 跟随那些古鲁，获得启蒙——不管它或许意味着什么？ 穿上各色长袍，然后想象自己是多么的虔诚。 但脱掉他们的长袍， 让他们停下来，然后质询他们的生活，你会发现他们和你我是一样的。
47:24 So the idea of going somewhere to find enlightenment, changing your name to some Sanskrit name, seems so strangely absurd and romantic without any reality, but thousands are doing it. Probably it is a form of amusement without much meaning. The speaker is not attacking. Please let’s understand: we are not attacking anything, we are just observing, observing the absurdity of the human mind, how easily we are caught, we are so gullible. 所以这种去某个地方寻找觉悟的想法， 把自己改个梵文的名字， 显得真是非同寻常的荒谬和不切实际，毫无真实性， 但成千上万的人都在做这件事。 这也许是一种娱乐消遣的形式，却没有多大意义。 讲话者并没有在抨击。让我们清楚这一点： 我们并没有在抨击任何东西，我们只是在观察， 观察人类头脑的荒谬可笑， 我们是多么容易落入陷阱，我们是如此容易受骗。
48:27 So, a religious mind is a very factual mind, it deals with facts. That is, facts being what is actually happening, with the world outside, and the world inside. The world outside is the expression of the world inside, there is no division between the outer and the inner – that is too long to go into. So, a religious life is a life of order, diligence, dealing with what is actually happening within oneself, without any illusion, so that one leads an orderly, righteous life. When that is established, unshakeably, then we can begin to enquire what is meditation. 因此，宗教心灵是一个非常实事求是的心灵，它只处理事实。 也就是那些真正在发生着的事实， 外在世界和内在世界所发生着的事实。 外在世界是内心世界的表现， 外在和内在之间并无分割， 这一点说来话长，我们就不谈了。 所以宗教生活是一种充满秩序的、勤勉的生活， 去处理那些在我们内心真实发生的事情， 没有任何幻想，由此我们就可以过一种有序的、正直的生活。 当这些已经确立起来，无可动摇时， 我们才能开始去探讨什么是冥想。
49:48 Perhaps that word did not exist about twenty years ago, or thirty years ago in the Western world. The Eastern gurus have brought it over here. There is the Tibetan meditation, Zen meditation, the Hindu meditation, the particular meditation of a particular guru, the meditation of yoga, sitting cross legged, breathing, you know, all that. All that is called meditation. We are not denigrating the people who do all this. We are just pointing out how absurd meditation has become. The Christian world believes in contemplation, giving themselves over to the will of God, grace and so on. They have the same thing in the Asiatic world, only they use different words in Sanskrit, but it is the same thing: man seeking some kind of everlasting security, happiness, peace, not finding it on earth, hoping it exists somewhere or other, the desperate search for something imperishable. This has been the search of man from time beyond measure. The ancient Egyptians, the ancient Hindus, Buddhists and so on, and some of the Christians have followed this. 也许这个词二十年前还未存在于西方世界， 或者是三十年前。 东方的古鲁们，把这个词带到了这里。 他们有西藏冥想、 禅宗冥想、印度冥想、 某个古鲁的某种特别的冥想、 瑜伽的冥想——盘腿而坐， 呼吸，你们都知道的，所有那些东西。 所有这些都被称为冥想。 我们不是在诋毁那些做冥想的人。 我们只是指出冥想已经变得多么的荒谬。 基督教的世界相信沉思， 完全把自己交付给上帝的意志，上帝的荣耀等等。 在亚洲世界，人们也有着同样的东西， 只不过他们用的是不同的梵文词语， 但还是同样的东西： 人类寻求某种永恒的安全、 幸福、平静，但在地球上找不到， 于是人们期望它存在于别处， 拼命地寻找某些不朽之物。 这就是人类从很久很久以前开始，一直以来的寻找。 古代埃及人、古代印度人、 佛教徒等等是如此，而一些基督教徒也在寻找它。
52:37 So to enquire together, to go deeply into what is meditation and whether there is anything called sacred, holy – not the thing that thought has invented as being holy, that is not holy, what thought creates is not holy, is not sacred because it is based on knowledge, and knowledge being incomplete, and whatever thought invents, how can that be sacred? But we worship that which thought has invented all over the world. 所以要来一起探询， 深入探讨什么是冥想 以及到底有没有任何所谓的神圣、圣洁 ——不是思想发明的所谓神圣， 那并不神圣，思想创造出来的东西并不神圣， 也不圣洁，因为它是建立在知识上的， 而知识是不完整的，思想所发明的任何东西， 怎么会是神圣的呢？ 但我们——整个世界——都在崇拜思想所发明的东西。
53:37 So together, having established, some partially, others completely, totally, order in their life, in their behaviour, in which there is no contradiction whatsoever, having established that, and rejected, totally rejected, all the various forms of meditation, their systems, their practices because when you practise you are repeating over and over again, like a pianist if he practises, he may be practising the wrong note. So, it is easy to conform to a pattern, to obey something somebody has said that will help you to reach the highest state of whatever it is. So you practise, you accept systems because you want to get something other than ‘what is’. 所以当我们一起，在自己的生活和行动中建立起了 秩序——有些人是部分的秩序，有些人则是完全、彻底的秩序， 在那种完全的秩序中没有任何矛盾。 我们建立起了这种秩序，并且拒绝了——完全地拒绝—— 所有不同形式的冥想、他们的体系，他们的练习。 因为当你练习时，你是在一遍又一遍地重复， 就像一位钢琴家练习钢琴，他也许弹奏的是错误的音符。 所以这是一件很容易的事，那就是去遵从某个模式， 去服从某个人所讲的东西， 那些东西可以帮助你达到终极境界——不管那种境界是什么。 所以你练习，你接受了那些体系， 因为你想要获得一些并非“事实”的东西。
55:03 Now we are saying quite the contrary. There is no system, no practice, but the clarity of perception of a mind that is free, which has no direction, no choice, but free to observe. Most meditations have this problem, which is controlling thought. The one who practises is different from that which he is practising. I hope you are following all this, if it interests you. So most meditation, whether the Zen, the Hindu, the Buddhist, the Christian, or the latest guru, is to control your thought because through control you centralise, you bring all your energy to a particular point. That is, concentrate. Which is, there is a controller different from the controlled. Are you following all this? Which is the controller is the past, which is still thought, still memory, and that which he is controlling is still thought, which is wandering off, so there is conflict. You are sitting quietly and thought goes off, you want to concentrate, like a schoolboy looking out of the window and the teacher says, ‘Don’t look out of the window, concentrate on your book’. And we do the same thing. So one has to learn the fact, the controller is the controlled. Is that clear? Must all this be explained, step by step? That is – I’ll explain, please. 而现在我们说的是截然相反的东西。 并没有什么体系，也没有什么练习， 只有那个自由心灵的清晰觉察， 这种觉察没有方向，没有选择，只是自由地观察。 大多数冥想都存在这个问题，也就是控制思想。 那个在练习的人和他所练习的东西是不同的。 我希望你们在理解着这一切——如果你感兴趣的话。 所以大多数冥想，不论是禅宗，还是印度教、 佛教、基督教，或者那些新出炉的古鲁， 都要去控制你的思想，因为通过控制思想你就能集中注意力了， 你把你所有的能量贯注在某一点上。 也就是，专心。 也就是说，有一个控制者，他与被控制物是不同的。 你们理解所有这些了吗？ 那就是，控制者就是过去， 而过去仍旧是思想和记忆， 而他在控制的也仍旧是思想， 被控制的思想要游离开去，因此就有了冲突。 你安静地坐着，但思想却开小差了，你想要专心， 就像一个学生看着窗外，于是老师就会说 “不要看窗户外面，专心看你的书。” 而我们都在做着同样的事。 所以我们必须认识到这个事实，控制者就是被控制之物。 这个清楚了吗？ 所有这些是不是一定要一步一步地来解释？ 也就是说，我会来解释，请听好。
57:57 The controller, the thinker, the experiencer, we think is different from the controlled, from the movement of thought, from the experiencer and the experience, we think these two are different movements. But if you observe closely, the thinker is the thought. Thought has made the thinker separate from thought, which then says, ‘I must control’. You are following all this? This is so logical, so sane. So when the controller is the controlled, then you remove totally conflict. Conflict exists only when there is division. Between you and the Germans, between the Israelis and the Arabs. Where there is nationalistic, or economic, or social division there must be conflict. So inwardly where there is the division between the observer, the one who witnesses, the one who experiences is different from that which is experienced, there must be conflict. And our life is conflict because we live with this division. But this division is fallacious, is not real, it has become our habit, our culture, to control. We never see the controller is the controlled. Right? Do you get all this? 控制者、思想者、经验者， 我们认为他们是不同于被控之物， 不同于思想的运动， 不同于经验者和经验的， 我们认为这两者是不同的运动。 但如果你密切地观察，思想者就是思想。 是思想把思想者和思想分开了， 然后那个思想者说，我必须要去控制。 你理解这一切吗？ 这是非常符合逻辑、非常理性的。 所以当控制者就是被控制物时， 那么你就完全消除了冲突。 只有当存在分割时，才会有冲突。 你和德国人之间的分割，以色列人和阿拉伯人之间的分割。 当有了国家的、经济的 或者社会的分割，那么就必然会有冲突。 所以从内在来讲，当有了观察者 和他所观察到的事物之间的分割， 那个经验者和他所经验的事物有了区分， 那么就必然会有冲突。 而我们的生活就是冲突，因为我们带着这种分割生活。 但这种分割是虚妄的，它并不是真实的， 控制已经变成了我们的习惯、我们的文化。 我们从来没有看到控制者就是被控制物。 对吗？你明白这些吗？
1:00:02 So when one realises that, not verbally, not idealistically, not as a utopian state for which you have to struggle, but to observe it actually in one’s life that the controller is the controlled, the thinker is the thought, then the whole pattern of our thinking undergoes a radical change because there is no conflict. And that is absolutely necessary if you are meditating because meditation demands a mind that is highly compassionate. And therefore highly intelligent, the intelligence which is born out of love, not out of cunning thought. 所以当我们领悟到这点，不是口头上，不是作为理想， 不是作为一个你需要为之奋斗的乌托邦状态， 而是在自己的生活中去切实地观察到它 ——控制者就是被控制物， 思想者就是思想， 那么我们整个的思考模式就会有一次根本的改变， 因为冲突已经消失了。 如果你在冥想的话，这是绝对必要的。 因为冥想需要的是一个极度慈悲 因而也是极度智慧的心灵， 那种智慧来自于爱， 而不是来自于狡猾的思想。
1:01:19 So meditation means the establishment of order in our daily life, in which there is no contradiction. Then, rejecting totally all the systems, meditations, all that, because the mind must be completely free, without direction, and also it means a mind that is completely silent. Is that possible? Because we are chattering endlessly; the moment you leave this place I know you will start chattering. So our minds are everlastingly occupied, chattering, thinking, struggling, and so there is no space. Space is necessary to have silence. For a mind that is practising, struggling, wanting to be silent is never silent. But when it sees that silence is absolutely necessary, not the silence projected by thought, not the silence between two notes, between two noises, between two wars, but the silence of order. And when there is that absolute silence – not cultivated silence which is what most meditations try to do: cultivate silence. That is, cultivate thought, which is never silent. I don’t know if you see the absurdity of it. So when there is that silence then one discovers – sorry, one doesn’t discover – in that silence, truth, which has no path to it, exists. Truth then is timeless, sacred, incorruptible. That is meditation, that is a religious mind. 所以冥想意味着在我们的日常生活中建立起秩序， 其中没有矛盾。 然后彻底摒弃所有的体系、冥想，所有这些东西， 因为心灵必须完全自由，没有方向， 同时，这意味着一个完全寂静的心灵。 这可能吗？ 因为我们总是在喋喋不休， 一旦你离开这个地方，我知道你就会开始喋喋不休了。 所以我们的心灵永无止尽地被占据着， 被唠叨、思考、斗争所占据，因此就没有了空间。 而寂静需要空间。 一个在不断练习、奋斗 和想要寂静的心灵永远不会寂静。 但当它看到寂静是完全必要的， 不是那个由思想投射出来的寂静， 不是在两个音符、两个噪音、两次战争之间的寂静， 而是那种充满秩序的寂静， 当有了那种彻底的寂静， 不是那种培养出来的寂静，大多数冥想都在努力去做这件事—— 那就是培养寂静，也就是去培养那种永远不会安静的思想。 我不知道你是否看到了这么做的荒谬可笑。 所以当有了那种寂静，那么我们就会发现 ——对不起，我们还没有发现—— 在那种寂静中，我们就会发现真理的存在——而没有任何道路可以通往真理。 那时的真理就是永恒的、神圣的、永不腐败的。 那才是冥想，那才是一个宗教心灵。
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