克里希那穆提 - 机械的生活方式导致失序

Krishnamurti Subtitles

BR76CTM2 - 机械的生活方式导致失序
与博姆和西恩博格的第二次探讨
英国，布洛克伍德
1976年5月18日

0:13	K: Do we go on where we left off yesterday? Or would you like to start something new?	克：我们要继续昨天中断的地方谈下去吗？或者说，你们想要来谈一点新的东西？
0:22	B: I thought there was a point that wasn't entirely clear... when discussing yesterday. Which is that we rather accepted that... security, psychological security was wrong, was illusion... but in general I don't think we made it... very clear why it is a delusion. Most people feel that... psychological security is a real thing... and quite necessary and when it's disturbed... or when a person is frightened, or... sorrowful, or even so disturbed that... he might be psychologically disturbed and require treatment... he feels that psychological security... is necessary before he can even begin... to do anything. K: Yes, right.	博姆：我觉得有一点我们还没有完全搞清楚在我们昨天的讨论中我们似乎接受了这一点那就是安全感，心理上的安全感是错误的，是错觉但大体而论，我觉得我们并没有把它讲清楚，为什么它是一种错觉？大部分人会觉得心理上的安全感是真实存在的并且是非常必要的，当心理上的安全感受到干扰时或者说，当一个人感到害怕悲伤，或者甚至说受到了如此的干扰，以至于心理上有点失常而需要治疗时他会觉得心理上的安全感是必需的，没有它，他甚至无法开始去做什么事情。克：是的，很对。
1:06	B: And I think that it isn't at all clear why one should say... that it's really... not as important as physical security.	博姆：所以我觉得有一点是很不清楚的，那就是为什么我们要说心理上的安全感其实并不如生理上的安全感来得重要。
1:16	K: Yes. No, I think we have made it fairly clear, didn't we? but let's go into it. B: Yes.	克：好的。不，我倒是觉得我们已经把它讲得相当清楚了，没有吗？不过还是让我们来探讨一下它吧。博姆：好的。
1:22	K: Is there really psychological security at all?	克：心理上的安全感是否真的存在？
1:28	B: I don't think we discussed that fully last time.	博姆：我想我们上次并没有充分地讨论过它。
1:30	K: Of course. Nobody accepts that. But we are enquiring into it... going into the problem of it.	克：当然了。没有人会接纳这个问题。但是我们是在探询这个问题去深入这个问题。
1:39	S: But we said something even deeper I think yesterday. And that is that - at least as I was summarising for myself... and that is that we felt... - correct me if you think I'm wrong here... that conditioning... conditioning sets the stage... for the importance of psychological security... and that in turn creates insecurity. And it is the conditioning that creates... the psychological security as a focus? Would you agree with that?	西恩博格：但我觉得我们昨天甚至谈到了一些更为深刻的东西。那就是——至少就我自己的总结来看那就是我们认为 ——要是你觉得我这里说错了，请纠正我环境的制约环境的制约为心理安全感的重要性提供了舞台而心理上的安全感转而带来了不安全。而正是环境的制约制造出了作为我们焦点的心理上的安全感？你同意这一点吗？
2:13	K: I think that we two mean something different.	克：我认为我们两个说的东西有点不一样。
2:16	S: What do you mean?	西恩博格：你说的是什么意思？
2:21	K: First of all, sir... we take it for granted that there is psychological security.	克：首先，先生我们理所当然地认为存在着心理上的安全。
2:30	S: OK. Well, we think that we can get it.	西恩博格：是的。嗯，我们认为自己可以获得那种安全。
2:34	K: We feel that there is. S: Right. That's right.	克：我们觉得有着那种安全。西恩博格：对。没错。
2:39	B: Yes, I think that if you told somebody who was feeling... very disturbed mentally that... there is no psychological security... he would just feel worse. K: Collapse. Of course.	博姆：是的，我觉得要是你告诉一个内心烦扰不安的人说并不存在心理上的安全他只会感觉更加糟糕。克：他会崩溃。这是毫无疑问的。
2:49	S: Right.	西恩博格：是的。
2:50	K: We are talking of fairly sane, rational people.	克：但我们在谈论的是那些还算是心智健全和理性的人。
2:55	S: OK.	西恩博格：好吧。
2:56	K: We are questioning whether there is... any psychological security at all... permanency, stability... a sense of well-founded, deep-rooted... existence psychologically.	克：我们在质疑，是否真的存在心理上的安全那种永久性的，稳固可靠的让人感觉有理有据，且根深蒂固的心理上的存在。
3:14	S: Maybe if we could say more... What would be psychological security?	西恩博格：也许我们可以展开谈一下什么是心理上的安全感？
3:19	K: After all, I believe. I believe in something. It may be the most foolish belief...	克：从根本上来说就是，我的信仰。我信仰某个东西。它或许是最愚蠢的信仰
3:27	S: Right.	西恩博格：是的。
3:29	K: ...a neurotic belief. I believe in it.	克：……一种神经病的信仰。但我就是信仰它。
3:32	S: Right.	西恩博格：没错。
3:34	K: And that gives you a tremendous... sense of existence, living, vitality, and stability.	克：而这带给了你一种强烈的存在感，一种活着的，充满活力的，稳定可靠的感觉。
3:42	B: I think you could think of two examples, one is that... if I could really believe that... after dying I would go to heaven... and be quite sure of it... then I could be very secure inwardly... no matter what happens. S: That would make you feel good.	博姆：我觉得你可以想到两个例子，一个就是如果我真的相信死后我将会去天堂并且对此确信无疑的话那么我的内心就会很有安全感无论发生什么事情。西恩博格：它会让你感觉很好。
3:53	B: I'd say, I don't really have to worry, because it's all... a temporary trouble and then I am pretty sure that in time... it is all going to be very good. Do you see?	博姆：我会说，我其实不用担心什么，因为一切都是暂时的困境，而我确信最后一切都会有很好的结局。你明白了吗？
4:00	K: That's the whole Asiatic attitude, more or less.	克：这或多或少就是所有亚洲人的态度。
4:03	B: Or if I think I am a communist then I say... in time communism is going to solve everything and... we are going through a lot of troubles now... but, it's all going to be worthwhile and... it will work out, and in the end it will be all right.	博姆：或者说，如果我是一个共产主义者，那么我就会说共产主义最终将会解决一切问题而我们现在需要去经过所有那无数的困难挫折但这一切都是值得的它将会解决那些问题，最后，一切都会变得很好。
4:14	S: Right. B: If I could be sure of that... then I would say I feel very secure inside... even if conditions are hard.	西恩博格：对。博姆：如果我能够确信它的话那么我就会说，我觉得内心十分安全哪怕境况是如此的艰难。
4:22	S: OK. All right. K: So we are questioning... though one has these strong beliefs... which gives them a sense of security... permanency, whether there is such in reality, actuality...	西恩博格：嗯。没错。克：所以我们在质疑尽管人们有着这些坚定的信仰这些信仰带给了他们一种安全、永久的感觉，但实际上、事实上，有没有这样一个东西呢？
4:40	S: It's not possible. The question is, is it possible? K: Is it possible?	西恩博格：是不可能有的。问题应该是：可能有这种东西吗？克：可能有吗？
4:47	K: I may believe in god and that gives me a tremendous sense of... impermanency of this world... but at least there is permanency somewhere else.	克：我也许信仰上帝，而这种信仰使我强烈地感觉到这个世界的短暂性但至少在某个其他地方有着永恒。
5:00	S: Yes. But I want to ask David something. Do you think that... for instance, take a scientist, a guy... who is going to his laboratory everyday... or take a doctor, he is getting security. He takes security from... the very 'routinization' of his life.	西恩博格：是的。但我想要问大卫一下。你觉得举个例子，比如说某个科学家，那个家伙每天都去他的实验室或者说某个博士，他所获得的安全感他的安全感是来自于他生活中的那种已成习惯的‘例行公事’。
5:20	K: From his knowledge.	克：安全感来自于他的知识。
5:21	S: Yes, from his knowledge. If he keeps doing this, he feels… In the scientist, where does he get security?	西恩博格：是的，来自于他的知识。如果他一直保持这样做的话，他会觉得对于科学家来说，他是从哪里获得安全感的？
5:28	B: He makes believe he is learning the permanent laws of nature... and really getting something that means something. Also getting a position... in society and being sure, being well known... and respected and financially secure.	博姆：他相信自己正在钻研的是自然界永恒的法则并且能够获得一些成果，一些有意义的成果。他同样可以获得社会上的地位确保他的……他能够出名和受人尊敬，并且获得经济上的保障。
5:45	S: He believes that these things will give him the thing. The mother believes that the child will give her security.	西恩博格：他相信这些事物可以带给他那个东西。母亲相信孩子可以给她带来安全。
5:53	K: Don't you psychologically have security?	克：你难道不也有着心理上的安全感吗？
5:57	S: Yes, OK. Right. That's a good point. I get a security out of my knowledge... out of my routine, out of my patients... out of seeing my patients, out of my position.	西恩博格：是的，没错。好吧。你说的对。我从我的知识中得到安全感从我的日常工作中，从我的病人身上从给病人看病中，从我的地位中得到一种安全感。
6:09	B: But there is conflict in that... because if I think it over a little bit... I doubt it, I question it. I say, it doesn't look all that secure... anything may happen. There may be a war, there may be... a depression, there may be a flood.	博姆：但是在这之中有着冲突因为要是我稍微思考一下它的话我就会怀疑它，质疑它了。我会说，它看起来并不是那么的安全世事无常。也许会爆发战争，也许会有经济萧条，也许会发生一场洪灾。
6:23	K: There may be sane people all of a sudden in the world! (Laughter)	克：也许世界上的人突然都心智健全了！（笑声）
6:27	S: Do you think there is a chance?	西恩博格：你觉得这有可能吗？
6:32	B: So I say there is conflict... and confusion in my security because I am not sure about it.	博姆：所以我认为，在我的安全感中，有着冲突和困惑，因为我无法确信它。
6:39	S: You are not sure about it.	西恩博格：你无法确信它。
6:40	B: But if I had an absolute belief in god and heaven...	博姆：但要是我彻底相信上帝和天堂的话
6:45	K: This is so obvious.	克：这是显而易见的。
6:47	S: It's obvious. I agree with you... but I think it has to be... in other words, it has to be really felt through.	西恩博格：这很显然，我同意你但是我认为这一点需要去换句话说，我们需要真正地，彻底地去感受到它。
6:53	K: Sir, you, Dr. Shainberg, you are the victim.	克：先生，你，西恩博格医生，你就是受害者。
6:58	S: I'll be the victim.	西恩博格：我来当那个受害者吧。
6:59	K: For the moment. Don't you have strong belief?	克：此刻，你难道没有坚定的信仰吗？
7:03	S: Right. Well, I wouldn't say...	西恩博格：好吧。嗯，我不会说
7:05	K: Don't you have a sense of... permanency somewhere inside you?	克：你难道没有觉得你在自己内心的某处有着一种永久感吗？
7:10	S: I think I do. K: Psychologically?	西恩博格：我想是有的。克：心理上的永久感？
7:12	S: Yes, I do. I have a sense of permanency about my intention.	西恩博格：是的，我有。我感到自己的动机意图是永久性的。
7:17	K: Intention, your knowledge. S: My work. My knowledge...	克：动机意图，你的知识。西恩博格：我的工作，我的知识
7:22	K: ...status.	克：……身份地位。
7:23	S: ...my status, the continuity of my interest. You know what I mean?	西恩博格：……我的身份地位，延续保持我的兴趣。你明白我的意思吗？
7:30	K: Yes.	克：明白。
7:33	S: There is a sense of security... in the feeling that I can help someone.	西恩博格：我之所以感到安全是因为我觉得我可以帮助别人。
7:36	K: Yes. S: And I can do my work. OK?	克：是的。西恩博格：我可以做我的工作。对吧？
7:40	K: That gives you security, psychological security.	克：它给你带来了安全感，心理上的安全感。
7:42	S: There is something about it that is secure. What am I saying when I say 'security'? I am saying that I won't be lonely.	西恩博格：但是关于那种安全，是可以展开谈一些东西的。当我说‘安全’的时候，我所表达的是什么？我的意思是我不会再孤单了。
7:50	K: No, no. Feeling secure... that you have something that is imperishable.	克：不，不是。感到安全因为你有着某种永恒不灭的东西。
7:56	S: Which means... - No, I don't feel it that way. I feel it more in the sense of... what is going to happen in time... am I going to have to depend on... what is my time going to be, am I going... to be lonely, is it going to be empty?	西恩博格：它意味着……——不，我的感觉不是这样的。我的感觉更多的是从这种意义上来讲的：即最后将会发生什么？我是不是需要去依赖于我的未来会怎样，我是不是会变得很孤单，变得很空虚？
8:12	K: No, sir. S: Isn't that security?	克：不，先生。西恩博格：这些难道不都是安全感吗？
8:14	K: As Dr. Bohm pointed out... if one has a strong belief in reincarnation... as the whole Asiatic world has... then it doesn't matter what happens... in the next life you have a better chance. You might be miserable this life but next life you will be happier. That gives you a great sense of... 'this is unimportant, but that is important'.	克：就如博姆博士所指出的要是一个人坚信轮回转世 ——整个亚洲世界都持有这种信仰—— 那么无论发生什么事都不要紧了下辈子你将会有更好的机会。这辈子你也许是痛苦悲惨的，但是下辈子你将会快乐幸福。这带给了你一种强烈的感受即‘这是不重要的，那才是重要的’。
8:41	S: Right.	西恩博格：对。
8:43	K: And that gives me a sense of great comfort... as though, 'Well, this is a transient world anyhow... and eventually I'll get there, to something permanent'. This is human...	克：而它带给了我一种极大的安慰感就好像我说，‘嗯，无论如何，这是一个短暂易逝的世界而我最终将会达到那里，达到某种永恒不朽的东西。人类就是这样
9:00	S: This is in the Asiatic world... but I think in the western world you don't have that.	西恩博格：亚洲世界有着这种信仰但我想在西方世界里，人们并没有这种信仰。
9:04	K: Oh, yes you have it. S: With a different focus.	克：噢，是的，你们也有…… 西恩博格：但焦点有所不同。
9:06	K: Of course.	克：当然了。
9:08	B: It's different but you've always had the search for security.	博姆：焦点不一样，但你们也一直在寻找着安全感。
9:10	S: Right, right. But what do you think security is? you became a scientist, you went to the laboratory... you picked up the books all the time. Right? You never went to the laboratory... but you have had your own laboratory. What the hell do you call security?	西恩博格：对，没错。但你认为什么是安全感呢？你成为了一名科学家，你去实验室你一天到晚捧着那些书。对吗？你从来不去实验室但你曾有过自己的实验室。你所谓的‘安全感’究竟是什么呢？
9:26	K: Security?	克：安全感？
9:28	S: Yes, but what does he call his security? Knowledge?	西恩博格：是的，他所谓的那种自己的安全感是什么呢？知识吗？
9:33	K: Having something... to which you can cling to and which is not perishable. It may perish eventually but at the time... for the time being it is there to hold on to.	克：有着某种你可以依靠的不会毁灭的东西。它也许最终会毁灭，但是在那个时候暂时来讲，它就在那儿，而我可以紧紧抓住它。
9:46	B: You can feel that it's permanent. In the past, people used to accumulate gold... because gold is the symbol of the imperishable, they could feel.	博姆：你会觉得它是永恒的。在过去，人们常常会积攒黄金因为他们觉得，黄金就是永恒不灭的象征。
9:54	S: We still have people who accumulate gold... we have business men, they have got money.	西恩博格：现在也还是有人在积累黄金比如那些商人，他们拥有着财富。
9:58	B: You feel it's really there. K: There.	博姆：你会觉得它就在那里。克：就在那里。
10:01	B: It will never corrode, it will never vanish... and you can count on it.	博姆：它永远不会被侵蚀，它永远不会消失它是你可以依靠的东西。
10:08	S: So it's something that I can count on.	西恩博格：所以它是某种我可以依靠的东西。
10:11	K: Count on, hold on to, cling to, be attached to.	克：某种可以依靠，可以紧紧抓住，可以依赖，可以执著的东西。
10:15	S: Believe in, the 'me'. K: Exactly. I know that I am a doctor. I can depend on that.	西恩博格：可以相信的东西，那个‘我’。克：正是如此。我知道我是一个医生。我可以依靠它。
10:24	K: Knowledge, experience. S: Experience.	克：依靠你的知识，你的经验。西恩博格：经验。
10:28	K: And on the other hand, tradition.	克：另一方面来说，就是传统。
10:30	S: Tradition. I know that if I do this... with a patient that I will get this result. I might not get any good results but I'll get this result.	西恩博格：传统。我知道要是我对病人这样做的话，我就会得到某种结果。我也许得到的并不是什么好的结果，但我将会得到这种结果。
10:38	K: So I think that is fairly clear.	克：所以我认为这一点是相当清楚的。
10:41	B: Yes, it's clear enough that we have that... that it's part of our society.	博姆：是的，这一点很清楚，那就是我们有着它它是我们社会的一部分。
10:45	K: Part of our conditioning. B: We want... something secure and permanent. At least we think so.	克：它是我们环境制约的一部分。博姆：我们想要某种安全和永久的东西。至少我们认为它是安全和永久的。
10:55	S: I think that Krishnaji's point about the Eastern world... there is, I think, a feeling in the West of wanting immortality.	西恩博格：我认为这就是克里希那吉对东方世界的看法而我觉得，在西方，人们也会觉得想要永恒不朽。
11:03	K: That's the same. S: Same thing.	克：都是一样的。西恩博格：同一回事。
11:06	B: Wouldn't you say that in so far as... thought can project time that it wants... to be able to project everything... all right in the future as far as possible.	博姆：你会不会觉得在思想所能投射的最远的时间范围内，它会想要尽可能远地投射出一切未来的美好之物。
11:14	S: That's what I meant when I said loneliness: if I don't have to have my loneliness...	西恩博格：这就是当我提到孤单时，我所想要表达的意思：如果我不让我的孤单
11:18	B: In other words the anticipation of what is coming... is already the present feeling. If you can anticipate... that something bad may come, you already feel bad.	博姆：换句话说，对于未来即将到来事物的预感已经成了我当下的感受。要是你预感到一些不好的事情将会发生，你现在就会感觉很糟糕了。
11:28	K: That's right.	克：没错。
11:29	B: Therefore you would like to get rid of that.	博姆：所以你会想要去摆脱它。
11:31	S: So you anticipate that it won't happen.	西恩博格：所以你期待它不会发生。
11:33	B: That it will all be good. S: Right.	博姆：期待一切都会安然无恙。西恩博格：是的。
11:35	B: I would say that security would be the anticipation... that everything will be good in the future.	博姆：我想说，安全感就是期待未来一切事情都会变得很好。
11:39	K: Good. Everything will be all right.	克：变得很好。一切事情都会很好。
11:41	S: It will continue. B: It will become better. If it is not so good now it will become better with certainty.	西恩博格：并且这种情况还会延续下去。博姆：还会变得更好。要是它现在不是那么好，它肯定将会变得更好。
11:46	S: So then security is becoming?	西恩博格：所以，安全感就是‘变成’？
11:50	K: Yes, becoming, perfecting...	克：是的，‘变成’，‘变得完美’
11:54	S: I was thinking what you were saying the other day... about the Brahmin. Anybody can become a Brahmin, then that gives him security.	西恩博格：我想到了前几天你所说的关于婆罗门的东西。任何人都可以变成一个婆罗门，然后这就会给他带来一种安全感。
12:03	K: That is, a projected belief... a projected idea, a comforting satisfying concept.	克：那是一种投射出来的信仰一种投射出来的理念，一个令人满足和感到安慰的概念。
12:16	S: Right. I see patients all the time. Their projected belief is... 'I will become - I will find somebody... to love me'. I see patients who say... 'I will become the chief of the department... I will become the most famous doctor one day, I will become...' and his whole life goes like that. Because it is also all focused on being... the best tennis player, the best... K: Of course, of course.	西恩博格：没错。我时常会见到各种病人。他们所投射出来的信念就是 ‘我将会成为某某某——我将会找到某个爱我的人’。我看到病人说： ‘我将会成为部门的主管有一天，我将会成为最著名的医生，我将会变成……” 而他的一生就是这样度过的。因为他完全专注于去成为最好的网球选手，最好的…… 克：当然了，当然。
12:42	B: It seems it's all focused on anticipating that life is going... to be good, would you say that? K: Yes, life is going to be good.	博姆：看起来所有的注意力都集中在期盼生活将会变得很好。你觉得是这样吗？克：是的，生活将会变得很好。
12:50	B: It seems to me, you wouldn't raise the question... unless you had a lot of experience that life is not so good. It's a reaction to having had so much experience... of disappointment, of suffering.	博姆：在我看来，你之所以提出这样的问题是因为你经历过很多生活的挫折不快。而它是一种在经历了如此多的失望和痛苦之后的反应。
13:04	K: Would you say that we are not... conscious of the whole movement of thought?	克：你会不会觉得，我们并没有察觉到思想的整个运动？
13:13	B: No, I mean, I think that most people would say... that is only very natural, I have had... a lot of experience of suffering... and disappointment and danger, and that is unpleasant and... I would like to be able to anticipate... that everything is going to be good.	博姆：不，我的意思是，我觉得绝大多数人都会说这只不过是一件很自然的事，我曾经经历过很多痛苦失望和危险，这些东西令人不愉快而我想要去期望一切事物都会好起来。
13:29	K: Yes.	克：是的。
13:32	B: At first sight it would seem that that is really quite natural. But you are saying it is not now... there is something deeply wrong with it.	博姆：初看起来，这似乎是非常自然的事情。但现在，你说它并非如此这其中有着某种深层次的错误。
13:39	K: We are saying there is no such thing as psychological security. We have defined what we mean by security.	克：我们在说的是，并不存在诸如心理上的安全这样一个东西。我们已经定义过了我们所说的‘安全’的意思。
13:47	S: Yes.	西恩博格：是的。
13:47	K: We don't have to beat it over and over.	克：我们并不需要一遍遍地去重复它。
13:49	S: No, I think we have got that. B: Yes, but is it clear now... that, you see, these hopes are really vain hopes... that should be obvious, shouldn't it?	西恩博格：不需要，我想我们已经明白了它的意思。博姆：是的，但现在，这一点是否已经清楚了那就是，你知道，这些希望其实都是徒劳无益的这应该是很显然的，不是吗？
13:56	S: That is a good question. You mean is it... Krishnaji, he is raising... a good question, it is this whole business of you saying... is it meaningful to look for security. Is there such a thing?	西恩博格：这是一个很好的问题。你的意思是，它是否克里希那吉，他提出了一个很好的问题，而这也是你所说的全部内容即寻找心理上的安全是否有意义？存在着这样一个东西吗？
14:09	K: Sir, there is death at the end of everything.	克：先生，死亡是一切事物的终点。
14:12	B: Yes.	博姆：是的。
14:15	K: You want to be secure... for the next ten years, that is all, or fifty years. Afterwards it doesn't matter. Or if it does matter then you believe in something. That there is god... you will sit next to god on his right hand... or whatever it is you believe. So I am trying to find out... not only that there is no permanency psychologically... which means no tomorrow psychologically.	克：你想要在接下来的十年或者五十年里得到安全，仅此而已。在这之后，一切都不重要了。或者说，要是在这之后它还是很重要，那么你就会去信仰某些东西。比如存在着一个上帝你将会坐在上帝旁边，坐在他的右手边或者去信仰无论什么东西。所以我在试图去发现的不仅仅是心理上的永久性并不存在 ——这意味着在心理上，不存在明天。
14:45	B: That hasn't yet come out. K: Of course, of course.	博姆：那些还没有发生的事情。克：当然，当然了。
14:49	B: We can say empirically... we know these hopes for security are false... because first of all you say there is death, secondly... you can't count on anything, materially everything changes.	博姆：我们可以凭借经验说我们知道这些对于安全的希望是错误的因为首先，你说了，会有死亡，其次你是无法指望依靠任何东西的，从物质角度来讲，一切事物都会改变。
15:00	K: Everything is in flux.	克：一切事物都在流动变化着。
15:02	B: Mentally everything in your head... is changing all the time. You can't count on your feelings... you can't count on... enjoying a certain thing that you enjoy now... you can't count on being healthy, you can't count on money.	博姆：从精神角度讲，你头脑中的每一样事物一直都在变化中。你不能去指望你的感觉你不能去指望能一直享受某个你此刻正在享受的东西你不能去指望依靠健康，你不能去指望依靠金钱。
15:16	K: And you can't rely on your wife, you can rely on nothing.	克：你也无法依靠你的妻子，你无法依靠任何东西。
15:20	S: Right. B: So that is a fact. But I am saying that you are suggesting something deeper.	西恩博格：没错。博姆：所以这是一个事实。但我说的是，你暗示了一些更为深刻的东西。
15:24	K: Yes.	克：是的。
15:26	B: We don't base ourselves only on that observation.	博姆：我们不会让自己只基于这样的观察。
15:28	K: No, that is very superficial.	克：不会，那种观察是非常肤浅表面的。
15:31	S: Yes, I am with you there.	西恩博格：是的，这一点我赞同你。
15:36	K: So if there is no real security, basic, deep... then is there a tomorrow, psychologically? And then you take away all hope. If there is no tomorrow you take away all hope.	克：所以，如果并不存在真正意义上的安全，那种根本的、深层的安全那么还会有明天——心理上的明天吗？那时你就会移除所有的希望。要是没有明天，你就会拿掉所有的希望。
16:00	B: What you mean by tomorrow, is the tomorrow... in which things will get better?	博姆：你说的明天是什么意思，它是不是指在明天事情将会变得更好？
16:05	K: Better, greater success, greater understanding, greater...	克：变得更好，更大的成功，更好的了解，更好的
16:12	B: More love.	博姆：更多的爱。
16:13	K: ...more love, you know, the whole business.	克：……更多的爱，你知道的，所有这类东西。
16:18	S: That is a little quick, that jump. I think that there is a jump there... because as I hear you, I hear you saying there is no security.	西恩博格：这稍微有点快了，好像跳跃了一步。我觉得这里有一个跳跃因为当我聆听你时，我听到的你的说法是并不存在安全。
16:33	K: But it is so. S: It is so. But for me to say, to really say... 'Look, I know there is no security'.	克：但事实就是如此。西恩博格：它就是如此。但是你要我说，真正地说： ‘瞧，我知道安全并不存在’。
16:43	K: Why don't you say that?	克：你为什么不这么说呢？
16:45	S: That is what I am getting at. Why don't I say that?	西恩博格：这就是我想去搞清楚的东西。为什么我不这么说呢？
16:48	B: Well, isn't it first of all a fact that... just an observed fact that there isn't... anything you can count on psychologically?	博姆：我想说，首先，这难道不是一个事实吗它是一个我们可以观察到的事实，即并不存在任何你可以在心理上依靠的东西？
16:57	S: Right. But you see, I think there is an action there. Krishnaji is saying 'why don't you?'. Why don't you say there is no security? Why don't I?	西恩博格：对。但你看，我认为这里存在着一种行动。克里希那吉在说的是：‘你为什么不这么做？’。为什么你不说‘其实并不存在安全’呢？为什么我不这么说呢？
17:12	K: Can I? May I? Do you rationalise what we are saying about security? Say 'yes', as an idea. Or actually so?	克：我能够吗？我可以吗？你是不是将我们所说的关于安全的内容加以合理化了？把它当成一种思想，然后说‘是这样的’。还是说，它事实上就是如此？
17:32	S: I actually say it is so, but then I say... I'll keep doing it, I'll keep doing it.	西恩博格：我是从事实的角度来说的，它就是如此，然而，之后我会说我要一直这么做。我要一直这么做。
17:37	K: No, no. We are asking... when you hear there is no security... is it an abstract idea? Or an actual fact, like that table... like your hand there, or those flowers?	克：不，不。我们在问的是当你听到有人说‘并不存在安全’的时候这是一种抽象的理念吗？还是说它是一个毋庸置疑的事实，就像这张桌子一样就像你的手，或者这些花一样？
17:57	S: I think it mostly becomes an idea. K: That's just it.	西恩博格：我想它多半已经变成了一种理念。克：正是如此。
18:00	B: Why should it become an idea? K: That's it. Why?	博姆：为什么它要变成一个理念？克：对了。为什么呢？
18:03	S: That I think is the question, why does it become an idea?	西恩博格：我想这就是问题所在，它为什么会变成一个理念？
18:08	K: Is it part of your training?	克：这是不是你们所受到的培养的一部分？
18:11	S: Yes. Part of my conditioning.	西恩博格：是的。它是我所受到的环境制约的一部分。
18:13	K: Part of a real objection to see things as they are.	克：它是我们‘拒绝如实去看待事物’的一部分。
18:19	S: That's right. Because it moves. It feels like it moves there. Do you feel that?	西恩博格：没错。因为它是在变的。我们会觉得它在变化中。你有这样的感觉吗？
18:27	B: It seems that if you see that there is no security... then the self, I mean, it seems... Fist of all, let us try to put it that... there is something which seems to be there... which is trying to protect itself, namely let us say that... it seems to be a fact that the self is there. Do you see what I am driving at?	博姆：看起来似乎是这样的，那就是如果你看到了并不存在安全那么那个‘自我’，我的意思是，似乎首先，让我们来这样说吧那里似乎存在着某个东西它在努力保护着它自己……也就是，先让我们认为自我的存在似乎是一个事实。你明白我想要表达的意思吗？
18:49	K: Of course.	克：当然明白。
18:50	B: And if the self is there it requires security... and therefore this creates a resistance... to accepting that as a fact and puts it as an idea only. If you see what I mean. It seems that... the factuality of the self being there... has not been denied. The apparent factuality.	博姆：而要是自我在那里的话，那么它就会需要安全感因此这就制造出了一种抵抗使得人们不愿接受那个事实，而只是把它当成一个理念。你明白我的意思吗？看起来自我存在的真实性似乎并没有被否定。它显然是真实存在的。
19:13	S: Right. But why hasn't it? Why do you think it hasn't been? What happens?	西恩博格：没错。但为什么它不愿接受那个事实呢？你觉得它为什么一直不接受这个事实？发生了什么呢？
19:20	K: Is it that you refuse to see things as they are? Is it that one refuses to see... that one is stupid? Not you, I mean, one is stupid. To acknowledge that one is stupid is already - you follow?	克：是不是因为你拒绝如实去看待事物？是不是因为某人拒绝看到自己是愚蠢的？不是指你，我的意思是，某人是愚蠢的。而承认自己是愚蠢的，就已经是……——你跟上了吗？
19:39	S: Yes, yes. It's like, you say to me... 'You refuse to acknowledge... that you are stupid' - let us say it is me... - that means then than I have got... to do something, it feels like. K: No.	西恩博格：是的，是的。这就好像是，你对我说： ‘你拒绝承认自己是愚蠢的’——让我们假设就是指我吧那意味着，我就必须要去做一些事情了，它会想要去做一些事情。克：不是这样的。
19:52	S: Something happens to me.	西恩博格：某些事情已经在我身上发生了。
19:54	K: Not yet. Action comes through perception... not through ideation.	克：还没有发生。行动是经由觉察而来的而不是通过理念。
20:03	S: I'm glad you are getting into this.	西恩博格：我很高兴你开始谈到这一点了。
20:08	B: Doesn't it seem that as long as there is the sense of self... the self must say that it is perfect, eternal. Do you see?	博姆：看起来是不是只要还是存在着自我感那么那个自我就必然会说自己是完美的，是永恒的。你看到这一点了吗？
20:15	K: Of course, of course.	克：当然，当然了。
20:18	S: What do you think it is? What makes it so hard to say... Is this what you mean... when you talk about the destruction in creation?	西恩博格：你认为它是什么？是什么使它如此难以开口去说这是不是当你谈到摧毁那些它的产物的时候，你所表达的意思？
20:26	K: Yes.	克：是的。
20:27	S: In other words, is there something here... about the destruction that I am not.	西恩博格：换句话说，这里是不是涉及到了去摧毁那些并非是真实我的东西。
20:31	K: You must destroy that.	克：你必须要去摧毁那些东西。
20:33	S: I must destroy that. Now what makes it hard for me to destroy? I mean, destroy this need for security, why can't I do it?	西恩博格：我必须去摧毁它。那么，是什么让我如此难以去摧毁它？我的意思是，去摧毁这种对安全感的需求，为什么我无法做到它？
20:42	K: No, no. It is not how you can do it. You see, you are already entering... into the realm of action.	克：不，不是。这并不是你要如何去做到它的问题。你看，你已经进入了行动的范畴。
20:48	S: That I think is the crucial point.	西恩博格：我认为它是一个关键点。
20:50	K: But I am not. I say first see it. And from that perception, action is inevitable.	克：但我不是这个意思。我说，首先去看到它。然后从这种觉察中，就必然会产生出行动。
21:01	S: Yes. It's crucial. All right, now. To see insecurity. Do you see insecurity? Do you actually see it?	西恩博格：是的。这一点至关重要。好吧，那么，去看到那种不安全。你看到那种不安全了吗？你是否真的看到了它？
21:16	K: What?	克：看到了什么？
21:17	S: Insecurity. K: Ah, no. Do you actually see...	西恩博格：不安全。克：啊，不是。你有没有真正地看到
21:24	S: ...there is no security.	西恩博格：……并不存在安全。
21:26	K: No, that you are clinging to something... belief and all the rest of it... which gives you security. S: OK.	克：不是，看到你正执著于某些东西信仰和等等此类东西它们带给了你安全感。西恩博格：是的。
21:39	K: I cling to this house. I am safe. It gives me a sense of 'my house, my father'... it gives me pride, it gives me a sense of possession... it gives me a sense of physical... and therefore psychological security.	克：我执著于这个房子。我很安全。它给我带来了这样的感觉，‘我的房子，我的父亲’ 它让我感到骄傲，它带给了我一种占有感它给了我一种物质上的以及由此而产生的心理上的安全感。
22:00	S: Right, and a place to go.	西恩博格：是的，我有家可回。
22:02	K: A place to go. But I may walk out and be killed... and I have lost everything. There might be an earthquake and everything is gone. Do you actually see it?	克：有家可回。但是我也许会走出去，然后死于非命于是我便失去了一切。也许发生了一场地震，然后一切都没了。你有没有真正地看到这一点？
22:26	S: I actually...	西恩博格：我实际上
22:32	K: Sir, go to a poor man. He says, of course... I have no security, but he wants it. He says, 'Well, give me a good job, beer, and constant work... and a house, and a good wife and children; that's my security'.	克：先生，你去找一个穷人。他会说：毫无疑问我没有安全感，但是他渴望它。他说：‘那么，请给我一份好的工作，给我啤酒，让我不停地工作给我一幢房子，一位贤惠漂亮的妻子和一群孩子；这就是我的安全’。
22:54	S: Right.	西恩博格：没错。
22:56	K: When there is a strike, he feels lost. But he has got the Union behind him.	克：然而当他遭遇到打击时，他就会怅然若失了。但是他背后还有着工会联盟。
23:02	S: Right. But he thinks he is secure.	西恩博格：没错。他觉得自己是安全的。
23:05	K: Secure. And that movement of security... enters into the psychological field. My wife, I believe in god, I don't believe in god. If I am a good communist... I will have a good - you follow? The whole thing. Do you see it? You see, the seeing, or the perception of that... is total action with regard to security.	克：他觉得自己安全。然后这种安全感的运动又渗透到了心理领域。我的妻子，我信仰上帝，或者我不信仰上帝。要是我是一名优秀的共产主义者我就会拥有一个很好的——你跟上了吗？所有这些事情。你有没有看到这一点？你瞧，看到或者觉察到它就是你对于安全感所做出的完整的行动。
23:41	S: I can see that that is the total action.	西恩博格：我可以看到那是一种完整的行动。
23:44	K: No, that's an idea still.	克：不，这仍旧是一种理念。
23:46	S: Yes, you're right. I begin to see that... this belief, this whole structure... begins to be the whole way that I see everything in the world. I begin to see her, the wife, or I begin to see these people... they fit into that structure.	西恩博格：是的，你说的没错。我开始发现这种信仰，这整个的结构开始成为我看待这个世界上一切万物的全部方式。我开始以这种方式去看她，看妻子，或者去看其他那些人让他们适合到那个结构中去。
24:18	K: You see them, your wife, through the image you have about them.	克：你是透过你对于他们的意象在看他们，在看你的妻子。
24:24	S: Right. And to the function they are serving.	西恩博格：没错。也包括他们所行使的职责。
24:26	B: Their relation to me, yes. K: Yes.	博姆：他们和我的关系，没错。克：是的。
24:29	S: That's right. That's the function they serve.	西恩博格：没错，那些他们所行使的职责。
24:33	K: The picture, the image, the conclusion is the security.	克：那个形象、那个意象、那个结论，就是安全感。
24:37	S: That's right.	西恩博格：没错。
24:39	B: Yes, but you see, why does it present itself as so real? You see, there is a... I see that as a thought... a process of thought which is driving on, continually.	博姆：是的，但是你看，为什么它将自己呈现得如此真实？你知道，那是一种……我将之视为一种思想一种不断运行着的思想的过程，它在不断地向前。
24:52	K: Are you asking... Why has this image, this conclusion, this... all the rest of it, become so fantastically real?	克：你是不是在问为什么这种意象，这种结论，这种所有那些东西，会变得如此难以置信的真实？
25:01	B: Yes. It seems to be standing there real... and everything is referred to it.	博姆：是的。它似乎是很真实地站立在那里而一切事物都是和它相关的。
25:06	K: More real than the marbles, than the hills.	克：它要比大理石雕像，比山川更加真实。
25:09	B: Than anything, yes. S: More real than anything.	博姆：它要比任何事物都更真实，是的。西恩博格：比任何事物都真实。
25:11	K: Why?	克：为什么会这样呢？
25:21	S: I think it is hard to say why... except that it seems to... because it would give me security.	西恩博格：我认为很难去回答为什么除非它看起来是……因为它会给我安全感。
25:30	K: No, no. We have gone much further than that.	克：不，不。我们所谈的要比这深入多了。
25:32	B: Because, suppose abstractly and as an idea... we can see the whole thing as no security at all... I mean, just looking at it rationally and abstractly.	博姆：因为，假设从抽象的角度，作为一种理念我们看到了这整件事情：即根本不存在安全我的意思是，只是从理性和抽象的角度去看它的话。
25:42	S: That is putting the cart before the horse.	西恩博格：这样就有点本末倒置了。
25:44	B: No, I am just saying that if it were some simple matter... giving that much proof, you would have already accepted it.	博姆：不，我只是在说，要是它是一件很简单的事情能够给出大量证据的话，那么你可能就已经接受它了。
25:52	S: Right.	西恩博格：对。
25:54	B: But when it comes to this, no proof seems to work.	博姆：然而当涉及到这件事情的时候，似乎没有什么有效的证据。
25:57	S: Right. Nothing seems to work.	西恩博格：没错。似乎没有任何有效证据。
25:59	B: Because it seems.. You say all that... but here I am presented with the solid reality... of myself and my security, which seems to deny... there is a sort of reaction which seems to say: well, that may be plausible... but really, it's only words. The real thing is me. Do you see?	博姆：因为它似乎……你说了所有那些东西但是我这里所呈现出来的一个可靠的事实就是我的自我和我的安全感，它们看起来似乎否定了似乎存在着这样一种反应，它在说： ‘啊，那听起来也许貌似有理但实际上，它只不过是一些文字。‘我’才是真实存在的东西。‘你们明白了吗？
26:15	S: But there is more than that. Why it has such potency? I mean why it seems to take on such importance.	西恩博格：但这里还有更多的东西。为什么它会具有如此大的力量？我的意思是为什么它看起来会具有如此的重要性？
26:24	B: Well, may be. But I am saying it seems that the real thing is me... which is all important.	博姆：嗯，也许吧。但我想说的是，看起来那个‘我’是真实存在的而且它相当重要。
26:34	S: There's no question about it. Me, me, me is important.	西恩博格：这是毫无疑问的。重要的就是我、我、我。
26:37	K: Which is an idea.	克：而它只是一个概念。
26:39	B: But it doesn't... we can say abstractly it is an idea. The question is, how do you break into this process?	博姆：但它并不是……我们可以抽象地说它是一个概念。但问题是，你要如何突破障碍而达到这一步呢？
26:46	K: No. I think we can break into it... or break through it, or get beyond it... only through perception.	克：不。我认为要突破障碍达到它要打破它，或者超越它唯一的途径就是通过觉察。
26:59	B: Yes. Because otherwise every thought is involved in that therefore...	博姆：是的。因为否则的话，任何牵涉其中的思想都会
27:05	S: Because I am going to get through it... because it will make me feel better. Right.	西恩博格：因为我会准备去达到它因为这将会使我感觉更好。是的。
27:09	B: The trouble is that all that we have been talking about... is in the form of ideas. They may be correct ideas... but they won't break into this. S: Right.	博姆：困难之处就在于我们之前所谈论的一切它们都是以理念的形式而呈现的。这些想法或许是正确的但人们很难突破障碍而理解它。西恩博格：是的。
27:17	B: Because this dominates the whole of thought.	博姆：因为它支配着所有的思想。
27:19	S: That's right. You could even ask why are we here. We are here because...	西恩博格：没错。你甚至可以问问为什么我们会在这里。我们之所以在这里，是因为
27:23	K: No sir. Look, if I feel... my security lies in some image I have... a picture, a symbol, a conclusion... an ideal and so on, I would... put it not as an abstraction but bring it down. You see, it is so. I believe in something. Actually. Now I say, why do I believe.	克：不，先生。你瞧，要是我感到了我的安全存在于某个我所拥有的意象中存在于某个形象、某个符号、某个结论某个理想等等之中的话，那么我就不会把它只是作为一种抽象概念而提出来，而是会让它脱离抽象概念的范畴。你会发现，就是这么回事。我信仰某个东西。我确实信仰它。而现在，我问自己：为什么我要信仰它？
27:58	B: Well, have you actually done that?	博姆：那么，你有没有真的这样做过呢？
28:00	K: No, I haven't because I have no beliefs. I have no picture... I don't go in for all those kind of games. I said 'if'. S: If, right.	克：不，我没有。因为我没有任何信仰。我心中没有形象我不会去参与所有这类游戏。我说‘如果我信仰……’。西恩博格：‘如果’，好吧。
28:10	K: Then I would bring the abstracted thing into a perceptive reality.	克：那时我就会将抽象的事物转变为一种可感知的真实。
28:24	S: To see my belief, is that it? K: See it.	西恩博格：去看到我的信仰，对吗？克：去看到它。
28:27	S: To see my belief. Right. To see that 'me' in operation.	西恩博格：去看到我的信仰。对。去看到那个‘我’正在运作中。
28:36	K: Yes, if you like to put it that way. Sir, wait a minute. Take a simple thing... Have you a conclusion about something? Conclusion, a concept?	克：是的——要是你喜欢这样表达的话。先生，稍等一下。就拿件简单的事情来讲吧你是否对某个事物有自己的结论？某种结论，一个概念？
28:47	S: Yes. K: Eh?	西恩博格：是的。克：啊？
28:48	S: Yes, I think I do. K: Now, wait a minute. How is that brought about? S: Well, through...	西恩博格：是的，我想我是有的。克：现在，等一等。结论是如何产生的？西恩博格：嗯，它是通过
28:55	K: Take a simple thing, not complicated, take a simple thing. A concept that I am an Englishman.	克：拿件简单的事情来讲，不要把它搞复杂，拿简单的事情来看。比如我持有这样一种观念：即我是一个英国人。
29:05	B: The trouble is that we probably... don't feel attached to those concepts.	博姆：困难就在于我们也许并没有觉得自己依赖执著于这些观念。
29:09	K: All right.	克：没错。
29:12	S: Let's take one that is real for me: take the one about me being a doctor.	西恩博格：让我们拿一个我身上的真实情况来说吧：比如就拿我是一个医生来说。
29:19	K: A concept.	克：这就是一个观念。
29:19	S: That's a concept. That's a conclusion based on training... based on experience, based on the enjoyment of the work.	西恩博格：它是一个观念。它是一个结论，它基于我受到的培养训练基于经验，基于工作所带来的享受。
29:32	K: Which means what? A doctor means, the conclusion means... he is capable of certain activities.	克：这意味着什么？一个医生就意味着，这个结论就意味着他有能力去做某些事情。
29:39	S: Right, OK. Let's take it, concretely.	西恩博格：没错，很好。让我们来具体地看看它。
29:41	K: Concretely. Work at it.	克：具体地看看它。去探究一下它。
29:43	S: So now I have got the fact that there is a concrete fact... that I've had this training... I get this pleasure from the work... I get a kind of feed back... I've got a whole community of feed in. Books I've written, papers, positions.	西恩博格：所以现在我明白了这个事实：即一个确凿的真相就是我已经受过了这种培养训练我从这工作中得到了乐趣我得到了某种回馈我有了一个我可以融入其中的大的群体。那些我写过的书、论文，还有地位。
29:56	K: Move, move.	克：继续，继续下去。
29:57	S: All right. All that. Now, that is my belief. That belief that I am a doctor is based on all that, that concept. OK. Now, I continually act to continue that.	西恩博格：好的。现在，所有这些，这就是我的信仰。那种对于我是一个医生的信仰，就是基于所有这些东西之上的，那种观念。很好。而现在，我持续不断地去行动从而延续它。
30:11	K: Yes, sir, that is understood. S: OK.	克：是的，先生，这是可以理解的。西恩博格：是的。
30:13	K: Therefore you have a conclusion. You have a concept that you are a doctor.	克：因此你有着一个结论。你有着这种观念，即你是一个医生。
30:18	S: Right.	西恩博格：没错。
30:19	K: Because it's based on knowledge, experience, everyday activity.	克：而它是基于知识的，它基于经验和日常的活动。
30:23	S: Right, right. K: Pleasure and all the rest of it.	西恩博格：没错，没错。克：它带来的快感，等等这一切。
30:25	S: Right. K: So what is real in that? What is true in that? Real? S: What do you mean?	西恩博格：是的。克：所以这其中什么是实在的？这其中什么是真实的？实在的东西？西恩博格：你说的是什么意思？
30:34	K: Actual, actual.	克：实际，实际的东西。
30:37	S: Well, that is a good question. What is actual?	西恩博格：嗯，这是一个很好的问题。实际的东西是什么？
30:40	K: No, wait, it's so simple. What is actual in that? Your training.	克：不，等一下，这是很简单的。这其中什么东西是实际的？那就是你受到的培养。
30:43	S: Right.	西恩博格：是的。
30:45	K: Your knowledge. Your daily operation. That's all. The rest is a conclusion.	克：你的知识。你的日常活动。就是这些。其余的就是结论了。
30:53	B: But what is the rest?	博姆：那么其余的东西是什么呢？
30:55	K: The rest: I am much better than somebody else.	克：其余的就是：我要比其他人更加优秀。
31:00	B: Or this thing is going to keep me occupied in a good way.	博姆：或者说这件事可以很好地让我忙个不停。
31:05	K: I will never be lonely. S: Right. I know what's going... to happen to 'X' because I have this knowledge.	克：我永远不会感到孤独。西恩博格：没错。我知道某个人身上将会发生什么情况，因为我有着这方面的知识。
31:11	K: Yes. So?	克：是的。所以？
31:13	B: Well, that is part of it. K: Of course, much more.	博姆：嗯，这是其中的一部分。克：当然了，还有其他更多的。
31:16	S: Yes, go ahead. I want to hear what you...	西恩博格：是的，请继续。我想要听一下你的说法
31:19	B: But isn't there also a certain fear that if I don't have this... then things will be pretty bad.	博姆：但是不是也存在着某种恐惧，那就是如果我没有了它那么事情就会变得相当糟糕了。
31:28	S: Right. OK. B: And that fear seems to spur on...	西恩博格：没错。很好。博姆：而那种恐惧似乎会驱使我
31:33	K: Of course. And if the patients don't turn up?	克：当然了。要是病人没有好转怎么办？
31:37	B: Then I have no money. K: Fear.	博姆：那样我就拿不到钱了。克：恐惧。
31:39	S: Then no activity. K: So loneliness. Back.	西恩博格：那样我就无事可干了。克：我会感到很孤独。一切又回到了从前。
31:43	S: Back again. Right. K: So, be occupied.	西恩博格：又回到了从前。没错。克：因此，我们需要忙碌。
31:47	S: Be occupied doing this, completing this concept. OK?	西恩博格：忙着去做这件事，去完成这个观念。对吧？
31:52	K: Be occupied. S: Right. It's very important! Do you realise how important that is to people, to all... to all people, to be occupied? K: Of course.	克：去忙个不停。西恩博格：是的。这一点非常重要！你有没有意识到对于人们来说，对于所有人来说有事可忙是多么的重要吗？克：当然了。
32:04	S: Do you get the meat of that? K: Of course.	西恩博格：你有没有领会到其中的精髓所在？克：当然领会到了。
32:07	S: How important it is to people to be occupied. I can see them running around.	西恩博格：对于人们来说，有事可忙是多么的重要。我看到人们在四处奔波。
32:13	K: A housewife is occupied. B: Exactly.	克：家庭主妇需要有事可忙。博姆：说的很对。
32:18	K: Remove that occupation, she says, please...	克：要是把她的活儿都拿掉，她就会说：求求你
32:21	B: ...what shall I do?	博姆：……我该干点什么呢？
32:22	S: We have that as a fact. Since we put... electrical equipment into the houses... the women are going crazy... they have got nothing to do with their time.	西恩博格：这是我们的一个事实。自从我们把家用电器放到屋子里以后女人们就发疯了她们有时间，却没事干了。
32:30	K: But, no. The result of this, neglect of their children. Don't talk to me about it!	克：但是，不。这样的结果就是，她们疏于照料自己的孩子了。不要和我讲这类事情了！
32:36	S: (laughs) Right. OK. Let's go on. Now we have got this fact, occupied.	西恩博格：（笑）好的。没问题。让我们继续吧。现在，我们看到了这个事实，即‘忙个不停’。
32:41	K: Occupied. Now... Is this occupation an abstraction, or actuality?	克：忙碌。那么这种忙碌是否是一种抽象概念，还是实际的现状？
32:51	S: This is an actuality. K: Which?	西恩博格：它是一种实际的现状。克：哪一个？
32:53	S: Actuality. I'm actually occupied. K: No.	西恩博格：它是实际的。我实际上就在忙碌着。克：不对。
33:02	B: What is it?	博姆：那它是什么？
33:08	K: You're actually occupied.	克：你确实在忙碌着。
33:10	S: Yes. K: Daily.	西恩博格：是的。克：每天都在忙碌着。
33:11	S: Daily.	西恩博格：每天都在忙。
33:15	B: What do you really mean by occupied? Do you see...	博姆：你所说的‘忙碌’究竟是什么意思？你有没有发现
33:18	S: What do you mean?	西恩博格：那你所说的‘忙碌’是什么意思？
33:20	B: I can say I am actually doing all the operations. That is clear. I am seeing patients as the doctor.	博姆：我可以说我的确是在做着所有那些工作。这是很清楚的。我作为医生，去接待那些病人。
33:25	S: You are going to do your thing.	西恩博格：而你也要去做你的事情。
33:27	B: I am doing my thing, getting my reward and so on. 'Occupied' it seems to me... has a psychological meaning, further than that... that my mind is in that thing in a relatively harmonious way. There was something I saw on television once... of a woman who was highly disturbed... and it showed on the encephalograph... when she was occupied doing arithmetic sums... the encephalograph went beautifully smooth. She stopped doing the sums and it went all over the place. Therefore, she had to keep on doing something... to keep the brain working right.	博姆：我会去做我的事情，得到我的报酬等等。在我看来，‘忙碌’ 还具有一种心理学上的含义，那是更深一层的东西那就是我的头脑会在做事过程中，处于一种相对来说较和谐的状态。有一次，我在电视上看到了某个节目节目讲的是，有一位女性，她非常的焦虑不安而脑电图仪显示当她忙碌于做算术加法时她的脑电图就会变得非常平稳流畅。当她停止做加法时，脑电图就变得起伏不定了。因此，她必须不停地去做一些事情来保持大脑的正常运作。
34:03	K: Which means what?	克：这意味着什么呢？
34:05	S: Go ahead. B: What does it mean?	西恩博格：请继续。博姆：它意味着什么呢？
34:08	K: A mechanical process. S: That's right.	克：一种机械化的过程。西恩博格：没错。
34:13	B: It seems that the brain starts jumping... all over the place unless it has this thing.	博姆：要是没有事做，大脑似乎就会开始东想西想，直到它有事干为止。
34:17	K: A constant... B: ...content.	克：一种持续不断的…… 博姆：……满足。
34:22	K: So you have reduced yourself to a machine.	克：所以你们已经让自己沦为了机器。
34:26	S: Don't say it! (Laughter) No, it's not fair. But it is true. I feel there is a mechanical... K: Responses.	西恩博格：不要这么说吧！（笑声）是的，虽然这并不公平。但它却是千真万确的。我感觉存在着一种机械化的…… 克：反应。
34:38	S: Oh yes, commitment. K: Of course.	西恩博格：噢，是的，承担义务。克：当然了。
34:41	B: But why does the brain... begin to go so wild when it's not occupied?	博姆：但为什么在大脑不忙的时候它就会开始放肆发狂呢？
34:45	S: That's right.	西恩博格：没错。
34:48	B: The brain begins to jump around wildly when it's not occupied. That seems to be a common experience.	博姆：当大脑空下来的时候，它就会开始肆意妄为。这看起来是一种我们共同的经验。
34:53	K: Because in occupation there is security.	克：因为在忙碌中，有着安全感。
34:56	B: There is order. K: Order.	博姆：会有一种秩序。克：秩序。
34:58	S: In occupation there is a kind of mechanical order.	西恩博格：在忙碌中，存在着一种机械化的秩序。
34:59	K: Mechanical order.	克：机械化的秩序。
35:01	B: So we feel our security really... means we want order. Is that right?	博姆：所以我们所感知到的安全感其实意味着我们想要秩序。对吗？
35:04	K: That's it! B: We want order inside the brain. We want to be able to project order into the future, for ever.	克：正是如此！博姆：我们想要大脑内部的秩序。我们想要将这种秩序投射到未来，直至永远。
35:11	K: That's right. S: That's right. Would you say that you can get it by mechanical order?	克：没错。西恩博格：没错。但你认为你可以通过机械化的秩序来得到它吗？
35:15	B: But then we get dissatisfied with it, you say... 'I am getting sick, bored with it, I am sick of this mechanical life... I want something more interesting'.	博姆：然而，当我们不再满足于它的时候，你就会说： ‘我厌烦它，厌倦它了，我讨厌这种机械化的生活我想要一些更有趣的东西’。
35:22	K: That is where the gurus come in! (Laughter)	克：这时候古鲁们就出现了！（笑声）
35:25	B: Then the thing goes wild again. The mechanical order won't satisfy it... because it works for a little while.	博姆：然后事情又再次变得杂乱无章了。机械化的秩序将无法满足它因为机械化秩序的有效期只能持续一会儿。
35:31	S: I don't like the way something is slipping in there. You say that we are going like from one thing to another. I'm looking for satisfaction and then I'm not satisfied.	西恩博格：我不太喜欢这种某个东西悄然出现的说法。你说我们喜欢从一件事情转到另一件事情。我在寻找着满足，然后我又会感到不满足。
35:41	B: I am looking for some regular order which is good. And I think that by my job as a doctor I am getting it.	博姆：我在寻找着某种良好且固定的秩序。我认为通过我医生的工作，我就得到了这种秩序。
35:48	S: Yes.	西恩博格：是的。
35:50	B: But after a while I begin to feel it is... too repetitious, I'm getting bored.	博姆：但是没过多久，我就开始觉得它太过单调重复，我变得厌倦它了。
35:54	S: OK. But suppose that doesn't happen. Suppose some people become satisfied with mechanical order.	西恩博格：好的。但是假设这并没有发生。假设某人满足于这种机械化的秩序。
35:59	B: They don't really. Then they become dull.	博姆：他们并不会真正地满足。那样他们就会变得单调乏味。
36:01	K: Quite. Mechanical; so mechanical they don't and you stop that mechanism... the brain goes wild. S: That's right.	克：完全正确。机械化，太机械化了，所以他们不会于是你停止了这种机械化而大脑又变得杂乱无章了。西恩博格：没错。
36:08	B: So they may feel they are a bit dull and they would like... some entertainment... or something more interesting and exciting. And therefore there is a contradiction... there is conflict and confusion... in the whole thing. Take this woman who could always get... everything right by doing arithmetical sums... but you can't keep on doing arithmetic sums! (Laughter) I mean somewhere she has got to stop... doing these arithmetical sums. S: Right.	博姆：所以他们也许会觉得自己有点单调乏味了，于是他们想要一些娱乐消遣或者某些更加有趣和刺激的东西。由此便有了一种矛盾冲突和困惑存在于这整件事中。就拿那个女人来举个例子吧，她可以通过做算术加法来让一切都变得平稳正常但你不可能一直不停地做算术加法！（笑声）我的意思是她肯定会在某个时候停下来不再做那些算术加法了。西恩博格：是的。
36:41	B: Then her brain will go wild again.	博姆：然后她的大脑又会变得杂乱无章了。
36:43	K: He is asking what is disturbing him. He feels he hasn't put his teeth into it. What is disturbing him?	克：他在问的是：是什么东西在干扰着他？他觉得自己并没有允许这些东西发挥作用。那么是什么在干扰着他呢？
36:53	S: You're right. K: What is disturbing you?	西恩博格：你说的没错。克：是什么在干扰着你？
36:56	S: Well, it is this feeling that, people will say that...	西恩博格：嗯，我的感觉是这样的，人们会说
37:01	K: No, you say, you. S: I will say, let's say... I can get this order, I can get this mechanical order, and I can.	克：不，是你说，是你。西恩博格：我会说，比如说我可以获得这种秩序，我可以获得这种机械化的秩序，我是可以的。
37:09	K: Yes, you can.	克：是的，你可以。
37:10	S: From occupying myself in something I like.	西恩博格：通过让我自己忙碌于某些我所喜爱的事情。
37:13	K: Go on. Proceed.	克：继续，接着说下去。
37:14	S: I can do it. I can do something I like... and it gets boring, let's say, or it might get repetitious... but then I will find new parts of it. And then I'll do that some more... because that gives me a pleasure. I get a satisfaction out of it. So I keep doing more of that. It's like an accumulative process.	西恩博格：我是可以这样做的。我可以去做一些我喜欢的事情然后这件事变得令人厌倦了，比方说吧，或者它会变得单调重复但接下来，我又会发现它的一些新的部分。于是我会进入到那个部分中，去做那些事情因为那些事情带给了我快感。我从中得到了满足。所以我会不停地，更多地去做它。这就像是一个不断积累的过程。
37:34	K: No, you move from one mechanical process... get bored with it, and move to another mechanical process... get bored with it and keep going. And you call that living! S: That's right. That's it! That's what I call living.	克：不是的，你离开了某个机械化的过程因为你厌烦它了，然后你又进入到了另一个机械化的过程中而你也会厌倦它，就这样不断继续下去。而你就把这称之为生活！西恩博格：没错。正是如此！这就是我所谓的生活。
37:49	B: The trouble in it, even if I accept all that... is that I now try to be sure that I can keep on doing this... because I can always anticipate a future... when I won't be able to do it. You see? I will be a bit too old for the job... or else I'll fail. I'll lose the job... In other words, I still have insecurity in that order.	博姆：这其中的问题就在于，即使我接受了这一切我现在试图去确保我可以一直做这件事因为我总是可以预料到未来有一天我将无法再做它了。你明白吗？我会因为年纪太大而做不了这工作或者说我会无力胜任它。我将会失去这份工作换句话说，在那种秩序中，我仍旧有着不安全感。
38:09	K: Essentially, essentially it is mechanical disorder.	克：本质上，本质上来说，它是一种机械化的失序。
38:17	S: Masking itself as order. K: Order. Now, wait a minute. Do you see this? Or is it still an abstraction? Because, you know, idea... as Dr. Bohm will tell you, idea means 'observation'... the root meaning, observation. Do you observe this?	西恩博格：它将自己伪装成秩序。克：秩序。现在，请稍等一下。你们看到这一点了吗？还是说它仍旧是一种抽象观念？因为你知道，观念就如博姆博士告诉你的，观念意味着‘观察’ 它的词根意思就是‘观察’。你是否观察到了它？
38:58	S: I see that, yes. I feel that I… I think I see... Oh, no. I see that. What I see actually is, I see this... a movement that goes on doing this... very much like Piaget's theory... there is assimilation, an accommodation... and then there is seeing of what doesn't fit... and going on with it. And then there is more assimilation... and accommodation and going on with it. The psychologist, Piaget, the French psychologist... describes this as the normative of human brains.	西恩博格：我看到了它，是的。我觉得我我想我是看到了……噢，不是。我看到了它。我真正看到的是，我看到了它有这样一种运动，它在持续不停地做着这件事这和皮亚杰的理论很相似存在着一种同化和调节适应然后你看到了那些不适合的地方于是你会继续去调节适应。然后就会有更多的同化和调节适应，然后你会继续去重复那个过程。心理学家皮亚杰，他是一位法国的心理学家他将这描述为是人类大脑的规范标准。
39:36	K: Yes, yes. S: You know this.	克：是的，是的。西恩博格：你也知道这个。
39:40	K: I don't have to read Piaget, I can observe it.	克：我不需要去读什么皮亚杰，我自己可以观察到它。
39:43	B: Then the point is... Are you driven to this because... you're frightened of the instability of the brain? That would mean being occupied with this. And it seems then that is disorder. If you are doing something... because you are trying to run away from instability... of the brain, that is already disorder.	博姆：那么重点就在于你之所以会被驱使着去这样做，是不是因为你害怕大脑的不安定性？那就是你要忙个不停的意义所在。因此，它看起来像是一种失序。要是你做某些事情是因为你想要试图逃离这种大脑的不安定性的话，那么这就已经是失序了。
40:05	S: Yes, yes.	西恩博格：是的，是的。
40:06	B: In other words, that will merely be masking disorder.	博姆：换句话说，那仅仅是一种将自己伪装起来的失序。
40:09	S: Yes. Then you are suggesting that this is being... the natural disorder of the brain. Are you suggesting a natural disorder?	西恩博格：是的。所以你是不是在暗示着它就是大脑的天生具有的失序。你是不是在暗示那种天生的失序？
40:16	B: No, I'm saying that the brain seems to be disordered. This seems to be a fact. Right? That the brain without occupation... tends to go into disorder.	博姆：不，我说的是大脑似乎是失序的。这似乎是一个事实。对吗？那就是如果大脑无事可忙的话它就很容易变得失序。
40:25	S: Without the mechanics we get this. That's what we know, without the mechanics.	西恩博格：没有了那种机械化，我们就会变得失序。这就是我们所知道的，如果我们没有了那种机械化。
40:29	K: So that's frightened of it.	克：所以我们害怕它。
40:31	B: Well, it's dangerous actually because one feels that... if it keeps doing this, you don't know what's going to happen.	博姆：我想说，这事实上很危险，因为我们会觉得要是它持续这样下去的话，你不知道将会发生些什么。
40:36	K: Of course it's dangerous.	克：当然了，它是很危险的。
40:38	B: I mean I may do all sorts of crazy things.	博姆：我的意思是，我也许会去做各种疯狂的事情。
40:41	K: Yes. All the neurotics, you know all that business.	克：是的。所有那些神经病的事情，你们知道所有这些东西。
40:45	B: I feel that the main danger comes from within.	博姆：我觉得主要的危险还是来自于内在的。
40:49	K: Absolutely. Now, when you see it, observe it... there is action, which is not fragmented.	克：完全正确。然而，当你看它，观察它的时候就会有行动产生，这种行动不是支离破碎的。
41:08	B: One can feel that you don't know... whether this disorder can stop. If you were sure... that it could stop, that religion... that god will take care of it, or something... then you will have security. K: Quite.	博姆：我们会觉得，那就是你并不知道这种失序是否可以停止。要是你能够确信它会停止，比如宗教上帝将会去处理它，等等那么你就会感到安全了。克：没错。
41:23	B: That god will give you eternal bliss.	博姆：上帝将会赐予你永恒的祝福。
41:28	S: You don't feel that… you don't feel that you can depend on anything.	西恩博格：你会感到自己无法你会感到自己无法去依赖于任何东西。
41:32	B: Nothing can control that disorder. This really seems to be the thing... that there is nothing that can control that disorder. You may take pills, or do various things... but it's always there in the background.	博姆：没有什么东西可以控制那种失序。这看起来似乎就是真正的要点那就是没有什么东西可以控制那种失序。你也许可以吃几个药片，或者去做各种事情但是它总是在这一切的背后存在着。
41:44	S: Right. K: Quite right.	西恩博格：对。克：说的很对。
41:47	B: I don't know whether we should say, one question is... why do we have this disorder? If it were built into the structure... of the brain, seeing this is human nature... then there would be no way out.	博姆：我不知道我们是否可以这样说，有一个问题就是为什么我们会有这种失序？这种失序是否是根植于大脑的结构中的，要是我们发现这是人类的自然本性那么就没有什么出路了。
42:00	K: No, sir. I think the disorder arises... first when we are mechanical processes going on. And in that mechanical process the brain feels secure... and when that mechanical process.. is disturbed, it becomes insecure.	克：不，先生。我认为失序之所以会产生首先是因为我们自身机械化的过程在持续进行着。在那种机械化的过程中，大脑会感觉安全而当那种机械化的过程受到干扰后，它就会感到不安全。
42:21	S: Then it does it again.	西恩博格：于是它会再次去重复那样的事。
42:23	K: Again, and again, and again.	克：一次又一次地去重复。
42:25	S: It never stays with that insecurity.	西恩博格：它永远不肯和那种不安全感同在。
42:27	K: No, no. When it perceives this process is still mechanical... and therefore disorder.	克：不，不是。当它去看的时候，这个过程仍旧是机械化的因此还是会有失序。
42:39	B: The question is why does the brain get caught in mechanism? In other words, it seems in the situation... the brain gets caught in mechanical process.	博姆：问题在于为什么大脑会陷入于机械化之中？换句话说，我们会看到这种情况那就是大脑会陷入于机械化的过程中。
42:47	K: Because it is the safest, the most secure way of living.	克：因为那是最安全的、最保险的生活方式。
42:50	B: Well, it appears that way. But it's actually very...	博姆：嗯，它看起来好像是这样。但它实际上非常
42:53	K: Not appears. It is so for the time being.	克：不是看起来。目前来说，它就是如此。
42:55	B: For the time being, but in the long run it's not.	博姆：目前来说，但是从长远来看，它并非如此。
42:57	K: Ah, in the long run…	克：啊，从长远来看
42:58	S: Are you saying we are time bound...	西恩博格：你是不是在说，我们是被时间所制约的
43:04	K: Conditioned to be time bound, conditioned by our tradition... by our education, by the culture we live in and so on... to operate mechanically. S: We take the easy way.	克：我们被时间所制约，被我们的传统所制约被我们的教育，被我们所生活于其中的文化等等所制约我们被制约着去机械化地运作。西恩博格：我们选择了轻松的方式。
43:16	K: The easy way.	克：轻松的方式。
43:18	B: But it's also a kind of mistake to say... let's say in the beginning... the mechanical way shows signs of being safer... and at the beginning... the brain makes a mistake and says 'This is safer'... but then somehow it fails to be able... to see that it has made a mistake... it holds to this mistake. In the beginning you might call it... an innocent mistake to say... 'This look safer and I will follow it'. But then after a while... you are getting evidence that it's not so safe... but the brain begins to reject it, keep away from it.	博姆：但它同样也犯了一个错误，它说打个比方，在开始的时候那种机械化的方式展现出了那种‘更为安全’的迹象在开始的时候大脑犯了一个错误，它说：‘这是更安全的’ 但之后，不知怎么地，它无法看到自己已经犯了错误它坚守着这个错误。在开始的时候，你也许会把它称为是天真的错误——因为它说： ‘这看起来更加安全，我将会跟随它’。但是过了没多久你会看到一些迹象，证明它并不是那么安全但是大脑会开始去抗拒它，远离它。
43:52	S: Well, I think you could raise the issue whether there aren't... certain given facts in child rearing. I mean when the mother feels... the baby is crying and she jams a nipple in its mouth... that's teaching the baby... that you shut up and take the easy way out.	西恩博格：嗯，我认为你可以提出这个争论点，即在抚养小孩的过程中，是否存在着某些既定的事实。我的意思是，当母亲感到小孩子在哭泣时，她就会把奶头塞进他的嘴里这就是在教导孩子请闭上嘴，然后选择这种轻松容易的方式。
44:09	K: Poor baby. (laughs) That is only the mothers who don't want babies... when they jam in the nipples.	克：可怜的孩子。（笑）那些母亲只是不想要孩子去所以她们将奶头塞进他嘴里。
44:18	B: I meant that's part of the conditioning which explains... how it is propagated. But it still doesn't explain... why the brain doesn't see at some stage that it's wrong.	博姆：我的意思是，这只是制约中的一部分，它解释了那种事情是如何繁衍遗传下来的。但它仍旧没有解释为什么大脑没有在某些阶段看到自身的错误。
44:32	S: Why doesn't it see at some stage that it's wrong?	西恩博格：为什么它没能在某个阶段看到自己的错误？
44:36	B: In other words, it continues in this mechanical process... rather than seeing that it's wrong.	博姆：换句话说，它宁可持续不断地处于这种机械化的过程中也不愿去看到自己的错误。
44:41	K: You are asking, why doesn't it see that this... mechanical process is essentially disorder.	克：你在问的是，为什么它没有看到这种机械化的过程本质上是一种失序？
44:48	B: It's disorder and dangerous.	博姆：它是失序的，危险的。
44:50	K: Dangerous.	克：危险的。
44:51	B: It's complete delusion. Its security is totally delusory.	博姆：它完全是错觉。它的安全是彻底虚妄的。
44:56	S: Why isn't there some sort of feedback? In other words... I do something and it comes out wrong. At some point I ought to realise that. For instance I have seen my life is mechanical.	西恩博格：为什么会没有产生某种反馈？换句话说我做了某件事情，结果这件事是错误的。在某个时间点，我应该会意识到这一点。举个例子，我会看到自己的生活是机械化的。
45:10	K: Now, wait. You see it? S: But I don't.	克：现在，请等一下。你看到它了吗？西恩博格：我没有。
45:13	K: Wait. Why is it mechanical?	克：等一下，那么为什么它是机械化的？
45:20	S: Well, it is mechanical because it goes... like this, it is all action and reaction.	西恩博格：呃，它之所以机械化是因为它以这样的方式在运作着，它完全就是行动和反应。
45:28	K: Why is it mechanical?	克：它为什么是机械化的？
45:32	S: It's repetitious.	西恩博格：因为它是重复的。
45:33	K: Yes, which is mechanical. S: Which is mechanical. I want it to be easy. That is also mechanical. I want it to be easy. I feel that that gives me the most security, to keep it mechanical. I get a boundary. I know it's like you say I have the house... I have got my mechanical life, that gives me security... it's mechanical because it's repetitious.	克：是的，那种重复就是机械化的。西恩博格：它是机械化的。我想要它变得轻松容易一些。这同样也是机械化的。我希望它是轻松容易的。我觉得那带给了我最大的安全感，去维持它的机械化。我有了一个边界。我知道它就像你所说的，我有一个房子我有着自己机械化的生活，它给了我安全感它之所以是机械化的，是因为它是重复的。
46:02	K: But you haven't answered my question.	克：但是你还没有回答我的问题。
46:04	S: I know I haven't! It's mechanical. I'm not sure what your question is. Your question is why...	西恩博格：我知道我没有！它是机械化的。我不太确定你的问题是什么。你的问题是为什么
46:13	K: ...has it become mechanical. S: Why has it become mechanical?	克：……它会变得机械化？西恩博格：为什么它会变得机械化？
46:16	B: Why does it remain mechanical?	博姆：为什么它会一直保持机械化？
46:18	K: Why does it become and remain mechanical?	克：为什么它会变得机械化，并且一直保持机械化？
46:21	S: I think it remains mechanical, it is the thing we began with.	西恩博格：我认为它之所以会一直保持机械化，这就是我们一开始所讲的东西。
46:27	K: Ah, no, you are not... If you pursue it. Why does it remain mechanical?	克：啊，不，你并没有……你要去将它探究到底。为什么它会一直保持机械化？
46:33	S: I don't see it's mechanical.	西恩博格：因为我并没有看到它的机械化。
46:37	K: What has caused us to accept this mechanical way of living?	克：是什么导致了我们接受了这种机械化的生活方式？
46:46	S: I am not sure I can answer that. The feel of it is that I would see the insecurity, I would see.	西恩博格：我没有把握回答这个问题。我对此的感觉就是我会看到那种不安全，我会看到
46:53	K: No, look. Wouldn't you be frightened if there was no…	克：不，请注意。你是不是会害怕没有
46:58	S: I would see the uncertainty.	西恩博格：我会看到那种不确定性。
47:00	K: No, no. If the mechanical process... of life that one lives suddenly stopped... wouldn't you be frightened? S: Yes.	克：不是，不是。如果我们机械化的生活过程突然停止了你难道不会感到害怕吗？西恩博格：我会。
47:09	B: Wouldn't there be some genuine danger?	博姆：那样的话，是不是会产生一些真正的危险？
47:12	K: That, of course. There is a danger that things might...	克：这是当然的。会有一种危险，那就是事物或许会
47:16	B: ...go to pieces. K: ...to pieces.	博姆：……崩溃瓦解。克：……崩溃瓦解。
47:21	S: Well, it is deeper than that. K: Wait! Find out, come on.	西恩博格：呃，这种危险要比这更深层一些。克：等等！去把它搞清楚，一起来吧。
47:24	S: It is not just that there is a genuine... danger that I would be frightened. It feels like that things take on a terribly... moment-by-moment effect.	西恩博格：我所害怕的并不仅仅是那种真正的危险。我的感觉是，事情会很可怕地时时刻刻地带来那种结果。
47:35	K: No. Look. Would total order... give it complete security? Wouldn't it? Total order. S: Right.	克：不。请注意。那种完全的秩序能够给它带来彻底的安全吗？可以吗？完全的秩序。西恩博格：嗯。
47:55	K: The brain wants total order. S: Right.	克：大脑想要完全的秩序。西恩博格：没错。
47:58	K: Otherwise it can't function properly. Therefore it accepts the mechanical... and hoping it won't lead to disaster.	克：否则的话，大脑就无法适当正确地运作了。因此，它接受了那种机械化的希望它不会导致灾难不幸。
48:09	S: Right.	西恩博格：是的。
48:10	K: Hoping it will find order in that.	克：它希望自己能够在其中找到秩序。
48:12	B: Could you say that... perhaps in the beginning the brain accepted this... just simply not knowing... that this mechanism would bring disorder... and it just went into it by an innocent state?	博姆：你是不是可以说也许在开始的时候，大脑接受了它只是因为不知道这种机械化将会带来失序它只是天真单纯地陷入了其中？
48:22	K: Yes.	克：是的。
48:23	B: But then later... K: ...caught in a trap.	博姆：但是后来…… 克：……它就落入陷阱中了。
48:25	B: It's caught in a trap. And somehow it maintains this disorder... it doesn't want to get out of it.	博姆：它落入陷阱中了。它不知何故维持着这种失序它并不想要脱离它。
48:31	K: Because it's frightened of greater disorder.	克：因为它害怕产生更大的混乱失序。
48:33	B: Yes. It says... 'All that I've built up may go to pieces'. In other words... I'm not in the same situation... as when I first went in the trap because... now I have built up a great structure. I think that structure will go to pieces.	博姆：是的。它说： ‘所有那些我建立起来的东西也许会崩溃瓦解’。换句话说我的境况已经不同了不再是一开始陷入陷阱时的那个状态，因为现在我已经建立起了一个强大的结构。而我觉得这个结构可能会崩溃瓦解。
48:46	S: That's right. I heard one man... - I nearly jumped out of my seat... I heard one man say to another... to one of his colleagues, he says... 'I have just published my thirteenth book'. He said it just like that! (Laughter) The way he said it was desperate.	西恩博格：没错。我曾经听到一个人说 ——我差点被吓得跳离座椅我听到这个人对另一个人说他对他的一位同事说： ‘我刚刚出版了我的第十三本书’。他是像我这样子说的！（笑）他说这话的时候非常疯狂极端。
49:02	K: No sir, what I am trying to get at is... the brain needs this order... otherwise it can't function. It finds order in mechanical process... because it's trained from childhood... do as you are told, etc. There is a conditioning going on right away... to live a mechanical life.	克：不，先生，我试图表达的意思是大脑需要这种秩序否则的话，它就无法运作。它在机械化的过程中找到了秩序因为它从小就受到了这样的培养： ‘按照我们告诉你的那样去做’，等等。某种制约立刻就会发生让你去过那种机械化的生活。
49:26	S: Right.	西恩博格：没错。
49:28	B: As also the fear induced of giving up... this mechanism at the same time.	博姆：与此同时，也诱发了某种恐惧：那就是不敢去放弃这种机械化的运作。
49:31	K: Of course.	克：当然了。
49:32	B: I mean that you are thinking all the time that without this... everything will go to pieces, including especially the brain.	博姆：我的意思是你一直都在想着，要是没有了它一切都会崩溃瓦解，特别是大脑。
49:39	K: Brain, yes. And so they break from... this mechanical business and join communities... you know, all the process, which is still mechanical.	克：大脑，是的。所以他们挣脱了这种机械化的东西，然后加入了各种团体你们知道所有这些过程，但它仍旧是机械化的。
49:51	S: Right, right.	西恩博格：对，对。
49:54	K: Which means the brain must have order. And finds order in a mechanical way. Now, do I see, do you see actually... the mechanical way of living leads to disorder? Which is tradition. If I live entirely in the past, which is very orderly... I think it is very orderly, and what takes place? I'm already dead... and I can't meet anything. S: I'm repeating myself always.	克：这表明大脑必须要拥有秩序。它需要在一种机械化的方式中找到秩序。那么，我是否看到了？你们是否真正地看到了机械化的生活方式将会导致失序？机械化的生活方式就是那些传统。要是我完全生活在过去中——那是非常有序的我认为它是非常有序的，那么会发生什么？我就已经死了我无法去面对处理任何事物了。西恩博格：我会一直重复我自己。
50:54	K: So please don't disturb my tradition. The communists say that... the Catholics say that - you follow? The same thing! And every human being... says, 'Please, I have found something... which gives me order: a belief, a hope, this or that... and leave me alone.' S: Right.	克：所以请不要来打扰我的传统。共产主义者会这样说天主教徒也会这么说——你们跟上了吗？都是一样的！每一个人都会说： ‘拜托，我已经找到了一些能够给我带来秩序的东西：某种信仰，某个希望，这个或那个所以请不要来打扰我了。’ 西恩博格：没错。
51:16	K: And life isn't going to leave them alone. So he gets frightened... and establishes another mechanical habit. Now, do you see this whole thing? And therefore an instant action... breaking it all away and therefore order. The brain that says, 'at last I have an order... which is absolutely indestructible.'	克：然而生活并不会让他们安静无干扰。他感到害怕于是便去建立了另一个机械化的习惯。所以，你们是否看到了这整件事情？从而产生出立即的行动去打破结束这一切，从而带来秩序。那时大脑会说：‘我终于有了一种秩序那种绝不会被摧毁的秩序。”
51:58	B: Well, I think it doesn't follow from what you said... that this will happen. K: Of course.	博姆：不过，我认为虽然你说将会发生这样的事，但这并不好理解。克：当然了。
52:02	B: In other words, you are saying this.	博姆：换句话说，你只是说了这样一件事情。
52:04	K: I am saying it.	克：我说了这样一件事情。
52:06	B: But it doesn't follow logically.	博姆：但它很难从逻辑上去理解。
52:10	K: It will follow logically if you go into it.	克：要是你去探究它的话，它是合乎逻辑的。
52:12	B: If we go into it. Can we reach a point... where it really follows necessarily?	博姆：要是我们探究它的话。我们能否达到那个必然能够真正了解它的点？
52:18	K: I think we can only go into it... if you perceive the mechanical security... which the brain has developed, attached and cultivated.	克：我认为如果我们想要去探究它就必须觉察到那种机械化的安全感那种大脑所发展、培养、并且执著依赖的机械化的安全感。
52:33	S: Can I share with you something... as you are talking, I find myself... I see it in a certain way though, I see it like this... don't get impatient with me too quickly! I see it this way... I can see the mechanicalness. Right? And I see that I see... and I was flashing through my mind... various kinds of interchanges... between people. And the way they talk... they way I talk to them at a party... at a cocktail party, and it's all about what happened before.	西恩博格：我能够和你分享一些东西吗？当你在谈话的时候，我发现我自己我以某种方式去看待这件事，虽然我是这样来看待它的请不要马上对我感到不耐烦！我是这样来看待它的我可以看到那种机械化。对吗？我看到，那就是我发现我的脑海中闪过了各种人与人之间的交互以及他们讲话的方式以及在派对上，在一次鸡尾酒派对上，我与他们的对话方式而所谈的东西全都是从前发生的事情。
53:09	K: Quite, quite.	克：没错，没错。
53:10	S: You can see them telling you who they are... in terms of their past.	西恩博格：你会发现他们在告诉你自己是谁关于他们的过去。
53:15	K: What they will be. S: What they will be. This guy I just described to you, who said... 'I did my thirteenth book'... he said it like that. It is very important... that I get that information. And I see this elaborate structure. This guy has got in his head that... I'm going to think this about him... and then he is going to go... to his university and he is going to be thought that. He is always living like that and the whole structure is elaborate.	克：他们将会成为什么。西恩博格：他们将会成为什么。我刚刚已经向你描述了那个家伙，他说： ‘我完成了我的第十三本书’ 他就是像这样说这话的。这太重要了我得到了这个信息。我看到了这个精心营造的复杂结构。这个家伙脑子里想的是我将会记得他的这件事然后当他去了他的大学以后，人们就会想起他的事迹。他一直都是这样生活，而这整个结构是非常复杂精巧的。
53:41	K: Are you doing that?	克：你是不是也在这样做？
53:56	S: When did you stop beating your wife! (laughs) Of course I am doing it. I am doing it right now! I am seeing... the structure right now, all this, I am!	西恩博格：你什么时候可以不再打你的老婆了！（笑声）当然了，我也在这样做。我现在就在这样做！我现在就在看着这个结构，我就是这一切！
54:11	K: But do you see that we were saying yesterday... fragmentary action is mechanical action.	克：但你是否明白了我们昨天所说的东西即碎片化的行动就是机械化的行动。
54:19	S: That's right. It's there, Krishnaji. It's there, that's the way we are.	西恩博格：没错。它存在着，克里希那吉。它就在那里，这就是我们的模样。
54:24	K: And therefore political action can never solve any problems... human problems, or the scientist, as a fragment.	克：因此政治上的行动永远无法解决任何问题无法解决人类的问题，科学家也无法解决，因为他也是一个碎片。
54:36	S: Do you realise what you are saying? Let's really look at what you are saying. This is the way it is. This is the way life is!	西恩博格：你有没有意识到自己在说什么？让我们好好地来看一下你所说的东西吧。它就是这样。我们的生活就是这样！
54:42	K: Right.	克：没错。
54:43	S: Right? This is the way it is. Years and years and years.	西恩博格：对吧？它就是这样。年复一年，年复一年。
54:48	K: Therefore, why don't you change it?	克：所以，你为什么不去改变它呢？
54:54	S: That's right. But this is the way it is. We live in terms of our structures. We live in terms of our histories. We live in terms of our mechanics. We live in terms of our form. This is the way we live!	西恩博格：你说的没错。但它就是这样。我们依照我们的结构来生活。我们依照我们的历史来生活。我们依照我们的机械化来生活。我们依照我们的各种形式来生活。这就是我们的生活方式！
55:06	K: As we were saying at Ojai... when the past meets the present... and ends there, a totally different thing takes place.	克：就像我们在欧亥的时候说过的当过去与当下交汇并且在当下结束时，就会有截然不同的事情发生。
55:21	S: Yes. But the past doesn't meet the present so often.	西恩博格：是的，但过去并不是经常与当下交汇。
55:27	K: This is taking place now!	克：它现在就在发生着！
55:29	S: Now it's coming, right now. We are seeing it now.	西恩博格：现在，它出现了，就在此刻。我们现在就能看到它。
55:34	K: Therefore can you stop there? S: We must see it totally.	克：所以，你能够就在那里停止吗？西恩博格：我们必须要看到它的整体。
55:38	K: No. The fact, simple fact. The past meets the present. That's a fact.	克：不。看到那个事实，那个简单的事实。过去会与当下交汇。这是一个事实。
55:48	B: How does the past meet the present? Let us go into that.	博姆：过去是如何与当下交汇的？让我们来讨论一下它吧。
55:51	K: We have got four minutes.	克：我们只剩下四分钟了。
55:52	S: How do you say the past meets the present? We've got two minutes now! (laughs)	西恩博格：你是怎么理解过去与当下的交汇的？我们现在只剩两分钟了！（笑）
56:06	B: Well, I think that the past meeting the present stops... the past is generally active in the present towards the future. Now, when the past meets the present then... the past stops acting. And what it means is that... thought stops acting so that order comes about.	博姆：嗯，我认为过去与当下交汇了，它停留在那里过去通常都会在当下活跃起来，然后朝向未来。而现在，当过去与当下交汇时过去停止了活动。而它就意味着思想停止了活动，由此秩序便产生了。
56:35	S: Do you think that the past meets the present... or the present meets the past?	西恩博格：你认为是过去与当下交汇还是当下遭遇了过去？
56:39	K: No. How do you meet me? S: I meet you in the present.	克：不是的。你是如何见我的？西恩博格：我在此刻见到了你。
56:45	K: No. How do you meet me? With all the memories, all the images... the reputation, the words, the pictures, the symbol, all that... with that which is the past, you meet me now.	克：不。你是以何种方式见我的？你是带着所有的记忆、所有的意象那些名声、文字、形象、符号，所有这些带着这些过去的东西，你与此刻的我相遇。
57:02	S: That's right. I come to you with a comfort...	西恩博格：没错。我来到你这，是带着一种安慰
57:05	K: No, no. The past is meeting the present.	克：不，不是。过去与当下交汇了。
57:11	B: Aren't you saying that the past... S: That's right, go ahead.	博姆：你是不是在说那个过去…… 西恩博格：没问题，你继续。
57:15	B: That the past should stop meeting the present?	博姆：那个过去应当停止与当下交汇？
57:17	S: No. He is not saying that. You can't say that!	西恩博格：不。他说的不是这个。你不能这么说！
57:20	K: I'm saying something, he's right...	克：我说的就是这些东西，他是对的
57:22	S: (Laughs) I know but let him say it.	西恩博格：（笑）我知道，那就让他说吧。
57:25	K: What I'm trying to say is that the past meets the present.	克：我所试图表达的是，过去会与当下交汇。
57:29	S: And then?	西恩博格：然后呢？
57:30	K: Can the past end there? Not move forward.	克：过去能否就在那里结束？而不要继续向前。
57:34	S: Can it? But is that the right question? What is the past meeting the present? What is that action?	西恩博格：它可以吗？然而，这是一个正确的问题吗？过去与当下交汇是什么意思？那种行动是什么？
57:44	K: I meet you with a picture. S: Why should I stop?	克：我是带着某种意象来见你的。西恩博格：但为什么我要让它停止呢？
57:49	K: I will show it to you. I meet you with the past, my memories... but you might have changed all that in the meantime. So I never meet you. I meet you with the past. S: Right. That's a fact.	克：我会来告诉你的。我是带着过去来见你的，带着我的记忆然而在此期间，你或许已经有了很大的改变。所以我永远无法‘见到’你。我是带着过去来看你的。西恩博格：对。这是一个事实。
58:09	K: That's a fact. Now if I don't have that movement going on...	克：这是一个事实。现在，要是我不让这种运动继续下去
58:16	S: But I do. K: Of course, you do. But I say that is disorder. I can't meet you then.	西恩博格：但是我会这么做的。克：你当然会这么做了。但是我说那是一种混乱失序。那样的话，我就无法‘见到’你了。
58:24	S: Right. How do you know that?	西恩博格：没错。你又是怎么知道它的？
58:29	K: I only know, I don't know it. I only know the fact that... when the past meets the present and continues... it is one of the factors... of time movement, bondage, all the fear, and so on. When there is the past meeting the present, and says yes... I am fully aware of this... completely aware of this movement, then it stops. Then I meet you as though... for the first time, there is something fresh... it's like a new flower coming out.	克：我只知道我对它一无所知。我只知道这个事实，那就是当过去与当下交汇，并且继续向前时它就是导致时间运动、束缚和所有恐惧等等的原因之一。当过去与当下交汇时，说：是的我完全觉察到了它完整地觉察到了这种运动，那么它就会停止了。那时，我见你就会如初次见面一般，那时会有某种崭新的东西就如新的花朵绽放一样。
59:18	S: Yes.	西恩博格：是的。
59:24	K: I think... - we will go on tomorrow. We haven't really tackled... the root of all this... the root, the cause or the root... of all this disturbance, this turmoil... travail, anxiety - you follow?	克：我认为……——我们只能明天再继续了。我们还没有真正地抓住这一切的根源那个源头，那个导致了所有这些烦恼、混乱痛苦和焦虑的原因或者说源头……——你明白了吗？
59:50	B: Why should the brain be in this wild disorder?	博姆：为什么大脑要处在这种狂乱的失序中？
59:53	K: I know, wild. You, who are a doctor, an analyst and all the rest of it... you have to ask that fundamental question - why? Why do human beings live this way?	克：我知道那种狂乱。你是一个医生，一位精神分析医师，等等这些东西你必须要问问这个根本性的问题——为什么？为什么人类要这样生活？
1:00:09	S: Right. Why do they? I ask that all the time. Why are human beings sick?	西恩博格：是的。为什么他们要这样？我一直都在问这个问题。为什么人类会心理不健全？
1:00:18	K: Time. B: Right. (Laughter)	克：时间到了。博姆：好吧。（笑声）