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BR76CTM3 - 我能否从最根本处彻底改变？
与博姆和西恩博格的第三次探讨
英国，布洛克伍德
1976年5月18日



0:10 K: Shall we start where we left off? We were asking, weren't we... why do human beings live this way? 克：我们要从我们上次结束的地方开始吗？ 我们之前在问的，是不是 为什么人类要这样生活？
0:25 S: What is the root? 西恩博格：其根源是什么？
0:27 K: The turmoil, the confusion... the sorrow behind it all, conflict, violence... and so many people offering different... ways of solving the problems... the Asiatic gurus... and the priests all over the world... and the new books, new… everybody offering a new solution, a new method... a new way of solving the problems. And I'm sure this has been going on for a million years. 'Do this and you will be all right. Do that you'll be all right'. But nothing seems to have succeeded... to make man live in order, happily... intelligently, without any of this... chaotic activity going on. Why can't human beings, so-called educated... knowing all the scientific knowledge... biology, sociology... everything is now open to every human being. Why do we human beings live this way, in this appalling misery? Some of them are conscious, some of them... are unconscious, some of them say... 'Well, this is all right... it's only for a few years and I will die. It's a jolly good business and it doesn't matter'. So, why? What is the… Why? 克：那些混乱、困惑 隐藏在这一切背后的痛苦悲伤，冲突、暴力 有那么多的人提供了各种不同的 解决问题的方法 那些亚洲的古鲁们 和全世界的牧师们 那些新的书籍，新的 每个人都提供了一种新的解决方案，新的办法 新的解决问题的途径。 而我确信这种情况已经持续了无数年了。 ‘去这样做，你就不会有问题了； 去那样做，你就没有问题了’。 但是似乎没有什么东西能成功地 让人类去有秩序地生活，去快乐地 智慧地、没有任何 混乱行为地生活。 为什么人类不能……所谓的受过教育的人类 知晓所有的那些科学知识 生物学、社会学 如今，所有知识都已向每一个人开放。 但为什么我们人类还要这样生活，生活在这种骇人的不幸中？ 有些人意识到了它，有些人 没有意识到它，有些人说： ‘嗯，这很正常 它只会持续短短数年，然后我也就死了。 做人要及时行乐，其他事情并没有什么关系’。 所以，为什么？原因是什么 为什么？
2:21 S: Well, I have often said they do it because it gives them... the very sorrow, the very turmoil... the very problems themselves is the security. 西恩博格：嗯，我经常说人们之所以这么做，是因为它带给了他们 悲伤痛苦本身，混乱本身 问题本身，就是一种安全感。
2:35 B: I wouldn't…

K: That doesn't... 		博姆：我觉得不是……

克：这并没有
2:38 B: I don't really think so, I think people just get used to it. They miss anything they are used to but… people get used to scrap fighting and they miss it... when they don't have it. But that isn't the primary reason in my view... why they got started. 博姆：我其实并不这么认为，我觉得人们只是已经习惯了它。 他们想念那些他们过去常常做的事情 但是有些人已经习惯于争吵斗争，所以 当他们没有它时，他们就会想念它。 但是在我看来，这并不是 他们开始这样去做的主要原因。
2:54 S: What is the primary reason in your view? 西恩博格：那么在你看来，主要原因是什么呢？
2:56 K: That's what we are exploring. 克：这就是我们正在探究的东西。
2:58 B: I just feel that whatever happens you'll get used to it... and you come to miss it after a while... because you're used to it but that doesn't explain why it's there. 博姆：我只是觉得无论发生了什么，你都会变得习惯于它 而没过多久，你又会开始想念它 因为你已经习惯它了 但这也并不能解释它存在的原因。
3:05 K: I was reading the other day... some writer saying, historically... 5000 years, historically... there've been 5000 wars... thousands of people killed, millions... killed, women crying - you follow? the whole… and still we are going on. 克：前几天，我在阅读的时候看到了 某个作者说，纵观历史 5000年以来，历史上 曾经发生过5000次战争 成千上万的人被杀害，数百万人 被屠杀，女人们在流泪哭泣——你明白吗？ 这整个……而我们却仍旧在继续着这样的事。
3:26 S: That's right. I had the same experience. at one time I was working and... a guy said to me that he wanted... to go to Vietnam to fight because otherwise... his life was every night at the bar. 西恩博格：没错。我也有过同样的体验。 曾经有一次，我正在工作，然后 有个家伙对我说他想要 去越南打仗，因为不然的话 他的生活就是每天晚上混酒吧。
3:42 K: I know, but that isn't the reason. Why? 克：我明白，但这并不是那个原因。为什么
3:46 S: That's not the reason but there is something they hold… we hold on to the conflict and the sorrow. 西恩博格：这并不是原因，但是他们执著于某些东西 我们执著于冲突和悲伤。
3:53 K: Is it we like it?

S: It's not that we like it; it's almost that we like not liking it. It's a kind of orientation, a kind of... 'If I know my conflict, I know where I am at'. 		克：是不是因为我们喜欢它？

西恩博格：并不是因为我们喜欢它； 而基本上是因为我们想要不要喜欢上它。 它是一种定位力。一种 ‘要是我知道我的冲突，我就知道我在哪里了’。
4:08 K: No. Have we all become neurotic? 克：不是的。我们是不是都已经变成了神经病？
4:11 S: Yes. The whole thing is neurotic. 西恩博格：是的。这整件事都是神经质的。
4:16 K: Are you saying that? 克：你说这话是认真的吗？
4:20 S: Yes. The whole society is neurotic. 西恩博格：是的。整个社会都是神经质的。
4:25 K: Which means that the entire humanity is neurotic? 克：这意味着全人类都是神经质的？
4:30 S: I think so. This is the argument we have all the time... Is the society sick? Then if you say the society is sick... which is your judgement, what is the value... you are using for comparison? 西恩博格：我认为是这样的。这是我们一直以来的争论 这个社会是病态的吗？如果你说整个社会都是病态的 那么你拿什么作为你的判断依据，你用什么样的价值准则 来进行比较？
4:42 K: Which is yourself, who is neurotic. 克：这个社会就是你自己，你也是神经质的。
4:44 S: Right. 西恩博格：没错。
4:46 K: So, when you are faced with that... that human beings live this way... and have accepted it for millennia; there have been saviours... there've been gurus, there've been teachers, there've been... you follow? - and yet they go on this way. And you say... we are all half crazy, demented... from top to bottom, corrupt; and I come along, us come along and say, why? 克：因此，你面对着这样一个状况 即人类以这种方式在生活 并且接受了这种生活方式有几千年了； 人类一直有着各种救世主 各种古鲁，各种导师，各种 你跟上了吗？然而，他们还是继续这个样子。而你说 我们都是处于半疯状态的，都是精神错乱的 从头到脚，我们都已经腐败了； 然后我出现了，我们出现了，然后问：为什么会这样？
5:27 S: Why do we do it? 西恩博格：为什么我们要这样做？
5:29 K: Why?

B: Why are we crazy? 		克：为什么？

博姆：为什么我们会变得疯狂？
5:30 S: Why do we keep it up. Why are we crazy? Right. I have it with my children. I say to my children 'This is a sick society. They spend 50 hours a week in front of the television box. That's their whole life'. My children, they laugh at me... all their friends are doing it. 西恩博格：为什么我们还要继续这样下去？为什么我们都疯了？是的。 我和我的孩子讲过这个事情。 我对我的孩子说：‘这是一个病态的社会。 人们一周会花50个小时坐在电视机前。 这就是他们全部的生活’。我的孩子们，他们嘲笑我 他们所有的朋友都在这样做。
5:45 K: You know, and moving beyond that - why? 克：你瞧，我们要超越这个层面，问一下：为什么会这样？
5:48 S: Why? Without it, what? 西恩博格：为什么？要是不这样，会发生什么？
5:52 K: No, not without it, what. Why first. 克：不，不是不这样会发生什么。首先要问‘为什么’。
5:54 S: That's what we run into. 西恩博格：这是我们所陷入于其中的事物。
5:56 B: Well, no, that's merely a secondary effect. I think we get to depend on it, as we were saying this morning... to occupy us and so on... and Vietnam might seem some release... from the boredom of the pub, or whatever... but that is secondary. 博姆：呃，不，这仅仅是一种次要结果。 我认为我们需要依赖于它，就像今天早上我们所说的 让自己去忙个不停，等等 而越南战争也许是某种 帮助我们逃离酒吧的无聊乏味，或者无论什么东西的途径 但这是次要的。
6:12 K: And also when I go to Vietnam, or fight the war... all responsibility is taken away from me. Somebody else is responsible - the general. 克：另外，当我前往越南，或者参加战争后 我身上所有的责任都没有了。 其他人将会负责——比如那个将军。
6:22 S: Right. 西恩博格：没错。
6:23 B: In the old days people used to think... that war would be a glorious thing. When the war started in England everybody was... in a state of high elation.

K: High, exactly. 		博姆：从前人们常常会认为 战争是一件荣耀之事。 当战火在英国燃起时，每一个人都 处于一种亢奋的状态。

克：亢奋，正是如此。
6:31 B: They didn't know what was in store. 博姆：他们并不知道等待他们的将会是什么。
6:33 K: They are all united. Why?

S: Why? 		克：他们全部团结起来了。 所以，为什么？

西恩博格：为什么？
6:47 K: Is it that we have started out on the wrong path? 克：是不是因为我们已经走上了错误的道路？
6:56 S: That's only part of it. 西恩博格：这只是部分的原因。
6:58 K: The species don't kill themselves... the animal species... but we are the species that kill each other. 克：其他物种并不会自相残杀 那些动物物种 但是我们人类这个物种却会自相残杀。
7:09 S: Right. 西恩博格：是的。
7:11 K: So looking at all this panorama of horror, and misery... I feel this very strongly because... when I travel all over the place... I see this extraordinary phenomena going on... - in India, in America, here, everywhere... and I say why do people live this way... accept these things... read history, and don't... - you follow? it's no longer concealed. They've become cynical. It's all there. 克：所以在看到了这恐怖和痛苦的全貌后 我对此有着非常强烈的感受，因为 当我旅行世界各地的时候 我看到这种惊人的现象正在发生着 在印度、在美国，在这里，在每一个地方 于是我问：为什么人类要这样生活 接受这些东西 虽然阅读了历史，却没有……——你跟上了吗？ 它已经再也掩盖不住了。 人们已经变得玩世不恭。事实就摆在那里。
7:45 S: That's right. They have become cynical. 西恩博格：是的。人们已经变得玩世不恭了。
7:47 B: Nobody believes anything can be done about it, that's one point. 博姆：没有人相信他们还能对此做任何事情，这是一个要点。
7:50 K: That's it.

S: That's it. 		克：正是如此。

西恩博格：是这样的。
7:52 K: Is it that we feel that we cannot do anything about it? 克：是不是我们觉得自己对此无法做任何事情了？
7:56 S: For sure.

B: That's been an old story. People say human nature is that way. 		西恩博格：确实如此。

博姆：这已经是老生常谈了。 人们说人类的本性就是如此。
8:00 K: Can never be altered. 克：它是永远无法改变的。
8:01 B: Yes. That's not new at all. 博姆：是的。这早就不是什么新鲜的观点了。
8:03 K: It's not new. 克：这不是什么新观点。
8:05 S: That's certainly true, people feel - or we feel... let's not say 'people' - we feel... like I said this morning... this is the way it is, this is the way we live. 西恩博格：这是千真万确的，人们觉得……——或者说我们觉得 让我们不要说‘人们’了——我们觉得 就像我今天早上说过的 它就是如此，这就是我们的生活方式。
8:15 K: I know, but why don't you change it? 克：我知道，但你为什么不去改变它呢？
8:20 S: Why don't we change it. 西恩博格：为什么我们不去改变它？
8:27 K: You see your son looking at the television for 50 hours a day... you see your son going off to Vietnam... killed, maimed, blinded - for what? 克：你看到你的儿子一周有50个小时都在看电视 你看到你的儿子动身前往越南战场 被杀死，残废了，或者眼瞎了——这究竟是为了什么？
8:41 S: Right. 西恩博格：嗯。
8:43 K: Sorry! There have been pacifists, there have been war mongers. 克：对不起！ 我们有着那些和平主义者，也有着那些战争贩子。
8:54 B: Many people have said 'we don't accept that human nature... is this way, we will try to change it' and it didn't work. So many people did that, right? The communists tried it... the socialists tried it, some others tried it. 博姆：很多人也曾经说过：‘我们并不同意人性就应如此 我们会努力去改变它’，然而这并没有什么用。 有如此多的人曾经尝试去改变它，不是吗？共产主义者尝试过它 社会主义者尝试过它，其他人也尝试过它。
9:07 K: The utopians. 克：乌托邦主义者。
9:08 B: The utopians, and...there has been so much bad experience... it all adds up to the idea that human nature doesn't change. 博姆：乌托邦主义者，然后……发生过很多很糟糕的经历 它们都验证表明了那个观点，即人类的本性不会改变。
9:14 K: Change. 克：改变。
9:16 S: You know, when Freud came along, Freud made his studies; he never said that psychoanalysis is to change people. He said, we can only study about people. 西恩博格：你们知道，当佛洛伊德出现后，他进行了他的研究； 他从未说过精神分析可以改变人类。 他说，我们只能够去研究人类。
9:25 K: I'm not interested in that. I don't have to read Freud... or Jung, or you, or anybody, it's there right in front of me. 克：我对这个并不感兴趣。我并不需要去读什么佛洛伊德 荣格、你或者任何人的东西，一切就摆在我的面前。
9:32 S: Right. So let's say… that's good. We know this. We know this fact about people... and we also know the fact of the matter is... they don't try to change it.

K: So what is preventing them? 		西恩博格：没错。那么，让我们说……很好。 我们明白了这一点。我们知道了这个关于人类的事实 我们也知道了这样一个事实真相，那就是 他们并没有试图去改变它。

克：所以，是什么在阻碍着他们？
9:46 S: That's the question. That's another fact. 西恩博格：这就是问题所在。这是另一个事实。
9:49 B: People have tried to change it in many cases but... 博姆：人们曾经以很多方式试图去改变它，可是
9:51 S: OK. But now let's say that they don't try to change it. 西恩博格：好吧。但是现在我们说的是，他们并没有试图去改变它。
9:54 K: They go to Ashramas, they go to… a dozen ways they have tried to change. But essentially they are the same. 克：他们会去静修所，他们会去 他们会以一打子的方式试图去改变。 但是本质上来说，他们还是和以前一样。
10:01 B: I think people cannot find out... how to change human nature. 博姆：我认为人们无法搞清楚 要如何去改变人类的本性。
10:05 K: Is that it? 克：是这样吗？
10:06 B: Well, whatever methods have been tried are entirely... 博姆：嗯，任何一种人们所尝试过的方法都彻底
10:10 S: Is that it? Or is it the fact that the very nature of the way... they want to change it is part of the process itself? 西恩博格：是这样的吗？还是说事实上，他们想要用以改变它的那种方式，其本质 仍旧是这个过程本身的一部分？
10:16 K: That's what he is saying.

S: No, he's… 		克：这就是他在说的东西。

西恩博格：不，他说的是
10:18 B: Well, no, but I'm saying both. The first point is that... whatever people have tried... has not been guided by an understanding... a correct understanding of human nature. 博姆：呃，不是的，这两个我都说到了。第一个要点就是 人们所尝试过的任何方法 并不是在某种理解的指引下进行的 ——那种对于人类本性的正确理解。
10:28 S: So it's guided by this very process itself. The incorrectness. 西恩博格：所以它是被那个过程本身所指引的。 那种错误。
10:32 B: Yes, let's take the Marxists who say... that human nature can be improved but... only when the whole economic... and political structure has altered. 博姆：是的，就拿马克思主义者来举个例子吧，他们会说 人类的本性是可以改善的，不过这 只有当整个经济 和政治结构发生改变以后才可能。
10:40 K: Altered.

B: But then... 		克：改变以后。

博姆：然而后来
10:42 K: They've tried to alter it, but human nature stays the same. 克：他们曾试图去改变它，然而人类的本性还是照旧。
10:44 B: They can't alter it, because human nature is such... that they can't really alter it. 博姆：他们无法改变它，因为人类的本性是如此的 以至于他们无法真正地改变它。
10:49 K: They've got a class society... they started off no wars, you know... 克：他们搞出了一个阶级社会 他们以没有战争作为前提而开始，然而你知道
10:53 S: But they are using a mechanical way... to make a mechanical change. 西恩博格：他们在使用一种机械化的方式 带来一种机械化的改变。
10:57 K: Look at it, you, take yourself; sorry to be personal... if you don't mind; you be the victim! 克：观察一下它，你，就拿你自己来说；很抱歉，我又针对个人了 希望你不会介意；你就是那个受害者！
11:04 S: I'll be the victim. Pig in the middle! 西恩博格：我将会成为那个受害者。那个夹在中间，两头受气的人！
11:06 K: Why don't you change? 克：你为什么不改变？
11:09 S: Well, I...

K: No! Don't give explanations. 		西恩博格：呃，我……

克：不！不要给出那些解释。
11:15 S: Well, the feel of it is that… the immediate feel of it is that... there is still, there is that… I guess, I'd have to say there is... some sort of false security, the fragmentation... the immediate pleasures that are gotten from the fragmentation; in other words, there is still that movement of fragmentation. That's how come there is not the change. There is not seeing the whole thing. 西恩博格：嗯，我对此的感觉就是 我对此最直接的感受就是 仍然有着……有着那种 我想，我会说存在着 某种错误的安全感，那种支离破碎 以及从那种支离破碎中所得到的即刻的快感； 换句话说，那种碎片的运动依然存在着。 这就是为什么没有改变的原因。 因为没有看到那个整体。
11:54 K: When you say that, are you saying, political action... religious action, social action, all separate... all fighting each other almost; and we are that.

S: Right. 		克：你说的这些，意思是不是那些政治行为 宗教行为、社会行为，它们都是彼此分离的 它们几乎都在彼此斗争着； 而我们就是这些东西。

西恩博格：没错。
12:15 K: Is that what you are saying?

S: Yes, I'm saying that. We keep getting something back from it, we get these... immediate pleasures and failures, frustrations from these... 		克：这是不是你在说的东西？

西恩博格：是的，我就是在说这个。 我们一直都在从它那里得到一些东西，我们从这些东西中获得了 即刻的快感、挫败和沮丧。
12:29 K: Sir, there is a much deeper issue than that. 克：先生，那个问题要比这深刻得多。
12:32 S: There's more. My immediate response is, why don't I change? What is it that keeps me from seeing the total? I don't know. I keep coming up with a kind of feeling that... I am getting something. I keep getting something from not changing. 西恩博格：深刻得多。我立即的反应就是：为什么我不改变？ 什么东西在阻止着我去看到整体？我不知道。 我一直会有这么一种感觉，那就是 经由‘不改变’，我得到了一些东西， 我一直在从中获得一些东西。
12:56 K: No. Is it the entity that wishes to change... sets the pattern of change... and therefore the pattern is always the same... under a different colour? I don't know if I'm making myself clear? 克：不是的。是不是那个希望去改变的个体 他设定了一种如何改变的模板 因此那个模板永远都是相同的 尽管它有着各种各样的外表？ 我不知道我有没有表达清楚？
13:16 S: Can you say it in another way? 西恩博格：你能不能换一种说法？
13:19 K: I want to change. And I plan out what to change... how to bring about this change. The planner is always the same.

S: That's right. 		克：我想要改变。于是我筹划要去改变哪些东西 以及如何带来这种改变。 然而那个筹划者却一直都没有变。

西恩博格：没错。
13:36 K: But the patterns change. 克：改变的是那些模板。
13:38 S: That's right. Yes. I have an image of what I want. 西恩博格：对。是的，我有了一个意象，它是我想要获得的东西。
13:43 K: No - patterns change, but I, who want to change... create the patterns of change.

S: Yes, that's right. 		克：不，模板在改变，但是‘我’——这个想要去改变的人 创造出了那些改变的模板。

西恩博格：是的，没错。
13:52 K: Therefore I am the old and the patterns are the new... but the old is always conquering the new. 克：因此我是旧的，而那些模板是新的 但是旧的东西总是压倒了新的东西。
13:58 S: Right. 西恩博格：对。
14:01 B: But of course when I do that I don't feel that I'm the old... 博姆：但是毫无疑问，当我这样做的时候，我并不觉得自己是旧的
14:04 K: Of course. 克：当然了。
14:05 B: I feel that I'm the new... 博姆：我觉得自己是新的
14:06 S: 'I have got a new idea'… 西恩博格：‘我有了一个新的想法’
14:09 B: But I really don't feel that I'm involved in that old stuff... that I want to change. 博姆：我其实并没有感觉到自己也包含在那些 我想要去改变的旧事物里。
14:13 K: Just now, after lunch you were saying... Kabala, that thing, there is a new system. 克：就在刚才，午餐之后，你们谈论了 Kabala（犹太神秘哲学）这个东西，这又是一个新的体系。
14:18 B: Yes. 博姆：是的。
14:19 K: Say, if you study this you will be transformed. 克：它说，要是你钻研这个，你就能得到转变。
14:22 S: That's right. 西恩博格：没错。
14:23 K: This has been said a 100 million times. 'Do this and you will be transformed'. They try to do it but the centre is always the same. 克：这种话已经被说了有一亿次了。 ‘去做这个，然后你就能获得转变’。 人们努力去做它，但是那个中心却永远都是一样。
14:32 B: But each person who does it... feels that it has never happened before. 博姆：但是每一个去做它的人 都会觉得它是从来没有过的。
14:36 K: Yes. My experience through that book is entirely different... but the experiencer is the same old self. 克：是的。 我通过那本书而得到的经验是完全不同的 然而那个经验者却是那个同样的旧的自我。
14:46 S: The same old thing, right. 西恩博格：同样的旧的事物，没错。
14:50 K: I think that is one of the root causes of it. 克：我认为这就是它的根本原因之一。
14:53 S: Yes, yes. 西恩博格：是的，是的。
14:54 B: It's a kind of sleight of hand trick whereby the thing... which is causing the trouble is sort of put into position... as if it were the thing that were trying to make the change. You see, it's a deception. 博姆：这是一个把戏，那个引起麻烦的东西 借助这种手法将自己置于某个位置 就好像它是那个试图去作出改变的东西。 你看，这是一种欺骗。
15:08 K: I'm deceiving myself all the time by saying... 'I am going to change that, become that', then if it doesn't… and so on and on. Is that it?

S: That begins to get at it… 		克：我一直在欺骗我自己说： ‘我要去改变它，我要变成什么什么样’，然后要是它没有 等等诸如此类。 是这样吗？

西恩博格：这开始有点触及要点了
15:24 K: No, no. Look at yourself and say 'Is that it?' You read Hindu... wait a minute - Hindu, or some book. 克：不，不。看看你自己，然后问：‘是这样吗？’ 你读了印度的书籍 请稍安勿躁——印度的书，或者其他什么书。
15:34 S: Right. 西恩博格：嗯。
15:35 K: And say 'Yes, how true that is... I am going to live according to that'. But the 'me' that's going to live according to that... is the same old me. 克：然后你说‘是啊，它是多么的正确啊 我要依照它来生活’。 但是那个将要依照它来生活的‘我’ 仍旧是那个同样的原来的我。
15:44 S: Right. But we have… We run into this in... I think that all systems, for instance, of therapy... with patients, the patient will say... the doctor is going to be the one... who is going to help him. And then... when they see that that doctor is... 西恩博格：没错。但是我们……我们碰到了这样一个问题 我认为所有的体系，举个例子，比如心理分析的精神疗法 病人会认为 医生将会是那个 能够帮助他的人。然后 当他们发现那个医生原来
16:03 K: ...is like you. 克：……是像他一样的人。
16:05 S: ...is like you or is not going to help you, then… they are supposed to get better, they are supposed to be well... but in fact they have never touched... that central issue, which is that... 'I thought that somebody could help me'. So then they go to something else... most of them go to another theory. 西恩博格：……是像他一样的人，或者无法帮助他，于是 他们本应该是会变得更好的， 他们本应该是能够康复的 但事实上，他们却从未触及到 那个核心问题： 即‘我认为有人可以帮助我’。 于是他们会去找一些其他的东西 他们大多数人又会转向另一种理论。
16:23 K: Another guru… 克：另一个古鲁
16:24 S: Another guru, another type of thing... whether it's a mind guru... 西恩博格：另一个古鲁，另一类事物 不管它是一个思想的古鲁，还是
16:27 K: This afternoon there was a man here... talking about a new guru... or an old guru - it's all the same old stuff. 克：今天下午，这里有一个人 他在谈论一位新的古鲁 或者也可能是一位旧的古鲁——他们全都是同样的旧东西。
16:39 S: You are really getting at the issue... the fact that the root is this belief... that something can help you. 西恩博格：你真正触及到了这个问题 那就是，事实上，那个根源就是这种 ‘某个东西可以帮助你’的信念。
16:47 K: No, no. The root remains the same, and we trim the branches. 克：不，不是的。 那个根源仍旧是一样的，我们只是在修剪它的枝节。
16:55 B: I think the root is something we don't see... because we put it in the position... of the one who is supposed to be seeing. 博姆：我认为那个根源是某种我们没有看到的东西 因为我们给它的定位是 那个假定的‘观看者’。
17:01 K: Yes. 克：是的。
17:03 S: Say that another way. 西恩博格：能不能换种说法。
17:05 B: It is a sort of conjuring trick. We don't see the root... because the root is put into the position of somebody... who would be looking for the root. I don't know if you see it... 博姆：这是一种戏法。我们之所以看不到这个根源 是因为这个根源被定义为是某个 在寻找根源的人。 我不知道你明白了没
17:16 K: Yes. The root says 'I'm looking for the root'. 克：是的。那个根源在说‘我在寻找根源’。
17:20 B: It's like the man who says 'I'm looking for my glasses'... and he's got them on!

S: Or like that Sufi story... 'I am looking for the key'... the one about 'I'm looking for the key over here'... You know the story? The Sufi, the guy comes along... and the guy is crawling around under... the lightpost, and he's looking for… a guy comes along and says 'What are you doing there?'. 'I'm looking for my key'. - 'Did you lose it here?'... 'No, I lost it over there... but there is more light over here'. (Laughter) 		博姆：这就像是一个人说‘我在寻找我的眼镜’ 然而他正戴着眼镜呢！

西恩博格：或者就像是那个苏非派的故事 ‘我正在寻找那个钥匙’ 那个关于‘我正在这里寻找钥匙’的故事 你们知道那个故事吗？ 有一个苏非派的家伙 这个家伙在路灯底下爬来爬去 他在寻找某个东西 有一个人过来了，他问‘你在这里干什么？’ ‘我在找我的钥匙’。——‘你是在这里掉的吗？’ ‘不，我是在那个地方掉的……’ 但是这里更明亮一点’。（笑声）
17:48 B: We throw the light on the other part. 博姆：我们将灯光投射到了另一个地方。
17:53 K: Yes, sir. So if I want to change... because I don't want to live that way... I don't want to follow anybody... because they are all like the rest of the gang. I don't accept any authority in all this. 克：是的，先生。所以，如果我想要改变 因为我不想以这种方式生活 我不想去跟从任何人 因为他们和其他那帮人是一路货色。 我不接受这其中任何的权威。
18:12 S: Yes. 西恩博格：嗯。
18:15 K: Authority arises only when I am confused. 克：只有在我困惑的时候，权威才会出现。
18:18 K: When I am in disorder.

S: That's right. 		克：在我处于混乱的时候。

西恩博格：没错。
18:21 K: So I say, can I completely change at the very root? 克：所以我问，我能否从根源处彻底地改变？
18:29 B: Let's look at that because you are saying 'I'... there seems to be confusion in the language... because to say 'I'... 博姆：让我们来看一下它吧，因为你说‘我’能否 这里似乎有一种语言造成的混淆 因为你说‘我’
18:36 K: Confusion of language. 克：语言造成的混淆。
18:38 B: It makes it hard because you say 'I'm going to change…' It's not clear what I mean by 'I'.

K: The 'I' is the root. 		博姆：这让它变得令人费解，因为你说‘我将要去改变……’ 但没有澄清我所说的‘我’是什么意思。

克：‘我’就是那个根源。
18:45 B: The 'I' is the root, so how can 'I' change? 博姆：‘我’就是那个根源，所以‘我’又怎么可能改变呢？
18:47 K: That's the whole point. 克：这就是要点所在。
18:49 B: The language is confusing because you say... 'I've got to change at the root', but I'm the root. 博姆：语言容易引起混淆，因为你说 ‘我要从根源处改变’，可是我就是那个根源。
18:55 K: Yes.

B: So what's going to happen? 		克：是的。

博姆：那么会发生什么呢？
18:58 S: What's going to happen, yes. 西恩博格：将会发生什么呢？是的。
19:00 K: No. How am I not to be I? 克：不。我要如何才能不成为‘我’？
19:05 S: That's the question.

B: What do you mean by that? 		西恩博格：这就是问题所在。

博姆：你的意思是什么？
19:11 S: How am I not to be I. But let's roll it back a minute. You state that you are not going to accept any authority. 西恩博格：我要如何不成为‘我’。让我们暂时先回头去看一下。 你说你不会去接受任何权威。
19:22 K: Who is my authority? Who? They have all told me 'Do this, do that... do the other. Read this book and you will change. Follow this system, you will change. Identify yourself with god, you will change'. But I remain exactly as I was before... in sorrow, in misery... in confusion, looking for help... and I choose the help which suits me most. 克：谁是我的权威？谁？ 他们都告诉我说‘去这样做，去那样做 或者去做其他什么事情。读一下这本书，然后你就会改变。 跟随这个体系，你就会改变。 把自己认同于上帝，你就会改变’。 但是我仍旧和从前一模一样 我悲伤、我痛苦 我困惑，四处寻找帮助 然后选择了那个最适合我的帮助。
19:53 S: Can we stop here for a minute? What would you say... I mentioned something about psychiatry... and I'd like to get something straight if we can. There is this whole theory... and gurus have it, they don't talk about it, but they have it... and there is in all psychiatry, that is the theory... that if I go along with the authority... to where I see my addiction to authority... then I'll free myself from the authority. You know that? 西恩博格：我们能不能在这里稍微停一下？我不知道你对这件事有何看法 我想提一下关于精神病学的一些东西 要是可以的话，我想直言不讳地说出来。 有种那种完整的理论学说 古鲁们对此心知肚明，虽然他们没有明说，但是他们知道 在所有的精神病学中，都有这种理论 那就是如果我一直跟从着权威走 走到一定的地步，我会看到我对权威的沉溺上瘾 然后我就会让自己从权威中脱离出来。你们知道这个吗？
20:19 K: Yes. The communists say... 'Freedom comes at the end of good discipline. And discipline is what I tell you'. 克：是的。共产主义者说 ‘在严格的纪律管制的最后，自由就会出现’。 而纪律就是那些我告诉你的东西’。
20:27 B: Yes, at the end of it... there is the dictatorship of the proletariat. 博姆：是的，在最后的时候 那是无产阶级的独裁专政。
20:31 S: Right. In other words... by giving myself over, I will discover my error. Now, what do you want to say about that? 西恩博格：是的。换句话说 通过放弃我自己，我就可以发现我的错误所在。 那么，你对此有什么想说的？
20:41 B: Isn't that obvious? 博姆：这难道不是显而易见的吗？
20:43 S: Right. It's obvious that... I'm doing the same thing, and then I see... the failure of this authority, but there is a thesis there... that if I see the particular of my following authority... then I will see the universal in the root. 西恩博格：没错。很显然， 因为我也在做着同样的事，所以我会看到 这种权威的失败之处，但是这里有一个论点 即如果我看清了我自己跟从权威的这个个例 那么我就能够从根源上去看清那些普遍化的现象。
21:01 B: But why do you have to follow the authority to see authority? This is one of the questions. Do you have to deceive yourself... in order to understand self-deception? (Laughter) 博姆：但为什么你一定要通过跟从权威，才能去看清权威呢？ 这就是其中的问题之一。 你一定要通过欺骗自己 才能去了解‘自欺’吗？（笑声）
21:18 K: Yes sir. Is it possible for a human being... to change at the very root of his being? They have tried different ways, - Zen - you follow? 10 different, umpteen different ways to change man... rewarding him, punishing him, promising him. Nothing has changed, or brought about this miraculous change. And it's a miraculous change. 克：是的，先生。 一个人是否可能 从他存在的根源处改变？ 人们已经尝试过很多不同的方法，——禅宗——你跟上了吗？ 十种不同的、无数不同的方式来改变人类 奖励他、惩罚他，许诺他。 然而却没能改变任何东西，或者带来这种奇迹般的转变。 它是一种奇迹般的转变。
21:57 S: It would be, yes, yes. 西恩博格：它将会是一种奇迹般的转变，是的，没错。
22:00 K: It is. Everybody promises, do this, do that, do the other. 克：它的确如此。每一个人都作出了承诺，要你去这样做，那样做，或者去做其他事情。
22:05 S: Right. 西恩博格：是的。
22:07 K: And I, we come along and say 'Look, I don't want to... accept any authority'.

S: Right. 		克：然后我，我们过来了，说‘瞧，我并不想要去 接受任何权威’。

西恩博格：没错。
22:16 K: Because you have misguided everybody. All the authorities. 克：因为你们已经误导了所有人。你们这些权威。
22:22 S: Authority...

K: ...in itself is disorder. 		西恩博格：权威……

克：……其本身就是一种混乱失序。
22:26 S: Right. 西恩博格：是的。
22:28 K: Authority exists because human beings are in disorder. The disorder has created them, not clarity, not compassion... not something entirely different. The disorder has created them. So why should I follow them? Though they promise, do this, discipline yourself... according to this way, ultimately you'll be free. I reject all that. Intelligently, because I see. It isn't a cantankerous rejection... it's a reasonable, sane rejection. So how do I proceed? I've got 50 years to live. I don't know about the future, may be... I'll find out, but I have got 50 years to live properly. What is the correct action? 克：权威之所以存在，是因为人类处于混乱之中。 是那种混乱创造出了他们，而不是清明、慈悲 或者某种截然不同的事物。 是混乱创造出了他们。 所以为什么我要去跟从他们呢？ 尽管他们向我承诺说，去这样做，去依照这种方式来管教约束你自己 你最终将会获得自由。 但我拒绝所有这一切。 我智慧地拒绝了它，因为我看清了它。 这并不是一种任性和刚愎自用的拒绝 这是一种理性的、心智健全的拒绝。 所以我要如何继续下去？ 我还能活五十年的时间。 我不清楚我的未来，或许 我将会明白，然而我只有五十年的时间可以去正确地生活了。 所以，什么才是恰当的行动？
23:36 S: What is the correct action to live properly? 西恩博格：那种去正确生活的恰当的行动是什么？
23:40 K: That's all. To be sane!

S: To be sane. 		克：就是这样。你要心智健全！

西恩博格：要心智健全。
23:44 K: Not to be neurotic. Who is going to tell me? The communists? Marx? Lenin? Mao? The Pope? Or the local priest? Who is going to tell me? Because they don't act rightly either. 克：不要变得神经质。 谁又能够来告诉我呢？那些共产主义者？马克思？列宁？ 毛泽东？教皇？还是当地的牧师？谁能来告诉我呢？ 因为他们也没有去正确地行动。
24:12 S: We have a whole group of people... who don't say that they'll tell you... a whole group of people who say... 'See how you follow me... if you follow me, see your tendency to follow me… 西恩博格：我们有着那么一大群人 他们并没有说他们将会来告诉你 这群人说 ‘去看看你是如何跟从我的 要是你在跟从我，去看到你身上那种跟从我的倾向
24:27 K: Yes, yes.

B: I understand that. 		克：是的，是的。

博姆：我能理解这个。
24:29 S: The business of self-deception. To see through your own self-deception.… 西恩博格：那种自欺的事情。 通过你自身的自欺来看清
24:34 B: That's really an impossible trick... because if you say 'Follow me and deceive yourself'... then you must genuinely deceive yourself, and you can't see. 博姆：这其实是一个不可能的把戏 因为要是你说‘跟从我，并且欺骗你自己’的话 那么你肯定会真正地欺骗你自己，所以你就无法看清了。
24:41 S: That's right, but the thesis is that... if you deceive yourself, you will see... your own tendency to self-deception... which you don't see. 西恩博格：这没错，但是那个论点在于 如果你能欺骗自己的话，你就会看到 你自身的那种自欺的倾向了 ——那种你看不到的自欺倾向。
24:49 B: But that must be authority because... it doesn't make sense to say that... if I deceive myself I'm going to see through deceiving myself. The whole point of self-deception is... if I am really doing it right... I don't know what I am doing.

S: Right. 		博姆：但那样的话，肯定就会有权威了，因为 因为这件事不太说得通 ——如果我欺骗自己，我就能看清我的自欺。 自欺的重点就在于 要是我真的很彻底地去那样做了 我就不知道自己在干什么了。

西恩博格：没错。
25:02 B: Therefore how do you guarantee to me that I can see... through self-deception by deceiving myself? 博姆：因此，你又如何向我保证说我可以 通过欺骗自己来看清自欺呢？
25:07 S: Because I am going to show you through your… I am not going to participate; I am going to be here and you are going to deceive yourself... and then you'll see this authority in action... the way you need authority. 西恩博格：因为我将会向你展示出这一点：即通过你的 我不会参与进来； 我会在这里，而你要去欺骗你自己 然后你就会看到这种权威的活动 以及你对权威的需求。
25:18 K: You are talking about group therapy… 克：你在谈的是集体心理疗法
25:20 S: I am talking about a kind of psychotherapy, right. 西恩博格：没错，我正在谈论某种心理疗法。
25:23 B: Why do I need to go through all that to see self-deception? You see, it's not clear. 博姆：但为什么我需要经历所有这些才能去看到那种自欺呢？ 你瞧，这件事并不是很清楚明白。
25:29 S: No, it's not clear. But that is the only way - in other words... you are so desperately in need. You need me desperately.

K: I don't need you! 		西恩博格：是的，它不是很明白易懂。但这是唯一的方式——换句话说 你是如此迫切地需要它。 你如此迫切地需要我。

克：我并不需要你！
25:37 S: No, but he does. 西恩博格：你不需要，但是‘他’需要。
25:40 K: That is fundamentally wrong. 克：这是彻底错误的。
25:42 B: I'm accepting authority. Right? 博姆：所以我正在接受着权威。对吗？
25:45 S: Yes, you are fundamentally... That's right. He is fundamentally wrong. Here he is... he is fundamentally wrong!

K: Tell him that! 		西恩博格：是的，你是彻底……是这样的。 他是彻底错误的。在这一点上 他是彻底错误的！

克：那就告诉他吧！
25:51 S: You are fundamentally wrong. He did not hear me. 西恩博格：你已经彻底错了。可是他并不听我的。
25:54 K: No. Don't allow him to appeal to you. 克：不。不要让他求助于你。
26:01 S: You mean, don't play along in this absurdity. 西恩博格：你的意思是，不要去参与这件荒谬之事。
26:05 K: I can't help you.

S: I can't help you. 		克：我无法帮助你。

西恩博格：我无法帮助你。
26:08 K: Because I'm like you.

B: I'll take my trade elsewhere! 		克：因为我也像你一样。

博姆：所以我只能去找别人了！
26:11 S: He'll go somewhere else. 西恩博格：你看他要去找别人了。
26:13 K: If everybody said 'I can't help you'... you have to do it yourself, look at yourself... then the whole thing is beginning to act. 克：要是每一个人都说‘我无法帮助你’的话 那么你就必须自力更生了，你必须去观察你自己 然后整件事情就会开始有所起色了。
26:22 S: Right. But the whole thing doesn't work like that. There are a lot of people who will be willing... to deceive him for a few dollars. 西恩博格：对，但这整件事并不是这样发展的。 有很多人会愿意 为了几美元而去欺骗他。
26:29 K: We know they are all neurotic people. Here is a man who says 'I am neurotic... I won't go to any other neurotic... to become sane'. I know. So what does he do? He doesn't accept any authority... because I have created... out of my disorder, the authority. 克：我们知道他们都是神经质的人。 有这么一个人，他说‘我是神经质的 但我不会去找任何其他神经质的人 以此来变得心智健全’。因为我知道这一切。所以，他要怎么做呢？ 他不接受任何权威 因为是我经由自身的混乱而创造出了 权威。
26:59 B: Yes, that's merely the hope that somebody knows what to do. 博姆：是的，但这仅仅是一种希望，希望某人能知道该怎么做。
27:02 K: Yes. 克：是的。
27:03 B: Because I feel this chaos is too much for me and I just assume... that somebody else can tell me what to do. But that comes out of this confusion. In other words… 博姆：因为我觉得这种混乱让我不堪重负了，而我只是假定 其他人可以告诉我该怎么做。 但这也是来自于这种混乱的。换句话说
27:12 S: Yes, the disorder creates the authority. 西恩博格：是的，那种混乱失序制造出了权威。
27:15 B: The authority, yes. 博姆：是的，权威。
27:16 K: Of course. In the school I have been saying... 'if you behave properly there is no authority'. The behaviour we have all agreed to... punctuality, cleanliness, this or that. If you really see it... you have no authority. 克：当然了。在学校的时候，我曾经说过 ‘如果你能正确恰当地去行动，那么就不会有权威了’。 我们都同意认可的那些行为 守时、清洁，这个或那个。要是你真正看到了它 那么你就不会有权威了。
27:37 S: Yes, I see that. That is a key point, the disorder itself creates the need for authority. 西恩博格：是的，我看到了它。这是一个关键点， 是混乱本身制造出了对于权威的需求。
27:45 K: Look what has happened in India. Mussolini is a perfect example. Trains run properly (laughs)… 克：看看印度发生的事情吧。 墨索里尼就是一个最好的例子。 火车终于准点运行了（笑）
27:51 B: It doesn't actually create a need for authority. It creates among people the impression... that they need authority to correct the disorder... that would be more exact.

K: Right. 		博姆：实际上并不是混乱制造出了对权威的需求。 混乱让人们产生了这样一种想法 即他们需要权威来改正这种混乱 这样说更准确一些。

克：没错。
28:00 B: Because authority, they don't need it at all... because it's just destructive. 博姆：其实他们根本不需要什么权威 因为权威只会带来毁灭。
28:04 S: Right, right. 西恩博格：是的，是的。
28:08 K: So let's start from there. I reject all this - being not insane. In the rejection of authority I have become very sane. I'm beginning to become sane. 克：那么，就让我们从这里开始吧。 我拒绝了所有这些东西——因为我不是精神病。 就在拒绝权威的过程中，我就变得心智健全了。 我开始变得正常了。
28:26 K: So I say, I know I am neurotic; a human being says... I know, now what shall I do? What is the correct action in my life? Can I ever find it, being neurotic? I can't. So I won't ask what is the right action. I will say now... can I free my mind, the mind... from being neurotic, is it possible? I won't go to Jerusalem, I won't to - you follow? to Rome, I won't go to any new… Park Avenue doctor - nobody.

S: Right. 		克：所以我说，我知道我是神经质的；某个人说 我知道的，那么现在，我该怎么做？ 在我的生活中，什么才是正确的行动？ 作为一个神经质的人，我可能找到它吗？ 不可能。 所以，我不会去问什么才是正确的行动。现在，我会问： 我能否让我的心灵，我的头脑 摆脱神经质，这可能吗？ 我不会去耶路撒冷，我不会去……——你们跟上了吗？ 我不会去罗马，我不会去找林荫大道（注：纽约有名的富人街）的某个新的 医生——我不会去找任何人。

西恩博格：嗯。
29:16 K: Because I'm very serious now. I am deadly serious because that is my life. 克：因为此刻我非常认真。 我无比严肃认真，因为这是我的生活。
29:21 S: Right. 西恩博格：没错。
29:22 B: But then, you have to be so serious… then you said that in spite of the immense pressure to escape... 博姆：但是那样的话，你就必须要如此的认真 你会说，尽管有着那种巨大的使人想逃避的压力
29:27 K: I won't. 克：我不会去逃避。
29:29 B: You won't. But I am saying... one will feel at this juncture... there'll probably be an intense pressure towards escape... saying this is too much.

K: No sir. You see what happens… 		博姆：你不会。但我说的是 有人会在这个节骨眼上觉得 可能会存在一种巨大的压力，让人想逃避 人们会说这压力太大了。

克：不，先生。来看一下，将会发生什么呢
29:40 S: Actually it's not what happens.

B: Why? 		西恩博格：但事实上，并不会发生这样的事。

博姆：为什么？
29:42 K: When I reject authority, I've much more energy. 克：当我拒绝了权威，我就会拥有更多的能量。
29:45 S: Tremendous energy. 西恩博格：无比巨大的能量。
29:46 B: Yes, if you reject the authority. 博姆：是的，要是你能拒绝权威的话。
29:48 K: Because I am now concentrated to find out. 克：因为现在我可以全神贯注地去寻找了。
29:51 S: That's right. That is what happens… 西恩博格：没错。这才会将会发生的事情
29:53 K: I'm not looking to anybody. 克：我不去依靠任何人。
29:55 S: In other words, then I have to… I have to be rawly open to 'what is' - that's all I've got. 西恩博格：换句话说，那时我就必须 我就必须如实去面对‘事实真相’——这就是我全部的东西。
30:03 K: So what shall I do? 克：所以，我要怎么做？
30:05 S: When I am rawly open to 'what is'? 西恩博格：你是说当我如实去面对‘事实真相’的时候吗？
30:07 K: Not open. Here is a human being, caught in all this... what shall he do? No authority; knows social discipline is immoral. Right? 克：不是‘去面对’。现在这里有一个人，他陷入于所有这些东西中 那么他该怎么办？ 他没有权威； 他知道社会的行为准则都是不道德的。对吗？
30:29 S: Then it's the intense alertness… 西恩博格：那时就会有一种强烈的警觉
30:32 K: No. Tell me. Tell me - you are a doctor... tell me what I am to do. I reject you. 克：不。告诉我，告诉我。——你是一个医生 你告诉我该怎么做。如果我拒绝你的话。
30:38 S: Right. 西恩博格：嗯。
30:40 K: Because you are not my doctor, you are not my authority. 克：因为你不是我的医生，你不是我的权威。
30:43 S: Right. 西恩博格：没错。
30:44 K: You don't tell me what to do, because you are confused. 克：你不用告诉我该怎么做，因为你也是困惑的。
30:48 S: Right. 西恩博格：嗯。
30:49 K: So you have no right to tell me what to do. 克：所以你没有权力来教我怎么做。
30:51 S: Right. 西恩博格：嗯。
30:54 K: So I come to you as a friend and say... 'Let's find out. Because you are serious and I'm serious'. 克：所以我是作为一个朋友过来找你，我说 ‘让我们一起去发现。因为你是认真的，我也是认真的。’
31:00 S: That's right.

K: Let's see how... 		西恩博格：没错。

克：让我们看看要如何
31:02 S: We can work together… 西恩博格 ：我们可以合作
31:05 K: No, no, be careful. I'm not working together. 克：不，不是，这里要小心一点。我并不是在与你合作。
31:09 S: You are not going to work together? 西恩博格：你不准备去合作吗？
31:11 K: No. We are together investigating. 克：不是合作。我们是一起去探究。
31:13 S: Together investigating. OK, we won't call it… 西恩博格：一起去探究。好吧，我们就不把它称为
31:16 K: No, no. Working together means co-operation. 克：不，不。合作意味着去配合。
31:20 S: Right. 西恩博格：对。
31:22 K: I'm not co-operating. I say you are like me. What am I to co-operate with? 克：但我并不是在配合你。我说的是，你就像我一样。 所以我要去配合什么东西呢？
31:29 S: You don't want to co-operatively investigate? 西恩博格：你并不想要与我配合去探究吗？
31:31 K: No. Because you are like me.

S: That's right. 		克：不想。因为你和我并没什么不同。

西恩博格：没错。
31:36 K: Confused, miserable, unhappy, neurotic. Sorry! 克：困惑、痛苦、不幸福、神经质。很抱歉这么说！
31:40 S: Right, right. 西恩博格：是的，是的。
31:42 K: So I say 'How can we co-operate?' We can only co-operate in neuroticism. 克：所以我说‘我们又怎么去配合呢？’ 我们只能够在神经质的状态下去彼此配合。
31:48 S: That's right. You mean we will collude essentially to… deceive ourselves. So what are we going to do? 西恩博格：没错。你的意思是我们本质上会勾结串通着去 欺骗我们自己。那么，我们要怎么去做呢？
31:56 K: So can we investigate together? 克：所以，我们能否一起去探究？
31:59 S: That's a very interesting question. Can we? How can we both investigate together if we are both neurotic? 西恩博格：这是一个非常有趣的问题。我们可以吗？ 要是我们都是神经质的，我们又如何能够一起去探究呢？
32:05 K: No. So I say 'Look... I am going to first see in what ways I am neurotic'. 克：不。那样的话，我就会说‘瞧 首先，我会去看一下，我的神经质是以何种方式表现的’。
32:13 S: OK. All right. Let's look at it. 西恩博格：好的，没问题。让我们来看一下它。
32:16 K: Yes, look at it. In what way am I neurotic? A human being... who comes from New York, or Tokyo... or Delhi, or Moscow, or wherever it is. He says 'I know I am neurotic... society is neurotic, the leaders are neurotic... and I am the world and the world is me'. So I can't look to anybody. See what that gives you, what it does? 克：是的，来观察一下它。 我的神经质是以怎样的方式表现的？那个人—— 不管他是来自纽约、东京 德里、莫斯科还是任何地方。 他说‘我知道自己是神经质的 整个社会是神经质的，那些领袖也是神经质的 我就是这个世界，而这个世界就是我’。 所以我无法去依靠任何人。 看看这将会给你带来什么，它会有什么样的结果？
32:49 S: It really puts you straight up there in front. 西恩博格：它其实是直接把你推到了台前。
32:54 K: It gives you a tremendous sense of integrity. 克：它给了你一种强烈的完整感。
32:59 S: Right. You have the ball in your hands, now run with it. 西恩博格：没错。现在球在你手上了，带着它奔跑吧。
33:12 K: Now, can I - 'I' being a human being... Can I look at my neurotic things? Is it possible to see my neuroticism? What is neuroticism? What makes me neurotic? All these things that are put into me... into me in the sense of the 'me' that has... collected all this, which makes the 'me'. Can my consciousness empty all that? 克：现在，我能否——‘我’作为一个人 能否去观察一下我身上神经质的地方？ 我是否可能去看到我的神经质？ 什么是神经质？ 是什么东西让我变得神经质？它就是所有那些灌输强加给我的东西 这里的‘我’，它已经 聚集了所有这些东西——而正是这些东西组成了‘我’。 那么我的意识能否清空所有这些东西呢？
33:46 S: Your consciousness is that though. 西恩博格：可是你的意识就是这些东西。
33:51 K: Of course.

B: Is it only that? 		克：当然了。

博姆：意识就只是这些东西吗？
33:54 K: For the moment I am limiting it to that. 克：目前来说，我让意识局限于这些东西。
33:57 S: That is my consciousness. That very… the proliferation of my fragmentation... my thought is my neuroticism. What am I going to do with this... what am I going to do here, where am I going to get this... or what am I going to do there... or how am I going to - I mean this 'me' is... made out of the proliferation of these fragments. Right? 西恩博格：这就是我的意识。它是 我身上碎片的扩散增殖 我的思想就是我神经质的体现。我要怎么来处理这件事情 我要在这里做些什么？我要去哪里得到这个东西 或者我要在那里做些什么 或者我要如何去——我的意思是，这个‘我’是由 这些碎片的扩散增殖所构成的。对吗？
34:26 K: Of course. But also this means... a tremendous question, you follow? Can I, can the consciousness of man - which began 5... 10 million years ago... with all the things that have been put into it... generation after generation, generation after generation... from the beginning until now... you are asking, all that is neurotic, old boy... all that is a fragmented collection; can you take one at a time of those and look at it? Or can you take the whole of it and look? 克：当然了。但是这同样也意味着 一个巨大的问题，你跟上了吗？ 我能否，人类的意识能否——人类的意识从五百万年前 从一千万年前就已经开始了 它包含了所有一直以来被加诸于它的东西 一代又一代，一代又一代 从最初的源头一直到现在为止 而你在问的是：老朋友，所有这些都是神经质的东西 所有这些都是聚集起来的碎片； 你能够从这些东西中，一次拿出一个然后去观察它吗？ 或者，你能不能把它们作为一个整体去加以观察？
35:16 S: Yes. Can you take the whole of it and look - that's not clear. How can you take the whole of it and look? 西恩博格：是的。你能否把它们作为一个整体然后去观察它？这里我有点不太清楚。 你要如何才能把它作为一个整体去加以观察呢？
35:24 B: It seems a language problem there because you say... if you are that, how are you to look at it? 博姆：这里似乎有一个语言上的问题，因为你说 如果你就是那些东西的话，你又如何去观察它呢？
35:33 K: I'll show you in a minute - we'll go into it. 克：我马上就会来告诉你的——我们将会来探讨它。
35:35 B: No, but I meant that it is a difficulty of stating it. 博姆：不，我的意思是，要阐明它是一件困难的事。
35:39 K: Stating it - I know. It is a verbal, you know... the words are wrong, you see?

B: The words are wrong. 		克：阐明它——我明白。这是一种言语上的，你知道的 语言文字会产生错误，你明白这一点吗？

博姆：语言文字会产生错误。
35:45 S: Because the words are made by this very system… 西恩博格：因为语言文字正是这个体系所制造出来的
35:48 B: So we shouldn't take these words too literally. 博姆：所以我们不应该过于追求字面的意思。
35:50 K: Too literally, of course. 克：不能过于追求字面意思，当然了。
35:52 B: Could we say that the words can be used flexibly? 博姆：我们可以说语言文字也是可以灵活弹性地使用吗？
35:54 S: Right. Now that's a good point… 西恩博格：是的。现在，这是一个很好的切入点
35:56 K: No - the word is not the thing. 克：不，语言文字并不是它所指的东西。
35:58 S: That's right. The word is not the thing but the word points... at something much bigger than itself. 西恩博格：没错。文字并不是那个东西，但是文字代表着 某种比它所指事物本身更为广阔的东西。
36:03 K: No. The word is not the thing. It may be the big thing or the little thing... but the word is not that.

S: Not that. 		克：不。文字并不是那个东西。 它也许是很大的东西，或者很小的东西 但文字并不是它们。

西恩博格：不是它们。
36:10 B: No, but we are using words and the question is how are we... to understand them. You see they are in some way a clue... 博姆：不是它们，但是我们正在使用着文字，而问题在于我们要如何去 理解它们。你看，它们在某种程度上是一个线索
36:16 K: ...an impediment and - quite. 克：……是一种妨碍和……没错。
36:18 B: ...in some way a clue to what we are talking about... It seems to me that one trouble with the words... the way we take them... we take them to mean something very fixed, like saying... 博姆：……它在某种程度上为我们所谈论的事物提供了线索 在我看来，我们对于文字的困扰主要在于 我们使用它们的方式 我们使用文字来表达某种非常固定的事物，比如我们说
36:28 K: ...this is a chair. 克：……这是一张椅子。
36:29 B: ...this is exactly a chair. My consciousness is just so. I am the neurosis, therefore we take it very fixed. 博姆：……这毫无疑问就是一张椅子。我的意识就是这样处理它的。 我是神经病，然后我们把它当成了一个很固定的观念。
36:38 K: It's moving, it's subtle... it's much more... 克：然而事物是在运动的，它是精细微妙的……它要更加
36:41 B: It's moving and changing, therefore you can't just... exactly say I am the neurosis or I'm not the neurosis. 博姆：它是在运动和变化着的，因此你不能只是 很确定地说我是神经病，或者我不是神经病。
36:46 K: It is constantly in flux. 克：它在不断地流动变化着。
36:48 S: But he is saying something bigger which is... the fact that the very thing that we are investigating... I mean, the way we use words as the thing... is the very movement that we are investigating. That is the consciousness. 西恩博格：但是他在说的是某种更为广阔的东西，那就是 存在这样一个事实，即我们在探究的那个事物本身 我的意思是，我们使用文字来指代事物的这种做法 它就是我们此刻正在研究的活动。 那就是意识。
37:06 K: That's it. Would you repeat that once more? 克：正是如此。你能够再重复一遍吗？
37:09 S: Yes. That the very act of the word being seen... as the thing by consciousness... that very movement is the thing we must investigate. 西恩博格：可以。那就是，文字被意识视为 事物的行为本身 这种活动本身就是我们必须去研究的东西。
37:21 K: Of course, yes.

B: Yes. 		克：当然了，是的。

博姆：是的。
37:23 K: Now, can you look at it without the word? Is that possible? The word is not the thing. The word is a thought. And as a human being I realise... I am neurotic, neurotic in the sense, I believe, I live in conclusions, in memories... which are all neurotic processes. In words, pictures and reality. I believe! 克：那么，你能够不带文字地去观察它吗？ 这是否可能？ 文字并不是它所指的东西。文字只是一个思想。 作为人类的一员，我意识到 我是神经质的，这里‘神经质’的意思是 我有信仰，我生活在结论、记忆之中 而它们全都是神经质的过程。 我生活在文字之中，生活在形象和‘真实’之中。我相信它们！
38:05 S: That is how you live. 西恩博格：你就是这样生活的。
38:08 K: My belief is very real, it may be illusory... - all beliefs are illusory... but because I believe so strongly they are real to me. 克：我的信仰是非常真实的，尽管它也许是错觉 ——所有的信仰都是错觉 然而因为我的信仰是如此的坚定，以至于它们对我来说成了真实之物。
38:18 S: Right.They are very real to you. 西恩博格：没错。它们对你来说变得非常真实。
38:22 K: Very. So can I look at the nature... of the belief, how it arose - look at it? 克：非常真实。所以我能否去观察一下 信仰的本质，看看它是如何出现的——去观察一下它？
38:32 S: Look at how I am living in the world... in which I am trapped by the belief... in the word is the thing. Look at that movement. 西恩博格：去观察一下我是如何生活在这个 我在其中被信仰所捕获的世界中 这个文字即事物的世界中的。去观察那种运动。
38:41 K: Don't expand that. I understand. Just look at… You have a belief, haven't you?

S: Oh, yes. 		克：不要把它扩展开去。我知道你的意思。只要去看 你有着一种信仰，对吗？

西恩博格：噢，是的。
38:46 K: Now, look at it. Can you look at it? 克：那么，就去观察它。你能够去观察它吗？
38:51 S: I saw, this morning we were talking about the fact... that the belief is doctor - word, thing. 西恩博格：我明白，今天早上我们谈论过了这个事实 那就是信仰是一种伪造——还谈了文字和事物。
38:57 K: Don't expand it. Can you look at that fact that you have a belief? Whatever it is, god... The State is the most important, or whatever it is. 克：不要把它扩展开去。 你能够去观察一下你拥有信仰的这个事实吗？ 不管那是什么信仰：上帝 国家至上，或者无论什么。
39:13 S: Right. 西恩博格：是的。
39:14 K: Marx is newest god, or Mao and so on and so on. 克：马克思是最新出炉的上帝，或者毛泽东，等等等等。
39:23 S: But I believe it is true. 西恩博格：但是我相信它是真的。
39:26 K: No, no. Can you look at that belief? 克：不，不是。你能否去观察一下那个信仰？
39:32 S: As a belief and not as a fact. 西恩博格：把它作为一个信仰去观察，而不是作为一个事实。
39:36 K: Ah, no. It is a reality to you when you believe in it. Go to a Catholic, a Hindu, or a Marxist... 克：啊，不。当你相信它的时候，它对你来说就成了真的东西。 你可以去看看那个天主教徒、印度教徒，或者马克思主义者
39:44 S: Right. But how am I going to look at it if I really believe it? In other words, look. I say there is a god! 西恩博格：是的。但是如果我真的相信它的话，我又如何去观察它呢？ 换句话说，瞧啊，我说的确存在着上帝！
39:51 K: Right. 克：是的。
39:53 S: Now you are telling me to look at my belief in the god. 西恩博格：而现在，你让我去观察我自己对于上帝的信仰。
39:58 K: Why do you believe? Who asked you to believe? What is the necessity of god? Not that I'm an atheist - I am asking you. 克：为什么你要去信仰？是谁叫你去信仰的？ 为什么必需要有上帝？ 并不是说我是一个无神论者——我只是在问你。
40:06 S: I know it's there. God is there for me, if I believe. 西恩博格：我知道它就在那里。上帝为我而存在着，因为我相信它。
40:09 K: Then there is no investigation, you have stopped. You have blocked yourself. You have shut the door. 克：那样的话就不再会有探究了，你已经停止了脚步。 你已经封闭了你自己。你已经关上了大门。
40:14 S: That's right. So how are we going to get... you see, we have got such beliefs. 西恩博格：没错。所以我们要如何去得到 你知道，我们有着这些信仰。
40:22 K: Ask him.

B: What? 		克：去问他。

博姆：什么意思？
40:23 K: You have tried 100 times to show... to somebody who has a very strong belief... he says 'What are you talking about? This is reality'. 克：你尝试了一百次去告诉 那个有着顽固信仰的人 然而他说‘你在说些什么呢？它是真实的’。
40:32 B: Yes. That's the thing of how our word becomes reality. Can we investigate that? 博姆：是的。这就是我们的文字如何变成真实之物的过程。 我们可以来探究一下它吗？
40:38 S: How can we get at this? I think we have loads of these... unconscious beliefs that we don't really shake... like the belief in the 'me'. 西恩博格：我们要如何才能理解它呢？我认为我们有着一大堆这类 无意识的信仰，我们并没有真正地摆脱掉它们 比如对‘我’的信仰。
40:48 K: He is asking some other question. 克：他在问另一个问题。
40:51 B: How thought or the word becomes the sense of reality… 博姆：思想或者说文字是如何变得让人感觉真实的
40:56 K: Why words have become realities? 克：为什么文字会变成真实？
40:59 B: I think a deeper question is how the mind sets up... the sense of reality. If I look at things I may think... they are real, sometimes mistakenly, that's an illusion... but when it comes to… even with objects you can say a word... and it seems real when you describe it that way. And therefore in some way... the word sets up in the brain a construction of reality. Then everything is referred to that construction of reality. 博姆：我认为更深层的问题是头脑是如何建立起 这种真实感的。 要是我观察那些事物的话，我或许会认为 它们是真实的，但我有时候会弄错，因为那是一种错觉 然而当它是有关于 即使是对于那些目标对象，你可以说文字 看起来似乎是真实的——如果你以那种方式去描述它的话。 因此，从某种意义上来说 是文字在大脑中建立了那种真实性的结构。 然后将一切事物都归类到那个真实性的结构中去。
41:29 S: How am I to investigate that? 西恩博格：那么我要如何去探究它呢？
41:32 K: What created that reality? Would you say everything that thought has created... is reality, except nature? 克：是什么创造出了那种真实性？ 你会说除了自然，思想所制造出来的一切 都是真实吗？
41:51 B: Thought didn't create nature.

K: Of course, not. 		博姆：自然并不是思想所创造的。

克：当然不是了。
41:53 B: But I meant... Can't we put it that thought can describe nature. 博姆：但我的意思是 我们是不是可以说，思想能够去描述自然。
41:57 K: Yes, thought can describe nature - poetry, all the rest of it. 克：是的，思想可以去描述自然——用诗歌等等各种方式去描述它。
42:00 B: And also measure it. 博姆：它也可以去度量它。
42:02 K: Imagination - all the rest of it. Can we say, thought... whatever it has put together, is reality? The chair, the table... all these electric lights; It hasn't created nature, but it can describe it. 克：去想象它，等等这些。 那么我们能否说，对于思想而言 无论什么它所组合起来的东西，都是真实？ 这张椅子，这张桌子 所有这些电灯 思想并没有创造出自然，但是它可以描述自然。
42:24 B: And also make theories about it. 博姆：也可以创造出关于自然的理论。
42:26 K: Make theories and all the rest of it. And also, the illusion that it has created is a reality. 克：创造出种种理论，所有这些事情。 此外，它所创造出来的幻觉也成了一种真实。
42:35 S: Right. 西恩博格：没错。
42:37 B: But isn't it to a certain extent... this construction of reality has its place... because, if I feel that the table is real... although the brain has constructed that, it's OK. But at some stage we construct realities that are not there. We can see this sometimes in the shadows on a dark night... constructing realities that are not there. 博姆：但是从某种程度上而言 这种真实性的结构是不是也有它的位置 因为，比如我会觉得这张桌子是真实的 尽管是大脑构建了它，但这并没有什么问题。 然而在某些情况下，我们会去构建那些并不存在的‘真实’。 有时候，当我们看到黑夜的影子时，就会发现这样的情况 我们会构建出并不存在于那里的真实之物。
43:00 K: Fear that there is a man there. 克：我们会害怕那里有一个人。
43:02 B: Yes. Also all sorts of tricks and illusions are possible... by conjurors and so on. But then it goes further and we say that mentally... we construct a psychological reality… 博姆：是的。此外，所有各种把戏和错觉都有可能 通过戏法等等这些东西而产生。 然后它又更进了一步，我们说在精神上 我们也构建了一种心理上的真实
43:14 K: That's where it comes. 克：它就是由此而来的。
43:16 B: …which seems intensely real, very strong. But it seems to me the question is... what is it that thought does to give that sense... of reality, to construct reality? 博姆：……它看起来无比的真实，极其强大。 但是在我看来，问题在于 思想做了些什么从而带来了那种 真实感，它做了什么由此而构建了真实？
43:29 K: What does thought do, bring about, to create that reality? 克：思想做了什么，带来了什么，从而创造出了那种真实？
43:35 S: Yes. Like if you talk to someone who believes in god... they say to you that is real... that it's really there, it is not a construction. And if you talk to somebody who really believes in their self... I have talked to many people and you have been talking... to the psychotherapists, they say that the self is real... that it exists, it's a thing. You heard a man once say, a psychotherapist says... to Krishnaji, 'We know the ego exists'... 'We got a theory - it exists'. 西恩博格：是的。就像如果你和某个相信上帝的人谈话 他们会对你说那是真实的 它真的存在着，并不是某种构建出来的东西。 要是你和某个十分相信他的自我的人交谈一下 我曾经和很多人交谈过，而你也曾经和 那些心理治疗师交流过，他们说那个自我是真实的 它是存在的，它是一个实在的东西。 你听到曾经有个人说过，一个心理治疗师对 克里希纳吉说，‘我们知道自我是存在的’ ‘我们有这么一种理论——它是存在的’。
44:08 B: Well, it is not only that, I think people have felt its reality... what happens is that the illusion builds up very fast; once you construct the reality, all sorts of events... are referred to it as if they were coming from that reality... it builds up a tremendous structure... a cloud around it of support. 博姆：是的，不仅如此，我认为人们也感受到了它的真实性 而发生的情况就是，那种错觉会飞快地建立起来； 一旦你构建起了那种真实，那么各种各样的事件 都会指向它，仿佛它们是来自于那个真实一样 它在自己的周围建立起了一个巨大的结构 一片阴云，来支持它自己。
44:26 S: So how am I to investigate my reality-making mechanism? 西恩博格：那么，我又怎么去探究我的这种‘制造真实’的手法呢？
44:29 K: Wait. We have 5 minutes more. So let's come to it. What are we doing now?

S: We're moving. It's moving. 		克：等一下。我们还有五分钟了。所以，就让我们来探讨一下它吧。 我们现在在做什么？

西恩博格：我们正在活动。它在活动。
44:40 K: What are we doing? We have said... no authority, nobody can say to another... 'This is the right thing to do'. We are trying to find out... what is the correct action in life. I can only find that out... if there is no disorder in me. 'Me' is the disorder. 克：我们正在做什么事？我们曾说过 没有任何权威，没有人可以对另一个人说 ‘这样做才是对的’。而我们正在试着去发现 在生活中，正确的行动是什么。 想要去发现这一点 只有当我内心没有混乱时才可能。 ‘我’就是混乱。
45:07 S: Right. That's right. 西恩博格：对。没错。
45:10 K: However real that 'me' is, that is the source of disorder. 克：不管那个‘我’是多么的真实，它都是混乱的根源。
45:14 S: Right. 西恩博格：是的。
45:16 K: Because that separates, that divides... - me and you and we and they... my nation, my god - me. Now, we are asking… With its consciousness... Can that consciousness be aware of itself? Aware like thought thinking. 克：因为它造成了分离，它带来了分裂 ——我和你，我们和他们 我的国家，我的上帝——我。 现在，我们在问……凭借着它的意识 那种意识能够觉察它自身吗？ 去觉察……比如说去觉察思想的思考。
45:50 B: Thinking about itself? 博姆：思考它自己吗？
45:51 K: Thought can… Put it very simply, Can thought be aware of its own movement? 克：思想可以……非常简单地说就是， 思想能够觉察到其自身的运动吗？
46:00 B: Yes.

S: That's the question. 		博姆：嗯。

西恩博格：就是这个问题。
46:01 B: That's the question. Could we say a self-reference... of thought… Thought understanding... its own structure and its own movement. 博姆：就是这个问题。 我们能否说思想的自我指涉 思想能了解 其自身的结构和运动。
46:09 S: Its own movement. But is that thought that is aware of itself? Or is it something else?

K: Try it! Try it! 		西恩博格：它自身的运动。但那是思想在觉察它自己吗？ 还是说是其他什么东西？

克：试一下！去尝试一下！
46:16 S: Try that.

K: Do it now, 4 minutes you have! Do it now. Whether you can be aware of your - not you... whether thought can be aware of itself. Of its movement. 		西恩博格：去试一下它。

克：现在就去试一下，你们还剩下四分钟！ 现在就去这样做。 你是否可以觉察到你的——不是你 思想是否可以觉察到它自身？ 觉察到它自己的运动。
47:00 S: It stops. 西恩博格：思想会停止。
47:03 K: What does that mean? 克：这是什么意思？
47:06 S: It means what it says, it stops, that it can't be that with the observation of thought, thought stops. 西恩博格：意思就是我话的意思，它停止了，它不会再 也就是借助对思想的观察，思想就停止了。
47:20 K: No - don't put it that way.

S: How would you put it? 		克：不，不要这样说。

西恩博格：那你会怎么说呢？
47:25 K: It is undergoing a radical change. 克：思想会经历一次彻底的改变。
47:30 B: So the word thought is not a fixed thing. 博姆：所以‘思想’这个词并不是一个固定的东西。
47:33 K: No.

S: The word thought… 		克：它不是固定的。

西恩博格：‘思想’这个词
47:35 B: …does not mean a fixed thing. But it can change, right? 博姆：……并不意味着一个固定的东西。它是可以改变的，对吗？
47:38 K: Right.

B: In perception. 		克：对。

博姆：在觉知中改变。
47:43 K: You have told me, other scientists... have told me, in the very observation... through a microscope, the object undergoes a change. 克：你曾经告诉过我，其他科学家 曾经告诉过我，当你通过显微镜去观察时， 会发现观察的对象正在改变着。
47:51 B: In the quantum theory the object is... cannot be fixed apart from the act of observation. 博姆：在量子理论中，客体 在没有观察的行动下，就无法固定下来。
47:58 S: This is true with patients in psychoanalysis. Being with the patient, they change automatically. 西恩博格：对于精神分析中的病人来说也是如此。 当你和病人待在一起时，他们自然而然就会改变了。
48:03 K: Forget the patient, you are the patient! 克：忘掉病人吧，你就是病人！
48:05 S: I'm the patient. It changes. 西恩博格：我就是病人。它会改变。
48:08 K: No, no. 克：不，不是。
48:12 S: It stops. 西恩博格：它会停止。
48:13 K: What takes place when thought is aware of itself? Sir, this is an extraordinarily important thing. 克：当思想觉察到它自己以后，会发生什么？ 先生，这是一件无比重要的事情。
48:33 B: Yes. 博姆：是的。
48:37 K: That is, can the doer be aware of his doing? Can I move this vase from here to there... can I be aware of that - moving? 克：那就是，行动者能否觉察到他的行动？ 我把这个花瓶从这里移动到那里 我能否觉察到它——觉察到这种移动？
48:58 S: Yes. 西恩博格：嗯。
48:59 K: I can physically. That's fairly simple. I stretch out the arm and so on and so on. 克：我可以觉察到身体上的活动。这是很简单的。 我伸出了手臂，等等等等。
49:04 S: Yes. 西恩博格：是的。
49:05 K: But is there an awareness of thought which says... yes, thought is aware of itself... its movement, its activity, its structure... its nature, what it has created... what it has done in the world, the misery... all the rest of it? 克：但是我们能否觉察到思想，觉察到它在说 是的，思想去觉察它自己 觉察它的运动，它的活动，它的结构 它的本质，觉察它所创造出来的东西 觉察它对这个世界所造成的影响，那些痛苦不幸 等等这些东西？
49:27 S: Is there an awareness of the doing of the brain? Let me ask you something? Why do you think you can be aware of... 西恩博格：是否可以觉察到大脑的所作所为？ 我想问你一些东西？ 为什么你会觉得你能够觉察到
49:44 K: Time. 克：时间到了。
49:46 S: I want to save that question for tomorrow. 西恩博格：我想还是把这个问题留到明天吧。