克里希那穆提 - 在那份独自中，你会有彻底的安全

Krishnamurti Subtitles

BR76CTM4 - 在那份独自中，你会有彻底的安全
与博姆和西恩博格的第四次探讨
英国，布洛克伍德
1976年5月19日

0:09	K: I don't think we answered yesterday the question... why human beings live the way they are living. I don't think we went into it sufficiently deeply. Did we answer it?	克：我想我们昨天还没有回答这个问题那就是为什么人类要以现在这样的方式去生活。我觉得我们还没有足够深入地探讨它。我们回答它了吗？
0:29	S: We got to a point… we never answered that question. I left here feeling…	西恩博格：我们探讨到了一定的程度……但我们从未回答这个问题。我之前留下了一个问题，我觉得
0:35	K: No, I was thinking about it last night... I mean this morning rather... and it struck me that we hadn't answered it fully. We went into the question of 'Can thought observe itself'?	克：不，昨天晚上我在思考它我想更确切的说是今天早上然后我突然想到，我们还未充分地回答它。我们进入了这个问题：‘思想能够观察它自己’？
0:48	S: Right. B: Yes.	西恩博格：对。博姆：是的。
0:51	K: But I think we ought to answer that question.	克：但我觉得我们应该来回答一下这个问题。
0:54	B: But I think that what we said was on the way to answering it. It was relevant to the answer.	博姆：我倒是觉得我们之前所说的东西，它们将会对这个问题作出回答。它们涉及到了那个答案。
1:00	K: Yes, relevant. But it's not complete.	克：是的，涉及到了答案。但它还不完整。
1:02	B: Yes.	博姆：是的。
1:05	S: No, it's not complete, it doesn't get hold of that issue... why do people live the way they do... and why don't they change? Why, knowing this, they don't change.	西恩博格：是的，它并不完整，它并没有抓住问题的要领为什么人们要这样去生活为什么他们不去改变？为什么？虽然知道这些，但他们还是不改变。
1:16	K: Yes. Could we go into that a little bit before we go on with…	克：是的。我们能否稍微来深入一下它，然后再继续开始
1:24	S: Well, my immediate answer to that question was... that they like it, that it provides... we came up against that and sort of pulled away...	西恩博格：嗯，对于这个问题，我立即的回答就是他们喜欢它，因为它提供了我们开始的时候是反对它的，想要挣脱它
1:34	K: I think it's much deeper than that, don't you? Because what is involved... ...economically, if you… if one actually transformed one's conditioning... the way one lives… economically you might find yourself... in a very difficult position. S: Right.	克：我觉得它要比这深入的多，你没觉得吗？因为这其中涉及了…………从经济角度来说，如果你如果你真的去转变了你的种种制约转变了你的生活方式那么你会发现自己也许在经济上处于一个很困难的境地。西恩博格：没错。
2:03	K: And also, it's going against the current. Completely against the current.	克：此外，它也是逆潮流而行的。它是完全与主流相反的。
2:11	B: Are you saying that it might lead... to a certain objective insecurity?	博姆：你是不是在说，它或许会导致某种客观意义上的不安全？
2:15	K: Objective insecurity.	克：客观意义上的不安全。
2:17	B: It's not merely a matter of the imagination.	博姆：它并不仅仅是一件想象的事情。
2:18	K: No, actual insecurity.	克：是的，那是一种实际意义上的不安全。
2:21	B: Because a lot of things we were discussing yesterday... was some illusion of security or insecurity... but in addition there is some genuine...	博姆：因为我们昨天所讨论的东西，很多都是某种安全或者不安全的错觉然而除此之外，还有着某种真实的
2:28	K: ...genuine insecurity. B: ...insecurity.	克：……真实的不安全。博姆：……不安全。
2:32	K: And also, doesn't it imply that you have to stand alone.	克：此外，它是不是也暗示了你必须要独立自主？
2:40	S: It definitely… you would be in a new… You would be in a totally different... position because you wouldn't be...	西恩博格：它很清楚地表明……你将会处于一个新的你将会处于一个完全不同的位置，因为你不再会去
2:49	K: It's like, completely... - not isolated - away from the stream. And that means that you have to be alone... psychologically alone... and whether human beings can stand that.	克：它就像是，完全地……——但并非孤立隔绝—— 脱离那个主流。而这意味着你必须要独立心理上的独立那么人类是否可以承受它呢。
3:11	S: Certainly this other is completely to be together.	西恩博格：毫无疑问，另外一个就是完全聚集在一起。
3:14	K: That is herd instinct, which all the totalitarian people use... and also everything is together... be with people, don't be alone.	克：那就是‘群居本能’——所有极权主义者都会使用这个词同样也包括把所有事物聚集在一起要随大流，不要特立独行。
3:27	S: Be like them, be with them… It's all based on competition... in some way, I am better than you...	西恩博格：和别人一样，和大家在一起在某种程度上，它全都是建立在竞争之上的我比你更加好
3:36	K: Of course, of course. All the Olympiad is all that.	克：当然了，当然了。所有的奥运会都是如此。
3:39	B: Well, it's unclear because... in some sense we should be together... but not in that sense... K: Of course.	博姆：不过，我还是有点不太清楚，因为从某种意义上来说，我们应该要在一起但是就另一种意义而言则不是这样了…… 克：当然了。
3:46	B: Society, it seems to me, is giving us... some false sense of togetherness... which is really fragmentation.	博姆：在我看来，社会给予了我们某种虚假的归属感而这种归属感其实是一种分裂。
3:53	K: Yes, quite right.	克：是的，完全正确。
3:54	B: But it's called being together. It makes you feel that way, for a moment.	博姆：但是它却被称之为‘团结在一起’。它会暂时让你产生这样的感觉。
4:00	K: So would you say, one of the main reasons... that human beings don't want to... radically transform themselves... is that they are really frightened... of not to belong to a group... to a herd, to something definite... which implies standing completely alone? And I think from that aloneness you can only co-operate... not the other way round.	克：所以，你会不会说导致人类不想去彻底转变自己的主要原因之一就是他们其实很害怕不能够隶属于某个团体某个群体，某个明确肯定的事物 ——因为这意味着完全的独立？然而我认为只有从这种独立之中，你们才能够去合作而不是反过来。
4:33	S: Certainly, empirically, people don't like... to be different, that we know, and empirically they…	西恩博格：毫无疑问，从实证的角度来讲，人们并不喜欢变得和大家不一样，我们清楚这一点，从实证的角度来讲，他们
4:44	K: You must have seen on the television... Chinese boys training, the Russians... all the eastern satellite people... all of them training, training, never alone.	克：你一定曾经在电视上看到过中国孩子的训练培养，还有俄国人的所有东方的那些附庸国的人们他们所有人都在不断地训练、训练，他们从没有独立过。
5:01	S: Right. B: Yes.	西恩博格：没错。博姆：是的。
5:04	K: I once talked to a FBI man. He came to see me and he said... 'Why is it that you walk alone all the time? Why are you so much alone? I see you among the hills walking alone… why?' You follow? He thought, that's very disturbing.	克：我曾经与一位FBI人员聊过。他过来见我，然后对我说 ‘为什么一直以来，你都是一个人散步？为什么你是这么的独来独往？我看见你在山间独自散步……为什么呢？’ 你们跟上了吗？他觉得这是非常令人烦扰的。
5:30	B: I think, even anthropologists find that... in more primitive people... the sense of belonging to the tribe... is even stronger. They feel completely lost... their entire psychological structure... depends on being in the tribe.	博姆：我想，即使是人类学家也发现了在更原始的人类中就已有了这种部落宗族的归属感这种归属感甚至更为强烈。他们会觉得自己彻底消失在了他们整个的心理结构都依赖于这种对部落的归属。
5:45	K: And I think, that is one of the reasons why... we don't want to... we are frightened! After all, cling to the misery that you already know... than come into another kind of misery that you don't know.	克：而我认为，这就是原因之一，它解释了为什么我们不想去因为我们害怕！毕竟，抓着那些已知的痛苦要比进入另一种你未知的痛苦要好一些。
6:02	S: That's right. But there is a whole action/reaction scheme. That is, by being with others... K: ...you're safe.	西恩博格：没错。不过这里有着一整个行动/反应的诡计。也就是，如果你和别人在一起…… 克：……那你就是安全的。
6:13	S: ...you're safe. And you're… it even goes further, there is an action... it's almost as if you could say that being with others... is the off-shoot of always living from... 'you're this, I compare myself with you and therefore... I'm together with you', sort of as the afterthought. You know what I mean? That is part of the circle.	西恩博格：……你是安全的。并且你它甚至可以更进一步，存在着一种行动它就像是你可以说，和别人在一起是一个分支，它来自于你总是生活在 ‘你是这样的，我拿自己与你比较，因此我就与你同在了’。它是某种事后想法。你明白我的意思吗？它是循环中的一部分。
6:41	B: Even if you leave off comparison... I think there is something deeper... in the sense that people feel this... togetherness, this sense of belonging... to the group, even if they are not comparing... they just feel it's safe, they will be taken care of... like your mother may have taken care of you... you are sort of gently supported, that fundamentally... it'll be all right because the group is large, it's wise... it knows what to do. I think there is a feeling like that, rather deep. The church may give that feeling.	博姆：但即使你停止了比较我觉得还是存在着某种更深刻的东西它的意思就是人们会觉得这种在一起的感觉，这种归属于某个团体的感觉，即使他们不去比较他们可能只是觉得这很安全，他们会得到照顾就像你的母亲会照顾你一样你就像是得到了温柔的支持，从根本上来说这是很稳当的，因为那个团体很庞大，它很聪明它知道该怎么做。我认为存在着一种类似这样的感觉，它是相当深层的。教会就可以带给你这种感觉。
7:16	K: Yes. You've seen those animal pictures? They are always in herds.	克：是的。你曾经看过那些动物的照片吗？它们总是成群结队的。
7:25	S: Except the mountain lion. Did you ever read about the lion? There have been some studies done... by this fellow Shaller, in which he shows that the lion… always, in lion groups... there is always one who goes off alone.	西恩博格：除了美洲狮以外。你曾经阅读过关于狮子的东西吗？有一个叫山勒的家伙曾经进行过一些研究他的研究显示狮子中总是会有在狮子的群体中总是会有一头狮子是独来独往的。
7:40	K: Yes… S: You have read about that?	克：是的…… 西恩博格：你曾经读到过这样的内容吗？
7:42	K: I've heard about it. B: Anyway, the cats are not…	克：我曾经听说过它。博姆：不管怎样，猫类动物并不是
7:46	K: The feeling of aloneness is much more... - it has got a great deal in it. It isn't just - I say, it is not isolation.	克：那种独立感要更加 ——它里面包含了大量的内容。它并不只是——我想说，它并不是孤立。
7:58	S: Right.	西恩博格：对。
8:00	B: But, I was asking, people are seeking... that sense that from the group you have... some support from the whole. K: Of course.	博姆：但是，我在问的是，人们在寻找这样一种感觉：那就是从团体中，你可以获得某种来自于那整个团体的支持。克：当然了。
8:09	B: Now, isn't it possible that you are discussing an aloneness... in which you have a certain security? People are seeking in the group a kind of security... it seems to me, that can arise actually only in aloneness.	博姆：现在，你是不是可以来论述一下那种独立在这种独立中，你将会拥有某种安全？人们在团体中寻找着某种安全然而在我看来，这种安全实际上只有在独立中才会产生。
8:24	K: Yes, that's right. In aloneness you can be completely secure.	克：是的，没错。在独立中，你才能够彻底的安全。
8:28	B: I wonder if we could discuss that because it seems... there is an illusion there... people sense that you might feel that you should... have a sense of security. K: Quite.	博姆：我想我们是否可以来讨论一下它，因为看起来这里似乎存在着一种错觉人们会觉得说，你也许会觉得自己应该要有一种安全感。克：没错。
8:38	B: And they are looking for it in a group, the group being... representative of something universal.	博姆：而人们会在团体中寻找这种安全感，团体代表了某种普适性的事物。
8:44	K: The group is not the universal.	克：团体可不是普适性的。
8:46	B: It isn't, but that's the way we think of it.	博姆：它不是，但我们是这样来看待它的。
8:48	K: Of course.	克：是的。
8:49	B: The little child thinks the tribe is the whole world.	博姆：小孩子会觉得家庭就是整个世界。
8:52	K: I mean, a human being as he lives this way... if he transforms himself, he becomes alone, he is alone. that aloneness is not isolation... and therefore it's a form of supreme intelligence.	克：我的意思是，当一个人以这种方式去生活如果他转变了自己，他就会变得独立，他是独立的。这种独立并不是孤立因此它是一种至高的智慧。
9:16	B: Yes, but could you go into that a little further... about it not being isolation... because at first when you say alone... the feeling is that I'm here, entirely apart. Right?	博姆：是的，但是你能否稍微深入地来谈一下它解释一下它为什么不是孤立因为当你一开始说到独立的时候给人的感觉就是，我在这里，我是完全分离的。对吗？
9:25	K: It is not apart, no. B: That perhaps...	克：它并不是分离，不是的。博姆：但也许
9:28	S: What do you think it is that a person experiences? There is one part of it that all people seem to gravitate... they have to be together, they have to be like other people. What would change that? That's one question. What would change anybody from that? And 2nd of all, why should anybody change from that? And 3rd of all, what does such a person... experience when they are alone? They experience isolation.	西恩博格：你觉得那个人会有怎样的体验？其中一部分是，所有的人似乎都倾向于去他们必须要在一起，他们必须要像其他人一样。那么什么东西可以改变它呢？这是一个问题。什么东西可以改变一个人脱离这种情况呢？第二个问题就是，为什么我们要改变这种情况？第三个问题：当某人变得独立时，这个人将会体验到一些什么东西？他们体验到的是孤立。
10:04	K: I thought we dealt with that fairly... thoroughly the other day. After all, when one realises... the appalling state of the world... and oneself - the disorder, the confusion, the misery... and all the rest of it, and when one says... there must be a total change... a total transformation, he has already begun... to move away from all that.	克：我想我们前几天的时候，就已经很彻底地处理了这些问题。毕竟，如果一个人意识到了这个世界的可怕现状并且认清了自己——混乱、困惑、痛苦不堪等等这些东西，那么这时他就会说必须要有一种彻底的改变了一种彻底的转变，那么他就已经开始在脱离所有那些东西了。
10:35	S: Right. But here he is altogether, being together.	西恩博格：是的。但是在这里，他完全是和别人在一起的。
10:44	K: No. Being together, what does it really mean?	克：不。‘在一起’——它真正的意思是什么？
10:47	S: I mean being in this group. K: Yes, what does it really mean?	西恩博格：我的意思是待在这个团体中。克：是的，但它真正的含义是什么？
10:51	S: Being together is different from this having to be...	西恩博格：‘在一起’是不同于那种变得
10:54	K: No. Identifying oneself with a group, and remain with a group... what does it mean? What is involved in it?	克：不对。将自己认同于那个团体，并且归属于某个团体这是什么意思？这其中包含了些什么？
11:03	S: That's right, what is involved in it. I think... one of the things that's involved in it... is what I said before. It sets up this comparison.	西恩博格：没错，它里面包含了什么呢？我认为其中一个包含的东西就是我之前说过的。它建立起了这种比较。
11:11	K: No, no, apart from all that superficiality... what is involved in it? The group is me. I'm the group.	克：不，不是，抛开所有这些肤浅表面的东西它包含了些什么？那个团体就是我。我就是那个团体。
11:21	K: So therefore… It's like co-operating with myself.	克：因此，那就像是在与我自己合作。
11:27	B: I think you could say like... Descartes said 'I think, therefore I am'. Meaning that I think implies that I am there. 'I am in the group, therefore I am'. That's the sort of if I am not in the group, where am I?	博姆：我认为你可以像笛卡尔那样去表达笛卡尔说过‘我思，故我在’。它的意思是我思考就意味着我在那里。 ‘我在这个团体中，因此我存在’。这多少有点类似要是我不在这个团体中的话，我又在哪里呢？
11:38	K: Yes. B: In other words... I have no being at all. That's really the condition... of the primitive tribe, for most of the members anyway. So there is something deep there... because I feel that my very existence... my being psychologically... is implied in being first in the group. The group has made me. Everything about me has come from the group. Do you see? I say 'I am nothing without the group.'	克：是的。博姆：换句话说我不复存在了。这其实就是原始部落的情况，无论如何，对大部分的成员来说都是如此。所以这里存在着一些更为深刻的东西因为我会觉得我的存在我心理上的存在意味着我首先要处在那个团体中。那个团体造就了我。和我有关的一切都来自于那个团体。你看到这一点了吗？我会说‘离开了团体，我就一无是处了。’
12:08	K: Yes, quite right. I am the group, in fact.	克：是的，非常正确。事实上，我就是那个团体。
12:10	S: Right.	西恩博格：没错。
12:11	B: Therefore, if I am out of the group... I feel everything is collapsing. That seems to me is deeper than the question of competing... who is the chief, or who is the big shot or...	博姆：因此，要是我脱离了那个团体我会觉得一切都完了。在我看来，这要比竞争比较的问题更深入一些比如谁是首领，谁是大人物之类的
12:24	S: Right. B: That's a secondary affair.	西恩博格：是的。博姆：那些都是次要的东西。
12:27	S: Except that I wasn't really saying that... that was important so much... as I was saying that the very action... what I am trying to get at is some... of the moment to moment experience... of being in the group, which is occupied.	西恩博格：不过我实际上并没有说那是非常重要的就如我之前说的，那个行动本身我所试图表达的是某种一刻接一刻的处在那个团体中的体验，即被它所占据。
12:41	B: Could I say that... the more striking thing is what happens when... such a person is taken out of the group and he feels lost. In other words, all that stuff seems unimportant... because he doesn't know where he is.	博姆：我能不能说更显而易见的是当这个人被赶出团体以后所发生的事情，他会感到迷失。换句话说，所有那些东西看起来都不重要了因为他不知道自己在哪里了。
12:52	S: Right. He doesn't know... he has no orientation.	西恩博格：是的。他不知道……他失去了方向。
12:56	B: To life or to anything. S: Right.	博姆：失去了生活的方向，或者任何事情的方向。西恩博格：没错。
13:01	B: And therefore, the greatest punishment... that the group could make would be to banish him.	博姆：因此，来自于团体的最大的惩罚就是将他驱逐出团体。
13:07	K: Yes, they used to do that. S: Oh, yes.	克：是的，人们常常这样做。西恩博格：哦，是的。
13:09	K: Look what's happening in Russia, when there is a dissenter... he's banished. S: Right, right.	克：看看苏俄正在发生的事情，当有了一个反对者以后他们就会驱逐他。西恩博格：是的，是的。
13:15	K: Solzhenitsyn and Sakharov and all those people... are against the group.	克：索尔仁尼琴、萨哈罗夫等等这些人都在反对他们身处的团体。
13:20	S: Right. Right.	西恩博格：是的，没错。
13:22	B: Because such a banishment sort of robs him of his being... it is almost like killing him, you see.	博姆：因为这种驱逐某种程度上使他丧失了自己的存在你知道，它几乎就像是杀死了他。
13:27	K: Of course. I think that's where it is, the fear of being alone... alone is translated as being isolated from all this.	克：是的。我认为惧怕独立的原因就在于此 ‘独立’被诠释成与所有那些事物隔离。
13:43	B: Could we say from the universal? The false universal.	博姆：我们能否说是与普遍性事物隔离？那种错误的普遍性。
13:46	K: Yes, from the universal.	克：是的，与普遍性事物隔离。
13:49	B: It seems to me you are implying that if you are really alone... genuinely alone, then you are not isolated from the universe.	博姆：在我看来，你在暗示的是，如果你确实独立了真正的独立了，那么你与那些普遍事物并不是隔离的。
13:54	K: Absolutely not - on the contrary! S: That's what he's saying.	克：完全正确——而且是恰恰相反的！西恩博格：这就是他在说的东西。
13:58	B: That's what he's saying, but I mean… therefore we have to be free of this false universal first.	博姆：这就是他在说的东西。但我的意思是这样的话，我们就必须首先摆脱那种错误的普遍性事物。
14:03	S: This false identification… B: With the group.	西恩博格：那种错误的认同感…… 博姆：与那个团体相认同。
14:05	S: …identification with the group.	西恩博格：……认同于那个团体。
14:07	B: Identification of the group as the universal, you see. Treating the group as if it were the universal support... of my being, or something.	博姆：将那个团体认同为普遍性的事物，你明白的。将那个团体视为仿佛是我存在或者某些其他事物的全部支撑。
14:15	S: Right. There is something more to that. What's being said is that… When that localised identification... that I am the group, that 'me'... that false security is dropped, then one is opened up... to the participation in... B: In something.	西恩博格：是的。它还包含了更多的内容。他所说的东西就是当那种局限性的认同即我就是那个团体，那个‘我’ 当那种错误的安全感被丢弃以后，那个人就可以打开自己从而参与到…… 博姆：某个事物中去。
14:35	K: No, there is no question of participation... - you are the universe.	克：不，这里并不存在参与的问题 ——你就是那个普遍性的事物。
14:38	S: You are that.	西恩博格：你就是那个东西。
14:40	B: I can remember as a child I felt that... I was in a certain town... I felt that was the whole universe... then I heard of another town beyond that which seemed... almost beyond the universe and it seemed... that must be the ultimate limits of all reality. So the idea of going beyond that... would not have occurred to me. And I think that's the way that the group is treated. We know abstractly it's not so... but in the feeling that you have... it's like the little child.	博姆：我回想起当我还是小孩子的时候，我就有这样的感觉我在某个小镇里我会觉得那就是整个世界然后我听说了除此之外的另一个小镇，它看起来就像是超出这个世界的东西，看起来所有的现实之物都必定会有一个最终的边界。所以那种‘超越它’的念头不会在我身上出现。我想这就是我们看待团体的方式。我们可以从理论上知道它并非如此但是就你的感觉而言它就像是小孩子的那种感觉。
15:09	K: Therefore, is it that human beings love or… hold on to their own misery... confusion, and all the rest of it... because they don't know anything else?	克：因此，人类之所以喜爱或者说执著于他们自己的痛苦困惑，等等这些东西是不是因为他们并不知道还有其他的东西？
15:30	K: The known is safer than the unknown.	克：已知的事物要比未知的事物更加安全。
15:33	S: Right. The known… yes.	西恩博格：没错。已知的东西……是这样的。
15:39	K: Now, to be alone implies, doesn't it... to step out of the stream.	克：所以，变得独立就意味着走出那股洪流，不是吗？
15:48	S: Out of the known.	西恩博格：走出已知的事物。
15:50	K: Step out of the stream of this... utter confusion, disorder, sorrow... despair, hope, travail, all that... - to step out of all that.	克：走出这股充满着彻底的困惑、混乱、悲伤绝望、希望、艰辛，所有这些东西……——离开所有这一切。
16:00	S: Right.	西恩博格：嗯。
16:04	K: And if you want to go much deeper into that... to be alone implies, doesn't it... not to carry the burden of tradition with you at all.	克：要是你想要更深入它的话变得独立就意味着你身上不带着任何一点传统的负担，不是吗？
16:21	B: Tradition being the group, then.	博姆：所以说，传统就是团体。
16:23	K: Group. Tradition also being knowledge.	克：它就是团体。传统同样也是知识。
16:26	B: Knowledge, but it comes basically from the group. Knowledge is basically collective. K: Collective.	博姆：它是知识，知识主要来自于团体。知识从根本上说是集体的。克：它是集体的。
16:31	B: It is collected by everybody.	博姆：它是由每一个人收集起来的。
16:37	K: So to be alone implies total freedom. And when there is that great freedom, it's the universe.	克：所以变得独立就意味着完全的自由。当有了那种巨大的自由时，它就是宇宙了。
16:51	B: Could we go into that further because, to a person... who hasn't seen this, it doesn't look obvious.	博姆：我们能否来进一步探讨它，因为对于一个还未看到这一点的人来说，它并不是那么显而易见的。
17:00	S: It doesn't look obvious - I think, David is right there. To a person, to most people, I think... and I have tested this out recently... that the idea, or even... the deep feeling that you are the universe... that you don't have to do anything, that seems to be...	西恩博格：它并不是显而易见的——我觉得这一点大卫说的没错。对某人来说，对大部分人来说，我认为我最近试验了一下它发现那种想法，甚至是那种 ‘你就是宇宙’ ‘你不需要再去做什么’的深刻感受，那看起来似乎也是
17:25	K: Ah, sir, that's the most dangerous thing. That's the most dangerous thing to say. How can you say you are the universe... when you are in total confusion? When you are unhappy, miserable... anxious, jealous, envious, all that - how can you say... you are the universe? Universe implies total order.	克：啊，先生，这是最危险的事情。这样说是最危险的。你又怎么能够说你就是宇宙呢？因为你还处在彻底的困惑之中，你仍旧是不快乐的、苦恼的焦虑的、妒忌的、嫉妒的，等等这些——所以你又怎么能说你是宇宙呢？宇宙就意味着完全的秩序。
17:56	B: Yes, the cosmos in Greek meant order.	博姆：是的，‘和谐（cosmos）’在希腊语中的意思就是‘秩序’。
17:58	K: Order, of course. B: And chaos was the opposite.	克：当然了，它是秩序。博姆：而它的反面就是混乱（chaos）。
18:01	K: Yes. S: But I...	克：是的。西恩博格：但是我
18:03	K: No, listen, universe, cosmos, means order.	克：不，请听好，宇宙、和谐（cosmos），它们意味着秩序。
18:08	S: Right. B: And chaos is what we have.	西恩博格：嗯。博姆：而我们所拥有的是混乱。
18:11	K: Chaos is what we live with. S: That's right.	克：混乱与我们同在。西恩博格：没错。
18:14	K: How can I think I have universal order in me? That's the good old trick... of the mind which says... 'Disorder is there, but inside you... there is perfect order, old boy'. That's an illusion. It's a concept which thought has put there... and it gives me a certain hope... and therefore it's an illusion, it has no reality. What has actual reality is my confusion.	克：我又怎么能认为我内在拥有着宇宙的秩序呢？这是头脑的一个很巧妙的老套的诡计头脑说 ‘老朋友，混乱存在着，但是在你里面有着完美的秩序’。这是一种幻想。这是思想所提出来的一个概念它带给了我某种希望因此，它是一个幻想，它并不真实。真实的现状是我的困惑。
18:54	S: Right.	西恩博格：没错。
18:56	K: My chaos. And I can imagine, I can project a cosmos.	克：我的混乱。我可以去想象，我可以投射出一个‘和谐’。
19:04	S: Right.	西恩博格：嗯。
19:06	K: But that's equally illusory. So I must start with the fact of what I am.	克：但那同样也是幻觉。所以我必须从我自身的实际现状开始。
19:14	S: Right. K: Which is I'm in a chaos.	西恩博格：是的。克：那就是，我是混乱的。
19:19	S: I belong to a group. K: Chaos - chaos is the group.	西恩博格：我归属于某个团体。克：混乱——混乱即团体。
19:23	S: Right.	西恩博格：没错。
19:24	K: They have political leaders, religious - you follow? the whole thing is a chaos. So to move away from that into cosmos... which is total order, means... not that I'm alone, there is a total order... which is not associated with disorder, chaos. That is alone.	克：人们有着那些政治领袖，宗教领袖——你跟上了吗？这整件事就是一种混乱。所以，要离开它，进入到‘和谐’中去 ‘和谐’就是完全的秩序它并不意味着我是孤立的，而是存在着一种完全的秩序它与失序和混乱没有任何关联。那就是独立。
19:52	B: Yes, well, can we go into that. Suppose several people are doing that... in that state, moving into cosmos... into order, out of the chaos of society.	博姆：是的，那么，我们能否来深入一下它。假设有几个人在这样做在那种状态中，他们进入了‘和谐’ 进入了秩序，摆脱了社会的混乱。
20:02	K: That's right. B: Now then, are they all alone?	克：没错。博姆：那么，他们都是独自一人的吗？
20:05	K: No, of course. B: We want to get it clear.	克：当然不是了。博姆：我们想要搞清楚这一点。
20:10	K: No, they don't feel alone there. There is only order.	克：不，他们并不会觉得自己是独自一人。存在的只有秩序。
20:15	B: Are there different people?	博姆：会有这样与众不同的人吗？
20:18	K: Sir, would you say, suppose - no, I can't suppose. We 3 are in cosmos, there is only cosmos... not you, Dr. Bohm, Dr. Shainberg and me.	克：先生，你会不会说，假设——不，我不能去假设。我们三个人都处于‘和谐’之中，存在的只有‘和谐’ 而不是你，博姆博士、西恩博格医生和我。
20:33	B: Therefore, we are still alone. K: Order is alone!	博姆：因此，我们仍旧是独立的。克：秩序就是独立！
20:37	B: Yes, I looked up the word 'alone' in the dictionary... basically it is 'all one'. K: All one, yes, yes.	博姆：是的，我在词典中查阅了‘独立（alone）’这个词它的基本意思是‘一体的’。克：‘一体的’，是的，是的。
20:44	B: In other words, that there is no fragmentation.	博姆：换句话说，并不存在分裂碎片。
20:46	K: Therefore there is no 3; and that is marvellous, sir.	克：因此，并不是三个人；先生，这是很不可思议的。
20:54	S: But you jumped away there. We got chaos and confusion. That's what we got.	西恩博格：但是你跳过了那一点。我们所拥有的是混乱与困惑。这才是我们拥有的东西。
21:00	K: So, as we said, to move away from that... most people are afraid... which is to have total order. Alone, as he pointed out - all one. Therefore there is no fragmentation... when there is cosmos.	克：所以，就如我们说过的，要离开这些东西大多数人都害怕去拥有完全的秩序。去变得独立，就如他所指出的——‘一体的’。所以，当有了‘和谐’ 就不会有分裂碎片。
21:19	S: Right. But most people are in confusion and chaos. That's all they know.	西恩博格：没错。但大多数人都是困惑与混乱的。这就是他们所知道的一切。
21:25	K: So, move. How do you move away from that? That is the whole question.	克：所以，离开它。那么你要如何才能离开它呢？这就是问题所在。
21:30	S: That's the question. Here we are, in chaos and confusion... we are not over there.	西恩博格：就是这个问题。我们就在这里，处于混乱与困惑之中我们并没有在彼岸。
21:36	K: No, because you may be frightened of that.	克：不是，那是因为你也许在害怕它。
21:39	S: May be frightened of that.	西恩博格：也许会害怕它。
21:41	K: Frightened of an idea of being alone.	克：害怕那个‘独立’的概念。
21:44	S: How can you be frightened of an idea?	西恩博格：你又怎么可能会去害怕一个概念呢？
21:45	B: That's easy.	博姆：这很容易理解。
21:47	K: Aren't you frightened of tomorrow? Which is an idea.	克：你难道不害怕明天吗？ ‘明天’就是一个概念。
21:50	S: OK. So it's an idea.	西恩博格：好吧。所以，它是一个概念。
21:52	K: They are frightened of an idea which they've projected... which says 'my god I am alone... which means I have nobody to rely on'.	克：他们害怕这个他们所投射出来的概念这个概念在说‘我的天哪，我独立了这意味着我没有可以依靠的人了’。
22:04	S: Right, but that's an idea.	西恩博格：没错，但它只是一个想法。
22:06	B: Well, let's go slowly because also…	博姆：呃，让我们慢慢来吧，因为
22:08	S: Yes, this is very important.	西恩博格：是的，这一点很重要。
22:10	B: We've said to a certain extent that it's genuinely so... you are not being supported by society anymore... You do have a certain genuine danger... because you have withdrawn from the web of society.	博姆：我们说过，从某种程度上来讲，它是真正的你不再被社会所供养支持你会遭遇到某种真正的危险因为你已经离开了社会的网络。
22:22	K: Yes. If you are a Protestant... in a Catholic country it becomes very difficult.	克：是的。如果你是一个新教徒那么当你身处一个天主教徒的国家时，你就会举步维艰。
22:29	S: I think we are confused here. I really do, because... if we've got confusion, if we've got chaos...	西恩博格：我觉得我们在这里有一些困惑。我真的不太明白，因为如果我们是困惑的，如果我们是混乱的
22:37	K: No. Not 'if', it is so.	克：不，不是‘如果’，事实就是如此。
22:40	S: It is so, OK - I go with you. Now, we've got chaos and confusion... that's what we've got. Now, if you have an idea about being alone... while in chaos and confusion... that's just another idea, another thought... another part of the chaos. K: Yes, that's all.	西恩博格：事实就是如此，好吧——我顺着你说。现在，我们是混乱与困惑的这就是我们的现状。那么，假如你有了一个关于‘独立’的概念然而与此同时却仍旧处于混乱与困惑中的话那么这只不过是另外一个概念，另外一个想法另外一个混乱的部分罢了。克：是的，就是这样。
22:57	S: Is that right? K: That's right.	西恩博格：这样说对吗？克：对。
22:58	S: OK. Now, that's all we have got; is chaos and confusion.	西恩博格：好的。那么，我们所拥有的全部东西就是混乱与困惑。
23:02	B: Wait. I feel… Watch the question of language... because when you use the word 'all', it closes things.	博姆：等一下。我觉得……要注意一下语言使用的问题因为当你使用‘全部’这个词的时候，就等于关上了大门。
23:08	S: OK. All right.	西恩博格：是的。好吧。
23:10	B: We were saying yesterday that language has to be... more free in its usage, a bit poetic perhaps... and if you use this word 'all', you have to watch it.	博姆：我们昨天说了，语言的用法必须要更宽阔自由一些，或许可以带一点诗意所以如果你使用‘全部’这个词的话，你需要小心谨慎一些。
23:21	S: All right. But we have this. We have chaos. B: We have chaos.	西恩博格：好的。但是我们就是这样。我们是混乱的。博姆：我们有着混乱。
23:25	S: OK. Now, that's what we have. Now what is... I have an idea, let me say what my idea is... that most people are… let's say, unaware... unwilling, don't believe in... don't know anything about this 'all one'.	西恩博格：是的。那么，我们就是这样子。那么现在，什么是我有了一个想法，让我想想我的想法是什么那就是大多数人都是……比方说，都没能觉察到不愿意，不相信他们对那个‘一体的’一无所知。
23:48	K: I'm not talking about that. We're not talking about that.	克：我没有在谈这个。我们并没有在谈论这个东西。
23:51	S: Right, we don't have that. K: No.	西恩博格：好吧，我们没有在谈这个。克：没有。
23:53	S: All we have right now is chaos.	西恩博格：我们现在所拥有的全部东西就是混乱。
23:56	B: Leave out the word 'all'.	博姆：把‘全部’这个词省去吧。
23:58	S: OK. We've got chaos. (Laughter)	西恩博格：好吧。我们拥有的是混乱。（笑声）
24:03	K: Chaos. Now, being in chaotic condition... to move away from that... they have the feeling that they will be alone.	克：混乱。现在，在处于这种混乱失序的状态以后要他们离开这种状态的话会让他们觉得自己将会变得‘独立’。
24:16	S: Right. B: In the sense of isolated.	西恩博格：是的。博姆：这里‘独立’的意思是‘孤立’。
24:18	B: Not the sense of 'all one'. K: Isolated.	博姆：而不是‘一体’的意思。克：孤立。
24:21	S: That's what I am getting at. K: They will be lonely.	西恩博格：这就是我的意思。克：他们将会感到孤独。
24:24	S: That's right.	西恩博格：没错。
24:26	K: Isolated. Of that they are frightened.	克：变得孤立。他们害怕的就是这个。
24:29	S: Not frightened - in terror.	西恩博格：不是害怕，而是恐惧。
24:31	K: Therefore they say 'I would rather stay where I am... in my little pond, rather than face isolation'.	克：因此，他们说‘我宁愿待在我现在的地方待在我的小池子里，也不愿去面对那种孤立’。
24:41	S: That's right.	西恩博格：没错。
24:42	K: And that may be one of the reasons... that human beings don't radically change.	克：而这也许就是原因之一：它解释了为什么人类未能彻底地改变。
24:47	S: That's right.	西恩博格：是的。
24:48	B: Like this primitive tribe, the worst punishment... is to be banished, or isolated.	博姆：就像原始部落一样，最严重的惩罚就是被驱逐，或者被孤立。
24:53	S: You don't have to go to a primitive tribe, I see people... and talk to people all the time... patients come to me and say... 'Look, Saturday night came, I couldn't stand to be alone... I called up 50 people, looking for someone to be with'.	西恩博格：你不需要去提什么原始部落，我一直都在见各种人与他们谈话病人来到我这里，然后说 ‘瞧，星期六晚上就要到了，我无法忍受孤独一人我给五十个人打了电话，希望能找个伴’。
25:05	B: Yes, that's much the same. S: 'I had to join this group'.	博姆：是的，这基本上是一样的。西恩博格：‘我必须要加入这个团体’。
25:08	B: It's much the same. I think it comes... in a more simple and purer form there... people just frankly admit it and they know that's the case.	博姆：这是一样的事。我认为这种感觉是以非常简单和纯粹的方式而出现的人们会很坦白地承认它，他们已经习以为常了。
25:14	S: Right.	西恩博格：是的。
25:15	K: So, that may be one of the reasons... why human beings don't change. The other is, we are so heavily conditioned... to accept things as they are. I mean, we don't say to ourselves... 'Why should I live this way?'	克：所以，这或许是原因之一：即为什么人类不改变？另一个原因则是，我们是如此的饱受制约以至于无法去接受事物的本来面貌。我的意思是，我们不会对自己说 ‘为什么我要这样去生活？’
25:41	S: That's certainly true. We are definitely conditioned to believe... that this is all it can be.	西恩博格：说的太对了。毫无疑问，我们被制约着去相信这就是所有我们能做到的了。
25:48	B: Well, that's important. That's an explanation... 'We are conditioned to believe... that this is all that is possible'. This word 'all' is one of the traps that holds us...	博姆：呃，这里有一件事很重要。这样的一种解释即‘我们被制约着去相信这就是所有可能做到的事情’。 ‘所有’这个词就是缠着我们的陷阱之一
25:55	S: Maybe that's the very fact. Right.	西恩博格：是的，但或许那就是事实。
25:56	B: If you say 'This is all that can be'... then what can you do?	博姆：如果你说‘这就是所有可能的事情’ 那么你又能够做些什么呢？
26:00	K: Nothing. Nothing.	克：什么都做不了，做不了任何事。
26:01	B: You see, this use of language that... This way of using language may be a chain.	博姆：你知道，这样使用语言的话这种使用语言的方式或许会成为一种束缚。
26:06	K: Quite right, sir. B: You have to watch that word…	克：完全正确，先生。博姆：你必须要小心这个词
26:08	S: It is the condition. B: But the word 'all'...	西恩博格：它是一种局限。博姆：然而‘全部’这个词
26:11	K: That's what he is pointing out. B: The word 'all'...	克：这就是他正在指出的东西。博姆：‘全部’这个词
26:15	K: When you say 'This is all I know'... you've already stopped.	克：当你说‘这就是我知道的全部东西’ 你就已经止步了。
26:19	S: Right.	西恩博格：对。
26:19	B: Because what does the word 'all' do. It closes everything. It says that this thing is 'all' of reality. It's got to be real.	博姆：这都是‘全部’这个词干的好事。它关闭了所有的大门。它说这个东西就是‘全部’的真相。它一定是真实的。
26:28	B: One thing is that it turns an idea into reality, apparently. It gives that sense of reality to the idea... because if you say that's 'all' there is... then that has to be real, see what I mean?	博姆：其中一点就是它将一个理念转变成了真实，这是显而易见的。它赋予了理念一种真实感因为如果你说：那就是‘全部’的东西了那么这肯定是真实不虚的，明白我的意思吗？
26:38	S: Yes, I think that's a very good point. That's very much like... the points that we've been making where... the very act of thinking, that thought is complete… a thought becomes reality… So, again the language itself is the condition.	西恩博格：是的，我想这是一个要点。这非常像是我们之前一直提到的要点那就是当你思考，觉得思想是完整的思想就会变成真实所以同样的，语言本身也是一种局限。
26:57	K: So, shall we say... human beings don't radically transform themselves... they're frightened of being isolated from the group... banished from the group. That's one reason. And also traditionally we are so conditioned... that we would rather... accept things as they are, our misery, our chaos… all the rest of it, and not say... 'For god's sake, let me change this'.	克：那么，我们是不是可以说人类不去彻底地转变他们自己是因为他们害怕脱离团体害怕被驱逐出团体。这是一个原因。此外，我们还深受传统的束缚以至于我们宁愿去接受事物的现状：我们的痛苦、我们的混乱等等这一切，而不愿意说 ‘看在上帝的份上，让我去改变它吧’。
27:30	S: Right.	西恩博格：是的。
27:33	B: Well, we have to get out... of this conviction that the way things are is all that can be…	博姆：嗯，我们必须要摆脱这种深信不疑的想法，即事物存在的样子就是它能够做到的全部了
27:37	K: Yes, that's right. The religions have pointed this out... by saying there is another world - aspire to that. This is a transient world, it doesn't matter. Live as best as you can in your sorrow... but hand over your sorrow to Jesus, or Christ or somebody... and you will be perfectly happy in the next world.	克：是的，没错。各种宗教已经指出了这一点它们说存在着另一个世界——去追求那个世界。我们的这个世界是转瞬即逝的，它无关紧要。所以尽最大努力去生活在你的悲伤痛苦中但是要将你的悲伤痛苦交给耶稣、基督或者别的什么人然后你就会在下一个世界中无比幸福了。
28:06	S: Right.	西恩博格：没错。
28:08	K: So, the communists say there is no next world... but make the best of this world.	克：所以，共产主义者说并没有下一个世界而是要让这个世界成为最好的世界。
28:13	B: I think they would say that there is happiness... in the future in this world.	博姆：我想他们会说，这个世界的幸福存在于未来。
28:17	K: Yes, yes. Sacrifice your children… everything, for a future; which is exactly the same thing.	克：是的，是的。牺牲你的孩子牺牲掉一切，来争取那个未来；这完全就是同一回事。
28:26	B: But it seems that it's sort of a transformation... of the same thing that... if we say we have this society as it is... and we want to give it up but we invent something similar...	博姆：但是看起来它稍微改造了一下同样的那个东西即我们说这个社会已经是这样了我们想要舍弃它，然而我们却发明出了某个类似的东西
28:39	K: Yes, quite. B: ...to go to.	克：是的，很对。博姆：……然后进入了这个类似的东西。
28:43	S: We have to invent, it has to be similar... if we are inventing it - out of the system.	西恩博格：我们必须要发明它，而它必然是类似的因为我们是经由这个体系而发明它的。
28:47	B: Yes, but it seems that it's an important point... it's a subtle way of not... not being alone.	博姆：是的，但是看起来很重要的一点就是它是一种很微妙狡猾的方式，它避免了它避免了独立。
28:55	K: Quite right.	克：完全正确。
28:56	S: You mean to go ahead and make it out of the old ideas?	西恩博格：你的意思是继续前进，然后通过那些旧有的理念来制造出它吗？
29:00	B: Yes. To make heaven, or the future.	博姆：是的。制造出天堂，或者说某个未来。
29:03	K: So, what will make human beings change, radically?	克：所以，什么东西才能使人类改变，彻底地改变呢？
29:11	S: I don't know. I think that this is such… you see, even the idea that you are suggesting here... is that they say it can't be different... or it's all the same - that is part of the system itself.	西恩博格：我不知道。我觉得这真的是你瞧，即使是你在这里所提出的理念即他们说它是无法变得不同的或者说它永远都是老样子——这仍旧是体系本身的一部分。
29:24	K: Agreed. Now, wait. May I ask you a question? Why don't you change? What is preventing you?	克：同意。现在，稍等一下。我可以问你一个问题吗？你为什么不改变？是什么东西阻止了你？
29:37	S: I would say that is... it's a tough question. I suppose the answer would be that... I don't know how to answer it.	西恩博格：我想说那是因为……这是一个令人头疼的问题。我想那个答案应该是我不知道该如何回答它。
30:01	K: Because you've never asked yourself that question. Right?	克：因为你从来没有问过自己这个问题。对吗？
30:07	S: Not radically.	西恩博格：没有彻底地追问过自己这个问题。
30:11	K: We are asking basic questions.	克：我们只问一些基础的问题。
30:15	S: Right. I don't really know the answer to the question.	西恩博格：是的。我其实并不知道问题的答案。
30:21	K: Now sir, move away from that. Is it as our structure… as our whole society, all religion... all culture, is based on thought... and thought says 'I can't do this... therefore an outside agency... is necessary to change me'.	克：先生，现在先撇开这个问题。那是不是因为我们的结构我们的整个社会，所有的宗教所有的文化，它们都是建立在思想上的而思想在说‘我做不到因此就需要一个外在的机构来改变我’。
30:46	K: Whether the outside agency is... the environment, the leader, Hitler, this... or Stalin and Mao, or somebody outside, or god. God is your own projection of yourself... obviously. And you believe in god... you believe in Mao, you believe - but you are still the same.	克：不管那个外在的机构是环境，领袖，希特勒，这个人或者斯大林、毛泽东或者外面的某个人，或者上帝。上帝就是你对于自身的投射这是显而易见的。而你信仰上帝你信仰毛泽东，你有了信仰——但你却仍旧和以前一样。
31:12	S: That's right. Right.	西恩博格：是的，没错。
31:14	K: You may identify with the State and so on, but you are still... good old 'me' there is operating. So, is it that thought doesn't see its own limit... and know, realise, it cannot change itself? Realise it!	克：你也许会将自己认同于某个国家等等，但你仍旧是那个完好无损的旧有的‘我’还是在运作着。所以，是不是因为思想没有看到它自身的局限它知道，意识到，自己无法改变它自身？去意识到它！
31:42	B: Well, I think that something more subtle happens. Thought loses track of something and... it doesn't see... that it itself is behind all this.	博姆：嗯，我认为发生了一些更为微妙的事情。思想无法跟上某个事物的脚步并且它并没有看到自己已经落在所有那些事物后面了。
31:59	K: We said that, thought has produced all this chaos.	克：我们说过，是思想制造出了所有这些混乱。
32:02	B: But thought doesn't really see it... you know, abstractly. But I think, you see, in its bones.	博姆：但思想并没有真正看到这一点你知道的，它只是从理论上看到了它。但是我觉得，你已经看到了它的本质核心。
32:08	S: What about the whole business that thought... what thought does in fact is... it communicates through gradual change.	西恩博格：这究竟是怎么回事，思想思想在做的事情实际上是它通过逐渐的改变来进行交流沟通。
32:16	K: That's all invention of thought.	克：这全都是思想的发明。
32:18	S: Yes, but that's where I think the hook is.	西恩博格：是的，但我想陷阱也就在这里。
32:21	K: No, sir, please, just listen. S: Sure.	克：不，先生，请你听我说。西恩博格：好的。
32:24	K: Thought has put this world together. Technologically as well as psychologically. And the technological world is all right, leave it alone... we won't even discuss it - it would become too absurd. So, psychologically thought has built... all this world, in me and outside me... the churches, society and so on. Does thought realise it has made this mess, this chaos?	克：思想拼凑出了这个世界。既包括技术上的世界，也包括心理上的世界。技术上的世界没有什么问题，先不去管它我们甚至不会去讨论它——讨论它是很荒谬的。所以，从心理上而言，思想已经建立起了所有的世界，既包括我内在的世界，也包括外在的世界那些教会、社会等等。思想是否意识到它已经制造出了这些乱七八糟的东西，这些混乱？
33:03	B: I would say it doesn't. It tends to look on this chaos as... independently existent... K: But it's its baby!	博姆：我想说它并没有。它倾向于将这种混乱看做是独立的存在物…… 克：但它是它的孩子！
33:10	B: It is, but it's very hard for it to see that. We were discussing that... at the end of the hour yesterday.	博姆：是的，但是对它来讲，要看到这一点是很困难的。我们曾讨论过它就在昨天谈话结尾的时候。
33:16	K: Yes, we are coming back to that.	克：是的，我们现在又回到了那里。
33:18	B: This question of how thought gives a sense of reality. We were saying technology deals... with something that thought made... but it is actually an independent reality once it's made.	博姆：这个问题就是，思想是如何给予那种真实感的。我们说到技术能够去处理某些思想制造出来的东西但那个东西一旦制造出来后，它实际上是一个独立存在的真实之物。
33:31	K: Made it, like the table, like those cameras.	克：思想制造了它，比如说这张桌子，比如这些摄像机。
33:34	B: Yes. But you could say that thought also creates a reality... which it calls independent but isn't. I thought of a good example that's the Corporation.	博姆：是的。但是你可以说思想同样也创造出了那种真实之物它将之称为‘独立’的，但其实并不是。我想到了一个很好的例子，那就是公司。
33:48	B: People are working for the Corporation, it makes money... it loses money, they strike against the Corporation and so on. But actually you could say, where is the Corporation? It's not in the buildings because... K: They are part of it.	博姆：人们为公司工作，公司会赚钱也会亏钱，人们会反对公司而罢工等等。但实际上，你可以问：公司又在哪里呢？公司并不存在于那个建筑物里，因为…… 克：建筑物是公司的一部分。
34:01	B: If all the people were gone the buildings would be nothing... and if the buildings all burnt down... the corporation could still exist... as long as people think it exists.	博姆：要是所有的人都走了，建筑物就什么都不是了然而即使建筑物都烧毁了公司仍旧是存在的 ——只要人们认为它存在就行。
34:10	S: Right. And it pays taxes, the Corporation... pays taxes, not the individual.	西恩博格：对。并且它也要交税，是公司交税而不是个人。
34:14	K: So, does thought realise, see... aware - that it has created this chaos?	克：所以，思想有没有意识到、看到觉察到它（思想）已经制造出了这些混乱？
34:23	S: No.	西恩博格：没有。
34:25	K: Why not? But you sir, do you realise it?	克：为什么没有？但是你，先生，你意识到这点了吗？
34:35	S: I realise that thought... K: Not you - does thought? You see how you…? I have asked you a different question... does thought, which is you... thinking, does your thinking realise... the chaos it has created?	西恩博格：我意识到思想…… 克：不是你——是思想有没有意识到？你瞧你是如何把……？我问你的是一个不同的问题思想——也就是你也就是思考，你的思考是否意识到了它所制造出来的混乱？
34:57	B: Thinking tends to attribute the chaos to something else... either to something outside, or to 'me' who is inside. At most, I would say that I have done it... but then thinking is attributing... saying that I am doing the thinking. Do you see what I am driving at? K: Yes.	博姆：思想倾向于将混乱的产生归因于其他事物要么是某个外在的东西，要么是那个内在的‘我’。最多，我也只会说是我做了这件事但是接下来思想就会开始找原因了它说是‘我’在进行那些思考。你们明白我想说的东西了吗？克：明白。
35:16	B: That there is 'something' thinking. I was going to say that it's like the Corporation... thinking has invented a sort of a Corporation... who is supposed to be responsible for thinking. We could call it 'Thinking Incorporated'!	博姆：那就是，是‘某个东西’在思考。我会说这就像是公司的例子一样思想发明出了有点类似于公司的东西他需要为思想负责。我们可以把它称之为‘思想组成的公司’！
35:28	K: 'Thinking Incorporated' - quite, quite.	克：‘思想组成的公司’——很对，很正确。
35:30	B: And, you see, the Corporation is supposed to be thinking.	博姆：你瞧，人们认为是那个‘公司’在思考。
35:35	S: Yes, yes.	西恩博格：是的，是的。
35:36	B: So, we attribute, we give credit... for thought to this corporation called 'me'.	博姆：所以，我们在归咎，我们把思想的账算在了这个被称为‘我’的公司头上。
35:41	S: That's a good way to look at it, yes.	西恩博格：这是一个很好的观察角度，的确如此。
35:44	K: Thought has created me.	克：是思想创造了‘我’。
35:46	S: It creates an Institution. B: …but also thought has said... that me is not thought, but a reality independent of thought.	西恩博格：它创造出了一个机构。博姆：……而思想同样也说了那个‘我’并不是思想，而是一种独立于思想的‘真实之物’。
35:52	K: Of course, of course.	克：当然了，当然了。
35:53	B: Thought treats the corporation... as if it were there, just standing... like the buildings or the table. It says' it is a reality', it is not a mere... I think it's in this question of reality, there are... certain realities which are independent of thought… but there are certain things which are appearances... like if you are standing on a cliff looking... at the ocean, you see all the play of light... which is not an independent reality... but it's due to the sky, the sea, and me... all interrelated. K: Of course.	博姆：思想将那个公司看作是就好像它存在于那里，它就矗立在那里就像是那些建筑物，或者说这张桌子一样。思想说‘它是一种真实’，它并不仅仅是我认为思想是存在于这个关于‘真实’的问题中的，存在着某些真实之物，它们是独立于思想的但是也存在着某些东西，它们看起来就像是你站在悬崖边，看着大海，你会看到那些光影的交错然而它并不是一个独立的真实之物而是通过天空、大海和我三者之间的交互而产生的。克：是的。
36:26	B: So, it's important to keep clear... whether it's a reality that arises... through this whole… it's dependent on this whole movement... or whether it stands self-generated, independent. Thought is treating 'me' as an independent reality.	博姆：所以很重要的一点就是要搞清楚这种‘真实’之所以产生，它是不是来自于这整个它是不是依赖于这整个运动的还是说它是自我生成的，是独立的。思想将‘我’看作是一个独立存在的真实之物。
36:44	K: Of course.	克：毫无疑问是这样的。
36:45	B: And thought is saying that it's coming from 'me'... and therefore it doesn't take credit for what it does.	博姆：并且思想说，它自己（思想）是来自于‘我’的因此不能把它的所作所为算到它的头上。
36:53	K: To me, thought has created the 'me'.	克：而是要算到‘我’的头上，然而是思想创造出了那个‘我’。
36:56	S: That's right.	西恩博格：没错。
36:57	K: And so the 'me' is not separate from thought. It is the structure of thought. The nature of thought that has made 'me'. Now, does thought, does your thinking... or does your thought realise this?	克：因此，‘我’和思想并不是分开的。 ‘我’就是思想的结构。思想的本质造就了‘我’。那么，思想，你的思考或者说你的思想，它有没有意识到这一点？
37:20	S: I would say yes and no. K: No, no.	西恩博格：我会说它既意识到了也没有意识到。克：不，不对。
37:23	S: It's like in flashes it does. K: No, not in flashes. You don't see... that table in flashes - it is always there.	西恩博格：好像某一瞬间它意识到了。克：不，不是一瞬间的事。你不会只在一瞬间看到这张桌子——桌子一直都在那儿。
37:37	S: I think what actually happens though... is that you see the action… I wonder, it seems as though... - if we could be honest about this... completely true about it, what do we see when… what happens... or what is the actuality of thought seeing this creation?	西恩博格：然而，我在想那时究竟会发生什么如果你看到了它的行动我想知道，它看起来就好像是我们是否可以对此诚实坦白一些对此实事求是，即我们那时会看到什么那时会发生什么当思想看到了这种造作以后，它的实际状况是怎样的？
38:01	K: No. We asked a question yesterday, we stopped there... Does thought see itself in movement?	克：不是。我们昨天问了一个问题，然后我们就在那里结束了那就是思想是否看到了其自身的运动？
38:09	S: Right.	西恩博格：对。
38:11	K: The movement has created the 'me'... created the chaos, created the division... created the conflict, jealousy, anxiety, fear - all that.	克：那种运动制造出了‘我’ 制造出了混乱，制造出了分裂制造出了冲突、嫉妒、焦虑、恐惧，所有这些东西。
38:20	S: Right. Now, what I'm asking is another question, yesterday... we came to a moment where we said 'thought stops'.	西恩博格：对。但现在我在问的是另一个问题，昨天我们谈到了会有一个‘思想停止’的时刻。
38:29	K: No, that's much later. Please just stick to one thing.	克：不，那是很后面的事情了。请紧扣一件事情就好。
38:34	S: OK, but thought - what I'm trying to get at is... What is the actuality of thought seeing itself...	西恩博格：好吧，但是思想——我试图去搞清楚的是看清其自身的思想，它的实际状态是怎样的
38:41	K: Tell me. You want me to describe it.	克：你告诉我。你想要我来描述它吧。
38:45	S: No, I don't want you to describe it. I am trying to get at is... what is my actuality. What is the actuality that thought sees? And as I observe this... - we get into language here, the problem of language... but it seems that thought sees and forgets.	西恩博格：不，我不是想要让你来描述它。我试图去弄清楚的是我自己的实际状况。那个看清这一切的思想的实际状态是怎样的？当我观察它时 ——我们这里又陷入于语言中，陷入于语言本身的问题中了思想似乎是看到了它然后又忘记了。
39:03	K: No, please. I am asking a very simple question. Don't complicate it. Does thought see the chaos it has created? That's all. Which means... Is thought aware of itself as a movement? Not, 'I am aware of thought as a movement'. The 'I' has been created by thought.	克：不，请注意。我问的是一个非常简单的问题。不要把它搞复杂了。思想有没有看到它所制造出来的混乱？这就是全部的问题。它的意思就是思想是否觉察到了它自己是一种运动？并不是‘我觉察到了思想是一种运动’。因为那个‘我’是思想创造出来的。
39:40	B: I think the question that is relevant is... Why does thought keep on going? Why does it sustain itself? Because as long as it sustains itself... it does produce something... like an independent reality, an illusion of one.	博姆：我认为与之相关的问题就是为什么思想会一直不停地运作？为什么它要延续维持自身？因为只要它还是在维持着自己它就必然能够制造出某个类似于独立的真实之物的东西，一个‘我’的幻象。
39:53	K: Why does thought...	克：为什么思想
39:55	B: Why does thought keep on going?	博姆：为什么思想会一直不停地运作？
39:59	S: What is my relationship to thought?	西恩博格：我和思想的关系是什么？
40:03	K: You are thought. There is not a 'you' related to 'thought'.	克：你就是思想。而不是‘你’和‘思想’有什么关系。
40:09	B: That's the way the language says there is one... it says 'I am the entity who produces the thought'.	博姆：这就是语言的使用方式，它说存在着一个实体它说‘我就是那个制造出思想的实体’。
40:15	B: Which is to say, like General Motors says... 'I am the Corporation which is producing automobiles'.	博姆：也就是说，就像通用汽车所说的 ‘我是制造汽车的公司’。
40:21	S: But look, look. You're right. How can I get it… The question is, I say to you... 'What is my relationship to thought?'... you say to me, 'You are thought'. In some way what you say is clear... but that's still what's coming from me... do you see? That is still the way... thought is moving, to say 'It's my relationship to thought'.	西恩博格：但是注意，你瞧，你是对的。但是我要如何把它问题就是，我对你说 ‘我和思想的关系是什么？’ 而你对我说，‘你就是思想’。从某种程度上来讲，你所说的东西是很清楚明白的但我的想法仍旧是来自于我内心的东西你明白吗？那仍旧是思想的运作方式它说‘这就是我和思想的关系’。
40:52	B: That's the point, to say... 'Can this very thought stop right now?' Do you see? K: Yes.	博姆：这是一个关键点，那就是去问： ‘这个思想是否可以立即停止？’ 你明白吗？克：是的。
40:57	B: What is sustaining this whole thing, at this very moment... was the question I was trying to get at.	博姆：就在此刻，是什么东西在维持着这整件事情这就是我试图去搞清楚的问题。
41:03	S: That's the question.	西恩博格：就是这个问题。
41:04	B: In other words, say we have a certain insight... but something happens... to sustain the old process nevertheless, right now.	博姆：换句话说，比方说，我们有了某种洞见但尽管如此，就在此刻，还是会发生某些事情去支撑延续那个旧有的过程。
41:13	S: That's right. Right now thought keeps moving.	西恩博格：没错。此刻，思想仍旧在保持着运动。
41:18	K: No, he asked, Dr. Bohm asked a very good question... which we haven't answered. He said 'Why does thought move'?	克：不是，他问的是，博姆博士问了一个非常好的问题一个我们还未回答的问题。他说‘思想为什么要运动’？
41:27	B: When it's irrelevant to move. K: Why is it always moving?	博姆：它何时才能停止运动。克：为什么思想总是在运动着？
41:31	S: That's right.	西恩博格：没错。
41:33	K: So, what is movement? Movement is time. Right?	克：那么，什么是运动呢？运动就是时间。对吗？
41:43	S: That's too quick. Movement is time… K: Of course.	西恩博格：这步子太快了。运动就是时间…… 克：当然。
41:50	S: Movement is movement.	西恩博格：运动是运动。
41:51	K: No, no. From here to there. S: Right	克：不，不。从这里到那里去。西恩博格：对。
41:57	K: Physically. From here to there. Physically - from here to London, from here to New York. And also psychologically from here to there.	克：从物理的角度来讲，运动就是从这里到那里。从物理角度讲——从这里到伦敦，从这里到纽约。同样的，在心理上，也存在着‘从这里到那里’。
42:08	S: Right. K: I am this, I must be that.	西恩博格：是的。克：我是这样的人，但我必须要成为那样的人。
42:13	S: Right. But a thought is not necessarily all that.	西恩博格：没错。但思想并不一定完全是这样的。
42:20	K: Thought is the movement. We are examining movement, which is thought.	克：思想就是运动。我们在检视那种运动——也就是思想。
42:29	S: Thought...	西恩博格：思想
42:31	K: Look, if thought stopped, there is no movement.	克：你瞧，要是思想停止了，那么就不会有运动了。
42:36	S: Yes, I am trying to… This has to be made very clear.	西恩博格：是的，我正试着去……这一点必须要搞得非常清楚才行。
42:41	B: I think there is a kind of step that might help…	博姆：我认为有一种手段或许会有所帮助
42:44	S: What is that?	西恩博格：什么手段？
42:46	B: I ask myself 'what is it... that makes me go on thinking or talking'. I often can watch people and see they are in a hole.. just because they keep on talking, if they would stop talking... the whole problem would vanish. It's just this flow of words that… because what they say... then comes out as if it were reality in them... and then they say... 'That is my problem, it's real... and I have to think some more'. I think there is a kind of feedback. Suppose I say... 'Well, I have got a problem, I am suffering'.	博姆：我问自己‘是什么东西在让我不停地思考或者讲话’。我经常会看到一些人，我看到他们处于困境之中这只是因为他们在不停地讲话，要是他们可以停止讲话那么所有问题都会消失。那只是因为这种文字的流动使得因为他们说了一些东西然后看起来就好像这些话语具有了真实性然后他们说 ‘这就是我的问题，它是真实不虚的而我必须要再想点办法’。我认为这里存在着一种反作用。假设我说 ‘啊，我有了一个问题，我感到痛苦’。
43:20	S: You have an 'I' though.	西恩博格：不过，你还是有着那个‘我’。
43:22	B: Yes. I think that, therefore I have a sense that I am real. I am thinking of my suffering... but it's implicit that it's I who is there... and that the suffering is real because I am real.	博姆：是的。我就是这样想的，因此我会觉得‘我’是真实的。我在思考着我的痛苦但这也暗示着有个‘我’存在于那里那个痛苦是真实的，因为‘我’是真实的。
43:35	S: Right.	西恩博格：对。
43:36	B: Then comes the next thought, which is 'since that is real... I must think some more'. S: Right.	博姆：然后下一个思想便出现了，那就是‘由于它是真实的所以我必须再想点办法’。西恩博格：没错。
43:41	B: Because if it were that would be the case.	博姆：因为如果它是真实的，我就必须要这样去做了。
43:43	S: It feeds on itself.	西恩博格：它为自己提供了力量。
43:45	B: Yes. And then one of the things I must think is... 'What is my problem'? Which is that I am suffering. I am compelled to keep on thinking... that thought all the time... maintaining myself in existence... do you see what I am driving at? There is a feedback.	博姆：是的。然后，我必须要思考的一件事就是 ‘我有什么问题’？那个问题就是我正在受苦。我被迫一直不停地去思考那个念头从而维持了自我的存在你明白我想要表达的东西吗？这里存在着一种反作用。
44:00	K: Which means sir, as thought is movement... which is time, if there is no movement, I am dead! I am dead!	克：先生，这就意味着，由于思想是一种运动 ——也就是时间，所以要是没有了运动，‘我’就死了！ ‘我’死了！
44:12	B: Yes, if that movement stops, then... that sense that I am there being real must go because... that sense that I am real is the result of thinking.	博姆：是的，如果那种运动停止了，那么那种‘我真实地存在于那里’的感觉就必然会消失，因为那种‘真实的我’的感觉是思想的产物。
44:20	K: Do you see, this is extraordinary.	克：你看到了吗，这是一件非同寻常的事情。
44:22	S: Of course it is.	西恩博格：毫无疑问是这样的。
44:23	K: No, actually. In actuality, not in theory.	克：不，它真的是这样。它是实际的，它并非理论。
44:28	S: Right, right.	西恩博格：是的，是的。
44:30	K: One realises thought as movement. Right?	克：一个人意识到了思想是一种运动。对吗？
44:34	S: Right.	西恩博格：对。
44:37	K: There is not 'I' realise thought as a movement... thought itself realises it's movement. It is in movement.	克：并不是‘我’意识到了思想是一种运动是思想本身意识到了它自己的运动。意识到自己正处于运动中。
44:46	B: And in this movement it creates an image of...	博姆：就在这种运动中，它制造出了一个意象
44:49	B: ...'me' who is supposed to be moving.	博姆：那个‘我’的意象，它认为是这个‘我’在运动。
44:51	K: Yes, yes. S: Right.	克：是的，是的。西恩博格：没错。
44:53	K: Now, when that movement stops... there is no 'me'. The 'me' is the time... is time, put together by time - which is thought.	克：现在，当那种运动停止后 ‘我’就不复存在了。那个‘我’就是时间 ‘我’是时间，他是由时间拼凑出来的东西，而时间就是思想。
45:08	S: Right.	西恩博格：是的。
45:09	K: So, do you, listening to this... realise the truth of it? Not the verbal, logical truth, logical statement... but the truth of such an amazing thing? Therefore there is an action entirely different from that. The action of thought as movement... brings about fragmentary actions... contradictory actions. When the movement as thought... comes to an end there is total action.	克：所以，在听到这些以后，你是否认识到了这其中的真相？不是口头上的，逻辑上的真相，也不是逻辑上的陈述而是认识到这令人惊叹之事的真相？由此便会产生一种与之完全不同的行动。思想作为运动，它的活动带来了支离破碎的行动自相矛盾的行动。当那种作为思想的运动停止时，就会产生全然的行动。
46:14	B: Can you say then that whatever technical thought... comes about, then is in order? K: Of course.	博姆：是不是可以说，那时，无论产生什么样的技术上的思想它们都会是井然有序的？克：当然了。
46:20	B: In other words, it doesn't mean that thought is permanently gone.	博姆：换句话说，那并不意味着思想因此而永远地消失了。
46:25	K: No, no. No.	克：是的，是的。思想并未消失。
46:28	S: It could still be a movement in its proper place; its fitting order. If the right and proper thought. K: Its proper place.	西恩博格：思想仍旧会在其合理的位置上，以合适的秩序而运动。如果那种思想是正确且合理的话。克：思想有其合理的位置。
46:35	S: And it comes about… I mean, the brain can still... do that thing. Right? B: Yes.	西恩博格：而思想的产生……我的意思是，大脑仍旧可以去做事情。对吗？博姆：是的。
46:41	K: So, am I - not, 'am I' - a human being... is he afraid of all this? Unconsciously, deeply, he must realise the ending of me. Do you understand? And that is really a most frightening thing. me, my knowledge, my books... my wife, my... - you follow? The whole thing which thought has put together. And you are asking me to end all that.	克：所以，我是不是——说错了——一个人是不是是不是因为他害怕这一切？无意识中，内心深处，他必然意识到了那个‘我’的终结。你明白了吗？而这的确是一件最令人恐惧的事情。我，我的知识，我的书籍我的妻子，我的……——你明白了吗？这整个由思想所拼凑出来的东西。而你要我去结束所有这一切。
47:23	B: Yes. Can you say it's the ending of everything? Because everything that I know is in there.	博姆：是的。是不是可以说它就是一切事物的终结？因为我所知道的一切东西都在它里面。
47:32	K: Absolutely. So, you see really, I'm frightened... a human being is frightened of death. - not the biological death. S: To die now.	克：完全正确。因此，你会看到，我其实是在害怕人类害怕死亡。 ——不是生理上的死亡。西恩博格：而是当下的死亡。
47:54	K: Death of this coming to an end. And therefore he believes in god... reincarnation, a dozen other comforting things... but in actuality... When thought... When thought realises itself as a movement and sees that... that movement has created the 'me'... the divisions, the quarrels, the political... you follow? - the whole structure of the chaotic world... when thought realises it, it sees the truth of it and ends. Therefore it is in cosmos. Then there is cosmos. Now, you listen to this... how do you receive it?	克：而是这种结束一切的死亡。所以，他去信仰上帝信仰轮回转世和很多其他令人安慰的事物但事实上要是思想当思想意识到它自己是一种运动，并且看到那种运动制造出了‘我’ 制造出了分裂、争吵以及政治上的你跟上了吗？——这个混乱世界的全部构成当思想认识到它时，它就会看到其中的真相并且结束了。因此，它便会处于和谐（cosmos）之中。那时就会有和谐。现在，当你聆听这些的时候你是如何去接收它的？
48:57	S: Do you want me to…	西恩博格：你是不是想要让我去
48:59	K: Receive it. S: Receive it.	克：接收它。西恩博格：接收它。
49:01	K: I offer you something. How do you receive it? This is very important.	克：我提供给了你一些东西。你是如何接收它的？这一点很重要。
49:09	S: Yes. Thought sees its movement...	西恩博格：是的。思想看到了它自身的运动
49:13	K: No, no. How do you receive it? How does the public... who listens to all this, say, 'How am I listening to this... what is he trying to tell me?'	克：不，不对。你是如何去接收它的？大家是如何去他们聆听了所有这些，然后说，‘我要如何去聆听这些话他在试图告诉我什么东西？’
49:38	S: How?	西恩博格：如何去聆听呢？
49:39	K: He says, 'I am not telling you anything'. He says, 'Listen to what I am saying and find out... for yourself whether thought as movement... in that movement it has created all this... both the technological world which is useful... which is necessary... and this chaotic world.	克：他说，‘我并没有在告诉你任何东西’。他说， ‘聆听我所说的东西，然后亲自去发现是否思想是一种运动并且在那种运动中，它创造出了所有这些东西既包括技术上的世界——它是有用的必需的也包括这个充满混乱的世界。
50:08	K: How do you receive, listen to it; or the public - another who is not here... listen to it? How do you listen to it? What takes place in you when you listen to it?	克：那么你是如何去接收它和聆听它的呢？或者说大家——其他不在这里的人他们是如何聆听它的？你是如何去聆听它的？当你聆听它时，你的内心发生了什么？
50:24	S: Panic. K: No. Is it?	西恩博格：恐慌。克：不。它是恐慌吗？
50:27	S: Yes. There is a panic about the death, that death... a sort of fear of the death. There is a seeing… there is a sense of seeing... and then there is a fear of that death.	西恩博格：是的。有一种对于死亡的恐慌感，那种死亡有一种对于死亡的恐惧。我看到了……我感觉自己看到了然后便产生了对于那种死亡的恐惧。
50:49	K: Which means, you have listened to the words... the words have awakened the fear.	克：这意味着，你只是聆听了那些文字那些文字唤起了恐惧感。
51:00	S: Right.	西恩博格：是的。
51:02	K: But not the actuality of the fact.	克：然而唤起恐惧的并不是那个事实真相。
51:09	S: I wouldn't say that. I think that's a little unfair.	西恩博格：我不觉得是这样。我认为这样说的话有点不公平。
51:13	K: I am asking you.	克：我只是在问你。
51:14	S: They awaken the actuality of the fact... and then there's almost… there seems to be a very quick process. There is an actuality of the fact... and there seems to be a silence... a moment of great clarity... that gives way to a kind of... feeling in the pit of the stomach where things... are dropping out and then there is a kind of...	西恩博格：这些文字唤醒了事实的真相然后就会有一种几乎是似乎产生了一个非常快速的过程。事实真相出现了然后似乎会有一种寂静会有一个无比清明的时刻然后它们又被某种感觉所替代了那种感觉就好像是胸口的石头落地了，然后便会有一种
51:42	K: Withholding. S: ...withholding. I think there is a whole movement there.	克：拒绝感。西恩博格：……拒绝感。我认为这就是存在于那里的全部运动。
51:47	K: So, you are describing humanity.	克：所以，你是在描述人类的情况。
51:50	S: Yes, I am trying. Yes, I am describing me.	西恩博格：是的，我正在试图描述。是的，我就是在描述我自己。
51:53	K: Who are the humanity. B: All the same.	克：你就是人类。博姆：都是一样的。
51:55	K: You are the viewer, the people who are listening.	克：你就是观众，那些在聆听的人。
51:58	S: Right. There is a sense of 'What will happen tomorrow?'	西恩博格：是的。会有那么一种感觉：‘明天将会发生什么？’
52:01	K: No, no. That's not the point.	克：不，不。这不是关键。
52:05	S: I am telling you, that's that fear.	西恩博格：我是在告诉你，它就是那样的一种恐惧。
52:07	K: No. When thought realises as a movement... and that movement has created... all this chaos, total chaos... not just patchy, but complete disorder... when it realises that, what takes place, actually? You are not frightened... there is no fear. Listen to it carefully, there is no fear. Fear is the idea brought about by an abstraction. You understand? You have made a picture of ending... and frightened of that ending.	克：不。思想意识到了它是一种运动并且这种运动创造出了所有这些混乱，彻底的混乱不仅仅是有些失调，而是完全的混乱当它意识到这一点时，那么真正会发生的是什么？你不会再害怕了恐惧消失了。请仔细听好，恐惧消失了。恐惧是某种抽象化所带来的概念。你明白了吗？你绘制了一幅关于‘终结’的画面然后去害怕那种终结。
53:24	S: You are right. You are right. There's stop...	西恩博格：你是对的，你说得对。会有一种停止
53:29	K: There is no fear… S: No fear, and then there's...	克：没有恐惧了…… 西恩博格：没有了恐惧，然后就
53:33	K: There is no fear when the actuality takes place.	克：当实际的事情发生时，是不会有恐惧的。
53:39	S: That's right. When the actuality takes place there is silence.	西恩博格：对。当实际的事情发生时，会有一种寂静。
53:45	K: With the fact there is no fear.	克：对于事实而言，并不存在恐惧。
53:47	B: But as soon as the thought comes in...	博姆：然而一旦当思想介入进来
53:49	K: That's right. S: That's right. Now wait, don't go away. (Laughs)	克：是的。西恩博格：对。不，等一下，请不要离开。（笑）
53:54	K: We have 3 minutes more. S: OK. 3 minutes.	克：我们还剩三分钟。西恩博格：好吧。三分钟。
53:58	K: Go on.	克：请继续。
53:59	S: The fact and the actuality - no fear.	西恩博格：对于事实和实际之事来说，是没有恐惧的。
54:02	K: That's it. That's it.	克：是的。正是如此。
54:05	S: But then the thought comes in.	西恩博格：然而，接下来思想介入进来了。
54:08	K: No. Then it's no longer a fact. You can't remain with the fact.	克：不是。然后它就不再是一个事实了。因为你无法与事实同在。
54:27	B: Well, that's the same as to say you keep on thinking…	博姆：嗯，这和说你在不停地思考是一回事
54:30	K: Keep on moving. B: Yes. Well, as soon as you bring thought in and it's not a fact... that's an imagination or a fantasy... which is felt to be real... but it is not so. S: Right.	克：保持不停的运动。博姆：是的。我想说，当你将思想带进来时，思想并不是一个事实它是一种想象，或者说是幻想它让人感觉像是真的但其实并非如此。西恩博格：没错。
54:45	B: Therefore, you are not with the fact any longer.	博姆：因此，你就不再与事实同在了。
54:47	S: So, we are saying…	西恩博格：所以，我们在说的是
54:49	K: We have discovered something extraordinary... when you are faced with fact, there is no fear.	克：我们已经发现了一些非凡的东西即当你面对事实的时候，是不存在恐惧的。
54:56	B: So, all fear is thought then, is that it?	博姆：因此，所有的恐惧都是思想，是这样吗？
54:59	K: Yes, that's right.	克：是的，没错。
55:01	S: That's a big mouthful…	西恩博格：这话说得太绝对了
55:03	K: No. All thought is fear, all thought is sorrow.	克：并不绝对。所有的思想都是恐惧，所有的思想都是苦。
55:08	B: It goes both ways, all fear is thought and all thought is fear.	博姆：两种说法都可以，所有的恐惧都是思想，所有的思想都是恐惧。
55:12	K: Of course.	克：当然了。
55:13	B: Except the kind of thought that arises with the fact alone.	博姆：除了那种只伴随着事实而出现的思想。
55:16	S: I want to interject something right here... if we have 1 second. It seems to me that we have discovered... something quite important right here... and that is, at that actual seeing... then the instant of attention is at its peak.	西恩博格：我想在这里插点话要是我们还有一点时间的话。在我看来，我们似乎已经在这里发现了一些非常重要的东西那就是，在你真正看到的那一刻那种瞬间的注意就会达到顶峰。
55:31	K: No. Something new takes place. S: Yes.	克：不对。而是有一些新的东西发生了。西恩博格：是的。
55:36	K: Something totally, that you have never looked at or... it has never been understood or experienced, whatever it is. There is a totally different thing happening.	克：某些完全……你从未看到过的或者从未理解或经验过的东西，不管那是什么。会有某种截然不同的事情发生。
55:52	B: But isn't it important that we acknowledge this... in our thought, I mean in our language?	博姆：不过有一点是不是也很重要？那就是我们要在思想中承认它，我的意思是，在我们的语言中承认它？
55:58	B: As we are doing now. In other words, if it happened... and we didn't acknowledge it then we are liable to fall back.	博姆：就像我们现在在做的一样。换句话说，要是这样的事发生了而我们却不承认它的话，那么我们就很容易跟不上它。
56:04	K: Of course. S: I don't get it.	克：是的。西恩博格：我不是很明白。
56:06	B: We have to see it not only when it happens... but we have to see it when it happens... and we have to say that it happens.	博姆：我们不仅要在它发生的时候看到它当它发生的时候，我们必须要看到它并且我们必须要说它发生了。
56:14	S: Then are we creating a place to localise there?	西恩博格：那么，是不是我们创造了一个地方，然后将它安置于那里呢？
56:17	K: No. What he is saying is very simple. He is saying... Does this fact, actuality take place? And can you remain with that… Can thought not move in, but remain only with that fact? Sir, it's like saying, remain totally with sorrow... not move away, not say... 'It should be, shouldn't be, how am I to get over it?'... self-pity and all the rest of it - just totally remain... with that thing, with the fact. Then you have an energy which is extraordinary.	克：不是。他所说的东西是很简单的。他在说这个事实，这个实际的真相有没有发生？并且你能否与它待在一起思想是否可以不介入进去，而只是与事实同在？先生，它就像是在说，完全与悲伤同在不要逃离它，不要说 ‘它是应该的，它是不应该的，我要如何才能克服它呢？’ 不要有自怜自哀，等等这些东西——只是完全地与那个东西，与那个事实待在一起。然后你就会有一种非凡的能量。
57:15	S: Right.	西恩博格：对。
57:20	K: Can you? It's time.	克：你可以这样去做吗？时间到了。