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BR76CTM5 - 你的自我形象阻碍了与他人的关系
与博姆和西恩博格的第五次探讨
英国,布洛克伍德
1976年5月19日



0:11 K: You know, we were talking about... the necessity... of human beings changing... and why they don't change... why they accept these intolerable... conditions of human psyche. I think we ought to go, or approach... the same thing from a different angle... who has invented this unconscious? 克:你瞧,我们之前谈论了 人类必须 要有所改变 以及为什么他们不去改变 为什么他们接受了这些无法忍受的 人类心理的现状。 我认为我们应该从一个不同的角度去探讨或者处理 同样的这个问题 是谁发明了那种无意识?
0:50 S: Who has invented it? I think the unconscious... there is a difference between what we call the unconscious... and what is the unconscious. The word is not the thing. 西恩博格:谁发明了它? 我认为无意识 我们所谓的无意识 和真正的无意识之间是有区别的。词语并不是那个东西。
1:07 K: Yes, the word is not the thing. Who has thought it up? 克:是的,词语并不是那个东西。那么是谁发明它的?
1:12 S: I think the history... of the thinking about the unconscious... is a long and involved process. I think it began... 西恩博格:我认为人们 思考无意识的历史 是一个漫长且混乱复杂的过程。我认为它始于
1:26 K: May we ask, have you an unconscious? 克:我们能否问一下:你有无意识吗?
1:30 S: Have I? Again, we are into a language problem here. 西恩博格:我有没有?我们在这里又陷入了语言的困境中。
1:33 K: No.

S: Have I an unconscious?
克:不。

西恩博格:我有没有无意识?
1:37 K: Are you aware of your unconscious? Do you know if you have an unconscious... that's operating differently, or trying to give you hints... you know, all that, are you aware of all that? 克:你有没有觉察到自己的无意识? 你是否知道自己有那种无意识 它在以不同的方式运作着,或者试图给予你各种暗示 你知道的,所有那些东西,你是否觉察到了这一切?
1:51 S: Yes. I'm aware of an aspect of myself. I look at it a little differently... I look at it that there is an aspect of myself... that's aware incompletely. That's what I call the unconscious. It's aware of my experience... or aware of the events in an incomplete way. That's what I call the unconscious. Now, it uses symbols and different modes of telling... of understanding... in other words, a dream where I'm... discovering jealousy, in the dream... 西恩博格:是的。我觉察到了我自身的某一方面。 我观察无意识的方式有一点不同 我是这样观察它的,那就是我身上存在某一方面 它是未被完全觉察的部分。 这就是我所称之为的‘无意识’。 那是一种对于我的经验 或者各类事件的不完整的觉察。 这就是我所称之为的‘无意识’。 然后,这种无意识会使用符号,和各种不同的方式来讲述 或者理解 换句话说,我会在梦中 发现嫉妒,在梦中去发现它
2:35 K: Quite, quite.

S: ...that I wasn't aware of.
克:没错,没错。

西恩博格:……而那就是我未曾觉察到的。
2:38 K: But would you also give importance, Dr. Bohm... to a feeling that there is such a thing? 克:那么,博姆博士,你是否也会去强调 这种感觉:即存在着这么一个东西(无意识)?
2:47 B: Well, I don't know what you mean by that. I think there are phenomena that there are some things... we do whose origin we are not aware of. We react... we use words in an habitual way.

S: We have dreams.
博姆:呃,我不知道你所说的无意识是什么意思。我认为 存在着这种现象:那就是对于我们所做的某些事情 我们并没有觉察到它的根源所在。我们只是习惯性地作出了反应 习惯性地使用了那些语句。

西恩博格:我们会做梦。
3:03 B: We have dreams, I suppose we... 博姆:我们会做梦,我假设我们是
3:05 K: I'm going to question all that because I'm not sure... 克:我想要质疑这一切,因为我并不确定
3:09 S: You are not questioning that we have dreams? 西恩博格:你应该不会去质疑我们做梦这件事吧?
3:11 K: No. But I want to question, or ask... the experts, if there is such a thing... as the unconscious. For me, somehow I don't think... it has played any important part in my life at all. 克:不会。但是我想要质疑,或者问问 专家们,是否存在 ‘无意识’这个东西。对我来说,不管怎样,我并不认为 无意识在我的生活中真的占据着重要的位置。
3:30 S: Well, it depends on what you mean by the unconscious. 西恩博格:呃,这取决于你所指的无意识是什么。
3:33 K: I will tell you what I mean. Something hidden, something incomplete... something that I have to go after... consciously or unconsciously... go after and discover it, unearth it... explore it and expose it. 克:我会来告诉你它的意思的。 那是某种潜藏的东西,某个不完整的事物 某个我需要 有意识或无意识地去追踪的事物 去追踪它、发现它、揭露它 探索它并且曝光它。
3:46 S: Right. 西恩博格:好的。
3:47 K: See the motive, see the hidden intentions. 克:去看到那个动机,看到那些深藏的意图。
3:53 S: Right. 西恩博格:没错。
3:54 B: Could we make it clear that... there are some things people do... where you can see they are not aware of what they are doing... but some things of the nature of thought. 博姆:我们能否把这件事讲清楚 那就是对于人们所做的一些事情 你会发现他们并没有意识到自己所作所为 但这些事情却是来自于思想的本性。
4:04 K: I don't quite follow. 克:我不是很明白。
4:05 B: For example, this Freudian slip of the tongue, you know... that somebody makes a slip of the tongue... which expresses his will, intention. 博姆:举个例子,比如那种‘佛洛伊德式失言’,你知道的 有些人会口误 从而说出他的心愿和意图。
4:15 K: Oh, yes, I didn't mean that. Quite. 克:噢,是的。我指的不是这个。肯定不是。
4:18 S: That would be an unconscious... - that's what people would think of as the unconscious. I think there are two problems here... if I can just put in a technical statement here. There are those people, and there has arisen... in the history of thinking about the unconscious... people who think... that there are things, like the unconscious is a thing... and that there are things in the unconscious which are there... and must be lifted out. Then I think... that there is a large group of people now... who think of the unconscious as areas of behaviour... areas of response, areas of experience that are not clear... all the connections, we aren't aware... totally aware of all that goes... into what happened... so that in the daytime you might have, let's say... an experience of stress... like you would say, disorder, you didn't finish... with the experience and at night... you go through reworking it in a new way. 西恩博格:那就是一种无意识 ——这就是人们所认为的‘无意识’。 我认为这里存在着两个问题 如果我可以在这里进行一种专业性的阐述的话。 存在着那么一群人,并且 在历史上也出现过他们对于无意识的思考 那些人认为 存在着这种东西,——就好像无意识是某个东西一样 在无意识中存在着一些事情,这些事情存在于那里 而我们必须要让它浮现出来。然后,我想 现在还有一大群人 他们将无意识视为行为的区块 反应的区块,经验的区块,这些区块是模糊不清的 我们并没有觉察到这些区块之间所有的联系 没有充分觉察到所有那些 其中所发生的事情 所以,在白天的时候,你也许会感到,比方说 压力和紧张 就像你所说的,那种混乱,而你并没有结束掉 这种经验,于是晚上的时候 你就会以新的方式去‘重做’它。
5:19 K: Reworking. 克:‘重做’它。
5:20 S: So, that would be the unconscious in operation. You get other… let's say, from the past... or from previous programmes of action. 西恩博格:所以,那就是无意识在运作了。 你会有另一种 比方说,某种来自于过去的 或者来自于以往的行动方案的东西。
5:30 K: I mean... the collective unconscious, the racial unconscious. 克:我想说 那就是集体无意识,种族无意识。
5:36 B: Also, let's say, somebody has been deeply hurt in the past... and you can see his whole behaviour is governed by that. But he doesn't know, he may not know it. 博姆:同样的,比如说,某人曾在过去遭受过深深的伤害 然后你会看到他的所有行为都是被它所支配的。 但是他并不知道,他也许并不知晓这一点。
5:44 K: Yes, that I understand. 克:是的,这个我能理解。
5:45 S: His response is always from the past. 西恩博格:他的反应总是来自于过去的。
5:47 K: Always, quite. What I'm trying to find out is... why we have divided it... the conscious and the unconscious. Or is it one unitary total process moving? Not hidden, not concealed... but moving as a whole current. And we come along, these clever brainy... birds come along and split it up... and say there is the unconscious... and the conscious... the hidden, the incomplete... the storehouse of racial memories... family memories, genes, all that. 克:总是来自于过去,很对。 而我试图去搞清楚的是 为什么我们要划分它 划分意识和无意识。 还是说它是一个在运动着的,统一整体的过程? 没有隐藏,没有隐蔽 而是作为一股完整的洪流在运动。 然后我们出现了,那些聪明能干的家伙 出现了,然后把它分割开来 他们说存在着无意识 和显意识 存在着那些隐藏的事物,不完整的事物 那个有着种族记忆 家族记忆、遗传基因等等这些事物的仓库。
6:44 S: The reason that happened, I think... .is that, just partially explained... is the fact that Freud and Jung... and these people that were seeing patients... out of which grew so much... of the knowledge about the unconscious... would see patients, people who had... separated it, had fragmented off... this movement that you are talking about. 西恩博格:我认为发生这种事的原因在于 这只是部分的解释 事实上佛洛伊德、荣格 以及这一类人,他们看了很多病人 从这些病人身上,他们发展出了如此多的 关于无意识的知识 为了了解看清病人,这些人 会把它分开,去分裂 这种你所谈论的运动。
7:06 K: That's what I want to get at. 克:这就是我想要去弄清楚的。
7:08 S: In other words, a woman who says that she is - the whole history... of hysteria, where patients couldn't move their arm. 西恩博格:换句话说,一个女人会说她是——你知道关于歇斯底里症的整个历史 那样的病人会无法移动他们的手臂。
7:15 K: I know.

S: You know about that. And then if you open up the memories... and then they eventually can move their arm. So, they put two and two together, I know they don't think... it worked that way but that's the way they did it. Or there were people who had dual personalities.
克:我知道。

西恩博格:你也知道这个。 而如果你能够揭示出那些记忆 那么他们最后就可以移动自己的手臂了。 所以,他们提出了这两个东西,并且将它们放在一起,我知道他们并不觉得 它是这样运作的,但这就是他们的工作方式。 或者说还有一些人有着双重人格。
7:29 K: What I'm trying to… Is it an insanity... not insanity - is it a state of mind... that divides everything, that says... there is the unconscious, conscious? It's a process of fragmentation also. 克:我试图表达的是……这是否是一种精神病 不应该说是精神病——这是否是一种头脑的常态 它喜欢去分裂一切事物,它说 存在着那种无意识和显意识? 这同样也是一个支离破碎的过程。
7:45 B: Well, wouldn't you say that... certain material is made, even Freud has said... that certain material is made unconscious by the brain... because it's too disturbing.

K: That's what I want...
博姆:那么,你会不会说 某些材料生产出来了,即使佛洛伊德也说过 大脑把某些材料转变为了无意识 因为它太令人不安了。

克:这就是我想要去
7:55 S: It's fragmented. 西恩博格:它是支离破碎的。
7:57 B: That's well known in all schools of psychology. 博姆:这在所有教授心理学的学校里是众所周知的。
7:59 S: That's what I'm saying. That it's fragmented off... and that then was called the unconscious. What is fragmented is the unconscious. 西恩博格:这就是我在说的东西。它是支离破碎的 然后它被称之为‘无意识’。 那个支离破碎的东西就是无意识。
8:08 K: I understand that. 克:这一点我明白。
8:09 B: Would one say that the brain itself is... on purpose in some sense... holding it separate to avoid it?

S: Right.
博姆:我们是否可以说从某种意义上来讲,大脑本身 的目的,就是为了 将它分开,并且回避它?

西恩博格:没错。
8:19 K: Yes, avoid facing the facts.

S: That's right.
克:是的,避免去面对事实。

西恩博格:对。
8:22 B: Yes. So that it's not really... separate from consciousness. 博姆:是的。因此无意识其实并不是 和显意识分开的。
8:26 K: That's what I want to get at. You see? 克:这就是我想要表达的意思。你看到它了吗?
8:30 S: It's right. It isn't separate from consciousness... the brain has organised it in a fragmented way. 西恩博格:没错。它并不是和显意识分开的 大脑以一种分裂的方式构筑了它。
8:37 B: Yes, but then it's a wrong terminology to call it that. The word 'unconscious' already implies a separation. 博姆:是的,所以对它的称呼是一种错误的术语。 ‘无意识’这个词本身就已经暗示了一种分别。
8:42 K: That's it, separation. 克:是的,一种分别。
8:43 B: To say there are two layers, for example, the deep unconscious... and the surface consciousness, that structure is implied. But now this other notion is to say... that structure is not implied, but rather... certain material wherever it may be is simply avoided. 博姆:我们说存在着两个层次,比如说,存在着深层的无意识 以及表层的显意识,我们暗示了这样的一种结构。 而现在,另一种观点则表示说 它暗示的并不是这种结构,而是 某种被回避掉的‘材料’——不管这种材料位于哪里。
9:00 S: That's right. That's the way I think about it. 西恩博格:没错。这也是我对此的观点。
9:03 K: I don't want to think about somebody... because he has hurt me. That's not the unconscious, I don't want to think about it. 克:我不愿意去想起某人 因为他曾经伤害过我。 这并不是无意识,我只是不愿去想起它。
9:10 S: That's right. 西恩博格:对。
9:12 K: I'm conscious, he has hurt me... and I don't want to think about it. 克:我是有意识的:他伤害了我 于是我不愿去想起这件事。
9:15 B: But a kind of paradoxical situation arises... because eventually... you become so good at it... that you don't realise you are doing it. I mean, that seems to happen.

K: Yes, yes.
博姆:但是会有一种悖论的情况发生 因为最终 你会变得如此擅长这件事 以至于你没有意识到自己在做这件事。 我的意思是,这看起来似乎就是发生的事情。

克:是的,是的。
9:25 B: People become so proficient at... avoiding these things that they cease... to realise they are doing it.

S: That's right.
博姆:人们变得如此精通于 去回避这些事情,以至于他们没有 意识到自己正在这样做。

西恩博格:没错。
9:31 K: Yes.

B: It becomes habitual.
克:是的。

博姆:人们对此习以为常了。
9:33 S: That's right. I think, this is what happens. That these kinds of things, the hurts... 西恩博格:没错。我认为这就是发生的事情。 这类事物,这些伤害
9:39 K: The wound remains. 克:创伤依然存在着。
9:41 S: The wound remains and we forget that we have forgotten. 西恩博格:创伤依然存在,而我们忘记了自己已将它遗忘。
9:45 K: The wound remains. 克:创伤仍旧存在。
9:46 B: Yes. I think, we remember to forget! 博姆:是的。我认为,我们记得的是去‘忘记’!
9:50 K: Yes (Laughs). 克:是的(笑)。
9:51 S: We remember to forget and the process... actually the process of therapy is... helping the remembering and the recall... to remember you have forgotten, and then to understand the connections... of why you forgot, and then... the thing can move in a more holistic way... rather than being fragmented. 西恩博格:我们记得的是去‘忘记’,而治疗的过程 事实上,治疗的过程就是 帮助病人去记起,让他们回想起 去记起‘自己已经遗忘了那些事情’, 然后去了解那些关联 关于为什么你会遗忘,然后 事情就能够以更整体的方式而运作 而不是变得支离破碎。
10:14 K: Do you consider, or feel that you have been hurt? 克:你是否认为,或者觉得自己曾经遭受过伤害?
10:22 S: Yes. 西恩博格:是的。
10:23 K: And want to avoid it? Or, being hurt, resist, withdraw, isolate... the whole picture being the image... of yourself being hurt and withdrawn... all that - do you feel that when you are hurt? 克:并且想要回避它? 或者说,在遭受了伤害之后,你就会去抵抗,退缩、孤立 那整个意象,它就是你自己的形象 这个形象受到了伤害,于是你变得孤僻沉默 等等这些——当你受到伤害时,你是否感知到了这些?
10:50 S: Yes, I feel - how to put it… I think... 西恩博格:是的,我感知到了——要怎么说呢 我认为
11:03 K: I'm interested in this, let's go into this. 克:我对这个有兴趣,让我们来探讨一下它吧。
11:07 S: Yes, I feel there is definitely a move... not to be hurt, not to be... not to have that image, not to have... that whole thing changed... because if it's changed it seems... to catapult into that same experience... that was the hurt. This is hurt but this has... a resonation with that unconscious which reminds me... I'm reminded of being hurt deeply by this more superficial hurt. 西恩博格:是的,我可以感到必然会存在一种 去避免伤害的行动,不要去 不要让那个形象,不要让 那整个事物有所改变 因为如果它改变了,它似乎就会 瞬间进入到同样的那种经验中去 这也会成为一种伤害。这是一种伤害,但是这种伤害 会与那个‘无意识’产生共鸣作用,而这会让我想起 它提醒了我:即我因这种表面的伤害而受到了更深的伤害。
11:40 K: I understand that. 克:我理解这一点。
11:43 S: So that I avoid hurt, period. 西恩博格:于是我会去回避伤害,回避某一时期内的伤害。
11:46 K: Can the brain have a shock? Of course... a biological, physical shock... but the psychological brain, if we can call it that... must it be hurt? Is that inevitable? 克:大脑是否会因此而受到一种震动?当然了 从生物学和生理的角度讲,它会受到震动 但是那个‘心理上的大脑’——如果我们可以这样子称呼它的话 它一定也要受到伤害吗?那是不可避免的吗?
12:04 S: No, I don't think so. It's only hurt with reference to something. 西恩博格:不,我并不这么认为。 只有当涉及到某些事物时,它才会受伤。
12:09 K: No. I'm asking you... Can such a psychological brain, if I can use... those two words, never be hurt, under any circumstances? Given, you know, family life, husband... wife, bad friends, so-called enemies... all that's going on around you and never get hurt? Because apparently this is one of the major... wounds in human existence - to get hurt... the more sensitive you are, the more... aware, you get more and more hurt... more and more withdrawn. Is this inevitable? 克:不。我是在问你 这个‘心理上的大脑’——如果我可以使用 这个组合词的话——它能否在任何情况下,永远都不受到伤害? 假设,比方说,在家庭生活中,丈夫 妻子,不好的朋友,所谓的敌人 所有这些东西在你周围发生着,但你却从不会受到伤害? 因为很显然,这是人类存在中最主要的 创伤之一——那就是受到伤害 你越是敏感,你越是 有所觉知,你就会受到越多的伤害 你就越会退缩沉默。 这难道是在所难免的吗?
13:14 S: You're asking me? I don't think it's inevitable, but I think it happens frequently... more often than not. And it seems to happen when there is... how can I describe it... an attachment is formed and then the loss of the attachment. You become important to me. You become important to me, I like you, or I get involved with you... then it becomes important to me that you don't... do anything that disturbs that image. 西恩博格:你是在问我吗? 我认为它并非是在所难免的,但我觉得它是经常发生的事 通常来说都是如此。它之所以发生,看起来似乎是因为有着一种 我该怎么来描述它呢 某个执著形成了,然后你失去了那个执著之物。 你对我来说变得很重要。 你对我来说变得很重要,我喜欢你,我与你有了亲密的关系 然后对我来说,很重要的事就是你不能够去 做任何事干扰损害那个形象。
13:49 K: That is, in that relationship between two people... the picture that we have of each other... the image, that's the cause of hurt. 克:也就是说,在那种两个人的关系里 我们彼此都持有着对方的形象 那个意象,而这就是引发伤害的原因。
14:04 B: But it also goes the other way, that we hold those images... because of hurt.

K: Of course.
博姆:但它同样也会反着来,那就是我们之所以持有这些形象 是因为过往的伤害。

克:当然了。
14:09 B: Where does it start?

K: That's what I want to get at.
博姆:它从是哪里开始的?

克:这就是我想要去弄清楚的。
14:13 S: That's what I want to get at too. 西恩博格:这也是我想要去搞清楚的。
14:14 K: No, he pointed out something. 克:不,他指出了一些重要的东西。
14:16 S: Right. I know he did, yes. 西恩博格:对。这我知道,是的。
14:20 B: Because the past hurt... gives a tremendous strength to the image... the image which helps us to forget it - right? 博姆:因为过去的伤害 赋予了那个形象以巨大的力量 那个在帮助我们去忘记它的形象——对吗?
14:27 S: That's right. 西恩博格:对。
14:28 K: Now, is this wound in the unconscious? We'll use the word... 'unconscious' in quotes for the time being - is that hidden? 克:那么,这种创伤是存在于无意识中的吗? 我们暂时将会用一下 ‘无意识’这个词,不过是加上引号的——它(无意识)是隐藏的吗?
14:38 S: Well, I think you are being a little simplistic about that... because what is hidden is the fact that... I have had the event happen... many times, it happened with my mother... it happened with my friends... it's happened before, in school... where I cared about somebody... and then the image - it's like... you form the attachment and then the hurt. 西恩博格:呃,我觉得你稍微有点把它简单化了 因为隐藏的事实是 我曾经多次遭遇过那些事件 我和我母亲的事情 我和我朋友之间的事情 它是那些以前发生过的事情,在学校的时候 我喜欢某人 然后那个形象——这就像是 你建立起了某个执著,然后伤害就产生了。
15:02 K: I'm not at all sure that through attachment it comes. 克:我完全不相信它是经由执著而产生的。
15:08 S: I think, it's something... May be it's not attachment, maybe that's the wrong word... but there is something there that happens. What happens that I form... a relationship with you where an image becomes important? What you do to me becomes important. 西恩博格:我觉得,它是某种 或许那并不是执著,也许这个词用错了 但是那里确实有某些东西发生了。 发生的事情就是,我与你建立起了 一种关系,在这种关系中,形象变得至关重要? 你对我所做的事情变得很重要。
15:24 K: You have an image about yourself. 克:你也有着一个关于自己的形象。
15:26 S: That's right. And you are saying that I like you... because you are confirming my image? 西恩博格:没错。你是不是在说,我之所以喜欢你 是因为你肯定了我的形象?
15:33 K: No, apart from like and dislike, apart from like and dislike... you have an image about yourself. I come along, put a pin in that image. 克:不,这事和喜不喜欢无关,它和喜不喜欢没有关系 你有着一个关于自己的形象。 然后我出现了,戳破了这个形象。
15:44 S: No, first you come along and confirm it. 西恩博格:不,你是先过来然后肯定了它。
15:46 K: No.

B: The hurt will be greater... if you first come along and be very friendly to me... and confirm the image, and then suddenly you put a pin in me.
克:不是。

博姆:那样的话,伤害就更大了 因为你先过来,对我非常友好 并且肯定了那个形象,然后突然之间,你戳破了我。
15:53 K: Of course, of course. 克:当然了,当然了。
15:55 B: But even somebody who didn't confirm it... if he puts the pin in properly... he can produce that hurt.

K: That's what I...
博姆:但即使是某个没有肯定它的人 要是他戳到了点子上 他还是可以带来那种伤害。

克:这就是我想
16:03 S: That's right. That's not unconscious. But how come, like you said... why did I have the image to begin with? That's unconscious. 西恩博格:没错。所以这并不是无意识。 但是它怎么会……就像你说的 为什么我开始有了一个形象?这就是无意识了。
16:11 K: Is it unconscious? That's what I want to get at. Or it's so obvious... that we don't look? You follow what I'm saying? 克:这是无意识吗?这就是我想要去弄清楚的。 还是说它是如此的显而易见 以至于我们没有去看它?你明白我说的话吗?
16:24 S: I follow what you're saying, yes. I'm with you on this. 西恩博格:我明白你所说的话,是的,在这一点上我同意你。
16:27 K: We put it away. We say it's hidden. I question it... whether it's hidden at all; it's so blatantly obvious. 克:我们把它藏起来。然后我们说它是隐藏的。然而我质疑这一点 它究竟是不是隐藏的?它是如此的显而易见。
16:40 S: I wonder if all the ingredients of it are... I tell you, I don't feel all parts of it are obvious. 西恩博格:我在想是否它所有的成分都是 我想告诉你的是,我并不觉得它所有的部分都是显而易见的。
16:49 B: I think that we hide it in one sense... say we say that this hurt... means that everything is wrong with the image... but we hide it by saying... everything is all right, for example. In other words, the thing that is obvious may be hidden... by saying it's unimportant, that we don't notice it. 博姆:我认为我们之所以隐藏它,从某种意义上来说 比方说,我们会说这个伤害 意味着关于那个形象的一切都是错误的 然而我们将其隐藏起来,我们说 比如,我们说一切都好好的没有问题。 换句话说,那个显而易见的事物或许也会变成隐藏的 我们说它是不重要的,然后对它视而不见。
17:08 S: Yes, we don't notice it, but it's like... I get the feeling as we are... talking, personally I get the feeling... there is a kind of, I ask myself... what is it that kind of generates the image... what is that hurt? 西恩博格:是的,我们不去注意它,但是这就像是 在我们交谈的时候,我有一种感觉 就个人而言,我觉得 存在着一种……我问自己 那种产生出形象的东西是什么 那种伤害是什么?
17:22 K: Ah, we will come to that. I'm trying... we are enquiring into the... whole structure of consciousness. 克:啊,我们将会来探讨这一点的。我正试图 我们正在探究 意识的整个结构。
17:31 S: Right. That's just what we are enquiring into… 西恩博格:没错。这正是我们在探询的东西
17:34 K: Into the nature of consciousness. We have broken it up into the hidden... and the open. It may be that the fragmented mind is doing that. 克:探询意识的本质。 我们已经分裂了意识,将它划分为隐藏的 和公开的。 而这或许是那个支离破碎的头脑做的事情。
17:50 S: That's right. 西恩博格:对。
17:54 K: And therefore strengthening both. 克:因此两者都得到了加强。
18:00 K: The division grows greater and greater. 克:那种分裂变得越来越巨大。
18:05 S: The fragmented mind is...

K: ...doing this. Now, most people have an image about themselves... practically everybody.
西恩博格:那个支离破碎的头脑……

克:……做了这件事。 我想说,大多数人都持有着关于自己的形象 几乎人人都有。
18:21 S: Practically everybody. 西恩博格:几乎每一个人都有。
18:22 K: It's that image that gets hurt. And that image is you, and you say, 'Well, I'm hurt'. 克:是那个形象受到了伤害。 而那个形象就是你,你说,‘啊,我受到了伤害’。
18:34 B: It's the same as we were discussing this morning. 博姆:这和我们今天早上讨论的东西是一样的。
18:36 K: Yes. 克:是的。
18:37 B: If I say I have a pleasant self-image, then I attribute... the pleasure to me - right? and say, that's real. Then if somebody hurts me then the pain is attributed to me... and I say that's real too - right? It seems that if you have an image... that can give you pleasure then it must be able to give you pain. 博姆:要是我说我有着一个令人愉悦的自我形象,那么我就会把那种快感 归到‘我’的头上——对吗?然后说,它是真实的。 然后,要是有人伤害了我,那么那种痛苦也会被归到‘我’的头上 我会说,那也是真实的——对吗? 看起来,如果你持有一个形象的话 那么它将可以带给你快感,同时它也必然会带给你痛苦。
18:58 K: Pain, yes.

B: There is no way out of that.
克:痛苦,是的。

博姆:你无路可逃。
19:00 K: Absolutely. 克:完全正确。
19:01 S: The image tends to be self-perpetuating... like you were saying about difficult relation. 西恩博格:那个形象有着自我延续的倾向 就像当你在谈论关于困难关系时所说的那样。
19:05 B: I think people hope that the image will give them pleasure. 博姆:我相信人们会希望那个形象可以带给他们快感。
19:08 K: Pleasure only. 克:只带来快感。
19:09 B: Only pleasure, but the very mechanism... that makes pleasure possible... makes pain possible because, the pleasure comes if I say... 'I think I'm good' and that 'I' is also sensed to be real... which makes that goodness real... but then if somebody comes along... and says, 'You're no good, you're stupid' and so on... then that too is real, and therefore very significant. It makes it hurt. Right? 博姆:只带来快感,但是那个机制本身 由于它可能制造出快感 所以也可能制造出痛苦,因为要是我说 ‘我认为我很优秀’的话,快感就会出现,那个‘我’让人感觉是真实的 这让那种‘优秀’也变得真实了 但要是有人过来 说,‘你并不优秀,你是个笨蛋’等等这些 那么这同样也是真实的,因此它就变得意义重大了。 这会让它受伤。对吗?
19:34 K: The image brings both pleasure and pain. 克:形象既带来了快感,也带来了痛苦。
19:37 B: Yes. 博姆:是的。
19:39 S: Right. 西恩博格:没错。
19:40 K: Put it very, very simply. 克:这是一种极其简单的表述。
19:43 B: I think people would hope for an image... that would bring only pleasure, but it can't be done. 博姆:我认为人们会希望那个形象 只带来快感,但这是不可能实现的。
19:47 S: People do hope, there is no question about it. People not only hope for the image... but they invest all their interest... in their image, they see themselves as… they say, 'I should not be this way... because I'm in fact the image'. So that they go both ways at the same time. That's the most curious thing about the mind. I'm the image... but when I discover that I'm not the image... then I should be that way... because I really am that. So it works both ways. 西恩博格:人们的确希望这样,这是毫无疑问的。 人们不仅对那个形象抱有希望 而且他们还将自己全部的兴趣爱好 投入到他们的形象中去,他们将自己视为 他们说,‘我不应该这样子 因为我实际上就是那个形象’。 所以他们是从两个方面同时进行的。 这是关于头脑的最奇怪的事情。我就是那个形象 然而当我发现我并不是那个形象时 然后我就应该成为那样的 因为我其实就是那个形象。所以它是从两个方面运作的。
20:18 B: But the image, I think that if you make the self-image... and you get what's implied in that; that is to say everything depends on... having the self image right. In other words... 博姆:但是对于那个形象来说,我认为要是你制造出了自我形象 你就得承受它所隐含的东西; 也就是说,一切事物都取决于 那个自我形象的正确性。换句话说
20:32 S: Right, everything. 西恩博格:是的,一切事物。
20:33 B: The value of everything depends on this self image being right. So, if somebody shows it's wrong, therefore everything... is no good, everything is wrong. 博姆:一切事物的价值都取决于这个自我形象的正确性。 所以,要是有人证明它是错的,那么所有事物 都变得很糟糕,所有事物都是错误的了。
20:46 K: We are always giving new shape to the image. 克:我们总是在赋予那个形象新的模样。
20:50 B: But I think that this image means everything. So it gives it tremendous power. 博姆:但我认为这个形象就意味着一切。 而这赋予了它巨大的力量。
20:54 S: The entire personality is directed... to the achievement of this image. In other words, everything else takes second place. 西恩博格:一个人的全部存在都会指向 去实现这个形象。 换句话说,其他一切事物都是次要的了。
21:04 K: Are you aware of this?

S: Yes, I'm aware of it.
克:你觉察到这一点了吗?

西恩博格:是的,我觉察到它了。
21:08 K: What is the beginning of this? Please, just let me summarise first. Every human being practically... has an image about himself... of which he's unconscious, or not aware. 克:它是从哪里开始的? 拜托,先让我把它总结完。 每一个人几乎 都有着一个关于他自己的形象 这个形象是他未曾意识到,或者说未曾觉察到的。
21:21 S: Usually it's some sort of idealised... 西恩博格:它通常都是某种理想化
21:24 K: Idealised, or not idealised, it's an image. 克:理想化,或者非理想化,它都是一个形象。
21:27 S: Right. It's an image, it's idealised... and they must have it. 西恩博格:没错。它是一个形象,它被理想化了 而人们必须要有这么个形象。
21:33 K: They have it.

B: They have it.
克:人们拥有形象。

博姆:人们拥有它。
21:34 S: They must get all their actions towards 'must have it'. In other words, to accomplish it, to realise it. 西恩博格:他们必定会让自己全部的行动都指向‘必须要拥有它’。 换句话说,去达到它,去实现它。
21:40 B: One feels one's whole life depends on the image. 博姆:我们会觉得自己全部的生命都依赖于那个形象。
21:43 K: Yes. 克:是的。
21:44 S: Depression is when I don't have it. 西恩博格:当我没有了那个形象,我就会消沉沮丧。
21:47 K: We will come to that. Then the next question, how does it come into being? 克:我们会来讨论这一点的。 然后,接下来的问题是,它是如何出现的?
21:58 S: I think it comes into being when as children there is this hurt... and there is the feeling that there is no other way... in which this hurt can be assuaged or relieved. It works in the family in some way. You are my father and... I understand through my watching you that... if I'm smart you will like me. 西恩博格:我认为它是这样产生的:小的时候,我们受到了某种伤害 而我们觉得自己没有其他途径 可以去平息或者缓和这种伤害。 从某种程度上讲,它会发生在家庭中。 你是我的父亲 而我通过观察你而明白了 要是我是一个聪明的孩子,那你就会喜欢我。
22:34 K: Quite. 克:对。
22:35 S: I learn that very quickly. So I'm going to make sure I get that love... so I'm going to go from here to there. I'm going to become that. 西恩博格:我很快就认识到了这一点。 于是为了确保我能获得父爱 我就会从这里去往那里。 我会准备去变成那样子的人。
22:44 K: That's all very simple. But I'm asking the beginning of it. The origin of making images about oneself. 克:这是很简单的道理。 然而我在问的是它的起点。 那个制造自己形象的源头是什么。
22:54 B: If I had no image at all... then I would never get into that, would I? 博姆:要是我完全不持有任何形象的话 我就永远不会陷入其中了,我会吗?
22:58 K: That's what I want to get at. 克:这就是我想要去搞清楚的。
23:00 S: If I never made images. 西恩博格:要是我从来不制造任何形象的话。
23:01 B: If I never made any image at all... no matter what my father did... that would have no effect, would it? 博姆:要是我从来不制造任何形象 那么不管我的父亲做了什么 它都不会产生影响,对吗?
23:07 S: That's the question.

K: This is very important.
西恩博格:这就是问题所在。

克:这一点非常重要。
23:10 B: I'm saying may be the child can't do it, but suppose so. 博姆:我想说也许那个孩子是无法做到它的,但是假设他可以做到。
23:12 K: I'm not sure, I'm not at all sure. 克:我不确定,我完全不确定这件事。
23:14 B: Perhaps he can, but at least under ordinary conditions... he doesn't manage to do it. 博姆:他或许可以,但至少在通常的情况下 他并不会设法去这样做。
23:19 S: You are suggesting that the child... already has an image that it has been hurt. 西恩博格:你在暗示的是,那个孩子 已经有了一个形象,并且那个形象遭到了伤害。
23:23 K: Ah, no. I don't know. We are asking. 克:啊,不是。我不知道。我们只是在问。
23:27 B: But suppose there were a child who made no images of himself. 博姆:但是假设有一个孩子,他没有制造自我的形象。
23:32 S: OK, let's assume he has no image. 西恩博格:好吧,让我们假定他没有形象。
23:34 B: Then he cannot get hurt. 博姆:那么他就不会受到伤害了。
23:35 K: He can't be hurt. 克:他不可能被伤害。
23:37 S: Now, you see, I think you're in very hot water... psychologically because a child... 西恩博格:啊,你瞧,我觉得你们已陷入了极大的困境中 心理上的困境。因为一个孩子
23:44 K: No, we said 'suppose'.

S: Suppose.
克:不,我们说的是‘假设’。

西恩博格:假设。
23:48 B: Not the actual child, but rather... suppose there were a child... who didn't make an image of himself, so he didn't depend... on that image for everything. The child you talk about depended... on the image that his father loves him. And therefore everything goes... when his father doesn't love him... everything has gone. Right?

S: Right.
博姆:并不是真有那样的孩子,而是 假设有这么一个孩子 他没有制造出自我的形象,那么他就不会依赖于 那个形象来获得一切。 而你所说的那个孩子,他依赖于 那个‘父亲要爱他’的形象。 因此,一切事物 都会因他的父亲不再爱他而消失 一切东西都没了。对吗?

西恩博格:没错。
24:07 B: Therefore he's hurt.

S: That's right.
博姆:所以他受到了伤害。

西恩博格:对。
24:09 B: But if he has no image that he must have his father love him... then he will just watch his father. 博姆:然而,如果他没有那个‘父亲必须要爱他’的形象 那么他就只会冷眼旁观他的父亲。
24:17 S: The child who is watching his father... Let's say, let's look at it... a little more pragmatically, here is the child... and he's actually hurt. 西恩博格:那个孩子会冷眼旁观他的父亲 比方说,让我们 稍微实际一点地来看一下它,这里有一个孩子 他确实遭到了伤害。
24:26 B: But wait, he can't be hurt without the image. 博姆:等一下,要是他没有形象的话,他就不可能受到伤害了。
24:29 S: Well, that's...

B: What's going to get hurt?
西恩博格:呃,那是……

博姆:那时又是什么在受伤害呢?
24:31 K: There is no… (laughs) It's like putting a pin into the air! 克:那时就没有……(笑) 这就像是拿针去刺空气!
24:36 S: No, wait a second, I'm not going to let you guys... get away with this! (Laughter) Here you have this child, very vulnerable... in the sense that he needs physiological support. He has enormous tensions. 西恩博格:不,等一下。我是不会让你们这些家伙 侥幸成功的!(笑声) 比如这里有这样一个孩子,他非常敏感脆弱 这是从他需要生理上的供养的角度来说的。 他有着强烈的紧张感。
24:51 K: Sir, agreed to all that. Such a child has an image. 克:先生,我同意这一切。这样的孩子就会持有一个形象。
24:57 S: No, no image. He's simply not being biologically supported. 西恩博格:不,他没有形象。他只是没有得到生物学意义上的供养。
25:02 K: No. Eh? 克:没有形象。啊?
25:06 B: Well, he may make an image of the fact... that he's not biologically supported. We have to get the difference between... the actual fact that happens biologically... and what he thinks of it. Right? I have seen a child sometimes dropped suddenly... and he really goes to pieces... not because he was dropped very far but because that sense of... 博姆:呃,他也许会制造出一个形象:即实际上 他没有得到生理意义上的供养。 我们必须要看到的是 那种生理上实际发生的事情 和他对此的看法这两者之间的区别。对吗? 我看到过一个孩子,当你突然扔下他一个人不管时 他真的会崩溃 这并不是因为他被扔在很远的地方了,而是因为那种感受
25:25 K: Loss, insecurity. 克:那种失去,那种不安全感。
25:27 B: ...security from his mother was gone. It seemed that everything had gone. And he was totally disorganised and screaming, but he dropped... only about this far. But... the point is he had an image... of the kind of security he was going to get from his mother. 博姆:……那种来自他母亲的安全感消失了。 看起来似乎一切都失去了。 他会变得毫无头绪,不知所措,并且开始大喊大叫,然而他只是被扔到了 这么点远的地方。可是 重点在于他持有一个形象 即他将会从母亲那里获得那种安全感。
25:42 S: That's the way the nervous systems works. 西恩博格:这就是神经系统的运作方式。
25:44 B: Well, that's the question, the thing we are discussing... is it necessary to work that way? Or is this the result of conditioning? 博姆:嗯,这就是问题所在,也是我们在讨论的东西 我们必需要以这样的方式来运作吗? 还是说它是我们自身局限的产物?
25:50 K: Yes.

S: Yes, I would say yes.
克:是的。

西恩博格:是的,我觉得是的。
25:53 K: This is an important question.

S: Oh, terribly important.
克:这是一个很重要的问题。

西恩博格:噢,它是无比重要的。
25:57 K: Because when you've watched... been in America or in this country... children are running away from their parents... thousands are running away. The parents seem to have no control over them. They don't obey... they don't listen, they don't - you follow? They are wild. 克:因为当你看到了 在美国或者这个国家的情况时 孩子纷纷逃离他们的父母 成千上万的孩子逃走了。 而父母似乎无法管住他们。 孩子们并不服从 他们不听话,他们不……——你跟上了吗?他们变得很放肆。
26:18 S: Yes. 西恩博格:是的。
26:20 K: And the parents feel terribly hurt. I saw on the TV what is happening in America. And the woman was in tears - you follow? She said 'I'm his mother... he doesn't treat me as a mother, he just orders me... give me a bottle of milk', and all the rest of it. And he has run away half a dozen times. And this is growing... this separation between the parents... and the children is growing all over the world. They have no relationship... between themselves, between each other. So, what is the cause of all this? apart from sociological, economic... pressures and all that... which makes the mother go and work and leave the child alone... and he plays... all that, we take that for granted... but much deeper than that? Is it the parents have an image about themselves... and the parents insist... in creating an image in the children? 克:于是父母感到了深深的伤害。 我在电视上看到了美国正在发生的事情。 那些女人们在哭泣——你明白了吗? 她说‘我是他的母亲 然而他却不把我当成母亲,他只是命令我 快给我一瓶牛奶’,等等这些。 然后他一次次地跑开。 而这种现象正愈演愈烈 纵观全世界,父母和孩子之间的鸿沟 正变得越来越大。 他们之间 他们彼此之间并没有关系。 所以,造成这一切的原因是什么? 撇开那些社会学上的压力、经济学上的压力 等等这些东西不谈 它们使得母亲去工作,撇下孩子一个人不管 于是孩子去玩某些东西……等等这些,我们把这些视为是理所当然的 但是比这更深层次的原因是什么? 是不是父母持有一个关于他们自己的形象 然后父母坚持 要在孩子身上创造出这个形象?
27:38 S: I see what you are saying. 西恩博格:我明白你说的意思。
27:40 K: And the child refuses to have that image... but he has his own image. So the battle is on. 克:然而孩子拒绝了那个形象 因为他也有着他自己的形象。 于是便有了斗争。
27:50 S: That's very much what I'm saying when I say... that initially the hurt of the child... 西恩博格:这正是我在说的东西,我说了 最初的时候,孩子所遭受到的伤害
27:54 K: We haven't come to the hurt yet. 克:我们还没有讲到伤害。
27:57 S: But that's where I'm trying to get at, what is in that... initial relationship? What is the initial relationship between child... 西恩博格:但这就是我试图去搞清楚的地方,在那种 最初的关系中存在的是什么? 那种最初的关系是什么?即孩子和
28:05 K: I doubt if they have any relation. That's what I'm trying to point out. 克:我质疑他们之间是否存在关系。 这正是我所试图指出的东西。
28:09 S: I agree with you. There is something wrong with the relationship. They have a relationship but it's a wrong relationship. 西恩博格:我同意你的说法。 那种关系中出现了一些问题。 他们之间有着一种关系,但那是一种错误的关系。
28:18 K: Have they a relationship?

S: They have a...
克:他们之间有关系吗?

西恩博格:他们之间有着一种
28:22 K: Young people get married, or not married. They have a child... by mistake or intentionally. The young people... they are children themselves... they haven't understood the universe... cosmos, order or chaos, they just have this child. 克:年轻人结婚了,或者不结婚。他们不小心有了孩子 或者是特意生了孩子。那些年轻人 他们自己还是孩子 他们还没有了解这个宇宙 了解和谐、秩序或者混乱是什么。他们就这样生了孩子。
28:46 S: Right. That's what happens. 西恩博格:没错。这就是发生的事情。
28:48 K: And they play with it for a year or 2 and they say... 'For god's sake I'm fed up with this child'... .and look elsewhere. And the child feels left, lost.

S: That's right.
克:他们和这个小孩子玩了一两年,然后说 ‘看在上帝的份上,我受够这个小孩了’ 然后便将目光投向其他地方去了。 于是那个孩子感觉受到了冷落,感觉很迷茫。

西恩博格:没错。
29:04 K: And he needs security, from the beginning he needs security. 克:可是他需要安全,从一开始的时候,他就需要安全。
29:10 S: Right. 西恩博格:对。
29:11 K: Which the parents cannot give, or are incapable of giving... psychological security, the sense of... 'You are my child, I love you... I'll look after you, I'll see that throughout life... you behave properly' - care. They haven't got that, that feeling. 克:然而父母无法给予它,或者说没有能力去给予 那种心理上的安全,给他带来这样的感觉 那就是‘你是我的孩子,我爱你 我将会照顾你,我将会在这一生中去确保 你能正确地去行动’——那种关爱。 他们没有这些东西,没有这种感受。
29:26 S: Right. 西恩博格:对。
29:28 K: They are bored with it after a couple of years. 克:没过几年,他们就厌烦了孩子。
29:32 S: That's right. 西恩博格:没错。
29:34 K: Right?

S: Yes.
克:对吗?

西恩博格:对。
29:37 K: Is it that they have no relationship... right from the beginning... neither the husband nor the wife, or boy or girl? It's only a sexual relationship... the pleasure relationship. In accepting that they won't accept the pain principle... involved in the pleasure principle. 克:这是不是因为他们之间并没有关系 从一开始的时候就没有关系 不管是夫妻之间,还是情侣之间? 他们只有性方面的关系 那种带来快感的关系。 在接受这种关系的同时,他们却不肯接受那种包含在 快感本质中的痛苦本质。
30:05 S: That's right. They won't, and not only that... they won't let the child go through that. 西恩博格:没错。他们不肯接受。不仅如此 他们还不肯让孩子去经历这一切。
30:11 K: The child is going through that. 克:孩子正在经历着这一切。
30:13 S: Yes, but they do things that they... don't let the child have the pleasure... that goes all the way... nor do they let the child have the pain... 西恩博格:是的,但是父母做了一些事情 他们不让孩子拥有那种 和他们一样的快感 他们也不让孩子拥有痛苦
30:23 K: So what I'm trying to see is... that there is actually no relationship at all... except biological, sexual, sensory relationship. 克:所以我所试图去看到的就是 他们之间实际上根本就不存在关系 除了那种生理上的、性方面的、感官上的关系。
30:40 S: Yes. OK. 西恩博格:是的。好吧。
30:42 K: I'm questioning it... I'm not saying it is so, I'm questioning it. 克:我在质疑它 我并没有说它就是如此,我只是在质疑它。
30:47 S: I don't think it's so. I think that they have a relationship... but it's a wrong relationship, that there are all kinds of... 西恩博格:我认为不是这样的。我认为他们还是有着一种关系的 只不过那是一种错误的关系,那种关系中存在着各种
30:55 K: There is no wrong relationship... it's a relationship, or no relationship. 克:并不存在什么错误的关系 要么存在一种关系,要么就没有关系。
31:01 S: Well, then we will have to say they have a relationship. Now we will have to understand the relationship. But I think that most parents... have a relationship with their child. 西恩博格:那么,我们会说他们是有着一种关系的。 现在,我们必须去了解那种关系。 而我觉得大多数的父母 和他们的孩子还是有着一种关系的。
31:13 B: Wouldn't you say it's the image that's related? Suppose... the parent and child have images of each other... and the relationship is governed by those images... the question is whether that's actually... a relationship or not, or whether... it's some sort of fantasy of relationship. 博姆:你会不会觉得,那是形象之间的关系?假如 父母和孩子都有着关于对方的形象 那么那种关系就是被这些形象所支配的 问题就在于那是否真的是 一种关系,还是说它是 某种关系的幻觉。
31:30 K: A fanciful relationship.

B: Yes.
克:一种幻想出来的关系。

博姆:是的。
31:33 K: Sir, you have children... - forgive me if I come back to you... Have you any relationship with them? In the real sense of that word. 克:先生,你也有孩子 ——请原谅我又要把矛头指向你了 你和你的孩子们有任何关系吗? 真正意义上的关系。
31:41 S: Yes. In the real sense, yes. 西恩博格:我们有关系。真正意义上的关系,是的。
31:45 K: That means that you have no image about yourself. 克:那意味着,你没有关于自己的形象。
31:49 S: Right. 西恩博格:对。
31:52 K: And you are not imposing an image on them. 克:并且你也没有把某个形象强加于他们。
31:55 S: That's right. 西恩博格:没错。
31:56 K: And the society is not imposing an image on them. 克:而这个社会也没有把某个形象强加于他们。
32:00 S: There are moments like that. 西恩博格:有一些片刻的确是这样的。
32:02 K: Ah no, that's not good enough. - like a rotten egg! (Laughs) 克:啊,不,这还不够好。 ——就像是一个不可信赖的人!(笑)
32:06 S: This is an important point. 西恩博格:这是一个要点。
32:08 B: If it's moments, it's not so. It's like saying a person who is hurt... has moments when he's not hurt, but it's sitting there... waiting to explode when something happens. 博姆:如果它只是片刻,那它就不是。 这就像是说那个受到了伤害的人 尽管他有着那些没有伤害的时刻,但那个伤害仍旧存在于那里 它等待着,当触发了某些条件时,它就会爆发。
32:16 K: yes. 克:是的。
32:18 B: So he can't go very far. It's like somebody who is tied to a rope... as soon as he reaches the limits of that rope he's stuck. 博姆:所以他走不了多远。 这就像是一个人被绳子拴住了 一旦当他走到了绳子长度范围的极限时,他就寸步难行了。
32:24 S: That's right. 西恩博格:没错。
32:26 B: So you could say, I'm related as long... as certain things are all right... but then beyond that point it sort of blows up. You see what I'm driving at?

S: I see what you are driving at.
博姆:所以你可以说,只要 某些事物还安然无恙,那么我就是有关系的 然而当超出了那个点时,它就爆炸了。 你明白我想要说的东西吗?

西恩博格:我明白你想表达的意思。
32:36 B: That mechanism is inside there, buried... so that it dominates you potentially. 博姆:那种机制是内在的,它潜藏在那里 由此它便可以潜在地支配你。
32:42 S: In fact what you just said is fact. I verify that that's what happens. In other words... it seems that there are... but it does seem... that there are moments in which they are... 西恩博格:实际上你刚才说的正是事实。 我也查证了发生的事情。换句话说 看起来似乎有着……看起来的确有着 一些时刻,在这些时刻中,他们
32:55 B: Well, it's like a man who is tied to a rope and he says... there are moments when I can move... wherever I like, but I can't really because... if I keep on moving I'm bound to come to the end. 博姆:嗯,这就像是一个人被拴了绳子,他会说 我有一些可以自由活动的时刻 我可以想去哪里去哪里,但我其实无法真的自由活动,因为 要是我保持不断前进,我就一定会达到一个极限点。
33:04 S: That does seem to be what happens, in fact... there is a reverberation in which there is yank-back. 西恩博格:这看起来的确就是发生的事情,事实上 会有一种反射,在这种反射中会有‘猛然的拉回’。
33:11 B: Yes. Either I come to the end of the cord... or else something yanks the cord and then... - but the person who is on the cord... is really not free, ever. 博姆:是的,要么我达到了那根绳索的终点 要么某个事物会猛拉那根绳索,于是就 ——然而那个拴着绳索的人 其实永远没有自由。
33:20 S: That's true, I mean, I think that's true. 西恩博格:说的对。我的意思是,我觉得的确如此。
33:24 B: In the same sense, the person who has the image... is not really related ever, you see. 博姆:同样的道理,那个持有形象的人 你瞧,他永远都不会有真正的关系。
33:29 K: That's just the whole point. You can play with it. You can play with the verbal… But actually you have no relationship. 克:这就是要点所在。 你可以去玩弄它。 你可以去玩弄概念 但实际上你并没有关系。
33:43 S: You have no relationship as long as it's the image. 西恩博格:只要它仍旧是形象,你们之间就不会有关系。
33:48 K: As long as you have an image about yourself... you have no relationship with another. This is a tremendous revelation - you follow? It's not just an intellectual statement. 克:只要你还是持有关于自己的形象 你和他人之间就不会产生关系。 这是一个惊人的揭示——你明白了吗? 这并不只是一种智力上的陈述。
34:14 S: Let me share with you something, I resent this… 西恩博格:我想和你们分享一些东西,我很讨厌这个
34:17 K: I see that.

S: You see that. I mean, I get rather angry with you. (Laughter) There is a real... and we have seen this in other places.
克:我看出来了。

西恩博格:你看出来了。 我的意思是,你让我感到很生气。 (笑声)有着一种真正的 而我们在其他地方见到过它。
34:27 B: It always happens in analysis, doesn't it? 博姆:在分析中总是会发生这样的事情,不是吗?
34:30 S: It happens in analysis. But I was thinking we had psychotherapy meetings... in the meeting with the psychotherapists, this came up. There is a tremendous resentment to say... - because I have the memory of times... when I do have what I think is a relationship... yet I must be honest with you and say... that after such relationship... there inevitably seems to be this yank-back. 西恩博格:在分析的过程中会发生这样的事。 我想到了我们曾经进行过精神疗法的聚会 在与精神治疗师的会面中,也发生了这样的事。 因为这种说法,而产生了一种极大的愤恨 因为我有着关于那些时光的记忆 我确实拥有着那种我所认为的‘关系’ 然而我还是必须对你坦诚地说 在这样的关系之后, 似乎不可避免地会有这种‘猛然拉回’。
34:52 B: The yanking of the cord. 博姆:那条绳索在‘猛然拉回’。
34:54 S: So I must, I mean… (Laughter) There is that. There is no question that the image... - there is a place... where you say you have a relationship with somebody... but you will go just so far.

B: Yes.
西恩博格:所以我必然会,我的意思是……(笑声) 就是这样。毫无疑问,那个形象 会有它的位置 你会说你和某人有了一种关系 但是你将只能走那么远。

博姆:是的。
35:12 S: And that's when the image comes in. 西恩博格:因为那时形象就介入进来了。
35:14 B: Right. But then really... the image controls it all the time... because the image is the dominant factor. If you once pass that point... no matter what happens, the image takes over. 博姆:对。但那时其实是 形象一直在控制着它 因为形象是支配性的要素。 一旦你超过了那个点 那么无论发生什么,那个形象都会接管一切。
35:23 S: That's right. It's like that stuff of René Thom's 西恩博格:没错。这有点像是雷内·托姆(法国数学家)说的东西。
35:28 B: Yes, it goes…

S: It goes right down.
博姆:是的,它……

西恩博格:它直接下去了。
35:31 K: So, the image gets hurt. And the child... do you impose an image on the child? You are bound to, because you have an image. 克:所以,是形象受到了伤害。 而孩子 你是否把形象强加于孩子身上? 你一定会这样做,因为你也持有着一个形象。
35:48 S: You are trying to.

K: No.
西恩博格:你会试图去这样做。

克:不对。
35:49 B: You have to. 博姆:你一定会这么去做。
35:51 S: Well, you are working at it and the child picks it up... or he doesn't pick it up. 西恩博格:嗯,你在致力于这个形象,而孩子学会了这个形象 或者他没有学会它。
35:55 K: No, no. Because you have an image about yourself... you are bound to create an image in the child. 克:不,不是。因为你有着一个关于自己的形象 所以你必定会为孩子制造出一个形象。
36:01 S: That's right. 西恩博格:对。
36:03 K: Ah, sir. You follow, you have discovered? 克:啊,先生。你明白了吗?你发现它了吗?
36:06 S: Yes. 西恩博格:发现了。
36:11 K: And society is doing this to all of us. 克:而社会也在对我们所有人做着这样的事情。
36:14 B: So you say the child is picking up an image just naturally... as it were, quietly and then suddenly it gets hurt. 博姆:所以你说孩子就好像是很自然地 不知不觉地就获得了一个形象,然后那个形象突然就受到了伤害。
36:21 K: Hurt. That's right. 克:伤害。是的。
36:22 B: So, the hurt has been prepared and preceded... by this steady process of building an image. 博姆:所以说,伤害已经通过 这种建立形象的顽固过程而被准备好和埋下伏笔了。
36:27 S: Right. Well, there is evidence, for instance... we treat boys differently than the way we treat girls. 西恩博格:对。呃,有一些证据,比如 我们对待男孩的方式相比我们对待女孩的方式有很大的不同。
36:33 K: Look at it, don't verbalise it too quickly. 克:观察它,不要急着将它脱口而出。
36:38 B: If the steady process of building an image didn't occur... then there would be no basis, no structure to get hurt. In other words, the pain is due entirely... to some psychological factor... some thought which is attributed... to me in saying 'I'm suffering this pain'... Whereas I was previously... enjoying the pleasure of saying 'My father loves me... I'm doing what he wants.' Now comes the pain... 'I'm not doing what he wants, he doesn't love me'. 博姆:要是那种建立形象的顽固过程没有发生的话 那么就不会有受到伤害的基础与结构了。 换句话说,痛苦完全是由于 某种心理上的因素而导致的 某些思想在说——这些思想被归为‘我’—— ‘我正在受苦受难’ 然而我之前 享受了那种快感,我说‘我的父亲爱我 我按照他的想法行事。’而现在,痛苦出现了 ‘我’不再按照他的想法去做,于是他不再爱我’。
37:15 K: Simple. Yes. 克:很简单的道理。是这样的。
37:16 S: But what about the initial hurts? I mean the child… 西恩博格:但那种最初的伤害又怎么解释呢?我的意思是那个孩子
37:20 K: No, if you once... 克:不,一旦你
37:22 B: I think, we have gone beyond that point. 博姆:我想我们已经翻过这一页了。
37:24 K: Beyond that point. 克:翻过这一页了。
37:25 S: I don't think we touched on the fact... of the biological situation... of the child feeling neglected. 西恩博格:但我认为我们还没有触及到 那个生物学上的实际情况 即孩子会感觉被忽视了。
37:37 B: Well, that's still - oh you mean - If the child is neglected... I think that he must pick up an image in that very process. 博姆:呃,但那仍旧是——噢,你的意思是—— 要是孩子被忽视了 我认为他一定会在那个过程之中获得某个形象。
37:47 K: Of course. If you admit, once you admit, see the reality... that as long as the parents have an image about themselves... they are bound to give that image to the child, an image. 克:当然了。要是你能承认,一旦当你承认,看清了那个真相 即只要父母还是有着关于他们自身的形象 他们就必定会给予孩子那个形象,给予他们一个形象。
37:58 B: It's the image that makes the parent neglect the child. 博姆:正是那个形象让父母忽视了孩子。
38:02 S: Well, you're right there.

K: It's right.
西恩博格:嗯,这一点你说对了。

克:很对。
38:05 S: There is no question as long as the parent is an image-maker... and has an image, then he can't see the child. 西恩博格:这一点没有问题,即只要父母还是形象的制造者 并且持有一个形象,那么他就无法看清孩子。
38:17 K: And therefore gives an image to the child. 克:于是他会赋予孩子一个形象。
38:20 S: Right. You condition the child to be into something. 西恩博格:对。你会制约那个孩子去成为那样的。
38:23 K: Yes. 克:是的。
38:24 B: And at first perhaps through pleasure, then he will get hurt. But if he begins by neglecting him... I think the process of neglect... is also the result of an image and... he must communicate an image to the child... as he neglects the child.

S: Which is neglect.
博姆:最开始时也许是通过快感,然后他便会受伤。 但要是父亲一开始的时候就忽视了他 我认为这个忽视的过程 同样也是某种形象的结果 他必然会将那个形象传达给孩子 在他忽视孩子的过程中。

西恩博格:即‘忽视’的形象。
38:36 B: Yes, that neglect is the image which he communicates. 博姆:是的,那种‘忽视’便是他所传达的形象。
38:39 K: And also the parents are bound to neglect if they have... an image about themselves.

B: Yes.
克:同样的,父母也必定会忽视他们——要是父母持有 关于自己形象的话。

博姆:是的。
38:44 S: That's right. They must.

K: It's inevitable.
西恩博格:没错。这是必然的。

克:这是不可避免的。
38:47 S: Because they are fragmenting rather than seeing the whole. 西恩博格:因为他们是在制造分裂,而没有去看到那个整体。
38:51 B: Yes, the child will get the image... that he doesn't matter to his parents. 博姆:是的,孩子会得到这样一个形象 即他对于自己的父母来说是无关紧要的。
38:55 S: Except in that fragment. 西恩博格:除了在那个碎片中。
38:57 B: In the fragment they like and so on. 博姆:在那个碎片中,他们喜欢我,等等这些。
38:58 S: That's right. So if you are this way... I'm with you, if you are not that way... 西恩博格:没错。所以,要是你变成这样 我就认同你,要是你不变成这样的话
39:04 K: But you see, society is doing this to every human being. Church is doing it; churches, religions, politics, everything... culture around us is creating this image. 克:但是你瞧,社会正在对每一个人做着这样的事情。 教会在做着这样的事;教堂、宗教、政治,一切事物 我们周围的文化,都在制造着形象。
39:22 S: That's right. 西恩博格:没错。
39:24 K: And that image gets hurt, and all the rest of it. Now, the next question is... is one aware of all this... which is part of our consciousness? The content of consciousness makes up consciousness. Right? That's clear. 克:于是那个形象受到了伤害,等等这些。 现在,下一个问题就是 我们是否觉察到了这一切 这一切就是我们意识的一部分。 意识的内容组成了意识。 对吗?这是清楚明白的。
39:50 S: Right. 西恩博格:对。
39:52 K: So, one of the contents is the image-making, or may be... the major machinery that's operating... the major dynamo, the major movement. Being hurt, which every human being is... Can that hurt be healed, and never be hurt again? Can a human mind which has accepted the image... which creates the image, put away the image completely... and never be hurt. And therefore... in consciousness, a great part of it... is empty... it has no content. I wonder... 克:所以,其中一项内容就是形象的制造,或者说它也许是 最主要的运行机制 最主要的发电机,最主要的运动。 在受到伤害以后——每一个人都会受到伤害 那种伤害能够被治愈,从而永远不会再受伤吗? 那个已经接受了形象 创造了形象的人类头脑,它能够彻底扔掉那个形象 并且永远不再受伤吗?这样的话 绝大部分的意识 就会被清空了 意识不再包含那些内容。我不知道
41:11 S: Can it? I really don't know the answer to that. I know the answer only that I believe you could... 西恩博格:它可以吗? 我真的不知道它的答案。 我知道的答案只是:我相信你可以
41:33 K: Who is the image-maker? What is the machinery or the process... that's making images? I may get rid of one image... and take on another, I'm a Catholic... I'm a Protestant, I'm a Hindu... I'm a Zen monk, I'm this, I'm that. You follow? They are all images. 克:谁是那个形象的制造者? 是什么样的机制或者说过程 在制造着形象?我也许会摆脱掉一个形象 然后又捡起另一个形象,我是一个天主教徒 我是一个新教徒,我是一个印度教徒 我是一个禅宗和尚,我是这个或者那个。 你跟上了吗?这些都是形象。
41:53 S: Right. Who is the image-maker? 西恩博格:是的。 谁才是形象的制造者呢?
42:07 K: After all, if there is an image of that kind... how can you have love in all this? 克:毕竟,要是存在那样子的一个形象 在所有这些形象中,你又怎么能拥有爱呢?
42:16 S: We don't have an abundance of it. 西恩博格:我们还没有充足的爱。
42:18 K: We don't have it! 克:我们压根儿就没有爱!
42:20 S: That's right. We have got a lot of images. That's why I say, I don't know. I know about image-making. 西恩博格:是的。 我们已经有了很多的形象。这就是为什么我会说我不知道。 我只知道那种形象的制造。
42:31 K: It's terrible, sir. - You follow? 克:这是很可怕的事,先生。——你明白吗?
42:34 S: Right. I know about image-making and I see it. Even as you are talking about it... I can see it there and the feeling is one of... it's like a map, you know where you are at... because if I don't make this image I will make another. 西恩博格:是的。我知道那种形象的制造,我看到了它。 即使当你在谈论它的时候 我可以看到它就在那里,那种感觉就好像是 一张地图,你知道你在哪里 因为如果我不制造这个形象的话,我就会制造另一个形象。
42:50 K: Of course. 克:当然了。
42:51 S: If you don't make this one you will make another. 西恩博格:要是你不制造这个形象,你就会制造出另一个形象。
42:54 K: We are saying, is it possible to stop the machinery... that is producing the images? And what is the machinery? Is it wanting to be somebody? 克:我们在问:是否可能去停止那种 制造出形象的机制? 那种机制是什么? 它是不是想要成为某种人?
43:16 S: Yes. It's wanting to be somebody... it's wanting to know where... wanting to have, to reduce, somehow or other... it seems to be wanting to handle the feeling... that if I don't have it I don't know where I'm at. 西恩博格:是的。它就是想要成为某种人 它就是想要知道哪里是 想要去拥有,去减少,设法去 它似乎是想要去带来那种感受 即如果我不拥有它的话,我就不知道自己在哪里了。
43:31 K: Being at a loss?

S: Yes.
克:会变得茫然不知所措?

西恩博格:是的。
43:35 K: You see how clever. You see, being at… You follow? The feeling that you are at a loss, not to rely on anything... not to have any support, breeds more disorder. 克:你看,这是多么的聪明。你瞧,变得……你明白了吗? 你感到了茫然不知所措,你不能再依赖任何事物 不再有任何的支持,而这滋生了更多的混乱。
43:58 S: Right. 西恩博格:对。
44:00 B: That's one of the images... that was communicated to it as a child... to say that if you don't have an image of yourself... you don't know what to do at all. You don't know what your parents... are going to do if you start acting... without an image. (Laughs) You may do something... and they will just simply be horrified. 博姆:而这也是被传达的形象之一 因为孩子会觉得说 要是我没有了关于自己的形象 那我就根本不知道该怎么做了。 你不知道你的父母 将会对你做些什么——要是你开始 不带形象地去行动的话。(笑)你也许会做一些事情 而父母将只会对此感到无比震惊。
44:18 S: That's right. 西恩博格:没错。
44:22 K: The image is the product of thought. Right? 克:形象就是思想的产物。对吗?
44:27 S: It's organised. 西恩博格:形象是思想组织起来的。
44:29 K: Yes, a product of thought. It may go through various forms of pressures... and all the rest of it, a great deal of conveyor belt... and at the end produces an image. 克:是的,它是思想的产物。 它也许会经历各种形式的压力 等等这些东西,在传送带上经过了大量的加工 最终产生出了一个形象。
44:43 S: Right. No question. I agree with you there. It's definitely... the product of thought and that thought seems to be like... the immediate action in knowing where you are at; or in trying to know where you are at. It's like there is a space. 西恩博格:对。这是毫无疑问的。 在这一点上,我同意你的看法。它无疑就是 思想的产物,而那种思想似乎像是 一种立即的行动,他知道你位于何处; 或者试图去知晓你的位置。 那就像是存在着一个空间。
45:04 K: So, can the machinery stop? 克:所以,那种机制能够停止吗?
45:11 K: Can thought which produces these images... which destroys all relationship... and therefore no love - ah, not verbally, actually no love! Don't say ' Yes, I love my...' - That's not... When a man who has an image about himself... says 'I love my husband', or wife, or my children... it's just sentiment, romanticism... fanciful emotionalism. 克:制造出了这些形象的思想能停止吗? 正是形象摧毁了所有的关系 由此便没有了爱——啊,这不是嘴上说说的,而是确实没有爱! 不要说什么‘是的,我爱我的……’——那并不是 如果一个人有着一个关于他自己的形象 那么说‘我爱我的丈夫’,爱我的妻子,或者爱我的孩子 那只是一种多愁善感和浪漫主义 一种充满幻想的泛滥的情感。
45:40 S: Right. 西恩博格:没错。
45:44 K: So, as it is now there is no love in the world. There is no sense of real caring for somebody. 克:所以,就目前的状况来看,这个世界并没有爱。 我们并没有那种真正关爱某人的感觉。
45:58 S: That's true. People don't. 西恩博格:说的对。人们没有。
46:02 K: The more affluent the worse it becomes. Not that the poor have this. I don't mean that. Poor people haven't got this either. They are after filling their stomachs... and clothes and work, work, work. 克:人们越是富裕,情况就变得越糟糕。 但并不是说穷人就拥有爱。 我没有这个意思。穷人也一样没有爱。 他们在忙着去解决自己的 温饱问题,不停地工作着。
46:20 B: Still they have got lots of images. 博姆:他们也有着很多的形象。
46:22 K: Of course. I said... both the rich and the poor have these images... including Brezhnev and Sakharov, or whoever it is. And these are the people who are correcting the world. Right? Who say 'well, this must...' you follow? They are the ordering of the universe. (Laughs) So, I ask myself, can this image-making stop? Stop, not occasionally - stop it. Because then I don't know what love means... I don't know how to care for somebody. And I think that's what is happening in the world... because children are really lost souls, lost human beings. I have met so many, hundreds of them now, all over the world. They are really a lost generation. You understand, sir? As the older people are a lost generation. So, what is a human being to do? What is the right action in relationship? Can there be right action in relationship... as long as you have an image?

S: No.
克:当然了。我想说 不管是富人还是穷人,都有着那些形象 包括勃列日涅夫、萨哈罗夫,或者无论是谁。 而这些人正在纠正着这个世界。对吗? 他们说‘听着,必须要这样……’你跟上了吗? 他们在号令着这个宇宙。(笑) 所以,我问自己,这种形象的制造可以停止吗? 停止,不是偶尔停止——而是停止它。 因为否则的话,我就不知道爱意味着什么 我就不知道如何去关爱别人。 而我认为这就是世界上正在发生的事情 因为孩子们确实变成了迷失的灵魂,迷失的人类。 我见过很多的孩子,遍及全世界的,无数如今这个时代的孩子。 他们的确是迷茫的一代人。你理解吗,先生? 因为年老的一代人也是迷茫的。 所以,人类要怎么做? 关系中正确的行动是什么? 关系中可能会有正确的行动吗 ——如果你还是持有一个形象的话?

西恩博格:不可能。
48:14 K: Ah! No sir, this is a tremendous thing - you follow? 克:啊!不,先生,这是一件意义重大的事情——你明白吗?
48:20 S: That's why I was wondering. It seemed to me you made a jump there. You said, all we know somehow or other... is images, and image-making, and thought. That's all we know. 西恩博格:这就是我感到疑惑的原因。 在我看来,你在这里跨了一大步。 你说,不知怎么回事,所有我们知道的 就只有形象,形象的制造和思想。 这就是所有我们知道的东西。
48:36 K: But we've never said 'can it stop'. 克:但是我们却从来不问‘它能否停止’。
48:40 S: We've never said 'can it stop', that's right. 西恩博格:我们从来没有问过‘它是否可以停止’,没错。
48:42 K: We've never said, for god's sake, if it doesn't stop... we are going to destroy each other. 克:我们从来不说,看在上帝的份上,要是它不停止的话 我们就会自相残杀。
48:48 B: You could say that now the notion that it might stop... is something more that we know, that we didn't know before. In other words... 博姆:你可以说,现在,这种它或许会停止的想法 是某种超出了我们所知领域的东西,是我们未曾知晓过的东西。 换句话说
48:55 K: It becomes another piece of knowledge. (Laughs) 克:然后它也变成了一种知识。(笑)
48:58 B: But I was trying to say that when you say 'all we know'... it's the same thing as before. I feel that a block comes in. 博姆:然而我想要表达的是,你又说了‘所有我们知道的’ 这又重蹈覆辙了。我觉得这造成了一种障碍。
49:04 S: You are back to that. Right. 西恩博格:你又回到这一点上了。说的没错。
49:06 B: In other words, it's not much use to say, 'all we know'. 博姆:换句话说,‘所有我们知道的东西’这种说法并没有什么太大用处。
49:11 S: Because he said, can it stop - that's more than... 西恩博格:因为他在问:它是否可以停止?——这超出了
49:13 B: If you say 'that's all we know' then it can never stop. 博姆:如果你说‘这就是所有我们所知道的’,那么它就永远不可能停止了。
49:17 K: He's objecting to your use of 'all'. (Laughs) 克:他是在反对你使用‘所有’这个词。(笑)
49:21 S: I'm grateful for that. 西恩博格:我对此表示感谢。
49:22 B: That's what's one of the factors blocking it. 博姆:这就是阻碍我们去停止它的因素之一。
49:26 S: Well, if we come down to it... what do we do with that question, 'can it stop?' There we are, we have this question 'can it stop'. 西恩博格:好吧,让我们脚踏实地一点吧 我们要如何去处理这个问题——即‘它是否可以停止?’ 瞧,我们有了这个问题:‘它能否停止?’。
49:36 K: I put that question to you. Do you listen to it? 克:我向你提出了这个问题。你在聆听它吗?
49:40 S: I listen. Right.

K: Ah, do you listen?
西恩博格:我在听。是的。

克:啊,你在聆听?
49:43 S: It stops for a... 西恩博格:它会停止片刻
49:45 K: No, no. I'm not interested whether it stops. Do you listen to a statement 'can it stop'? We now examined, analysed, or examined... this whole process of image-making... the result of it... the misery, the confusion, the appalling things... that are going on, the Arab has his image... the Jew, the Hindu, the Muslim... the Christian, the non - you follow? - the communist. There's this tremendous division of images... symbols, all the rest of it. If that doesn't stop... you are going to have such a chaotic world. I see this, not as an abstraction... as an actuality as that flower. 克:不,不。我对它是否停止并不感兴趣。 你是否在聆听这个陈述即‘它是否能够停止’? 我们现在正在检视,分析或者检查 形象制造的整个过程 它带来的结果 那些痛苦、混乱,和骇人之事 正在发生着,阿拉伯人有着他的形象 犹太人、印度教、穆斯林 基督教徒、无神论者——你跟上了吗?——那些共产主义者。 有着这种巨大的分裂,形象之间的分裂 符号之间的分类,等等。 要是这种分裂不停止的话 你们就会有一个混乱不堪的世界。 我看到了这一点,不是作为一种抽象理念 而是作为一个事实,就像这朵花一样。
50:38 K: And I feel, as a human being, what am I to do? Because I, personally... I have no image about this. I really mean, I have no image about myself. a conclusion, a concept, an ideal, all these are images. I have none! And I say to myself 'what can I do'. When everybody around me... is building images, and so destroying this lovely earth... where we are meant to live happily... in human relationship, and look at the heavens... and be happy about it. So, what is the right action for a man... who has an image? Or there is no right action? 克:而作为人类的一员,我的感觉就是:我该怎么做呢? 因为我,就我个人而言 我并没有这些形象。 我是很认真说这话的,我并没有关于自己的形象。 关于自己的某个结论、某个概念、某个理想,所有这些都是形象。 我都没有! 然后我对自己说‘我能够做什么呢?’。 我周围的每一个人 都在建立形象,由此而摧毁了这个可爱的地球 这个本应该是人与人之间快乐相处而生活的地方 我们本应该在这里仰望天空 然后满怀喜悦。 所以,对于那个持有形象的人来说,什么才是正确的行动? 或者说,并不存在什么正确的行动?
51:41 S: Let me turn it back. What happens with you when I say to you 'can it stop'? 西恩博格:我想反过来问一下。 如果我问你‘它是否可能停止’的话,你会作何反应?
51:48 K: I say, of course. It's very simple to me. Of course it can stop. You don't ask me the next question... How do you do it? How does it come about? 克:我会说:它当然可以停止。 对我来说,答案很简单。它当然可以停止了。 你是不是要问我下一个问题 你是如何做到它的?这种停止是如何产生的?
52:08 S: No, I want to just listen for a minute... when you say 'Yes, of course'. OK. Now, how do you think it can? 西恩博格:不,我只是想要倾听片刻 当你说‘是的,当然了’的时候。 好吧。现在我要问了:为何你认为它可以停止?
52:20 K: Five minutes, we have only five minutes. 克:五分钟,我们只剩下五分钟了。
52:22 S: OK. Well, let's just touch... How can it stop? I have no… Let me put it to you straight. Let's see if I can get it straight. I have absolutely no evidence that it can. No experience that it can. 西恩博格:好吧。呃,我们直接说重点……它要如何才能停止? 我没有 让我直截了当地说吧。 让我想想,看看我是否可以直截了当地把它表达出来。 我完全找不到任何它可以停止的证据。 也没有经历过它的停止。
52:41 K: I don't want evidence. 克:我不想要什么证据。
52:43 S: You don't want any evidence. 西恩博格:你并不想要任何证据。
52:44 K: I don't want somebody's explanation. 克:我并不想听别人的解释。
52:47 S: Or experience. 西恩博格:或者别人的经验。
52:48 K: Because they are based on images. 克:因为它们都是建立在形象之上的。
52:51 S: Right. 西恩博格:没错。
52:52 K: Future image, or past image, or living image. So, I say 'can it stop'. I say it can, definitely. It's not just a verbal statement to amuse you. To me this is tremendously important. 克:未来的形象,过去的形象,或者现有的形象。 所以我问‘它能够停止吗?’。 我说它可以停止,这是确定无疑的。 这并不是嘴上说说,娱乐你一下的东西。 对我来说,这一点是无比重要的。
53:15 S: I think we agree... that it's tremendously important, but how? 西恩博格:我相信我们都同意说 它是极其重要的,但是它要如何才能停止呢?
53:20 K: Not 'how'. Then you enter into the question... of systems, mechanical process... which is part of our image-making. If I tell you how, then you say... 'Tell me the system, the method, the practice... I'll do it every day... and I'll get the new image'. 克:不要问‘如何’。那样的话,你又陷入了体系的问题中 陷入了那种机械化的过程中 而它们正是我们形象制造的一部分。 要是我告诉你‘它如何停止’,那么你就会说 ‘请告诉我一个体系,一个方法,某种练习 我可以每天去练习它 然后我便可以获得新的形象了’。
53:40 S: Yes. 西恩博格:是的。
53:44 K: Now, I see the fact that's going on in the world. 克:现在,我看到了这个事实,即这样的事情正在全世界发生着。
53:48 S: I have got it. I'm with you, yes. 西恩博格:我明白它了。我同意你的说法,是这样的。
53:51 K: Fact. Not my reactions to it... not my romantic, fanciful theories about... what it should not be. It is a fact... that as long as there are images... there's not going to be peace in the world... no love in the world... whether the Christ image, or the Buddha image or the Muslim. there won't be peace in the world. I see it as a fact. I remain with that fact. That's all - finished. As this morning we said... if one remains with the fact there is a transformation. Which is, not to let the… not... thought begins to interfere with the fact. 克:是事实。而不是我对此的反应 也不是我浪漫多情,幻想出来的理论 认为它不应该怎样怎样。这是一个事实 那就是只要还是存在着这些形象 这个世界就不会有和平 不会有爱 不管那是什么样的形象:基督的形象、佛陀的形象,或者穆斯林的形象。 那时将不会有世界的和平。 我将它视为一个事实。 我与这个事实待在一起。 仅此而已,到此结束。 因为今天早上的时候,我们曾说过 如果一个人与事实同在的话,就会有一种转变发生。 那就是,不要让……不是 因为思想会开始去干涉那个事实。
55:24 B: The same as the morning, to say more images come in. 博姆:这和早上说的是一样的,早上我们说,会有更多的形象进入。
55:27 K: More images come in. So, our consciousness is filled with these images. 克:会有更多的形象介入进来。 所以,我们的意识中充斥着这些形象。
55:39 S: Yes, that's true. 西恩博格:是的,没错。
55:40 K: I'm a Hindu, Brahmin, I'm my tradition, I'm better than anybody else. I'm the chosen people, I'm the Aryan - you follow? I'm the only Englishman... all that is crowding my consciousness. 克:我是一个印度人,我是婆罗门,我有着我的传统, 我要比任何人都优秀。 我就是上帝的选民,我是雅利安人——你跟上了吗? 只有我是英国人 所有这些东西挤满了我的意识。
56:00 B: When you say... to remain with the fact, one of the images that may come in is... 'that's impossible, that can never be done'. 博姆:当你说 与事实同在的时候,其中的一个形象也许就会介入进来说 ‘这是不可能的,它是永远无法做到的事’。
56:07 K: Yes, that is another image. 克:是的,这是另外一个形象。
56:09 B: In other words, if the mind could stay with that fact... with no comment whatsoever. 博姆:换句话说,要是头脑可以与事实共处 而不作任何评论的话
56:16 S: Well, the thing that... comes through to me when you say that... is that when you say, 'remain with the fact'... you are really calling for an action right there. To really remain with it is that the action of perception is there. 西恩博格:嗯,当你说这话的时候,我心中 产生的想法就是 当你说,‘与事实同在’ 你其实是在这里要求了一种行动。 真正地与事实同在,就是要在这里有那种觉察的行动。
56:37 K: Sir, you don't... Why do you make it so much... It's round you! You are involved in it. 克:先生,你不必……为什么你要把它变得如此的 它就在你身边! 你是卷入其中的。
56:44 S: But that's different from remaining with it. 西恩博格:但是这和‘与它同在’是不一样的。
56:46 K: Remain with that!

S: To really see it.
克:去和它待在一起!

西恩博格:去真正看到它。
56:49 K: Yes, that's all. 克:是的,就是这样。
56:53 S: You know how that feels? It feels like something... carries forward... because we are always running away. 西恩博格:你知道这是怎样一种感觉吗?它让人感觉像是某个东西 被推到了前面 因为我们总是在逃避。
57:06 K: So, our consciousness is this image... conclusions, ideas, all that. 克:所以,我们的意识就是这个形象 它就是那些结论、那些概念等等这些东西。
57:13 S: Always running away. 西恩博格:而我们却总是在逃离。
57:15 K: Filling, filling, and that's the essence of the image. If there is no image-making then what is consciousness? That's quite a different thing. 克:我们在不停地填充那个意识,而这就是形象的实质。 要是不存在形象的制造,意识又是什么呢? 它会变得截然不同。
57:36 B: You think we can discuss that next time? 博姆:你觉得我们是否可以下次再来讨论它?