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BR76CTM6 - 任何形式的意象都会妨碍关系之美
与博姆和西恩博格的第六次探讨
英国，布洛克伍德
1976年5月20日



0:07 K: I would like to ask you, Dr. Bohm. As you are such a well-known... physicist and scientist... practically every schoolboy knows about you... throughout the world... I would like to ask... after all these 4 or 5 dialogues that we've had... What will change man? What will bring about a radical transformation... in the total consciousness of human beings? 克：博姆博士，我想要问你一些东西。 因为你是一个闻名遐迩的 物理学家和科学家 几乎每一个学生都知道你 全世界的每一个学生 我想要问一下 在我们进行了这四五次对话以后 我想问：什么东西可以改变人类？ 什么东西可以彻底转变 人类的整个意识？
0:55 B: I don't know that the scientific background is going to be... very relevant to that question. 博姆：我并不知道原来科学家的背景 会这个问题密切相关。
1:02 K: Would be?

B: I said, it's not clear that... the scientific background must be relevant to that question. 		克：什么？

博姆：我说，我并不清楚 是否科学家的背景一定会与这个问题相关。
1:07 K: No, probably not, but... after we've talked considerably at length... not only now but in the previous years... what is the energy... I'm using 'energy' not in any... scientific sense, just ordinary sense... the vitality, the energy, the drive... which is seems to be lacking? After all, if I listen to you as a viewer, to the 3 of us... I would say 'Yes, it's all very well for these philosophers... or these scientists, experts, but it's outside my field. It's too far away. Bring it nearer. Bring it much closer so that I can deal with my life'. 克：不相关，也许是不相关的，但是 在我们非常详细地讨论过后 不只是这几天，也包括过去很多年中的讨论 什么样的能量 我所使用的‘能量’这个词并不是 科学意义上，只是它平常的意思 活力、精力、动力 什么能量似乎是我们所缺乏的？ 毕竟，要是我作为一个观众聆听你们，聆听我们三个人的对话 我会说‘是的，这些哲学家 这些科学家或者专家们的谈话很好，但是它超出了我的认知领域。 它有点遥不可及。让它更贴近一点。 更加贴近我，这样我就可以去处理我的生活了’。
2:02 B: I think at the end of the last discussion we were touching... on one point of that nature... because we were discussing images. 博姆：我想在上一次讨论的最后，我们谈到了一点 它就触及到了这个问题的本质 因为我们讨论了形象。
2:12 K: Images, yes. 克：形象，是的。
2:14 B: And the self-image. And... questioning whether we've to have images at all. 博姆：也讨论了自我形象。并且 质疑了是否我们一定需要形象。
2:22 K: Of course, we went into that. But you see, I want, as a viewer... totally outside, listening to you... for the first time, the three of you... I say 'Look, how does it touch my life? It's all so vague... and uncertain and... needs a great deal of thinking, which I'm unwilling to do'. You follow? 'So, please tell me in a few words, or at length... what am I to do with my life. Where am I to touch it? Where am I to break it down? From where am I to look at it? I've hardly any time... I go to the office; I go to the factory... I've got so many things to do, children, wife nagging, poverty'. The whole structure of misery, and you sit there, you three... and talk about something which 'c'est ne me touche pas'... that doesn't touch me in the least'. So, could we bring it down... to brass tacks as it were, where I can grapple with it... as an ordinary human being? 克：当然了，我们探究了这点。 但是你瞧，我想要的是，作为一个观众 一个彻底的局外人，我是第一次聆听你们 第一次聆听你们三人的对话 我问‘那么，这些东西要如何触及影响我的生活呢？ 它们是如此的模糊不清 和不确定 它需要大量的思考，而我不愿意去进行这些思考’。 你跟上了吗？‘所以，请简明扼要地，或者完整详细地告诉我 我要如何去过我的生活？ 我要在哪里才能触及到这些东西呢？ 我要从哪里去突破它呢？我要从什么角度去观察它呢？ 我没有多少时间 我要去办公室，我要去工厂上班 我要去对付那么多的东西：孩子、唠叨的妻子、贫穷问题’。 所有的那些痛苦不幸，而你们三个人坐在这里 谈论一些‘与我无关（法语）’的东西 它和我没有一点关系。 所以，我们能不能把它降低一点 降低为一些基本的事实，这样我就可以去努力处理它了 作为一个普通人，我也可以去处理它。
4:02 B: Could we consider the problems arising in daily relationship... as the starting point?

K: That's the essence, isn't it? I was going to begin with that. My relationship with human beings... is in the office, in the factory, on a golf course. 		博姆：我们能否来考虑一下日常生活关系中所出现的那些问题 把它作为一个起始点？

克：它是极其重要的，不是吗？ 我准备从它开始。 那就是我和他人的关系 这种关系就在办公室里，在工厂里，在高尔夫球场上。
4:34 B: Or at home. 博姆：或者在家里。
4:36 K: Or at home. And at home it's pretty... you know, a routine, sex, children... if I've children, if I want children... and the constant battle, battle, battle all my life. Insulted, wounded, hurt... everything is going on in me and around me. 克：或者在家里。而在家里的时候，这种关系是相当 你知道的，一种例行公事，做爱，养小孩 ——要是我有小孩，或者我想要小孩的话 我的一生就是不断地斗争、斗争再斗争。 那些侮辱、伤害和痛苦 这一切都在我的内心和周围发生着。
5:02 B: Yes, there is continual disappointment. 博姆：是的，存在着持续不断的挫折沮丧。
5:04 K: Continual disappointment, continual hope... desire to be more successful, more money... more, more, more of everything. Now... How am I to alter, change... my relationship? What is the... the source of my relationship? If we could tackle that a little bit this morning... and go on to what we were discussing... which is really very important, which is not to have an image at all. 克：不断地失望，不断地去希望 渴望变得更加成功，更有钱 渴望一切事物都变得更多、更多、更多。 现在 我要如何去转变，去改变 我的关系？ 什么才是 我关系的源头？ 我想今天早上，我们可以稍微来探讨一下这个问题 然后再继续探讨我们昨天所讨论的 那个非常重要的东西， 即完全不要有任何形象。
5:49 B: Yes. But it seems that as we were discussing yesterday... we tend to be related almost always through the image. 博姆：是的。但是似乎就如我们昨天所讨论的 我们几乎总是倾向于通过形象来产生关系。
5:54 K: Through the image, that's right. 克：通过形象，没错。
5:56 B: Say, I've an image of myself and of you... as you should be in relation to me. And then that gets disappointed and hurt and so on. 博姆：比如说，我有着一个关于自己的形象，以及一个关于你的形象 那就是你应该和我关系亲密。 然后那种形象会遭遇挫折和伤害，等等。
6:06 K: But how am I to change that image? How am I to break it down? I know after you have talked to me as an ordinary human being... I see very well I've got an image... and it has been put together... constructed through generations. And I've got it. I am fairly intelligent... I'm fairly aware of myself and I see I've got it. How am I to break it down? 克：然而，我要如何去改变那个形象呢？ 我要如何去打破那个形象呢？ 当你作为一个普通人与我交谈以后，我明白了 我很清楚地看到了自己持有着一个形象 并且这个形象是 经历了世世代代而被拼凑和构筑起来的。 我已经有了这个形象。我是一个非常聪明的人 我很好地觉察了我自己，然后我发现我有着这个形象。 那么我要如何去打破它呢？
6:39 B: The point, as I see it, is that... I've got to be aware of that image... to watch it as it moves. 博姆：在我看来，重点在于 我必须要觉察到这个形象 并且观察它的活动。
6:47 K: So, am I to watch it… - I'm taking the opposite... Am I to watch it in the office?

B: Yes. 		克：那么，我会去观察它吗？——我从反面去问一下它 我会在办公室里去观察它吗？

博姆：是的。
6:59 K: In the factory, at home, at the golf club... because in all these areas are my relationships. 克：在工厂里，在家中，在高尔夫俱乐部观察它 因为我的关系存在于所有这些地方。
7:06 B: Yes. I would say, I've to watch it on all those places... and also when I'm not there. 博姆：是的。我想说，我会在所有这些地方去观察它 并且当我不在那里时，我也会继续我的观察。
7:12 K: When I'm not there. So, I've to watch it all the time, in fact. 克：不在那里时也会观察它。所以，事实上，我需要一直观察它。
7:16 B: Yes. 博姆：是的。
7:17 K: Now, am I capable of it? Have I got... the energy, because my wife wants sex... I don't want it, or I enjoy sex, I go through all kinds of miseries... and at the end of the day I've hardly… I crawl into bed. And you say I must have energy. So, I must realise... relationship is the greatest importance. 克：那么，我是否有能力这样去做？我有没有 那种能量，因为我的妻子想要做爱 但我并不想做，或者说我很喜欢做爱， 我经过了各种痛苦辛劳 然后一天下来，我已经没有……我躺倒就睡了。 而你说，我必须要有能量。因此，我必须要意识到 关系是最重要的东西。
7:44 B: Yes. 博姆：对。
7:45 K: Therefore I'm willing to give up certain wastage of energies. 克：因此，我愿意放弃某些浪费能量的事情。
7:52 B: What kind of wastage? 博姆：你指的浪费是哪一种？
7:57 K: Drink. Smoke, useless chatter. Endless crawling from pub to pub. 克：喝酒。 抽烟，无意义的闲聊。 永无止境地泡酒吧。
8:06 B: That would be the beginning anyway. 博姆：无论如何，这也算是一个开始了。
8:08 K: That would be the beginning. But you see, I want all those plus more. You follow? 克：这将会是一个开始。 但是你瞧，我却想要这些东西变得更多。你明白了吗？
8:17 B: But if I can see that everything depends on this... 博姆：然而要是我可以看到，一切事物都取决于它的话
8:20 K: Of course. 克：当然了。
8:21 B: ...then I won't go to the pub, if I see that that interferes. 博姆：……那么我就不会再去酒吧了，如果我看到去酒吧会造成一种妨碍的话。
8:25 K: So, as an ordinary human being, I must realise... the greatest importance is to have right relationship. 克：所以，作为一个普通人，我必须要意识到 最重要的就是要去拥有正确的关系。
8:34 B: Yes. It would be good if we could say... what happens when we don't have it. 博姆：是的。 要是我们可以说说 如果我们没有正确的关系，会发生什么的话，这将会带来很大帮助。
8:41 K: Oh, when I don't have it, of course. 克：哦，如果我没有它的话，当然了。
8:44 B: Then everything goes to pieces. 博姆：那时一切事物都会崩溃瓦解。
8:45 K: Everything goes to pieces; Not only everything goes to pieces... I create such havoc around me. So, can I... by putting aside smoke, drink, pubs... and the endless chatter about... this or that, will I gather that energy? 克：一切事物都会崩溃； 不仅一切事物会崩溃 我还会在自己周围制造出一场浩劫。 所以，我能否 通过舍弃吸烟、喝酒、泡酒吧 以及无休止的闲聊 从而聚集起那种能量？
9:12 B: Well, that's the beginning. 博姆：嗯，这是一个开始。
9:14 K: I'm asking, will I gather that energy which will help me... to face the picture which I have, the image which I have? 克：我在问的是，我能否聚集起能量——这种能量可以帮助我 去面对我所持有的意象，我所拥有的形象。
9:25 B: Yes, it means going also ambition... and many other things. 博姆：是的，它同样意味着野心的退去 以及很多其他事情。
9:30 K: Of course. You see, I begin by obvious things... like smoke, drink, pub and all the rest. 克：当然了。请注意，我从显而易见的事情开始 比如吸烟、喝酒、泡酒吧等等这些。
9:36 S: Let me just stop you here. Suppose my image is that you're going to do it for me... and my real image is that I can't do it for myself. 西恩博格：请允许我在这里打断一下你。 假如我的形象是‘你将会替我去做这件事’ 我真正的形象其实是‘我自己无法做到它’。
9:52 K: Oh, that's one of our favourite conditionings... that I can't do it myself... therefore I must go to somebody to help me. 克：哦，这是我们最喜爱的制约之一 即‘我自己无法做到它’ 因此我必须要去找别人来帮助我。
10:03 S: Or I go to the pub, because I see I can't do it for myself... so I create the condition... several things come from my going to the pub... 1 is, I'm in despair because... I can't do it for myself so I'm going to... obliterate myself through drink... so I no longer feel this pain. 西恩博格：或者我会去酒吧，因为我发现我自己无法做到它 于是我便创造出了那个制约 对于我去酒吧这件事，有几点需要提一下 第一点就是，我很绝望，因为 我自己无法去做那件事，于是我便 通过喝酒来忘却自己 由此我便不会感觉到这种痛苦了。
10:23 B: At least for the moment. 博姆：至少可以暂时不感到痛苦。
10:24 S: Right. And also 2... I'm proving to myself that my image that... I can't do it for myself is right. After all, look at me, I'm on the ground, in the gutter! You're going to deny that? 2nd of all... by treating myself in such a way... I'm going to prove to you that I can't do it myself. May be I'll get you to do it for me. 西恩博格：是的。第二点 我向自己证实了这一点，即对于我的形象 我自己是无法做到那件事的，这是没错的。 毕竟，看看我的样子，我仍旧困在原地，醉倒在水沟里！ 你难道要否认这一点吗？其次 通过以这种方式对待我自己 我便能向你证明，那就是我自己无法做到它。 也许我会让你来替我做这件事。
10:44 K: I think sir, we don't realise, any of us... the utter and absolute importance... of right relationship. I don't think we realise it. 克：先生，我认为，我们并没有……我们中任何人都没有意识到 那个彻底和绝对重要的 东西就是正确的关系。 我觉得我们并没有意识到这点。
10:59 S: I agree with you, we don't. 西恩博格：我同意你的看法，我们并没有意识到它。
11:00 K: With my wife, with my neighbour, in the office... wherever I am... I don't think we realise - with nature also... a relationship which is easy... quiet, full, rich, happy... the beauty of it, the harmony of it. We don't realise that. Now, can we tell the ordinary viewer, the listener... the great importance of that? 克：和我妻子的关系，和我邻居的关系，在办公室里 以及无论我在什么地方 我想我们并没有明白有这么一种关系——也没有明白这种关系的本质—— 它是轻松的 平静的、充实的、丰富的、快乐的 它的美丽，它的和谐。 我们并没有认识到它。 那么，我们能否告诉一个普通的观众，告诉那个听众 它的巨大的重要性。
11:31 S: Let's try. How can we communicate to somebody the value... of a right relationship? You are my wife. You are whining, you are nagging me. Right? You think that I should be doing... something for you when I'm tired... and don't feel like doing anything for you. 西恩博格：让我们来试试吧。 我们要如何才能向某人传达出 正确关系的价值？你是我的妻子。 你在抱怨，你朝我唠叨个不停。对吗？ 你认为我应该 为你做一些事情，然而我很累了 我不想再为你做任何事情。
11:49 K: I know. Go to a party. 克：我明白。拉你去参加派对。
11:50 S: Right. 'Let's go to the party... you never take me out'. 西恩博格：是的。让我们一起去那个派对吧 你从来不带我出去’。
11:55 K: Yes. (Laughs) 克：是的。（笑）
11:58 S: Right? 'You never take me anywhere'. 西恩博格：是吧？‘你从来不带我去任何地方’。
12:00 B: Yes, making images. 博姆：是的，这就是在制造形象了。
12:02 K: Yes, so, how are you... who realise the importance of relationship... to deal with me? How are you to deal? No, I mean, we've got this problem in life! 克：是的，那么，你要如何 你已经意识到了关系的重要性 那么你要怎么来向我解释它呢？ 你要怎么做？ 不，我的意思是，这就是我们生活中的问题！
12:20 B: I think it should be very clear that nobody can do it for me. Whatever somebody else does, it won't reflect my relationship. 博姆：我认为我们应该很清楚一点，那就是没有人可以为我做这件事。 无论其他人做了什么，它都不会反映在我的关系中。
12:29 S: How are you going to make that clear to somebody? 西恩博格：那么你要如何向别人解释清楚这些呢？
12:32 B: But isn't it obvious? 博姆：可这不是显而易见的吗？
12:33 S: It's not obvious. I feel very strongly - I'm the viewer... I feel very strongly that you ought to be doing it for me. My mother never did it for me, somebody has got to do it for me. 西恩博格：它并不是那么显而易见。我强烈地感觉到——我是一个观众 我强烈地感觉到你应该为我做这件事。 我的母亲从来没有为我做这件事，所以必须要有人来为我做这件事。
12:43 B: But, isn't it obvious that it can't be done? I'm saying that that's just a delusion because... whatever you do, I will be... in the same relationship as before. Suppose you live a perfect life. I can't imitate it so I'll just go on as before, won't I? So, I've to do something myself. Isn't that clear? 博姆：但是很显然，它是无法实现的，难道不是吗？ 我想说它只不过是一个错觉，因为 无论你做了什么，我还是处于 和以前一样的那种关系中。 假设你过着一种完美无缺的生活。 但我是无法去仿效它的，所以我只会继续我的老样子，难道不是吗？ 所以，我必须自食其力。这难道不是很清楚的事吗？
13:06 S: But I don't feel able to do anything myself. 西恩博格：但是我并不觉得自己有能力去做任何事情。
13:09 B: But then can you see that if you don't do anything yourself... it's inevitable that it must go on. Any idea that it will ever get better is a delusion. 博姆：那么，你能否看到，要是你不自食其力的话 它就是不可避免的，它必定会这样继续下去。 任何它可能会变得更好的想法都是一种幻想。
13:18 S: Can we say that right relationship begins... with the realisation that I have to do something for myself? 西恩博格：我们是否可以说，正确的关系始于 意识到我必须自食其力？
13:25 K: And the utter importance of it. 克：并且意识到正确关系的巨大重要性。
13:28 S: Right. The utter importance. The responsibility I have for myself. 西恩博格：对。巨大的重要性。 我自己所肩负的责任。
13:33 K: Because you are the world.

S: Right. 		克：因为你就是这个世界。

西恩博格：没错。
13:35 K: And the world is you. You can't shirk that. 克：这个世界就是你。你是无法推卸逃避这一点的。
13:40 B: Perhaps we could discuss that a bit because it may seem strange... to some of the viewers, to say 'I'm the world'. 博姆：或许我们可以稍微来讨论一下它，因为对于某些观众来说 ‘我就是世界’这种说法似乎有点奇怪。
13:46 K: But after all, all that you are thinking... you are the result of the culture... the climate, the food, the environment... the economic conditions... your grandparents, you are the result of all that. 克：但是归根结底，所有你思考的东西 你就是文化 、气候、食物、环境 经济条件 你的爷爷奶奶的产物，你就是这一切事物的结果。
13:58 S: Well, you can see that. 西恩博格：嗯，这一点是你可以看到的。
14:00 B: That's right. That's what you mean... by saying you are the world. 博姆：是的。这就是当你说 ‘你就是世界’时，所要表达的意思。
14:05 S: I think you can see that in just what I've been laying out here... about the person who feels that... he's entitled to be taken care of... by the world, the world is in fact moving in that direction... of all the pleasure and the technological... 西恩博格：我想你可以在我之前所提及的东西中看到这一点 我提到了人们会觉得 他有权享受这个世界的照顾 而这个世界事实上就是在朝着这个方向运动着 即所有的那些快感和技术上的事物
14:17 K: No sir. This is a simple fact. You go to India... you see the same suffering, the same anxiety... and you come to Europe, America... in essence, it is the same. 克：不，先生。这是一个简单的事实。如果你去印度 你会看到同样的痛苦、同样的焦虑 你去欧洲，去美国 从本质上来说，它们都是一样的。
14:29 B: Each person has the same basic... structure of suffering and confusion... and deception and so on... Therefore if I say 'I am the world'... I mean that there is a universal structure... and it's part of me and I'm part of that. 博姆：每一个人都有着同样的基础结构 那种产生痛苦、困惑 欺骗等等事物的基础结构。 所以，如果我说‘我就是世界’ 我的意思就是存在着一个普遍性的结构 它是我的一部分，而我也是它的一部分。
14:42 K: Part of that. So, now, let's proceed from that. The first thing you have to tell me... as an ordinary human being, living in this mad rat race... you have to tell me, 'Look, realise the utter... greatest important thing in life is relationship'. You cannot have relationship... if you have an image about yourself... or if you create a pleasurable image and stick to that. 克：是它的一部分。所以，现在，让我们从这里开始吧。 你需要告诉我的第一件事情 你是一个生活在这个疯狂的激烈竞争世界中的普通人 你告诉我，‘瞧，你要意识到 生活中最最重要的东西就是关系’。 你是无法拥有关系的 ——如果你持有一个关于自己的形象 或者制造了一个令人快乐的形象并且执著于它的话。
15:21 S: Or the image that you are entitled to, it comes before... 西恩博格：或者那个你觉得有权得到的形象，它来自于
15:25 K: Any form of image... you have about another, or about yourself... prevents the beauty of relationship. 克：任何形式的 你所持有的关于他人或者自己的形象 都阻碍了关系中的美。
15:34 S: Right. 西恩博格：没错。
15:35 B: Yes. The image that I'm secure in such and such a situation... for example, and not secure in a different situation... that prevents relationship.

K: That's right. 		博姆：是的。举个例子，我会有某个形象，认为我在某某情况下是安全的 而在另一种情况下则是不安全的 而这就妨碍了关系。

克：对。
15:47 B: Because I will say... I demand of the other person that he put me... in the situation that I think is secure. And then he may not want to. 博姆：因为我会说 我对另一个人提出要求，让他把我 放到那个我认为安全的位置。 然而他或许不愿意这样做。
15:55 S: Right. So that my relationship, if I have the image... of the pleasurable relationship... then all my actions are with reference... to this other person, that I try... to force him to move me into doing that... so that I have (a) I say to him... you should be this way because that would complete my image... (2) I have what I call claims on the other person... in other words, I expect him to act in such a way... that he acknowledges that image. 西恩博格：没错。所以在我的关系中，如果我持有着 那个令人愉快关系的形象的话 那么我所有的与那个人相关的行动 我会试图 迫使他将我推到那里面去 这样的话我就可以……第一，我可以对他说 你应该这样去做，因为这可以帮我完成我的形象 第二，我有着我所谓的对他人的‘请求’ 换句话说，我期望他以那样的方式去行动 即他认可那个形象。
16:26 B: Yes. Or I may say... I have the image of what is just and right and so on. In other words, it's not that it's personally so, but I say... that would be the right way for everybody to behave. 博姆：是的。或者我会说 我有着关于什么是正当、正确等等的形象。 换句话说，它并不仅仅是就我个人而言的，我认为 它是适用于每一个人的正确的行为方式。
16:35 S: Right. In order to complete my image. 西恩博格：没错。这是为了完成我的形象。
16:38 B: Yes. For example the wife says, 'Husbands ought to take... their wives out to parties frequently'. that's part of the image. 博姆：是的。 举个例子，妻子会说，‘丈夫就应该 经常带着他们的妻子出去参加各种派对’。 这就是一部分的形象。
16:46 S: Right. 西恩博格：对。
16:47 B: Husbands have corresponding images and therefore... then that image gets hurt. Do you see? 博姆：而丈夫们也有着类似的形象，因此 那时那个形象就会受到伤害。你们看到它了吗？
16:55 S: Right. Now... I think we have to be very specific about that each... little piece of this is with fury. 西恩博格：是的。所以 我认为我们必须非常明确一点，那就是 这个形象的每一个微小部分都是带着愤怒的。
17:06 B: With energy. 博姆：带着能量。
17:07 S: Energy and fury, necessity to... complete this image in relationship... therefore relationship gets forced into a mould. 西恩博格：带着能量与愤怒，我们需要它们来 完成关系中的形象 因此关系就被迫进入了一个模子里。
17:13 K: Yes sir, I understand all that. But you see... most of us are not serious... we want an easy life. You come along and tell me... 'Look, relationship is the greatest thing'. I say, quite right. And I carry on the old way. What I'm trying to get at is... What will make a human being... listen to this, even seriously for 2 minutes? They won't listen to you.

S: Right. 		克：是的，先生，我理解所有这些东西。但是你知道 我们大多数人并不是那么认真 我们想要一种轻松容易的生活。 而你过来然后告诉我 ‘注意，关系是最意义重大的事情’。 而我说：完全正确。 然后继续我的老样子。 我所试图去弄明白的就是 什么东西可以让一个人 去聆听这些，即使只是很认真地听上两分钟？ 因为他们不会来听你的。

西恩博格：是的。
17:56 K: If you went to one of the big... experts on psychology, or whatever it is... they won't take time to listen to you. They have got their plans... their pictures, their images - you follow? they are surrounded by all this. So, to whom are we talking to? 克：要是你去找某位 心理学领域或者无论什么领域的权威专家 他们不会花时间来听你讲。 他们有着自己的计划 自己的意象，自己的形象——你明白了吗？ 他们被所有这些东西包围着。 所以，我们要和谁去讲这些东西？
18:18 S: We are talking to ourselves. (Laughs) 西恩博格：我们只能自言自语了。（笑）
18:20 K: No, not only that. Whom are we talking to? 克：不，不能只是这样。我们要和谁讲这些东西？
18:22 B: Well, whoever is able to listen. 博姆：呃，和那个能够去聆听的人。
18:25 K: That means somebody who is somewhat serious. 克：那就意味着这个人多少还是有点认真的。
18:29 B: Yes. And I think that we even may form an image of ourselves... as not being capable of being serious, and so on. 博姆：是的。 而我觉得我们甚至会建立这样的一个自我形象 那就是自己无法做到那么认真，等等。
18:37 K: That's right. 克：没错。
18:39 B: In other words, that it's too hard. 博姆：换句话说，‘认真’实在太困难了。
18:40 K: Too hard, yes. 克：太难了，是的。
18:42 B: That's an image to say that... I want it easy, which means it comes... from the image 'this is beyond my capacity'. 博姆：那个形象在说 我想要轻松一点，这意味着，它是来自于 那个‘这超出了我的能力范围’的形象。
18:48 K: Quite. So, let's move from there. We say, as long as you have an image... pleasant or unpleasant, created... etc. put together by thought... and so on, there is no right relationship. That's an obvious fact. 克：很对。所以，让我们从这里开始吧。 我们说，只要你还是持有一个形象 ——不管是快乐的，不快乐的，还是制造出来的形象……等等。 那些思想所拼凑出来的形象 等等——那么就不会有正确的关系。 这是一个显而易见的事实。
19:10 S: Right. 西恩博格：对。
19:11 B: And life ceases to have any value without right relationship. 博姆：而没有正确的关系，生活就会失去价值。
19:14 K: Yes. Life ceases to have any value without right relationship. My consciousness is filled with these images. 克：是的。 没有正确的关系，生活就会失去价值。 我的意识中塞满了这些形象。
19:24 S: Right. 西恩博格：没错。
19:29 K: Right? And the images make my consciousness. 克：对吧？而正是这些形象组成了我的意识。
19:34 S: That's right. 西恩博格：是的。
19:37 K: Now, you are asking me to have no images at all. That means no consciousness as I know it now. 克：而现在，你让我不要有任何的形象。 那就意味着，没有了我现在所知道的那种意识。
19:53 B: Yes... Could we say that the major part of consciousness... is the self-image? Is that what you are saying? There may be some other parts, but... 博姆：是的 我们能否说意识的主要部分 就是自我形象？这是不是就是你在说的东西？ 也许会有一些其他的部分，但是
20:01 K: We will come to that.

B: We'll come to that later. But most of it, for now - we are mostly... occupied with the self-image. 		克：我们将会来探讨这一点。

博姆：我们随后再来探讨它。 但目前来看，意识的绝大部分——我们大多 都塞满了自我形象。
20:07 K: That's right. 克：是的。
20:10 S: What about the self-image? And the whole way it generates itself... what do you think? 西恩博格：能否来谈谈自我形象？ 以及它自我产生的整个过程 你是怎么看的？
20:16 B: I think we discussed that before... it gets caught on thinking... of the self as real, and that's always implicit, to say... for example, the image may be that... I'm suffering in a certain way... and I must get rid of this suffering. But there is always... the implicit meaning in that that 'I' am there real... and therefore I must keep on thinking about this reality. And it gets caught in that feedback... we were talking about. The thought feeds back and builds up. 博姆：我想我们之前已经讨论过它了 这起因于执著地认为 那个自我是真实的，并且一直带着这样的暗示，比如说 举个例子，那个形象可能是 我有了某种痛苦 而我必须摆脱掉这种痛苦。 然而在这之中总是 存在着那种暗示的含义，即那个‘我’是真实的 因此我必须要不断地去思考这个真实之物。 于是它就陷入于这种 我们所谈论的反馈中。 思想进行了反馈，然后去建造。
20:56 S: Builds up more images.

B: More images, yes. 		西恩博格：去建造更多的形象。

博姆：更多的形象，是的。
20:58 S: More images. So that's the consciousness. 西恩博格：更多的形象。所以，这就是意识。
21:00 K: I mean, the content of my consciousness... 克：我想说，我意识的内容
21:03 S: ...is all images.

K: ...is a vast series of images... interrelated, not separate, interrelated. 		西恩博格：……就是这些形象。

克：……就是一系列数量庞大的形象 这些形象是相互联系着的，而不是分离的，它们彼此关联着。
21:11 B: But they are all centred on the self. 博姆：但它们全都是以自我为中心的。
21:13 K: On the self, of course. The self is the centre. 克：以自我为中心，当然了。自我就是中心。
21:16 B: Yes, because they are all aimed at, they are all for the self... in order to make the self right, correct. And the self is regarded as all important. 博姆：是的，因为它们都是指向它的，它们都是为了那个自我 为了让那个自我变得正当与正确。 那个自我被视为是至关重要的。
21:26 K: Yes. 克：是的。
21:27 B: That gives it tremendous energy. 博姆：而这赋予了它巨大的能量。
21:29 K: Now, what I'm getting at is... you are asking me, who am fairly serious... fairly intelligent, as an ordinary human being... you are asking me to empty that consciousness. 克：现在，我所理解的是 你在要求我这个非常认真 非常智慧的人，你是作为一个普通人 在要求我，去清空那种意识。
21:45 S: Right. I'm asking you to stop this image making. 西恩博格：对。我在要求你去停止这种形象的制造。
21:51 K: Not only the image making, the images that I have... and prevent further image making. 克：不仅是停止形象的制造，也要终止我所持有的那些形象 从而防止进一步的形象的制造。
21:58 S: Right, right.

K: Both are involved. 		西恩博格：对，没错。

克：包含了这两者。
22:02 S: Yes, I'm asking you to look at the machinery of consciousness. 西恩博格：是的，我在要求你去审视意识的运作机制。
22:05 K: Yes. Wait a minute. I want to get at that. This is very important... 克：是的。稍等一下。我想来解释一下它。 这是非常重要的东西
22:10 S: OK. Let's go! (Laughter) 西恩博格：好的。那开始吧！（笑声）
22:15 K: You are asking me, and I want... to understand you because I really want... to live a different way of living... because I see it's necessary. I don't play with words. I don't want to be highfalutin. I want to deal with this thing. You are asking me to be free of the self... which is the maker of images... and to prevent further image-making. 克：你在要求我，而我想要 理解你，因为我真的想去 过一种截然不同的生活 因为我看到了它是很有必要的。 我不想纸上谈兵，我也不想妄自尊大。 我想要去处理一下这件事。 你要求我去摆脱那个自我 ——自我就是形象的制造者 然后阻止进一步的形象的制造。
22:58 S: Right. 西恩博格：对。
23:01 K: And I say, 'please tell me what to do, how to do it'. And you tell me... 'When you ask me how to do it... you are already building an image, the system, the method'. 克：于是我说，‘请告诉我该做些什么，告诉我该怎么做’。 而你跟我说 ‘当你问我该怎么做时 你就已经建立了一个形象、一个体系和一种方法’。
23:22 B: Yes, one could say, when you say 'how am I to do it'... you have already put 'I' in the middle. 博姆：是的，我们可以说，当你问‘我要如何去做它’的时候 你就已经把那个‘我’放在中间了。
23:27 K: In the middle. 克：放在中间了。
23:28 B: The same image as before with a slightly different content. 博姆：它是和从前一样的形象，只不过内容稍有不同罢了。
23:31 K: So, you tell me don't ever ask how to do it... because the 'how'... involves the 'me' doing it.

S: Right. 		克：所以，你告诉我永远不要问‘如何去做’ 因为在‘如何’之中 就隐含了那个在做它的‘我’。

西恩博格：没错。
23:44 K: Therefore I'm creating another picture. 克：所以我又会制造出另一个形象。
23:46 B: So, that shows the way you slip... into it, because you say 'how to do it'... the word 'me' is not there but it's there implicitly. 博姆：这就展示了你是如何落入陷阱的 因为你说‘要如何去做’ 虽然这里面没有‘我’这个字，但是其中却隐含了它。
23:53 K: Implicitly, yes.

B: And therefore you slip in. 		克：隐含，是的。

博姆：因此你便落入了陷阱。
23:55 K: How am 'I' to do it - of course. 克：当然了，因为你说：‘我’要怎么去做。
23:57 B: But it usually slips in because... it's there implicitly and not explicitly. That's often the trick.

K: Explicit, yes. 		博姆：但是那个‘我’常常会溜进来，因为 因为它是隐含在里面的，尽管没有明确地显示出来。 这是它常用的诡计。

克：明确地显示出来，是的。
24:06 S: Right. 西恩博格：对。
24:07 K: Now, so you stop me and say 'then proceed from there'. How am I to free this consciousness... even a corner of it, a limited part of it... What is the action that will do it? I want to discuss it with you. Don't tell me how to do it. I've understood this. I will never again ask 'how to do it'. The 'how', as he explained, implies... implicitly, the 'me' wanting to do it, and therefore the 'me'... is the factor of the image maker. 克：好了，于是你制止了我，说：‘那么就从这里开始吧’。 我要如何去解放这种意识 即使只是它的一个角落，它的一个有限的部分 什么样的行动才能够实现它？ 我想要和你来讨论这一点。 不要告诉我该怎么做。我已经明白这一切了。 我永远不会再问‘该如何做’了。 因为就如他所解释的，‘如何’就意味着 它暗示着那个想要去做这件事的‘我’，因此那个‘我’ 就是形象制造者的要素。
24:55 K: I've understood that very clearly. Then I say to you... I realise this, what am I to do? 克：我已非常清楚地明白了这些。于是我对你说 我已醒悟到这些了，那么我要做些什么呢？
25:06 S: Do you realise it? 西恩博格：你醒悟到它了吗？
25:07 K: Yes. I know it. I know I'm making images all the time. I'm very well aware.

S: Yes, but... 		克：是的。我知道它。我知道我一直都在制造着形象。 我对此有着高度的觉察。

西恩博格：是的，可是
25:18 K: Wait. Let me finish. I'm very well aware of it. My wife calls me an idiot; already registered in the brain... thought takes it over... the image which I've about myself is hurt. 克：别急，让我把话说完。我很好地觉察到了它。 我的妻子说我是个笨蛋； 而这已经被大脑记录了下来 思想接管了它 而我所持有的自我形象受到了伤害。
25:39 S: Yes.

K: Right? So, this process I know, I'm very well aware of this. 		西恩博格：是的。

克：对吧？ 所以，我知道这个过程，我很好地觉察到了它。
25:45 S: Right. 西恩博格：没错。
25:47 K: Because I've discussed with you. I've gone into it. Because... I've realised right from the beginning during these... talks and dialogues... that relationship is the greatest importance in life; without that life is chaos.

S: Got it. 		克：因为我曾经与你们讨论过。我已经探究过它了。因为 我打从一开始就意识到了 在这些谈话与对话开始的时候，就意识到了 关系就是生命中最重要的事情 没有了它，生命就是一场混乱。

西恩博格：我明白了。
26:06 K: That has been driven into me. And I see every flattery and every insult... is registered in the brain. And thought then takes it over as memory... and creates an image, and the image gets hurt. 克：这一点已经深入我心。 我看到每一次奉承和每一次侮辱 都被记录在了大脑中。 然后思想将它作为记忆而接管了它 并且制造出了一个形象，然后那个形象受到了伤害。
26:36 S: That's right. 西恩博格：没错。
26:37 B: When you say the image is the hurt... because the image is the pleasure... and with the new content, of insult... when the content is flattery the image is pleasure... and when the content is insult the image is hurt. 博姆：你说那个形象就是伤害 那是因为形象也是快乐 这个形象有了新的内容，比如侮辱 当它的内容是奉承时，那个形象就是快乐 当内容是侮辱的时候，那个形象就是伤害。
26:49 S: Right. 西恩博格：是的。
26:51 K: So, Dr. Bohm, what is one to do? What am I to do? There are two things involved in it... 1) to prevent further hurts... and to be free of all the hurts that I've had. 克：所以，博姆博士，我们该做些什么？我该做些什么？ 这其中牵涉到了两件事情 第一，去防止进一步的伤害 然后，摆脱掉所有我曾有过的伤害。
27:09 B: But they are both the same principle. 博姆：但是这两个是同一个要素。
27:11 K: I think - you explain to me... I think there are 2 principles involved. 克：但我觉得——你可以向我解释 我觉得这其中包含了两个要素。
27:17 B: Are there? 博姆：是吗？
27:19 K: One to prevent it, the other to wipe away the hurts I have. 克：一个是预防它，另一个是清除掉我曾有过的伤害。
27:24 S: I want to put it a little bit the other way. It's not just that you want... to prevent the further hurt... but it seems to me you must first say... how am I to be aware of the fact... that I take flattery. How are you going to get aware? Look, I want you to see that if I flatter you... you get a big inner gush... you start feeling big inside your belly... and then you get a fantasy about... well if you are so wonderful this way... then you will be twice as wonderful. So now you have an image of yourself as this... wonderful person who fits this flattery. Now, I want you to see yourself... eat my candy. 西恩博格：我想要稍微换个角度来阐释一下它。 你不能只是想要去 防止进一步的伤害 在我看来，你必须首先问 我要如何去觉察到那个 我接受了奉承的事实。你要如何才能有所觉察呢？ 瞧，我想要你看到这一点，即当我奉承你时 你会心花怒放 你内心会开始感到一种自我膨胀 然后你会产生一种幻想 那就是如果你真的是这么的了不起 那么你就将变得加倍的了不起。 所以现在，你有了一个关于自己的形象，那就是某个 配得上这种奉承的了不起的人。 而现在，我想要你看到，那就是你已经 享用了我的甜言蜜语。
28:07 K: No, you have told me very clearly... It's two sides of the same coin. 克：不对，你已经非常清楚地告诉了我 它是同一个硬币的两面。
28:16 S: Right. 西恩博格：没错。
28:17 K: Pleasure and pain are the same - the same. 克：快乐与痛苦是一样的，它们是一样的东西。
28:23 S: Exactly the same.

K: Yes. You have told me that. 		西恩博格：是完全一样的。

克：是的。你已经告诉了我这一点。
28:27 S: Right. I'm telling you that.

K: I've understood it. 		西恩博格：没错。我告诉了你这一点。

克：而我已经理解它了。
28:30 B: They are both images. 博姆：它们两个都是形象。
28:31 K: Both images. So, please... my question is not answered. How am I, realising all this... - I'm a fairly intelligent man. I've read a great deal... an ordinary man - I personally don't read... an ordinary man I'm talking about. - I've read a great deal... I've discussed this and I see... how extraordinarily important all this is. And I say, I realise that... they are the 2 sides of the same coin. The brain registers and the whole... thing begins. Now, how am I to end that? Not the 'how', not the method, don't tell me what to do. I won't accept it because it means nothing to me. Right, sir? 克：都是形象。所以，请注意 我的问题还没有得到解答。 在理解了这一切以后，我要如何 ——我是一个相当聪明的人。我读了很多的书 我指的是那个普通人——就我个人而言，我并没有读过 我说的是那个普通人。 ——我已经读了很多的书 我已经讨论过它了，我看到了 这一切是多么的至关重要。 于是我说，我认识到了这一点 它们就是同一个硬币的两面。 大脑会去记录，然后那整个 过程便开始了。那么，我要如何去结束它呢？ 不是‘如何’，也不是方法，你不用告诉我该怎么做。 我是不会接受它的，因为它对我来说毫无价值。 对吗，先生？
29:30 B: Well... We were discussing whether there is a difference between... the stored up hurts and the ones which are to come. 博姆：呃 我们刚才在讨论的是 积累储存着的伤害和即将到来的伤害是否有区别。
29:41 K: That's right. That's the first thing I've to understand. Tell me. 克：没错。 这是我必须去弄明白的第一件事情。那么请你来告诉我吧。
29:45 B: It seems to me that fundamentally... they also work on the same principle. 博姆：在我看来，从根本上来讲 它们是基于同样的要素而运作的。
29:51 K: How? 克：怎么解释呢？
29:53 B: If you take the hurt that is to come... my brain is already disposed to... or set up to to respond with an image. 博姆：要是你认可了那种即将到来的伤害 大脑就已经有意去 或者去建立 以某个形象去反应。
30:07 K: No, I don't understand you. Make it much simpler. 克：不，我不明白你的意思。请说的简单一点。
30:12 S: It seems to me... I'll make it… 西恩博格：在我看来……我会把它说的
30:14 K: Ah, I'm asking him.

S: OK 		克：啊，我是在问他。

西恩博格：好吧。
30:16 K: You are an expert at it. (Laughter) You have dozens of victims... he has only one victim here. 克：你是这方面的专家。（笑声） 你有着许多受害者 他在这里只有一个受害者。
30:25 B: You see... There is no distinction really between the past hurts... and the present one because they all come from the past... come from the reaction of the past. 博姆：你瞧 过去的伤害与现在的伤害其实并没有什么区别 因为它们都是来自于过去的 来自于对过去的反应。
30:38 K: So, that's right. You are telling me... don't divide the past hurt or the future... because the image is the same.

B: Yes. The process is the same. 		克：那么，好的。你在跟我说 不要去区分过去的伤害或者未来的伤害 因为那个形象是一样的。

博姆：是的。那个过程是一样的。
30:51 K: The process, therefore the image is receiving. Right? 克：那个过程，因此，是形象在接收那些东西。对吗？
30:56 B: Yes. It really doesn't matter... because I may just be reminded of the past hurt... that's the same as somebody else insulting me. 博姆：对。但其实这并不重要 因为我也许只是想起了过去的伤害 这和其他人侮辱我时的伤害是一样的。
31:06 K: Yes, yes. So, you are saying to me... don't divide the past or the future hurt... there is only hurt... there is only pleasure, so, look at that. Look at the image, not in terms of... the past hurts and the future hurts... but just look at that image which is... both the past and the future. 克：是的，是的。所以，你在对我说 不要去区分过去或者未来的伤害 存在的只有伤害 存在的只有快感，所以，去观察它。 去观察那个形象，但不是以 过去伤害和未来伤害的方式观察它 而只是去观察那个形象，那个形象 既是过去也是未来。
31:43 B: Yes.

K: Right? 		博姆：是的。

克：对吧？
31:46 B: We are saying 'Look at the image... not in its particular content but its general structure'. 博姆：我们说‘去观察那个形象 不是观察它特定部分的内容，而是观察它的整个结构’。
31:51 K: Yes, yes, that's right. Now, then... my next question is, how am I to look at it? Because I've already an image, with which I'm going to look. That I must suppress it, you promise to me by your words... not promise exactly, give me hope... that if I have right relationship... I'll live a life that will be extraordinarily beautiful... I'll know what love is and all the rest of it... therefore I'm already excited by this idea. 克：是的，是的，没错。好了，那么 我的下一个问题就是，我要如何去观察它呢？ 因为我已经有了一个形象，而我将会带着这个形象去观察。 而我必须去制止这个形象，你的话语向我承诺了 并不是那种确切的承诺。但它给了我一种希望 那就是如果我有了正确的关系 我就可以过上那种无比美好的生活 我将会知晓什么是爱，等等这些东西 所以我已经因为这种想法而兴奋不已了。
32:29 B: But then I have to be aware of the image of that kind too. 博姆：但那时我也同样要觉察到上述这个形象。
32:33 K: Yes, yes. Therefore how am I - that's my point... How am I to look at this image? I know I have an image, not only one image... but several images, but the centre... of that image is me, the 'I', I know all that. Now, how am I to look at it? May we proceed now? Right. Is the observer different from that which he is observing? 克：是的，是的。所以，我要如何去——这是我的重点 我要如何去观察这个形象？ 我知道我有着一个形象，不只是一个形象 而是好多个形象，然而形象的中心 是我自己，那个‘我’，我清楚这一切。 那么，我要如何去观察它呢？ 我们可以现在就开始吗？好的。 观察者和他所观察的东西是不同的吗？
33:17 B: Yes, well...

K: That's the real question. 		博姆：是的，嗯……

克：这才是真正的问题。
33:19 B: ...that's the question. You could say that's the root of the power of the image. 博姆：……这就是问题所在。 你可以说它就是形象力量的源头所在。
33:23 K: Yes, yes. You see, sir, what happens? If there is a difference between the observer and the observed... there is that interval of time in which other activities go on. 克：是的，是的。你瞧，先生，发生了什么？ 要是观察者和所观之物间有了差别 那么就会有一种时间上的间隔，在这个间隔中会有其他的活动发生。
33:38 B: Well, yes, in which the brain sort of... eases itself into something more pleasant. 博姆：嗯，是的，在这个间隔中，大脑会在某种程度上 让自己慢慢地进入到某种更令人愉快的事物中去。
33:43 K: Yes, yes. 克：是的，是的。
33:45 B: Yes, that's all right. 博姆：是的，没错。
33:48 K: And where there is a division there is conflict. So, you are telling me to observe... in a different way, learn the art of observing... which is... that the observer is the observed. 克：而当有了某种分裂时，就会有冲突。 所以，你告诉我要以一种不同的方式去观察 学会那种观察的艺术 也就是 观察者就是被观之物。
34:12 B: Yes, but I think we could look first at our whole tradition... our whole conditioning, which is the observer is different... from the observed.

K: Different, of course. 		博姆：是的，但是我觉得我们可以首先来看一下我们的整个传统 我们的全部的局限，那就是观察者是不同于 被观之物的。

克：毫无疑问，它是不同的。
34:21 B: We should perhaps look at that for a while. 博姆：我们或许可以暂时先来审视一下它。
34:23 K: Yes. 克：好的。
34:24 B: Because that's what everybody feels. 博姆：因为这就是每一个人的感觉。
34:27 K: Yes. That the observer is different. 克：是的。也就是观察者是不同的事物。
34:29 B: Yes. And I think it ties up with what... I was saying yesterday about reality... everything we think is reality of some kind... because at least it's thought, real thought. But we make a distinction... in reality between that reality which is... self-reference, self-sustaining... it stands independent of thought... and the reality which is sustained by thought. 博姆：是的。而我觉得这一点可以关联到 我昨天所说的关于真实之物的内容 我们所思考的每一样事物都是某种真实之物 因为至少它是思想，真正的思想。 但是我们区分了 那些真实之物，把它们分成了 那种自我指涉、自我维持的真实之物 ——它是独立于思想的—— 和那种由思想所维持的真实之物。
34:57 K: Yes, reality sustained by thought. 克：是的，由思想所维持的真实之物。
35:00 B: And the reality which may have been made by man... but it stands by itself... like the table, or else like nature which... 博姆：那个真实之物也许是人类所制造的 但它却是独自存在的 就像是桌子，要不然就是像那些自然界的事物，它是
35:06 K: ...is different.

B: ...is different. 		克：……不同的东西。

博姆：……它是不同的。
35:08 K: Yes, that we went through the other day. 克：是的，这个我们前几天已经彻底讨论过了。
35:10 B: The observer, ordinarily we think... that when I'm thinking of myself... that self is a reality which is independent of thought. 博姆：对于那个观察者，我们通常会觉得 当我思考我自己时 那个自我是一个真实之物，它是独立于思想的。
35:20 K: Yes, we think that's independent of thought. 克：是的，我们认为它是独立于思想的。
35:24 B: And that self is the observer who is a reality. 博姆：而这个自我就是那个作为真实之物的观察者。
35:29 K: Quite. 克：说得对。
35:30 B: Who is independent of thought and... who is thinking, who is producing thought. 博姆：这个观察者是独立于思想的 是他在思考，是他在制造着思想。
35:34 K: But it's the product of thought.

B: Yes, but that's the confusion. 		克：但是他本身也是思想的产物。

博姆：是的，这就是令人困惑的地方。
35:37 K: Yes, quite, quite. Are you telling me sir, as an outsider... that the observer is the result of the past? 克：是的，完全正确，完全正确。 先生，作为一个局外人，你是不是会告诉我 那就是观察者是过去的产物？
35:53 B: Yes, one can see that. 博姆：是的，我们可以看到这一点。
35:55 K: My memories, my experiences, all the rest, the past. 克：我的记忆，我的经验，等等这些东西，那些过去的东西。
35:58 B: Yes, but I think if we think of the viewer... he might find it a little hard... to follow that, if he hasn't gone into it. 博姆：是的，但是我觉得如果我们从观察者的角度去考虑的话 要是那个观察者没有探究过它，那么他也许会觉得这 有点难以理解。
36:06 S: Very hard, I think. How to communicate it to... 西恩博格：我想这是非常难以理解的。你要如何将它传达给
36:09 K: Ah, wait, it's fairly simple.

S: What do you mean? 		克：啊，等一下，它是相当简单的。

西恩博格：你的意思是什么？
36:14 K: Don't you live in the past? 克：你难道不是活在过去中的吗？
36:17 S: I think I exist in the past. 西恩博格：我想我存在于过去中。
36:19 K: Wait, no, no. Your life is the past. You're living in the past. Right? 克：等一等，不是，不是。你的生活就是过去。 你是活在过去中的。对吗？
36:26 S: That's right, yes. 西恩博格：对，是这样的。
36:28 K: Past memories, past experiences. 克：过去的记忆，过去的经验。
36:29 S: Past memories, past becomings, trying to become. 西恩博格：过去的记忆，过去的样子，试图去变成那个样子。
36:32 K: And from the past you project the future. 'I hope it will be better, I'll be good, I'll be different'. It's always from the past to the future. 克：然后你经由过去而投射出了未来。 ‘我希望它会变得更好，我将会变得优秀，我将会变得不同’。 它总是经由过去而前进至未来。
36:42 S: Right. That's how it's lived. 西恩博格：对。它就是这样存活下来的。
36:45 K: Now, I want to see... that past is the 'me'... of course. 克：而现在，我想要看到 那个过去就是‘我’ 这是毫无疑问的。
36:54 B: But it does look as if it's something independent... just that you are looking at.

K: Is it independent? 		博姆：但是它看起来的确像是某个独立的东西 而你正在看着那个东西。

克：它是独立的吗？
36:59 B: It isn't but to see that... 博姆：它并不是独立的，但是要看到这一点
37:01 K: I know, that's why we are asking. Is the 'me' independent from the past? 克：我理解，所以我们在问它。 那个‘我’是独立于过去的吗？
37:07 B: It looks as if the 'me' is here looking at the past. 博姆：看起来好像是那个‘我’正在这里观察着过去。
37:09 K: Of course, quite. The 'me' is in a jar, in a cage (laughs)... and that is looking. Quite. 克：当然了，很对。 那个‘我’在一个罐子里，在一个笼子里（笑） 他在观察着。没错。
37:19 S: That's right. 西恩博格：对。
37:21 K: But the 'me' is the product of the past. 克：但这个‘我’是过去的产物。
37:25 S: You can see that, but what's that jump that we go through... where we say... - I can say to you, 'I can see that... I'm the product of the past. I can see that'. 西恩博格：你可以看到这一点，但是我们在这里跳跃了一步 我们说 ——我可以对你说，‘我能够看到 我就是过去的产物。我可以看到这一点’。
37:36 K: How do you see it?

B: Intellectually. 		克：你是如何看到它的？

博姆：从思维理性的角度。
37:38 S: I see it intellectually.

K: Then you don't see it. 		西恩博格：我从思维理性上看到了它。

克：那么你其实并没有看到它。
37:41 S: That's what I'm coming to.

K: Then you are playing tricks. 		西恩博格：这正是我准备来谈一下的。

克：那么你就是在耍小聪明。
37:44 S: Right. I see it as an intellectual... That's right. I see it intellectually. 西恩博格：没错。我把它视为一种思维理性上的 对。我是从理性角度看到它的。
37:53 K: Do you see this intellectually? 克：你是从思维理性上看到它的吗？
37:54 S: No.

K: Why? 		西恩博格：不是。

克：为什么？
37:56 S: There is an immediacy of perception there. 西恩博格：那时会有一种直接的感知。
37:59 K: In the same way, why isn't there... an immediacy of perception of a truth... which is, that you are the past? Not to make it an intellectual affair. 克：那么一样的道理，为什么你会无法 直接感知到那个真相 即‘你就是过去’呢？ 不要把它变成一种智力上的解释。
38:08 S: Because time comes in. I imagine that I've gone through time. 西恩博格：因为时间介入进来了。 我想象自己已经历了时间。
38:12 K: What do you mean imagine? 克：你所说的‘想象’是什么意思？
38:14 S: I've an image of myself at 3... I've an image of myself at 10... and I've an image of myself at 17, and I say that... they followed in sequence in time, and I see myself... having developed over time. I'm different now than I was 5 years ago. 西恩博格：我持有着一个我3岁时的形象 我有着一个我10岁时的形象 我有着一个我17岁时的形象，然后我说 它们是按照时间顺序依次到来的，然后我发现自己 通过时间而得以成长了。 现在的我和5年前的我不同了。
38:31 K: Are you? 克：是吗？
38:33 S: I'm telling you that's how I've got that image. That image is of a developmental sequence. 西恩博格：我只是在告诉你，我是如何获得那个形象的。 那个形象会依照时间顺序而发展。
38:40 K: I understand all that, sir.

S: In time. Right? 		克：先生，我明白这一切。

西恩博格：它是落入于时间中的。对吧？
38:42 B: Yes. 博姆：是的。
38:44 S: And I exist as a storehouse of memories of a bunch of... accumulated incidents. 西恩博格：而我的存在就如同一个仓库，一个储存着一大堆 积累起来的各种事件的记忆的仓库。
38:52 K: That means, time has produced that. 克：这意味着，是时间制造出了这些东西。
38:56 S: Right. That's time. I see that. 西恩博格：对，是时间。我看到了这一点。
39:00 K: What is time? 克：时间是什么？
39:01 S: I've just described it to you. Time is my memories, is a movement in memory. 西恩博格：我刚才已经向你描述过它了。 时间就是我的记忆，它是一种记忆中的运动。
39:06 K: It's a movement. It's a movement.

S: That's right. 		克：它是一种运动。 时间是一种运动。

西恩博格：没错。
39:13 K: The movement from the past. 克：一种来自于过去的运动。
39:16 S: Right. I've moved from the time I was 3. 西恩博格：对。我从我3岁的时候，从那里开始运动。
39:21 K: From the past, it's a movement. 克：从过去出发，它是一种运动。
39:22 S: That's right. From 3 to 10, 17. 西恩博格：没错。从3岁到10岁，再到17岁。
39:25 K: I understand. It's a movement. Now, is that movement an actuality? 克：我明白。总之它是一种运动。 那么，这种运动是真实存在的吗？
39:36 S: What do you mean by actuality? 西恩博格：你说的‘真实存在’是什么意思？
39:38 B: Or is it an image?

K: Eh? 		博姆：还是说它是一种形象？

克：啊？
39:40 B: Is it an image or is it an actual fact? 博姆：它到底是一种形象，还是一个确凿的事实？
39:42 K: Yes. 克：说的没错。
39:43 B: I mean... If I have an image of myself as saying, 'I need this'... but that may not be an actual fact. Right? 博姆：我的意思是 要是我持有一个关于自己的形象，比如说，‘我需要这个’ 但那也许并不是一个确凿的事实。对吗？
39:51 K: Image is not a fact. 克：形象并不是事实。
39:55 S: But I feel... 西恩博格：但是我感觉
39:56 K: Ah, no. What you feel is like saying 'my experience'. Your experience may be the most absurd experience. 克：啊，不对。你的感觉就好像是在畅谈‘我的经验’。 然而你的经验也许是最荒谬的经验。
40:03 S: No, but that's casting me aside... by saying 'look, you have got this going on'. This is a fact, I'm describing an actual... 西恩博格：不，但是这样的话，你就把我丢在了一边 你说‘瞧，你正在犯这个毛病’。 这是一个事实。我正在描述一个实际的
40:11 B: But that's just the whole point... about the image, is that it imitates... an actual fact, do you see? You get the feeling it's real. In other words, I feel that I'm really there, an actual fact... looking at the past, how I've developed, right? 博姆：但这正是关于 形象的重点所在，那就是它仿造了 一个确凿的事实，你明白了吗？让你感觉到它是真实的。 换句话说，我感觉自己真实地存在着，这是一个确凿的事实 ‘我’在观察着过去，看自己是如何成长的，对吗？
40:23 S: Right. 西恩博格：对。
40:24 B: But is that a fact that I'm doing that? 博姆：但是‘我’在做这件事，这是一个事实吗？
40:27 S: What do you mean? It's an actual fact that I get the feeling... that I'm looking at it. 西恩博格：你的意思是什么？ 这的确是一个事实，那就是我感觉到 我正在观察着它。
40:32 B: Yes, but is it an actual fact that that's the way it all is... and was and so on... that all the implications of that are correct. 博姆：是的，但这是不是一个确凿的事实——即这就是它全部的模样 这就是它过去的模样，等等 其中所暗示的所有东西都是正确的吗？
40:43 S: No, it's not an actuality. I can see the incorrectness of my memory... which constructs me in time. Obviously I was much more at 3 than I can remember... I was much more at 10 than I can remember... and there was much more going on obviously in actuality... at 17 than I have in my memory. 西恩博格：不，它并不是一种‘真实存在’。 我可以看到我记忆的不真实性 它在时间中构筑了那个‘我’。 很显然，我在3岁时候的实际情况要比我所能记得的更多 我在10岁时候的实际情况要比我所能记得的更多 就实际情况来说，在我17岁的时候，很显然有更多的事情曾经发生过 它超过了我所记得的东西。
41:05 B: Yes, but now the 'me' who is here and now... is looking at all that. 博姆：是的，但是现在，那个‘我’在这里 他正在观察着这一切。
41:10 S: That's right. 西恩博格：没错。
41:11 B: But is he there and is he looking? That's the question. 博姆：但是他真的在那里吗？他真的在观察吗？ 这就是问题所在。
41:14 S: Is the me...

K: ...an actuality? 		西恩博格：这个‘我’是不是……

克：……是不是一种真实存在？
41:18 S: ...an actuality.

K: As this is. 		西恩博格：……真实存在。

克：就像这个东西一样。
41:26 S: Well, let's...

K: Stick to it. 		西恩博格：嗯，让我们……

克：紧扣这一点。
41:28 S: That's what I'm going to do. What is an actuality is this development... this image of a developmental sequence. 西恩博格：这就是我马上要来说的东西。 真实存在着的是这种成长 这种按照顺序而成长的形象。
41:38 B: And the me who is looking at it. 博姆：以及那个在观察着这一切的‘我’。
41:40 S: And the me who is looking at it, right. That's right. 西恩博格：以及那个在看着它的‘我’。对，没错。
41:44 B: I think that's one of the things we slip out, because we say... there is the developmental sequence objectively... implying 'me' is looking at it... like I'm looking at the plant. 博姆：我认为这就是我们无意中暴露出来的东西之一，因为我们说 从客观上来讲，存在着这种依照顺序的成长 而这就意味着有一个‘我’在观察着它 就像我在看着这个植物一样。
41:54 S: Right. 西恩博格：对。
41:55 B: But it may be, or in fact it is... that the 'me' who is looking at it... is an image as is the developmental sequence. 博姆：但也许，或者说事实上 是那个在观察它的‘我’ 这个‘我’就是那个按照顺序而成长的形象。
42:04 S: Right. You are saying then that this image of 'me' is... 西恩博格：没错。所以你在说的是，这个‘我’的形象是
42:10 K: ...is non-reality, it's no reality. 克：……是不真实的，它不是真实之物。
42:13 B: Well, the only reality is that it's thought. 博姆：嗯，唯一的真相就是它是思想。
42:15 K: Yes. 克：是的。
42:16 B: It's not a reality independent of thinking. 博姆：它并不是一个独立于思想的真实之物。
42:18 K: So, we must go back to find out what is reality. 克：所以，我们必须要退回去，去搞清楚什么才是真实的东西。
42:22 K: Reality, we said, is everything that thought has put together. the table, the illusion, the churches, the nations... everything that thought has contrived... put together, is reality. But nature is not reality.

S: Right. 		克：我们说过，思想所拼凑出来的一切东西都是真实之物。 桌子，那些错觉、教堂、国家 一切思想所设计发明出来的东西 拼凑出来的东西，都是‘真实之物’。 但自然并不是那种‘真实之物’。

西恩博格：对。
42:41 K: Is not put together by thought, but it's a reality. 克：自然并不是由思想所拼凑出来的，但自然却是真实的。
42:45 B: It's a reality independent of thought. 博姆：它是一种独立于思想的真实存在。
42:46 K: Independent of thought.

S: Right. 		克：它独立于思想。

西恩博格：没错。
42:48 B: But you see, is the 'me' who is looking, a reality... that's independent of thought like nature? 博姆：但是你瞧，那个在观察的‘我’，那个真实之物 它是像自然那样独立于思想的吗？
42:55 K: That's the whole point. You have understood? 克：这就是要点所在。你理解了吗？
42:58 S: Yes, I'm beginning to see. Let me ask you a question... Can you say anything about the difference for you... between your... No, that's not fair. I was going to say... Is there any difference for you... between this perception, perception of this... and your perception of the 'me'? 西恩博格：是的，我开始明白它了。 我想问你一个问题 你能否来谈谈对你而言，那个不同之处 也就是 不，这并不公平。我要说的是 对你来说，这种觉察 也就是觉察这个东西 和你对于‘我’的觉察是否有所不同？
43:23 K: This is real, 'me' is not real. 克：这个东西是真实的，而‘我’不是真实的。
43:25 S: 'Me' is not real, but your perception of 'me'? 西恩博格：‘我’不是真实的，但是你却觉察到了‘我’？
43:28 K: It doesn't exist. 克：‘我’并不存在。
43:31 B: Suppose... 博姆：假设你察觉到了
43:32 S: Your perception of the image. 西恩博格：你觉察到了那个形象。
43:35 K: I have no image. if I have no image, where is the 'me'? 克：我并不持有任何形象。如果我没有形象，‘我’又在哪里呢？
43:39 S: But I have an image of 'me'. What is my perception of 'me'? 西恩博格：但是我有着一个‘我’的形象。 那么我对于那个‘我’的觉察又是什么呢？
43:44 B: Could I put it another way? Suppose you are watching a conjuring trick... and you perceive a woman being sawed in half. And then when you see the trick you say... What's your perception of this woman... who is being sawed in half? It isn't because she isn't being sawed in half. I'm trying to say as long as you don't see... through the trick, what you see apparently real... is somebody being cut in half. But you have missed certain points, but when you see... the points that you have missed... you don't see anybody being cut in half. 博姆：我能不能来换个说法？ 假如你在观赏一个魔术 你看到了一个女人被锯成两半。 而当你看清了那个把戏，你就会问 你对于这个 被锯成两半的女人的观察是怎样的？ 这个观察是不同的，因为她并没有被锯成两半。 我想说的是，只要你还是没有 看穿那个把戏，那么你所看到的貌似真实的现象就是 某人被切成了两半。 但是你并没有触及到某些要点，然而，当你看到 那些你未触及到的要点时 那么你眼中就不会有任何人被切成两半了。
44:16 S: Right. 西恩博格：是的。
44:18 B: You just see a trick. 博姆：你看到的只是一个把戏。
44:20 S: So I have missed the essence of it. 西恩博格：所以我并没有触及到它的实质。
44:23 K: No sir, just let's be simple. We said... we have images... I know I have images, and you tell me to look at it... to be aware of it, to perceive the image. Is the perceiver different from the perceived? That's all my question.

S: I know. I know. 		克：不，先生，让我们简单一点。 我们说 我们有着形象 我知道自己持有着形象，而你告诉我，要去观察它 去觉察到它，去感知到那个形象。 那么这个感知者与他所感知的事物是不同的吗？ 这就是我全部的问题了。

西恩博格：我明白，我明白。
44:55 K: Because if he is different... then the whole process of conflict... will go on endlessly. Right? But if there is no division... the observer is the observed... then the whole problem changes. 克：因为如果他是不同的 那么整个冲突的过程 就会无止境地继续下去。对吗？但如果不存在分裂 观察者就是被观之物的话 那么整个问题就转变了。
45:10 S: Right. 西恩博格：没错。
45:12 K: Right? So is the observer different from the observed? Obviously, not. So, can I look at that image without the observer? And is there an image when there is no observer? Because the observer makes the image... because the observer is the movement of thought. 克：对吧？ 所以观察者和被观之物是不同的吗？ 很显然，它是不同的。 那么，我能否没有观察者地去观察那个形象？ 当没有了观察者时，还会有一个形象吗？ 因为是观察者制造了形象 因为观察者就是思想的运动。
45:48 B: We shouldn't call it the observer then... because it's not looking. The language is confusing.

K: The language, yes. 		博姆：那么，我们就不应该把它称之为观察者 因为它并没有在观察。 语言会带来混淆。

克：语言，是的。
45:54 B: Because if you say 'it's an observer' that implies that... something is looking.

K: Yes, quite. 		博姆：因为如果你说‘它是一个观察者’，这就意味着 某个东西在观察着。

克：是的，很对。
45:58 B: What you are really meaning is that... thought is moving and creating an image... as if it were looking but nothing is being seen. Therefore there is no observer. 博姆：而你真正的意思是 思想在运动着，并且创造出了一个形象 就好像它在观察着，但是却没有观察到任何事物。 因此，并不存在观察者。
46:07 K: Quite right. But put it round the other way... is there a thinking without thought? 克：非常正确。但是换一种方式来说就是 是否存在一种没有思想的思考？
46:13 B: What? 博姆：什么？
46:14 K: Is there a thinker without thought? 克：是否存在没有思想的思考者？
46:17 S: No. 西恩博格：不存在。
46:19 K: Exactly. There you are! If there is no experiencer is there an experience? So, you have asked me to look at my image... and you said, look at it... which is a very serious and very penetrating demand. You say, look at it without the observer... because the observer is the image-maker... and if there is no observer... if there is no thinker, there is no thought. Right? So, there is no image. You have shown me something enormously significant. 克：完全正确。你终于明白了！ 要是不存在经验者的话，还会有经验吗？ 所以，你要求我去观察我的形象 你说，去观察它 这是一个非常严肃和非常尖锐的要求。 你说，要没有观察者地去观察它 因为观察者就是形象的制造者 要是没有观察者 没有思考者的话，那么就不会有思想了。对吗？ 所以，也就没有了形象。 你向我展示了一些意义重大的东西。
47:22 S: As you said, the question changes completely. 西恩博格：就像你说的，那个问题彻底转变了。
47:25 K: Completely. It's gone, I have no image. 克：彻底变了。它消失了，我不再持有形象。
47:28 S: It feels completely different. It's like, there is a silence. 西恩博格：会有截然不同的感觉，那就像是有了一种寂静。
47:33 K: So, I was saying, as my consciousness... is the consciousness of the world... because in essence... it's filled with the things of thought, sorrow... fear, pleasure, despair, anxiety... attachment, detachment, hope... it's a turmoil of confusion... a sense of deep agony is involved in it all. And in that state you cannot have any relationship... with any human being. So, you say to me... to have the greatest and the most responsible relationship... is to have no image. 克：所以，我说，由于我的意识 就是这个世界的意识 因为从本质上而言 意识之中充满了思想之物、悲伤 恐惧、快感、绝望、焦虑 执著、弃绝、希望 它是一场充满混乱的骚动 在它之中包含了极度的痛苦感。 而在那样的状态下，你是无法 与任何人产生关系的。 所以，你对我说 要拥有那种最好的，最负责的关系 就意味着不要有形象。
48:33 S: That's to be responsive to 'what is'. 西恩博格：那就是要去对‘事实’做出回应。
48:36 K: Don't translate it. 克：不要去诠释它。
48:38 S: It is. I mean, this means to be responsive. 西恩博格：它就是如此。我的意思是，它意味着要做出回应。
48:40 K: Yes.

S: To open it up. 		克：是的。

西恩博格：去打开它。
48:42 K: So, you have pointed out to me... that to be free of images... the maker of image must be absent... the maker of the image is the past... is the observer who says... 'I like this', 'I don't like this'... 'It's my wife, my husband, my house'... you follow? the 'me', who is in essence the image. So, you see, I've understood this. Now, the next question is... Is the image... deep, hidden? Are the images hidden... which I can't grapple, which I can't get hold of? You follow, sir? Are they in the cave, in the underground... somewhere hidden... which you have told me there are... all you experts have told me... 'Yes, there are dozens of underground images'. How am I, because I accept you… I say 'Yes, by Jove, they must know... they know much more than I do... therefore they say so'. So I accept it. I say... 'Yes, there are underground images. Now, how am I to unearth them... expose them, out?' You see, you have put me, the ordinary man... into a terrible position. 克：所以，你已经向我指出了 要摆脱形象 那个形象的制造者就必须消失 形象的制造者就是过去 他就是那个观察者，这个观察者在说 ‘我喜欢这个’，‘我不喜欢这个’ ‘这是我的妻子、我的丈夫、我的房子’ 你跟上了吗？ 那个‘我’，他本质上就是形象。 所以你瞧，我已经明白了它。 那么，接下来的问题就是 那个形象是 深藏不露的吗？那些形象是不是隐藏起来的 以至于我无法捉住它，我无法领会理解它？ 你跟上了吗？先生。 它们是不是藏在山洞里，藏在地下 藏在某个隐蔽角落里 你们告诉我存在着这些形象 你们都是专家，你们告诉我 ‘是的，存在着许多隐蔽的形象’。 那么我要如何——因为我已经接受了你们的说法 我说‘是的，好家伙，他们一定知道 他们比我知道的更多 因此既然他们这么说……’那么我就接受它吧。我说 ‘是的，存在着那些隐蔽的形象。 那么，我要如何去揭示出它们 把它们曝光出来呢？ 你瞧，你们已经将我这个普通人 置于了一个非常糟糕的境地。
50:17 S: You don't have to unearth them... if this is clear to you there is no... 西恩博格：你并不需要去揭示出它们 要是你清楚这一点：即不存在着
50:23 K: But you have established already in me the poison. 克：但是你们已经将这种毒药注入了我体内。
50:28 S: You don't exist anymore. Once it's clear to you... that the observer is the observed... 西恩博格：一旦当你明白了这一点，你就不复存在了 因为你明白了观察者就是被观之物
50:37 K: Therefore you are saying there is no unconscious. 克：所以你在说的是并不存在着潜意识。
50:40 S: Right.

K: Ah! You, the expert? 		西恩博格：没错。

克：啊！这是你说的吗？你可是专家。
50:42 S: No, I said... (laughs) 西恩博格：不，我说的是……（笑）
50:46 K: You, who talk endlessly about unconscious to your patients? 克：这还是那个向病人无休止地谈论潜意识的你吗？
50:50 S: No, I don't. (Laughs) 西恩博格：不，我可没有这么做。（笑）
50:53 K: Therefore you say there is no unconscious? 克：所以你在说并不存在着潜意识？
50:56 S: Right. 西恩博格：是的。
50:58 K: I agree with you! I say, it is so. 克：我同意你的看法！我说，事实就是如此。
51:01 S: Right. 西恩博格：对。
51:03 K: The moment when you see the observer is the observed... the observer is the maker of images, it's finished. 克：一旦当你看到观察者就是被观之物 观察者就是形象的制造者时，它就结束了。
51:11 S: Finished. Right.

K: Right through. 		西恩博格：结束了。是的。

克：彻底结束了。
51:15 S: If you really see that. 西恩博格：要是你真正看到它的话。
51:16 K: That's it! So, the consciousness which I know, in which we've lived... has undergone a tremendous transformation. Has it? Has it to you? 克：正是如此！ 所以，那种我所知道的意识，那种我们所生活于其中的意识 经历了一次巨大的转变。 它有没有？你的意识转变了吗？
51:39 S: Mm. 西恩博格：嗯。
51:39 K: No, sir, I mean, don't… has it to you? And if I may ask, Dr. Bohm, both... all of us, realising that the observer is the observed... and therefore the image-maker is no longer in existence... and so, the content of consciousness... which makes up consciousness... is not as we know it. Right? What then? We've got 5 minutes. 克：不，先生，我的意思是，请不要……你的意识转变了吗？ 要是我可以问一下的话，博姆博士，我们俩 我们所有人，意识到了观察者就是被观之物 因此那个形象的制造者不复存在了 所以，意识的内容 ——正是这些内容组成了意识—— 不再是我们所知的样子。 对吗？那么接下来会怎样？ 我们还剩下五分钟。
52:34 S: I don't know how to answer you there. 西恩博格：我不知道该如何来回答它。
52:36 K: Sir, this is... - you follow? I'm asking this question because... it involves meditation. I'm asking this question... because all religious people, the really serious ones... I'm not talking of the gurus and all their flummery... the real serious people... who have gone into this question... as long as we live in daily life... within the area of this consciousness... - of anxiety, fear and all the rest of it... with all its images, and the image-maker... whatever we do will still be in that area. Right? I may join one year Zen, become a Zen, shave my head... and do all kinds of stuff... then another year, I go and become some guru… follow some guru, and so on, but it's always within that area. 克：先生，这件事情……——你明白了吗？ 我之所以问这个问题，是因为 其中就包含了冥想。 我之所以问这个问题 是因为所有具有宗教性的人，那些真正认真的人 我指的不是那些古鲁们和所有他们的蠢话 我说的是那些真正认真的人 那些已经深入探究过这个问题的人 只要我们每天还是生活在 这种意识的领域里 ——其中充满了焦虑、恐惧，等等这些东西 以及它所有的形象和那个形象的制造者 那么无论我们做什么，都仍旧是落入于那个领域中的。对吗？ 我也许信了一年的禅宗，成为了一名禅宗信徒，剃光了我的头发 然后去做所有那些相关的事情 然后过了一年，我又摇身一变成为了一名古鲁 或者去跟随某个古鲁，等等，然而它却总是落入于那个领域中的。
53:49 S: Right. 西恩博格：没错。
53:50 K: So, what happens when there is no movement of thought... which is the image making, what then takes place? You understand my question? When time, which is the movement... of thought, ends, then what is there? Because you have led me up to this point. I understand it very well. I've tried Zen Buddhism... I've tried Zen meditation, I've tried Hindu meditation... I've tried all the kinds of... miserable practices and all that... and I meet you, I hear you and I say... 'By Jove, this is something... extraordinary, what these people are saying. They say, the moment… when there is no image-maker... the content of consciousness... undergoes a radical transformation... and thought comes to an end... except when it absolutely has its right place... knowledge and all the rest of it'. So, thought comes to an end, time has a stop. What then? Do you understand? Is that death? 克：所以当没有了思想的运动时，会发生什么？ ——思想的运动就是制造形象，那时会发生什么呢？ 你明白我的问题了吗？ 当时间——也就是思想的运动—— 停止时，还会剩下什么？ 因为你已经引领着我深入到了这一点。 我完全理解了它。我已经尝试过了禅宗佛教 我已经尝试过了禅宗冥想，我也尝试过了印度教的冥想 我已经试过了所有这些 痛苦的练习，等等 然后我遇到了你，我听了你的说法，然后我说 ‘天啊，这些人在说的东西 是非同凡响的。 他们说，一旦 没有了形象的制造者 意识的内容 就会经历一次彻底的转变 而思想将会终止 除了出现在它绝对正确的位置上 比如知识，等等这些地方’。 所以，思想终止了，时间也停止了。 那么接下来会怎样呢？你理解了吗？ 那是一种死亡吗？
55:21 S: It's the death of the self. 西恩博格：它是自我的死亡。
55:22 K: No, no. We've got 3 minutes more... we've got 1 minute more. 克：不，不。我们还剩三分钟了 我们还剩一分钟。
55:33 S: This is the same as self destruction. 西恩博格：这和摧毁自我是一样的。
55:35 K: No, no, sir. It's much more than that. 克：不，不，先生。它远不止这些。
55:39 S: It's the end of something. 西恩博格：它是某些事物的终止。
55:40 K: No, no. Just listen to it. When thought stops, when there is no image-maker... there is a complete transformation... in consciousness... because there is no anxiety, there is no fear... there is no pursuit of pleasure... there is none of the things... that create turmoil, division, and what... comes into being, or what happens? Not as an experience because that's out. What takes place in there? Because - you follow? I've to find out. You may be leading me up the wrong path! I think we should stop. 克：不是，不是。请听好。 当思想停止了，当没有了形象的制造者 那么就会有一种 意识的彻底转变 因为那时没有了焦虑，没有了恐惧 没有了对快感的追逐 没有什么东西还会再 制造出混乱和分裂，然后 会出现什么呢？或者说会发生什么呢？ 那时发生的不再是一种经验，因为经验已经不存在了。 那时发生的是什么？ 因为——你跟上了吗？我必须要去把它搞清楚。 你也许正带领着我误入歧途！ 我想我们只能到此为止了。