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BR76CTM7 - 生命是神圣的
与博姆和西恩博格的第七次探讨
英国，布洛克伍德
1976年5月20日



0:11 K: After this morning... as an outsider, you've left me completely... empty... completely without any future, without any past... without any image. So where am I? 克：今天早上过后 作为一个局外人，你们已经使我完全地 清空了自己 完全没有了未来，没有了过去 也没有了任何形象。 那么，我在哪里呢？
0:42 S: Right. Somebody said that was watching us this morning... or one of the people around here said... 'How am I going to get out of bed in the morning?' 西恩博格：嗯。有人会说今天早上在观看我们的对话 或者这里的某个人会说 ‘早上我要如何才能够起床呢？’
0:50 B: Oh, yes. 博姆：哦，是的。
0:53 K: No, I think that is fairly easy - that question of getting... out of bed in the morning it's fairly simple. Because I have to get up and do things, life demands... that I act, not just stay in bed for the rest of my life. I have been left as an outsider who is viewing all this... who is listening to all this, with a sense of 'blank wall'. A sense of... 'I understand what you have said… because it has been made very clear to me. I have at one glance, I have rejected... all the systems, all the gurus... the Zen Buddhism, this Buddhism... this meditation, that meditation and so on... and I've discarded all that because I've understood... the meditator is the meditation. But I haven't still… feel... Have I solved my problem of sorrow? Do I know what it means to love? Do I understand what is compassion? Live - not understand... intellectually I can spin a lot of words... but at the end of all this... these dialogues... after discussing with you all, listening to you... Have I this sense of astonishing energy which is compassion? the end of my sorrow. Do I know what it means to love somebody... love human beings?

S: Actually love. 		克：不，我觉得它是比较容易的事——关于早晨起床的问题 它是相当简单的。 因为我需要起来去做一些事情，生活需要 我行动起来，而不只是在床上度过我的余生。 我已经作为一个局外人，观察了所有这些东西 聆听了所有这些东西，但却觉得有着一道‘无形的屏障’。 那种感觉就是 ‘我明白了你所说的东西 因为你们已经把它解释得很清楚了。 我对此有了一瞥，我已经拒绝了 所有的体系，所有的古鲁 拒绝了禅宗佛教，这种佛教 这种冥想、那种冥想等等 我已经丢弃了所有这些东西，因为我已经明白了 那个冥想者就是冥想。 但是我仍旧还没有……我觉得 我是否已解决了自己痛苦悲伤的问题？ 我是否知道了爱意味着什么？ 我有没有明白什么是慈悲？ 去经验它——而不是明白它 我可以从理性智力上夸夸其谈 但是在这一切的最后 在这些对话的最后 在和你们所有人讨论之后，聆听了你们之后 我是否感觉到了那种惊人的能量——也就是慈悲？ 我悲伤痛苦的终结。 我是否知道了爱一个人意味着什么 爱人类意味着什么？

西恩博格：真正地去爱。
2:46 K: Actually, actually.

S: Not talk about it. 		克：真正地，实际的。

西恩博格：而不是纸上谈兵。
2:48 K: No, no. I've gone beyond all that. And you haven't shown me what death is. 克：不，不。我已经超越了所有那些东西。 然而你们还没有告诉我什么是死亡？
2:59 B: Yes. 博姆：是的。
3:01 K: I haven't understood a thing about death. You haven't talked to me about it. So, there are these things we should cover... before we have finished this evening, a lot of ground to cover. 克：我对死亡还一无所知。 你们还没有和我谈论过它。 所以，我们还应该去谈谈这些东西 我们需要在今晚的谈话结束之前去触及那些广泛的内容。
3:17 B: OK. Could we begin on the question of death? 博姆：好的。我们可以从死亡的问题开始吗？
3:20 K: Yes. Let's begin on death. 克：嗯，让我们先来谈谈死亡。
3:24 B: The one point occurred to me, we discussed in the morning... saying that we had come to the point where when we see... the observer is the observed then that is death, essentially... is what you said. Right?

K: Yes. 		博姆：我想起了一点，那就是在我们早上的讨论中 我们说我们已经深入到了这一点：即当我们看到 观察者就是被观之物时，那么从本质上来说，这就是死亡 你就是这样说的，对吗？

克：对。
3:37 B: Now, this raises a question... If the self is nothing but an image - right? then what is it that dies? If the image dies that's nothing - right? that's not death.

K: No, that's right. 		博姆：那么，这里就出现了一个问题 要是自我仅仅只是一个形象——对吧？ 那么那个死去的东西是什么呢？ 因为要是形象死去了，这并不算什么——对吗？ 这并不是死亡。

克：不是死亡，没错。
3:52 B: So, is there something real that dies? 博姆：所以，是不是有某个真实之物死去了？
3:55 K: There is biological death. 克：存在着生物学上的死亡。
3:57 B: We're not discussing that at the moment. 博姆：但我们现在讨论的并不是这个。
3:59 K: No. 克：对。
4:00 B: You were discussing some kind of death. 博姆：你在讨论某种特别的死亡。
4:03 K: When we were talking this morning... I was trying to point out that if there is no image at all... if there is no variety of images in my consciousness... I am dead, there is death! 克：在我们今天早上谈话的时候 我试图指出，那就是如果完全没有任何形象 如果我的意识中没有各种不同的形象 那么我就死了，会有一种死亡！
4:18 B: That's the point that's not clear. What is it that has died? Death implies something has died. 博姆：我就是不太清楚这一点。 那个死去的东西是什么？ 死亡意味着某个东西死去了。
4:23 K: Died? The images have died, 'me' is dead. 克：死去了？那些形象死去了，那个‘我’死去了。
4:26 B: But is that something… is that a genuine death... 博姆：但这是不是某种……它是不是一种真正的死亡
4:29 K: Ah, that's what I want to… ...of course. Is it a verbal comprehension? 克：啊，这就是我想要去…………当然了。 它是一种字面上的理解吗？
4:37 B: Yes. Or more deeply, is there something that has to die? I'm trying to say, something real.

S: Some thing. 		博姆：是的。或者说要深刻的多，是否存在着某个需要死去的东西？ 我试图去表达的是，某个真实的东西。

西恩博格：它是某个东西。
4:43 B: In other words, if an organism dies, I see that, up to a point... something real has died. 博姆：换句话说，如果一个有机体死亡了，我能看到它，即 某个真实之物死去了。
4:49 K: Yes, something real has died. 克：是的，某个真实之物死了。
4:51 B: But when the self dies... 博姆：然而当自我死去时
4:53 K: Ah, but I have accepted so far... the self has been an astonishingly real thing. 克：啊，但是我到目前为止，已经接受了 那个自我是一个异常真实的事物。
4:59 B: Yes. 博姆：是的。
5:01 K: You come along - you 3 come along - and tell me that... that image is fictitious, and I understand it... and I'm a little frightened that when... that dies, when there is no image... you follow? - there is an ending to something. 克：你们过来了——你们三个人过来了，然后告诉我说 形象是虚假的，而我理解了它 我稍微有点害怕：如果 形象死去了，如果没有了形象 你理解了吗？——那将会是某些事物的终结。
5:25 B: Yes, but what is it that ends? 博姆：是的，但是那个终结的事物是什么呢？
5:28 K: Ah, quite! What is it that ends? 克：啊，很好！那个结束的是什么？
5:34 B: Because is it something real that ends? Or you could say... an ending of an image is no ending at all, right? 博姆：是不是某个真实之物结束了？ 或者你可以说 形象的终结根本就不是终结，对吗？
5:39 K: At all. What? 克：根本不是。什么意思？
5:42 B: If it's only an image that ends, that's an image of ending. I'm trying to say that nothing much ends if it's only an image. 博姆：如果结束的只是一个形象，那么那个结束也是形象。 我试图表达的就是，要是它只是一个形象，那么就没有什么东西结束了。
5:48 K: Yes, that's what I want to get at. 克：是的，这就是我想要表达的意思。
5:50 B: You know what I mean? 博姆：你明白我的意思了？
5:52 K: If it's merely an ending of an image... 克：要是它仅仅只是某个形象的结束
5:55 S: Then there is nothing much.

K: There is nothing. 		西恩博格：那么就没有什么东西了。

克：没有东西了。
5:57 B: No, it's like turning off the television set. 博姆：没有东西了，这就是像是关掉了电视机一样。
5:59 K: Yes, that leaves me nothing. 克：是的，什么东西都没有留给我。
6:04 S: Is that what death is? 西恩博格：这就是死亡吗？
6:06 B: Is that what death is... or is there something deeper that dies? 博姆：这就是死亡吗 还是说死去的是某个更深层的东西？
6:10 K: Oh, very much deeper.

B: Something deeper dies. 		克：噢，它是更加深层的东西。

博姆：某种更深层的事物死去了。
6:12 K: Yes. 克：是的。
6:13 S: How about the image-making process? 西恩博格：那么那个形象制造的过程会怎样？
6:17 K: No. I would say... It's not the end of the image which is death... but something much deeper than that. 克：不。我想说 死亡并不指的是形象的终结 它是某种更为深刻的事物。
6:29 B: But it's still not the death of the organism. 博姆：但它仍旧不是有机体的死亡。
6:31 K: Still not the death of organism, of course, the organism... 克：仍旧不是有机体的死亡，当然了，那个有机体
6:35 B: ...will go on, up to a point. 博姆：……在一定程度上还是会继续下去。
6:37 K: Up to a point, yes. Till it's diseased... accident, old age, or senility and so on. But, death... is it the ending of the image... which is fairly simple and fairly... you know, acceptable and normal, but... 克：是的，在一定程度上……直到它患病 遭遇事故，年老，衰老等等为止。 但是，死亡 它难道就只是形象的终结吗？ 虽然这相当简单，相当 你知道的，很容易接受，很正常的结论，但是
7:04 K: ...logically, or even actually. But it's like... a very shallow pool. You have taken away the little water and there is nothing... but mud left behind. There is nothing. So, is there something much more?

S: That dies? 		克：……从逻辑上说，或者甚至从实际的角度来说。 可是这种说法就像是 一个非常浅的水塘。 你取走了那里面的一点点水，然后就没东西了 只留下了淤泥。其他就没东西了。 所以，是否存在着更多的东西？

西恩博格：更多死去的东西？
7:30 K: No. Not that dies, but the meaning of death. 克：不是。 不是指死去的东西，而是关于死亡的含义。
7:39 S: Is there something more than the image that dies... or does death have a meaning beyond the death of the image? 西恩博格：死去的是否不只有形象，而是有更多的东西 或者说，死亡的含义超出了仅仅只是形象的死去？
7:50 K: Of course, that's what we are asking. 克：当然了，这就是我们在问的东西。
7:52 S: That's the question. Is there something about death... that's bigger than the death of the image? 西恩博格：这就是问题所在。 关于死亡，是否存在着某种 远比形象的死亡更为广阔的东西？
7:56 K: Obviously. It must be. 克：很显然，它必定存在。
7:59 B: Will this include the death of the organism? 博姆：那是否也包括了有机体的死亡？
8:02 K: Yes. The death of the organism might go on... I mean, the organism might go on... but eventually come to an end. 克：是的。有机体的死亡或许还是会继续下去 我的意思是，有机体也许会继续下去 但是最终它也会结束。
8:09 B: But if we were to see what death means... as a whole, universally... then we would also see what the death of the organism means. 博姆：然而如果我们要去搞清楚死亡的含义 死亡作为一个整体，其普遍性的含义 那么我们同样也要弄清楚有机体死亡的含义。
8:18 K: Yes. 克：是的。
8:19 B: But is there some meaning also to the death of the self image... the same meaning? 博姆：然而是否存在着某种含义，它与自我形象的死亡 是一样的意思？
8:25 K: That's only, I should say, a very small part. 克：我想说，那也只是非常小的一部分。
8:29 B: That's very small.

S: Right. 		博姆：那是很小的一部分。

西恩博格：对。
8:30 K: That's a very, very small part. 克：那是非常非常小的一部分。
8:32 B: But then, one could think there might be... the death of the self-image, then there might be... a process or a structure... beyond the self-image that might die... and that creates the self-image. 博姆：那时，我们就可以认为，也许存在着 自我形象的死亡，然后 某个超越了自我形象的过程或者说结构 也许也会死亡 也就是那些创造出自我形象的东西。
8:45 K: Yes, that is thought. 克：是的，那就是思想。
8:46 B: That's thought. Are you discussing the death of thought? 博姆：那就是思想。你是不是在谈论思想的死亡？
8:49 K: Yes, that's only also again superficial. 克：是的，不过那同样也是肤浅的。
8:52 B: That's very small.

K: Very small. 		博姆：它也是很小的一部分。

克：很小的一部分。
8:54 B: And is there something beyond thought itself that should die? 博姆：那么是否存在着某种超过了思想本身的、死亡的事物？
8:56 K: That's what I want to get at. 克：这就是我想要去搞清楚的东西。
8:57 S: We're trying to get at the meaning of death. 西恩博格：我们正试着去搞清楚死亡的含义。
8:59 B: We're not quite clear. 博姆：我们对此还不是很清楚。
9:01 S: ...which is beyond the death of the self, thought or the image. 西恩博格：……不清楚那个超越了自我死亡、思想死亡或形象死亡的事物。
9:04 K: No, just look. The image dies. That's fairly simple. It's a very shallow affair.

B: Right. 		克：不，请注意。形象死去了。这是相当简单的。 这是一件非常肤浅表面的事情。

博姆：对。
9:14 K: Then there's the ending of thought... which is the ending… the dying to thought. 克：然后，还存在着思想的终结 它就是去结束……让思想死去。
9:18 B: You would say thought is deeper... than the image but still not very deep. 博姆：你可以说思想要比 形象更为深刻，但它仍旧不是很深刻的事物。
9:21 K: Not very deep. So... 克：不是很深刻。所以
9:24 K: We have removed the maker of image and the image itself. Now, is there something more? 克：我们已经移除掉了形象的制造者和形象本身。 那么，是否还存在着更多的东西？
9:34 B: In what sense something more? Something more that exists... or something more that has to die, or… 博姆：从哪种意义上来说的‘更多’？存在着更多的含义 还是存在着更多的需要死去的东西，还是
9:41 S: This is something creative that happens? 西恩博格：是不是会有某种创造性的事物发生？
9:43 K: No. We are going to find out. 克：不。我们要去发现它。
9:45 B: But I mean, your question is not clear... when you say 'Is there something more?' 博姆：但我的意思是，你的问题并不是很清楚 你问：‘是否存在更多的事物？’
9:49 K: Is there..? No. Is that all death? 克：是否存在……？不对。 这就是死亡的全部吗？
9:56 B: Oh, I see. Is that all that death is? 博姆：噢，我明白了。这就是死亡的全部含义吗？
9:59 K: Yes.

S: This is death. 		克：对。

西恩博格：这才是死亡。
10:02 K: No. No. I understand, image, maker of image. But that's a very shallow affair. 克：不，不。我已经明白了，关于形象以及形象的制造者。 但这是一件很表面的事情。
10:08 S: So then there is something else… 西恩博格：所以还有着一些其他东西
10:10 K: And then I say 'Is that all, is that the meaning of death?' 克：于是我说‘这就是全部了吗，这就是死亡的含义吗？’
10:16 S: I think, I'm getting with you... Is that the meaning of death only... in that little part. Is there a meaning that's bigger? 西恩博格：我想我跟上你了 死亡的含义仅仅是如此吗 它只是如此小的一个部分吗？是否还存在着某种更巨大的意义？
10:23 K: Death must have something enormously significant. 克：死亡必定有着某种无比巨大的意义。
10:26 S: Right. 西恩博格：是的。
10:27 B: You are saying death has a meaning... a significance for everything. For the whole of life.

K: Yes, whole of life. 		博姆：你在说死亡对于一切事物 对于整个生活而言，都具有一种意义与重要性。

克：是的，对于整个生活而言。
10:33 B: Now, first could you say why do you say it? In other words... it's not generally accepted if we're thinking of the viewer... that death is that sort of thing. In other words, the way we live now, death... 博姆：那么首先，你能否说一下为什么你要这么说？换句话说 如果我们考虑到观众的想法，他们通常并不会接受 死亡是那样的一种东西。 换句话说，就我们目前的生活方式来说，死亡它是
10:45 K: Is at the end. 克：是一个结束。
10:47 B: …at the end and you try to forget about it... and try to make it unobtrusive, and so on. 博姆：……是结束，而你会试图去忘记它 努力把它变得不引人注目，等等。
10:52 K: But if you, as you 3 have worked at it, pointed out... my life has been in a turmoil. And my life has been a constant conflict... anxiety, all the rest of it.

S: Right. 		克：但是如果你们，因为你们三个已经探究过它了，你们向我指出 我的生活一直处于混乱之中。 我的生活一直都是持续不断的冲突 焦虑，等等这些东西。

西恩博格：没错。
11:09 K: That's been my life. I've clung to the known... and therefore, death is the unknown. So, I am afraid of that. And we come along and say 'look, death is partly... the ending of the image, the maker of the image... and death must have much more... greater significance, than merely this, empty saucer'. 克：这就是我的生活。我执著于已知之物 所以，由于死亡是未知之物。因此，我害怕死亡。 然后我们出现了，说‘瞧，死亡的一部分就是 形象的终结，形象制造者的终结 并且死亡必然具有远远更为 巨大的意义，它不只是这么的肤浅空洞’。
11:38 B: If you could make more clear why it 'must' have. 博姆：你能不能更清楚地解释一下为什么它‘必然’会具有。
11:43 K: 'Why it must have'. Because... 克：‘为什么它必然会具有’。因为
11:49 S: Why must it? 西恩博格：为什么是‘必然’的？
11:53 K: Is life just a shallow, empty pool? Empty mud at the end of it? 克：生命仅仅是一个肤浅、空洞的水塘吗？ 最后空空如也，只剩下淤泥？
12:00 S: Well, why would you assume it's anything else? 西恩博格：那么，为什么你要假设它是其他东西呢？
12:03 K: I want to know. 克：这是我想要去知道的东西。
12:05 B: But, even if it's something else... we have to ask why is it that death... is the key to understanding that. 博姆：但即使它是某种其他东西 我们还是要问一下为什么这种死亡 是了解那个问题的关键。
12:13 K: Because it's the ending of everything. 克：因为死亡是一切事物的终结。
12:16 B: All right.

S: Every thing. 		博姆：好吧。

西恩博格：一切的事物。
12:20 K: Reality...

B: Yes. 		克：现实中的事物……

博姆：是的。
12:24 K: And all my concepts, images - end of all the memories. 克：以及我所有的概念、形象——结束所有的记忆。
12:34 B: But that's in the ending of thought, right? 博姆：但是这些都包含在思想的止息之中，对吗？
12:36 K: Ending of thought. And also it means, ending of time. 克：思想的止息。并且它也意味着时间的终止。
12:40 B: Ending of time. 博姆：时间的终止。
12:44 K: Time coming to a stop totally. And there is no future... in the sense of past meeting the present and carrying on. 克：时间完全停止了。 未来消失了 这里未来的意思是，过去影响到了现在，然后它继续向前。
12:58 B: Psychologically speaking. 博姆：这是从心理上而言的。
12:59 K: Yes, psychologically speaking, of course. 克：是的，从心理上来说，当然了。
13:02 B: Where we still admit the future and the past. 博姆：而对于未来和过去，我们还是承认其存在的。
13:04 K: Of course.

S: That's right, OK. 		克：当然了。

西恩博格：是的，很好。
13:07 K: Ending - psychological ending of everything. That's what death is. 克：结束——在心理上结束一切事物。 这就是死亡。
13:17 B: And when the organism dies then everything ends for that organism. 博姆：而当有机体死去后，那么对那个有机体来说，一切事物也就结束了。
13:23 K: Of course. When the organism, this organism dies, it's finished. 克：当然了。 当有机体，当这个生物体死去，那么一切就结束了。
13:33 S: Right. 西恩博格：是的。
13:34 K: But wait a minute. If I don't end the image... the stream of image-making goes on. 克：但是稍等一下。如果我不去结束那个形象 那么制造形象的河流就会继续流动下去
13:46 B: Well, I think it's not too clear where it goes on; in other people? or in... 博姆：呃，我想有一点不是很清楚，那就是它会去往哪里呢？ 流向其他人吗？还是
13:51 K: It manifests itself in other people. That is, I die. 克：它会在其他人身上显现出来。 也就是，我死了
13:57 S: Right, the organism. 西恩博格：是的，有机体死了。
13:59 K: I die, the organism dies, and at the last moment... I'm still with the image I have. 克：我死了，这个有机体死亡了，而在最后的时刻 我仍旧持有着我的那些形象。
14:08 B: Yes, so then what happens to that? 博姆：是的，所以那时会发生什么？
14:10 K: That's what I'm saying. That image... has its continuity with the other rest of the images... your image, my image.

S: Right. 		克：这就是我在说的。那个形象 凭借其他的形象而得以延续 你的形象，我的形象。

西恩博格：没错。
14:20 K: Your image is not different from mine. 克：你的形象与我的并没有什么不同。
14:22 S: Right. We share that. 西恩博格：是的。我们共享着它。
14:24 K: No, not share it, it's not different. 克：不，不是共享它，它并没有不同。
14:26 S: Right. 西恩博格：好吧。
14:28 K: It may have a little more frill, a little bit more colour... but essentially, the image, my image is your image. 克：它或许会多一点点无用的装饰，更多彩一点 但是本质上来说，那个形象，我的形象就是你的形象。
14:34 S: Right. 西恩博格：对。
14:36 K: Now, so there is this constant flow of image-making. 克：所以，存在着这种持续不断的‘制造形象’的流动。
14:42 B: Where does it take place? In people? 博姆：它是发生在哪里的？是发生在人们身上的吗？
14:45 K: It's there, it manifests itself in people. 克：它就在那里，并且在人们身上呈现出来。
14:49 B: Oh, you feel that it's broader... in some ways it's more general, more universal. 博姆：噢，你觉得它是更广阔的 在某种程度上，它是更为广泛，更为普遍的。
14:52 K: Yes, much more universal.

B: That's rather... 		克：是的，它远远更为普遍。

博姆：这非常
14:55 K: Eh? 克：嗯？
14:56 B: I say, it's rather strange, to think of that. 博姆：我是说，当你思考这种说法，你会感到非常奇怪。
14:59 K: Yes. 克：是的。
15:02 S: It's there. 西恩博格：它就在那里。
15:04 K: It's a... it's… 克：它是一条……它是
15:06 S: It's a river, yes, like a river, it's there. And it manifests itself in streams which we call people. 西恩博格：它是一条河流，是的，就像河流一般，它就在那里。 并且它会在我们称之为‘人类’的流动中显现出自己。
15:14 K: Manifest - no. That stream is the maker of images and images. 克：显现出……不是。那个河流就是形象的制造者和形象。
15:22 B: In other words, you're saying... the image does not originate only in one brain... but in some sense it's universal. 博姆：换句话说，你在说的是 那个形象并不只来源于某个大脑 而是从某种意义上来说，它是普遍性的。
15:28 K: Universal.

B: But that's not clear. You're not only saying that it's just the sum... of the effects of all the brains... but are you implying something more? 		克：普遍性的。

博姆：但这还是有点不太清楚。 你应该不只是说它是 所有大脑结果的总和吧 你是不是在暗示着更多的东西？
15:38 K: It's the effect of all the brains... and it manifests itself in people... as they're born; genes and all the rest of it. Now. Is that all? Does death leave me... Does death bring about this sense of... enormous, endless energy... which has no beginning and no end? Or is it just... I've got rid of my images and the image-maker is… I can stop it, it's fairly simple... It can be stopped, and yes. But I haven't touched much deeper things, there must be... life must have infinite depth. 克：它是所有大脑共同运作的结果 并且它在人们身上呈现出来 在人们出生的时候，基因等等这些东西。 那么 这就是全部了吗？ 死亡是否留给了我 死亡是否让我感觉到了 那种巨大的、无尽的能量 这种无始也无终的能量？ 或者说，它仅仅只是 我已摆脱掉了我的形象，而那个形象的制造者已经被 我可以停止它，这是相当简单的 它可以被终止，然后就这样了。 但是我还没有触及到更为深层的事物，一定存在着 生命必定具有着无限的深度。
16:48 B: Now, the death which opens that up. 博姆：而现在，死亡打开了这个深度。
16:51 K: Death opens that up. 克：死亡打开了它。
16:53 B: It's the death… but we say it's more than the death... of the image-making, this is what's not clear. Is there, I'm trying to say, something real... which is blocking that from realising itself? 博姆：是死亡……但是我们说它不只是 ‘制造形象’的结束，这就是不清楚的地方。 我想说的是，是否存在着某个真实的东西 它在阻碍着自身的了悟？
17:07 K: Yes, 'I' is blocking itself through image... and thought maker, the maker of images. 克：是的，是‘我’在阻碍着它自己，通过形象 通过思想的制造者，和形象的制造者来阻碍它自己。
17:13 S: That's what's blocking it though, the image-making... and thought-making is blocking the greater. 西恩博格：这就是阻碍它的东西，那种形象的制造 和思想的制造在阻碍着那个更大的东西。
17:18 K: Wait. Blocking that. 克：等一下。是阻碍它自己。
17:20 S: Blocking that, right. 西恩博格：阻碍它自己，对。
17:21 K: But there are still other blocks, deeper blocks. 克：但是还存在着一些其他的阻碍，更深层次的阻碍。
17:24 B: That's what I was trying to get at. That there are deeper blocks that are real. 博姆：这就是我想要去搞清楚的东西。 存在着一些更深层的阻碍，那些阻碍是真实的。
17:28 K: That are real. Now. 克：它们才是真实的。那么
17:31 B: And they really have to die.

K: That's just it. 		博姆：这些阻碍才真正需要死去。

克：正是如此。
17:34 S: Would that be like this stream that you're talking about? 西恩博格：它是不是就像你正在谈论的这条河流？
17:37 K: No, no. There is a stream of sorrow, isn't there? 克：不，不。存在着一条‘苦（sorrow）’的河流，不是吗？
17:43 B: In what sense? Is sorrow deeper than the image? 博姆：这是从什么意义上而言的？‘苦’难道比‘形象’更深刻吗？
17:46 K: Yes.

S: It is. 		克：是的。

西恩博格：它比形象更深刻。
17:48 B: That's important.

K: It is. 		博姆：这一点很重要。

克：它比形象更深刻。
17:50 S: You think so?

K: Don't you? 		西恩博格：你是这样认为的吗？

克：你难道不觉得是这样吗？
17:54 S: I do. I think... 西恩博格：我觉得也是。我认为
17:56 K: No, be careful sir. This is very serious, this thing. 克：不，先生，请仔细一点。这件事是非常严肃的。
17:59 S: That's right. 西恩博格：好的。
18:01 B: Would you say sorrow and suffering are the same... are just different words? 博姆：你是否觉得‘苦’和痛苦（suffering）是一样的 只是词语不同罢了？
18:05 K: Oh, different words - sorrow and suffering. 克：噢，只是词语不同——‘苦’和痛苦。
18:08 S: Deeper than this image-making is sorrow. 西恩博格：比那种形象制造更深层的就是‘苦’。
18:11 K: Isn't it? Man has lived with sorrow a million years. 克：难道不是吗？ 人类已经带着‘苦’生活了百万年。
18:19 B: Could we say a little more about sorrow. What is it? It's more than pain. 博姆：我们可不可以更多地来谈一下‘苦’。这个‘苦’是什么？ 它不只是烦恼痛苦。
18:24 K: Oh, much more than pain, much more than loss... much more than losing my son... and my parent or this or that.

S: It's deeper than that. 		克：噢，它远远超出了烦恼痛苦，远远超出了‘失去’ 远远超出了我失去了我的儿子 失去了我的父母，失去了这个或那个。

西恩博格：它要比这更深刻。
18:33 K: It's much deeper than that.

S: Right. 		克：它要比这深刻的多。

西恩博格：是的。
18:36 B: It goes beyond the image, beyond thought. 博姆：它超越了形象，超越了思想。
18:38 K: Of course. Beyond thought. 克：当然了。它超越了思想。
18:40 B: Oh. Beyond what we would ordinarily call feeling. 博姆：哦，它超过了我们通常所谓的‘感受’。
18:43 K: Of course. Feeling, thought. Now, can that end? 克：当然了。感受、思想。那么，它可以结束吗？
18:47 S: Let me, before you go on... Are you saying that the stream of sorrow... if I can be so naive, is a different... stream from the stream of image-making? If you had to say it's there, is it two different streams? 西恩博格：在你继续下去之前，我还想问一下 你是不是在说，那条‘苦’的河流 ——请谅解我如此幼稚—— 是另外一条与‘制造形象’河流所不同的河流？ 如果你说它存在于那里的话，那么它们是两条不同的河流吗？
19:03 K: No, it's part of the stream.

S: Part of the same stream. 		克：不，它是那条河流的一部分。

西恩博格：同一条河流的一部分。
19:06 K: But much deeper.

S: Much deeper. 		克：但是它要更深层。

西恩博格：更深层。
19:07 B: Are you saying then, there's a very deep stream... image-making is on the surface of this stream... the waves on the surface. 博姆：那么你是不是在说，那是一条很深的河流 ‘形象的制造’是这条河流的表层 只是河面上的波纹。
19:14 K: That's all. But we have been left with that... I want to penetrate.

B: Could you say... we've understood the waves on the surface of this stream... which we call image making.

K: Image-making. Right. 		克：是的。但是我们只停留于此了 而我想要深入下去。

博姆：你是不是说 我们已经了解了这条河流表面上的波纹 即我们称之为‘形象制造’的东西。

克：‘形象的制造’，是的。
19:23 B: And whatever disturbances is in 'sorrow'... comes out on the surface as image-making. 博姆：然而无论什么扰乱都是由‘苦’所引发的 它们作为‘形象的制造’而浮出水面。
19:28 K: That's right. 克：对。
19:28 S: So, now we have got to go deep sea diving, right? 西恩博格：所以，现在我们必须要潜入深海了，对吧？
19:32 K: River-diving. 克：是潜入河里。
19:38 B: But what is sorrow? 博姆：可是，什么是‘苦’呢？
19:41 K: You know, sir, there is universal sorrow. 克：你知道，先生，存在着普遍性的苦难。
19:46 B: Yes, let's try to make it clear. It's not merely... the sum of all the sorrow of different people? 博姆：是的，让我们把它澄清一下。它并不仅仅是 不同的人的所有苦难的总和？
19:54 K: No. It is this... Could we put it this way... the waves on the river... doesn't bring compassion or love. - compassion and love are the same... they're synonymous so we'll keep to the word 'compassion'. The waves don't bring this. What will? Without compassion human beings... as they are doing - they are destroying themselves. So, does compassion come... with the ending of sorrow... which is not the sorrow created by thought? 克：说的没错。它应该是 我们可不可以这样来说 河面上的波纹 并不能带来慈悲或爱。 ——慈悲和爱是一样的 它们是同义词，所以我们就用‘慈悲’这个词吧。 那些波纹并不能带来它。 那么什么才可以呢？没有了慈悲，人类 就会像现在这样去做——他们在摧毁着自己。 所以，慈悲是不是伴随着 ‘苦’的结束而出现的？ 但这种‘苦’并不是思想所制造的悲伤。
20:49 B: Yes. So, let's say in thought you have... sorrow for the self - right?

K: Yes, sorrow for the self. 		博姆：是的。所以，我们可以说，你的思想中有着 自我的悲伤——对吗？

克：是的，为自我而悲伤。
20:55 B: Which is self-pity, and now you say there's another sorrow... I think we haven't quite got hold of it. There's a deeper sorrow...

K: There's a deeper sorrow. 		博姆：那就是自怜，不过现在你说存在着另外一种悲伤 我想我们还没有充分理解它。 存在着一种更深刻的悲伤……

克：有着一种更深层的悲伤。
21:04 B: ...which is universal, not merely... the total sum but rather something universal. 博姆：……那种悲伤是普遍性的，它不仅仅是 人类悲伤的总和，而是某种普遍性的东西。
21:08 K: That's right.

S: Can we just say… Can we spell that out, go into that? 		克：没错。

西恩博格：我们能不能说 我们能否来阐明它，探究它？
21:15 K: Don't you know it?

S: Yes. 		克：你难道不知道它吗？

西恩博格：不知道。
21:18 K: Without my - I'm just asking - don't you know or are aware... of a much deeper sorrow... than the sorrow of thought, self-pity... the sorrow of the image. 克：要是没有我的——我只是问一下——你难道不知道，或者没有意识到 更深刻的悲伤吗 它要比思想的悲伤，自怜 和形象的悲伤更加深刻。
21:34 B: Does this sorrow have any content? To say it's sorrow for the fact that man... is in this state of affairs which he can't get out of. 博姆：这种悲伤是否具有任何内容？ 比如说，为这样的事实感到悲伤，即人类 处于这样的现状之中，却又无法摆脱它。
21:44 K: That's partly it. That means partly the sorrow of ignorance. 克：这是它的一部分。意思就是，对无知感到悲伤是它的一部分。
21:49 B: Yes. That man is ignorant and cannot get out of it. 博姆：是的。人类是无知的，并且他无法摆脱这种无知。
21:52 K: Cannot get out - you follow?

B: Right. Yes. 		克：无法挣脱它——你明白了吗？

博姆：对。明白了。
21:55 K: And that the perception of that sorrow is compassion. 克：而感受到这样的悲伤，就是慈悲。
22:00 S: Right. 西恩博格：没错。
22:01 B: All right, so the non-perception is sorrow then? 博姆：嗯，所以没有感知到这种悲伤就是‘苦’？
22:04 K: Yes, yes. Are we saying the same thing? 克：是的，是的。 我们在说的是同一个东西吗？
22:12 S: No, I don't think so. 西恩博格：不，我觉得不是。
22:14 K: Say, for instance, you see me in ignorance. 克：举个例子，比如说你看到了我的无知。
22:18 B: Or I see the whole mankind... 博姆：或者说我看到了全人类的
22:20 K: ...mankind in ignorance. And after living millennia, they are still ignorant... ignorant in the sense we are talking... that is, the maker of the image and all that. 克：……人类的无知。 在生活了几千年以后，人类依然无知 这里的无知是我们所谈论的那个意思 也就是形象的制造者，等等这些。
22:33 B: Now, let's say, that if my mind is really right, good, clear... that should have a deep effect on me? 博姆：所以，我们可以说，如果我的头脑是正确的、理智的、清晰的 它就会对我产生一种深刻的影响？
22:39 K: Yes.

B: Right? 		克：是的。

博姆：对吧？
22:40 K: Yes. 克：对。
22:41 S: What would have a deep effect? 西恩博格：什么东西会产生深刻的影响？
22:42 B: To see this tremendous ignorance... this tremendous destruction. 博姆：看到这种极大的无知 看到这种巨大的毁灭。
22:45 K: We are getting at it.

S: Right. 		克：我们开始理解它了。

西恩博格：是的。
22:47 K: We are getting it. 克：我们明白它了。
22:50 B: But then if I don't fully perceive... if I start to escape the perception of it... then I'm in it too?

K: Yes, you are in it too. 		博姆：但是，如果我没有充分地感知到它 如果我开始逃避对它的感知 那么我也是处于‘苦’之中的？

克：是的，你也是处于其中的。
23:01 B: But the feeling is still… That universal sorrow is still something... that I can feel, is that what you mean to say? 博姆：但是那种感觉仍旧 那种普遍性的悲伤仍旧是某种 我可以感受到的东西，这是你想要表达的意思吗？
23:12 K: Yes. 克：是的。
23:14 B: Although I am not very perceptive... as to what it means. 博姆：尽管我并不能准确地感知到 它的意思。
23:16 K: No, no. You can feel the sorrow of thought. 克：不，不。你能感觉到思想所带来的悲伤。
23:21 B: The sorrow of thought. But I can sense, or somehow be aware... of the universal sorrow.

K: Yes. You can. 		博姆：思想的悲伤。但是我可以感觉到，或者说多多少少觉察到 那种普遍性的悲伤。

克：是的。你可以。
23:28 S: You say the universal sorrow is there... 西恩博格：你说的是，那个普遍性的悲伤就在那里
23:30 K: You can feel it.

B: Feel it or sense it. 		克：你可以感受到它。

博姆：感受到它，或者感觉到它。
23:33 S: Right.

B: Right. 		西恩博格：是的。

博姆：对。
23:36 K: Sorrow of man living like this.

B: Is that the essence of it? 		克：对人类目前的生活方式感到悲伤。

博姆：这就是‘苦’的实质吗？
23:39 K: I'm just moving into it. Let's move in. 克：我正在深入它。让我们来深入它。
23:41 B: Yes. Is there more to it then?

K: Much more to it! 		博姆：好。那么它是不是还有更多的内容？

克：还有很多很多的内容！
23:44 B: Oh well, then perhaps we should try to bring that out. 博姆：哦，好吧，那么我们也许应该试着把它讲出来。
23:46 K: I am trying to.

S: Sorrow, yes. 		克：我正在努力。

西恩博格：阐明这个‘苦’，是的。
23:49 K: You see me. I live the ordinary life... image, sorrow, fear, anxiety, all that. I have the sorrow of self-pity, all that. And you who are 'enlightened' in quotes... look at me and say… Aren't you full of sorrow for me? Which is compassion. 克：你们看到了我。我过着普通人的生活 有着形象、悲伤、恐惧、焦虑等等这些东西。 我因为自怜等等这些东西而悲伤。 而你们是‘觉悟之人’——这个‘觉悟之人’是带引号的 看到我这样子，然后 你们难道没有为我而感到无比悲伤吗？而这就是慈悲。
24:17 B: I would say that is a kind of energy... which is tremendously aroused... because of this situation.

K: Yes. 		博姆：我想说这是一种能量 这股能量 在这种情况下被强烈地唤醒了。

克：是的。
24:23 B: Right?

K: Yes. 		博姆：对吗？

克：对。
24:25 B: But that, would you call it sorrow... or you'd call it compassion. 博姆：但是你会把它称之为‘悲伤’吗？ 还是你会把它称为慈悲？
24:29 K: Compassion, which is the outcome of sorrow. 克：它是慈悲，而慈悲是‘悲伤’的结果。
24:32 B: But have you felt sorrow first? Has the enlightened person... felt sorrow and then compassion? 博姆：但你是不是先感受到悲伤？ 觉悟之人是不是 感受到了悲伤，然后才是慈悲？
24:39 K: No. 克：不是。
24:40 S: Or the other way?

K: No, no - be careful, old boy. Go very carefully. You see, sir, you are saying that one must have... sorrow first to have compassion. 		西恩博格：还是说反过来？

克：不，不是——请认真仔细一点，老朋友。 要非常仔细小心地前进。 你瞧，先生，你在说的是，一个人必须要 先有悲伤，从而拥有慈悲。
24:57 B: I'm not, I am just exploring it. 博姆：我没有这么说，我只是在探索它。
24:59 K: Yes, we are exploring. Through sorrow you come to compassion. 克：是的，我们都在探索中。 经由悲伤你达到了慈悲。
25:03 B: That's what you seem to be saying. 博姆：这似乎就是你在说的东西。
25:05 K: Yes, I seem to be saying, which implies... that I must go through... all the horrors of mankind.

S: Experience. 		克：是的，我似乎在说，它暗示着 我必须要去经历 人类所有的那些恐怖可怕之物。

西恩博格：去经验。
25:14 K: In order.

S: Right. 		克：在秩序中去经历它们。

西恩博格：对。
25:17 K: No.

S: No? 		克：不对。

西恩博格：不对？
25:19 K: No!

B: But let's say... 		克：不对！

博姆：我们这样来说吧
25:21 K: That's the point, sir. - forgive me. 克：这个是问题的关键，先生。——请原谅我。
25:22 B: Let's say that the enlightened one... the enlightened man... sees this sorrow, sees this destruction... and he feels something - right? - he senses something... which is a tremendous energy...

K: Yes. 		博姆：我们这样来说吧，那个觉悟者 那个觉悟之人 他看到了这种‘苦’，这种毁灭 于是他感受到了一些东西——对吗？他感觉到了某个东西 那是一股巨大的能量……

克：是的。
25:34 B: ...we call it compassion. Now, he understands... that the people are in sorrow... 博姆：……我们把它称之为慈悲。这时，他明白了 人类正处于‘苦’之中
25:40 K: Of course! 克：当然了！
25:41 B: But he is not himself in sorrow.

K: That's right. 		博姆：但是他自己并没有‘苦’。

克：没错。
25:45 B: But he feels a tremendous energy to do something. 博姆：但是他感受到了一股巨大的能量，想要去做一些事情。
25:48 K: Yes. Tremendous energy of compassion. 克：是的。慈悲所带来的巨大能量。
25:51 B: Compassion. Feeling for them.

K: Compassion. 		博姆：慈悲。感同身受。

克：慈悲。
25:54 S: Would you then say that the enlightened man... perceives or is aware of the... I hate to use the word, inefficiency - but the conflict... he's not aware of sorrow, he's aware of the awkwardness... the blundering, the loss of life. 西恩博格：那么你是否会说，那就是这个觉悟之人 他看到或者觉察到了这种 ——我讨厌使用这个词——无能，那种冲突 他并没有感到‘苦’，他觉知到的是生命的艰难 生命的浮躁和损毁。
26:19 K: No, sir. Dr Shainberg, just listen. You have been through all this... suppose you have been through all this. 克：不，先生，西恩博格医生，请听好。 你已经历过了这一切 假设你已经经历过了所有这些。
26:30 S: Sorrow. 西恩博格：经历过了‘苦’。
26:33 K: Image, thought, the sorrow of thought, the fears, anxiety... and you say 'I have understood that. It's over in me'. But you have left very little, you have energy... but it's a very shallow business. And is life so shallow as all that? Or has it an immense depth? Depth is wrong word, but...

B: Has inwardness? 		克：形象、思想、思想的悲伤、恐惧、焦虑 然后你说‘我已经理解了它。它已经在我身上结束了’。 但是你却没剩下什么，你有一些能量 但那些都是非常肤浅的事情。 然而，生命是如这些事物般肤浅的东西吗？ 还是说它有着惊人的深度？ ‘深度’这个词用的不对，可是……

博姆：用‘灵性’？
27:07 K: Great inwardness. And to find that out... Don't you have to die to everything known? 克：巨大的灵性。 而要去发现这种灵性 你难道不是必须要让一切已知的事物死去吗？
27:27 B: Yes, but how does this relate to sorrow at the same time? 博姆：是的，但是这要如何在同一时间与‘苦’有所联系？
27:30 K: I am coming… You might feel… I am ignorant, I have my anxieties, all the rest of it. You are beyond it... you are on the other side of the stream as it were. Don't you have compassion? 克：我正要来谈这个……你也许感觉到了 我的无知，我有着自己的各种焦虑，等等这些东西。 而你已经脱离了它 你就好像是站在河流的彼岸。 你难道不会心生慈悲之情吗？
27:59 S: Yes, I do.

B: Yes. 		西恩博格：是的，我会。

博姆：会的。
28:04 K: Not up here. 克：不是这里产生的。
28:05 S: No, I know. But I see it and I... 西恩博格：不是这里，我知道。我看到了它，然后我
28:08 K: Compassion.

S: Yes. 		克：产生了慈悲之情。

西恩博格：是的。
28:12 K: Is that the result of the ending of sorrow, the universal sorrow? 克：它是不是悲伤——那种普遍性悲伤——结束后的产物？
28:18 B: What? The universal sorrow.

K: Universal sorrow. 		博姆：什么？那种普遍性的悲伤？

克：普遍性的悲伤。
28:20 B: Wait, you say the ending of sorrow. Now, you're talking about a person... who was is in sorrow to begin with. 博姆：等一下，你提到了悲伤的结束。 而你开始的时候，谈论的是一个 处在悲伤之中的人。
28:26 K: Yes. 克：是的。
28:27 B: And in him this universal sorrow ends. Is that what you're saying? 博姆：在这个人身上，这种普遍性的悲伤结束了。这是你在说的东西吗？
28:32 K: No. No, a little more than that. 克：不，不是，我在说的要比这更多一点。
28:34 B: More than that... but we have to go slowly, because if you say... the ending of universal sorrow, the thing that is puzzling... is to say it still exists.

K: What? 		博姆：比这更多 但是我们需要慢慢来，因为如果你说 普遍性的悲伤结束了 那么再说它仍旧存在着，这会令人不解。

克：什么意思？
28:43 B: You see, if the universal sorrow ends, then it's all gone. 博姆：你瞧，要是普遍性的悲伤结束了，那么所有的悲伤都没了。
28:47 K: Ah! It's still there, no. Of course. 克：啊！它仍旧在那里，没有消失。当然了。
28:49 B: You see there is a certain puzzle in language. In some sense the universal sorrow ends... but in another sense it persists. 博姆：你瞧，这里有着一种语言上的迷惑。 从某种意义上来说，普遍性的悲伤结束了 但是从另一种意义上来说，它仍然存在着。
28:56 K: Yes, that's right. 克：是的，没错。
28:58 B: But could we say that... if you have an insight into the essence of sorrow... universal sorrow - then in that sense... sorrow ends in that insight. Is that what you mean?

K: Yes, yes. 		博姆：所以我们是不是可以说 要是你洞察到了悲伤的本质 ——那种普遍性的悲伤，那么从这个意义上来讲 悲伤就在那种洞察中结束了。 这是你的意思吗？

克：是的，是的。
29:09 B: Although it's still there. 博姆：尽管它仍旧在那里。
29:10 K: Yes, although it still goes on. 克：是的，尽管它仍旧在继续着。
29:12 S: I've got a deeper question now. The question is... 西恩博格：我现在想问一个更深层次的问题。 这个问题就是
29:15 K: Ah, I don't think you have understood. 克：啊，我觉得你还没有理解。
29:17 S: I think I understood that one, but my question comes before... which is that, here is me. - the image-making has died. Right? That's the waves. Now, I come into the sorrow. 西恩博格：我想我已经理解了他说的东西，但我的问题是在这之前的 那就是，这里有一个‘我’ ——而那种形象的制造已经终止了。对吗？ 这些都是波纹。 现在，我进入到了悲伤之中。
29:36 K: You've lost the sorrow of thought. 克：你已经没有了思想的悲伤。
29:39 S: Right. The sorrow of thought has gone... but there's a deeper sorrow. 西恩博格：对。思想的悲伤已经消失了 但是还存在着一种更深层的悲伤。
29:43 K: Is there? Or you're assuming that there is a deeper sorrow. 克：有吗？还是说你在假设存在着一种更深层的悲伤。
29:48 S: I'm trying to understand what you are saying. 西恩博格：我正在试着理解你在说的东西。
29:50 K: Ah! No, no! I am saying... Is there compassion which is not related to thought... or is that compassion born of sorrow? 克：啊！不，不！我在说的是 是否存在着那种与思想无关的慈悲？ 还是说，那种慈悲是诞生于悲伤的？
30:13 S: Born of sorrow. 西恩博格：诞生于悲伤。
30:15 K: Born in the sense... when the sorrow ends there is compassion. 克：这里诞生的意思是 当悲伤结束时，就会有慈悲。
30:19 S: OK. That makes it a little clearer. When the sorrow of thought... 西恩博格：好的。这样说就稍微清楚了一点。 当思想的悲伤
30:29 K: Not personal sorrow.

S: No. 		克：不是那种个人的悲伤。

西恩博格：对。
30:31 K: Not the sorrow of thought. 克：不是思想的悲伤。
30:33 B: Not the sorrow of thought, but something deeper. 博姆：不是思想的悲伤，而是某种更深层的东西。
30:35 S: Something deeper. When that sorrow ends… 西恩博格：某种更深层的事物，当那种悲伤结束时
30:38 K: That's it. 克：正是如此。
30:40 S: When that sorrow ends then there is a birth... 西恩博格：当那种悲伤结束时，就会诞生出
30:44 B: ...of compassion, of energy. 博姆：……慈悲和能量。
30:48 K: Is there not a deeper sorrow than the sorrow of thought? 克：难道没有一种比思想的悲伤更为深刻的悲伤吗？
31:01 S: There's the sorrow, David was saying... the sorrow for ignorance is deeper than thought... The sorrow for the universal calamity... of mankind trapped in this sorrow. The sorrow of a continual repetition of wars... and history and poverty and people mistreating each other... that's a deeper sorrow.

K: I understand all that. 		西恩博格：存在着那种悲伤，大卫说过 那是对于无知感到悲伤，它要比思想的悲伤更深刻 那种对于人类普遍不幸的悲伤 即人类陷入于‘苦’之中。 对于持续不断反复发生的战争的悲伤 对于历史、贫穷，以及人类彼此虐待感到悲伤 这是一种更深层的悲伤。

克：我明白这一切。
31:32 S: That's deeper than the sorrow of thought. 西恩博格：这要比思想的悲伤更为深刻。
31:43 K: Can we ask this question, what is compassion? which is love... we're using that one word to cover a wide field. What is compassion? Can a man who is in sorrow, thought, image... can he have that? He can't. Absolutely he cannot. Right?

B: Yes. 		克：我们能否来问一下这个问题，什么是慈悲？ 慈悲就是爱 我们使用‘慈悲’这个词来涵盖更广泛的领域。 什么是慈悲？ 一个处于‘苦’、思想和形象之中的人 他会有慈悲吗？他不会。 他肯定不会有慈悲。对吧？

博姆：是的。
32:18 K: Now. When does that come into being? Without that, life has no meaning. You have left me without that. So, if all that you have taken away from me is... superficial sorrow - thought and image... and I feel there's something much more. 克：那么，慈悲是什么时候出现的呢？ 因为没有慈悲，生命就没有意义。 你们还没有给我慈悲，就离开了我。 所以，如果你们从我身上带走的所有东西只是 肤浅的悲伤——思想和形象 那么我会觉得还存在着某种比它更多的东西。
32:49 B: I mean, just doing that leaves something emptier… 博姆：我的意思是，如果只是做这些事的话，会让人更加空虚
32:53 K: Yes.

B: Meaningless. 		克：是的。

博姆：毫无意义。
32:55 K: Something much greater than this shallow little business. 克：某种远远要比这浅薄之事更加重大的东西。
33:03 B: When we have thought producing sorrow and self-pity... but also the realisation of the sorrow of mankind... could you say the energy... which is deeper is being in some way... 博姆：当我们的思想制造出了悲伤与自怜 并且同样也意识到了人类的‘苦’时 是不是可以说某种更深层的能量 正以某种方式在
33:15 K: Moved. 克：运动着。
33:16 B: Well, first of all in this sorrow... this energy is caught up in whirlpools. 博姆：嗯，首先，在那种悲伤中 这股能量受困于漩涡之中。
33:21 K: Yes, that's right, in a small field. 克：是的，没错，受困在一个很小的区域中。
33:24 B: It's deeper than thought but there is some sort of... very deep disturbance of the energy... 博姆：它要比思想更深层，但是存在着某种 非常深层的能量的扰乱
33:30 K: Yes. Quite right. 克：是的。完全正确。
33:31 B: ...which we call deep sorrow.

K: Deep sorrow. 		博姆：……我们将它称为深层的悲伤。

克：深层的悲伤。
33:36 B: Ultimately, its origin is the blockage in thought, isn't it? 博姆：最终，它的源头是思想中的某种阻塞，不是吗？
33:40 K: Yes. That is deep sorrow of mankind. 克：是的，这就是人类深层次的悲伤。
33:42 B: Yes. The deep sorrow of mankind. 博姆：是的。人类深层次的悲伤。
33:45 K: For centuries upon centuries, it's like... like a vast reservoir of sorrow. 克：历经无数个世纪，它就像是 一个巨大的储存‘苦’的水库。
33:52 B: It's sort of moving around in... in some way that's disorderly and... 博姆：它是某种 以杂乱无章的方式四处游走的事物
33:57 K: Yes. 克：是的。
34:00 B: ...and preventing clarity and so on, perpetuating ignorance. 博姆：……它阻碍了清明的心，等等，延续维持了无知。
34:04 K: Ignorance. Perpetuating ignorance, right. 克：无知。延续了无知，对。
34:07 B: Because, you see, if it were not for that... then man's natural capacity to learn... would solve all these problems. Is that possible?

K: That's right. 		博姆：因为你瞧，如果不是这样的话 那么人类天生的学习能力 就可以解决所有这些问题了。 这可能吗？

克：没错。
34:15 S: Right. 西恩博格：对。
34:17 K: Unless you 3 give me, or help me... or show me, or have an insight... into something much greater... I say 'Yes, this is very nice'... and I go off - you follow?

B: Yes. 		克：除非你们三个人能够给予我、帮助我 向我展示，或者让我洞察到 某种更加意义巨大的事物 否则我就只会说‘是的，这很棒’ 然后就离去了——你们理解了吗？

博姆：理解了。
34:39 K: What we're trying to do, as far as I can see, is to penetrate... into something beyond death.

B: Beyond death. 		克：就我所理解的来看，我们正在试图去深入到 某种超越死亡的事物中去。

博姆：超越死亡的。
34:50 K: Death, we say, is not only the ending... of the organism, but the ending... of all the content of the consciousness... and the consciousness which we know as it's now. 克：我们说了，死亡并不仅仅是 有机体的结束，而是去结束 所有意识的内容 ——我们现在所知道的那种意识。
35:05 B: Is it also the ending of sorrow? 博姆：它是否也是‘苦’的结束？
35:07 K: Ending of sorrow of that kind, of the... 克：那一类‘苦’的结束，也就是那种
35:10 B: Superficial.

K: ...the superficial kind. That's clear.

B: Yes. 		博姆：肤浅之物。

克：……那一类肤浅之物。 这是很明显的。

博姆：是的。
35:16 K: And a man who's gone through all that... he says 'that isn't good enough... you haven't given me the flower, the perfume. You've just given me the ashes of it'. And, now, we 3 are trying... to find out that which is beyond the ashes. 克：而一个已经经历过所有这些的人 他说‘这还不够好 你们还没有给予我那朵花，那种芬芳。 你们只是给了我它的灰烬’。 而现在，我们三个人正试图 去找出那个超越灰烬的事物。
35:37 S: Right. 西恩博格：是的。
35:39 B: You say, there is that which is beyond death. 博姆：你说，存在着某个超越死亡的事物。
35:42 K: Absolutely! 克：毫无疑问！
35:44 B: Would you say that is eternal or... 博姆：你会说那是永恒或者
35:47 K: I don't want to use those words. 克：我并不想使用这类词语。
35:49 B: No, but I mean in some sense beyond time. 博姆：不，我的意思是，从某种程度上来说，它是超越时间的。
35:52 K: Beyond time. 克：超越时间的。
35:53 B: Therefore 'eternal' is not the best word for it. 博姆：因此‘永恒’并不是适用于它的最佳词语。
35:56 K: Therefore, there is something beyond... this superficial death, a movement that has... no beginning and no ending.

B: But it's a movement. 		克：所以，存在着某种超越 这种肤浅死亡的事物，存在着一种运动 一种无始无终的运动。

博姆：但它是一种运动。
36:07 K: It's a movement. Movement, not in time. 克：它是一种运动。它是运动，但不是时间中的运动。
36:10 B: Not in time, but... 博姆：不是时间中的，那么
36:12 S: What's the difference between a movement in time... and a movement out of time? 西恩博格：时间中的运动 和脱离时间的运动有什么区别？
36:22 K: Sir, that which is constantly renewing... constantly - 'new' isn't the word... constantly fresh, flowering... endlessly flowering, that's timeless. This is all… flowering implies time. 克：先生，那是一种持续不断的更新 持续不断的——用‘新’这个字不适合 是持续不断的新生、绽放 永不停息地绽放，其中并没有时间。 就是这样……尽管绽放暗示了时间。
36:41 B: Yes, well, I think, we can see the point. 博姆：是的，嗯，我想我们能够明白其中的意思。
36:43 S: I think we get that. The feel of renewal in creation and... coming and going without transition... without duration, without linearity, that has... 西恩博格：我想我们已经理解它了。感觉就像是那种创造物的更新 它的来去并没有过渡阶段 没有持续时间，也不是线性的，它是
36:56 K: You see, let me come back to it in a different way. Being normally a fairly intelligent man... read various books, tried various meditations. - Zen, this and that and the other thing... at one glance I have an insight... into all that, at one glance, it's finished... I won't touch it! And it may be the ending of this image-making and all that. There a meditation must take place to delve, to have an insight... into something which the mind has never touched before. 克：你瞧，让我换个方式回过头来解释一下它。 我是一个普通人，一个相当聪慧的人 我阅读了各种书籍，尝试了各种冥想。 ——禅宗，这个、那个，或者其他什么东西 我看了一眼，我洞察到了 这一切，只需要看一眼，它就结束了 我不会再去碰它了！ 而这也许就是形象制造等等这些东西的结束。 那时必然会发生某种冥想，从而可以去深入，去洞察到 某种头脑从未触及过的事物。
37:54 B: But I mean, even if you do touch it, then it doesn't mean... the next time it will be known. 博姆：但我的意思是，即使你触及到它了，这也并不意味着 下一次你就能够知晓它。
38:02 K: Ah! It can never be known in the sense... 克：啊！从某种意义上来讲，它是永远无法被知晓的
38:04 B: It can never be known, it's always new in some sense. 博姆：它永远无法被知晓，从某种意义上来说，它一直都是全新的。
38:06 K: Yes, it's always new. It's not a memory stored up and altered... changed and call it 'new'. It has never been old. 克：是的，它总是新的。它并不是某种储存起来的记忆，加以改造 加以改变以后，再把它称之为‘新’的。它从来没有‘旧’过。
38:20 B: Yes. 博姆：是的。
38:21 K: I don't know if I can put it that way. 克：我不知道是不是可以这样来表述它。
38:23 B: I think I understand that. Could you say, like a mind that has never known sorrow? 博姆：我想我已经明白了。 你是不是可以说，那就像是一颗从来不知道‘苦’为何物的心灵？
38:30 K: Yes. 克：是的。
38:31 B: It might seem puzzling at first but it's a move... out of this state which has known sorrow... into a state which has not known sorrow. 博姆：也许起初的时候它看起来有点令人困惑，但它是一种运动 它脱离了那种知晓‘苦’的状态 进入到了那种不知‘苦’为何物的状态中。
38:40 K: Yes, that's right.

B: But there's no you, so... 		克：是的，没错。

博姆：但是其中是没有‘你’的，所以
38:43 K: That's right. 克：对。
38:44 S: Can we say it this way too... Could we say that it's an action... which is moving where there is no 'you'? 西恩博格：我们是不是也可以这样来说 我们能否说，它是一种行动 即一种运动，在那里没有‘你’？
38:53 K: You see, when you use the word 'action'... action means not in the future or in the past... action is the doing.

S: Yes. 		克：你瞧，当你使用‘行动’这个词语时 行动意味着不是在未来或者在过去 行动就是去做。

西恩博格：是的。
39:06 K: Most of our actions are the result of the cause... or the past, or according to a future - ideals and so on. 克：我们大多数的行动都是某个起因的结果 或者是过去的结果，或者是根据某个未来——理想，等等这些东西而来的。
39:14 S: This is not that.

K: That's not action. That's just conformity. 		西恩博格：但这种行动并非如此。

克：那些东西并不是行动。 它们只不过是遵从。
39:18 S: Right. No, I'm talking about a different kind of action. 西恩博格：对。不，我在谈论的是一种不同的行动。
39:21 K: So. No, I wouldn't… action implies... there are several things involved. To penetrate into this, the mind must be completely silent. 克：所以，不，我不会去……行动意味着 这其中牵涉到了几件事情。 要彻底深入它，头脑就必须完全寂静。
39:38 S: Right. 西恩博格：嗯。
39:39 K: Otherwise you are projecting something into it. 克：否则的话，你就会把一些东西投射到它身上。
39:43 S: Right. It's not projecting into anything. 西恩博格：对。它并没有在投射任何东西。
39:47 K: Absolute silence. And that silence is not the product of... control, wished for, premeditated, pre-determined. Therefore that silence is not brought about through will. 克：而是彻底的寂静。 而这种寂静并非是 控制、渴望、预先谋划和预先决定的产物。 因此那种寂静并不是通过意志而产生的。
40:07 B: Right. 博姆：是的。
40:09 K: Now, in that silence... there is the sense of... something beyond all time... all death, all thought. You follow? Something... Nothing! Not a thing - you understand? Nothing! And therefore, empty. And therefore, tremendous energy. 克：请注意，在那种寂静中 你会感觉到 某种超越所有时间的事物 超越所有死亡，所有思想的事物。你跟上了吗？某种 空无一物！ 它并不是一个东西——你理解了吗？空无一物！因此，它就是空。 因此，会有巨大的能量。
40:47 B: Is this…

S: Moving. 		博姆：它是否……

西恩博格：它是运动。
40:49 K: Energy. Leave it! Leave it! 克：能量。别去管运动了！别管运动了！
40:52 B: Is this also the source of compassion? 博姆：它是否也是慈悲的源头？
40:54 K: That's what I… That's it. 克：这就是我在……没错。
40:57 S: What do you mean by 'source'? 西恩博格：你说的‘源头’是什么意思？
40:58 B: Well, that in this energy is compassion... 博姆：呃，那就是这种能量中存在着慈悲
41:01 K: Yes, that's right.

S: In this energy... 		克：是的，没错。

西恩博格：在这种能量里
41:04 K: This energy is compassion.

B: Is compassion. 		克：这种能量就是慈悲。

博姆：它就是慈悲。
41:06 S: That's different.

K: Yes. Of course. 		西恩博格：这是有区别的。

克：是的，当然了。
41:09 S: This energy is compassion. that's different from saying 'the source'. 西恩博格：这种能量就是慈悲。 这和你说‘它是源头’是不一样的。
41:14 K: You see, and beyond that there is something more. 克：你瞧，还存在着某种更多的超越它的事物。
41:19 S: Beyond that?

K: Of course. 		西恩博格：超越它的事物？

克：这是理所当然的。
41:21 B: Well, why do you say 'of course'? What could it be that's more? 博姆：呃，为什么你会说它是‘理所当然’的？ 那个‘更多’的事物会是什么呢？
41:37 K: Sir, let's put it, approach it differently. Everything thought has created is not sacred, is not holy. 克：先生，让我们换个不同的方式来表述和处理它。 一切思想所制造的事物都不是宗教性的，不是神圣的。
41:49 B: Yes, because it's fragmented. 博姆：是的，因为它是支离破碎的。
41:51 K: Is fragmented, we know it, and putting up an image... and worshipping it is a creation of thought; made by the hand or by the mind, it's still an image. So, in that there is nothing sacred... because - as he pointed out... thought is fragmented, limited, finite... it's the product of memory and so on. 克：它是支离破碎的，我们知道它，然后建立了一个形象 并且去崇拜它，而它是思想的创造； 它是由双手或者头脑所造的，它仍旧是一个形象。 所以，在它之中没有任何神圣的东西 因为——就如博姆所指出的 思想是支离破碎的、局限的、有限的 它是记忆的产物，等等。
42:12 B: Is the sacred, therefore, that which is without limit? 博姆：所以说，那个神圣之物是没有局限的？
42:16 K: That's it. There is something beyond compassion... which is sacred. 克：对。 存在着某种超越慈悲的事物 它是神圣的。
42:23 B: Yes. Is it beyond movement? 博姆：嗯，那么它是超越运动的吗？
42:26 K: Sacred - you can't say movement, or non-movement. 克：它是神圣的——你不能说它是运动，或者非运动。
42:31 B: You can't say anything. 博姆：你无法作任何描述。
42:33 K: A living thing... You can only examine a dead thing. A living thing, you can't examine. What we are trying to do... is to examine that living thing which we call sacred... which is beyond compassion. 克：它是一个活跃变化的事物 你只能去检视一个‘死’的东西。 你是无法去检视一个‘活’的东西的。 而我们试图做的是 去检视那个我们称之为神圣的 那个超越慈悲的鲜活之物。
42:52 B: What is our relation to the sacred then? 博姆：那么我们与那个神圣之物的关系是什么呢？
42:57 K: To the man who is ignorant there is no relationship. Right? Which is true. To the man who has removed the image... all that, who is free of the image... and the image-maker, he's still… it has no meaning yet. Right? It has meaning only when he goes beyond everything, beyond... he dies to everything. Dying means, in the sense... never for a single second... accumulating anything psychologically. 克：对于无知之人来说，是不存在关系的。 对吗？这是确凿无疑的。 而对于那个已经消除了形象 等等这些东西的人，对于那个摆脱了形象 和形象制造者的人来说，他仍旧……那个神圣之物仍然是毫无意义的。 对吗？ 要神圣之物具有意义，人需要去超越一切事物，超越 他要让一切事物死去。 死亡的意思是，它的意义在于 任何一秒钟都永远不去 积累任何事物——从心理上而言。
43:50 S: Would you say that there is any - you asked the question... What is the relationship to the sacred? Is there ever a relationship to the sacred or is the sacred… 西恩博格：你会不会说存在着某种——你问了这个问题 即与神圣之物的关系是什么？ 是否和那神圣之物存在着一种关系，还是说那个神圣之物
44:01 K: No, he's asking something.

S: Yes. 		克：不，他在问另一些东西。

西恩博格：好吧。
44:04 K: He's asking, what is the relationship between... that which is sacred, holy, to reality. 克：他在问的是 那个宗教性的、神圣的东西和‘真实之物’有什么关系？
44:13 B: Yes, it's implicit, anyway. 博姆：是的，不管怎样，其中暗示了这层意思。
44:16 K: Eh?

B: I mean, that's implied. 		克：啊？

博姆：我的意思是，这就是其中暗示的东西。
44:18 K: Of course. We've talked about it, some time ago... this question, which is... reality which is the product of thought has no relationship... to that because thought is an empty... 克：当然了。 我们不久前曾经谈论过它 谈论过这个问题，即 作为思想产物的‘真实之物’和它是没有关系的 因为思想是一种空洞的
44:33 S: Right. 西恩博格：对。
44:34 K: ...little affair. That may have a relationship with this. 克：……卑微之物。那个东西也许会和它有某种关系。
44:38 B: In some way. 博姆：从某种程度上而言。
44:44 K: And the relationship comes through... insight, intelligence and compassion. 克：而那种关系是经由 洞察、智慧和慈悲而来的。
44:58 S: What is that relationship... What is intelligence, I suppose we're asking. 西恩博格：那种关系又是什么呢 什么是智慧？假如我们这样问的话。
45:06 K: Intelligence? What is intelligence? 克：智慧？什么是智慧？
45:10 S: How does intelligence act? 西恩博格：智慧是如何运作的？
45:13 K: Wait! Wait! You've had an insight into the image. You've had an insight into the movement of thought... movement of thought which is self-pity... creates sorrow and all that. You've had a real insight into it. Haven't you? It's not a verbal agreement or disagreement... or logical conclusion. You've had a real insight into that business. Into the waves of the river. Now, have you an insight also… isn't that insight intelligence? Which is not the intelligence of a clever man... we're not talking of that. So, if there is that, you've already got that intelligence. 克：等一下！等一下！你已经深入洞察过了形象。 你已经深入洞察了思想的运动 思想的运动也就是自怜 制造‘苦’，等等这些。 你已经真正洞察了它。不是吗？ 这并不是一种口头上的同意或者不同意 或者某种逻辑上的结论。 你已经真正洞察了这件事。 深入洞察了河面上的波纹。 现在，你是不是也洞察到了……这种洞察难道不就是智慧吗？ 它并不是某个聪明狡猾之人的智慧 我们在谈的并不是这个。 所以，要是有了这种洞察，那么你就已经拥有了那种智慧。
46:04 S: That's right. 西恩博格：嗯。
46:06 K: Now, move with that intelligence... which is not yours or mine, intelligence... not Dr. Shainberg's or K's, or somebody's... it's universal intelligence... global or cosmic intelligence - that insight. Now, move a step further into it.

S: Move with, yes. 		克：现在，请随着那种智慧流动 那种智慧并不是你的或者我的 它并不是西恩博格医生的智慧、克的智慧，或者其他人的智慧 它是普遍性的智慧 那种洞察，它是全世界的或者宇宙的智慧。 现在，请再前进一步。

西恩博格：前进，好的。
46:33 K: Have an insight into sorrow... which is not the sorrow of thought, all that... the enormous sorrow of mankind, of ignorance - you follow? And then out of that insight - compassion. Now, insight into compassion. Is compassion the end of all life, end of all death? It seems so because you have - you follow?- thrown away... mind has thrown away all the burden... which man has imposed upon himself. Right? So, you have that tremendous feeling... a tremendous thing inside you. Now, that compassion - delve into it. And there is something sacred... untouched by man - man in the sense, untouched by his mind... by his cravings, by his demands, by his prayers... by his everlasting chicanery, tricks. And that may be the origin of everything... which man has misused. You follow? Not that it exists in him because then we get lost. 克：那种对于‘苦’的洞察 ——这种‘苦’并不是思想的‘苦’，等等这些 而是全人类巨大的‘苦’，人类无知的‘苦’——你明白了吗？ 然后从那种洞察之中，就会产生慈悲。 然后，让我们深入洞察这种慈悲。 慈悲是否就是所有生命的终点，所有死亡的终点？ 它看起来是这样的，因为你已经——你跟上了吗？——抛弃掉了 头脑已经抛弃掉了所有的负担 那些人类强加于他身上的负担。对吗？ 所以，你已经有了这种无比强烈的感受 你的内心已经有了某个无比巨大的事物。 所以现在，去深入探究那种慈悲。 存在着某种未曾被人类所染指的神圣之物 ——这里的人类指的是，未曾被自己的头脑 渴望、需求、祈祷， 以及永无止息的狡辩和欺骗所染指的人们。 而那或许就是万物的源头 ——这个已被人类所滥用的源头。你们明白了吗？ 并不是说它存在于人身上，因为那样的话我们就迷失了。
48:21 B: If you say it's the origin of all matter, all nature? 博姆：你是不是说它就是所有物质，所有自然的源头？
48:25 K: Everything - of all matter, of all nature. 克：一切事物——包括了所有的物质和所有的自然。
48:27 B: Of all mankind. 博姆：包括整个人类。
48:29 K: Yes. That's right, sir. I'll stick by it. So, at the end of these dialogues... what have you, what has the viewer got? What has he captured? 克：是的。没错，先生。 我支持这个说法。 那么，在这些对话的最后 你们，那个观众得到了什么呢？ 他获得了些什么？
48:54 S: What would we hope he'd capture? Would you say what'd we hope... that he would capture, or what has he actually captured? 西恩博格：我们希望他能获得些什么？ 你在说的是，我们所希望 他能获得的东西，还是他真正能获得的东西？
49:02 K: What has he actually, not hope. What has he actually captured? Has his bowl filled? 克：是他真正获得的东西，而不是我们的希望。 他实际上获得了些什么？ 他的碗是否装满了？
49:14 S: Filled with the sacred. 西恩博格：装满了神圣之物。
49:17 K: Or will he say 'well, I've got a lot... of ashes left, very kind of you... but I can get that anywhere'. Any logical, rational human being will say... 'Yes, by discussing you can wipe out all this... and I am left with nothing'. 克：或者他说‘啊，我得到的是一大堆 剩下的灰烬，感谢你们的好意 但是我在任何地方都可以获得它’。 任何逻辑的、理性的人都会说 ‘是的，通过讨论，你们可以扫除掉这一切事物 然后剩下我一无所有’。
49:35 S: Or has he got… 西恩博格：还是说他已经获得了
49:37 K: Yes, that's what... He has come to you - I have come to you 3... wanting to find out... transforming my life... because I feel that is absolutely necessary. Not to - you know... get rid of my ambition, all the silly stuff... which mankind has collected. I empty myself of all that. I - please when I use the word 'I' it's not... 'I' can't empty itself, 'I' dies to all that. Have I got anything out of all this? Have you given me the perfume of that thing? 克：是的，这就是我想要 他过来找你们——我过来找你们三个人 想要去发现 去转变我的生活 因为我感到那是绝对必要的。 我不是为了——你们知道的 不是为了摆脱掉我的野心，摆脱所有那些 人类积聚起来的愚蠢之物。 我已经清空了我身上的这些东西。 我——请注意，当我使用‘我’这个字眼的时候，它并不是 ‘我’是不可能清空它自身的，‘我’也不可能让这一切死去。 我是否从这些讨论中获得了某些东西？ 你们是否给了我‘那个东西’的芬芳？
50:32 S: Can I give you the perfume? 西恩博格：我能够给你那种芬芳吗？
50:34 K: Or... Yes, sir, share it with me? 克：或者说 是的，先生，你能与我分享它吗？
50:42 S: I can share it with you. Has the viewer shared with us... 西恩博格：我可以和你分享它。 那个观众是否和我们分享了它
50:48 B: Yes. 博姆：是的。
50:49 S: ...the experience we've had being together. 西恩博格：……分享了我们这些人在一起时的感受体验。
50:51 K: Have you 2 shared this thing with this man? 克：你们两人是否与那个人分享了它？
50:54 S: Right. Have we shared this with this man? 西恩博格：对。我们是否与那个人分享了这个东西？
51:04 K: If not, then what? A clever discussion, dialogue, oh, that we are fed up! You can only share when you are really hungry... you follow? - burning with hunger. Otherwise you share words. So, I've come to the point... we've come to the point when we see... life has an extraordinary meaning. 克：要是没有，那么它会变成什么？ 一次聪明伶俐的讨论、对话，哦，我们早已厌烦这类东西了！ 只有当你真正饥渴的时候，你才能够去分享 你们明白了吗？饥渴难耐。 否则的话，你们只是分享了一些文字。 好了，我们已经探索到了这个要点 我们已经探讨到了这个程度，即我们看到了 生命所具有的非凡意义。
51:51 B: Let's say, it has a meaning far beyond what we usually think of. 博姆：我想说，它所具有的意义超过了我们通常所认为的。
51:55 K: Yes, this is so shallow and empty. 克：是的，我们通常所认为的意义是如此的肤浅和空洞。
51:57 B: Well, would you say the sacred is also life? 博姆：那么，你是否会说那个神圣之物同样也是生命？
52:00 K: Yes, that what I was getting at. Life is sacred.

B: And the sacred is life. 		克：是的，这就是我之前所要表达的意思。 生命是神圣的。

博姆：而那个神圣之物就是生命。
52:09 K: Yes.

S: And have we shared that? 		克：是的。

西恩博格：那么我们是否分享了它？
52:11 K: Have you shared that? So, we mustn't misuse life. 克：你们是否分享了它？ 因此，我们决不能去滥用生命。
52:21 B: Right. 博姆：是的。
52:23 K: You understand? We mustn't waste it because our life is so short. 克：你理解了吗？ 我们决不能去浪费它，因为我们的生命是如此短暂。
52:33 B: You mean, you feel, that each of our lives... has a part to play in this sacred... which you talk about.

K: What, sir? 		博姆：你的意思是，你觉得我们每个人的生命 都是在你所说的神圣中的起作用的一部分？

克：你说什么？先生。
52:40 B: Each of our lives has... an important part in some sense to play. 博姆：我们每个人的生命都是 重要的一部分，从某种意义上来说，它会起作用。
52:43 K: It's part… It's there! 克：它是一部分……它就在那里！
52:45 B: It's part of the whole... and that misusing it is.. Well, to use it rightly has a tremendous significance. 博姆：它是整体的一部分 然而对它的滥用则是 我想说，去正确地使用它具有极其重要的意义。
52:54 K: Yes. Quite right. But to accept it as a theory is as good as any other theory. 克：是的。完全正确。 但是如果你把它当成理论来接受的话，那么它和其他理论就没什么差别了。
53:06 S: There's something though… I feel troubled. Have we shared it? 西恩博格：可是，还是有一些东西 让我感到困惑。我们是否分享了它？
53:16 K: Yes, sir! 克：我们已经分享了，先生！
53:18 S: That burns, that question burns. Have we shared the sacred? 西恩博格：它在煎熬着我，这个问题在煎熬着我， 我们是否已经分享了那个神圣之物？
53:27 K: Which means, really, all these dialogues have been... a process of meditation. Not a clever argument. A real penetrating meditation... which brings insight into everything that's being said. 克：它其实意味着，所有这些对话都是 一个冥想的过程。 而不是一次聪明狡猾的争论。 它是真正具有洞察力的冥想 它使得人们能够深刻洞察到所有那些话语。
53:53 B: Oh, I should say that we've been doing that. 博姆：噢，我想说我们一直都在这么做。
53:56 K: I think that we've been doing that. 克：我认为我们一直都在做这件事。
53:57 S: We've been doing that. And have we shared that? 西恩博格：我们一直在做这件事。 那么我们是否已经分享了它？
54:02 B: With whom? Among ourselves?

S: With the viewer. 		博姆：和谁分享它？是我们三人之间的分享吗？

西恩博格：和观众分享。
54:05 B: Well, I should think...

K: Ah! 		博姆：呃，我认为……

克：啊！
54:07 B: ...that's the difficulty. 博姆：……这就是困难之处。
54:08 K: Are you considering the viewer or... there is no viewer at all? Are you speaking to the viewer... or only that thing in which the viewer... you and I, everything is? You understand what I'm saying? You've got two minutes more. 克：你是在考虑观众吗？还是说 根本就不存在观众？ 你是在和观众说话 还是说只存在‘那个事物’，在它之中有着观众 你、我和一切事物？ 你明白我在说的东西吗？ 你们还剩下两分钟了。
54:41 S: Well, how would you respond then to what David said... 'We've been in a meditation', you say and I say... 'We've been in a meditation'. How have we shared in our meditation? 西恩博格：呃，那么你会对大卫的说法作何反应呢？ 他说‘我们一直处于冥想之中’。你和我也说 ‘我们都处于某种冥想中’。 那么我们要如何在我们的冥想中去分享呢？
54:53 K: I mean, no. Has it been a meditation? 克：我的意思是，不，它是否已经成为了一种冥想？
54:57 S: Yes. 西恩博格：是的。
54:59 K: This dialogue. Meditation is not just an argument. 克：这些对话。 冥想并不是一种争论。
55:06 S: No, we've shared. I feel that. 西恩博格：它不是，我们已经分享了它。我觉得是这样的。
55:08 K: Seeing the truth of every statement. Or the falseness of every statement. Or seeing in the false, the truth. 克：去看到每一句陈述中的真理。 或者去看到每一句陈述中的错误。 或者在错误之中去看到真相。
55:17 S: Right. And aware in each of us and in all of us of the false... as it comes out and is clarified. 西恩博格：没错。 并且觉察到我们每一个人，我们所有人 所犯的错误，以及对错误的澄清。
55:23 K: See it all, and therefore... we are in a state of meditation. And whatever we say must then lead to that ultimate thing. Then you are not sharing. 克：去看清这一切，由此 我们便是处于一种冥想的状态中了。 然后我们所说的任何东西，都必定会导向那个终极的事物。 那时你们就不是在分享了。
55:42 S: Where are you? 西恩博格：那么你在哪里呢？
55:45 K: There is no sharing. We have got one moment. There is no sharing. It's only that. 克：那时就不存在分享了。我们已经没时间了。 没有分享了。只剩下‘那个东西’。
55:49 S: That. The act of meditation is that. 西恩博格：‘那个东西’。 冥想的行动就是‘那个东西’。
55:56 K: No. There is no... - there is only that. Don't... 克：不。并不存在……——只有‘那个东西’。请不要再
56:00 S: OK. 西恩博格：好吧。