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BR76D1 - 你是如何观察你的恐惧的？
第一次公开讨论
英国布洛克伍德公园
1976年8月31日



0:22 This is a kind of dialogue – dialogue being a conversation between two friends about something which they are deeply concerned with, and not a mere discussion of ideas, arguments, and so on. But this is a dialogue, so that we can converse together over something which we are deeply concerned with. 这是一场对话 ——对话是两个友人之间 对他们深切关心的事进行交谈， 不是单纯论及观念、论点等等， 而是一场对话，这样我们就可以一起 对我们都深切关心的事进行交谈了。
0:59 So, what would you like to have a dialogue about? And, I would suggest, if I may, that we confine ourselves – this is just a suggestion but you can do what you like – that we concern ourselves with the actual transformation of our own consciousness, how to do it, how is it possible, to go into it very, very deeply, in detail. Could we do that, this morning? Take one thing, like transformation of a human consciousness, which is the consciousness of the world. I hope you understand that, it’s the consciousness of the world. Each human being is, in essence, the totality of human experience, knowledge, misery, confusion, all that he is, of which we are, each one of us. So, if we can be deeply involved and committed, seriously, to this question: is it possible to bring about a deep, fundamental change in the psyche? Could we stick to that? Would you approve of that, or do you want to talk or have a dialogue about something else? You’re perfectly welcome to talk about anything you want. 那么，你们想谈些什么呢？ 如果可以的话，我会建议把话题集中一点 ——这只是个建议，你们也可以按自己的意愿来—— 我们可以关心一下 自身意识的真正转变， 这件事要怎么做，怎样才有可能， 非常深入和细致地去探究一下。 今天早上我们可以这么做吗？ 就拿一件事来讨论，比如一个人意识的转变， ——个人的意识就是全世界的意识。 我希望你们能理解这一点：个人的意识就是世界的意识。 每个人在本质上就是人类的经验、 知识、痛苦、困惑的总和， 这就是他的全部，也是我们每个人的现状。 因此，我们能否深切地关注 和认真地探究这个问题： 有没有可能给我们的心灵带来一场深刻的、根本的转变？ 我们能不能紧扣这个问题？你们是不是对此都赞同， 还是想探讨或者交谈些别的东西呢？ 非常欢迎大家来探讨你们想要讨论的任何内容。
2:53 Questioner: Sir, could we discuss the question of laughter in relation to transformation of human consciousness? 问：先生，我们能不能讨论一下开怀大笑 和人类意识转变之间的关系这个问题呢？
3:02 K: Discuss laughter. What place...? 克：讨论开怀大笑。……它有什么作用？
3:07 Q: In laughter, the mind is overcome and I’ve often observed that people who are said to be extremely spiritual seem to have great difficulty in experiencing the fullness of laughter. They only seem capable of intellectual laughter. Can we go into this? 问：在开怀大笑时，心就被征服了， 我常常观察到那些据称极具灵性的人 似乎都极难开怀畅笑。 他们似乎只会理性地笑。 我们能否探讨一下这个？
3:24 K: Yes. Do you want to discuss or go into this question of laughter? To laugh. Serious people seem to lose the capacity to laugh. That’s one question. Would you like any other question? 克：好的。你是想讨论或者探究一下开怀大笑这个问题吗？ 开怀大笑。 严肃的人似乎都丧失了开怀大笑的能力。 这是一个问题。你们还有其他问题吗？
3:44 Q: Sir, I think in the question of transforming man’s consciousness there’s a lot of delusions and one of them, I think, a crucial one, is not being able to distinguish between true and false morality. For instance, not being able to distinguish, say, between what it is to want and what it is to demand. 问：先生，我认为人类意识转变这个问题中 有着很多令人迷惑的地方，其中之一，我觉得也是最重要的， 就是无法分辨真正的美德和虚假的美德。 比如说，无法分辨 想要和需要之间的区别。
4:09 K: Between morality and truth. Is that it? 克：分辨美德和真理。是这个问题吗？
4:15 Q: Between true and false morality or is there true morality, at all? 问：分辨真正的和虚假的美德，或者究竟有没有真正的美德呢？
4:18 K: What is the place of morality – if I may put it…? I hope I’II put it correctly, if not, please correct me. What is the place of morality in investigating into what is truth? 克：美德处在什么位置 ——如果我可以这么问的话，但愿我问得正确， 如果不正确，请纠正我。 在探究何谓真理时，美德有着什么样的位置？
4:41 Q: Does morality exist? 问：美德存在吗？
4:44 Q: There’s certain things that stand in the way because... 问：有一些拦路的阻碍，因为
4:48 K: I understand. Yes. There is a lot of false morality, false assumptions, what it is to be moral; and when we wipe away all the false morality and there is true morality, what is its relationship to truth? Is that right? Right, sir? 克：我了解，是的。 有很多虚假的美德、 虚假的假设，关于美德是什么， 当去掉了所有虚假的美德，就会有真正的美德了， 那么美德和真理之间有什么关系？对吗？ 对吗，先生？
5:15 Q: Or perhaps... 问：或者也许
5:17 K: Yes, put it any way you like. Anything else? 克：是的，随你用什么方式表达。还有别的吗？
5:21 Q: Sir, can we go into the structure of thought, please? 问：先生，我们能不能探究一下思想的结构，可以吗？
5:25 K: Thought. Structure of thought. Just a minute, sir. There’s somebody else. 克：思想。 思想的结构。 请稍等一下，先生。还有别人要说。
5:41 Q: To be optimist or to be pessimist is it not also a movement of thinking? 问：做乐观主义者或悲观主义者，是不是也是思想的一种活动呢？
5:48 K: To be an optimist and a pessimist... To be an optimist or a pessimist, are they not both a process of thinking? Could we say, ‘Are they not both the two sides of the same coin?’ 克：做一个乐观主义者和一个悲观主义者 做一个乐观主义者或者一个悲观主义者， 两者不都是思想的过程吗？ 我们可不可以说，“两者不就是同一枚硬币的两面吗？”
6:17 Q: You have explained how the thinker and the thought are not separate and said that when we accept this a different creative process comes into being without a sense of ‘I.’ Can we know more of this process and what happens? 问：你解释过思想者和思想并不是分开的， 也说过当我们认可这点时， 一种截然不同的没有“自我感”的创造性过程就会出现。 我们能不能更多地了解一下这个过程以及其中所发生的事？
6:33 K: Yes. Now, can we stop there? Could we take these three or four things? That is, laughter – we seem to lose the capacity to laugh when we become so-called very spiritual, whatever that word may mean. Then there is the question of the structure of thought, the nature and the structure of thought, then there is that question of morality and what is its place or what is its relationship to truth and – what other question? – optimistic and pessimistic. So, shall we take one of these questions because all these questions are concerned with the actual transformation of consciousness, and your question too, which is, when the observer, the thinker is the thought, the analyser is the analysed, then, we said, all conflict comes to an end and, thereby, there is a totally different dimension of observation, or existence, or whatever you like to call it. Now, which of these would you like to take as one question, go into it, completely, to its very end, deeply, which of these questions do you want to take up? 克：好的。现在，我们能不能就此打住？ 我们能不能就讨论这三到四个问题呢？ 也就是，开怀大笑——我们似乎都丧失了开怀大笑的能力， 当我们变得所谓的“很有灵性”的时候， 无论“灵性”这个词到底是什么意思。 接着就是思想结构这个问题， 思想的本质及其结构； 然后是美德的问题， 它在真理之中所处的位置或者它和真理有什么关系； 然后还有什么问题？乐观主义和悲观主义。 那么，我们是否可以就拿其中一个问题来探讨， 因为所有这些问题都涉及到 意识的真正转变， 你的问题也一样，也就是，当观察者、 思考者就是思想，分析者就是被分析之物时， 然后，我们说过，所有的冲突都会终止， 因此就会有一种维度截然不同的观察 或者存在，或者你喜欢的任何称呼。 那么，你会选取这其中的哪一个问题 来彻底地探究，深入它的最尽头， 你们想要选取哪一个问题？
8:24 Q: The last question. 问：最后一个吧。
8:28 K: Laughter? Is that really a very serious question? 克：开怀大笑的问题吗？ 这真的是一个很严肃的问题吗？
8:40 Q: The last question.

K: To laugh? Oh, the last question, which is, the observer – I think it’s a good question, may we take that up? 		问：最后一个。

克：大笑？ 哦，最后一个，也就是观察者的问题， 我认为这是个很好的问题，我们可以来谈一下它吗？
8:55 Q: Yes. 问：可以。
9:00 K: The questioner asks, ‘When we realise, not verbally, actually, that the observer is the observed, the thinker is the thought, and the analyser is the analysed, when that actual fact takes place, then there is a different dimension because that ends conflict. Would you please go into that much more? Is that your question, sir? And you want to discuss that? 克：提问者问，当我们意识到 ——不是口头上，而是实际上——观察者就是所观之物， 思想者就是所思考之物，分析者就是所分析之物时， 当这个真实的事实发生时， 就会有一个不同的维度出现，因为这终结了冲突。 我们能不能对此作更深入的探究呢？ 这是不是你的问题 ，先生？你想讨论它吗？
9:39 Q: And what happens.

K: Yes, and what happens. 		问：以及所发生的事。

克：是的，以及所发生的事。
9:48 Q: Is this going to be discussed on a personal level, or an intellectual level? I don’t understand. 问：我们要从个人层面上去探讨， 还是从智性层面上去探讨？我不明白。
10:10 K: That’s what we are going into, sir. 克：那正是我们要探究的，先生。
10:12 Q: Are we going to tell each other of experiences when we’ve been in this? 问：当我们探究它时，我们要去分享彼此的经验吗？
10:16 K: No, this is not a confessional. This is not a group therapy. This is not exposing our personal experience to each other, because personally, if you want to do that you’re perfectly welcome but I won’t be here, because to me this is an absurd exhibitionism and all the things involved in it. I’ve been to some of them and I know what the game is. 克：不，这不是间忏悔室。这不是团体治疗， 也不是对彼此袒露个人的经验， 因为就个人而言，如果你想这么做的话， 你大可如此，但是我不会参与， 因为在我看来，这是种荒唐的表现癖， 所有这类东西都牵扯其中。 我曾经参加过其中的一些，我很清楚这些把戏。
10:46 So, if we may, may we discuss this question? 因此，如果可以的话，我们可以讨论这个问题吗？
10:51 Q: I think the question is important but it’s a bit of a joke to work at that level when the personal foundation isn’t laid. I feel we’re taking something and examining it in a limited way... 问：我认为这个问题很重要，但是有点像个笑话， 我们个人的基础都还未奠定时，却要在那个层面上去探究。 我觉得我们在以一种很局限的方式去探究和检视某个问题
11:17 K: We are going to go into all that, madam, just, please, that question will answer, I think, most of our problems if we can go into this really with attention, deeply. Please, this is worthwhile. So, let’s go into it. 克：这些我们都会探究的，女士， 请听好，我认为回答了这个问题也就回答了我们大多数的问题， 如果我们能真正带着关注，很深入地探究这个问题的话。 恳请你们，这件事很值得一做。因此，就让我们来探讨它吧。
11:34 First of all, we are clear about the question, aren’t we? That is, the observer is the observed, and the thinker is the thought, and so on, when that actually takes place, not as a theory, not as a verbal assertion, but as an actual fact, then what comes into being, and what happens when there is no conflict, whatsoever? Now, we are going to discuss this, go into it. 首先，我们都很清楚这个问题了，对吗？ 也就是，观察者就是所观之物， 思想者就是思想，等等， 当这件事实际发生时， 不是作为理论，不是口头上的断言，而是作为一个实际发生的事实， 那么会出现什么， 当没有了任何冲突时，会发生什么？ 现在，我们这就来讨论它，探究它。
12:17 First of all, let’s forget the observer is the observed – put that aside, but take the fact, which is, we know we are in conflict, most of us are in conflict, most of us are in confusion, most of us have this constant inward struggle. Right? That’s a fact, isn’t it? Could we start from there? This contradiction, this conflict, this sense of constant inward battle that’s going on in each human being has its outward expression in violence, in hate, in this lack of a sense of fulfilment and, therefore, deeper antagonism, all that follows. Right? So, where there is division in oneself, there must be deep-rooted conflict, as between nations, as between classes, as between the dark people and the light people, the black people and the purple people, and so on. So, wherever there is division, there must be conflict. That’s a law. It can’t be helped. Isn’t that so? Do we see that, first? Realise it, not, the speaker may describe it and you might translate what is the described, into an idea and accept the idea. You see the difference? Please, this is important. Give a little attention, please. 首先，让我们忘了观察者就是所观之物， 将这一切弃置一边，而是去看事实，也就是， 我们都知道自己处在冲突中，我们大多数人都处在冲突中， 我们大多数人都处在混乱之中， 我们大多数人内心都有着这种不断的挣扎。 对吗？这是个事实，不是吗？我们能从这里开始吗？ 这种矛盾，这种冲突， 这种内心不断的挣扎感一直在每个人的内心进行着， 外在表现为暴力、仇恨， 表现为缺乏满足感， 因此就会导致内心更深的对抗，以及随之而来的一切，对吗？ 因此，只要我们内心存在分裂， 就必定会有根深蒂固的冲突，就像国与国之间， 阶级与阶级之间，深色人种与浅色人种之间， 黑人与紫红肤色的人之间，等等。 因此，有分裂的地方，就必定会有冲突。 这是个铁律，无法避免。 难道不是这样？首先，我们看到了这点吗？ 请认识到这一点，而不是讲话者描述它， 然后你把讲话者的描述诠释成一种观念， 接着再接纳这种观念。你明白其中的区别吗？ 恳请你们，这很重要。请对此稍微关注一下。
14:20 We realise there is inward conflict and that inward conflict must, invariably, express outwardly – outwardly in relationship with each other, outwardly in violence, in wanting to hurt people, in wanting to defend oneself against somebody, we and they, and all the rest of it. Now, when you hear that, is it an idea, or is it a fact? You understand my question? Do you translate what you hear into an idea and then accept the idea, or do you actually see your own conflict and the result of that conflict? You understand? 我们意识到了内心存在冲突， 而这种内在的冲突必定会表现在外部 ——与他人的外在关系、 外在的暴力之中，想要伤害他人， 想要保卫自己不受他人伤害， 分成我们和他们，等等这一切。 那么，当你听这些时，这是种观念，还是个事实？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 你会不会将你所听到的诠释为一种观念， 然后接受这种观念， 还是你真实地看到了自身的冲突 以及这种冲突所带来的后果呢？你明白吗？
15:17 Q: Sir, the problem is that if I look at the conflict it seems to disappear 问：先生，问题是如果我看着冲突，它似乎就消失了。
15:23 K: Wait, I’m coming to that. First, do we realise it? 克：等一下，我会谈到那个的。首先，我们意识到了这点吗？
15:28 Q: But, for me, I can only realise it, intellectually. 问：但是，对我而言，我只能从智性上意识到这一点。
15:32 K: That is ideationally. That’s what I’m trying to point out. Our conditioning is, or our tradition is to translate what we hear into an idea, into a concept, into a formula, and live or accept that formula, which prevents us from actually seeing ‘what is.’ You understand? This is simple. Isn’t it? Say, for example, one is hurt from childhood – right? – hurt in so many ways. Does one realise, become aware of this hurt? Or you say, ‘Yes, it is pointed out that I’m hurt, therefore, I’m hurt.’ You understand? I wonder if you get this. This is very important because throughout the world, we translate the fact into an idea and escape through the idea and not face the fact. Right? So, what is it you are doing now when you hear that you are in conflict and being in conflict, the outward result is violence, brutality and all the rest of it – is that a fact, or is it a conclusion which you will accept? That’s clear, isn’t it, from what I am saying? Now, which is it for you? This is very important because if it is an idea, then we are lost – your idea and my idea. But if we can face the fact, then it is something entirely different. Then each one of us has a communication, then. We are dealing with facts, not with ideas. 克：那是从概念上。 这正是我想指出的。 我们的局限就在于，或者我们的传统就是 把我们所听到的诠释成为一种观念、一种概念、一种准则， 然后实践或者接受那个准则， 而这阻碍了我们去真正看到“此刻如何”。 你明白吗？这很简单，不是吗？ 举个例子，比如你从小就受到了伤害——对吗？—— 各方面的伤害。 你是否意识到了、觉知到了这种伤害？ 还是你会说，“是的，有人指出来我受到了伤害， 因此我受伤了。”你明白吗？ 我不知道你们是不是明白了这点。 这很重要，因为 遍及整个世界，我们都在将事实诠释成某种观念， 然后借由观念逃离开而不是面对事实。 对吗？ 因此，现在你在做什么 ——当你听到你处在冲突之中， 而内心处在这种冲突中时，外在的产物就是暴力、 残忍及其那一切 ——这是个事实，还是一个你会接受的结论呢？ 从我所说的这些，这点是很清楚的，不是吗？ 那么，对你而言，是哪种呢？ 这很重要，因为如果这只是个观念，那么我们就会不知所措 ——你的观念以及我的观念。 但是如果我们能面对事实，那么这就是截然不同的事了。 然后我们每个人之间都有了一种交流。 我们正在处理事实，而不是各种观念。
17:48 Now, if that is so, if you really see, for yourself, that being in conflict, in oneself, you’re bound to create conflict, outwardly – bound to. Right? Now, when you realise that, what has brought about this conflict, inwardly? You understand? There’re several factors involved in this. There is a whole group of people who say, ‘Change the environment, change the social structure, through revolution, through blood, through any way, change it, and that will change man.’ You understand this? This is a Communist theory, this is the materialistic theory: change the environment – the Socialist theory – change the environment, the social structure, through legislation, through Parliament, through careful analysis and so on, or through revolution, physical revolution, change the environment, the structure of society, then that will change man. Then he will be loving, he will be kind, he will not have conflict, he’ll be a beautiful human being. And they have tried this umpteen times in different ways: the Communists have done it, they have not succeeded in making man different. The whole Christian world has postponed the change of man into something else, as the Hindus and so on. So, the fact is we are in conflict, human beings. And the fact is, out of that inward conflict, psychological conflict, he must produce outward conflict. It can’t be helped. 现在，如果是这样的话，如果你自己真的看到了 如果你内心处在冲突之中的话， 那么你就必定会制造外部的冲突——必定会。 对吗？ 那么，当你意识到这点后，又是什么引起了这种内在的冲突？ 你明白吗？有几个因素牵涉其中。 有一整群人，他们说， “改变环境，改变社会结构 ——经由革命，经由流血，经由任何方法，改变它， 而这将会改变人类。”——你明白吗？ 这是共产主义的理论，是唯物主义的理论： 改变外在的环境——这是社会主义的理念—— 改变外在的环境、社会结构 ——通过立法，通过议会， 通过仔细的分析等等， 或者通过革命，外在的革命，改变外在环境、 社会结构，然后就会改变全人类。 然后人类就会变得有爱，变得友善， 他的内心不再有冲突，他会是一个很美好的人。 他们无数次以不同的方式这么试过了： 共产主义者这么做过， 但他们并没有让人类变得不同。 整个基督教一直都在拖延人类转变成 别的样子，就像印度教一样，等等。 因此，事实就是我们处在冲突中，人类处在冲突之中。 这也是事实：由于内在的冲突、心理上的冲突， 我们必定会制造外部的冲突，这无可避免。
20:01 Q: Sir, if it’s a law of nature then there’s nothing to worry about. It seems as though this is a violent gathering, we’re violent, that’s the law, that’s the facts, we might as well go home. 问：先生，如果这是个自然规律，那也就没什么好担忧的了。 听起来这似乎是一场暴力的聚会，我们都很暴力， 既然这是个规律，这是事实，那么我们干脆就各回各家算了。
20:11 K: I haven’t said... Sir, I’m just pointing out, sir. Go slow. Have a little patience, sir. I’m showing, pointing out something. That is, if there is conflict, inwardly, there must be conflict, outwardly. Now, if a man is concerned seriously with the ending of conflict both outwardly and inwardly, we must find out why this conflict exists. You understand? This is simple. Why does it exist? Why is there this contradiction in human beings: say one thing, do another, think one thing and act another – you follow? – why do human beings have this division in themselves? You understand my question? Why? 克：我还没说完……先生，我正要指出来，先生。 慢点来，请耐心点，先生。 我正在说明、指出事实。 也就是，如果存在内在的冲突， 那么就必定会有外部的冲突。 那么，如果我们真的很关心终结冲突 ——外部以及内在的冲突， 那么，我们就必须探明为何这种冲突会存在。 你明白吗？这很简单。 为什么会有这种冲突？ 为什么人类的内心会有这种矛盾： 说一套，做一套，想一套，做一套 ——你跟上了吗？——为什么人类内心会有这种分裂？ 你明白我的问题吗？为什么？
21:19 One of the reasons is having ideals. That is, the idea which is opposite of ‘what is,’ what actually is, project through thought an idea, an ideal, so there is a contradiction between ‘what is’ and ‘what should be.’ That’s one of the factors of this conflict. Then the other factor is, we do not know what to do with ‘what is,’ how to deal with it, therefore, we use conclusions hoping thereby to alter ‘what is.’ That’s the other reason. And inwardly, also, there are contradictory desires – right? – I want one thing and I don’t want another thing. I want to be peaceful and yet there is violence in me. 原因之一就是我们持有各种理想。 也就是，观念是“现状”以及实际情况的对立面， 经由思想投射为一种观念、一个理想， 因此在“现状”和“应该怎样”之间存在一种矛盾， 这是这种冲突的因素之一。 然后另一个因素就是，我们不知道如何处理“现状”， 如何对待它， 于是，我们就动用各种结论，希望借此能改变“现状”。 这是另一个因素。 而我们内心也存在着相互矛盾的欲望，对吗？ 我想要这样东西，不想要另一样。 我想要和平，但内心却很暴力。
22:25 Q: Sir, these seem to be products of the separateness of the soul rather than the cause of why we’re in conflict. 问：先生，这些似乎是灵魂分裂性的产物， 而不是我们为何身处冲突的起因。
22:39 K: But you must find out the cause of conflict, mustn’t you, too? 克：但是你必须找出冲突的起因，不是吗？
22:43 Q: Yes, but these things seem to be more the products. 问：是的，但是这些似乎更多的是产物。
22:50 K: All right. If you say, these are the results, the symptoms, not the cause, what then is the cause? I’m coming... You people! Look, sir, either you want to go into this, very deeply or superficially. I would like to go into it very deeply, so please, have a little patience. 克：好的，如果你说这些是产物， 是症状，而不是起因， 那么起因是什么？ 我就要讲到……你们这些人啊！ 瞧，先生，要么你想很深入地探究，要么就是很肤浅地探究。 我想非常深入地探究， 因此恳请你，耐心点。
23:23 Q: Judging by outward appearances. One of the causes of conflict is judging by outward appearances. 问：依据外部表象来作判断。 冲突的起因之一就是依凭外部表象来作判断。
23:38 K: We’re asking, what is the fundamental cause of this conflict – fundamental cause, not the symptoms, we can explain a dozen symptoms, the cause of this enormous human struggle, inwardly. Wherever you go in the world – the East, Middle East, America, here, anywhere, there’s this constant battle going on and on and on. Right? Why? What’s the cause of it? 克：我们问的是，这种冲突的根本原因是什么， ——根本因素，而不是症状， 我们可以说出一打的症状， 可人类内心这种巨大挣扎的起因究竟是什么。 无论你去往世界的任何角落——东方、中东、 美国、这里，任何一方， 这种斗争都在不断地上演着。 对吗？为什么？它的起因是什么？
24:10 Q: ‘Me,’ which is trying to boost itself. 问：是“我”，这个“我”想提升自己。
24:14 Q: Social conditions. 问：是社会环境。
24:18 Q: Lack of security. 问：是缺乏安全感。
24:22 Q: Partly, an inability to respond adequately in a situation... 问：一部分是因为没有能力去充分回应所处的状况
24:32 K: One of the suggestions is the lack of security. Look at it, please. Just look at it. Lack of security, physical as well as psychological. Right? The lack of security. 克：有一个回答是“缺乏安全感”。 请你去观察，去看一看。 缺乏安全感——物质上的也包括心理上的，对吗？ 缺乏安全感。
24:53 Q: The fear of the non-existence of one’s being. 问：对自身不复存在的恐惧感。
25:05 K: Please, if you examine one thing at a time, not a dozen! I give up. We say one of the reasons of this conflict is that there is no security for us, deeply. That may be one of the basic reasons of conflict, the lack of security, both psychologically, as well as biologically, physically, as well as inwardly. You understand? Now, what do you mean by security? Food, clothes and shelter. Right? If that is not given to us, then there’s conflict because you have it and I haven’t got it. That’s one reason. The other is, psychologically, I want to be secure, inwardly. Right? In my relationship, in my belief, in my faith, in all my action – you follow? – I want to be completely secure. Now, is that possible? Or we’re asking a question which is totally wrong? Please, follow this. 克：恳请你们，每次只检视一件事就好，而不是一打！ 我放弃了。 我们说冲突的起因之一就是 我们内心深处缺乏安全感。 这也许也是冲突的根本因素之一， 缺乏安全感 ——心理上的以及生理上的安全感， 身体上以及内心的安全感。你明白吗？ 那么，你所说的“安全感”是什么意思？ 食物、衣服和住所，对吗？ 如果不给予我们这些，就产生有冲突， 因为你有这些而我还没有。这是一个因素。 还有就是心理上，我想要内心的安全感。 对吗？ 在我的关系之中，在我的信仰里，在我的信念里， 在我的一切行动中——你明白吗？——我想要彻底的安全感。 那么，这有可能吗？ 还是我们问了一个完全错误的问题？ 恳请你们跟上。
26:37 Psychologically, we want to be secure, having a relationship that’ll be completely secure, with my wife, with my husband, with my girl, or boy, we desire to be completely secure. Is that possible? Wait. Careful, now. Think about it a little bit. We say it is possible and we have made it possible, haven’t we? I am quite secure with my wife, and she’s quite secure with me, with the man. But inwardly, there is struggle going on. Now, this security we seek psychologically, is what? What is it we are seeking? Psychologically, to be secure with a person. You understand my question? I want to be secure with my wife, or with my girl. Why? 心理上，我们都想要安全感， 想拥有绝对安全的关系 ——同我的妻子，我的丈夫，我的女友或者男友， 我们渴求完全的安全感。这有可能吗？ 等一下，现在请小心，来思考一下。 我们说这是有可能的， 并且我们已经让它成为了可能，不是吗？ 与妻子在一起我感到相当安全，而她也感到十分安全——与我， 与这个男人在一起。 但是内心总有挣扎在上演。 那么，我们所追寻的这种心理上的安全感，到底是什么？ 我们所追寻的到底是什么？ 心理上，从某个人身上得到安全感。 你明白我的问题吗？ 我想从我的妻子或者女友那儿得到安全感。 为什么？
28:13 Q: Because without her, I’m lost.

K: Wait. So, what does that mean? Without her, I’m lost. What does that mean? 		问：因为没有她，我就会六神无主。

克：等一下。那么，这意味着什么？ 没有她，我就会六神无主。这意味着什么？
28:21 Q: I’m alone.

K: Which means what? Go on. 		问：我很孤单。

克：这是什么意思？请继续。
28:23 Q: Which means fear. 问：这意味着恐惧。
28:27 K: Don’t conclude immediately, go into it, sir. You say, ‘I’m lost.’ Why are you lost? Because you’re afraid to be alone. Isn’t it? Now, why? Do listen. Why are you frightened to be alone? 克：不要立刻下结论，去探究一下，先生。 你说，“我六神无主”——为什么你会六神无主？ 因为你害怕孤单。 不是吗？那么，为什么呢？ 请听好。 为什么你害怕孤单？
28:56 Q: I would say that man is frightened to be alone because he cannot orientate himself in existence. 问：我觉得人之所以害怕孤单 是因为他没有为自己找到生活的方向。
29:06 K: You haven’t answered my question, sir. Look... 克：你还没有回答我的问题，先生。瞧
29:10 Q: Because I cannot face myself. 问：因为我无法面对我自己。
29:13 K: We’ll come to that, presently. I’m asking you, why are you frightened to be alone? 克：我们一会儿就会讲到这点。 我是在问你，你为什么害怕孤单？
29:20 Q: Because you’re afraid you can’t cope with the world. 问：因为我害怕自己无法应付周围的世界。
29:23 K: Look into yourself before you answer it, sir, please. This is a serious thing we are talking about, not throwing off words. We’re asking each other, I want permanent relationship with another, and I hope to find it, and I’m saying, why do I ask for permanent relationship with another? You say, ‘I am frightened to be alone, to be insecure.’ So I’m using the other, the woman or the man, as a means to find my anchorage in that. Right? My anchorage in another, and I’m frightened if that anchorage is loosened. Right? Why? Penetrate a bit more deeply. 克：在回答之前请观察你自己，先生。 我们正在讨论的是一件很严肃的事， 不要随便就回答。 我们是在互相探问， 我想和他人有永久的关系， 并且我希望能找到这样的关系，而我问的是， 为什么我要寻求和他人保持永久的关系？ 你说，是因为我害怕孤单，害怕不安全。 因此我就要利用他人——这个女人或者男人 作为一种途径，来找到自己牢靠的归宿，对吗？ 在别人那里找到自己的停泊处， 我又很害怕这个停泊处会变得不牢固，对吗？ 为什么？ 请洞察得更深入些。
30:34 Q: Isn’t that just a drive? Isn’t it something which is simply built into me, like hunger? 问：那不就是一种本能吗？ 那不就是我与生俱来的东西，就像饥饿感一样吗？
30:44 K: Is it like hunger? The moment you give a simile like that, you get confused and then you go off to hunger. Find out why you want a relationship to be permanent, a relationship to be secure. Someone suggested because you’re frightened to be alone. Why are you frightened, what is involved in this fear? Please look into yourself before you answer it. 克：它像饥饿感一样吗？ 在你做这个类比的那一刻，你就弄混淆了， 接着你就会跑到饥饿感上去。 去弄清为什么你想要永久不变的关系， 一种安全的关系。 有人的看法是因为你害怕孤单。 为什么你会害怕孤单，这种恐惧之中涉及到了什么？ 在回答之前请观察一下自己。
31:28 Q: You’re always leaving yourself open to pain. If you control your life, you can control the amount of pleasure or at least try to avoid some pain. 问：你总是让自己对痛苦毫不设防。 如果你能控制自己的生活，你就能控制快乐的数量， 或者至少试着去避免一些痛苦。
31:38 K: Sir, look, sir, we’re asking something very simple: why is a human being frightened to be alone? Why are you frightened to be alone? 克：先生，瞧，先生，我们在问一件很简单的事： 为什么人会害怕孤单？ 为什么你害怕孤单？
32:00 Q: We’re habituated to company, in many ways. 问：我们习惯于有人陪伴，很多方面都是。
32:04 Q: When I’m with somebody, I feel I am something. and when I’m without this person, it could be a wife or friend, I feel nothing. And I do not like to feel nothing because it frightens me. 问：当我和别人在一起时，我感觉自己是个人物。 而当没有人相伴时——这个人可能是妻子或者朋友， 我感到自己一无所是。 而我不喜欢一无所是的感觉，因为这让我感到害怕。
32:23 K: Which means what, sir? 克：这意味着什么，先生？
32:26 Q: Insecurity.

K: Go slowly. Insecurity. You say, ‘I’m frightened of being insecure,’ so you exploit another to be secure, which you call ‘love.’ Please, remain with this fact, put your teeth into it to find out. If you can find this out, you will find a great many things. 		问：不安全感。

克：慢点来。不安全感。 你说，“我害怕不安全”， 因此你就利用他人来得到安全感，这就是你所谓的“爱”。 恳请你，和这个事实共处，投入全身心去发现真相。 如果你能发现这个真相，你就会发现很多事情的真相。
33:14 I want to be secure because without being secure – please listen – without being secure my brain can’t function properly. You understand? Efficiently. So, the brain demands security. So, I want security out of you, and so I depend on you. Right? I’m attached to you because I need to be secure, the brain demands it. And if anything happens in my relationship to you I get uncertain, I get frightened, I get jealous, I hate. Right? Doesn’t this happen to all of you? 我想要安全感是因为没有了安全感 ——请听好——没有了安全感，我的头脑就无法恰当地运作。 你明白吗？有效地运作。 因此，头脑需要安全感。 所以，我想要从你那儿得到安全感，也因此我就依赖你。 对吗？我依恋你，因为我需要安全感， 头脑需要安全感。 要是在你我的关系之中有任何的风吹草动， 我就会不安、害怕、嫉妒、怨恨。 对吗？这难道不是发生在你们所有人身上的事吗？
34:16 Q: If the person you love is static, then when they change, there’s fear. If you accept the change in them, if you accept the process in life, your love or your attachment can change with their changing. 问：如果你爱的人是稳固不变的，那么当他们有所改变时，你就会害怕。 如果你接受他们的改变，如果你接受生命的变化过程， 那么你的爱或者你的依恋就能随之改变。
34:32 K: Sir, you have not understood what I’ve said. 克：先生，你没有明白我所说的话。
34:34 Q: How do you know? 问：你怎么知道？
34:36 K: Because by what you’re saying, sir.

Q: Superficial. 		克：因为你刚才的那番话，先生。

问：（这么说）很草率。
34:39 K: Oh, well, I won’t discuss, sir – it becomes impossible. So, I’m frightened to be alone, frightened of losing my security, and I say, ‘Why, what is behind that fear?’ Is it I’m frightened to be lonely, to be alone, not to have something on which to depend because I cannot depend on myself, I am frightened of myself, I’m frightened to face myself. Right? I don’t know what I am, therefore I think I know what you are, therefore, I depend on you because I don’t know what I am, myself. 克：哦，好的，我不讨论这个，先生——这无法讨论。 因此，我很害怕孤单，害怕失去安全感， 接着我问，“为什么，这种恐惧的背后是什么？” 是不是因为我害怕孤单，害怕孤独， 害怕没有依靠， 是因为我无法依靠自己，我害怕自己， 我害怕面对自己，对吗？ 我不了解自己真实的样子，我以为我了解你真实的样子， 因此我就依赖你， 因为我不知道自己真实的样子。
35:50 Q: That’s incorrect. 问：这不正确。
36:03 K: Incorrect. Right, sir. 克：不正确，好的，先生。
36:05 Q: When I’m alone and I’m drifting around and I feel this insufficiency, this emptiness and I see people around, I’m walking around I see families and I’m not related to any of them, my perception is superficial, things are flitting in and out of my head I stay with this for some time and I want to break away from this. It’s then that I want someone to go to, to be stimulated. It just depends how long you go with it. 问：当我独自一人，我到处游荡， 我能体会到这种匮乏，这种空洞的滋味， 我看着四周人来人往，我漫无目的地走着， 瞧见一个个家庭，但他们却全都和我毫不相干， 我的感知很肤浅，所有的事情在我脑海中闪进又闪出， 我就这样待了一会儿，然后就想要从中摆脱出来。 就在此时我想去找某个人，想得到某种激励。 这只取决于你能和它共处多久。
36:42 K: Yes, sir, that is what we’re saying. I don’t see where we are disagreeing in this. My God! 克：是的，先生，这就是我们在说的。 我觉得对此我们的意见并无分歧。 老天！
36:58 Q: Sir, is it really possible to understand completely why we are in conflict, because we are ourselves in conflict. I see that somehow I’ve separated myself from myself but apart from that I can’t see why we are in conflict. 问：先生，这是不是真的可能——去彻底地了解 为何我们身处冲突之中，因为是我们自己处在冲突中。 我发现我不知怎的将自己分离了出来， 但除此以外，我看不出为何我们处在冲突之中。
37:17 K: We are seeing, sir, we are examining why we are in conflict. Look, I don’t know myself, about myself – all my structure, all my nature, my hurts, my ambitions, my greeds, my arrogance, and violence, all that. All that is ‘me.’ Right? And I have not examined all that. I’ve not gone into myself very, very deeply. So, I want security in spite of all that, in something – in furniture, in a house, in a belief, in a faith, in a wife or a husband. I want security. God! This seems so simple. Don’t you all want security? 克：我们正在看，先生，我们正在检视为何我们处在冲突之中。 瞧，我并不了解自己，不了解关于自己的一切—— 我的整个结构，所有的本质，我受过的伤害，我的抱负， 我的贪婪，我的自大和暴力，这一切。 这一切就是“我”，对吗？ 而我还没检视过这一切。 我还没有非常非常深入地探究过自己。 可我不管这些，我只想在某种事物之中找到安全感 ——在家具之中，在某种信仰、某个信念之中， 在妻子身上或者丈夫身上。我想得到安全感。 老天！这看上去如此简单。 难道你们不是都想得到安全感吗？
38:11 Q: Is there any evidence that such a thing as security exists? If one examines life, there is no such thing as security, in anything. 问：有什么可以证明安全感这样东西确实存在吗？ 如果我们审视生活，就会发现任何事物中都没有安全感这回事。
38:21 K: I haven’t understood, sir. 克：我没听明白，先生。
38:24 Q: Is there any evidence that security exists? 问：有什么可以证明确实有安全感存在吗？
38:27 K: I’m going to show you. It doesn’t exist. You don’t allow me, let me finish, go into this! See, you want to jump to conclusions. You don’t want to see the... That gentleman asked, please describe the nature and the structure of thought. He asked that question. The structure of thought. This is the structure of thought: that we want security because we know very well there is no security. You understand? An earthquake can take place tomorrow, we’ll all be wiped out or anything can happen. There is no such thing as security, psychologically. If we realise that once, very deeply, that there is no such thing as psychological security then we will not be in conflict. But we don’t realise it, we want security in somebody else – we want security physically: having a house, money, position, prestige. I may not have money, a house, but I want prestige, that’s my security. I want to be great, and I work to be great, I may be poor but I want to be a great man, a famous man. That’s my security, and the other says, ‘My security is in faith. I believe’ – and it may be neurotic – and all beliefs are neurotic. And there is security in neuroticism. 克：我会展示给你看。安全感是不存在的。 你不让我说完，请允许我说完，去探究一下！ 瞧，你只想直接跳转到结论，你并不想看 那位先生说，请讲一下 思想的本质和结构。 他问了这个问题。思想的结构。 这就是思想的结构： 我们之所以想要得到安全感 是因为我们很清楚根本不存在安全感。 你明白吗？明天有可能会发生地震， 我们全都会丧生或者什么事都有可能发生。 心理上并不存在安全感这样的东西。 一旦我们非常深刻地意识到这点： 并不存在心理上的安全感， 那么我们内心就不会处在冲突之中了。 但是我们并未意识到这点，我们想从别人身上得到安全感 ——我们需要物质上的安全，有房子， 有金钱、地位、声望。 我也许没有钱，没有房子，但是我却想要声望，这成了我的安全感。 我想变得伟大，我努力去变得伟大， 我也许很贫穷，但是我想成为伟人、名人，这是我的安全感所在， 而另一个人说，我的安全感来自于信仰。我有所信仰 ——也许这是神经质的——所有的信仰都是神经质的。 神经质之中存在着安全感。
40:20 So, man is seeking, all the time, security, and we never realise there is no such thing. Right? Because my wife may run away from me, but if she runs away I hate, I’m jealous, but I’m going to find another woman, or man, and I cling to that. So, this goes on all the time. So, I’m asking, why do human beings demand security knowing very well, deeply, inwardly, there is no such thing? Why has the world divided itself geographically, nationally, as Hindus, Buddhists, all the rest of it, why? Because they want security. It feels very secure if you’re an Englishman. 因此，人们一直都在追寻安全感， 而我们却从未意识到根本不存在这样东西。 对吗？ 因为我的妻子也许会离我而去， 如果她离我而去，我就会怨恨，我就会嫉妒， 但是我又打算去找别的女人或者男人， 然后再抓住不放。 因此，这会一直上演。 因此，我问，为什么人类需要安全感， 虽然他内心深处很清楚根本不存在这回事？ 为什么这个世界从地理上、国家上分割了它自己， 分裂为印度教徒、佛教徒等等，为什么？ 因为他们想要安全感。 如果你是个英国人，这会让你觉得很安全。
41:30 Q: They don’t really see. People here don’t really see. 问：他们没有真正地看到。这儿的人没有真正地看到。
41:34 K: That’s what I am saying, sir. 克：这就是我在说的，先生。
41:35 Q: It seems to me it’s this quality of seeing that we ought to talk about. 问：在我看来，这种品质的看，才是我们应该加以讨论的。
41:42 K: First, therefore, can we see, observe, that there is no security at all, psychologically, therefore, no attachment? It doesn’t mean promiscuity. It is impossible to be attached to a human being. What are you attached to when you’re attached to a human being? You’re attached to the image that you have created about that human being, not to the person but to the image that you have about her or him. Please, this is so obvious. 克：那么首先，我们能不能看到、观察到 根本没有安全感可言——心理上的安全感， 所以也就没有了依恋呢？ 这并不意味着要去乱交。 你是无法依附于某个人的。 在你依恋某个人时，你其实依恋的是什么？ 你其实依恋的是你为这个人制造出来的意象 ——不是这个人，而是你对她或者他持有的意象。 拜托，这相当明显。
42:35 Q: Sir, isn’t that seeking security a shift from the biologically inbuilt seeking? 问：先生，这种对安全感的追寻难道不是源自于 生理上与生俱来的追寻吗？
42:43 K: Biologically, I need security. Right? I need food, I need clothes, I need shelter, but that is made impossible by my desire to be secure, inwardly. Which is, I am a nationalist, I believe I’m a great Englishman, cut out every other… You follow? So, we divide the world and thereby destroy our own security. You don’t see all this. 克：生理上，我需要保障，对吗？ 我需要食物，我需要衣服，我需要住所， 但是渴求内在的安全让这一切变得不可能了。 也就是，我是一个国家主义者， 我自认是个了不起的英国人，排挤其他人——你跟上了吗？ 因此，我们分割了这个世界，因此而毁掉了我们自身的安全。 你没有看到这一切。
43:19 Q: It seems to be the contrary for me. I need to be insecure. 问：对我来说似乎正相反，我需要的是不安全。
43:23 K: No, sir. Look, sir, we say, physically you must have security. Right? 克：不，先生。瞧，先生， 我们说，身体上我们必须要安全，对吗？
43:29 Q: No, I don’t think so. When I feel insecure, I feel very happy. 问：不，我不这么认为。 当我感到不安全时，我会感到很愉快。
43:36 K: Mustn’t you have food and clothes and shelter? You have clothes, you have food. Millions of people haven’t got food, clothes. Why is it? 克：难道你不需要食物、衣服和住所吗？ 你有衣服穿，有东西吃。 上百万的人没有东西吃，没有衣服穿，这是为什么？
43:53 Q: When we’ve got nothing, we change our minds. 问：当我们一无所有时，我们才会转变我们的心灵。
43:57 K: That’s just what I’m saying, sir. Because psychologically we have established security in nationalities, in division, the biological, physical security is being denied. 克：那正是我说的意思，先生。 因为我们早已在心理上筑建了安全感 ——从国籍之中、分裂之中， 所以生理上、身体上的安全就被否定了。
44:14 This is… isn’t it? So, let’s proceed. Do we see, not as an idea, but as an actuality, that there is no psychological security? Or are you frightened of it? Frightened of this enormous fact? 是这样的，不是吗？因此，让我们继续。 我们能不能看到——不是作为一种观念，而是从事实上—— 看到根本不存在心理上的安全？ 还是你很害怕这一点？ 害怕这个惊人的事实？
44:41 Q: Couldn’t I get security out of myself, somehow? For instance, by knowing whatever happens... 问：我能不能从自己身上得到安全感——以某种方式？ 比如，通过知道无论发生什么
44:49 K: I’m showing it to you, sir, now. Please, we said there is no such thing as security, do you see that? Not as an idea, not as a conclusion, but an actuality, like the microphone. Do you see it? 克：我正在展示给你看，先生，现在。 恳请你，我们说过了不存在安全感这个东西，你看到这点了吗？ 不是作为一种观念、一个结论，而是作为一个事实看到了， 就像看到这个麦克风一样。你看到这点了吗？
45:08 Q: No, we don’t.

K: That’s just it. Why don’t you? 		问：没有，没有看到。

克：就是这样，为什么你没看到呢？
45:14 Q: (Inaudible) 问：（听不清）
45:52 K: We’re coming to that, sir, please. Would you please…? I’m asking, when we come to the point that there is no psychological security, you know, that’s a tremendous thing to observe and realise because then our whole activity changes. Do we realise it or is it an idea with which you’re going to be convinced? You understand my question? Why don’t you see it as a reality? It is a reality you are sitting there, and it’s a reality I’m sitting here. Why don’t we see it as actually as that? Is it part of our conditioning, part of fear – fear being, ‘My God, I’II lose my wife, I’II lose my friend,’ because in that person I have invested all my hope, my cravings, my demands, sexually and other things, and I suddenly realise there is no such thing as security. You know what it means? That’s freedom. And we don’t want freedom. We’d rather know the state of slavery than the state of freedom. 克：我们会讲到那点的，先生，别急。 可以吗？我在问， 当我们讲到不存在心理上的安全这点时， 你知道，这是需要你去观察和领会的一件了不起的事， 因为此后我们的整个行为都会有所转变。 我们是领悟到了这点，还是它只是个让你信服的观念呢？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 为什么你不去看这个真相？ 你坐在那儿，这是事实，我坐在这儿，这也是事实。 为什么我们不能像那样真实地看到这一点呢？ 这是不是我们所受局限的一部分，恐惧的一部分 ——害怕，“我的天，我会失去妻子，我会失去朋友”， 因为在这个人身上我投注了自己所有的希望， 我所有的渴望，我的需求——在性方面或者别的事上， 而突然之间我意识到根本不存在安全感。 你知道这意味着什么吗？ 这就是自由。而我们却不想要自由。 我们宁愿只知道奴役的状态也不愿了解自由是什么。
47:48 Right. So, let’s proceed. There it is. I do not see that there is no security. I want security, I depend on security in another because it gives me comfort, it gives me a sense of being together, I’m then not lost, I’m not afraid to be alone, then I am not lonely. For all these reasons I cling to you. And I call this whole process of relationship, ‘love.’ I’m not being cynical, please. And that’s our conflict: knowing deeply, inwardly, this fact and holding on to non-fact. Right? That’s our problem. Seeing something as being truth and holding on to something which is not truth. Now, how do you bring about the cessation of this division between this and that? You understand, now? That is, I observe very clearly that I need security because I’m so deeply uncertain in myself, I’m so lonely, I’m so lost, confused, and I cling to you. That’s one fact. That’s a fact, also. The other fact is you have heard somebody say, ‘There is no such thing as security, my friend,’ and also, you say, ‘By Jove, that is so,’ deeply, inwardly, you know it is so. So, there are these two facts. So, what will you do? How will you bridge these two? 对吧，那么，我们接着讲。 事实就在那儿，但我却看不到根本不存在安全感。 我想要安全感，我依赖从别人身上获得安全感， 因为这让我感到安慰，让我有一种共存感， 这样我就不会迷茫，不会害怕孤单，我就不会孤独了。 基于这些原因，我执着于你。 而我把关系中的这整个过程称之为“爱”。 拜托，我并不是在冷嘲热讽。 而这就是我们的冲突：内心深处明白这个事实 却抓着虚幻的东西不放，对吗？ 这就是我们的难题。 看到了真实的事物 却紧抓住不真实的事物不放。 那么，你要如何停止这种分裂 ——这两者之间的分裂？现在你明白了吗？ 也就是，我很清晰地看到我需要安全感， 因为我内心是如此深感不安， 我是如此孤独，不知所措，迷惑，所以我依恋你， 这是事实之一，这也是个事实。 另一个事实就是你听到有人说， “我的朋友，并不存在安全感这种东西”， 你也说，“老天，是这样的”， 内心里你也深知确实如此。 因此，存在着这两个事实。 因此，你会怎么做？你要如何为这两者搭起桥梁？
50:15 Q: I must look at my fear. 问：我必须观察我的恐惧。
50:19 K: That’s right. You must look at your fear. How do you look at your fear? We have come to that point, now. You see? That is, human beings are frightened. How do you observe that fact? 克：没错。你必须看着你的恐惧。 你会如何看着你的恐惧？ 现在，我们已经来到了这个点上，你明白吗？ 也就是，人们内心都很恐惧。 你要怎么观察这个事实呢？
50:48 Q: They laugh at it. They laugh to hide their fear. 问：他们会付之一笑。他们一笑置之来隐藏自己的恐惧。
50:56 K: Of course, that’s laughter. We laugh to hide our fear. Please, I’m asking you, without escaping, if you can, how do you observe your fear? 克：当然，那是一笑置之。我们一笑置之来隐藏自己的恐惧。 恳请你，我在问你，如果可以的话，请不要逃避， 你会怎么观察你的恐惧？
51:12 Q: Through relationship.

K: Through relationship. We have discovered, through relationship, that I’m frightened of losing, frightened. So, how do you look or observe, or are aware of that fear? 		问：通过关系。

克：通过关系。 我们通过关系，已经发现了 我害怕不知所措，很害怕。 因此，你要如何看或者观察，或者觉知这份恐惧？
51:34 Q: Can I observe the fear when I am the fear? 问：当我就是恐惧时，我还能观察这份恐惧吗？
51:37 K: Are you sure of that? Or it’s just an idea? 克：你确定是如此的吗？还是这只是个观念？
51:42 Q: I’m sure of that. 问：我确定是如此的。
51:46 K: Which is so. You’re sure of it. That means you are sure of something, it is not a fact. 克：是如此的，你对此很确信。 这意味着你确信某件事，但其实它对你并不是事实。
51:56 Q: Sir, if I try and observe fear, I cannot observe it. 问：先生，如果我试着去观察恐惧，我就无法观察它。
52:01 K: I’m going... sir, just follow it. I’m going to go into that, sir. How do you observe...? Sir, how do you observe your wife? Have you ever observed your wife, or your husband, boy or girl, have you? What do you say, have you? Observed. How do you observe them? There is visual perception, the face, the colour of the hair, colour of the eyes, the eyebrows and so on, so on, and that’s a physical observation. You see that. Then how do you observe her, non-physically? 克：我会……先生，你跟上就好。我会探究它的，先生。 你要怎么观察……？先生，你怎么观察你的妻子？ 你是否曾经观察过你的妻子， 或者你的丈夫、男友或者女友，你观察过吗？ 你会回答什么，你观察过吗？ 观察过。你是如何观察他们的？ 有视觉上的观察——脸庞、头发的颜色、 双眸的颜色，眉毛等等， 这是一种身体上的观察。你看到了这些。 然后从非身体的角度你会如何观察她？
52:58 Q: Through your image of them?

K: Don’t ask me. Are you sure of that? My God! Just theories, you indulge in. Haven’t you got an image about your wife? 		问：透过你对她们持有的意象吗？

克：不要问我。 你确定如此吗？ 老天！全是理论，你陷在理论里了。 难道你对你妻子不持有某个意象吗？
53:17 Q: You do it through experience of the person. 问：你通过与那个人的经历来建立意象。
53:26 K: Yes, we said that, through interaction, through habit, through nagging, through domination, possession, hurts, you have created, through interaction, between man and woman, an image about her and she has built an image about you. That’s a simple fact, isn’t it? Would you see that? 克：是的，我们说过这个，通过互动，通过习惯， 通过唠叨，通过控制、占有、伤害， 通过男女双方的互动，你制造了 关于她的一个意象，而她也建立了一个你的意象。 这是个简单的事实，不是吗？你看到了吗？
53:52 Q: Surely there are benign forms of interaction, as well? 问：无疑也有良性的互动，不是吗？
54:05 K: Interaction is very complicated, we know that. So, each person creates an image about him or her, and you look at each other through those images, don’t you? You have hurt me, I have a picture of that, I have been hurt by you. You have hurt my image about myself. Right? And that picture I hold. So, through images we are related. How terrible all this is! 克：互动是很复杂的，我们都知道。 因此，每个人都为他或她制造了一个意象， 你们透过这些意象来看待彼此，不是吗？ 你伤害过我，我对此持有一个画面， 我被你伤害过。 你伤害了我对自己持有的意象，对吗？ 而我抱有这个画面。 因此，我们的关系是透过意象产生的。这一切真是太糟糕了！
54:52 Now, we’re asking, how do you observe all this? Do you observe it as something outside of you, or part of you? You understand the difference? If it is outside of you then you have to do something about it. Right? Conquer it, suppress it, run away from it, explain it, analyse it and so on, which is all conflict, isn’t it? But if there is no division, you are that, aren’t you? That’s a fact, isn’t it? You don’t do it, that’s why you just... 现在，我们问，你是怎么观察这一切的？ 你是把它作为某个外在的东西，还是把它作为你的一部分来观察？ 你明白这种区别吗？ 如果它是你之外的东西，那么你就得对它做点什么，对吗？ 征服它、压制它、逃离它、诠释它、 分析它等等，而这一切都是冲突，不是吗？ 但是如果不存在分裂，那么你就是它，不是吗？ 这是个事实，不是吗？ 你并没有这么做，那就是为什么你只能
55:45 Q: You feel the pain inside you but you look outside you for the cause. 问：你感受到内心的痛苦，但是却在自身之外寻找原因。
55:49 K: Somewhere else. That’s right, sir. I’m asking you, how do you look at yourself? We have described what you are – anger, hate, jealousy, neuroticism, peculiar habits, idiosyncrasies, vanity, arrogance, a bundle of God knows what. And you say, ‘Well, how do you look at this bundle?’ 克：在其他的地方。没错，先生。 我在问你，你是怎么看自己的？ 我们已经讲述了你真实的样子——愤怒、憎恨、 嫉妒、神经质、特殊的习惯、个性、 虚荣、傲慢，一堆天知道是什么的东西， 接着你说，“好的，你要怎么观察这堆东西？”
56:23 Q: You feel it, sir.

K: You feel it. Now, you are that bundle, aren’t you? You’re not different from that bundle, are you? This is our conditioning, this is our training, this is our education, which says, ‘I am different from that,’ and that’s one of our greatest difficulties. We don’t see that is ‘me,’ anger is ‘me,’ isn’t it, sir? Arrogance is ‘me,’ vanity is ‘me,’ but I like to think it is something outside of me. 		问：你感受这些，先生。

克：你感受它。 而你就是这些东西，不是吗？ 你与这些东西没有分别，不是吗？ 这就是我们的局限，就是我们所受的训练、所受的教育， 它说，“我是有别于这些的”， 而这就是我们最大的困难之一。 我们不明白这些就是“我”，愤怒就是“我”，不是吗，先生？ 傲慢就是“我”，虚荣就是“我”， 但是我却情愿认为它是我之外的东西。
57:10 Now, the question was, which that gentleman raised, when you see that all that bundle is you, actually, not as an idea, reality, that you are that. That is, the observer is the observed, the thinker is the thought, what we have analysed is the analyser. Right? So, the question was, what happens when this actuality takes place? You understand, sir? 现在，问题是——就是那位先生提出的， 当你看到这一切就是你——真的看到， 不是作为一种观念，而是一个事实：你就是这些， 也就是，观察者就是所观察之物， 思想者就是思想，我们所分析之物就是分析者。 对吗？ 因此，问题就是，当这个事实发生时，会怎么样？ 你明白了吗，先生？
57:55 Q: You have a good laugh.

K: Have a good laugh? Well, you have laughed, right, and then what? Oh, sir, do let’s be serious, this is not a joke. 		问：你会大笑一番。

克：大笑一番？ 好吧，你笑了一番，那么接下来呢？ 哦，先生，让我们严肃点吧，这不是个玩笑。
58:07 Q: I don’t feel any more tension.

K: No. Is this a fact to you, that there is no division between yourself and the various qualities or things that you have accumulated, you are all that – is that a fact? Then the questioner says, assume it is a fact, then what is the state, right? What happens? Look at his question. Suppose this is so, then what happens? You want a description of what happens, so you’re caught, again, in a description. You don’t say, ‘Now I’m going to find out, I’II put my teeth into it, I’m going to find out why this division exists in me, this self-contradiction, why I cannot see that as I see anger is ‘me,’ why cannot I see that the whole characteristics, the idiosyncrasies, the vanities, the hurt, is part of ‘me,’ is ‘me’? Why don’t you see that? If you see that, then what is the action? There is no action, there’s no action. You understand? We are used to action, to do something about ourselves, therefore, we say, the thing we observe, we separate ourselves from that observed because we think we can do something about it – right? – suppress it, conquer it, analyse it, dissect it, a dozen things. That’s part of our education, part of our tradition, part of our culture, but the reality is, that which you observe in yourself is you. Right? When that really takes place all action stops, with regard to yourself, which we can’t accept because it’s quite contrary to our conditioning. So, what happens when you don’t waste your energy in conquering, in disciplining, in suppressing, what happens, with all that energy? It’s all there, now, isn’t it? Instead of wasting it, you’ve got it. 		问：我不再感到紧张了。

克：不。 对你来说这是个事实吗？ 也就是不存在分裂——在你自己和各种特质之间 或者和你累积起来的各种东西之间， 你就是那一切——这是个事实吗？ 然后发问者说，假设这是个事实， 那会是个什么状态，对吗？会发生什么？ 看看他的问题。 假设是这样的，那会怎样？ 对所发生的事你想要一番描述， 因此你又陷入了描述之中。 你不说，现在，我要去把它搞清楚， 我会全身心地投入，我要去发现 为什么这种分裂，这种自我矛盾会存在于我内心， 为什么我不明白：在我看时，愤怒就是“我”， 为什么我无法看到这所有的特质、 个性、虚荣、伤害就是“我”的一部分，就是“我”呢？ 为什么你没有看到？ 如果你看到了，那会有什么行动呢？ 没有行动，不存在行动。 你明白吗？我们习惯于行动，习惯于对自己做些什么， 因此，我们说，对于我们所观察的事物， 我们会把自己从中分离出来， 是因为我们自认为能对它做点什么，对吗？ 压制它、征服它、分析它、剖析它——对它做很多事情。 这就是我们教育的一部分，传统的一部分，文化的一部分， 然而事实是，你从自己内心所观察到的事物就是你，对吗？ 当这件事真正发生时，你对自己所做的一切都会停下来， 而我们无法接受这点，因为这和我们的习惯是相悖的。 因此，会发生什么——当你不再浪费自己的能量去征服、 克制、压抑时， 那些能量会怎样？ 所有的能量都在那儿了，不是吗？你会得到它，而不是浪费它。
1:01:17 Q: Please, may I suggest that we come back to your definition of activity and action? 问：恳请你，我可以建议我们回过头去 讨论一下你对行为和行动的定义吗？
1:01:22 K: Yes, sir, wait. Don’t go into my definition. Just look at what is taking place. I started out by realising that the inward conflict expresses itself, outwardly. That’s a fact. I started out with that. I realised that. It’s not an idea, it’s an actuality, it’s a burning reality to me, that this fact that as long as there’s conflict in me, I’II have conflict with my wife, with my friends, with everything in life. I realise it, it is a fact. You can’t take it away from me. Then I say, why does this conflict exist? Because there is contradiction, the contradiction is wanting security and finding no security. That’s one factor. And another factor is that I am frightened to be alone, frightened to be lonely, therefore, I escape through you, through words, through pictures, through worship, through every form of entertainment, whether religious or otherwise. I escape. So, I don’t escape, I want to find this out, I will not escape, so I look. 克：好的，先生，等一下，请不要去探究我对它们的定义。 就只是去看实际在发生的事。我们的谈话是从意识到 内在的冲突会表现在外部这点开始的。 这是个事实。我们是从这里开始的。 我意识到了这点，这不是种观念，而是一个事实， 这对我来说是个迫在眉睫的事实， 这个事实就是：只要我内心有冲突， 那么我和妻子之间、和朋友之间、 和生活里的一切就会存在冲突。 我意识到了这点，这是个事实。你无法从我这儿拿走这个事实。 接着我问，为什么会存在这种冲突？ 是因为内心存在矛盾， 矛盾就是想要得到安全感，却发现根本不存在安全感， 这是原因之一。 另外的一个原因就是我害怕孤单， 害怕孤独， 因此我就通过你逃避孤独， 通过真言，通过画像，通过拜神， 通过各种形式的娱乐——无论是宗教还是其他形式。 我避之不及。所以，我不逃避了， 我想找出真相，我不会逃避了，我会去看。
1:02:51 So, I see why this division exists – fear. Fear of being completely alone. What is fear? And how do I observe that fear? Is that fear out there and I am looking at it, or the fear is ‘me’? If it is out there, I can cut it like a tree, I can operate on it. But if it’s here, if it’s part of me, part of my thinking, what can I do? You understand my question? So, our conditioning is to act on something which we see outwardly, which is fear. When that activity ceases, I’m lost. So, I’m frightened. So, I say, ‘Now, I’II look at that fear.’ How do I look at it? I look at it as part of me, it is me that’s afraid – ‘me,’ the psyche, inwardly. Can I look at it? Can I observe it? I can only observe it if I have a mirror. You understand? As I can observe my face in the mirror, so I can observe myself in my relationship – you understand? The relationship with another is the mirror in which I see my fear. You understand this? 所以，我看到了为什么会存在这种分裂——因为恐惧。 害怕完全的孤单一人。 什么是恐惧？我是又如何观察这份恐惧的？ 是不是这份恐惧在那边，而我在这边看着它， 还是这份恐惧就是“我”？ 如果它在那儿，我就能像砍掉一棵树一样砍掉它，我就能对它做点什么。 但是如果它在这里，如果它就是“我”，就是我思想的一部分， 那么，我还能做什么吗？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 因此，我们的局限就在于对我们从外部看到的事 ——也就是恐惧——有所行动， 当这样的活动停止时，我就不知所措了。 因此，我很害怕。所以我就说，“我要去看这份恐惧。” 我要怎么去看它？ 我把它作为我的一部分来看，正是这个“我”在恐惧 ——“我”，这个内在的心智。 我能看着它吗？我能观察它吗？ 只有在我有一面镜子的时候，我才能观察到它。 你明白吗？就像我在镜子里看到自己的脸一样， 我也可以在关系中观察自己——你明白吗？ 和他人的关系就是一面能让我看到恐惧的镜子。 你明白这点吗？
1:04:47 So, in that relationship, I see my fear. Then, I say to myself, ‘I am part of that fear therefore, I’m going to just observe it, not act upon it.’ You understand? Observe it. Therefore, there is only one factor which is really important, which is the clarity of observation. That clarity is prevented when the past, which is ‘me,’ my knowledge, all the past, prevents me from looking. You understand? The observer is the past – his memories, his hopes, his fears. So, as long as the observer is observing fear he will not go beyond fear, but when the observer is the observed then you have collected all that energy which you have wasted in struggle, in suppression, in anxiety and all that, you have got now tremendous energy which has not been wasted. When there is that tremendous energy, is there fear? It’s only when there is the dissipation of energy, there is fear. Then out of that, what comes next? You’re eager to find out what comes next because you don’t do it, first. 因此，在这份关系中，我看到了自己的恐惧。 接着，我对自己说，“我就是这份恐惧的一部分， 因此我就只是去观察恐惧，而不对恐惧采取行动。” 你明白吗？观察它。 因此，只有一个因素是真正重要的， 那就是清明的觉察。 这份清明会受到阻碍，当过去——也就是“我”、 我的知识，所有的过去——阻碍我去看时。 你明白吗？ 观察者就是过去——他的记忆、他的希望、他的恐惧。 因此，只要观察者在观察恐惧， 他就无法超越恐惧， 但是当观察者就是所观之物时， 你就聚集了所有的能量——这些你浪费在 挣扎、压制、忧虑这一切之中的能量， 你此刻就得到了这些没被浪费掉的巨大能量。 当有了这股巨大的能量时，还会有恐惧吗？ 只有当能量有所耗散时，才会存在恐惧。 然后从这里接下来会怎样？ 你迫切渴望发现接下来会怎么样 是因为你一开始就没有去行动。
1:06:45 There’s lots more because then there is the total freedom to observe, and silence. Observation means silence, doesn’t it? If my mind is chattering, I can’t observe you. Right? If my mind says, ‘I don’t like that colour, I don’t like that face, I prefer black or brown, or purple,’ I can’t observe you. So, I must first be aware of my prejudices, put them away and then be free of them and look. But you don’t want to do all that, you want to reach instant heaven! Which is transcendental meditation. 接下来将会发生很多事情， 因为那时你的观察是完全自由的， 并且内心也是寂静的。 观察意味着寂静，不是吗？ 如果我的心是喋喋不休的，我就无法观察你。 对吗？ 如果我的心说，“我不喜欢那个颜色，我不喜欢那张脸， 我喜欢黑色、棕色或者紫色”，那么我就无法观察你了。 因此，我首先必须觉知我的偏见， 把它们丢在一边，从中解脱出来，然后去看。 但是你并不想做这些，你想即刻就到达天堂！ 也就是超觉冥想。
1:07:54 Q: I find a problem that when I try and look at an emotion like anger I can’t see the thought of it, I can’t see the anger. 问：我发现一个问题：当我试着去看一种情绪比如愤怒时， 我无法看到愤怒的念头，我无法看到愤怒。
1:08:05 K: No, wait, sir. Wait, look. When you feel angry, at the moment you’re not aware that you’re angry. Just watch it, sir. At the moment of anger your whole adrenaline, everything is in operation, and you’re angry, at that moment you’re not aware that you’re angry. Then later on comes the thought, ‘I have been angry.’ Right? 克：不，等一下，先生，等一下，你看。 当你感到愤怒时，在那一刻你并没有意识到你很愤怒。 观察一下，先生。在愤怒的那一刻 你的整个肾上腺素，一切都在运作，你很愤怒， 在那刻你并没有发觉你在发怒。 随后思想才出现——“我发怒了。” 对吗？
1:08:38 Q: You were still angry before that sensation. 问：有这种感知之前你就愤怒了。
1:08:43 K: Wait, give me two minutes. I’m going to go into it. I will show you, sir, please. You know anger, don’t you? Or most of you, unfortunately. So, at the moment of that feeling, that sensation, there is no recognition of it as anger. Right? Then comes the recognition that I am angry, I have been angry. Now, how does that recognition take place? Because you have been angry before. So, when you say, ‘I have been angry,’ you have recognised it because you have been angry before. So, the past is dictating what you should do. Right? Careful. Listen. Watch it in yourself. When you’re angry, at the actual moment, there is no feeling of anger, then thought comes along and says, ‘I have been angry.’ Thought is essentially the movement of the past. Right? Now, can you stop that movement of that past and not name it? You know what jealousy is, and when you have been jealous, at the moment there is this feeling. Why does thought take it over? You understand my question? Why does thought come in and say, ‘Well, I’ve been jealous,’ or, ‘I am jealous,’ why? 克：等等，给我几分钟。我会探究它的。 恳请你，先生，我会向你说明的。 你知道愤怒，不是吗？很不幸，你们大多数人都知道它。 因此，在感觉、感知的那刻， 你并没有把它识别为愤怒，对吗？ 接着才分辨出我在发怒，我发怒了。 那么，这种识别是怎么发生的？ 是因为你以前愤怒过。 因此，当你说，我发怒了， 你之所以认出愤怒是因为你以前愤怒过。 因此，是过去在发号施令你应该怎么做。 对吗？请仔细些，好好听。在你自己内心观察一下。 当你愤怒时，在实际发生的那刻，你并没有感到愤怒， 接下来思想就尾随而至，说，“我发怒了。” 思想本质上就是过去的运动，对吗？ 那么，你能停止这种过去的运动 并且不给它命名吗？ 你知道嫉妒是什么， 当你嫉妒过后，那时才会感觉到嫉妒。 为什么思想会来接管它？你明白我的问题吗？ 为什么思想会插进来说， “哦，我嫉妒了”，或者，“我在嫉妒”， 为什么？
1:11:09 Q: You’re not there when you’re jealous. When you say, ‘I am jealous,’ then you come into being. 问：当你嫉妒时你并不在那儿。 当你说我很嫉妒，那时“你”就形成了。
1:11:17 K: Yes, why does it happen? Why don’t you say, ‘Yes, there is that feeling,’ and leave it alone? Why do you say, ‘I’ve been jealous’? And act from that jealousy, hate and all the rest of it, anger. 克：是的，为什么会这样？ 为什么你不说，“是的，有这种感觉”，然后就随它去呢？ 为什么你会说，“我刚才嫉妒了”？ 然后根据这份嫉妒、憎恨等等或者愤怒而有所行动。
1:11:34 Q: Because you need to identify with it. 问：是因为你要认同它。
1:11:40 K: Why do you identify?

Q: You have the feeling. 		克：为什么你要认同？

问：因为你有了感受。
1:11:48 K: Why does this identification with a feeling take place? 克：为什么会发生对感受的这种认同？
1:11:53 Q: Because you want to do something about it. It makes you feel insecure. 问：因为你想对此做点什么，它让你感到不安全。
1:11:56 K: Yes. And also it’s my house, my wife, my name, my form, my country, my God, my faith – you follow? – it’s part of your tradition, culture, which says, ‘me,’ mine. So, all the past comes over and takes charge. Now, we’re asking, are you aware of this movement of the past taking charge of things? Are you aware of it, actually, not as a theory, as an actuality? Which means that you live in the past. Therefore, you are dead. 克：是的。它也可能是我的房子、我的妻子、我的名字、我的外形、 我的上帝、我的国家、我的信仰，你跟上了吗？ 它是你的传统、文化的一部分，它们一直说，“我”，“我的”。 因此，所有的过去都涌过来接管。 现在，我们问，你是不是觉知到了这种运动 ——过去接管了一切的运动？ 你是不是真的觉知到了这种运动，不是作为理论，而是作为事实？ 这种运动意味着你活在过去之中， 因此，你是僵死的。
1:12:47 Q: One can’t be aware until... because that wouldn’t happen. It wouldn’t arise in the first place. 问：我们无法觉知，除非……因为那不会发生， 觉知不会在最开始就出现。
1:12:52 K: That’s just it, sir. That’s just what I’m saying. 克：就是这样的，先生。这就是我在说的。
1:12:55 Q: But then, when you’ve had the sensation and you’ve realised then that you’re angry, and then you try and observe the structure of that anger, there seems to be nothing to observe. 问：但是，在你有了这种感觉后， 你才意识到你很生气， 接着你就会试着去观察愤怒的结构， 但似乎并没有什么可观察的。
1:13:11 K: That’s all. It’s gone. Don’t be anxious about it, it’s gone! 克：就是这样，它消失了。 不用去挂虑它，它已经消失了！
1:13:21 Q: But you say one should see the totality. 问：但是你说我们应该看到整体。
1:13:27 K: That’s what I said. The totality – say for instance, sir, the totality of hurt. You understand? Human beings are hurt from childhood, school, college, you know, the whole business of existence. You’re hurt, which is, you have an image about yourself which is hurt. Do you see that as an actuality? If you see that as an actuality, that the very essence of you is hurt, then what will you do about it? There are the past hurts, and you want to prevent future hurts. Can the past hurts be wiped away so that you can never be hurt, which doesn’t mean that you become like a stone. Never to be hurt. You see, you never ask these questions. Ask them! 克：我是这么说的，整体—— 举例来说——先生——伤害的整体，你明白吗？ 人类从幼年到上学再到上大学一直在受伤害， 你知道生活的这整个过程。 你受伤，也就是，你对自己所持有的意象受伤害了。 你是实际上看到了这点吗？ 如果你实际上看到了这点：“你”的核心受到了伤害， 然后你会对此做点什么呢？ 你内心有着过去的各种伤害，而你想避免将来再受伤害。 过去的各种伤害能不能消除掉，于是你就能永远不再受伤， 这并不是说你要变成一块石头。 永远不受伤害。 你看，你从没问过这些问题。问问这些问题！
1:14:58 Q: If you lose security, then you are hurt. 问：要是你没了安全感，那么你就会感到受伤。
1:15:02 K: Sir, why are you hurt? You, who are hurt, what is the ‘you’? The image you have about yourself, no? I’m a Christian, I’m a Buddhist, I’m a Hindu, I am proud, I am vain – you follow? – all that is ‘you.’ Or, you think you are God, or a superior spiritual something inside you, which is above all this, which is, again, a process of thought. Right? So, the process of thought is hurt. And how do you prevent future hurts? Not by resistance, not by withdrawal, not by becoming more and more hard. Do you want to wipe out your hurts, or do you love your hurts? No, do please. Do you want to keep your hurts? There is great pleasure in keeping them because that gives you vitality, energy to hurt somebody else. If you want to be free of all hurts, what will you do? So that you are never, under any circumstances, in your relationship with the world, or with your friends, never to be hurt. Do you know what it means? To have a mind that is incapable of being hurt. Hurt – also, the other side is flattery. Both are the same. So, is it possible to end this being hurt? Do you want to find out? I’d better stop.

Q: Please, go on. 		克：先生，为什么你会受伤？ 你——受伤的你——这个“你”是什么？ 你对自己持有的意象，不是吗？ 我是个基督徒，我是个佛教徒，我是个印度教徒， 我很自豪，我很自负——你明白吗——这一切都是“你”。 还是，你认为自己就是上帝， 或者你内心有高层次的灵性之物——它超越于这一切之上， 而这又是一个思想过程，对吗？ 因此，是这个思想过程受伤了。 而你又要怎么防止将来再受伤呢？ ——不经由反抗，不经由退缩， 不是变得越来越铁石心肠。 你想不想消除掉所有的伤害，还是你喜欢这些伤害？ 不，拜托了。 你想维持这些伤害吗？ 维持伤害之中有着巨大的快感 因为这会给予你活力以及能量去伤害别人。 如果你想摆脱所有的伤害，你要怎么做？ 于是你就永远——不管怎样—— 在你同这个世界或者同你朋友的关系之中 永远不受伤害。你知道这意味着什么吗？ 意味着拥有一颗有能力不受伤害的心灵。 伤害——还有它的反面是阿谀奉承。 但两者都是一样的。 因此，有没有可能结束这种伤害？ 你想找出真相吗？ 我最好停下来了。

问：请继续讲下去。
1:17:44 K: All right, all right. Do you really want to go into this?

Q: Yes. 		克：好的，好的。 你真的想探究它吗？

问：是的。
1:17:49 K: All right, sir, I’II do it for you. But, do it. You understand? Not just live with words and ideas, but do it, because then you are free. Then you blossom in goodness, you flower in goodness, then. 克：好的，先生，我会为你这么做的。但是，你得自己去做，你明白吗？ 不要只是接受些言语和观念，而是去那么做， 因为那样你才会自由， 你才会在良善之中盛开，然后在良善之中绽放。
1:18:11 What is hurt? I’m going to go into it. Don’t go verbally but, actually, look at yourself and go into yourself. You are hurt. Your parents hurt you when you’re a child, your friends, when you’re a child or a boy, hurt you, psychologically, then in the school, they hurt you, by saying you must be as clever as your brother, or your uncle, or your headmaster, or whatever it is, and then college, you pass exams and if you fail, you’re hurt. And if you don’t get a job, you’re hurt. Everything in the world is put together so that it hurts you. Our education which is so rotten, hurts you. So, you are hurt. Do you actually realise that you’re hurt? And see the results of being hurt – you want to hurt others. From that, arises anger, resistance, you withdraw, become more and more inwardly separate. And the more you are inwardly separate, withdrawing, the more you’re hurt. So, you build a wall around yourself and pretend that you’re very... you know, but always within the wall. These are all the symptoms. So, you’re hurt. And if you really, deeply realise that you’re hurt, not only at the conscious level but deep down, then, what will you do? 什么是伤害？我要探究一下。 不是从字面上，而是真正去探究它，去观察你自己，探究你自己。 你受伤了， 在你还是一个孩子的时候，你父母就伤害了你， 在你还是个孩子的时候你的朋友在心理上伤害了你， 接着在小学里，他们也伤害你， 他们说你必须和你的兄弟一样聪明， 或者和你的叔叔、校长或者随便什么人一样聪明， 接着上大学，你要通过考试，如果你没通过，那么你就受伤了。 然后如果你没有谋得一份工作，你也感到很受伤。 世界上的一切都凑在一起来伤害你。 我们的教育是这么的腐败，它伤害了你。 因此，你深受伤害。 你是不是真的意识到你受伤了？ 而在看到了这些受伤的后果后，你就想伤害他人。 由此，就会引起愤怒、对抗，你就会退缩逃避， 内心变得越来越分裂。 而你内心越分裂、越退缩， 你就会越受伤。 因此，你在自己周围竖起一堵墙，并且装作你很 你知道，但是总躲在围墙之内。 这就是所有的症状。 因此，你受伤了。 而如果你真的很深刻地意识到你受伤了 ——不只是在意识层面，也在内心深处意识到了， 然后，你会怎么做？
1:20:15 Now, how does this hurt take place? Because you have an image about yourself. Suppose if I have an image about myself that I’m always sitting on a platform talking to an audience – thank God, I don’t – and if the audience disapproves or doesn’t come, I’m hurt because I have an image about myself. So, the fact is, as long as I have an image about myself that image is going to be hurt. Right? That’s clear, isn’t it? Now, is it possible to live without a single image? Which means no conclusions, which is a form of image, no prejudice. You follow? All these are images. And at the moment when you insult me, which is, at the moment you say something contrary to the image which I have about myself, then you hurt me. Now, at that moment, when you are saying something that is harmful, hurtful, if I am aware of what you’re saying, give my total attention to what you’re saying. You understand? At the second when you want to hurt me by saying something I give my attention to it, then there is no registration taking place. You understand this? It is only when there is inattention the registration of hurt takes place, or flattery. 那么，这种伤害是怎么发生的？ 是因为你对自己持有一个意象。 假设我有一个关于自己的意象： 我总是坐在讲台上给听众们作演讲 ——感谢老天，我并没有—— 而如果听众不喜欢或者不来，我就受伤了， 因为我对自己持有一个意象。 因此，事实就是，只要我对自己持有一个意象， 这个意象就会受伤。 对吗？这很清楚，不是吗？ 那么，有没有可能活着却不持有任何意象呢？ 这意味着不持任何结论——那也是一种意象——不持任何偏见。 你跟上了吗？所有这些都是意象。 在你侮辱我的那一刻， 也就是，在你说了一些有违这个意象的话的那刻 ——这个意象是我对自己持有的—— 那么我就受伤了。 那么，在那一刻，你说 一些损人的、伤人的话时， 如果我觉察到你说的话， 全身心地去关注你说的话 你明白吗？ 在你想说些话伤害我的那一刻， 我全身心地关注你说话，记录就不会发生。 这点你明白了吗？ 只有当心不在焉时， 才会有对伤害或者对阿谀奉承的记录。
1:22:13 Now, can you give, when somebody says you’re a fool, can you, at that moment, give your total attention? If you do, then there is no hurt. The past hurts have gone in that attention. Attention is like a flame that burns out the past and the present hurt. Have you got this? That’s enough for today. 那么，你能不能——当有人说你是个傻瓜时—— 你能不能在那刻保持全神贯注呢？ 如果你这么做，那就不会有伤害了。 过去的种种伤害在这份关注之下消失了。 关注就如同一团火焰，会烧掉过去和现在的所有伤害。 你明白了吗？ 今天就说这么多了。