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BR76T3 - 心理时间是不是思想的发明？
第三次公开讲话
英国布洛克伍德公园
1976年9月4日



0:23 Shall we go on with what we were talking about the other day, when we last met here. We talked about relationship, which is so important, because probably that’s the basis of all society. When that relationship is in constant conflict, as it is now, our whole social and moral structure must, inevitably, be corrupt. And we said – if we remember, rightly – that relationship, being of extraordinary importance, breeds conflict because our relationship is based on the movement of thought – the movement of thought being memory, measure, knowledge. And when knowledge interferes with relationship then, there must be conflict – knowledge being, all that one has accumulated during the past incidents, nagging, and all the rest of human relationship – what goes on. 我们可以接着前几天的内容继续讲吗？ 我们上次在这里 讨论了关系，关系是如此重要， 因为它或许就是所有社会的基础。 当关系处于持续不断的冲突中——就像如今所发生的， 我们整个社会与道德的结构就不可避免地会腐败。 而我们说了——如果没记错的话—— 这至关重要的关系 却滋生了冲突， 因为我们的关系是基于思想活动之上的， 思想的活动就是记忆、度量、知识。 当知识涉足关系时， 就必然会有冲突 ——知识就是我们从过去发生的 事件、烦扰以及一切人际关系中积累起来的所有东西。
2:10 And this morning, if we may continue, we ought to talk about time, sorrow, love and that extraordinarily important thing also in our life, which is death. We have rather a crowded morning with so many things to talk about, together – and I hope that we are sharing this thing together, not merely listening to a series of ideas, words, and through wrong listening, make what is said into a conclusion and agree or disagree with those conclusions. But what we are trying to do is talk things over as two friends, concerned with human problems and the importance of bringing about a radical transformation in our consciousness. That’s what we have been talking about, and we shall go on with that, today and tomorrow. 而今天早上，如果我们可以继续探讨的话， 我们应该来谈一下时间、悲伤、爱， 以及那件同样是我们生命中至关重要的事 ——死亡。 今天早上这里挤满了人， 我们要一起来讨论如此多的内容， 我希望我们是在一同分享着这件事， 不仅仅是你听到一连串的观点、词句， 然后经由错误的聆听，把讲者所说的话变成一个个结论， 再对这些结论表示赞同或反对。 我们试图去做的是 像两个朋友一样去讨论，关注人类的问题， 以及在我们的意识中 带来一次彻底改变的重要性。 这就是我们一直在谈的， 今天和明天，我们也将继续来讨论这些问题。
3:51 What is time? I think this is important to understand because that may be one of the factors of our fear about death. So, we must understand the nature of time: not the scientific fiction of time or timelessness but the actual, psychological time that thought has built. So, there are two kinds of time: the chronological, the daily events – yesterday, today and tomorrow – and there is the psychological time – the hope, what will be, and the achievement of what should be. All that involves time. Time is a movement. Please, follow all this, in yourself, not as an idea. Time is a movement, as thought is movement. So, thought and time are very closely related. There is chronological time – yesterday, today and tomorrow – catching the bus, train, going to the office and all the rest of that – time according to a watch, daylight, night. And, there is the whole nature of time, as thought has built in the psyche, in ourselves, that is, ‘what is’ and ‘what should be,’ a movement from here to there. Is there psychological time at all, or it is, actually, an invention of thought? That is, what is jealousy, anger, cruelty, violence – that is ‘what is.’ And to overcome that, we need time. That is the traditional, educated, conditioned thinking that to change ‘what is’ to ‘what should be’ from here to there – you need to cover that distance, time which is effort. Right? We’re meeting each other? Effort, to go from here, psychologically, towards an end – that end projected by thought, a purpose, a goal, an achievement, enlightenment and all the rest of it. That is, to move from here, ‘what is,’ to ‘what should be,’ the ideal. That’s what we have accepted, that is our normal thinking, or rather, educated thinking. It may be, perhaps, a neurotic thinking. Because we do not know how to deal with ‘what is,’ immediately, so we think we need time to achieve that which should be. Because we don’t know, or we are not capable, we don’t understand how to deal with ‘what is’ – anger, jealousy, hatred, sorrow and all the immense confusion which thought, man has created in himself, and so outwardly. 时间是什么？ 我认为了解这一点非常重要， 因为它或许就是造成我们对死亡感到恐惧的因素之一。 所以我们必须要了解时间的本质： 不是科幻小说中的时间或者永恒， 而是思想所营造的那种实际的、心理上的时间。 所以，存在着两种时间： 年月日、日常活动的时间——昨天、今天和明天， 还有就是心理上的时间 ——希望将来成为什么样子，以及去达到“应该怎样”。 所有这些都涉及了时间。时间就是一种运动。 请在内心理解这些，不只是把它作为一种观点。 时间就是一种运动，就如思想也是一种运动。 所以思想与时间是紧密相连的。 有年月日顺序的时间——昨天、今天和明天， 赶公共汽车、赶火车，几点上班等等这些 ——手表上的时间，白天与夜晚。 还有时间的全部本质， 就像思想在心理上，在我们内心所建立起来的， 也就是“实际现状”和“应该怎样”， 一种从这里到那里的运动。 究竟有没有心理上的时间， 还是说它实际上是思想的发明？ 也就是说，嫉妒、愤怒、残酷、暴力 ——这些就是“实际现状”。 而要战胜它们，我们就需要时间。 这是传统的、我们被灌输的局限的思维方式， 即改变“实际现状”达到“应该怎样”，从这里到那里， 你需要跨越这段距离，需要时间，也就是努力。对吗？ 我们彼此理解了吗？ 努力，心理上从这个地方朝着某个目标前进， 那个目标是思想投射出来的，也许是一个目的、一个终点、 一种成就或觉悟，等等这些。 也就是，从这里即“实际现状”出发达到“应该怎样”，即理想。 这就是我们所接受的观点，这就是我们通常的思维方式， 或者更确切地说是我们被灌输的思维方式。 但它也许是一种神经病的思维方式。 因为我们不知道如何在当下去处理“实际现状”， 所以我们认为我们需要时间来达到“应该怎样”。 因为我们并不知道，或者说我们没有能力， 我们也不懂得如何去处理“实际现状” ——那些愤怒、嫉妒、仇恨、悲伤， 以及所有那些巨大的混乱——这些混乱是思想 和人类在内心制造出来的，进而引发了外在的混乱。
8:26 So, we need time. At least, we think so. That is, if all hope is removed – hope is time. Right? Please, follow all this. One is desperate, anxious, frightened, all the things that human beings go through, to transform all that into something which is, perhaps, totally different, we think we need a process of time. Right? Please understand this, clearly. That is, the psychological time – the chronological time and the psychological time. We are talking about the psychological time. Time, we said, is a movement as thought is a movement, in time. So, is there an ideal, the ‘what should be,’ something different from ‘what is’? You understand my question? I’m envious, one is envious. We know all the implications of that envy, with the results of it in society, in our relationship with each other, and to overcome or to go beyond that envy, I need some days, weeks, months, years. Is that so, or is it total illusion? Can ‘what is’ be changed, immediately, instantly? If it can, then the ideal, that which should be, is non-existent. 所以我们需要时间来解决它们。至少我们是这么认为的。 也就是，如果拿掉所有的希望——希望就是时间。 对吗？请跟上。 我们绝望、焦虑、害怕， 人类所遭受的一切， 要把这一切转变成某种或许是全然不同的事物， 我们认为需要一个时间过程。 对吗？请把这一点理解清楚。 也就是心理上的时间 ——时间包括了物理时间和心理时间。 我们谈的是心理上的时间。 如我们所说，时间是一种运动，就像思想也是时间中的运动。 所以，是否存在理想、“应该怎样”， 某种不同于“实际现状”的事物？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 我是妒忌的，某人是妒忌的。 我们知道妒忌的所有含义， 以及它在社会和我们彼此关系中所造成的后果， 而要战胜或者超越这种妒忌， 我需要时间——几天、几星期、几个月或几年。 然而是这样的吗？还是说那完全是一种错觉？ “实际现状”能够立即、即刻就改变吗？ 如果可以的话，那么理想和“应该怎样”就不存在了。
11:04 We are understanding each other? Please, perhaps, some of you are here for the first time and not have listened to all the other talks and, therefore, this may all sound rather strange, extravagant and quite loony. But actually, when you go into it, very deeply, into oneself, which is important because as we said, you are the world and the world is you, and wherever you go, every human being, whatever colour, whatever nationality, whatever religion he may be, he has these human problems of great sorrow, tears, laughter, anxiety, pain, that’s the common factor of human beings. And so, the world, wherever you are, that human beings are, they go through the same psychological phenomena as yourself, so you are, actually, the world and the world is you. If you can realise that, feel that profoundly, then it becomes extraordinarily important that one should transform oneself completely, psychologically, because then you affect the total consciousness of the world. That gives you enormous vitality, energy, strength when you see that you are like the rest of humanity and, therefore, there is no separate, individualistic struggle to overcome one’s own particular sorrow. 我们理解彼此了吗？来吧， 或许你们中一些人是第一次来到这儿， 并没有听过其他几次演讲， 因此这些东西听起来也许相当奇怪、 离谱和疯狂。 然而事实上，当你非常深入地探究它，探究你自己时 ——这非常重要，因为我们说过 你就是世界，世界就是你， 无论你走到哪里，每个人， 不管他是什么肤色、什么国籍、归属于何种宗教， 都有着这些人类的问题——巨大的悲伤、 泪水、欢笑、焦虑、痛苦， 这是全人类所共有的。 因此，无论你身处何方，全世界的人们都 像你一样经受着同样的心理现象， 所以你实际上就是世界，而世界就是你。 如果你可以意识到这一点，深刻地感受到它， 那么这件事就会变得无比重要， 即我们应该彻底地在心理上转变我们自己， 因为那样你就会影响到这个世界的整体意识。 这会带给你一种巨大的活力、能量与力量 ——当你发现你和其他人一样， 因此并不存在单独的、个体的 去战胜自身特殊痛苦的努力。
13:10 So, we’re saying, it’s very important to understand time. Time is part of our consciousness. Time is the division between ‘what is’ and ‘what should be’ and the effort made to change ‘what is,’ according to ‘what should be,’ that needs great time, from here to there. I think we must question that whole process. Though it has become traditional, we must question it, doubt it. And doubt is a very important thing in life. To doubt. Perhaps one or two religions – like Buddhism – start by questioning everything. As we said the other day, if you start with certainty, as most people do, then you end up with nothing. But if you start with doubting, questioning, being sceptical, trying to investigate, then, you end up with clarity. So, we are questioning this idea that we need time to change ‘what is’ into ‘what should be,’ which is a psychological process. Why is it not possible to change ‘what is,’ immediately not have the ideal? You understand my question? Ideal is a projection of ‘what is’ away from ‘what is.’ The ideal is non-existent. It’s a fiction, the ideal. What is actual, is what exists, ‘what is.’ So, we are dealing with ‘what is,’ which is actual, and trying to change ‘what is’ into ‘what should be,’ which is illusory. So, we are always caught between the fact and what is illusion. So, if one is able to think very clearly, objectively, non-personally, then is it possible to change ‘what is’ without transforming it into ‘what should be’? 所以我们说，了解时间是非常重要的。 时间就是我们意识的一部分。 时间就是“实际现状”与“应该怎样”之间的沟壑， 而根据“应该怎样”来改变“实际现状”的努力 就需要大量的时间，从“这里”到达“那里”。 我认为我们必须要质疑这整个过程。 虽然它已经成为了传统的思维，但我们还是必须质疑它、怀疑它。 怀疑是生活中很重要的一环。 去怀疑。 也许有那么一两个宗教——比如佛教—— 是从怀疑一切开始的。 就如我们几天前说过的，如果你从确定开始——大多数人都是如此， 那么你最终将一无所获。 但如果你是从怀疑、发问、 质疑和试着去探究开始的， 那么最后你就会澄澈明了。 所以我们在质疑这个观念： 我们需要时间才能把“实际现状”改变成“应该怎样” ——这是一个心理上的过程。 为什么我们不可能立即就改变“实际现状”，而没有任何的理想？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 理想是基于“实际现状”的一种投射，它偏离了“实际现状”。 理想并不存在，它是一种虚构之物。 真实的是存在的事物，即“实际现状”。 所以我们在处理的是“实际现状”——它才是真实的东西， 而试图把“实际现状”变为“应该怎样”，这是一种幻觉。 因此，我们总是困在事实与幻想之间。 所以如果我们能够非常清楚、客观、不掺杂个人倾向地去思考， 那么有没有可能改变“实际现状”， 但却不把它转变为“应该怎样”呢？
16:28 Is it possible to change, say, for example, envy – with all the implications involved in envy – without having an opposite, which is non-greed, non-envy, to change ‘what is’? And you can change ‘what is’ only when you have the energy which is not being wasted in trying to overcome ‘what is.’ I wonder if I’m… You see, again, we are traditionally bound, conditioned to an ‘opposite’ – love/hate, violence/non-violence. We’II take violence. Violence is, apparently, in the human nature – anger, competition, ruthlessness, trying to express oneself at any cost against everybody else, the worship of success, either in the business world or in the spiritual world, which is the same thing. Human beings are violent. Violence implies not only physical violence, there’s psychological violence, which is comparison. Where there is comparison, there is violence. Where there is imitation, there is violence. Where there is the acceptance of authority, psychologically, there’s violence. Imitation, conformity, competition, all those and many other factors are the indication of violence. That’s a fact. That’s ‘what is.’ And human beings have created the opposite of it, which is not to be violent – which is called ‘non-violence.’ They’ve talked a great deal about it, in India, but they are equally violent. Is it possible to change violence without having its opposite? You understand my question? That is, not to imitate, not to conform, not to compare, not to seek success. If that is possible, then non-violence is unnecessary. So, because we cannot or we are not willing to transform violence, we invent the non-violence and we say, ‘I will, eventually, become non-violent.’ That’s a nice, comfortable, lazy, illusory idea. This is what we indulge in, but if you are really serious, deeply concerned to be totally non-violent, including anger, hate and all the rest of it, if you’re deeply concerned to transform that, you’ve got the energy, because that energy you have wasted in conflict with violence. 是否可能去改变……举个例子，比如说妒忌 ——包括妒忌的所有含义—— 却不建立起一个对立面，也就是“不贪婪”、“不妒忌”， 去改变“实际现状”呢？ 而只有当你有了能量，你才能改变“实际现状”， 那种能量没有在你试图去战胜“实际现状”中被浪费掉。 我不知道我是否 你瞧，我们再一次被传统所束缚， 已经习惯于对立面了 ——爱与恨，暴力与“非暴力”。 我们来谈一下暴力。 暴力很显然是存在于人性中的 ——愤怒、竞争、无情， 不惜一切代价努力表达自我同时去反对别人， 崇拜成功，不管是生意场上的成功 还是灵性领域的成功，那都是一回事。 人类是暴力的。 暴力不仅仅意味着身体上的暴力， 也包括心理上的暴力， 也就是比较。 有了比较，就会有暴力。 有了模仿，就会有暴力。 有了心理上对于权威的接受， 就会有暴力。 模仿、遵从、竞争， 所有这些还有其他的一些因素都是暴力的象征。 这是一个事实。这就是“实际现状”。 而人类已经制造出了它的对立面， 也就是不要暴力——所谓的“非暴力”。 在印度，人们大量地谈论它， 但他们同样也是暴力的。 是否可能改变暴力却不引入其对立面？ 你明白我的问题了吗？ 也就是，不去模仿、不去遵从、不去比较、 不去寻求成功。 如果这是可能的，那就不需要“非暴力”了。 所以，因为我们无法或者说我们不愿意去改变暴力， 于是我们就发明了“非暴力”， 然后说，“我最终将会变得不暴力”。 这是一个巧妙的、安慰人心的、偷懒的、虚幻的想法。 这就是我们所沉湎的事物， 但是如果你真的很认真， 深切地关心完全的不暴力， 也包括改变愤怒、仇恨等等这些东西， 如果你深切地关心它们的转变，那么你就有了能量， 因为那些能量没有被你浪费在与暴力的冲突之中。
20:56 So, it is possible to transform ‘what is’ without the idea of time? Is this clear? Please, this is very important because we’re going to go into something presently, which is, when you are talking about death, time is involved in it. So, we must really understand the nature and the structure of time, how time works. When you say, ‘I will be,’ or, ‘I must be something in the future,’ that involves time because you are dissatisfied with ‘what is,’ you condemn ‘what is,’ you suppress ‘what is,’ or try to argue it away and so, you utilise all that energy or you waste all that energy in this process, whereas, if you look at this violence, with all the implications and not have any idea of its opposite, which is illusory, then there is a transformation. You understand this? Do it! 所以，是否可能改变“实际现状”而不引入时间的概念？ 清楚了吗？请注意，这是非常重要的， 因为我们马上就会来探讨一个问题， 也就是当你在谈论死亡时，其中就包含了时间。 因此我们必须真正地了解时间的本质与结构， 时间是如何运作的。 当你说，“我会成为”或者“我将来必须变成什么”的时候， 这其中就包含了时间，因为你对“实际现状”并不满意， 你谴责“实际现状”，你压抑它， 或者试图为它辩解， 因此在这个过程中，你用掉了所有的能量， 或者说你浪费掉了所有的能量， 然而，如果你能够去看这个暴力 以及它全部的含义，却没有任何对立面的想法 ——对立面是一种错觉， 那么就会产生一种转变。 你理解了吗？去这样做吧！
22:37 So, time in meditation – you have to find out if time has a ‘stop.’ Therefore, it’s very important to understand the nature and the movement of time, how our brains are caught in it, our whole consciousness is filled with time – time being accumulated knowledge as experience which becomes a memory, and that memory is the storehouse from which thought begins. From the very beginning, man’s very beginning, that’s the process. So, one not only has to enquire into the nature of time, but also, one has to find out if time has come to an end, if there is a stop to time. This has been a tremendous problem – you understand? 所以，时间在冥想中 ——你必须去发现时间是否能够“停止”。 所以最重要的就是去了解 时间的本质及其运动，我们的大脑是如何陷入时间中的， 我们整个的意识中都充满了时间， 时间就是作为经验积累起来的知识 ——它变成了记忆， 从记忆的仓库中就产生出了思想。 从一开始的时候，从人类伊始，这个过程就开始了。 所以我们不仅仅要探询时间的本质， 同样的，我们也必须去发现时间是否会结束， 它是否能够停止。 这是一个无比重要的问题，你明白吗？
24:01 So, then we can go to the next thing, which is, what is our life? Living and dying. What is our life? When you look at our lives, what is it? Wrong occupation, battle with each other, wars, anxiety, great pain, lack of relationship in the true sense of that word – there is relationship between two images which you have about another and another has about you. Relationship is between those two ‘ideas,’ between those two thoughts. So, what is our living? When you look at it, very carefully and very seriously, not pretending, not trying to cover it up with words and clever, cunning thought – what, actually, is it? We waste our life, don’t we? And from birth to death it’s a constant battle, constant effort, constant struggle, to be or not to be, to become something or not to become something, to establish right relationship and always trying to fail. Wars, hatreds, deep hurts – that’s the content of our whole consciousness is our life, apart from the biological growth and decay. If you examine, as we are doing, now – please do it, together, if you’re at all serious, if you’re not serious, don’t bother. It’s a nice day, go outside and enjoy it. But if you are serious, look at your life – pleasure, sexual, other forms of pleasure, fear and sorrow. This is the content of our consciousness, with all its varieties, complex movements in this limited consciousness and that’s what we call ‘living.’ With faith, with doubt, with anxiety – you follow? – a perfect confusion – mess! 然后我们就可以接着谈下一个问题，也就是，我们的生活是什么？ 生活和死亡。我们的生活是什么？ 当你观察我们的生活时，它是什么？ 错误的职业，彼此斗争， 战争，焦虑， 巨大的痛苦，缺少真正意义上的关系， 有的只是两个形象之间的关系 ——你对别人所抱有的形象，以及别人对你抱有的形象。 我们的关系只存在于两个“概念”之间， 两个想法之间。 那么，我们的生活是什么呢？ 当你非常仔细、非常认真地去观察它时， 没有伪装，也不试图用各种词句 和聪明狡猾的思想来掩盖它 ——那么我们的生活实际上是什么？ 我们在浪费生命，不是吗？ 从出生到死去，生活是一场无止境的战斗， 不断的努力、不断的斗争，要成为什么，不要成为什么， 成为某号人物，不要成为怎样怎样的人， 想要建立起正确的关系，却总是失败。 战争、仇恨、深深的伤害 ——这就是我们整个意识的内容，也就是我们的生活， 除了生理上的成长与衰退。 如果你检查一下的话，就像我们现在所做的一样 ——如果你是认真的，请一起来这样做， 如果你不认真，那就不要自寻烦恼了。 今天天气很好，出去逛逛享受一下更好。 但如果你是认真的，那就观察一下你的生活 ——快感，性快感和其他形式的快感，还有恐惧和悲伤。 这就是我们意识的内容及其各种变化， 以及这局限的意识中各种复杂的活动， 这就是我们所谓的“生活”。 有信仰、有怀疑、有焦虑——你跟上了吗？ 彻底的混乱——简直就是一团糟！
27:53 And what is dying? You understand my question? Living, which we think is marvellous and dying which is the most terrible thing to happen. And, in between these two things, there is love and there is suffering. We have talked, at some length, about fear and the necessity of being completely, totally, psychologically free from fear. We went into that. And also, we talked about – together, we have talked, together, not I talked and you listened, we have talked over, together – pleasure, and the movement of pleasure, and the pursuit of pleasure. Pleasure is totally different from joy, pleasure can be invited, cultivated, joy can never be invited – it comes. But when it comes, memory takes it over and makes it into a pleasure. We’ve also talked about ecstasy, which is not hysteria, which is not neurotic, but that ecstasy can only come when we understand the meaning of pleasure. And, we are asking, what is love? Because, apparently, that plays a great part in our life. That word ‘love’ is loaded, like ‘God.’ 然后什么是死亡？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 我们认为生活是无比美好的， 而死亡则是最可怕的事。 在这两者之间，则有着爱与痛苦。 我们已经非常详细地讨论了恐惧， 以及完全地、彻底地 从心理上摆脱恐惧的必要性。我们已探究过了。 而同样的，我们也讨论过了——是一起， 我们是在一起讨论，而不是我说你听， 我们一起讨论了——快感， 快感的活动以及对快感的追求。 快感与喜悦是完全不同的， 你可以诱发和培育快感，却无法诱发喜悦——它是自己出现的。 然而当喜悦出现时，记忆就会接管，然后把它变成快感。 我们同样也讨论了狂喜， 它不是歇斯底里，也不是神经质， 而是那种狂喜的降临 只有当我们了解了快感的含义才会发生。 然后我们问，什么是爱？ 因为很显然，爱在我们的生活中扮演了一个非常重要的角色。 “爱”这个词就像“上帝”一样，承载了太多含义。
29:59 So, we have to investigate, also what it means to love and what is the difference between pleasure, love and compassion. This has been one of the problems of human beings right through the ages, right through the world wherever human beings exist. They demand, they’re wanting to love – or be loved. And when one is not loved, there’s all the anxiety, the fear, the anger, the jealousy – you follow? – all that creeps in. So, one has to, if you are at all serious, and I hope you are because we are trying, we are concerned with the transformation of the human consciousness, completely. So, one must go into this question of what is love. 所以我们也必须探究一下爱是什么意思， 以及快感、爱和慈悲有什么区别。 爱一直都是人类的问题之一， 世世代代以来，全世界 每一个地方的人都有这个问题。 人们需要，想要去爱或者被爱。 当他没有得到爱时，就会有各种焦虑、 恐惧、愤怒、嫉妒——你明白吗——所有这些都悄然进入了。 所以我们必须——如果你是认真的，我希望你是， 因为我们在试着，我们关心的是 彻底转变人类的意识。 所以我们必须探究这个问题：什么是爱。
31:09 Apparently, human beings have reduced love to pleasure. Yes? What do you say? Yes? Pleasure, sexual – love, is also implied – love of one’s country, love of a book, love of a picture... You follow? We use that word in a most extraordinary way. And also, I love my wife, or I love my husband. So, we have to go into this question, not only what it means, the word ‘love,’ the word itself, both in Sanskrit and – if you go into it – is part of desire – the meaning of that word. We are looking at the root meaning of that word, ‘desire.’ I won’t go into Sanskrit, what it means. So, we have to see what desire is and what love is. Is desire, love? Please, we are investigating, we are exploring, we are not saying it is, it is not, together, we are working this out. So, one has to go into what is desire because, apparently, in most of our lives desire plays an immense part. So, we have to understand it. What is desire? When you desire a dress, when you desire something, what is that, the movement of it? Surely, there’s first the seeing, the visual seeing, which is sensory then, there is contact, the touching, the smelling, the seeing – then sensation. You’re following all this? Seeing, contact, sensation. Right? Then thought comes in, and thought says, ‘That dress will look beautiful on me,’ which is the structure of image. So, sensation plus thought is desire and the image. You follow this? You can see this, very simply, if you look at yourself. This is the process we go through. You see a beautiful woman or a beautiful car, or beautiful man – whatever it is – seeing, contact, sensation then thought comes and desire, and the image. Right? 很显然，人类已经让爱沦为了快感。 对吗？你认为呢？对吗？ 快感，性快感；爱同样也意味着 爱自己的国家、爱一本书、爱一幅画 你跟上了吗？ 我们以各种奇特的方式来使用这个词。 还有，我爱我的妻子，或者我爱我的丈夫。 所以我们必须探究这个问题， 不仅仅是爱的含义，“爱”这个词，这个词本身， 在梵文中和……——如果你研究一下——它是欲望的一部分， 这就是爱这个词的意思。 我们在审视这个词的词根义：“欲望”。 我就不谈它在梵文中的意思了。 所以我们必须来看看什么是欲望，什么是爱。 欲望是爱吗？ 请注意，我们是在探究，我们在探索， 我们没有说它是，或者不是， 我们是一起在解决这个问题。 所以我们必须探究什么是欲望， 因为很显然，在我们大多数人的生活中， 欲望扮演着一个无比重要的角色。 所以我们必须要了解它。什么欲望呢？ 当你想要一件衣服，当你想要某个东西时， 那是什么？那种怎样的活动？ 无疑，首先是看到，眼睛看到，这是一种感官知觉， 然后是接触，你触摸它、闻它、看它 ——然后有了感官感觉。 这些你理解了吗？ 看到，接触，然后是感官感觉。对吗？ 然后思想就进来了， 思想说，“那件衣服穿我身上一定很好看”， 这就是意象的架构。 所以感官感觉加上思想就是欲望和意象。 你理解了吗？ 如果你观察一下自己的话，你会很容易就看到这点。 这就是我们所经历的过程。 你看到一个美丽的女人，或者一辆帅气的汽车， 或者一个英俊的男人——无论什么—— 看到、接触、感觉， 然后思想进来了，形成了欲望和意象。 对吗？
35:19 So, we are asking, is love, desire? Which is sensation, contact, thought or desire plus thought, and the image, picture – is that love? Or love has nothing to do with desire, which means no picture, no imaginative projections, not based on sensation. You are following all this? So, you have to find out where sensation plus thought is desire, with its image. There is sensation. It’s natural to have one’s senses highly developed, that’s healthy. To see a beautiful thing, that’s part of sensation. When thought takes it over it becomes desire. Now, please follow this. Can you see a beautiful person, a thing, a lovely tree – whatever it is – sensation, and not allow desire to come into it, which is the ending of thought? I wonder if you understand all this. This is the highest form of discipline. You understand? To see, sensation, and no thought coming into it, at all and, therefore, no desire, no image. You’ve understood what I’m saying? That requires a great sense of awareness. We’II discuss that presently, later. Awareness, concentration and attention. We’II talk about it, later. 所以我们在问，爱是欲望吗？ 感觉、接触、思想， 或者欲望加上思想，以及意象和画面 ——这是爱吗？ 还是说爱和欲望没有任何关系， 那意味着没有意象，没有想象中的投射， 也不是基于感官感觉的。这些你都明白了吗？ 所以你必须要去发现感官感觉加上思想， 就是欲望及其意象。 我们都有感官感觉。 让我们的感官感觉高度发展，这是自然的、健康的。 看到一样美丽的东西，这属于感觉的一部分。 而当思想抓住了那种感觉，它就变成了欲望。 现在，请你跟上来。 你能够看着一个美丽的人、一个东西、 一棵漂亮的树——无论什么——产生了某种感觉 却不让欲望进入，也就是停止思想吗？ 我不知道你是否理解了这些。 这是最高形式的纪律。你明白吗？ 去看，产生感觉，却完全没有思想介入进来， 由此就没有欲望，也没有意象。 你明白我说的意思了吗？ 这需要一种高度的觉察。 我们过会儿再讨论觉察。 觉察、专注和关注， 我们稍后再谈。
38:19 So, is the movement of thought, love? Or, love has nothing, whatsoever, to do with desire? Now, one has to find this out, which means you have to give your attention, be aware of the movement of desire, movement of thought, and the natural sensation – to be aware of this whole movement. Then you’II ask, you must ask, is pleasure, love? And if it is not pleasure, then what is love, or desire? Please, intellectually, logically, all this is so, logically, so-called intellectually – but the intellect is an instrument, a fragment of the totality, and by merely looking at the description, intellectually, you’re, then, only looking at it partially and, therefore, you don’t see the whole of it. So, intellect not only must see the reason, the structure of this thing but also, know its own limitation. 所以思想的活动是爱吗？ 或者说爱和欲望是毫无关系的？ 现在，我们必须把它搞清楚， 这意味着你必须去关注它， 去觉察欲望的运动和思想的运动， 以及那种自然产生的感觉， 去觉察这整个运动。 然后你会问，你肯定会问，快感是爱吗？ 如果爱不是快感， 那么爱是什么？它是欲望吗？ 请注意，从理性上、逻辑上看，爱就是这些东西， 从逻辑上，从所谓的理性上来看 ——但是理智只是一个工具，是整体中的一个碎片， 如果仅仅从理性上去看那个描述， 那么你就只是在局部地观察它， 因此你没有看到它的全貌。 所以理智必须不仅看到那个东西的原因和结构， 同样也要知道它自身的局限。
40:32 So, we are asking, is pleasure, love? Pleasure being desire, the movement of thought, sensation and the pursuit of it. And if it is not love, then what is it? Can there be jealousy when there is love? Go on, sirs. Those of you who have girls and boys and husbands and wives, and all the rest of it. Can there be love when there is attachment, when you hate, anger, when you’re hurt by another, is there love? And so, if none of these is love, then the word is not the thing. You understand? Then the word ‘love’ is not the actual state, the reality of it, the truth of it. Then what is the relationship between love and compassion? You understand? The word ‘compassion’ means passion for all, passion for everything living. That’s the meaning of that word. But that compassion cannot exist when you are, in yourself, fragmented, broken up, when there is hate, and when there is suffering. 所以我们问，快感是爱吗？ 快感就是欲望，就是思想的运动， 感觉产生，然后去追求那种感觉。 如果这不是爱，那什么是爱？ 当有了爱，还会有嫉妒吗？ 继续，先生们。 你们中那些有女朋友或男朋友，有丈夫或妻子 等等这些的人。 当你有所依附时，还会有爱吗？ 当你怨恨、愤怒，当你被对方伤害时，还会有爱吗？ 因此，如果这一切都不是爱， 那么那个词就不是真实的东西。你明白吗？ 那时“爱”这个词就不是一种实际的状态， 它不真实，它不是事实。 那么爱和慈悲的关系是什么？ 你明白吗？ “慈悲”这个词意味着对万物强烈的爱， 对一切生灵的热爱。 这就是这个词的意思。 然而这种慈悲将无法存在——如果你内心是 分裂和支离破碎的， 如果你有恨，有痛苦的话。
42:51 So, we have to examine what is suffering. Why is it that we suffer, psychologically, not biologically, physically – that we can understand when we go into the question why human beings throughout the world, carry this agony of suffering? Are you interested in all this? Not interested, that’s the wrong word, are you concerned about all this? How much time are you willing to spend on all this? Time, in the sense... You understand? Or only for this morning you are concerned, for an hour, and then slip back into our old traditions, our old ways of life which have no meaning at all, and remember, occasionally, what has been said in this tent, in this marquee, and you say, ‘By Jove, that’s true, I must go back and do something about it,’ and forget it the next minute. Or are you really, totally, completely committed to this? It’s only then you will understand, very deeply, what all this means, how to live a totally different kind of life. 所以我们必须来检视一下什么是痛苦。 为什么我们会受苦——心理上的痛苦， 而不是生理上、身体上的痛苦 ——那种痛苦我们能够理解，如果我们探究这个问题， 为什么全世界的人都背负着这种痛苦的折磨？ 你对这些有兴趣吗？ 不应该说是“有兴趣”，这个词用得不对， 而是你关心这些吗？ 你愿意在它上面花多少时间？ 时间，指的是……你明白吗？ 还是说你只今天早上关心一个小时， 然后又退回到我们旧有的传统中去， 退回到我们原有的毫无意义的生活方式中去， 然后偶尔会想起 在这个帐篷、这个营帐里某人说过的话， 然后你说，“天啊，他说的是对的， 我必须要回头，然后有所行动”， 然后下一分钟就把它忘记了。 还是说你是真正地、完全地、全身心地致力于此事？ 只有那时你才会非常深刻地理解这一切意味着什么， 如何去过一种截然不同的生活。
44:44 So, we’re now asking why human beings suffer, psychologically, which has a great bearing on the physical suffering. If there is no suffering, psychologically, then it may affect your body, completely, there is no psychosomatic disease, then. So, we must go into this question, very deeply, why human beings suffer. All religions – the Eastern religions and the Western religions – the Eastern religions have a very clear definition why human beings suffer: according to them, they say, ‘What you have done in the past you’re paying for it, now,’ which is called ‘karma,’ in Sanskrit. The Sanskrit word ‘kar’ means to do, to act. If you have not acted rightly, accurately – not according to a pattern, according to tradition, if you have acted rightly in yourself, truthfully then, there are no regrets in that action, then, that action is total. This is what we are saying, not what the Hindus said. The ancient Hindus said, ‘You have many lives. In each life, unless you act, rightly, you’re going to pay for it by next life, therefore, you suffer next life and, therefore, you learn from suffering how to act properly, rightly, accurately for the next life.’ You follow? 所以我们现在问，为什么人类在心理上会受苦 ——这和身体上的痛苦又是息息相关的。 如果没有心理上的痛苦， 也许就会彻底改变你的身体， 那时就不会有心理问题所引发的身体疾病了。 所以我们必须非常深入地探究这个问题， 为什么人类会受苦。 所有的宗教——不管是东方的还是西方的宗教—— 东方的宗教给出了非常清楚的定义 来解释为什么人类会受苦： 根据他们的观点，他们说， “你过去的所作所为，你现在要偿还”， 在梵文中这叫“业力”。 “kar”这个梵文词根的意思是去做、去行动。 如果你的行为不正确、不恰切， ——正确不是指遵循某种模式、遵循传统， 而是如果你在内心正确地、诚实地行动了， 那么那种行动中就不会留下悔恨， 那种行动就是完整的。 这是我们的说法，而不是印度人说的。 古代的印度人说，“你的生命有很多次的轮回。 在每一世，你都要正确地行动， 否则的话，来世你就要偿还， 来世你将受苦，所以你需要从痛苦中学习 如何为了来世而合理地、恰当地、准确地行动。” 你明白吗？
47:11 Here, in the Christian world, you have given up suffering, put suffering on the shoulders of one man and very comfortably settled the problem. But, actually, you’re suffering. You have got the symbol – which is rather an unfortunate symbol – you have got the symbol, and though you have said that he’s suffering for us, and yet we go on suffering. So, let’s forget the symbol, let’s forget all that and see why human beings in the world – you – suffer, go through such agonies, tears, loneliness. You understand all this? What is suffering? What is grief? And why should we suffer? Will it purify our minds – may we use that word, quickly? – will it cleanse our hearts because we suffer? On the contrary, it hasn’t done it. So, we must go into this question, very deeply. What is suffering? There’re many forms of it. One of them is loneliness. Right? Great sense of loneliness – loneliness being the feeling, the reality, that you are completely cut away from all relationship, from everything, completely isolated. Right? Don’t you know all this? Isolated, lonely, and not knowing what to do with that loneliness which is, you run away from it, escape and frightened, cover it up and do all kinds of... – get attached and all that. So, without understanding that loneliness, suffering is inevitable. You follow this? Please, are we meeting each other or am I talking to myself in my room? 而在这里，在基督教的世界里，你们放下了痛苦， 把痛苦都搁在了一个人的肩头上， 于是非常舒服地解决了这个问题。 然而实际上，你还在受苦。 你们有那个符号 ——那是一个相当不幸的符号， 你们有了那个符号， 虽然你说他在为我们受苦， 然而我们却仍旧在继续受苦。 所以，让我们忘了那个符号，让我们忘掉那一切， 然后看看为什么世界上的人——为什么你——会受苦， 会经历如此的痛苦折磨、泪水和孤独。 你明白吗？ 什么是痛苦？什么是悲伤？ 为什么我们会受苦？ 苦难可以净化——容我暂且使用这个词——我们的心灵吗？ 因为我们在受苦，这就能使我们的心灵变得纯净吗？ 恰恰相反，它做不到。 所以我们必须非常深入地去研究这个问题。 痛苦是什么？有着各种形式的痛苦。 其中一种就是孤独。对吗？ 那种巨大的孤独感 ——孤独是一种感受，一种现实存在， 你完全切断了所有的关系， 切断了和一切事物的关系，完全的孤立无援。对吗？ 你难道不知道这一切吗？ 孤立无援、孤单，不知道如何应对那种孤独， 你逃离它，逃避它并且感到害怕， 你掩盖它，做各种事情……去依附于某物，等等。 所以，如果不了解那种孤独，痛苦就在所难免了。 你理解了吗？ 拜托了，我们彼此理解了吗，还是我一个人在屋子里自言自语？
50:11 So, that’s one of the factors. Then, the factor that you like somebody, or ‘love’ somebody – to use that word in quotes – you ‘love’ somebody, and that somebody turns away from you and you are left – again isolated, jealous, hatred, sense of loss, frustration, guilt, all that is part of suffering. Then, there is the suffering for someone whom you have lost, whom you ‘loved’ dearly – again ‘love’ in quotes – and he’s dead – son, wife, husband or whatever it is, another human being is dead, and you suffer, not only through self-pity but also, you’re attached to that person, and you suddenly feel lost and in that moment of death, there’s great shock, biologically, as well as psychologically. Right? And many other forms of suffering. 所以这是导致痛苦的一个因素。 还有一个因素就是你喜欢某个人，或者“爱”某个人 ——这里的“爱”是加引号的——你“爱”着某人， 而那个人却厌恶你，你被抛弃了 ——同样的，你会感到孤独、嫉妒、怨恨、失落、 沮丧、内疚，所有这些都是痛苦的一部分。 然后还有你失去某人的那种痛苦， 那个你亲爱的人，你所“爱”的人——“爱”还是加引号的—— 他死了——儿子、妻子、丈夫，无论是谁， 另一个人死了， 你感到痛苦， 这种痛苦不只是出于自怜， 还因为你依赖那个人， 于是在他死去的那一刻，你突然感到迷失，有个巨大的打击 ——既包括生理上，也包括心理上的打击。 对吗？还有很多其他形式的痛苦。
51:59 Human beings suffer and find many, many explanations for that suffering – ‘God is just, he knows why I’m suffering, eventually, he’II solve my suffering.’ Suffering and seeking comfort in some theory, in some law, in some belief. Or, the Christian world says, ‘Have faith,’ and so on. So, what is it that is suffering? ‘Me.’ You understand? ‘I’ am suffering.’ What is that ‘me,’ what is ‘you’? The form, the name – right? The name, the form, the various characteristics – greed, envy, pain, anxiety, hope, despair, depression – a lot of accumulated ideas, all that is ‘you.’ Aren’t you? Which are all memories, words. So, that image of yourself is suffering, or that ‘you’ is suffering. Now, will you please listen to it, carefully. Human beings suffer. And we have escaped from it, through reason, through logic, through explanations, through various forms of comfort, entertainment, religious, as well as ordinary entertainment, every form of escape from that suffering. If you don’t escape and, actually, without any movement going outwardly, remain completely with that suffering. Remain – you understand what I’m saying? That is, not move away from that central fact of suffering – that gives you tremendous stability. Are you understanding all this? No, you don’t! 人类在受苦，并且为痛苦找到了无数的解释， “上帝是公平的，他知道我为什么受苦， 他最终将会解决我的痛苦”。 我们痛苦，然后在某些理论、 法则和信仰中找寻安慰。 或者就如基督教所说的，“要有信仰”，等等这些。 那么，是什么东西在受苦？是“我”。 你明白吗？是“我”在受苦。 那么什么是“我”，什么是“你”？ 就是那个外形，那个名字——不是吗？ 名字、外形、各种特质 ——贪婪、妒忌、痛苦、焦虑、希望、绝望、沮丧—— 积累起来的无数观念，这一切就是“你”。不是吗？ 全都是记忆、词语。 所以是你的那个形象在受苦， 或者说是那个“你”在受苦。 现在，请你认真地听一下。 人类遭受着痛苦。 然后我们逃避它，通过理性、通过逻辑、 通过各种解释、通过各种形式的安慰 和娱乐——既包括宗教的娱乐，也包括普通的娱乐——来逃避它， 用各种办法来逃避那种痛苦。 而如果你不逃避， 完全没有任何向外的活动， 完全和那种痛苦共处， 与它共处 ——你明白我在说什么吗？ 也就是，不离开痛苦这个核心事实， 就会给予你超凡的安定。 你理解这些吗？不，你没理解！
55:05 Look, you suffer. See, understand that suffering is not resolved through escape, through suppression, through any form of rationalisation. Suffering is there. Be with it, completely, without any movement. You’ve understood this, now, surely? The explanation, you’ve understood, intellectually or verbally, the explanation – but to do it, is quite another matter. Now, when you do it, that is, without any movement of thought, any movement of escape, any movement of suppression or rationalisation, to be with it, completely, then out of that comes passion. I wonder if you understand all this. And that is compassion. Have you understood something? No. It doesn’t matter. Watch, look at yourself and see how you suffer, the urge to escape from it, see the absurdity of escape, the rationalisation, seeking comfort, all that’s a wastage of energy, moving away from the central fact of suffering. You understand? Remain with it. Then, that suffering undergoes a tremendous change which becomes passion. I haven’t time to go into more than this, that’s up to you. 你瞧，你很痛苦。 你要看到和明白，这种痛苦是无法通过逃避、 通过压抑、通过任何形式的合理化来解决的。 痛苦就在那儿。 完全地与它待在一起，没有任何动作。 你现在明白了，真的吗？这个解释你已经明白了， 智力上或字面上你理解了这个解释， 但是做起来就完全是另一回事了。 当你这样做时，也就是没有任何思想活动， 也没有任何逃避、压抑或合理化的活动， 只是完全和它共处， 那么从中就会产生出热情。 我想知道你是否明白了这些。 而那种热情就是慈悲。 你明白一些东西了吗？没有明白。没关系。 请观察一下你自己，看看你是如何受苦的， 那种想要逃避痛苦的冲动，看清逃避的荒谬， 把痛苦合理化，寻求安慰，所有这些都是在损耗能量， 它们都远离了痛苦这个核心事实。 你明白吗？和它待在一起。 然后那种痛苦就会经历一次巨大的改变， 它会变成热情。 我没有时间多做探讨了，这取决于你。
57:24 And also, we must go into this question of death. Do you want to go into this? Questioner: Yes. 我们还必须探究死亡的问题。 你们想探讨这个问题吗？

问：是的。
57:46 K: Why? You know, please, all these things that we are talking about are very, very serious and it is only the very serious that live, not the flippant, not the casual – you know, all the rest of it. It’s only a man who is deeply, profoundly concerned with all this, such a man lives. So, we must go into this question of death, which is very complex. We said we must understand the question of time, apart from the chronological time of yesterday, today and tomorrow – sunrises, sunsets – divided into twenty four hours, we’re not talking about that. That’s necessary, that exists, and if that doesn’t play a part in your life, then you’II lose your bus. But we’re talking of something else, psychologically. Because we are in despair, fearful, then there is always hope – hope something will take place, tomorrow. So, that is the movement of time. 克：为什么？ 请注意，你知道的， 我们讨论的所有这些东西都是非常非常严肃的， 只有非常认真严肃的人才是在生活， 而不是那些轻浮的、随便的——你知道的——等等那类人。 只有一个深切地、极度关心所有这些的人， 这样的人才算是活着。 所以我们必须探究死亡这个问题，这个问题很复杂。 我们说过必须了解时间的问题， 除了那种年月日顺序的时间——昨天、今天和明天， 日出、日落，一天分成二十四个小时， 我们不是在谈论这种时间。这种时间是需要的，也是存在的， 如果这种时间没有在你生活中起作用， 你就会错过公共汽车。 然而我们在谈的是另一种东西，那种心理上的时间。 因为我们处于绝望中，充满恐惧， 所以总是存在着某种希望——希望明天会发生某些事。 因此这就是时间的运动。
59:39 What is the relationship of time to death? You understand? One has lived ten years, fifty years or eighty years or a hundred years – a life that has been painful, anxious and all the rest of it, an empty life, a wasted life, and that life comes to an end, both biologically and psychologically. I’m going to go into all this. And one clings to the known and avoids the unknown – the known suffering, the known pain, the known pleasure, the known fears – one clings to all that which you call ‘living.’ And one is frightened to let go all that which you have to do when death comes. So, there’s the interval between the living and the dying, the process of time. Then, what is it that dies? Biologically, we have lived so unintelligently because biologically, physically, the body has its own intelligence. I don’t know if you know anything about all this, if you have worked at it. It has its own intelligence, if you leave it, if you don’t spoil it through taste, through gluttony, through smoke, drink, drugs and all the rest of the business that one goes through. If you don’t go through that, that is, through taste, habit, custom, tradition, then the body has its own intelligence. That body, organically dies, the organ dies. We know that. But also, we say, ‘There is something which is me, which must continue because, after all, I’ve collected so much experience. I want to finish that book before I die. I must be successful, give me another few more years,’ and so on and so on. So, what is it that is ‘me’ – that says, ‘I don’t want to die, I must have some kind of continuity’? You understand? This is our craving, right through life. From the ancient days, from the Egyptians down to the present day, and before the Egyptians – the ancient Egyptians, not the modern Egypt – this has been the problem. A continuity and an ending. The desire, the immense drive to continue. ‘My pleasure, I want it fulfilled, tomorrow.’ When you say, ‘There is no tomorrow,’ it becomes a tremendous despair. You understand? 时间与死亡是什么关系？ 你明白吗？ 一个人也许活了十年、五十年、八十年或一百年 ——他的生活一直都是痛苦的、充满焦虑的，等等， 一种空虚的生活，虚度光阴， 然后那种生活会走到终点，既包括生理上也包括心理上。 这些我都会来探究。 我们执着于已知的事物，回避未知的事物 ——已知的苦难、痛苦、快感和恐惧， 我们执着于这一切，然后称之为“生活”。 我们害怕放开它们， 而当死亡降临的时候，你不得不放开它们。 所以在生死之间存在着间隔， 也就是时间的过程。 那么，是什么死去了呢？ 就生理上而言，我们生活得如此缺乏智慧， 因为就生理和身体而言，身体有其自身的智慧。 我不知道你是否了解这方面的事，不知道你是否研究过。 身体有其自身的智慧， 如果你不去干扰它，不去糟蹋它——通过过重的口味， 通过暴饮暴食，通过抽烟、喝酒、毒品， 等等所有这些我们会做的事。 如果你不去做这些事， 也就是那些口味、习惯、风俗、传统， 那么身体就会有其自身的智慧。 那个身体、机体会死去，器官会死去。 这是我们都知道的。 然而我们说，“还存在着一个东西，那就是‘我’， 这个‘我’必须延续下去， 因为毕竟我已经积累了如此多的经验。 我要在我死前完成那本书。 我必须获得成功，所以再让我多活几年吧”， 等等这些。 所以，那个“我”是什么，那个说，“我不想死， 我必须以某种方式延续下去”的“我”是什么？你明白吗？ 这是我们一辈子都在渴望的东西。 从最古老的年代开始，从埃及人一直到现在， 甚至在埃及人之前——是古埃及人，不是现代的—— 一直都存在着这个问题。 某种延续抑或结束。 那种渴望，那种想要延续的巨大驱动力。 “我的快感，我想在明天获得满足”。 而当你说“并不存在明天”时，这就会令人无比绝望。 你明白吗？
1:03:44 So, there is death. So, we have to investigate, together, not accepting authority, because I’m not your authority or your guru. To me, gurus are dangerous in spiritual life. You have to find out, for yourself, what is it that is ‘me,’ how it came into being, why it has taken such tremendous importance in our life, and why is it that it’s so frightened of death. The ‘me’ has come through words, through experience, through knowledge – the ‘me,’ which is the form, the name, all the bundle of memories, knowledge, experience, the past, pleasures, pain – all that consciousness with its content is ‘me.’ Right? Please see it, for yourself. You say, ‘That’s not only me, that’s only mainly memory, therefore, it’s a material process but there is a ‘me’ which is spiritual. The Hindus and others maintain and, probably, some of you maintain that there is something spiritual in ‘me.’ ‘Me’ is the essence of that spirit. When you say the ‘me’ is the essence of that spirit, covered over by all kinds of darkness, like an onion with many, many layers, that essence of the highest is ‘me’ – that’s still part of thinking. Right? When you feel that the essence is ‘me’ that’s part of your process of thought. Somebody has put it into your mind or you have invented it, yourself. I wonder if you’re following all this? You may not believe it but thought has created this. But thought is a material process because thought is knowledge, experience stored up as memory in the brain and that response to that memory is thinking. We went through all that the other day, we won’t go into it. So, thought is a material process. Though, thought can say, ‘There is spirit in me,’ but it is a material process. When you say, ‘I have faith in God,’ it is a material process. The faith in God, God being your projection of what you think is the most beautiful, omnipotent, all the rest of it, it is still a process of thought. So, there is nothing – please, bear with me, go into it, very deeply – there is nothing but the movement of thought which has created the ‘me’ or the essence of the spirit. It is still thought, so it is still a material process. 所以存在着死亡。 所以我们必须一同去探究，而不只是接受权威的说法， 因为我并不是你的权威或古鲁。 对我而言，在灵性生活中，那些古鲁是很危险的。 你必须自己去搞清楚那个“我”是什么， 它是如何出现的， 为什么它在我们的生活中会变得如此重要， 为什么它如此害怕死亡。 那个“我”是经由词语、 经验、知识而产生的， 那个“我”就是一个模样、一个名字， 那一大堆的记忆、知识、经验、 过去、快感、痛苦 ——所有这些意识及其内容就是“我”。对吗？ 请你自己去看清这一点。 你说，“那不是我，那主要是一些记忆罢了， 因此它是一种物质化的过程， 但是还存在着一个灵性的‘我’。” 印度教徒和其他一些人坚持认为，或许你们中某些人也认为 那个“我”里面存在着某种灵性。 “我”则是那种灵性的核心。 当你说“我”就是那种灵性的核心， 只不过它被各种黑暗蒙蔽了，就像一个洋葱被层层包裹起来， 而那个最终的核心就是“我” ——这个说法仍旧是思想的一部分，不是吗？ 当你觉得那个核心就是“我”， 这也是你思想过程的一部分。 是别人将它灌输到了你的脑中，或者是你自己发明了它。 我不知道你有没有跟上？ 你也许不相信，但的确是思想制造了这种观点。 但思想是一种物质过程，因为思想就是知识 和经验，作为记忆储存在了大脑中， 对那种记忆的反应就是思考。 我们前几天已经详细讨论过了，现在就不深入讲了。 所以思想是一种物质化的过程。 虽然思想可以说，“在我里面有着灵性”， 但它仍旧是一种物质过程。 当你说“我信仰上帝”时，这就是一种物质化的过程。 你信仰上帝，但上帝 是你投射出来的你认为最美丽的、 无所不能的等等这些东西，但它仍旧是一种思想过程。 所以，这一切只不过是 ——请原谅我，深入地去探究它—— 只不过是思想的运动， 思想活动制造出了那个“我”，或者“灵性的核心”。 但它仍旧是思想，所以仍然是一种物质化的过程。
1:07:50 So, one clings to the known and one is frightened of the unknown, which is death. Right? Do you understand this? So, time is the living, a long interval, and death. We said time is a movement, movement of thought as measure, so many lives, so many years – which is all measurement. Now, can that time stop? Which means the living and the dying, close together. You understand? This takes so much explanation, all this. That is, death means the ending of that which has continued. Right? See how important it is that that which continues becomes mechanical. Right? And, therefore, there is nothing new, thought may invent something new, like the jet, it’s something new, or the Einstein theories – I won’t go into all that. So, thought can invent something new but we’re not talking about that invention, we are talking about: thought can invent something beyond death but it’s still the movement of thought. So, we are saying death means the ending of a continuity, which is time. That which continues means time – tradition, in your faith, in your beliefs, in your gods, is the movement of time. 因此，我们执着于已知的事物， 害怕未知的事物——也就是死亡。 对吗？你理解了吗？ 所以时间就是生活，经过一段长长的间隔，然后死去。 我们说过时间就是一种运动，那种作为度量的思想活动， 无数世的轮回，无数年岁——这些都是度量。 那么，这种时间能够停止吗？ 那意味着生活与死亡紧密地结合在了一起。 你明白吗？ 这些东西花费了如此多的解释。 也就是说， 死亡就意味着结束那个一直在延续的东西。对吗？ 看到这一点是多么的重要：延续的事物会变得机械化。 不是吗？因此就不会有任何崭新的东西。 思想也许会发明一些新东西，就像喷气机，它是某种新东西， 或者爱因斯坦相对论——这些我就不深入讲了。 所以思想可以发明一些新的东西， 然而我们在谈的并不是那些发明， 我们在谈的是：思想可以发明某种超越死亡的东西， 但那种东西仍旧是思想的运动。 所以我们说死亡就意味着结束延续的东西，也就是时间。 延续的事物就意味着时间 ——那些传统，你的信念、你的信仰、你的神明中， 都是时间的运动。
1:10:21 So, we are saying, to die to the things known, now. You understand my question? To die to your attachments, now, which is going to take place when you die. You understand? Ah, this is really very serious because when we die, what takes place? The organism with its brain dies, comes to an end, the brain deteriorates. The brain which contained memory in its cells as experience and knowledge, that brain withers away. So, there is ending of thought. And, can there be an ending of thought while living? You understand my question? Which is dying now, not fifty years later, which doesn’t mean you commit suicide, don’t jump over the bridge. Which means dying to your pleasure. Of course, you will die to your pain, that’s very easy, that’s what one want to do, but one wants to cling to the pleasure, to the picture that you have created about pleasure and the pursuit of it. That, when the brain decays, is going to end. You understand what I’m talking...? So, to die instantly to attachment, to jealousy, to fear – die. That’s one problem. Therefore, when there is such death, there is, then, non-continuity which means the ending of time, therefore, a totally different dimension of consciousness. I haven’t time to go into all that. Totally different kind of consciousness, which is not the consciousness with all its content, which is ‘me,’ but a totally different kind, a dimension. 所以我们说，此刻就让那些已知的事物死去。 你理解我的问题了吗？ 让你的执着死去，就在此刻 ——这件事本来要在你死的时候才会发生。 你明白了吗？ 啊，这是非常严肃的事， 因为当我们死去时，会发生什么？ 机体组织和大脑死亡了，结束了， 大脑朽坏了。 大脑细胞中包含着作为经验与知识的记忆， 这个大脑枯萎了。 因此思想结束了。 那么能否在活着的时候就让思想结束？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 也就是在此刻就死去，而不是在五十年之后， 它的意思不是让你去自杀，所以不要去跳河自尽。 它意味着让你的“快感”死去。 毫无疑问，你愿意让你的“痛苦”死去，这是很容易的， 这是我们都想做的事，但我们想抓住那些快感， 抓住你制造出来的那幅快感的画面，然后去追求它。 而那幅画面在大脑衰败时也将会结束。 你明白我说的意思吗？ 所以，立即让那些执着、 嫉妒和恐惧死去，让它们死去。 这是一个问题。 因此，当有了这种死亡， 那么就不会有延续了——这意味着时间的结束， 由此就会产生一个维度完全不同的意识。 我没有时间去展开这些了。 那是一种完全不同的意识， 它不是那种包含其所有内容的意识——也就是“我”， 而是一种完全不同的维度。
1:13:18 Now, I don’t die now. One doesn’t die because one says, ‘I must have a little more time. Please, give me a little more time. I want to enjoy my life. I’ve got a new car, a new wife, a new pleasure, a new job, please, don’t let me die, immediately.’ So, what happens to that man or woman – please, this is important for you to understand all this – what happens to that man or woman who says, ‘I’m satisfied with things as they are. I’ve got my property. I’ve got a good wife, a husband, money in the bank, and to hell with everything else!’ What happens to that man when he dies? You understand my question? 但我并不想现在就死去。 我们不愿死去，因为我们说，“我必须再多活一些时间。 请再多给我一些时间。我想要享受我的生活。 我有了新车、新妻子，有了新的快感、新的工作， 求求你，不要让我马上就死去。” 所以在那个男人或女人身上会发生什么 ——请注意，了解这一切对你来说非常重要—— 对于那样的男人或女人来说会发生什么呢 ——他们说，“我满足于事情的现状， 我有自己的财产，我有一个好妻子或好丈夫， 有大笔银行存款，所以让其他东西都见鬼去吧！” 这样一个人，他死去时会怎样？你明白我的问题吗？
1:14:13 There are two types of beings in the world: the one who dies to everything known – the known is the structure of thought, put together as the ‘me’ – the attachments, the fears, the loneliness, the despair and, therefore, out of despair, hope – all that he dies to – to all that there is instant ending. Ending of sorrow is the beginning of compassion. You think about it. Don’t think about it, do it! Now, what happens to the man who doesn’t do all this, who is lazy, indifferent, becomes serious about something which is trivial, or he thinks it is very important to follow a guru – all that silly stuff – what happens to that man, or woman? You understand my question? Have you understood my question? There are two types of human beings: the one who is dying every minute of the day, to everything he has gathered, therefore, he’s never gathering anything. You understand? Psychologically, he’s never gathering anything, therefore, there is no ‘me,’ at all, all the time. And there is the other man, what happens to him? So, what is the other man? The other man is the human being or the woman, the human being, like every other human being in the world. He has lived in sorrow, in despair, in agony, tears, like the rest of the human beings. So, there is this stream of sorrow – you understand? – the stream, the river of agony, the river of pleasure, the river of violence, all that, he’s in that stream, he has always been in that stream. Right? It’s only the man who steps out of the stream who is different. Otherwise, he’s like the rest. I know this is a sad picture – you understand? – this is really a great sorrow, to see this happening. Therefore, the man who sees this happening is compassionate. Therefore, his responsibility is to convey all this. You understand what I’m saying? 这个世界上有两类人： 一种是让一切已知之物都死去 ——已知就是思想的结构，它们拼凑成了“我”—— 那些执着、恐惧、孤独、绝望， 从那种绝望中又生出了希望 ——他让这一切都死去——这一切都立即结束了。 悲伤的结束就是慈悲的开始。请你思考一下。 不是去思考，而是去这样做！ 那么，对于一个不这样做的人来说，会发生什么呢？ 这个人是懒惰的、冷漠的， 他对一些琐碎之事非常认真， 或者他认为跟随某个古鲁非常重要——所有这些愚蠢的东西， 这个男人或女人会怎样？你理解我的问题吗？ 你明白我的问题了吗？ 有两种人： 一种人每一天每一分钟都在死去， 让他收集积累起来的每一样东西都死去， 因此他从不积累任何东西。你明白吗？ 他内心从不积累任何东西， 因此始终都没有“我”。 还有另一种人，他会怎样？ 那么，另一种人是什么人？ 另一种人是普普通通的男人或女人， 就跟世上的其他所有人一样。 他生活在悲伤、绝望、痛苦与泪水之中， 就像其他人一样。 所以存在着这股悲伤的洪流 ——你明白吗？——那条痛苦的洪流、大河， 那条充满快感、暴力等等的大河， 他就在这股洪流中，他一直都在这股洪流中。 对吗？ 只有步出这股洪流的人才是与众不同的。 否则的话，他就和其他人没什么两样。 我知道这种景象令人难过——你明白吗？—— 看到这些事情发生是一种巨大的悲伤。 因此，那个看到它发生的人是慈悲的。 所以他的责任就是把这一切告诉众人。 你明白我说的意思了吗？
1:17:49 So, immortality is not ‘me’ surviving, eternally – until the Angel Gabriel blows the horn – but there is immortality that is beyond death, when time has come to an end. You understand? Time as a movement of thought and measure, which is our consciousness. When that consciousness empties itself, completely, then there is a state that is totally different. The emptying of this consciousness with its content is part of meditation, which we’II discuss, tomorrow. 所以，不朽并不是指那个“我”永远地活下去 ——直到加布里天使吹响了号角， 而是，当时间结束时， 就会存在一种超越死亡的不朽。你理解了吗？ 时间作为一种思想及度量活动，它就是我们的意识。 当那种意识彻底清空了自己， 那时就会有一种截然不同的状态。 清空这种意识及其内容 就是冥想的一部分， 这个我们明天再来讨论。