克里希那穆提 - 存在爱这件事吗？

Krishnamurti Subtitles

BR77D1 - 存在爱这件事吗？
1977年8月30日
英国布洛克伍德公园第一次公开讨论

0:21	I believe we are going to have a discussion but I’m afraid that word implies that we are trying to find truth through argument, debate. And with so many people, I’m afraid discussion is not possible. Nor is dialogue – dialogue being a conversion between two people, people who are friendly. And that is also not possible with so many people. And also we thought of having about ten or twelve people in front here, discuss, have a dialogue with them and those who want to join in, come in, also. But that, also, is not possible. So, what shall we do? Shall we have a question and answer meeting, or a dialogue with two or three people who are seriously enough concerned with their life, with their surroundings and with environment, with politics and so on to have a dialogue with those few people, and those who wish to join, can, so that they are not chosen specially or that anyone is excluded? So, what shall we do?	我相信我们将会进行一场讨论，但是我害怕（讨论）这个词意味着我们尝试通过争辩，辩论发现真理。同时我也害怕和这么多人在一起，讨论是不可能的。对话也不可能 ——两个人之间的对话，两个友善的人之间。这在这么多人之间也不可能。或者我们可以让十几个人坐在前边，讨论，然后和他们对话，那些想加入的人也可以加入。但是这也不可能。所以，我们要做什么？我们应该进行问答会吗？或者在两三个真正严肃的，关心他们生命，关心他们周围发生的事，周围的环境，政治等等的人，和这一小群人对话，那些想加入的人也可以加入，所以他们不是被特意选出的，而其他人被排除在外？所以，我们应该做什么？
2:06	Questioner: The latter.	提问者：后者。
2:08	K: Which is, question and answer?	克：问答会？
2:10	Q: No, dialogue.	问：不是，对话。
2:12	Q: A few people talking.	问：一小群人来讨论。
2:15	K: You want a few people talking? Q: Yes.	克：你想让一小群人来说？问：是的。
2:20	K: Now, who is going to choose the few people? If I choose, or if somebody else chooses, you will consider they are our favourites, and…	克：现在，谁来选出这一小群人？如果我或者其他人来选，你会认为他们是我们偏爱的，然后
2:42	Q: Let those who wish to be part of dialogue come forward.	问：让那些想参加对话的人往前坐。
2:49	Q: Questions and answers are the best, please.	问：问答会才是最好的。
2:51	K: Question and answer. Would you like that?	克：问答会。你们喜欢这个吗？
3:11	So, would you like a question and answer meeting? Or a dialogue between two or three people? And you choose those two or three people – not the speaker or somebody else.	所以，你们想要一场问答会？或者是两三个人之间的对话？你们来选出这两三个人 ——不是演讲者或者其他人。
3:32	Q: Play it by ear.	问：用耳朵听。
3:35	K: Play by ear – how do you do that?	克：用耳朵听——你要怎么做？
3:47	Can we start off, if I may suggest, with a question and answer meeting, and then see how that works out. And then, out of these questions and answers, we’ll find who can really have a dialogue, who can exchange, who can say, ’Look, I don’t understand this. What do you mean by this? Let us talk about it. Let’s go into it much more so that there is a conversation between the speaker and yourself. Can we try that? Question and answer first, then a dialogue – that is, a conversation between two or three people. We’ll see how this works out.	我们可以开始吗？如果我可以建议的话，先从问答会开始，然后看看会怎样。从问答会中，我们会找到谁真的可以进行对话，可以分享，谁会说，“我不理解这个。你说这个是什么意思？让我们一起讨论。让我们再深入一些。” 所以，这样你和演讲者之间就会有对话。我们可以试一下吗？首先是问答，然后是对话 ——两三个人之间的讨论。我们会看一下这样可行吗。
4:45	Q: Can I put one question? K: Yes, sir. Sir, now, just a minute. Before you put questions, please, we are asking questions affecting our lives, our daily life. How to bring about, or rather, is it possible to bring about a radical transformation in our daily existence, in our consciousness, a radical change in our whole way of thinking, looking, observing, acting? That’s what we are concerned with. And if you ask questions, hypothetical questions, or theoretical questions, I’m afraid, I won’t answer. That’s fairly simple and clear. So, please, ask questions directly concerning yourself because you are the rest of the humanity, and if you want to find out how to resolve your problems, how to look at life as a totally different thing, from that, ask questions, then it is worthwhile. But if you ask questions which are not actual, factual but theoretical then, I’m afraid, we won’t have… at least, I won’t be able to answer them.	问：我能问一个问题吗？克：当然，先生。现在，先生，在你提问之前，只占用一分钟，我们是在问影响我们日常生活的问题。如何或者是否有可能带来，我们日常存在的根本性转变，我们意识的根本性转变，我们整个思考，观察，行动的方式。这是我们关心的。如果你问假设性的问题，或者理论的问题，我担心，我不会回答。这很简单，也很清楚。所以，请直接问困扰你们的问题，因为你就是其余的人类，如果你想发现如何解决你的问题，如何用完全不同视角看待生活，从这一点，问问题，就会是有价值的。但是如果你问不实际的，理论的问题，那我害怕，我们不会有至少，我不会回答他们。
6:27	Q: May I ask a question? K: Just a minute. He’s asking.	问：我能问一个问题吗？克：稍等一下。他在问。
6:31	Q: I feel that there is a common thing among us all, at times. And I can’t see it, I can’t hear it, but I think there is something. Can you tell us what it is about? I can’t describe it.	问：我感觉此刻我们之间有一种相同的东西。我看不到，听不见它，但是我认为存在这样的东西。你能告诉我们它是什么吗？我没法描述它。
6:47	K: What is the problem, sir?	克：先生，是什么问题？
6:49	Q: That there is something common among all human beings, what is that?	问：所以人类之中有某些相似的东西，它是什么？
6:56	K: We have explained, very carefully, during these talks, and in the past, that, wherever you go in the world, human beings are caught in a trap of sorrow, misery, confusion, uncertainty, disorder and so on, so on. That is the common factor of all human beings living on this unfortunate earth.	克：我们已经仔细地解释过了，在过去的那些讨论中，也就是，无论你走到世界哪个角落，人类都被困在悲伤，痛苦，困惑，不确定，失序等等之中。这就是全人类共同的因素，我们都生活在这个不幸的地球上。
7:28	Q: Do you see that the psychological fear, greed and violence in each one of us, is the direct transformation of the physical violence towards other sentients for profit and food? Or in other words, butchering animals is the prime cause of our misery?	问：你是否认为我们每个人心理的恐惧，贪婪，暴力，是我们为了食物和利益，对其他有情生物的生理的暴力的结果？或者换个词来说，屠杀动物，是否是我们痛苦的基本原因？
7:52	K: I haven’t understood you. Killing animals...	克：我不理解你。杀害动物
7:55	Q:...for the food and profit.	问：为了食物和利益。
7:57	K: What is the question, sir? What is the question?	克：问题是什么，先生？
8:00	Q: Do you think that the psychological fear, greed and violence in each one of us is the direct transformation of physical violence over the sentients?	问：你是否认为我们每个人心理的恐惧，贪婪，暴力，是我们对其他有情生物的生理的暴力的结果？
8:11	K: Oh, I see. Biologists and others have said that in the process of evolution we are the result of the animal and so on. The animals are violent, therefore, we have inherited that violence. Now, what is the question? The question is whether human beings can be free of that violence.	克：哦，我明白了。生物学家和其他人说过演化的过程，我们是动物的结果，等等。动物是暴力的，因此，我们继承了这种暴力。现在，问题是什么？问题是人类是否能从暴力中解放出来。
8:42	Q: That’s right.	问：对。
8:44	K: Are you really concerned about it? Q: Yes, sir.	克：你真的对这个感兴趣吗？问：是的，先生。
8:50	K: And that is a matter of daily occupation that you really, deeply, profoundly, seriously – there’s an urge to be free of that?	克：这是一件真实的，深深的，严肃的占据你日常生活的事吗？ ——你有摆脱它的急迫感吗？
9:05	Q: Yes.	问：是的。
9:06	K: Just a minute, sir. That’s the question I’m asking. If it is, then let’s talk about it. Otherwise, if you say, ‘Well, theoretically, I’d like to be free but I’m going to kill animals all the same,’ then it has no meaning.	克：先生，就一分钟。这是我要问的问题。如果是这样，那让我们讨论一下。然而，如果你说，“好，理论上，我想摆脱它，但是同时，我还是想杀害动物。” 那它就没有任何意义。
9:25	So, what is violence? How does violence arise? And there is not only physical violence, hitting each other, throwing bombs at each other, killing each other, but, also, there are various forms of violence. It is violence when human beings are in conflict, psychologically. That’s a form of violence, surely? It’s another form of violence when we imitate, when we conform, when we follow – all those are indications, like being angry and so on, are a form of violence. Right? So, when we talk about violence, we are not only talking about psychological factors of violence but, also, the physical actions of violence – hitting each other, throwing bombs at each other and so on, so on. The terrorists, the totalitarian states which suppress people – all that is a form of violence. Right?	所以，暴力是什么？暴力如何产生？不只有物理的暴力，互相攻击，投掷炸弹，互相杀害，除此之外，还有各种形式的暴力。当人类心理陷入冲突时，就存在暴力。这就是暴力的一种形式，对吗？当我们模仿，屈从，追随，等等此类行为时，就有暴力，就像生气，等等，是一种形式的暴力。对吗？所以，让我们讨论一下暴力，我们不只是讨论暴力的心理因素，此外还有，暴力的物理行动 ——攻击彼此，对彼此扔炸弹，等等。恐怖分子，压制人们的极权主义 ——所有这些都是暴力的一种形式，对吗？
10:45	Now, is it possible to be free of that violence, psychologically? Let’s begin first, psychologically, not physically. We are saying, is it possible? It is only possible, isn’t it, when you can come face to face with it and deal with it – right? – not have theories, ideals of non-violence and all the rest of it. Right? That is an escape from the fact. I want to be free from violence, therefore, there must be an awareness of all the factors of violence, and observe them, not run away from them, not say, ‘I must change them, I must become non-violent.’ In becoming non-violent, you are in conflict. Right? Because you are violent and you want to become non-violent and, therefore, you make an effort and that very effort is a form of violence. Right? Can we go on from there?	现在有可能摆脱这种暴力吗？从心理上。首先从心理开始，不是生理上。我们问，这可能吗？这只有在你和暴力面对面来处理它，不是通过理论，通过非暴力的观点，等等，才可以，对吗？这些都是对现实的逃避。我想摆脱暴力，因此，必须有对暴力的所有因素的觉醒，观察它们，不是说，“我必须改变它们，我必须变得非暴力。” 在变得非暴力的过程中，你在发生冲突，对吗？因为你是暴力的，而你想变得不暴力，因此，你在努力，这种努力本身就是暴力的一种形式。对吗？我们可以从这一点出发吗？
12:15	So, is it possible to be free of violence and look at the whole issue, the complex problem of violence, psychologically? Which means, are we imitating, conforming, adjusting ourselves to a pattern which we, or others, have established for us? All those are symptoms of violence, like anger, hatred, jealousy. Now, can we remain with that factor of violence and be aware, choicelessly, of the whole structure of violence? Will you do it? Are you doing it, now? Are you doing it, sir, the questioner? Is the questioner, who put that question, is he doing it? Or is it just a theory about violence? Where there is division between man and man, woman and man and so on, there must be conflict, which is a form of violence. Nationalism and so on is a form of violence. Obviously. When there are two dogmatic beliefs, and each trying to convert the other, opposing each other, it’s a form of violence. So, are we aware of this factor in our life? And when you become aware of it, what are you going to do? Just say, ‘Yes, I’m aware of it’ but carry on with violence? Therefore, it becomes a very serious matter. If one is really to be free of violence, to look at it, to live with it, to understand it, to go into it and see all the multiple forms of violence, totally be acquainted with it – and when you are acquainted with something, it flowers and then withers away. You don’t have to fight it. Will you do it? That’s not…	所以，是否有可能摆脱暴力看着这整个问题，暴力问题的复杂性？在心理上。这就意味着，我们是否在模仿，遵从，调整我们自己适应一个模式，一个我们自己或者他人为我们建立的模式？这一切都是暴力的征兆，就像愤怒，仇恨，嫉妒。现在，我们能和这些暴力的因素共处，同时无选择的觉察暴力的整个结构吗？你会这样做吗？你现在在这样做吗？提问者，你在这么做吗？那个提问的人，你在这么做吗？或者它只是一个关于暴力的理论？哪里有人与人之间的分裂，男人和女人之间，等等，哪里就必然有冲突，也就是一种形式的暴力。国家主义等等，都是暴力的一种形式。显然。当存在两种教义的信仰时，每一种都要尝试转化另一种，反对另一种，这就是一种形式的暴力。所以，我们清楚我们生活中的这些因素吗？当你觉察到它们时，你会做什么？只是，“是的，我觉察到了。”然后继续着暴力？因此，它变成了一件非常严肃的事。如果一个人真的摆脱了暴力，看着它，和它一起生活，理解它，走进它，看到暴力所有复杂的形式，完全理解了它，当你理解某事时，它就会绽放，然后枯萎，你不需要去和它对抗。你会这么做吗？这不是
15:03	Q: Are you saying that we become violent?	问：你是在说，我们要变得暴力吗？
15:16	K: We are not saying we become violent, we are violent.	克：我没有说我们要变得暴力，我们就是暴力的。
15:20	Q: He’s not sure what you mean by ‘flowering’?	问：他不理解，你说的“绽放”是什么意思？
15:25	K: Sir, look. I’m violent. I observe it. Because I don’t run away from it, I don’t suppress it, I don’t transform it into something else, as non-violence, which is absurd – the transformation of violence into non-violence is stupidity. It has no meaning. So, as I am violent, I let it come out – not in action. Let it flower. Let it grow. As you watch it, it grows and dies. Haven’t you done all this? That is, sir, when you are angry, at that moment of anger you’re not aware, you’re... out! Then, a second later, you say, ‘I have been angry.’ Right? So, you have divided yourself as not being angry and that you have been angry. So, there is a division between the observer who says, ‘I have been angry and I must not be angry.’ Right? So, the division brings about conflict, saying, ‘I mustn’t be angry. How am I to get rid of my anger?’ and so on and so on. Whereas, if you are aware of anger, as it arises and let it come out non-verbally, non-actively, not say, ‘I’m going to hit you.’ Let it flower, let it come out, and you will see it disappears, very quickly, and withers away. And, if you do it properly, you’re never angry again. Finished.	克：先生，你看，我是暴力的。我观察它。因为，我没有从它身上跑开，我没有压制它，我们没有把它转化成其他什么东西，例如“非暴力”，这很荒谬，把暴力转化成非暴力是很愚蠢的，这毫无意义。所以，我是暴力的，我让它展示出来——不是以行动的方式。让它绽放。让它生长。当你观察它，它就会生长然后死去。你没有做这些吗？也就是，先生，当你生气时，在愤怒的瞬间，你没有觉察，你跑掉了（you're ... out!) 然后，过一会，你说，“我刚刚生气了。” 对吗？所以，你把自己分裂成不要生气，和已经生气。所以，观察者说“我生气了，我不能生气”，这之间就有冲突。对吗？所以，这种分裂带来了冲突， “我不能生气，我要如何摆脱愤怒？” 等等。然而，如果你觉察到愤怒，就在它升起的时候，让它展现出来，不是言语上的，不是积极的，不是说“我要揍你了。” 让它绽放，让它展现出来，你就会看到它非常快地消失，然后枯萎。如果你做的正确，你就再也不会生气，这就结束了。
17:44	Q: Do you think you can you do the same thing with fear?	问：你认为我们能对恐惧做同样的事吗？
17:48	K: Same thing with fear.	克：可以。
17:52	Q: Sir, when you say you should observe the totality of yourself, I find that very hard to do because I can only see what is coming up in the present moment. Now, is that the totality of myself, or...? Or are there whole feelings, the whole of the mental consciousness?	问：先生，当你说你应该观察你自身的整体时，我发现这很难，因为我只能在它展现出来的一瞬间，观察到它。现在，这就是我的整体吗？或者或者有没有对整个意识的整体的感觉？
18:13	K: Sir, now, let’s go into that, shall we? Is it possible to be totally aware of the whole content of one’s consciousness? That is the question, isn’t it? Have I misunderstood the question?	克：先生，现在，让我们看一下这个问题。是否有可能整体上觉察一个人意识的整个内容？这就是问题，对吗？我误解问题了吗？
18:35	Q: In one moment. K: I’m coming to that. First, I’m asking if I’m telling you what the questioner is saying, accurately. The questioner is asking whether it is possible to see the whole of the content of consciousness at one perception – totally aware of the whole thing? Is it possible when you have lived a partial life, all the time? Right? You look at life partially, don’t you? You’re a business man, you’re a doctor, you are a politician, you are a scientist, you’re an artist, you are a writer, you are a labourer, a woman and so on. Those are all divided parts, aren’t they? And our whole conditioning is to look at life in parts. Right? Are you following this? In parts. Therefore, our conditioning is going to prevent seeing the totality of the whole of consciousness, at one instant. So, our concern then is not how to observe the totality of consciousness, but why does the mind or the brain observe partially? Why is the brain not capable of observing the total affair? The brain has been conditioned through millennia to look at life partly. Right? That’s clear, isn’t it? We are all looking at life in fragments. Then my concern is – if I have a concern about it – our concern then is, why does the mind or the brain observe in fragments? Right? Why?	问：在一瞬间。克：我稍后会讨论它。首先，我要问，我是否清楚地告诉了你们提问者在说什么。提问者在问，是否有可能在一个瞬间看到意识的整个内容 ——完全觉察到这一整件事？这是否有可能，当你一直过着片面的生活？对吗？你片面的看待生活，对吗？你是一个生意人，一个医生，你是一个政治家，你是一个科学家，你是一个艺术家，一名作家，你是一个劳动者，一个女人，等等。这都是分裂的片段，对吗？我们的整个制约就是片段化地看待生活。对吗？你跟上了吗？碎片化的。因此，我们的制约在阻止，整体地，在一个瞬间，看到意识的整体。所以，我们关心的不是如何去观察意识的整体，而是为什么意识或者头脑只能局部地观察？为什么头脑不能整体地观察？头脑被制约了几千年去片段化地看待生活。对吗？这很清楚，不是吗？我们都是碎片化地看生活。因此我们关心的是——如果你关心的话，为什么意识或者头脑只能碎片化的观察？对吗？为什么？
21:21	Q: What exactly do you mean by ‘observing in fragments’?	问：你所谓的“碎片化地观察”是什么意思？
21:26	K: What do you mean by observing the fragments of life? Don’t we live that way? In the office, I am brutal, I’m ambitious, I want a success, I’m ruthless. At home, I come home and say, ‘Darling, how are you?’	克：所谓碎片化的观察是什么意思？我们没有这么生活吗？在办公室，我们残忍，野心勃勃，我想成功，我残酷无情。在家里，我说，”亲爱的，你怎么样？”
21:50	Q: Sir, that seems almost optional. Whereas society seems to demand that we become more specialised.	问：先生，这看起来似乎是可以选择的。然而社会似乎要求我们越来越专业化。
21:58	K: Yes. Society demands that we become more specialised, which is fragmentation. Society demands it because they need more engineers and so on, so on. But, psychologically, we’re asking why does the brain function in fragments? As we are saying, for millennia it has been conditioned that way. Now, is it possible to be free of that conditioning? Not how to look at the totality but to be free of the conditioning as a nationalist, Arab, Jew, specialist, doctor and so on? To take life as a whole. Because there is security in fragments, in fragmentation, both physiologically, as well as psychologically. That’s obvious, isn’t it? No? I specialise in becoming a guru and I find in that specialisation a great deal of security both physical, as well as psychological. I specialise as a doctor, as an engineer, as a businessman, as a priest, as a salesman, whatever you like, in that fragmentation of life, in the fragments, there’s a great deal of security. And the brain and all the structure of the brain demands security. So, it has found security in a fragment. Now, is there security in a fragment? Follow it up, please. Is there security in division – as a Hindu, as a Muslim, as a Christian, as an Arab, as a Jew or in a specialised career? Is there security? That’s for you to answer. I can’t answer it. If there is no security, to find out that there’s no security is the beginning of intelligence, isn’t it? To say there is security in being a Communist or a Catholic – I’m taking those two as an example – if I’m a Catholic, in a Catholic country, I feel very safe. Psychologically, I believe and all the rest of it. In that belief, in that conditioning, there is security. And, in the same way, if I’m a Communist, theoretically, I believe in certain concepts of society, the power of the State and so on, so on, control, and in believing that, there’s a great deal of security.	克：是的。社会要求我们越来越专业化，也就是碎片化。社会这么要求我们，因为社会需要更多的工程师，等等。但是，心理上，我们问，为什么头脑只能碎片化的工作？我们在说，几千年来，它都被这么制约。现在，有可能摆脱这种制约吗？不是如何整体地看，而是如何摆脱制约，作为一个国家主义者，阿拉伯人，犹太人，专家，医生等等（的制约）？把生活作为一个整体。因为碎片化之中有安全感，生理及心理的碎片化。这很显然，不是吗？我的专业是做一个古鲁大师，我在这种专业化中找到了大量的安全感，生理上及心理上的安全感。我的专业是做一名医生，工程师，商人，牧师，销售员，或者其他你想做的，在碎片化的生活中，在碎片中，存在大量的安全感。大脑及它所有的结构需要安全感。所以，它在碎片化中找到了安全感。但是，碎片化中有安全感吗？请跟上我。分裂之中有安全感吗？——印度教徒，穆斯林，天主教徒，阿拉伯人，犹太人，或者某种特定职业之间的分裂，这之中有安全吗？这要让你来回答，我没法回答。如果这之中没有安全，那么发现其中没有安全，就是智慧的开始，不是吗？假设成为一名共产主义者或者天主教徒之中有安全 ——我拿这两个作为例子—— 如果我是一名天主教徒，在一个天主教国家，我感觉非常安全，心理上，我相信这一切。在这种信仰中，这种制约中，我感受到安全。同样的，如果我是一名共产主义者，理论上，我相信某些社会的概念，国家的权力，等等，控制，在相信这一切中，存在大量的安全。
25:36	So, one has to find out if there is security in division. Right? However profitable, however pleasurable, however comforting, is there security in division, which is fragmentation? Obviously, not. Now, to find out that, to find out that there is no security in fragmentation is the beginning of intelligence. It’s only the unintelligent who accept division and live in that division. Right?	所以，一个人必须去发现，分裂之中是否存在安全，对吗？无论多么有利益，多么令人愉悦，令人舒服，分裂也就是碎片化之中有安全吗？显然，没有。现在，就去发现这一切，发现碎片化之中并没有安全，这就是智慧的开始。只有不智慧的人，才会接受分裂，并在分裂中生活。对吗？
26:22	Q: Sir, if we are serious people, can the skill that you spoke of...	问：先生，如果我们是严肃的人，你所说的技巧
26:28	K: Ah, wait! Have we finished this question? Now, this is a very complex question, sir, it’s not just a couple of minutes. We live a fragmentary life. The essence of fragmentation is the ‘me.’ Right? The ‘me’ and the ‘you,’ ‘we’ and ‘they.’ That’s the essence of fragmentation. And we have lived that way, we are educated that way, we are conditioned to that, because in that there is tremendous idea or illusion that there is security. Now, to be free of that requires a great deal of observation, living with the idea that I am really functioning in fragmentation and where there is fragmentation there must be conflict, and therefore the importance given to the ‘me.’	克：等等！我们完成问题了吗？现在，这是一个非常复杂的问题，先生，几分钟说不完。我们碎片化地生活。碎片化的本质，就是“我”。对吗？ “我”和“你”，“我们”和“他们“。这就是碎片化的本质。而我们就这样生活，这样被教育，被制约，因为在其中存在大量的安全的观念或者幻觉。现在，从其中解脱需要大量的观察，要在生活中发现我真的在碎片化的行动，而哪里有碎片化，哪里就必然有冲突，因此赋予了“我”重要性。
27:50	So can you, can one be free of this fragmentary way of living, daily?	所以，你能在日常生活中，摆脱碎片化的生活方式吗？
28:00	Q: Sir, there seems to be no security in fragmentation, but fragmentation seems to continue as habit.	问：先生，碎片化中没有安全，但是碎片化似乎成了一种习惯。
28:13	K: But it’s habit. Now, all right, sir. It doesn’t matter if it is habit. If it is habit, can you be free of that habit? Habit being conditioning. Otherwise, we live in constant battle with each other, however intimate we are with each other, husband, wife and so on, there must be constant conflict and that’s why so many families break up. You know, all the rest of it.	克：但是它是一种习惯。好吧先生，是否是习惯不重要。如果它是一种习惯，那你能摆脱这种习惯吗？习惯就是制约。否则，我们就要始终与他人争斗，不管我们之间有多么亲密，丈夫和妻子，等等，之间必然有持续的冲突，这就是为什么有那么多家庭走向破裂。你知道的，所有这一切。
28:55	So, we are asking, to observe the totality of consciousness is only possible when there is no fragmentary existence, then you see the whole thing at once. You see, we are all so used to analysis, which is the continuation of fragmentation.	所以，我们问，观察意识的整体，必须要在非碎片化的存在时，才有可能，然后你就能一瞬间看到一切。你看，我们都如此习惯于分析，分析就是碎片化的延续。
29:27	Q: Sir, doesn’t that mean the whole of the consciousness is nothing?	问：先生，这是否意味着这整个意识就什么都不是（is nothing)？
29:33	K: Sir, the whole of consciousness, first of all, is its content, isn’t it? Its content makes up consciousness – anger, jealousy, hatred, the innumerable hurts we have, nationality, beliefs, conclusions, hopes, all that is our consciousness. Is it possible to be aware of all this, not bit by bit, totally? And then to go beyond it, which means to be free of the content and see what happens. But nobody wants to try that!	克：先生，首先，这整个意识，就是它的内容，不是吗？内容构成了意识 ——愤怒，嫉妒，仇恨，我们经历的无数的伤害，国家主义，信仰，结论，希望，所有这些就是我们的意识。有可能觉察到这一切吗？不是一点一点，而是整体的？然后就超越它，也就意味着摆脱它的内容，然后看看会发生什么。但是没有人想这么做！
30:25	Q: It seems impossible.	问：这看起来不可能。
30:26	Q: Would you say if we try that, without compassion, it would have no meaning in the transformation of mankind?	问：你会说如果我们没有慈悲心地去尝试，它会在人类的转化上毫无意义吗？
30:43	K: I don’t quite follow.	克：我不是太明白。
30:44	Q: Well, I’ll try and make it clearer, if I can. You spoke on Saturday of three things: compassion, clarity and skill. And you showed us, very clearly, how skill came into operation from clarity and compassion comes in from... K: Yes, yes sir.	问：我会说清楚一点，如果我可以的话。周六的时候你说了三件事：慈悲，清晰和技巧。你清楚地向我们展示了，技巧如何基于清晰运作，然后慈悲会产生…… 克：是的，先生。
31:02	Q: Now, how do we bring in compassion if we haven’t got compassion? If compassion has not brought us to this tent today, then what’s the point of being here? My question to you was this, if we get this consciousness that you have talked about, but if there is no compassion, what’s the point?	问：现在，我们如何能有慈悲，如果我们没有慈悲的话？如果今天在帐篷里慈悲不会到来，那我们在这里的意义是什么？我的问题就是，如果我们拥有你说的那种慈悲，但是如果没有慈悲，这一切有什么意义？
31:22	K: If there is no compassion? Q: Yes, if man has no compassion.	克：如果没有慈悲？问：是的，如果一个人没有慈悲。
31:26	K: Quite right, sir. I know. There is no point.	克：我清楚了，先生。（如果没有慈悲）这没有什么意义。
31:28	Q: It is fundamental that man hasn’t got compassion.	问：这是根本的问题，人类并没有慈悲。
31:30	K: Quite right. Man has not got compassion. Why?	克：是的，人类没有获得慈悲。为什么？
31:37	Q: That’s the question. K: No, go into it, sir. Why as a human being, you or I or another, who is the essence of all humanity. Right, sir? Psychologically, he’s the essence of all humanity, therefore, when you are aware of yourself, you are representing the whole of mankind. And you or another has no compassion – why?	问：这就是问题所在。克：不，先生，深入进去。为什么作为人类，你或者我或者其他人，我们就是所有人类的本质。对吗？先生。心理上，他就是全部人类的本质，因此，当你觉察到你自己，你就在代表所有的人类。而你或者其他人没有慈悲——为什么？
32:10	Q: I think one of the problems is feeling that our problems are our personal problems.	问：我认为问题之一是，我们感觉我们的问题是个人化的问题。
32:18	K: Our problems are not personal, it is universal.	克：我们的问题不是个人化的，它们是普遍的。
32:22	Q: But I think this is one of the factors that prevents compassion this feeling that it’s my troubles.	问：但是我认为这就是阻碍慈悲的因素，感觉这是我们个人的问题。
32:30	K: No, we are trying to find out, sir, why have human beings who are so evolved technologically to such enormous extent, why haven’t they got this simple factor which is so intelligent – to have compassion – why?	克：不，先生，我们要试着去发现，为什么在技术领域，取得如此大进步的人类，没有发现这个简单的因素，智慧的因素——也就是慈悲——为什么？
32:52	Q: Perhaps they’re too busy.	问：也许他们都太忙了。
32:54	K: No, don’t answer it. Find out why you as a human being, living on this earth, which is meant for all human beings to live happily, why haven’t you compassion? You, not somebody else.	克：不，不要去回答。去发现为什么你作为一个人类，生活在这个地球上，为什么你没有慈悲？这也就意味着所有人类能快乐的生活。你，不是其他什么人。
33:15	Q: Sir, I am too frightened.	问：先生，我太恐惧了。
33:17	K: Madam, that is too quick an answer, you haven’t gone into it.	克：女士，那个回答太快了你还没有深入。
33:20	Q: Because I’m greedy, because I want too much.	问：因为我很贪婪，因为我想要太多。
33:29	Q: You wouldn’t have to try to have compassion, wouldn’t it come naturally when you see yourself?	问：你没有尝试过拥有慈悲，当你看到你自己时，它是否会自然地到来？
33:39	K: You haven’t even investigated, you haven’t even looked for a couple of seconds at yourself and asked yourself why you haven’t got compassion. You’re already answering, throwing out words. That may be your defence. Why have you, with all your experiences, with all your knowledge, with all the civilisation that you have behind you of which you are the result, why doesn’t this thing exist in your daily life?	克：你甚至没有去探究，你自己还没花几秒钟看看这个问题，问自己，你为什么没有慈悲。你就已经回答了，抛出了自己的答案。这也许就是你的防御机制。为什么你，带着你所有的经验，知识，所有的文化，你就是这一切的结果，为什么（慈悲）这件事在你的日常生活中并不存在？
34:23	Q: Is it a question of self-preservation?	问：这是一个自我保护的问题吗？
34:28	K: Is it a question of self-preservation? To find out why you haven’t got it, why it doesn’t exist in the human heart and mind and outlook, don’t you ask, also, the question, do you love anybody?	克：这是一个自我保护的问题吗？去发现你为什么没有它，为什么它不存在于人类的心灵，意识和视野中，你不会同时问这个问题吗？你爱任何人吗？
34:56	Q: That’s a mean question, sir. At least, for me, because I’m going to wonder what love is all about, what the definition of love is.	问：先生，这是一个刻薄的问题。至少对我来说，因为我想弄清楚爱是什么，爱的定义是什么。
35:10	K: I’m asking you, sir. Please, sir, I’m asking you, most respectfully, whether you love anybody, at all. You may love your dog but the dog is your slave. Apart from animals and buildings and books and poetry and the love of the land, do you love anybody? – which means not asking anything in return. Right? Just listen, sir. Find out! Not asking anything from that person you love, not dependent on that person at all. Because if you are dependent, then fear begins, jealousy, anxiety, hatred, anger. And if you are attached to somebody, is that love? No, find out! And if all that is not love – I’m just asking, I don’t say it is, or it is not – if all that is not love, then how can you have compassion? We are asking for something much more than love. And even love we haven’t got – just the ordinary love for another human being.	克：我在问你，先生。我带着最高的敬意问你，你是否爱任何人？你也许爱你的狗，但狗是你的奴隶。除了动物，建筑，书籍，还有诗歌，美丽的大地，你是否还爱任何人？ ——爱意味着不要任何事做回报。对吗？只是听，先生。去找出来！不从你爱的人身上要求任何事，完全不依赖那个人。因为，如果你依赖，其中就有恐惧，嫉妒，焦虑，仇恨，愤怒。如果你依赖某人，那是爱吗？不，去发现这一点！如果这些都不是爱 ——我只是在问，我没说它是或者不是—— 如果这一切都不是爱，那你如何能有慈悲？我们总是要求某些多于爱的事，但即使是爱，我们也没有 ——只是对另一个人类的普通的爱。
37:16	So, what shall we do? We can go on discussing, answering this question, umpteen times, but if you, the listener, don’t listen, take it in, find out, then it becomes utterly meaningless to have a dialogue, or a discussion, or a question and answer meeting when you are not actively participating in the enquiry.	所以，我们要做什么？我们可以继续讨论，回答问题，无数次，但是如果你，听者，没有在听，没有自己去发现，那对话，或者讨论，或者问答，就彻底失去了意义，当你没有积极的参与到探索中来时。
37:53	Q: How do you find that love? K: I don’t want to find that love. All that I want to do is to remove that which is not love, to be free of jealousy, attachment.	问：你如何能找到那种爱？克：我不想找到那种爱。我只想去掉所有不是爱的东西，摆脱嫉妒，依赖。
38:12	Q: That means we should have no fragmentation.	问：这意味着，我们不能碎片化。
38:15	K: Oh, sir, sir, that’s just theory. You see, you’re going back again to theories. Find out if you love somebody.	克：先生，这只是理论。你看，你又回到了理论中。去发现你是否爱某人。
38:44	K: You haven’t listened, madam. You haven’t listened to what the speaker has been saying. How can you love when you are concerned about yourself? Right? Your problems, your ambitions, your desire for success, your desire for all the rest of it. You first, and the other second, or the other first and you second. It’s the same thing.	克：女士，你没有在听。你没有听演讲者正在说什么。当你关心你自己时，你如何能爱？对吗？你的问题，你的野心，你对成功的欲望，你对其他所有一切的欲望。你是第一位的，其他的都是第二位的，或者其他人是第一位的，你是第二位的，这都是一回事。
39:21	Q: I would like to know whether it’s possible to look at a feeling without bringing in thought.	问：我想知道，是否有可能看着一种感觉，同时不带入思想。
39:29	K: We haven’t finished this question, madam.	克：女士，我们还没完成这个问题。
39:36	Now, you see, we’ve asked so many questions. Now, how can we have a dialogue about this, two people – you understand? Two or three people, sitting round here, you can sit, all of you can sit on this platform with me, those who want to discuss, have a dialogue. Can we do that, now? Two of you, or half a dozen of you sit here, together, and say, ‘Look, let’s go into this. Why am I…? I understand this, verbally, that love cannot exist when there is jealousy, love cannot exist when there is attachment, now, is it possible for me to be free of attachment?’ That’s a dialogue. Then I’ll have a dialogue with myself, shall I? And you listen.	现在，你看，我们问了这么多问题。现在，我们如何能就此展开一段对话，在两个人之间——你明白吗？两个或者三个人，坐在这，你们中的任何人都可以和我坐在这，那些想讨论，想对话的人。我们现在可以这么做吗？两个人，或者五六个人，一起坐在这，然后说，”看，让我们探究一下，为什么，我词语上理解这一切，也就是当存在嫉妒，存在依赖时，爱不存在。现在，我有可能摆脱依赖吗？这就是对话。然后我可以和自己对话，你们听，可以吗？
40:41	Q: Isn’t humanity, from the moment of conception, up to being brought up, trained at being selfish, takers, and they never learn to give.	问：难道人类不是诞生到长大一直被教育，训练去自私，获取但从不学习给予。
40:58	K: I know, sir.	克：我知道先生。
40:59	Q: From the mother’s womb up to being thrown into the wolves of everyday life.	问：从母亲的子宫被扔到生活的狼群之中。
41:10	K: We are saying that, sir. I’ll have a conversation with myself, a dialogue with myself.	克：先生，我们在说这个。我会和自己交流，和自己对话。
41:21	I realise by listening to this, that I don’t love. That’s a fact. I’m not going to deceive myself. I’m not going to pretend to my wife I love her, or to the woman or the girl, or boy. Now, first of all, I don’t know what love is. I don’t know what love is. But I do know that I’m jealous, I do know that I’m terribly attached to her. And in that attachment there is fear, there is jealousy, there is anxiety, there is a sense of dependency. I don’t like to depend but I depend because I am lonely and I’m shoved around by society, all over, in the office, in the factory and I come home, I want to feel comfort, companionship, escape from myself. So, I’m dependent, attached to that person. Now, how am I – I’m asking myself – how am I to be free of this attachment? Not knowing what love is, I won’t pretend – love of God, love of Jesus, love of Krishna, all that nonsense, throw it all out – I have thrown it all out. So, I’m saying, how am I to be free of this attachment? I’m taking that just as an example.	通过聆听这一切，我认识到我没有爱。这是个事实。我不会去欺骗自己。我不会假装我爱我的妻子，或者那个女人，女孩，或者男孩。现在，首先，我不知道爱是什么。我不知道爱是什么。但是我知道我是嫉妒的。我知道我极度的依赖她。而在这种依赖中，就有恐惧，嫉妒，焦虑，还有依靠的感觉。我不喜欢依赖，但是我依赖，因为我孤独，我被社会推来挤去，在办公室里，在工厂里，然后我回到家，我想感到舒适，被陪伴，可以从我自身逃开。所以，我依赖那个人。现在，我要如何——我在问自己—— 摆脱这种依赖？不是去思考爱是什么，我不会去假装——爱上帝，爱基督，或者爱克里希纳，这些都没意义，把它们扔到一边——我已经把他们都扔到一边了。所以，我在问，我要如何摆脱这种依赖？这只是一个例子。
43:04	First of all, I won’t run away from it. Right? I don’t know how it’s going to end up with my wife. You understand? When I’m really detached from her, my relationship may change to her. She might be attached to me and I might not be attached to her or to any other woman. Please, you understand? It isn’t that I want to be detached from her and join another woman. That is silly! I’m having a dialogue with myself, here. So, what shall I do? I won’t run away from the consequence of being totally free of all attachment. I’m going to investigate. I don’t know what love is, but I see, very clearly, definitely, without any doubt, that attachment to that person means fear, anxiety, jealousy, possession, all the rest of it. So, I ask myself, how am I to be free of attachment? Not the method, I want the freedom from it. I don’t know. I really don’t know.	首先，我不会从它身边跑开。对吗？我不知道我和妻子的关系会如何结束。你明白吗？当我真的不再依赖她，我们的关系也许会转变。她需要依赖我，而我也许不依赖她，或者任何其他女人。你明白吗？并不是我不依赖她，然后转去其他女人。那太蠢了！我在和我自己对话。所以，我要做什么？我不会从摆脱依赖的后果中逃跑。我要去探究。我不知道爱是什么，但是我非常清楚，没有疑惑的地看到，对一个人的依赖，意味着恐惧，焦虑，嫉妒，占有，等等。所以，我问自己，我要如何摆脱依赖？不是方法，我想摆脱它。我不知道，我真的不知道。
44:52	So, I begin to enquire. Then I get caught in a system. You understand? You are following this? I get caught in some guru who says, ‘I’ll help you to be detached. Do this, this, this. Practise this, this, this.’ And I want to be free from it and I accept what the silly man says because I see the importance of being free, and he promises me that if I do this, I’ll have a reward. So, I want to be free in order to have a reward. You understand? I’m looking for a reward. So I say, how silly I am! I want to be free and I get attached to the reward. You’re following all this? Good! At last! I think I’d better have a dialogue all the time, with myself!	所以，我开始探索。然后，我陷入了一个体系。你明白吗？你跟上了吗？我陷入了某个大师（的体系），他说， “我会帮你摆脱依赖，做这个，这个，这个，练习这个，这个，这个。” 而我想摆脱这一切，所以我接受了这个愚蠢的人说的话，因为我看到了自由的重要性，而他许诺我，如果我这么做，我会有奖赏。所以，我想摆脱，进而获得奖赏。你明白吗？我在寻求奖赏。所以我说，我实在太蠢了！我想要解脱，却又依赖奖励。你跟上了吗？很好！我认为，我最好一直和自己对话！
46:19	Sir, I represent the rest of humanity – and I really mean it – Therefore, when I’m having a dialogue with myself, I’m in tears. You understand? Not like you, smiling. It is a passion for me.	先生，我代表了所有的人类 ——我真的这么认为—— 因此，当我和自己对话时，我满怀热泪。你明白吗？不像你，一直在笑。这是我的激情所在。
46:36	So, I don’t want to be attached and yet I find myself getting attached to an idea. You understand? That is, I must be free and somebody, or some book, or some idea, something says, ‘Do this, you will have that.’ So, the reward becomes my attachment – you follow? So, I say, ‘Look what I have done. Be careful. Don’t get caught in that trap.’ Whether it’s a woman or an idea, it is still attachment. So, I’m very watchful, now. I’ve learned something. That is, exchange for something else is still attachment. Right? So, I’m very watchful. Then I say to myself, ‘Is there a way, or what am I to do to be free of attachment?’ What is my motive? You understand? Why do I want to be free from attachment? Because it’s painful? Because I want to achieve a state where there is no attachment, no fear, no etc., etc.? What is my motive? Please, follow me, because I’m representing you. What is my motive in wanting to be free? And I suddenly realise a motive gives a direction. Right? And that direction will dictate my freedom. Are you following this? So, why do I have a motive? What is motive? A motive is a movement, a hope or to achieve something. So, the motive is my attachment. I wonder if you are following all this. No, do it, sir, as we’re talking. The motive has become my attachment, not only the woman, the idea of a goal, but my motive – I must have that. So, I’m all the time functioning within the field of attachment. Right? The woman, the future and the motive. To all this I’m attached. So, I say, ‘My God, it’s a tremendously complex thing. I didn’t realise that to be free of attachment implies all this.’ Right?	所以，我不想依赖，而我发现我开始依赖一个想法。你明白吗？也就是，我必须自由，而某人，某书，或者某些想法说，“做这个，你会得到它（自由）。” 所以，奖赏变成了我的依赖——你明白吗？所以我说，“仔细看看我做了什么。不要陷入陷阱中。” 不管是一个女人还是观点，它都是一种依赖。所以，我现在非常警觉，我学到了一些东西。也就是，为了交换而做某事，也是一种依赖。对吗？所以，我非常警觉。然后我对自己说，“存在一种方法，或者我要做什么，才能摆脱依赖吗？” 我的动机是什么？你明白吗？为什么我想摆脱依赖？因为它很痛苦？因为我想实现一种状态，一种没有依赖，恐惧，等等的状态？我的动机是什么？请跟上我，因为我就代表了你。我想自由的动机是什么？然后我忽然认识到，动机就指定了一个方向。对吗？而那个方向会支配我的自由。你跟上了吗？所以，我为什么要有一个动机？动机是什么？动机是一个运动，一个希望，或者去达成某事。所以，动机就是我的依赖。我好奇，你是否跟上我了。不，先生，就在我们谈话的过程中这么做。动机变成了我的依赖，不只是女人，某个目标的理想，而是我的动机——我必须有这个。所以，我一直在依赖的领域里活动。对吗？那个女人，未来，还有动机。我依赖这一切。所以，我说，“上帝，这真是太复杂了！我没认识到摆脱依赖的自由意味着这一切。“ 对吗？
50:10	Now, I see this as clearly as I see on a map the roads, the villages, the side roads, the main roads – very clearly. Then, I say to myself, ‘Now, is it possible for me to be free of my motive – to which I am attached, to be free of the woman for whom I have great attachment, and also the reward which I’m going to get when I am free?’ To all this I am attached. Why? Is it that I am insufficient in myself? Is it that I am very, very lonely, therefore escape from that feeling of extraordinary sense of isolation and therefore cling to something – man, woman, idea, motive? You follow? Cling, hold on to something. Now, is it I’m lonely? I am taking that. Is it I am lonely? Therefore, I’m escaping from that feeling of extraordinary isolation, through attachment of another. Right? So, now I’m not interested in attachment at all. I’m interested in understanding why I am lonely, which makes me attached. You have understood? You are following me – my dialogue with myself? Which is, I am lonely, and that loneliness has forced me to escape through attachment to this or to that. Now, I say, ‘As long as I’m lonely, all the sequence is this.’ So, I must investigate why I am lonely. What does it mean? Right? What does it mean to be lonely? How does it come about? Is it instinctual, inbred, heredity, or is it my daily activity that is bringing about this loneliness? You understand? I’m going into it. I’m going into it, having a dialogue with myself. Oh, by Jove!	现在，我看到这一切，就像看到地图上的道路一样清晰，看到村庄，小路，主路——一切都非常清晰。然后，我对自己说，”现在，我有可能摆脱我的动机——对我依赖的一切，摆脱那个我深深依赖的女人，还有当我自由时我想获得的奖励，我依赖的所有这一切。为什么？是因为我对自己不满足吗？是因为我自己非常非常孤独，因而从那种极度隔离的感觉中逃避出来，因而依赖于某事——女人，想法，动机吗？你明白吗？依赖，抓住某事。现在，我很孤独吗？我在谈论它。是因为我很孤独吗？因此，我从这种惊人的隔绝感中逃离出来，通过对另一个人的依赖。对吗？所以，现在我对依赖完全不感兴趣。我的兴趣是理解为什么我孤独，这孤独让我依赖。你明白吗？你在跟着我吗？——我是在自言自语吗？也就是，我孤独，这种孤独强迫我通过依赖这个或者那个来逃避。现在，我说，“只要我是孤独的，所有的结果就是那样。所以，我必须探究我为什么孤独。这意味着什么？对吗？孤独意味着什么？它是如何产生的？它是本能的，遗传的，或者是我们的日常活动，带来了这种孤独感？你明白吗？我要去探究它。我要探究它，和我自己对话。哦，天。
53:31	If it is inherited, if it is an instinct, which I question because I accept nothing – you understand? – I accept nothing because I don’t accept it is instinct and say, ‘I can’t help it.’ If it is heredity, it’s part of my… I’m not to blame. As I don’t accept any of these things, I say, ‘Why is there this loneliness?’ Now, I question it and remain with the question, not try to find an answer. I wonder if you understand this. Is somebody following all this? I have asked myself what is the root of this loneliness and I’m watching, I’m not trying to find an intellectual answer. I’m not trying to tell the loneliness what it should be, or what it is. I’m watching it for it to tell me. I wonder if you understand this. Are we going along, together? Q: Yes.	如果它是遗传的，是天生的，那我要质疑这一点，因为我什么也不接受 ——你明白吗？—— 我不接受它是天生的，然后说，“我也无能为力。” 如果它是遗传的，它是我的一部分……我不会感到惭愧。但我不接受任何这种观点，我说， “为什么有这种孤独？” 现在，我质疑它，然后和问题在一起，不是去尝试寻找一个答案。我好奇，你是否理解这一点。有人跟上了吗？我问我自己，这种孤独的根源是什么，而我在观察，不是尝试去寻找一个智力上的答案。我不是尝试去告诉孤独，它应该做什么，或者它是什么。我在观察它，让它来告诉我。我好奇你们理解这一切吗？你们在和我一起探究吗？问：是的。
55:12	K: So, there is a watchfulness for the loneliness to reveal itself. It won’t reveal if I run away, if I am frightened, if I resist it. So, I watch it. I watch it so that no thought interferes because this is much more important than thought coming in, because my whole energy is concerned with the observation of that loneliness, therefore, thought doesn’t come in at all. Are you following this? Because the mind is being challenged and it must answer. And when you are challenged it is a crisis. And in a crisis, you have got all the energy, and that energy remains without being interfered with. I wonder if you follow all this! Because this is a challenge which must be answered.	克：所以存在对孤独的觉察，让它可以揭示自己。如果我跑开，它不会揭示自己，如果我害怕，如果我抵抗它。所以，我观察它。我观察它，所以没有思想的介入，因为这比思想介入重要多了，因为我的整个能量都在关注对这种孤独的觉察，因此，思想完全不会进入。你们跟上了吗？因为意识被挑战了，它必然要回答。而当你被挑战时，这就是一个危机。而在危机之中，你就会具有全部的能量，这种能量可以在不被干扰的情况下一直保持。我好奇你们跟上了吗？因为这是一个，必须被回答的挑战。
56:33	Q: How can you hang on to your energy?	问：你怎么能坚持这种能量？
56:41	Q: What can you do about this energy?	问：你能对这种能量做什么？
56:43	K: No, I’ve brought… It has come. You have lost the whole thing!	克：不……它已经到来了。你什么都没理解！
56:53	Look, I have started out having a dialogue with myself. I said what is this strange thing called love? Everybody talks about it, writes about it, romantic poems, pictures and all the rest of it, sex and, oh, areas of it. And, I say, have I got this thing called love? Is there such a thing as love? I see love doesn’t exist when there is jealousy, hatred, fear. So, I’m not concerned with love any more, I’m concerned with ‘what is,’ which is my fear, attachment. And why am I attached? I say one of the reasons is – one of the reasons, I don’t say that’s the whole reason – one of the reasons is that I’m lonely, desperately isolated. The older I grow, the more isolation. So, I watch it. This is a challenge, to find out, because it is a challenge all energy is there to respond. That’s simple, isn’t it? When there is death in the family, it is a challenge. If there is some catastrophe, of an accident or whatever it is, it’s a challenge and you have the energy to meet it. You don’t say, ‘Where do I get this energy?’ When your house is on fire, you have the energy to move. You have extraordinary energy. You don’t sit back and say, ‘Well, I must get this energy’ and wait. And your whole house will be burnt, then.	看，我要开始和自己对话了。我说过，那个被称为爱的奇怪事物是什么？所有人都在谈论它，描写它，浪漫的诗，图画，等等，性爱等等。所以，我说，我得到那个被称为爱的事物了吗？有这样的爱吗？我看到当存在嫉妒，仇恨，恐惧时，爱就不存在。所以，我不在关心爱，我关心”现实之是“（what is），也就是我的恐惧，依赖。我为什么依赖？我说其中一个原因 ——其中一个原因，我不是说所有原因，其中一个原因是我孤独，令人绝望的隔绝感。我越年老，就越孤独。所以，我看到它。这是一个挑战，去发现它，因为它是一个挑战，所有能量就会汇聚来回应。这很简单，不是吗？当家庭中出现死亡时，它就是一个挑战。如果存在某种灾难，一场意外，或者其他什么，它是一个挑战，而你会获得能量去面对它。你不会说，”我要去哪里获得能量？“ 当你的房子在着火时，你就会有跑出来的能量。你会有巨大的能量。你不会坐下，然后说，”好，我必须要有能量”然后等着。然后你的整个房子都会被烧毁。
59:01	So, there is this tremendous energy to answer that question: why is there this loneliness? Because I have rejected other ideas – you follow? – suppositions, theories, that I have inherited, it is instinct. All that means nothing to me. It is ‘what is.’ So, why am I lonely – not I – why is there this loneliness which every human being, if he’s at all aware, goes through, superficially or most profoundly? And, why? Why does this come into being? Is it the mind is doing something which is bringing it? You understand? If I have rejected theories, instinct, inheritance, heritage, I have rejected all that, therefore, I’m asking does the mind bring this about? You understand my question, sir? Are you following or getting tired?	所以，存在巨大的能量去回答那个问题：为什么会有这种孤独？因为，我已经拒绝了其他观点——你明白吗？—— 拒绝假设，理论，这是遗传的，是本能。所有这些对我都没意义。只有“现实之是”。所以，我为什么孤独？——不是我——是为什么有孤独？这是所有人类，如果他有觉察的话，都经历的事，肤浅的，或者是深刻的。为什么？为什么人类会经历这些？是因为意识做了什么，因而带来了孤独吗？你明白吗？如果我拒绝所有理论，本能，遗传等等，我拒绝所有这一切，因而，我在问是意识带来了这一切吗？你明白我的问题吗？先生你跟上了吗？还是已经累了？
1:00:24	Is the mind doing this? Loneliness means total isolation. Right? So, I say, is the mind, the brain doing this? The mind which is partly the movement of thought, is thought doing this? You are following all this? Thought in daily life, is it creating, bringing about this sense of isolation? You understand? Which is, in the office I am isolating myself because I want to be bigger, become the executive, or the pope or the bishop or the executive – you know. Therefore, it is working all the time, isolating itself. Are you watching this? You understand, sir?	是意识做了这些吗？孤独意味着彻底的隔绝。对吗？所以，我说，是意识，也就是头脑，做了这些吗？意识也就是思想的运动，是思想做了这些吗？你跟上了吗？日常生活中的思想，是它创造了这种隔绝的感觉吗？你明白吗？也就是，在办公室里，我隔绝自己，因为我想升迁，变成执行官，或者教皇，主教，执行官等等——你知道的。因此，他就一直在隔离自己。你在看这些吗？你明白吗？先生。
1:01:42	Q: Sir, it seems to isolate itself, in relation to how crowded it is.	问：先生，隔绝自身似乎和有多拥挤相关。
1:01:47	K: Yes. Q: As a reaction to...	克：是的。问：做为一个反应
1:01:49	K: That’s right, sir, that’s right. I want to go into this. So, I see thought, the mind, is all the time operating to make itself superior, more – you follow? – working itself to this isolation, towards this isolation. Right? Clear?	克：这是对的，先生，就是这样，我会讨论它。所以，我看到思想，也就是意识，始终在让它自己变得更杰出，更多——你明白吗？——为自己工作，因而让它自己变得更隔绝。对吗？这一点，清楚了吗？
1:02:21	So, the problem then is, why does thought do this? Is it the nature of thought to work for itself? You understand what I mean? Is it the nature of thought to create this isolation? Does society create this isolation? Does education create this isolation? Right? Education does bring about this isolation – gives me a certain career, a certain specialisation, so it is isolation. You follow? So thought, being fragmentary, because I have found that – I’ve found that thought, which is the response of the past as knowledge, experience and memory, so thought is limited. Right? Thought is time-binding. So, thought is doing this. So my concern, then, is why does thought do it? Is it in its very nature to do this?	所以，问题就是，思想为什么这么做？思想的本质是为自己工作吗？你明白我的意思吗？思想的本质是去创造这种隔绝感吗？是社会创造了这种隔绝感吗？是教育创造了这种隔绝感吗？对吗？教育带来了这种隔绝感 ——给我一个职位，某种特长，所以就有隔绝。你明白吗？所以，思想是碎片化的，因为我发现 ——我已经发现，思想是作为知识，经验，记忆的过去的反应，所以思想是受限的，对吗？思想是被时间束缚的，所以，是思想做了这一切。所以，我的关注，就成了，为什么思想这么做？思想的本质是这么做吗？
1:03:57	I came here for a discussion – wait, sir – I came here for a discussion, dialogue. Now, I am having a dialogue by myself. Too bad! I’ll go on because look what it is leading me up to – leading.	我来到这里讨论 ——等一下，先生—— 我到这里来是要讨论，对话。现在，我只能自言自语。太糟了！我会继续，因为我要看看这会带我到哪去。
1:04:24	Q: This is the fourth time I’ve stood up to say something and you’re saying that you’re having a dialogue by yourself.	问：这是第四次我站起来想说什么，你却还在说你在和自己对话。
1:04:36	K: But, sir, are you telling me – please, sir, are you having a dialogue with me?	克：但是，先生，请问，你在和我对话吗？
1:04:43	Q: Well, I had something to say...	问：我有些事要说
1:04:46	K: Are you having a dialogue with me?	克：你是在和我对话吗？
1:04:49	Q: Well, I don’t know. I don’t really know but I’m never going to find out unless I stand up and say something.	问：我不知道，我真不知道，但是除非我站起来，然后说点什么，否则我不会发现的。
1:04:56	K: We said, sir, please, we said a dialogue implies conversation between two people. Are you and I conversing together, about the same thing?	克：先生，我们说，我们在进行对话，这意味着两个人之间的交流。你和我在一起交流同一件事吗？
1:05:06	Q: Well, we can’t be, because every time I have something to say...	问：我们不能，因为每时每刻我都想说点什么
1:05:09	K: I am asking you, sir, I’m asking, not the others, I’m asking you, are we having a dialogue between you and me about this thing? Which is, why does thought create this isolation, if it does?	克：先生，我在问你，不是其他人，我在问你，我们正在你我之间对这件事进行对话吗？也就是，为什么思想创造了隔绝感，它在这么做吗？
1:05:28	Q: It was to do with that because I thought that it came back to the beginning when you were talking about what is love. It seems that if there’s a moral obligation to love at all costs which there was in my family, it’s an affectation, an affectation of love, then the mind is always deceived because nobody is expressing their true feelings, people are masking their violence by politeness, which they call love. Therefore, what is really inside is being hidden all the time and, therefore, thought must be deceptive, must cause isolation because nobody knows what anybody else is feeling because of all the pretence.	问：它这么做是因为，我认为，回到最初，当你谈论什么是爱时。似乎，如果有不惜一切代价去爱的道德的义务，这在我的家庭中，就是任务，爱的任务，然后思想就会自欺，因为没人在表达他们真实的感受，人们通过礼貌来掩盖他们的暴力，他们称之为爱。因此，真实一直被隐藏了起来，因此，思想必须自欺，必须创造隔绝感，因为没人知道其他人的感觉是怎样的，因为所有的伪装。
1:06:11	K: We have been through that, sir. We are coming to the point when we are not pretending. I don’t know what love is. We said in the dialogue that I don’t know what love is. I know when we use that word ‘love’ there is a certain pretence, a certain hypocrisy, putting on a certain type of mask. We have been through all that. At the beginning of this dialogue, we went into that. So, we come to the point now, why does thought, being a fragment, why does it bring about this isolation, if it does? I have found it does, in my conversation with myself because thought is limited, thought is time-binding, therefore, whatever it does, must be limited. And in that limitation it has found security. It has found security in saying, ‘I have a special career in my life.’ It has found security in saying, ‘I’m a professor. There, I’m perfectly safe. After seven years, I get a tenure’ – and there you’re stuck for the rest of your life. And there is great security, both psychological, as well as factual.	克：先生，我们讨论过这些了。我们讨论过这一点，当我们不伪装的时候，我们不知道爱是什么。我们在对话中说，我们不知道爱是什么。我知道当我们用“爱”这个词时，就会有某种程度的伪装，某种虚伪，戴上某种面具。我们已经讨论过所有这些了。在对话的开始，我们就讨论了这些。所以，现在我们到了这一点，为什么思想，会碎片化，为什么它会带来隔绝感，是它带来的吗？在我和我自己的对话中，我发现是它带来的，因为思想是受限的，思想是被时间束缚的，因此，不管它做什么，必然是局限的。而在这种局限中，它发现了安全感。它发现了安全感，当它说， “我有一个特定的职业。“ ”我是一个教授。因此我十分的安全。七年之后，我就有终身教职了” 然后你就毕生都陷在那里边。这其中有巨大的安全感，心理上以及事实上的。
1:07:53	So, thought is doing this. Now, the problem then is, can thought realise – please listen – can thought realise that it is limited and therefore, the moment it learns, it understands that whatever it does is limited and therefore fragmentary and therefore isolating, whatever it does will be this. Therefore, can thought – please, I’m having a dialogue, this is a very important point – can thought realise its own limitation? Or does thought say to itself, ‘I’m limited.’ You understand the difference? Are you all asleep? Thought being ‘me’ – do I say, ‘Thought is limited’ and therefore it says, ‘I’m limited.’ Or thought, itself, realises I’m limited. The two things are entirely different. One is an imposition, and therefore conflict, whereas when thought itself says, ‘I am limited’ it won’t move away from that limitation. You understand? Please, this is very important to understand because this is the real essence of this thing. We are imposing on thought what it should do. Thought has created the ‘we,’ the ‘me,’ and the ‘me’ has separated itself from thought and says, ‘I will dictate, tell what thought should do.’ But if thought realises itself that it is limited then there is no resistance, no conflict, it says, ‘I am that. I am blue.’	所以，思想在这么做。现在，问题就是，思想可以认识到——请认真听—— 思想可以认识到这是受限的，因而，在它学习的瞬间，它就理解了，不管它做什么，都是局限的，因此是碎片化的，是隔绝的，不管它做什么。因此，思想——请注意，我们在对话，这是很重要的一点—— 思想可以认识到自己的局限吗？或者，思想会对自己说，“我是受限的。” 你明白其中的不同吗？你睡着了吗？思想，变成了“我”——我会说，“思想是受限的” 因此“我是受限的”。或者，思想本身，认识到我是受限的。这是两件完全不同的事。一个是强加的，因而有冲突，然而当思想自己说，”我是受限的“，它就不会基于那个局限继续往前走。你明白吗？请注意，理解这一点非常重要，因为，这就是这件事真正的本质。我们强加给思想，它应该做什么。思想创造了”我们“，”我“，而”我“，把它和思想相分离，然后说，”我必须指挥，告诉思想需要做什么。“ 但是，如果思想认识到它自身是受限的，然后就没有抵抗，没有冲突，它说，”我就是这样，我是蓝的。“
1:10:25	So, does thought – in my dialogue with myself, I am asking – does thought realise this, itself? Or am I telling it that it’s limited? If I am telling that it’s limited then I become separate from the limitation. Then I struggle to overcome the limitation, therefore, there is conflict, which is violence, which is not love. Are you following?	所以，思想——在我和我自己的对话中，我在问—— 思想本身可以认识到这一点吗？或者是我在告诉它，它是受限的？如果是我告诉它，它是受限的，那我和那种局限，就分离了。然后我挣扎着想克服这种局限，因此，就会有冲突，也就是暴力，也就没有爱。你明白了吗？
1:11:01	So, does thought realise itself that it’s limited? I have to find out. I’m being challenged. I have got energy now, because when I’m challenged I’ve got all energy. Does consciousness – put it differently – does consciousness realise its content? Does consciousness realise, its content is itself? Or I have heard another say, ‘Consciousness is its content, its content makes up consciousness’? Therefore, I say, ‘Yes, it is so’ – you follow? Or does consciousness, this consciousness realise its content and therefore this very content is the totality of my consciousness? Right? Do you see the difference in the two? The one imposed by me, the ‘me’ created by thought, then if I impose something on thought, then there is conflict. Right? It’s like a tyrannical government imposing on someone, but the government is what I have created!	所以，思想认识到自身是受限的了吗？我必须去发现，我在被挑战。我现在获得了能量，因为我在被挑战，我得到了所有的能量。意识——换一种说法—— 意识认识到它的内容了吗？意识认识到它的内容就是它本身了吗？或者，我听到其他人说，”意识就是它的内容，内容就构成了意识“？因此，我说，”对对，就是这样“——你明白吗？或者，意识自己认识到它的内容，因而这个内容就是我意识的整体？对吗？你看到这二者的区别了吗？一个是被“我”强加的，被思想创造的”我“，然后，如果“我”强加给思想某事，就会有冲突。对吗？就像专制的政府强加给人们某事，但是这个政府就是我们自己创造的！
1:12:45	So, we are asking, has thought realised its own littleness, its own pettiness, its own limitation, or is it pretending to be something extraordinary, noble? – you know, all the rest of it – Divine? Which is nonsense because thought is memory, experience, remembrance. So, I must, in my dialogue, there must be clarity about this point: that there is no outside influence imposing on thought saying it is limited. So, thought then because there is no imposition – you understand? – there is no conflict, therefore, it realises it is limited. Therefore, whatever it does – its worship of God, its worship of Jesus, its worship is limited, shoddy, petty, though it has created marvellous cathedrals in Europe and here.	所以，我们问，思想认识到自身的渺小，琐碎，局限，或者它假装成，某种不凡，高尚的事物？ ——你知道那一切——某种神圣的事物？这都毫无意义，因为思想就是记忆，经验。所以，我必须，在对话中，这一点必须非常清晰：没有任何外在的影响强加到思想上，说它是受限的。所以，思想没有被强加 ——你明白吗？——其中就没有冲突，因此，它认识到它是局限的。因此，不管它做什么——崇拜上帝，崇拜基督，它的崇拜也是局限的，劣质的，琐碎的，虽然思想在欧洲和这里建起来宏伟的教堂。
1:14:09	So, there has been in my conversation with myself a discovery that loneliness is created by thought. And thought has now realised, itself, that it is limited, so it cannot solve the problem of loneliness. You understand? As it cannot solve the problem of loneliness, does loneliness exist? You understand my question? Thought has made this sense of loneliness. Right? And thought realises that it is limited and because it is limited, fragmentary, divided, it has created this, this emptiness, loneliness, therefore, when it realises that, loneliness is not. I wonder if you see this? Right?	所以，在和我自己的对话中，我发现了孤独是思想创造的。思想现在认识到它自身是局限的，所以，它不能解决孤独的问题。你明白吗？就像思想不能解决孤独的问题，孤独真的存在吗？你明白我的问题吗？思想创造了孤独的感觉。对吗？思想认识到它是局限的，因为它是局限的，碎片化的，分裂的，它创造了这种空虚，孤独，因此，当它认识到这些，孤独就不存在了。我不知道你认识到了吗？对吗？
1:15:30	So, therefore there is freedom from attachment. I have done nothing. You understand? I have watched it – the attachment – what is implied in attachment, greed, fear, loneliness, all that, and by tracing it, looking, observing it, not analysing it, examining, but just looking, looking, looking and there is a discovery that thought has done all this. Right? Thought because it is fragmentary, it has created this attachment. So, when it realises, attachment ceases. I wonder if you see this? There is no effort made at all, because the moment there is an effort, it is back again. You understand?	所以，因此，就有从依赖中解脱的自由。我什么都没做。你明白吗？我观察——依赖—— 依赖意味着什么，贪婪，恐惧，孤独，等等，通过追寻，观察，看着它们，不是分析，检验，而是看，看，看，其中就有对思想已经做过的一切的发现。对吗？思想因为它的碎片化，创造了这种依赖。所以，当它认识到，依赖就消失了。我好奇你看到这一点了吗？其中没有任何努力，因为当有努力的时刻，它就又回来了。你明白吗？
1:16:41	So, we have said if there is love, there is no attachment, if there is attachment, there is no love. So, there has been the removal of the major factor in negation of what it’s not, which is, love is not attachment. You know what it means in your daily life? No remembrance of anything, my wife, my girlfriend, or my neighbour told me, no remembrance of any hurt, no image about her because I am attached to the image, not to her. I am attached to the image thought has created about her. She has hurt me, she has bullied me, she has given me comfort – I have had a pleasant time sexually, this, that, ten different things, which are all the movement of thought, which has created the image, and it is the image I am attached to. So, attachment has gone.	所以，我们说，如果有爱，就没有依赖，如果有依赖，就没有爱。所以，这就移除了主要的因素，在否定不是爱的东西的过程中，依赖不是爱。你知道在日常生活中这意味着什么吗？不记忆任何事，我的妻子，女朋友，或者我的邻居告诉我的，不记忆任何伤害，没有关于她的意象，因为我依赖那个意象，不是她。我依赖那个思想创造的关于她的意象。她伤害了我，她霸凌我，我给我舒适感 ——我有过性的快乐的时光，这个，那个，等等不同的事，这些都是思想的活动，这些就创造了意象，而我就依赖那个意象。所以，依赖消失了。
1:18:06	But there are other factors: fear, pleasure, comfort in that person, or in that idea. Now, must I get through all these one by one, or all over? You understand my question? Must I go through, must I investigate, as I have investigated attachment, fear? Must I investigate the desire for comfort? Must I observe why I seek comfort? Is it because I am insufficient, I want comfort, I want a comfortable chair therefore I want a comfortable woman – or a man, or whatever it is, a comfortable idea? I think most of us do. Have a comfortable, secure idea which can never be shaken, and to which I am deadly attached, and so anybody who says, nonsense to that I get angry, I get jealous, I get upset because he is shaking my house. So, I say, I don’t have to go through all the investigation of all these various factors, I see it, at one glance, I have captured it. You understand, now?	但是，还有其他因素，恐惧，快感，那个人或者想法给我的舒适感。现在，我必须一个一个检视它们吗？你明白我的问题吗？我必须一个一个，探究，就像我探究依赖，恐惧吗？我必须探究对舒适的欲望吗？我必须探究我为什么寻求舒适吗？是因为我不满足，我想要舒适，我想要舒服的椅子，令人舒服的女人 ——或男人，或者其他什么，一个令人舒适的观点？我认为我们大多数人都是这样。拥有一个舒适的，安全的，从未被撼动的观点，我深深地依赖它，所以，任何人说它毫无价值，我都会生气，嫉妒，沮丧因为他动摇了我的房子。所以，我说，我不必挨个探究所有这些因素，我一眼就看到了，捕捉到了它。你明白吗？
1:19:50	So, through negation of what is not love, the other thing is. I don’t have to ask what is love. I don’t have to run after it. If I run after it, it’s not love, it is a reward. So, I’ve ended in that enquiry, slowly, carefully, without distortion, without illusion, I’ve negated everything that it’s not – the other is.	所以，通过否定不是爱的东西，那另一个事物就出现了。我不必问爱是什么。我不必追寻它。如果我追寻它，那不是爱，而是奖励。所以，我缓慢，小心的结束在这种探究中，没有扭曲，没有幻觉，我否定了所有不是的东西 ——那另一个事物就出现了。
1:20:28	Now, I’ve had a good dialogue with myself.	现在，我和自己有一个非常好的对话。
1:20:35	Q: Sir, can I ask a question? Maybe I didn’t get it? Did you say loneliness is created by the experience of loneliness?	问：先生，我能问一个问题吗？也许我没搞清楚。你是说是孤独的经验创造了孤独吗？
1:20:48	K: I’ve explained all this, madam. Not I’ve explained, I’ve had a dialogue with myself. If you have listened to it, then you’ll have got it.	克：女士，我已经解释过这一切了。不是我解释过，我和自己对话过了。如果你认真听，你就会明白。
1:20:59	What is the time?	现在几点了？
1:21:02	Q: Ten to one.	克：差十分一点。
1:21:05	K: Sorry. That’s enough, isn’t it?	克：抱歉，现在足够了吗？
1:21:08	Q: Yes. Thank you, very much. Q: Thank you.	问：是的，谢谢。问：谢谢。