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BR77D2 - 为什么意识一直在喋喋不休？
1977年9月1日
英国布洛克伍德公园第二次公开讨论



0:22 What shall we do this morning? Discussions are not possible with a large crowd like this, nor dialogues, but perhaps we can start with question and answers and see where it goes. May we do that? 今天早上，我们要做什么？ 这么多的人进行讨论是不可能的， 对话也不行， 但是也许我们可以从问答开始， 看看我们会到哪。我们要这么做吗？
0:41 Questioner: Yes.

K: Right. No questions? Yes, sir. 		问：是的。

克：好的。 没有问题吗？
0:54 Q: Sir, when one is totally attentive, there is no thought, but when there is thought one is being inattentive. Could we discuss about how this inattention comes about? 是的，先生。 问：先生，当一个人全然关注时，就没有思想， 但是，当有思想时，就没有全然的关注。 我们能讨论一下不关注是怎么产生的吗？
1:15 K: The gentleman would like to discuss, ask, talk over, together, the question of when there is complete attention there is no movement of thought, but thought arises when there is inattention, when there is no attention. So, could we go into this question? Any other...? 克：这位绅士想讨论， 当有全然的关注时， 就没有思想的运动， 而当思想升起， 就没有全然的关注。 所以，我们要讨论这个问题吗？
1:48 Q: Could we talk about education and responsibility? 还有其他问题吗？ 问：我们能讨论教育和责任的问题吗？
1:53 K: Education and responsibility. 克：教育和责任。
1:58 Q: Do you think, sir, that unconditional freedom of human mind is totally dependent on the ending of suffering and slaughtering of animals? 问：先生，你是否认为，人类意识的彻底的，无条件的自由， 完全依赖于结束折磨 及屠杀动物？
2:08 K: We’ve answered that question the other day, sir. You’re raising the same question, again. 克：那一天我们已经回答过这个问题了，先生。 你又问了同样的问题。
2:17 Q: Parents and children, please. 问：请讨论下父母和孩子吧。
2:20 K: Education and responsibility – so, what shall we talk over together? When there is complete attention, a total – not commitment, not concentration – but complete attention, there is no arising of thought. Is that so? Then, also, in that question was asked, when there is inattention, when there is no attention, thought arises. How is one, or is it possible to maintain total attention all the time? Isn’t that the question, sir? And education and responsibility. So, what shall we discuss? 克：教育和责任—— 所以，我们要如何讨论这一切？ 当存在彻底的觉察，彻底的 ——不是承诺，不是专注—— 而是彻底的关注， 思想就不会升起，对吗？ 然后，同样这个问题包含了， 当没有关注时， 思想就会升起。 一个人如何，或者是否可能保持全然的关注， 并始终如此？先生，是这个问题吗？ 还有教育和责任的问题。 所以，我们要怎么讨论？
3:25 Q: The first question, sir.

K: First question. 		问：先生，先讨论第一个问题。

克：第一个问题。
3:29 Q: Sir, before you begin, could you include in that something to do with the flowering of good? 问：先生，在你开始前，你能加入这个话题， 什么是良善的绽放吗？
3:38 K: Would you also discuss the nature of the flowering of goodness. 克：你可以也讨论良善的绽放的本质吗？
3:51 Perhaps we can include all these three questions in talking over, together, what is attention and that which is not attention. Shall we begin with that? Am I going to have a dialogue with myself, or will you join me, again?

Q: Yes. 		也许我们可以同时涵盖这三个问题， 在我们的讨论中， 什么是关注，什么是没有关注。 我们要从这里开始吗？ 我将要和自己对话， 或者你会加入我吗？

问：是的。
4:16 K: You know, having a dialogue with myself may be very amusing to you. I once saw a hole had to be dug for an electric conduit and there were about eight people, sitting all around, two men working. The others were smoking, talking, drinking and having a good time watching the others dig! So, it appears to me it will be the same when I have a dialogue with myself. 克：你知道，我和我自己对话， 也许对你们来说很有趣。 有一次我看到有人在挖一个安放电力设备的洞， 那里有八个人，站在周围，而只有两个人在工作。 其他人在抽烟，聊天，喝酒， 然后开心地看着那两个人挖洞！ 所以，对我来说，当我和我自己对话时， 似乎也是这样的。
4:57 K: So, in answering this question, what is attention, what is the nature of thought that ceases when there is complete attention, and when there is no attention, thought arises. That’s what we’re going to talk over, together. 克：所以，在回答这个问题，关注是什么， 思想在存在彻底的关注 时就会消失的本质是什么， 当没有关注时，思想就会诞生。 这就是我们要一起讨论的东西。
5:23 First of all, if one may ask, if one has gone into this question of what is awareness, what is it to be aware, otherwise we will not be able to understand totally, completely what is the full significance of attention. So, I think we ought to talk over, together, the question of what is awareness. Don’t you think?

Q: Yes. 		首先，如果一个人能否探究， 觉察是什么这个问题， 否则，我们不可能彻底地理解， 关注的全部的意义。 所以，我认为我们要一起讨论， 觉察是什么这个问题。 你认为呢？

问：是的。
6:00 K: I don’t want to have a dialogue with myself, please! 克：请注意，我不想和我自己对话！
6:09 Q: How does the concept of awareness come about, actually? 问：事实上，觉察的概念是如何产生的？
6:16 K: What is the concept of awareness, how does it arise, what is the necessity of awareness? Right, sir? 克：觉察的概念是什么，它是如何产生的， 觉察的必要性是什么？对吗，先生？
6:27 Q: No, what I mean is that the concept of awareness is unawareness, and it seems that in trying to be aware there’s a concept of awareness and this gets in the way. 问：不，我想问的是， 觉察的概念是不清楚的， 似乎在努力弄清 觉察的概念的过程中，就会有觉察。
6:43 K: That’s what we are saying. 克：这就是我们所说的。
6:44 Q: I think you have to find out where the concept of awareness, why is it we make concepts of things, which...? 问：我认为你必须发现觉察的概念， 为什么我们创造了这个概念……？
6:52 K: Wait a minute. I understand what you’re saying. Which is, why do we make concepts? Why do we make, out of a statement, which may be factual, a concept of it, an idea of it, a conclusion of it? Shall we deal with that, first, and go on into it? 克：等一等。我明白你所说的。 也就是，我们为什么创造概念？ 我们为什么，基于一个真实的陈述， 创造一个概念，一个想法，一个结论？ 我们应该首先处理这个，进入这个问题吗？
7:15 Someone makes a statement that politicians are generally crooked. And you make an image of politicians, or you draw a conclusion from it, but you never take the word and its whole significance without making an abstraction of it. You understand what I’m saying? We make abstractions of truth, of a fact, but we never look at the fact, but make an abstraction and then act according to that abstraction. That’s fairly simple. So, we’ll go into it. What is the concept of awareness – concept, that is, is there an idea of awareness, or are you aware? There’s a difference. The idea of being aware, or be aware. Let’s go into it a little more. The word ‘aware’ means to be sensitive, to be alive, to things about you – to nature, to people, to colour, to the trees, to the environment, to the social structure, the whole thing, to be aware, outwardly, of all that is happening outside and to be aware of what is happening inside – to be sensitive, to know, to observe what is happening inside and, also, what is happening outside, environmentally, economically, socially and so on, so on. Now, if one is not aware of what is happening outwardly and one begins to be aware inwardly, then one becomes rather neurotic. But, if one begins to be aware of what is exactly happening in the world, as much as possible, and then from there move inwardly, then you have a balance, then there is a possibility of not deceiving oneself. So, we will begin by being aware of what is happening outwardly and then move, like an ebb and a tide that comes in and then goes out, comes in and goes out, there is constant movement – out, in, in and out, so that there’s no deception. 一个人做了一个陈述， 例如政治家通常都是扭曲的。 然后你创造了一个政治家的意象， 或者基于此产生了一些结论， 但是你从不能抓住这些言语全部的重要性， 而不对它进行任何抽象。 你明白我在说什么吗？ 我们基于真理，事实，创造了很多抽象（的概念）， 但我们从不曾看事实，而是进行抽象， 然后基于那个抽象行动。 这很简单。所以，我们要探究这个问题。 觉察的概念是什么——概念， 是有觉察的想法，还是你真的在觉察？ 这是不同的。 觉察的想法，或者是觉察本身。 让我们深入一点。 “觉察”这个词意味着敏感， 警觉，对你周围的事， ——对自然，对人，对颜色，对树， 对环境，对社会结构， 对整个外在的事物，觉察， 这些都是发生在外在的事情， 同时觉察内在发生的事 ——敏感，了解，观察，内在发生的事， 同时，外在的环境发生了什么， 经济的，社会的，等等。 现在，如果一个人不觉察外在发生的事， 就开始觉察内在， 那他就会变得神经质。 但是，如果一个人从 觉察外在世界真实发生了什么开始，尽可能多的觉察， 然后从那里向内在活动， 然后你就能有一个平衡， 然后就有不自我欺骗的可能。 所以，我们要从觉察外在发生了什么开始， 然后向内运动，就像潮起潮落， 进来，又出去，出去，又进来， 这是持续的运动，——外内，内外， 所以就不会有自欺。
10:36 Why are we governed? Why is there a government? Why is there social difference – the poor and the rich, the various classes, racial differences, national differences, religious differences, all that is going on outwardly – wars, violence and every kind of brutal activity going on? And governments exist to rule, to govern, obviously. Without some kind of order there must be disorder, politically, religiously, all the rest of it. So, let’s find out what is order and what is disorder. Right? Can we begin with that? Because that’s what is happening. Outwardly, there is tremendous disorder. Right? Nobody can… 我们为什么被管理？ 为什么要有政府？ 为什么有社会阶级的差异——穷人，富人， 各种阶级，种族的差异， 国家，宗教的差异， 这一切都在外在发生着 ——战争，暴力，各种在进行的野蛮的活动？ 显然政府的存在就是为了管理，掌控。 没有某种秩序，就必然有失序， 政治的，宗教的，等等。 所以，让我们来发现什么是秩序，什么是失序。 对吗？我们能从这一点开始吗？ 因为这就是正在发生的事。 外在存在惊人的失序。 对吗？没有人可以
11:40 Q: Sir, could you just clear up one point? You said that one must be aware outwardly, first, otherwise there may be deception with inner awareness. Why is this so? 问：先生，你能先弄清这一点吗？ 你说，一个人必须首先先觉察外在， 否则内在的觉察就会带来欺骗。 为什么会这样？
11:51 K: The gentleman asks, if one is not aware outwardly what is happening and begins to be aware inwardly – I said there might be a possibility of deception, of not being able to see, clearly, what is happening inside because what is happening outside you can observe, see, hear, know – right? And you can judge. And, inwardly, if you know what is happening outside and from there move inwardly, you have then a criterion. I wonder if I am making...? This is fairly simple, I think. Sir, look. How am I to study myself? How am I to know myself? Which is, myself is a very complex structure, very complex movement, how am I to know myself, so that I don’t deceive myself? I can only know myself in my relationship to others. Right? In my relationship to others I may withdraw from others because I don’t want to be hurt. Or in my relationship I may discover that I’m very jealous, that I’m dependent, that I’m attached, that I’m really quite callous. So, relationship acts as a mirror in which one knows oneself. It is the same thing outwardly: the outer is the reflection of myself, because the society, the government, all the things we have created are created by humanity, by human beings. That’s all fairly obvious. 克：这位绅士问，如果一个人不觉察外在 在发生什么， 而开始觉察内在 ——我说这其中也许会有自欺， 不能清楚地看到内在发生什么， 因为你能看到外在发生了什么， 看，听，了解，对吗？你能判断。 同样的，对于内在，如果你知道外在发生了什么， 然后从那一点向内移动， 你就有了一个标准。 我不知道我是否……我认为这很简单。 先生，看，我要如何研究自己？ 我要如何了解自己？ 自我是一个非常复杂的结构，非常复杂的运动， 我要如何了解自己， 所以我不会欺骗自己？ 我只能通过和其他人的关系来了解自己。 对吗？ 在我和其他人的关系中，我也许想从其他人身边撤回， 因为我不想被伤害。 或者在我的关系中，我也许发现我是嫉妒的， 我依赖，我不独立， 我真的很冷酷。 所以，关系是一面镜子，通过它我可以认识我自己。 外在也是同样的， 外在是我自身的反映， 因为社会，政府，这一切都是我们创造的， 都是人类创造的。 这很显然。
14:09 So, in beginning to find out what is awareness, we must go into the question of what is order and what is disorder. Right? We see outwardly there’s a great deal of disorder, confusion and uncertainty. Right? Shall we go on from there? Now, what has brought about this uncertainty, this disorder outwardly? I know there is this disorder outwardly, who is responsible for all this? Are we? Be quite clear, please. Don’t be hesitant. Be quite clear whether we are responsible for the disorder outwardly, or it is some divine disorder out of which divine order will come. So, if we feel responsible for the outward disorder, then is that disorder an expression of our own disorder? 所以，在开始去发现什么是觉察时， 我们必须探究什么是秩序，什么是失序的问题。 对吗？ 我看到外在，有大量的失序， 困惑，不确定。 对吗？我们要从这里继续吗？ 现在，是什么带来了这种不确定， 这种外在的失序？ 我知道外在是失序的， 谁应当为此负责？ 是我们吗？ 请弄清楚，不要犹豫。 请弄清楚我们是否要为 外在的失序负责， 或者，从失序中将会诞生秩序。 所以，如果我们觉得我们对外在的失序负有责任， 那么这种失序是我们自身失序的表现吗？
15:30 Q: Most of us are confused, therefore the whole thing’s confused. 问：我们绝大部分人是困惑的，所以整个事情都是困惑的。
15:38 K: Quite. So, as we are generally confused we throw out – the gentleman suggests – confusion. So, I have learnt, observed, this disorder outwardly, is created by my disorder inwardly. So, as long as human beings have no order in themselves, there will be disorder, always. And governments try to control that disorder outwardly. The extreme form is totalitarianism where Marxism, Leninism, Maoism – is to say, ‘We know what order is, you don’t, we’re going to tell you what it is. Right? And suppress you, or concentration camps, psychiatric hospitals and all the rest of it follow. 克：是的。所以，既然我们通常都是困惑的， 我们抛出——正如这位绅士建议的——困惑的问题。 所以，我学到，观察到了外在的失序， 是被我们内在的失序创造的。 所以，只要人类自身没有秩序， 外在总是有失序。 政府尝试控制外在的失序。 其极端的形式就是极权主义马克思主义、列宁主义、毛主义 ——也就是说，“我们知道秩序是什么，你不知道， 我们来告诉你（秩序）是什么。对吗？ 然后就压迫你，或者各种集中营， 精神病院，其他一切都随之而来。
16:37 So, if the world is in disorder because we are in disorder, each one of us, then, are we aware of our disorder? Or is it a concept of disorder? You understand? I wonder… Am I...? 所以，如果这个世界是失序的， 因为我们彼此是失序的， 那么，我们觉察到自身的失序了吗？ 或者只是一个失序的概念？你明白吗？ 我想知道……我是否……？
17:02 Q: Oh, yeah.

Q: Yes, that is true. 		问：是的。

问：是的，就是这样。
17:06 K: Are we aware that we are in disorder? Or there is an idea which has been suggested that we are in disorder, therefore, I accept that idea? The acceptance of an idea is an abstraction, an abstraction of ‘what is.’ The abstraction is to move away from ‘what is’ – and most of us live in ideas, move away from facts. So, what is it we are doing now? Are we accepting a concept of disorder, or are we aware that we are ourselves in disorder? You understand the difference between the two? It is clear. Now, which is it? Aware of disorder in ourselves because somebody else has suggested it? And without somebody suggesting it, or having a concept of order, do we become aware, per se, for itself? I wonder. This is simple. Shall we go on from there? 克：我们觉察到自己是失序的吗？ 或者只是被人提出的，我们是失序的，的想法， 因此，我接受了这种想法？ 接受了某种观点，就是一种抽象， 对”事实之是“的抽象。 抽象就是偏离”事实之是“ ——而我们绝大多数人生活在观点中，偏离了事实。 所以，我们现在要做什么？ 我们是接受了一个失序的概念， 还是我们觉察到自身是失序的？ 你明白这两者的不同吗？ 这很清楚。现在，是哪种情况呢？ 觉察到我们自身的失序， 只是因为别人这么建议吗？ 没有别人的建议，或者秩序的概念， 我们能觉察失序本身吗？ 我想知道这一点。这很简单。 我们要从这一点开始吗？
18:31 So, am I aware of my disorder? 所以，我们觉察到自己的失序了吗？
18:40 Q: One is aware but one becomes very fearful, even to the point of considering suicide... 问：一个人能觉察到，但是他变得非常恐惧， 甚至会考虑自杀
18:48 K: Yes, sir, we’ll come to that in a minute. We’re coming to that slowly. Don’t… We’ll go slowly, if you don’t mind, step by step, not jump to any conclusion. Are we aware, am I aware, I and you aware that we are, in ourselves, in disorder? That is disorder! 克：是的，先生，我们稍后会讨论这一点。 我们会慢慢来。不要 我们要慢慢来，如果你不介意，一步一步来， 不要跳到任何结论。 我们觉察到，你和我觉察到， 我们自身处于失序之中吗？ 这就是失序！
19:24 Q: Sir, I feel there would be order if that young lady could be very quiet with her mother. 问：先生，我感觉如果那位年轻的女士 可以和她妈妈安静一些，我们会有更多的秩序。
19:28 K: Yes sir, what…? I am not responsible. 克：是的，先生，什么……？这不归我负责。
19:32 Q: I agree. 问：我同意。
19:37 K: So, are we, in ourselves, aware that it is disorder? And what do we mean by disorder? Not what is order, but what do we mean by disorder? Come on, sir. 克：所以，我自己认识到失序了吗？ 我们所谓的失序是什么意思？ 不是什么是秩序， 而是什么是失序？ 来把，先生。
20:01 Q: May I ask you a question on that point? It’s so difficult, we can only be aware of our disorder at this particular moment that thoughts come and go. May I ask you to expound how difficult it is, at any moment, to be actually aware of yourself. 问：我能就这一点问你一个问题吗？ 这很困难，我们只能在某些特定的时刻，当 思想进入时，我们才能认识到自己的失序。 我能让你来解释一下，任何时刻 都真正地觉察自己有多难吗？
20:23 K: Yes, sir. To be actually, at every moment, to be aware of this disorder. That’s why – please, if we’re serious, if we’re talking seriously, together – we’re asking each other what does it mean to be in disorder? 克：是的，先生。 真正地 ，每时每刻，觉察这种失序。 这就是为什么——如果我们是严肃的， 在一同严肃地讨论—— 我们问彼此所谓失序到底是什么意思？
20:46 Q: To be in contradiction with oneself, within oneself. 问：自己内在和自己有矛盾。
20:51 K: Yes, that means contradiction. Why are we in contradiction? 克：是的，这就是矛盾。 为什么我们处于矛盾之中？
21:00 Q: Because we have the ‘should be.’ 问：因为我们有“应当如何”的概念。
21:03 K: Look into yourselves. Please, look into yourself. Watch it. 克：看着你自己。请看着你自己。 看着它。
21:10 Q: One half thinks one thing and another bit thinks another. 问：一个人一半想着一件事，另一半却相反。
21:20 K: So, there is contradiction. You think one thing and do another. Say one thing and do something else and so on. There’s contradiction: opposing desires, opposing demands, opposing movements in all of us – duality. Right? Are we clear on this? May we go on? This duality. How does this duality arise? I am having a conversation with myself. 克：所以，这就是矛盾。你想一件事，却做另一件事。 说一件事，同时做另外的事。 这就是矛盾所在：矛盾的欲望，矛盾的要求， 我们所有矛盾的行为——二元性。 对吗？我们清楚这一点吗？我们要继续吗？ 这种二元性。 这种二元性是如何产生的？ 我在和我自己对话。
22:03 Q: From our conditioning, maybe. 问：也许来自我的制约。
22:07 K: Yes. Is it my conditioning? Is it our conditioning? 克：是的。是因为我的制约吗？
22:14 Q: Dissatisfaction.

K: Sir, look... 		问：不满足。

克：先生，看
22:16 Q: It’s a struggle between inner self and what we have been conditioned to accept. 问：我的内在有一种争斗， 这就是我们被制约去接受的东西。
22:20 K: So, we have been conditioned to accept, and not to accept, to obey and not to obey, to follow and the urge to be independent. So, that is, there is constant dualistic action going on, whether it is conditioned, or not conditioned. So, we are asking, how does this duality arise? 克：所以，我们被制约去接受，或者不去接受， 去服从，或者不去服从， 去追随，又急于独立。 所以，这就是持续不断的二元性的行动， 不论是被制约抑或没被制约。 所以，我们问，这种二元性是如何产生的？
22:58 Q: We compare ‘what is’ and ‘what should be.’ 问：我们把”实然“和”应然“做比较。
23:02 K: Are you doing that? Or is that an idea? 克：你在这么做吗？或者这只是一个概念？
23:07 Q: I’m doing that.

K: Good. I’m not trying to be sarcastic, sir. We’re talking factually, not theoretically, not in abstractions, not hypothetically, anything, but dealing with facts. Then we can go very far if we deal with facts. But if you go into abstractions, we’re lost. 		问：我在这么做。

克：很好。 我不是想讽刺谁，先生。 我们是在谈论事实，不是什么理论， 不是某种抽象的概念，不是任何假设， 而是在处理事实。 然后我们就能走的很远，如果我们在处理事实。 但是，如果你走进抽象的概念，我们就迷失了。
23:29 So, we’re asking, why does this contradiction arise, basically, – I know, education, culture, all the rest of it, but go beyond that, much more fundamentally, deeply. Why does this contradiction arise, between heaven and hell, God and the Devil – you follow? – this whole social, moral structure? 所以，我在问，根本上，这种矛盾是如何产生的？ ——我知道，教育，文化，等等， 但是超越这一切，更深层，更基础的。 为什么会有这些矛盾，天堂和地狱， 好和坏，——你明白吗？——这整个社会，道德的结构？
23:58 Q: From childhood we’re brought up to be, rewarded for being good, and punished for being bad. 问：从童年我们就被这样养大， 做好事被奖励，做坏事被惩罚。
24:07 K: Yes, sir, reward and punishment. 克：是的，先生，奖励和惩罚。
24:09 Q: So therefore, one is acting out of fear. 问：因此，一个人基于恐惧行动。
24:13 K: I’m asking, sir – we know that – we’re asking a much more fundamental thing. Why does this contradiction, division, exist, fundamentally? Go into it, much deeper than… Fear is involved in it but much further than that. 克：先生，我在问，——我们知道这些—— 我们在问更根本的问题。 根本上，为什么这些矛盾，分裂会存在？ 走进它，再深入一些 其中涉及恐惧，但是远不止于此。
24:43 Q: Is life just trying to balance these things all the time? 问：是否生活就是一直尝试平衡这些事？
24:47 Q: Is it due to a lack of awareness from without? 问：是否因为缺乏觉察？
24:54 Q: Sir, we call ourselves human beings but we have a lot of animal instincts in us. 问：先生，我们称自己为人类， 但是我们内在有很多动物的本能。
24:59 K: Yes. The animal instincts are based on reward and punishment – but it’s only domesticated animals, I believe, that have this reward and punishment conditioning. But, generally, I believe, they have told me, also, that wild animals don’t have, regard reward and punishment. They kill to eat, that’s all, but it’s not reward or punishment. Let’s leave that for the moment. I wish you would… 克：是的。动物的本能就是基于奖励和惩罚 ——但是我相信这只是被驯化了的动物， 才会被奖励和惩罚制约。 但是，整体上，我相信，他们也跟我说过， 野生动物不存在奖励或者惩罚。 他们杀戮是为了觅食，仅此而已， 但其中没有奖励和惩罚。 让我们暂时放下这个话题。我希望你
25:29 Shall I talk to myself? 我要跟我自己对话吗？
25:31 Q: No!

K: No! No! 		问：不。

克：不！不！
25:37 K: No, but you’re not following what I’m asking you. Please, just go into it. Fundamentally, why does this contradiction exist? 克：但是你没有跟上我问你的东西。 请走进它。 根本上，为什么会有这种矛盾？
25:52 Q: Thought? 问：思想？
25:54 K: Don’t guess, sir. Let’s go into it. 克：不要猜测，先生。让我们走进它。
25:58 Q: I think it is trial and error. 问：我认为需要反复实验。
26:02 K: Trial and error – no, no. 克：反复实验——不不。
26:08 Q: Sir, can that question really be answered? 问：先生，这个问题真的可以被回答吗？
26:14 K: I’m going to answer it. I am not conceited. I have enquired into this, sir – fifty two years I have talked about these blasted things! 克：我就要回答它。 我不是自负，先生，我已经调查过它了 ——我谈这些该死的东西谈了52年！
26:33 Q: Sir, is it not inherent in human conditioned consciousness? 问：先生，这不是人类意识天生的制约吗？
26:38 K: Is it inherent in human consciousness? If it is inherent, inborn, then we can’t do anything about it. 克：这是人类意识天生的吗？ 如果它是天生的，与生俱来的，那我们对它做不了任何事。
26:53 Q: I said ‘conditioned.’ 问：我是说”制约“。
26:54 K: Ah, inherent conditioning. It may be that. I want to go into it. 克：天生的制约，也许吧。 我要探究它。
27:00 Q: Is it because, in one sense, the opposites contain harmony, and they come into disharmony because we deceive ourselves. 问：是否因为在某种意义上，对立包含了和谐， 因为我们欺骗自己，才变得不和谐？
27:12 K: We deceive ourselves. 克：我们欺骗了自己。
27:14 Q: Mine’s because I want two things. 问：我是因为我想同时要两样东西。
27:18 K: Man, woman, light and shadow, courage and cowardice – you know, you can multiply, but why does this dualistic activity go on in us? You can explain – conditioning, instinct, inherent, we have been taught, and so on, so on. 克：男人，女人，光明和黑暗，勇气和怯懦 ——你知道的，你可以再举很多例子， 但是为什么这种二元性的活动会一直持续？ 你可以解释——是制约，内在的，天生的， 我们被这么教育的，等等。
27:44 Q: Because we are operating all the time from self-centred activity. 问：因为我们一直基于自我中心来行动。
27:48 K: Yes sir, self-centred activity and therefore there is division. I’m asking you why this division exists? I won’t ask anymore. You go on. 克：是的，先生，自我中心的活动，因此就有分裂。 我在问你，为什么会有这种分裂？ 我不会再问其他的。你可以继续。
28:02 Q: There is an urge and we don’t listen to it. 问：这里有一种紧迫性，我们没法去聆听。
28:06 Q: We try to be what we are not. 问：我们尝试变成不是我们的东西。
28:09 K: Don’t you want to find out? 克：你们不想弄清楚吗？
28:15 Q: I think there’s a lot of influence from a lot of groups of people. 问：我认为有很多的影响因素， 来自一大群人。
28:26 Q: Is it that we are too ready with intellectual answers? 问：是因为我们太接受智力上的答案了吗？
28:29 K: That’s right, sir. Just verbal answers, too quickly. If you don’t mind, go into it seriously and find out. Why is there this dualistic action: ‘what is’ and ‘what should be’? Right? The ideal and the fact – that’s good enough. ‘What is’ and ‘what should be.’ Look into that. Just take that. And why is there this division between ‘what is’ and ‘what should be’ – the ideal and... 克：对的，先生。太快了，只是词语的答案。 如果你不介意，严肃地深入这一问题，并搞清楚。 为什么会有这种二元性的行动：”事实之是”和“应该如何”？ 对吗？ 观念和现实——这就够了。 ”事实之是”和“应该如何”。看一看它。 只是就这一点。 为什么存在”事实之是“和 ”应该如何“的分裂 ——观念和
29:10 Q: It’s escaping from the fact. 问：这是在逃避事实。
29:16 Q: Because we think we know what should be. 问：因为，我们认为我们知道”应该如何“。
29:21 K: I’m asking you, my lady, why is there this division? 克：我在问你，女士，为什么会有这种分裂？
29:27 Q: Because we want to impress others. 问：因为我们想去影响他人。
29:29 K: I give up. You see how you make me have a dialogue with myself – which I don’t want. I’m asking a very simple question. 克：我放弃了。 你看，你们是如何让我（只能）和自己对话 ——我不想这样。 我在问一个非常简单的问题。
29:46 Q: I think it’s because sometimes what is good for me is bad for you and vice versa. 问：我认为这是因为，对我好的事情， 可能对你是坏的，反过来也一样。
29:58 K: I’m asking myself, and therefore, I’m asking you, why is there this division between ‘what is’ and ‘what should be’? 克：我在问我自己，因为，我就是在问你， 为什么会有这种”事实之是“和 ”应当如何“之间的分裂？
30:10 Q: We do not listen. 问：我们没有在聆听。
30:14 Q: If I’m living totally in the present, totally in the now, and I don’t have those thoughts. I don’t have thoughts, I’m totally aware. 问：如果我全然的活在现在，完全在现在， 没有那些思想， 彻底的觉察。
30:21 K: No, sir. Please, you’re not answering my question. 克：不，先生。你没有在回答我的问题。
30:26 Q: When I ask myself that question, it’s because I don’t particularly like ‘what is.’ 问：当我问自己这个问题时， 它是因为我不喜欢”事实之是“。
30:31 K: So, just begin with that. I don’t like ‘what is’ and I would like ‘what should be.’ The pleasure of ‘what should be’ is greater than ‘what is.’ Right? Take a simple thing like that, begin with that. That is, sir, I have no hope in this life, but I have a hope later on, next life and so on. So, what is the process of this division? 克：所以，就从这一点开始。 我不喜欢”事实之是“，我喜欢”应当如何“。 ”应当如何“带来的乐趣大于”事实之是“。 对吗？ 先举一个简单的例子。 先生，我的生活没有希望， 但是我对来生有希望。 所以，这其中的分裂是怎样的过程？
31:27 Q: Surely the evolution of consciousness, imagination, it’s always on the move, never, ever satisfied. 问：显然，意识的进化，想象， 它一直在运动，从未满足。
31:36 K: Is it, sir, that we are incapable of looking at ‘what is’? We would rather run away from ‘what is’ into ‘what should be,’ hoping somehow, by some miracle, by some effort of will to change ‘what is’ into ‘what should be’? Take that simple fact and begin with that. That is, I’m angry and I should not be angry. If I knew what to do with anger, how to deal with anger and go beyond it, there’s no need for ‘what should be,’ which is ‘don’t be angry.’ You understand my question, sir? If you can tell me what to do with ‘what is,’ then I won’t escape to ‘what should be;’ because I don’t know what to do with ‘what is,’ I hope by inventing an ideal, I can, somehow, through the ideal, change ‘what is.’ This is what is happening. No? Will you start from there? 克：先生，我们没有能力去看”事实之是“吗？ 我们从”事实之是” 逃离，逃到“应当如何”， 希望通过一些奇迹，或者某些基于愿望的努力， 把“事实之是”变成“应当如何”？ 再举一个简单的例子。 也就是，我生气，而我应当不生气。 如果我知道要对愤怒做什么， 如何处理愤怒并超越它， 就不需要“应当如何”了， 也就是“应当不生气”。 先生，你明白我的问题吗？ 如果你能告诉我，对“事实之是”做什么， 那我就不会逃到”应当如何”之中， 因为我不知道对”事实之是“能做什么， 我希望通过发明一种观念， 我能，某种程度上，通过这个观念改变”事实之是”。 这就是实际上正在发生的事。对吗？ 我们要从这里开始吗？
33:08 Q: If we remain with ‘what is,’ is there anything to do, at all? 问：如果我们和“事实之是”呆在一起，有任何需要做的事吗？
33:14 K: I’m coming to that, sir. Let’s look into it, first. Because I’m incapable, I don’t know what to do, my brain has been so conditioned that I’m always living in the future – ‘what should be.’ But I’m essentially living in the past. But I hope by living in the future, I can alter the present. Right? Now, if you were to tell me what I am to do with ‘what is,’ then the future doesn’t matter to me. Right? I wonder if you understand this. 克：我会谈到这一点的，先生，让我们先看一下。 因为我不能，我不知道要做什么， 我的脑子如此深受制约，我总是生活在未来 ——“应该如何”。 但是我本质上生活在过去。 因为我希望通过活在未来，我可以改变现在。 对吗？ 现在，如果你告诉我，要对“事实之是”做什么， 那么未来对我来说就没意义了。 对吗？我好奇你明白这一点吗？
34:01 Q: Yes. 问：是的。
34:04 K: It’s not a question of accepting ‘what is,’ but remaining with ‘what is.’ Right? 克：这不是一个接受“事实之是”的问题， 而是和它待在一起。 对吗？
34:13 Q: There’s a lot more implied than you’re actually bringing out in this, because I’m denied, the ‘me’ is denied when you stay with that. 问：这意味着很多，不止你 实际提到的，因为“我”被否定了， 当你和那个共处时，”我“被否定了。
34:22 K: I don’t want to go into the ‘me,’ yet. It is very complex, sir. Just begin with the simple. Which is, I am greedy, that is a fact. The abstraction of the fact is non-greedy. So, it means I have moved away from ‘what is.’ And, by moving away, I hope to understand ‘what is.’ Now, I can only understand something, if I can look at ‘what is’ and not run away from it, not try to change it into something else. So, can I, with your help, can I remain, look, observe, see ‘what is’? Nothing else! You understand my question? You’ve understood my question? Please, teach me. 克：我还不想讨论“我”的问题。 这很复杂，先生。先从简单的开始。 也就是，我很贪婪，这就是事实。 对事实的抽象就是不贪婪。 所以，这意味着我要从“事实之是”移开。 而通过移开，我希望能理解“事实之是”。 现在，我只能理解某事， 如果我能看着“事实之是”，而不从它身上移开时， 不尝试把它变成别的什么东西。 所以，我能通过你的帮助，我能保持，看着， 观察，“事实之是”吗？ 没有其他了！ 你明白我的问题吗？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 请教给我。
35:31 Q: The problem there, you see, is we don’t want ‘what is.’ 问：你看，问题是我们不想要”事实之是“。
35:34 K: Then escape.

Q: That’s what we’re all doing. 		克：然后就逃避。

问：这就是我们正在做的事。
35:37 K: Do it! But know that you’re escaping. 克：是的！但是去感知我们正在逃避。
35:40 Q: But that doesn’t change it. 问：但这不会改变它。
35:43 K: Know that you are escaping. Therefore, you haven’t solved a thing. 克：知道你在逃避。 因此，你没有解决问题。
35:47 Q: Quite right. 问：是的。
35:49 K: But be aware that you’re escaping, that you are running away, avoiding. 克：但是觉察到你在逃避， 你在逃离，躲开。
35:56 Q: Sir, the point is, one sees words coming in as soon as one tries to see ‘what is,’ one doesn’t do that. I see I am jealous – at least I do not see it, yet but the feeling is there, then the word ‘jealousy’ comes. 问：先生，问题是，一个人看到词语进入了， 只要一个人尝试去看”事实之是“，一个人不会那么做。 我看到我是嫉妒的——至少现在我没有看到， 但是那种感觉在那，然后”嫉妒“这个词就会介入。
36:24 K: Could somebody ask that gentleman to play the flute a little bit further away? There’s plenty of space! So, please, help me to understand how to deal with ‘what is’ – then my problem is solved. You understand? Then I won’t fight duality, there won’t be duality. So, please teach me, help me to understand and go beyond it, not remain in it – go beyond ‘what is.’ 克：有人可以让那位绅士 去远一点的地方吹笛子吗？ 那里有足够的空间！ 所以，请帮我理解如何处理”事实之是“ ——然后我的问题就被解决了。你明白吗？ 然后我就不会二元性的对抗，就没有二元性了。 所以，请教给我，帮助我，去理解它，然后超越它， 不是保持这样，——超越”事实之是“。
37:05 Q: Sir, the conflict between ‘what is’ and ‘what should be’ is a part of ‘what is.’ 问：先生，”事实之是“和”应当如何“的冲突， 就是”事实之是“的一部分。
37:12 K: No, sir, please sir. For the love... Of course, in a sense, it is but, please. Oh! 克：不，先生。 当然，某种意义上，是这样，但是，哦！
37:21 Q: You want to learn about something, that is your greed, and to learn about anything, you have to be attentive. 问：你想学到你是贪婪的， 去学任何事，你必须关注。
37:28 K: That’s what I’m coming to. Slowly, sir, slowly. Piano, piano. Please help me to understand ‘what is.’ How am I to look at ‘what is’? Right? If I know how to look at it, then I can begin to unravel it and then it’s finished. Right? Now, please help me to learn the art of observation of ‘what is.’ 克：就是这样。 慢一点，先生，慢一点。 请帮助我理解”事实之是“。 我要如何看着”事实之是“？对吗？ 如果我知道如何看着它，那我就能开始解开它， 然后就结束了。对吗？ 现在，请帮助我学习观察”事实之是“的艺术。
38:08 Q: Look at it without thought. 问：看而没有思想。
38:10 K: Oh...! How am I to look at it without thought? I don’t know.

Q: Be aware. 		克：哦……！ 我要如何没有思想的看？ 我不知道。

问：觉察。
38:22 K: You see, you’re not doing it. Do it, please. Then you won’t answer so quickly. 克：你看，你没有在做。现在就请这样做。 然后你就不会如此快的回答了。
38:32 Q: To look at ‘what is’ is very, very difficult. 问：看着”事实之是“是非常非常困难的。
38:35 K: I said, what is the art of looking? Please, if you give five minutes, two minutes attention to this marvellous thing, you will learn something. What is the art of looking? 克：我说，看的艺术是什么？ 如果你可以花五分钟， 花两分钟，关注一下这件惊人的事， 你就会学到一些东西。 看的艺术是什么？
38:55 Q: First you must have acceptance. 问：首先，你必须接受。
38:57 K: No, sir. It’s not acceptance. Just to look. 克：不，先生。不是接受，只是去看。
39:03 Q: Watch your thoughts. 问：看着你的思想。
39:06 K: Oh, no. I’m asking you – I give up! I’d better have a conversation with myself. I want to look at ‘what is.’ There must be a great deal of things involved in it. Right? Because we have looked. I know I am greedy but it doesn’t do anything. Greed is a feeling and I have looked at that feeling named ‘greed.’ The word is not the thing. But we may be mistaking the word for the thing. This is not intellectual, it is very simple. I may be caught in words but not with fact. The fact is I’m greedy. The word – it’s very complex, that’s why you should go into this, very deeply – the word may incite that feeling. Can the mind be free of the word and look? You follow what I’m saying? So, I must first learn whether the word has become important to me, in my life. Am I a slave to words, knowing that the word is not the thing? So, the word becomes important when the fact is not real, actual to us. I would rather look at a picture of a mountain than go and look at a mountain. Right? To look at a mountain, I have to go a great distance, climb, look, observe, feel. But by looking at a picture of a mountain – it’s a picture, it’s a symbol. It’s not reality. So, are we caught in words? If you’re caught in words, then you are moving away from the fact. So, does the word create the feeling of greed, or is there a greed without the word? Examination requires tremendous discipline, not suppression, the very enquiry and the pursuit in that enquiry has its own discipline. So, I have to find out, very carefully, whether the word has created the feeling, or the feeling exists without the word. The word is ‘greed,’ I have named it. I have named it because I have had that feeling before. So, I am registering the present feeling by a past incident of the same kind. So, the present has been absorbed into the past. Are you interested in all this? 克：哦，不。我在问你——我放弃了！ 我还是和我自己对话比较好。 我想看一看”事实之是“。 其中涉及到很多事。 对吗？因为，我们已经看过了。 我知道我很贪婪，但是它什么都做不了。 贪婪是一种感受， 我看着这种感受，然后命名为“贪婪”。 这个词语不是那个东西。 但是我们可能把这个词语错当成那个东西。 这不是智力的，这很简单。 我也许被词语困住，而不是事实。 事实是我是贪婪的。 那个词语——他很复杂， 这就是为什么你应该深入探究它 ——这个词语也许会唤起那种感觉。 思想能摆脱词语来看吗？ 你跟上我说的了吗？ 所以，我必须首先学到，是否词语 已经变成我生命中重要的东西。 而我成了词语的奴隶， 我知道词语不是那个东西吗？ 所以，词语变得重要， 而事实对我们不是真实的。 我看着一座山的照片， 而不是走出门，去看看那座山。 对吗？ 去看一座山，我必须走很远的距离， 要去爬，去看，去观察，去感受。 但是看一篇山的照片 ——它只是照片，只是一个符号，不是真实的。 所以，我们困在词语中了吗？ 如果你被困在词语中， 那么你就远离了现实。 所以，是词语创造了贪婪的感觉， 或者存在与词语无关的贪婪？ 探究需要巨大的纪律， 不是压制， 这种探究本身 有它自身的纪律。 所以，我要仔细地去发现， 是否是词语创造了这种感觉， 或者没有词语这种感觉也存在。 “贪婪”这个词，我命名了它。 我命名它是因为我之前有过这种感受。 所以，我用过去一件相似的事 来标记当下的感受。 所以，当下就被过去吸收了。 你对这一切感兴趣吗？
43:10 So, I realise what I’m doing. I’m aware what is happening. What is happening is that the word has become extraordinarily important to me. So, then is there a freedom from the word – communist, socialist, etc., etc., greed, envy, nationality and so on – is there a freedom from the word? The word is the past. Right? The feeling is the present recognised by the word as the past, so I’m living all the time in the past. So, the past is ‘me,’ the past is time, so time is ‘me.’ Look what I’m discovering – come on! Time is ‘me.’ So, the ‘me’ says, I must not be angry because my conditioning has been, don’t be angry, don’t be greedy. The past is telling the present what it should do. So there is a contradiction. So, I am finding out why there is contradiction. There is contradiction because fundamentally, very, very deeply, the past is dictating the present, what it should do. Which is, the ‘me,’ which is the past, with all its memories, experiences, knowledge, and the thing that it has put together by thought – the ‘me’ – which is the past, which is time, the past is dictating what should happen. 所以，我意识到自己在做什么。 我觉察到发生了什么。 发生的是， 词语对我来说变得很重要。 所以，是否存在从词语中解脱的自由 ——共产主义，社会主义， 贪婪，嫉妒，国家主义，等等—— 存在从词语中解脱的自由吗？ 词语就是过去。对吗？ 感受是现在，被词语也就是过去，认出来， 所以，我始终活在过去。 所以，过去就是”我“， 过去就是时间，所以”时间“就是我。 看看我发现了什么——请看一看！ 时间就是”我“。 所以，”我“说我必须不再生气， 因为我的制约是这样， 不要生气，不要贪婪。 过去在告诉现在要做什么。 所以，这其中就有矛盾。 所以，我在发现为什么会有矛盾。 根本上，最深的角度上，矛盾是因为 过去在指引现在， 应该做什么。 也就是“我”，就是过去， 带着它所有的记忆，经验，知识， 还有那些思想拼凑起来的事 ——”我“，也就是过去，也就是时间， 过去在指导应该发生什么。
45:25 Now, can I observe the fact – please listen – the fact of greed, without the past? Can there be observation of greed without naming, without getting caught in the word and understand whether the word has created the feeling, and if the word has created the feeling then the word is ‘me,’ which is the past, so the ‘me’ is telling, ‘Don’t be greedy.’ So, I’m asking myself whether it is possible to look at ‘what is’ without the ‘me,’ which is the observer. Right? Can I observe greed, the feeling and its fulfilment and action, without the observer, which is the past? You get it? Don’t say, ‘How to do it?’ You will do it as we learn, going along, it’s like learning to drive a car. You can’t say, ‘I’ll drive a car…’ You learn, day by day, looking, looking, looking, looking. Or, in one moment, you can learn the whole thing, but that’s much more difficult. I won’t go into that. 现在，我可以观察事实吗——请听一下 （观察）贪婪的事实，而没有过去吗？ 可以有对贪婪不命名的观察吗？ 不陷在词语里， 理解是否是词语创造了这种感受， 如果是词语创造了这种感觉， 而词语就是”我“，也就是过去， 所以”我“说，”不要贪婪“， 所以，我在问自己，是否有可能 没有”我“，也就是观察者 地，看着”事实之是“。 对吗？ 我可以观察贪婪，那种感觉，它的满足，它的行动， 而没有观察者，也就是过去吗？ 你明白吗？ 不要说，”如何去做？“ 你会在我们学习的过程中做到它， 这就像学习开车。 你不能说，”我要会开车……“，你一天一天地学习， 看，看，看，看。 或者，在一个瞬间，你能学到这一整件事， 但是这要困难的多，我不打算讲这个。
46:58 So, are we doing now what is being said? That is, ‘what is’ can only be observed, when there is no ‘me.’ Right? Can you observe without the observer? Go on, sir. 所以，我们现在在这么做吗？ 也就是，”事实之是“，只有在没有 “我”的时候，才能被观察。 对吗？ 你能观察而没有观察者吗？ 继续，先生。
47:26 Q: Only if it’s possible for me to look at it and not want to alter it. 问：只有当我可以看着 它，又不想改变它时，才有可能。
47:38 K: I’m going to show you, in a minute. Wait a minute. I’m asking, how you, then, observe? 克：我要展示给你，只要一分钟，稍等一分钟。 我在问，那么你要如何观察？
47:44 Q: Feel it. 问：感受它。
47:45 K: No, observe. Observe the tent, observe the colour round you, the shirts and the dresses around you – how do you observe it? What is observation? You observe through the eye, don’t you? Now, can you observe without moving the eye? Because if you move the eye the whole operation of the brain comes into being. I won’t go into this, because you’ll turn it into some kind of mystical, nonsensical thing, mysterious and, you know, occult and all the rest of that. Please, there is something mysterious in the world, hidden things, which you cannot possibly find, unless you have laid the foundation of righteousness – to live correctly, truthfully, without conflict, then you have all kinds of powers. But, if you start seeking powers of various kinds, then you’re lost, you become somewhat neurotic. 克：不是，观察。观察那个帐篷，观察你周围的颜色， 那件T恤，那些裙子，你要如何观察？ 观察是什么？ 你通过眼睛观察，不是吗？ 现在，你可以不移动眼珠的观察吗？ 因为如果你移动眼珠， 那大脑的整个活动都会进来。 我不想讨论这些，因为你会把它 搞成某种神秘的，无稽之谈， 神秘的，你知道的，神秘主义等等。 请注意，这个世界上存在某些神秘的， 隐藏的事物，而你不可能发现它们， 除非你打下了正确的基础 ——正确的，真实的，没有冲突的生活， 然后你就会拥有某些力量。 但是，如果你开始寻求各种形式的力量， 那你就会迷失，变得神经质。
49:07 So, can you observe, as you do with your eyes, to look without any distortion? The moment there is distortion the brain is in operation. By golly, I’ve got lots of things about it! You won’t meet it. You understand? Now, look at something without moving your eyes. How still the brain becomes. Have you noticed it? The moment you look all around, there is then taking all that in – I won’t go into that. Anyhow, how do you observe all this? You observe not only with your eyes but you observe with all your care, if you’re interested, you observe with care. Which means you observe with affection – care means affection. Right? No?

Q: Yes. 		所以，你可以观察，就像用眼睛观察， 没有扭曲的观察吗？ 当存在扭曲时，大脑就开始运动了。 天呐，我有很多这样的事！ 而你们不会了解它。 你明白吗？ 现在，不移动眼珠的看着某些事。 你注意到头脑变得多安静了吗？ 当你看着周围，所有一切都会被看到 ——我不再深入了。无论如何，你要如何观察这一切？ 你不只用你的眼睛观察， 而且用你所有的关注， 如果你感兴趣的话，你带着关注观察。 这就意味着你带着喜爱在观察——关注意味着喜爱。 对吗？不是吗？

问：是的。
50:18 K: So, is there an observation of the fact, not the idea, but the fact, with care, with affection? Is there an observation of violence with care and with affection? Therefore, there is no – you follow? Ah, you don’t see all this. It’s so simple, once you capture this! Attention implies care – begin with awareness – awareness implies care, affection. So, you approach ‘what is’ with care, with affection, Therefore, where there is affection, there is no judgement. Right? There is no condemnation, therefore you are free of the opposite. I wonder if you get this. 克：所以，有对事实的观察， 不是观念，而是对事实， 带着关注，喜爱的观察吗？ 有对暴力的，带着关注，喜爱的观察吗？ 因此，其中没有——你跟上了吗？ 哦，你没有看到这一切。 这很简单，一旦你抓住它！ 喜爱意味着关注 ——从觉察开始——觉察意味着关注，喜爱。 所以，你接近”事实之是“，带着关注，带着喜爱。 因此，有喜爱，就没有评判。 对吗？ 其中没有谴责， 因此，你摆脱了对立。 我不知道你们明白了吗。
51:36 Q: So, we have to love, very profoundly. 问：所以，我必须去深刻地爱。
51:39 K: Ah, not we have to love. That’s not an action of will. If there is to be an understanding of ‘what is,’ and ‘what is’ may be violence, greed, brutality, cruelty or affection or joy – awareness implies great care in looking. When you have a baby, don’t you – the mother cares infinitely, with affection, gets up at two, three or four o’clock in the morning, half a dozen times, watching, watching, watching. So, in the same way, where there is awareness, there is care, there is affection. Can there be observation, awareness of violence with care, to look at it with a great deal of care? See all its operation, what is implied, how it affects humanity – you follow? – the whole of it, what’s happening in the world, what’s happening inside, to look at it with infinite care and affection. Then there is no duality. The mother doesn’t say, ‘My baby is not so beautiful as that baby.’ It’s her baby! Later on, she might wish it. 克：哦，不是我们必须去爱。 这不是一件意志的行动。 如果存在对”事实之是“的理解， ”事实之是“也许是暴力， 贪婪，野蛮，残忍，或者是喜爱，愉快 ——觉察意味着带着巨大的关注去看。 当你有一个宝宝时， ——妈妈的爱和关注是无限的， 凌晨两三点或四点起床， 一遍又一遍的看，看，看。 所以，同样的，当有觉察时， 就会有关注，喜爱。 能有对暴力的，带着关注的，觉察，观察， 看，带着巨大的关注吗？ 看到它所有的机制，其中隐含的， 它如何影响人类，——你明白吗？——它的一切， 这个世界上发生了什么，内在发生了什么， 去带着无限的关注，喜爱去看。 然后就没有了二元性。 一个妈妈不会说，”我的宝宝不像那个宝宝那么漂亮。” 那是她的宝宝！ 之后，她也许会这么想。
53:29 So, awareness implies observing the fact, not the idea of the fact, but the fact of ‘what is.’ And, in that awareness there is infinite care, watching, affection – you know. Then, there’s no duality. Duality exists because we don’t know what to do with ‘what is.’ Now, when I know what to do with it, duality is non-existent. When I know, for example, that I’m greedy, I go into it very, very carefully. Is it the word that has incited the feeling? Or does the feeling exist without the word? I must find out that, first. That is, I see a shirt, material of a shirt and there is a perception, contact, sensation, the desire to have it, cut properly, put on – you follow? – the image begins. So, that is greed. Now, is there greed without the object? Oh, you people don’t know all this. 所以，觉察意味着观察事实， 不是关于事实的观点，而是“事实之是“的事实。 在这种觉察中，有无限的关注， 看，喜爱——你知道。 然后，就没有了二元性。 二元性只有在，我们不知道如何处理”事实之是“时才存在。 现在，当我知道对它做什么，二元性就不存在了。 当我知道，例如，我是贪婪的， 我非常仔细地探究它。 是这个词语唤醒了那种感受？ 或者没有词语，那个感受也存在？ 我必须首先发现这一点。 也就是，我看到一件衬衫，它的材料， 其中有感受，接触，感觉， 拥有的欲望，正确的裁剪，穿上它——你跟上了吗？—— 意象就开始了。所以，这就是贪婪。 现在，存在没有对象的贪婪吗？ 哦，你们完全不知道这一切。
55:10 Q: May I ask you a question about violence? (Inaudible.) 问：我可以问一个关于暴力的问题吗？ （听不清）
55:48 K: I don’t understand what you’re saying, sir. I can’t hear. If somebody has heard it, please repeat it and I’ll repeat it again, to see if I’m quoting the question correctly. 克：先生，我不理解你在说什么。 我听不到。如果什么人听到了，请重复一下。 我会再重复一遍，来确认我是否正确的引用了那个问题。
56:01 Q: Maybe when you observe violence there’s an immediate reaction to it and you become violent yourself. 问：也许，当你观察暴力，其中有立刻的反应， 你自身就变得暴力了。
56:07 K: Yes. So, when you observe violence there’s an immediate reaction to it, and that reaction may be another form of violence. Now, watch it! That is, you say something to me, which I don’t like and I become angry. It’s a tremendous question, sir, this, if you go into it. That is, not to register what you have said, either in the way of flattery or in the way of insult. If you don’t register, there is no reaction. You follow, sir? This requires a discipline of a totally different kind, watching yourself so completely, that you only register, as we discussed the other day, what is absolutely essential, nothing psychologically. To understand that and to go into it, to watch it, is its own discipline – you understand? Not imposed. There is its own – it says, ‘Look, look carefully, don’t move’ – you follow? – that itself is... Right. 克：是的。所以，当你观察暴力， 会有立刻的反应， 这种反应成了另一种形式的暴力。 现在，看着它！ 也就是，你对我说某事，而我不喜欢， 我生气了。 先生，这是巨大的问题，如果你探究它。 也就是，不要记录你说过的话， 不管是恭维还是侮辱。 如果你不记录，就没有反应。 你明白了吗？先生。 这需要完全不同的　纪律， 彻底的观察你自己，你只是在记录， 就像我们那几天讨论的， 心理层面没有绝对必要的东西。 去理解它，走进它，观察它， 这是它自身的纪律——你明白吗？ 不是强加的。这是它自身的，它说， ”看，仔细地看，不要移开“——你明白吗？ 它本身就是……对的。
57:30 So, we said duality exists in all of us, which is self-contradiction in various forms because we do not know what kind of action should take place with ‘what is.’ If I know it, there is no duality. You see, in India and all over the world, they have been preaching non-violence, especially in India, it started from there, probably with Tolstoy and much earlier. And the people who talk a great deal about non-violence, are very violent people because that’s a fact. They’re suppressing it, they are holding it, they are controlling it but they talk about it. But if you really understand violence, the whole of it, the word and so on, so on, then, there is no opposite at all. So, this is awareness. You understand? I’ve watched the world, violent, and I see that violence, that confusion exists because I have contributed to it, I am responsible for it. And to eliminate violence, I must understand the whole nature of violence – anger, imitation, conformity, accepting authority and so on, so on. Right? 所以，我们说，我们都存在二元性， 也就是各种形式的自我对立， 因为我们不知道，我们应该 对”事实之是”做什么。 如果我知道，就没有二元性。 你看，在印度，还有全世界， 人们祈祷非暴力，尤其是在印度， 从那里开始，也许是托尔斯泰，或者更早。 而那些大量讨论非暴力的， 是非常暴力的人，因为那是一个事实。 他们在压制它，保持它， 控制它，但是他们会谈论它。 但是如果你真的理解了暴力的全部内涵， 这个词语，等等， 然后，就根本不会有对立面。 所以，这就是觉察。你明白吗？ 我看着这个世界，暴力，我看到了暴力， 那些困惑会存在，是因为我贡献了一部分， 我对它负有责任。 而去消除暴力， 我必须理解，暴力的全部本质 ——愤怒，模仿，规范， 接受权威，等等。 对吗？
59:21 Now, when there is awareness, you can move to something else, which is, what is the difference between awareness and concentration? We learn at school to concentrate. I want to look out of the window and the teacher says, ‘Look, look at your book,’ so there is immediately contradiction. I want to see out of the window, what is happening out there, and the teacher tells me, ‘Look at the book’ – so there’s conflict. If I was a good teacher, I’d say, ‘First, look what is happening out there. Look at it with all your attention.’ You understand? ‘Look with great care at the tree, the bird sitting on it, the leaf moving in the wind.’ From that he learns attention – you follow? – learns awareness and so on. 现在，当有这种觉察时，你可以移动到另一件事， 也就是，觉察和专注的区别是什么？ 我们在学校里学习去专注。 我想去看窗外，老师会说， “看，看你的书”， 所以，这立刻就有矛盾。 我想去看窗外发生了什么， 而老师告诉我，“看书” ——这就是冲突。 如果我是一个好的老师，我会说， “首先，看看外边在发生什么。 用你全部的关注去看。“ 你明白吗？ ”用你全部的关注去看那棵树，树上的鸟， 还有风中的叶子。” 从这一点，他学到了关注——你明白吗？—— 学到觉察，等等。
1:00:30 So, one has to find out for oneself what is awareness, what is concentration, and what is attention. We have talked about attention, whether it can be maintained, sustained all the time. Or, if there is inattention, there is no attention? That’s one problem. Then the other is, what is concentration? Why do we give such tremendous importance to concentration? Go on, sir, I don’t want to come into a dialogue with myself. 所以，一个人必须为他自己发现，什么是觉察， 什么是专注，什么是关注。 我们讨论了关注， 它是否能被长时间保持。 或者，如果存在不关注，就没有关注？ 这是一个问题。 然后另一个问题是，专注（concentration）是什么？ 我们为什么赋予专注如此高的重要性？ 来吧，先生，我不想和我自己对话。
1:01:22 Q: Concentration is inattention. 问：专注是不关注。
1:01:25 K: No, no, don’t say inattention. We have to learn about it. What is concentration? Why do all of you who meditate under the tree or in your room, try to concentrate? Don’t you? 克：不，不要说不关注。 我们要去学习它。专注是什么？ 为什么你们都在树下，或者房间里冥想， 尝试去专注？ 你们不会吗？
1:01:50 Q: To achieve something. 问：去达成某事。
1:01:54 K: Sir, are we talking about the same thing? Are you talking about concentration? 克：先生，我们是在说同一件事吗？ 你是在讨论专注吗？
1:02:06 Q: You achieve something from concentration. 问：你通过专注达成某事。
1:02:11 K: I am asking what is concentration? Why do we give such importance to concentration? 克：我在问，什么是专注？ 你为什么如此强调专注？
1:02:17 Q: It suppresses the chattering mind. 问：它压制了喋喋不休的思想。
1:02:37 K: To suppress the chattering mind. You see what you have...? That means conflict, doesn’t it? Your mind is chattering and you suppress it, so there is duality, there is conflict, there is struggle. But you never say, ‘Why is my mind chattering?’ Not how to stop it. Why is your mind chattering? This is all so childish stuff! Why is one’s mind chattering? Is it habit? Is it laziness? Is it comforting? Go on, think it out, sir. Is it laziness that the mind has got into the habit and therefore it keeps on chattering, chattering, chattering? Is it your conditioning? Is it because it is afraid, very profoundly, if it doesn’t chatter what will happen? You understand? That is, most of our minds are occupied, whether in the kitchen, in the office, in the family, whether it’s in bed or cooking, it’s all the time occupied with something or other – why? Sir, this is so… 克：去压制喋喋不休的思想。 你看你做了什么……？这就意味着冲突，不是吗？ 你的意识在喋喋不休，而你在压制它， 所以，其中有二元性，有冲突，有挣扎。 但是你从不问，”思想为什么喋喋不休？“ 不是如何停止它。 为什么你的思想喋喋不休？ 这些都太幼稚了！ 为什么一个人的思想喋喋不休？ 是习惯吗？是懒惰吗？ 是因为它感到舒服吗？ 先生，想出它来。 是因为它懒惰，思想陷入了习惯， 因此一直喋喋不休，喋喋不休，喋喋不休？ 这是你的制约吗？ 是因为它深深的害怕， 如果它不喋喋不休，会发生什么吗？ 你明白吗？ 也就是，我们大部分人的意识都被占据， 无论是在厨房，在办公室，在家里， 在睡觉或者烹饪， 它一直都在被这个或者那个占据——为什么？ 先生，这是
1:04:32 Q: Does it really matter that the mind is chattering? 问：思想喋喋不休真的重要吗？
1:04:37 K: Oh, yes, it does. Wait, wait, I’ll show it to you why it matters if you don’t mind listening for a minute. It matters a great deal because it is a wastage of energy. It is like all the time walking, walking, walking. Please, answer this, why is the mind occupied with something? First, watch yourself. Please, don’t immediately answer, it becomes verbal and meaningless, but if you say now why is my mind occupied? Why is your mind occupied? 克：是的，它很重要。 等一等，我会向你展示它为什么重要， 如果你不介意多听一分钟。 这很重要，因为它是一种能量的浪费。 就像一直在走路，走路，走路。 请回答这一点，为什么思想被某事占据？ 首先，观察你自己。 请不要立刻回答，那就会语言化而毫无意义， 但是如果你现在说，为什么思想被占据？ 你的思想为什么被占据？
1:05:18 Q: Because the mind is not free.

K: No, no. Is it afraid that if it is not occupied what would happen? 		问：因为思想不是自由的。

克：不，不。 是因为它害怕，如果他不被占据，会发生什么吗？
1:05:29 Q: It would have no existence if it wasn’t occupied. 问：如果它不被占据，它就不存在了。
1:05:31 K: Wait, wait, that’s just it, sir. Because it has no existence? So, it says, ‘I exist because I am chattering’? Oh, you don’t see all this! 克：等等，等等，就是这样，先生。是因为它不存在吗？ 所以，它说，”我存在是因为我在喋喋不休？” 哦，你们没看到这一切！
1:05:44 Q: That’s what Descartes said. 问：这就是笛卡尔所说的。
1:05:47 K: So, I’m asking you why is it your mind is occupied? If it was not occupied, it’s empty, isn’t it? And you’re frightened of that, aren’t you? So, fear is dictating that you should be occupied with something, so as to escape from fear – and chatter, chatter – is that it?

Q: Yes. 		克：所以，我在问你，为什么你的意识被占据？ 如果它不被占据，它就是空的，对吗？ 而你害怕它，对吗？ 所以，恐惧驱使你被某事占据， 所以，为了逃避恐惧——喋喋不休，喋喋不休—— 是这样吗？

问：是的。
1:06:19 Q: To avoid what can’t be controlled. 问：避开不能被控制的东西。
1:06:21 K: To avoid. So, your mind is occupied and an occupied mind – you know what it is when a mind is occupied: it is useless. Right? Isn’t it? It may be thinking of God and saying, ‘God, God,’ or whatever it does, and read books about God, and never look at anything else – it is an utterly meaningless and useless mind. So, a mind that’s occupied is not only useless but it has no vitality. Right? And it has no – I won’t go into all this, it’s too difficult. You know, we are so afraid of being empty. You understand? Of being nothing. So, occupation implies a mind that is wasting its energy. And to avoid all that chattering, you concentrate on something. You say, ‘I won’t chatter, I’ll look at this picture, at this poem, at this face’ and look. But you’re not looking because it’s occupied. Right? Whereas, to look there must be no occupation. 克：避开。所以，你的思想是被占据的， 一个被占据的思想 ——你知道当思想被占据是它是怎样的，它是无用的。 对吗？不是吗？ 他也许在思考上帝，并且说 “上帝，上帝”，或者不管什么东西， 读关于上帝的书，从不看其他任何东西 ——这是彻底无意义且无用的思想。 所以，被占据的思想不只是无用的， 它也没有活力。 对吗？ 它也没有——我不想走到那一步，这太难了。 你知道的，我们都害怕空。 你明白吗？ 不存在。 所以，被占据意味着思想在浪费它的能量。 去躲避这一切，你喋喋不休，专注在某事。 你说，“我不会喋喋不休，我会看着那副画， 那首诗，那个脸庞，看。“ 但是你没有在看，因为你被占据了。 对吗？ 因此，去看，必须不被占据。
1:08:02 Q: Yes, yes. That’s right. 问：是的，是的。
1:08:05 K: Which means you look without concentration. Concentration then becomes an occupation – I must concentrate. I mustn’t allow any thought to come in etc., etc. So, you’re building a wall round yourself in order to concentrate, which becomes a conflict. I wonder if you… Right?

Q: Yes, yes. 		克：这也意味着没有专注的看。 专注就是一种占据——我必须专注。 我必须不允许所有思想进来，等等。 所以，你在自己周围筑起了一道墙， 为了去专注，而这会造成冲突。 我好奇，是否你……对吗？

问：是的，是的。
1:08:31 K: So, awareness, we have gone into. Concentration – we can go much more deeply into it but we haven’t time, there’s a great deal involved in it, because, you know, when you concentrate you’re bringing about greater importance to the self, unconsciously. I may give my concentration in the office, or in the factory, or in the garden or whatever it is, that concentration becomes very important to me. Haven’t you noticed it? Because through that concentration I’m going to get something – a reward. So, that is the question of concentration. Attention is something entirely different from awareness in which there is no choice, concentration which is focussing all your energy on a particular thing, thereby becoming a specialist – specialist as a gardener, professor, or whatever you like, which gives you tremendous importance, to oneself. Now, we said attention has nothing, whatsoever, to do with either, because in attention there is no centre from which you are observing. You are attending. Right? Have you ever… give your… Now, look. I’m saying something, give your whole attention, attention, your nerves, your body, everything, listen with such tremendous attention and you will see there is no centre as ‘me’ who is listening. You’re just listening. So, where there is attention, there is no ‘me.’ Obviously. There is no centre and therefore, there is no periphery, there is no distance from the centre to an end, there is only a space in which there is complete attention, without border. That becomes… So, what is then not attention? Right? Because most of us attend, very seriously, for a couple of seconds and then seeing what it does, we want to maintain it, practise attention, go to various schools where you learn to be attentive, or follow some guru who’ll tell you how to be attentive, practise and all the rest of it, which is all nonsense. 克：所以，觉察，我们都探究过了。 专注——我们可以探究得更深， 但是我们没有时间，其中涉及到很多事物， 因为，你知道，当你专注时， 你赋予了自身极大的重要性， 无意识地。 我也许要在办公室，工厂，或者 花园，或者无论哪里专注， 而那专注变得对我很重要。 你注意到了吗？ 因为，通过专注，我能得到某事 ——一个奖励。 所以，这就是专注的问题。 关注是某种和觉察（口误？应该是专注？）完全不同的东西， 因为其中没有选择。 专注是把所有能量集中在某件特定的事上， 因此变成了专家 ——专家园丁，专家教授，等等， 这给了自我巨大的重要性。 现在，我们说关注完全与此无关， 因为关注没有一个你去观察的中心。 你只是关注。对吗？ 你们有做吗？现在，看。 我在说一些事，而你给予了全然的关注， 关注，你的神经，你的身体，所有一切， 带着巨大的关注聆听， 你就会看到其中并没有一个”我“的中心在聆听。 你只是在聆听。 所以，哪里有关注，哪里就没有”我“。 很显然。其中没有中心，因此，就没有外围， 也就没有从中心到终点的距离， 只有彻底的关注的空间， 没有边界。它变成了 所以，那么什么是不关注？对吗？ 因为我们中的大多数，是非常严肃地聚在这里， 然后看看它在做什么，我们要保持住它， 练习觉察， 去各种可以学习觉察的学校， 或者追随某些古鲁大师，他们告诉你如何觉察， 练习，等等，这些都是无稽之谈。
1:11:58 To attend – which means to give your whole attention, whole attention in observing, which means keeping your eyes absolutely still and looking. Will you all do some of all this or am I talking vainly, as usual? 觉察—— 也就是意味着给予你全然的关注， 观察中的，全然的关注， 也就意味着保持你的眼珠彻底不动， 然后看。 你会这么做吗？或者像往常一样，我只是白费口舌。
1:12:27 Q: No. 问：不。
1:12:29 K: Look, sirs, this is very important what we’re talking about because responsibility becomes then an extraordinary importance, relationship. That lady asked what is the relationship between education and responsibility? If I have a child and I’m responsible for it, unfortunately, and how am I to educate him? It becomes – you follow? – a tremendous problem. Send him to an ordinary school where he is turned out to be like the rest of the world? You follow? And all the rest of it. What is your responsibility as a mother, a father, a parent? What is your responsibility? You are tremendously responsible while they’re two or three years old, watching over him, careful, you know, dressing him properly… After five or six, send him off to school and you have wiped your hands off. So, this is not an educational meeting – we can go into that another time. 克：看，先生，我们讨论的东西很重要， 因为责任感变成了无比重要的， 关系。 那位女士问什么是 教育和责任感的关系？ 如果我有一个孩子，我就对它负有责任， 不幸地， 我要如何教育他？ 它变成了一个巨大的问题——你跟上了吗？—— 送他去通常的学校，在那里他被变得 和这个世界其他人一样？ 你明白吗？所有那一切。 你作为一名母亲，父亲，教育者的责任是什么？ 你的责任是什么？ 你负有巨大的责任 当他们只有两岁或者三岁大， 仔细地照顾他们，你知道，恰当的衣着 五六岁之后，送他们去学校， 然后你就撒手了。 所以，这不是一场教育的讨论 ——我们可以下一次举办。
1:13:56 So, conflict ends with the understanding of ‘what is.’ Right? You understand, now? If I have learnt a great deal about ‘what is,’ there is no necessity for the opposite. Right? 所以，冲突结束了，当理解了”事实之是“时。 对吗？现在，你明白了吗？ 如果我学到了很多”事实之是“， 对立面就没有必要性了。 对吗？
1:14:20 Is that enough for this morning? What is the time? 今早够了吗？现在几点了？
1:14:24 Q: Quarter to one. 问：十二点三刻。
1:14:27 K: Quarter to one. Just right. May I go now? That’s enough. 克：十二点三刻。很好。 我可以走了吗？这足够了。
1:14:31 Q: Thank you. 问：谢谢。