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BR77T1 - 有可能看到思想的局限吗？
1977年8月27日
英国布洛克伍德公园第一次公开对话



0:24 I suppose one must have this great light on oneself! Sorry. Sorry it isn’t on you. 我认为每个人心中都应该有这么亮的光！（指电灯） 可惜，这灯光没有照到各位身上。
0:49 I presume that most of you are here because you are serious people, that you are really concerned with the radical transformation of one’s consciousness, its movement which is the structure, and its nature. And, if one is not serious, I don’t see the point of your coming here, at all. It is a waste of your energy, waste of your money, waste of all kinds of things that you might be doing, otherwise. So, please, we are rather serious people – at least the speaker is, and we should consider the various issues that face us in our daily life, both political, economic, social, personal and global. 我假定你们中的大多数到这里来，是因为你们都是严肃的人， 你们真的关心 人的意识的彻底转变， 意识的活动也就是它的结构，它的本质。 如果一个人不够严肃， 我不知道他为什么要来这。 这是在浪费你的能量和金钱， 你本来可以做其他的事。 所以，我们都是严肃的人 ——至少演讲者是， 因为我们要一同考虑各种问题， 我们日常生活中遇到的各种问题， 包括政治上的，经济上的，社会的，个人的，以及全球的问题。
2:06 Perhaps some of you are already familiar with what we’re talking about, but familiarity does not necessarily lead to contempt, or neglect, or saying it is old, repetitive stuff. But, rather, together, and we mean together, actually together, you and I, go into these problems, sharing them together, investigating them together, exploring the whole content of our consciousness, and therefore our action in our daily life. That’s what we are primarily concerned with. And, if one is at all serious, please, give your attention to this for at least an hour this morning – at least, for an hour. 也许你们中的一些十分熟悉 我们要讲到的内容， 但是熟悉不意味着轻视， 忽视它，或者说这都是老旧的、重复的东西。 此外，我们所谓的“一起” 是真的要“一起”，你和我，一起探究这些问题， 共同分享它们，探索它们， 探究我们意识的全部的内容， 我们日常生活中的行动。 这是我们最关心的。 如果一个人真的够严肃， 请给予你的关注，至少今天早上的这一个小时， ——至少一个小时。
3:15 I don’t know quite where to begin but we’II plunge into it – simpler. 我不知道如何开始， 我们简单点，直接切入话题吧。
3:23 I think one should be aware of three fundamental issues in our daily life: which is compassion, clarity and skill. We are educated in the field of being very skilful in dealing with our life – skilful, in the sense, being clever, applying a great deal of knowledge which we have acquired through education, through experience, and act skilfully, both in a factory, in a business, in our daily life. That skill becomes a routine, a repetitive action. And that skill when it’s highly developed, as it should be, becomes, is a means of self-perpetuation, self-importance, self-aggrandisement. So, the skill has led us to this present state, both technologically, as well as in our relationship, how to deal with each other, rather skilfully. Not clearly, not with compassion, but skilfully. So, is there an action which is skilful in our daily life and yet not perpetuating the self, the ‘me,’ the importance given to oneself and to one’s activities, one’s self-centred existence, – to act skilfully, without strengthening the self? Because it’s one of our problems. I’m sorry it’s raining so much, you’re all out there. What shall we do? British climate! 我认为一个人应当觉察到 三个我们日常生活中根本的问题： 也就是慈悲，清晰和技巧。 我们被教育要 充满技巧的处理我们的生活 ——充满技巧，也就是聪明的， 应用许多我们获得的知识， 通过教育和经验获得的知识， 然后充满技巧的行动， 不只是在工厂里，在事业上，也要在日常生活里这样。 这些技巧变成了一种例行公事，一种重复的行动。 当这些技巧高度发达时，他们就 变成了自我的延续， 强调自我的重要性，进而使自我膨胀。 所以，技巧带我们走到了今天这一步， 包括技术领域以及我们的关系， 如何充满技巧地面对彼此。 不是清晰的，不是带着慈悲的，而是充满技巧的。 所以，存在一种日常生活中的技巧性， 它并不会延续自我，也就是”我“， 不会赋予自我及其行动重要性， 也不会导致自我中心吗？ ——充满技巧的行动，同时不会加强自我。 这就是我们的问题之一。 我很抱歉雨这么大，你们还在外边。 我们能做什么吗？ 这就是英国的天气吧！
5:55 So, is there an action in our daily life which is both skilful and not perpetuating the self? That’s one problem. Because through our education, we have developed, through experience, this enormous skill, and therefore it has given us a great deal of strength, vitality and comfort in the realm of skill and therefore perpetuating the self. Now, is there an action which is free of that and yet skilful? And, to go into that, one has to question what is clarity, because you cannot act skilfully without clarity. I hope we are travelling together and not my talking to myself, I can do that in my room, but if you will kindly join, take the responsibility to investigate in what we are talking about, together, then it’II have some value. 所以，我们日常生活中是否存在这样一种行动 既是充满技巧的也不会延续自我？ 这是一个问题。 因为我们通过教育， 通过经验发展出了 大量的技巧， 它给了我们巨大的力量和活力感， 在技巧领域的舒适感，因而延续了自我。 现在，存在一种行动是自由的，同时又富有技巧性吗？ 去探究这一点，一个人必须探究什么是清晰， 因为你不可能充满技巧的行动同时又没有清晰感。 我希望我们是在一起前进，不是我讲给我自己听， 我可以在自己房间里这么做， 但是如果你们热切的加入， 负起责任去共同探索， 我们一起讨论的东西， 这些讲话就会有一些价值。
7:23 So, what is clarity? Because we see if there is clarity then there is action which is skilful and not self-perpetuating. I’II show… we’II go into that. Clarity can exist only when there is freedom to observe, when one is capable of looking, observing, watching. That is only possible when there is complete, total freedom, otherwise there is always distortion in our observation. I think that is fairly simple: simple in words but, in action, it becomes terribly difficult. So, is it possible to be free of all the distorting factors in our outlook? When you observe yourself or another, society, the politicians, the environment, the whole cultural, religious movement that is going on in the world – so-called religious movement – can you observe without any prejudice, without taking any sides, without projecting your own personal conclusions, your beliefs, your dogmas, your experience and knowledge, and, therefore, be totally free of all that, to observe clearly? That is the second problem. 所以，什么是清晰感？ 因为如果存在清晰感，就会有行动， 这种行动富有技巧同时又不会延续自我。 我会展示给你们……我们会讨论到的。 只有存在自由地观察时， 当一个人能够去看，观察时，清晰感才能存在， 只有存在彻底的，完全的自由时，这才有可能， 否则我们的观察中总是会有扭曲。 我认为，这很简单，从言语上看很简单， 但是要做到就极其难了。 所以，有可能从所有 扭曲我们观察的因素中解脱出来吗？ 当你观察自身，或者他人，社会， 或者政治家，环境， 整个文化，宗教活动等等 发生在这个世界上的事时， ——所谓的宗教活动—— 你能不带偏见的观察吗？ 不偏袒任何一方， 不投射你个人的结论， 信仰，教条，你的经验还有知识， 因此，可以完全从这一切中解脱出来，进而清晰地观察吗？ 这是第二个问题。
9:23 The third problem is compassion. The word is not the thing. One may describe what is compassion in a most eloquent, poetic manner, but whatever is expressed in words, is not the thing. So, we are going to find out these three things: what is compassion, because without compassion, there’s no clarity, without clarity there’s no skill – they are totally interrelated with each other. So, we are going to investigate these three problems: whether human beings, as we are now, can have this extraordinary sense of compassion in our daily life, not a theory, not an ideal, not something to be achieved, to be practised and all the rest of it, to have it totally, completely, at the very root of our being. That is one question. 第三个问题是慈悲。 词语并不是那件事。 一个人也许会用最雄辩，诗意的方式，描述什么是慈悲， 但词语能表达的，并不是那件事本身。 所以，我们要一起探究这样三件事：什么是慈悲？ 因为没有慈悲就没有清晰感， 没有清晰感就没有技巧性 ——它们都是彼此相关的。 所以我们要探究这三个问题： 像我们现在这样的人类，是否 可以在日常生活中拥有非凡的慈悲的感觉， 不是理论上的，不是观念上的，不是某件要去达成的事， 或者要去练习的事，等等， 而是在我们存在的根本上拥有彻底的，完全的慈悲。 这是一个问题。
10:47 Then, from that arises: can there be clarity? Because one can be very clear in our thinking, objectively, rationally, sanely. But reason, however logical, however objective, is very limited – obviously. Right? I hope we are travelling together, moving together. And clear thinking has not solved our problems. The philosophers, the scientists, the so-called religious people have thought very clearly about certain things, but in our daily life, clear thinking has not resolved our issues. Right? One may think, very clearly, why one is envious or violent but the ending of violence cannot be brought about through clear thinking. Clear thinking implies a limitation because thought itself is limited, thought itself is conditioned, thought itself has its own boundaries. And thought may try to go beyond its boundaries and invent a logos, a deity, a Utopian State and so on but it is still limited because thought is the movement of memory, which is experience, knowledge and that is always from the past, therefore, thought is time-bound. Can I go on with all this? You are following somewhat? Please, I’m not preaching. I’m not doing any propaganda. We are not trying to convince you of anything. And we really mean that – at least, I mean it. Absolutely no sense of authority, no sense of trying to persuade you to think in a particular direction, doing any kind of propaganda, trying to convince you of something, or trying to make you join something – nothing. 然后，从这个问题中衍生出来，可能有清晰感吗？ 因为一个人可以清晰的，客观的， 理性的，富有理智的思考。 但是，理智，无论如何富有逻辑性，如何客观，都是有限的， ——这很显然，对吧？ 我希望我们在一起前进。 清晰的思考并没有解决我们的问题。 心理学家，科学家，所谓的宗教人士 已经很清晰地思考了很多问题， 但是在我们的日常生活中， 清晰的思考并没有解决我们的问题。 是吗？ 一个人可能思考的非常清晰，为什么人类是嫉妒或者暴力的， 但是暴力的终止， 并不能通过清晰的思考实现。 清晰的思考意味着局限， 因为思想本身是局限的，受制约的， 思想本身有自己的边界。 思想也许会尝试超越自身的边界， 创造出一个标志，一个神，或者一个乌托邦等等， 但这些依然是受限的，因为思想就是记忆的活动， 也就是经验和知识， 这些永远来自于过去， 因此，思想永远是受时间制约的。 我们能继续下去吗？你们跟上了吗？ 请注意，我不是在讲道，也不是在做任何宣传。 我不是在尝试说服你做任何事。 我真的是这个意思，至少，我就是这么想的。 完全没有权威感，没有要说服你 沿特定方向思考的努力， 或者做任何宣传， 或者尝试说服你做某事， 或者尝试让你加入某事——完全不存在这样的事。
13:42 So, is it possible to see the limitations of thought and give it its right place, and therefore giving the right place to thought brings about clarity. Right? We mean by right place – the art of that intelligence which comes through investigation, through exploration, that art – the very meaning of that word is to put everything where it belongs, put everything in our life where it belongs and to find out where it belongs, you need tremendous intelligence. And that intelligence can only come about when there is compassion, not direction by will, not following a certain pattern of thought, but in the process of investigating what is compassion, in that movement, or out of that movement, comes an intelligence, which is not personal or individual, it is intelligence. That’s what we’re going to find out. Right? Is it possible to awaken that intelligence which will bring about order in our daily life, and therefore socially, politically, in every direction? Because we are the centre of society. Right? We make what society is. So, we are essentially the product of the past, and whatever we do is limited by the past, by time and any revolution, whether physical or psychological, brought about by thought, is limited. 所以，有可能看到思想的局限性， 从而给它正确的位置吗？ 因为赋予了思想正确的位置， 也就带来了清晰。 对吗？ 我们所谓的正确的位置 ——也就是智慧的艺术， 只有通过觉察，探索来获得， 艺术——这个词本身的意思 就是把所有事放到他们应该在的地方， 把生活中的所有事放到他们应该在的位置， 只有拥有巨大的智慧，你才能知道他们应该在哪里。 只有存在慈悲时才会有这样的智慧， 不是被愿望指引，不是追随某种特定的思想的模式， 而是在探索的过程中，就会有慈悲， 在这种运动中，就会诞生智慧， 不是个人的或者个体的智慧，而是智慧本身。 这就是我们要探究的东西。 是吗？ 是否有可能唤醒这种智慧， 这种智慧就能在日常生活中带来秩序， 因此就会有社会的，政治的，各个方向的秩序？ 因为我们就是社会的中心（因素）。对吗？ 我们创造了现在这个社会。 所以，我们根本上是过去的产物， 无论我们做什么都是被过去，被时间制约的， 无论物理还是心理的革命， 只要是由思想带来的， 就是受限的。
16:43 So, we are going to find out, examine together, what is compassion: what is clarity and a skill that is born out of clarity and compassion. Not skill by itself, because that has led us to all kinds of miseries, obviously. One can see it. So, where shall we begin? With compassion? Or with clarity? Or with skill? Bearing in mind that clarity can only come out of compassion, and any skill born out of that clarity, is not giving importance to the self. Right? I wonder if we are meeting somewhat with each other? Yes, sir? 所以，我们要一起探究， 什么是慈悲： 也就是清晰，以及 诞生于慈悲和清晰中的技巧性。 不只是技巧性本身，因为 技巧只带来了各种不幸，很显然，一个人能看到这一点。 所以，我们要从何处开始？ 从慈悲开始？或者清晰？或者技巧性？ 请记住清晰只能来自慈悲， 而源于清晰的技巧性， 不会强调自身。 是吗？我想知道我们能彼此理解吗？ 是吗？先生。
18:01 So, I would like to begin with compassion. To understand the whole meaning and the depth of that word, one has to investigate the movement of our consciousness, of our consciousness – yours. Which means you are the world, and the world is you. That is an obvious fact, one must go into it a little bit, which is: wherever you go in the world, east or west, north or south, psychologically, human beings have great anxiety, uncertainty, are always seeking security in some form or another, physiologically or psychologically. They are full of violence, right through the world. This is an extraordinary phenomenon when you watch it – violence, greed, envy, hatred and in our consciousness there is the good and the bad. We’II use those simple words to convey a great deal. So, that is our consciousness, in which there is religious beliefs, political adherence to a particular party and so on, so on, so on. All that is our consciousness, which is the consciousness of the whole of humanity. Right? I do not know if you see this or if you want to discuss it. Perhaps we will, on Tuesday, when we’re going to have discussions. 所以，我们从慈悲开始。 要理解这个词全部的，深层的意义， 一个人必须探究意识的活动， 我们的——也就是你的意识。 这意味着你就是世界，世界就是你。 这是显然的事实，一个人必须探究这一点，也就是： 不管你走到世界何地，东方或者西方，北方或者南方， 在心理上，人类都有焦虑，不确定感， 总是在在各种形式中寻找安全感， 不管是心理上的，还是物理上的。 全世界的人类都充满暴力。 你可以看到这惊人的事实 ——暴力，嫉妒，仇恨， 在我们的意识里有好的和坏的。 我们就用这些简单的词，来传达深刻的意义。 所以，在我们的意识中存在宗教的信仰， 政治上对某种政党的依赖， 等等。 这些都是我们意识的内容， 也就是全人类意识的内容。 是吗？ 我不知道你是否看到这些，你是否想讨论这些。 也许我们会在周二讨论， 我们在周二安排了讨论。
20:17 So, in investigating one’s consciousness, which is the global consciousness, not your consciousness, because you are the result of all the culture, the social structure, education, the religious assertions, two thousand or ten thousand years of propaganda, you are the result of all that. And, in investigating the good and the bad, we find the bad is increasing. Right? You understand the word ‘bad,’ we are using it very simply. The bad is increasing because the good has become static. The good is not flowering. It is accepting the patterns and living according to those patterns, or ideals and so on, therefore, instead of flowering, it is withering, therefore giving strength to the bad. I don’t know if you notice all this. There’s more violence, more hatred, national divisions, religious divisions, every form of antagonism, right through the world, racial, communism, and so on, so on. That is on the increase because the good is not flowering. Right? Now to be aware of this fact without any effort – please, the moment we make effort, we are giving importance to the self, which is the bad. Right? So, to observe the actual fact of the bad, without any effort, just to observe it without any choice – because choice is a distorting factor. So, to observe the world with all its violence, brutality, all that is going on, the political nastiness, all that, without any choice, but to observe it, freely. And when you observe it so openly, so freely, then the good begins to flower. Not that you pursue the good, and thereby give it strength to flower but when the bad, the evil, the ugly is understood completely, the other naturally flowers. I wonder if… Are we making some sense out of this? 所以，在探究我们的意识， 也就是全球的意识，而不是你个人的意识， 因为你就是文化本身， 是社会结构，教育，宗教的断言， 几千年或者万年的宣传 的结果。 在探究好和坏的事物的过程中， 我们发现坏的部分正在增加。 是吗？ 你理解”坏的“这个词，我们就用它最简单的意思。 坏的部分在增加因为好的部分变得固化了。 好的部分并没有盛放。 它只是接受了一种模式，然后照着那种模式生活， 或者一种观念，等等， 因此，它在枯萎而不是盛放， 因此强化了坏的部分。 我不知道你们注意到这一切了没。 有越来越多的暴力，仇恨，国家的分裂， 宗教的分裂，各种形式的暴力，弥漫在这个世界， 种族的，社群的暴力，等等等等。 坏的部分在增加，因为好的部分并没有盛放。 是吗？ 现在，不费力的觉察这个事实 ——请注意，当我们努力做某事时， 我们就在强化自身，也就是坏的部分。 对吗？ 所以，不费力地觉察坏的事实， 只是去没有选择地觉察它 ——因为选择就是扭曲的因素。 所以，观察这个世界所有的暴力，残忍， 所有正在发生的事情，政治的丑陋，等等， 没有任何选择的觉察，自由的觉察。 当你如此开放，自由的觉察时， 好的事物就开始盛放了。 不是你追求好的部分，因此让它盛放， 而是当坏的，邪恶的，丑陋的事物被彻底理解时， 那另外的事物就自然的盛放了。我想知道你们是否 我们讲清楚这一切了吗？
24:04 So, are we, each one of us who is at all serious, are we aware of this fact? That in us, in our consciousness, there is this duality and, therefore, conflict between the two. And the outcome of that conflict, the bad grows more and more. Bene? But when you observe, without any choice, observe without any prejudice, without any conclusion, and therefore without any effort, that which is ugly, evil, the bad declines and gives strength to the good. Is that clear? Are we doing it now, as we are talking? Or are we going to think over it, tomorrow? Because if you think over it tomorrow, you’re not paying attention to it, now. If you are not paying attention now you will not pay attention to it tomorrow. It is so obvious. That is, it is a tremendous thing, what we are talking about. You are in a crisis, the world is in a crisis, there must be different kinds of organisations, political and so on, but that can only come about rationally, sanely, when this is understood by every person in the world: that where there is conflict between that which is bad, evil and ugly and, when there is conflict, that very conflict gives strength to the ugly, to the evil, to the bad. In us, is that very clear? Because we are examining our consciousness, we are investigating the way you think, the way you act, the way you live, which is the very essence of our consciousness. Gosh, this rain! 所以，既然我们每一个人都是如此严肃， 我们觉察到这个事实了吗？ 也就是，我们的意识中存在二元性， 因此，在二者中存在冲突。 而冲突的结果，就是坏的部分变得越来越多。 对吗？ 但是当我们没有选择的觉察时， 没有偏见，结论地觉察， 因此没有任何努力， 这时丑陋的，邪恶的，坏的事物就会减少， 好的部分就会增加。我讲清楚了吗？ 当我们讨论的时候我们在这么做吗？ 或者我们要明天再考虑这一切？ 因为如果你要明天再考虑， 你现在就没有在关注。 如果你现在不关注， 你明天也不会关注。 这很显然。 我们在谈论一件十分关键的事情。 你正处于危机之中，这个世界正处于危机之中， 必须有不同形式的组织，政治，等等， 但是这只能通过合理的，理性的方法出现， 只有当这个世界的所有人都理解了这一点， 存在和坏的，邪恶的，丑陋的冲突， 当存在冲突时，这种冲突 会强化丑陋的，邪恶的，坏的事物。 我们明白这一点了吗？ 因为我们在探究我们的意识， 我们在探究我们的思考方式， 我们行动，生活的方式， 这也就是我们意识的本质。 天哪，这雨！
26:50 And also, in our consciousness we have developed, through a great deal of skill, the structure and the nature of the self. The self is violence, the self is the greed, envy and all the rest of it. That’s the very essence of the self. And, as long as there is that centre, as the ‘me,’ every action must be distorted. Obviously. Because you are acting from a centre, and giving action a direction. And, therefore, when there is direction in action, it is distortion. You may develop a great deal of skill in this way but it is always unbalanced, not balanced, not harmonious – whatever word you like to use. So, we are trying to find out in our exploration, whether consciousness, with its movement, can undergo a radical transformation, not brought about by will. Right? Because will is desire, desire for something and, therefore, when there is desire, a motive, it is a distorting factor in observation. Is this somewhat clear between us? Or are we making confusion more confused? 同样，在我们的意识中我们通过大量的技巧， 发展出了 自我的本质和结构。 自我是暴力的，贪婪的， 邪恶的，等等。这就是自我的本质。 只要存在中心也就是”我“， 所有行为都只会被扭曲。很显然。 因为，你从一个中心行动， 给予行动一个方向。 而这种行动中的方向性， 就是一种扭曲。 你也许通过这种方法发展出大量的技巧， 但是这永远是不平衡的，不和谐的 ——不管你想用什么词。 所以，我们尝试去探究清楚， 是否意识以及它的行动， 可以经历彻底的转变， 不是通过愿望。 对吗？ 因为，愿望就是欲望，渴望某事， 因此，当有欲望时，有动机时， 这就会成为觉察中的一个扭曲的因素。 我们能理解彼此吗？ 或者我们比之前更困惑了？
29:11 Look, sir, let’s make it very simple. What is one to do in this world, surrounded by so much violence, where there are so many conclusions about everything, where there are so many gurus with their latest, whatever it is, you’re surrounded by all this – propaganda, influence, reward or punishment – facing all this, what is one to do? Questioner: Run. 看，先生，让我们简单点表述。 面对这么多的暴力，一个人要做什么？ 存在如此多的关于各种事的结论， 各种最新的导师， 你被这一切所环绕——各种影响，宣传， 奖赏和惩罚—— 面对这一切，一个人要做什么？提问者：跑走。
29:53 K: Are you saying drown oneself? 克：你是说要淹死自己吗？
29:55 Q: Run.

K: Run. When you run away from something it pursues you. No, probably sir, we’II discuss it the day after tomorrow, no, on Tuesday, so, please, what is one to do? What are you going to do? You understand my question? You may escape, go to all these camps, or entertainments that are going on right through England, where thousands and thousands of people are walking in mud and singing and all the rest of it. That is a marvellous escape. But that doesn’t solve a thing. So, one asks, very seriously, if you are at all deeply concerned with the world, with what is happening with human beings, how they are destroying each other, what are you going to do? What’s your action? Follow some guru? Accept a new sense of direction? New ideology? All those are escapes from the fact. Right? From the fact that we human beings are extraordinarily brutal, violent, ugly, occasional flashes of affection, consideration, compassion – occasionally! In asking that question, and if you want a really true… an answer which is truthful, therefore, which is always true not just now truth and the next day it is false – one has to examine oneself very, very deeply. Right? One has to go into oneself tremendously to find out. And to investigate into oneself, you cannot follow anybody. Right? Obviously. If you followed somebody who will tell you how to investigate yourself, you are following what he is saying. You’re not examining yourself. Therefore, in examining yourself all authority of every kind must come to an end, psychologically. Are we capable of that? Are you really capable of putting aside all authority, psychologically – the authority of the priest, the authority of society, the authority of your own experience, the authority of your own knowledge or the knowledge of somebody else – can you put all that aside and begin to look at yourself? Will you? Which means you are brought to that position to look at yourself because it is a crisis. In a crisis, all energy is centred, and that energy demands that you look at yourself. Nobody is forcing you. Because you, yourself, see what is happening. You, yourself, are fully aware of the social, political economic conditions of this world, the deteriorating factors and so on, so on, so on. So, that very crisis makes you observe. And it doesn’t, if you’re serious, it doesn’t make you run away from it. On the contrary, you are totally committed. 		问：跑走。

克：跑走。 当你从某事逃离时，它就会一直追着你。 不，先生，也许我们会在后天讨论这个话题， 不，在周二。 所以，请问一个人要做什么？你打算做什么？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 你也许要逃避，逃到军营里， 或者那些正在英国各地上演的娱乐， 那里有成百上千的人在泥地里走来走去， 还会唱歌，等等。 这是一种巨大的逃避。 但是这没有解决任何问题。 所以，一个人，非常严肃的问， 如果你真的在意这个世界上 发生的事情，在意人类如何 伤害着彼此， 你要做什么？ 你的行动是什么？追随某位大师？ 接受一个新的方向？一个新的理念？ 这些都是从事实中逃避。对吗？ 从我们人类是极其 残忍，暴力，丑陋的这个事实中逃避， 偶尔闪现出一丝关爱， 体贴，同情——只是偶尔的！ 在问这个问题的过程中，如果你真的想要一个真实的 一个真实的答案，一个永远真实， 不是现在真实，明天又变的虚假的答案 ——一个人要非常，非常深入地探究自己。对吗？ 一个人要极大的深入自身，才能发现它。 而探究自身，你就不能追随任何人。 是吗？很显然的。 如果你追随某人， 某个告诉你如何去探究你自己的人， 你就是在追随他说的话， 你就不是在探究你自己。 因此，在探究自己的过程中，所有形式的权威 都要终结，心理领域的权威。 我们能做到吗？ 你真的能够放下 所有的权威，心理上的权威—— 神职人员的权威，社会的权威， 你自己经验的权威， 你自己的知识或者其他人的知识的权威 ——你可以放下这一切，然后开始看到你自己吗？ 你会吗？ 这意味着你必须要去看着你自己， 因为这是一个危机。 在危机中，所有的能量都被聚集起来， 而这能量要求你看着你自己。 没有人强迫你。因为你，你自己，看到发生了什么。 你，你自己，彻底地觉察到 这个世界上社会的，政治的，经济的制约， 那些破坏性的因素，等等。 所以，这个危机让你去觉察。 如果你够严肃，它不会让你 从它身边跑开。 正相反，你完全地投入。
34:35 And, in examining yourself, since there is no authority, you are looking at yourself, as you are. But in our consciousness, there is this duality – the good and the bad. So, we are always looking with the eyes of the good and also with the eyes of the bad, so there is a conflict. I don’t know if you follow? Now, we are trying to eliminate all conflict, altogether. That is only possible when you observe without any choice – just to observe yourself. Therefore, in that way, you eliminate the conflict between the good and the bad. You understand? Do it, please, as we are talking about it, if you’re serious, please do it, together. 在探究你自身的过程中，并没有权威， 你看着你自己，本来的样子。 但是，在我们的意识中存在二元性 ——好的和坏的。 所以，我们总是用”好的“角度去看问题， 或者”坏的“角度， 所以就存在冲突。我不知道你们跟上了吗？ 现在，我们尝试去消除所有冲突。 这只有当你没有选择的觉察时才有可能 ——只是觉察你自身。因此，在这种情况下， 你消除了好和坏之间的冲突。 你明白吗？ 请做一下，就像我们说的这样， 如果你是严肃的，请一起做一下。
35:47 So, we are observing ourselves without any sense of compulsion – not according to any psychologist, Freud, Jung and all the old generation or the new generation, but looking at ourselves without any choice. Right? Are we doing it? Which means, are you looking at yourself, recognising that there is violence in you, there is greed, envy, the desire for power, the desire for position, all these factors – can you look at them all without the least effort and without any choice? To be choicelessly aware is the essence of observation. Right? Can we proceed from there? 所以，我们没有任何强迫的感觉地觉察自身 ——不是根据任何心理学家，例如弗洛伊德或其他人， 不是旧的或者新的一代， 而是没有选择的看着自己。 对吗？你在这么做吗？ 这意味着，你看着你自己， 看到你之中的暴力， 贪婪，嫉妒，对权力的欲望， 对地位的欲望，等等因素—— 你能看着他们而没有任何努力， 没有任何选择吗？ 无选择的觉察是观察的本质。 对吗？ 我们能更进一步吗？
37:22 So, out of that choiceless observation comes clarity, obviously. Because there is no direction, there is no motive, nobody is forcing you to do this or that, nobody is offering you a reward and if you don’t do it nobody is going to punish you, you are free of all that nonsense. And, in that observation, there comes clarity. And, if that clarity is not related to compassion your action will be unskilful, because clarity comes with compassion. Clarity, by itself, has no meaning, any more than skill, by itself, has any meaning. So, compassion, clarity, skill is related to the art of listening, the art of seeing, and the art of learning. There is the art of listening, there is the art of seeing, there is the art of learning. And if you have not the art, which is to put everything in its right place, then you will not understand what is compassion – because we are going to learn about it. Learn that which is not compassionate. Right? Because only through negation you come to the positive, not the other way round. We start with certainties – we all do. I believe, I know, I think. Those are all certainties. And, when you begin with certainties, you end up in uncertainties. An old man who has given all his life, seventy years of his life with certainties, at the end he says, ‘I’m utterly confused, I don’t know where I am.’ Whereas, if we start with uncertainty, not knowing, hesitant, then we end up with clarity, with certainty. 所以，从无选择的觉察中 产生了清晰，很显然。 因为没有方向，就没有动机， 没有人强迫你去做这个或者做那个， 没有人给你奖励， 如果你不做，也没有人惩罚你， 你从所有这些毫无意义的事情中解脱了出来。 因此，在这样的觉察中就产生了清晰。 如果这种清晰和慈悲无关， 那你的行为依旧是毫无技巧性的， 因为清晰和慈悲一同到来。 清晰本身，并没有意义， 就像技巧本身，也没有意义。 所以，慈悲，清晰，技巧， 都和聆听的艺术有关， 看的艺术，学习的艺术。 聆听的艺术，看的艺术， 和学习的艺术。 如果你没有这些艺术， 也就是把所有事放到正确的位置， 那你就无法理解什么是慈悲， 因为我们正在学习这一点。 学习那些不是慈悲的事物。 对吗？ 因为只有通过否定，你才能到达积极的事物， 不能通过相反的方向。 我们从确定性开始——我们都是这样。 我相信，我知道，我认为，这些都是确定性。 当你从确定性开始， 你就会以不确定性结束。 就像一个老人把毕生精力， 七十多年的生命，都献给确定性， 到最后他说，”我完全迷失了。我不知道我在哪。“ 然而，如果我们以不确定性开始， 不知道，犹豫地， 那我们就能以清晰和确定性结束。
40:20 So, compassion is related naturally to love. That is, is there a love free of all the taint of civilisation, taint of jealousy, possessiveness, remembrance, the pursuit of pleasure? So, is there a love which is free from all this? Please sir, this is a very, very serious question, please. It’s your life, not my life, so you have to answer this question. Is there love in our heart, or wherever it is, in which there is not a shadow of corruption – not a remembrance which makes you think that you love? And is love the product of thought? And is there love which is whole, complete, not broken up ‘I love’ and ‘I hate,’ or I love, but in me I am possessive of something or other. You understand? So, if there is not that quality of love in us, compassion becomes impossible, because compassion is related to sorrow and that’s quite an enormous problem. So, we’II go into it later on, perhaps, as we have only four talks, we must make it all concise. 所以，慈悲自然和爱有关。 也就是，存在 超脱于所有文明的污染的， 嫉妒、占有欲、记忆污染的， 对快感的追求的爱吗？ 所以，存在超脱于所有这一切的爱吗？ 请注意先生，这是一个非常非常严肃的问题。 这是你的生命，不是我的生命， 所以你自己要去回答这个问题。 我们的心中，或者什么地方，有完全 没有腐败的阴影的爱吗？ 不是记忆，记忆会让你认为你在爱。 爱是思想的产物吗？ 完整的，彻底的爱，不是分裂成 ”我爱“和”我恨“的爱， 或者我爱，但是我也占有某事或某物。 你明白吗？ 所以，如果我们心中没有爱的品质， 慈悲就是不可能的， 因为慈悲和悲伤相关， 这真是巨大的问题。 所以，我们也许稍后会讨论， 鉴于我们只有四次演讲，我们要说的简洁一点。
42:58 So, we are concerned with the transformation of our consciousness, the movement of our consciousness. The movement is bound by thought, is propelled by thought, given energy to that movement by thought. But thought, as we said, is very limited because it is the response of the past, which is memory, therefore it’s of time. Is love of time? If I remember my sexual pleasure of yesterday, or ten years ago, and I say to the person, ‘I love you’ – is that love? Go on, sir, it’s your answer, you have to find this out. Unless you break through this circle, there will be no compassion. And when there is no compassion, you’II have no clarity. And you may develop skill, but that skill will always be self-centred, distorting, cruel. You understand? So, we are investigating, very seriously, into the whole movement of consciousness. 所以，我们关心我们意识的转化， 意识的活动。 这种活动被思想所束缚，所驱动， 思想赋予了它力量。 但是思想，就像我们说的，是局限的， 因为思想是过去，也就是记忆的反应， 因此源自时间。 爱是时间吗？ 如果我记住了我昨天的性的快感，或者十年之前的， 然后我对那个人说，”我爱你“——这是爱吗？ 继续先生，这是你的答案，你要自己去发现它。 除非你从这个循环中打破， 否则不会有慈悲。 没有慈悲，你就不会有清晰感。 你也许可以发展技巧， 但是那种技巧，永远是自我中心的，扭曲的，残忍的。 你明白吗？ 所以，我们在非常严肃的探索， 我们意识的整个活动。
44:56 Do you want to discuss any of this, now? 现在你们想讨论任何这些内容吗？
45:00 Q: Krishnaji? When we come to that point where we see that will is desire, we can also observe that. But in a crisis, there seems to be a natural movement to wish to solve it and the very attempt to solve it, it is a distorting factor so it seems. 问：克里希纳吉？ 当我们能看到意愿就是欲望时， 我们也能观察到你说的这些。 但是，在危机之中，似乎有一种天然的行动是 希望去解决它， 而解决问题的企图， 似乎是一个扭曲的因素。
45:28 K: Sir, you see, one of our problems in meditation – if you’ve gone into it, we’II go into it, again – is to be free of will, because will is based on desire – desire for enlightenment, desire for truth, desire for happiness... So, where there is desire, there must be will to fulfil that desire. And, in the understanding of desire, is there freedom from choice? Because desire chooses – I like this, I don’t like that, I want that, I don’t want that. So, we have to go into the question, again, of what is desire. Why do we have desires, so many desires? If we have a little, we want more. If we have more, we want something much better. We think by putting the parts together, we will understand the whole. That’s one of the objects of desire. By putting the parts, gathering them together, we think we’II have comprehended the whole and go beyond the parts, more. So, one has to go into this question of what is desire not the object of desire, because that varies from time to time, from childhood till death, the objects vary. When you’re a child you want something, when you grow up... so on, so on. So, one has to go to the very root of desire. Again, to observe desire without any choice – say ‘I must not,’ ‘I must’ – just to observe desire. What is desire? How does it come about? Go on, sirs. Doesn’t it come about, to put it very simply, through visual perception, first? Seeing something. Then contact. Right? Touching it, smelling it, tasting it. And from that, sensation. Then thought comes in and says ‘more’ or ‘less.’ So, the desire is perception, seeing, contact, sensation and desire with its image. Right? I’m not inventing this, make you to accept it or reject it, just look at it for yourself and you will see how desire comes into being. You see something beautiful and the sensation and the desire to possess it. The desire, because the image that is brought about through desire – having, possessing it and the enjoyment and so on. Or seeing something ugly and not wanting it, and resisting it, which is part of desire. Will to achieve, will to deny, which is born of desire. 克：先生，你看，我们冥想的一个问题就是 ——如果你讨论过这个问题，我们会再次讨论它—— 从意愿中解脱出来， 因为意愿是基于欲望的 ——开悟的欲望，对真理、幸福的欲望 所以，哪里有欲望，哪里就有满足欲望的意愿。 同时，在理解欲望的过程中存在从选择中解脱的自由吗？ 因为欲望会选择——我喜欢这个，我不喜欢那个， 我想要这个，我不想要那个。 所以，我们要再次探究这个问题，什么是欲望？ 我们为什么有欲望，如此多的欲望？ 如果我有一点，我想要更多。 如果我有很多，我想要更好的东西。 我们通过把部分整合起来来思考， 我们认为这样可以理解整体。 这就是欲望的对象之一。 通过把片段拼接起来， 我们认为我们理解了整体， 因此超越了片段，领悟了更多的东西。 所以，一个人要探究，欲望是什么，这个问题， 不是欲望的对象， 因为欲望的对象一直在随着时间变化， 从童年直到死去。 当你是一个孩子时，你想要某些东西， 当你长大时……还是如此。 所以，一个人要去探究欲望的根源。 同样的，没有选择的观察欲望 ——不说，“我必须不”或者“我必须”，只是观察欲望。 欲望是什么？欲望如何产生的？ 继续，先生。 是这样吗？让我们说的简单点， 首先是通过视觉的观察，看到某物，是吗？ 然后是接触，对吗？ 触摸它，闻一下它，再尝一下。 从这些感官中， 思想就介入了，说“多一点”或者“少一点”。 所以，欲望就是，观察，看， 接触，感官，以及带着意象的欲望。 对吗？ 我不是在发明什么东西，或者让你接受或者拒绝我的看法， 只是靠你自己看一下，你就会看到， 欲望是如何产生的。 你看到一件美丽的事物， 你感受到它，然后欲望就想拥有它。 欲望，就是由 欲望产生的意象 ——拥有它，占有它，享受它等等。 或者看到某件丑陋的事，所以不想要它， 抵抗它，这都是欲望的一部分。 成就的意愿，否定的意愿，都源自于欲望。
50:04 Now, is there an action, in daily life, please, listen to this, find out, is there an action in daily life in which desire doesn’t operate? It’s really… It is very exciting to find out, for oneself if there is such an action at all, because we are accustomed, we are trained, it is our condition to act upon desire. The politicians, the rest of it, the whole world is based on that. We are asking a question quite the contrary and therefore it’s difficult to penetrate into that. Unless you are free of the other you cannot go into this question. That is, to find out an action which must be skilful, and yoga is part of… skill in action is yoga, not just only doing exercise and so on, skill in action is part of yoga. And, to find that out, one has to see the whole movement of desire – how it arises, how it demands fulfilment, and then there is frustration when there is not fulfilment, there is anger, bitterness, all the things that follow when there is frustration. And, when there is fulfilment of that desire, the opposite to that. 现在，在日常生活中是否存在这样一种行动， 请注意，认真听，找到它， 存在一种不是由欲望驱动的行动吗？ 这真的是……对于一个人来说，发现这种行为非常令人兴奋， 是否存在这样的行为， 因为我们习惯了，我们受过训练， 这就是我们的制约——基于欲望行动。 政治家，等等，整个世界，都是基于欲望。 我们询问了一个正相反的问题， 因此很难深入进去。 除非从其他那些事物中 解放出来，你不可能进入这个问题。 也就是，找到一种充满技巧性的行动， 瑜伽就是其中的一部分……富有技巧的行动就是瑜伽， 而不只是做运动，以及等等的事， 行动中的技巧就是瑜伽的一部分。 因此，去发现， 一个人需要看到欲望的整个活动 ——它如何升起，如何要求满足， 然后当没有被满足时，就存在挫败感， 然后就有愤怒，痛苦， 当有挫败感时，就会有这些感情。 而当欲望被满足时， 则正相反。
51:55 So, is there an action without motive, which is desire, without a goal, without an end in view? Because if you have a goal, an end in view, you have already limited your action according to the motive and the end. Action is only the means, there is no other. Right? I wonder if you understand? That is, there is a means of action, right action, when there is no direction. Direction is from the ‘me,’ my demands, my desires, my importance, my security, that gives a distorting factor in action. But when there is no centre as the ‘me,’ then there is action without desire. You have to go into this very much otherwise it becomes merely verbal and meaningless. 所以，存在一种没有动机，也就是欲望的行动吗， 没有目标，也没有某个终点的想法？ 因为，如果你有目标，有一个终点的想法， 你就已经根据动机或者那个终点的概念 限制了自己的行动。 行动就是唯一的意义，没有其他。 对吗？ 也就是，当不存在方向时，存在一种行动的 方式，是正确的行动。 方向就来自“我”，我的需要，我的欲望， 我的重要性，我的安全感， 这造成了行动中的扭曲的因素。 但是当不存在“我”这个中心时， 就会有没有欲望的行动。 你必须深入探究这个问题， 否则它就只是词语的表达，因此毫无意义。
53:33 Q: Sir, is there an experiencer, as such? 问：先生，存在一个经验者吗？
53:40 K: Is there an experiencer, as such? What is the experiencer? Who is the experiencer? Answer it, sirs. Is there an experiencer without experience? Is there a collection of experiences which becomes knowledge, identified with the ‘me’? You understand? The ‘me’ is the centre of experience. I have experienced happiness. I have experienced sex, I have experienced hurt, I have experienced a dozen things. All these accumulated experiences bring about the experiencer which is ‘me,’ separate from the experience. Right? The ‘me’ is going to experience something. So, we are asking, is the experiencer different from the experience, or both are the same? That is, the experiencer, with all the memories of accumulated past, with all its knowledge, is going to experience something different. Is that thing that is different really different? Or, when I recognise it as an experience, is it part of me already? I wonder if you see this? You understand, sir? I experience something, in that is involved a remembrance of the past, recognition of that experience, according to the past. Otherwise, it’s not experience. If I don’t recognise it as an experience, it is not an experience. Right? To recognise it, it must come out of the past, therefore what I am experiencing is already experienced – if I recognise it. 克：存在一个经验者吗？ 什么是经验者？ 谁是经验者？先生，请回答一下。 没有经验时存在经验者吗？ 经验的集合，变成了知识， 然后和“我”相互认同，你明白吗？ “我”就是经验的中心。 我拥有快乐的经验， 性的经验，受伤的经验， 我经历了一堆事情。 所有这些积累起来的经验，产生了经验者， 也就是“我”，和经验相分离。 对吗？ “我”要去经验某事。 所以，我们问 经验者和经验有何不同， 或者二者是相同的？ 也就是，经验者，带着积累起来的过去的经验， 带着所有的知识， 想去经验一些不同的东西。 这些所谓不同的东西，真的是不同的吗？ 或者，当我作为一种经验认出它来的时候， 它就已经是我的一部分了？我不知道你们是否看到了这些？ 你明白吗？先生 我经历了某事， 这包含了过去的某个记忆， 基于过去，我把它认为是一种经验。 否则，它就不是经验。 如果我不把它认作一种经验， 它就不是一种经验，对吗？ 识别，本身就来自于过去， 因此我所经验的事物，其实我早已经经验过了 ——如果我认出它来的话。
56:35 Now, it’s only a mind that has no centre and therefore very clear, it is only such a mind that has no experience. Please, this is… Therefore, the observer is the observed. Right? When a man says, ‘I’ve had a new experience,’ it is not new at all because he has recognised it and he’s called it ‘new,’ and given it a verbal significance. But it’s born out of the past and, therefore, it’s not new at all. So, why should we have experiences at all? Is it that most of us are asleep, therefore somebody comes along and shakes you, and you call that ‘experience’? If you’re totally awake, completely awake, there is no need for experience. I wonder if you... What, sir? 只有一个没有中心的，因此非常清晰的意识， 只有这样的意识中，才不存在经验。 请注意，这 因此，观察者就是被观察之物，是吗？ 当一个人说，“我有了一个新经验。” 它根本就不是新的，因为你已经认出了它， 你已经称它为“新的”，并且赋予了它一种词语上的重要性。 但是，它本身是诞生于过去的，因此，他根本不是新的。 所以，我们为什么还要有经验？ 我们中的大多数人都在沉睡， 因此某个人走过来然后摇醒了你， 你就会称之为“经验”？ 如果你是彻底觉醒的，完全的觉醒， 你就不需要经验。 我想知道你们是否 什么？先生
58:02 Q: How does one recognise a new kind of love which one is not used to? One is used to the love which is with jealousy… 问：一个人要如何识别出一种新的爱， 而一个人已经习惯了另一种爱？ 一个人已经习惯了带着嫉妒的爱
58:10 K: How do you recognise, the gentleman asks, how do you recognise the new kind of love? 克：这个绅士问，你如何识别， 你如何识别一种新的爱？
58:20 Q: I mean, we are used to the love which is with jealousy and possessiveness and... 问：我的意思是，我们都习惯于带着嫉妒的爱， 带着占有欲等等
58:26 K: We said, sir, you can’t recognise it. Then, if you recognise it, it’s not new. We said, very clearly, that through negation of what it is not, it is. Through negation, of what it is not. Love is not remembrance. Right? Love is not jealousy. Love is not violence. When you deny all that, the other is, you don’t even have to say, ‘I have it’ or ‘I have not it.’ You don’t experience it. You experience the negations but the positive you can never experience – it is. 克：先生，我们说你不可能识别出它来。 如果你识别出来，它就不是新的。 我们说的很清楚了，通过否定不是的东西，那个东西就会出现。 通过否定不是那个东西的事物。 爱不是记忆，对吗？ 爱不是嫉妒。爱不是暴力。 当你否定这一切，那个事物就出现了， 你甚至不需要说，“我拥有它”或者“我没有它”。 你不用去经历它。你经历否定（的过程）， 而不是积极（的过程），你不能去经历它——它存在。
59:27 So, sirs, we’II go on with this, tomorrow. But we have to be serious in our investigation, about ourselves. It doesn’t mean that you become selfish in investigating. On the contrary. In investigation, you find you are like the world, like all the rest of humanity. And you are the essence of all that humanity, obviously. Because you suffer, you are in anxiety, a sense of loneliness, despair, unhappy, just like the man in India, just like the man in Russia, or China or America. So, you are the essence of humanity, psychologically. Though you may have fair skin, or dark skin, or black skin, or whatever, that’s all superficial. But, when you penetrate into yourself, you will find you are like the rest of the world. So, you are the world. And that’s a profound fact which affects all your thinking, all your observation, if you realise that you are the essence of humanity. Then you are no longer concerned with yourself, with your petty little worries and idiosyncrasies, you are like everybody – you understand? – it gives you an extraordinary strength. 所以，先生，明天我们会继续讨论这些。 但是在我们探究自身的过程中， 我们必须非常严肃。 这不意味着你会在探究中变得自私。 正相反。 在探究中，你会发现你就像这个世界， 像所有其他的人类。 显然，本质上，你就是所有的人类。 因此你受苦，你焦虑， 你有孤独，绝望，不快乐的感觉， 就像印度的，俄罗斯的， 中国的或者美洲的人一样。 所以，在心理上，你就是人类的本质。 虽然你可能会有浅色的皮肤或者深色的皮肤， 或者黑色的皮肤，等等，这都是表面的事情。 但是，当你深入探究你自己时， 你会发现你就像这世界其他人。 所以，你就是世界。 这是一个会影响你所有思想， 所有观察的深刻的事实， 如果你认识到你就是人类的本质。 你就不再关心你自己， 你的小小的担忧和个人特性， 你就像所有人——你明白吗？ 这给你一种巨大的力量。
1:01:09 Q: I have a submission, sir, if you don’t mind, sir. One small question, sir. Is psychological time different from chronological time? 问：先生，如果你不介意的话， 我有一个小问题。 心理的时间和物理的时间是不同的吗？
1:01:22 K: Oh, that’s fairly simple, isn’t it? 克：哦，这很简单，不是吗？
1:01:24 Q: Thank you very much, sir. 问：十分感谢，先生。
1:01:26 K: You don’t have to thank me, sir. It is fairly simple, isn’t it? When I have hope, I am hoping I will be all right, both mentally, psychologically, in every way, that is psychological time. The other is chronological time. I must catch a bus at a certain time, otherwise, I’II miss my rendezvous. That’s all. So, we’II continue, if we may, tomorrow. Is that all right? May I leave? 克：先生，你不必感谢我，这很简单，不是吗？ 当我有某个希望时，我希望我会变好， 包括精神上和心理上，在所有方面， 这就是心理时间。 其他的就是物理时间。 我必须在某一刻赶上一辆公交车， 否则，我就会错过集会，就是这样。 所以，我们也许会在明天继续讨论。 好吗？我可以离开了吗？