Krishnamurti Subtitles
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BR7879CBS1 - 你不是在讲佛陀讲的东西吗？
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| 0:15 Giddu Narayan: I will just say one or two things by way of introduction. Dr Schloegl there, is a well-known scholar in Zen Buddhism. She lived in Japan for twelve years and she teaches Zen Buddhism in London. She was also the librarian of the Buddhist Society till very recently and many people know her because many people have been her students. We have been wanting to arrange this dialogue with Krishnaji since last year but it has not been possible. 1:05 Dr Rahula is from Ceylon, Sri Lanka, and he is a very great Buddhist scholar both in the Theravada and the Mahayana. He lectures in Ceylon, in Oxford, he goes to the USA, Japan, and he is quite well-known, and has written quite a few books. And I am very glad it is possible that we have this dialogue today with Krishnaji. | 0:15 吉度·纳拉扬： 我只说一两件事， 简单介绍一下。 那位是著名禅宗学者， 施洛格博士。 她在日本生活了十二年， 并在伦敦讲授禅宗。 直到最近， 她还是佛教协会的 图书管理员， 很多人都认识她，因为 很多人都是她的学生。 我们去年就 想安排这场与克里希那吉 的对话， 但一直未能如愿。 1:05 拉胡拉博士 来自斯里兰卡锡兰， 他是一位杰出的 上座部和大乘佛教学者。 他在锡兰、牛津讲学， 有时也去美国、日本， 他很有名，写了很多书。 我很高兴 大家今天有机会 与克里希那吉对话。 |
| 1:45 Krishnamurti: Probably you all know Dr Bohm and myself so we don’t need introduction. | 1:45 克里希那穆提：也许大家都认识 博姆博士和我自己了， 就不必介绍我们了。 |
| 1:56 Dr Walpola Rahula: Yes, sir, we know you so well and I have been following your teaching, if you allow me to use that word – I know that you don’t like that word... | 1:56 沃尔波拉· 拉胡拉博士：是的， 先生，我们非常了解您， 我一直遵循着您的教诲， 请容许我这么说—— 我知道 您不喜欢这个说法 |
| 2:08 K: It’s all right, sir. | 2:08 克：没关系，先生 。 |
| 2:12 WR:...from my young days. I have read most of your books with great interest, deep interest, and I have wanted to have this discussion with you for a long time, and I am very happy, very pleased that we have got this opportunity today, thanks to Mr. Narayan for arranging all this. I must say that, as I have followed your teachings, your books, for many years, I must say that for a person who knows Buddha’s teachings sufficiently well, your teaching is quite familiar, and for a person like that it is not a new thing, it is quite familiar. 3:09 And what the Buddha taught 2,500 years ago you teach today in a new idiom, a new style, and you put his teaching into a new garb. And that is what I feel always when I read your books – and I have written very often, I haven’t got the books here, practically most of your books are with me – and when I read your books very often I write in the margin comparing such and such a teaching with the Buddha, sometimes I even quote the verse, or the chapter and verse, or the text. 3:55 Not only Buddha’s teaching, the original ancient teaching, but even later Buddhist philosophers’ ideas – I will discuss with you later – even those things you say practically exactly the same. I was surprised how you got these things so well and so beautifully. And to begin with, I want to mention very briefly a few points which are common between Buddha’s teaching and your teaching. And, for instance, Buddha did not accept god who created the world and who rules this world and rewards and punishes people for their actions. 4:46 You also don’t accept that idea, I believe. Then Buddha did not accept the old Vedic, Brahmanic idea of eternal, permanent, everlasting, unchanging, soul, Atman – Buddha denied it. And you also, I think, don’t accept that soul, that type of soul. Then Buddha begins his teaching on the ground that human life is in predicament: suffering, conflict, sorrow. And I see in your books you always emphasise that. And then Buddha says that the cause of this conflict, suffering, all that is due to the selfishness which is created by the wrong idea of self – myself, my Atman. 5:46 And I think you say the same thing. And then Buddha says when one is free from that desire, attachment, self, he is free from suffering, he is free from conflict. And in fact, you said somewhere, I remember: freedom means freedom from all attachment – you said somewhere. And that is exactly what the Buddha taught, that all attachment – there is no discrimination there, there is no good attachment and bad attachment – of course relatively there is in our ordinary practical life, but ultimately there is no such division. 6:35 Then seeing truth, realisation of truth, that is to see things as they are, as the Buddha says, in the Buddhist terminology Yatha Bhutam, that means as things are... | 2:12 拉：我从小……。 我读过您的大部分作品， 并产生了强烈的兴趣。 我很早就想和您这样面对面讨论， 我感到非常荣幸， 今天终于有了这个机会， 感谢纳拉扬先生的细心安排。 我必须说， 由于我多年来一直遵循 您的教诲、您的书籍， 我必须说， 一个人如果对佛经熟稔于心， 他也会非常熟悉您的教诲， 对这样的人而言， 您的教诲并不是新的， 而是非常熟悉的东西。 3:09 您今天以新的语言、 新的风格 讲述佛陀2500 年前的教诲， 把他的教诲 罩上了新的外衣。 我读您的书时总有这种感觉 ——我经常做批注， 书我没带来， 实际上您的书 我大部分都留着—— 我读您的书时 经常做批注， 一条一条地对比 您和佛陀的说法， 有时甚至会引用偈子、 章节、偈子或经文。 3:55 我不仅对比佛陀的教诲， 还参考了原始的教诲， 甚至还包括后来佛教学者的思想 ——这个我稍后再和您讨论—— 连那些东西您 也几乎讲得一模一样。 我纳闷您是怎么把这些东西 讲得这么精辟、这么完美的。 首先，我想简单提几个 佛经和您的教诲的共同点。 例如，佛陀不接受神的观念： 神创造世界、统治这个世界， 因为人做了什么 就奖励、惩罚他们。 4:46 我认为您也不接受这个观念。 佛陀也不接受这个古老的 吠陀、婆罗门教观念： 灵魂、阿特曼永恒不变 ——佛陀否认这个。 我认为您也不接受那种灵魂， 不接受那种形式的灵魂。 还有，佛陀开始讲诉他的教诲时， 着眼于人类的艰难处境： 痛苦、冲突、悲伤。 我看到您也总在书中 强调这一点。 佛陀又说， 这种冲突、痛苦 都是自私造成的， 自私又是由错误的自我观念—— 我自己、我的阿特曼——造成的。 5:46 我认为您讲了同样的事情。 佛陀还说， 人摆脱了欲望、执着、自我， 就摆脱了痛苦， 摆脱了冲突。 其实我记得 您在什么地方说过： 自由意味着 摆脱一切执着—— 您在什么地方说过。 而这正是佛陀的教导， 所有执着—— 这个地方不存在区分， 执着没有好坏之分， ——当然，我们在平常生活中 有相对的好坏， 但在最终是不存在这种划分的。 6:35 还有，看到真理， 领悟真理， 就是看到事物的本来面目， 正如佛陀讲的， 佛教术语，Yatha Bhutam， 指的是事物本来的样子…… |
| 6:54 K: Bhutam, yes sir. | 6:54 克：Bhutam，是的，先生。 |
| 6:56 WR: When you see that, you see the reality, you see the truth and you are free from that conflict. I think this is what very often you say in a discussion, I think, between you and Dr Bohm, I think, ‘Truth and Actuality’, in that discussion you have discussed this question. When I read that recently I thought this is quite well-known in Buddhist thought as samvriti satya and paramarthasatya. Samvriti satya is the conventional truth and paramarthasatya is the absolute or ultimate truth. And so you can’t see the ultimate truth, or the absolute truth, without seeing the relative or conventional truth. That is the Buddhist attitude also. I think you say the same thing. | 6:56 拉：看到了这个，就看到了 现实，看到了真相， 就摆脱了那种冲突。 我想这就是您经常 在讨论中讲的， 我想是您和博姆博士那次， 我想是《真相与现实》， 那次讨论， 您谈了这个问题。 我最近读的时候， 我认为这就是佛教思想中 广为人知的 samvriti satya 和 paramarthasatya。 Samvriti satya 是 世俗真理， 而 paramarthasatya 是 绝对真理或终极真理。 因此，看不到相对真理、世俗真理， 就无法看到 终极真理、绝对真理。 这也是佛教的看法。 我认为和您说的是一回事。 |
| 8:04 K: Yes, sir. | 8:04 克：是的，先生。 |
| 8:06 WR: Then one of your – of course this is more on the popular level, but it is very important – you always say that you must not depend on authority, anybody’s authority, anybody’s teaching. You must realise it yourself, you must see it for yourself. This is a teaching very well-known in Buddhism and Buddha told the Kalamas don’t accept anything just because it is given by religion or scriptures, or by a teacher, or by a guru, only if you see for yourself that it is right, then accept it; if you see it is wrong or bad, then reject it. I remember a very interesting discussion you had with Swami Venkatesananda. | 8:06 拉：那么您的一个—— 当然这更主要的是 面向大众说的， 但也非常重要—— 您总讲不要依赖权威， 不要依赖 任何人的权威、教诲。 你必须亲自认识真相， 你必须亲自看到真相。 这是佛陀的 一句非常著名的开示， 佛陀告诉卡拉玛人， 不要轻信任何事情， 不要仅仅因为那是宗教、经文、 师傅或者古鲁讲的就相信了。 只有你亲眼看到，确定那是正确的， 那时你再接受； 如果你发现那是 错误的或不好的，就拒绝它。 我记得您与 斯瓦米·文卡特萨南达 有过一次非常有趣的讨论。 |
| 8:58 K: Yes, sir. | 8:58 克：是的，先生。 |
| 9:00 WR: And his point was very much that the whole idea of guru, the importance of guru, but you always said what can he do, it is your job, your business to do it, a guru can’t save you. This is exactly the Buddhist attitude that you should not accept authority, and after reading I listened to that also. A friend of mine played that tape, later on I read the whole thing in your book ‘The Awakening of Intelligence’. After reading, at the end, I wrote as from the text: Buddha has said these things too, all this discussion is summarised by the Buddha in two lines in the Dhammapada: you should make the effort, the Buddhas only teach. | 9:00 拉：他非常强调 整个古鲁的概念， 强调古鲁的重要性， 但您总是说 他能做什么，那是你的工作， 那是你的事，古鲁拯救不了你。 这正是佛教的看法， 不要接受权威， 我读后也听了一遍 那次谈话录音。 我的朋友给我播放了那盘磁带， 后来我读了完整记录， 是在您的《智慧的觉醒》 这本书里。 读后，我在末尾 根据经文写道： 佛陀也曾说过这些东西， 所有这些讨论，佛陀 在《法句经》中概括为两句话： 汝应自努力，如来唯导师。 |
| 10:02 K: Quite. | 10:02 克：确实如此。 |
| 10:03 WR: This is in the Dhammapada, you have read long, long ago when you were young because I found it in Mary Lutyens’ book, you quoted it somewhere, not this line but another. Then another very important thing many people don’t understand when you say – I must say this openly, let them know it, if they don’t understand it – your emphasis on awareness, mindfulness. This is a thing in Buddha’s teaching which is very important, extremely important, this is given in the Sattipathana sutta, to be aware, to be mindful. 10:48 I myself was surprised when I read in the Maha-parinibbana-Sutta that is the discourse, sutta, about the last months of his life. At every point wherever he stopped and talked to his disciples he said always be aware of things, cultivate awareness, mindfulness. It is called Sattipathana that means really presence of awareness, the presence of mindfulness. This also is one of your very strong points in your teaching which I appreciate very much and follow. Then another interesting thing – your emphasis always on impermanence, suffering, impermanence. 11:35 This is one of the fundamental things in Buddha’s teaching – everything is impermanent, there is nothing permanent. And in one place you say exactly – I think it is in the book ‘Freedom from the Known’ – to discover nothing is permanent is of tremendous importance for only then is the mind free. That is exactly in the four noble truths of the Buddha, that when you see that. Then another very interesting small point I want to mention: how your teaching and the Buddha’s teaching go together without any conflict. 12:21 I think in one place, in ‘Freedom from the Known’ in that book, you say: control and outward discipline are not the way, nor has an undisciplined life any value. When I read this I wrote there also on the margin, Buddha told a Brahmin: a Brahmin asked the Buddha, ‘How did you attain to these heights of spiritual and intellectual height, by what precepts, by what discipline, by what knowledge did you attain?’ Buddha said, ‘Not by knowledge, not by discipline, not by precepts, not by words, nor without them’. 13:15 That is the important thing – he said not by these things, but not without them also. Exactly what you say: you condemn this slavery to discipline, but without discipline life has no value. That is exactly in Zen, which is Buddhism, after all. There is nothing called Zen Buddhism, Zen is Buddhism. In Zen, discipline is attachment, and slavery to that is very much condemned, but there is no Buddhist sect in the world I think where discipline is so much emphasised. I think Dr Schloegl will talk about this later. 14:00 Therefore all these things – we have many other things to talk about but to begin with I want to say that these things, these fundamental things are quite in agreement, and there is no conflict between you and the Buddha. Of course you are not a Buddhist, as you say. | 10:03 拉：这是《法句经》里的， 您在很久很久以前， 在年轻时就读过， 我是在玛丽·勒琴斯的 书中发现的， 您在什么地方引用过这句， 不是这句，是另一句。 还有一件事非常重要， 很多人不明白您说的 ——我必须坦率地讲， 要让他们明白， 如果他们不明白的话—— 您强调觉察、正念。 这是佛陀教诲中 非常重要、 极其重要的一个方面， 《Sattipathana sutta》中指出， 要保持觉察、正念。 10:48 我读《摩诃般涅槃经》时， 佛陀在他生命 最后几个月的开示， 令我自己非常惊讶。 他每次停下来 与弟子交谈， 都说要保持觉察， 培养觉察和正念。 这叫做Sattipathana， 指的是真正在觉察、 有正念在。 这也是您教诲中的一大亮点， 对此我非常欣赏，也乐于遵循。 另一个有趣的地方—— 您总是强调无常、 苦、无常。 11:35 这是佛陀教诲的一个基本原则 ——一切都是无常的， 没有什么是永恒的。 您在一个地方恰好也讲了 ——我想是在 《从已知中解脱》这本书中—— 认识到一切都不是永恒的， 至关重要， 唯有如此，心灵才能自由。 您看到的这点 恰恰就在佛陀的 苦、集、灭、道四圣谛中了。 还有一个有意思的小问题， 我想提一下： 您是如何使您的教诲 和佛陀的教诲 毫无冲突、并行不悖的。 12:21 我认为在 《从已知中解脱》 那本书中您说： 控制和外在的戒律 不是出路， 没有规矩的生活也毫无价值。 我读到这时， 也在空白处写道， 佛陀告诉一个婆罗门： 一个婆罗门问佛陀：“您是 如何达到这样的 精神高度和智力高度的？ 您是依照什么戒规、 什么戒律、 什么知识达到的？ ” 佛陀说：“不靠知识， 不靠戒律， 不靠律条，不靠言辞， 也不是完全没有这些”。 13:15 这是重要的问题—— 他说不靠这些东西， 但也不是没有这些东西。 这和您说的完全一样， 您谴责做戒律的奴隶， 但没有纪律， 生命就没有价值。 这正是禅宗里…… 其实，禅宗就是佛教。 没有禅宗佛教这回事， 禅宗就是佛教。 禅宗认为，戒律就是执着， 并强烈谴责为这种 为执着役使的做法， 但我认为世界上 没有一个佛教派别 如此强调戒律的作用。 我想施洛格博士 稍后会谈到这个问题。 14:00 那么，所有这些—— 我们还有很多其他问题要谈， 但首先我想说 这些问题， 这些基本问题非常一致， 您和佛陀没有冲突。 当然，您说过， 您不是佛教徒。 |
| 14:21 K: No, sir. | 14:21 克：不是，先生。 |
| 14:22 WR: No. And I myself don’t know what I am. It does not matter. But in your teaching and the Buddha’s teaching there is hardly any conflict, only you say the same thing in a fascinating way for the man today, for tomorrow’s man. And now I would like to know what you think about all this. | 14:22 拉：不是。而我自己也不知道 我是什么。这无关紧要。 但您的教诲 和佛陀的教诲 几乎没有任何冲突， 只是您 以一种迷人的方式 为今人和后人 讲了同样的东西。 现在我想知道 您对这些有何看法。 |
| 14:50 K: May I say, sir, with due respect, why you compare. | 14:50 克：先生，请恕我直言， 您为什么要比较。 |
| 14:59 WR: No, this is because when I read your books as a Buddhist scholar, as one who has studied Buddhist texts, I always see it is the same thing. | 14:59 拉：不，这是因为 我读您的书时， 身为佛教学者， 研究佛经的人， 我总是看到你们讲的是一回事。 |
| 15:15 K: Yes, sir, but if I may ask, what is the necessity of comparing? | 15:15 克：是的，先生， 但是容我问一下， 比较有什么必要吗？ |
| 15:25 WR: There is no necessity at all. | 15:25 拉：完全没有。 |
| 15:28 K: If you hadn’t, if you are not a scholar of Buddhism, and all the Sutras, and the sayings of the Buddha, if you were just not scholarly, and not gone very deeply into Buddhism, how would it strike you reading this, without the background of all that? | 15:28 克：如果您不曾， 如果您不是研究佛经，研究 佛陀言论的学者， 如果您不是学者， 没有深入钻研佛教， 没有这些背景， 您读这些会有什么感触？ |
| 15:56 WR: That I can’t tell you because I was never without that background. It is a condition conditioned, it is a condition. We are all conditioned. | 15:56 拉：我无法告诉您， 因为我从未脱离这个背景。 这是一个业已形成的条件， 这是一个条件。 我们都受到了环境的塑造。 |
| 16:07 K: That’s right, sir. | 16:07 克： 是的，先生。 |
| 16:09 WR: Therefore I cannot answer that question because I don’t know what would be the position. | 16:09 拉：因此我无法回答 这个问题， 我不知道 我会是什么立场。 |
| 16:17 K: So, if I may point out – I hope you don’t mind. | 16:17 克：那么，容我指出—— 我希望您不介意。 |
| 16:27 WR: No, not at all. | 16:27 拉：一点儿也不会的。 |
| 16:32 K: Does knowledge condition human beings – knowledge of scriptures, knowledge of what the saints have said and so on and so on, the whole gamut of so-called sacred books, does that help man at all? | 16:32 克：知识是否会塑造人类 ——经典里的知识、 圣人说了什么，等等， 所有所谓的圣书， 这些对人有帮助吗？ |
| 16:58 WR: It certainly – scriptures and all our knowledge – conditions man, there is no doubt about it. It conditions. It is conditioning. But I should say that knowledge is not absolutely unnecessary. It is just like this: Buddha has pointed out this very clearly – you want to cross the river and there is no bridge, but you make a boat for yourself and you cross with the help of the boat. Going to the other shore, if you think, this boat has been very useful to me, very helpful to me, I can’t leave it here, I will carry it and you put it on your shoulder. 18:03 And he asks the Bhikkhus, ‘Is that man acting rightly?’ They said, ‘No’. Then what you should do is to say, ‘Of course this boat was very helpful to me but I have crossed the river. Now it is not useful to me anymore and I’ll leave it here for somebody else to use’. That is the attitude for knowledge and learning. Buddha says, even the teachings, not only that, even the virtues, so-called virtues, moral virtues are also like the boat, and they have a relative value and conditioned value. | 16:58 拉：经典和我们的知识， 无疑都会塑造人， 这毫无疑问。 会塑造人。这就是塑造。 但我要说，知识 并非完全没有必要。 是这样的： 佛陀曾经非常清楚地指出——， 要想过河，而没有桥， 你可以自己造一条船， 乘船过河。 到了彼岸后， 如果你觉得这条船 对我很有用， 有过很大帮助， 我不能把它留下， 我要背着它， 于是你把船扛起来。 18:03 他问众比丘： “那个人做的对吗？” 他们说：“不对”。 然后您应该做的就是说： “当然这艘船 对我有过很大帮助， 但我既然过了河， 现在它对我就没用了， 我要把它留给别人用。 ” 这就是对于 知识、学习的态度。 佛说，就连教诲， 不仅是教诲，就连德行， 所谓的德行、道德， 也像船一样， 只有相对的价值、 有条件的价值。 |
| 18:44 K: I would like to question. I am not doubting what you are saying, sir. But I would like to question whether knowledge in its actual sense has the liberating quality of the mind. | 18:44 克：我想质疑一下。 我并不怀疑您说的，先生。 但我想质疑， 真正意义上的知识是否 具有解放心灵的性质。 |
| 19:10 WR: I don’t think knowledge can liberate. | 19:10 拉：我认为 知识无法解放心灵。 |
| 19:13 K: Has the quality, sir? Knowledge can’t, but the quality that you derive from knowledge: the strength, the sense of capacity, the sense of value, the feeling that you know, the weight of knowledge, doesn’t that strengthen the self? | 19:13 克：先生，具有这种性质吗？ 知识不能，但你从知识中 获得的比如： 那种有力量、有能力、 有价值的感觉、 那种我知道的感觉， 还有知识的重要性， 这些难道不会增强自我吗？ |
| 19:49 WR: Certainly, certainly. | 19:49 拉：当然会，当然。 |
| 20:02 K: So does knowledge actually condition man? Let’s put it that way. | 20:02 克：那么知识 其实是在塑造人吗？ 我们这么说吧。 |
| 20:06 WR: Knowledge? Yes, certainly, that is so. | 20:06 拉：知识？ 是的，当然是这样。 |
| 20:11 K: So, the word ‘knowledge’, we mean surely both of us, and all of us surely mean the accumulation of information, accumulation of experience, of various facts and theories and principles, the past and the present, all that bundle we call knowledge. Does then the past help, because knowledge is the past? | 20:11 克：所以，“知识”这个词， 我们俩肯定指的是， 我们所有人肯定指的是 信息的积累， 经验、各种事实、理论、 原理、过去 和现在的积累， 我们管这个集合 叫做知识。 还有，因为知识是过去， 过去对我们有帮助吗？ |
| 20:49 WR: All that past, all that knowledge disappears the moment you see the truth. | 20:49 拉：在看到真相的那一刻， 所有过去、 所有知识就都消失了。 |
| 21:03 K: No, can a mind that is burdened with knowledge see truth? | 21:03 克：不，为知识所累的心灵， 能看到真相吗？ |
| 21:11 WR: Of course if the mind is burdened and crowded and covered with knowledge... | 21:11 拉：当然不能，如果心灵 塞满知识，为知识所累， 受知识蒙蔽的话 |
| 21:19 K: So, it is, generally it is. Most minds are filled and crippled with knowledge. I am using the word ‘crippled’ in the sense of weighed down. Can such a mind perceive what is truth? Or must it be free from knowledge? | 21:19 克：所以，一般来说是这样。 人们大都脑子里塞满了知识， 被知识弄成了瘸子。 我用“瘸子”这个词， 意思是受到了重压。 这样的心灵能 洞见到什么是真理吗？ 还是说，心灵必须摆脱知识？ |
| 21:50 WR: To see the truth the mind must be free from all knowledge. | 21:50 拉：要看到真相， 心灵必须摆脱所有知识。 |
| 21:57 K: Yes, so why should one accumulate knowledge and then abandon it and then seek truth? You follow what I am saying? | 21:57 克：是的，那么人为何还要 积累知识，然后又放弃知识， 再去寻求真相呢？ 您明白我的意思吗？ |
| 22:06 WR: Yes, yes. I think that in our life, even when we take our ordinary life, most of the things which we avert are useful at the beginning, and for instance, in our studies as children at school, we can’t write without rules... | 22:06 拉：明白，明白。 我想，我们在生活中， 即使我们过着平凡的生活， 我们应避免的大多数事情 一开始还是有用的， 比如， 我们小时候上学， 我们没有横线就写不好字 |
| 22:33 K: Of course, of course. | 22:33 克：当然，当然。 |
| 22:35 WR:...but today I can’t write on ruled paper. | 22:35 拉：……而今天我不会 再在划线的纸上写字了。 |
| 22:38 K: No. | 22:38 克：是的。 |
| 22:39 WR: But if I at that stage... | 22:39 拉：但如果我在那个阶段 |
| 22:42 K: Wait a minute, sir. I agree. When you are at school, college and university, we need lines – lines to write on and all the rest of it – but does not the beginning matter enormously which might condition the future, as he grows up? You understand what I am trying to...? I don’t know if I am making myself clear. Does freedom lie at the end or at the beginning? | 22:42 克：等一下，先生。 我同意。 上小学、中学、大学， 我们需要横线 ——需要贴着 横线什么的写字—— 但开始非常重要， 因为这可能在他长大时 影响他的未来，不是吗？ 您明白 我想说什么吗？ 我不知道 我是否表达清楚了。 自由是在结束， 还是在开始？ |
| 23:36 WR: It has no beginning, no end. Freedom has no beginning, no end. | 23:36 拉：自由没有开始，没有结束。 自由没有开始，没有结束。 |
| 23:49 K: No, therefore, would you say that freedom is limited by knowledge? | 23:49 克：是的，那么， 您认为知识会限制自由吗？ |
| 23:58 WR: Freedom is not limited by knowledge, perhaps knowledge which is wrongly applied, or acquired, may obstruct freedom. | 23:58 拉：自由不受知识限制， 也许误用、误得的知识 可能会妨碍自由。 |
| 24:10 K: No, there is no wrong or right accumulation of knowledge – knowledge. I may do certain ugly things and repent or carry on with those ugly things, which again is part of my knowledge. So I am asking if knowledge leads to freedom. As you say, discipline is necessary at the beginning. And as you grow older, mature, acquire capacities and so on, so on, that discipline, has it not conditioned the mind so that it can never abandon discipline in the usual sense of that word. | 24:10 克：不，积累知识没有对错之分， 那就是知识。 我可能做了某些丑事， 然后或者懊悔不已 或者继续做那些丑事， 而这又成了我知识的一部分。 所以我问 知识是否会带来自由。 正如您所说， 纪律一开始是必要的。 随着年龄增长，身体成熟， 获得能力，等等， 这种纪律 难道没有影响心灵， 以至于心灵无法抛弃纪律吗？ 我指的是通常意义上的纪律。 |
| 25:16 WR: Yes, I fully, quite understand. You agree that discipline at the beginning, at a certain level is necessary. | 25:16 拉：是的，我完全理解。 你同意， 纪律在一开始， 在一定程度上是必要的。 |
| 25:25 K: I question that, sir. When I say I question it, I don’t mean I doubt it, or it is not necessary, but I question it in order to enquire. | 25:25 克：我质疑这点，先生。 我说我质疑这个， 并不是怀疑纪律， 或者认为纪律没有必要， 我质疑是为了探询。 |
| 25:37 WR: Yes, I should say at a certain level it is necessary, and if you cannot abandon it ever – now, for instance, I am talking from the Buddhist point of view. And there are two words in Buddhism with regard to the way: Saikshya and Asaikshya. Saikshya is all those people who are on the way, who have not yet arrived, that means all those disciplines, precepts and all those things that are good and bad, right and wrong. And an arhat who has realised the truth is called Asaikshya. | 25:37 拉：是的，我应该说 纪律多少还是必要的， 如果你永远无法放弃它的话 ——例如，我现在是 从佛教的角度谈的。 佛教修行法门有两个词： Saikshya（在家弟子） 和Asaikshya（阿罗汉）。 Saikshya是那些 正在路上、还未圆满的人， 他们需要这些清规戒律， 需要知道这些善恶、 对错的道理。 而证得实相的阿罗汉 称为Asaikshya。 |
| 26:22 K: Asaikshya. Yes. | 26:22 克：Asaikshya。 是的。 |
| 26:23 WR: He has no discipline. | 26:23 拉：他没有戒律约束。 |
| 26:24 K: No, but he is beyond that. | 26:24 克：不，他超越了戒律。 |
| 26:25 WR: Because he is beyond that. | 26:25 拉：他超越了戒律。 |
| 26:25 K: Yes, I understand this. | 26:25 克：是的，我明白这一点。 |
| 26:28 WR: But that is a fact in life. | 26:28 拉：但这就是生活中的事实。 |
| 26:33 K: I question that, sir. | 26:33 克：我对此表示怀疑，先生。 |
| 26:36 WR: I have no doubt about it in my mind. | 26:36 拉：我对此毫不怀疑。 |
| 26:40 K: Then we have stopped enquiring. | 26:40 克：那我们的探询就停止了。 |
| 26:43 WR: No, it is not so. | 26:43 拉：不，不是这样的。 |
| 26:45 K: No, I mean, we are talking about knowledge – knowledge being useful or necessary, as a boat to cross the river. I want to enquire into that fact, or into that simile, whether it is the truth, whether it has the quality of truth – let’s put it that way. For the moment I am putting it that way. | 26:45 克：不，我的意思是， 我们在讨论知识 ——知识是有用的、必要的， 就像渡河的船。 我想探究一下， 这个事实或比喻 是否是真理， 是否具有真理的性质 ——我们这么来说。 我现在从这个角度说。 |
| 27:31 WR: You mean that simile, or that teaching? | 27:31 拉：您指的是那个比喻 还是教诲？ |
| 27:36 K: The whole of that. Which means, sir – just a minute – which means accepting evolution. | 27:36 克：都算上。 先生，这意味着 ——请稍等—— 这意味着我们接受进化。 |
| 27:49 WR: Yes. Accepting evolution. | 27:49 拉：是的。接受进化。 |
| 27:53 K: Evolution, gradually, step by step, advancing, and ultimately reaching. Right? First, I discipline, control, effort, and as I get more capacity, more energy, more strength, I abandon that and move on. | 27:53 克：进化， 逐渐地、一步步地前进， 最终功成圆满。 对吗？ 我先自律、控制、努力， 随着我的能力、能量、力量 越来越大， 我再放弃这些，继续前进。 |
| 28:30 WR: There is no plan like that, there is no plan, there is no programme like that. | 28:30 拉：这种计划并不存在， 没有计划， 没有这样的安排。 |
| 28:36 K: No, I am not saying that there is a plan. I am asking for enquiry, whether there is such a movement, such progress at all. | 28:36 克：我不是说有计划。 我现在问是为了探询， 究竟有没有这样的运动、 这样的进步。 |
| 29:00 WR: What do you think? | 29:00 拉：您怎么看？ |
| 29:03 K: What do I think? No. | 29:03 克：我怎么看？没有。 |
| 29:05 Dr Irmgard Schloegl: I agree very much with you, I can’t believe it. | 29:05 伊尔姆加德·施洛格博士：我非常 同意您的观点，我无法相信这种事。 |
| 29:11 WR: Yes, there is no progress. | 29:11 拉：是的，不存在进步。 |
| 29:14 K: No, we must go into it very carefully, sir, because the whole tradition, both Buddhist, Hindu and Christian, all the religious and non-religious attitude is caught up in time, in evolution – I will be better, I will be good, I will eventually blossom in goodness. Right? I am saying in that there is a root of untruth in it, there is untruth in it. Sorry to put it that way. | 29:14 克：不，我们必须 非常仔细地探询一下，先生， 因为所有传统， 无论是佛教、印度教还是基督教， 所有宗教、非宗教的 思想方法都受到了时间、 进化观念的束缚—— 我会变好，我会成为好人， 我最终会在善中 自由绽放。 对吗？ 我是说，这种思维中 根植着某种不真实的东西， 包含着不真实的成份。 抱歉这么说。 |
| 30:05 IS: May I please come in? I entirely agree with that. | 30:05 施：我可以插一句吗？ 我完全同意这点。 |
| 30:10 K: You disagree? | 30:10 克：您不同意吗？ |
| 30:12 IS: Entirely agree. | 30:12 施：完全同意。 |
| 30:13 K: Agree. | 30:13 克：同意。 |
| 30:14 IS: For the very good reason that ever since human beings have existed as far as we know, we have always known in our different contexts that we should be good. If it would be possible to progress by something like this, we would not be the human beings that we are nowadays. We would all have progressed sufficiently. | 30:14 施：理由很充分， 据我们所知， 自人类出现至今， 我们在不同的环境中 一直知道 我们应该向善。 但如果能依靠这种事情进步， 我们就不会是 我们今天这样的人类了。 我们都会取得 长足的进步。 |
| 30:38 K: Have we progressed at all? | 30:38 克：我们进步了吗？ |
| 30:40 IS: That is precisely – we have not progressed – if at all, very little. | 30:40 施：准确地说——没有—— 如果有的话，也非常小。 |
| 30:46 K: We may have progressed technologically, scientifically, hygienically and all the rest of it, but psychologically, inwardly, we have not, we are what we were ten thousand years ago, or more. | 30:46 克：我们可能在技术、 科学、卫生等 方面取得了进步， 但在心理上、内在上 并没有， 我们还是一万多年前的样子。 |
| 31:01 IS: And so the fact that we know that we should do good and have evolved so many systems of how to do it has not managed to help us to become precisely that. And as I see it, there is a specific obstacle in all of us and it is this obstacle that needs – because we do quite honestly from our very heart, most of us want to be good, but most of us do not bring it off – but it is this working through which seems to me at stake. | 31:01 施：因此，我们知道 我们应该行善， 并且发展出了如此多的 行善方法，这是事实， 但并无助于我们确实变好。 在我看来， 我们身上都有某种特定的障碍， 需要解决的正是这个障碍 ——我们确实诚心诚意、 发自内心， 大家都想做个好人， 但大部分人做不到这一点 —— 但在我看来， 正是这一关不好过。 |
| 31:36 K: You see, we have accepted evolution. Biologically there is evolution and we have transferred that biological fact into psychological existence, thinking psychologically we will evolve. | 31:36 克：你看，我们接受了进化。 生物进化是存在的， 而我们将这个生物学事实搬到 心理存在上来了， 认为我们也会在心理上进化。 |
| 31:59 WR: I don’t think that is the attitude. No. | 31:59 拉：我认为 我们没有这种思维。没有。 |
| 32:03 K: But that is what it means when you say ‘gradually’. | 32:03 克：但这就是 您说的“逐渐”的意思。 |
| 32:07 WR: No, I don’t say gradually. I don’t say that. The realisation of truth, attainment of truth or seeing the truth, is a thing without a plan, is without a scheme. | 32:07 拉：不，我没说逐渐。 我没这么说。 认识真理、 获得真理 或看到真理， 是没有计划、 没有方案的一件事。 |
| 32:25 K: Is out of time. | 32:25 克：存在于时间之外。 |
| 32:26 WR: Out of time. Exactly, out of time. | 32:26 拉：时间之外。 确实，时间之外。 |
| 32:31 K: Which means then, my mind, which has evolved through centuries, millennia, which is conditioned by time, which is evolution, which is the acquiring of knowledge – knowledge – more, more, more... will reveal the extraordinary truth. | 32:31 克：这意味着， 我的心灵， 经过几百年、几千年的进化， 受到了时间的塑造， 这就是进化， 也就是获取知识——知识 ——越来越多、越来越多 这样就可以揭示非凡的真理。 |
| 32:57 WR: It is not that knowledge which will reveal. | 32:57 拉：揭示真理的并不是知识。 |
| 33:00 K: So why should I accumulate knowledge? | 33:00 克：那我为什么要 积累知识呢？ |
| 33:02 WR: But how can you avoid it? | 33:02 拉：可是你能避免这种事呢？ |
| 33:05 K: Psychologically avoid it, not technologically. | 33:05 克： 在心理上避免， 不是在技术上。 |
| 33:09 WR: Yes, even psychologically, how can you do that? | 33:09 拉：是的，即使是在心理上， 您怎么能做到呢？ |
| 33:12 K: Ah, that’s a different matter. | 33:12 克：啊，那是另一回事了。 |
| 33:14 WR: Yes, how can you do because you are conditioned. We are all conditioned. | 33:14 拉：是的，您怎能办到， 因为你被塑造了。 我们都被塑造了。 |
| 33:18 K: Wait a minute, sir. Let’s go into it a little more. Am I all right, sir? | 33:18 克：等一下，先生。 我们再稍微探讨一下。 没问题吧，先生？ |
| 33:28 DB: Fine. | 33:28 博姆：没问题。 |
| 33:33 K: Biologically, physically, from childhood up to a certain age, maturity, adolescence and so on, that’s a fact. A little oak tree grows into a gigantic oak tree, that’s a fact. And is it a fact or we have created, assumed it is so, psychologically we must grow? Which is, psychologically, eventually I will achieve truth or truth will take place if I prepare the ground. | 33:33 克：从生物学、身体角度看， 人从童年成长到某个 年龄段，发育成熟， 进入青春期等等， 这是事实。 一棵小橡树长成 参天大树，这是事实。 我们在心理上 也必须成长， 这是事实， 还是我们造成的、假设的事实？ 也就是说，在心理上， 我最终会获得真理， 或者真理就会发生， 只要我打好基础。 |
| 34:22 WR: No, no. That is a wrong conclusion you have come to, that is a wrong conclusion. It is that the realisation of truth is a revolution, not evolution. | 34:22 拉：不对，不对。 你得出了 一个错误的结论， 那是个错误结论。 领悟真理是一场巨变， 而不是进化。 |
| 34:39 K: No, therefore, why – you understand, sir? – can the mind be free, psychologically, of this idea of progress? | 34:39 克：对，所以，为什么 ——你明白吗，先生？—— 心灵能够在心理上摆脱 这种进步的观念吗？ |
| 35:02 WR: It can be. | 35:02 拉：可以摆脱。 |
| 35:04 K: No, not ‘can be’. It must be, otherwise you can’t... | 35:04 克：不是“可以摆脱”。 必须摆脱，否则你无法 |
| 35:08 WR: That is what I told you, that revolution is not evolution, a gradual progress. | 35:08 拉：这就是我告诉你的， 巨变不是进化， 不是渐进。 |
| 35:20 K: So psychologically, can there be a revolution? | 35:20 克：那么我们能在心理上 发生巨变吗？ |
| 35:24 WR: Yes. Certainly. | 35:24 拉：当然能。 |
| 35:27 K: Which means what? No time. | 35:27 克：这意味着什么？ 没有时间。 |
| 35:30 WR: There is no time. | 35:30 拉：没有时间。 |
| 35:33 K: But all the religions, all the scriptures, whether it is Islam or whatever it is, have maintained you must go through certain systems. | 35:33 克：但所有宗教， 所有经典， 无论是伊斯兰教 还是其他什么， 都坚称你必须遵循某些体系。 |
| 35:48 WR: But not Buddhism. | 35:48 拉：但佛教没有。 |
| 35:49 K: No, sir, wait a minute. I wouldn’t even call Buddhism, I don’t know I have never read except when I was a boy, but that has gone out of my mind. When you say eventually, you must discipline first and let go of that discipline. | 35:49 克： 没有，先生，请等一下。 我甚至不愿意这样对待佛教， 我从未读过那些东西， 除了小时候， 那已经从我脑海中消失了。 你说你必须 先自律， 最终再放弃那个戒律。 |
| 36:09 WR: No, I don’t say that. I don’t postulate like that, and nor did Buddha. | 36:09 拉：不，我没这么说。 我没有这样假设， 佛陀也没有这样假设。 |
| 36:16 K: Then please, I may be mistaken. How do you consider... | 36:16 克：那么拜托，我可能弄错了。 你是怎么看的 |
| 36:21 WR: I ask you, how do you proceed. | 36:21 拉：我问你，你是怎么做的。 |
| 36:25 K: Proceed with what? | 36:25 克：做什么？ |
| 36:27 WR: That, the realisation of truth, how do you do that, tell me. | 36:27 拉：领悟真理， 你是怎么做到的，告诉我。 |
| 36:30 K: Ah, that’s a different matter. | 36:30 克：啊，那是另一回事了。 |
| 36:31 WR: Tell me how do you do that. | 36:31 拉：告诉我你是怎么做到的。 |
| 36:32 K: That’s quite a different matter. | 36:32 克：那完全是另一回事。 |
| 36:35 WR: Yes, I mean just, not like that, what I say is that we are conditioned. Nobody can avoid that, however much he tries. And the revolution is to see that you are conditioned. | 36:35 拉：是的，我的意思是， 不是那样的， 我说的是 我们受到了塑造。 谁都避免不了这个， 无论怎么努力。 而发生巨变就是看到 你受到塑造了。 |
| 36:55 K: Sir, all right, let’s begin. | 36:55 克：先生，好的，我们开始吧。 |
| 36:57 WR: The moment you see that it has no time, it is an entire revolution and that is the truth. | 36:57 拉：一旦你看到发生巨变 无需时间， 这就是一场彻底的巨变， 这就是真相。 |
| 37:04 K: Suppose one is conditioned in the pattern of evolution – I have been, I am, I shall be. That’s evolution. No? | 37:04 克：假设一个人 受到了进化模式的塑造—— 我过去如何、现在如何、 将来如何。 这就是进化。 不是吗？ |
| 37:25 WR: Yes. | 37:25 拉：是的。 |
| 37:26 K: You understand, sir? I was ugly yesterday but today I am learning about that ugliness and freeing myself and tomorrow I will be free of it. Right? That is our whole attitude, psychological structure of our being. This is an everyday fact! | 37:26 克：你明白吗，先生？ 昨天的我很丑， 我今天了解 这种丑陋并释放自己， 明天就可以摆脱丑陋。 对吗？ 这就是我们的整个思维， 就是我们的心理结构。 这是日常生活中的事实！ |
| 37:59 WR: Do we see that? | 37:59 拉：我们看到了吗？ |
| 38:01 K: Wait, we see that. Right? | 38:01 克：等等，我们看到了。 对吗？ |
| 38:05 WR: No. You see, understanding is one thing, intellectually, verbally. | 38:05 拉：不。你看，理解是 一回事，无论智力还是口头上。 |
| 38:12 K: No, I am not talking either intellectually or verbally, this is a fact: ‘I will try to be good’. | 38:12 克：不，我说的不是 在智力或口头上， 这是事实： “我想做个好人”。 |
| 38:21 WR: There’s no question of trying to be good. | 38:21 拉：想努力做好人没有问题。 |
| 38:23 K: No, but sir, not according to the Buddha, not according to scriptures, but average human being of everyday life, he says, ‘I am not as good as I should be, but I eventually – give me a couple of weeks or a couple of years – and I will be awfully good’. | 38:23 克：是的，但是先生， 不是根据佛陀的话， 不是根据经典， 可是，普通人在日常生活中 说，“我还不如我想的那样好， 但到最后——给我几周 或几年时间—— 我就会成为完人”。 |
| 38:46 WR: Certainly that is the attitude of the people. | 38:46 拉：当然， 人们就是这种思维。 |
| 38:49 K: Practically everybody. | 38:49 克：几乎人人如此。 |
| 38:50 WR: Practically everybody. I fully agree. | 38:50 拉：几乎人人如此。 完全同意。 |
| 38:52 K: Now, wait a minute. That is our conditioning, the Christian, the Buddhist – the whole world is conditioned by this idea, which may have come from the biological progress moved into the psychological field. | 38:52 克：现在，等一下。 我们受到了这种塑造， 基督教徒、佛教徒 ——所有世人都受到 这种观念的塑造， 这种观念可能来自生物进化， 但跑到心理领域了。 |
| 39:16 WR: Yes, that’s the point with you. | 39:16 拉：是的，这就是你的观点。 |
| 39:19 K: Now how is a man, or a woman, how is a human being, to break this pattern without time? You understand my question? | 39:19 克：现在，一个人，男人也好、 女人也好，怎样才能 不借助时间就打破这种模式呢？ 你明白我的问题吗？ |
| 39:41 WR: Yes, yes. It is only by seeing. | 39:41 拉：明白，明白。 这只能依靠看。 |
| 39:45 K: No, I can’t see if I am caught in this blasted ugliness of progress. And you say it is only by seeing, and I say I can’t see. | 39:45 克：不，这种进步讨厌而丑陋， 我要是陷在那里，就无法看见。 你说这只能依靠看， 而我说我看不见。 |
| 39:57 WR: Then you can’t. | 39:57 拉：那你就看不见。 |
| 39:58 K: No, but I want to enquire into it, sir. That is, why have we given progress in quotes, such importance, psychologically? | 39:58 克：是的，但我 想调查一下，先生。 也就是说，为什么我们在 心理上如此看重 “进步”，加引号的进步？ |
| 40:16 IS: I am not a scholar so that I come from the practical side. May I come in for a moment please? I am a practitioner but I have done my practice in a Buddhist field, and to me personally as a Westerner, as a one-time scientist, I have found the most satisfactory answer in the Buddhist teaching that I blind myself; I am my own obstacle, as long as I with all my bundle of conditioning, am here, I cannot see and act. It seems to be a possibility. | 40:16 施：我不是学者，所以 我的看法来自实践。 我可以参与一下吗？ 我是个修行者， 但我在佛教方面修行， 我本人是西方人， 曾经做过科学家， 我在佛教教导中找到的 最令我满意的答案是， 我蒙蔽了自己； 我是我自己的障碍， 我受到了所有各种塑造， 只要我在这里还受其影响， 就无法看见并行动。 这似乎指出了一种可能。 |
| 40:58 K: That doesn’t help, that doesn’t help. You are saying that I have learnt that. | 40:58 克：那无济于事， 那无济于事。 你是说我已经明白了。 |
| 41:05 IS: I have learnt it but I have learnt it in the same way as one learns to play the piano rather than in the way of studying a subject. That is the point that I would like to contribute. | 41:05 施：我明白了， 但是我是以 学弹钢琴的方式明白的， 而不是以 学习一门学科的方式。 这就是我想参与并提出的一点。 |
| 41:24 K: No, again you are going back to playing the piano, which means practice. Not practice, sorry, good pianists don’t practise I have been told. | 41:24 克：不，那你就又回到弹钢琴了， 回到练习上了。 没有练习，抱歉，我听人讲， 优秀的钢琴家并不练习。 |
| 41:35 IS: I must have practised in order to become it. | 41:35 施：我必须练习， 这样才能与教诲融为一体。 |
| 41:41 K: So what are we talking about at the end of this? | 41:41 克：那我们谈到最后 在谈什么呢？ |
| 41:46 GN: There seems to be one difficulty in this. Knowledge has a certain fascination, a certain power. One accumulates knowledge, whether it is Buddhist or scientific, and it gives you a peculiar sense of freedom, though it is not freedom, it’s more in the realm of conventional freedom. And after years of study one finds it very difficult to get out of this because through years, twenty, twenty-five years you arrive at this, and you value it, and it hasn’t got the quality of what you might call truth. And the difficulty with all practice seems to be that – when you practise you achieve something; and achievement is of the conventional reality type, it has got a certain power, a certain fascination, a certain capacity, maybe a certain clarity. | 41:46 纳：这里似乎有一个困难。 知识有某种吸引力、 有某种力量。 一个人积累了知识， 佛教知识也好，科学知识也好， 都会给你 一种奇特的自由感， 虽然这不是自由， 更多的是世俗的自由。 经过多年学习，人们发现 很难摆脱知识， 因为经过多年学习， 二十年、二十五年， 你到达了这一步， 你就会重视知识， 但知识不具有 你所谓的真理的品质。 所有练习的困难 似乎在于 ——你练习， 就会取得一些成就； 传统、现实的成就， 这种东西具有一定的力量， 一定的吸引力， 一定的能力， 也许还有一定的清晰度。 |
| 42:47 WR: By that you get attached to it. | 42:47 拉：由此你就会执着。 |
| 42:48 GN: Yes. And to break away from it is much more difficult than for a beginner, a beginner who has not got these things may see something more directly than a man who has so much of acquired wisdom. | 42:48 纳：是的。 而且会比初学者 更难摆脱执着， 初学者没有这些东西， 可能会更直接地看到， 而有了这么多的知识后 就会很难。 |
| 43:09 IS: Maybe. | 43:09 施：也许吧。 |
| 43:12 GN: Is it so? | 43:12 纳：是这样吗？ |
| 43:14 WR: That depends on the individual. You can’t generalise. | 43:14 拉：因人而异。 不能一概而论。 |
| 43:21 GN: No, one can’t generalise. | 43:21 纳：是，不能一概而论。 |
| 43:23 K: One can, sir, if I may point out, one can generalise as a principle. | 43:23 克：先生，如果可以指出的话， 可以概括出一项原则。 |
| 43:28 WR: As a principle, in which way? | 43:28 拉：原则，怎样概括？ |
| 43:33 K: I mean – let’s come back to it. We are all caught in this idea of progress. Right? Attainment. | 43:33 克：我的意思是—— 咱们言归正传。 我们都受这种 进步观念的束缚。 对吗？ 达到。 |
| 43:49 WR: Let us come to an agreement on that point that humanity accepts as a fact progress is a gradual evolutionary matter. As you said, biologically they accepted, and proved so they apply the same theory to psychological things. We agree it is the humanity’s position. | 43:49 拉：让我们就这一点达成一致， 人类承认这样一个事实： 进步是一个逐渐 进化的问题。 正如你说的，他们 在生物学上接受了，验证了， 于是，他们将同一理论 用在心理问题上了。 我们同意， 人就是这样看的。 |
| 44:13 K: So I say, is that the truth? I may have accepted biological progress, biological evolution which I have gradually transferred to psychological existence. Now I say is that the truth? | 44:13 克：所以我说，这是真的吗？ 我可能已经接受了生物 演化、生物进化， 我逐渐将这种进化转移 到心理领域了。 现在我问这种进化是真的吗？ |
| 44:37 WR: Now I see your question. I don’t think it is true. | 44:37 拉：现在我明白你的问题了。 我认为不是真的。 |
| 44:41 K: Therefore, just a minute, I abandon the whole idea of discipline. | 44:41 克：因此，等一下， 我就抛弃了整个纪律观念。 |
| 44:49 WR: When you see that. | 44:49 拉：当你看到这个的时候。 |
| 44:51 K: No, no. | 44:51 克：不，不。 |
| 44:53 WR: I should say that there is no question of abandoning. If you abandon it consciously... | 44:53 拉：应该说不存在 抛弃的问题。 如果你有意识地抛弃 |
| 45:00 K: No, sir, just a minute. I see what human beings have done which is move from the biological to the psychological, and there they have invented this idea that eventually you will come to godhead, or evolution, enlightenment, reach Brahman, reach whatever it is, nirvana or paradise, or hell also. If when a human being sees the falseness of it, actually not theoretically, then it is finished. | 45:00 克：不，先生，请稍等。 我看到人类干的就是 把进化从生物领域 搬到心理领域， 在那里，他们编造了这个观念， 你最终会到上帝身边， 或者经过进化、 启示，到达梵， 无论到达什么， 不管是涅槃、天堂还是地狱。 当一个人 看到这种虚假之后， 真正看到，而不是理论上看到， 那么事情就结束了。 |
| 45:52 WR: Absolutely, that is what I tell you all this time. | 45:52 拉：确实，这就是 我一直跟你讲的。 |
| 45:55 K: Therefore why should I then acquire knowledge of scriptures, of this or that, psychologically? | 45:55 克：既然这样，我为什么 还要学习经文啦， 这种那种知识， 在心理上？ |
| 46:04 WR: It is not necessary. | 46:04 拉：没有必要。 |
| 46:05 K: Then why do I read the Buddha? | 46:05 克：那我为什么要读佛经？ |
| 46:08 WR: That is what I told you we are all conditioned. | 46:08 拉：这就是我告诉你的， 我们都受到了塑造。 |
| 46:12 DB: I may say to you, could I ask a question that do you accept that we are all conditioned? | 46:12 博：我可以对你说， 我想问一下，你是否 接受我们都是受到塑造的？ |
| 46:21 K: Dr Bohm asks: do we all accept that we are conditioned? | 46:21 克：博姆博士问：我们都 承认我们受到塑造了吗？ |
| 46:25 WR: I don’t know whether you accept or not, I accept it. | 46:25 拉：我不知道 你接不接受，我接受。 |
| 46:30 WR: And there is nobody [who is not] in time. To be in time is to be conditioned. | 46:30 拉：没有谁不在时间之内。 在时间之内必然会受到塑造。 |
| 46:42 K: No, Dr Bohm is asking: the implication of his question is – need I translate what you are asking? Go on sir. It’s your show now. | 46:42 克：不，博姆博士问： 他的问题意思是 ——需要我翻译 你的问题吗？ 继续说，先生。现在该你讲了。 |
| 46:59 DB: Well? I am really saying that – how can I put it? I think that Krishnaji has said, at least in some of our discussions, that he was not deeply conditioned in the beginning and that therefore he had a certain insight which would not be common. Is that fair? | 46:59 博：嗯？其实我说的是 ——怎么说呢？ 我认为克里希那吉 至少在我们有些讨论中说过， 他早期没有受过很深的塑造， 因此他具有某种 罕见的洞察力。 这样说公平吗？ |
| 47:22 WR: I don’t find it... | 47:22 拉：我没见过这段话 |
| 47:24 K: He is referring to me, sir, leave me. I may be a biological freak, so leave me out of it. That is not totally important. What we are trying to discuss, sir, is this: that psychologically can we admit the truth that there is no movement forward – the truth of it, not the idea of it. You understand what I said, sir? | 47:24 克：他在说我，先生， 不要管我好了。 我可能是个生物学怪胎， 所以把我排除在外。 这根本不重要。 先生，我们想讨论的是 这个问题： 我们能否承认这个事实： 不存在任何心理进步 ——承认这个事实， 而不是这个想法。 你明白我的意思吗，先生？ |
| 48:14 WR: Yes, I understand. | 48:14 拉：是的，我明白。 |
| 48:15 K: The truth of it, not I accept the idea of it, the idea is not the truth! So do we as human beings see the truth or the falseness of what we have done? | 48:15 克：承认这个事实， 不是接受这个观念， 观念并非事实！ 那么，我们身为人类， 看到自己的所作所为 是真是假了吗？ |
| 48:36 WR: You mean human beings generally? | 48:36 拉：你是指普遍人类吗？ |
| 48:40 K: The whole world! | 48:40 克：整个世界！ |
| 48:41 WR: No, they don’t see, they certainly don’t. | 48:41 拉：不，他们没看到， 他们当然看不到。 |
| 48:46 K: Therefore when you are telling them: get more knowledge, read this, read that, scripture, what the Buddha said, what Christ said, if he existed at all, and so on and so on, they are full of this accumulative instinct which will help them to jump or propel themselves into heaven. | 48:46 克：因此，如果你 告诉他们：要学习更多知识， 要读这个经典、那个经典， 佛陀怎么说的， 基督怎么说的， 如果确有此人的话， 等等、等等， 那么，他们的本能反应， 就是认为依靠积累， 他们就可以跳进天堂， 或把自己推上天堂。 |
| 49:15 WR: Yes. You want to say something? | 49:15 拉：是的。你想说什么吗？ |
| 49:21 DB: When we say we are all conditioned, how do we establish that, how do we know that we are all conditioned? That is really what I wanted to say. | 49:21 博：我们说 我们都受到了塑造， 我们如何确定这一点， 我们怎样才能知道 我们都受到塑造了？ 我想说的其实是这个。 |
| 49:30 K: Yes, his question is, sir, are all human beings conditioned? | 49:30 克：对，先生，他的问题是， 全人类都受到塑造了吗？ |
| 49:42 WR: That is a very complicated question. As far as our society is concerned, all are conditioned. There can’t be anybody who is not conditioned because he is within type. But what we are talking about is the realisation of truth which has no time which is unconditioned. But you can’t say it is a human being as you take humanity. | 49:42 拉：这个问题非常复杂。 就我们社会而言， 所有人都受到了塑造。 不可能有谁没受到塑造， 因为他必然属于特定类型。 但我们谈的是 证悟真理， 这是没有时间， 没有条件的。 当你谈整个人类的时候， 你不能把这个用在一个人身上。 |
| 50:19 DB: But I really wanted to emphasise that if we say we are all conditioned, there could be two ways, you see. One way would be to look, accumulating knowledge about our conditioning, to say we observe the common human experience, we can look at people and see that they are generally conditioned. Right? And the other way would be to say, do we directly see in a more direct way that we are all conditioned? That’s really what I was trying to drive at. | 50:19 博：但我其实是想强调， 如果我们说 我们都受到了塑造， 那么可能有两种方式，你看。 一种是观察， 我们受到了哪些塑造， 积累这方面的知识， 也就是说，我们观察 人类的共同经验， 我们可以观察人们并发现 他们普遍受到塑造了。 对吗？ 另一种方式是， 我们可否直接看到，以更直接的 方式看到，我们受到塑造了？ 我其实是想要这样看。 |
| 50:48 WR: That of course, I should say there are people who see that. | 50:48 拉：当然，我应该说 有人看到了这个。 |
| 51:00 K: But does that, sir, help in this matter? I mean, there may be, or there may not be. | 51:00 克：但是，先生， 这对此有帮助吗？ 我的意思是，可能有， 也可能没有。 |
| 51:16 DB: You see, the only point I was trying to make was that, if we say we are all conditioned, then I think that there is nothing else to do but some kind of disciplined or gradual approach. That is, you begin with your conditioning. | 51:16 博：你看， 我想说的只是一个问题， 如果我们认为我们都受到了塑造， 那么我认为除了依照 某种纪律或渐进方法， 别无他法。 也就是说， 你从你受到的塑造出发。 |
| 51:29 K: Not necessarily. I don’t see that. | 51:29 克：不一定。 我不这么认为。 |
| 51:31 DB: Well, let’s try to pursue it. That’s the way I take your question, the implication of his question, Dr Rahula’s question, that if we begin all conditioned... | 51:31 博：好，我们来探究一下。 我这样理解你的问题， 他的问题有这个意思， 拉胡拉博士的问题， 如果我们开始就都受到了塑造 |
| 51:42 K: Which we are. | 51:42 克：我们就是这样。 |
| 51:43 DB: Which we are, then what can we do for the next step? | 51:43 博：我们就是这样， 那么我们下一步怎么办？ |
| 51:47 WR: There is nothing called ‘the next step’. | 51:47 拉：没有“下一步”一说。 |
| 51:54 DB: How can we be sure, how can we be free of the conditioning as we do whatever we do? | 51:54 博：我们怎样才能确定， 我们怎样 才能摆脱塑造的影响， 我们做什么都有这种问题？ |
| 52:02 WR: The freedom from conditioning is to see. | 52:02 拉：摆脱塑造的影响， 就是要去看。 |
| 52:09 DB: Well, the same question – how do we see? | 52:09 博：嗯，这是同一个问题 ——我们如何看？ |
| 52:12 WR: That of course many people have tried various ways. | 52:12 拉：很多人当然 都尝试过各种方法。 |
| 52:19 K: No, no, there are no various ways. The moment you say a way, you have already conditioned him. | 52:19 克：不， 并没有各种办法。 你一讲办法， 就已经在塑造他了。 |
| 52:28 WR: That is what I say. All that is finished. That is what I say. And you are also conditioning by your talks. But what I say is your talks, your lectures and teachings are also conditioning. Trying to uncondition the mind is also conditioning it. | 52:28 拉：这就是我说的。 一切都结束了。 这就是我说的。 你也是在 用你的谈话塑造人。 我说的是，你的谈话、 你的演讲和教诲 也在塑造人。 想让心灵摆脱塑造的影响 也是在塑造心灵。 |
| 52:57 K: No, no, I question that statement whether what we are talking about conditions the mind, the mind being the brain, the thoughts, the feelings, the whole human psychological existence, whether what K is talking about conditions the mind. I doubt it, I question it. | 52:57 克：不，我质疑这个说法， 我们谈的东西是否会 塑造心灵， 心灵就是大脑、 思想、感觉、 人的整个心理存在， K讲的东西有没有塑造心灵。 我怀疑、质疑这点。 |
| 53:34 WR: I think... | 53:34 拉：我认为 |
| 53:37 K: If I may say, we are going off from the central issue. | 53:37 克：如果我可以说一下的话， 我们跑题了。 |
| 53:40 WR: Yes. The question is how to see it – is this so? | 53:40 拉：是的。 问题是如何看到 ——是这样吗？ |
| 53:53 K: No, sir, no. Not ‘how’, there is no how. First, let us see this simple fact, sir, do I, as a human being and therefore representative of all humanity... I am a human being – right? – and therefore I represent all humanity. Right? | 53:53 克： 不，先生，不。 不是“如何”，没有“如何”。 首先，我们看看 这个简单的事实，先生， 我，身为一个人， 因此，我代表所有人 我是一个人 ——对吗？ —— 因此我代表所有人。 对吗？ |
| 54:30 IS: In an individual way. | 54:30 施：以个人的方式。 |
| 54:32 K: No, as a human being, I represent you, the whole world, because I suffer, I go through agony, mental, etc., etc., etc., so does every human being. So do I, as a human being, see the falseness, the step human beings have taken moving from the biological to the psychological, with the same mentality? There, progress, from the little to the big and so on, so on, from the wheel to the jet. As a human being, do I see the mischief that human beings have created moving from there to this? You understand? | 54:32 克：不，作为一个人， 我代表你，代表整个世界， 因为我受苦， 我遭受痛苦， 精神折磨，等等，等等，等等， 这种遭遇每个人都有。 那么，作为一个人， 我是否看到 人类这一步是虚假的， 即把生物领域这种思维照搬到 心理领域？ 在那个领域，有演化， 从小到大，等等， 从轮子到喷气式飞机。 作为一个人， 我是否看到了 人类这种思维从那里 跑到这里所造成的危害？ 你明白吗？ |
| 55:44 WR: Yes, yes. I follow. | 55:44 拉：是的，是的。我明白。 |
| 55:45 K: Do I see it, as I see the table? Or is it I say, ‘Yes, I accept the theory of it, the idea of it’, and then we are lost. Therefore the idea, the theory is the knowledge. | 55:45 克：我看到， 是像看到这张桌子一样吗？ 还是说，我说，“对，我接受 这个理论、这种观念”， 然后我们就迷失了。 因此观念、 理论就是知识。 |
| 56:14 IS: If I see it as this table, then it is not a theory any more. | 56:14 施：我要是像看这个桌子一样 看到，这就不再是理论了。 |
| 56:19 K: It is a fact. But the moment you move away from the fact it becomes idea, knowledge, and the pursuit of it. | 56:19 克：这是事实。 而一旦你回避事实， 那就成了想法、知识， 追求知识。 |
| 56:27 IS: And it has further and further pictures creating itself. | 56:27 施：知识本身还会进一步 衍生出更多的知识。 |
| 56:29 K: Further away from the fact. I don’t know if I am making myself clear. | 56:29 克：越来越远离事实。 我不知道 我是否表达清楚了。 |
| 56:35 WR: Yes, quite so. I guess that is so. | 56:35 拉：是的，确实如此。 我估计是这样的。 |
| 56:40 K: What is? Human beings move away? | 56:40 克：什么是这样？ 人类远离事实？ |
| 56:46 WR: Human beings are cornered in that. | 56:46 拉：人类陷在那里了。 |
| 56:51 K: No, no, no. Sir, it is a fact – isn’t it? – that there is biological progress, a little tree to a gigantic tree, from a baby and all the rest of it – boyhood, adolescence. Now have we moved with that mentality, with that idea, with that fact into the psychological field and created there the fact that we progress, which is a false movement? I wonder if I am making myself clear. | 56:51 克：不，不，不。 先生，这是事实 ——不是吗？ —— 存在这种生物过程， 小树长成参天大树， 从婴儿进入童年、青春期等等。 现在我们有没有把这种思维、 这种观念、 这个事实 搬到心理领域， 并在这里臆想出 我们在进步这样一种情况， 也就是一种虚假的运动？ 我想知道 我是否表达清楚了。 |
| 57:39 DB: Are you saying that is part of the conditioning? | 57:39 博：你是说 这是塑造的一部分吗？ |
| 57:42 K: No, don’t... leave the conditioning for the moment. I don’t want to enter into that. Sir, would you say, why have we taken over from the biological growth into the psychological growth, why? Which is a fact, why have we done this? | 57:42 克：不，别…… 暂时把塑造放下。 我不想谈这个。 先生，你会这样问吗？ 为什么我们 从生物成长转向了 心理成长， 为什么？ 这是事实， 我们为什么这样做？ |
| 58:08 IS: I wanted to become something. | 58:08 施：我想成为某个人物。 |
| 58:11 K: Which is you want satisfaction, you want safety, certainty, a sense of achievement. | 58:11 克：就是说， 你想得到满足，得到安全， 感到有把握，有成就感。 |
| 58:20 IS: And it is in that want that pushes on... | 58:20 施：正是这种欲望 推动着 |
| 58:23 K: So why doesn’t a human being see what he has done, actually, not theoretically? | 58:23 克：那么为什么人没有 真正地，而不是在理论上 看到他干了什么？ |
| 58:32 IS: As an ordinary human being. | 58:32 施：作为一个普通人。 |
| 58:34 K: You, I, X, Y, you. | 58:34 克：你，我，张三，李四，你。 |
| 58:36 IS: I do not like to see it. I do fear it. I try to put it extremely far. | 58:36 施：我不喜欢看到这个。 我确实害怕看到。 我想把它推得远远的。 |
| 58:43 K: Therefore you are living in an illusion. | 58:43 克：因此你生活在幻觉中了。 |
| 58:46 IS: Naturally. | 58:46 施：当然。 |
| 58:48 K: Why? | 58:48 克：为什么？ |
| 58:52 IS: I want to be something... | 58:52 施：我想成为什么…… |
| 58:53 K: No, no. | 58:53 克：不，不。 |
| 58:54 IS:...which I fear at the same time not to see. This is where the divide is. | 58:54 施：……我 同时又担心看不到。 就是这个地方有分裂。 |
| 59:01 K: You have a false fear, there is no fear. No, madam. When you see what you have done there is no fear. | 59:01 克：你不是真的恐惧，其实 并没有恐惧。没有，女士。 看到自己干了什么， 就没有恐惧了。 |
| 59:13 IS: But the fact is, that I usually do not see it. | 59:13 施：但事实是我通常看不到。 |
| 59:16 K: Why don’t you see it? | 59:16 克：你为什么没看到呢？ |
| 59:20 IS: I suspect because of fear. I don’t know why. I don’t want to. | 59:20 施：我怀疑是因为恐惧。 我不知道为什么。 我不想看到。 |
| 59:29 K: You are entering into quite a different field of fear. But I would just like to know as an enquiry, why human beings have done this, played this game for millennia. You understand, sir? Why this living in this false structure, and then people come along and say, ‘Be unselfish, be this’ and all the rest of it. | 59:29 克：你跑到完全不同的 恐惧领域里了。 但我探询，只是想知道， 为什么人类要这样做， 玩了几千年这个游戏。 你明白吗，先生？ 为什么要以 这种错误的思维生活， 然后有人过来说， “要大公无私， 要这样做”等等。 |
| 1:00:05 WR: Why? | 1:00:05 拉：为什么？ |
| 1:00:09 IS: All we human beings we have a very strong irrational side in us, an irrational side, I think that cannot be quite denied. | 1:00:09 施：我们人都有 很强的不理智的一面， 不理智的一面， 我认为不能完全否认这个。 |
| 1:00:19 K: I question all this. | 1:00:19 克：我对这些表示怀疑。 |
| 1:00:20 IS: You question it? | 1:00:20 施：你怀疑这个？ |
| 1:00:22 K: Because we are living not with facts but with ideas and knowledge. | 1:00:22 克：因为我们没有和 事实，而是和思想、知识 待在一起了。 |
| 1:00:33 WR: Certainly, certainly. | 1:00:33 拉：当然，当然。 |
| 1:00:36 K: Not with facts. The fact is: biologically there is, psychologically there isn’t. And so we give importance to knowledge, ideas, theories, philosophy, and all the rest of it. | 1:00:36 克：没有与事实共处。 事实是：进化，在生物上存在， 在心理上不存在。 因此，我们重视 知识、观念、理论、 哲学以及诸如此类的东西。 |
| 1:00:58 WR: You don’t agree at all, you don’t see at all that a certain development, an evolution, even psychologically? | 1:00:58 拉：你甚至完全不同意， 你完全看不到 心理上的某种发展、转变吗？ |
| 1:01:11 K: No. | 1:01:11 克：是的。 |
| 1:01:15 WR: A man who has been very undesirable, criminal, telling lies, stealing and all these things, you explain to him certain very fundamental, very elementary things, and he is changed into – in our conventional sense – a better man, now he does not steal, now he does not tell lies, he does not try to kill others. | 1:01:15 拉：有个人，非常 不受欢迎，他犯罪、说谎、 偷窃，什么都干， 你给他讲些做人的基本道理， 他就变成了我们传统意义上的 好人。 不偷窃，不说谎， 不想杀人。 |
| 1:01:44 K: He is a terrorist. | 1:01:44 克：他是恐怖分子。 |
| 1:01:47 WR: The man who is changed like that? | 1:01:47 拉：受到这种感化的这个人？ |
| 1:01:49 K: Yes. Are you saying, sir, a man who is ‘evil’, the terrorists that are going around the world, what is their future? Are you asking that? | 1:01:49 克：是的。 先生，你是说， 一个“邪恶”的人， 那些满世界捣乱的恐怖分子， 他们的未来会怎样？ 你问的是这个吗？ |
| 1:02:14 WR: No. Don’t you agree a criminal in the accepted sense... | 1:02:14 拉：不是。 你不同意， 公认意义上的罪犯 |
| 1:02:27 K:Accepted, the word ‘criminal’, yes. | 1:02:27 克：大家接受的 “罪犯”这个词，是的。 |
| 1:02:31 WR: You meet a criminal like that, you explain to him the wrong way that he lives, and he realises what you have said either because of the ideas he has realised or because of your personal influence, or whatever it may be, he transforms himself, he changes himself. | 1:02:31 拉：你遇到这样的罪犯， 你给他讲， 他那样生活不对， 他认识到你讲的是对的， 要么是因为 他意识到这种思想是对的， 要么是因为你个人的 影响，不管怎样， 他转变了， 他发生了变化。 |
| 1:02:53 K: I am not sure, sir. I am not sure. A criminal, in the orthodox sense of that word, whether you can talk to him at all. | 1:02:53 克：我确定不了，先生。 我不能确定。 如果人们 普遍认为一个人是罪犯， 那么你究竟能否和这个人说话。 |
| 1:03:08 WR: That, I don’t know. | 1:03:08 拉：那个，我不知道。 |
| 1:03:09 K: I mean, you can pacify him, you know, give him a reward and this and that, but an actual criminal-minded man, will he ever listen to any sanity? The terrorist – you know, sir, the terrorists – will he listen to you, to your sanity? Of course not. | 1:03:09 克：我的意思是， 你可以安抚他， 许诺他得到回报，等等， 但真正有犯罪心理的人， 他会听从理智的规劝吗？ 恐怖分子 ——你知道，先生，恐怖分子—— 他会听你讲道理吗？ 当然不会。 |
| 1:03:32 WR: That you can’t say, I don’t know. I am not so positive about it. | 1:03:32 拉：这个无法保证，我不 知道。我对此不太乐观。 |
| 1:03:36 K: That is what’s happening, sir. | 1:03:36 克：这就是正在发生的事情，先生。 |
| 1:03:40 WR: But I have no proof, I can’t say that. | 1:03:40 拉：但我没有证据， 我不能这么说。 |
| 1:03:43 K: I have no proof either, but you can see what is happening. | 1:03:43 克：我也没有证据， 但你可以看到发生了什么。 |
| 1:03:48 WR: What is happening is, there are terrorists and we don’t know whether any terrorist was transformed and converted to be a good man. We have no proof. | 1:03:48 拉：现在情况是， 有恐怖分子， 而我们不知道有没有 恐怖分子转变了， 变成好人。 我们没有证据。 |
| 1:04:00 K: You see, that is my whole thing. The bad man evolved into a good man. | 1:04:00 克：你看，我要说的就是这个。 坏人转化成好人这件事。 |
| 1:04:12 WR: That in the popular sense and the conventional sense, certainly there is, I can’t deny that. | 1:04:12 拉：从通俗和传统意义上讲， 肯定有， 我不能否认这点。 |
| 1:04:22 K: I don’t quite follow. | 1:04:22 克：我不太明白。 |
| 1:04:24 WR: A bad man... | 1:04:24 拉：坏人…… |
| 1:04:25 K: Quotes, ‘bad’ man. | 1:04:25 克：加引号的“坏”人。 |
| 1:04:27 WR: Yes, that’s right, within inverted commas. A bad man, or a criminal, changing his way of life and becoming a ‘good’ man – good also in inverted commas. | 1:04:27 拉：是的，没错， 加引号。 坏人或罪犯， 改变其生活方式， 成了“好”人 ——好字也加引号。 |
| 1:04:43 K: Yes, we know that, we have dozens of examples. | 1:04:43 克：是的，我们知道， 这种例子我们有几十个。 |
| 1:04:49 WR: Don’t we accept that at all? | 1:04:49 拉：我们根本不接受这种转变吗？ |
| 1:04:51 K: But, no, wait a minute, sir, wait a minute. Bad man who tells lies, who does cruel things, and so on, probably one day he realises that’s an ugly business, and says, ‘I’ll change and become good’, but that is not goodness. Goodness is not born out of badness. | 1:04:51 克：但是，不，等一下， 先生，等一下。 一个坏人，他说谎、 作恶多端，等等， 可能有一天他会意识到 这样做太丑恶， 于是他说， “我要改变，做个好人”， 但这不是善。 善不是从恶中产生的。 |
| 1:05:26 WR: No, badness, certainly not. | 1:05:26 拉：对，恶，当然不是。 |
| 1:05:29 K: Therefore the ‘bad’ man, in quotes, can never become the good man, non quotes. | 1:05:29 克：因此，带引号的“坏”人， 永远不可能成为 不带引号的好人。 |
| 1:05:39 WR: No, I would quote surely, ‘goodness’. | 1:05:39 拉：不，我肯定会给 “善”加引号。 |
| 1:05:43 K: Ah, goodness is not the opposite of the bad. | 1:05:43 克：啊，善并不是 恶的对立面。 |
| 1:05:48 WR: At that level, it is. | 1:05:48 拉：在这个层面，是对立面。 |
| 1:05:50 K: At any level. | 1:05:50 克：在任何层面。 |
| 1:05:52 WR: I don’t agree. | 1:05:52 拉：我不同意。 |
| 1:05:59 GN: We might put it this way. In the reality level, conventional level, the bad man becomes the good man. I think we carry that phrase, that attitude to the progress psychologically. That’s one thing we do, the human mind does. | 1:05:59 纳：我们或许可以这样说。 在现实层面、 世俗层面， 坏人可以变成好人。 我认为我们把这句话、 这种思维 搬到心理领域、心理进化上了。 这是我们， 人的头脑所做的一件事。 |
| 1:06:24 WR: That is what we were talking about. That is, transfer of this idea to the psychological realm. | 1:06:24 拉：我们谈的就是这个。 也就是把这个想法转移 到心理领域。 |
| 1:06:31 K: No, I would like to... Sir, you... were you going to say something? | 1:06:31 克：不，我想 先生，你…… 你刚才要说些什么吗？ |
| 1:06:37 GN: The other thing is, we seem to feel that that psychological progress is the only way the bad man becomes the good man at the relative level. | 1:06:37 纳：另一个问题是， 我们似乎认为 心理进步 是坏人在相对层面上 成为好人的唯一途径。 |
| 1:06:50 K: I don’t want even to... you see, Narayan, you are making it again a relative thing. Sir, may I put it this way: is there an opposite? | 1:06:50 克：我甚至不想 你看，纳拉扬，你 又把它弄成相对的了。 先生，我可以这样说： 对立的事物存在吗？ |
| 1:07:09 GN: At the relative level? | 1:07:09 纳：在相对层面？ |
| 1:07:12 K: No, at any level – psychological, of course, you are wearing yellow and I am wearing brown, the opposite: night and day, man and woman and so on, so on. But is there an opposite of fear? Is there an opposite of goodness? Is love the opposite of hate? | 1:07:12 克：不，在任何层面 ——心理上， 当然，你穿的是黄的， 我穿的是棕色的， 对立物：白天、黑夜， 男人、女人等等。 但恐惧有对立面吗？ 善有对立面吗？ 爱是恨的对立面吗？ |
| 1:07:53 WR: Yes, if you ask me... | 1:07:53 拉：是，如果你问我的话 |
| 1:07:54 K: Opposite, which means duality. | 1:07:54 克：对立，也就是二元性。 |
| 1:07:57 WR: Yes, certainly, I would say this – we are talking in dualistic terms. | 1:07:57 拉：当然是，我会这么说 ——我们在用二元论术语讨论。 |
| 1:08:07 K: All language is dualistic as it is. | 1:08:07 克：所有语言都是二元的， 就是这样。 |
| 1:08:11 WR: You can’t talk, I can’t talk without dualistic approach. | 1:08:11 拉：不用二元的方法，你就 不能说话，我也不能说话。 |
| 1:08:14 K: Yes, sir, comparing, judging. But I am not talking of that. | 1:08:14 克：是的，先生，比较、判断。 但我说的不是这个。 |
| 1:08:17 WR: And at the moment you speak about the absolute, the ultimate, when we talk good and bad we are talking in the dualistic level. | 1:08:17 拉：现在你谈的是绝对、终极， 而我们谈好坏， 是在二元的层面上谈的。 |
| 1:08:32 K: No, that’s why I want to move away. | 1:08:32 克：不，这就是 我不想谈的原因。 |
| 1:08:34 WR: You can’t talk about the absolute in terms of good or bad, there is nothing called absolute good, or bad. | 1:08:34 拉：你不能用 好坏来谈绝对的事情， 没有什么绝对的好， 绝对的坏。 |
| 1:08:39 K: No, no, sir. Is courage the opposite of fear? That is, if fear is non-existent, is it courage? Or it is something totally different? | 1:08:39 克：不，不，先生。 勇敢是恐惧的对立面吗？ 就是说，如果恐惧不存在， 那还是勇敢吗？ 还是说，那是 完全不同的东西？ |
| 1:09:11 IS: It is something totally different. | 1:09:11 施：那是完全不同的东西。 |
| 1:09:13 K: Therefore it is not the opposite. Goodness is never the opposite of bad. So what are we talking about when we say, ‘I will move, change from my conditioning, which is bad, to freedom from conditioning, which is good’? Therefore freedom is the opposite of my conditioning. Therefore it is not freedom at all! That freedom is born out of my conditioning, because I am caught in this prison and I want to be free. It is a reaction to the prison, which is not freedom. | 1:09:13 克：因此，那不是对立面。 善绝不是恶的对立面。 那么，我们说“我会改变， 从受塑造影响，也就是坏， 变为不受塑造影响， 也就是好”， 我们谈的是什么呢？ 这样的话，自由 就是我受到的塑造的对立面。 那么，这根本就不是自由！ 这种自由产生于塑造， 我困在这个监狱里， 我想要自由。 这是对监狱的反应， 而不是自由。 |
| 1:10:23 WR: I don’t quite follow. | 1:10:23 拉：我不太明白。 |
| 1:10:33 K: Sir, could we consider for a minute: is love the opposite of hate? | 1:10:33 克：先生，我们 思考一下： 爱是恨的对立面吗？ |
| 1:10:51 WR: The only thing you can say is, where there is love there is no hate. | 1:10:51 拉：你只能说， 有爱就没有恨。 |
| 1:10:57 K: Ah, no, no. I am asking quite a different question. I am asking: is hate the opposite of affection, love? If it is, then in that affection, in that love, there is hate because it is born out of hate, out of the opposite. All opposites are born out of their own opposites. No? | 1:10:57 克：啊，不是，不是。 我问的是完全不同的问题。 我问的是：恨是 关爱、爱的对立面吗？ 如果是，那么在那种关爱中、 在那种爱中，就存在恨， 因为它是从恨中、 从对立面中产生的。 所有对立物都是从自身的 对立面中诞生的。不是吗？ |
| 1:11:30 WR: I don’t know. That is what you say. | 1:11:30 拉：我不知道。 这是你说的。 |
| 1:11:35 K: But it is a fact, sir. Look, I am afraid and I cultivate courage in order to put away fear. I take a drink, or you know, all the rest of it, to get rid of fear. And at the end of it I say I am very courageous. All the war heroes and all the rest of them are given medals for this because they are frightened and they say, ‘We must go and kill’ or do something, and they are very courageous – heroes. | 1:11:35 克：但这是事实，先生。 听着，我害怕， 我培养勇气，消除恐惧。 我喝酒，采取各种办法， 来消除恐惧。 最后我说，我非常勇敢。 所有战争英雄之类的人物 都因此获得了奖章， 因为他们害怕， 他们说，“我们必须杀敌” 或必须做什么， 他们非常勇敢， 这就是英雄。 |
| 1:12:15 WR: That is not courage. | 1:12:15 拉：这不是勇敢。 |
| 1:12:18 K: Therefore I am saying anything born out of its opposite contains its own opposite. | 1:12:18 克：因此我说， 凡是诞生于对立面的事物 都包含自身的对立面。 |
| 1:12:29 WR: How? | 1:12:29 拉：怎样包含？ |
| 1:12:33 K: Sir, if someone hates and then says I must love, that love is born out of hate, because he knows what hate is and he says, ‘I must not be that, and I must be that’. So that is the opposite of this. Therefore that opposite contains this. | 1:12:33 克：先生，如果有人心怀恨意， 然后说我必须爱， 那么爱就是从恨中诞生的， 因为他知道恨是什么， 他说，“我不能那样， 我必须那样”。 所以那个就是这个的对立面。 因此，那个对立面就 包含这个。 |
| 1:13:05 WR: I don’t know whether it is the opposite. | 1:13:05 拉：我不知道 那是不是对立面。 |
| 1:13:08 K: That is how we live, sir! This is what we do! I am sexual, I must not be sexual. I take a vow of celibacy – not I – people take a vow of celibacy which is the opposite. So we are always caught in this corridor of opposites. And I question the whole corridor. I don’t think it exists. We have invented it, but actually it doesn’t exist. I mean, please, this is explanation, don’t accept anything, sir. | 1:13:08 克：我们就是这样生活的，先生！ 我们就是这么干的！ 我有性欲，我绝不能有性欲。 我发誓独身 ——不是说我—— 人们发誓独身， 这就是对立面。 所以我们总困在 这条有对立面的走廊里。 我质疑整个这条走廊。 我认为这并不存在。 这是我们虚构出来的， 实际并不存在。 我的意思是，拜托，我是在解释， 什么也不要相信，先生。 |
| 1:14:05 IS: Personally from the way in which I, where I stand at this moment, see it, and I claim no possibilities for either the truth of it, or something, it is a working hypothesis. | 1:14:05 施：就我个人而言， 从我此刻所站的角度来看， 我认为不可能 真有这种东西或别的什么， 这只是个可行的假设。 |
| 1:14:20 K: No, madam, you can... | 1:14:20 克：不，女士，你可以 |
| 1:14:22 IS: I see this channel as a humanising factor. | 1:14:22 施：我认为这个通道 是个使人更加人道的因素。 |
| 1:14:26 K: Which? | 1:14:26 克：哪个通道？ |
| 1:14:28 IS: This channel of opposites, we are caught in it. | 1:14:28 施：这个对立面的通道， 我们困在那里。 |
| 1:14:31 K: Oh no, that is not a humanising factor! That is like saying ‘I have been a tribal entity, now I have become a nation, and then ultimately international’ – it is still tribalism going on. | 1:14:31 克：哦不，这不是 使人更人道的因素！ 那就像是说 “我以前是部落， 现在我是国家了， 最终会成为国际” ——这仍然是部落主义。 |
| 1:14:50 IS: No. That I quite agree. I see it in the sense of a really barbaric stage, I could have laughed when you had broken your leg, nowadays I could not laugh any more. I mean it in that sense. | 1:14:50 施：不。这个我非常同意。 我是从这个角度看的， 在非常野蛮的阶段， 以前，你要是摔断腿， 我会哈哈大笑， 现在，我再也不会笑了。 我是从这个意义上讲的。 |
| 1:15:09 DB: I think we do actually – I think both of you are saying we do in some sense make progress, in the sense that we’re not as barbaric as before. Right? | 1:15:09 博：我认为我们确实是这样 ——我想二位都说 我们在某种意义上确实进步了， 从某种意义上说，我们不像 以前那么野蛮了。 对吗？ |
| 1:15:22 IS: That is what I mean as the humanising factor. | 1:15:22 施：这就是我所说的 使人更人道的因素。 |
| 1:15:24 DB: That’s what I think you both are saying. | 1:15:24 博：我认为 你们说的都是这个。 |
| 1:15:26 K: I question whether it is humanising. | 1:15:26 克：我质疑 这是否让人更人道。 |
| 1:15:29 WR: I don’t like to go to extremes of the fact. | 1:15:29 拉：我不喜欢走极端。 |
| 1:15:34 K: No, this is not extremes, this is just facts. Facts are not extreme! | 1:15:34 克：不，这不是极端，这 只是事实。事实不是极端！ |
| 1:15:39 DB: Are you saying that this is not a genuine progress? You see, in the past people were far more barbaric generally than they are today, and therefore would you say that that really doesn’t mean very much? | 1:15:39 博：你是说 这不是真正的进步吗？ 你看，过去的人普遍 比现在野蛮得多， 所以你认为 这真的没什么意义吗？ |
| 1:15:53 K: I don’t quite follow. | 1:15:53 克：我不太明白。 |
| 1:15:54 DB: Well, some people would point to their past and say there was a great deal of barbarism then. | 1:15:54 博：嗯， 有些人会 提到他们的过去， 并说他们当时很野蛮。 |
| 1:16:00 K: We are still barbarous. | 1:16:00 克：我们现在仍很野蛮。 |
| 1:16:01 DB: Yes, we are, but some people say we are not as barbaric as... | 1:16:01 博：是的，是这样， 但有些人认为 我们不像……那么野蛮。 |
| 1:16:04 K: Not ‘as’. | 1:16:04 克：不“像”。 |
| 1:16:05 DB: Let’s see if we can get it straight. Now would you say that that is not important, that is not significant? | 1:16:05 博：我们看看 能否把这个理顺了。 那么，你认为那种变化 既不重要也没有意义，是吗？ |
| 1:16:12 K: No. When I say I am better than I was – it has no meaning. | 1:16:12 克：是的。 我比我以前变好了 ——这毫无意义。 |
| 1:16:18 DB: You say that has no meaning to say that. | 1:16:18 博：你认为这么说毫无意义。 |
| 1:16:20 K: Absolutely, it has no meaning. | 1:16:20 克：当然，毫无意义。 |
| 1:16:24 DB: I think we should clarify that. | 1:16:24 博：我觉得我们应该澄清这一点。 |
| 1:16:28 WR: In the relative, dualistic sense I don’t accept that. I can’t see that. But in the absolute, ultimate sense there is nothing like that. | 1:16:28 拉：从相对的、二元的角度看， 我不接受这点。 我看不到这点。 但从绝对、终极的角度， 没有这回事。 |
| 1:16:44 K: No, not ultimately – I won’t even accept that word ‘ultimately’. I see how the opposite is born in everyday life, not ultimately. I am greedy, that’s a fact. I try to become non-greedy, which is non-fact, but if I remain with the fact I am greedy, then I can do something about it actually, now. Therefore there is no opposite. Sir, you know violence and non-violence. Non-violence is the opposite of violence, as an ideal. So non-violence is non-fact. Violence is the only fact. Right? So I can then deal with facts, not with non-facts. | 1:16:44 克：不，不是最终——我甚至不想 接受“最终”这个词。 我看到对立面是如何产生的， 在日常生活中，而不是在最后。 我很贪婪，这是事实。 我试图变得不贪婪， 这不是事实， 但我如果和事实共处， 我很贪婪， 那我现在就可以 实实在在地处理贪婪。 因此，并没有对立面。 先生，你知道 暴力和非暴力。 非暴力是 暴力的对立面， 是一个理想。 所以非暴力不是事实。 只有暴力才是事实。 对吗？ 这样我就可以处理事实， 而不是处理非事实。 |
| 1:18:17 WR: So what is your point? | 1:18:17 拉：那你的观点是什么？ |
| 1:18:18 K: My point is: there is no duality even in daily life. It is the invention of all these philosophers, intellectuals, who say there is the opposite, work for that. The Utopians, the idealists. The fact is I am violent, that’s all. Let me deal with that. And to deal with it don’t invent non-violence. | 1:18:18 克：我的观点是：哪怕在 日常生活中也不存在二元性。 这是那些 哲学家、知识分子编造的， 他们认为有对立面存在， 要解决对立。 乌托邦主义者，理想主义者。 事实是我很暴力， 仅此而已。 我来处理这个问题。 要处理暴力问题， 不要编造什么非暴力。 |
| 1:18:47 IS: The question therefore is: how am I now going to deal with it having accepted the fact that I am violent... | 1:18:47 施：由此问题就是： 我接受我很暴力这个事实后， 现在我该怎样处理它 |
| 1:18:53 K: No, not accepted, it’s a fact. | 1:18:53 克：不是接受，这是事实。 |
| 1:18:55 IS:...having seen it. | 1:18:55 施：……我看到了这个。 |
| 1:18:57 K: Then we can proceed, I’ll show you. | 1:18:57 克：那我们就可以继续了， 我会告诉你。 |
| 1:18:59 IS: And the question is how to proceed. | 1:18:59 施：问题是如何继续。 |
| 1:19:02 K: We’ll proceed with that. But first I must see what I have done. I avoid the fact and run away to non-fact. That is what is happening in the world – all over. So don’t run but remain with the fact. Can you do it? | 1:19:02 克：我们会由此继续。 但首先我必须看看 我做了什么。 我回避事实， 跑到非事实那里。 这是世上正在发生的事情 ——整个世界。 所以不要跑， 要与事实共处。 你能做到吗？ |
| 1:19:39 IS: It is part of our training. That is part of the training that I learnt. That is precisely the point. | 1:19:39 施：这是我们所受训练的一部分。 这是我学到的， 受到的训练的一部分。 正是这个问题。 |
| 1:19:46 K: I am sorry, I won’t accept the word ‘training’. | 1:19:46 克：对不起， 我不接受“训练”这个词。 |
| 1:19:48 IS: Well, it is precisely this ‘can you do it’... | 1:19:48 施：嗯，正是这个 “你能做到吗” |
| 1:19:52 K: I said of course you can do it. | 1:19:52 克：我说你当然能做到。 |
| 1:19:54 IS:...and one does it though one very often does not like doing it. | 1:19:54 施：……人们会这样做， 尽管他们通常不喜欢这样做。 |
| 1:19:59 K: It is like seeing something dangerous and you say, ‘It’s dangerous, I won’t go near it’. Running away from the fact is dangerous. Finished. You don’t run. That doesn’t mean you train, you practise not to run, you don’t run. I think the gurus have invented this running, the philosophers. Sorry. | 1:19:59 克：就像看到一些危险的东西， 你说，“这很危险， 我不会靠近它”。 逃避事实是危险的。 就是这样。 你不逃走。 这不是说，你训练、 练习如何不逃走， 你就是不逃走。 我认为这种逃跑的做法是那些古鲁、 哲学家编造出来的。 对不起。 |
| 1:20:36 WR: There is no running away. That is entirely different. It is a wrong way of putting it. | 1:20:36 拉：不存在逃跑。 那是完全不同的问题。 这么说是不对的。 |
| 1:20:43 K: No, sir. | 1:20:43 克：不，先生。 |
| 1:20:46 WR: You can’t run away. | 1:20:46 拉：你无法逃离。 |
| 1:20:48 K: No, I am saying, look. | 1:20:48 克：不，我是说，看。 |
| 1:20:51 WR: If you see, there is no running in it. | 1:20:51 拉：如果你看到的话， 这里就没有逃跑一说。 |
| 1:20:55 K: I am saying, don’t run. Then you see. Ah, no, don’t run, then you see. But we say, ‘I can’t see because I am caught in that’. | 1:20:55 克：我是说，不要跑。 这样你就会看见。 啊，不，别跑， 这样你就会看见。 但我们说，“我看不见， 因为我陷在那里了”。 |
| 1:21:22 WR: Now I quite see that, what you say, your point, I see very well. | 1:21:22 拉：现在我完全明白这个了， 你说的是什么， 你的观点，我看得很清楚。 |
| 1:21:31 K: So, there is no duality. | 1:21:31 克：所以，不存在二元性。 |
| 1:21:36 WR: Where? | 1:21:36 文：在哪儿？ |
| 1:21:37 K: Now, in daily life, not ultimately. | 1:21:37 克：现在，在日常生活里， 而不是最终。 |
| 1:21:43 WR: What is duality? | 1:21:43 拉：什么是二元性？ |
| 1:21:44 K: Which is the opposite. Violence and non-violence. The whole of, you know, India has been practising non-violence which is nonsense. There is only violence, let me deal with that. Let human beings deal with violence, not with the ideal of non-violence. | 1:21:44 克：对立的事物。 暴力和非暴力。 你知道，整个印度 一直在倡导非暴力， 那纯粹是胡扯。 我们只有暴力， 让我来处理这个。 让人类来处理暴力，而 不是处理非暴力的理想。 |
| 1:22:13 WR: Yes, that is of course quite a different question, what you are talking. | 1:22:13 拉：是的，当然这 完全是另外的问题， 你讲的这个。 |
| 1:22:19 K: No. | 1:22:19 克：不。 |
| 1:22:21 WR: I fully agree, if you see the fact, this is a fact, we must handle this. | 1:22:21 拉：我完全同意， 如果你看到事实，这就是事实， 我们必须处理这个。 |
| 1:22:27 K: Therefore there is no progress. | 1:22:27 克：所以不存在进步这回事。 |
| 1:22:33 WR: That’s a word you can use anyway. | 1:22:33 拉：你可以以各种方式用这个词。 |
| 1:22:35 K: No, not any way. | 1:22:35 克：不，不是各种方式。 |
| 1:22:37 WR: It is simply a word. | 1:22:37 拉：这只是一个词。 |
| 1:22:38 K: No, sir, no sir. When we have an ideal, to achieve that ideal I need time. Right? Therefore I will evolve to that. | 1:22:38 克：不，先生，不，先生。 我们要是有理想， 实现这个理想就需要时间。 对吗？ 因而我要向那个理想进化。 |
| 1:23:10 WR: So? | 1:23:10 拉：所以？ |
| 1:23:13 K: So no ideals. Only facts. | 1:23:13 克：所以没有理想。 只有事实。 |
| 1:23:22 WR: It is perfectly so. What is the difference, the argument? We agree there are only facts. | 1:23:22 拉：完全如此。 二者 有什么区别，理由是什么？ 我们一致认为只有事实。 |
| 1:23:30 K: Which means, sir, to look at facts time is not necessary. | 1:23:30 克：先生，这意味着 看事实是不需要时间的。 |
| 1:23:37 WR: Absolutely not. | 1:23:37 拉：绝对不需要。 |
| 1:23:40 K: Therefore if time is not necessary, I can see it now. | 1:23:40 克：所以如果 不需要时间的话， 我现在就可以看见了。 |
| 1:23:46 WR: Yes, certainly. | 1:23:46 拉：当然可以。 |
| 1:23:48 K: You can see it now. Why don’t you? | 1:23:48 克：你现在就可以看到。 你为什么没看到？ |
| 1:23:52 WR: Why don’t you? That is another question. | 1:23:52 拉：你为什么没看到？ 那是另一个问题了。 |
| 1:23:54 K: No, no, no. | 1:23:54 克：不，不，不。 |
| 1:23:55 WR: Yes. | 1:23:55 拉：是的。 |
| 1:23:56 K: No, no, not another question. | 1:23:56 克：不，不，不是另一个问题。 |
| 1:23:59 DB: It’s the same. If you take it seriously that time is not necessary, then right now one could perhaps clear up the whole thing. | 1:23:59 博：这是一回事。 你要是认真理解 时间是不必要的， 那么此刻你也许就可以 澄清整个问题。 |
| 1:24:10 WR: Yes, that does not mean all human beings can do it, there are people who can do it. | 1:24:10 拉：是的，这并不意味着 所有人都能做到， 而是有人能做到。 |
| 1:24:16 K: No. If I can see it, you can see it. | 1:24:16 克：不。 我能看到，你就能看到。 |
| 1:24:22 WR: I don’t think so. I don’t agree with you frankly. | 1:24:22 拉：我不这么认为。 坦白说我不同意你的观点。 |
| 1:24:28 K: It is not a question of agreement, sir, I am not trying to argue about this matter, so there is no agreement or disagreement. But when we have ideals away from facts time is necessary to get there, progress is necessary. I must have knowledge to progress. All that comes in. Right? So can you abandon ideals? | 1:24:28 克：这不是 同不同意的问题，先生， 我不想争论这个问题， 所以没有 同不同意的问题。 但我们要是抱着各种理想， 脱离事实， 就需要时间来实现理想， 就需要进步。 我必须有知识才能进步。 所有这些都来了。 对吧？ 那么你能放弃理想吗？ |
| 1:25:17 WR: It is possible. | 1:25:17 拉：有可能。 |
| 1:25:19 K: Ah, not ‘possible’! The moment you use the word ‘possible’ you say time is necessary. | 1:25:19 克：啊，不是“可能”！ 你一用“可能”这个词， 就等于说时间是必要的了。 |
| 1:25:26 WR: I mean seeing the facts... | 1:25:26 拉：我的意思是看到事实 |
| 1:25:29 K: Do it now, do it, sir, not – forgive me, I am not being authoritarian – when you say it is possible you have already moved away. | 1:25:29 克：现在就看，看一看，先生， ——抱歉， 我不是在搞专制—— 你一说有可能， 就回避了问题。 |
| 1:25:41 WR: I mean to say, that I must say that everybody can’t do it. | 1:25:41 拉：我的意思是，我必须说 这不是谁都能看到的。 |
| 1:25:48 K: How do you know? | 1:25:48 克：你怎么知道？ |
| 1:25:50 WR: That is a fact. That is a fact. | 1:25:50 拉：这是事实。 这是事实。 |
| 1:25:53 K: No, I won’t accept that. | 1:25:53 克：不，我不接受这个说法。 |
| 1:25:55 IS: May I perhaps come in with a concrete example. I think we can possibly come together on that. If I stand on a high – a concrete fact – on a high springboard over a swimming pool and I cannot swim and I am told just jump in and relax completely, the water will carry you. This is perfectly true, I can do it. There is nothing that prevents me except that I am frightened of doing it. That is I think the point in question. And therefore this is I think the question. Of course we can all see, there’s no difficulty but there is this basic fear which does not stand to reason that makes us shy away. | 1:25:55 施：我举个具体例子好吗？ 我认为我们可能会就此 达成一致。 比方说，我站在高处 ——这是具体事实—— 我站在高高的跳板上跳水， 而我不会游泳， 人家说只管跳就行， 完全放松， 水会把你托起来。 这一点不假，我能做到。 没有什么阻止我， 只是我害怕往下跳。 我认为这就是问题所在。 我认为就是这个问题。 当然我们都可以看到， 没有什么困难， 但我们有一种基本的恐惧， 使我们说不清楚 我们为什么回避事实。 |
| 1:26:47 K: Please forgive me, I am not talking of that, we are not saying that. If one realises that one is greedy, why do we invent non-greed? | 1:26:47 克：对不起， 我谈的不是那个， 我们没有谈那个问题。 人意识到自己很贪婪， 为什么要虚构出非贪婪呢？ |
| 1:27:13 IS: I wouldn’t know because it seems to me so obvious that if I am greedy, then I am greedy. | 1:27:13 施：我不知道， 在我看来，这很明显， 如果我贪婪，那我就是很贪婪。 |
| 1:27:18 K: Now why do we have the opposite? Why? All religions say we mustn’t be greedy, all philosophers if they are worth their salt, they say don’t be greedy, or something else. Or if you are greedy, you will not reach heaven. So they have always cultivated through tradition, through saints, the whole gamut of it, cultivated this idea – the opposite. Right? So I don’t accept that. I say that is an escape from this. | 1:27:18 克：我们为什么制造对立面呢？ 为什么？ 所有宗教都要求 不能贪婪， 所有哲学家， 如果他们称职的话， 他们都讲不要贪婪 之类的话。 或者说，你要是贪婪， 就上不了天堂。 所以他们一直 利用传统、圣人， 整个这套东西， 来培养这种对立观念。 对吗？ 所以我不接受这点。 我说这是一种逃避。 |
| 1:28:06 IS: Which it is. It is a half way stage at best. | 1:28:06 施：确实如此。 顶多走到半路。 |
| 1:28:11 K: It is an escape from this. Right? And it won’t solve this problem. | 1:28:11 克：这是逃避。 对吗？ 解决不了这个问题。 |
| 1:28:16 IS: It hasn’t solved. | 1:28:16 施：没有解决。 |
| 1:28:18 K: It hasn’t. So to deal with the problem, remove that. I can’t have one foot there and one foot here. I must have both my feet here. | 1:28:18 克：没有。 因此，要处理这个问题， 就不要逃避。 我不能脚踩两只船。 我必须双脚都站在这儿。 |
| 1:28:34 IS: And if both my feet are here? | 1:28:34 施：双脚都在这儿，然后？ |
| 1:28:37 K: Wait, no. A simile, a simile. So I have no opposite, which implies time, progress, practice, trying, becoming, the whole gamut of it. | 1:28:37 克：等等，不。一个比喻而已。 所以我没有对立面， 也就是时间、进步、 练习、尝试、成为， 等等这套东西。 |
| 1:28:52 IS: So I see I am greedy, or I am violent. | 1:28:52 施：于是我看到 我很贪婪、很暴力。 |
| 1:28:59 K: So that requires now we have to go into something entirely different. | 1:28:59 克：所以这要求 我们现在必须 探询一些完全不同的问题。 |
| 1:29:04 IS: And then what? | 1:29:04 施：然后呢？ |
| 1:29:08 K: How is one, a human being – not ‘how’ – can a human being be free of greed now? That’s the question. Not eventually. You see, I am not interested in being greedy next life – who cares! – or the day after tomorrow, I am not interested in it, I want to be free of sorrow, pain, now. So I have no ideals at all. Right, sir? Then I have only this fact, I am greedy. Now, do we go into that? What is greed? The very word is condemnatory. Right, sir? The word has been in my mind for centuries, and that word ‘greed’ immediately condemns the fact. 1:30:21 By saying ‘I am greedy’ I have already condemned it. Right? Now can I look at that fact without the word with all its intimations, all its content, with its tradition? Look at it. You cannot understand the depth and the feeling of greed or be free of it if you are caught in words. So as my whole being is concerned with greed, it says, ‘All right, I won’t be caught in it, I won’t use the word 'greed'’. Right? Now, is that feeling devoid of the word, divorced from the word ‘greed’? | 1:29:08 克：一个人如何 ——不是“如何”—— 一个人能否现在就摆脱贪婪？ 就是这个问题。 不是等到最后。 你看，我不关心下辈子 贪不贪婪 ——谁在乎呢！ —— 或者后天怎样， 我不感兴趣， 我想摆脱 悲伤、痛苦，现在。 所以我根本没有理想。 对吧，先生？ 那我面对的就只有这个事实： 我很贪婪。 现在，我们讨论这个吗？ 什么是贪婪？ 这个 词本身有谴责的味道。 对吧，先生？ 几百年来这个词 一直在我脑子里， “贪婪”这个词 会立即谴责这一事实。 1:30:21 我说“我贪婪”， 就已经谴责了贪婪。 对吗？ 现在我能看着这个事实， 不受这个词及其所有暗示、 内容影响，不受 它包含的传统影响呢？ 看着它。 你无法深入理解、感受贪婪， 也无法摆脱贪婪， 如果你受言辞束缚的话。 因此，我的整个存在都 在关注贪婪，它说： “好吧，我不想受语言束缚， 我不想用‘贪婪’这个字眼”。 对吗？ 现在，这种感觉 是不是完全没有这个词， 完全脱离了“贪婪”这个词呢？ |
| 1:31:30 IS: No, it isn’t. | 1:31:30 施：不，没有。 |
| 1:31:35 WR: It has no word. | 1:31:35 拉：没有任何文字。 |
| 1:31:40 K: No, no. | 1:31:40 克：不，不。 |
| 1:31:45 IS: Please go on. | 1:31:45 伊：请接着说。 |
| 1:31:51 K: So, as my mind is full of words and caught in words, can it look at something, greed, without the word? | 1:31:51 克：那么， 我的脑子里装满了文字 并困于文字， 它能否不利用文字，直接 去看某些东西，比如贪婪呢？ |
| 1:32:11 WR: That is really seeing the fact. | 1:32:11 拉：这是真正看到事实。 |
| 1:32:14 K: Then only I see the fact. Then only I see the fact. | 1:32:14 克：只有那时我才会看到事实。 只有那时我才会看到事实。 |
| 1:32:19 WR: Yes, without the word. | 1:32:19 拉：是的，不用文字。 |
| 1:32:21 K: Therefore it has no value. Finished! This is where the difficulty lies, sir. I want to be free of greed because it is in my blood, my tradition, my upbringing, education, everything says be free of that ugly thing. So I am all the time making an effort to be free of that. Right? I am not educated, thank god, on those lines. So I say, all right, I have only fact, the fact is I am greedy. Right? I want to understand the nature and the structure of that word, of that feeling. What is it? What is the nature of that feeling? Is it a remembrance? You understand, sir? If it is a remembrance, I am looking at it, the present greed, with past remembrances. The past remembrances have said condemn it. Can I look at it without past remembrances? | 1:32:21 克：所以文字毫无价值。 没什么好说的了！ 这就是困难所在，先生。 我想要摆脱贪婪， 因为它存在于我的血液、 我的传统、 我的成长、教育中， 一切都说要摆脱 那个丑陋的东西。 所以我一直在 努力摆脱贪婪。 对吗？ 谢天谢地， 我没受过这方面教育。 所以我说，好吧， 我只有事实， 事实是我很贪婪。 对吗？ 我想了解那个词、 那种感觉的 本质和结构。 什么是贪婪？ 这种感觉的本质是什么？ 是记忆吗？ 你明白吗，先生？ 如果是记忆， 我正在以过去的记忆看着它， 看着现在的贪婪。 过去的记忆 已经在谴责贪婪。 我能不用过去的 记忆去看它吗？ |
| 1:34:05 WR: Exactly. | 1:34:05 拉：没错。 |
| 1:34:10 K: I am going to show you. Right, sir? | 1:34:10 克：我会告诉你。 对吧，先生？ |
| 1:34:15 WR: Yes, if you can see without – yes. | 1:34:15 拉：是的，如果你能 看而不用……是的。 |
| 1:34:18 K: I’ll show you, go into it a little more because the past remembrance condemns this and therefore strengthens this. Right? If it is something new, I won’t condemn it. But because it is new but made old by remembrances, by memories, by experience, I condemn it. So can I look at it without the word, without the association of words? That doesn’t need discipline, that doesn’t need practice, that doesn’t need some guide, just to say, look, can I look at it without the word? 1:35:25 Can I look at that tree, woman, man, sky, heaven, bird, without the word and find out? But someone comes along and tells me, ‘I’ll show you how to do it’, then I’m lost. I don’t know... And ‘how to do it’ is the whole sacred books. Sorry. All the gurus, all the bishops, the popes, the whole gang, the whole cahoot of it. So, do we stop now? | 1:34:18 克：我会告诉你， 再稍微探询一下， 过去的记忆 谴责这种贪婪， 因而也会强化贪婪。 对吗？ 如果这是新事物， 我就不会谴责它。 然而，它虽然是新的， 却让回忆、 记忆、经验弄成旧的了， 所以我就谴责它。 那么我可以不使用文字、 不用文字联想，直接去看吗？ 那不需要纪律， 不需要练习， 不需要任何指导， 就是看， 我可以不用语言去看吗？ 1:35:25 我能否看那棵树、 看女人、男人，看天、看鸟儿， 不使用语言，并弄个清楚呢？ 但有人走过来 告诉我， “我告诉你怎么做”， 那我就迷失了。 我不知道 所有圣书讲的都是“怎样做”。 对不起。 所有古鲁， 所有主教、教皇、 整个帮派、 整个团伙。 那我们现在停下好吗？ |
| 1:36:11 GN: Yes, sir, I think we stop now. | 1:36:11 纳：好，先生，我们现在停下。 |
| 1:36:14 K: By Jove, we have been talking an hour and a half. | 1:36:14 克：天哪，我们谈了 一个半小时。 |
| 1:36:19 WR: It depends on you. I am very much interested, I am not tired at all. | 1:36:19 拉：这取决于你。 我很感兴趣， 一点也不累。 |
| 1:36:25 K: We had better keep it for tomorrow morning and tomorrow afternoon. Don’t let’s overeat! | 1:36:25 克：我们最好留到明天上午 和明天下午。 我们不能贪多！ |
| 1:36:34 WR: There are several other things that I would like to ask you tomorrow morning and afternoon. |
1:36:34
拉：明天上午、下午我还有 几个问题想问您。
克：好的，先生。 我们讨论一下。 |
| 1:36:39 K: Yes, sir. We’ll go into it. |
1:36:39
克：好的，先生。 我们讨论一下。 |
