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BR78D1 - 你能觉察到自我的结构吗？
第一次公开对话
英国布洛克伍德公园
1978年8月29日



0:38 K: This is supposed to be a discussion or a dialogue a dialogue being a conversation between two people. And as that is impossible to have a conversation with two people including so many perhaps we could take a problem which may affect all of us and discuss it as though it were between two people. Or we could turn this into a question and answer meeting. So which would you like? Discussion generally ends up in an argument which would be rather futile offering one opinion against another one judgement against another and so on. But whereas a dialogue a conversation between two people who are friends who are concerned about a problem which is mutual and perhaps they can talk over their problems deeply quietly, seriously and with a sense of humour. Or we could turn this into a question and answer meeting. There too, again, what kind of question one asks who is asking, what is the purpose of asking and who is going to answer the question and so on - all that is involved in all this. So which would you like, or think it proper to either question, dialogue or discussion? 克：这应该是一场讨论 或一次对话， 对话就是两个人之间的交谈。 而既然不可能 同时与这么多人交谈， 也许我们能选取一个 可以影响我们所有人的问题， 并且就像在两个人之间那样去讨论。 或者我们把这变成一个问答会。 那你们喜欢哪种方式？ 讨论 通常会以争论结束， 那显然是徒劳无益的， 提出彼此相反的观点、 彼此相反的判断，等等。 但两个朋友之间的 一次对话、 一场交谈， 两人共同关心一个问题， 那么也许他们对问题的探讨就能深入、 平静、认真，而又带着一种幽默感。 或者我们可以把这变成一个问答会。 那就还会涉及到：大家要提哪类问题， 谁提问，提问的目的是什么， 以及谁来回答问题， 等等——所有这些都会牵涉其中。 所以你们喜欢哪一种，或者认为哪种更合适， 提问、对话还是讨论？
3:04 Q: Dialogue. 问：对话。
3:09 K: If it is to be a dialogue what shall we talk about remembering a dialogue is between two people a conversation amicable, easy, quiet and penetrating? So what shall we talk over together? 克：如果进行对话， 那我们要讨论什么呢？ 记着对话是在两个人之间进行的 友善、从容、安静并且有穿透力的交谈。 那么我们一起来讨论什么呢？
3:43 Q: Sir, I would like to ask a question, not necessarily a dialogue. You were saying yesterday that the chaos and the violence in the world is a result of our everyday lives. But I don't think it is easy as all that. If you take the spectrum, at one end of the spectrum you put Hitler and at the other end of the spectrum you put a person like Schweitzer then you have two people who are doing something quite different: one person is trying to help humanity and the other person is trying to destroy humanity. Now if you leave that aside for a moment: take any one person in this tent give them the right environment, the right job they are free of conflict, they are not hooked on religion or dope and they get cancer. Now the conventional religious view would say that it is an act of god, which is obviously crackers. But you could say this person has a disposition towards a disease. Now it does appear to me that in the world today there are people who are definitely for the forces of good and those for the forces of destruction. 问：先生，我想问个问题，不用进行一场对话。 昨天我们说到 世界上的混乱和暴力是我们的日常生活所导致的。 但我不认为有那么简单。 如果你进行频谱分析，在频谱的一端 你放上希特勒，而在频谱的另一端 你放上像施韦泽这样的一个人， 那么你就有了两个做完全不同事情的人： 一个尽力去帮助人类， 而另外一个尽力去破坏人类。 现在如果你暂时把这个放一边： 拿这个帐篷里的任何一个人为例， 给他们正确的环境、正确的工作， 他们没有冲突，他们不依赖宗教 也不吸毒，但患上了癌症。 那么传统的宗教观点会说 这是神的作为，这种说法显然是胡说八道。 但你可以说这个人 有一种致病的倾向。 而在我看来，当今的世界中 确实有人明确趋向善的力量， 而有些人则趋向破坏的力量。
4:54 K: The gentleman asks why do you say the world is in chaos because we are in chaos, each one of us: uncertain, argumentative, greedy, selfish, violent which perhaps may project in the world bearing in mind that we are the world we are not different from the world. And there are good people, the questioner says and there are some bad people, bad guys and good guys and would it be erroneous on your part to say that because we live in our own particular individual lives rather violent, ugly and so on, that maybe quite inaccurate. That's right, sir? 克：这位先生问为什么你说世界处于混乱之中， 那是因为我们处于混乱中，我们每个人都： 不确定、好争辩、贪婪、自私、暴力， 这可能会投射到世界中， 记着我们就是世界， 我们与世界并没有什么不同。 而那位提问者说，世界上有好人， 也有坏人，坏家伙和好家伙， 所以，你的说法会不会是错误的， 说因为我们各自过着自己特定的个人生活， 相当的暴力、丑恶，等等，这个说法也许非常不准确。 是这样吧，先生？
6:06 What other questions would you like to discuss, talk over? 你们还有其他问题要讨论、探讨吗？
6:10 Q: I would like to ask a question, if I may. I was churning over in my mind what you said yesterday about registering memories. And what concerned me was if you were to ask me a question if I was to totally experience what you were saying to me that at the end of the question if I had totally experienced it that I wouldn't know that you had asked me a question in order to be able to answer it. And what I would like to ask you is: is it possible that we have two parts to our communication which are the two hemispheres of the brain one which only receives and which totally registers all the time and the other part which transmits which in fact we need not register because if we experience that we need not register it. Is it possible that - my mind has gone a blank now, sorry. (Laughter) When we receive we are not able to blot out that memory that it is there totally and that in fact it is our choice whether we use one side of the brain or the other and to what extent we use each side of the brain. 问：请允许我提一个问题。 我反复思考你昨天说的 关于记录回忆的那些话。 我关心的是， 如果你问我一个问题， 如果我要完全体会到你对我所说的话， 在问题结束时 如果我完全体会到了， 我不会认为你问我某个问题 是为了能够回答它。 而我想问你的是： 有没有可能是这样的：我们的交流有两个部分， 对应大脑的两个半球， 一个部分只接收并且一直在记录， 另一部分则进行传输， 而事实上我们不需要记录， 因为如果我们体验到那些，我们就不需要记录。 有没有可能——对不起，我的脑子现在一片空白。（笑声） 当我们接收的时候，我们无法清除那个记忆， 它全部都在那儿，而且事实上 使用大脑的这一侧还是另一侧，以及 对每一侧的使用程度是我们自己的选择。
7:36 K: The questioner says there are two spheres in our brain one that is receiving, registering, memorising and the other part, perhaps the other part which is more free, which is not conditioned and therefore there is this duality going on in us. And memory, remembrance of a particular of this sphere is necessary. That is his question. 克：提问者说我们的大脑有两个半球， 一边是接收、记录、记忆， 而另一边，可能这另一边 更自由，没有被制约， 所以我们身上存在着这种二元性。 而这半球对特定事件的记忆是必要的。 这是他的问题。
8:20 Any other question? 还有其他问题吗？
8:22 Q: Yes, would you please talk about the problem that arises when the intensity of one's feelings and emotions block one's awareness of thought. 问：有，请你谈谈当一个人的感受和 情绪的强度阻碍了他 对思想的觉察时会产生的问题。
8:37 K: When one's emotions and sentiments and reactions which are intense and strong, block a perception, what is one to do? 克：当一个人的情绪、感受和反应 非常强烈，阻碍了觉察，该怎么办？
8:57 Q: I understood that meditation is a way of life all day so you think there is no need to sit down in lotus position at certain times. That is one thing. And the other thing is when we return from here and we are all alone in a crowd where do we find the strength to keep on? I feel lost.

K: Yes. Is it necessary to sit in a certain posture lotus posture introduced from India and the East is it necessary to sit that way to meditate? And is it necessary to set aside a certain part of the day to have - daydreams! (Laughter) 		问：依我的理解，冥想是一种全天的生活方式， 所以你认为没有必要在某些时候打坐。 这是一方面。 而另一方面，当我们从这儿回去， 当我们身处人群而又完全孤立， 从哪儿才能找到继续生活的勇气呢？ 我感觉很迷茫。

克：噢。 有没有必要采用某个特定的坐姿， 莲花姿势来自印度和东方， 有没有必要以那种方式坐着冥想呢？ 并且有没有必要留出一天中的特定时段 去做——白日梦！（笑声）
9:48 Q: No, to breathing. 问：不，是去呼吸。
9:51 K: I understand (laughs), I was only joking. And how is one to have, when one leaves here to have the strength to face all one's solitude loneliness, all the travail of life. That is the question.

Q: To keep on this way of life. 		克：我知道（笑），我只是开个玩笑。 并且当一个人离开这儿时，他怎样才能 拥有力量去面对他所有的孤独、 寂寞、生活的所有艰辛。 这是刚才的问题。

问：去继续这种生活方式。
10:21 K: Yes. 克：嗯。
10:25 Q: Do you see any relation between the awareness and trust, faith? 问：你认为觉知和信任、信仰之间有任何联系吗？
10:35 K: Faith? Oh, do you see any difference between otherness and faith. I don't know what it is about - doesn't matter. 克：信仰？ 噢，你认为信仰与他性之间有没有什么区别。 我不知道那是什么意思——没关系。
10:44 Q: Awareness. 问：觉知。
10:56 Q: Relationship between faith and awareness. 问：信仰与觉知的关系。
11:02 K: That's the correct - sir, sorry. What is the relationship between awareness and faith. Yes sir? 克：对吗——抱歉，先生。 觉知和信仰之间的关系是什么。 对吗，先生？
11:15 Q: I would very much like to ask a question connected with the first question. This is that one can see fairly clearly that one's own psychological pain the pain in the world as a whole is caused by us, a projection. But it seems that there is pain in the universe as a whole not caused by human beings. The sort of thing I refer to is the the genetic imperfection perhaps with children being born with frightful diseases which one cannot put to human beings. In other words a slightly imperfect universe which causes pain. This is quite a problem when we think about it. 问：我非常想问一个 与第一个问题有关的问题。 就是我能非常清楚地看到 自身的心理痛苦， 世界上的痛苦从整体上来看是我们造成的，是一种投射。 但似乎宇宙中有一种痛苦， 从整体上看并不是人类造成的。 我所说的那类事情指的是 生来就患有重病的 儿童的基因缺陷 也许无法怪罪于人类。 换句话说，是一个有轻微缺陷的宇宙导致了痛苦。 当我们考虑这点的时候，这是个非常大的问题。
12:02 K: If I understood the question rightly may I put it in my own words, sir to see that we understand each other? That there is not only individual suffering each person suffers in different ways but also there seems to be a universal suffering a global suffering - children are born deformed mentally retarded and so on, so on. 克：如果我正确理解了这个问题， 请允许我用自己的话说一遍，先生， 以确保我们理解了对方的意思，好吗？ 也就是说，不仅存在个体的苦难， 每个人以不同的方式受苦， 而且似乎存在一种普遍的痛苦， 一种全球性的苦难——儿童生下来就畸形、 智力迟钝，等等，等等。
12:35 Now just a minute please - which of these questions do you want to discuss? Which is, first, the question that gentleman asked: you may be in error when you say that because we live in chaos and uncertainty and violence and so we create a world that is chaotic violent and so on, that may be a wrong question. Are you exact in saying that? I have reduced it to a small thing, sir. And the other question is: do we have to sit in meditation in a particular posture lotus as it is called in India and it is brought over into this country. And the other is, your question emotions and sentiments which are intense come in the way of observation, clarity and awareness. And the other question is: what is the relationship between awareness and faith? And that question that gentleman put, which is: there is not only human, particular human suffering but there is global, universal suffering. Now which of these questions? 现在请稍微等一下——这些问题你们想讨论哪一个？ 首先是那位先生的问题： 你也许错了，如果你说 因为我们生活在混乱、不确定和暴力中， 所以我们制造了一个混乱、暴力等等的世界， 那也许是一个错误的问题。 你确实是这么说的吗？ 我把它简化成了一个很小的问题，先生。 而第二个问题是： 我们在冥想中是否要以某个特别的姿势坐着， 比如在印度被称为莲花坐， 并且被引进到了这个国家。 另外一个是你的问题， 强烈的情绪和感受 阻挡了观察、清晰和觉知。 还有一个问题： 觉知和信仰之间的关系是什么？ 而那位先生提出的问题是： 不仅存在个人的、特定的痛苦， 而且存在全球性的普遍的苦难。 那么讨论哪个问题呢？
14:25 Q: What about loneliness? 问：讨论孤独怎么样？
14:28 K: Nobody asked about loneliness, I introduced it. 克：没有人问孤独的问题，我介绍过了。
14:34 Q: The question about registration, the two sides of the brain. 问：关于记录的问题，大脑的两边。
14:39 K: Oh, yes, I beg your pardon - quite right. 克：噢，对，非常抱歉——没错。
14:43 Q: Sir, one more question.

K: Wait a minute sir. Let me That gentleman asked that perhaps two spheres in the brain one that registers, remembers, accumulates knowledge experience, cultivates memory and so on the other part may be unconditioned. What is the relationship between the two? That is right sir? Now no more questions. 		问：先生，还有一个问题。

克：请稍等，先生。 请让我 那位先生问的是，也许大脑的两个半球， 一个进行记录、记忆，积累知识、 经验、培养记忆等等， 另外一部分也许没有被制约。 两者的关系是什么？ 对吧，先生？ 好了，没有别的问题了。
15:20 Q: One more question. What is the source of urgency, energy to go into all these questions? 问：还有一个问题。 深入所有这些问题的紧迫感和能量的来源是什么？
15:31 K: What is the source, the drive, the push, the pressure why should one be interested in all these things? 克：来源、动力、驱动力、压力是什么， 为什么一个人要对所有这些事情感兴趣？
15:46 Q: And sir, what is the beginning of memory and is there a point in time when the mind sees the age of a problem? 问：还有，先生，记忆的起点是什么， 是否存在一个时间点， 此时头脑能看到问题的年纪？
15:55 K: What is the beginning of memory and what is 克：记忆的起点是什么，并且什么是
15:58 Q: Is there a point in time when the mind sees the age of a problem, like fear being older than jealousy? 问：是否存在一个时间点，此时头脑 能看到问题的年纪，比如恐惧比嫉妒更古老？
16:08 K: I don't quite understand. 克：我不太明白。
16:10 Q: I can see fear is older than jealousy. There are times when I can see the age of a problem. It is a rather serious question about reincarnation. 问：我能看到恐惧比嫉妒更古老。 有时我能看到一个问题的年纪。 这是一个非常严肃的关于转世的问题。
16:24 K: Ah, you want to discuss reincarnation. Now which of these questions would you like to talk over together? 克：啊，你想讨论转世。 现在，你们想一起来讨论这些问题中的哪一个？
16:33 Q: Global suffering.

Q: Emotions. 		问：全球苦难。

问：情绪。
16:37 K: You decide. (Laughter) 克：你们来决定。（笑声）
16:42 Q: Emotions. 问：情绪。
16:44 Q: The use of energy.

Q: Reincarnation. 		问：能量的使用。

问：转世。
16:48 Q: Krishnaji, could you deal with them all in some way by answering one question? (Laughter) 问：克里希那吉，你能不能只回答其中的一个问题， 但实际上把所有这些问题都涉及到呢？（笑声）
16:59 K: The questioner asks: could you include all these questions in one question, in one statement? Perhaps we could, and that 克：这位提问者问： 你能不能用一个问题、一个说法把所有这些问题一举囊括在内？ 也许我们能做到，并且
17:18 Q: You said that you should forget the past and 问：你说过应该忘记过去，并且
17:23 K: I never said we could forget the past sir. 克：我从来没有说过我们能忘记过去，先生。
17:25 Q: You should forget the past, you said it the day before yesterday. 问：你应该忘记过去，你前天说过。
17:28 K: No, I did not. 克：不，我没说。
17:29 Q: When you have got suffering you have got injured finger or that comes in your memory it's memorising and the past is difficult to forget, you see. I want to know how we can forget the past. 问：当你遭受了痛苦，你的手指受伤了或者 痛苦进入你的记忆， 把它记下来， 而且过去很难忘掉，你知道的。 我想知道我们怎么才能忘记过去。
17:46 K: I did not forgive me for contradicting you sir but I did not say forget the past. You can't forget the past. We will go into all this by taking one question which perhaps will include all others. Shall we take? Now which shall it be? Just think it out sir. Look we have had several problems put to us and the gentleman suggests that we should perhaps by investigating one question one statement, we could perhaps include all the others. I think that it could be done. But which shall we take which will include all the others? 克：先生，我实在不愿反驳你， 但我没有说忘记过去。 你无法忘记过去。 我们将通过选取一个问题来深入所有这些问题， 这个问题也许包含了其他所有问题。 好吗？ 那么，选哪个呢？ 好好想想，先生。 瞧，我们提出了几个问题， 而那位先生建议我们应该 通过探讨一个问题、 一个说法，就能把其他问题都包含进去。 我认为能做到。 但我们选哪个问题呢，哪一个能包含其他所有问题呢？
18:33 Q: Emotions. 问：情绪。
18:34 K: Just take a second sir. Take just a second. Let's find out. Which question would include all the others? 克：再考虑一下，先生。 再花点儿时间。我们把它找出来。 哪个问题能包含其他所有问题？
18:44 Q: Where do all these questions come from? 问：这些问题都是从哪儿来的？
18:47 Q: We ask where is the thrust of all these questions. 问：我们问，所有这些问题的推动力来自哪里？
18:51 K: What is the source of all these questions. 克：所有这些问题的来源是什么。
18:54 Q: The source of this is the energy which asks the questions. 问：来源就是提出问题的那个能量。
18:59 K: Is that what you are asking, interested in the source of the energy that asks all these questions? 克：你是不是问，你感兴趣的是不是 提出所有这些问题的能量的来源？
19:07 Q: No. 问：不是。
19:08 Q: Could you answer the question: what is insight and by what process does it come about? 问：你能不能解答这个问题：什么是洞察， 洞察通过什么过程到来？
19:14 K: Sir, look there are so many. 克：先生你看，已经有这么多问题了。
19:19 Q: The registration in the mind. 问：头脑中的记录。
19:23 Q: You decide, or we are never going to start. (Laughter) 问：你来决定，否则我们永远不会开始。（笑声）
19:30 K: You are quite right. (Laughter) Could we take up the relationship between awareness faith and emotions, meditation and what is the need of a brain that it should register at all not the two, but the necessity of registering at all. Could we, by taking one question, would that I think we could do it I suggest this, I am not saying it must be that way I suggest that we discuss what is relationship which would include all these. What is the relationship between awareness, faith, meditation the registration, the global suffering of man in which is included the suffering of each one of us. Right? 克：完全正确。（笑声） 我们能不能选觉知与信仰、情绪、 冥想的关系， 以及大脑究竟有什么必要 进行记录， 不是两个半球的问题，而是究竟有没有记录的必要。 我们能否通过探讨一个问题， 我认为我们可以这么做， 我建议这样，不是说我们必须这样， 我建议我们讨论“有什么关系”那个问题， 这个问题能包含其他所有问题。 觉知、信仰、冥想、记录、人类的全球性苦难 之间的关系是什么， 那种苦难包含了我们每个人的痛苦。 对吗?
20:52 Q: And the registration.

K: And registration - I said that. 		问：还有记录。

克：还有记录——我说过了。
20:59 Now, shall we begin by talking about registration and relate that to awareness and to the intensity of our emotions and so on? Right? So we will begin, if we may, if please correct me, I am not the Delphic Oracle if you think we should discuss something else we are willing but let us begin by asking: what is the need of a human mind, brain to register anything at all? First of all, are we aware, know, cognisant of this registering process going on? You understand? I am just beginning with that. Do you, as a human being know, or aware that you are registering? You understand my question? Or you have accepted the statement and then you proceed to question the statement? Are you aware that you register certain things? An unhappy incident of yesterday is registered. Are you aware of this registering process going on? Or you are merely accepting a statement by somebody else? You see the difference? If I accept a statement that you have made and question about that statement, which is one thing whereas if I am aware that I am registering then my question has a different quality to it. Right? So which is it we are doing now? Are we aware that we are registering? Are you aware now, sitting there that you are registering what is being said which means that you are actually listening to what is being said. Right? Are you? Or are you still concerned about why the need for registration? You see the difference? 那么，我们能不能从讨论记录开始， 把它与觉察、 与我们情绪的强度等联系起来？ 好吗？ 这样我们就开始了，如果可以的话，如果 请纠正我，我不是宣布德尔菲神谕， 如果你认为我们应该讨论我们乐意讨论的其他问题的话。 但让我们先从这个问题开始： 究竟人的头脑、大脑有什么必要进行记录？ 首先，我们有没有觉察到、意识到、认识到 这个记录过程正在进行？ 你明白吗？我就从这里开始。 作为一个人，你是不是 知道或觉察到你正在记录？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 或者你已经接受了这个说法， 然后你要质疑这种说法？ 你觉察到你在记录某些事情吗？ 昨天发生的一件不愉快的事情被记录了下来。 你有没有意识到这种记录过程正在发生？ 或者你仅仅是接受了别人的说法？ 你看到其中的区别了吗？ 如果我接受了你做的一个论断， 并质疑那个论断，是一回事， 然而如果我觉察到我在记录， 那么我的问题在这里就有了一种不同的品质。 对吗？ 那么，我们做的是其中的哪一种呢？ 我们觉察到我们在记录吗？ 你现在有没有觉察到你坐在那儿的时候 正在记录我说的话？ 那意味着你确实在听所讲的话。 对吗？你是在这么做吗？ 或者，你是不是还关心为什么需要记录？ 你看到两者的区别了吗？
24:03 Can we proceed this way, slowly? 我们以这种方式进行下去，慢慢地，好吗？
24:15 Q: Sir, one is aware that one holds on to what is being said. 问：先生，我发觉自己紧紧抓住你讲的话不放。
24:18 K: Yes, that is it. One is aware that one holds to what is being said. Now why does one hold on to what is being said? When the speaker says there is no speaker you are listening to yourself you are investigating yourself why do you hold on to a statement made by this person? which means you are not actually listening to yourself. 克：是的，就是那样。 你意识到自己在抓住所讲的话。 那么，为什么你要紧紧抓住所讲的话？ 讲话者说，讲话者并不存在， 你要聆听你自己， 你要研究你自己， 为什么你要抓住这个人所做的陈述呢？ 那意味着你实际上并没有在聆听自己。
24:58 Q: Sir, you want to act on it. 问：先生，你想按照所说的话去行动。
25:01 K: No, no, which means You see the difference sir? If you are told you are hungry, that is one thing but if you are really hungry that is another. Obviously, right? So which is it? Are you really hungry or you are told you are hungry? Which means, are you aware that you are registering holding on to a statement to a phrase, to some conclusion, to an idea and so on which is registration going on? Right sir? Now why do you want to register what is being said? Because the speaker must have either a reputation or you think he knows something more than you do or you are expecting him to solve your problems so you are depending on another. The other says 'Please, don't depend on anybody, including the speaker' You follow? 克：不，不是，那意味着……你明白其中的区别吗，先生？ 如果别人告诉你你饿了，那是一回事， 而如果你确实饿了，那是另外一回事。 很明显，对吗？ 那么是哪种情况呢？ 你是确实饿了还是你被告知你饿了？ 就是说，你有没有意识到你在记录、 在抓住某句话、 某个词、某个结论、某个想法等等， 也就是在进行记录？对吗，先生？ 那么，为什么你想去记录别人说的话呢？ 因为讲话者必然要么有某种声望， 要么你认为他知道的比你多， 要么你期望他解决你的问题， 所以你在依靠别人。 这个人说： “请不要依靠任何人，包括那个讲话者。” 你明白吗？
26:28 So, let us be clear in this matter. Are you aware of the whole momentum, the movement of registration? I mean, you can see a tape recorder registering. Right? Are you similarly aware that you are recording? Or you have been told that you are recording. See the difference? If you are told that you are recording that is one thing it has no value, it is just like a tape you can wipe it out and a new tape can be put in whereas if you discover for yourself that you are registering and ask the question: 'Why am I registering what is the necessity of any kind of registration?' Then we can proceed then we can communicate with each other. But if you are saying, well you said that yesterday about registration I am awfully interested in this idea, let's talk about it. Then it remains merely at the verbal level, it has no meaning. At least for me, it has no meaning whatsoever. Whereas if you say 'I want to find this out, why I register' can we go along that way?

Q: Yes. 		那么，让我们弄清楚这件事情。 你有没有觉察到记录的整个动力和活动过程？ 我的意思是，你能看到一台录音机在记录。 对吗？ 类似地，你觉察到你在记录吗？ 还是别人告诉你你在记录。 看到区别了吗？ 如果你被告知你在记录，那是一回事， 那没有价值，就像一个磁带， 你能抹掉记录并且换上新磁带， 然而如果你亲自发现 你在记录，并问： “我为什么记录， 有什么必要做任何记录呢？” 那么我们就能接着进行下去， 那么我们就能相互交流。 但如果你说，哦， 你昨天谈到过记录， 我对这个想法非常感兴趣，我们来讨论一下。 那么，那就只是停留在语言的层面上，没有什么意义。 至少对我而言，那没有任何意义。 然而如果你说： “我想搞清楚这件事情，我为什么记录，” 我们就能沿着这条路走下去，好吗？

问：好的。
28:03 K: Why do you register, if you are aware of it? Obviously you register when something is dangerous. Right? A precipice, a snake, a dangerous animal, or a dangerous man or a motor coming hurtling towards you, it is danger. You immediately register it, in order to protect. And also you register when there is pleasure. So this process is going on all the time. The registration of everything that is dangerous. Right? And everything that gives one a great pleasure. One can say the registration began with the first man the cave man, however they lived. You can see there they had to register danger otherwise they would be destroyed. So let's find out what is dangerous for us to register and then we can go on to the other. What are the most dangerous things in life that should be registered? Not depending on individual opinions. I wonder if I am making myself clear. 克：如果你意识到了你在记录，那么你为什么记录呢？ 显然，当事情危急的时候你会记录。 对吗？ 一个悬崖、一条蛇、一个危险的动物或一个危险的人， 或者一辆朝你飞驰而来的汽车，它很危险。 你马上记录它，以便保护自己。 而且快乐的时候你也记录。 所以，这个过程一直在进行。 记录所有危险的事情。 对吗？ 并且记录所有使人快乐的事情。 你可以说记录开始于人类的始祖， 洞穴人，不管他们怎么生存。 你能看到那时他们必须记录危险， 否则他们会遭到毁灭。 所以我们来弄清楚我们要记录什么样的危险， 然后我们就能进行另一个问题。 什么是生命中最危险的应该记录的事情？ 不要根据个人观点来看这个问题。 我想知道我是不是说清楚了。
29:49 Q: Yes. Yes. 问：是的，清楚了。
29:51 K: Because to me one thing may be most dangerous and to you, you say that is too silly. So it must be a common factor for a human being whose necessity is to register danger and therefore avoid. Right? Danger means avoiding, not going near it not touching it, not be involved in it. Right sir? So what is most dangerous for you, us human beings? 克：因为，对我来说有一件事情可能是最危险的， 而在你看来，你说那太愚蠢了。 所以，它必须是一个对人类来说很普遍的因素， 其必要性在于记录危险从而加以避免。 对吗？ 危险意味着避开而不是靠近， 不去接触，也不牵涉进去。 对吗，先生？ 那么，对你、对我们人类来说什么是最危险的？
30:35 Q: What disturbs the mind. 问：扰乱心灵的东西。
30:37 K: No, no. Physically. What is most dangerous? Not what disturbs your mind. You are going off into some - please begin at the lowest level. 克：不，不。身体方面的。 什么是最危险的？不是扰乱心灵的东西。 你偏离到了一些……——请从最低的层面开始。
30:47 Q: That is what disturbs me, that is most dangerous for me. 问：那是扰乱我的东西，那对我来说是最危险的。
30:50 K: You see that's what I was trying to avoid. What is most dangerous for me I said may be not so dangerous for another. So don't look, if I may suggest don't take yourself and say this is my particular danger. See the danger of what is dangerous for man. 克：你看，那是我要尽力避免的， 对我来说最危险的事情。 我说过，对另外一个人来说可能没有那么危险。 所以，不要去看——请允许我建议， 不要考虑你自己，说这对我来说是特别的危险。 而是看到对整个人类来说危险的东西。
31:13 Q: Physical threat. 问：身体上的威胁。
31:14 Q: Threat to survival. 问：生存威胁。
31:18 K: Yes, which is, non-survival. Not to survive. That means Sorry, I am putting it wrongly. The demand is to survive. Anything that destroys that survival is dangerous. Right? For all human beings, not for me or for you, for all of us. 克：是的，也就是，无法生存。 生存不下去。 那意味着……抱歉，我用词错误。 人基本的需要是生存下去。 任何破坏生存的东西都是危险的。 对吗？ 对整个人类来说，不仅对我或对你，对我们所有人都是这样。
31:47 Q: Why? 问：为什么？
31:50 K: Why? Why should we survive. 克：为什么？ 我们为什么要活下去。
31:56 Q: May I restate the question? What is more important than survival? 问：我可以重申一下问题吗？ 什么比生存更重要？
32:01 K: Wait sir, we will come to that slowly. 克：等一下先生，我们会慢慢谈到那点的。
32:03 Q: Sorry.

K: Come to it, sir. Survival, and the lady says why should we survive. No, it is a serious question. Why should we survive? What is the need for survival and this urgency the demand to exist, to survive, to live? Go on sirs, answer it. 		问：对不起。

克：会谈到的，先生。 生存，而那位女士说我们为什么要生存。 不，这是一个严肃的问题。 为什么我们要活下去？ 生存的需要、这种想要生存、想要活下去的 迫切需要是什么？ 加油，先生们，回答这个问题。
32:36 Q: Instinct. 问：本能。
32:40 K: Instinct. That is not it. The birds have the instinct to survive, the animals the reptiles, the most elemental you know everything demands survival. 克：本能。 不是这个。 鸟儿有生存的本能，动物、 爬行动物、最低级的动物， 你知道所有生物都要生存。
32:57 Q: Pleasure in life. 问：生活中的快乐。
33:01 Q: Fear of death. 问：对死亡的恐惧。
33:05 K: Fear. 克：恐惧。
33:07 Q: Because we think it is important to survive. 问：因为我们认为活下去很重要。
33:11 K: I don't see why you even ask that question: what is the necessity of survival. Here you are! If you hadn't demanded to survive you wouldn't be here and I wouldn't be here, none of us would be here not the parents would produce us, they wouldn't exist either. So the world wouldn't exist. So anything that is dangerous to survival we must register. Right? Physically a car coming towards us we jump out of the way. Right? So there must be some kind of registration to protect the organism. Right? To have a roof, to have clothes, to have food that's apparently natural in every living thing. And so we avoid anything that is dangerous. Right? 克：我不明白为什么你们竟然问那样的问题： 生存有什么必要性。 你就在这里啊！ 如果你不想生存下来，你就不会出现在这里， 我也不会在这儿，我们没有人会出现在这儿， 不是父母不会生下我们，是连他们也不会存在。 那么世界也不会存在。 所以任何对生存造成危险的事情我们都必须记录。 对吗？ 当一辆汽车冲向我们，我们会马上跳开。 对吗？ 所以必须进行某种记录以保护我们的有机体。 对吗？ 要有住的地方，要有衣服，要有食物， 那显然对每个生物来说都是自然而然的。 所以我们避开所有危险的事情。 对吗？
34:29 Let's go into it a little more. Is belief dangerous for physical survival? 让我们再深入一些。 信仰对身体的生存是危险的吗？
34:41 Q: Yes. 问：是的。
34:44 K: So you have no belief. 克：所以你没有信仰。
34:47 Q: I've a particular belief a conditioned belief which does not 问：我有个特别的信仰， 一个受制约的信仰并不会
34:52 K: I understand sir, I understand. I believe in something or in some idea, in some goal, and so on - a belief so I am asking each one of us, I am asking: is belief a danger to physical survival? 克：我理解，先生，我理解。 我相信某个东西， 或某个想法、某个目标，等等——一个信仰， 所以我要问我们每个人： 信仰对身体的生存是不是一种威胁？
35:12 Q: No.

Q: It may be. 		问：不是。

问：也许是。
35:14 Q: In Northern Ireland. 问：在北爱尔兰。
35:20 K: In Northern Ireland. 克：在北爱尔兰。
35:25 Q: Let's not get into politics right now please. 问：现在我们还不要涉及政治。
35:31 K: I know, that 克：我理解。
35:34 Q: A misguided conscience can be 问：一个被误导的良心可能是危险的。
35:39 K: No, no, no, please. I am taking belief, don't begin too many things at once. Take one factor, go after it step by step into it. Is belief a danger to survival? I believe in Catholicism and you are a Protestant I am a Catholic, we believe in different things. Look what is happening in Northern Ireland what is happening in the Middle East and so on and so on. For physical survival, apparently belief is a most dangerous thing. 克：不，不，拜托。 我现在以信仰为例，不要一次讨论太多事情。 选取一个因素，一步一步地深入进去。 信仰对生存是个威胁吗？ 我信仰天主教，而你是个新教教徒， 我是个天主教徒，我们信仰不同的东西。 看看北爱尔兰正在发生的事情、 中东正在发生的事情等等，等等。 对于身体的生存， 信仰显然是个危险的东西。
36:19 Q: Sir, could I ask: do we not need belief in technical matters? 问：先生，请问：我们在技术方面不需要信仰吗？
36:25 K: In technical matters, why do you even there have belief? You work, and you learn and you go on. No, just please, go into it for yourself don't question me, I can but find out if you have belief, any form of belief and doesn't that belief divide people? Belief can be a conclusion, a concept an opinion, strongly-held opinion. 克：你为什么连技术方面都需要信仰呢？ 你工作，你学习，你生活下去。 不需要信仰。请自己深入进去， 不要问我，我能搞清楚， 而是你自己去发现你有没有信仰，任何形式的信仰， 而且，不正是那个信仰让人们分裂的吗？ 信仰可以是一个结论、一个概念、 一个观点、一个强烈坚持的意见。
37:03 Q: Prejudice. 问：偏见。
37:06 K: All that, included. We can put a lot of these words together but let's find out if each one of us has a certain belief: that I am a Christian, that I am an Englishmen a Frenchman, or - you know, all the rest of it. Isn't that a tremendous danger for physical survival. 克：诸如此类的，都包含在内。 我们能搜罗很多这样的词， 但是我们得去发现我们每个人是不是 有某个信仰： 我是个基督教徒，我是个英国人、 法国人，或者——你知道，诸如此类。 难道对身体的生存来说那不是一个巨大的危险吗？
37:32 Q: Yes, sir. 问：是的，先生。
37:34 K: You say yes, sir, but are you free of it? 克：你说是的，先生，但你摆脱了它吗？
37:37 Q: No sir. (Laughter)

K: Ah, then 		问：没有，先生。（笑声）

克：啊，那么
37:51 Q: Belief in the good in every one of these beliefs. 问：这些信仰里都有对善的信仰。
37:55 K: So, I know. We teach in the school every one of these things. So history may be rewritten differently. 克：我知道。 我们在学校里教每个人这些东西。 所以历史可能会被改写。
38:06 Q: Surely belief is a good thing. 问：信仰确实是个好事情。
38:08 K: You are not really interested to find out for yourself. For god's sake, do listen! 克：你并不是真正有兴趣亲自去发现。 看在老天的份上，好好听一听！
38:15 Are you really serious to find out the necessity of registration and the inadequacy psychologically of any form of registration? We are discussing that. If you say belief is a danger then why do you hold on to it saying I am a Hindu, you are a Muslim or you are a Jew or you are a Communist - why do you hold on to these words? 你是不是真的认真，想要去搞清楚 记录的必要性， 以及心理上任何形式的记录是不是都是不当的？ 我们正在讨论这个。 如果你说信仰是个危险，那么为什么你要抓住它不放， 并且说，我是个印度教徒，而你是个穆斯林或者你是个犹太人， 或者你是个共产主义者——你为什么抓住这些话不放？
38:51 Q: Because perhaps one doesn't see it completely. 问：因为也许他并没有完全看清这一点。
38:56 K: So, the gentleman suggests you don't see this completely. The danger, you don't see completely the danger of any form of belief which is obviously non-fact. Why do you hold on to that? 克：那么这位先生认为你没有完全看清这点。 你没有完全看清那个危险， 任何形式的信仰都是危险，而信仰显然不是事实。 为什么你要紧紧抓住它？
39:16 Q: All belief is a support structure. 问：所有的信仰都是一个有支撑作用的结构。
39:23 K: Yes, belief is a support. If it is a dangerous support why don't you drop it? 克：是的，信仰是一种支撑。 如果它是一种危险的支撑，那么你为什么不丢掉它呢？
39:32 Q: I have dropped some, but I haven't seen 问：我丢掉了一些，但我没有看到
39:35 K: Ah! (Laughs) 克：哈！（笑）
39:36 Q: But not all of them probably when I see all of them only then will I drop them. 问：但没有完全丢掉， 也许当我看到它们的全部时，我才会丢掉它们。
39:42 K: It is like all of us sir we want to keep some which are pleasurable, which are pleasant which are comfortable and the others we discard. 克：就像我们所有人那样，先生， 我们想保留一些令人愉快的、 令人舒服的部分，而把其余的丢掉。
39:53 Q: I suggest, if I may, that it is not the sensations the physical sensations of a dangerous experience that we register but that it is the reasoning that we attribute to it at the time we register in our minds. 问：我认为，如果可以的话，我们记录的并不是感觉， 身体对某次危险经历的感觉， 而是当我们在脑子里进行记录时， 为那个经历赋予了某种理性支撑。
40:06 K: That is right sir. Let's go step by step into it sir. 克：就是这样，先生。 让我们一步一步地深入，先生，
40:13 We have talked about physical survival and anything that is dangerous to that must be totally avoided if you want to survive. And belief, any division between people is most destructive. Right? If you are a Christian, I am a Buddhist and I fight for my Buddhism and you fight for something else there is no physical security. Every war has shown this. Right? Every war is the result of our particular conditioning of our particular beliefs, etc. etc. So will you drop all those beliefs because that is the most dangerous thing for survival? 我们谈过了身体的生存， 而任何对其构成威胁的事情 都要完全避免，如果你想要活下来的话。 并且，人与人之间的任何分裂都是最具破坏力的。 对吗？ 如果你是个基督教徒，我是个佛教徒， 那么我为我的佛教而战，而你为别的什么而战， 于是就不存在身体的安全。 每场战争都表明了这点。 对吗？ 每场战争都是我们特定制约、 特定信仰等等等等的结果。 那么，因为那对生存来说是最危险的事情， 你会丢掉所有的信仰吗？
41:17 Q: Are you saying that anybody who believes in anything from the people you mentioned yesterday, the politicians priests, gurus, is not being honest with themselves and that only Krishnamurti can put forth the truth? (Laughter) That only the truth is available from you and we must not believe anything from any other person. 问：你是不是说，如果有人相信你昨天提到的那些人 ——政治家、牧师、上师——所说的任何事情， 就是对自己不诚实， 而只有克里希那穆提能提出真理？（笑声） 只有你能提供真理， 而我们不能相信来自其他人的任何东西。
41:50 K: I couldn't hear the whole of it sir somebody who has understood it please repeat it. 克：我没办法听清你说的所有内容，先生， 谁听懂了请重复一下。
41:54 Q: It is not the belief that is the threat to survival it is the belief in the belief that is the threat to survival it is an attitude of mind the feeling that the belief is something true for all time. 问：并非信仰是对生存的威胁， 威胁生存的是对信仰的信仰， 那是一种心态， 感觉那个信仰永远是真理。
42:15 K: Sir, drugs are dangerous for survival drink is dangerous, smoking and all that business do we drop all those things because they are dangerous? 克：先生，毒品对生存是危险的， 饮酒是危险的，抽烟及所有这类事情， 我们因为它们是危险的而丢掉了所有那些东西吗？
42:29 Q: When we see a cigarette

K: Sir, that is just it. So really we are discussing intellectually verbally this idea of survival. We really don't care if we survive or not. We just exist. So let's proceed from there. Psychologically why do you register? 		问：当我们看到一支烟……

克：先生，就是这么回事。 所以实际上我们是在智力上、 语言上讨论这个生存的问题。 我们并没有真正关心我们能否生存下去。 我们就这么存在着。 所以，让我们从那里继续。 你为什么要在心理上进行记录呢？
43:00 Q: Fear. 问：因为恐惧。
43:02 K: No, just look sir. Look into yourself. I can answer these questions very quickly, but do please enquire. It is a conversation between us two us two is all of us, you and I, a conversation in which we are saying: why do I, or you register psychologically anything? 克：不，看一看，先生。看看你自己。 我能很快回答这些问题，但请你务必深入进去探究。 这是我们两个人之间的交谈， 我们两个人就是我们所有人。你和我在进行对话， 我们说：为什么我或你 在心理上记录事情？
43:28 Q: Because we can't help it. It just happens. 问：因为我们禁不住这么做。 它就是那样发生的。
43:34 K: It may be our conditioning. It may be our education. It may be our social condition and economic and so on and so on. So we are conditioned to accept this psychological registration. Now we are saying, all right, that is a fact. Now why? 克：那也许是因为我们的制约，因为我们所受的教育。 也许是因为我们社会的以及经济的制约，等等，等等。 所以我们习惯了接受这种心理上的记录。 现在，我们说，好吧，那是事实。 可为什么要这样呢？
43:59 Q: Does one actually register in fact? 问：事实上人确实记录吗？
44:09 K: Yes, one actually registers, that is the fact. But I am asking why? Do find out. Ask yourself sir, not me ask you, ask yourself: I register my hurts, my pleasures, what you said to me what you didn't do, your nagging, this, that, 10 different things. Why do I register psychologically? 克：是的，人确实记录，这是事实。 但我要问为什么？ 请务必搞清楚。 问问你自己，先生，不是问我，问你，问你自己： 我记录我受的伤害、我的快乐、你对我说的话、 你没做的事、你的唠叨，这个、那个，各种不同的事情。 在心理上我为什么要记录呢？
44:37 Q: Biological registration to protect the organism is transformed to psychological level. 问：为了保护身体而进行的生理上的记录 被转移到了心理层面。
44:50 K: There is biological registration which we said is necessary and psychological registration. We said why do we register psychologically at all? 克：存在我们说有必要进行的生理上的记录， 也存在心理上的记录。 我们说，我们究竟为什么要在心理上记录呢？
45:03 Q: For security. To feel secure. 问：为了安全。要感到安全。
45:08 K: Is that so? Or you are isolating yourself which gives you the illusion that you are secure. You don't even 克：是这样吗？ 或者， 你在隔离自己， 而这给你一种你很安全的错觉。 你甚至没有
45:26 Q: Because we have no choice. 问：因为我们没有选择。
45:28 Q: Because we think we can solve things by thought. 问：因为我们认为我们能通过思想解决问题。
45:31 K: You say we have no choice - why? 克：你说我们没有选择——为什么？
45:40 Q: It's human nature. 问：那是人的天性。
45:42 K: No, just The gentleman said we have no choice. What do you mean by the word 'choice'? Is danger a choice? And why do you choose?

Q: Conditioning. 		克：不，只是……那位先生说我们没有选择。 你说的“选择”这个词指的是什么？ 危险是一种选择吗？ 那你为什么选择呢？

问：因为制约。
46:08 K: No, no, don't throw out 克：不，不，不要抛出
46:16 Q: Can we say biologically, let's say I like smoking or whatever. Right? This is dangerous but it is pleasurable so thought has a choice. 问：我们可否从生物学上说说，假设我喜欢抽烟或无论什么事情。 好吗？ 那是危险的但也是愉快的，所以思想有一个选择。
46:32 K: Yes. Sir we are trying to find out the meaning of that word 'choice' the depth of that word. I choose between two pieces of material for trousers or a coat. 克：是的。先生，我们在试着弄清楚“选择”这个词的含义， 深层的含义。 我在两块布料之间选择用哪一个做裤子或大衣。
46:48 Q: Does it exist?

K: Wait, wait. Choose. And I choose to go to that place and not to that place. I choose this guru and not that guru. I choose to believe in this and not in that. I am questioning, asking you, if you will kindly listen to find out why do you choose, what is the source of your choice? 		问：选择存在吗？

克：等一下。选择。 我选择去那里而不来这里。 我选择这个上师而不选择那个上师。 我选择信仰这个而不信仰那个。 我在提问，在问你，如果你愿意听一下，去弄清楚 你为什么选择，那么你选择的根源是什么呢？
47:16 Q: Inattention. 问：漫不经心。
47:20 Q: Protection and pleasure again. Protection and pleasure. 问：还是安全和快乐。安全和快乐。
47:24 K: No, no. When do you choose? Don't you choose when you are uncertain? 克：不，不是。你什么时候选择呢？ 难道不是当你不确定的时候才会选择吗？
47:33 Q: When in conflict. 问：有冲突时。
47:35 K: A man who is very clear - clear - there is no choice. It is so. 克：一个非常明晰的人——清晰——就不存在选择。 就是这样。
47:42 Q: When you don't know. 问：当你不知道的时候。
47:45 K: Ah, sir, that means what? That is right, when you don't know. Do you think you will find 克：啊，先生，那是什么意思？ 没错，当你不知道的时候。 你认为你会不会发现
47:57 Q: One thing you choose on a certainty, and the other on a non-certainty. 问：你的某个选择是根据确定性做出的，而另一个选择来源于不确定性。
48:02 K: Yes, that is the same thing. When one is very clear you don't choose when you know exactly what road to take to a certain place there is no choice. It is only when you are uncertain you begin to choose or ask, question, find out. So I am asking, psychologically choice exists only when you are confused, uncertain - no? When you are very clear there is no need for choice. So a mind that is confused chooses. You are all silent at that statement. 克：是的，那是同一回事。 如果你非常清晰，你不选择， 当你确切知道哪条路通向某个地方， 就没有选择。 只有当你不确定的时候你才开始选择， 或者询问、质疑、探索。 所以，我要问，只有当你困惑、不确定时， 才会存在心理上的选择——不是吗？ 如果你非常清楚，就不需要选择。 所以，困惑的心才选择。 你们对这个说法都保持沉默。
48:54 Q: Could we talk about why the mind is confused? 问：我们能否讨论一下为什么心是困惑的呢？
48:57 K: Wait sir. I want to see - please, look at it sir. We are discussing, trying to talk over together why the brain registers. The brain biologically, we said organically, must register. Psychologically, inside, we are asking, why do we register at all? Somebody said because we have no choice in the matter. And the word 'choice' implies choosing between this and that. Now when you see danger you don't choose (laughs) - right? You see danger and move. You don't say 'Well, shall I go to the right or to the left is it right, is it wrong' - (Laughter) 克：等一下，先生。 我想弄明白——请看一下，先生。 我们在讨论，试着一起讨论 大脑为什么记录。 我们说过，大脑在生物层面上、 在身体器官层面上必须记录。 在心理上、内在地，我们问，我们究竟为什么要记录呢？ 有人说因为我们在这件事上没有选择。 而“选择”那个词意味着在这个和那个之间选择。 而当你看到危险你不选择（笑）——对吗？ 你看到危险就行动。 你不说 “哦，我应该向右还是向左呢， 这么做是对还是错呢？”——（笑声）
49:57 So similarly I am asking: psychologically what is the need for registration? Does it help us to protect ourselves? 那么，类似地，我要问： 在心理上有什么必要记录呢？ 它帮助我们保护自己吗？
50:15 Q: Yes. When we set out in life we are concerned with the survival of the body but soon the mind takes over survival of the mind. 问：是的。 当我们开始生命旅程时，我们关心的是 身体的存活， 但不久头脑就接管了头脑的生存。
50:24 K: That is what we are saying. Physical survival has slipped into psychological survival. Right?

Q: Yes. 		克：那就是我们说的意思。 身体层面的生存落入了心理领域的生存。 对吗？

问：是的。
50:34 K: Now I say, why? 克：那么，我说，为什么呢？
50:37 Q: It exercises a sense of identity. 问：它运用了一种认同感。
50:40 K: Identity with whom? 克：跟谁认同？
50:43 Q: Because we don't really know what is right. Not so sure. 问：因为我们并不真正知道什么是正确的。 不太确定。
50:52 K: So you want to find out what is right. 克：所以你想去找到什么是正确的。
50:55 Q: It's choice. 问：那是选择。
50:56 K: How do you find out what is right when your mind is (laughs) a bit uncertain, and confused? No, you are going off, you don't stick to one thing at a time. Please forgive me. Psychologically why do I register? 克：你怎么能发现什么是正确的呢，如果你的头脑（笑） 有点不确定、有点困惑？ 不，你跑题了，你没有一次盯住一件事情。 请原谅我这样说。 在心理上我为什么记录呢？
51:17 Q: Because we want to register.

Q: Because I am not whole? 		问：因为我们想记录。

问：因为我不完整？
51:21 K: No, sir. Look into yourself, you will find out. 克：不，先生，深入自己的内心，你会找到答案的。
51:28 Q: In order to build up experience. 问：为了增长经验。
51:31 K: In order to build up experience which is knowledge, which then becomes memory. And without memory, without knowledge you are nobody. So we say 'By Jove, I must have some knowledge about..' - right? - otherwise I am nobody. Is that what you are saying? You are not thinking about all this. 克：为了积累经验， 经验就是知识，然后变成记忆。 而如果没有记忆、没有知识，你就什么也不是。 所以我们说“天哪，我必须有些关于……的知识” ——对吗？——否则，我就什么也不是。 这就是你说的意思吗？ 你没有思考这些。
52:04 Q: One wants to protect oneself 问：人想要保护自己
52:06 K: One wants to protect oneself. Biologically, organically, you have. We have learnt how to do that very well. In spite of wars, in spite of terrorists, except the victims. Now we are saying psychologically do you protect yourself? What is it you are protecting? 克：人想要保护自己。 在生物层面、在有机体层面，你是这么做的。 我们已经学会了怎么做好这件事情。 尽管有战争，尽管有恐怖主义者，除了那些受害者。 那么我们说，在心理上你保护自己吗？ 你正在保护的是什么？
52:30 Q: I think it is

K: Do please answer me. What is it you are protecting? 		问：我认为是……

克：请务必回答我。 你保护的是什么？
52:36 Q: All this memory. 问：所有这些记忆。
52:39 Q: Your idea of yourself. 问：你对自己的想法。
52:43 Q: Our minds become so cluttered up with what is in our minds that it becomes greater than our experience of our bodies. So our minds become up there and that's why we are more aware of our minds than our bodies. And we think that it is our minds that we should protect. 问：我们的头脑被它的内容塞得满满的， 它变得比我们身体的经验更重要。 所以我们的头脑变得高高在上， 那就是为什么我们更多地感觉到我们的头脑而不是我们的身体。 于是我们认为应该保护的是我们的头脑。
52:58 K: So you give more attention to your body and less attention to the brain. 克：所以你更注意你的身体， 不那么注意大脑。
53:06 Q: No, the other way round. 问：不，正相反。
53:09 K: Yes, get more and more muddled. 克：是的，变得越来越糊涂。
53:11 Q: Yes. (Laughter) 问：是的。（笑）
53:15 K: You see sir, we psychologically register in order to be something. Right? Psychologically. Right? I register where I was born, that is simple. The brain registers because it has been trained to accept certain strata of society and that gives the person psychologically a position a sense of power, a sense of superiority. So this registration psychologically gradually builds up the ego, the 'me' - right? Isn't that so? Don't accept what I am saying, please look at yourself. If you didn't register psychologically would you have an ego? 克：先生你看，我们在心理上记录，为了成为某个人物。 对吗？ 在心理上。 对吗？ 我记录我的出生地，那很简单。 大脑记录，因为它被训练 去接受某个社会阶层， 而这在心理上给这个人一个定位、 一种权力感、一种优越感。 所以这种记录在心理上 逐渐建立起那个自我，那个“我”——对吗？ 难道不是这样吗？ 不要接受我说的话，请审视你自己。 如果你在心理上不做记录，你还会有一个自我吗？
54:26 Q: No.

K: Obviously not. Psychologically you are aggressive, abrasive, violent it gives you a certain sense of - you know, authority a certain sense of assurance. So this gradual process of registration psychologically builds the sense of the 'me'. That is a fact, no? Me, my opinion, my judgements, my wife, my husband my girl, your girl, boy, my house, my quality my experience, my hurts, my fears, my I am all that, psychologically. Right? It is a fact. You don't have to agree with the speaker, it is so. Then I say to myself, why do I build this ego why is there this constant building of the me? 		问：不会。

克：显然不会。 在心理上你争强好胜、粗暴， 它给你一定程度的——你知道—— 权威感， 一定程度的确定感。 所以心理上这个渐进的记录过程 建立起“我”的感觉。 这是事实，不是吗？ 我，我的意见、我的判断、我的妻子、我的丈夫、 我的女朋友、你的女朋友、男朋友、我的房子、我的品质、 我的经验、我的创伤、我的眼泪、我的 在心理上，我就是这一切。 对吗？这是事实。 你不用赞同我，就是这么回事。 然后我对自己说，我为什么要建立这个自我， 为什么要持续地构建自我呢？
55:46 Q: To protect it. 问：为了保护它。
55:47 K: What are you protecting? 克：你在保护什么？
55:50 Q: I am just trying to hold on to it, more and more. 问：我就是在尽力抓住它，越来越用力。
55:52 K: Yes, sir. After building it up you hold on to it you cling to it, you say, 'I daren't break it down' 克：是的，先生。 把它建成以后，你就抓住它不放， 你紧紧依附着它，你说“我不敢把它打破。”
56:00 Q: It is like a sand castle.

K: Yes, sand Don't go off into similes. Stick to one thing. So I say, what is the need for it because that brings enormous trouble, enormous pain? I am hurt, I am frightened, I am anxious, I am jealous I am greedy, I must not, I must be - you follow? this battle is going on constantly emotionally getting stronger and stronger, more intense. And what am I building? What is the reality of this structure? You understand? The reality, in the sense this is real the microphone in front of me is real. Actually I can touch it. Can I touch the psychological structure of the 'me'? I can't. So it is merely a building up of words. This is rather difficult to accept. One builds in relationship the hurts, the flattery the comfort and so gradually out of that I depend on you. And you hurt me by doing something so I cling to you not to be hurt. And so on and on and on and on. Now, why do we do this? 		问：它就像一个沙筑的城堡。

克：是的，沙筑的。 不要陷到类比里边去。 盯住一件事情。 所以我说，要它有什么用呢？ 因为它带来了无尽的麻烦和痛苦。 我受伤，我害怕，我焦虑，我嫉妒， 我贪婪，我不能如何，我必须如何——你明白吗？ 这种斗争在持续进行着， 情绪变得越来越强烈，强度更大。 而我在构筑什么呢？ 这个结构的真相是什么？ 你明白吗？ 真相，意思是真实， 我面前的麦克风是真实的。 我可以实实在在地摸到它。 但我能触摸到“我”这个心理结构吗？ 我不能。 所以，它只是一个语言的构造。 这个接受起来非常困难。 我在关系中构造了伤害、奉承、 舒适，因而我渐渐开始依靠你。 而你做了某些事情伤害了我，所以我依附你，以免被伤害。 等等，等等，等等。 那么，我们为什么要这么做呢？
57:45 Q: We are protecting the part of us that does not know. 问：我们在保护我们自己不了解的部分。
57:48 K: Ah, no. We don't know what will happen if there is no building up the 'me'. Right? I will find out. I will find out if I say 'All right, I will find out there must be a process where the building up is not'. Right? Then I will find out what happens. But to speculate what might happen before this is such a waste of time and energy. 克：啊，不是。 如果我们没有建立自我，我们不知道接下来会发生什么。 对吗？ 我会去弄清楚。 我会弄清楚，如果我说 “好的，我要弄清楚， 肯定有一个不建立自我的过程。” 对吗？ 然后我就会发现会有什么事情发生。 但要事先去推测会发生什么， 这是时间和能量的巨大浪费。
58:32 Q: That's what makes the fear to do it. 问：这么做就是造成恐惧的原因。
58:36 K: So: first you build it up society helps, religions help everything helps to sustain the structure and then you are afraid to lose it. Right? And then you proceed to meditate how to get rid of this self - no? So before we say how to get rid of the self let us find out why you build it. 克：所以：首先你建立起了自我， 社会帮你、宗教帮你、 每件事情都来帮你维持那个结构， 所以你害怕失去它。 对吗？ 然后你要去冥想， 怎样摆脱这个自我——不是吗？ 所以在我们说怎样摆脱自我之前， 我们来弄清楚你为什么建立它。
59:18 Q: The need for power. 问：对权力的需要。
59:21 K: Yes, all right, it leads to power, put it any way you like. But the fact is this constant assertion this constant building up of the 'me', psychologically is it not a great danger? A great danger in your relationship with your wife with your girl, with society, with anything. Is it not a great danger because the danger is that you are in constant struggle, constant battle. 克：嗯，好吧，它指向权力，随便你怎么说。 但事实上，心理上这种持续的对“自我” 的确认和建设 不是一个很大的危险吗？ 在与你的妻子、 与你的女朋友、与社会、与任何事物的关系中， 那不是一个巨大的危险吗？ 因为危险就是你处于持续的挣扎、斗争中。
1:00:02 Q: It makes it difficult for you to adapt. 问：它使你难以适应。
1:00:05 K: No sir, find out why you are are you aware that you are building the 'me' up? And from that structure you have strong emotions you want to express, you want to assert. 克：不，先生，弄清楚你为什么这样， 你意识到你在建设那个“自我”吗？ 并且从那个结构中你产生了强烈的情感， 你想要表达，你想要主张。
1:00:33 Q: Is it the need for pleasure? 问：是因为想要快乐吗？
1:00:36 K: Yes, all right, it is pleasure and also it's fear and also it is greed and also it is constantly in pain, being hurt - you know. So don't take one thing and say it is that, it is the whole thing. 克：是的，好，因为快乐，也因为恐惧、 因为贪婪， 并且它一直处于痛苦和伤害中——你知道的。 所以不要挑出一件事情说它如何如何，这是一整件事情。
1:00:56 Q: Do we not believe in a myth is there not a myth that we believe in that if we don't survive psychologically we shan't survive. 问：难道我们不相信某个神话吗， 难道没有一个我们相信的神话吗， 就是说，如果我们从心理上不存在，那么我们就活不下来？
1:01:04 K: It may be a myth sir, but can't you throw away that myth? 克：那也许是个神话，先生，但难道你不能抛开那个神话吗？
1:01:10 Q: Have we been conditioned to this myth? 问：我们被这个神话制约了吗？
1:01:12 K: Yes, if you are conditioned to this myth can't you uncondition yourself can't the mind say, 'It is nonsense'? See we don't want to do that and we talk round it all the time. If I am aggressive it gives me pleasure it gives the structure of aggressiveness makes me violent, rude, vulgar and I like it. All right, keep it! Don't talk about meditation, etc., etc., etc. If that is a fact find out why you register these things why you hold on, and whether it cannot be totally dissipated. If you say it cannot, that is the end of it. All right, it cannot. If somebody says, 'Find out if it can or not' 'Oh,' then you say, 'you are in an illusion you are an ass, you don't know anything about it' 克：是的，如果你被这个神话制约了， 难道你就不能让自己解除那个制约吗， 难道头脑就不能说“那是胡说八道”吗？ 你看，我们不想那样做， 我们一直在围着它绕圈子。 如果我争强好胜，这能给我带来快感， 它带来争强好胜的结构， 使我暴力、粗鲁、粗俗，而我喜欢这样。 好吧，那就留着它！ 不要讨论冥想了，等等，等等，等等。 如果那是事实，那就搞清楚你为什么记录这些事情， 你为什么要抓住它们不放，能不能完全消除它们。 如果你说不能，那就到此为止了。 好吧，消除不了。 如果有人讲，“去弄清楚能还是不能”， 然后你说，“噢，你在幻想， 你是个笨蛋，你对此一无所知。”
1:02:26 So whereas I am suggesting psychologically there is no need for registration if you see the danger, real danger as you see a precipice, real danger of this psychological build up of the 'me' then you find out how to be free of it. Not you, you are part of that. There will be no toleration of the 'me' with all the opinions, judgements, evaluations aggressiveness, fear, pleasure, you know, the whole bundle of it. 然而我认为，在心理上 根本没有记录的必要， 如果你看到了其中的危险，真正的危险， 就像你看到了悬崖一样，在心理上 构筑那个“我”，其真正的危险， 那么你就能发现怎样摆脱它。 不是你，你是它的一部分。 就不会再容忍那个“我”， 那个“我”包含所有的观点、判断、评价、 争强好胜、恐惧、快乐，你知道，它所有的内容。
1:03:15 Q: What about the registrations that have already taken place from childhood before you are able to reason in this way? 问：从童年起，在你还无法这样推理的时候 所发生的记录，该怎么办？
1:03:31 K: What about the registration that has taken place from childhood. If you see registration is a danger then the childhood registration till now disappears. 克：从童年起发生的记录该怎么办。 如果你看到了记录是一种危险， 那么从童年到现在的记录就都消失了。
1:03:51 Q: We don't see it though, we don't want to. 问：可是我们没有看到，我们不想看到。
1:03:53 K: That is all I am saying sir. We won't see the danger of it, we like it. We like our fear, we like our - we accept it aggressiveness, we like to live in constant battle with ourselves that gives us a sense of well-being, that at least you are alive. And so on and on and on. 克：那就是我想说的，先生。 我们不愿看到它的危险，我们喜欢它。 我们喜欢我们的恐惧，我们喜欢我们的……——我们接受它， 接受了争强好胜，我们喜欢生活在与我们自己持续的战争中， 那给我们一种安康感，至少我还活着。 等等，等等，等等。
1:04:14 Q: Sir, because it is comfortable. 问：先生，因为那样舒服。
1:04:17 K: All right, sir, it is comfortable. 克：好的，先生，它让人舒服。
1:04:19 Q: What can we do with the vacuum that is left? 问：对剩下的真空我们怎么办呢？
1:04:22 K: You see - what will you do if you are in a vacuum. That is, you don't know what will take place if there is no registration. Find out. Not say you will live in a vacuum. I say to you you won't. What is the matter? On the contrary, a man who is in constant battle is not living. 克：你看——如果你在真空里，你会做什么？ 那就是说，如果没有记录你不知道将会发生什么。 去搞清楚。 不要说你将生活在真空里。 我跟你说，你不会生活在真空里的。那是怎么回事？ 正相反，处于持续的斗争中的人并没有活着。
1:04:47 Q: How do we find out? 问：我们怎么才能发现呢？
1:04:50 K: How do I find out what? 克：我怎么才能发现什么？
1:04:54 Q: How can we find out what else there is? What is the alternative to having this big ego thing. How can we find out what the alternative is? How do we go about it?

K: I don't understand. 		问：我们怎么才能发现还有些别的什么呢？ 除了拥有这个巨大的自我之外还有什么选择。 我们怎样才能发现另外的选择是什么？ 我们拿它怎么办呢？

克：我没明白。
1:05:08 Q: You have a bait. (Laughs) 问：你要个诱饵。（笑）
1:05:11 Q: No, he doesn't understand the first question. 问：不，他不明白第一个问题。
1:05:15 Q: How did you do it? How did you get rid of your ego? 问：你是怎么做到的？ 你是怎么摆脱你的自我的？
1:05:20 K: How do you know I have got rid of it? (Laughter) (Applause) 克：你怎么知道我摆脱了它？（笑声） （掌声）
1:05:28 No sir, no, don't bother about me. (Laughter) I have been a long time at it, from the age of fifteen. For me, when I was born, probably it was not there. But that is totally utterly irrelevant to you. What is relevant is you, why you hold on to this thing this miserable unfortunate suffering 'me'. And to escape from that you go off to India put on robes and put on beads - you know. (Laughter) All that nonsense goes on. 不，先生，不，不用为我费心。（笑声） 我早就做到了，从十五岁的时候开始。 对我来说，从我出生，它可能就不在了。 但那跟你一点儿关系都没有。 跟你有关的是，为什么你抓住这个东西不放， 抓住这个苦难的、不幸的、痛苦的“我”。 并且，为了逃避它，你远赴印度， 穿上袍子，挂上念珠——你知道的。（笑声） 所有那些荒唐的事情都上演了。
1:06:18 Q: Because we live in the past or the future, not in the present. 问：因为我们活在过去或未来，而不是现在。
1:06:22 K: Please don't bother about me. Just find out why you build see the consequences of building this structure the consequences of this structure and if you like it, if it pleases you if it gives you comfort, know in that comfort there is tremendous danger that you suffer, that you go through all kinds of neuroticisms you know what is happening. If you say that gives me comfort, stay with it. 克：请不要为我操心。 找出你为什么建立自我就好了， 看到建立这种结构的后果、 这种结构的结果， 而如果你喜欢它，如果它让你高兴， 如果它让你舒服，知道在那种舒服中 存在巨大的危险， 你痛苦，你经历各种神经质， 你知道正在发生的一切。 如果你说那给了我舒适，那就跟它待在一起吧。
1:07:02 Q: In other words we are too lazy to change. 问：换句话说，我们太懒惰以至于不去改变。
1:07:06 K: Yes. Now how is that? I perceive, or I am aware that I am building this structure thought is building this structure all the time sleeping, waking, dreaming, daydreaming, walking all the time, concerned about itself. Now what is the way, what is the process to end this thing - you don't ask that. 克：是的。 那么，那又是怎么回事呢？ 我察觉到，或者我意识到我在建造这种结构， 思想一直在建造这种结构， 睡眠时、清醒时、做梦时、做白日梦时、走路时， 所有的时间，都在关心它自己。 那么，通过什么方式、什么过程 去结束这件事情——你没有那样问。
1:07:49 Q: If I may - if I ask myself why I collect these identifying things about me who do I ask in order to get past the me? 问：请允许——如果我问自己 为什么我收集这些我认同的东西， 那么我请求谁去超越那个我呢？
1:08:09 K: No, I am asking you. 克：不，我在问你。
1:08:11 Q: I understand. I don't mean ask a person. I say how does an I do this? 问：我知道。 我的意思不是要请求某个人。我是说一个“我”怎么做到这点？
1:08:19 K: I'll show you sir in a minute, look. 克：先生，我在一分钟内就会展示给你，请看。
1:08:21 Q: Okay. 问：好的。
1:08:22 K: Is it a fact to you that you are building psychologically this illusory structure which has become such an extraordinary reality to one? Are you aware of the structure first? 克：这对你是不是一个事实， 那就是，你从心理上建造了这个虚幻的结构， 对你来说，这个结构变成了一个无比真实的东西？ 首先你意识到了这个结构吗？
1:08:43 Q: I think so, yes. 问：我认为是的。
1:08:47 K: If one is aware of it, what do you mean by being aware of it? We have come back to the original question: what is the relationship between awareness and faith? There is no relationship whatsoever between awareness and faith. Faith is not a fact. It is a belief. 克：如果你意识到了它，你说的“意识到它”是什么意思？ 我们已经回到了最初的问题： 觉知和信仰之间的关系是什么？ 觉知和信仰之间没有任何关系。 信仰不是事实。 它是一个信念。
1:09:19 Q: Define faith. What does faith mean to you?

K: Nothing. Please don't bother about so are you aware of the structure? Please, let's be for 5 minutes serious. Are you aware of the structure in yourself? If you are, what do you mean by being aware? In that awareness is there a duality, that is I am aware of that? You understand my question sir?

Q: Yes. 		问：给信仰下个定义。 信仰对你来说意味着什么？

克：什么都不是。 请不用费心 那么，你是否意识到了那个结构？ 请保持五分钟的认真。 你意识到自身的那个结构了吗？ 如果你意识到了，你说的意识到是什么意思？ 在那种觉察中是否存在一种二元性，就是说 我意识到了那个？ 你理解我的问题吗，先生？

问：是的。
1:10:06 K: I am aware of that light, that light is different from me. Now am I in that same position when I say I am aware of the structure the structure being different from me? Or the structure is me? 克：我觉察到那个灯，那个灯与我是不同的。 那么，我是不是处于相同的情况之中， 如果我说我意识到了那个结构， 那个结构与我是不同的？ 或者那个结构就是我？
1:10:33 Q: It is a very uncomfortable feeling to be. 问：这是一种非常不舒服的感觉。
1:10:35 K: No, no. It is not a question of comfort or discomfort. Please move away from those things forgive me, you are just going back to something. Which is, am I aware as though the structure were something separate from me away over there, or near, and I who am aware is different from that? Or I am that? You understand? 克：不，不。 那不是一个舒服或不舒服的问题。 请抛开那些事情， 请原谅我，你刚刚退回去了。 那就是，我有没有意识到 好像那个结构是与我不同的什么东西， 或远或近，并且那个知道的我 不同于那个结构？ 或者我就是那个结构？你明白吗？
1:11:12 Q: Yes.

K: Obviously. Right? I am that. That is, the observer is the observed. Right? 		问：是的。

克：很明显。 对吗？我就是那个结构。 也就是，观察者就是被观察之物。 对吗？
1:11:23 Q: It's a question if that is true or not. 问： 是不是真是这么回事，这是个问题。
1:11:26 K: No, no. Question it sir, don't hesitate, see, it is so simple. I have built up this structure, the structure has been built. And part of the structure is, I am different from the structure. I am the soul, I am the great man, I am the, etc. etc. Or I am full of knowledge and the structure is not knowledge. You follow? So I am asking: do you see the structure as something separate from yourself? 克：不，不。 问一问，先生，不要犹豫，你看，这很简单。 我建造了这种结构，这种结构被建立起来。 而这个结构的一部分就是，我不同于那个结构。 我是那个灵魂，我是伟大的人物，我是等等等等。 或者我知识渊博，而且那个结构不是知识。 你理解吗？ 所以我要问： 你把那个结构看作是与你分开的东西吗？
1:12:10 Q: No. 问：不。
1:12:12 K: If you really say no, that means - what does it mean? 克：如果你真的说不是，那意味着——意味着什么？
1:12:20 Q: (Inaudible)

K: No, just sir. This is really for half an hour do please put your minds to this, I beg of you. Are you different from your aggression? Obviously you are not. You are aggression, it is part of you. 		问：（听不清）

克：不，先生。 这个问题实际上已经讲了半个小时了， 恳请你对此用心。 你与你的争强好胜是分开的吗？ 显然不是。 你争强好胜，它是你的一部分。
1:12:45 Q: But we alone can change it. 问：但我们自己能改变它。
1:12:49 K: No. Who is we?

Q: I mean we ourselves. We can change. 		克：不。 谁是我们？

问：我是指我们自己，我们能改变。
1:12:58 Q: If I was just my aggression I wouldn't know about my aggression. 问：如果我就是我的争强好胜，我就不会知道我争强好胜。
1:13:04 K: Oh yes, you would.

Q: How? 		克：噢，不，你会知道。

问：怎么知道？
1:13:06 K: Your friends would tell you, 'Don't be so aggressive' (Laughter) if he is a friend. (Laughter) 克：你的朋友会告诉你，“不要这样争强好胜，” （笑声） 如果他是朋友的话。（笑声）
1:13:22 Q: You ask us to look into ourselves, that surely implies 问：你让我们深入探究自己，那确实意味着
1:13:25 K: No, madam, I am asking this please listen to it quietly, if I may suggest. I am asking you how do you observe this structure? You can observe the building, see it away from you. But this structure you can't separate it say 'That is not me', it is you. Your fears, your quarrels, your ambitions, your aggressiveness your anxieties, all that structure is you. There is no argument about it. 克：不，女士，我是要求这样， 请安静地听，如果我可以这么建议的话。 我在问你，你怎么观察这个结构？ 你能观察那栋楼，从远处看。 但你不能分开这个结构， 说“那不是我”，它就是你。 你的恐惧、你的争吵、你的野心、你的好斗、 你的焦虑，那整个结构就是你。 无须争论。
1:14:04 Q: But you are not a united thing. You are all sorts of things and they are all in conflict with each other. 问：但你不是一个统一的东西。 你是各种东西， 而且它们互相矛盾。
1:14:10 K: That is what I am saying. 克：那就是我说的意思。
1:14:11 Q: I can take the side of one part of you you can observe the other part.

K: No. The observer is part of the observed. 		问：站在你的一部分那边， 你能观察另一部分。

克：不。 观察者是被观察之物的一部分。
1:14:19 Q: Yes, but you couldn't observe yourself in totality if you were 问：是的，但如果你是一部分，你就不能从整体上观察你自己。
1:14:23 K: Oh, yes. I can observe, I can say I am fear. The next day I say I am pleasure. The third day I say oh, I am so jealous. But is part of the whole thing. Now that is what I am saying. Please if I may suggest, please give your attention to this, which is: as long as the 'me' separates himself from the structure the 'me' that separates itself from the structure as long as there is this division there will be conflict there will be fight, there will be nagging there will be anxiety, all the rest of it. But the fact is: the structure is you. 克：噢，能的。我能观察，我能说我是恐惧。 第二天我说我是快乐。 第三天我说，噢，我是这么嫉妒。 但都是整体的一部分。 这就是我要说的意思。 拜托， 请允许我恳请你用心关注这个问题，那就是： 只要那个“我”将自己与那个结构分开， 那个将自己与那个结构分开的“我”， 只要存在这种分离，就会存在冲突， 就会存在斗争、存在唠叨、 存在焦虑，诸如此类。 而事实上：那个结构就是你。
1:15:20 Q: Sir, the conflict seems to be inward, in the individual and it somehow seems to be a conflict between what you were talking about the senses not being fully alert, and also the mind the intellectual mind wanting to take individual problems and fears or tendencies. 问：先生，那个冲突好像是内在的，在人的内心， 并且它在某种程度上好像是一种冲突， 你谈到过的没有完全清醒的 感觉之间的冲突，还有头脑， 那个聪明的头脑想 解决各个单独的问题，恐惧或倾向等等。
1:15:42 K: No sir, all that is included in that. Your individual tendencies, idiosyncrasies your particular talent, or lack of talent your capacity - include everything that thought has put together as me. That is the structure thought has created. Then thought says, 'I am different from the structure' 克：不，先生，所有那些都包含在里边。 你的个人倾向、气质， 你特殊的天赋，或没什么天赋， 你的能力——包括思想拼凑成自我的所有东西。 那就是思想建造的结构。 然后思想说“我不同于那个结构。”
1:16:13 Q: I don't think everybody thinks that they are different from the structure. 问：我想大家不会认为 他们不同于那个结构。
1:16:18 K: I don't know. 克：我不知道。
1:16:20 Q: Well, I don't.

K: Do you? I am not talking to you personally madam but I am just asking: does each one of us realise that we are the structure and structure is not separate from us? If you realise that, if that is an actual fact then a totally different action takes place. 		问：哦，我也不知道。

克：你知道吗？ 我不是对你个人说的，女士， 我只是问： 我们每个人有没有意识到我们就是那个结构， 并且结构与我们不是分开的？ 如果你意识到了，如果那是个千真万确的事实， 那么一种完全不同的行动就会发生。
1:16:50 Q: Are you saying that the part of us that is made up of our belief is our outer shell and that in order to grow and evolve we have to break through something 问：你是不是说， 构成我们信仰的那个部分是我们的外壳， 而为了成长和进化， 我们不得不突破什么东西。
1:17:04 K: No, no, no. I am not saying anything of that kind. I am just saying sir don't translate what I am saying into your own you know when I speak in India, which I do unfortunately, or fortunately they translate what I say into their own particular language and most of the languages in India are derived from Sanskrit and the words they use are loaded with tradition all kinds of meanings. I say, please don't translate what I am saying just listen to what I am saying which is very difficult because they immediately translate it. They think by translating they have understood. They have understood the traditional meaning say for instance of awareness. They have got a special Sanskrit word for it in that word there is all kinds of connotations in that word. So please, I am just saying as long as there is a difference between the structure and the observer there must be suppression, there must be conflict there must be escape, there must be going off to India to find how to do this and how to do that, meditate surely, not cooking, and so on and so on and so on. Whereas when there is the actual truth the fact that the observer is the observed the structure is me, me is not different from the structure then there is a totally different action. That is what I want to get at. 克：不，不，不。我不会说任何这种事情。 先生，我只是说 不要把我说的话翻译成你自己的话， 你知道，当我不幸或有幸在印度讲话时， 他们把我说的话翻译成他们自己特别的语言， 而印度的多数语言源自梵文， 所以他们采用的词汇承载着传统 和各种含义。 我说，请不要翻译我说的话， 听我说就好了， 那非常困难，因为他们立马就会翻译。 他们认为通过翻译他们理解了。 他们理解了传统的含义， 以觉察为例， 对于这个词，他们有一个特定的梵文词， 那个词里有各种各样的含义。 所以请注意，我只是说 只要在那个结构 和观察者之间存在区别， 就必定存在压制，就必定存在冲突， 就必定存在逃避，就肯定要远赴印度， 去打听怎样做这个和怎样做那个，怎样冥想， 当然不是怎么做饭了，等等，等等，等等。 然而，当认识到了这个千真万确的真相， 即观察者就是被观察之物、 那个结构就是我、我与那个结构没有什么不同这个事实， 就会有完全不同的行动。 那就是我想表达的意思。
1:18:55 Q: Sir, if you realise that and there is a sort of silence how do we keep that and not go back? 问：先生，如果你实现了那点并有了某种宁静， 我们要怎样保持那个状态而不倒退？
1:19:04 K: When you see a danger of a precipice, or a dangerous animal you don't go back to it, it is finished. 克：当你看到了一个悬崖或一个致命动物的危险， 你不会倒退回去的，它结束了。
1:19:18 Q: It seems to me that this process of separation is a fundamental process of all the conditioning that goes on, and everything that I seem to do to try and go against this conditioning always seems to be just another part of this conditioning. 问：在我看来这个分离的过程 是正在发生的所有制约具有的一个基础过程， 似乎我所做的、所尝试的 对抗制约的每件事情 恰恰始终是这种制约的另一部分。
1:19:33 K: Yes sir. 克：是的，先生。
1:19:34 Q: How on earth do I get around that? 问：我到底怎么才能绕过那个？
1:19:36 K: I am showing to you something, you don't listen. Not that you must listen sir, but I am pointing out something. When you say 'I am that conditioning conditioning is not different from me' when that becomes an absolute, irrevocable truth, a fact then there is totally different action out of that fact. 克：我在指给你看某些东西，你没有听。 不是你必须听，先生，但我在指出某些东西。 当你说“我是那个制约， 制约与我没有什么不同，” 当那变成一个绝对的、无可争辩的真相、一个事实， 那么，从那个事实中就会产生完全不同的行动。
1:20:09 Q: Then what happens?

K: Ah! Then what happens - that is exactly what it is. First you don't come to it but you say then tell me what happens. (Laughter) You don't want to climb the mountain, which is arduous which demands that you carry little, dangerous, be roped we have played with all this, I have done this, some part of it. It is dangerous to climb mountains. So you go lightly - right? not with heavy rucksack and all the rest of it. 		问：接下来会发生什么？

克：啊！ 接下来会发生什么——事情恰恰就是这样。 首先你并没有到达那里， 但你说那先告诉我会发生什么。（笑声） 你不想攀登那座山，山很险峻， 需要你轻装上阵，很危险，需要绑上绳子， 我们都玩过这些，我做过一些这样的事情。 登山很危险。 所以你轻装简从——对吗？ 不带着大背包以及诸如此类的东西。
1:20:49 So this demands that you work, that you look. But unfortunately all kinds of interruptions take place. Some of you this morning I saw doing exercises good or bad, that is up to you but here you don't even give ten minutes to find out. Find out what actually takes place when the observer of the structure is the observer himself - the structure is the observer. Then you will find there is no conflict at all. Right? When you are that what can you do? You follow sir? So there is no conflict and therefore there is energy. I won't go more into it because that is too where there is energy, complete energy there is emptiness. 所以这需要你去用功，去观察。 但不幸的是有各种干扰发生。 今天早上我看到你们中有些人在做运动， 是好是坏，那取决于你， 但在这里，你们甚至没有花十分钟去搞清楚。 搞清楚实际上会发生什么，当那个结构的观察者 就是观察者自己——那个结构就是观察者。 那时你就会发现冲突完全不存在了。 对吗？ 当你就是那个的时候，你能做什么？ 你明白吗，先生？ 所以没有了冲突，于是就有了能量。 我不再深入进去了，因为这太 哪里有能量，完全的能量，哪里就有空无。
1:22:19 That is enough for today, isn't it? Perhaps we can continue with this on Thursday. Would you agree to that please? 今天讲得够多了，不是吗？ 我们可能星期三会继续。 你们同意吗？
1:22:35 Q: Yes.

K: Bene. 		问：同意。

克：好的。