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BR78D2 - 人能通过关系来学习吗?
第二次公开对话
英国布洛克伍德公园
1978年8月31日



0:44 K: What shall we talk about this morning, talk over together? 克：今天上午我们应该讨论什么，一起讨论些什么呢？
0:49 Q: May I please request you to say something about the energy of consciousness? The energies. 问：能不能请你说点儿 关于意识的能量的事情？ 各种能量。
0:58 K: Would you talk over together the energy that you talk about. 克：你能不能一起来讨论 你所说的那种能量。
1:07 Q: I feel after Tuesday's discussion that there is some confusion over the word 'observation' in as much as what we generally call observation is in fact commentary after the fact and not observation at all. 问：在周二的讨论之后，我感觉到 在“观察”那个词上面笼罩着一些困惑， 因为差不多我们通常所说的观察 实际上是事后的评论，而根本不是观察。
1:28 K: What do you mean by observation. We generally observe after the event and not observe as it is taking place is that what you mean sir?

Q: Yes. 		克：你说的观察指的是什么。 我们通常在事后观察， 而不是在事情发生的时候观察， 先生，这是你的意思吗？

问：是的。
1:41 K: Any other? Madame? 克：还有吗？ 女士？
1:46 Q: Could you speak about learning and what is learning, what is relationship? And can one learn about oneself through relationship? 问：你能不能讲讲学习， 什么是学习，什么是关系？ 人能通过关系了解自己吗？
2:00 K: Can one learn about oneself through self-observation. 克：一个人能不能通过自我观察来了解自己。
2:09 Q: And relationship with others. 问：还有和其他人的关系。
2:11 K: Can one learn through relationship with others about oneself. That's what that is the question. 克：人能不能通过与他人的关系来了解自己。 那就是……你提出的问题。
2:21 Q: Yes sir. 问：是的，先生。
2:22 Q: Sir, could we talk about emptiness, please. 问：先生，我们能不能谈谈空无。
2:24 K: Just a minute. 克：等一下。
2:25 Q: You have said that silence is the one fact. I wonder if you could enlarge on that. 问：你说过寂静是一个事实。 我想知道你能不能就这个问题展开讲一下。
2:32 K: Silence is a fact and could we go into it, enlarge it and see the depth of it, the meaning of it. 克：寂静是一个事实，我们能不能深入它、展开它、 看到它的深度和意义。
2:46 Q: Could you go into emptiness please? 问：请你能不能深入探讨一下空无？
2:49 K: Could we go over together talk about that which you have said about emptiness. 克：我们能不能一起 讨论你所说的关于空无的问题。
3:03 Q: Can we continue the question of registration whether one should register or not. 问：我们能不能继续讨论记录的问题， 人是不是应该记录。
3:08 K: Oh. The question of registration whether one should register or not. I wonder if you were here the other day, sir I think we discussed it two days ago or the day before and I hope you will not mind if we don't go into it because we went into it pretty thoroughly. Q; I wonder, could we talk about the energy of violence. 克：噢。 记录的问题， 人是不是应该记录。 我想知道前几天你有没有来，先生， 我想两天前或者昨天 我们讨论过这个问题了，如果我们不再探讨这个问题的话， 我希望你不要介意，因为我们已经讨论得非常详尽了。 问：我想知道，我们能不能讨论暴力的能量。
3:36 K: Talk about energy of violence. 克：讨论暴力的能量。
3:41 Q: (In French) 问：（法语）
3:54 K: Disorder. Can one be aware of oneself at the same time observe one's disorder? 克：失序。 人能不能觉察自己， 同时观察自己的失序？
4:02 Q: Can one be one with fear and so on and at the same time observe it. 问：人能不能与恐惧等等成为一体， 同时又能观察它。
4:08 K: That's it sir. 克：就是这样，先生。
4:10 Q: If we shouldn't discipline and shouldn't make an effort but we should work on ourselves. I don't understand not to discipline and not to make the effort but still be working on ourselves. Can you make that more clear? 问: 如果我们不应该进行约束也不应该努力， 但我们应该对我们自己下功夫。 我不理解怎么能不去约束 又不努力但仍然对我们自己下功夫。 你能不能讲得更清楚些？
4:26 K: Can you talk over together about effort and discipline and without effort can one observe oneself. 克：你能不能讨论 努力和纪律， 并且如果没有努力人能不能观察自己。
4:41 Now just a minute, please: we have had so many questions. I don't know of whom you are asking these questions because we are asking these questions of ourselves and trying to find a solution, an answer. So these are the questions: energy can one learn about oneself through relationship and also what do you mean by that word 'learn' can one learn about oneself through relationship and what do you mean by learning. The other is, talk about emptiness, silence. I think that is about all.

Q: Violence. 		现在，请稍等一下，我们已经有这么多问题了。 我不知道你们是在向谁提出这些问题， 因为我们是在向我们自己提出这些问题， 并试着找到一个解决方法、一个答案。 那么，这些问题有：能量， 人能不能通过关系了解自己， 还有，用“学习”那个词你指的是什么？ 人能不能通过关系了解自己， 而你说的学习是什么意思。 另外一个问题是，谈谈空无、寂静。 我想这就是所有的问题了。

问：暴力。
5:45 K: And that lady points out can one observe oneself in action and that lady put a question, which is effort and discipline seem to go together and you apparently point out a different way of observing, acting. So which of these questions shall we take? 克：还有那位女士指出，人能不能在行动中观察自己， 那位女士提出了一个问题： 努力和约束似乎是一起进行的， 而你显然指出了一种不同的观察和行动的方式。 那么，我们选择回答哪个问题呢？
6:18 Q: The last question: you also point out that you must do it. It seems like a contradiction.

K: Contradiction. You also say you must do it, that is, test it out. Test it out, test out what is being said in one's own life and not depend on somebody else. Now which of these questions shall we talk about? 		问：最后一个问题：你也指出你必须去做。 这好像是个矛盾。

克：矛盾。 你也说你必须去做，就是说，去亲自检验。 进行试验，在自己的生活中 检验所说的话，并且不依靠别的什么人。 那么，我们应该讨论这些问题中的哪一个呢？
6:45 Q: Learning and relationship. (Laughter) 问：学习和关系。（笑声）
6:50 K: Learning and can one learn about oneself through relationship. Now which of these questions would you like to talk over together? 克：学习以及人能不能通过关系了解自己。 那么这些问题中的哪一个你们愿意一起讨论呢？
7:03 Q: Energy.

Q: Silence and emptiness. 		问：能量。

问：寂静和空无。
7:07 Q: Silence and energy. 问：寂静和能量。
7:08 K: Silence, emptiness, relationship all right, I think we can bring it all together in talking over this question of what is learning and can one learn about oneself in any kind of relationship and perhaps if we could go into that rather deeply we might be able to answer these several questions about energy, silence, discipline and effort and can one observe without any effort and discipline and is it possible to be aware at the same time when one is acting, conscious? Right? And silence and so on. Can we bring all this into this one question which has been put: what is learning and can one learn through relationship? Can we go into that and bring all the other factors into it? May we?

Q: Yes. 		克：寂静、空无、关系， 好吧，我认为我们可以把所有的问题集中到一起， 来讨论什么是学习， 以及人能不能通过任何一种关系来了解自己这个问题， 并且，如果我们探究得相当深入的话， 我们也许能回答这些问题—— 能量、寂静、约束和努力， 以及人能不能不借助任何努力和约束来观察， 以及人是否可能 在行动的同时保持觉知？ 对吗？还有寂静等等。 我们能不能把所有问题都集中到刚才提出来的 这一个问题上： 什么是学习，并且人能不能通过关系来学习？ 我们能不能深入那个问题并将其他因素都纳入进来？ 可以吗？

问：可以。
8:21 K: All right. What do we mean by learning? I think this is a fairly important question if we could go into it rather slowly and carefully. We learn from books we learn from parents, colleges, universities and so on and also we learn through experience. We learn through various forms of events which all become knowledge. Right? That is fairly clear: that we gather information, experience and various forms of events and incidents that happen in our life and from all these we accumulate knowledge and from that knowledge we act. Right? That is one way of learning. 克：好的。 我们说的学习指的是什么？ 我认为这是个非常重要的问题， 如果我们能慢慢地、仔细地深入这个问题的话。 我们从书本中学习， 我们从父母、学院、大学等等中学习， 我们也从经验中学习。 我们通过各种事情学习， 那些事情都变成了知识。对吗？ 这非常清楚： 那就是我们收集信息、经验， 以及发生在我们生活中的各种各样的 事情和事件， 我们从这一切中积累知识， 并且依据那些知识去行动。 对吗？那是一种学习方式。
9:31 Is there another way of learning at all? That is what we are We know the ordinary way of learning. Is there another way of learning? Because the ordinary way of learning the implications of learning in the ordinary way is to accumulate knowledge and act according to that knowledge therefore that learning helps us to become more and more mechanical. I don't know if you follow all this. May I go on with it? This is not a talk by me. We are sharing this thing together. So, please, I can go into it but you will also have to join in in the investigation of what we mean by learning. So it is your responsibility too not just mine, talking about it. 究竟有没有其他的学习方式呢？ 刚才那种是我们……我们通常知道的学习方式。 有没有另外一种学习方式呢？ 因为那种通常的学习方式， 以通常的方式学习的含义 是去积累知识，并且 按照那些知识来行动， 因而那种学习使我们变得越来越机械。 我不知道你们有没有理解这些。我可以继续吗？ 这不是我在演讲。 我们是在一起分享这个问题。 所以，我能深入探讨，而请你也加入进来， 深入检视我们所说的学习的含义。 所以，不仅仅我有责任，你也有责任去讨论这个问题。
10:35 The ordinary everyday form of learning is to accumulate through experience, events and accidents and so on, a great deal of knowledge and that knowledge is always the past. There is no future knowledge. Right? And if we act according to that knowledge it must be action based on the past based on knowledge and that knowledge can be expanded infinitely or to a certain extent, but it will always be limited it will always become a routine, mechanical. So we are asking if there is another way of learning. Learning through accumulation of knowledge and acting according to the accumulation of knowledge you understand? - acting and acquiring knowledge from that action or having acquired knowledge through various forms, act from that. You follow? Do you understand? Am I making myself clear?

Q: Yes. 		那种每天进行的通常的学习方式， 是通过经验、事件、事故等 积累大量的知识， 而那种知识总是过去的， 没有未来的知识。 对吗？ 所以如果我们根据那些知识来行动， 那种行动就肯定是基于过去、 基于知识的， 并且那些知识能被不断扩展， 或者扩展到某个程度，但它总是有限的， 它总是会变成一种呆板的例行公事。 所以我们要问是否存在另一种学习方式。 通过积累知识来学习， 并且根据知识的积累来行动， 你理解吗？——行动并且从那个行动中获取知识， 或者通过各种形式获得了知识，并依据那些知识去行动。 你跟上了吗？你明白吗？ 我表达清楚了吗？

问：是的。
12:08 K: That is, I accumulate knowledge about science about technology, doctors and so on, accumulate it. And then from that accumulation I act. Or act and through that action learn. And having learnt a great deal through action that also becomes knowledge. So both are the same essentially: acquire knowledge and then act act and from that action accumulate, which becomes knowledge. So essentially both are the same. Both tend to become mechanical. If this is clear then the question is: is there a way of learning which is non-mechanistic? I don't know if you are interested in all this. To find that out we must be very clear that the mechanistic activity of accumulated knowledge and the whole movement of that, one must be very, very clear in oneself. Can we proceed? Please, as we are talking over together find out how you learn whether this learning is becoming more and more, more mechanistic. You hear me, the speaker, read about it, listen to tapes, learn accumulate knowledge and then say 'Well, I am going to practice that' Therefore that practise becomes mechanistic. 克：那就是，我积累关于科学、技术、 医疗等的知识，积累起来。 然后我根据那些积累去行动。 或者，行动并通过那个行动来学习。 所以通过行动学到了很多东西， 那也变成了知识。 所以两者从根本上是一样的： 获得知识然后行动， 行动并从行动中积累，再变成知识。 所以两者从根本上是一回事， 都趋于机械。 如果明确了这点，那接下来的问题是： 是否存在一种不机械的学习方式？ 我不知道你对所有这些是不是感兴趣。 要找出答案我们就必须非常清楚 那种积累知识的机械活动 及其整个运动过程，你自己必须非常清楚。 我们能继续吗？ 拜托，既然我们是在一起讨论， 所以要搞清楚你是怎样学习的， 这种学习是不是在变得越来越机械。 你听到我说，听这个讲话者说，读书、听录音、学习， 积累知识，然后说： “哦，我要去练习那个。” 所以那种练习变得机械。
14:20 Now we are asking: is there a different movement which is not mechanistic? - which is also learning but it is not accumulated knowledge and acting from that. Right? Is this clear?

Q: Yes. 		而我们要问：是否存在一种不同的运动， 它并不机械？——那仍然是学习， 但不是积累知识然后依照知识去行动。 对吗？ 这点清楚了吗？

问：是的。
14:41 Q: Sir, part of that mechanistic process might be an attempt to destroy the knowledge that you have accumulated. 问：先生，那个机械过程的一部分 也许是为了打破你所积累知识的 一种尝试。
14:51 K: Yes, which is still mechanistic. You try to get rid of that past knowledge which you accumulated you say that is not the way to learn so you learn in a different form but yet accumulate. 克：是的，那仍然是机械的。 你努力摆脱你过去积累的知识， 你说那不是正确的学习方式， 所以你采取不同的方式去学习，但仍然积累。
15:04 Q: Yes. 问：是的。
15:06 K: This accumulation process goes on all the time. So we are asking, please: is there a different way of learning which is not accumulative which is not mechanistic, which is not all the time functioning on the past movement. Right? We are going to find that out. Do please enquire, question challenge all the rest of it for yourself and find out. 克：那个积累的过程一直在进行。 所以我们要问，请问： 是否存在一种不同的学习方式，不积累、 不机械，不是 一直在过去的基础上运转。 对吗？我们要找出答案。 请务必亲自探询、质疑、 挑战这一切并找出答案。
15:37 We said very clearly, action and then knowledge knowledge and action are both essentially the same. Now we are asking: is there a different learning? Don't jump to conclusion don't say spontaneity, don't say it is intuition. Don't let's be caught in words. Is there a way of learning which is not mechanistic? 我们说得非常清楚，行动然后是知识、 知识和行动，两者本质上是一样的。 现在我们要问：是否存在一种不同的学习？ 不要急于下结论， 不要说自发性，不要说那是直觉。 我们不要被语言困住。 存在一种不机械的学习方式吗？
16:16 Q: Does silence come into this?

K: You see, you are jumping. Don't come It is as though you don't know. 		问：这里是不是涉及到了寂静？

克：你看，你就在急着跳过去。 不要……就好像你不知道。
16:25 Q: Through suffering in relationship. 问：通过关系中的痛苦。
16:30 K: Wait, madame we are coming to that. We are starting with, is there a question mark, therefore you don't know. So don't say it is silence, this or that. You really don't know. Say, that is the way to find out with a clean slate, you don't know, so you are going to find out. Are you quite sure you don't know? Or you pretend you don't know? (Laughter) No, please, for oneself, I am talking of oneself seriously. Do I pretend that I don't know or I actually don't know a way of learning perhaps learning then has a different meaning a way of learning which is not mechanistic, I don't know. I have to be terribly honest to myself then I can find out. But if I say, 'Yes, I don't know, but I have a few ideas about it, behind me', then you are not enquiring at all. 克：等一下，女士，我们就要谈到那一点了。 我们从是否存在—— 这里是问号——开始的，所以你不知道。 所以不要说，是寂静，是这个或那个。 你真的不知道。 我们说，这是找到答案的方式， 有着清白的记录，你不知道，所以你要去发现答案。 你非常确定你不知道吗？ 或者，你装作你不知道？（笑声） 请不要这样，为了你自己，我在很认真地说一个人自己。 我是装作不知道呢， 还是我确实不知道那种学习方式， 那么可能学习就会有一种不同的意义， 一种不机械的学习方式，我不知道。 我必须对自己非常诚实，然后我才能有所发现。 但如果我说，“是的，我不知道，但关于这个问题我背后 有些想法，” 那么，你就完全没有在探询。
17:53 So can we start honestly by saying I really don't know? Which is rather difficult because when you don't know you are looking you are trying to find out if you know. You understand my question? When you say I don't know but there is always the desire to find out or expect to be told or project some hidden hope and that becomes an idea and say, 'Yes, I begin to capture it' So if you can be free of all that and say 'I actually do not know', then you are curious you are really curious, like a young boy or a girl learning for the first time. You have got it? No, no, see what has happened. Do watch yourself sir, don't look at me or anyone watch yourself, which is, when you say 'I really don't know', what has taken place? Your mind is not actively thinking out how to find out. Right? Are we meeting each other in this point? Say for instance, I really don't know which means I have no hope of finding it I have no conclusion, I have no motive. This is very important, when I say I don't know in that is implied having no motive whatsoever. Because motive then gives a direction and then I have lost it. So I must be very, very clear and terribly honest in myself to say, I really don't know. Wait sir, listen to it carefully. I really don't know, then what has taken place in my mind? 所以我们能不能诚实地开始，说我确实不知道？ 这相当困难， 因为当你不知道你就会寻找， 你就会努力去发现你是不是知道。 你理解我的问题吗？ 当你说我不知道， 却总是存有弄清楚的愿望， 或者期望被告知， 或者投射一些隐藏的期望，那随后变成了一个想法， 说，“是的，我开始抓住它了。” 所以如果你能摆脱所有这些，并说 “我确实不知道”，那你就是好奇的， 你是真的好奇，像一个男孩 或一个女孩第一次学习那样。 你理解了吗？不，没有，看看发生了什么。 一定要观察自己，先生，不要看我或任何人， 观察你自己，那就是，当你说 “我确实不知道”时，发生了什么？ 你的头脑不急于想着怎么去发现。 对吗？ 我们都同意这点吗？ 比如说，我确实不知道， 那意味着，我没有希望找到它， 我没有结论，我没有动机。 这非常重要，当我说我不知道， 那意味着没有任何动机。 因为动机会提供一个方向， 然后我就失去了那种状态。 所以，我必须非常非常清楚， 并且内心非常真诚地说，我确实不知道。 稍等，先生，请仔细听。 我确实不知道，那么我的头脑中发生了什么？
20:33 Q: Nothing. 问：什么也没有。
20:35 K: Find out, don't answer quickly. 克：搞清楚，不要这么快回答。
20:45 Hasn't it broken away from the old tradition? You understand? The old mechanistic tradition. When I say, I really don't know I have moved out of that field altogether. Right? 难道没有打破旧的传统吗？ 你理解吗？ 那个旧的机械的传统。 当我说，我确实不知道， 我已经彻底离开了那个传统领域。 对吗？
21:04 Q: Although I don't think that one's thinking in terms of not knowing a new way of learning. All that one knows is that the conflict which mechanistic knowledge causes just that - one doesn't know any more. And one can see that one doesn't know how to get over this conflict. 问：尽管这样，我不认为按照不知道的方式去思考 是一种新的学习方式。 你知道的只是 机械的知识导致的冲突， 仅此而已——你不知道别的东西了。 并且你能发现你不知道 怎样克服这种冲突。
21:32 K: No, we are not talking of conflict yet sir. We will come to that in a minute. We are talking about: is there a different process of learning? If you don't know it - I don't know it and I actually say 'I don't know it' - what has happened? 克：不，先生，我们还没谈到冲突。 我们一会儿会谈到。 我们在探讨： 是否存在一种不同的 学习过程？ 如果你不知道——我不知道， 并且我确实说“我不知道”——那发生了什么？
21:57 Q: My mind then says if I don't know it I am empty. 问：我的头脑就会说，如果我不知道我就空了。
22:03 K: Oh, for god's sake! How silly people are. 克：噢，看在上帝的份上！ 人们多么愚蠢啊。
22:12 Q: Why is it stupid? (Laughter) 问：为什么笨呢？（笑声）
22:19 K: I didn't say stupid, I said silly. (Laughter) Because we are not paying attention, you've gone: it is empty - is it empty? Or is it so tremendously free of that - mechanistic it is totally awake because it is intensely curious to find out. You see the difference? The mind that says, 'I don't know' wait, let me take an example. Do you know what God is? Of course you have beliefs, you have dogmas all kinds of conditioning, but actually you don't know that. You can invent about it, you can think about it you can argue about it, or be against it but the actual fact: you don't know. So you start with not knowing in order to find out. 克：我没有说笨，我说的是愚蠢。（笑声） 因为我们没有留心，你跑题了： 它是空的。——它是空的吗？ 或者它彻底摆脱了那个——机械性， 它是完全清醒的， 因为它非常好奇，想要去发现。 你看到其中的区别了吗？ 那个说“我不知道”的头脑， 等一下，让我举个例子。 你知道上帝是什么吗？ 当然，你有信仰，你有教条， 有各种各样的制约，但实际你不知道那个。 你能就它进行虚构，你能思考它， 你能为它辩护，或者反对它， 但实际情况是：你不知道。 所以你从“不知道”出发才能去发现。
23:29 Q: May I ask you sir do you always start with not knowing when you come to speak do you always start with saying that I don't know let's find out today, let's find out now'? 问：请允许我问你，先生， 当你来讲话的时候总是从“不知道”开始， 你是不是总是在开始的时候说：我不知道， 让我们今天弄清楚，让我们现在去发现？
23:41 K: Yes, that is what I am saying now. 克：是的，那就是我正在说的。
23:43 Q: Is this what you do when you come when you come into this tent, is this what you do? Are you completely free of what you know before? 问：当你来到这里，当你来到这个帐篷的时候， 这是你所做的事情吗？ 你是否完全摆脱了你以前知道的一切？
23:52 K: Please I don't prepare talks, I don't do anything I just come and I spill out. (Laughter) I have prepared talks, written them all out carefully and so on and so on, and one day somebody suggested throw away all your notes and talk. So I did, and began that way. 克：拜托，我并不为讲话做准备，我什么事情也不做， 我就是进来然后开始滔滔不绝的。（笑声） 我曾经准备过讲话，非常仔细地写出来 等等，等等，而一天有个人建议说， 丢掉你所有的笔记，就这么开讲。 我这么做了，就这么开始了。
24:22 Q: There is no difference though, is there, really? There isn't a lot of difference between having it written down on paper and having it written down inside. 问：还是没有什么区别吗，真的没区别吗？ 写在纸上和写在心里 没有太多区别。
24:30 K: No. I don't 克：不，我没写。
24:31 Q: The question hasn't been answered. 问：问题还没有得到回答。
24:35 K: I am doing it now (laughs). Please - you follow? When you say actually you don't know you have stopped the mechanistic process of learning, haven't you? So your mind is not empty it is free from that in which it has been functioning and therefore it is now in a state of acute attention learning, acute state, free from that. Then what takes place? 克：我现在就在回答（笑）。拜托——你理解了吗？ 当你真的说你不知道的时候， 你已经停止了机械的学习过程，不是吗？ 所以你的头脑不是空的， 它摆脱了它曾经的运作方式， 所以它现在处于一种敏锐的关注状态， 学习的、敏锐的状态，摆脱了那种模式。 然后会发生什么呢？
25:26 Q: Silence.

Q: Hunger. (Laughter) 		问：寂静。

问：渴望。（笑声）
25:29 Q: Sir, the mind gets bored. 问：先生，头脑变得无聊。
25:33 Q: Bored? 问：无聊？
25:35 K: Do try it, please try it, please do try it as we are talking here do it, in the sense attempt to find out. 克：务必试一下，请试一下，我们讨论的时候请务必现场就试一下， 带着尝试去发现的感觉去做做看。
25:45 Q: Enquiry.

K: Yes. What does enquiry mean? Enquiry implies that you must be free from your prejudice from your hypothetical conclusions from any form of opinion so that your mind is free to move. In the same way if you understand the whole nature of this mechanistic acquisition of knowledge then if you put it in its right place you are free from it. And you are then capable of complete attention, aren't you? When there is complete attention is there a learning? No, please this requires a little bit of going into. 		问：探询。

克：是的。 探询意味着什么？ 探询意味着你必须摆脱你的偏见， 摆脱你假设的结论， 摆脱任何形式的观点，这样你的头脑才能自由活动。 同样地，如果你理解了 这种获取知识的机械方式的整个本质， 然后如果你把它放在正确的位置上，你就摆脱了它的束缚。 然后你就能全神贯注了，不是吗？ 当全神贯注的时候是不是就有了一种学习？ 不，请注意，这里需要更深入一点儿。
26:48 I may be rather stupid this morning and so please forgive me if I keep on persisting in this thing but perhaps we will come back to it a little later. 今天上午我可能很愚蠢， 所以请原谅我，如果我一直在盯着这个事情， 但可能我们过会儿会再回到这个问题上。
27:02 The next question in that is involved: can I observe myself through relationship? Can I know myself fundamentally, basically all the reactions, all the nuances the subtleties of myself in relationship. Right? That is the question that was raised. So we have to enquire what do we mean by 'relationship' the word itself. To be related, to be in contact to be not physically intimate but, not only that but to have a relationship at the same level at the same moment, at the same intensity then there is a relationship. Right? There is a relationship between a man and woman or a friend and another, or a boy and girl when they meet not merely physically only but much more which is when they meet at the same level at the same moment, with the same intensity there is actual relationship because they are meeting at the same level. Right? That can be called a real, true relationship. 其中牵涉到的下一个问题是： 我能不能通过关系观察我自己？ 我能不能从根本上了解我自己， 了解关系中的所有反应、 所有微妙的细节。 对吗？ 那就是刚才提出的问题。 所以我们必须探询我们说的“关系”这个词本身 意味着什么。 相关，有联系， 不是身体上的亲密，不仅如此， 而且在同一层面、同一时刻、以同样的强度 有一种联系， 那么就存在一种关系。 对吗？ 在男人和女人或两个朋友之间 或男女朋友之间存在一种关系， 当他们不仅身体相遇，而且有更多的接触， 那就是当他们在同一层面、 在同一时刻、以同样的强度相遇， 此时就存在着真正的关系， 因为他们在同样的层面相遇了。 对吗？ 那可以被称为一种真正的真实的关系。
28:47 Now, one's relationship with another is based on memory. Right? Would you accept it? On the various images, pictures, conclusions I have drawn about you and you have drawn about me. The various images that I have about you wife, husband, girl or boy or friend and so on. So there is always image-making. Right? This is simple, this is normal, this is actually what goes on. When one is married or lives with a girl or a boy every incident, every word, every action creates an image - no? Are we clear on this point? Don't agree with me please I am not trying to persuade you to anything but actually you can see it for yourself. A word is registered, if it is pleasant you purr it is nice, if it is unpleasant you immediately shrink from it and that creates an image. The pleasure creates an image, the shrinking the withdrawal creates an image. So our actual relationship with each other is based on various subtle forms of pictures, images and conclusions. That's right? 而现在，人与人之间的关系是以回忆为基础的。 对吗？ 你接受这种关系吗？ 基于我对你、你对我 得出的很多意象、画面、结论。 我有关于你—— 妻子、丈夫、男女朋友等等的各种意象。 所以总有一个意象制造的过程。 对吗？ 这很简单，很常见，这就是实际发生的事情。 当你结婚了或者与女朋友或男朋友一起生活， 每个事件、每句话、每个行动都制造意象——不是吗？ 我们清楚这点了吗？ 拜托不要同意我的说法， 我不想劝你相信任何事情， 但实际上你自己就能看到。 一句话被记了下来，如果令你愉快，你就咕哝着说： 那不错，如果话不中听你马上就退缩回来， 并且产生了某个意象。 快乐制造意象，退缩、 躲避也制造意象。 所以我们彼此之间的实际关系是基于 各种形式微妙的画面、意象和结论的。 对吗？
30:36 Now I am asking: when that takes place what happens? The man creates the image about her and she creates an image about him. Whether in the office, whether in the field, or anywhere this relationship is essentially based on this formation of images. Right? This is a fact, isn't it? Can we go on from there. 那么我要问：当那些发生时接下来会发生什么？ 男人制造关于女人的意象， 并且她也制造对方的意象。 不论是在办公室、在田间，还是在任何地方， 这种关系本质上就是基于这些意象形成的。 对吗？ 这是事实，不是吗？我们能从这儿继续吗？
31:13 Q: Yes.

K: Then what takes place? You have an image about her and she has an image about you doesn't matter where it is, in the office in the factory, in the field, in every way labour, there is this image-making all the time. So when there is an image like that she has and you have, then in there there is division and then the whole conflict begins. Right? Where there is division between two images there must be conflict. Right? 		问：好的。

克：接下来会发生什么呢？ 你有她的意象并且她有你的意象， 在什么地方无关紧要，在办公室、 在工厂、在田间，在每种工作方式中 一直存在这种意象的制造过程。 所以当抱有那样的意象， 她有你也有，那么这里面就存在分裂， 从而整个冲突就开始了。 对吗？ 当两个意象之间 存在分裂，就肯定存在冲突。 对吗？
32:06 Q: Why has image become so important to us? 问：为什么意象对我们变得如此重要？
32:09 K: We will go into it, madame. First go into it step by step, not say 'Why' have you got this image about your brother, your sister your husband, your wife, your father, whatever it is? Then see when there is this image there is certainly a division: the Jew and the Arab, the Hindu, the Muslim the Christian, the Communist - you follow? it is the same phenomena. Right? When that takes place there must be fundamentally conflict. The husband or the boy or the girl may go off to work and there he has created images about himself: his position, his worth, his competition and all the rest of it comes home and says, 'Darling how are you?' and again he has got his image and she has hers. So there is conflict. So it is a basic law that where there is division between people there must be conflict. Full stop. Right? The man may say to the woman or the woman may say to the man 'I love you' but that may merely be sensory love sexual love but basically they are not related at all. They may wear rings and hug each other and sleep in the same bed and live in the same house but basically he is pursuing his ambitions his greed, all the rest of it, and she also. Right? So basically they never meet at the same level at the same time, with the same intensity. Cannot. Right? Do we see this? not accept the words that are spoken by the speaker, that is worthless. Actually this is so in daily life. And then we can say to each other, 'I love you. You are so beautiful' - you are this and you are that 'put more colour on your hair' (laughter) you know, play with all that kind of stuff. 克：我们会探讨这个问题的，女士。 首先我们一步一步深入进去，不要说“为什么”， 对你的兄弟、你的姐妹你有这种意象吗？ 对你的丈夫、你的妻子、你的父亲或无论什么人？ 然后看到当有这种意象的时候 必然会存在一种分裂。 犹太人和阿拉伯人，印度教徒、穆斯林， 基督教徒、共产主义者——你理解吗？ 是同样的现象。 对吗？ 当那种情况发生时，必然存在根本的冲突。 丈夫或男朋友或女朋友可能出去工作， 并且在那儿他建立了自己的形象： 他的职位，他的价值，他的竞争，诸如此类， 然后下班回到家，说“亲爱的，你好吗？” 他还是有自己的意象，她也有她的意象。 因而就存在冲突。 这是一个基本规律： 只要人们之间存在分裂，就肯定存在冲突。 句号。对吗？ 那个人可能对女人说 或者女人可能对男人说“我爱你”， 但那可能只是感官上的爱、 性爱，但在本质上他们完全不相关。 他们可能带着戒指并相互拥抱， 睡在同一张床上，同居一个屋檐下， 但基本上他在追求他的野心、 他的贪婪，诸如此类，而她也是如此。 对吗？ 所以基本上他们从来没有在同一层面上、 在同一时间、以同样的强度相遇。 办不到。 对吗？ 我们明白这点吗？ 不要接受讲话者所说的话，那没有价值。 实际上在日常生活中就是如此。 然后我们能对彼此说，“我爱你， 你很漂亮”——你这样你那样， “给你的头发多上点颜色”（笑声） 你知道，玩所有那些把戏。
34:57 Now why do we create these images? Why do you create an image about your girl or your wife or your husband, or your boy, why? 那么，我们为什么要制造这些意象呢？ 为什么你制造一个你女朋友或妻子、 或你的丈夫、男朋友的意象呢，为什么？
35:24 Q: I think it is survival.

K: Survival? 		问：我认为是为了生存。

克：生存？
35:29 Q: I think it is through fear. Basically because you didn't look at something you feared. 问：我认为，那是因为恐惧。 基本上是因为你不想看到你害怕的东西。
35:35 K: He says that it is survival. 克：他说那是因为生存。
35:37 Q: Isn't to guard one's ego. One doesn't want to be intruded on. One doesn't want someone close, one's frightened to lose one's ego. 问：难道不是为了保护一个人的自我吗？ 人不想被打扰。 人不想让别人靠近，人害怕失去自我。
35:47 K: Oh! Is that so?

Q: I don't know. 		克：噢！ 是这样吗？

问：我不知道。
35:51 K: (Laughs) What sir? 克：（笑）什么，先生？
35:55 Q: Because we don't see the whole of the fact. 问：因为我们没有看到全部的事实。
35:59 K: How can I see the whole, if that is what you are saying the whole beauty of relationship the whole nature of love and all that when we are so concerned about our beastly little selves all the time? 克：我怎么才能看到整体，如果那是你要说的， 看到关系全部的美、 爱的整个本质以及那一切， 当我们一直如此关心我们渺小无比的自我的时候？
36:22 Q: Isn't it because we are registering all the time as well? 问：难道不是因为我们一直在记录吗？
36:27 K: No, madame we have been through all that I want to forget the registration. Look at it anew. Why do I, or why does one create an image about another? Why do you create an image about the speaker? (Laughs) 克：不，女士，我们已经讨论过那些了， 我想忘掉那个记录的事情， 重新去审视。 我为什么，或人为什么为另外一个人建立意象？ 你为什么制造一个讲话者的意象？（笑）
36:49 Q: It is lack of attention. 问：因为缺乏关注。
36:51 K: Just go into it sir. Why do you create an image about your girl or your husband, boy and all that, why? 克：深入进去，先生。 你为什么为你女朋友、 或你的丈夫、男朋友及所有那些人建立意象，为什么？
36:58 Q: To remember.

Q: To be dependent. 		问：为了记住。

问：为了依靠。
36:59 Q: Because it helps us. 问：因为那对我们有帮助。
37:01 K: Do look at it before you answer. See what you do first. If I may gently suggest, see the fact of it first not say well, this is it, this is that. Just see if it is so. 克：在你回答以前一定要看一看。 看看你首先做什么。 如果我可以建议的话，首先看到事实， 不要说，好吧，是这样，是那样。 只是去看一看是不是这样。
37:17 Q: We want to be recognised in some way or another. 问：我们想以这种或那种方式得到认可。
37:26 Q: Isn't it because I'd like to know what is going to happen tomorrow. 问：难道不是因为我想知道明天要发生什么吗？
37:32 K: Do look at it sir. You are married, you have got a girl, or a boy, a husband. This image-making goes on. And I am asking why. Take time - a little. Please. You don't know, I don't know, let's find out. 克：确实去看一看，先生。 你结婚了，你有个女朋友，或男朋友、丈夫。 这种意象的制造过程在进行。 而我在问为什么。 不用着急——请花点儿时间。 你不知道，我不知道，让我们找出答案。
37:57 Q: It is very pleasant to have an image. It is possession.

K: Is it? Is it very pleasant to have an image? 		问：有意象是很快乐的事情。 那是一种拥有。

克：是吗？ 有意象很快乐吗？
38:07 Q: It is very gratifying. 问：它非常令人满足。
38:09 K: Is it very pleasant to have an image? Please sir - an image? 克：有意象令人非常愉快吗？ 拜托，先生——一个意象？
38:15 Q: Image is a dirty word.

K: All right. I won't use the word image - use some other word. 		问：意象是个不好的词。

克：好吧。 我不用意象这个词——改用其他的词。
38:22 Q: Fantasy. 问：幻觉。
38:24 Q: With familiarity - we take things for granted we are at all times preoccupied rather then attentive. 问：有熟悉感——我们认为事情理所当然， 我们总是先入为主而不太注意。
38:34 K: I want to find out why I create the image about my wife - if I have one. Is it habit? Is it convenient? Is it immemorial conditioning? Is it traditional that I do this brought over from the genes and so on and so on that instinctively I make an image about you? 克：我想要弄清楚 我为什么制造关于我妻子的意象——如果我有妻子的话。 是习惯吗？ 是为了方便吗？ 是远古以来的制约吗？ 我这么做是传统做法， 来自于基因遗传，等等，等等， 我本能地制造了一个关于你的意象？
39:21 Q: Does it matter why?

K: Find out. So I am saying is it this tremendous habit in which we live? 		问：为什么有那么重要吗？

克：搞清楚。 所以我要说，这是不是我们生活所处的巨大习惯？
39:33 Q: No. It is influence. 问：不是。是影响。
39:42 K: Yes sir. Include that, include that. Influence. One is so accustomed to being influenced which is environment and all the rest of it. So I say, is it habit is it a tradition that has been handed down, unconsciously from race to race, from generation to generation? Is it a thing which I have accepted as my arm as I accept a leg, it is part of me? 克：是的，先生。包括那个，包括那个，影响。 人如此习惯于被 被环境及诸如此类所影响。 所以我说，是不是因为习惯， 是不是一种无意识地传承下来的传统， 从人种到人种，一代一代地继承下来的？ 那是不是一种我已经像我的胳膊、 我的腿一样接受了的东西，是不是我的一部分？
40:21 Q: Sir, does that really answer the question why, though. That is just saying that we do have an image but why do we have an image? 问：先生，可是，那是否真正回答了那个为什么的问题。 那只是说我们确实有意象， 但我们为什么有意象呢？
40:30 K: I am going into that sir. 克：我就要深入那个问题了，先生。
40:32 Q: People, please, follow the speaker, don't ask. 问：请大家听讲话者说，不要提问了。
40:36 K: Comment, madame? (Laughter) 克：要发表意见吗，女士？（笑声）
40:41 Q: I think it is a continuation of the conditioning that we ourselves have received. 问：我认为那是我们自身已经接受的 制约的一种延续。
40:49 K: It is part of our conditioning inherited from father to son and so on, so on generation after generation. So just let's find out. So put all this together habit, immemorial tradition desire for a sense of nearness and yet withdrawal - all that. Is that why we do it?

Q: Security. 		克：那是我们所受制约的一部分， 从父亲到儿子等等等等 一代又一代继承来的。 那么，让我们来弄清楚。 所以，将所有这些集中起来 ——习惯、远古的传统， 渴望一种亲近的感觉却又退缩——所有这些。 那就是我们为什么那么做的原因吗？

问：安全。
41:27 K: Do look at it, take a second, darling, please take a second. Or is it that we want to be certain of the girl or the boy, the husband, certain of her? Certain to possess her, it is mine and not yours. All that is involved in it. Desire for certainty - it is my wife, my girl my boy, my husband, I am sure. That is, it gives me certainty in my relationship with another. I know my wife - which is the most absurd statement. It gives me a feeling that I possess something and I am sure of that possession. So habit, tradition, a thousand, million years of tradition carried from generation to generation to generation. Then the desire to possess to be dominated love to be possessed and love to be dominated a neurotic state and the desire to be certain: it is my house, my table, my pen, my wife. Right? What do you say to all this? 克：确实看一看，花一秒钟，亲爱的，请花点儿时间。 或者因为我们想对女朋友、 或男朋友、丈夫，想对她有把握？ 确保能拥有她，是我的而不是你的。 所有那些都牵涉其中。 渴望确定性——是我的妻子、我的女朋友、 我的男朋友、我的丈夫，我确定。 就是说，在我与另一个人的关系中，它给我确定性。 我了解我的妻子——那是最荒谬的表述。 那给我一种我拥有某种东西的感觉， 并且我确定那种拥有。 所以，习惯、传统，一千年、百万年的传统， 一代一代地传递下来。 还有，渴望拥有、 渴望被支配、 喜欢被拥有、被支配， 一种神经质的状态， 并且渴望确定： 这是我的房子、我的桌子、我的桌子、我的笔、我的妻子。 对吗？ 对这一切你会怎么说？
43:31 Q: We should be free of all that. 问：我们应该摆脱这一切。
43:39 K: We should be, or we are? 克：我们应该这样，还是我们是这样的？
43:42 Q: We should be.

K: Oh! I should be on the top of the Himalayas, but I am not! (Laughter) 		问：我们应该这样。

克：噢！ 我应该在喜马拉雅山顶，但我没有！（笑声）
43:53 Q: How can I recognise? 问：我怎么能认识到？
43:55 K: How can we talk over together if we are not both moving in the same direction! Please. The 'should be' is non-existent 'what is' is the only fact. 克：如果我们两个人不朝同一个方向走， 我们怎么能一起讨论呢！ 拜托。 那个“应该如何”是不存在的， “现在如何”是唯一的事实。
44:12 Q: Can one not accept this state 问：人可以不接受这个说法吗？
44:17 K: Why should I you see, you see I can't 克：为什么我应该……你看，你看我不能
44:21 Q: by understanding it?

K: No, madame we are doing it. We are doing it step by step, going into this. I am certain about my name, I am certain about my form physical form, I am certain I am qualified mechanically or a scientist, or professor - I am certain, it's my profession my career as a military, or navy, or a doctor it is my career, and I am certain. So I want to be certain in my relationship - no? And when that certainty is shaken then begins the trouble - ends up in divorce or a separation, or whatever you like to call it. 		问：通过理解它？

克：不，女士，我们正在这么做。 我们正一步步地这么做，深入这个问题。 我对我的名字很确定，我对我的外形、 身体形状很确定，我确信我是个称职的机械师、 或科学家、教授——我很确定，那是我的专业、 我的职业，作为一个军人、海员或医生， 那是我的职业，并且我确定。 所以我想在我的关系中也感到确定——不是吗？ 而当那种确定感被动摇， 麻烦就开始了——以离婚 或者分手而结束，或者随你怎么叫它。
45:24 So these are the factors. That we create these images in order to be sure, certain in order to possess and in that possession feel the power, the pleasure, the strength of that possession. And there is this inherited a thousand million years or a million years of man's desire to hold somebody and not let go, and so on, so on. These are the factors in daily life - no? 所以这些是因素。 我们制造这些意象，为了确信、确定， 为了拥有并且在那种拥有中 感到力量、快乐、拥有那些东西的力量。 并且还有这种传承了千百万年 或百万年的人类的欲望， 要抓住某个人不放手，等等，等等。 这些是日常生活中的因素——不是吗？
46:06 Q: So that implies something is just fixed, doesn't it? 问：所以那意味着有些事情就是被固定了，不是吗？
46:09 K: Yes sir.

Q: We also make use 		克：是的，先生。

问：我们也利用这点。
46:11 K: That is right. I want to be certain. I want to be sure when I come back from the office she is there. And when she comes back from the office she wants to be quite sure I will turn up too! (Laughter) This is the game we have been playing infinitely, in varieties of ways. 克：对，我想感到确定。 我想确信当我下班回家，她在那里等着我。 并且当她下班回家， 她希望非常确定我也会出现！（笑声） 这就是我们没完没了地以各种方式玩的游戏。
46:36 Q: Why do we need the certainty? 问：我们为什么需要那种确定性？
46:38 K: We are going to go into that. Go slowly sir. 克：我们就要谈到那点，先生，慢慢来。
46:43 Q: I am afraid I lose control. 问：我害怕我会失控。
46:47 K: You are afraid to lose control over her? I hope your wife is there! (Laughter) 克：你害怕控制不了她吗？ 我希望你的妻子还在！（笑声）
47:05 Q: (Inaudible) 问：（听不清）
47:08 K: Look sir, we are talking about something so tremendously serious. Whether it is possible, knowing this knowing these are facts, not imagination, not ideas not some conclusions which you have got because I have talked about it but these are daily facts. Now the question is: in that there is no possibility of relationship. You may sleep together, you may hold hands together do all kinds of things together but actually there is no relationship. That is a fact. And we don't want to acknowledge it. Because the moment you acknowledge it then begins doubt you've frightened, nervous and all that begins. Now, please just listen. 克：请看先生，我们正在讨论非常严肃的事情。 有没有可能了解这点， 了解这些都是事实，不是想象，不是想法， 不是一些因为我说过了所以你得出的结论， 而是这些都是日常的事实。 那么问题是： 在那里面关系不可能存在。 你们可以一起睡觉，你们可以手拉手， 一起做各种事情， 但实际上没有关系。 那是事实。 而我们不想承认这点。 因为一旦你承认了，那么怀疑就开始了， 你被吓住了，感到紧张，诸如此类的事情就开始了。 那么，请听好。
48:20 Now, can I learn about myself in my relationship with another? That is the question we began with, that is the question that was put. In that relationship I can observe my reactions. Right? I like and I don't like. She said a nasty word, he was so pleasant, and so on my reactions I can watch. Those reactions are myself, aren't they? They are not separate from me both sensory as well as nervous, psychological responses. Right? I am learning about myself tremendously as I go along I have seen, oh, infinitely what I am doing what I have done, what I am doing, what I will do tomorrow if I continue this mechanistic way of behaviour. Right? And death comes and you say, 'Darling, I am leaving you' She feels terribly lonely, miserable, unhappy, tears finds out suddenly she is left alone, or he is left alone. And then he can't face it, he goes off to some entertainment or goes off with another woman, or boy or whatever it is, or becomes tremendously religious. (Laughter) 那么，我能不能在我与他人的关系中了解自己？ 那是我们开始的问题，那是当时提出的问题。 在那种关系中我能观察自己的反应。 对吗？ 我喜欢和我不喜欢。 她说了句粗俗的话，他那么高兴，等等， 我能观察我的反应。 那些反应就是我自己，不是吗？ 它们和我不是分开的， 既包括感官反应，也包括神经和心理反应。 对吗？ 如此下去我会非常多地了解自己， 噢，我从极大的程度上看到了我所做的事情， 我已经做的、我正在做的、我明天将要做的事情， 如果我继续这种机械的行为方式的话。 对吗？ 而当死亡来临时，你说，“亲爱的，我要离开你了。” 她感到非常孤单、痛苦、不快、眼泪滂沱， 突然发现她被遗弃了，或他被遗弃了。 然后他无法面对，他去参加某些娱乐活动， 或者出去找别的女人或男朋友， 或者无论什么人，或者变得虔信宗教。（笑声）
50:11 What a game we are playing with each other. Right sir? So I see this is a fact. I have learnt a tremendous lot about myself in my relationship with another. Then the factor arises: can this image-making stop? You understand my question? Can this momentum of the past of all that tremendous momentum with tremendous volume behind it like a river with a great volume of water rushing can all this image-making tradition desire for all that end, without a single conflict? You understand my question? Are you interested in this?

Q: Yes. 		我们彼此在玩多么棒的游戏啊！ 对吗，先生？ 那么，我看到这是事实。 我从与他人的关系中 非常深地了解了自己。 那么，这个因素就浮现出来：这种意象制造过程能不能停止？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 来自过去的这种势头能不能停止？ 所有那些汹涌的势头， 背后有着巨大的容量， 就像一条汹涌澎湃的河流， 所有这些制造意象的传统、 对那一切的渴望能不能停止，而没有一点儿冲突？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 你对此感兴趣吗？

问：是的。
51:28 K: What will you pay for it? (Laughter) That is all you can do. By paying something you think you will get it. 克：你准备为此付多少钱？（笑声） 那就是你所能做的一切。 通过付出什么你认为你就能得到。
51:43 Now how can this mechanism of image-making not just image-making, the desire for certainty the tradition, the whole structure of that, can that end? Right? Are you asking that question? Or am I asking, and (laughs) putting my question onto you? If you put that question to yourself do you say, 'I don't know therefore I will find out'? Or you are already struggling to find out? How can this image-making come to an end. Which means the ending of registration not to register a word that she or he says the sneer, the insult, the nagging all that, not to register at all. Is that possible? Do you understand my question? Please don't go off to sleep or some I am asking this question, you have to answer it. 那么，这种意象制造的机制， 不仅是意象制造，对确定性的渴望，这种传统， 其整个结构，能终止吗？ 对吗？ 你在问这个问题吗？ 或者，我在问，然后（笑）把我的问题抛给你？ 如果你向自己提出那个问题， 你会说，“我不知道，所以我要找出答案”吗？ 或者你已经在努力去发现了？ 这种意象制造过程怎么能结束。 那就意味着记录的终止， 不记录她或他说的任何一句话， 嘲笑、侮辱、唠叨， 所有那些，完全不记录。 那是可能的吗？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 请不要打瞌睡或怎样， 我在问这个问题，你必须回答。
53:38 Q: No, it is not possible. I don't find it possible. 问：不，那不可能。我发现那是不可能的。
53:41 K: The lady says it is not possible therefore she has shut the door. 克：那位女士说不可能， 所以她已经关上了门。
53:46 Q: No, I haven't shut the door, but I find it impossible. 问：不，我没有关上门，但我发现那不可能。
53:48 K: Ah, the moment you say it is impossible it is not possible, or it is possible you have shut the door. It is like a man saying 'I can't do it' - finished. I am sure each of us can do it. I am certain, clear if you put your heart and your mind into this question. 克：啊，当你说不可能 或可能的时候，你已经关上了门。 就像一个人说，“我做不到”——结束了。 我确信我们每个人都能做到。 我很肯定、很清楚。 如果你将你的内心、你的头脑投入到这个问题中去的话。
54:23 When the wife or the girl, or the man or the husband says to you, 'You are rather stupid this morning' must you register that react to the word, to his feeling and watch your own reactions to the word and his feeling. You follow? Can you watch all this instantly? Or he says, 'You look very nice this morning' and you You follow? Go into it sir. Not to register at all. Now is this possible? Please we are talking about learning about oneself in relationship. And we see why we create this image and so on and therefore there is no actual relationship at all. There may be physical relationship. Psychologically, obviously you are totally divided. How can you be related and love another if you are ambitious? You can't. Or competitive, or this or that. So you have learnt a tremendous lot in enquiring into this relationship. You have come to the point now when we say: is this possible, to hear the word, not shut off hear the word, see the meaning of the word the significance of the word the expression on the face of the man or the woman who says it and your own reaction to all that, can you be aware of all that? 当妻子或女朋友、男人或丈夫 对你说，“今天上午你真愚蠢，” 你会记录那句话， 对那句话、对他的感受起反应， 观察你自己对那句话以及他的感受做出的反应。 你明白吗？ 你能即刻观察这一切吗？ 或者他说，“你今天上午很漂亮”，然后你……你明白吗？ 深入进去，先生。 完全不做记录。 那么，这可能吗？ 拜托，我们在讨论 在关系中认识自己。 并且我们看到了为什么我们会制造这种意象，等等， 因而完全没有真正的关系。 可能有身体上的关系。 在心理上，显然你们是完全分开的。 如果你野心勃勃，你怎么可能与别人有联结并去爱别人呢？ 你不能。 或者你争强好胜，或者这样那样。 所以，在探询这种关系的过程中， 你已经了解了很多。 现在你已经来到了那个点，当你说： 有没有可能听到那句话而不阻隔， 听到那句话，明白那句话的意义、 那句话的内涵， 看到说那句话的男人或女人的面部表情， 以及你对所有那些的反应，你能觉察到这一切吗？
56:47 Q: Sir, it seems that we are continually getting into this difficulty at this point of saying I don't know. Could we look at that and maybe it is the mechanism that builds the images that doesn't want to say 'I don't know'. It doesn't like the idea of saying it. 问：先生，在说我不知道的那一个点上， 好像我们还在继续落入这种困境之中。 我们能不能看看这个问题，而这也许就是 建立意象并且不想说“我不知道”的机制所在。 它不喜欢表达那样的想法。
57:04 K: No, don't keep on repeating, 'I don't know' then you are stuck.

Q: Yes. 		克：不，不要持续重复“我不知道，” 那样你就被卡住了。

问：是的。
57:08 K: But we started out by saying we create these images why we create these images is fairly clear. And we said, the next question is: can this image-making stop? Then I can say, 'I don't know'. Right? Because then your mind when you say you don't know is tremendously alert. 克：而我们开始的时候说过我们制造了这些意象， 我们为什么制造这些意象的原因是非常清楚的。 而且，我们说过，下一个问题是：这种意象制造过程能不能停止？ 然后，我可以说，“我不知道。” 对吗？ 因为当你说你不知道的时候，你的头脑是非常警觉的。
57:30 Q: So one has to be concerned to end the images. 问：所以人必须关注如何终止这些意象。
57:32 K: Yes. You are concerned to find out whether the image-making can stop. And you say it is not possible, or it is possible, you are stuck. But when you say 'I don't know, but I am moving'. When I say 'I don't know', I am not static. I am moving, I am tremendously active and full of energy to find out. I am not transmitting my energy to you, you are doing it yourself, please. That is a danger. (Laughs) So, is this possible? Which means to listen and not to register. 克：是的。 你热切地想要发现这种意象制造过程能不能停止。 而如果你说不可能或可能，你就被卡住了。 但当你说：“我不知道，但我在动着。” 当我说“我不知道”，我不是静止的。 我在运动着，我非常积极并且充满活力，我要去弄清楚。 我不是在传递我的能量给你，你是在亲自做，拜托。 那是一种危险。（笑） 那么，那可能吗？ 那意味着听而不记录。
58:24 Q: Sometimes you are paralysed. 问：有时你会麻痹无力。
58:27 K: No, there is no paralysis madame. You can't paralyse when your relationship with another is so tremendously important. All life is relationship. Not just you and me, it's a not only you and me, it is a global problem. So we have to meet it globally, not just 'Oh, I love my wife' - you follow? you and me, that is too little affair. When you understand the global issue then you will understand the little issue. But if you start with the little issue you won't understand the global thing global in the sense, the enormity of it. It concerns every human being wherever he may be. So I say now can I listen to the word see the expression, the gesture the contempt the arrogance and so on, on the face of the other and listen to it without any reaction? So now we will have to find out what you mean by listening. Are we interested in this? Can we go on? No, please I can go on, but you see I have spent my life from the age of fifteen at this. Right? So please, spend also an hour with this. 克：不，女士，没有麻痹。 当你与另外一个人的关系是如此重要时， 你不可能麻痹。 所有的生活都是关系。 不是只有你和我， 不仅你和我，这是一个全球性的问题。 所以我们必须以全球性的视角去面对，而不只是说 “噢，我爱我的妻子”——你理解吗？ 你和我，是太小的事情了。 当你理解了全球性的问题， 那么你就会理解那个小问题。 但如果你从那个小问题开始， 你就不会理解全球性的问题， 全球性指的是其巨大性。 它与任何地方的人都息息相关。 所以我说， 现在我能不能听到那个词、 看到那个表情、姿势、 另一人脸上的轻视、 傲慢等等， 听到它而没有任何反应？ 所以现在我们要弄清楚你说的“听”意味着什么。 我们对此感兴趣吗？ 我们能不能继续？ 不，拜托，我能继续，但是你看 我从十五岁就致力于此。 对吗？ 所以拜托你们，也在这上面花一个小时。
1:00:18 Can I listen. Therefore what does it mean to listen? Do you ever listen? Are you listening now? Please, you understand? Are you listening to what I am saying? No, I am not sure. Or you are listening to a conclusion which you have made about yourself? Or in listening you have already drawn a conclusion? Or you have abstracted from listening an idea and pursuing that idea? Therefore you are not actually listening. So are we listening now? That means you are listening without a single movement of thought because you are so tremendously concerned about this. If you are not well then you won't listen. If you are deeply, profoundly concerned about this then you will instinctively, naturally listen. And so are you listening from your experience are you listening to the word and not to the content of the word or are you listening, making an abstraction of what you are hearing into an idea and say, 'Yes, I have got it'? Which means then that you are listening without any movement any movement of thought, any movement of intention. Just listening. If that is so carefully please hear what I have to say if you can so listen when the boy or the girl or the wife, can you listen to that in the same way? You understand my question? You are finished. It is so terribly simple if you capture the simplicity of it. But intellectually we make a such a mess of everything. 我能不能听。 那么听意味着什么？ 你曾经倾听过吗？ 现在你在听吗？ 拜托，你明白吗？ 你在听我说的话吗？ 不，我不确定。 或者你在听 你已经对自己做出的一个结论？ 或者在听的过程中你已经得出了一个结论？ 还是你从聆听中抽象出一个理念 并且追寻那个理念？ 所以你实际上没有在倾听。 那么现在我们在听吗？ 那意味着你正不带有任何一点儿思想运动地听， 因为你极其关心这件事情。 如果你不是这样， 那么你就不会听。 如果你深深地从根本上关心这个问题， 那么你就会本能地、自然地听。 那么你是在根据你的经验来听吗， 你在听那个词 而不是听那个词的内容吗？ 或者你在听的时候，把你听到的抽象成一个概念， 并且说，“是的，我明白了”？ 而倾听意味着你在听的时候 不带有任何思想活动、任何意图。 只是在听。 如果是这样的话， 请仔细听我要说的话， 如果你能这样倾听的话，比如你的男朋友或女朋友 或者妻子，你能不能以同样的方式聆听他们呢？ 你理解我的问题吗？你就结束了。 如果你抓住了它的简单性，它就是如此的简单。 但我们自作聪明地把一切都变成了一片混乱。
1:03:01 So if there is the act of listening then there is no registration. The other day after the talk, one of the talks a man came up to me and said 'What a marvellous talk that was. Oh, it was excellent. It feels I have got it all' I listened to it very carefully. I have been told this for 50 years and if I keep on registering how marvellous it is I would be a cuckoo! (Laughter) So can you please find out? To listen to somebody saying nasty things or pleasurable things, so completely that there is no registration. Which means can you be so attentive at the moment the word is said that there is no centre which records? You understand my question? Have you ever been attentive? Attentive in the sense, giving all your attention all your energy, your heart, your mind, everything you have. When you do that there is no 'me' from which you are attentive, there is only attention. Right? In that attention there is no recording. It is only when there is inattention there is the centre which records. Got it? You've understood? 所以如果存在聆听的行动， 那就不存在记录。 前几天，讲话中的一场结束后， 一个人来到我面前，说“多么不可思议的讲话。 噢，太精彩了。感觉我全明白了。” 我非常仔细地听着。 五十年来一直有人这么跟我说， 而如果我持续记录“讲话多么不可思议”的话， 我就会成为一只布谷鸟！（笑声） 所以你能不能去弄清楚？ 听有人讲低俗的事情 或者愉快的事情，而完全没有记录。 那意味着你能不能如此留心， 以至于当那个词被说出来的时候，不存在进行记录的中心？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 你曾经全神贯注过吗？ 这里全神贯注的意思是，付出你全部的注意力、 你全部的能量、内心、头脑，你所有的一切。 当你那样做的时候就不存在 一个在关注的我，而只有关注本身。 对吗？ 在那种关注中，没有记录。 只有当漫不经心时， 才会有进行记录的中心。 明白吗？ 你理解了吗？
1:05:08 Q: So, there is no distraction.

K: No. Sir, there is no such thing as distraction. Please understand this. There is no such thing as distraction. You want to pay attention to that and you are distracted as one generally is. Which means what? You are not paying attention therefore there is no distraction. So realise that you are not attentive and therefore distraction. The moment you are aware that you are inattentive you are already attentive. Capture this, sir! There is no effort necessary in this. So it is possible not to register at all when the wife says something pleasant or unpleasant or a friend or a boy or a girl or a boy at the office, labour. Can you live that way? Not for one day or a few minutes can you live the entirety of your life that way? 		问：那样，就没有分心。

克：没有。 先生，不存在分心这回事。 请理解这点。 不存在分心这种事情。 你想注意那个， 而你思想不集中，就像人通常那样。 那意味着什么？ 你并没有关注， 所以分心并不存在。 所以要意识到你没有关注所以分心。 当你意识到你没关注的那一刻 你已经关注了。 掌握这点，先生。 这里不需要努力。 所以完全不记录是可能的， 当我的妻子说了一些令人愉快或不快的事， 或朋友或男友、女友或办公室、车间的同事说了什么。 你能那样生活吗？ 不是只过一天或几分钟， 你能毕生那样生活吗？
1:06:28 Q: Regardless of your age. 问：不论你的年龄如何。
1:06:38 K: Regardless of my age, or your age? (Laughter) I don't understand this. 克：不管我的年龄，还是你的年龄？（笑声） 我不理解这句话。
1:06:48 Q: Excuse me sir. When I am attentive in this way of which you speak is the attention limited to the thing to which I am attentive?

K: No. 		问：请原谅，先生。 当我以你说的这种方式去关注， 那种关注是否仅限于那件 我关注的事情呢？

克：不是。
1:07:01 Q: Or identified with.

K: No. Attention is attention, not limited to this or to that. I am attentive. There is attention. Not tension. (Laughter) When you are attentive there is no tension. Now wait a minute, now wait a minute, just look at it: the question was about learning and can one learn about oneself through relationship. We went into the whole thing step by step logically, reasonably, sanely. Now, just a minute, listen to this. We went into it very, very carefully, in detail. Now can you observe this whole thing as a whole not broken up little pieces. You understand my question? Can you have perception of the entirety of the structure? We have dealt bit by bit, fragment by fragment, or piece by piece. That means nothing personally to me, because that's but if you capture the whole thing then from that you can work details. But you cannot through details work to the whole. 		问：或者与其认同。

克：不。 关注就是关注，不局限于这个或那个。 我关注。 有注意力。 而不是紧张。（笑声） 当你全神贯注的时候，不存在紧张。 现在等一下，等一下，只是来看一看： 起初问题是关于学习的， 以及人能不能通过关系了解自己。 我们逐步深入整个问题， 符合逻辑地、合理地、理智地深入。 现在，就一会儿，请听一下。 我们非常仔细地、详细地深入探讨了这个问题。 那么你能否把整个事情作为一个整体来观察， 而不将其分成细小的片段？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 你能洞察这个结构的整体吗？ 我们已经一点一点、一片一片地检查过了。 那对我个人来说并没有什么意义，因为 但如果你把握了整个事情， 然后从那里出发你就能研究细节了。 但你不能通过细节去研究整体。
1:08:40 Now can you after an hour and 20 minutes, or 10 minutes or a quarter, can you observe this whole phenomenon of registration, learning, relationship as a whole? I mean by whole having a deep insight into the whole thing instantly. You see we are not used to that. We are always from one thing to another from one fragment to another fragment from one broken piece to another and so gradually build up the whole. We think we have built up the whole. But the whole is not this. The whole is the perception of the whole structure and beyond. Then you can be terribly logical. 现在，经过了一个小时二十分钟或十分钟 或者一刻钟，你能不能观察这整个 记录、学习、关系的现象，作为一个整体来观察？ 我说的整体是指对整个事情深入的、 立即的洞察。 你看我们不习惯那样做。 我们总是从一件事情到另一件事情， 从一个部分到另一个部分， 从一个碎片到另一个碎片， 并且逐渐地构造整体。 我们认为我们建成了整体。 但整体不是这样的。 整体是对整个结构的洞察和超越。 然后你就可以极其理性地行事了。
1:10:01 Q: And beyond the structure you said.

K: Oh, of course. The structure is very, very fragile. 		问：并且超越你说的那个结构。

克：噢，当然。 那个结构非常非常脆弱。
1:10:13 Q: Is the attention including the structure and going beyond the structure? 问：那种关注包括那个结构 并且超越了那个结构吗？
1:10:20 K: Yes sir, when we are attentive the structure is non-existent. You understand? You are missing all this. When you are totally attentive there is no structure. Right? That attention is meeting the person at the same level at the same time, with the same intensity the other may not, that is indifferent, that is irrelevant. Your mind is meeting that totally. Then begins the objection on the other person saying 'You are indifferent to me,' you are this, you are that, begins. You are not the cause - you understand? I wonder if you see all this! 克：是的先生，当我们关注的时候，那个结构是不存在的。 你理解吗？你没领会这些。 当你全神贯注的时候，那个结构并不存在。 对吗？ 那种关注就是与对方在同一层面、 同一时间、以同样的强度相遇， 对方可能并不是这样的，那无所谓，那不重要。 你的头脑完整地面对那一切。 然后对方开始反对， 说“你对我漠不关心” 你这样，你那样，就开始了。 但你并不是那个起因——你明白吗？ 我想知道你有没有完全理解这些！
1:11:18 Q: What is being attentive?

K: I have explained madame. You are not attentive to something, about something or for something, you are just attentive. 		问：什么是全神贯注？

克：我已经解释过了，女士。 你不是就某个事情、关于某个事情、 或为了某个事情而关注，你只是关注而已。
1:11:29 Q: Who, what is it that is being attentive? 问：那个关注者是谁，是什么？
1:11:32 K: There is no you to be attentive, I have explained that. There is only attention. 克：没有那个要去关注的你，我已经解释过那点了。 只有关注。
1:11:38 Q: And there isn't another I there? 问：而且不存在另外一个我？
1:11:40 K: No, no, please. See you are going off to something. So are we, at the end of an hour and a quarter - free of the images? If you are not you haven't been listening and nobody can force you to listen. It is up to you. If you want the present kind of relationship with each other and so with humanity, globally that way it is up to you but if you want to find out a way of living totally differently it is also up to you but you have to listen to everything in yourself, in other - you follow? I think that is enough this morning, isn't it? 克：不，不，拜托。你看，你偏离到某些事情上去了。 那么，我们，在一个小时一刻钟之后，是否摆脱了那些意象？ 如果你没有摆脱，你就没有在听， 并且没有人能迫使你去听。 这取决于你。 如果你想让彼此之间的关系、 整个人类的关系普遍是目前的这个样子， 那取决于你， 但如果你想找到 一种完全不同的生活方式， 那也取决于你，但你必须聆听 你自己和他人身上的一切——你理解吗？ 我认为今天上午讲得够多了，不是吗？
1:12:41 Q: Sir, I don't see how the structure disappears I am sorry, I don't understand it. How does the structure disappear when I am attentive to it? What makes the 问：先生，我没有明白那个结构是怎样消失的， 抱歉，我没有理解。 当我关注那个结构的时候它是怎么消失的？ 是什么使
1:12:52 K: Sir, I will tell you, I'll tell you. The structure exists with all that we mean by structure which is the desire for certainty habit, centuries of tradition and so on all that is the structure, the picture, the image which we have made about another. When we are totally attentive there is no structure and therefore you are there is no structure therefore you are beyond everything, the image-making. You just try one thing. Just for fun. Next time your wife, your husband, your girl or boy says something pleasant or unpleasant, watch it just for that second watch it be attentive for that single moment and then you will see whether you are registering or not. You see that is what I mean, find out, try it otherwise you will never find out. Finished. 克：先生，我会告诉你，我会告诉你的。 那个结构与我们称之为结构的一切， 也就是对确定性的渴望，是共同存在的， 还有习惯、数百年的传统等等， 所有那些就是那个结构，我们制造的 关于另一个人的画面、意象。 当我们全神贯注时，就不存在结构， 因而你……没有那个结构， 你超越了一切，超越了意象制造的过程。 你就拿一件事情来试试。 就为了好玩。 下一次你的妻子、你的丈夫、你的女友或男友 说了一些愉快或不愉快的事情，观察它， 就在那个瞬间观察它， 就在那一刻全神贯注， 然后你会发现你有没有记录。 你看这就是我的意思，找出答案，试一试， 否则你永远发现不了。 结束了。
1:14:12 Q: It seems to me there is contradiction how can we watch it and be one with it at the same time? For god's sake explain that.

K: I don't quite follow sir. 		问：在我看来有一种矛盾， 我们怎么能既观察它同时又与它合一呢？ 看在老天的份上解释一下。

克：我不太明白你的意思，先生。
1:14:23 Q: How can we be fear and watch fear at the same time? 问：我们怎么能同时既是恐惧又观察恐惧呢？
1:14:31 K: No, we are going off into something sir. I am saying that you have listened for an hour right sir? - an hour and a quarter. You have realised, understood the mechanistic way of learning and a different way. Right? And also whether one can learn about oneself through relationship. We went into that more or less. Now I am asking: can you be aware of this whole structure first? Right? Be aware of it as you are aware of the colour of the dress of the person sitting next to you. Then be aware that you are separate from that which is absurd, therefore in that awareness you realise there is no division - right? - I am going on. Right? And so in that awareness where there is no division there begins to be a sense of great attention. In that attention which is not yours or another's, it is just attention. In that attention, the whole structure is non-existent and I say from that when your wife or a girl, or a boy says something to you be attentive at that moment and see what happens. 克：不，我们偏离到别的事情上了，先生。 我说 你已经听了一个小时， 对吗，先生？——一个小时零一刻钟。 你已经意识到、理解了 那种机械的学习方式以及一种不同的方式。对吗？ 并且人能不能通过关系了解自己。 我们或多或少地探讨了那些。 现在我要问：你能不能首先觉察到这整个结构？ 对吗？ 觉察到它，就像你觉察到你身边坐的 那个人的衣服的颜色。 然后意识到“你与那个是分开的” 这种认识是荒谬的，进而在那种觉察中 你意识到并不存在分离——对吗？——我接着讲。 对吗？ 所以在那种觉察中不存在分离， 一种巨大的关注感就开始了。 在那种关注中， 它不是你的或另一个人的，它就是关注。 在那种关注中，那整个结构就不存在了， 因而我说，从那里开始，当你的妻子，或女朋友、 男朋友对你说了什么， 在那个时刻全神贯注，看看会发生什么。