Krishnamurti Subtitles home


BR79DT2.1 - 师生之间的关系
与教师们的第一次探讨
英国，布洛克伍德公园
1979年6月17日



0:49 Harsh Tanka: Krishnaji, there's a lot of unrest in education these days, there's a lot of debate and a lot of people are asking questions about it. But most of these questions seem to be about systems of education and methods of teaching and what subjects to teach. And there seems to be a lot of confusion and none of them seems to get to any point. 哈什·坦卡：克里希那吉， 如今的教育之中存在着很多的浮躁不安， 有着很多的争议， 很多人对此都提出了疑问。 但是大多数的疑问都是有关于教育体制的问题， 以及教学方法和所教授的学科这样的问题。 这些问题有些混乱， 似乎都没有说到点子上。
1:32 Krishnamurti: Don't you think we ought to first enquire what is education, rather than what subjects, what books, what system, what kind of teachers and so on. Shouldn't we first ask why are we being educated? The word education, what it means. But I'd like to ask, if I may, why we are being educated? To fit to a system? Into an establishment? 克里希那穆提：难道你不认为我们首先应该探究一下 什么是教育， 而不是问什么学科、什么教科书、什么制度、 什么样的老师等等这些问题。 难道我们不应该首先问问 我们为什么要受教育？ “教育”这个词，是什么意思。 而我想问的是——如果可以的话—— 我们为什么要受教育？ 是要去适应某种制度吗？ 去适应既有的体系吗？
2:19 HT: A lot of education at present is precisely for that. 哈：目前的很多教育正是为了适应既有的体制。
2:24 K: Yes, so is that what education is? Does education mean that? To conform to the social demand? To a particular culture, technological or otherwise, which says you must fit into this, you must conform, or you must find your career, your life, in this particular system. Is that why you are being educated? To have a good career, to have capacity to earn enough money, etc., is that why you are being educated? As you say, apparently it is so. 克：是的，那么这就是教育吗？ 教育就是这样吗？ 是顺应社会的需求吗？ 顺应某种特定的文化，技术上的或者非技术的， 那种文化说你必须适应这些，你必须顺从这些， 或者说你必须找到你的职业，你的生活 ——在这种特定的体系之中。 这就是为什么你要受教育吗？ 为了拥有一份好工作， 为了能赚足够多的钱，等等， 这就是你为何要受教育吗？ 正如你所说，很显然就是这样的。
3:19 HT: Well, it would certainly seem to be a necessary part of education to prepare a student to earn his livelihood. 哈：嗯，不可否认，这似乎是教育必不可少的部分 ——培养学生可以谋生。
3:28 K: Yes, part of it. But even then I question it. Let's go into it a little more carefully, if we may. One might educate a boy or a girl to conform to a particular culture, social demand, technologically, as a career, which is necessary, and so on, but the rest of the whole human complex existence is totally neglected. Would you say that it is so? 克：没错，这是教育的一部分。但即使是这一点我也要质疑。 可以的话，我们来更仔细地探究一下这个问题。 我们可以教育一个男孩或者一个女孩 去适应某个特定的文化和社会的需求 ——在技术上去适应，作为一个职业，这是必需的，等等， 但是人类整个复杂的生活的其他方面 却完全被忽视了。 你认为是这样的吗？
4:06 HT: I think some attempts are made in some ways to try and include that. But it's hard to see exactly where to go or what to do, It's more of a feeling that education should be more, but exactly in what direction is very unclear. It also often involves some form of rejection of the society into which you're going, You see there's something wrong with it therefore you, in some way, don't want to be a part of it. 哈：我认为我们在某些方面作了尝试， 努力把那些方面囊括进去。 但是很难确切地看到要从哪个方面入手或者要怎么做， 更多的是有种感觉——觉得教育应该涵盖更多的方面， 但具体的方向又很不清楚。 这通常也包括了 对你即将踏入的社会的某种形式的反对， 你看到了这个社会有些不对劲， 因此你——在某种程度上——不想成为它的一份子。
4:42 K: What is the meaning of existence? Unless we tackle it on a very large scale I don't see how we're going to solve a particular small problem. What is the meaning of human existence, what is the significance of it? If it is merely to earn a livelihood, merely to get a job, you know, it seems so limited, so extraordinarily narrow. 克：“生存”是什么意思？ 除非我们从一个更大的范围去探究它， 否则我看不出我们怎么能解决一个特定的小问题。 “人类的存在”是什么意思， 人类存在的意义是什么？ 如果仅仅只是谋生， 只是找份工作——你知道的—— 这是非常局限、极其狭隘的。
5:19 Stephen Smith: It is narrow, and yet it seems that those very things are becoming in fact more and more difficult, because of the very structure of society itself and its own momentum, its own structures. 史蒂芬·史密斯：这很狭隘，但是似乎 就是这些事情在实际生活中变得越来越难了 ——由于社会本身的这个架构， 以及社会自身的势头，和社会自身的架构。
5:33 K: Yes, over population. We know all that, need we go into all that? Over population, the destruction of the earth, the whole ecology and everything. Is that why we have made life so narrow and limited? As a human being, you've been to Oxford or Cambridge or whatever university, when you've got a degree, a job, and for the rest of your life until you almost die, you are caught into that, you have responsibility for your children, for your wife, all that. So is that all? Apparently that's all. Or if you are slightly inclined to be religious, you go off and pop into a church occasionally and say, I believe in God, and get on with it. Is that why we are being educated? 克：是的，人口过剩。 这些我们都知道，我们还需要探究这些吗？ 人口过剩、对地球的破坏、 对整个生态以及万事万物的破坏。 这是不是就是我们把生活弄得这么狭隘和局限的原因？ 作为一个人， 你上过牛津大学或者剑桥大学又或者别的什么大学， 在你拿到了学位，接着找了份工作以后， 你的整个余生，直到你最后一口气， 都陷在了这份工作里， 因为你得对你的孩子、妻子——对这一切负责任。 然后是不是就仅此而已了？ 很显然是的。 或者如果你有些宗教倾向， 你就会偶尔停下来，匆匆走进教堂， 说“我信仰上帝”，然后就这样继续下去。 这就是我们受教育的原因吗？
6:55 Brian Nicholson: It is about all that's happening at the moment. 布莱恩·尼科尔森：这大概就是目前所发生的事。
6:59 K: I know that's what is happening. And there, what is happening, we want to improve it, find a different system, different methods, different way of teaching, and so on, to do what? 克：我们知道这都是在发生着的事。 而这些——正在发生的一切——我们想改善它， 我们想发现一种不同的体制，一种不同的方法， 以及一种不同的教学方式等等，而那又是为了什么？
7:20 HT: It seems that education should be preparation for the whole of existence.

K: The whole of life, instead of merely limiting it to earning a livelihood. I should have thought any serious man concerned with education is concerned with the whole of existence of man, man not as an Englishman, a Frenchman, or an American, as a human being. So. 		哈：教育应该为存在的整体而准备。

克：生活的整体， 而不仅仅把它局限为谋生。 我们应该认识到，任何关心教育、活得很认真的人 都会关心人类存在的整体， 而不是把人划分为英国人、法国人，或者美国人， 而是就是人类。 就是这样的。
8:00 SS: You see, I think as religion has declined in the West, and generally, universally, often the solutions that are sought among teachers, particularly a younger generation of teachers, are, generally speaking, political. Not necessarily party political, but they are of a political nature, suggesting that you improve the world by adopting a certain line, or you have a non-authoritarian approach to the actual task of teaching, and out of that possibly something better will happen. In other words you try not to frighten the student, or not to dominate him, and in a sense challenge the values of the society you are in, which are consumer values, sometimes going to the army, almost generally having some kind of career. 史：你瞧，我觉得就像宗教在西方衰退一样， 总体地、普遍地来说， 老师们通常寻找的解决方案， 尤其是较为年青一代的老师寻找的解决方案， 概括地来说，都和政治有关。 他们未必属于政治党派，但是他们有着政治的属性， 他们建议你改善世界 ——通过采纳某种方针， 或者你采用一种非专制的方式 应用在实际的教学工作里， 由此就有可能产生一些较好的成果。 换句话说，就是不去恫吓学生， 或者不去支配他， 而这从某种意义上来说，挑战了你所处社会的各种价值观， 这些价值观都是消费者的价值观——有时是去当兵， 大部分通常是去拥有某种职业。
9:16 K: That's all, we are saying the same thing. 克：就是这样，我们说的是一回事。
9:20 SS: But this seems to be the level at which it functions. 史：但是这似乎就是它起作用的层次。
9:25 K: And are we challenging in this meeting, are we challenging this whole approach to life? 克：那么我们在这次会面中是不是具有挑战性， 我们是不是在挑战这整个生活方式？
9:34 SS: I think we are. 史：我认为是的。
9:36 HT: I think we're asking whether it's possible in a school to educate for the whole of existence rather than just... 哈：我觉得我们是在问，学校有没有可能 是为了整体的生活去教育学生而不仅仅是
9:43 K: Yes, and is that possible? 克：是的，这有可能吗？
9:46 Mathew Mitchell: Part of the problem is we haven't been educated ourselves for the whole of existence. We're caught in the trap ourselves. 马修·米切尔：问题的一方面是 我们自己都没有受过整体的生活方式的教育。 我们自己都深陷于陷阱里。
9:53 K: I understand that, but as an educator, how do you approach this problem? On one hand you say you must have a career, job, etc., and also you say no authority, and also you say we must be concerned with the whole of life. Who is concerned with the whole of life? Not the politician, obviously, nor the priests. 克：我了解，但是身为一名教育者， 你要如何处理这个问题呢？ 一方面你说你必须要有职业，有工作，等等， 另一方面你又说没有权威， 你说我们必须关心整体的生活。 谁会关心整体的生活？ 不是政治家，很显然，也不是牧师。
10:36 SS: Not even them. 史：他们也不关心。
10:38 HT: Not the priests. 哈：也不是牧师们。
10:39 K: Certainly not the priests. Nor the army, nor the engineer, nobody is concerned with the whole of life. Or are they? 克：毫无疑问不是牧师们。 也不是军人，也不是工程师， 没有人关心整体的生活。 还是他们是关心的？
10:55 SS: Poets claim to be, but I think that's possibly partial too. 史：诗人声称他们关心，但我认为他们也可能只是部分地关心。
11:00 K: Are we exaggerating something which is accepted as an actuality if we are totally concerned with the whole cultivation of man? If we are, what shall we do? If we have children and we are concerned as parents who are also educators, not just parents and then shove them off into a school, but if the parents are concerned and the professional educators are concerned with the whole development of man, how shall we set about it? 克：我们有没有在夸大这些被公认为是事实的事 ——如果我们是真正地关心对人类的整体培养的话？ 如果我们真的关心，那我们该怎么做？ 如果我们有孩子的话， 那么我们作为父母，也身为教育者，就会很关心， 而不只是作为父母，把孩子往学校里一扔而已， 而是如果父母很关心， 并且专业的教育者也很关心 人类的整体发展， 那么我们要如何着手？
12:26 HT: I think the truth is that we, the educators, are not always concerned with the whole. 哈：我觉得真相就是 我们——教育者们——不总是能兼顾整体。
12:36 K: Obviously not. 克：显然是这样的。
12:37 HT: Because we have our immediate responsibilities, our own jobs, our careers to look after, and all the problems that beset us. 哈：因为我们有眼下的各种责任要负， 有自己的工作要做，有自己的事业要照看， 被各种问题困扰着。
12:48 K: Are you saying that there is no such group in the world? There may be, and which we don't know? Now, with the whole of life I mean, not only to help the student to have a technological job, knowledge, but also concerned, psychologically, inwardly, how to face problems, to understand the whole question of relationship, love, death, the whole of life. Who is there concerned like that? 克：你是在说 世界上并不存在这样的一群人吗？ 也许存在，但我们并不知道罢了？ 现在，我们说的是整体的生活，不仅仅 只是去帮助学生拥有一份技术性的工作，获得知识， 而且也关心帮助他们从心理上、从内在 如何面对各种问题， 如何去了解关系的整个问题， 了解爱、死亡以及整个生活的全部问题。 谁怀有这样的关心呢？
13:44 BN: It's really very hard to teach if you don't feel like this. 布：如果你没有这种感受的话，这真的是很难教会的。
13:48 K: It's not only hard, but are there such people? And if we are such people, what shall we do? We have not only to understand it ourselves, perhaps beginning verbally, intellectually, and then making it into an actuality in our lives, but how will you help the student to come to this, to the understanding of the whole of life? Because he comes to you conditioned, he is only concerned with a job, with a career, passing exams. If they don't want to pass exams and jobs, what will they do? You follow? What is our responsibility? 克：这不仅仅难，而且有这样的人吗？ 而如果我们是这样的人，我们该怎么办？ 我们不仅仅自己要了解 ——可能一开始只是在口头上、智力上了解， 接着把它付诸于我们实际的生活之中， 而且你要如何 帮助学生去觉知这些， 去了解整体的生活呢？ 因为他是带着局限来到你身边的， 他只关心谋得一份工作， 要有一份事业，要通过考试。 而如果他们不想着要通过考试和谋得工作的话， 他们又要做什么呢？ ——你们跟上了吗？—— 我们的责任是什么？
15:18 SS: I think one responsibility is to ask some different questions from the ones that are normally asked. 史：我认为一个责任是向他们提出一些不同于 大家经常会问到的那些问题。
15:27 K: We're asking each other what's our responsibility? 克:我们现在正在互相问，我们的责任何在？
15:31 SS: For instance one could ask how that society comes about which we see around us, how does it operate. 史：比如，我们会问这个社会 ——我们周围的这个社会是如何产生的、如何运作的。
15:43 K: How has that society come about, because human beings have created it. 克：这个社会是如何产生的， 因为人类建造了它。
15:51 WS: That isn't obvious to a lot of people. Many people would say that society has created a human being. 温：对很多人来说这点并不明显， 很些人会说是社会创造了人。
16:01 K: Society has conditioned human beings. Are you trying to say society suddenly existed? God created it? Some fanciful deity living in wherever he is and suddenly says, 'There must be society' and bang, there is society, or man has created it? 克：是社会使人受到了局限。 你是想说社会是突然存在的吗？ 是上帝创造出了它？ 某个虚幻的、不知所踪的神明， 突然之间说，“得有个社会”， 然后“砰”的一下，就有了社会，还是说是人建造了它？
16:27 WS: No, I am trying to say that the conditioning of society could create a human being and many people say that, if you changed that society, then the human being will change. 温：不，我想说的是，是社会的局限 塑造了人 并且很多人都说，如果你改变了这个社会的话， 那么人也就会有所改变。
16:42 K: That has been tried by the communists, by the totalitarian people of different colour, change society, change environment, either through brutal means or different ways. But they haven't succeeded. 克：这些共产主义者都已经试过了， 有着不同政治色彩的极权主义者也试过了， 他们改变社会，改变环境， 或者通过很残酷的方式或者通过其他不同的方式。 但是他们都没有成功。
17:00 MM: Perhaps the response would be, people who went before just didn't do it well enough, and I'll do it better this time. 马：也许问题在于 之前做的那些人只是做得不够好， 而这次我们会把它做好。
17:08 K: So, you say we'll have such a government who will be efficient to change the outer circumstances, society and all that, and hoping thereby to create a different human being, is that it? I believe every kind of system to change a human being from outside has been tried. 克：因此，你是说我们要有这样一个 能卓有成效地改变我们外部的环境、 社会和这一切的政府， 因此就有希望造就截然不同的人了，是这个意思吗？ 我相信人已经试过了各种方法 从外部着手去转变人。
17:37 BN: One has to start from the other end, one has to care for the student. 布：我们得从另一头（内在）着手，我们要去关怀学生。
17:42 K: I want to find out whether you want to start from the outside, outside in the sense change the environment, change the culture, change the government, change the whole way of looking at life from the outside through pressure, through cruel means or pleasant means, and then gradually bring about a different human being. Is that possible? And I believe they have tried every kind of system from the outside, the Greeks, the ancient Hindus, the Romans – historically it is so. And in recent years the communists in their way, through totalitarianism, have tried to force man to be different. They haven't succeeded. They have suppressed man. They have suppressed human beings to conform to a pattern. But there are always the dissidents, – you know the whole history of all that. So, that's what I want to find out. Are we trying to change the human character, the condition of man, from the outside? Which is called education in a different way, right? Or if it's not from the outside, is it from inside? Inside in the sense, inside the skin, psychologically, inwardly? 克：我想弄清楚你是不是想从外部着手—— “外部”的意思是改变环境， 改变文化，改变政府， 改变整个看待生活的方式 ——借助外部的压力、 借助残暴的手段或者借助愉悦的方式， 接着逐步地带来崭新的人类。 这可能吗？ 我相信他们已经试过了各种方法 ——从外部， 希腊人，古印度人， 罗马人都已经试过了——纵观历史就是如此。 而近年来共产主义者用他们自己的方式 ——经由极权主义—— 想促使人变得不同。 但他们没有成功。 他们压迫人。 他们压迫人去顺从某种模式。 但总是有持不同政见的人， ——你知道这一切的整个来龙去脉。 因此，这就是我想弄清楚的， 我们是不是在试图去改变人类的品质， 改变人类的现状——却还是从外部着手？ 这就是所谓别样的教育了，对吗？ 或者如果不从外部着手，而是从内在着手呢？ “内在”的意思是 皮囊里面——心理上，内心里？
19:32 HT: But there has also been a movement of late, people have tried all kinds of things, turned to gurus, turned to psychiatrists. 哈：但是近来一直存在着一种动向 ——人们尝试了各种方法，去求助古鲁， 去求助心理病学家。
19:45 K: Most of the gurus, are they concerned with the transformation of man? 克：大多数的古鲁， 他们关心人类的转变吗？
19:53 MM: Well, people seem to believe they are. 马：哦，人们似乎相信他们是很关心的。
19:57 K: Are you sure? 克：你确定？
19:59 HT: What do you mean, by the transformation of man? What do you mean when you say, transformation of man? 哈：你说的“人类的转变”是什么意思？ 你说“人类的转变”是什么意思？
20:07 K: To free him from his conditioning, from his problems, from his tortures, from his anxieties and despairs and depressions and fears, you know, all the suffering. Have gurus tried this? Or have they said, follow this, you will achieve something or other? 克：使人从局限之中解脱出来， 从他的各种问题、各种折磨之中解脱出来， 从他的各种忧愁、各种绝望以及沮丧和恐惧之中解脱出来， 你知道，从所有的苦难之中解脱出来。 古鲁们这么做了吗？ 或者他们是不是说过， 依照这个，你就会证得些什么或者别的什么？
20:33 HT: They claim that they can free you from this kind of thing. They say, come to me, follow me, do what I say and I can remove all your suffering. 哈：他们声称他们能使你 从这些事情之中解脱出来。 他们说，过来，听我的， 按我说的去做，我会去除你所有的痛苦。
20:44 K: That means accept authority. You reject authority educationally, and here you accept authority. I don't know if I am explaining myself. 克：这意味着接受权威。 在教育上你反对权威，而在这里你却接受权威。 我不知道自己是否解释清楚了。
20:58 SS: Yes, that happens. But we ought to try and look at what comes about when you begin from the other way on, which is starting with the person you have in front of you. 史：是的，事实就是这样的。 但是我们应该试着去看看到底发生了什么 ——在你用另一种方式着手的时候， 也就是从你面前的这个人着手。
21:23 K: Can we cultivate the human mind harmoniously? 克：我们能不能把人的心灵培养得很和谐？
21:29 WS: I'm not quite sure when you say cultivate it harmoniously. 温：我不是很确定 你说把人心培养得很和谐是什么意思。
21:34 K: What I mean by that is not only jobs and careers and all that, but also his mind, the way he thinks, his attitudes, all that. Can the two streams go together, the outer as well as the inner. Or must they everlastingly be kept apart? Or is there such a thing as the outer and the inner? I don't know if you are interested in this. 克：我的意思是——不仅仅包括工作、事业之类， 也包括他的心智，他思考的方式， 他的态度，等等这一切。 能不能把这两条溪流汇聚起来 ——外部和内在两者。 还是它们只能是永远分离的呢？ 或者到底存在外部和内在这回事吗？ 我不知道你们是不是对此有兴趣。
22:27 SS: Perhaps it's going a bit fast, Krishnaji. If we can see that the outer is the passing exams, and preparing for a career. 史：也许探究得有点快了，克里希那吉。 要是我们能看到外部就是通过考试， 为一份职业做准备的话。
22:36 K: Career and living a life of constant struggle. 克：职业生涯以及过一种不停挣扎的生活。
22:42 SS: What relation does that have to an education based on care, affection, psychological understanding, etc., the things we mentioned? 史：它们有什么关系 ——这种生活和我们提到过的基于关怀、慈爱、 内心的理解等等这样的教育有什么关系？
22:58 K: Can these two go together? That's what I am asking. Or, this division is artificial. The outer and the inner. Or there is no such thing as division, but it's a constant moving, outer and inner? I don't know if I am making myself clear. 克：这两者能不能并重？ 这就是我在问的。 或者说，这种划分是人为的 ——外部和内在的划分。 还是说根本不存在这种划分， 只存在一种持续不断的运动——外部和内在一起的运动？ 我不知道我是不是表达清楚了。
23:34 MM: I think a little more, I'm not quite sure what you're talking about. 马：我想还得多解释一下， 我不十分确定你所说的意思。
23:40 K: We have divided life as the outer and the inner. The inner is more complex, more difficult to understand, and so we have given much more emphasis to the outer. The outer is physical security, physical wellbeing, I am not saying we shouldn't be. Physical comforts, the whole commercialism, production, all that's going on in the present world, with their terror, with their tortures, with their wars, everything, that's the outer. And the inner is, beliefs, rituals, gods, the saviours, the gurus, the hope there will be some day some kind of peace in one's life. So we have these two. 克：我们把生活划分为外部和内在。 因为内在更为复杂，更难了解， 所以我们就更多地强调外部。 外部就是指物质上的安全、身体上的健康 ——我并不是说我们不该这样—— 身体上的各种舒适，整个的商业主义，产品 ——这些在当今世界发生着的一切， 并且伴随着它们带来的恐惧、它们带来的痛苦、 它们带来的战争，这一切 ——这就是外部。 而内在就是——各种信仰、各种仪式、各种神明、救世主、古鲁， 以及总有一天我们的生活会变得祥和安宁的希望。 因此我们这两者都有。
24:56 HT: Is that part of the inner life of a student? 哈：这是不是学生内心的一部分？
25:02 K: No, when the student comes to you he is conditioned by his parents, by the society, the culture he has lived in, and he comes to you and he is career minded, examinations, job. That's all. It is only very rare that a student comes who says, 'Sir, there is something more than this, please tell me what there is.' Like the other day the boy asked, 'All right, take it for granted we must have a career, but that's not the end of everything.' So are these two divisions artificial, man made? Because the one is very complex. Apparently very complex, put it that way. The other is fairly systematised. One wants security, physical security, and so that has been the urge right through history, that there must be physical security first. Feed me, and we'll think about God afterwards. And there are the others who say, think of God, be with him and everything will come right. Believe in the saviour and your life will be made easy. So we have kept these two in almost water tight compartments. Would you agree to that, would you say it is so? 克：不是， 当学生来到你身边时， 他受制于他的父母， 受制于社会，以及他所处社会的文化， 接着他来到了你身边， 他的内心装着职业，考试、工作——就是这样的。 很少有学生会说： “先生，并非仅此而已，还有别的什么吧， 请告诉我是什么。” 就像几天前有个男孩问的， “是的，我们都想当然地认为我们必须得有一份职业， 但是一切并非到此为止。” 因此，外部和内在的划分是人为的，是人造的吗？ 因为一方（内在）非常复杂。 很显然非常复杂——就这么来形容它吧。 而另一方（外部）已经相当系统化了。 我们都想要安全——物质上的安全， 以至于贯穿整个历史这都是我们很强烈的渴望， ——也就是，首先我们必须要有物质上的安全。 先给我吃的，然后我们才会去想上帝。 也有人说，“你要相信上帝， 和他在一起，那么一切就会平安无事。 要信仰救世主，接着你的生活就会轻松起来。” 因此我们都被关在了这两种类似水密舱的东西之中。 ——你们对此同意吗，你们会说是这样的吗？——
27:21 HT: One of them we talk about much more, and the other is... 哈：其中的一个我们讨论得很多，但另外一个
27:26 K: ...put aside, rather shy making. And rather, one doesn't want to expose oneself too much, so you say, please don't go into that, let's concentrate on this. 克：……被搁置了，它相当让人胆怯。 然而， 我们都不想揭露自己太多， 于是你就说，“请不要去探究那个， 就让我们专心在这个上吧。”
27:43 SS: Which is what we've done, and doing more and more really. 史：这就是我们所做的，实际上越来越这个样子了。
27:47 K: Yes. So I'm just asking, is this division emphasised by education, as it is now, sustained by acquiring superficial knowledge, and keeping the other in the cupboard, occasionally looking at it when the crisis, emotional crisis arises and you try to solve it but that is hidden, secret. Now I am asking, are these two streams, one very, very strong, all men are concerned with the one stream and so have given an enormous volume of water to it, energy, and the other practically neglected. Even the most religious person is concerned not with the ending of fear, sorrow, etc., but believing in God, practising certain rituals and hoping thereby to achieve a state of mind, or giving him some kind of peace. This is what is happening. Now I am asking, can these two streams be brought together? Surely that's the purpose of education, not to keep them apart. 克：是的，因此我就在问， 是不是教育所强调的这种划分 ——就像现在这样—— 是靠获得肤浅的知识来支撑的 而把另外一个锁在橱柜里了， 偶尔只在危机——情感危机升起时，才看看它， 然后你就想要解决掉它，但是它是隐藏的、隐密的。 现在我在问，这两条溪流， 其中一条非常非常强大， 所有人都在意这条溪流， 因此给它灌溉了很多水，以及能量。 而另一条被完全忽略， 即使最有宗教倾向的人也不是很关心 终结恐惧、悲伤，等等， 但是他们却信仰上帝，修炼某种宗教仪式， 并希望因此而达到某种心灵的状态， 或者能让他内心祥和。 这就是我们的现状。 现在我问的是， 这两条溪流能不能汇合起来？ 无疑，这就是教育的目的， 而不是去分离它们。
29:38 HT: But why do you see it as necessary to bring these two streams together? 哈：但是为什么你会觉得 把这两条溪流汇合起来是必需的呢？
29:42 K: Because that's also my life, one's life. The suffering, the agony, the doubt, the guilt, the hurts, all that is part of my life, one's life. Why do you give importance only to this? 克：因为，那（内在）也是我的生活，我们的生活。 不幸、痛苦、怀疑、 内疚、伤害 ——这一切也都是我生活的一部分，我们生活的一部分。 而你为什么只对这个（外部）赋予了重要性？
30:02 HT: But the two are not really separate. 哈：而事实上这两者是分不开的。
30:05 K: The two are not separate but we have made them separate. 克：这两者是分不开的，但是我们却把它们分开了。
30:11 SS: Doesn't that imply that we need to concentrate on the other one, quite considerably? 史：难道这不意味着需要我们去专注 于另一个上——要相当地专注在上面吗？
30:16 K: No, one should be educated in both fields. 克：不是，我们应该在这两个领域之内都受到教育。
30:24 SS: But the other one is already so strong, you see. It tends to dominate the other. 史：但是你看到了，其中一个领域已经很强大了。 它有支配另一个的趋势。
30:28 K: So, what will you do? If the educators were concerned, and felt the tremendous responsibility that the two must be brought together. I doubt if they want to, first, if they do, then what shall we do together? As a group of teachers, as a group of educators, what shall we do? That the cultivation of the human mind is not only in the technological world but also in the so-called psychological and, if one may use the word, spiritual world also. And probably the organised religious people say, that's what we are trying to do. 克：因此，你会怎么做？ 如果教育者很关心这个， 并且觉得自己对此身负巨大的责任 ——必须去把这两者汇合起来的话。 首先，我不知道我们是不是想这么做， 如果我们想的话，那么我们该一起来做什么？ 身为一群老师， 身为一群教育者，我们该怎么做？ 这种对人类心灵的培育 不仅仅是在技术领域里， 也包括所谓的心理领域， 还有宗教领域——如果我可以用这个词的话。 而有组织的信仰宗教的人可能会说， 那就是我们在做的。
31:38 HT: That's what they say but... 哈：那是他们说的，但是
31:39 K: No, they would say that. Therefore one has to go into the whole question of what is religion. Are beliefs religion, rituals religion, the propaganda of two thousand years, religion? 克：不，他们是会那么说的。 因此我们必须探究这整个宗教是什么的问题。 信仰是不是就是宗教，宗教仪式是不是就是宗教， 两千年来的传道是不是就是宗教？
32:01 SS: That is what is understood as religion normally. I think you would have to contest that concept of religion, or that statement about religion. 史：这些就是我们一般所理解的宗教。 我觉得你必定会反对这种宗教的概念， 或者这种有关宗教的说法。
32:16 K: You have to counter it, you have to find out whether it is accurate or false, or invented by the priests. 克：你必须反对， 你必须弄清楚这是正确的还是错误的， 还是只是牧师们发明出来的。
32:23 SS: So you are introducing another element which is really some kind of psychological inquiry... 史：因此，你是在引入另一种要素， 这种要素实际上就是某种心灵上的质疑
32:32 K: Revolution. 克：革命。
32:33 SS: ...or discussion among people as to what is the nature of things, which is a different element. 史：……或者一群人一起讨论什么是事物的本质 ——这是种不一样的要素。
32:39 K: Yes, what is the nature of the psyche? What is the nature of a total human being, as it is now, and whether that total human being can be transformed, can be changed? After all you have a student who comes to you, ignorant of mathematics, history, or whatever it is, and you educate him so that he has a different mind at the end of ten years. He is either a mathematician, engineer, or physicist and so on. You take enormous trouble to do that, through schools, colleges, universities, that's what we are doing. 克：没错，心灵的本质又是什么？ 一个人整体上的本质是怎样的——就像眼下的情形， 而这一整个人能不能转化，能不能转变？ 要知道有个学生，他来到你的身边 ——他不懂数学、历史，或者别的什么—— 你教育他，让他 在十年之后有一个不一样的心智。 他要么成了数学家、工程师，要么就成了物理学家等等， 你费了很大的心力去实现这些， ——通过上学、上专科学校和大学。 这就是我们在做的。
33:35 HT: Then we must take enormous trouble too to do the other. 哈：接着我们也得费很大的心力去培育另外的一个（内在）。
33:39 K: The other, now who will do it? You see, who will undertake, feel the responsibility, say look, we must do this too. 克：另一个，那么我们要怎么做？ 你瞧，是谁去承担，是谁感到负有责任， 说：“瞧，内在我们也得这么做。”
33:54 HT: Well, as a teacher I see the responsibility, the necessity for doing that, but I know my subject and I can teach my subject but I don't know the other myself very well. 哈：哦，作为老师，我看到自己的责任所在， 看到这么做的必要性， 但是我只懂我教的学科，我能教授我的科目， 但连我自己也太不了解另外的那个（内在）。
34:09 K: So what shall we do? If you see the importance of both, how will you inquire into the human existence as it is, and whether it can be transformed, whether it can be changed? I should have thought that is education, not merely cram the student with a lot of facts about this or that, but also how to live without problems, without suffering, without fear, without the agonies they go through. 克：因此我们要怎么办？ 如果你看到了两者兼顾的重要性的话， 那么你要怎么去探究人类生活的现状， 这样的生活现状能不能转化，能不能改变呢？ 我早该想过这才是教育， 不只是用一些有关这个那个的事实去填塞学生的头脑， 而是要如何生活 ——没有任何问题、不带一丝痛苦、 没有丝毫恐惧、不夹杂所经历的任何创伤地去生活。
35:02 BN: So you need to start really paying attention to your actual life, one day after another, as well as going to classes. 布：因此你得开始真正地去关注 你实际的生活，一天天的生活 ——除了去上课以外。
35:11 K: So, as an educator, can we do that? If the educator is not living that, is not himself involved in understanding his own life and he gets up and talks about the other, and the students obviously spot you as being rather shady. I question it: why has man denied the other side, or neglected it, or vaguely be concerned about it, why? 克：因此，身为教育者，我们能不能这么做呢？ 如果教育者不这样生活， 不让自己致力于了解他自身的生活 却站起来谈论别的， 那么学生们很容易就会发觉你内心相当阴暗。 我问个问题：人为什么要否定另一个方面（内在）， 或者忽略它，又或者对它只是稍加关注， 为什么？
36:01 MM: One problem seems to be that we don't really know how to look at something for ourselves. I've learned mathematics, somebody has always told me how to do this or that, and when I have to look at something and nobody is telling me how to look, I'm a little lost. 马：问题在于 就连我们自己也并不真的知道如何去看待世事。 我学习数学， 总会有人来教我怎么做这个、怎么做那个， 而当我去看时 却没有人来教我怎么看，我就会有些不知所措。
36:18 K: Is that the problem? I'm not quite sure that's the problem. 克：这是问题所在吗？ 我不太确定这就是问题所在。
36:24 SS: It's also where to look. 史：还有往哪里看。
36:32 K: No, it's not that. I'm asking, why has he neglected this, the other side of man, the hidden side of man? 克：不是的，不是那样的。 我是在问，人为什么要忽略它， ——人类的另一面，人类隐藏的一面呢？
36:53 WS: Earning a living has become tremendously important, it seems the most important thing. 温：因为谋生变得无比重要， 它似乎成了最重要的事。
36:58 K: That is security. We'll call that security, physical security. And he is asking, give me psychological security and I will go after that. Rather than, educate me to find total security, psychologically and then I'll accept it. Is that it? He's seeking physical security, all human beings are, in one form or another. And if you assure man that there is also security inwardly then he might pay attention to it. So I'm asking, is the whole pursuit of man to be completely secure in both areas? 克：因为那就是安全。 我们称之为“安全”，物质上的安全。 而人想要的是： 别人来给予我心理上的安全，然后我追寻它。 而不是：教育我自己去发现内心彻底的安全， 然后我才接受它。 是这样吗？ 人寻求的是物质上的安全，全人类都是 ——以这种或那种形式。 而如果你使他确信也存在内心安全的话， 那么他也许就会去关注它。 因此我是在问，人类所有的追求 是不是就是要在这两个领域中都得到彻底的安全呢？
38:20 WS: Yes, I don't like to do something unless I know what's going to happen. 温：是的，我不想去做某件事 ——除非我知道会发生什么。
38:25 K: Yes, secure, certain. Give assurity, a sense of feeling safe, protected, and I will pursue that. They have done that, haven't they? Believe in Jesus, believe in certain forms of religion and you will be safe. If you don't believe, you will go to hell. Now, of course, nobody believes that kind of nonsense. So that's what I am asking, is man seeking security in both areas? 克：是的，想要安全、确定。 作出保证，要感到安全、被保护着， 然后我才会去做。 人们就是这样做的，不是吗？ 信仰耶稣，信仰某种宗教， 这样你就安全了。 而如果你不信仰这些，那么你就会下地狱。 当然，现在没有人相信这些无稽之事。 因此，这就是我的问题， 人是不是在这两个领域之中都要寻求安全？
39:07 HT: Not just physical security but also security in relationships. 哈：不只是物质上的安全，也包括关系之中的安全。
39:12 K: Yes, security in relationship so that I'll never be disturbed, not to be disturbed, not to have fears, completely safe. In this field he is demanding it – in the physical field – In the other he is also demanding it, and so he has created the churches, the gods, the whole religious structure, with their fanciful, romantic mysticism, all that. Is that what man is seeking? Therefore if you, as an educator, say, 'I'll give you security there, completely, in your relationship you will be safe, you will have no psychological problems, you will have no fear, no anxiety, no guilt, no sense of being hurt, you will understand death' and so on, so on, then he will follow that. 克：是的，关系之中的安全可以让我永远不受干扰， 不受打扰，没有各种担忧， 感到彻底地安全。 在这个领域之内——物质领域，人的需求是这样的， 在另一个领域，人的需求也是一样的， 因此人类就建造出了各式各样的教堂， 各种神明，以及这整个的宗教架构 ——带着他们幻想的、浪漫的神秘主义，那一切。 这是不是就是人类所追寻的呢？ 因此如果你——身为教育者——说： “在这里我会让你安全——彻底的安全， 在你的关系之中你会很安全， 你不会有各种心理上的问题， 你的内心将没有恐惧、焦虑，也没有负罪感 和受伤的感觉， 你也会对死亡有所了解”等等等等的话， 那么，他就会对这些产生兴趣。
40:34 HT: Can we really do that for them? 哈：我们真的能为他们做到这些吗？
40:37 K: That's what I'm asking. 克：这就是我在问的。
40:50 HT: Is it possible to have complete security? 哈：拥有彻底的安全有可能吗？
40:52 K: I think so. 克：我认为是可能的。
41:01 WS: Then aren't you offering me the same thing? 温：那么难道你就不是在向我提供同样的东西吗？
41:06 K: I am not, no. First of all, I question the whole urge, structure of security. Is there security in this field – in the field of technology, in the field of career, in the field of having jobs and so on – is there security there? 克：我不是，不是的。 首先，我质疑 这整个对安全的强烈需求，以及安全感的架构。 在这个领域之内是否存在安全 ——技术的领域，职业生涯的领域， 找到工作的领域，等等—— 在这个领域之内存在安全吗？
41:35 HT: There's a kind of security but it brings with it its own dangers. 哈：存在某种安全，但这种安全又会引起它自身的危机感。
41:40 K: Its own problems, its own mess, which is not security. Security means to be perfectly safe. Perfectly protected, not disturbed, say, I have a job and nothing is going to happen. No wars, because the moment there is war I am lost. 克：带来它自身的问题，引起它自身的混乱， 这种安全根本不安全。 “安全”意味着完全可靠。 彻底地受到保护，完全不受干扰， 可以说，我有工作，万无一失， 也不会有战争——因为一旦有战争我就会茫然无措。
42:11 WS: Also nobody is going to take my job from me. 温：也不会有人和我抢工作。
42:13 K: But we want it there, and we're not finding it there. Governments change, inflation, every form of dishonesty. So I am asking, when we say we want security, is there such a thing at all? As long as we call ourselves Englishmen, Frenchmen, keep it isolated, keep ourselves isolated as divisions, and nations and so on, races, we are not secure. What do you say to that? Because I want to be secure in England as an Englishman, if I am an Englishman, or an Indian, or a Japanese, whatever it is, I want to be secure in my job, in my work, physically. 克：我们想在那个领域里得到安全，但我们却找不到， 政府善变，通货膨胀， 以及各种欺诈行为。 因此我问，当我们说我们需要安全的时候， 究竟有没有安全这样东西？ 而只要我们还声称自己是英国人、法国人， 保持这样的孤立， 将我们自己孤立成为各种阶层、 各种国家等等，以及不同种族的话， 那么我们就不会安全。 对此你会说什么？ 因为我认为作为英国人待在英国就可以得到安全， 如果我是英国人或者印度人 又或者是日本人，或者无论是哪里人， 那么我需要在自己的职业中、在我的工作中 获得物质上的安全。
43:33 SS: And the solutions that are sought also tend to be bigger but of a similar kind. For instance, like a European parliament, or a European nation. 史：而我们所寻找的解决办法也都倾向于 更大规模的，但都属于同一类。 比如，像欧洲的国会， 或者欧洲的国家。
43:45 K: In the meantime, when that comes into being, in the meantime I go through agony, fears, uncertainty. There are millions of unemployed. 克：同时，在实现这些之时， 我同样经受着痛苦、恐惧、不确定性。 有数百万的失业人员。
44:08 SS: I'd like to get back to the question of the teacher in a school, meeting a student who is the product of the society but who is not aware that he is 史：我想回到教师的那个问题： 在学校里遇到一个学生，他是社会的产物， 但是他自己没有意识到他是社会的产物。
44:22 K: I have to help him not to be a product of the society. 克：我必须帮助他不去沦为社会的产物。
44:25 SS: Or show that he is. 史：或者向他说明他是社会的产物。
44:26 K: He is, obviously. 克：显而易见，他就是社会的产物。
44:28 SS: Yes, but he probably doesn't see that. He probably doesn't realise that. 史：是的，但他可能没有看到这点。 他也许并没有意识到这点。
44:32 K: He doesn't. As an educator it's my responsibility. That he is the result of his father, grandfather, whole generations past, with their particular form of society handed down through tradition. 克：他没有。而身为教育者，这是我的责任。 他是他的父辈、祖辈的产物， 是过去几代人的产物 ——带着他们当时特定的社会形式 经由传统世代相传了下来。
44:56 SS: And also the present society with its own violence, etc. 史：再加上当今的社会也存在着它自身的暴力，等等。
45:01 K: Yes, so he comes conditioned and the teacher comes conditioned. 克：是的，因此他带着这些局限而来， 而老师也带着这些局限而来。
45:14 SS: So they're both conditioned. 史：因此他们都是深受局限的。
45:16 K: Both conditioned. At present, not realising both are conditioned, it's the blind leading the blind. 克：都深受局限。 目前，我们双方都没有意识到我们深受局限， 也就是瞎子在带着瞎子走路。
45:26 SS: Well, if one realises he is conditioned he is only partly blind. 史：那么，如果我们意识到自己深受局限的话， 那么我们就只是瞎了一部分。
45:34 K: Partly, but being partly blind isn't... 克：一部分，但是瞎了一部分还不是
45:37 SS: It's not much good but it's better than being totally blind. 史：这虽然不是很好，但是总好过完全瞎了。
45:42 K: Partly. It's like saying partly sane. 克：一部分。这就像是说一部分是理性的一样。
45:46 SS: We are partly sane, aren't we? 史：我们就是一部分是理性的，不是吗？
45:48 K: But partly, and therefore… Being partly sane, the greater insanity takes place. Apart from all this, what shall we do? As educators, what's our responsibility? 克：但是只有一部分的话，那么我们就是 一小部分是理性的，而更多的是不理性在运作着。 除了这样，我们还能怎么做？ 身为教育者，我们的责任是什么？
46:09 HT: We're saying that, it seems that the main concern of humanity is with security. When the student comes, his parents, they're thinking of what he will do in the future, security. 哈：我们正在说这个， 人似乎最关心的就是安全。 当学生来到这里，他的父母， 他们想到的就是他将来做什么才是稳妥的。
46:28 K: Yes, for them, the parent is thinking security for them. And the security is career. 克：是的，父母为他们考虑到的就是安全稳妥。 而安全稳妥的就是职业。
46:34 HT: Yes, but then career turns out not to be security, because there is uncertainty, there are all kinds of things. 哈：是的，但是接着又会证明职业是靠不住的， 因为总存在不确定性，总有各种各样的事情发生。
46:42 K: For one job there are a thousand people. So I am questioning, when man is seeking security whether there is such a thing at all. Maybe temporarily you are secure if you have a bank account, if you have a great piece of the earth, perhaps you are secure. But even then, there is always encroachment, there are taxes... 克：因为一份工作就要有一千个人来竞争。 因此我问的是， 当人们追寻安全时， 究竟有没有安全这样的东西存在。 也许你暂时感到很安全 ——如果你银行里有账户，如果你拥有 一片土地，也许你会感到很安全。 但即便如此，总还会有侵占，还会有各种税收
47:19 BN: You raised the question as to whether one might be completely secure. 布：你提出了这个问题 ——关于我们有没有可能是完全安全的。
47:25 K: Yes. 克：是的。
47:27 BN: Could we look at that? 布：我们能不能对此探究一下？
47:30 K: Look at it, sir. What do you say? 克：先生，那就来探究一下。你怎么说？
47:35 HT: What makes us insecure? 哈：是什么让我们觉得不安全？
47:39 K: Division. Division of people into races, classes, nationalities, I am a Jew, you are an Arab. This division. 克：划分。 把人划分成不同种族的人，不同阶级、国家的人， 我是犹太人，你是阿拉伯人。 是因为这种划分。
47:58 HT: We seem to encourage this division. We encourage this division. In schools there is competition. 哈：我们似乎都鼓励这样的划分。 我们都鼓励这种划分，在学校里存在着竞争。
48:05 K: Naturally, because each person is concerned with his own security and that security is through small groups, large groups, identifying with one country against another, which eventually breeds wars. We never say, look, we are one human race, for God's sake let's all work together and create a different world. 克：很自然地， 因为每个人都只关心自己的安全， 而这种安全感都是借由小的群体，或者大的群体而来 ——认同某个国家，反对另一个国家， 而这最终引起了战争。 我们从不说，“瞧，我们是同一个人类种群，看在老天的份上， 让我们一起共事，创造出一个不一样的世界吧。”
48:45 BN: So trying to find one's own security makes everyone insecure. 布：因此，我们都想找到属于自己的安全，而这使得每个人都不安全。
48:49 K: Obviously. Look at what is happening. The politician wants to be secure in his position. So, we are just asking, as educators, what shall we do, or what is our responsibility when we see how grotesque it has all become. It's like developing a right arm and neglecting the left arm, which is withering, which is ultimately going to destroy the whole human being. So, if you see both arms must be developed, strengthened, and work together, what shall we do? Would you ask that question, what shall we do, if you saw the importance that the inward as well as the outer must move together? 克：显然如此。看看所发生的一切。 政客想在他的职位中得到安全感。 因此，我们就在问，身为教育者，我们要怎么做， 或者我们的责任是什么——当我们看到 世界已经变得多么荒唐时。 这就像是只锻炼你的右臂，而忽视你的左臂一样， 那么左手臂就会萎缩， 那么最终就会毁掉整个人类。 因此，如果你看到两条手臂都要得到锻炼、 变得强壮、协调运作， 那么，我们要怎么做？ 你会不会问，我们要怎么做， 如果你看到它的重要性 ——内在和外部必须一起运作的重要性的话？
50:09 SS: I would certainly bring some deliberate attention to bear on it, spend some time with it, talk about it, even understanding it imperfectly myself because of the crucial nature of it. 史：无疑，我就会在这上面投以仔细审慎的关注， 花些时间与它共处，探讨它 ——即使我自己也不完全了解它—— 那是因为它极其重要的本质使然。
50:29 K: Can you do that? Will you in a class give half of your time? Half an hour for mathematics, half an hour talking over the other? Discussing, having a dialogue, pointing out the importance of both? 克：你会这么做吗？ 你会在自己的课上花一半的时间这么做吗？ 半小时教数学， 半小时讨论别的？ 你会通过讨论、和学生对谈， 指出这两者的重要性吗？
51:03 HT: Or rather than separating them out like that, as you talk about the mathematics you're also looking at your responses to it, how the other is moving at the same time. 哈：或者并不是像这样把课程划分开， 而是在你教数学的同时 你也看着自己对此的各种反应， 以及内心是如何活动的。
51:21 K: No, I'm saying something more. Will you in your class, or whatever you are doing as an educator give time to this? 克：不是的，我要说的不止如此。 你会在自己的课上， 或者身为教育者的你无论在做什么 都会在这上面投入时间吗？
51:32 WS: Isn't it rather artificial though, to divide the class half into the subject and half into something else? 温：这难道不是相当不自然吗——把课程划分成 一半讲课，一半做别的？
51:40 K: It may be artificial. How will you do it? Will you do it at lunch time? 克：这也许有些人为的痕迹。那你会怎么做？ 你会在午餐时间这么做吗？
51:44 WS: As Harsh suggested, by the very working together at a subject you're also working together with the relationship of the student and you. It is not just working on a subject. 温：就像哈什提过的， 就在一起学一门课的时候， 你同时也在一起学习 学生和你的关系。 而不仅仅是学习一门课程而已。
51:59 K: That means you have established a relationship with the student. 克：这意味着你已经 和学生建立了一种关系。
52:04 WS: Yes. 温：是的。
52:05 K: Have you a relationship with the student? Relationship means being concerned about his dress, the way he walks, the way he talks, the language he uses, cultivating his taste, manners, politeness, the whole of it. To help him to be free from fear and so on, so on. Are we doing this? Which means the educator must also be enquiring in himself. Or is this all so vague and uncertain and doubtful when the educator himself is conditioned to one way of life? What would you do if you had children of your own? After all the students are your children. What will you do, actually? 克：你和学生之间有关系吗？ “关系”意味着关心 他的穿着，关注他走路的方式，关注他讲话的方式， 以及他所使用的语言，还有培养他的品位、 礼貌、礼仪，等等这一切， 去帮助他从恐惧之中解脱出来等等。 我们在这么做吗？ 这意味着教育者也必须探究他自己内心。 还是说，这一切是如此不明确、不确定和不肯定 ——当教育者自身也局限在某种生活方式之中？ 如果你自己有孩子的话，你会怎么做？ 说到底学生们就是你的孩子。 实际上你会怎么做？