克里希那穆提 - 我们将生活割裂成了外在和内在

Krishnamurti Subtitles

BR79DT2.2 - 我们将生活割裂成了外在和内在
与教师们的第二次探讨
英国，布洛克伍德公园
1979年6月20日

0:38	Stephen Smith: Krishnaji, I was wondering if we could talk about the educator, – that is, the teacher – both in the classroom and outside, and how he is able to educate, having some understanding of what the nature of education is, that is, a total responsibility for the life of the student and for the life of the community. And for perhaps some understanding of the place of his specific instruction, his specific knowledge in the whole scheme of things, but having only a partial understanding of the depth of things, the reality of things. How is he to proceed to bring about a different kind of understanding in a student, that is an understanding that is not just of the subject but deeper and beyond the subject, a more global understanding?	史蒂芬·史密斯：克里希那吉，我想我们是不是可以讨论一下教育者的问题，也就是说，老师 ——在课上，也在课外—— 他要如何教育学生，他对教育的本质是什么有一定的了解 ——也即，老师对学生的生活负有全责，对团体的生活负有全责。同时他可能也相当了解他自己特定的教学领域的地位，他特定的知识在整个知识框架中的位置，但是他却不太了解事物的深度，以及事物的真相。那么他要如何给学生带来一种截然不同的了解，这种了解不只是对学科的了解，还有超越学科之上的更为深度的了解 ——一种更为全局性的了解呢？
1:49	Krishnamurti: Would you consider the relationship between the student and the educator, what is the relationship?	克里希那穆提：你有没有思考过学生和教育者之间的关系，以及什么是关系？
2:06	SS: Well, so far as the subject is concerned, the teacher knows more about the subject than the student.	史：哦，就学科而言，老师要比学生懂得多。
2:16	K: And so he informs. SS: He conveys certain information.	克：因此由他来教授。史：他来传授某种知识。
2:20	SS: So that is... K: ...fairly simple. SS: That's fairly straightforward.	史：因此，那…… 克：……相当容易。史：这点是显而易见的。
2:24	K: But what is more involved in this relationship? You're the teacher and I happen to be your pupil, your student. What's our relationship, apart from the subject and the information involved in the subject? What's our deeper relationship, if we have any at all?	克：但是在这种关系之中还有什么？你是老师，而我碰巧是你的弟子，你的学生。我们还有什么关系——除了学科，以及学科中所涉及到的知识外？我们更为深层的关系是什么——如果我们有的话？
2:59	Harsh Tanka: I don't quite understand how you are using the word relationship in this context. Surely one relationship between the teacher is to instruct and is there any relationship beyond that?	哈什·坦卡：我不是很懂你在这里所使用的“关系”这个词。无疑，老师和学生之间的关系就是老师教授知识给学生，还有超越这之上的关系吗？
3:16	K: If that is all the relationship one has, which is generally what happens in ordinary schools, then it's very simple. You inform the students about mathematics or whatever subject you teach, and you go back home or go back to your room and forget about the whole thing. But we are not talking of such a superficial relationship, we are talking much more of a relationship where we are living in a community of teachers and students.	克：如果只拥有这样的关系 ——这也是普通学校通常发生的情况—— 那就太简单了。你教学生数学或者教别的什么科目，然后回家之后或者回到你的休息室之后，你就将所有的事都抛却脑后。但我们谈的不是这样一种很肤浅的关系，我们谈的是一种更为深层的关系 ——老师和学生一起生活在一个社区里。
3:59	HT: Most teachers would say that they have a concern for the student which goes beyond just instructing them in the subject, they have a concern with their wellbeing, with...	哈：大多数老师会说他们很关心学生，这种关心超越了只是教授他们学科，他们还关心他们的身心健康
4:13	K: I wonder if that is so. Take an ordinary school in England, or in India, or in America, are they really concerned?	克：我不知道是不是真是这样。就拿英国一所普通的学校来讲，或者印度、美国的来讲他们真的关心吗？
4:24	Wendy Smith: Some of them are concerned, but it's very difficult if you have thirty students in your class and you see them three times a week, where else do you see them, how can you have a relationship?	温迪·史密斯：有一些是真的关心，但是如果你班上有30个学生，那么这就变得很困难了。你一周只见他们三次，你哪能还在别的地方见到他们，你怎么可能和他们建立关系？
4:38	K: That's what I'm saying. If it's an ordinary school there is very little relationship.	克：这就是我说的意思。如果这是所普通的学校，那么就只有很少的关系。
4:45	WS: But you might want to have some more relationship.	温：但是你也许想拥有更多的关系。
4:47	K: That's different. If you want it, how do you set about it?	克：那就不一样了。如果你想的话，那么你要如何着手？
4:53	SS: You probably have to start a school of your own eventually, or join a school that was moving in that direction. One of the two.	史：最终，也许你必须自己开设一所学校，或者加入一所朝着这个方向行动的学校。二者选一。
5:02	HT: Are you saying it's not possible in the school system, to have that kind of relationship?	哈：你的意思是在现有的学校体制下拥有这样的关系是行不通的吗？
5:09	K: I don't see the possibility there at all. Take even Winchester College or any of these public schools, what is the relationship?	克：在那儿我根本看不到任何的可能性。甚至拿温切斯特公学，或者任何别的公立学校来说，其中的关系又是怎样的？
5:23	HT: Well, you would have thought that in a residential school where the teachers are living nearby and the student is there all the time, that they would be in a position to have more.	哈：哦，你可以考虑寄宿学校，在那里老师们就住在附近而学生们也一直待在学校里，他们待在同一个地方，这样就可以有更多的联系。
5:35	K: Generally they have rules, regulations, you must, must not, and there it ends.	克：一般来说，学校都有规章制度，有条例 ——你必须这样，你不可以这样，然后就到此为止了。
5:42	WS: But surely we have to have rules.	温：但无疑，我们必须要有规章制度。
5:45	K: Yes, we have to have rules. I'm not saying that. But we are talking of a relationship between the educator and the student in an ordinary public school, or even in a grammar school – it means very little.	克：是的，我们必须要有规章制度。我并不是那个意思，而是我们谈的是普通公立学校中教育者和学生之间的关系，或者即使在文法学校——也并没有多大意义。
5:59	Mathew Mitchell: That seems also to be the source of a lot of the dissatisfaction with teachers these days who work in ordinary schools. There is some feeling that they would like to reach out more to the people they're working with but they can't, just because of the physical circumstances.	马修·米切尔：这似乎也是时下对普通学校里的老师存有很多不满意的根源所在。我觉得他们其实是愿意和他们共事的人有更多接触的，但是他们却无能为力，就是因为实际环境的缘故。
6:13	K: The system prevents it. Would you say that is so, that's a fact?	克：是体制阻碍的。你觉得是不是这样的，这是事实吗？
6:19	HT: I don't quite see how the system prevents relationship. Surely it would be possible for a teacher to have a relationship with the student if he wanted to.	哈：我不是很明白体制是怎么阻碍关系的。无疑，对老师来说，如果他想和学生拥有一份关系，那么这是有可能办到的。
6:33	K: I wonder if it is possible, in an ordinary school, in public school, or an ordinary grammar school, is that possible?	克：我不知道有没有可能办到——在一所普通学校里，在公立学校，或者是在一所普通的文法学校里，这有可能吗？
6:41	HT: Well, let's take a teacher in an ordinary school.	哈：那就让我们拿普通学校里的一名教师来说好了。
6:44	K: Yes, what does he do?	克：好的，他会怎么做？
6:45	HT: He comes to school in the morning and he maybe goes to an assembly...	哈：他早上来到学校也许会去集合
6:53	K: There is the class, subject. And he teaches for forty five minutes in the morning, afternoon, or something like that, and he tells them, and there is the house master, and he passes them all to him. And there is the game master and the prefects, and the whole system of fagging and all the rest of it, where is the relationship possible there? Relationship in the sense we are talking of, in the sense, feeling responsible for the student, not only academically but morally, socially, his behaviour, his way of thinking and so on, concerned totally. It doesn't exist.	克：学校有课，他有课要上，他上四十五分钟的课 ——在早上，下午或者别的时间段，把知识教授给学生们，学校也配有舍监，接着他就会把学生交给舍监。还有体育指导员和教务长，以及还有跑腿打杂的这整个制度，等等这一切，在这里有可能存在关系吗？我们所谈的“关系”，它的意思是，感到对学生负有责任，不仅仅在学业上负有责任，也对学生的内在、社交负有责任，对他的行为、他思考的方式等等负有责任，整体都关心。但这并没有发生。
7:48	MM: Why not, when they're eating meals or after school is done?	马：为什么不能发生，在他们吃饭时或者在放学后？
7:53	K: We are saying it is possible but it doesn't exist.	克：我们说的这是有可能的，但这并没有发生。
7:56	MM: But it is possible.	马：但这是有可能的。
7:58	K: Anything is possible.	克：一切都有可能。
8:01	Brian Nicholson: It can exist, sometimes. I know some people, friends of mine who are teachers in an ordinary school, and they are really trying very, very hard to build up a relationship with the students. To some extent they're succeeding but always limited by the school they're in.	布莱恩·尼科尔森：这有时会发生。我认识一些人，他们是我的朋友，是普通学校的老师，他们真的非常非常努力地试着和学生建立一种关系。某种程度上讲他们做到了但总是受到他们所在学校的限制。
8:16	K: That's what I am saying, the system prevents it. The modern education is merely concerned with giving information, giving a certain amount of knowledge and helping him to get a career. Isn't that so?	克：这就是我要说的，是体制阻碍了这种关系。现在的教育只关心教授知识，教授一定数量的知识，帮他们得到一份职业。难道不是这样吗？
8:40	SS: I think ambition comes into it at some stage, because in many schools, however well meaning the teachers are, eventually they've been there for three or four years, they want to go on a bit further, to get a better job. So ambition comes into it.	史：我觉得在某个阶段野心就会随之而来，因为在一些学校里，无论多好的老师，他们终究在那儿已经待了有四到五年，他们想有稍微更进一步的发展，想得到一份更好的工作。因此野心就出现了。
8:59	K: So, at what level are we talking about education, about the ordinary education that an average person receives. Or are we having a dialogue about a school where both the educator and the student feel totally responsible?	克：因此，我们所讨论的教育是在什么层次上的，是一般人所受的那种普通教育，还是我们所谈的是这种学校 ——在那里教育者和学生两者都觉得自己负有完全的责任呢？
9:25	HT: We seem to be talking about education and we don't really have a very clear idea of what that means.	哈：我们好像讨论的只是教育，但我们实际上并不明确教育究竟意味着什么。
9:32	K: I think we have, don't we? First of all they need academic training, discipline. You all agree to that.	克：我觉得我们是明确的，不是吗？首先学生需要学业上的培训，需要训导，对此你们都同意。
9:43	HT: Yes. They need skills...	哈：是的，他们需要各种技能
9:47	K: And we also want, or desire, or wish, that they should have social consciousness, socially be conscious of what is happening in the world, morally, in behaviour, the way they talk, that's what I consider education. The development of the whole human being.	克：而我们也想，或者渴望，或者希望，他们要有社会意识，从社会上觉知到这个世界上所发生的一切，觉知他们的品德，行为举止，以及他们说话的方式，这就是我所认为的教育，培育完整的人。
10:21	HT: But attention is given to behaviour and to the moral upbringing or whatever.	哈：但是要去关注他们的行为举止以及关注品德的培养或者别的什么。
10:26	K: It's all discipline: you do this and don't do that.	克：这些都是纪律：你要这样做，不要那样做。
10:30	SS: There a question comes in about being on the same level here really. About the way what you are saying is conveyed, in the sense that you approach it from a position of not being higher or superior to the student but rather you may point something out, but without the implication of a psychological superiority.	史：实际上这里就有个问题出现了 ——关于处在同一层次上的问题。关于传达你所说的内容的方式，也就是，你并不是站在某个立场去探究它的 ——不是高于或者优越于学生的立场，而是从你可以给他们指出某些事实，但在心理上却没有优越感。
11:11	K: That's right. And also, isn't the question here, the student comes conditioned and the teacher, the educator is conditioned, both are conditioned. Conditioned according to the culture and so on, so on. And as far as one observes, one is helping them to conform or fit into the wider or narrower conditioning. Would you say that?	克：没错。并且，这里的问题难道不就是 ——学生是带着局限来的，而老师、教育者也深受局限，两者都深受局限，受文化等等的局限。而依我所见，老师只是在帮助他们去顺从或者适应范围更广的或者更狭隘的局限而已。你们这么认为吗？
11:46	HT: Well, I am not so sure that I would say that. I would say that, as most teachers would say, they are interested in the moral upbringing in a much wider aspect. Whether they can do it is a different question.	哈：哦，我不确定我是不是会这么认为。我会说——就像大多数老师的说法：他们志在培养学生更为广阔的品德，而能不能做到就另当别论了。
12:03	K: The idea and the fact are different. I would like to be something but the fact is I am not.	克：观念和事实是两回事。我想这样，但事实上我不是这样的。
12:12	HT: And most teachers would say they're trying, but...	哈：大多数老师都会说他们在努力，但是
12:16	K: So what are we discussing, that's what I would like to find out. Are we talking over together the average school, either public, or grammar schools, or a school like this, at Brockwood, where we are concerned with the total cultivation of man, or the student, and so ourselves. I don't know if I am conveying this.	克：因此我们所讨论的东西也是我想弄清楚的。我们是不是在一起讨论，通常的学校，无论是公立学校、文法学校，还是像布洛克伍德这样的一所学校，在这样的学校里我们关心的是对人的全面培养 ——对学生，也包括对我们自己。我不知道我是不是传达到了这点。
12:50	BN: We've all decided to come here rather than to teach at an ordinary school. So, really we have to talk about this school.	布：我们都已决定来这里而不是待在一所普通的学校里教学。因此，我们真的必须得谈谈这所学校。
12:58	K: So we are talking about this school. Then let's talk about that. Not the average, the people who want to do this but can't, and so on. So let's start from here, shall we? Is that it? You all agree? What are we trying to do here? If we could talk frankly and openly, what are we trying to do?	克：所以我们谈的是这所学校 ——那么就让我们来谈谈吧—— 不是一般的学校，人们想这么做却无法去做的学校等等。那就让我们从这里开始探究吧，可以吗？是这样吗？你们都同意吗？我们在这儿想做什么？如果我们可以开诚布公地讨论的话，那么，我们想做的是什么？
13:36	SS: We're trying to bring about some learning through understanding, which is not an understanding in a particular area but rather understanding per se, some kind of universal understanding.	史：我们想带来的是一种经由了解而来的学习 ——这种了解不是对某个特定的领域有所了解，而是了解本身 ——一种整体性的了解。
13:52	K: Would you explain that, I don't understand it. Would you explain it.	克：你能对此解释一下吗，我不懂你说的意思，你可否解释一下？
14:02	SS: Generally knowledge is assimilated in fragments or in parts, mathematical parts, physics, a language, we also do this here, the student learns, not six or eight subjects but...	史：一般来讲，知识是片段式地或部分地被吸收的——数学的部分、物理或一门语言，在这里我们也是这么做的，学生学习的不是六至八门学科，而是
14:14	K: My question is, what are we trying to do here as a community, as a teacher and the relationship with the student, and the student with the community and with the teacher, together, as a body of people, what is it we are trying to do?	克：我的问题是，我们想在这儿做的 ——作为一个团体想在这儿做的，作为一名和学生有关系的老师，以及和这个团体、和老师有关系的学生，两者一起，作为一个团体的人，我们想做的是什么？
14:31	SS: Well, I am trying to work round to it by saying this. In a school, in any school, it's necessary at some point to point things out to others. That is part of one's responsibility, as I see it anyway. Now, the significant thing seems to be that if you are able to point this thing out in such a way that it would make sense to the other person, that he sees the point of it, then that also becomes part of his own learning, and also it's part of your learning as well because you've learned how to convey it.	史：哦，我想通过说这些来逐步讲到那一点。在学校里——任何一所学校里，在某些时候给别人指明事情是必需的 ——总之，在我看来，这是我们的一种责任。那么，有意义的事情就是如果你能够给别人指明问题 ——让这样的指明对别人是有意义的，能让别人看到问题的关键，那么，这也就成了他自身的学习的一部分，同样这也成了你的一种学习，因为你学习了如何去传达。
15:21	K: Have you answered my question?	克：你回答了我的问题吗？
15:23	SS: That is what we're doing.	史：我们就在回答你的问题。
15:24	K: No, what is it we are trying to do? Have you answered my question?	克：不是的，我们想做的是什么？你回答了我的问题吗？
15:30	SS: I am trying to answer the question.	史：我正试着回答你的问题。
15:34	HT: All of us have some very different ideas. We might not be able to get at it.	哈：我们大家都抱有各不相同的概念。我们可能没有理解你的问题。
15:41	K: No, we've had the school, you have been here for a number of years, and so has he, and all of us, what is it together we are trying to do?	克：好的，我们已经有了这所学校，你来这里已经有几年了，他也是，我们都是，我们在一起想做的到底是什么？
15:49	WS: Part of what we're trying to do is actually live together rather than separately.	温：我们想做的有一部分是真正生活在一起，而不是各自分开生活。
15:57	K: You are living together in the same house.	克：你们现在就住在同一个屋檐下。
15:59	WS: Yes, but I mean actually co-operate and work, all that living together involves without necessarily avoiding each other.	温：是的，但我实际上指的是互相合作和工作，一起生活所涉及到的一切，无需互相避讳。
16:07	K: Is that what you are doing here?	克：这就是你们在这里所做的吗？
16:09	MM: It certainly seems to be part of it.	马：肯定是其中的一部分。
16:11	WS: It's a part of what we're trying to do.	温：这只是我们想做的一部分。
16:14	MM: Also when you ask that question what immediately comes to my mind is – I don't know how to express it – except perception, to begin to learn how to look at things, because we don't know how to look at ourselves, or to look at anything just clearly. We have thoughts, some sort of guide lines with which we look at things. To learn how to perceive things clearly.	马：在你这么问的时候即刻闪过我脑海的是 ——除了洞察它外，我不知道怎么将它表达出来—— 我们要开始学习如何看待事物，因为我们都不知道如何去看我们自己，或者如何很清楚地看待一切。我们有着各种念头，持有某些准则，带着这些准则我们去看事物。我们要学习如何很清晰地洞察事物。
16:36	K: What do you say, what is it we are doing here, not only trying, actually doing? Trying becomes rather vague and rather indefinite but what is it actually we are doing?	克：你认为，我们在这里所做的是什么， ——不只是尝试，而是实际上在做的？尝试是相当含糊、相当不明确的，而实际上我们在做的是什么？
16:55	HT: We're looking at the way we live. We're looking at it in relationship and trying to understand how we are, what we are...	哈：我们在审视我们的生活方式。我们在关系中审视它，想去了解我们实际是怎样的，了解我们的现状
17:13	SS: I would say we're working for a common understanding, which is not a personal understanding, which is not an understanding of this person but a common understanding.	史：我认为我们正在做的是一种普遍的了解 ——不是一种针对个人的了解，不是了解这个人，而是一种普遍的了解。
17:32	MM: It's very difficult to put into words.	马：很难去诉诸言词。
17:34	K: You are leaving me rather vague about all this.	克：你的意思让我觉得很含糊。
17:36	MM: What would that mean? SS: A common understanding.	马：那是什么意思？史：一种普遍的了解。
17:39	MM: It sounds nice, how do you work towards that?	马：这听起来很棒，对此你是如何做的？
17:45	K: Are we concerned, if I may ask, not only with the present activities of living, relationship, and academics, informing the students academically, etc., or are we also concerned, what's going to happen to them in the future, when they leave here. What is their life, whether they are going to be absorbed into the whole mass of the average?	克：我们是不是关心——如果我可以问的话，不仅仅关心眼下生活的各种活动，关心关系以及学业，关心在学业上教授学生，等等，我们是不是还关心未来他们会如何 ——当他们离开这个地方的时候。他们的生活会怎样，是否会被平庸的大多数人所吞噬呢？
18:22	SS: That relates to it.	史：这是相互关联的。
18:23	K: So are we concerned not only with the now, the now being good relationship, helping them to understand not only mathematics but understand the whole significance of life, and also be concerned with the future of their lives.	克：因此我们关心 ——不仅关心眼下，眼下拥于良好的关系，不但帮他们学会数学，也帮他们去了解生活的全部意义，同时也关心他们的将来。
18:47	WS: But surely, the now is inextricably related to the future. I mean, how you look at life now and work on life.	温：但是，无疑，当下和将来是密不可分的。我是说，当下你是如何看待生活以及对生活产生影响的。
18:56	K: That's just it. How do they look at life now? How do we look at life now? How do we help the student or ourselves to understand the now, what is happening now?	克：就是这样的。他们当下是如何看待生活的？我们当下是如何看待生活的？我们要如何帮助学生或者自己去了解当下，当下发生的是什么？
19:12	BN: I was on holiday last month with two students from this school, and there were two or three children who spent some time with us, who went to ordinary local schools, and they couldn't understand the relationship which I had with these students. They kept on asking, won't he be cross if you don't do the work? Or, why don't you call him sir? and so on. They sometimes just stood there watching us. They couldn't understand what was happening.	布：上个月我和这个学校的两个学生一起度假，另外还有两三个孩子，他们和我们一起待了些时间，他们上的是当地的普通学校，而他们无法理解我和学生们之间的关系。他们不断地问，如果你不像个老师，学生不会变得很嚣张吗？或者，为什么你会称他为先生呢？等等。有时候他们只是站在那边看着我们。他们弄不懂是怎么回事。
19:43	K: That's what I want to get at. Are we concerned not only with the actualities of present living, our relationship with each other, whether it is personal or whether it is objective, whether we are cultivating the mind, the brain, the capacity to think, to think objectively, sanely, and also the sense of affection, all that. And will that sustain them right through life? You follow what I am saying? Or they will be caught in these traps?	克：这就是我想说明的。我们是不是不仅关心当下生活的现状、关心我们相互之间的关系，无论它是个人化的还是客观的，以及我们是不是在培育心灵、头脑客观而健全地思考的能力，并且我们也关心慈爱感，这一切。并且贯穿他们的整个人生这些会不会一直支撑着他们呢？ ——你们跟上我说的吗—— 还是他们会落入这些陷阱之中呢？
20:30	SS: They may be caught after being here.	史：他们有可能在离开这儿之后会陷入其中。
20:33	K: I want to prevent that. If I have a son and a daughter and I send them here, I'd say, please help him not to be caught in these traps.	克：我想阻止这样的事。如果我有儿女，我把他们送到这里，我会说，请帮助他们不要落入这些陷阱之中。
20:44	SS: Well, of course. Some are not caught, but some are also.	史：好的，当然。有些人可以不陷入，但有些不行。
20:54	K: I want my children not to be caught in the trap, in this rat race that goes on. Whether it's in India, here, or in America, this perpetual struggle.	克：我不想自己的孩子们落于陷阱之中，陷入这些激烈的竞争之中。无论是在印度，在这儿，还是在美国，这种无休止的斗争之中。
21:08	WS: So surely, the only way we can help them is to make sure that they develop a real understanding of what the struggle is.	温：因此毫无疑问，我们能帮到他们的唯一方法就是确保他们对什么是“斗争”有一个真正的了解。
21:18	K: Are we actually doing that? I'm just questioning it, I'm not saying you're not. Are we actually seeing that they have this quality of intelligence, which is not the intelligence of ideas and all that, but this intelligence that will help them to ward off danger, keep away from all the travail of man, are we doing that?	克：我们实际上在这么做吗？我只是在问这个问题，并不是说你们没有。我们是不是从实际上在确保他们拥有这种品质的智慧 ——它并不是持有各种观念之类的智慧—— 而是这种智慧会帮他们免于危险，远离人类所有的痛苦，我们是在这么做吗？
21:57	BN: We're certainly trying but we're not always succeeding.	布：我们确实在这么尝试，但并不总是会成功。
22:00	K: Not with every student. Now let's come back, down to earth again. Are we saying that this is the purpose or the intention of this place?	克：不是每个学生都能成功。现在，让我们回过头去，再次切实地面对我们的问题。我们是在说这是这所学校的意图或者打算吗？
22:16	Teachers: Yes.	老师们：是的。
22:19	K: Then how do we carry it out?	克：那么我们要怎么实施它？
22:25	SS: I don't think it can be carried out in an unfailing way. That is, in such a way as there will be no casualties, so to speak, that's not possible.	史：我认为这无法以一种永不会错的方式去贯彻实施 ——也就是一种不会有损伤的方式，换句话说，不可能有这样的方式。
22:38	K: But I am saying, we understand the basis of the school. How do we bring it about?	克：但是我说，我们明白这所学校的根本意旨，那么我们要如何实现它？
22:54	MM: I think that's the question we've all been asking ourselves. We're attempting to do that but we don't quite know, we're feeling that out.	马：我觉得这是一个我们一直都在问自己的问题。我们打算这么做，但我们也不是很有把握，我们只是在摸索。
23:02	K: I am asking you, what shall we do? I leave my daughter and my son here – I haven't got any, but if I leave them here – and I say, please, sirs and ladies, it's your responsibility to see that these two are not thrown to the wolves, are not caught in the social machine, or become mediocre, average, unintelligent citizens. I say it is your responsibility. And what shall we do, we are together as a community of teachers what shall we do? That's what I want to get at, you are not answering my question.	克：我是在问你们，我们该怎么做？我把自己的女儿和儿子放在这里 ——我没有儿女，但是如果我把他们放在这里，我说，“先生们、女士们，这是你们的责任 ——确保这两个孩子不要让他们落入狼群里，不要让他们陷入社会机器之中，或者让他们变成庸常的、平庸的、毫无智慧的人。我觉得这是你们的责任。” 那么我们要怎么做，我们一起作为同一个团队的老师，我们要怎么做？这就是我想知道的，你们没有在回答我的问题。
24:00	HT: Well, we can't help the student if we are mediocre and unintelligent ourselves.	哈：哦，我们无法帮到学生 ——如果连我们自己也平庸和毫无智慧的话。
24:10	K: So, will you wait until you become intelligent, not mediocre, and then become the teacher?	克：因此，你们是不是会等到你们变得很有智慧、不再平庸为止，然后才去做老师呢？
24:18	HT: We can't, they're here already.	哈：我们不可能这样，他们已经在这儿了。
24:20	K: That's impossible. That's too stupid to say, I'll wait until I make myself all right and then come to teach. So, our relationship then is, I am not totally stupid, conditioned, and the student is, so we both are on the same level.	克：这不可能。这么说太愚蠢了——我要等到自己样样都行了然后才去教他们。因此，然后我们的关系是 ——我并不是完全愚蠢的、受限的，而学生也是一样—— 我们双方处在一样的位置。
24:50	SS: Yes, that's very important.	史：是的，这非常重要。
24:52	K: That is really important, except when you are giving information about mathematics, that's a different matter, or history, or language and so on.	克：这真的非常重要，除了在你教授数学知识的时候，那另当别论，或者历史知识，又或者教授语言等等。
25:02	SS: Psychologically on the same level.	史：心理上我们处在同一层次上。
25:04	K: So, psychologically, we are on the same level. Now, how shall we help each other to be free of our mediocrity?	克：因此，我们心理上处在同一层次。那么，我们要怎么互相帮助来使我们摆脱平庸呢？
25:18	HT: Can we stay with this, Krishnaji, this is a tremendous thing you're saying now.	哈：我们能不能和它共处，克里希那吉，你现在说的是一件非同寻常的事。
25:23	K: I know, I am doing this.	克：我知道，我是在这么做。
25:25	HT: That we are psychologically on the same level as a student.	哈：我们在心理上和学生处在同一个层次上。
25:28	K: Absolutely. I feel that way.	克：绝对是——我觉得是如此。
25:30	WS: It becomes difficult sometimes because when one is older one feels that you have, in a sense, more experience.	温：这有时会变得很难，因为如果你较为年长，那么你就会觉得你有 ——从某种意义上来说——更多的经验。
25:38	K: About what? Wait, no, just look at it. Sex, drink, smoking, what?	克：关于什么的经验？等一下，不是的，看看这一点。性的经验、饮酒的经验、抽烟的经验，这些吗？
25:50	SS: There are other things as well. K: What? Climbing the mountains?	史：还有别的。克：别的什么？爬山的经验吗？
25:55	SS: No, you may also have gone through the war, you may have been a conscientious objector, and gone to prison for that. So you have stuck your neck out in some way probably.	史：不是的，你也许还经历了战争，你也许是个拒服兵役的人，并因此而坐过牢。因此，在某些方面你也许冒过险。
26:08	K: That's a different matter. So I'm just saying, look, if we are on the same level with the student, how shall we begin to free ourselves from the results which society and ourselves have imposed upon ourselves? That is the problem, no?	克：那是另一回事。我只是在说，瞧，如果我们和学生处在同一层面上，那么我们要如何着手从这些后果中解脱出来 ——这些后果是社会和我们强加在自己身上的？就是这个问题，不是吗？
26:33	HT: I'm not quite sure that we see the necessity for being on the same level, that we are on the same level as the student.	哈：我不是很确定我们看到了处在同一层面上的必要性，也就是我们和学生处在同一个层面上的必要性。
26:39	K: No, not necessity, it's a fact. As a human being, one is conditioned, if you agree to that. Then the student is conditioned by his father, by his mother, by his friends, by the society he lives in and so on, books he reads, television, he is conditioned by all that. So the teacher is also. Not exactly, but they are both conditioned. Now how are we to help each other to – if I may use the word – uncondition it themselves?	克：不，不是必要性，而是这是个事实。作为一个人，我们都是受局限的 ——如果你对此同意的话，那么，学生受制于他父亲、他母亲的局限受制于他的朋友，以及他所处的社会等等的局限，受制于他所读的书籍、电视的局限——他受制于这一切。而老师也是如此。不完全一样，但他们双方都是深受局限的。那么，我们要如何互相帮助 ——如果我可以用这个词的话——使得自己解除局限呢？
27:26	SS: Are all conditionings equal?	史：所有的局限都是相同的吗？
27:30	K: No. It's a good question, let's stick to it. Is there a common factor which is the actual conditioning? You follow? Teachers: Yes.	克：不是。这个问题很好，就让我们锁定这个问题吧。是不是有一种共同的因素——也就是实际的局限呢？你们跟上了吗？老师们：是的。
27:52	K: As an Englishman, you are conditioned in a certain way. And another as a German, or comes from India, it doesn't matter, America. Time, the climate, the food, the language, the television, religion, the superstitions, all that has made him what he is, and more. What is the common factor in all human beings who are conditioned?	克：作为一个英国人，你在某方面深受局限。而另一个德国人，或者来自于印度的人 ——这不打紧，或者是美国人，时间、气候、食物、语言、电视节目、宗教、各种盲目的信仰 ——这一切让他成为了现在的模样，或者更甚。那么我们深受局限的全人类共同的因素是什么呢？
28:34	SS: You mean more than the fact of conditioning itself? Or different from the fact of conditioning itself?	史：你指的是远不止受局限的事实本身？还是说是有别于受局限的事实本身呢？
28:41	K: You are an Englishman and I happen to be born in India, what is the common factor in our conditioning? Language, is it?	克：你是英国人，而我碰巧出生在印度，那么我们所受的局限之中的共同因素是什么呢？是语言，是吗？
28:53	SS: Well, it could be.	史：哦，语言可能是。
28:55	K: It could be. That's what I want to eliminate. Is it climate?	克：语言可能是局限，而这就是我想消除的。是气候吗？
29:00	SS: Definitely not.	史：当然不是。
29:06	K: This awful spring. Food? Literature, television, the magazines? Go on, watch it, don't say no. And the upbringing, the tradition, being British and all the pride in that word, and another born in India he has got the same pride, the same religious superstitions, only he is darker, probably not as strong as you are, physically, malnourished and so on, so on. What is the common factor between these two?	克：这个糟糕的春天。是食物吗？是文学、电视节目、杂志吗？继续，看一看，不要说不是的。是不是教养、传统，是不是英国人以及这个词所含的所有自豪感，而另一个出生于印度的人也带着同样的自豪感，带着同样的宗教迷信，只是他肤色黑一点，或许体格上不如你强壮，有些营养不良等等。那么在这两个人之间有什么共同的因素呢？
30:05	SS: So you're saying only the form is different.	史：因此你的意思是他们只是外形不同而已。
30:07	K: That's all.	克：就是这样。
30:13	HT: They might be proud about different things, or they might hold different gods.	哈：他们也许对于这些不同点感觉很自豪，或者他们可能信仰着不同的神明。
30:17	K: Of course, but it's the same movement. So if we agree the educator and the student are both conditioned in their own way, and the central factor is to be free of this, to become human beings, not labels – if we can put it that way.	克：当然，但都是同一种运动。因此，如果我们都同意教育者和学生双方自身都是深受局限的，并且赞同核心的因素就是摆脱这一点，去成为真正的人，而不是成为各种标签 ——如果我们可以这么表达的话。
30:41	SS: Yes, so the movement you speak of is a psychological movement,	史：是的，因此你所指的运动是一种心理上的运动，
30:46	K: Obviously. SS: Which is common to all. I think we perhaps ought to pause over that for a minute. After all what is the common factor to an Englishman, to a German, to a Russian, or Indian, or an American, the common factor is they all have this enormous sense of ambition, the common factor of fear, the common factor of pursuing pleasure, the common factor of suffering, struggle, anxiety, grief, lack of love, and all that is the common factor between all of us. So you're saying now that there is the educator and the student...	克：显然是的。史：它是所有人共有的。我认为我们也许应该在此停留一小会儿。说到底，这共同的因素——对英国人，对德国人、俄国人、印度人、美国人来说，这种共同的因素就是他们都拥有巨大的野心，共同的因素是恐惧，共同的因素是追求快乐，共同的因素是苦难、挣扎，还有忧虑、悲伤、缺乏爱，这一切就是存在于我们所有人之间的共同因素。因此你现在说教育者和学生
31:29	K: They're in the same boat. Exactly the same thing.	克：他们同舟共济，他们完全是一回事。
31:35	WS: The expressions might be different.	温：只是表达不同而已。
31:37	K: Yes, you might express it by going to church, and another might express it when he goes up to his room crying. That's irrelevant. The factor is we all go through the same phenomena. Now, as an educator and as the student, that's the common factor. Or would you disagree there?	克：是的，你也许通过去教堂来表达，而另一个人可能跑到自己的房间里大喊大叫来表达 ——这不重要。共同的因素就是我们都经历着同样的事实。那么，作为教育者和学生，这是我们双方都拥有的共同因素。还是你们对此不同意？
32:10	HT: No, we seem to agree.	哈：不，我们同意。
32:12	K: Don't easily agree, because if both of us see that it's common then we can do something together.	克：不要轻易同意，因为如果我们双方都看到这是我们共有的，那么我们就可以一起来做点什么。
32:22	HT: But why is this so important in education, the fact that both of us may be afraid but of different things? Why is that so important?	哈：但是为什么在教育之中，这一点会显得这么举足轻重：事实上我们都恐惧，只是可能害怕的东西不一样而已？为什么这点会显得这么的重要呢？
32:32	K: Because fear, whether it is in the educator or in the student, what does it do? It cripples a human being, it dulls the mind, it creates havoc in one's life. No?	克：因为恐惧 ——不论是教育者内心的恐惧还是学生内心的恐惧恐惧都做了些什么？它削弱了人类，使人的心灵钝化，它制造了我们生活中的混乱。不是吗？
32:53	BN: My daughter is just seven years old every time I see her again she has picked up things from somewhere which are making it not easy for her to see straight, and so one has to say, where do you get this from, and why, and is it true, all the time.	布：我女儿只有7岁大，每次我又看到她手里拿起了东西 ——这些东西都是从妨碍她视线的地方拿的，我们因此都会问她，你是从哪儿拿的，为什么要拿，这样做对吗——每次都会问。
33:05	K: If we all agree that it is the common factor for all of us, how shall we help each other to be free of all this? That is the function of the educator.	克：如果我们都同意这是我们大家共有的因素，那么，我们要怎么互相帮助从中解脱出来呢？这是教育者的职责。
33:16	WS: Surely we must want to be free of it first.	温：无疑，我们首先必须想从中解脱出来。
33:22	K: No. See the dangers of it. One is born in India with all the cultural, religious, climatic, malnourishment and so on and so on, and here you have the opposite, marvellous climate – sometimes – good food, sanitary, all that. But you as a human being and he as a human being, go through extraordinary miseries, wars, deprivations, tremendous sense of guilt and depression, all that. And if you are an educator, that's your function, to say look, let's work this out, and don't let's be caught in all this.	克：不，看到它的危险。我出生在印度——伴随着印度所有的文化、宗教、气候以及营养不良等等等等，而这儿——正相反—— 有着很棒的气候——有时候—— 还有美食，卫生设施，这一切。而作为人类的一员，你和他同样都经受着各种巨大的痛苦、战争、匮乏，承受着深深的罪恶感和沮丧感，这一切。而如果你身为一名教育者，那么，你的职责就是说：“瞧，让我们一起来解决它吧，我们不要陷在这一切之中。”
34:24	WS: But is it possible? I think there's also a feeling that in a certain sense maybe it's not possible to be free of all this.	温：但这有可能做到吗？我觉得还有另一种想法就是从某种意义上来说，摆脱这一切也许是不可能的。
34:34	K: Then you're admitting something terrible. If you say it's not possible then you are caught in this.	克：那你就是在接受很糟糕的事。如果你说这是不可能的，那么你就陷在这当中了。
34:43	WS: But if that's all I know, how could I possibly be free of that?	温：但是，如果我只知道这些，我又如何可能摆脱这一切呢？
34:47	K: If you only know fear, don't you want to be free of it?	克：如果你只知道恐惧，难道你不想摆脱它吗？
34:52	WS: Yes, but how can I if that's all I know?	温：想，但是如果我只知道这些，我又能怎么做呢？
34:56	K: Aren't you aware that there's fear? WS: Yes.	克：难道你没有觉知到恐惧吗？温：觉知到了。
35:00	K: Don't you want to be out of it? WS: Yes.	克：难道你不想从中解脱出来吗？温：想的。
35:03	K: So does the student. He's afraid of exams, he's afraid of a dozen things, public opinion – you may not, but fear is common to us. He expresses it one way and we express it another way.	克：那么学生也一样。他害怕考试，他害怕一打的事，他害怕公众舆论——你也许不害怕，但是我们都有恐惧，他用这种方式来表达恐惧，而我们则用别的方式来表达。
35:25	HT: Now we are saying that we must help the student to be free of his fears, anxieties.	哈：现在我们在说我们必须帮助学生从他的各种恐惧、各种忧虑之中解脱出来。
35:31	K: Aren't we? That is my responsibility. Our responsibility, as a group of teachers.	克：难道不是吗？这是我的责任。这是我们这一群老师的责任。
35:37	SS: Or we must understand the nature of fear itself.	史：或者我们必须了解恐惧本身的实质。
35:43	K: Yes, that's what I mean.	克：是的，这正是我的意思。
35:45	WS: So it's not just the student but for both of us.	温：因此这不仅仅是学生要了解而是我们双方都要了解。
35:48	K: Because both are related, we're both in the same boat.	克：因为老师和学生两者是相关联的，我们是同坐一条船的。
35:54	WS: So the student might help us as much we help the student.	温：因此，学生也可以帮到我们，正如我们可以帮到他们一样。
35:58	K: That's what I want to get at. BN: It's an actual fact, it happens. My daughter helps me as much as I help her, as well as students.	克：这就是我想说的。布：这是个真实的事实，它时有发生。我女儿帮了我，而我也一样帮了她，对学生也一样。
36:07	K: Is this what education is, or is it merely to help the student to become the average, mediocre, clever, cunning citizen, ambitious, greedy, envious, fighting each other, killing each other, the whole modern society.	克：这是不是就是教育，还是教育只是让学生成为普通、平庸、聪明、狡猾的公民而已，变得野心勃勃、贪婪、善妒，互相斗争、互相厮杀 ——整个现代社会的现状。
36:35	HT: But now we have to deal with all the pressures of society because we want to understand what fear is and we want to be free, both the teacher and the student want to be free of all those things that will make life difficult, but there's the pressure of earning a livelihood, of exams.	哈：但是，现在我们不得不面对社会的所有压力，因为我们想要了解什么是恐惧并想从中解脱出来，学生和老师都想获得解脱，摆脱所有那些让生活变得很艰难的事情，但确实存在谋生、考试的压力。
36:56	K: No, here the pressure of earning a livelihood is not, for the time being.	克：不，谋生的压力在这里还没有 ——暂时没有。
37:03	SS: Well, it's in abeyance because very early on the student, for instance, discovers that examinations are the means to a certificate...	史：哦，只是暂时搁置了，因为从很早起，学生——比如说—— 就发现各种考试是获得文凭的途径
37:16	K: So can we find a method, or a way of not having exams, or treating exams as though it were nothing? A level and O level, the whole business of it?	克：因此，我们能不能找到一种方法，或者方式——没有考试，或者不把考试看成是什么大不了的事呢？ A级别到O级别——能不能完全没有这些东西？
37:32	WS: But if I feel that the only way I can get a job is by having that.	温：但如果我觉得我能获得一份工作的唯一办法就是通过考试。
37:36	K: No, but we might find out a way of not being afraid of exams, you understand what I am saying? Or during the whole term, or couple of terms, or whatever it is, watching students and say, he's good enough, you're all right, so as to remove the fear of these beastly exams. Watch him throughout the year, the student, say look, study a little more, encourage him, and all the rest of it, so that when the final horror comes he says it is not a horror at all, he goes through. Can we do that?	克：不，但也许我们能找出不害怕考试的方法，你了解我说的吗？或者在整个学期期间，或者两个学期期间，又或者几个学期期间，我们照看学生，然后对他说，他非常优秀——你不会有问题的，以此来解除这些残酷的考试带来的恐惧。整年都照看他——照看学生，对他说，“瞧，再多下一点功夫”，鼓励他，等等，这样当最后可怕的考试到来时他会说，考试根本不可怕，他通过了。我们能不能这么做呢？
38:35	SS: One does that but seemingly, at the last moment, so to speak, and the student may feel that it is nevertheless a horror. One has protected him from the horror in a sense, but the horror is still waiting.	史：我们能做到，但是似乎到了最后——恕我直言—— 虽然如此，学生也许还是会觉得考试是恐怖的。我们保护了他让他一定程度上免于恐惧，但恐惧还是伺机而动。
38:54	K: Who invented exams? The Chinese? The Mandarins? I believe they were the original people who kind of invented this monstrous system.	克：是谁发明了考试？中国吗？是中国的官吏们吗？我认为他们是最初发明这种极端荒谬的体制的人。
39:11	BN: But you obviously do need some exams at some stage if people are going to build bridges, or be doctors, it has to be clear to themselves and to everybody else.	布：但是很显然，在某些阶段你确实需要某种测试 ——如果人们打算修筑桥梁，或者做医生的话，测试会让他们对自己和对别人有清楚的认识。
39:21	K: Yes, but is it possible to help the student not to be afraid of exams?	克：是的，但是有没有可能去帮助学生不害怕考试呢？
39:30	BN: If you really had time to do the teaching properly, yes, you can, I think.	布：如果你真的有时间去做正确的教育的话，那么，是的，你可以——我认为。
39:35	K: That's what I'm trying to get at.	克：这是我想弄明白的。
39:40	WS: I think it's just a fear. I'm not sure it is just a fear of exams actually. I think it goes a lot deeper than that really. It's not just a fear of examinations, it's a fear of the future, and fear of not being secure, with having your exams.	温：我认为这就是恐惧。我不认为这实际上只是害怕考试而已，我觉得，其实这要比害怕考试更为深层一些 ——这不只是害怕考试，而是害怕未来，害怕不安全——伴随着这些考试。
39:55	K: So what does that mean? Fear of not being successful.	克：因此这是什么意思呢？害怕无法成功。
40:00	WS: That's much stronger than any teaching you can do.	温：这种害怕要强烈得多，远远超过你能给他们的任何教导。
40:06	K: So, we all worship the god of success.	克：因此，我们都崇拜成功之神。
40:11	WS: That's much stronger.	温：这强烈得多。
40:12	K: So can we go into it, can we go into it with the student and say look, what is this whole idea of success? Why has it become so important in life?	克：因此，我们能不能对此探究一下，我们能不能和学生一起探究，并提出，“瞧，整个成功的概念是什么？为什么成功在生活中变得这么重要？”
40:28	WS: It seems also to do with self-fulfilment too, that part of fulfilling yourself.	温：似乎也和自我成就有关，那是一种自我成就。
40:34	K: All that's involved. Like a boy I heard the other day, he said, my ambition is to become prime minister. No, he really meant it. Not here. I met somebody and his son was saying that. I am going to devote my life to becoming the prime minister. And probably he will.	克：这一切都相关。就像我几天前听到一个小男孩，他说，我的志向是成为首相。是的，他真的就是这个意思。不是在这儿，是我碰到的一个人，他儿子这么说的， “我打算毕生致力于成为首相”。也许他会成为首相的。
41:03	HT: What puts that kind of idea into people's heads?	哈：是什么把这种想法放进人们的脑子里了？
41:10	K: Our whole culture is that. A man who is not successful, he's considered beneath, he's treated with contempt.	克：是我们整个的文化。一个不成功的人，他就会被看轻，他会受到冷遇。
41:27	HT: Now we are saying that we are putting ourselves against the whole of culture and society.	哈：那么，我们的意思是——我们是反对整个文化和社会的。
41:32	K: Against the whole current of this modern world. I am for that, anyhow.	克：反对当今这个世界的整个趋势。不管怎样，我是这么做的。
41:42	HT: We must be careful here because we aren't just talking about revolution in the sense that it is known about: in destroying the system, destroying society, getting rid of exams or whatever it is.	哈：讲到这我们必须谨慎，因为我们谈的不止是 “革命”这个词众所周知的意思：破除体制，推翻社会，革除考试或者别的什么。
41:55	K: No, I am not getting rid of exams. We are trying to help the student to understand the whole meaning of success, what is implied in it, and whether he is going to give all his life to this idea of becoming something in the world. Look, it is not only in this physical mundane world, but also spiritually, the ordinary priest is ambitious to become the bishop. And the bishop wants to become the archbishop, or the cardinal wanting to become the pope. It's the same pattern.	克：不，我不是要革除考试。我们是想要帮助学生去了解成功的整个含义 ——它其中所蕴含的东西，以及去了解他自己是不是打算毕生都投入到在世上功成名就的想法中去。瞧，这个想法不仅仅存在于这个世俗的物质世界之中，也存在于精神世界之中，普通的牧师野心勃勃地想成为主教。而主教想做大主教，或者红衣主教想做教皇。这是同样的模式。
42:41	BN: And the parents may be saying, if you don't pass your exams you can't stay on at Brockwood for another year.	布：而父母可能会说，如果你通不过考试，那么明年你就不能待在布洛克伍德了。
42:47	K: That's right. So can we as educators go into this with the student and say, do we see the danger of it?	克：没错，因此作为教育者的我们能不能和学生一起对此探究并指出：我们是不是看到了其中的危险呢？
43:00	HT: This wanting to be is so deep rooted.	哈：这种想成为什么是如此的根深蒂固。
43:03	K: I know, that is our conditioning.	克：我知道，那是我们的局限。
43:06	WS: The educators have it themselves too.	温：教育者们自己也是深受局限的。
43:08	K: That's what I'm saying.	克：这就是我说的意思。
43:10	WS: So surely we must start looking as well at ourselves, we can't just point it out to the student.	温：因此，无疑，我们必须也开始看我们自己，我们不能只是给学生们指出来。
43:15	K: No, can we have a dialogue about it with the students. In the course of the dialogue I am freeing myself, and helping the student to get free of this goddess. I don't know, I've watched it all over the world this extraordinary phenomenon of success. Be somebody in the world.	克：没错，我们能不能和学生对此做一次对话。在对话过程之中我使自己得到解脱，并且也帮助学生摆脱对成功女神的崇拜。我不知道，我在世界各地观察到这种崇拜成功的非常现象 ——要在世上做个人物。
43:47	SS: Are we also suggesting that, in our discussion, we would uncover something of greater value?	史：我们是不是也在暗示，在我们的讨论之中我们将会揭示出某些更具价值的东西呢？
43:58	K: Of course. Aren't you reversing the whole way of thinking about oneself? Now we think, I must be a businessman, I must be an executive when I grow up, even if I fail I must be a foreman in a factory, I must be the shop steward, the whole thing is this.	克：当然。难道你们没在颠覆对自己的整个看法吗？现在我们都认为，我一定要当个生意人，我长大后，一定要做总经理，即使没成功，那我也要做个工厂里的领班，我要做工会代表——这整件事就是这样的。
44:39	SS: Is it that, or is it also confused because the person wants to be those things, he is ambitious, and yet he feels perhaps in the back of his mind that he would like to be free, he would like to be less bothered, he would like to have a free life but he's caught.	史：是不是这样的，还是说，这同样也很混乱，因为这个想要变成这些的人，他是野心勃勃的，然而他也许也感觉到在自己的内心深处他想要的是自由，他想少受些打扰，他想要自由的生活但却被生活所困。
45:06	K: He would like it but the fact is he's caught by the throat.	克：他想要自由，但实际上却被扼住了喉咙。
45:11	SS: Has this dichotomy come about in culture itself?	史：这种分裂是不是产生于文化本身？
45:15	K: That's what I'm saying. I mean, you are always comparing B to A, which begins the idea of success. So can we as educators discuss this or have a real serious dialogue and point it out to them what is involved in it.	克：这就是我说的意思。我的意思是，你总是在把B同A作对比 ——这引发了成功的想法。因此，我们身为教育者，能否讨论这点或者进行一次真正的、严肃的对话，给他们指出这其中所涉及到的一切。
45:44	WS: I'm worried by when you say point it out to them, because...	温：我有些担忧——当你说给他们指出时，因为
45:47	K: Point it out in the sense I am doing it, I'm pointing it out to myself, I'm not saying point it out to them. In the course of the dialogue I'm aware that I'm also pursuing the goddess.	克：“指出”的意思是我现在就在这么做，我正在给我自己指出，我不是说只给他们指出。而是在对话之中我觉察到我也正在追求成功女神。
46:06	MM: It goes back to what we were saying earlier, which Harsh was suggesting staying with, that the student and the teacher are psychologically at the same level.	马：这回到了我们早些时候说的内容， ——那是哈什建议的“共处”：学生和老师心理上处在同一层次上。
46:17	MM: If we both really realise that, that creates a certain atmosphere.	马：如果我们双方都真的意识到这点，这就会创造出某种氛围。
46:23	K: That creates an intensity. Look, we are both in the same boat. And that gives us a strange sense of responsibility. It's not I row and you sit still. Or you row and I look at the heavens. Can we educate them that way, is that possible?	克：这会创造出一种热情。瞧，我们双方同舟共济。这会赋予我们一种奇特的责任感。不是我划桨，而你只是坐着不动。或者你划桨，而我看着天空。我们能不能用这种方式教育他们，这可能吗？
46:59	WS: We've said pointing out, but we've not really talked about how we actually work on that.	温：我们说到了指出，但是我们还没有真正讨论过我们实际上要怎么做。
47:07	K: Let's have a dialogue about it now.	克：现在就让我们来谈一下。
47:10	WS: We say we worship success but what is it?	温：我们说了我们崇拜成功，但成功到底是什么？
47:13	K: Wait, I am your student, how will you deal with this, with me? How will you all, five of you, who are going to be my educators, teachers, how will you explain, go into this question? Pointing out the consequences, the dangers, how will you show it to me?	克：等一下，我是你的学生，你们会怎么做——对我？你们会怎么——你们五个将会是我的导师、我的老师—— 你们会怎么解释，怎么探究这个问题呢？给我指出种种后果，以及各种危险，你们要怎么向我说明这些呢？
47:35	WS: We'd have to find out first what we mean by success.	温：我们首先必须弄清楚我们所说的“成功”是什么意思。
47:38	K: It's very simple. To be somebody, financially, bigger car, bigger house, to be somebody. Money. If you can't have money, you are somebody with an enormous sense of information, scholarly. Being somebody implies – you know what it implies – you're a doctor, you're a surgeon, you're a prime minister, or just an ordinary clerk, he wants to be somebody.	克：这很简单。成为某个人物 ——在经济上，拥有更宽敞的车，更豪华的房子，成功就是成为某个人物，还有金钱。如果你没钱，那么你就得是个知识渊博的、博学的人。成为某个人物意味着——你们都知道这意味着什么—— 你是名医生，是个外科大夫，你是首相，或者只是个普通员工——他想成为某个人物。
48:21	WS: Can we find out what's behind the wanting to be somebody.	温：我们能不能弄清楚想成为某个人物的背后是什么。
48:27	K: What do you think is behind it? No, you are teaching me, you are helping me to understand, we are in the same boat, don't immediately wander off. We are in the same boat, help me to understand this. What is behind it? Why has man right through the world made this goddess so extraordinarily important?	克：你觉得这背后是什么？不，是你正在教导我，你正在帮助我去了解，我们同坐一条船，不要这么快就走岔了。我们同坐一条船，帮助我去了解这点。这背后的是什么？为什么全世界的人都让这个成功女神变得无比重要呢?
49:11	HT: It seems there is a desire within us.	哈：是因为我们内心存在着欲望。
49:13	K: Look at it, go into it. I'm your student, don't just give words, throw out words. Why has man, right through history, it's not just now, right through.	克：看看它，探究它。我是你的学生，不要只是给些说法、抛出一些说辞。为什么——贯穿整个历史，不仅仅是现在，而是整个历史。
49:29	SS: It seems in some sense to be connected with survival.	史：某种程度上这和生存有关。
49:33	K: That's right, isn't it? Security.	克：没错，不是吗？安全感。
49:36	SS: Because he has survived at the physical level and then as society gets more sophisticated, more developed, he feels that he needs to survive at the psychological level also.	史：因为他在物质层面上生存了下来，然后随着社会变得更复杂、更发达，他感到在心理层面上他也需要生存。
49:51	K: And also each one wants to survive. He is only concerned with his survival. Obviously. So, I want to survive at any price and my survival is laid out as success, money, position, all the rest of it. and you also, in a different way, but both of us desire to survive, individually. Family, the nearer family, and then the nation, and so on, so on. The tribal instinct is very strong in all of us.	克：并且每个人都想要生存。他只关心自己的生存，很显然。因此，为了生存，我会不惜任何代价，而我的生存就会被延伸为成功、金钱、职位，等等这一切。而你也是——以不同的方式而已，但是我们双方都分别想要生存。首先是家庭，然后是附近的家庭，接着是国家的生存，等等等等。部落主义的本能在我们内心是非常强大的。
51:06	WS: It's continually being reinforced by everything that you do, by how you are educated.	温：它不断得到强化 ——被你所做的一切，以及你如何受的教育。
51:12	K: The British, the British, the British. And when you go to France, La France, La France, La France, I mean, what?	克：英国人，英国人，英国人。而当你去法国，就是法国人，法国人，法国人，我的意思是，这到底是什么？
51:20	MM: We also seem to make the assumption, since we need a physical security, and we understand that, we also assume that similarly we need a psychological security. We don't even question that at all.	马：我们似乎也做了个假设，因为我们需要物质上的安全——我们对此都很了解—— 同理，我们假设我们在心理上也需要安全感。我们甚至根本就不去质疑它。
51:31	K: We never question psychological security, which may affect our physical security.	克：我们从不质疑心理上的安全感，而它可能会影响到我们物质上的安全。
51:41	SS: You mean by that, endanger our physical security. K: Yes.	史：你的意思是，会危及我们物质上的安全。克：是的。
51:45	BN: Or someones worries that they don't work so well, they don't do what they need to do.	布：或者有些人担心他们会做不好，所以就索性不去做他们真正需要去做的事。
51:50	K: So can we, being on the same level at the same time, can we convey all this to the students and to ourselves, not verbally, just words, but in depth?	克：因此，我们能不能——在同一时刻，在同一层面上—— 我们能不能把这一切传达给学生和我们自己 ——不是口头上的、只是玩味文字而已，而是深入地传达？
52:16	SS: In discussion therefore. Not just in discussion. Not just in discussion, but in discussion, in action, in games, in everything you're doing. That seems to be implied in what you said there, in a variety of ways.	史：因此在讨论时也一样。不只是在讨论中，不只在讨论中，而是在讨论中，在行动中，在游戏中，在你所做的一切之中。这似乎就是你刚才所说的意思 ——以各种方式。
52:36	K: I'm very keen to find out why I worship this goddess, which has so many facets, so many faces. Why? Is it security? Individual? Then the family and so on, or is there much more to it? There is much more to it, surely, than mere physical survival, as well as psychological survival, there is much more involved in it. Is man nothing but this? The priest wanting to be bishop, bishop wanting to be pope, etc. Is this all? That's what we made life into.	克：我很热切地想要弄清楚为什么我会崇拜成功 ——这有很多小方面，有许多个方面。为什么？是因为安全吗？个人的安全？接着是家庭的安全等等，或者还有更多的东西？无疑还有更多的东西，不仅仅是物质上的生存，也包括心理上的生存 ——其中涉及了更多的东西。除了成功，人是不是就一无所是了？牧师想做主教，主教想做教皇等。是这样吗？我们就是把生活变成了这样。
53:45	SS: Generally, by implication, that is all.	史：一般来讲，成功所隐含的意思就是这样的。
53:49	K: That's just it.	克：就是这么回事。
53:52	HT: So far we've said nothing about a whole range of things: about beauty, about love, about affection.	哈：到目前为止，有很多内容我们还没有说起过：关于美，关于爱，关于慈悲。
53:59	K: I am purposely avoiding it because as long as I am worshipping this extraordinary strange goddess, I can't have the other. Obviously I can't love.	克：我是故意避开这些的，因为只要我还在崇拜这个极其荒诞的成功女神，我就无法拥有另一个。显而易见，我无法去爱。
54:15	HT: If I am only concerned with myself.	哈：如果我只关心自己的话。
54:18	K: Obviously. I can't see beauty if all the time I'm worshipping this goddess.	克：显然如此。如果我一直都崇拜成功，我就无法看到美。
54:35	HT: Still I hang on to this question.	哈：我仍然紧抓着这个问题。
54:37	K: You see, it's right through. The painter wants to be somebody. The musician always, you follow? It's right through. So it's like a tremendous mountain which you have to climb, but it's not. If we see the truth of this it becomes very simple. Yesterday morning we had a discussion with the students only, and we went into this question, they wanted to know whether this hall should be used for this or that. It took fifty five minutes to disentangle them. And I said look, let's find out if you want a room where you can be quiet. They all agreed we must have a room where we can be quiet. They said, why not in the library, I said, somebody is reading. They ultimately came to the point that we must have a room where we can all be quiet, or I want to come here and be quiet, each one of us. They agreed. I said, from that principle, work it out. One began to say, we must have in this room whatever we like, jazz, I said look, don't offer opinions. So we continue with this, don't we? I think we should.	克：你瞧，它无处不在。油漆工想变成某个人物。音乐家也总是这样——你明白吗？它无处不在，因此，它就像一座你不得不攀登的大山一样，但实际上它不是。如果我们看到此中的真相，事情就会变得很简单。昨天早上我们只和学生们进行了一次讨论，我们探讨了这个问题：他们想知道这个大厅是不是应该用来做这个或者做那个。大概花了55分钟的时间去解决这个问题。我说，“瞧，让我们弄清楚你们是不是需要一间屋子，在那里你们可以变得很安静。” 他们全都同意，我们必须有个可以让我们安静的房间。他们问，为什么不在图书馆，我回答，因为有人在那里看书。他们最终达成了一致——我们必须要有一间可以让我们安静的房间，或者我可以过来安静一下的房间——我们每个人都可以。他们全都同意。我说，从这个原则出发，事情就解决了。有人就开始说，这间屋子必须得有我们所喜欢的东西——爵士乐，我说，瞧，不要出别的主意了。因此我们要继续讨论这个，不是吗？我认为我们应该如此。