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BR79DT2.3 - 倾听的艺术
与教师们的第三次探讨
英国,布洛克伍德公园
1979年6月23日



0:43 Stephen Smith: I was wondering if we could consider perhaps the time span in which a student is in a school like Brockwood, say a time span of about four years, beginning at fourteen and perhaps leaving at eighteen, and how this relates to what we were saying the other day about wanting success and some form of achievement related to psychological security, and what the interrelationship is. 史蒂芬·史密斯:我不知道我们是不是可以思考一下 这个时间段——学生 待在学校里的时间,就像在布洛克伍德那样, 比如说大概四年之久, 学生在14岁入学,大概在18岁离校, 而这和我们几天前的话题有什么样的关联 ——关于想取得成功和某种成就 和心理上的安全感有关, 并且,相互的关系是怎样的。
1:24 Krishnamurti: Are you saying what is the relationship between the student and the educator when they both realise, or the educator points it out to the student that they both are conditioned, conditioned being according to their ecological, cultural, economic, racial, and all that kind of conditioning, what is the relationship between the student and the educator when they both realise that they are conditioned? Is that what you're saying? 克里希那穆提:你的意思是不是 学生和老师的关系是怎样的 ——当他们双方都意识到 或者教育者给学生指明: 他们双方都是深受局限的, 受限于他们的生态环境、文化、 经济、种族以及各种制约, 学生和教育者之间的关系会是什么样的 ——当他们双方都意识到他们深受局限的时候? 这是不是就是你的意思呢?
2:05 SS: That's the question. 史:就是这个问题。
2:08 K: What is the relationship when you and I, I the student, you the teacher, realise that we are both conditioned, and we have a short period, a period of four or five years... 克:我们的关系是怎样的,当你和我 ——我是学生,你是老师的话—— 意识到我们两个人都深受局限, 并且我们会有短暂的相处——四到五年的时间
2:25 SS: ..in which to work it out. 史:……在这段时间里去弄清楚这个问题。
2:37 Harsh Tanka: Is this something that we work out over a period of time, bit by bit? 哈什·坦卡:这是不是需要我们 花费一段时期,一点点去弄清楚的事呢?
2:42 K: I doubt it. I question whether time has any importance in this investigation. 克:我对此有所怀疑, 我质疑时间有没有任何重要性 ——在这样的探究之中。
2:52 SS: We better say what we mean about time then, because it's obvious that the student is here for a span of time. 史:那我们最好说一下我们所说的“时间”是什么意思, 因为很显然——学生是要在这儿待上一段时间的。
2:59 K: A span of time being from fourteen to eighteen. Four years, or five years. Or if you have a longer period, from fourteen to twenty and so on. I would like to question, or ask, what is the relationship between the educator and the person to be educated – 'educated' – what is the relationship between the two? Not theoretical but actual. What is your relationship as a teacher to the student, with a student, when you and he realise that both are conditioned? What is the quality of relationship? And then we can discuss whether time is necessary, a longer time or a shorter time and so on. I think that is an important thing to find out. What is one's relationship when two people realise that they are conditioned, may be conditioned culturally differently, but essentially, deeply conditioned. 克:从14岁到18岁这样一段时间。 四年,或者五年, 或者,如果你有更多时间的话, 那么就从14岁待到20岁等等。 我有些疑问,或者我想问, 他们的关系是怎样的 ——教育者以及被教育者之间 ——“被教育”—— 这两者之间的关系是怎样的? ——不是理论上的关系,而是实际的关系。 你们之间会有什么样的关系——作为老师, 你和学生之间会有什么样的关系 ——在你和他都意识到你们两个都深受局限之后? 你们关系的品质如何? 这之后我们才能讨论是不是需要时间 ——要久一点还是短一点等等。 我觉得这是件很重要的事,需要我们去弄清楚。 我们会有什么样的关系 ——在我们两个人都意识到彼此深受局限之后, 也许我们受限于不同的文化, 但是,从本质上来讲,我们都深受局限。
4:40 HT: These people are also interested in living a life that's whole. 哈:这些人也对过一种完整的生活很有兴趣。
4:45 K: They say, is it possible... No, before I say is it possible, I want to find out what is the relationship between you and me when we both realise that we are conditioned. 克:他们问,这有没有可能……不,在我说这有可能之前, 我想弄清楚你和我之间会有什么样的关系 ——在我们彼此都意识到我们都深受局限之后。
5:08 Wendy Smith: I'm not sure I quite understand the question, when you say what is the relationship? 温迪·史密斯:我确实不是很明白这个问题 ——当你问到我们会有什么样的关系?
5:13 K: Yes. Before, our relationship was, a teacher talking down to the student, informing him, not about himself, about the subject which he is teaching. But here we are asking, apart from that, because we are concerned with the total development of a human being. That's what we began with. And we asked, what is the relationship when two people realise that they are conditioned, realise, not verbally but actually? And this conditioning keeps people apart. You understand my question? 克:是的。以往,我们之间的关系就是 老师用居高临下的口气和学生说话, 教他——不是教他认识自己, 而是教学生他上的科目。 但是,在这里,我们问的是,除了这样的关系外 ——因为我们关心的是一个人整体的发展, 这是我们一开就说的—— 我们刚才问,我们还会有什么样的关系 ——在两个人都意识到彼此都深受局限之后, ——不是口头上的,而是实际上意识到了? 而这样的局限离间了人们。 你们都了解我的问题吗?
6:07 WS: Yes, if I'm conditioned as the teacher then I can't actually help. 温:是的,如果我局限于老师的身份,那么实际上我就无能为力了。
6:11 K: Not as a teacher, but as a human being you are conditioned. And so is another human being, what is the relationship between you two? 克:不是老师的身份,而是一个深受局限的人。 而另一个人也是这样深受局限的, 那么,你们两个人之间会是什么样的关系呢?
6:24 WS: We are both the same, surely. 温:无疑,我们两个没什么不同。
6:26 K: Yes, but I said, when you realise. 克:是的,但是我说过了——在你们都意识到这点之后。
6:33 HT: From that point onwards you can begin to work together. 哈:由此之后,你们就可以一起共事了。
6:37 K: Yes, not only work together, but before we work together what takes place, emotionally, intellectually, etc., when you and I realise that we are both conditioned? 克:是的,不只是一起共事而已。但是,在我们一起共事之前 会发生什么——情感上、理性上,等等 ——当你和我都意识到我们都深受局限后?
6:51 HT: First I lose my fear of you. 哈:首先我不会再害怕你。
6:53 K: Yes, but go a little deeper. What takes place between us? 克:是的,但是再深入一点, 我们之间会发生什么呢?
7:07 Mathew Mitchell: It seems our images of each other are somewhat broken down. 马修·米切尔:似乎我们对彼此抱有的意象 多少有些瓦解了。
7:15 K: We don't react as we did before. Would that be right? 克:我们不会按以前的方式做出反应了。 是这样吗?
7:24 Brian Nicholson: You really start listening to the other person. 布莱恩·尼科尔森:你开始真正地倾听对方了。
7:27 K: We are beginning to listen to each other. 克:我们开始倾听彼此。
7:34 WS: Is that because I don't feel superior to you? 温:这是不是因为我不再觉得优越于你呢?
7:36 K: No, we both are in the same boat. We both are conditioned. You realise – realise, not just verbally understood what the conditioning intellectually means – but actually realise that you are conditioned, and another also realises equally, then what takes place? Our reactions don't carry us away. 克:没错,因为现在我们同坐一条船。 我们都深受局限, 你意识到了, 意识到——不只是口头上了解了 “局限”这个词字面上的意思, 也从实际上意识到了你深受局限的事实, 而对方也同样意识到了,然后会怎样? 我们就不会让自己的各种反应冲昏头脑了。
8:08 SS: In that particular relationship that is so, but the difficulty arises when one realises he is conditioned and the other doesn't. 史:在这种特定的关系之中我们可以做到这样, 但是困难出现在——一方意识到自己深受局限, 而另一方却没有。
8:18 K: But we are helping the student and ourselves to realise that we are conditioned. Let us put it that way. Part of our conditioning is to react instantly. 克:但我们正在帮助学生和我们自己 去意识到我们深受局限的事实 ——就让我们拿这个来说吧。 我们所受的局限之一就是即刻有所反应。
8:36 SS: To whatever happens. 史:对发生的任何事。
8:39 K: To your words, to your gesture, to your language. Our conditioning is part of our self-centredness. And when you and I realise we are so terribly self-centred, then what takes place? It's obvious. No? 克:对你所说的话、你的姿态、你用的语言即刻有所反应。 我们所受的局限就是我们自我中心的一部分。 而如果你和我都意识到我们都极其自我中心的话, 那么,会怎样?这是显而易见的。 不是吗?
9:09 SS: I'm not sure it is so obvious. Are you suggesting that there is nothing left to achieve? 史:我不敢肯定这是显而易见的。 你是在暗示根本没有什么可以成就的吗?
9:22 K: Look, you and I have to live in the same house. And you and I realise that we are self-centred. That's our deep abiding conditioning. You are self-centred and so am I, and we both realise it. And we both have to live in the same room, same house. What takes place? What's the difficulty? 克:瞧,你和我必须生活在一个屋檐下。 而你我也都清楚我们都很自我中心。 这是我们长期而又深刻的局限, 你很自我中心,而我也是,并且我们两个都意识到了这点。 但我们两个又不得不生活在一间房间、一个屋子下里, 我们会怎样呢? 困难是什么呢?
9:50 BN: We have to be very careful because this hardly ever actually happens. 布:我们必须很谨慎,因为这几乎从没真正发生过。
9:54 K: No, that's what I am going to establish with the student. I want him to realise, I want to help him to realise that he is conditioned. And in explaining what conditioning is I realise also I am conditioned. Obviously. Unless I am dull, anything, I realise the same thing. So we are both together in this. He is conditioned and his activities are self-centred, so is that of another. So what takes place in this actual realisation of two people? 克:不,这正是我打算要和学生建立的东西。 我想让他意识到, 我想帮他意识到他是深受局限的。 在我解释什么是“局限”的过程中, 我也同样意识到自己是深受局限的——这是显而易见的。 除非我很迟钝麻木,否则,我就会意识到同样的事。 因此我们两个都意识到了这点。 他深受局限,他的活动都是自我中心的, 而对方也是如此。 因此,在这份双方都很真实的认识之中,会发生什么呢?
10:48 HT: What happens then is the relationship is no longer from the conditioning. 哈:那么,就会 有不再受局限的关系。
10:54 K: No, it is conditioned. Go on, sir, investigate. It is a problem which has to be resolved. 克:不,现在的关系是受限的。 继续探究下去,先生。 这是个必须解决的问题。
11:06 SS: But surely it's the communication which is now the important thing. 史:但是,无疑,交流是现在最重要的事。
11:11 K: Yes, communication. Now how do I communicate to you and how do you communicate to me from our self-centred point of view? 克:是的,交流。 现在我要怎么和你交流,而你又要怎么和我交流 ——从我们自我中心的角度出发,怎么交流?
11:23 SS: Is there any communication from that point of view? 史:从这样的角度出发,还会有交流吗?
11:25 K: There isn't any! There is superficial communication. So what takes place? If you realise and I realise, what takes place? 克:根本没有! 只有很肤浅的交流。 因此会发生什么? 如果你意识到,我也意识到了,那么会发生什么?
11:53 SS: We create the possibility of illuminating this self-centredness. 史:我们可能会照亮这个自我中心。
11:58 K: That means what, what is our relationship? 克:那是什么意思,我们的关系会怎样?
12:05 SS: One of equality, we've said that. 史:一种平等的关系——我们说到过的。
12:07 K: No, what's our relationship actually? 克:不,实际上我们之间的关系会怎样?
12:14 WS: We both want to understand and discover together then. 温:我们那时就愿意一起去了解和发现。
12:18 K: No, a little more than that, go into it. 克:不,不只是这样,深入下去。
12:22 HT: Then we can deal with each other with affection. 哈:那么,我们就会很慈爱地对待对方。
12:25 K: Look at it, you are conditioned, I am conditioned. And we establish a relationship of mutual conditioning. 克:瞧,你深受局限,而我也是。 所以我们建立了一种互相都受局限的关系。
12:34 HT: We both know we are conditioned. 哈:我们双方都知道我们深受局限。
12:36 K: So what is that relationship, what has taken place in that relationship? 克:因此,我们的关系会怎样, 这样的关系之中会发生什么?
12:44 HT: Well, we've seen something together. 哈:哦,我们一起看到了些东西。
12:47 K: That is, we are removing the barriers between you and me. We are removing the division, this self-centredness. You are helping me, and I'm helping you – not helping – we are watching each other in order not to be self-centred. That's part of our conditioning. So can the educator convey this to the student and feel the responsibility of this exchange? 克:也就是,我们去掉了横亘在你我之间的障碍。 我们消除了分裂,消除了这个自我中心。 你在帮助我,而我也在帮助你, ——不是帮助——而是我们照看着彼此, 这样我们彼此就不再自我中心了。 这是我们所受局限的一部分。 因此教育者能不能把这个传达给学生, 并且对这种交流感到有责任呢?
13:27 WS: But if we said the two are equal, why is it the educator conveying to the student? 温:但是我们说了如果这两者是平等的, 那么为什么只是教育者传达给学生呢?
13:36 K: No, the student is not as clear as you are. 克:不,因为学生不像你那么清晰。
13:41 WS: But doesn't that mean... 温:但是,这难道不意味着
13:43 K: No, clarity. I see more clearly than you do, which doesn't mean I am superior or inferior. You have more knowledge about mathematics than I have. But if mathematics is used to gain a status, then there is a difference between you and me. No? 克:不,是清晰。我看得要比你更清晰些, 这并不意味着我高于你或者次于你。 你知道的数学知识比我多, 但是,如果你利用数学取得了某种地位, 那么,你和我之间就有了差别。 不是吗?
14:12 SS: I think that is true in that field and it's quite clear, but the conditioning may also suggest to me that the suggestion of being conditioned is a similar factor to being a mathematics teacher. 史:我觉得在那个领域这是事实,也相当清楚, 但是,局限也许也启发了我 ——它暗示着身受局限 跟身为数学老师是类似的因素。
14:27 K: Let’s forget for the moment conditioning. What is the relationship between the teacher and the student? What is the relationship, actual relationship, apart from teaching a particular subject? Have you any relationship with your students? 克:让我们暂时忘掉局限。 老师和学生之间的关系是怎样的? 关系是怎样的,实际上的关系, ——除了教授一门特定的学科以外? 你和学生之间有任何关系吗?
14:59 SS: Some of them. 史:和一些学生有。
15:01 K: What, apart from the subject? Now, what is that relationship when you realise the fact that you and he are both conditioned, both self-centred – forgive me if I use the word 'you', it is not personal – what is the relationship there? 克:是什么——除了学科以外? 现在,你们之间是什么样的关系——在你意识到 你和他都深受局限、都很自我中心的的事实后 ——请原谅我使用了“你”这个词,这并不是针对个人而言—— 其中有什么样的关系?
15:26 MM: Part of it is that we're able to work as mirrors for each other. The student is talking to me and I'm able to... 马:一部分的关系就是我们能做彼此的镜子。 学生找我说话我可以
15:35 K: Are you doing that now? One has realised that you and I are both self-centred, and do we see our conditioning in our relationship? 克:你现在在这么做吗? 我们意识到了你和我都是自我中心的, 那么,我们有没有在我们的关系中看到彼此的局限呢?
16:04 SS: Taking place in the relationship.

K: Yes. And it's only through the understanding of this conditioning in relationship there is the possibility of real communication. Communication can only exist when there is no division, when you can both share something together.
史:在我们的关系之中显现。

克:是的。 而只有通过我们的关系去了解 我们所受的局限, 我们才有可能发生真正的交流。 交流只存在于没有分裂的时候, 在你们双方共同分享的时候。
16:33 WS: It seems as though we see this sometimes but now always. 温:我们有时候可以看到,但也不总是能看到。
16:38 K: No, the question of 'sometimes' and 'not always' is for the moment, if I may point out, irrelevant. But what is relevant is, what takes place in this relationship with the student and with the teacher when they both realise they are in the same self-centred area, field? You are not answering my question. Probably you haven't thought about this. This is what's happening at Brockwood. So, what then is the relationship between you and the student here? 克:不,“有时候”和“不总是”的问题暂且是 ——如果我可以指出的话——无关紧要的。 但是,重要的是, 发生了什么—— 在学生和老师的这种关系之中 ——在他们双方都意识到他们都处在同样的自我中心的领域和范畴时? 你并没有回答我的问题。 也许是你还没有想过这些。 这就是布洛克伍德的现状。 因此,在这里,你和学生的关系接着会是什么样的?
17:32 SS: One level of it is like this, I can see that such and such a person, is conditioned in such a way because of his cultural background, what, Indian. He is conditioned in a certain way, and another is conditioned. I can see the elements of that, and what has brought about that picture. He may have been educated in a special way but nevertheless when he arrives the whole culture is there, wherever he has been, the whole culture is there with him. So I can see that. 史:在某个层次上是这样的, 我可以看到某某人 局限于这样的方式之中,是由于他的文化背景 ——比如,印度的文化。 他受限于某种方式之中,对方也是。 我看到了这其中的要素, 以及看到了是什么导致了这样的情况。 他也许以一种特定的方式受了教育,然而 当他来这里时,整个文化也随他来了, 无论他去到哪里,整个文化都和他如影随形。 因此我看到了这点。
18:14 K: Now wait a minute. When you see the conditioning in him, how that conditioning has been brought about, do you see at the same time how that very same conditioning exists in you? 克:现在请稍等一下。 当你看到他的局限, 以及这种局限是怎么产生的, 那么,你是不是也同时看到了 这种同样的局限也是如何存在于你身上的呢?
18:28 SS: Well, I see another form of conditioning. 史:哦,我看到了另一形式的局限。
18:34 K: But it is still conditioning. That's all my point. 克:但它还是局限, 这就是我的看法。
18:39 SS: But it works out that seemingly these conditionings have affinities. For instance, although we are an international school here, it's very frequent to find that the Americans go to the Americans, the English to the English, the Germans to the Germans, the Indonesians go to the Indonesians. So this similarity draws them together. In that sense their conditionings are not equal. At least they have the same colour. 史:但是可以看到 这些局限似乎有亲近性。 比如,尽管我们这里是一所国际性的学校, 但是非常常见的是——美国学生和美国学生在一起, 英国学生和英国学生在一起,德国学生和德国学生在一起, 印度尼西亚学生就和印度尼西亚学生聚在一起。 因此,这种相似的局限使他们彼此走近, 从这个意义上来说,他们所受的局限是不相同的, 最起码他们有着一样的肤色。
19:16 K: We said conditioning is not merely the superficial manners, colour, but we went much deeper into conditioning, which is self-centredness, the desire for success. 克:我们说过局限不仅仅 是很表面的举止礼仪、肤色, 也包括——我们很深入地探究过局限—— 自我中心,以及渴望成功。
19:33 SS: And the tribal. 史:以及部落主义。
19:35 K: We went into that. So, we haven't tackled this problem. 克:我们探究过这个。 因此,我们还没有解决这个问题。
19:42 BN: When you talk to someone about conditioning, it doesn't seem to be their conditioning or your conditioning, you can look at theirs or yours at the same time and you see exactly the same thing in both people. 布:当你和人谈论局限时, 就好像这不是他们的局限或者你的局限一样, 你可以看着他们的或者你的局限 你确实看到了双方都同样深受局限。
19:54 K: That's right. Then when you both see the same thing in each, then what is our relationship? Our relationship has undergone a great change. 克:没错。 那么,在你们两个都看到了彼此身上一样的问题后, 你们的关系会是怎样的? 我们之间的关系就已经历了一次巨大的转变。
20:15 SS: I am stuck on this point of actually seeing the conditioning as being the same. I can see it as being equal. 史:我还是不太明白这点——真正看到 双方都一样深受局限这点。 我能看到的是双方所受的局限是同等的。
20:25 K: Yes, it is equal, all right. 克:是的,是同等的,没错。
20:28 SS: But as being identical is... 史:但是,如果是相同的就
20:30 K: Wait, sir. The Indian from India, the American, the Russian, the Englishman or French, the western, eastern and far west, the common factor is they all want success. Right? Obviously. Now, the goddess of success has many, many faces. But the central factor is success. 克:等一下,先生。 来自印度的印度人,以及美国人、俄国人、 英国人或者法国人, 西方人、东方人,以及远西地区的人 ——他们的共性因素是都想取得成功。 对吗?这是显而易见的。 成功女神有很多很多面目, 但是核心因素就是成功。
21:09 SS: Self-continuance, or self-perpetuity. 史:自我延续,或者自我永生。
21:14 K: Yes, I mean you might seek success as a lawyer, another might seek success at being a carpenter, or a politician, or whatever it is. 克:是的,我的意思是你要的成功也许是成为一名律师, 而别人要的成功或许是成为一个木匠, 或者政客,又或是别的什么。
21:24 SS: How do we distinguish that from interest? 史:我们要怎么把这个和兴趣爱好区别开来呢?
21:29 K: Interest? 克:兴趣爱好?
21:31 SS: Yes, because that's also one of our objectives in a school like this is to help the student find an interest which will sustain him through life. 史:是的,因为这也是我们这所学校的教学目标之一 ——去帮助学生发现一种 可以支撑他一生的兴趣爱好。
21:45 K: Is that the central factor of life, interest? He might say, I'm really interested in wanting to be a surgeon, that's what I want to devote my life to. Is that interest the central factor of life? Or is it something much greater than interest? 克:这是不是生活的的核心因素——兴趣爱好? 他也许会说,我真的很有兴趣成为一名外科医生, 这是我想为之奋斗一生的志趣。 这种志趣是不是生命的核心因素呢? 还是核心因素是比志趣更为重大的事呢?
22:18 SS: I would suggest that the real interest is... 史:我会建议真正的兴趣是
22:24 K: I'm not suggesting anything. 克:我不建议任何事。
22:29 SS: It seems necessary to have this interest also. 史:但是,拥有这样的兴趣爱好似乎也是必要的。
22:34 K: Interest may be awakened by the social demand. Society says, you must be an engineer because you get more money. 克:兴趣爱好也许是社会需求唤醒的。 社会说,你一定要成为个工程师 因为这样你就可以赚更多的钱。
22:47 SS: But there may be a talent there also. 史:但也许你也有这种天分。
22:49 K: Oh yes, talent. But we are talking of interest. I say, is that the central factor of life, interest? Or ambition, to achieve something? I think interest is rather... It can vary, diminish, sometimes enormous interest, but it's rather feeble. 克:噢,是的,天分。但我们说的是兴趣爱好。 我问,兴趣,是不是就是生活的核心要素? 或者是抱负——去达成什么? 我觉得兴趣相当……兴趣可以变化、减弱, 有时是浓厚的兴趣,但是非常脆弱。
23:28 SS: It is partial certainly. 史:无疑,兴趣是很狭隘的。
23:30 K: Yes. So we're trying to get at, aren't we, what is the common factor between two people who realise that they are caught in the same trap? I want to move away from conditioning. 克:是的,因此我们想弄清楚,不是吗, 共性因素是什么——对两个 认识到他们都陷在同样的陷阱之中的人来说? 我想从局限之中解脱出来。
23:54 SS: They can either accept... 史:他们要么接受
23:57 K: If they realise they are in a trap they help each other to break the trap. 克:如果他们都意识到他们落入了陷阱之中, 那么他们就会帮助彼此去打破这个陷阱。
24:03 SS: But seeing the contour of the trap, to see the contour of the trap, to see the nature of the trap is... 史:但是看到了陷阱的轮廓, 看到陷阱的轮廓,看到陷阱的本质是
24:12 K: No, but if you realise you are in a trap, and that causes a great deal of pain both physically and psychologically, and another realises, and you two have to live in the same house, what takes place? We are helping each other to break down the trap. And the intensity of that trap, and the pain of it, is making us very active. 克:不,但是如果你意识到你身处陷阱, 而这引起了很大的痛苦 ——身体上和心理上都很痛苦, 而对方也意识到了, 而你们两个不得不住在一个屋檐下,那么会发生什么呢? 我们就会互相帮助去打破这个陷阱。 而这个陷阱所带来的紧张 和痛苦,会让我们变得很活跃。
24:50 SS: Outwardly, you mean.

K: Inwardly also.
史:你是指外部。

克:内在也一样。
24:56 SS: Would you say this is responsible for the agitation of thought, generally? 史:你认为这得 为思想的焦躁不安负责吗——一般来讲?
25:03 K: Probably. So one's relationship with another is when one realises the activity of relationship in which each one is helping the other to break down the trap, to undo the trap. 克:可能是的。 因此,我们和对方的关系就是 ——一方意识到关系的活动 就是去帮助对方打破这个陷阱、 消除这个陷阱。
25:27 WS: So part of that relationship is trusting another person and not feeling afraid of them. 温:因此关系的一部分就是信任对方 而不是害怕对方。
25:32 K: Now, which means what? How will you trust another if one is afraid? How can I trust you if I'm afraid of you? If you are competing with me for the same job, or for the same whatever it is, how can I trust you? I can only trust when there is mutual responsibility about a certain thing. 克:那么,这意味着什么? 你要如何信任对方——如果你很害怕对方的话? 如果我很害怕你我要怎么信任你呢? 如果你在和我竞争同一份工作, 或者同一个别的什么的时候,我要怎么信任你呢? 我的信任只存在于你我之间有共同的责任时 ——在某件事上有共同的责任。
26:07 WS: But we both have to see that. 温:但是我们两个都必须看到这点。
26:09 K: That's what I'm saying. Do we at Brockwood – it comes down to that – help the student to see that he is conditioned, and the teacher is also conditioned, not climatically, dark brown or black or more pale, but also psychologically in the sense we are both conditioned to act from a self-centred interest. If we both see it, there is a definite change in our relationship, in the relationship between these two people. I think that's very important in a school of this kind. 克:这就是我在说的意思。 我们有没有在布洛克伍德——可以归结为—— 去帮助学生看到他是深受局限的, 以及老师也是深受局限的, 不是指气候上,不是指深褐色、黑色或更苍白的肤色这样的局限, 而是指心理上的局限 ——我们都局限在了从自我中心的利益出发去行动。 如果我们都看到了这点, 那么我们的关系一定会有一种转变, ——在这两个人之间的关系中。 我觉得在像这样的学校里,这真是非常重要。
27:10 WS: I still wonder what happens if we don't both see it? 温:我还是想知道要是我们没有都看到这点,那会怎样呢?
27:14 K: Therefore it's my responsibility. If you see it it's your responsibility to help me to see it. 克:那么,这就是我的责任。 如果你看到了,那么帮助我看到就是你的责任。
27:21 SS: You're saying this will become the dissolving agent which will do away with the particular conditioning? For instance, an English mentality will tend to be puritanical in some respect, either puritanical or in rebellion against that, so it has that kind of trap, kind of seized-up emotionally. Or a Jewish mentality which could be legalistic, for instance, and see things in those terms. And this come through in the students, the conditioning shows itself, these different aspects of the mentality. So, we're suggesting now that if we meet at this common and deeper level then that will throw light on the particular conditioning rather than starting from the other way round. 史:你的意思是这会成为溶解剂一样, 能去除掉特定的局限吗? 比如,一个英国人的头脑往往会很古板 ——在某些方面, 要么对此极端严格,要么对此完全反对, 因此,他的头脑就会存在这种陷阱,情绪上容易出故障。 或者一个犹太人的头脑可能是很墨守成规的 ——举个例子——他依据各种条款来看事物。 而这体现在学生身上, 局限显露了出来 ——头脑的这些不同侧面。 因此,我们现在的建议是 如果我们能在这个共有的、深层的层次上达成共识, 那么,这会让我们看清楚这种特定的局限, 而不是从反过来着手。
28:11 K: Through the particular, find out the whole. 克:通过特定的局限,来弄清楚整体。
28:13 SS: Right. We're suggesting, or you're suggesting that that's not the best way to proceed but rather the other way round. Is it helpful then to point out to a student the particular conditioning? 史:是的,我们是这么建议的, 或者你会建议这不是最可行的方法 而是反过来着手。 那么这会不会有帮助——去给学生指出 特定的局限呢?
28:37 K: No, I'm not sure whether a collection of details, a collection of particulars is going to help to perceive the whole conditioning, or to understand the nature of conditioning, the structure of conditioning: the climatic, the food, the religion, the prejudices, the family, the whole cultural and environmental conditioning. That's why personally I would look at the principle of it rather than the details of it. 克:不,我不确定一些细节, 一些具体的细节是不是 有助于洞察整个的局限, 或者有助于去了解局限的本质、 局限的架构: 天气、食物、宗教、偏见、 家庭、整个文化和环境的局限这些细节。 这就是为什么我个人会去看它的本质, 而不是看它的具体细节。
29:20 MM: But in fact, that's how we attempt to do things here, trying with the particulars first. And often times it makes the person more conditioned and more enclosed. 马:但事实上,这就是我们打算要在这里做的 ——首先从具体细节开始。 这常常会让人更加地深受限制和束手束脚。
29:29 K: Yes. That's why, when discussing the other day, whether they want a room where they could be quiet, silent, they began to discuss in details. I said please, if you don't mind, first find out if you want a room like that, a quiet room. If you do, that's the principle from which you can work it out. In the same way, can we work this out? That we are, as human beings, wherever we live, we are conditioned, by the society, culture, religion of that particular country or group or community. And part of that conditioning is ambition, which expresses itself in the desire for success. Success implies security. And so each one is seeking his own personal security. That's what is taking place in the world. Or there is the totalitarian concept, the state must be the great success, of which we control. You know, the whole business of that. So can we help the student to understand the nature of this conditioning as success. I am only taking that as an example. 克:是的。这就是为什么,在几天前讨论 他们是不是需要一间能让他们安静和沉默的房间, 他们开始讨论细节时, 我就说,“恳请你们,如果你们不介意, 那么首先要弄清楚你们到底需不需要这样一间静室, 如果需要的话,那么,这就是你们能够解决它的前提。” 同样地,我们能不能解决这里的问题呢? 身为人类的我们,无论身处何方, 我们都局限于社会、文化 以及特定国家、团体或者社区的宗教信仰。 而这种局限的一部分就是野心 ——这种野心表现为对成功的渴望。 成功意味着安全。 因此我们每个人都在寻求自己个人的安全。 这就是世界上发生的事。 或者还有极权主义的概念 ——国家一定要是最成功的, 要为我们所控制。 你们都知道这整把戏。 因此,我们能不能帮助学生去了解 局限的本质就是渴望成功 ——我只是拿成功举个例子。
31:21 HT: You are taking that as an example because we are interested not just in that particular conditioning, but we want to see what the whole nature of conditioning is. 哈:你拿它举例子 因为我们感兴趣的不仅仅是特定的局限, 我们还想看看局限的整个本质是什么。
31:32 K: That's right. By looking at one particular conditioning we may discover the whole nature of conditioning. 克:没错。通过看某个特定的局限, 我们就可以发现局限的整个本质。
31:42 SS: One particular conditioning being? 史:某种特定的局限是?
31:44 K: Success, say for instance. Or take anything. We'll take success because that is what most human beings want. When you succeed you have money, position, status, freedom – at least ‘freedom’ in quotes – you are respected. So, why has success become so important in man's life? We said in our previous dialogues, security. Right? It does give security. If I am a first class fiddler, violinist, I'm a tremendous success. If I am mediocre or not so good I become just part of the orchestra. Even in the orchestra there is competition, the left hand man is a more important violinist, than the other fellow. So success is part of our life. 克:成功——比如说。 或者举任何例子都可以。 我们举成功的例子是因为这是大多数人所渴望的。 当你成功时,你就会有金钱、地位, 就会有身份、自由 ——“自由”是要加引号的——你会受人尊敬。 因此,为什么成功在人的生活中变得如此重要? 在之前的谈话中我们说过了,因为安全感。 对吗? 成功会让人有安全感。 如果我是个一流的小提琴手,小提琴演奏家, 那么,我就取得了巨大的成功。 如果我很平庸或者不是那么优秀的话, 就只会沦为管弦乐队的一员。 即使是在管弦乐队里也存在着竞争, 左边的人是更为重要一点的小提琴手 ——比其他的成员要重要些。 因此,成功是我们生活的一部分。
33:02 HT: Does success really bring security, or is it just that we have the idea that it will bring security? 哈:成功是不是真的可以带来安全, 还是只是我们持有这样的观念——成功会带给我们安全呢?
33:08 K: It does in certain ways. Look at all the politicians, they struggle, they campaign, they make all kinds of silly remarks, all this goes on because they want to be a success, as Prime Minister, or member of Parliament, etc. 克:在某些方面成功确实会带来安全。 看看所有的政客, 他们勾心斗角,他们参加竞选, 他们做各种愚蠢的讲话, 这一切都发生着,因为他们想要 成为首相或者国会成员,等等。
33:28 HT: But even if you get to the top of whatever you are striving for, it's still shaky, you may fall down any time. 哈:但是即使你达到了你为之奋斗的最高点, 一切都还是摇摇欲坠的,你随时会倒下。
33:35 K: The more you strive for success, and the higher you get, nearer to God – in one direction, the popes, the bishops, the archbishops, and the whole hierarchical structure of religious people, and on the other side the politicians and the businessman – in every direction it is there! What is wrong with success? 克:我越努力取得成功, 我的成就越高,也就会越接近上帝 ——在某一领域里, 教皇、主教、大主教, 这整个的宗教人士的等级架构, 另一方面政客和商人们 ——在各个领域里都是如此! 成功到底有什么问题?
34:09 HT: That's what I was trying to say, it doesn't bring you real security. It may bring you physical security, or you may feel wanted, or above everyone, or something like that, but... 哈:这正是我想说的, 成功不会带来真正的安全。 也许它会带来物质上的安全,或者你也许感到被需要, 又或者高人一等,或者这种类似的事,但是
34:27 K: There is tremendous pleasure in being successful. 克:成功之中存在着巨大的快乐。
34:34 WS: There's also the fear that success won't last. 温:其中也存在着对不能继续成功的恐惧。
34:37 K: It's a tremendous thing to feel, I have succeeded. And you thrive on that. 克:感受到成功是件很美妙的事——我成功了。 然后你依靠它生活。
34:44 SS: You fulfil your ambitions.

K: That's just it. And you're doing the same, we're all doing the same.
史:你实现了你的野心。

克:就是这样的。 你在做同样的事,我们都在做同样的事。
34:52 SS: So we're fulfilling ourselves through some particular role. 史:因此,我们都在借助某个特定的角色来成就我们自己。
34:56 K: And therefore opposed to each other. 克:并因此互相敌对。
35:02 SS: Do we see that? 史:我们看到这点了吗?
35:04 K: If you and I are trying to fulfil our ambitions through that particular channel, you are better than me, I begin to be jealous of you, I begin to be nasty about you. There is division, obviously, conflict between us. 克:如果你和我都想要实现自己的野心 ——借助某个特定的渠道, 你比我更优秀,我就会开始嫉妒你, 开始故意刁难你。 很显然,在我们之间就有了分裂和冲突。
35:28 SS: One might though put that down to market factors. For instance, the government used to want a lot of teachers at one time, so anybody who trained could be a teacher, so they weren't so much in competition with one another. But nowadays there are not many jobs. 史:我们也许会把这归因于市场因素。比方说, 政府曾经有段时间需要大量的教师, 所以只要有人受了培训就可以做老师, 因而他们就不需要和别人有什么竞争。 但是如今工作机会没那么多了。
35:53 K: Because of overpopulation, all the rest of it. 克:因为人口过剩,等等。
35:57 SS: So we're saying that's a market factor, you see. 史:因此我们说那是因为市场的因素,你瞧。
36:02 K: I understand all that, but we're trying to find out whether that conditioning, which in certain ways is so destructive in our human relationship, we agree to that? If you and I are married, or husband and wife, and I am ambitious in one way, you are ambitious in another, there is no relationship between us. This is so obvious, isn't it? HT: Yes. 克:这些我都了解, 但我们现在是想弄清楚这种局限是不是 ——这种局限在某些方面非常具破坏性 ——在我们人类关系的方面, 对此我们都同意吗? 如果你和我结婚了,或者是丈夫和妻子, 我在某个方面野心勃勃,而你在别的方面野心勃勃, 那么,我们之间就没有关系。 这是很显然的,不是吗?哈:是的。
36:41 SS: Even if one is ambitious at all. 史:即使只有一方野心勃勃。
36:44 K: That's just the point. 克:这就是问题的关键。
36:46 HT: People are willing to put their relationships second to success. 哈:人们都甘愿把他们的关系放在成功的后面。
36:49 K: That's it. That means, self-centred activity is more important than relationship. 克:就是这样的。这意味着, 自我中心的活动要远比关系来得重要。
37:05 WS: The whole point about success is that it seems to be at the expense of other people. 温:成功的整个含义 似乎就是去牺牲别人。
37:10 K: Of course, naturally. So can we, as educators, convey all this to the student, not verbally, but actually make him realise this thing. How dangerous it is. 克:当然,这是自然而然的。 因此身为教育者的我们能不能给学生指出这一切 ——不是口头上,而是真正让他意识到这件事, 意识到这有多危险。
37:26 HT: That this is the nature of success, that this is what it will lead to. 哈:这是成功的本性 ——成功会导致这一切。
37:31 K: Division, no relationship. If there is a relationship, a perpetual wrangle, you don't love me, I love you, all that kind of thing that goes on. And each one pursuing his own self interest. How can you have any kind of relationship, or love in this? 克:分裂、没有了关系。 如果我们之间的关系是不断的争吵 ——你不爱我,我爱你, 那么,这种事就会不断地上演。 每个人都追寻着自己的自我利益。 在这当中,你们怎么能有关系或者有爱呢?
37:53 MM: And the added factor that if you do become successful and you have that ensuing pleasure you don't want to lose that. 马:进一步的要素是 如果你确实成功了,拥有了那种随之而来的快乐, 那么你就不想失去它。
38:00 K: And the wife supports you, or the girl, and says, go on, because she gets reflected glory from you. 克:并且你的妻子支持你, 或者你的女朋友,对你说,“加油”, 因为她沾了你的光。
38:13 HT: But we're saying, Krishnaji, that we want to look at success merely as an example of a conditioning, because you just don't want to understand success and put only success aside. 哈:但是克里希那吉,我们说的是我们只想把成功看作是 局限的一个例子, 因为你就是不想去探究成功 然后只把成功摈弃掉。
38:26 K: No, but I see the factor, or I realise what brings about division between people. 克:不,但是我看到了成功的因素, 或者我意识到了是什么引起了人们之间的分裂。
38:38 SS: I could observe it in the world also which is perhaps quite a fertile field, speaking as a teacher. I can observe it in the world. Take the map of history, or take the map of current events. Perhaps more difficult in certain other subjects. 史:我也可以在这个世界上观察成功 ——这也许是个很富饶的领域,作为一名老师我想说, 我可以在这个世界上观察成功, 拿整个历史,或者拿整个时事来看它。 也许拿别的学科来看它要难些。
38:55 K: You can see it. 克:你能看到它。
38:57 SS: It's in the newspapers. 史:它就在报纸上。
38:58 K: It's not only individual success but also it's collective success, national success. 克:不仅仅是个人的成功,也是集体的成功, 国家的成功。
39:06 BN: It's quite obvious, if somebody succeeds, somebody else fails. So somebody feels good about succeeding, someone else is suffering. So in fact, they're all suffering. 布:这相当明显,如果有人成功了,那么也就有人失败了。 因此有人在享受成功时, 就有人在受罪。而事实上,他们都在遭罪。
39:15 K: Do we as a group of educators see the nature of this: that, where there is division, there is no relationship. If there is a division between the student and the educator you are educating him only about the particular subject. Here you are saying it's different. Here we are actually bringing about a relationship with the student which is not divisive, which has a quality of affection, love, and all the rest of it. 克:我们身为一群教育者有没有看到这个本质: 也就是,只要存在分裂,关系就不会存在。 如果学生和老师之间存在分裂, 那么,你就只是在教他某门特定的学科而已。 但在这里,你说情况是不一样的。 在这里,我们在真正和学生建立一种关系 ——它是不分裂的,有着某种品质的慈悲和爱, 等等这些。
40:02 MM: That's what we are attempting to do, but are we actually doing that. 马:这就是我们在尝试做的,但我们是不是真正这么做了?
40:06 K: Then you're not doing it, there is no attempt, either you sink or swim. Sorry. 克:那你就没在这么做, 不存在什么尝试,你要么沉下去,要么就游起来。 很抱歉。
40:19 SS: You can swim more or less badly. But you are still swimming. 史:你可以游得有点糟糕, 但你仍然在游着。
40:36 K: What is our responsibility in all this? The parents send their children here. First of all, if I was a parent and I sent my children here I would want them to live a life that is whole, complete, not partial. And I say to you, as educators, here are my two children, please help them to live that way, not only at Brockwood, right through life. 克:在这一切之中我们的责任是什么? 父母把他们的孩子送到这里来, 首先,如果我是父母,我把孩子送到这里来, 那么我就希望他们能过一种完整的生活 ——整体的,而不是偏颇的。 我会对身为教育者的你说, “这是我的两个小孩,恳请你们帮他们过上那样的生活 ——不仅仅在布洛克伍德期间,而是整个一生。”
41:28 BN: It's quite clear, after what we've been talking about, we have to go into the conditioning with them as if it really is the most important thing. 布:在我们所做的这些讨论之后,已经相当清楚 我们必须和他们一起探究局限, 就好像这真的是件最重要的事。
41:36 K: The most important thing. That's why I'm asking you, how will you deal with my children, if I have children, how will you deal with them? What's your responsibility? They come conditioned and the teacher is conditioned, how will you help each other to be free of this terrible trap that man has invented for himself? That's our problem. That's why we said at the beginning of this dialogue, – the last two dialogues – what is our actual relationship, is it that of a teacher who is merely concerned with the subject, or he is concerned not only with the subject but the whole way of living, his thinking, his feelings, his sorrows, his ambitions, all that. Are we concerned with all that or not? 克:最重要的事。这就是我为什么问你们, 你们要怎么对待我的孩子——如果我有孩子的话, 你们要怎么对待他们呢? 你们的责任是什么呢? 他们是带着局限来的 而老师也是带着局限的, 你们双方要怎么互相帮助摆脱这个可怕的陷阱 ——人类给自己发明出来的这个陷阱? 这就是我们的问题。 这就是为什么我们在这次对话的一开始就说 ——上两次对话—— 我们实际上的关系是什么, 是不是就只是一个关心学生课程的老师的关系, 还是不仅仅关心课程, 而且关心学生整体的生活方式 ——他的思想、他的感受、他的悲伤、他的野心, 这一切。 我们关心的是不是这一切呢?
43:08 HT: That's what we've set out the school for. 哈:这就是我们开办这所学校的初衷。
43:11 K: I agree. That was why the school existed, began. So are we doing it? So that is why I'm asking, what is our responsibility? 克:我同意。 这就是这所学校成立、开办的原因。 那我们是不是正在这么做呢? 这就是为什么我会问,我们的责任是什么?
43:37 BN: It's difficult to say that we are doing it when we are actually here in the middle of it. But if you ask me whether I'd like my child to come here, or to another school, I think I'd like her to come here because we are trying to do it more than other schools that I know of. Even if we are not doing it as much as we really ought to be. 布:很难说我们正在这么做 ——实际上在这儿我们也只是在半路上。 但是如果你问我希望我的孩子来这里 还是去别的学校, 我觉得我会想让她来这里上学,因为我们正在尝试这么做, 比起其他我所知道的学校要做得多一些, 即便做得没有我们真正应该做的那么多。
43:55 K: But a little more is not good enough. 克:但是,做得多一点还不够。
43:57 BN: I'm trying to say what I actually feel. 布:我说的是我真实的感受。
44:00 K: I know, a little more is not good enough. 克:我知道,做得多一点是不够的。
44:05 HT: Even in answering this question by saying we are trying to do it, aren't we again talking about success? We're asking the question, are we succeeding? 哈:即使在回答这个问题的时候——说我们正尝试这么做的时候, 难道我们不是又在谈论成功吗? 我们其实是在问,我们成功了吗?
44:15 K: That's why I say, to come back to the point, what is our relationship, or responsibility in this relationship? If we don't feel responsible in the sense that we are concerned totally with the whole development of the student, not subjects only, then is it possible for both of us to share that responsibility, the student and ourselves, so that we're all working together for the same end. You follow what I'm saying? 克:这就是为什么我会说——回到前面所说的, 我们的关系是什么,或者责任是什么 ——在我们的关系之中? 如果我们不觉得自己有责任 ——也就是去全然地关心 学生整体的发展, 不仅仅关心他们的学业, 那么,对我们双方来说有没有可能共同承担起责任 ——学生和我们自己—— 这样我们就会为了同一个目标而同心协力。 你们明白我说的吗?
45:11 WS: I think perhaps why we feel hesitant is that maybe some people are trying to do this and others are not, or maybe one person won't listen, and then you feel that you're not doing it. 温:我觉得,我们为什么会犹豫不决也许是因为 有些人想这么做而有些人并不想这么做, 或者也许是因为有个人没听进去, 然后你就会觉得是你没有做好。
45:26 K: If you are doing it, and you feel great responsibility in the doing of it, what happens to another who is rather weak about it. 克:如果你这么去做, 在做的时候你会感到负有巨大的责任, 那么另一个责任感很弱的人会怎样?
45:52 HT: He is either strengthened, or sometimes he leaves. 哈:他要么会增强责任感,要么会时不时地溜号。
45:55 K: Yes, that's all. You burn him out, or burn him in. 克:是的,就是这样。 你炽烈的责任感要么会赶走他,要么会把他吸引进来。
46:03 SS: There are those who slide out, Krishnaji. 史:有退出的人,克里希那吉。
46:06 K: Yes, slither out too, quite. 克:是的,也有溜走的,没错。
46:11 SS: Psychologically, I mean.

K: Yes.
史:我说的是心理上。

克:是的。
46:20 SS: I was going to say, is the task not something like this, which is to bring about a different mode of seeing things. 史:我刚才问的是, 是不是这种责任并不是这样的, 它会带来一种不同的看待事物的方式。
46:31 K: Yes, a different way of looking, observing, a way of learning, not merely accumulating knowledge, learning, the activity of learning, the mind that wants to learn. 克:是的,一种不同的看待、 观察事物的方式,一种学习方式 ——不只是累积知识,学习, 学习的活动,想去了解的心灵。
46:49 SS: And so therefore this would not be held within the time frame of fourteen to twenty. 史:因此这就不会把时间段固定在 14岁到20岁的框架里。
46:57 K: No, that's right, it doesn't. To take an example also, do the students know what love is? The care of love? 克:不会,没错,不会。 也举个例子来说 ——学生知不知道什么是爱呢? 爱的关怀?
47:19 BN: I wouldn't just ask whether the students know what love is. 布:我不会直接问学生知不知道什么是爱。
47:27 K: As an educator do I know it? Or is it all emotional, romantic, physical, sensuous? Which at present it is. So how am I to convey all this to the student? And I feel terribly responsible. Which means first I must help them to listen to what I have to say. 克:身为教育者的我了解这个吗? 或者爱就是情绪化的、浪漫的、身体上的、肉欲的吗? 目前爱就是这样的。 因此,我要如何把这一切传达给学生呢? 我觉得自己对此负有很大的责任。 这意味着我首先必须帮助他们倾听我不得不说的话。
48:13 SS: Surely wouldn't that come later, in a sense, if you established a way of seeing together, and moving together. 史:无疑,这难道不会随后自然就会到来,我的意思是 如果你建立了一种一起看的方式, 以及一起探索的方式的话。
48:26 K: But that's only possible if I've listened to you, sorry, I've got hay fever. It's only possible that we can move together, walk together on the same road if I listen to you first. 克:但是,这只有在我倾听了你的时候,才有可能 ——很抱歉,我得了花粉病—— 只有在我们可以一起探索,并肩走在 同一条路上的时候——如果我先倾听你的话,才有可能。
48:42 SS: So that's all involved, seeing, listening. 史:因此,这就是所涉及到——看、倾听。
48:45 K: Yes. First I must listen to what you have to say. 克:是的。 首先我必须倾听你务必得说的话。
48:51 BN: You're only going to listen to me if I feel fairly passionate, strongly about what I am trying to convey. 布:你会倾听我所说的——只有当我对 自己想要传达给你的东西有着强烈热情的时候。
48:58 SS: Are you saying that love is in that listening? 史:你是说爱就在那份倾听之中?
49:01 K: Yes. If I love you, I listen to you. Whether you tell me I'm a fool or I'm not, I listen to you. 克:是的。 如果我爱你,我就会倾听你。 无论你说我是个傻瓜还是我不是个傻瓜,我都会倾听你。
49:16 SS: What is the relationship of love to silence then, or to a quiet mind? 史:那么爱和寂静,或者和寂静的心是什么关系?
49:20 K: That, we are going off into...

SS: Sorry.
克:那个,我们就偏离到……

史:很抱歉。
49:25 WS: When you say listening, we ought to explore a bit more about what listening means. Because I can listen to someone who I believe in without that necessarily involving love. 温:当你说倾听的时候, 我们应该探究一下“倾听”是什么意思。 因为我可以倾听我信任的人 而其中不需要涉及爱。
49:39 K: No, I listen. I want to tell you something. I say, human beings are very self centred. I want to tell you that. Will you listen? Or you say, yes, I know that, that's nothing new that you're telling me. Which means that you are really actually not listening to what the other fellow is saying. 克:不,我就是倾听而已。我有话对你说。 我说,人都非常的自我中心。 我想告诉你这点。你会听吗? 或者你回答,是的,我知道那个, 你告诉我的事没什么新意。 也就是说,你实际上没有真的在听 别人所说的话。
50:08 WS: By listening you're saying it's not judging whether it's right or wrong. 温:就倾听你所说的, 不去评判是对是错。
50:12 K: Just listen.

WS: You're just holding it.
克:就听。

温:你就只是听着。
50:21 K: Listening implies, doesn't it also, a certain quality of attention. No? And if I want to listen to Tchaikovsky or somebody, I must attend. 克:倾听也意味着——难道不是吗—— 某种品质的关注。 不是吗? 如果我想倾听柴可夫斯基或者别人, 我就必须留意听。
50:46 WS: I think listening has become something that people don't do, like you put the record player on and you work and you do something else. 温:我觉得倾听已经成了人们不会做的事情了, 就像你会一边开着录音机,一边工作, 一边还做着别的事。
50:55 K: No, I am only talking of listening. I think if I can learn the art of listening I've solved a great many problems. How do you help the student to listen to mathematics? He's not interested in it. He wants to do something else while you're talking, explaining a problem. And how do you see that he really listens to what you're saying? 克:不,我只是在谈倾听。 我觉得如果我能学习倾听的艺术 那么我就解决了许许多多的问题。 你要如何帮助学生去听数学课? 而他对此不感兴趣。 他想做别的事——在你讲课 或者解释一个问题的时候。 而你又要如何确保他真的听你说话呢?
51:44 SS: I might talk to him about what he's doing instead of listening. 史:我也许会和他谈谈 他在做什么而不是要他听课。
51:59 K: Just look at it. If you're passionately involved, not verbally, wholly involved in what you're saying, your very passion makes me listen to you. 克:来看看这个问题。 如果你很热情地参与其中 ——不是口头上,而是全身心地投入到你所说的内容中, 那么你的这份热情就会让我倾听你。
52:19 WS: So that shows him the importance. 温:这样就向他展示了重要性。
52:23 K: If you are interested in history, and history is the story of man, anyhow, and you say look, man is you, you are the history of mankind, obviously. And find out, not merely who was the king and all that, wars, but the story of man which is essentially the story of you. And I'm interested, I'm passionate about it, so he will listen to me. 克:如果你对历史有兴趣 ——而历史说到底就是人类的故事—— 那么你就可以说,“瞧,人类就是你, 你就是人类的历史,这是显而易见的。 要去弄清楚——不仅仅弄清楚谁是国王这些事, 以及各种战争, 而是要发现人类的历史本质上就是你的故事。” 因为我很有兴趣,对此有热情,那么他就会来倾听我。
52:59 SS: I think he listens when he gets that point, which is that history is the history of himself. When he makes that leap then it all... 史:我觉得他会去倾听——在他听到 人类的历史就是他自己的历史这点时。 而如果他做到了这一飞跃,那么所有的
53:07 K: That's what I'm saying, because I'm interested in pointing it out. History is the story of yourself, the violence, the hatreds, the whole thing. 克:这就是我说的意思, 因为我的志趣是把它指出来。 人类的历史就是你自己的历史 ——暴力、仇恨,这整件事。
53:27 SS: That's the inner content of history. 史:这就是历史内在的内容。
53:30 K: Yes, but what I'm trying to say is, to help him to listen, that is all I am concerned about. 克:是的,但我想表达的是 ——去帮助他倾听,这才是我关心的。
53:41 BN: So it really isn't a matter of how to listen, or teaching someone how to listen, it just comes out of the way you are doing things.

K: Yes.
布:因此,这实际上无关乎如何倾听, 或者教他如何倾听, 而是源于你做事的方式。

克:是的。
53:52 HT: To help him to listen you must listen to him carefully. 哈:要帮助他倾听,你就必须仔细地倾听他。
53:55 K: Of course. Naturally. It implies both. Can we do this here? One can't listen if I am prejudiced, if I have a certain point of view I stick to, I can't listen to you. You may be contradicting the point of view and so I won't listen. But if you say, look, let’s listen, find out why you hold on to a particular point of view, let's find out, I am interested. I may be holding it, my own opinions may be very strong, I may be consciously, or unconsciously holding on to them. By talking with you, I am discovering. 克:当然。很自然,倾听包含了双方。 我们能在这里这么做吗? 如果我持有偏见,那么我就无法倾听, 如果我坚持某种观点, 那么我就无法倾听你。 你也许和我的观点是相悖的, 因此,我就不会去倾听你。 但是如果你说,瞧,让我们一起来倾听, 弄清楚为什么你要坚持某个特定的观点, 让我们一起来弄清楚——我对此很感兴趣。 我也许坚持这种观点, 我自身的观点也许非常顽强, 我也许有意无意地坚持着这些观点。 但通过和你交谈,我发现了这些。
54:57 SS: Similarly with inattention, and the other things? 史:同样也可以发现我们的漫不经心和别的事?
55:02 K: Of course. It seems to me I have talked all the time. 克:当然。 我觉得一直都是我在讲。
55:14 HT: Krishnaji, it seems we keep coming around again and again, we start talking about success and seeing how dangerous it is, or we can start talking about listening or many, many things. But is there...

K: ...a central thing? I don't think we have time to go into that now.
哈:克里希那吉,似乎我们一直在反复地绕圈子 ——我们一开始讨论成功,看到了成功是多么的危险, 或者我们又开始讨论“倾听”, 或者可以讨论很多很多事。 但是,有没有……

克:……一个核心的东西吗? 我觉得我们现在没有时间去探究那个了。