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BR79T2 - 思想是正确行动的工具吗？
第二次公开讲话
英国，布洛克伍德公园
1979年8月26日



1:11 If one may remind you, this is not an entertainment. You are not being converted to anything. It is not a meeting of propaganda. We are met for a serious purpose, at least the speaker is, so I hope you are also very serious. 请允许我提醒大家， 这不是一场娱乐聚会。 这里也不会有人要说服你皈依某个教派。 因为这也不是传教集会。 我们聚在这里，是为着严肃的目的， 至少讲话者是这样的， 所以，我希望你们的态度也是非常认真的。
1:51 What we were saying yesterday I think should be repeated briefly, for there may be new people here this morning. We were saying that self-awareness being conscious of oneself, one's reactions, one's inward thoughts and ambitions, various forms of suffering, pleasure, and all the travail of human beings, to be aware of all that. Aware without any choice, just to be aware, without direction, without any kind of pressure, just to be conscious of all the inward and outward activities that are going on, specially the psychological activity of the human mind. That demands certain serious attention, not analysis, but pure observation: to observe without any choice, without any direction, without any sense of pressure, that needs quite a deep attention. 我们昨天所讨论的话题， 我想需要简要地回顾一下， 因为今天早晨可能会有些新来者。 昨天，我们谈到了 自我觉察 即意识到自身和自身的反应， 意识到自己内在的思想和抱负， 意识到种种痛苦、 欢愉以及人类所有的艰辛劳苦， 觉察到所有的这一切。 没有任何选择地觉察，只是觉察， 没有方向， 也不存在任何压力， 只是意识到所有内在的 和外在的正在进行中的活动， 特别是人类的心理活动。 这需要有某种认真关注的状态， 不是分析， 而是纯然的观察： 去观察而没有任何选择， 没有任何方向， 也没有任何压力感， 这需要一种相当深切的关注。
3:56 And we were also saying that religion is the only factor that might bring all humanity together - East, West, North, South. But as religions are at present in their very nature destructive, disruptive, divisive, based on belief, dogma, ritual, and tradition, hierarchical outlook - all that organised religion is not religion at all. It is a vast sense of superstition, desire playing a tremendous part in it, and so leading to a great deal of illusion. 昨天，我们还谈到了 宗教是唯一能让全人类 走到一起的因素 - 东方的，西方的，北方的，南方的。 但是，现存的所有宗教， 从其本质上来说正是破坏性的、分裂性的， 会导致分裂，它们基于信仰、教义、宗教仪式， 以及传统和严格的等级观念。 - 所有这些组织化的宗教，根本就不是宗教。 它们富有广泛的迷信色彩， 欲望在其中扮演着极其重要的角色， 因而导致幻觉丛生。
5:06 Religion can only come about through meditation, which we shall go into as we go along in these four talks and answering questions. And we said too that if we could think together - because for most of us our career demands all our thinking, if you are an architect, engineer, scientist, and so on. All our thinking is directed in one particular direction, our whole life depends on it; and so we are conditioned to one strata of thinking, or one form of thinking. And it becomes very difficult for those who are caught in a particular groove of thought to be able to think not about something, but the whole movement of thinking itself. That is what we were saying yesterday. And it becomes so extraordinarily important now - as always probably - that human beings should come together not based on a belief, on an ideal, or on some authority, but have the capacity, the intention, the seriousness to think together. Think not about something, which is comparatively easy, but have the affection, care, attention and perhaps love, so that we are able to communicate with each other without any barrier, so that your thinking and the speaker's thinking are together. 只有冥想才会带来真正的宗教， 我们将在这四次讲话和问答中 逐步深入地探讨有关冥想的问题。 上次我们还谈到 我们是否能够一起思考 - 因为对我们大多数人来说 职业左右了我们所有的思维， 比如你是个建筑师、 工程师、科学家，等等。 我们的整个思维似乎都被定向了， 而我们的整个生活都依赖于这种定向的思维； 所以，我们被局限在了某个思维层次中， 或是陷入了某种思维模式里。 显然，以下的事情就变得非常困难， 即，对于深陷某种特定思维窠臼的人们来说， 能够深入地去思考，不是针对某些具体事情， 而是能够探索思维本身的整个活动过程。 以上便是我们昨天所讨论的内容。 而现在变得极其重要的事情是， - 或许一直都是如此 - 人类 应该走到一起，不是基于某种信仰、某种理想 或某个权威， 而是拥有这种能力，怀有这项意愿， 具备认真的态度来一起思考。 不是思考某些具体事物，这相对来说要容易一些， 而是满怀着慈悲，关怀， 关注，或许还有爱， 这样我们就能互相交流， 没有任何障碍， 这样你的思考和讲话者的思考就能一起进行。
7:57 Then we were saying we should be able to bring about a good society. The ancient Greeks, and the ancient Hindus, and others have talked about bringing about a good society, somewhere in the future, based on some ideals, concepts, intellectual conclusions, and perhaps rarely upon their own experiences, that there must be in the world a number of people who will create a society essentially good, so that humanity can live on this earth happily, without conflict, without wars, without slaughtering each other. And that society doesn't exist in spite of 2, or 3, or 5, 10 million years of human existence. Religions have tried to bring this about, but in their very nature, by their very organisation they are separative, they are based on belief, dogma, ritual, authority, and all the rest of that; it becomes really quite meaningless. Though organisations of such kind bring about a certain quality of security, that security itself becomes insecurity when it is based on illusion. I think this is all very clear, if one has gone into this matter at all. 所以我们说 我们应该能够创造一个美好的社会。 古希腊人、古印度人等等 都曾想要建立一个美好的社会， 憧憬着在未来的某个地方，基于某些理想、观念 和聪明的论断， 甚至偶尔还基于他们自己的经验， 憧憬着世界上一定会有 这样一群人， 他们将会创建出一个 真正美好的社会， 这样人类就能在这个地球上幸福地生活， 没有冲突，没有战争， 没有互相残杀。 但这样的一个社会始终没有出现， 尽管人类已经存在了两百，三百或者五百、一千万年。 各个宗教也曾试图建立这样一个社会， 但是，它们的本质，它们的组织 决定了它们的分裂性， 它们根植于信仰、 教条、仪式、权威， 诸如此类的一切； 这些确实都变得毫无意义。 尽管类似的组织 会带来某种安全感， 然而这种安全本身就会变成不安全， 因为它是根植于幻觉的。 我想，这点已经很清楚了， 只要你彻底地探究这个问题。
10:12 And is it possible while we are living on this earth, which is not the British, or the English, or the British, or the French, or all the rest of it - it is our earth. And can we live there peacefully now? Which implies not some future idealistic society based on goodness, but actually, in our daily life, now bring about such a good society? Which means to have right relationship with each other. A relationship not based on some past images, put together by thought, but a relationship, in which that which is actually happening, in this relationship of reaction, to be aware of those reactions and not build out of those reactions various forms of images which prevent actual relationship with others, however intimate or impersonal. Is that possible? Which means can the human mind, which has been so conditioned for millennia, can such a conditioned mind be aware of itself, know all the intricacies, and the complexities, and the reactions of the human mind, based upon the senses, and becoming aware of itself, bring about a deep transformation, a mutation in itself? That is the real problem. I hope we are communicating with each other. Or am I going too fast? 我们有没有可能 生活在这个地球上， 它不属于英国， 也不属于法国，或是其他某个国家 - 这是我们全人类的地球。 我们现在能否和平地生活在这里？ 这并不意味着某个未来的理想社会 是基于良善的， 而是说实际上，就在我们的日常生活中，就是现在 能否带来这样一个美好的社会？ 这意味着人与人之间拥有正确的关系。 这关系不依赖于过去的某些意象， 意象是思想的产物， 而是在关系中 实际上正在发生着什么， 在这关系中发生着各种反应， 觉察到这些反应， 但不会基于这些反应建立起 各式各样的意象， 正是这些意象妨碍了与他人的真实关系， 无论这关系如何亲密或者如何冷淡。 这可能吗？ 换句话说，人类的头脑， 千万年来一直受限的头脑， 这样一个局限的头脑能不能觉察自己， 了解自身所有的错综复杂之处， 和人类头脑的所有反应， 基于所有的知觉， 变得对自身觉察， 带来自身深刻的转变、彻底的改变？ 这才是真正的问题。 我希望我们正在彼此交流。 还是我说得太快了？
13:02 Perhaps most of us are not used to this kind of thinking, or this kind of explanation. Explanations are not actualities. You can describe the mountain, but to be close to the mountain, see actually the beauty of it, the dignity of it, the majesty of it, is quite different from the description of that mountain. But most of us are satisfied, sitting in our armchairs, to be comforted or made to feel romantic about the mountain, through explanations, paintings, and so on. But we are actually dealing not with the mountains, but with actual daily life of our life. Can that life, which is now a travail, a great deal of effort, struggle, competition, brutality, terror, you know, all the things that are going on in our daily life, can that be transformed? Not in some future, idealistic, when the environment is completely changed to bring this about, which is impossible. The totalitarians tried this: change the environment, and they say then the human mind can become transformed, which has been proved nonsensical. And also there are the others who say human conditioning, the condition of the human mind can never be changed, you must accept it, live with it, modify it, refine it and make it much more pleasant. But what we are saying is quite the contrary of these two: that the human mind can be transformed, not to fall into another conditioning, not into another set of beliefs and dogmas and all that nonsense, but actually bring about in itself a religious quality, which is the only factor of bringing about unity among all human beings. All organisations have failed, and we never apparently see such organisations can never do this, but yet we are addicted to organisations, like drugs, like whiskey, and so on. We think if we could organise, everything would be all right. 也许，我们大多数人还没有习惯这种思考， 或者这种解释。 解释并不是所解释的现实。 你可以描述大山， 但是，亲自走近大山， 切实地看到它的美、它的庄严、 它的壮丽，这完全不同于 对那座山的描述。 然而，我们大多数人却满足于坐在扶手椅里， 对那山脉心生慰藉或者产生某种浪漫情怀， 通过语言描述或是绘画作品，等等。 但是，我们现在实际上面对的 不是山脉，而是我们实际的日常生活。 这种生活，现在充满了艰辛， 大量的努力、挣扎、 竞争、残忍和恐怖， 你知道，这一切正发生在我们的日常生活中， 这种状况可以改变吗？ 不是在某个将来，在某个理想中， 由环境的彻底改变 而带来这样的改变，那是不可能的。 极权主义者曾经这么尝试过： 去改变环境， 他们说如此就可以转变人类的心智， 而事实已经证明这是愚蠢荒谬的。 还有一些人认为，人类的局限， 人类头脑的局限永远无法改变， 你必须接受这点，与之共处，并对其进行调整， 将其完善，把现实变得舒适些。 然而，我们所说的恰好跟以上两种情形相反： 人类的头脑可以转变， 不是陷入另一种桎梏， 也不是落入另一套信仰和教条，以及所有那些无稽之谈， 而是切实地为自身带来 一种宗教品质， 这是唯一能够 让全人类统一起来的因素。 所有的组织都失败了， 显然，我们也从来没有看到 这种组织永远无法做到这一点， 然而，我们却一直痴迷于组织，就像痴迷于毒品 和酒精等东西一样。 我们认为，如果我们能好好地组织，一切都将会变得井然有序。
16:35 Perhaps some of you have heard that story which I have often repeated. There were two friends walking along the road, and as they were walking along one of them picks up from the pavement, and looks at it, and his whole face changes, lightens, delighted, and he puts it in his pocket. And the other fellow says, 'What have you got? Why are you so happy about it?' 'Oh,' he says, 'I have picked up part of truth, it is so extraordinarily beautiful.' And the other fellow says, 'Now let's organise it.' And we think through organisations, however highly regarded, patronised, plenty of money, and so on, blessed by all the big cannons of the world. Such organisations have never produced a unity of human mind, for in their very structure and nature they must be divisive, separative, based on some form of idealism, or belief, and so they are essentially destructive, to bring about this unity of the mind, of the human mind, which requires love, affection, care, attention, responsibility. I hope we are meeting each other, are we? Or am I talking to myself? 也许你们中的一些人，曾听过我常常复述的这个故事。 有两个朋友正在路上走， 走着走着，其中一个人在人行道上捡起了一样东西， 他盯着这东西看，整张脸都变了， 满面荣光，欣喜若狂， 然后他就把它揣进了口袋里。 于是另一个人就说，"你捡到什么了？ 怎么这么开心？" "哦，"他回答，"我捡到了一部分真理， 它简直太美了。” 然后另一个人就说，“那么让我们把它来组织一下吧。" 我们认为通过组织， 不论是多么受人重视， 多么令人敬仰的组织，亦或是一大笔钱财等等， 或是被世界上所有的大炮所保佑， 这样的组织从未带来过人类心灵的统一。 因为正是由于它们的结构和本质 决定了它们必然是分裂的、分离的， 它们基于某种形式的理想或信仰， 所以，从根本上说，它们是毁灭性的， 而要实现心灵、人类心灵的这种统一， 需要爱、慈悲、关怀、关注和责任。 我希望我们彼此相遇了，是这样吗? 或者，我只是在 自言自语？
18:34 Q:May I ask you a question, sir? 问：先生，我可以问您一个问题吗？
18:37 K:We will do it the day after tomorrow, sir. If you are still here, if you are still interested. 克：我们将在后天回答问题，先生。 如果届时你还在这里，仍然对此感兴趣的话。
18:49 So our question is, and has always been: can the human mind, human consciousness, with all its content - the grief, the sorrow, the anxiety, the loneliness, the sense of despair, the desire to fulfil and frustration; the whole of human struggle is that consciousness, with its images of God and, you know, all that. Can that consciousness be transformed? Otherwise we will always be separative - please do pay attention a little bit - separative, destructive, self-centred, perpetuating wars and maintaining this everlasting division of nationalities, races, colour, and all the rest of it. So if one is serious and deeply concerned with humanity, with man with all his problems, economic, social, religious - all that... Can that mind be completely changed? 所以，一直以来， 我们的问题是： 人类的头脑， 人类的意识 及其所包含的一切内容 - 痛苦、悲伤、 焦虑、孤独、 绝望感、 成就的欲望和受挫的沮丧； 人类所有的挣扎和冲突， 就是意识本身， 其中也包括对神的意象，你知道的，那一切。 这样的意识可能转变吗？ 否则，我们将永远是支离破碎的 - 请大家务必留心一点 - 支离破碎的，毁灭性的，以自我为中心， 战争永无休止， 保持着这种永无止境的分别， 分成各个国家、各个种族、各种肤色，等等等等。 所以，如果一个人严肃而 深切地关注人类， 关注人类面临的所有问题， 经济的、社会的、宗教的问题- 诸如此类的问题... 那么，头脑能否彻底地改变？
20:53 And the speaker says it can be, it must be. And then the question arises: in what manner can this be brought about? Does it demand discipline? All right, sir? We are communicating with each other, you are following? Not verbally, not intellectually, but actually becoming aware of one's own conditioning, the number of beliefs, the experiences, dogmas - you know, the whole human existence. Becoming aware of it, would you ask whether it is possible to transform this enormous past, with all the knowledge it has acquired, can that be transformed? Where there is knowledge, whether the past or the present, acquiring knowledge, knowledge is always incomplete. There is no knowledge as a whole. So with knowledge goes ignorance. Please understand, this is really quite important for you to understand this. As knowledge can never be complete, therefore knowledge always goes with ignorance. Part of knowledge is part of ignorance. And when we rely entirely on knowledge as a means of advance, as a means of ascent of man, we are also maintaining ignorance. And so there is always this battle between ignorance and knowledge. 讲话者说那是可能的，一定可以。 那么接下来的问题就是： 这种改变将以何种方式发生呢？ 需要严格的戒律吗？ 是吗，先生？ 我们正在互相交流，你们理解了吗？ 不是从语言上或者智力上理解了， 而是切实觉察到了自己的局限， 那些信仰、经验和教条， - 你知道的，整个人类存在的局限。 觉察到这一切， 你是否会问，有没有可能转变 这沉重的过去 及其获取的所有知识， 这些可以转变吗？ 只要有知识， 无论是过去还是现在，获取知识， 知识总是不完善的。 从来就没有完备的知识。 所以知识总是和愚昧相伴。 请理解这一点，这真的相当重要， 你们要理解这一点。 由于知识永远不可能是完备的， 所以它总是和愚昧相伴。 知识的局限就是愚昧的局限。 当我们完全依赖知识， 用知识作为发展自己、提升自己的手段时， 我们也在维系着愚昧。 因此， 愚昧和知识之间的战斗永不停息。
23:28 And we are saying, as human beings live their lives in the past, their whole life is a movement of the past. If you observe it for yourself you can see how we live - in the thousand yesterdays, our memories, our experiences, our hurts, our failures - you know, the whole movement of time which is the past. And can that movement come to an end, so that the mind is fresh, young, alive, new? Knowledge is necessary at a certain level. If you are a doctor you must have knowledge; a surgeon must have knowledge. If you are a good carpenter you must have a great deal of knowledge of wood, and the implements, and so on. But knowledge is the result of experience accumulated through thousands and thousands of people through millennia. That knowledge is stored up in our brain from childhood, genetics, and so on, so on, so on. And that knowledge, based on experience, is memory. You follow? This is all very simple, this is not highly intellectual, or anything. And thought is the result of that movement of memory. As knowledge is always with ignorance, our memory is always limited. And therefore thought is always limited. Thought can imagine that it can perceive, or see, or experience the limitless, but thought in itself is the outcome of knowledge with its ignorance and therefore it is essentially, basically limited, fragmented and never can possibly percieve the whole. This again becomes very simple and clear, if you go into the whole question of thinking, and our whole nature, our whole civilisation, all the cathedrals, all the things in the cathedrals, the rituals, the whole circus of all this is based on thought. And so thought can never be sacred. Though it can create an image and call it sacred, but that thing which it has created is not sacred, because thought itself is limited. And we are caught in the images created by thought. So thought - please follow - thought can never bring about a complete transformation of the human mind. Right? Because all the things that thought has put together as consciousness... Are you interested in all this? 所以我们说， 当人们活在过去中， 他们的整个生活只是过去的运动。 如果你自己认真观察，你就会看到我们是如何活在 - 千百个昨天里的， 我们的记忆，我们的经验， 我们的伤害，我们的失败 - 你知道，时间的整个运动，即过去。 这种运动能不能止息， 这样我们的心灵才能 保持新鲜、年轻、清新而充满活力？ 知识在某个层面上是必要的。 如果你是个医生，你必须得有知识； 外科医师也必须具备知识。 如果你是个好木匠，你必须有丰富的 木材和工具使用知识等等。 但是，知识 是经验积累的结果， 由千千万万人 经过数百万年积累而来。 从孩提时期开始，那些知识就在我们的大脑中储存起来， 通过遗传等，一直在累积。 而这种基于经验的知识，就是记忆。 理解吗？ 这其实很简单， 并不需要高超的智力，或者别的什么。 思想是 记忆运动的结果。 而知识总是和愚昧相伴的， 我们的记忆总是有限的。 因此，思想也总是有限的。 思想可以想象自己能感知，或者看到 或体验到无限， 但由于思想本身 是与愚昧相伴的知识的产物， 所以思想从本质上说也是受限的， 支离破碎的， 永远不可能觉察到整体。 这一点也变得很简单，很清楚， 如果你能深入探究思想的这整个问题 以及我们的整个本质， 我们的整个文明， 所有的大教堂及其中的一切， 各种宗教仪式，凡此种种喧嚣之事皆根植于思想。 所以思想永远不可能是神圣的。 虽然思想可以创造出神圣的形象，并称其为神圣， 但是思想造出的东西不是神圣的， 因为思想本身就是受限的。 而我们却深陷于思想制造的各种意象之中。 所以思想- 请跟上我 - 思想永远也不可能带来 人类心灵的彻底转变。 不是吗？ 因为所有由思想拼凑出来的东西， 也就是意识… 你们对这一切有兴趣吗？
27:43 Q:Go on, go on.

K:No? 		问：继续，继续。

克：没有兴趣？
27:47 Q:Go on, go on, please. 问：继续，请继续。
27:50 K:If you are not, sirs, don't bother to listen, because this is really very, very serious. You have taken the trouble to come here, in rather rotten weather, and you want to find out what the other fellow, what the speaker is trying to say, so you have to listen, you have to find out. And in the very finding it out you test it. You don't accept anything the speaker says. Though he is sitting on a higher platform, it doesn't give him any authority. We are investigating into the whole nature of man and whether that can be transformed. Because the way we are living is terrible, destructive, meaningless, going to the office everyday, or to the factory - you know, all this. From the moment you pass your school examination, or whatever it is, for the rest of your life going to the office, struggling, struggling, struggling. And so life becomes utterly meaningless. 克: 如果你们不感兴趣，先生们，可以不必费心听下去了， 因为这的确非常非常的严肃。 你们费尽周折来到这里， 天公也不作美， 你们想要弄清楚另一个人， 弄清楚讲话者想要说些什么， 所以你们必须倾听，你们必须仔细探究。 正是在这个探究的过程中，你们来检验讲话者所说的内容。 你们不要接受讲话者所说的任何东西。 尽管他坐在高高的讲台上， 但这并不能赋予他任何权威。 我们正在探究人类的整个本质， 看看这本性能否转变。 因为我们的生活方式非常糟糕，有破坏力，并且毫无意义， 天天去办公室，去工厂… - 这些大家都清楚。 从你们通过了学校考试的那一刻起， 或是从别的某一刻起，你们的生活就只剩下 上班，挣扎，挣扎，挣扎。 于是，生活彻底失去了意义。
29:19 So we are saying, thought has created the most beautiful architecture, both in the East and in the West. And the things that have been put in it, in all the various churches - don't get angry, please, we are just describing this, the fact. Don't resist, just look at it, just listen, and if you don't want to listen, shut your ears, or if you don't want to be impolite, quietly slip out. Because what we are saying is totally contrary to everything that is going on in the world. We are asking for a psychological revolution, which means the transformation of the human mind, with all the things that thought has put in there. 所以我们说， 思想创造了 最美的建筑， 不论是在东方还是西方。 思想也创造了所有摆放在其中的东西， 放在各式各样的教堂中的一切事物 - 请别生气， 我们只是在描述这些，描述事实。 不要抗拒，只是来看一看，只是来听听， 如果你不想听，就塞上耳朵， 或者如果你不想失礼的话，就请悄悄地离开。 因为，我们所谈论的，完全有悖于 世界上发生着的一切。 我们在寻求一场心理革命， 也就是人类心灵的转变， 思想已经创造出了所有的这一切。
30:42 So we are saying that thought, do what it will, because in itself it is partial, limited, narrow, based on knowledge, and knowledge goes with ignorance, therefore thought, whatever it does - it may write the most beautiful, romantic heaven, theories of God, theories of what society should be, and so on - whatever it does, it cannot possibly bring about a radical change. But thought has its own place. You cannot go home without knowing, without thinking. If you had total amnesia, you would be lost. So thought has its right place, but thought cannot bring this change. If you once see that and grant it, even intellectually, then what is one to do? You understand my question? 所以我们说思想只会行其所好， 因为它本身就是片面的， 受限的，狭隘的， 根植于知识， 而知识与愚昧总是结伴而行， 因此，思想无论做什么， - 它可以描绘出最美丽最浪漫的天堂， 创造出关于上帝的理论， 提出社会应当如何的种种理论， 等等等等 - 但是，无论思想怎么做，它都不可能 带来彻底的转变。 当然，思想也有它自己的位置。 如果没有知识，没有思想，你就回不了家。 你若是彻底失忆了，你就会迷路。 所以，思想也有它自己正确的位置， 但是，思想不可能带来这种改变。 你一旦看到并且认可了这一点，哪怕只是在理性上认识到了这一点， 接下来你会怎么办呢？ 你们理解我的问题吗？
32:14 Please understand this very deeply, otherwise you will miss the whole point. Man has tried, in the East and in the West, depending on thought - the ancient Greeks, the ancient Hindus, and the ancient Chinese - depending on thought and saying that will help man to change, to bring about a different culture, a different society, and thought has not brought it about. If one actually, deeply realises that fact, not a theory, not something you come to through argument, through opposing opinions, but an actual fact. Then the next question is: what is the factor that will bring about this change? If thought cannot, what will? You follow? If a good carpenter has an instrument which is useless, he throws it away. But we don't. We keep it. We hope somehow that it will operate, through some miracle. We don't throw it away and therefore have the capacity to look in another direction, because we are frightened that if thought is not the solution for all our problems, including political, religious, economic, if thought is not the solution, and if you say, 'All right, I will put thought aside, because thought has its place.' Then our minds are free of the useless instrument, which has its own place. Then it has a capacity to look in other directions. I wonder if you are following all this? I hope you are doing all this and not merely listening to a lot of words, and consider it as useless and go away. 请非常深入地理解这一点， 否则，你会抓不住我谈话的整个要点。 无论是在东方还是西方， 人类一直试图 依靠思想来改变世界。 - 古希腊人，古印度人， 还有古代中国人 - 都依赖思想，认为思想会帮助人类改变， 带来不同的文化、 不同的社会， 但思想并没有带来这些改变。 如果你真真切切地、深刻地认识到这个事实， 而不是一个理论， 更不是通过论证， 通过抗辩得来的结论， 而是实实在在的事实。 那么，接下来的问题就是： 什么因素可以带来这场改变？ 如果思想不能，那么什么才能？ 你们明白吗？ 如果一个好木匠， 有个毫无用处的工具，他就会把它扔掉。 但是我们不。我们还留着。 我们还指望着这工具有朝一日能发挥作用， 创造奇迹。 我们不把它扔掉， 而扔掉以后我们才能具备换个方向看事情的能力， 因为我们害怕 如果思想不能解决 我们所有的问题， 包括政治、宗教、经济的问题， 如果思想不是解决之道，也许你会说， “好吧，我且把思想放在一边， 因为思想有它自己的位置。’ 这样，我们的头脑就摆脱了这个无用的工具， 尽管思想还是有它自己的位置。 于是，头脑就有能力换个方向来看事情了。 不知道你们有没有理解我所说的这一切？ 我希望你们正在做到这一切，而不仅仅是听到 一大堆话语后， 觉得没什么用然后就离开了。
35:06 So what is there... If thought is not the instrument of right action, then what is the instrument, right? Are we together in all this? What do you say? Our senses partially make up our whole mind, obviously. But we use our senses partially. Right? One or two senses highly awakened, highly developed, the others are dormant. Right? And is it possible to observe with all our senses, not with one or two senses, with all the senses highly observant? Do you understand the question? Which means, is there an observation which is not the instrument of thought? You are following this? May I go on with it? Not for your entertainment, but you are doing it with the speaker. We are doing it together. Which means we are doing it together with care, with attention, with affection, with love - together. Otherwise it is meaningless. You accept a lot of words and go away; it will just be ashes in your hands. 那么还有什么... 如果思想不是进行正确行动的工具， 那么，什么才是那工具呢，对不对？ 在所有这些问题中，我们是在一起的吗？ 你是怎么认为的？ 我们的所有感官 共同构建了我们的整个头脑，显然如此。 然而，我们却偏颇地使用这些感官。不是吗？ 一两种感官特别敏锐，高度发达， 其余感官却处于休眠状态。 对吗？ 我们有没有可能 用我们所有的感官， 而不是一两种感官， 用所有感官一起敏锐地观察事物？ 你理解这个问题的含义吗？ 也就是，有没有一种观察 不以思想为工具？ 你理解这点了吗？ 我可以继续往下说吗? 这不是为了娱乐你， 而是你和讲话者一起行动起来。 我们正在一起行动。 这意味着我们正一起做到这点，怀着关怀， 怀着关注，怀着慈悲，怀着爱 - 一起行动。 否则就毫无意义。 你接受完一大堆话语然后离开； 那就如同你手里的灰烬一样。
37:30 So, is there an observation, not partial, but with all the senses observe? Which means, is there an observation without the past? Senses have no past, they are acting. You understand this? This is marvellous. I am discovering something myself. The senses are responding, according to every challenge, and the senses, when they are functioning completely, there is pure observation. Isn't it? I wonder if you see this. And that observation is not induced by thought. Right? In that observation there is no centre from which to observe. There is only observation, pure and simple, without all the pressure and the volume of the past. Right? Which implies that one has to go into this whole question of discipline, because we are used to it. We are used to making an effort. To learn is an effort. A language, or anything - one has to make a tremendous effort. And is there a possibility of living - please listen to this - is there a possibility of living without a single shadow of effort? Ask yourself, please, find out the answer, because we have made effort in every direction, and we have not brought about a good society where people can live happily, without fear, without terror, without uncertainty - you follow? - all that is going on in the present world. And we say through organisation, making an effort to create an organisation we will solve that. 那么，有没有这样一种观察， 不是局部的， 而是用所有的感官一起观察？ 换句话说，有没有一种 和过去无关的观察？ 感官没有过去，它们在运作着。 你们理解这点吗？ 这真的很神奇。我自己正在发现某些奥妙的东西。 感官会对每一个挑战 作出反应， 当感官在全然运作的时候， 纯然的观察就出现了。 不是吗？不知道你们是否看到了这一点。 这观察不是思想引发的。 对吧？ 在这观察中，也没有一个中心在观察。 只有观察，纯粹而简单， 没有来自过去的所有压力和负担。 对不对？ 这意味着，你必须深入到关于纪律的这整个问题中， 因为我们已经对纪律习以为常了。 我们习惯了要做出努力。 学习是一种努力。 学一门语言或是其他任何东西 - 你必须付出巨大的努力。 是否可能有一种生活 - 请大家仔细听 - 是否可能有一种生活 不需要一丝一毫的努力？ 请你们问问自己，找出答案， 因为我们虽事事努力， 却没能建成一个美好的社会， 人们在其中可以幸福地生活， 没有害怕、恐惧和不安- 明白吗？- 而当今世界上却充斥了诸如此类的东西。 我们以为通过组织， 通过努力发展组织就可以解决这些问题。
40:44 So we are questioning the whole movement of effort, effort to reach God, if there is a God, effort to be noble, effort to have good responsibility in our relationship. And so effort implies the action of will. You are following? Will is desire, and there are multiple forms of desires. And desire in its activity must create effort. If I want a good suit, I must make an effort. If I want to be good, in quotes, I must make an effort to be good. If I want to reach God - we won't discuss God - either I must fast, be a celibate, take vows, burn in myself, struggle, struggle, struggle, great efforts to reach the ideal, the highest principle. We are questioning that effort, because we are saying that in pure observation, which I have explained a little bit, there is no effort, there is only observation and action. I wonder if you get all this. I'll go into it presently in more detail. 所以，我们要质疑这整个努力的过程， 努力到达上帝，如果上帝存在的话， 努力变得高贵， 在我们的关系中努力去好好尽到义务。 所以，努力意味着实现意愿的行为。 你们跟上了吗？ 意愿就是欲望， 而欲望的形式是多样的。 达成欲望的行为必然需要费力。 比如，我若想拥有一身高档套装，我必须得努力。 我若想变好，加引号的， 我必须付出努力让自己变"好"。 我若想到达上帝 - 我们并不讨论上帝是什么 - 要么我必须苦行， 要么独身，起誓， 内心煎熬， 奋斗、奋斗、再奋斗， 付出巨大的努力以到达理想， 到达最高境界。 我们在质疑这种努力， 因为我们说 在纯然的观察中， 正如我刚才谈到的一样， 没有努力， 只有观察和行动。 我想知道你们是否明白了这一切。 我这就更细致地探讨一下。
43:08 That is why one has to understand the whole nature of desire, because we are driven by desire, whether sexual, whether ambitious - you know, all the rest of it. Desire becomes the basis of our existence. So we have to go into this whole question of desire. Various monks throughout the world have said, 'No desire.' If you would reach God, the highest principle, desire must be suppressed - you know all this. Look at all the monks throughout the world - they are ordinary human beings, taken a vow to serve God and concentrate all your energy on that, which means desire must be held low, suppressed, or transmuted, and so on, so on. So one has to investigate desire. Observe desire, not control, suppress, transform, just to observe desire. You understand? Pure observation of desire. In that, if you go into it deeply, thought doesn't enter at all, as we explained just now, I hope. Need I go back to it again? 这就是为什么你必须了解 欲望的整个本质， 因为我们被各式各样的欲望驱使着， 性欲、野心 - 如你所知的所有欲望。 欲望成了我们存在的基础。 所以我们必须探讨有关欲望的整个问题。 遍及世上的各类僧侣 都说，"不要有欲望。" 你若想到达上帝， 最高境界， 欲望必须被压制， - 你知道这一切。 让我们看看世上所有的僧侣吧 - 他们都是普通人，发誓一生侍奉上帝， 并将所有的能量聚集其中， 这意味着必须把欲望控制在最低的水平， 压抑，或者将其转化为其他形式，等等等等。 因此，我们必须审视欲望。 观察欲望，而不是控制，压抑，或是改变其形态， 只是去观察欲望。 明白吗？纯粹地观察欲望。 在那观察中，如果你深入探究的话， 根本没有思想的介入， 正如我们在刚才的谈话中说到的那样，我希望。 我还要回过头去重新讨论一下吗?
45:00 So we are saying, as one of the major factors of life is desire, one has to understand what is desire, how does it dominate our lives, why? Whether it is desire for heaven or illumination, whether it is desire for a house - you know, all the rest of it - desire. How does it come into being? What is the relationship - please just follow it slowly, we will go into it carefully - what is the relationship between the senses and desire? You understand my question? The senses: seeing something in the shop window - a dress, a shirt, whatever it is, a nice piece of furniture, or a beautiful car - that is, seeing and desire. You understand my question? What is the relationship between the two? How would you find out? Read a book? Go to a psychologist? A professor? A guru? A man who says it is so? How will you find out? Because we are so dependent on another's explanation. Right? We want to be told. The speaker refuses to be told, by the books, by the professors, by all the hierarchical beings in knowledge. So how is one to find out? If we discard all that, you are left with yourself. How will you find out what is the relationship between the activities of the senses and desire? Or must they all go always together? Do you understand my question? Are you following all this? That interests you, all this? Gosh! Please bear in mind, if you don't mind, that we are not converting you to anything, to new aspects of desire, or this or that - nothing. We are investigating together. 所以我们说， 既然欲望是生活中的主要因素之一， 我们就必须弄清楚欲望是什么， 它究竟是怎样主宰我们的生活的，为什么会这样？ 无论是想进入天堂或者获得启示的欲望， 还是想要得到一座房子的欲望， - 你知道 -所有的这一切都是欲望。 欲望到底是怎么形成的？ 其中有怎样的关系- 请慢慢跟上我， 我们会仔细地探究这一点 - 看看感受和欲望之间 有什么关系？ 能理解我的问题吗？ 感受就是：在商店的橱窗里，你看到一些东西 - 一条裙子，一件衬衫，不论是什么， 或许是一件精美的家具， 或是一辆漂亮的小汽车 - 也就是，看到，然后产生欲望。 明白我的问题吗？ 这两者之间的关系是怎样的呢？ 你会怎样去弄清楚？ 去读一本书？ 去找个心理学家？ 去找某个教授？某个古鲁？ 去找某个告诉你就是如此这般的人？ 你会怎样去发现？ 因为我们实在是太依赖 其他人的教导了。 不是吗？ 我们想要被教导。 讲话者拒绝被教导， 拒绝被书本、被教授教导， 拒绝被知识界一切按等级划分的东西所教导。 那么，到底该如何弄清楚呢？ 如果我们摒弃了那一切， 你就只剩下你自己了。 我们该怎样弄清楚 感官的活动 和欲望之间 有怎样的关系？ 还是它们总是并肩而行呢？ 能理解我的问题吗？ 都跟上了吗？ 对这一切有兴趣吗？ 天哪！ 如果你不介意的话，恳请你记在心中， 我们不是在说服大家去皈依什么， 去认同关于欲望的某些新观念，或是其他诸如此类的东西 - 绝无此意。 我们只是在一起探究问题。
48:58 If you observe very closely the movement of desire: you see something in the window - a dress, a shirt, a trouser, whatever it is - the senses are awakened by that perception, by the seeing of that shirt, of that dress, right? The senses are awakened. Then you touch the material, which is contact, and then sensation, right? Please follow this step by step. Seeing, contact, sensation. Right? Then - observe it closely, you will see it for yourself. Then thought comes and makes an image, and says how nice it would be for me to have that blue shirt on. Right? So when thought makes the image of you having that robe, that dress, and creating the image of you in that dress and how nice you look, then desire begins. You follow this? Do please, it is very interesting, if you go into it very deeply. Seeing, contact, sensation - that is perfectly normal, it is so. Then thought comes along and creates the image of you sitting in the car and driving it, and the excitement of the speed, and all the rest of it. You have created the image. So, thought when it dominates the senses and creates the image, then desire begins. 如果你仔细观察欲望的运动： 当你看到橱窗里摆放了 - 一条裙子，一件衬衫，一条裤子，不管是什么东西 - 你的感官被这一看唤醒了， 你看见了那件衬衫， 看见了那条裙子，对吗？ 感官被唤醒了。 接着，你开始触摸面料， 先是接触， 然后是感受，对吗？ 请一步步地跟上这个过程。 看见， 接触， 感受。 不是吗？ 然后 - 仔细地观察这个过程，你自己便能明白其中的奥妙。 接着，思想介入了，造出了意象， 说，我要是能穿上那件蓝色的衬衫， 一定棒极了！ 不是吗？ 这样，当思想画出了意象， 穿上了礼服或裙子的你， 想象出你穿上那条裙子的模样， 你看起来是多么漂亮， 欲望便开始了。 你们跟上了吗？ 请跟上我，这真的很有趣，如果你能深入其中的话。 看见，接触，感受 - 这是个极其常见的过程，就是这样的。 接着思想介入了， 想象你正坐在车里驾驶的样子， 飞驰的快感，等等等等。 你制造了这个画面。 所以，当思想主宰了感官， 创造出意象时，欲望就开始了。
51:37 So the next question is, if that is so, the next question is: why does thought create the image? You understand? It is perfectly right to see a beautiful car, look at it, touch it, the sensations of it. Then thought slips in: you are sitting behind the wheel and driving it. I hope it is a fast car, in spite of the energy trouble! So, thought has created this. If one understands this, not verbally, not intellectually, but factually, then thought has no relationship with the sensation - you understand? I wonder if you see that. So then there is no question of making an effort to discipline desire, to suppress desire, to transform desire. Because we are accustomed, trained to make an effort: right desire, wrong desire, noble desire, ignoble desire, according to the pattern of each civilisation, which civilisation is put together by thought. Right? 如果以上属实，那么， 接下来的问题就是： 思想为什么要制造意象呢？ 明白吗？ 看见一辆漂亮的小轿车， 注视它，触摸它， 感觉它，这都没问题。 然后思想溜了进来： 你正手持方向盘，驾驶着这辆漂亮的车。 我希望它能迅驰如飞， 管它有没有能源危机！ 所以，是思想制造了这些。 如果你能明白这一点， 不是在字面上或智力上， 而是真切地明白了这点， 那么思想就和感觉无关了。 - 明白了吗？ 我不知道你们是否看到了这点。 然后，就没有要做出努力这个问题了， 努力去控制欲望， 压抑欲望， 转变欲望。 因为我们已经习以为常， 被训练得要去努力： 对的欲望，错的欲望， 高尚的欲望，低俗的欲望， 根据各个文明不同的模式来评定欲望， 而文明本身就是思想拼凑而成的。 不是吗？
53:22 So discipline then has quite a different meaning. Discipline now means to control. Right? To struggle to be what is demanded, either Victorian, or modern, permissive, or not permissive. Discipline ourselves to be something, control ourselves - you follow? All that is based on an effort to be, to become, to achieve, psychologically we are talking about. So when you understand the nature of desire, what place has effort? You understand? Psychological effort. What place has discipline? Discipline actually means to learn. It comes from the word 'disciple' - one who is willing to learn from the teacher. To learn. The actual meaning is to learn. We have learnt. You understand? We have learnt together the nature of desire. So, where is the whole movement of a civilisation, which says 'discipline'? Which means conform, imitate, compare - you follow? All that is implied in discipline, and much more, naturally. 因此，纪律(discipline) 这个词在这里有着完全不同的含义。 纪律现在的意思是控制。 对吧？ 去奋力达到要求， 不论是维多利亚时代的，还是现代的，是社会允许的，还是社会不允许的要求。 训练自己去成为什么， 控制我们自己，- 明白吗？ 这一切都基于 变成什么、成为什么的努力， 或是实现什么的努力， 当然，我们说的是心理上的事情。 那么，当你明白了欲望的本质， 那么还需要努力吗？ 明白了吗？ 心理上的努力。 那么还需要纪律吗？ 实际上纪律(Discipline) 这个词的意思是学习。 它源于“学徒”(disciple) 这个词 - 一个愿意向老师学习的人。 学习。 其真正的含义是学习。 我们已经学习了。 明白吗？ 我们已经在一起学习了欲望的本质。 那么，一个文明的整个运动过程在哪里， 而正是这文明宣扬着“纪律”？ 也就是顺从、 模仿和比较， - 跟上了吗？ 这一切都隐含在纪律这个词中， 当然，其中还有更多的内涵。
55:28 So, is it possible to live a daily life without a single effort? You understand? Without a single sense of control. Please, this is very dangerous, especially in a permissive society. We are not advocating permissiveness, or the opposite of it. We are examining the whole structure of human mind, which has been trained to control, and the reaction is: let go, do what you want, do the thing you want. On the contrary, we are saying: understand, look, observe, be aware of your whole existence, not just one part of it - be permissive when you are twenty. But from the beginning of life to the end, look at it, because all religions, organised religions, with their dogmas, and so on, have always demanded this - discipline; to serve God - discipline, make effort. You can't love with effort, can you? Thought can make an effort and says, 'I will try to love,' but it is not love; it is still the movement of thought, based upon knowledge with its ignorance, and thought can never have that quality of love which is whole. 那么，我们有没有可能过这样一种日常生活， 其中不需要任何努力？ 明白吗？ 没有一丝一毫的控制。 请注意，这么说真的很危险， 特别是在一个自由放任的社会里。 我们不是在鼓吹自由， 也不是在唱自由的反调。 我们是在仔细探究人类心智的整个结构， 我们的头脑已经被训练得总是想要去控制， 而对此的反应就是：去吧， 行你所愿， 去做你想做的事吧。 正相反，我们说的是： 去了解，去看，去观察， 觉察你的整个存在， 而不是其中的一部分 - 二十岁的时候你就自由自在的吧。 但是从生活的起点到终点，你来观察一下， 因为所有的宗教，组织化了的宗教， 连同它们的教义等等， 总是在要求这点- 纪律； 去服务上帝- 约束自己， 做出努力。 你无法努力地去爱， 不是吗？ 思想可以付出努力，说，"我要努力去爱，" 然而这不是爱； 这还是思想的运作， 基于与愚昧相伴的知识， 思想永远不可能 具有爱的完备特质。
57:46 So, we are saying that the human condition, which is the human consciousness, not only the particular consciousness, that consciousness is part of the whole of consciousness. I wonder if you see this? Your consciousness - living in a town, living in a village, living with a husband, wife, or a girl, or boy, that little consciousness, with all its problems, whether you live in a happy community or not a community, whether you are living happily with your wife, with your girl or whatever it is - happily in quotes - that small particular consciousness is the consciousness of the rest of mankind, because they are all particular little consciousnesses. I wonder if you see this. So your consciousness is not separate. I know one likes to think it is all special, but our consciousness and its content is put there by thought. Right? Thought has brought about this limited consciousness. Now to observe this consciousness, however limited, to observe its activity without any direction, just to observe, not choosing 'I will keep this part and let the other part go,' just to observe the whole content. When you so observe, which means there is no observer who is the past, then that consciousness has no centre. I wonder if you see this? Our consciousness now is self-centred, right? Me and my activities, me and my problems, me and my job, me and my wife, me and my other wife, other girl, me and so on, so on, so on. This consciousness is the movement of thought. Thought has put in this consciousness various activities: belief, dogmas, rituals, on the one hand - you know, all that is going on, called religion - and the business activity, the activity of personal relationship - grief, sorrow, pain, anxiety, guilt - you know, all that. All that is our consciousness. And that consciousness is the consciousness of those people living in Russia, or India, or China, or America. So, if one realises this that we are part of the whole of humanity, not English, British - you follow? - all that kind goes away. Then we become extraordinarily responsible. Not to my little family, but to all human beings. After all, that is love, isn't it? To feel totally responsible for my children who must be educated rightly, not be conditioned to a particular form of British outlook, or French outlook, whether Russian, or totalitarian, or whatever it is, educated, so that they become religious human beings. Because in that religion there is unity, which is not to be organised. And right education implies that sense of freedom from fear, from this terrible anxiety to fulfil, and so on. This is not the moment to go into right education. 所以我们说人类的局限， 也就是人类的意识， 不仅仅是指某个特定的意识， 那意识是整体意识的一部分。 不知道你们有没有看到这一点？ 你的意识 - 住在城里，或是乡下， 和丈夫或是妻子一起生活，或是同一个女孩或男孩住在一起， 这个小小的意识里， 充满了问题， 不管你是住在一个幸福的团体里，还是并没有生活在集体中， 不管你正幸福地和妻子、 女友还是其他人生活在一起，- 幸福加引号 - 这个特定的小小意识 就是其他人类的意识， 因为它们全都是特定的小小意识。 不知道你们明白了这点没有。 所以，你的意识并不是分离的。 我知道人都喜欢认为自己的意识是极其独特的， 然而，我们的意识 及其内容都是思想拼凑出来。 不是吗？ 正是思想带来了 这有限的意识。 现在，来观察一下这个意识， 不论它是多么有限， 我们来观察它的活动， 不带任何方向， 只是去观察它， 不是选择“我会保留这一部分，而忽略另一部分，” 而是观察它的全部内容。 当你这样观察的时候， 就意味着不存在过去这个观察者， 于是意识的中心也就消失了。 不知道大家看到了这点没有？ 现在我们的意识是以自我为中心的，不是吗？ 我和我的活动，我和我的问题，我和我的工作， 我和我的妻子，我和我的另一个妻子、另一个女友， 我和等等等等。 这个意识就是思想的运动。 思想让意识中充满了各式各样的活动： 一方面有信仰、教条、仪式等活动， - 你知道，发生着的这一切，被称作宗教 - 另外，还有商业活动， 还有人际关系中的活动 - 有悲伤、懊悔、痛苦、焦虑和内疚 - 这一切大家都清楚。 所有的这一切就是我们的意识。 这意识 不但是俄国人的， 也是印度人的、中国人的、美国人的意识。 所以，如果你认识到这一点， 也就是，我们是整个人类的一部分， 而不是什么英格兰人或者英国人- 明白吗？- 那么所有这类东西就都消失了。 那么我们就会变得非常负责。 不是对自己的小家庭， 而是对整个人类负责。 毕竟， 这才是爱，不是吗？ 对我的孩子们 完全地负起责任来， 让他们接受正确的教育， 而不是把他们塑造成有着某种特定观念的英国人、 法国人、 俄国人或是极权主义者，或者不管是什么人， 让他们受教育， 好让他们成为具有宗教心灵的人类。 因为在这种真正意义上的宗教中，才有人类的统一， 而这种统一不是组织出来的。 正确的教育意味着自由感， 从恐惧中解脱出来， 从这种想要达成什么的极度焦虑中解脱出来， 等等。 现在，还没到讨论什么是正确的教育的时候。
1:03:13 So when one feels that one is representative of all humanity, then you become extraordinarily responsible to the whole of mankind, therefore there will be no wars. Oh, you don't see all this. There will be no nationalities. That is actual - you understand? - this is not a theory, but when you feel that your consciousness is the rest of mankind, because they suffer in India, as well as you do here, in America, and so on, so on. So, our consciousness is the consciousness of mankind, and in the freeing of that consciousness of its content we have responsibility to the whole. And that is essentially the nature of love and compassion. 所以，当一个人真切地感受到 他就是整个人类的代表时， 你就自然会对整个人类 负起巨大的责任， 于是，就不再会有战争。 噢，你们没有看到这一切。 国家也将随之消失。 真的是这样- 你们明白吗？- 这不是理论， 而当你感受到 你的意识就是其他人类的意识， 因为正像你在这里受苦一样，印度的人们也受苦， 美国的人们也受苦，等等等等。 所以，我们的意识 就是整个人类的意识， 当把这意识从它的内容中解脱出来时， 我们便担负起了对整个人类的责任。 从根本上说， 这就是爱和慈悲的本质。
1:04:34 We are going to meet the day after tomorrow. Instead of having dialogues, or discussions, which we have tried all over the world at different times, we thought it would be a good idea to have questions. Whatever question you want to ask, then we will try to answer each question. That's on Tuesday morning. 后天，我们还会在这里相聚。 不以对话或讨论的方式， 这些方式我们已经全世界试过很多次了， 我们觉得 问答的方式很不错。 届时你们可以提出任何问题， 然后我们来试着回答每个问题。 星期二早上见。