Krishnamurti Subtitles home


BR80T1 - 處亂世以正行
公開談話(一)
英國布洛克伍德公園
1980 年 8 月31 日



0:56 May I point out, if I may, that we are not doing any kind of propaganda, nor advocating any belief or ideals, nor are we asking any of you to join something. It is non-sectarian, non-reforming, not institutional, nor something that we can look to to help us. But we are rather serious about all this. And I would like to also point out, if I may, that we are thinking over together the whole problem, the problem of existence in our daily life, together. We are not merely listening to the speaker but sharing not only the words, the meaning of the words, the significance of the content but the pursuit of enquiry. So it is your responsibility, as well as the speaker’s, to think together. And it becomes rather difficult if you cannot think together, if you are committed to some kind of institution, to some kind of belief, if you are a follower of somebody, if you are attached to a particular belief or experience; and from that point of view to think together is impossible. So I hope you will not mind that during this morning and the subsequent gathering here that we are free, mature people who are willing to go and discover for themselves how to come out of this terrible chaos that one lives in. 容我指出一件事 我們不是在做任何種類的宣傳 也不是鼓吹任何信仰或理想 更不是要你們任何人加入什麼 這是一個非宗派的 非…改革性的 非機構性的 也不是一個可以幫助我們的東西 但我們對這件事的態度卻相當認真 容我再指出一件事 我們是在一起思考整個問題 我們日常生活中的存在問題 一起思考 你們不只是聽說者講話 不只是分享他的話語 話語的意義 內容的含義 還要追尋和探究 因此你們和說者都有責任 一起思考 一起思考會變得相當困難 如果你承諾於某一種體制 承諾於某一種信念 如果你追隨某一個人 依附於某一個特別的信仰或經驗 從那個觀點出發便不可能一起思考 希望你們不介意在這個早上 在這一場聚會裡 以一個自由、成熟、關懷的人 願意探究 親自發現 如何走出我們生活其中的混亂
4:17 The world is so fragmented, more and more every year, breaking up not only religiously but also politically, economically, ideologically and so on. Everyone throughout the world is concerned about their own little selves, their own little problems – not that they are not important, they are, but we must consider the whole of humanity, not just our little shrine or our little guru, or our little belief, or our particular idiosyncrasy and particular activity. Because we are concerned, aren’t we, if one may point out, that all humanity, whether they live in India, or in Europe or in America, or in China, Russia, all humanity goes through this terrible struggle of existence, not only physically, outwardly but also inwardly, psychologically. This is the common factor of all human beings throughout the world. I do not know if we realise this sufficiently to have a global point of view that is whole, not fragmented. And as human beings living in this particular country, or in another, we are like the rest of mankind. We suffer, we have problems, we have untold misery, confusion, sorrow, the fear, the attachments, the dogmatic beliefs and ideals and so on. This is common to all human beings throughout the world. 世界如此分裂,一年比一年嚴重 不只是宗教的、政治的 還有經濟和意識型態等的分裂 全世界的每一個人只關心著 他們渺小的自己微不足道的小問題 並不是說它們不重要,它們重要 但我們必須考慮整個人類 不只是我們的小寺廟、上師或渺小的信仰 或某個特別的偶像 以及特別的活動 因為我們關心的是…容我指出來 是整個人類無論他們住在印度或歐洲 美洲、中國或俄國 所有的人類都在經歷這種可怕的生存鬥爭 不只是外在的物質世界 還有內在的心理世界 這是全人類共同的遭遇 不知道你們是否能充分體會 進而有一個整體性的…世界觀 不是支離破碎的 身為一個人類無論你住在任何一個國家 我們也像其他人類一樣 我們受苦、我們有問題 有難以言說的痛苦、困惑和哀傷 恐懼、執著 教條式的信念和理想等 這是全人類共同的遭遇
6:56 So psychologically we are the world. And the world is us, each one of us. This is a fact. As a toothache is a fact, this is a fact. It is not an idea, it is not a concept, it isn’t something one strives after, an ideal, but an actual daily factual happening in all our lives. Either you can make this into an ideal or an idea and then try to conform or adjust yourselves to that idea, or treat it as an actual fact that we are basically, at the core of our being, like the rest of humanity. You may be tall, you may be short, you may be brown, white, pink, black and purple outwardly, you may have techniques that are different from another, a different kind of education, different metier, jobs and so on, but inwardly, deep down in all of us there is this tremendous sense of uncertainty, insecurity, sorrow and unimaginable pain and grief, loneliness. This is the common ground on which all human beings stand. That is we, as human beings, are the rest of the world and the world is us. And so our responsibility is something global, not just for my family, for one’s children, those are important, but we are responsible for the whole of mankind because we are mankind. But our beliefs, our ideals, our cultures, experience divide each one of us – we are Catholic, Protestant, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims or following the latest guru. This is what is breaking us up – our nationalities, our insular particular attitudes. And this attitude brings about fragmentation in our lives. And where there is fragmentation there must be conflict between various fragments of which you are made up. 心理上來說,我們就是這個世界 世界就是我們,我們每一個人 這是一個事實 正如牙痛是一個事實一樣 不是一個觀念或概念 不是你努力以赴的理想 而是實際發生在生活裡的事實 你若不是把它變成一個理想或觀念 再試著順應或調整自己接受那個觀念 或者把它當成事實來看待 我們…基本上 就存在的核心來看 就像其他的人類一樣 你的外表也許高或矮也許是棕色或白色 粉紅色、黑色或紫色的皮膚 也許有一技之長 讓你有別於其他人 也許受過不同的教育 從事不同的行業、工作等 但我們每一個人的內在深處 都有一股龐大的不確定感不安全感、哀傷 和一股難以想像的痛苦哀傷和孤獨感 這是所有人類共同的立足點 也就是說,身為人類的我們就是整個世界 世界就是我們 因此我們的責任是普世性的 不只是對家庭和孩子的責任而已 這些都很重要 但我們要對整個人類負責 因為我們就是人類 我們的信仰…我們的理想 我們的文化…和經驗把我們割裂了 我們是天主教徒、新教徒佛教徒 印度教徒、回教徒或者追隨新出現的上師 這就是造成我們分裂的因素我們的國籍 我們特別的、自我封閉的態度 這種態度帶來了生活中的分裂 有分裂的地方就有衝突 衝突就在你製造出來的不同碎片之間
10:48 Please, if I may point out again that we are thinking together, you are not merely listening to the speaker or trying to find out what he wants to say. We are together examining the whole issue of our life. It is our life, your life, it’s not somebody else’s life. And that life, which is so fragmented by our education, by our nationalism, by our religious concepts, ideals, dogmas, images. These are the factors that bring about fragmentation in our life. And we listen to all this, perhaps casually or seriously, with passing interest, or if you are serious, not merely intellectual or emotional or romantic, but if you are profoundly serious, then the question arises: what is our relationship, what is our responsibility to the whole, not only to the particular, to the whole of mankind? The responsibility that as a human being who is essentially, basically the rest of mankind – you may not like to believe that, you may not like to feel that you are merely an individual and what has one to do with the rest of mankind, which really is quite absurd if you go into it. We are the mankind. And so when we realise that, not intellectually, not verbally but deeply, profoundly as something terribly real, not as something romantic, emotional but something that is actual in our daily life, then what is our responsibility to the wholeness of mankind? Please, if I may ask, put yourself this question. 請容我再一次指出我們是在一起思考 你們不只是在聽說者講話 或者想找出他想說些什麼 我們要一起檢視生活中的整個議題 我們的生活、你們的生活不是別人的生活 那個生活已經被我們的教育 國族主義、宗教概念理想、教條和形象撕碎了 這些就是造成我們生活分裂的因素 我們在聽這個演說 態度或許隨興,也或許認真 只是一時的興致 你們不只是知性上的認真 或情緒上…或浪漫的心態 但如果你的認真足夠深沉 那麼一個問題就會生起:我們與世界的關係 以及責任是什麼? 不只是一個特定的對象 而是整個人類 身為一個人應有的責任 實質上、基本上都與其他人類一樣 你們也許不想相信這個說法 也許寧可感覺自己只是一個個體 認為其他人跟你有什麼關係 如果你深入探究就會發現它的荒謬無稽 我們就是人類 當我們明白這一點不是知性或言說的明白 而是深沉地明白它嚴峻的真實性 不是一件浪漫或感性的事 而是日常生活中的事實 那麼我們對整個人類 該負起什麼責任? 請容我提出一個要求 拿這個問題質問自己
14:13 One feels responsible for one’s children, wife, husband, girl, boy, whatever it is, because you are intimately connected with them. You have to bring them up, education and so on, earn a livelihood, feel a certain amount of security, so you gradually restrict the wholeness of life into a small narrow little groove. And having such mentality one is disinclined or repulses, puts aside the responsibility to the whole of mankind, not only mankind but to the earth on which we all live. We are responsible for all that, ecologically, economically, spiritually. But if we cling to our little images, however reassuring, comforting, satisfying, then we bring about a great fragmentation in our life and that prevents all of us from seeing the totality of mankind. 你對子女有責任 對妻子、丈夫、男女朋友等有責任 因為你跟他們有親密關係 你得養育他們、教育他們等還要謀生 要有某一程度的安全感 因此逐漸限縮了生活的完整性 擠壓在一個狹窄的窠臼裡 活在這種心態下的人 就會不願意或厭惡 想撇開自己對全人類的責任 不只是對人類,也對地球 我們生存所在的地球 我們對這一切都有責任 生態、經濟和靈性的責任 但如果我們執著於自己渺小的形象 無論多麼令人確定、舒服或滿足 就會在生活中帶來重大的分裂 進而阻止我們看見人類的整體性
15:58 Please, do pay attention to what I am saying. The speaker is not trying to convince you of anything, nor trying to persuade you, influence you, or direct you. I am not your guru, thank god! Gurus are absurd, anyhow. 請務必注意聽我說的話 說者無意說服你任何事情 也無意勸說你 影響你或指導你 我不是你們的上師,感謝上帝 再怎麼說,上師都是荒謬的
16:37 So realising that, that we are together investigating this problem, and when the speaker says together, he means it. Because the speaker can talk to himself in his room but since we have all gathered here together under difficult circumstances, with rather foul weather, it behoves us to apply our minds and our hearts to find out a way of living that is whole, complete, not fragmented, because the world is now becoming more and more distorted, destructive, disintegrating and degenerating, morally, ethically, spiritually – if we can use that word ‘spiritually’. And we are part of that world, we are part of that society in which we live. We have created that society, whether the Christian society, or the Communist society or the Hindu, Muslim, etc. We have created it, our fathers, our grandfathers, the past generations upon generations and we who have followed them, we have made this society what it is – corrupt, there is injustice, war, man against man, infinite violence. And when one is confronted with all this, not as a picture, not as a descriptive analysis in a newspaper but when one is actually faced with it, which we have to, we are facing it now, in our daily life, what is our responsibility? What shall we do? 明白了這一點 明白我們在一起探討這個問題 說者說一起是真心話 因為說者大可在房間裡自言自語 既然我們都聚集在此 在困難的情況和惡劣的天氣下 我們就應該 全心全意地找出生活之道 完整的、不分裂的方式 因為世界已經變得越來越扭曲 破壞、解體和墮落 道德、倫理和靈性上如果可以用靈性這個詞的話 我們是那個世界的一部分 我們是社會的一份子 我們創造了那個社會 無論是基督教的社會 共產主義社會印度教或回教的社會等 我們創造了那個社會我們的父親和祖先 過往的無數個世代 我們遵循著他們的腳步 創造了今天的社會 腐敗 不公義 戰爭 人與人的對立、無限的暴力 當我們面對這一切時 這不只是一個畫面 也不是報紙上描述性的分析 而是實際地面對它,我們必須面對 我們現在就在日常生活裡面對這些 我們的責任是什麼?我們該做些什麼?
19:22 You see, our minds, our brains are so conditioned, that we can’t find an answer for this. We look to somebody, trot off to India to some guru and find out if he has a system, a method to solve this problem. They haven’t got it. They have got their own systems, their own absurdities, their own megalomaniac ideals and so on, but when you are confronted with this, as each one of us is, whether we are young or old, what is our reaction, what shall we do? 我們的心智、頭腦被制約得太深 以至於找不到一個答案 我們寄望於別人 推卸給某一個印度的上師 想知道他是否有一套制度 或一個解決的方法,但他們沒有 他們有自己的一套制度和荒謬 一套狂妄自大的理想等 但當我們面對這一切時 我們每一個人,無論老幼 我們的反應是什麼?我們又該怎樣麼做?
20:24 To find out what is right action in all this, not right according to somebody or some value, or according to one’s experience, or according to some ideological concept – such concepts, conclusions, do not bring about right action. When we use the word ‘right’ we mean that it is precise, accurate, irrespective of circumstances, what is the right action in all this, in this mad, rather insane world in which we live? To find out what is right action, not right according to me, the speaker, or to some philosopher, or psychologist, but to find out for ourselves an irrevocable, right action which would be right under all circumstances. First, to discover that for ourselves one must be totally free from all attachment, for attachment breeds corruption. If one is attached to a person, you can see the consequences of that attachment: jealousy, antagonism, fear, the loss, the loneliness. So where there is this particular form of attachment to a person, corruption is inevitable. But to cultivate detachment is another form of corruption. Right? I wonder if we understand all this? If one is attached to an ideal, you can see very well the consequences of that ideal, one becomes violent and is always trying to conform to a pattern that thought has established, and are never facing the fact of what is actually going on but rather comparing what is going on with ‘what should be’, which is another form of corruption. If you are attached to an image, and that is one of the most difficult things because each one of us has some kind of image about ourselves or an image created by thought in a church, in a temple, in a mosque and so on. Those images are very comforting, reassuring, giving us a tremendous sense of security, which is no security at all. 找出解決這一切的正確行動 不是根據某人或某個價值而來的正確 或根據個人的經驗 或某一個意識型態的概念 這一類概念或結論不會帶來正確的行動 我們使用「正確」這個詞 指的是精準的、正確的 無視於環境的…差異 解決這一切的正確行動是什麼? 在這個瘋狂、相當無理性的世界 想找出什麼是正確的行動 不是根據我,說者 或任何哲學家或心理學家說的正確 而是親自找出來 一個不容辯駁的正確行動 在任何情況下都是正確的行動 首先,要親自發現 人必須完全擺脫所有的依附或執著 因為依附帶來腐敗 如果你依附於一個人 你就能看到依附的後果: 嫉妒、敵意、恐懼 失落感和孤獨感 只要對人有這種依附的地方 就難免會有腐敗 培養離執也是另一種腐敗 對嗎?不知你們了不了解 如果你執著於一個理想 你就會看到那個理想帶來的後果 你會變得暴力 你會一直試著遵從 思想建立起來的模式 卻從不面對正在發生的事實 寧可在「是然」和「應然」之間做比較 這是另一種形式的腐敗 如果你執著於一個形象 這是最困難的事情之一 因為我們每個人都對自己有某一種形象 或是思想對教堂、寺院 或清真寺等創造出來的意象 那些意象非常有撫慰感確定感 給我們龐大的安全感 其實毫無安全感可言
24:48 And again to be attached to an experience, to hold on to an experience, some experience that you have had, talking or walking by yourself in a wood, you suddenly come or feel this oneness with nature, that there is no division between you and the world about you, this sense of wholeness. It happens and that is an experience which is registered in the mind, in the brain, and then one clings to that. And one is then lost in past memory, something that is dead and gone, and when a mind clings to something that is finished, withered away, corruption begins. 還有對經驗的執著 緊抓著一個經驗不放 你曾經有過的某個經驗 一個人在樹林裡講話或散步 突如其來的與大自然的合一感 感覺你和世界之間沒有分別 一種圓滿無缺的感覺 這種事會發生 會記錄在你的心智或頭腦裡 接著你就緊抓著不放 然後你就會迷失在過往的記憶裡 一個已經死亡的東西 當心智執著於一個已經結束或枯萎的東西時 腐敗就開始了
26:10 One hopes, if the speaker may point out, you are not merely listening to the words of the speaker but you are investigating into yourself, seeing actually what is going on within yourself. The speaker merely acts as a mirror. And the mirror has no value, you can break it, and one must break the mirror. That mirror is merely to see oneself actually what is going on inside, how we are attached to all these forms of persons, ideals, concepts, conclusions, prejudices, experience, which is the beginning of corruption and fragmentation. If you have one image and I have another, being born in India or you born in America or in Russia, or here, we have created that image in ourselves and that image separates us, and so destroys this feeling of wholeness, this sense of global reality of our life. 我希望…容說者指出一點 希望你們不只是聽說者講話 也要探究自己的內在 看你內在實際發生的狀況 說者只是扮演一面鏡子 鏡子本身沒有價值 你可以打破它,而且必須打破 那面鏡子只是讓你看見自己內在的狀況 當我們執著於一些形相人、理想 概念、結論、偏見、經驗 這就是腐敗和分裂的開始 你有一個形象我也有一個形象 我在印度出生你在美國、俄國或這裡出生等 我們在自己的內在創造了這個形象 那個形象拆離了我們 因而破壞了這種一體感 一種全球性的…生命的現實
27:51 So can one actually be free of all attachment? Not just keep one or two secretly to oneself but be totally, completely free of all that. If one cannot, then you are maintaining fragmentation and therefore conflict, division, struggle, wars and all the ensuing miseries. And it is one’s responsibility. This is real responsibility for each of us, not to have a single image. Therefore when there is no image there is a totally different kind of relationship which comes into being, not only with the person with whom you are intimate but also with the rest of mankind. Then your mind and your brain is free. It is only in that total sense of freedom there is love, not in ideals, not in dogmas, in churches, in the things that thought has created and put them in the churches and temples and so on. 我們能實際地擺脫這一切執著嗎? 不只是把一兩個隱藏在心裡 而是全然、徹底地擺脫這一切 如果你做不到你就會維持在分裂的狀態 進而帶來衝突、分化鬥爭、戰爭 以及接踵而來的悲慘 這就是你的責任 這是我們每個人真正的責任 連一個形象都沒有 當你不再有形象的時候 就會有一種截然不同的關係 這種關係就會誕生 不只是與你親密的人有關係 也與其他的人類有關係 你的心智和頭腦便自由了 只有在那種全然的自由感裡才會有愛 不是在理想、教條或教堂裡 也不是由思想創造出來 擺在教堂或寺廟裡的東西
29:54 So one asks how serious one is. Is it all, one’s whole life, an illusion, constant battle, struggle and unending misery, confusion and sorrow? Or can one live differently? Is our brain capable of totally changing its whole structure, its nature? The brain has – if I may go into it and if you are willing to listen, and if you don’t listen it doesn’t matter either, but if you care to listen and since you have taken the trouble to come here, uncomfortable and all the rest of it, it seems necessary, adequate and right that one should listen to something that is actually true. Our brains have been conditioned along a certain pattern. You can observe it for yourself. The speaker is not a brain specialist, though he has talked to many of them about the brain, but one can observe oneself, the activity of the brain. It is conditioned to follow a certain pattern. That brain has evolved through time, through millennia and therefore that brain is not my brain or your brain, it is the brain of mankind. And that brain has followed a certain way, a certain route, a certain pattern, and that pattern has brought about this division between man and man – which is obvious when you look at it, when you go into it. That brain, which has evolved through time, which is the result of millennia, is constantly seeking security in images, in persons, in conclusions, in some ideals, that is the pattern human beings have followed. Please look at it yourself, you will see the truth of it. And it becomes extraordinarily difficult to break that pattern, even an ordinary physical habit like smoking, drinking, etc. When it becomes deep-rooted habit, it is extraordinarily difficult to break it. And the brain has followed this particular path, this particular way of living, being concerned with itself, with its own egotistic activities, its own sorrow, its own particular anxiety, its own pleasures, its own demands – that has been the pattern of this brain for generation after generation. 因此你會問自己有多認真 人的整個生命是一個幻覺嗎? 持續不斷的戰鬥和掙扎嗎? 永無休止的悲慘、困惑和哀傷嗎? 或者人可以過不同的生活? 我們的頭腦有能力 完全改變它的整個結構 它的本質嗎? 頭腦有… 如果你願意聽我深入探討 如果你不聽也無所謂 但如果你想聽 而且不辭辛勞地來到這裡 忍受不舒服和其他的一切 那麼聽一些事實似乎是必要的、適當的 和正確的做法 我們的頭腦…被制約了 按照某一種模式制約 你可以觀察自己看看 說者不是腦科專家 不過他跟許多腦科專家談過 我們可以觀察頭腦的活動 如何在制約下遵循著某一種模式 那個頭腦經過幾千年的演化 它不只是你的頭腦或我的頭腦 而是整個人類的頭腦 那個頭腦 始終遵循著某一種方式某一個路線或模式 那個模式 已經帶來了人與人的分化 當你注視它、深入它的時候這是顯然可見的事實 那個經過時間演化的頭腦 是幾千年演化而來的結果 不斷地在追求安全感 在形象裡、在人的身上 在結論裡、在一些理想裡 這就是人類在遵循的模式 請看看自己你就會看到它的真相 要打破那個模式已經變成一件極困難的事了 即使是一個普通的習慣 譬如抽煙、喝酒之類的事 一旦變成根深柢固的習慣 想破除它就變得無比地困難 頭腦一直在遵循這個特別的道路 這種特別的生活方式 只關心它自己 伴隨著它自有的我執活動它的哀傷 自己的焦慮、享樂和要求 這就是頭腦幾世紀以來的模式
34:53 And we are asking: can that pattern be broken? Not by will, not by some kind of pressure, idealistic carrot, but seeing the actual pattern of our life and seeing the cruelty of it, the inanity, the stupidity of it, that to live in images is the very essence of a destructive way of life. When one sees the truth of it you are already breaking away from it. So one asks: does one actually see the pattern, the norm, the continuity of this movement from generation to generation? And this movement is in the brain, in our brain, in our hearts, in our minds. So can one be free of all that? Otherwise we pursue the way of our daily life which is corrupt, fragmentary, destructive, violent. 我們要問的是: 這個模式可以打破嗎? 不是憑著意志力 不是憑著某種壓力或一根理想的胡蘿蔔 而是藉由看清生活的實際模式 看見這個模式的殘酷無情 它的無能和愚蠢 活在意象裡 就是破壞性生活方式的本質 當你看見它的真相時 你就已經掙脫它了 因此我們要問的是: 我們確實看見那個模式…這個規範 這個代代相傳的活動嗎? 這個活動就在我們的頭腦裡 在我們的心智裡 我們能擺脫這一切嗎? 否則我們追求的生活方式 就是腐敗、分裂、破壞和暴力的
37:13 So, what will make a human being put away all these things? Religions have threatened saying, ‘If you don’t do this you will go to hell,’ – especially in the Christian world. If you don’t follow a certain religious image you are – you know, etc. So what will make a human being, like us, see the reality of it and break, go through with it, finish with it? You understand my question? We have tried every kind of persuasion, propaganda, we have followed so many ideals, gurus, concepts, we have exercised every kind of will, rewards and punishments. But apparently human beings don’t change, change radically, they change a little bit here and there, depending on circumstances, convenience, satisfaction. So what will make us change? For example, a very simple fact, that we have multiple images not only about ourselves, about our country, about our neighbour, about our politicians, our religion, our god, etc. – images, created by thought. What will make us drop one of them so completely that you never go back to that? Please, this is a serious question we are asking, not just a casual question on a morning that we have gathered together. This is a very serious question. What will persuade you, what will make you, what will drive you, what will influence you to change? We have tried all those, every form of persuasion, every form of reward and punishment, but apparently after thousands and thousands of years we are still more or less the same – self-centred, lonely, being attached to some ideal, following some pattern, political or religious or other. All that indicates the fragmentary state of our brain and mind. 什麼才能讓一個人 放下這一切? 宗教曾經威脅我們 說如果不這麼做你就會下地獄 尤其是基督教的世界 如果你不遵循某種宗教意象 你就是…諸如此類的事 什麼會讓我們這樣的人 看到它的實相 通過它,進而結束它? 了解我的問題嗎? 我們試過各種說服和宣傳手段 也追隨過太多理想、上師和概念 也發揮過各種意志力 獎賞和懲罰 但顯然人類沒有改變 根本上的改變 他們會有局部的小改變 依環境、方便和滿足感而定 什麼才能讓我們改變? 例如,一個非常簡單的事實 我們擁有各式各樣的意象 不只是自己的、國家的鄰居的 也有政客、宗教和神的意象 意象,思想創造出來的意象 什麼會讓我們拋棄其中一個 徹底地拋棄以至於你再也無法回頭? 請注意我在問一個嚴肅的問題 不只是一個即興的問題 在我們聚集一堂的早上 這是一個非常嚴肅的問題 什麼才能說服你、促使你 驅動你或影響你去改變? 這一切我們都嘗試過 每一種說服的方式 每一種獎賞和懲罰的方式 但顯然經過幾千年以後 我們還是沒有多大的改變 自我中心、孤獨 執著於某個理想 追隨某種政治、宗教或其他模式 這些都顯示了頭腦和心智的分裂狀態
40:57 Since you are good enough to listen to all this, what will make you change? What will make you naturally, easily, without effort, without any anxiety, or thinking about the future, just give up, let the images that one has fall away? If one sees logically, reasonably, the fact that images of various kinds do separate man from man, that images between people prevent relationship, and that relationship assumes a responsibility which is not responsibility at all but a form of particular individual pleasure, all that. Now what will make my mind deeply reject all that? Is it the fault of our education? Always geared to passing examination, jobs, career, money, power, position, is that one of the major factors of this fragmentation? Is it the political system, whether left, right, extreme left, extreme right and so on? Or is it also the fault of our religions, organised religions with their dogmas, rituals which have no meaning whatsoever – it is all so stupid, childish! And we go on with them, and are always frightened about the future, this sense of deep, inward insecurity. So seeing all that, what is our answer to it? 既然你們有心聽我說話 什麼才能讓你改變? 什麼能讓你自然、輕易又毫不費力地 沒有任何對未來的焦慮或籌謀 單純地放棄讓你的意象自然地脫落? 如果你以邏輯、理性的方式 看見各種意象把人拆離的事實 那些會阻止人建立關係的意象 那個讓你承擔責任 但實際上完全不是責任 而是一種特別的個人享樂 這一切 什麼會讓你打心靈深處拒絕這一切? 這是教育造成的錯誤嗎? 卯足了勁為了通過考試 為了工作、事業、金錢權力、地位打拚 這就是造成分裂的主因嗎? 是因為政治制度無論是左派或右派 無論是極左或極右等因素嗎? 或者也是宗教的錯誤? 有教條和儀式的組織化宗教 這種毫無意義的東西 如此愚蠢和幼稚! 我們卻繼續接受 始終為了未來感到恐懼 內在一股深沉的不安全感 看見這一切以後 我們的答案是什麼?
43:43 Either you reject all that, or oppose it by clever arguments – the impracticality of a life without ideals, without images, that is what you think. We think that is the most practical way of living. It is not. On the contrary. You can see what is happening in the world, the Communists, the Socialists, the Catholics and so on, with their images, with their ideals, with their concepts, dividing. And if they do not divide they try to convert you to their way, through pressure, through torture, through various forms of excommunication and so on. 你一則拒絕這一切 或者用巧妙的論辯駁斥它 主張沒有理想或意象的生活是不實際的 你們是這麼想的 我們認為這是最實際的生活方式,其實不是 正好相反 你們可以看到世界發生的事 共產主義者、社會主義者和天主教徒等等 用他們的意象、理想和概念分化、分化、再分化 如果分化不了就想辦法讓你改宗 透過施壓、折磨 透過各種形式的排擠和驅逐等
44:43 I think it is rather important to find out for oneself whether this fragmentation, brought about, as we explained, through attachment, through various forms of ideals and images, can they be totally set aside so that one has quite a different way of living, a different way of thinking, looking, feeling, with love and a great sense of compassion? 我認為親自找出答案 是相當重要的事 這種分裂的原因照剛才解釋過的 無論是透過各種執著理想和意象形成的 我們能把它們擱置一旁 好讓我們過一種相當不同的生活方式 一種不同的思考、觀看和感覺方式 伴隨著愛和深度的慈悲感
45:38 Why do you listen to me, to the speaker? You are all very silent. Is the speaker trying to stimulate you or influence you, or persuade you to think in this way or that way? And he is not. All that he is saying is look, observe, for god’s sake look at things as they are, see what is actually going on within your skin, within your mind, within your heart, not try to translate it, distort it, but actually observe what is. 你們為什麼聽我,聽說者說話? 你們都非常沉默 是因為說者想刺激或影響你們 或說服你們用某種方式思考嗎? 他沒有 他只是說,注視、觀察看上帝的份上 看事物的本然 看實際發生的情形 在你的皮膚和心智裡的情況 不是轉譯它或扭曲它而是實際地觀察 事物的本然
46:46 So one of the problems is, perhaps that is the major problem, that our thought has created this society, our thoughts have brought about this religious structure without any meaning, our thoughts have built this world about us, apart from nature, apart from the animals, apart from the earth, otherwise thought has built all this – our churches, our gods, our religions, our political system, right, left, centre, extreme this or that, it is thought. And thought must be always limited because thought is the outcome of knowledge. And knowledge can never be complete about anything. Knowledge is the process of time, the accumulation of experience, not only yours, but all the past generations and generations, it is knowledge that we have stored in the brain, and that knowledge is always incomplete, it always goes with ignorance. Ignorance and knowledge go together. And out of that knowledge – memory, thought. And so thought, under all circumstances, is limited, narrow, must be fragmentary. It may create the most beautiful bridges, these marvellous cameras, the battleships, the submarines, the latest guns and so on. And also thought has created all the things of this world like beautiful architecture, but not the streams, the rivers, the birds, the wonderful earth on which we live. And thought has created the images which we have put in the churches, in the temples and so on. So thought by its very nature is fragmentary, and we, the whole of our being, our struggle, is the movement of thought. 因此其中一個問題是 或許是最主要的問題 也就是我們的思想 創造了這個社會 我們的思想促生了這個宗教結構 毫無意義的結構 我們的思想建立了周遭的世界 脫離了大自然的世界 遠離了動物和大地的世界 此外,思想也建立了所有的… 我們的教堂和神明 宗教和政治制度右派、左派和中間派 極端的這個派或那個派是思想 思想必然有它的侷限 因為思想是知識的結果 知識永遠無法窮究…事物的真相 知識是時間的過程 是經驗的累積 不只是你的也包括過往的世世代代 是我們儲存在頭腦裡的知識 這種知識永遠是不完整的 始終伴隨著無知 無知與知識並肩而行 從那個知識衍生出來的就是記憶和思想 因此,思想 在所有的情況下 是有限的、狹隘的 必然是支離破碎的 思想也許會創造最美的橋樑 最神奇的攝影機 戰艦、潛水艇和最新式的大砲等 思想也創造了世界的一切事物 例如,美麗的建築物 但卻無法創造溪流、江河和小鳥 以及我們生存所在的美好地球 思想也創造了形象 我們擺放在教堂和寺廟裡的形象 因此思想的本質就是支離破碎的 我們…我們整個存在和奮鬥 都是思想的活動
50:36 Are you getting tired? You can be, I don’t care. It is a very serious thing we are talking about. And we rely on thought to alter the course of our life. And when thought alters the way of our life, that way of life will be fragmentary, it will not be whole, complete. 你們累了嗎? 有可能,但我不在乎 我們討論的是非常嚴肅的事 我們依賴思想 來轉換生活的路線 當思想改變了生活的方式時 那種生活方式也是支離破碎的 不會是完整、圓滿的生活方式
51:33 One comes to the point, one realises all this, if one has gone into it at all, and one comes to a certain wall against which you can’t go further because we are still operating with the only instrument we think we have: that instrument is thought. Thought, desire and pleasure and fear, which are all the movement of thought. We will go into that a little later. So through thought we think we can break through this pattern of the brain which has been evolved through millennia. I wonder if we see that. Thought cannot possibly break through. It can only create further fragments because in its very nature it is limited. Right? Can we move from there? 我們來到一個點 如果你深入,就會明白這一切 你就會走到一堵無法跨越的圍牆 因為我們的運作 仍然是同一個自以為擁有的工具 那個工具就是思想 思想、欲望、享樂和恐懼 都是思想的活動 我們稍後會詳談 我們透過思想 自以為能打破這個頭腦的模式 這個演化了幾千年的頭腦 不知你們明不明白 思想不可能突破那一堵牆 它只能創造更多的碎片 因為它的本質是有侷限的 對嗎?可以往下談嗎?
53:10 Knowledge is necessary. Technological, surgical, engineering, scientific knowledge and so on is necessary. But the knowledge that one has psychologically accumulated through millennia as human beings, is that necessary at all? You understand my question? I must have knowledge to go to the room in which I happen to live. I must have knowledge how to drive a car, how to write in English, or in French, or in Spanish or Sanskrit and so on. I must have knowledge to earn a livelihood, skilfully or otherwise. That is absolutely necessary. But why should I have this accumulation of psychological knowledge? You understand my question? Which is the centre of me. Right? My egotistic pursuits, my egotistic demands, activities, the whole of that, is based on knowledge. That knowledge may be transmitted into the future, modified by the present, but it is still knowledge. And psychologically why should I have any knowledge at all? Knowledge being, when one has a relationship with another, intimate or otherwise, one creates through time, through various forms of conflict, pleasure and so on, the image that one has about you and she has about you. That image is our knowledge – I don’t know if you are following all this. Right? May we proceed? 知識是必要的 科技、手術和工程 科學知識等都是必要的 但人經過幾千年來 在心理上累積的知識 也有它的必要性嗎? 了解我的問題嗎? 我必須有知識才能走進 我住的那個房間 我必須有知識才能開車 如何用英文寫作 法文、西班牙文或梵文等 我必須有知識才能謀生無論我是否精通 這是絕對有必要的 但我為什麼要累積這種 心理上的知識? 了解我的問題嗎? 那就是我的中心,對嗎? 我那個自我本位的追求自我本位的要求和活動 這一切都建立在知識的基礎上 那個知識也許被傳送到未來 再經過現在的修飾 但仍然是知識 但心理上我為何非要有任何知識不可? 知識是指… 當你與另一個人有關係時無論是否親密 你透過時間創造 透過各種形式的衝突、享樂等 創造出我對你的形象或她對你的形象 那個形象就是我們的知識 不知道你們明白沒有 對嗎?我可以繼續講嗎?
55:37 That knowledge is fragmented, obviously. I can’t know all about you. I may know all about you at a totally different level – I am not talking of that. We are talking of the physical daily existence in which there is so much conflict between two human beings. And that conflict comes about through this constant building of images between you and the other. No? And can that image-making come to an end in our relationship with each other, as a man and a woman, or mother and child and so on, can that image-making come to an end? I say it is possible, it can be done. We have potential to create the image, we have also the potentiality to break down that image. That is, why does the mind, thought, and also the brain, create the image? Please this is very important to understand because the wholeness of life, if one comes to that, that sense of total integrated whole, then all conflict ends. And as long as there is this movement of thought creating images between oneself and another, that sense of destructive individual narrowness will also destroy the wholeness. You understand what I am saying? 顯然那個知識是支離破碎的 我無法了解你的一切 我也許在完全不同的層面上了解你 我談的不是那個 我談的是有形的日常生活裡的存在 其中有太多人與人的衝突 那個衝突的來源 就是你和別人之間不斷建立的形象 不是嗎? 這種形象的塑造能結束嗎? 在我們彼此的關係之中 包括男女關係、母子關係等 這種形象的塑造能夠結束嗎? 我認為有可能,我們能做到 我們有創造形象的潛能 也有拆除形象的潛能 換言之 心智、思想和頭腦為什麼要創造形象? 請注意,了解這一點非常重要 因為…生命的完整性 如果你來到這個點 來到那個整合為一的完整感 那麼所有的衝突就會終結 只要思想的活動還在 在自己和他人之間創造形象 那種個人的、狹隘的破壞感 也會摧毀整體感 了解我說什麼嗎?
58:23 My lord, why are you all so silent? I hope you are thinking together and that is why you are silent. 天呀,你們為何這麼沉默? 希望你們是因為一起思考才會如此沉默
58:42 So after pointing out all this, what is one to do? Is it ever possible to end this movement of not only creating images about the whole as well as the particular, can this movement of thought end? You know, meditation is essentially the ending of thought. Not the meditation that people practise twenty minutes every day, or twenty minutes in the morning and the evening, or meditation according to a system and so on, that is not meditation at all. Meditation is the ending of image-making by thought and the ending of psychological knowledge totally so that the mind is free from the past. That is real meditation. 在我指出這一切以後 我們該怎麼做? 我們有可能終止這種活動嗎? 不只創造整體的形象 也創造特定的形象 這種思想活動可以…終止嗎? 知道嗎?…冥想實質上就是思想的終結 不是那種每天練 20 分鐘的靜坐 或早晚各做 20 分鐘 或依照某種系統的靜坐等 那些根本不是冥想 冥想是思想塑造形象的終結 以及心理知識的完全了斷 以至於心智完全擺脫了過去 這才是真正的冥想
1:00:26 Now we have talked for an hour and what good has it done? Not that one is seeking a result – I am not, the speaker is not. I don’t care if you do, or don’t. It is up to you. So after listening for an hour perhaps to this harangue, or to this sermon – you know that story of a preacher talking to his disciples every morning, that was his habit. He would get up on the rostrum, talk to his disciples for about ten minutes, or quarter of an hour or an hour, and begin the day that way. So one morning he was preaching, talking about the goodness of life, how to behave. A bird comes and sits on the windowsill and the preacher stops talking. And they all listen to that bird. And the bird flies away and the preacher says. ‘The sermon is over for this morning’. Right? Got it? 我們已經說了一個小時 你們得到什麼好處? 並不是說我們要尋求結果 我不是,說者不是我不在乎你們是否尋求結果 決定在你們 因此…聽了一個小時或許是高談闊論 或許是說教 你們都聽過一個牧師的故事 每天早上都跟門徒開示 這是他的習慣 他會走上講台跟門徒講話 講 10 分鐘或 25 分鐘 他每天的第一個活動 有一天他在說教的時候 談一些人生的善如何行善之類的 一隻鳥飛到窗框上 牧師停止了談話 師徒們都聆聽那隻鳥的叫聲 鳥飛走以後,牧師說 今天早上的佈道結束了 對嗎?聽懂了嗎?
1:02:08 May I get up now? We will continue tomorrow morning. SUBTITLE TEXT COPYRIGHT 1980 KRISHNAMURTI FOUNDATION LTD 我可以站起來了嗎? 明天早上再繼續 字幕版權所有 1980克里希那穆提基金會