克里希那穆提 - 頭腦能自我轉化嗎？

Krishnamurti Subtitles

BR80T2 - 頭腦能自我轉化嗎？
公開談話(二)
英國布洛克伍德公園
1980 年 8 月31 日

0:53	May we go over a little bit what we said yesterday and we will continue from then on?	我們可以先把昨天講過的稍做一番複習再接著繼續講嗎？
1:08	To put it briefly, what we were saying yesterday morning was that the world is in such a chaotic condition, fragmented, violence, every kind of human degradation going on. And it is one of the basic irrefutable facts that all human psychology, all human state throughout the world, whatever country one may live in, that all human beings suffer, that all human beings go through various forms of despair, depression, anxiety and innumerable ways of fear and the everlasting pursuit of pleasure. This is a common ground upon which all human beings stand. This one must see very clearly, that there is no actual division psychologically, inwardly, inside the skin as it were; that we human beings are extraordinarily similar. Though we may physically have different shapes and colour and stature but intrinsically we are the mankind. You are the world and the world is you. And there is no such thing as really the individual. I know perhaps you will not like this. Because we are all conditioned, educated to think we are separate individual minds, souls, entities, but it is not a fact. We are the result of centuries of conditioning to this idea and the actual fact is that we are like the rest of mankind. Our brains though conditioned to a particular activity of a so-called individual, but actually we are not, we are the whole of mankind. And we said yesterday, when we actually realise this fact, which is irrefutable, you may logically tear it to pieces, but it is so, and then one asks: what is our responsibility? – not only to our own particular family, friends and so on, but to the whole world, to the whole humanity of which we are. What is our responsibility? Do we act as a whole human being? Or as a fragment of that totality, a fragment that is dividing itself all the time, into nationalities, cultures, religions, various sects and gurus and all that business.	長話短說昨天早上談過的內容是這個世界的混亂狀況分裂、暴力各種各類正在發生的墮落一個基本又不容駁斥的事實就是所有人類的心理全世界所有人類的處境無論住在哪一個國家所有的人類都在受苦所有的人類都在經歷各種形式的絕望沮喪、焦慮無以計數的恐懼以及永無止境地追求享樂這就是全人類共同的立足點我們必須清楚地看到這一點我們內在心理上並沒有真正的分別在皮膚的內在我們人類都出奇地類似也許我們的身體體型、膚色和體格各異但本質上，我們都是人類你是世界，世界就是你而且也沒有個人這種東西我知道你們或許不喜歡聽因為我們所受的制約和教育都讓我們認為自己是個別的心智、靈魂或實體但這不是事實我們是這個觀念幾千年制約下的結果事實上，我們和其他人類一樣我們的頭腦被制約成一種特別的活動一種所謂的個體但實際上，我們不是我們是人類的整體我們昨天說過當我們實際體會這個事實不容辯駁的事實你也許會用邏輯把它撕成碎片但事實就是如此接著你會問我們的責任是什麼？不只是對親朋好友的責任而是對整個世界對我們本身的人類我們的責任是什麼？我們會以整個人類的身份待人處世嗎？或者…是那個整體的碎片？那個始終支離破碎的片段？分化成不同的國籍、文化、宗教各種宗派、上師等諸如此類的事
5:48	And our brains, our mind, our hearts are actually the expression of the world in which we live, the society which we have created, with our violence, greed, anxiety, uncertainty, confusion, longing for some security both physically and psychologically, and we have created such a society which is obviously corrupt. This corruption, as we said yesterday, comes into being when there is attachment to any particular country, idea, belief, dogma and so on. Where there is attachment there must be corruption. I think this also is an obvious fact. If you are attached to a particular symbol, to a particular image, that must inevitably bring about division and therefore conflict and corruption, which is seen all over the world. And so that is what we said yesterday, more or less.	我們的頭腦、心智和真心其實就是這個世界的展現也是我們創造出來的社會用我們的暴力、貪婪、焦慮不確定、困惑對安全感的渴望心理和身體上的安全感我們創造了這個顯然是腐敗的社會正如我們昨天說過的這種腐敗是因為我們對觀念、信仰和教條等的依附而產生的有依附的地方必然有腐敗我認為這也是一個明顯的事實如果你依附於一個特別的象徵或特別的形象必然會帶來分化進而帶來衝突和腐敗這是全世界都看得到的這大致上就是我們昨天談過的
7:26	And also we said, realising all this, which most of us do if you are at all watching, observing what is going on in the world and also within ourselves, what shall we do? We observe this, we see it, we know it, we feel it, and yet we seem to be incapable of breaking through this, breaking through this heavy curtain of tradition, of our conditioning of the brain following a certain pattern: pattern of fear, pleasure, anxiety, nervous responses, hate, jealousy, the old pattern of thousands and thousands of years. And perhaps we are aware of this, and yet we seem to be incapable to finish with it, because we are the result of many, many thousands of generations who have lived in the same way as we are living now, perhaps a little modified, a little more comfortable, a little more sanity, a little more comfort and so on, but inwardly we are almost like the thousand past generations.	我們也說過，當你明白這一切如果你有觀察的話多數人都會有所明白觀察世界和我們內在發生的事我們該怎麼做？我們觀察、看見、知道也感覺得到然而，我們卻無能為力不能突破這個狀態突破這個傳統建立的沉重帳幕我們的制約讓頭腦遵循某一種模式恐懼、享樂、焦慮神經質反應、憎恨、嫉妒幾千年形成的舊模式或許我們覺知了這一點但卻無能為力，無法了斷它因為我們是幾千個世代的結果他們也過著同樣的生活方式我們也許稍微修正一點比較舒適一點理智稍微多一點舒適感等稍微多一點但我們的內在幾乎和一千個過往的世代一樣
9:19	So the question arises from that: why is it that we don’t change? Change, not only superficially, but deeply, profoundly, so that our way of looking at the world, looking at ourselves is entirely different, a way of living which is not a series of continuous conflict, misery, struggle. Why is it we human beings who have cultivated such an extraordinary technological world, with all its destructive, and perhaps some of it is sanity, why is it that we, as human beings who are supposed to be somewhat intelligent, educated, sophisticated, why is it that we do not radically bring about psychological revolution? If one asks that question, if you have ever asked it of yourself, and find that you are caught in your own experiences, and the images that one has created, not only of the world but of the so-called religious mind, which is essentially based on images and symbols and superstitions and hopeless illusions. And yet we go on, day after day continuing with our fears, with our anxieties, uncertainties, confusions, sorrow and so on.	因此便生起了一個問題我們為什麼沒有改變？不只是膚面的改變而是深沉的改變以至於我們看世界的方式看自己的方式都會截然不同這種生活方式不是一連串的… 持續的衝突、悲慘、奮鬥我們人類為什麼創造出如此神奇的科技世界伴隨著破壞或許有一部分理性為什麼我們人類一個理該有智慧的物種有教育的、高雅的為什麼我們沒有在根本上引發一次心理革命？如果你問這個問題如果你曾經問過自己發現你困在自己的經驗裡困在你創造的形象裡不只是世界的形象還有所謂的宗教情操基本上，這都是建立在形象和象徵迷信和毫無希望的幻覺上然而，我們卻日復一日地活在恐懼裡活在焦慮和不確定裡活在困惑和哀傷等裡面
11:33	As we also said yesterday, we are thinking together. We are investigating together. It is not that the speaker is laying down any principles, any ideas, any conclusions or doing any propaganda of any kind. Unfortunately we have been accustomed, or trained, or have accepted that we cannot solve these problems ourselves, we must go to somebody, either the priest or the psychologist or the latest guru, with all their fanciful dress and absurdities and we are so trained and conditioned that we cannot dissolve our own inward struggles, problems and anxieties. That is why you are all sitting here probably, hoping that I will help to solve your problems, hoping that you will have a new kind of enlightenment. You know that is one of the strange things, enlightenment cannot be given by another. It is not a matter of time. It is not a matter of evolution, of gradual growth, moving from one step to another step, higher and higher, until ultimately you come to something called enlightenment. That is a good old tradition, a trap for the human mind. That which is eternal, which is nameless, is beyond time and you cannot approach it through time, through gradation, gradual process.	昨天也說過我們是在一起思考一起探討並不是說者要訂出任何原則任何觀念和結論或進行任何類型的宣傳不幸地是我們受的制約、訓練和接受的一切讓我們失去了解決這些問題的能力我們必須求助於別人無論是牧師、心理醫生或最新的上師那些花俏的服裝和荒謬的言論我們被訓練和制約得如此之深以至於無法化解自己的掙扎問題和焦慮或許這就是你們坐在此地的原因希望我能解決你的問題希望能獲得一次新的開悟這也是怪事之一開悟不能由別人給你不是時間的問題不是演化或漸進式的成長一步一步地越爬越高最後爬到那個叫開悟的階段那是老舊傳統為心智設下的陷阱那個恒常又不可名狀的是超越時間的無法在時間的過程裡達到或透過漸進和逐步的方式達到
14:03	So we must ask: why is it that our minds and our hearts and our own brain which is the brain of humanity, because your brain is not your brain, it is the brain that has evolved through millennia, and that brain has followed a certain path, a certain route, certain attitudes and so on. And as the brain is the most important factor in our life, can that brain change itself completely? That is a central question. We are thinking together, you are not listening to me. We are like two friends talking together. There is nobody else but two friends and I hope we are like that in this gathering. You and I are sitting quietly in a comfortable chair, or uncomfortable, or walking along in a wood and talking over this seriously. That is, can the brain, which is evolved through time, has set a pattern for itself, a movement in which it has grown gradually from the most primitive, most backward, to an extraordinary brain that we have now. And that brain has lived always in this pattern – you understand my question? – of fear, greed, violence, brutality, never being satisfied, pursuit of sex, pleasure, etc. That is our brain. Can that brain transform itself? You understand my question? Because the brain is the most important thing in our life. The brain, then the heart, physical heart and all the nervous responses which the brain controls, holds and so on. Can that thing transform itself? That is what we are going to enquire together during all these four talks, if you have the energy and the patience and the desire to discover for yourself.	因此我們必須要問為什麼我們的心智和真心我們的頭腦也就是整個人類的頭腦因為你的頭腦不是你的這個頭腦經過幾千年的演化這個頭腦遵循著某一條道路某一個路線和態度等頭腦是我們生活中最重要的因素那個頭腦能夠徹底自我改變嗎？這是一個核心問題我們在一起思考你們不是在聽我講話我們像兩個朋友談話一樣這裡只有兩個朋友，沒有別人希望這個聚會這樣進行你和我安靜地坐在舒服的椅子上或一起在樹林裡散步認真地討論這個問題也就是說，頭腦… 經過時間的演化已經為自己定出一套模式讓它在這個活動裡逐漸成長從最原始最…落後的狀態演化到現在這個神奇的頭腦那個頭腦始終活在這個模式裡了解我的問題嗎？恐懼、貪婪、暴力殘酷的模式永遠不會滿足追求性和享樂等諸如此類的事物這就是我們的頭腦那個頭腦能自我轉化嗎？了解我的問題嗎？因為頭腦是生活中最重要的東西頭腦和心臟，器官的心臟還有頭腦控制的神經反應以及調控等那個東西能自我轉化嗎？這就是我們要一起參究的問題在這四場的演說裡如果你們有體力和耐心的話以及想親自發現的欲望
17:36	One of the factors of this brain and mind is that it is controlled by desire. Right? Desire with its will, will is the essence of desire. And we are always trying to become something; like the clerk trying to become the manager, the bishop becoming archbishop and the cardinal and ultimately the pope, and the disciple trying to become like the master. So this constant movement to become something. And if we don’t become something then we vegetate. So that is one of the factors which we have to go into: whether there is any becoming at all. And this becoming is the urge of desire, the battle of discontent. It is good to be discontented with everything around one, including with the speaker: to doubt. And in the Christian world doubt is an anathema, you are tortured for it, if you doubt. But in the Eastern world, like Buddhism and Hinduism, doubt is one of the major factors of life. You must doubt because doubt purges the mind. Doubt your own experiences, your own gurus, your own activities, why you put on these strange clothes. So doubt not only experience, doubt the nature of desire, why one is caught in this. Because we are trying to find out whether it is possible to transform the mind, not through more knowledge, not through more experience. Knowledge is always incomplete, and experiences are always incomplete naturally.	頭腦和心智的特徵之一就是它是被欲望控制的對嗎？欲望和它的意志意志是欲望的本質我們始終都想變成什麼一個辦事員想變成經理主教想變成大主教大主教想變成紅衣主教最後變成教宗門徒想變成大師這種想變成什麼的持續活動如果不變成什麼我們就會像木石一樣這就是我們要探討的因素之一無論有沒有變成任何東西這種變成就是欲望的驅力不知足的戰鬥不知足是一件好事對身邊的每一件事不知足包括說者在內懷疑他在基督教的世界裡懷疑要受到詛咒懷疑的人會受到折磨但在東方世界比如佛教和印度教懷疑是生命的重要因素之一你必須要懷疑因為懷疑淨化心智懷疑你自己的經驗你自己的上師、自己的活動你為什麼要穿這些奇裝異服因此…不僅要懷疑經驗懷疑欲望的本質人為什麼會困在其中因為我們試圖找出來可不可能轉化心智？不是透過更多的知識不是透過更多的經驗知識始終是不完整的經驗自然也是不完整的
21:26	So we are trying to find out, investigate together – I am not investigating and you are just merely listening. It is our responsibility together to go into this as deeply as possible. And when you leave the tent this morning, if you are at all serious, to discover for oneself that it is not only possible, it actually can take place. This is not a hope, an idea, a concept, an illusion, an illusion that is satisfying, but to discover for oneself without any persuasion, without any reward, without any punishment, without any direction, which means without any motive – you are following all this? – without any motive, to discover whether it is possible to totally transform the brain and its activities. Its activity is the movement of thought, and its physical neurological responses and sensations and so on.	我們試圖找出來，一起探究不只是我探究，你們聆聽我們有責任一起盡可能地深入這個問題當你上午離開帳篷時如果你以認真的心態親自探索這不僅可能，也會實際發生這不是一個希望、觀念概念，也不是幻覺一個能滿足你的幻覺而是親自探索不需要任何說服、獎賞不需要任何懲罰、指導也意味著不需要任何動機明白嗎？不需要任何動機探索有無可能完全轉化頭腦和它的活動頭腦的活動就是思想的運動還有它生理上的神經反應和覺受等
23:08	When this question is understood, that we are together investigating, and one of the factors of this investigation is that the movement of desire is constantly not only changing but trying to move, trying to become something more and more. Right? It is not what I am saying. It is so. If you go into it you will see it for yourself. So one has to ask why and what is the nature of desire. Why man always, from the very beginning of time, is caught in this thing? And so the pattern has been set to become something, which we are all trying to do all the time. ‘I am not so good as I was but I will be’. Or ‘I will get over my anger’ – jealousy, or envy, or whatever it is, which is the constant movement in time to be something. Right? We are together in this, up to now?	當我們了解一起探究的問題後這種探究的因素之一就是欲望的活動不只是持續地改變而且會試著活動… 試圖變成一個更多、更大的東西對嗎？不是因為我這麼說本來就是如此如果你深入，就會親自看見因此我們要問為什麼以及欲望的本質是什麼人為什麼從有史以來就困在這個東西裡面？想變成什麼的模式已經固定了這就是我們始終在做的事我不像以前那麼好不過我以後會變好或我會克服忿怒、嫉妒羨慕或諸如此類的東西也就是不斷地在時間裡移動想要變成什麼對嗎？我們有在一起思考嗎到目前為止？
24:55	And it has been one of the factors in life that those so-called religious people, the saints who are peculiar people anyhow, the so-called monks, and the real sannyasis in India, not the phoney ones who walk around in strange clothes, the real ones, have always said desire is one of the most destructive factors in life, therefore suppress it, avoid it, go beyond it. And therefore to go beyond it exercise will, control, suppression, but the thing is boiling inside. You may sit quietly in a monastery, or on a hill, or in a wood, or on a bench in this garden, but the thing is burning. So one has to understand its nature, not pervert it, not suppress it, not destroy it, but understand it. One can understand it either verbally, or actually. Verbal understanding has very little meaning. We can go into it step by step, look at it, without analysing just look at it as it moves. Then one begins to have an insight into the whole problem of desire. I am going to go into the question of insight presently. Because as desire is such a violent process – controlled, shaped, but tremendous vitality it has. And it is one of the driving factors in our life, and to merely suppress it, it becomes too childish.	生命中還有一個因素那些所謂的宗教人士那些聖者…反正都是一些怪人那些所謂的僧侶以及印度真正的出家人不是那些奇裝異服的冒牌貨是真正的出家人都說欲望是生命中最有破壞力的因素之一因此我們要壓抑它避免它、超越它想超越它，就要運用意志力控制、壓抑但那個東西卻在裡面沸騰你也許安靜地坐在寺廟山丘或樹林裡或這個花園裡的凳子上但那個東西卻在燃燒因此我們必須了解它的本質不是扭曲它不是壓抑，不是…摧毀它而是要了解它你可以在言說上了解或實際地了解言說的了解沒有多大意義我們可以一步步地深入它注視它不加以分析只是注視它的活動接著你就會洞見整個欲望的問題我現在要深入洞見這個問題因為欲望是一個強大的暴力過程雖然被我們控制和塑造但卻擁有龐大的活力也是生命的驅動力之一只是壓抑它未免太幼稚了
27:41	So one has to patiently go into it, observe it, and see where discipline comes into this. You understand? You are following this? We will go into it. Desire has significance and vitality only when thought creates the image. Right? The seeing of the blue shirt, or the blue dress in the window, and creating the image of oneself in that shirt or in that dress, that is the beginning of desire. You understand what I am saying? Right? Do we meet each other? That is, seeing, contact, sensation, if it stopped there, it is natural. Otherwise, if one is not sensitive you can’t perceive the thing clearly, if your touch is not sensitive. Then seeing, contact, sensation. Then begins thought creating the image: you in that shirt, or in that dress, or in that hat, or in that car. Then desire arises. So the image created by thought is the movement of desire, not seeing, contact, sensation, that’s natural, healthy. You are following all this?	因此我們必須耐心地深入它、觀察它看見紀律…在其中扮演什麼角色，明白嗎？你們聽懂了嗎？我們會深入它只有當思想創造意象的時候欲望才會有意義和生命力對嗎？在櫥窗裡看見一件藍襯衫或洋裝就創造出自己穿著那套衣服的意象這就是欲望的開始明白我說什麼嗎？對嗎？我們有交會嗎？也就是看見、接觸、覺受如果到此為止，這是自然的事否則，如果你不夠敏銳就無法清楚地感知事物觸覺就不夠敏銳視覺、觸覺、受覺接著思想就開始創造你穿了那件襯衫的意象或那件洋裝、帽子或車子接著欲望就生起了因此，由思想創造出來的意象就是欲望的活動不是視覺、觸覺和受覺這些是自然的、健康的明白這些嗎？
30:05	So discipline as we generally practise is control, accepting the authority of a pattern, obedience, and so on – conformity essentially. Whereas discipline has a totally different meaning, which is to learn. It comes – naturally we all know English – it comes from the word ‘disciple’, to learn. Disciple is one who is learning, not from a master, from a superstitious guru, but to learn means to observe – to observe the movement of seeing, contact, sensation, then thought creating the image and the flowering of desire. To see how desire arises requires very close observation. Right? That observation has its own discipline. The observation is the learning. I wonder if you catch what I am saying. Right? Can we go on?	我們一般修習的紀律就是…控制接受模式的權威服從等，主要的是順服紀律(discipline)還有一個完全不同的意義也就是學習學習是自然發生的我們都懂英語學習來自英文的 disciple學習的意思學徒並不是指跟著師父學習的人跟著一個迷信的上師學習學習意味著…學習意味著觀察觀察視覺、觸覺和受覺的活動接著思想就創造欲望的意象以及欲望的綻放想看見欲望生起的過程須要非常仔細的觀察對嗎？那個觀察有它自己的紀律所以觀察就是學習不知你們懂不懂對嗎？可以繼續講嗎？
31:50	Thank god! Somebody says yes.	感謝上帝，總算有人說可以了
32:00	So as we said, discipline means to learn, not to conform, not to imitate. And one can learn through observation in which there is no compulsion, no comparison, because learning is taking place all the time as it is moving. Therefore there is no sense ‘I am learning more’. I wonder if you see that. So we can see now that learning the movement of desire and from that you see that the moment thought arrives with its image desire flowers. And to give an interval, a long interval between seeing, contact, sensation and thought bringing with its image, to postpone the image. You understand? To postpone the image is the learning. Right? Are we following? Right? Good.	我們說過，紀律意味著學習不是順從，也不是模仿我們可以透過觀察來學習其中沒有強迫沒有比較因為…學習始終在活動中發生因此並沒有一個我在學習更多東西的感覺不知你們明白沒有我們現在明白了學習看見欲望的活動從這裡就可以看到每當思想伴隨著意象而來的時候欲望就會綻放要拉開一個間隔介於視覺、觸覺和受覺之間的長間隔思想伴隨著意象而來延遲這個意象，明白嗎？延遲這個意象就是學習對嗎？聽懂了嗎？好
33:45	And will is part of that desire. So desire is the movement of time. Not the physical time but the time that – ‘I will have that shirt’. So, in enquiring into desire one begins to understand the movement of becoming. That is, is there duality at all? You understand my question? Please, it is related to what we are talking about, it is not something irrelevant, it is related directly to desire. That is, we live in opposites. I am angry – I should not be angry. The fact is I am angry. The non-fact is ‘I should be’. And this is part of our becoming. I wonder if you follow all this. You are following? It is rather fun if you can go into this, not as an intellectual game but a human game, it is much more serious than an intellectual game. We are dealing with humanity, with ourselves, who are humanity. And we are asking whether this mind, this brain can totally transform itself so that it is something entirely different. We say it can be done, it is possible. And we are doing it now if you observe it slowly, carefully. That is we have followed the pattern of desire and the conflict between the opposites – ‘I am’, ‘I should be’. The fact is only what I am, not what I should be. What ‘I should be’ is the invention of thought in order to avoid ‘what is’. I wonder if you follow all this? And the understanding of ‘what is’ is the learning of it, not how to transform it – you are getting all this? Not to transform it, to learn about it. In the very learning about it is the dissolution of it, is its radical change.	意志就是那個欲望的一部分欲望是時間的活動，對嗎？不是物理時間，而是那種… 我將會得到那件襯衫的時間在探究欲望的同時你就開始了解想變成什麼的活動，對嗎？也就是說這其中有二元對立嗎？了解我的問題嗎？請注意聽這與我們在說的事有關不是一個毫無關係的事與欲望有直接的關係也就是說，我們活在對立裡我生氣對立於我不應該生氣事實是我生氣了，對嗎？「我應該」不是事實這就是想變成的一部分不知你們了不了解了解嗎？如果你深入的話這是相當有趣的事這不是一場知性的遊戲而是人性的遊戲比知性的遊戲嚴肅多了我們在對治人類的問題我們就是人類我們問的是，這個心智或頭腦是否能完全轉化自己變成一個截然不同的東西我們說它可以，有此可能我們現在就在做如果你慢慢地、仔細地觀察也就是觀察自己遵循欲望的模式以及對立之間的衝突我是與我應該是事實是我是，不是我應該是「我應該是」是思想的發明物為了逃避本來如是不知你們明白沒有了解本來如是就是學習不是如何轉化它，你們明白嗎？不是轉化它，是學習它學習本身就是對立的化解它本身…是基進的改變對嗎？
37:19	So we say it is possible and if one has this insight into the whole nature of desire, insight, then that very insight – I have discussed this with certain scientists, they agree to this, so you may perhaps also agree to it, but don’t agree because scientists agree, but see for oneself the fact. That is, when one has an insight into this movement of desire and becoming, and the conflict of the opposites, which is part of desire, when one has this insight the very brain cells themselves are changed. Don’t accept this because I am saying, the speaker is saying it but you can see it for yourself. So we have to enquire into what is insight. Are you all ready? Shall we go on?	所以我們說它有可能如果你能洞見欲望的整個本質洞見那麼這個洞見本身我跟幾位科學家討論過他們都同意或許你們也會同意但不要因為科學家同意才同意而是要親自看清事實也就是說，當你能洞見欲望和變成的活動以及欲望一部分的對立衝突時當你有這種洞見時腦細胞本身就改變了不要因為我這麼說就接受因為說者這麼說而是當你親自看見的時候因此我們必須探究洞見是什麼你們準備好了嗎？可以開始了嗎？
38:45	You see, we are always functioning with knowledge. Right? Knowledge that one has accumulated through education, mathematics, geography, history, that knowledge in order to survive in this world, to get a job and so on, but also we are functioning with our psychological knowledge, the accumulation that one has gathered through thirty years, forty years, or past generations, inherited genetically. So there it is. We are always functioning with knowledge, skilfully or not skilfully. Right? And knowledge, as we said yesterday, is always limited, is always within the shadow of ignorance. There can never be complete knowledge but there can be an ending to knowledge. I wonder if you see the difference. I am going to show you presently.	我們始終都用知識來運作對嗎？透過教育累積下來的知識數學、地理、歷史為了在這個世界生存求職等的知識我們也用心理知識運作累積三、四十年收集來的知識或來自世代祖先的遺傳這就是知識我們始終用知識來運作無論運作的技術好或不好對嗎？正如我們昨天說過的知識始終是有侷限的始終存在於無知的陰影之下永遠不會有完整的知識但知識有終結的時候了解其中的差別嗎？我現在就要指出來
40:06	So, knowledge is the movement of time, of experience and that movement is thought. So that is the instrument with which we act. That is the instrument with which we analyse and come to a conclusion and then say that conclusion is right because we have logically explained it, it has been proved and so on, it is acceptable, reasonable, sane, based on thought, which is always limited naturally. You follow this? Please follow this a little bit with attention if you don’t mind. That is the field in which we operate all the time, waking and sleeping. And with that knowledge we try to resolve the psychological problems, like desire, for example. And when you examine it, analyse it, which is the movement of thought, that analysis can never dissolve the desire. It can modify it, it can be controlled, it can be given a different direction – instead of clothes and cars it can go towards God. But it is the same movement. God – you know, God.	知識是時間和經驗的活動那個活動就是思想因此思想就是我們行動的工具我們用來分析用來做結論的工具然後說那個結論是對的因為我們做過邏輯的解釋也經過證明等因此是可接受的、合理的理性的建立在思想上那個自然且始終都有侷限的思想明白嗎？不介意的話希望你們多用點注意力這就是我們運作其中的場域從早到晚，從睡到醒我們用那個知識試圖解決心理問題例如，欲望當我們檢視、分析欲望時也就是思想的活動分析永遠無法化解欲望它可以修飾、控制欲望給它一個不同的方向把對衣服和汽車的欲望轉為對上帝的欲望但還是同樣的活動，對嗎？上帝，你們都知道上帝
42:06	So we are asking: what is insight then? We are saying insight can only take place when knowledge has come to an end and merely pure observation, without any direction – you understand? Then you comprehend the whole movement of desire. When you say, ‘I have an insight into the technological problem’ – an engineer, or an electrician, or a computer expert, he has sudden insight. That insight is not the result of constant examination, constant analysis, investigating day after day, it is sudden cessation of all knowledge and seeing something directly. I wonder if you follow this. I hope you are doing this as we are talking together. That insight brings about a fundamental change in the very brain cells themselves which carry memory. No, I won’t ask you if this is right because it is. If you go into it and do it for yourself you will find out. As we said, doubt, not accept. Doubt what we are saying but if you keep on doubting, it leads nowhere. But you must doubt and yet at moments they must be let go, like a dog on a leash.	所以我們要問洞見究竟是什麼？我們要說的是只有當思想終結的時候洞見才會發生只有純粹的觀察沒有任何方向的觀察，明白嗎？這時候你就會理解欲望的整個活動當你說，我對科技問題有洞見一個工程、電氣或電腦專家會有突如其來的洞見那種洞見不是持續檢視的結果不斷分析、日以繼夜地探究而是所有知識的嘎然而止直觀一個事物不知你們了解沒有希望你們在一起談話時就在這麼做那個洞見會帶來…根本的改變改變攜帶記憶的腦細胞本身對嗎？我不會問你們對或不對因為它是對的如果你深入，也親自這麼做你就會發現我們說過，要懷疑，不要接受懷疑我們說的話但如果你沒完沒了地懷疑也不會有任何進展你必須在懷疑的同時也放下就像一隻綁了繩子的狗
44:19	So in the same manner, one of our factors in life is relationship. Life is relationship, whether one lives in a monastery or an ordinary life, life is a movement in relationship. In that relationship there is constant struggle – man, woman, you know, the whole business. And apparently we have never been able to solve it, which, again is a factor. Right? So many thousands of divorces, moving from one man to another man, another woman, you follow – trying to find some kind of satisfaction, fulfilment, all that business. And that is what we call relationship. And the older we grow the more dependent we are on relationship. And in that relationship there is always you and me – the two separate entities trying to be related. You understand the absurdity of this? Which means why is there this division? May we go on? Are we following each other? I am sure this will interest you. The other you think is all nonsense, or is too idealistic and illusory but this I hope will interest you. A strange world, isn’t it? We are only interested in something that is very near to us, something that is biting us. But we are not interested in the global thing, in the whole human existence, so we reduce all this enormous life, with all its complexities into a little thing – me and my struggle, me and my fulfilment, me and my becoming something. This is what we are concerned with. And the tragedy is you will never solve this unless you have understood the wholeness of life and the beauty, the greatness, the sublimity of the wholeness, which is that you are the entire humanity. You understand this? You will leave the tent and go back to your little backyard. Fortunately at Brockwood the backyard is very large.	同樣地生活中的一個元素是…關係生活就是關係無論你住在寺院裡或過平常的生活生活就是關係裡的活動那個關係裡有不斷的鬥爭男人和女人的鬥爭你們知道這些事顯然我們沒有能力解決這是一個事實，對嗎？成千上萬的離婚事件離開一個，再找一個男人或女人明白嗎？想在轉換之中找到某種滿足感或實現感，諸如此類的東西這就是我們所謂的關係我們的年紀越大對關係的依賴就越大那個關係裡始終是你和我兩個分離的實體試圖建立關係了解其中的荒謬嗎？這意味著為什麼會有分裂？可以繼續講嗎？我們彼此有交會嗎？我確信你們會有興趣你的另一部分會認為這是胡扯或者認為太理想、太虛幻但我希望這個話題會引起你們的興趣這個世界很奇怪，對嗎？只有跟自己很切身的事我們才會有興趣與自身利害有關的事但對全球性的事務沒興趣整個人類的存在我們把這個宏大又複雜的生命化約成渺小的事物我和我的奮鬥我和我的實現我和我想變成的什麼這就是我們會關心的事它的悲劇就是你永遠解決不了問題除非你已經了解生命的整體性以及整體性的美、偉大和殊勝也就是說，你就是整個人類你們明白嗎？你們離開帳篷就會回到自家的小後院幸好布洛克伍德的後院都很大
48:51	As we said, one of the factors is relationship. We are always trying to find a way to be related to somebody so completely, in which there is no division – you and me. We try to find it through sex. And unfortunately, one of the philosophies in India is that through sex you can find that ultimate whatever it is. It is another of those nonsenses. It is very popular in India. And that is why all these followers go off to their gurus in India.	我們說過…關係是生活的元素之一我們始終想尋找與別人建立關係的方法一個完整無缺的沒有分裂的關係，沒有你和我我們試圖透過性來尋找不幸地是印度有一套性愛哲學主張透過性可以找到最終極的那個這也是一種胡言亂語這種哲學在印度很流行這也是為什麼一些追隨者會去印度找上師的原因
50:15	So we are trying to find out whether it is possible to live in this world, actually in this world of relationship with man, woman, between each other without any division – you understand? Is that possible? When all our education, all our culture, all our religions, everything is to divide, divide. Now together we are going to investigate this. And in this investigation you are taking part. You are sharing in it. It is not the speaker is investigating and you kind of agree or disagree and then go off, but together investigate it. What makes this division? apart from the superficial physical division, we are talking about psychological division, the inward sense of me and you, we and they. Why does this division exist? Is it actual? Is it something that we have been conditioned to, like the Arab and the Jew, and the Muslim and the Hindu, this division which has been created through culture and religion, which obviously is the result of thought and propaganda and all that business. Actually there is no division. If I live in India I am not an Indian or a Muslim, there is no division. Does the division exist because of the word? Follow it carefully, please, I am going slowly into this. Of the word – Englishman, Frenchman. Or is it the cultural division? Different, much more intellectual and all that in France, the sense of highly cultivated mind, and here there is a different culture, more buying and selling, which is part of America? Or, is it that each one has his own particular image – please follow this, observe it – each one has his own particular image of himself and the image about the other? You are following all this? Right? That is, two people living together intimately, are bound to create these images. I have lived with you and I inevitably, day after day, the monotony of it, the familiarity, the remembrances, the hurts, the flatteries, the encouragements – you know, all that is going on, that inevitably must create the image, right? So I create an image about you and you create an image about me. So this relationship is between the two images. Sorry to be so... And this is what we call relationship. Actual relationship doesn’t exist. I wonder if you are following all this.	我們想要找出來…有無可能活在這個世界裡確實活在有男女關係的世界裡在男女之間沒有任何分裂明白嗎？有這個可能嗎？當所有的教育、文化和宗教所有的事物都被分化、分化我們現在要一起探究你在參與…這個探究你在分享不是說者在探究你們表示同意或不同意然後就離開而是…一起探究是什麼造成這種分化的？除了表面的、身體上的分化我們談的是心理上的分化內在那個我和你我們和他們之間的分化這種分化為何會存在？它是實際的嗎？是一種制約下的產物嗎？就像阿拉伯人和猶太人回教徒和印度教徒這種透過文化和宗教創造的分化顯然是思想和宣傳的結果以及諸如此類的事實際上根本沒有分化如果我住在印度我不是印度教徒或回教徒那我就沒有分化分化是因為世界才存在嗎？仔細聽，因為我要慢慢深入這個世界的…英國人或法國人或者是文化上的分化？法國在知性上有較多的差異高度有教養的心智這裡卻有不同的文化交易性比較多的文化這是美國的一部分或是因為人各有不同的意象請注意聽、觀察它每個人各有特別的自我形象以及對他人的形象？對嗎？你們了解嗎？對嗎？也就是說，兩個人在一起過親密的生活必然會創造這種形象我跟你一起生活必然會因為日復一日生活的單調彼此的熟悉感記憶、傷害奉承、鼓勵你們知道那些發生的事必然會創造形象，對嗎？我創造你的形象你也創造我的形象因此，這變成兩個形象之間的關係說來令人遺憾而…這就是我們所謂的關係實際的關係並不存在不知你們明白沒有
55:13	So is it possible to live together without a single image? You understand my question? We say it is, of course it is. Otherwise there is no love, you follow? Then there is conflict. Division invariably brings conflict – British and French, and German. So can this image-making machinery stop? We are investigating together.	有可能沒有半點形象地生活在一起嗎？了解我的問題嗎？我們說可能，當然可能否則就不會有愛，沒有…明白嗎？接著就會有衝突分化必然帶來衝突英國、法國和德國這一部形象塑造機能停止嗎？我們在一起探究
56:08	Now, why does the mind, thought, create the image? You understand? You have an image about your husband, or your wife, girlfriend or whatever it is, why do you create an image? Is it because in the image there is security? Not in the person, right? I wonder if you see this. I am not being cynical, I am just pointing out facts. How stupid all this is, isn’t it?	心智或思想為何要創造意象？明白嗎？你對丈夫或妻子有一個形象或男女朋友之類的你為何要創造形象？是因為形象裡有安全感嗎？不是那個人，對嗎？不知你們懂不懂我不是憤世嫉俗我只是指出事實這實在太愚蠢了，對嗎？
56:59	Now can that image-making stop? Then there can be love. Two images having relationship and calling that love, you can see what it is – jealousy, anxiety, quarrels, irritations, bullying each other, possessing each other, dominating and so on, and that is called love. And we are asking: is it possible to end the building of these images? That is, why does the brain register? You understand? When it is not possible to register there is no image-making. You follow this? Is this becoming too intellectual? The speaker doesn’t like to play around with the intellect alone, it is stupid.	那個形象塑造可以停止嗎？那麼就會有愛兩個形象的關係就是他們所謂的愛你們可以看見它的實情嫉妒、焦慮、爭吵、厭煩互相霸凌、占有、支配等等這就叫做愛我們要問的是有可能終結形象的塑造嗎？也就是說頭腦為何要記錄？了解嗎？如果頭腦不可能記錄就不會有形象的塑造明白嗎？這麼說會太過知性嗎？說者不喜歡一個人玩知性遊戲愚蠢
58:20	So, why does the brain register any irritation – you understand? – any sense of anxiety within this relationship, jealousy and so on? Is it possible for the brain not to register? You’ve understood the question? How are you going to find out? You flatter me, or insult me, which has happened, both. And why should the brain register the insult, or the flattery? If one is called an idiot, immediately it is registered. The registration takes place only when you have an image about yourself. I wonder if you capture all this! This is insight, you understand? So that insight into the whole question of relationship which is based on images – those images are dissolved. Insight dissolves them, not argument, analysis and emotional reactions.	頭腦為什麼要記錄煩惱的事明白嗎？記錄關係裡的焦慮、嫉妒等？頭腦有可能不記錄嗎？了解這個問題嗎？你要如何找出答案？你恭維我…或羞辱我這兩種情況都會發生頭腦為什麼要記錄那個羞辱或恭維？一個人被罵白痴頭腦馬上記錄下來這種記錄之所以會發生只有當你有自我形象的時候不知你們懂了沒有這就是洞見，明白嗎？對整個關係問題的洞見建立在形象上的關係那些形象就會化解洞見會化解它們不是論辯、分析或情緒反應
1:00:07	Have you in talking over together, going into this, have you dissolved it? Otherwise there is no point attending these talks. This is very serious. And as we said this is one of our factors in life – relationship, which is based on fear, etc., jealousy. Now when one sees the whole of that and the insight that transforms the whole movement of that, the energy of all that, then there is a possibility of having an actual relationship with another. There is no you going off to your office, working yourself step by step in ambition and coming home and being docile and loving and all that business, which has no meaning. You understand all this?	你們經過一起談話一起探究以後，有化解嗎？否則來參加這場談話就毫無意義了這是非常嚴肅的事我們說過，關係是生命的因素之一它是建立在恐懼、嫉妒等的基礎上當我們看見它的整體看到洞見轉化它的整個活動它的整個能量那就有可能和別人建立實際的關係沒有一個去上班的你一步一步地在野心的驅使下努力回家一副溫馴、充滿愛諸如此類毫無意義的樣子了解嗎？
1:01:25	We have spoken for an hour, shall we go on?	已經說一個小時了，要繼續嗎？
1:01:29	Audience: Yes.	要！
1:01:34	K: All right. The meaning of all these gatherings – and we have had it for sixty years, I have had it – either you play with all this and come back next year and say, ‘Let’s play the same game again’, or talking over together seriously as we are doing now, you see for yourself the depth of your own perception, into yourself, unaided by another. You see it in yourself the whole movement of desire and relationship. And when you have an insight into that your life is transformed vastly. But that requires attention – not in this tent when you are listening to the speaker. Attention, not concentration but attention in your life. When you’re sitting in front of your husband at the breakfast table, he with a newspaper and you cooking the egg, or whatever you are doing, watch it. You understand? Actually the terrible reality of no relationship, except sex and all that, but actually there is none. So, by your own action you are living a solitary, an isolated life. You understand what I am saying? How can an isolated entity love? And love is relationship, not the thing that we call love now, which is a torture. But that sense of having no division, which means you with your ambitions, with your greeds, with your envies, with your anxieties, and he with his, how can these two ambitions meet? They can never. So when you see the whole pattern of this, and the seeing is the discipline, you understand? Pure learning. And when once that learning has taken place, which is insight, the thing – the image-making machinery comes totally to an end. Totally. So that life is then something entirely different.	好吧這些聚會的意義我們舉辦六十年了我已經受夠了一則是你當遊戲來玩明年再來說讓我們再來玩一場遊戲或者像現在一樣在一起認真地討論你親自看見知覺的深度深入你自己沒有別人的協助在自己的內在看見欲望和關係的整個活動當你有了一次洞見以後生命就會發生巨大的轉化但這需要關注不是坐在這個帳篷裡聽說者講話關注，不是專注而是對生命的關注當你和丈夫一起吃早餐時他看著報紙你在煎蛋或做其他的事觀察明白嗎？這個毫無關係可言的恐怖現實除了性之類的事以外實際上毫無關係可言你的行為使你活在孤獨孤立的生活裡了解我在說什麼嗎？一個孤立的實體如何愛？愛就是一種關係不是我們現在所說的愛那是一種…折磨而是那種沒有分化的愛這意味著你和你的野心你的貪婪、嫉妒和焦慮他也有他的這兩個野心如何交會？永遠不會當你看見這整個模式以後看見就是紀律，明白嗎？純粹的學習當那種學習，也就是洞見發生的時候形象塑造機就會完全停止完全停止然後，生命就會截然不同
1:05:42	I don’t know if we have time to go further into this question of becoming. This is it: desire, relationship. In both is to become. That is what our whole way of life is, to become something. You have heard relationship, and the division exists as long as there is that image. Now the natural response would be, ‘How am I to get rid of the image?’ – which is to become something else. You understand? Not the understanding of the nature of images, who builds it, learn about it.	不知道有沒有時間深入這個想變成什麼的問題這就是欲望和關係兩者都是變成我們整個生活方式就是如此想要變成什麼你們聽過關係和分化只要有形象就會存在我們自然的反應就是我該如何擺脫那個形象？也就是想變成別的什麼明白嗎？不是了解形象的本質誰建立的，了解它
1:06:50	And the other factor in our life is pleasure. And this pleasure is the most isolating factor – sorry. Do you want to go into it? Have we time for that? You see, our life is a constant movement in isolation. That is a fact. Each one of us is so occupied with himself, with his ambitions, with his lack of fulfilment, with his progress – you know? The self-centred activity is isolating. Building a wall around yourself and then stretching your hand over the wall to another. And is it possible to live in this world without this movement? Please, this is a very serious question. We are always seeking fulfilment, or being… wanting, dissatisfied. You know, discontent is good. We are too satisfied with most things, as we are. We accept our politicians, our preachers, our authorities – and I hope you haven’t got any gurus, if you have, you accept them and their foolishness and so on. We are so easily satisfied and smother this flame of discontent. Right? Discontent is a factor. The more it burns the clearer the mind becomes. But we are so easily satisfied, gratified. And one asks: can there be an end to all discontent? Because part of this discontent is fear. And why is one discontent? This longing for something which we haven’t got – right? – longing for some happy relationship where you can have some peace of mind. That is, where there is discontent there is always the search for content. You understand all this? Move, please, let’s move together.	生活的另一個元素是享樂享樂是最具孤立性的因素，抱歉想深究嗎？還有時間嗎？我們的生活就是在孤立中持續的活動這是事實每個人都如此執迷於自己執迷於自己的野心和缺乏實現感他的進步…你們知道那種自我中心的活動就是孤立在自己身邊築一道圍牆再把手伸到牆外，想觸及別人有可能沒有這種活動活在這個世界裡嗎？請注意聽這是個非常嚴肅的問題我們始終在追尋實現感或處於… 欲求不滿足知道嗎？不滿足是一件好事我們太滿足於大多數的事物了我們接受政客傳道士或…權威希望你們沒有上師如果有，你們也會接受還有他們的愚蠢等等我們太輕易地滿足和壓抑不滿足的火燄對嗎？不滿足是一個因素它燃燒得越多心靈就會變得越清明但我們太容易滿足於現狀了我們要問的是這種不滿足有結束的一天嗎？因為不滿足的一部分是恐懼人為什麼會不滿足？這種對獲得某個事物的渴望對嗎？渴望某種快樂的關係讓你能獲得心靈的平靜換言之，有不滿足的地方永遠有對滿足的追尋了解嗎？前進拜託，讓我們一起前進
1:11:15	Can there be discontent by itself? Or is it always associated with something? I am dissatisfied with my house, with my wife, with my job, with my looks, with my hair, with god knows what else. Is discontent born out of comparison? Why do we compare? I know it is said through comparison there is progress and all the rest of it. But the idea of comparison. You only compare with something that you haven’t got. Right? I wonder if you follow. And this comparison is always a battle, a struggle and part of this discontent is comparison. When there is no comparison whatsoever psychologically, or even physically, is there discontent? What is discontent in itself, per se? Is there such a thing as being discontent in itself? Or always with regard to something? You are following my question? Unless we understand this, we will not discover the nature of fear and the ending of fear. But we have to understand this too. All this commercialism is comparison, more, more, more, which is different from need and so on – we won’t go into all that.	不滿足會單獨存在嗎？或者不滿足始終與某個事物有關？我對房子、妻子和工作不滿足我的外貌、頭髮和上帝才知道的一些事不滿足來自比較嗎？我們為什麼要比較？我知道有人說過有比較才有進步之類的話但比較這個觀念你只會與自己沒有的東西做比較對嗎？你們明白嗎？這種比較始終都是戰鬥和鬥爭不滿足的一部分就是比較當比較不存在的時候無論是心理上的比較甚至身體上的比較還會有這種不滿足嗎？不滿足本身究竟是什麼？有一種本身就是不滿足的東西嗎？或者不滿足始終與別的事物有關？懂我的問題嗎？除非我們了解這一點不僅無法揭露恐懼的本質以及恐懼的終結我們也得了解這一點商業主義就是比較更多、更多、更多這與需求不同，我們不詳談這些
1:13:56	So can the mind be free of all comparison, not only physically, how you look compared to another, you know all that business, it is really commercialism. Also to end comparison with the image you have built so that you are comparing yourself with the image that you have. Can you end all that so that there is never a sense of discontent? Which doesn’t mean you are satisfied, which is the opposite. But the understanding, the learning about discontent. It is a flame, it is something that you must have but if it is not understood it destroys everything. And in that also is the question of fear.	因此，心智…能擺脫所有的比較嗎？不只是身體上的你的外貌如何跟別人比較諸如此類的事其實都是商業主義同時也要終結你所建立的形象好讓你與自己的形象做比較你能終結這一切嗎？進而沒有絲毫的不滿足感這並不意味著你滿足了正好相反而是明白和了解不滿足它是一把你必須擁有的火燄但如果你不了解它它就會摧毀一切其中也存在恐懼的問題
1:15:34	Now it is a quarter to one, we better stop today. We will deal with it tomorrow. Not tomorrow, next Saturday and Sunday. SUBTITLE TEXT COPYRIGHT 1980 KRISHNAMURTI FOUNDATION TRUST LTD	一點十五分了我們最好到此為止明天再繼續談不是明天是下個星期…六和星期日字幕版權所有1980克里希那穆提基金會