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BR83CB1 - 是否存未被思想染指的行动？
与大卫•博姆的第一次对话
英国布洛克伍德公园
1983年6月11日



0:16 Krishnamurti: I thought we were going to talk about the future of man. David Bohm: Yes. K：我以为我们会谈论人的未来。

D：是。
0:38 K: Really, when we talk about man we are talking about humanity.

DB: The whole of mankind, yes. 		K：我的意思是，实际上，当我们在谈论人的时侯 我们是在谈论人类。

D：全人类。

K：整个人类。
0:44 K: Not the British or the French or the Russian or the American, but the whole of human beings. 不是英国或法国，或俄罗斯，或美国， 而是整个人类。
0:52 DB: The future is interlinked now, anyway. D：无论如何，我们的未来已是相互联系了。

K：是的。
0:57 K: As things are, from what one observes, the world has become tremendously dangerous. K：看样子，在我的观察中， 世界已经变得非常危险。
1:07 DB: Yes. D：是。
1:12 K: Terrorists, wars, and the national divisions and racial divisions, some dictators who want to destroy the world, and so on. And also religiously, there is tremendous separation. K：恐怖分子，战争， 和国家分裂，种族分裂， 一些独裁者，想要毁灭这个世界，等等。 同时在宗教界，也有巨大的分隔。
1:29 DB: And I think there is the economic crisis and the ecological crisis. D：而我认为，我们有经济危机 和生态危机。
1:34 K: Yes, ecological and economic problems, problems have seem to be multiplying more and more. So, what is the future of man? What is the future of not only the present generation but the coming generation? K：是的，生态和经济问题， 问题似乎在不断地倍增。 那么，人类的未来会如何？ 不仅是这一代的未来， 也包括下一代的未来？
1:58 DB: Yes, the future looks very grim.

K: Very grim. If you were quite young and I was quite young, what would we do knowing all this, what would be our reaction, what would be our life, our way of earning livelihood and so on? 		D：是，未来看起来很糟糕。

K：十分糟糕。 如果你还很年轻，而我也很年轻， 知道了这一切，我们该怎么办呢？ 我们该如何去反应，该如何 去过活，如何去维持生计，等等？
2:27 DB: Well, I have often thought of that. For example, I have asked myself, would I go into science again, and I am not at all certain now, because science does not seem to be relevant to this crisis. D：是，好，我经常都想到这些。 例如，我问过自己，我该再去研究科学吗？

K：是的。

D：我现在完全不能肯定， 因为科学似乎不能解决这个危机。
2:42 K: No. On the contrary, they are helping. K：不，不能。相反的，它们在助长。
2:45 DB: It makes it worse. It might help but in fact it isn't. D：它使情况变得更糟。它们也许会有帮助，但实际上它不是，对不对？
2:50 K: So what would you do? I think I would stick to what I am doing. K：那么，你会怎么办？ 我想，我将继续维持现状。
2:56 DB: Well, that would be easy for you. D：好，那对你是很简单。

K：对我来说相当简单。
2:57 K: For me quite easy. D：但是还有几个问题，当然，
3:00 DB: But there are several problems, of course, I don't know if you want to discuss them. If a person is just starting out, he has to make a living, right? 我不知道你想不想讨论它们。 如果一个人刚刚起步，他必须维持生计，对吗？
3:07 K: Of course. K：当然。
3:10 DB: There are very few opportunities now, and most of these are in jobs which are very limited. D：现在只有很少的就业机会， 而这些大多是非常有限的职业。

K：有限的，而失业的浪潮打击世界各地。
3:19 K: And unemployment right throughout the world. I wonder what we would do, knowing that the future is grim, very depressing, dangerous, and so uncertain. Where would you begin? D：是。

K：我不知道我们会去做些什么， 在了解未来会很糟糕之后， 会很郁闷，充满危机，那么不确定。 你要从何开始呢？
3:46 DB: Well, I think one would have to stand back from all these particular problems of my own needs and the needs of the people around me. D：是，好，我想，一个人必须放下 所有本身需求的个别问题， 以及身旁亲友的需求问题。
3:58 K: Are you saying one should really forget oneself for the time being? K：你是说一个人应该切实去 暂时忘记自己吗？

D：是。
4:02 DB: Yes. K：即使我真的忘记了自己，
4:05 K: Even if I did forget myself, and when I look at this world in which I am going to live, and have some kind of career or a profession, and the unemployment, what would I do? This is a problem that I think most young people are facing. 当我看着这个我要在其中生活的世界， 拥有某种职业或行业， 和失业，我应该怎么办呢？ 这是一个，我想，大多数年轻人所面对的问题。
4:33 DB: Yes, it is clear. Well, have you something that you would suggest? Is there something you could suggest? D：是。很明显。 那么，你有什么建议吗？ 你有什么可以建议吗？
4:55 K: I don't think in terms of evolution. K：你看，我并不依照进化而思考。
4:59 DB: Yes, I understand that. That is the point that I was expecting we would discuss. I was expecting we would discuss that. D：是，我理解这一点。 这一点正是我希望我们会去讨论的。 我期待我们会讨论它。
5:05 K: Yes. I don't think there is psychological evolution at all. K：是的。我不认为 我们有任何心理上的进化。
5:10 DB: Yes. Now, we have discussed this quite often, so I think I understand to some extent what you mean. But I think the people who are new to this, or viewing this tape, are not going to understand. D：是。至今，我们已经讨论了很多遍， 所以我想我在一定程度上明白你的意思。 但是我认为新来的人，或者观看这录像的人， 不会明白。

K：是的，我们将讨论它。
5:22 K: Yes, we will discuss it, But I want to discuss this whole question, if you will. Why are we concerned about the future? Or only the whole future is now? 但我想讨论这个整体问题，如果你愿意。 为什么我们要去关注未来？ 难道只有整个未来是当下？
5:41 DB: Yes, in some sense the whole future is now, but we have to make that clear. This goes very much against the whole way of thinking, of the tradition of mankind that all of us have been exposed to. D：是，在某种意义上，整个未来就是当下， 但我们必须把它说清楚。 这样的想法非常颠覆整体的思维方式， 颠覆人类的传统，我们所有的一切。

K：是的，我知道。人类是依循
5:54 K: Mankind thinks in terms of evolution, continuance, and so on. 进化，延续，等等而思考的。
5:59 DB: Maybe we could approach it another way, that is, evolution seems in the present era to be the most natural way to think. So, I would like to ask you what objections do you have to thinking in terms of evolution? Could I explain a point: it has many meanings, this word 'evolution.' D：也许我们可以用另一种方式去探讨，就是， 在当今时代，进化似乎 是最自然的思考方式。 所以，我想问你对此有什么异议 对依循进化的思考方式有什么异议。 我能不能解释一点，它有许多含义，
6:17 K: Of course. We are talking psychologically. ‘进化’这个词。

K：当然，当然。 我们正在谈论心理。
6:23 DB: Yes. The first point is, let's dispose of physical evolution. D：是，现在，第一点是，让我们来讨论物理进化。
6:26 K: I mean, an acorn will grow into an oak. K：我的意思是，一个橡子将成长为一棵橡树。
6:31 DB: Also, the species have evolved. For example, from the plants to the animals and to man. D：同样的，物种也进化了： 例如，从植物到动物到人类。
6:37 K: Yes, we have taken a million years to be what we are. K：是的，我们经历了百万年才进化成现今的样子。
6:40 DB: You have no question that that has happened, right? D：你对这个进化过程没有异议，对吗？
6:43 K: No, that has happened.

DB: And it may continue to happen. 		K：没有，那已经发生了。

D：它可能还会继续发生。
6:46 K: Yes. That is evolution.

DB: Now, that is a valid process. 		K：是的。这是进化。

D：那么，这是一个有根据的进程。
6:50 K: Of course. That is a valid natural process. K：当然。这是一个有根据的自然过程。
6:52 DB: Yes. It takes place in time.

K: Yes. 		D：好。它在时间里进行。

K：对。
6:55 DB: And therefore, in that region the past, present, and future are important, right? D：而且，因此在这个范畴内，过去，现在和未来 是重要的，对不对？

K：对，很明显。
7:00 K: Yes, obviously. I don't know a certain language, I need time to learn it. 我不懂某种语言，我需要时间来学习它。
7:06 DB: Well, also it takes time to improve the brain. If the brain started out small with this, and then it got bigger and bigger, that took a million years. D：好，还需要时间来改善大脑 如果大脑从小开始， 然后它越来越大，这花了一万年。
7:14 K: Yes, and become much more complex, and so on. So, all that needs time. All that is movement in space and time. K：就变得更加复杂，等等。 因此，所有那些都需要时间。 所有那些都是在时间和空间的运动。
7:25 DB: Yes, so you will admit physical time and neurophysiological time. D：是，你承认物理时间及神经生理时间。
7:30 K: Neurophysiological time, absolutely. Of course, any sane man would. K：神经生理时间，绝对。 当然，任何有理智的人都会承认。
7:33 DB: Yes, but most people also admit psychological time, what we call mental time. D：是的，但大多数人还承认心理时间， 我们所说的精神时间。
7:39 K: Yes, that is what we are talking about. Whether there is such a thing as psychological tomorrow, psychological evolution.

DB: Or yesterday. 		K：是的，这就是我们所谈的... 是否有这样的心理明天， 心理进化。

D：或昨天。
7:50 DB: Now, at first sight I am afraid this will sound strange. It seems, I can remember yesterday, and there is tomorrow, I can anticipate, and it has happened many times, days have succeeded each other. So, I do have the experience of time, from yesterday to today to tomorrow. D：是，现在，初看时，我担心，这有点怪异。 看来，我能够记得昨天， 还有明天，我也可以预测。 而这已经发生很多次...

K：是的。

D：你知道，日复一日，继续着。 所以，我确有时间的经验， 从昨天到今天，到明天，对不对？
8:11 K: Of course. That is simple enough. K：当然，当然。这很简单。
8:14 DB: Now, what is it you are denying? D：这很简单。那么，你是在否定什么呢？
8:17 K: I deny that I will be something, become better. K：我否定我会有所成就，会变得更好。

D：那是说我可以改变，可以...
8:24 DB: Now, there are two ways of looking at that. One way is: will I intentionally become better because I am trying, or secondly: some people feel that evolution is a kind of natural inevitable process in which we are being swept along like in a current, and we are, perhaps becoming better or worse, or something is happening to us. 但现在，我们有两种方法去看它。 一种看法是：我能不能刻意地变得更好，因为我有去尝试？ 或者，第二看法，有些人认为进化是一种 自然而无可避免的过程，我们只能 随波逐流， 而我们，也许，会变得更好或更坏， 或某些事会发生在我们身上。
8:44 K: Psychologically. K：在心理上。

D：在心理上， 要花时间，
8:46 DB: Psychologically, which takes time, which may not be the result of my trying to become better. It may or may not be. Some people may think one way, some another. But are you denying also that there is a sort of natural psychological evolution as there was a natural biological evolution? 它可能不是我尝试去变得更好的结果。 它可能是也可能不是。 有些人可能这样想，另一些人却那样想。 但你是不是全然否定有一种自然的 心理进化，有如自然生物进化的心理进化？
9:03 K: I am denying that, yes. K：我否定这个，对。

D：好。
9:06 DB: Now, why do you deny it? D：现在，你为什么要否定它呢？
9:13 K: Because, first of all, what is the psyche? K：因为，首先，什么是心灵？
9:17 DB: Yes. D：是。
9:20 K: The me, the ego and so on, what is it? K：这个'我'，自我，等等，是什么呢？
9:23 DB: Yes, the word 'psyche' has many meanings. It may mean the mind, for example. Now, do you mean by that the ego is the same thing? D：对，‘心灵’这个词'有很多含义。 例如，它可能意味着心。 现在，你的意思是它和自我是同样的？
9:30 K: The ego. I am talking of the ego, the me. K：自我。我所说的是自我，'我’。
9:33 DB: Now, some people who are thinking of evolution are thinking there will be an evolution in which the me is transcended. That is, that it will rise to a higher level. D：是。现在，有些人，思考着进化的人，正在想， '将会有一个进化，把这个'我' 提升上去。' 也就是说，把它提升到一个更高的水平。
9:46 K: Yes, does transition need time? K：是的，那个过渡需要时间吗？
9:48 DB: A transcendence, a transition.

K: Yes. That is my whole question.

DB: Yes. So, there are two questions: one is, will the me ever improve? That is one argument. And another argument is: even if we suppose we want to get beyond the me, can that be done in time? 		D：一种超越，一种过渡。

K：是的，是的。 这是我的整个问题。

D：是。 所以，我有两个问题：一是， '我'会不会被提高？ 这是一个议题。 另一个议题是，即使我们假设 我们要去超越这个'我'，我们能在时间里完成它吗？
10:04 K: That cannot be done in time. K：那不能在时间里完成。
10:06 DB: Yes, now we have to make it clear why not. D：好，现在我们要了解为什么不能。
10:09 K: Yes, I will. We will go into it. What is the me? If the 'psyche' has such different meanings, the me is the whole movement which thought has brought about. K：是，我会。我们将会去讨论它。 什么是'我'？ 如果心灵有着不同的含义， 那'我'是指整体的运作 由念头引生出来。

D：好，现在，你为什么这样说呢？
10:32 DB: Why do you say that? K：'我'是意识，我的意识，
10:34 K: The me is the consciousness, my consciousness. The me is my name, form, and all the various experiences that I have had, remembrances, and so on. The whole structure of the me is put together by thought. '我'是我的名字，形体， 和我经历过的所有各种经验， 回忆，等等。 整个'我'的结构，是由念头组成的。
10:56 DB: Yes, well, that again would be something which some people might find it hard to accept. D：是，好，这又是一个 令一些人很难接受的说法。
11:02 K: Of course, we are discussing this. K：当然，当然。我们正在讨论这个问题。
11:04 DB: But I mean also to try to bring it out. Now, the first experience, the first feeling I have about the me is that the me is there independently and that the me is thinking. D：是的，但我的意思也是去尝试把它提出来。 现在，第一经验， 我对‘我’的第一感觉是 这个'我'是独立的，它有思考能力。
11:16 K: Is the me independent of my thinking? K：这个'我'不必依赖我的思考吗？
11:20 DB: Well, my own first feeling is the me is there independent of my thinking, and it is the me that is thinking. Like, I am here and I could move, I could move my arm or I could think or I could move my head. D：好，我自己的第一感觉是'我'不必依赖 我的思考。而且是这个'我'在思考，你看。

K：是的，是的。

D：就像我在这里，我可以移动， 我可以移动我的胳膊，我可以思考，或者我可以摆动我的头。
11:30 K: Yes. K：是的，是的。

D：现在，那是一种幻觉吗？
11:32 DB: Now, is that an illusion? K：不是。

D：为什么？
11:37 K: No.

DB: Why? 		K：因为这个'我'...
11:43 K: When I move my arm, there is the intention to grasp something, to take something, to put something. First, it is the movement of thought, and that makes the arm move, and so on. My contention is – and I am ready to accept it as false or true – that thought is the basis of all this. 当我移动我的手臂，同时也会生起意图 去抓，去拿，去放下某个东西， 这也是最先的，它是念头的运作， 这个运作使到手臂移动，等等。 我的论点是 - 而我愿意接受它的真伪 - 念头是这一切的基础。
12:16 DB: Yes. Your contention is that the whole sense of the me and what it is doing is coming out of thought. Now, what you mean by thought though, is not merely intellectual thought. D：是。你的论点是，这个'我'的整体 以及它的运作都是念头来的。 至于你所指的念头， 不仅是智力的思考吧。
12:26 K: No, of course not.

DB: But what more? 		K：不，不，当然不是。

D：那么还包括什么, 请问？
12:29 K: Thought is the movement of experience, knowledge, memory, and thought. It is this whole movement. K：念头是经验，知识的运作， 记忆和念头。这是整个的运动。
12:38 DB: It sounds to me as if you mean the movement of consciousness as a whole.

K: As a whole, that is right. 		D：我听起来，好像你的意思是指 整体意识的运作。

K：整体运作，没错。
12:48 DB: You are saying that that the movement is the me, right? D：而你也说，这个运作就是'我'，对不对？
12:52 K: The whole content of that consciousness is the me. That me is not different from my consciousness. K：意识的全部内容就是'我’。

D：是，好，我还有一些...

K：那个'我'与我的意识并无不同。

D：是的，好，有人会觉得，
13:07 DB: I think one could say that I am my consciousness, because if I am not conscious I am not here, right? 我认为我们可以说，我是我的意识， 因为如果我没有意识，我就不存在了，对不对？
13:13 K: Of course.

DB: Now, is consciousness nothing but, say, what you have just described, which includes thought, feeling, intention? 		K：当然。

D：现在， 就是说，意识仅仅是，你刚才所描述的， 包括念头，感受，意图而已？
13:22 K: Intention, aspirations.

DB: Memories. 		K：意图，愿望。

D：记忆。
13:24 K: Memories, beliefs, dogmas, the rituals that I perform, like the computer that is being programmed. K：记忆，信仰，教条，我所执行的仪式， 整个...像一个已被编程的电脑。

D：是。现在，这肯定是意识，大家都能够同意，
13:36 DB: That certainly is in consciousness, everybody would agree, but some people would feel, or many people would feel that there is more to it than that, that consciousness may go beyond that. 但有些人会觉得，或有很多人会觉得 应该不止这些而已。意识应该还概括更多。
13:45 K: Let's go into it. It is, the content of our consciousness makes up the consciousness – the content. K：让我们去探索它，让我们去探索它。 那是我们意识的内容 那个内容，组成了意识。
13:58 DB: Yes, I think that requires some understanding: the ordinary use of the word 'content' is quite different. If you say that the content of a glass is water, so the glass is one thing and the water is another. The glass contains the water, or the word 'content' would suggest that something contains it.

K: All right. Consciousness is made up of what it has remembered: beliefs, dogmas, rituals, the nationalities, fears, pleasures, sorrow. 		D：是的，我认为这需要多一些理解， 你看，‘内容’这个词在日常使用中有着不同的意思。 比如说，一个玻璃杯的内容是水，对不对？

K：是的。

D：那么，这个玻璃杯是一回事， 而水是另一回事。

K：不是。

D：玻璃杯装着水，或'内容'一词 表示它被装某个容器里，对不对？

K：好吧。意识是由它所记忆的一切 组成的，这包括：信念，教条，仪式， 民族国籍，恐惧，快乐，悲伤。
14:35 DB: If all that were absent, would there be no consciousness? D：是，现在，如果没有所有的记忆，会不会就有没有意识了？
14:42 K: Not as we know it. K：依我们所知，不会。
14:43 DB: But there would still be a kind of consciousness? D：那就仍然会有某种意识吗？
14:45 K: A totally different kind. K：一个全然不同的意识。
14:47 DB: Then I think you really mean to say that consciousness, as we know it, is made up... D：好，那我觉得你其实是说 意识，依我们所知，是虚构的。

K：我说过。

D：噢，是的。
14:51 K: I said that. Consciousness, as we know it, is all that. K：意识，依我们所知，就是那一切。
14:55 DB: As we generally know it.

K: Yes. And that is the result of multiple activities of thought. 		D：是，我们一般都知道这。

K：是的。 而这就是念头的 多种活动的结果。
15:08 K: Thought has put all this together which is my consciousness: the reactions, the responses, the memories, the remembrances, extraordinarily complex intricacies, subtleties. All that makes up consciousness. K：念头把所有这些组合起来，形成我的意识 - 我的反应，感应， 记忆，回忆 - 非常错综复杂，非常微妙。 这一切组成了意识。
15:36 DB: As we know it, right? D：依我们所知，对不对？

K：我已经说过了，依我们所知。
15:38 K: I have said that. As we know it. Whether that consciousness has a future? D：是。现在...

K：这意识是否有未来？
15:48 DB: Yes. Does it have a past? D：是。它是否有过去？
15:51 K: Of course, its remembrances. K：当然有。它的回忆。
15:53 DB: Why do you say it has no future then? D：是，回忆。那么你为何说它没有未来呢？
15:56 K: If it has a future it will be exactly the same kind of thing, moving. The same activities, same thoughts, modified, but the pattern will be repeated over and over again. K：如果它有未来，它就会是完全 相同的东西，向前移动。 同样的活动，同样的念头，同样的修改， 但这个模式会重复，一遍又一遍。

D：是。你是不是说，念头只能重复？
16:14 DB: Are you saying that thought can only repeat? K：是。
16:17 K: Yes.

DB: But there is a feeling that thought can develop new ideas, for example. 		D：但我有一种感觉，例如，觉得念头能开展新的想法。
16:23 K: But thought being limited, because knowledge is limited. If you admit that knowledge will always be limited. K：但念头是有限的，因为知识是有限的。 如果你承认这些知识总是有限的...
16:38 DB: Yes, well, that again might require some discussion. D：是，好，这一点又可能需要一些讨论。
16:42 K: Of course, we must discuss it. K：当然，我们必须讨论它。
16:45 DB: Now, why do you say knowledge is always limited? D：现在，你为什么说知识总是有限的？
16:48 K: Because you, as a scientist, you are experimenting, adding, searching, so you are adding, and after you some other person will add more. So knowledge, which is born of experience, is limited. K：因为你，作为一个科学家， 你是在试验，添加，搜索， 所以你是在添加， 在你之后，又会有别人去添加更多。 因此，源于经验的知识，是有限的。
17:10 DB: Yes, some people have said it isn't. They would hope to obtain perfect knowledge, or absolute knowledge of the laws of nature. D：是，有些人却说不是。 他们希望能获得完美的知识， 或自然法则的绝对知识。
17:20 K: The laws of nature is not the laws of the human being. K：大自然的法则不是人类的法律。
17:25 DB: Well, would you want to restrict the discussion to knowledge about the human being?

K: Of course, that is what we are talking about. 		D：好，那么你要不要把讨论的范围限制在 关于人类的的知识之内？

K：当然，这正是我们所谈论的一切。
17:31 DB: Even there you could question whether that knowledge of nature is possible, too. D：即便是这样，你还是能去质疑自然知识的 可能性。

K：当然。
17:34 K: We are talking about the future of man. 我们正在谈论人类的未来。
17:37 DB: All right, so we are saying that man cannot obtain unlimited knowledge of the psyche. Is that what you mean?

K: Yes, that is right. 		D：是，没错。所以我们说 人是不可能获得心灵的无限知识的。 难道你就是如此说吗？

K：是的，没错。
17:46 DB: There is always more that is unknown. D：总会有更多的未知。
17:48 K: Yes, there is more and more unknown. K：是的，有越来越多的未知。
17:54 K: So, if once we admit that knowledge is limited, then thought is limited. K：所以，一旦我们承认知识是有限的， 那么念头也是有限的。
18:00 DB: Yes, thought depends on knowledge, and the knowledge does not cover everything, therefore thought will not be able to handle everything that happens. D：是，念头是依靠知识而生起的， 而知识却不是包罗一切的。

K：没错。

D：所以念头将无法 处理所发生的每一件事。
18:12 K: That is what the politicians and all the other people are doing. They think thought can solve every problem. K：那是政客和所有其他人的所作所为。 他们以为念头可以解决一切问题。
18:19 DB: You can see in the case of politicians that knowledge is very limited, in fact it is almost non-existent! Therefore when you lack the adequate knowledge of what you are dealing with, you create confusion.

K: Yes. So then, as thought is limited, our consciousness, which has been put together by thought, is limited. 		D：是，你可以看那些政客的作为 他们的知识是非常有限的， 事实上，它几乎是不存在的！ 因此，当你缺乏适当的知识 去处理事情时，你会制造混乱。

K：是的。那么，因为念头是有限的， 我们的意识，由念头所组成，也是有限的。

D：是，现在为何这是意味着...你能把它说清楚吗？
18:53 DB: Can you make it clear? That means we can only repeat, stay in the same circle. One of the ideas might be, if you compare with science, that people might think though my knowledge is limited, I am constantly discovering. 这意味着我们只能重复，停留在同一个圆。

K：同一个圆。

D：其中一个观点是，如果你与科学相比， 人们可能会认为，'虽然我的知识是有限的， 我却能经常发现新事物。'
19:05 K: But what you discover is added to, but is still limited. K：但你的新发现被添加上去后， 它仍然是有限的。
19:13 DB: It is still limited. That is the point. I think one of the ideas behind a scientific approach is that, though knowledge is limited, I can discover and keep up with the actuality. D：它仍然有限。就因为这点，我可以继续下去。 我认为支撑科学方法的理念之一 就是，虽然知识是有限的， 我可以去发现并追上现实。
19:25 K: But that is also limited.

DB: My discoveries are limited. And there is always the unknown, which I have not discovered. 		K：但那也是有限的。

D：我的发现是有限的。 而且总有未知，我还没有发现的未知。
19:33 K: That is why I am saying, the unknown, the limitless, cannot be captured by thought. K：这就是为什么我说，那个未知，那个无限， 不能被念头捕获。
19:39 DB: Yes. D：是。
19:41 K: Because thought in itself is limited. If you and I agree to that, not only agree, but it is a fact. K：因为念头本身就是有限的。 如果你和我都同意这一点 - 不仅同意，而它就是事实。

D：是，好，也许我们应该把它说得更加清楚一些。
19:56 DB: Perhaps we should bring it out still more. That is, thought is limited even though one may easily verbally admit thought is not limited, there is a very strong predisposition. 念头是有限的，即使我们在口头上... 在口头上轻易地说念头不是有限的， 我们却有很强烈的倾向...
20:07 K: Feeling.

DB: A tendency to feel that way, that thought can do anything. 		K：感觉。

D：感觉，倾向去 那样地感觉，念头能做任何事情。
20:13 K: It can't. See what it has done in the world. K：任何事情。它不能。 看看它在世界上做了些什么。
20:16 DB: Well, I agree that it has done some terrible things, but that doesn't prove that it is always wrong. Maybe you could always blame it on the people who have used it wrongly. D：好，我同意，它已经做了一些可怕的事情， 但这并不能证明它始终是错误的。你看，那...

K：不，不。

D：或者你总是可以怪罪 人们，他们错用了念头。
20:25 K: I know, that is a good old trick! But thought in itself is limited, therefore whatever it does is limited. K：我知道，这是一个很好的老把戏！ 但是，念头本身就是有限的， 因此，无论它做什么都是有限的。
20:35 DB: Yes, and it is limited in a very serious way, is what you are saying. D：是，而它有限至非常严重的程度，这是你所说的。
20:40 K: That is right. Of course, in a very, very serious way. K：没错。当然，非常，非常严重的程度。
20:44 DB: Could we bring that out, say what that way is? D：我们要如何去说清楚，比如那个程度是什么？
20:46 K: That way is what is happening in the world. K：那个程度，就是现今世界的状况。
20:50 DB: All right. Let's look at that. D：好的。让我们看看这个。
20:51 K: The totalitarian ideals – it is the invention of thought. K：极权主义的理想 -这是念头的发明。
20:58 DB: We could say that the very word 'totalitarian' means they wanted to cover the totality, but they couldn't. They couldn't, the thing collapsed. D：是，好，我们可以说人们... '极权主义'一词是指他们想要统理整体， 但他们不能。

K：他们不能。

D：他们不能，理想崩溃了。
21:07 K: It is collapsing. K：它正在崩溃。

D：正在崩溃。
21:09 DB: But then there are those who say they are not totalitarians. D：那么现在， 有那些说他们不是极权主义的人。

K：而是民主主义者，以及所有其他称号，
21:14 K: The democrats, etc. The republicans and the democrats and the idealists and so on, all their thinking is limited. 共和党人，和民主党人， 和理想主义者，等等，他们的思维都是有限的。
21:23 DB: Yes. But it is limited in a way... D：是。但它们的有限程度是...
21:27 K: That is very destructive. K：非常具有破坏性的。
21:28 DB: That is very serious and destructive. In what way could we bring that out? I could say, ok, my thought is limited, but it may not be all that serious. You see, why is it so important? D：这是非常严重和具破坏性的。 我们要怎样才能把它厘清？ 你看，我可以说，'好吧，我的念头是有限的，但是， 好，它可能不是那么严重。' 你看，为什么这很重要？
21:40 K: That is fairly simple. Because whatever action is born of limited thought must breed conflict – inevitable. Like dividing humanity geographically into nationalities and so on and so on, religiously, has created havoc in the world. K：这相当简单： 因为无论有限的念头产生出任何动作 也会不可避免地培育出冲突。

D：是。

K：比如把人类在地理上划分， 划分为民族，国土，等等，等等， 在宗教界，也创造了世界浩劫。
22:06 DB: Yes, now let's connect that with the limitation of thought. That is, my knowledge is limited.

K: We said that. 		D：是，现在，让我们把这些与念头的局限连贯起来。 也就是说，我的知识是有限的，对不对？

K：我们说过了。

D：现在，它是如何导致我
22:13 DB: How does that lead me to divide the world... 去瓜分世界成为...
22:21 K: Aren't we seeking security?

DB: Yes. 		K：我们不是在寻求安全吗？

D：是。
22:25 K: And we thought there was security in the family, security in the tribe, security in nationalism. So we thought there is security in division. K：我们认为在家庭中有安全性， 在部落里有安全性， 在民族主义中有安全性。 因此，我们认为在分割中有安全性。
22:40 DB: Yes. Now it has come out. Take the tribe, for example, say one may feel insecure, one then says, with the tribe I am secure. That is a conclusion. And I think I know enough to be sure that is so, but I don't. Other things happen that I don't know, which make that very insecure. Other tribes come along. D：是。我现在似乎已经看清楚了。 以部落为例子，比方说我感到不安时， 我会说，'在部落里，我是安全的。' 这是一个结论。 而我认为自己很清楚，也很肯定的确如此，但其实我不知道。 我不知道还有其他的事情在发生，这变得很不安全。 其他的部落来侵略。
23:00 K: No, the very division creates insecurity. K：不，不，分割本身制造不安全感。
23:04 DB: It helps to create it, yes, but I am trying to say, I don't know enough to know that. I don't see that. D：这有助于制造它，对，但我是想说， 我没有足够的知识去了解它，对不对？

K：不。

D：我不明白这个。
23:12 K: But one doesn't see it because one has not thought about anything, looked at the world as a whole. K：当一个人不明白这个时 那是因为他从没有去好好思考它， 去观世间万物为一体。

D：是，好，念头试图去...
23:22 DB: The thought which aims at security attempts to know everything important. It assumes it knows everything important and then it says, this will bring security. Now, not only there are a lot of things it doesn't know, but one thing it doesn't know is that this very thought itself is divisive. 你看，念头把安全当成目标 试图知道一切重要的东西。

K：是的。

K：它自以为知道所有重要的一切 并说，'这会带来安全。' 现在，它不仅有许多不知道的东西， 还有一点它不知道的是， 这个想法本身是分裂的，对不对？
23:38 K: Divisive, yes. K：分裂，是的。

D：分裂。这将...
23:41 DB: Because I define an area which is secure, divided from another area. 因为我把一个领域定义为安全， 就和另一个领域分割了。
23:45 K: Because in itself it is limited.

DB: Yes. 		K：因为它本身是有限的。

D：是。
23:49 K: Anything that is limited must inevitably create conflict. K：凡是是有限的，不可避免地造成冲突。
23:56 DB: Well, you mean any thought that is... D：好，你是指任何念头是...
23:59 K: If I say, I am an individual, it is limited. K：如果我说，'我是一个个人，' 这是有限的。
24:03 DB: Yes. D：是。
24:05 K: I am concerned with myself, that is very limited. K：我对自己很关心，这是非常有限的。
24:08 DB: Yes, we have to get this clear. If I say, this is a table, which is limited, it creates no conflict, right? D：是，我们必须弄清楚这一点。 你看，如果我说，'这是一张桌子'，这是有限的， 它却没有造成冲突，对不对？
24:14 K: No. There is no conflict there. K：不，不。那里有没有冲突。
24:16 DB: When I say, this is me, that creates conflict. D：现在，当我说，'这是我，'会造成冲突。
24:19 K: Yes. The me is a divisive entity. K：是的。这个'我'是一个分裂性体。
24:23 DB: Let's see more clearly why. D：让我们更清楚地看到为什么，你看。
24:27 K: Because it is separative, it is concerned with itself. The me identifying with the greater nation is still divisive. K：因为它是分割性的，它关注的是自己。 那个认同民族性的‘我’仍然是分裂性的。
24:42 DB: Yes, well, I define myself in the interest of security, so that I know what I am as opposed to what you are, and I protect myself. Now, this creates a division between me and you. D：是，好，我以安全利益定义了自己， 所以，我知道我自己，有别于你， 而我会保护自己，对不对？ 那么，这就造成了我和你之间的分割。
24:57 K: We and they, and so on. Now, that comes from my limited thought because I don't understand that we are really closely related and connected. K：我们和他们，等等。

D：我们和他们。现在， 这是来自我有限的念头，因为我不明白 我们其实是密切相关与相连。
25:06 K: That we are human beings.

DB: Yes, we are all human beings. 		K：我们是人类。

D：是，我们都是人类。
25:09 K: All human beings have more or less the same problems. K：所有的人都或多或少存有同样的问题。
25:13 DB: No, I haven't understood that, my knowledge is limited, I think that we can make a distinction and protect ourselves, or me, and not the others. D：不，我还没有理解这一点。 我的念头，我的知识是有限的， 我认为我们可以做出一个区分来保护自己， 和我，而不是其他的人。

K：是的，没错。
25:22 K: Yes, that is right. D：但是我这个行为本身，会造成不稳定。
25:23 DB: But in the very act of doing that, I create instability. K：是的，没错。你制造了不安全感。
25:27 K: Yes, that is right.

DB: Insecurity. So, if we see that, not merely intellectually or verbally but actually feel it, that we are the rest of humanity, then the responsibility becomes immense. 		所以，如果我们看清这一点， 不仅在智力上或口头上，而是实实在在地感受到它 我们就是其他的人类， 那时我们的责任就会变得无限巨大。
25:50 DB: Yes, well, how can you do anything about that responsibility? D：是，好，对于这个责任，你能有什么作为呢？
25:54 K: Then I either contribute to the whole mess or keep out of it. That is to be at peace, to have order in oneself. K：那我就能有助于那整个混乱， 或者避开它。 那就是处于清净之中， 有本身的顺序。
26:09 DB: I didn’t understand.

K: I will come to that. I am going too far. 		D：好，我不能明白。

K：我会解释。 我知道我推进得太快了。

D：是，你瞧 - 现在让我们来 -
26:15 DB: I think we have touched on an important point that we say the whole of humanity, of mankind is one, and therefore to create division there is destructive. 我想我们已触及一个重点 就是我们说整个人类，全人类，是一体， 所以，在那里制造分裂...

K：是危险的

D：...是有破坏性的，对。
26:25 K: Is dangerous. Now, whereas to create division between me and the table is not dangerous, because in some sense we are not one. 现在，然而在我和桌子之间建立区分 却没有危险，因为在某些意义上，我们可不是一体的
26:33 K: Me and the trees, of course. K：我和这棵树，不是吗？当然。
26:35 DB: That is only in some very general sense that we are one. Now, mankind doesn't realise that it is all one. D：那是说，只在很笼统的意义上，我们才是一体的。 现在，人类并没有意识到，全人类是一体的。
26:42 K: Why?

DB: Well, let's go into that. This is a crucial point. It is clear it doesn't because there are so many divisions, and not only nations and religions but from one person to another. 		K：为什么？为什么？

D：好，让我们去讨论它。 这是一个关键点。 显然的人类并不懂，因为我们有这么多的划分， 不仅是民族和宗教 而是从一个人到另一个。
26:53 K: I know. Why is there this division? K：我知道。为什么会出现这种划分？
26:56 DB: The first was the feeling, at least in the modern era, that every human being is an individual. This may not have been so strong in the past. D：第一个原因，感觉，至少在当今时代， 每个人都是一个个体，对不对？ 在过去，这种感觉可能没有这么强烈。
27:05 K: That is what I question. I question altogether whether we are individuals. K：这是我所质疑的。 我全面质疑我们是否是个人。
27:12 DB: Yes, well, that is a big question. D：是，好，这是一个大问题，因为...
27:14 K: Of course. We said just now, the consciousness, which is me, is similar to the rest of mankind. They all suffer, they all have fears, they are all insecure, they have their own particular gods and rituals, all put together by thought. K：是的，当然。 我们刚才所说的 我的意识，就是我， 等同其余的人类。 他们都在受苦...

D：是。

K：...他们都有恐惧， 他们都没有安全感， 他们有自己个别的神和仪式， 全由念头组合而成。
27:46 DB: Yes, well, there are two questions here: one is, not everybody feels that he is similar. Most people feel they have some unique distinction. D：是，好，我觉得这需要一些，你知道... 这里有两个问题。 一个是，并非所有人都认为他与他人相似， 大多数人认为他们有一些独特的区别。
27:59 K: What do you mean unique distinction? Distinction in doing something? K：你是什么意思，‘独特的区别'？ 做事时的区别？
28:04 DB: There may be many things. For example, one nation may feel that it is able to do certain things better than another. One person has some special things he does, or qualities.

K: Of course. You are more intellectual than I am. You are somebody else, better, this and that. 		D：那可有多种事情。例如， 一个国家可能会觉得它能够做某些事情 比他国做得更好。一个人有他做的 特别事，或品质。

K：当然。 你有更好的...你比我更聪明。 你是别人 - 比这个好，比那个好。
28:22 DB: He may take pride in his own special abilities or advantages. D：他可能会为自己的特殊能力或优势感到骄傲。

K：但是当你把那些都搁置一旁，我们基本上是相同的。
28:28 K: But when you put that away, basically we are the same. D：现在，是的。我们不得不问那是什么意思。
28:32 DB: Yes. We have to say what does it mean. You are saying that these things which you have just described... 你是说这些你刚才所描述的东西，
28:37 K: Are superficial. 都是...

K：肤浅的。
28:39 DB: Now, the things that are basic are what? D：是，现在，基本的东西又是什么呢？
28:41 K: Is fear, sorrow, pain, anxiety, loneliness, and all the human travail. K：是恐惧，悲伤，痛苦，焦虑，孤独， 和人类的所有艰苦辛酸。
28:49 DB: Many people might feel that the basic things are the highest achievements of man, the highest achievements of mankind are not these. D：是，好，很多人可能会觉得 基本的东西是那些人类的最高成就， 人类的最高成就却不是这些。
28:57 K: What has he achieved?

DB: Let's discuss it. 		K：他取得了什么成就？

D：好，让我们来讨论它，你看...

K：是，是。
29:03 DB: I understand that we discussed this often, but I think we must bring it out. D：我的意思是，我明白，我们讨论了这个多次， 但我认为我们必须把它说得更清楚。
29:09 K: Yes, let's go into it. What have we achieved? K：是的，先生，让我们深入讨论它。 我们有什么成就？
29:13 DB: Well, for one thing people may feel proud of the achievement of man in science, in art, in culture, in technology. D：好，其一是人们会引以为荣 为人类在科学，艺术，文化，与科技领域的成就感到骄傲。
29:20 K: We have achieved in all those directions, certainly we have. Vast technology, communication, travel, medicine, surgery has advanced tremendously. K：在这些领域我们已经取得了成就，我们肯定有。

D：是。

K：广大的技术， 通讯，旅游， 药物，外科手术 都非常的先进。

D：是。
29:35 DB: Yes, it is really remarkable in many ways. 我的意思是，明显在许多方面都很卓越。
29:38 K: There is no question about it. What have we psychologically achieved? K：这是毫无疑问的。

D：是。

K： 在心理方面，我们又有什么成就？
29:46 DB: Yes, one point is to say, none of this has affected us psychologically, and the psychological question is more important than any of the others, because if the psychological question is not cleared up, the rest is dangerous. D：是，我的意思是唯一能说的：那一切 对我们的心理，没有作用。

K：是的，没错。

D：而心理问题更重要 比任何其他的问题更为重要，因为如果心理问题 未被清除，其余一切都具危险性。
29:59 K: Quite right. If we psychologically are limited, then whatever we do will be limited, and the technology will then be used by our limited... K：是的，完全正确。就是这样。 如果我们在心理上是有限的， 那么无论我们做什么都是有限的， 而技术将被用于我们有限的...
30:10 DB: Yes, the master is this limited psyche and not the rational structure of technology. And in fact technology then becomes a dangerous instrument. So that is one point, that the psyche is at the core of it all, and if the psyche is not in order then the rest is useless. Now, the second question is – although we are saying that there are certain basic disorders in the psyche, or lack of order, which is common to us all, we may all have a potential for something else – but the second point is: are we all one, really? That is, even though we are all similar, that doesn't say we are all the same, we are all one. D：对，主子是这个有限的心灵 而不是那合理的 技术结构。

K：理智的，理性的。

D：而事实上，技术就变成一个危险的...

K：工具。

D：...工具。现在， 所以这是一点，即心灵是一切的核心， 如果心灵不是有顺序，那其余的就无用了。 现在，第二个问题是： 虽然大家都在说 我们有某种的基本心灵障碍， 或缺乏秩序，这是我们大家的共同处， 我们却可能拥有不同方面的潜力， 但第二点是： 我们真的是一体的吗，你看？ 也就是说，即使我们都是相似的，却不等于说 我们都是同体的，一体的。
31:03 K: We said, in our consciousness basically we have the same ground on which we stand. K：不，我们说，基本上在我们的意识中 我们都有相同的立场。
31:13 DB: Yes. From the fact, I would say the human body is similar, it doesn't prove they are all the same. D：是。好，你看，从这一事实，比方说， 人体是相似的，并不能证明它们都是一样的。
31:21 K: Of course, not. Your body is different from mine. K：当然不是。你的身体和我的是不同的。
31:23 DB: Yes, we are in different places, and different entities and so on. I think you are trying to say that the consciousness is not an entity which is individual. The body is an entity which has a certain individuality. D：是，我们在不同地方，不同的实体，等等。 现在，好，我想你是说 意识不是一个实体，不是个人...

K：没错。

D：身体是一个实体 具有一定的个性。
31:35 K: That is right. That is all seems so clear. K：没错。那一切似乎都那么清楚。
31:39 DB: It may be clear. But I think... D：可能是清楚的。但我却觉得...
31:43 K: Your body is different from mine. K：你的身体和我的不同。

D：是。
31:46 DB: Yes. K：我和你有不同的名字。
31:48 K: I have a different name than you. D：是呀，我们是如此不同，
31:50 DB: Yes, well we are so different, though similar material, it is different, we can't exchange. 虽然类似的材料，它却是不同的，我们不能交换。
31:55 K: No, we can't.

DB: Because the proteins in one body may not agree with those in the other. Now, many people feel that way about the mind, saying that there is a chemistry between people which may agree or disagree. 		K：不，不。我们不能。

D：由于一个人体内的蛋白质 可能会不适合另一个人。 现在，许多人也是以同样方式看待意识， 他们说， 人与人之间的化学作用 可能会产生，可能不会。

K：是，但实际上
32:05 K: But actually, if you go deeper into the question, consciousness is shared by all human beings. That is my whole point. 如果你深入探讨这个问题， 意识是全人类共享的。 这是我整个观点。
32:17 DB: Yes. Now, the feeling is that the consciousness is individual and that it is communicated as it were, that it is... D：是。现在，我的感觉还是，意识是个人的 而且它还是如往常般沟通，它是...
32:26 K: I think that is an illusion because we are sticking to something that is not so. K：我认为它是一种幻觉， 因为我们自己坚持它是那个假相。

D：是，那么，你是想说
32:33 DB: Do you want to say that there is one consciousness of mankind? 我们有一个全人类的意识？
32:36 K: It is all one.

DB: It is all one, and that is important because whether it is many or one is a crucial question. Now, it could be many which are then communicating and building up a larger unit. Or you are saying, from the very beginning it is all one? 		K：它是单一的。

D：它是单一的。 现在，这很重要，因为 到底是多个还是单一，这是一个至关重要的问题。

K：是的。

D：现在，它可能是多个，然后通过沟通 进而建立一个较大的单位。 或者你是说，从一开始就是单一的？
32:52 K: From the very beginning it is all one. K：从一开始它就是一体的。
32:54 DB: And the sense of separateness is an illusion, right? D：而意识的独立性只是一种幻觉，对不对？
32:58 K: That is what I have said over and over again. That seems so logical, sane. The other is insanity. K：这就是我常说的，一遍又一遍。 这说法听起来很符合逻辑，理智。 别的说法是精神错乱。

D：是，现在，人们却不觉得，不能直接感觉到
33:12 DB: One doesn't immediately feel that the notion of separate existence is insane, because one extrapolates from the body to the mind. One says, it is quite sensible to say my body is separate from yours and inside my body is my mind. 分别存在的概念是错乱的， 因为我们从身体到心进行推断。 我们说，非常合理的，我的身体和你的是分开的， 而我的心是在我的身体内。
33:26 K: Of course. K：当然。

D：现在，你是否在说
33:27 DB: Now, are you saying the mind is not inside the body? 心不在身体内部呢？
33:30 K: Now, that is quite a different question. Let's finish with the other first. If each one of us thinks that we are separate individuals, psychically, what we have done in the world is a colossal mess. K：现在，这是一个完全不同的问题。 让我们谈完另一个先。 如果我们每个人都认为我们在心理上是独立的个体， 我们在世界上所做的是一个巨大的混乱。
33:49 DB: If we think we are separate when we are not separate, then it will clearly be a colossal mess. D：好，如果我们认为我们是独立个体，而我们又不是， 那显然是一个巨大的混乱。
33:53 K: That is what is happening. Each one thinks he has to do what he wants to do, fulfil himself. So he is struggling in his separateness to achieve peace, to achieve security, which that security and that peace is totally denied. K：这就是世间现状。每个人都认为 他必须做他想做的，满足自己。 于是，他在努力 各自努力 去实现和平， 去实现安全，而这种安全，和这种和平 却被全然否定。
34:19 DB: The reason it is denied is because there is no separation. If there were really separation it would be a rational thing to try to do. D：是。好，它被否定的原因是因为没有分离。 如果真的有分离 这将是一个合理的尝试。
34:26 K: Yes, actual. K：是，正实。
34:27 DB: But if we are trying to separate what is inseparable the result will be chaos.

K: That is right. 		D：但是，如果我们试图去分离那分不开的 结果将是混乱。

K：没错，没错。
34:32 DB: Now, that is clear, but I think that it will not be clear to people immediately that the consciousness of mankind is one inseparable whole. D：现在，这是明确的，但我还是觉得 一般人不会立即明白 人类的意识是一个不可分割的整体。
34:42 K: Yes, sir, inseparable whole, absolutely right. K：对，先生，不可分割的整体，完全正确。
34:49 DB: Many questions will arise if you once even consider the notion – I don't know if we have gone far enough into this yet. One question is, why do we think we are separate? D：会出现很多问题，就算你只是去考虑那个概念 - 好，我知道我们还不够深入这一点。 一个问题是，为什么我们会认为我们是分开的？
35:00 K: Why? Why do I think I am separate? That is my conditioning. K：为什么呢？ 为什么我觉得我是分开的？这就是我的调教规化。
35:08 DB: Yes, but how did we ever adopt such a foolish conditioning? D：是的，但我们为何会接受这种愚蠢的调教呢？
35:13 K: From childhood – it is mine, my toy, not yours. K：从童年，'这是我的，我的玩具，不是你的。'
35:18 DB: Yes, but the first feeling you get is: I say, it is mine, because I feel I am separate. It isn't clear how the mind, which was one, came to this illusion that it is all broken up into many pieces. D：是的，但你得到的第一感觉是... 我说，'这是我的'，因为我觉得我是独立的，你看。

K：是的。就是这样。

D：你看，我们不清楚，我们原本是一体的心， 为何会产生幻觉，使一切变得支离破碎。
35:33 K: I think it is again the activity of thought. Thought in its very nature, thought is divisive, fragmentary, and therefore I am a fragment. K：我认为这又是念头的造作。 念头的本质，基本上是分裂的， 破碎的，所以我是一个碎片。
35:50 DB: Thought will create a sense of fragments. You could see, for example, that once we decide to set up a nation then we will think we are separate from the other nation, and all sorts of consequences follow, which make the whole thing seem independently real. You have all sorts of separate language, separate laws, and you set up a boundary. And after a while you see so much evidence of separation, that you say you forget how it started, and you say that was there always, and we are merely proceeding from what was there always. D：是，好，念头会制造一种破碎的感觉，你看。 你可以看到，例如，一旦我们决定成立一个国家， 我们就认为我们和其他国家是分开的， 然后各种各样的事情，会接踵而来， 去显示整个事物是真正独立的。 我们有各种不同的语言，有本身的法律， 去分割这些，我们还画清国界。 稍后，你会看到很多分割的证据， 你会说你已忘了当初是如何开始的， 而你会说本来就是如此，我们只是 承先启后，开来继往。
36:27 K: That is why I feel if once we grasp the nature of thought, the structure of thought, how thought operates, what is the source of thought, and therefore it is always limited – if we really see that. K：这就是为什么，先生，我觉得如果一旦我们掌握了念头的性质， 念头的结构，念头如何运作， 什么是念头的来源， 如果我们真正看清它，那么，它一定是有限的...
36:47 DB: The source of thought is what – is it memory? D：现在，念头的来源是什么？是记忆吗？
36:49 K: Memory.

DB: Yes. 		K：记忆。

D：是。
36:50 K: Memory is the remembrance of things past, which is knowledge, and knowledge is the outcome of experience, and experience is always limited. K：记忆是回忆过去， 也就是知识，而知识是经验的成果， 而经验总是有限的。
37:04 DB: Thought includes, of course, also the attempt to go forward, to use logic, to take into account discoveries and insights. D：是，好，当然，念头也包括， 前进的尝试， 应用逻辑的尝试， 去探索和内观的尝试。
37:15 K: As we are saying some time ago, thought is time. K：正如我们先前所说，念头是时间。
37:18 DB: Yes, alright. Thought is time. That requires more discussion too, because the first experience is to say time is there first, and thought is taking place in time. For example, if we say that movement is taking place, the body is moving, and this requires time. D：是，现在，好吧。念头是时间。 现在，这也需要更多的讨论， 因为我的第一经验是认为 先有时间，而念头是在时间里运作的。

K：啊，不是。

D：现在，例如，比方说我们正在移动， 身体在移动，这是需要时间的。
37:42 K: To go from here to there needs time. To learn a language needs time. K：从这里走过去那里需要时间。

D：是。

K：学习一种语言需要时间。
37:47 DB: Yes, to grow a plant needs time. D：是，栽种植物需要时间。

K：你知道，全部事物。画一幅画需要时间。
37:50 K: To paint a picture takes time. D：我们也说思考需要时间。
37:52 DB: We also say to think takes time. K：所以，我们的思考也以时间为根据。
37:55 K: So we think in terms of time. D：是。你看，我们通常都会去注意的第一点
37:57 DB: Yes, the first point that one would tend to look at is to say just as everything takes time, to think takes time. But you are saying something else, which is that thought is time. That is, psychically speaking, psychologically speaking. 是说，正如一切都需要时间，思考也需要时间。 现在你却说相异的话，就是 思想是时间。

K：思想是时间。

D： 即是说，在心灵上，在心理上都是。
38:14 K: Of course. K：当然，当然。
38:15 DB: Now, how do we understand that? D：现在，我们要如何去理解那个呢？
38:22 K: How do we understand what? K：我们要如何去理解什么？
38:26 DB: Thought is time. You see, it is not obvious. ??：念头是时间。你看这不是很明显。
38:29 K: Oh, yes. Would you say thought is movement, and time is movement? K：哦，是的。 你会说念头是运动，时间是运动吗？

D：那是运动。现在，这些都是，你看...
38:45 DB: Time is a mysterious thing, people have argued about it. We could say that time requires movement. I could understand that we cannot have time without movement. 时间是一个神秘的东西，人们对此有争论。 我们可以说，时间需要运行。 我可以理解，时间不可能没有运动。
38:58 K: Time is movement. Time is not separate from movement. K：时间是运动。

D：时间是运动的。

K：时间不能与运动分开。
39:03 DB: I don't say it is separate from movement, but to say time is movement – if we said time and movement are one. D：我不会说它与运动是分开的，但是，你看， 如果说时间是运动...似乎是说时间和运动是一体的。
39:11 K: Yes, I am saying that.

DB: Yes. Now, they cannot be separated.

K: No. 		K：对，我就是这样说。

D：是。 现在，他们不能分开，对不对？

K：不能。
39:16 DB: Because that seems fairly clear. Now, there is physical movement, which means physical time. There is the heart beat and so on. D：因为那似乎相当明显。 现在，有物质的运动时，就意味着有物理时间，对不对？

K：是的，物理时间。

D：有心脏跳动，等等。
39:25 K: Hot and cold, and also dark and light. K：热和冷，也有黑暗与光明...
39:28 DB: The seasons.

K: Sunset, sunrise, all that. Then we have the movement of thought. Now, that brings in the question of the nature of thought. Is thought nothing but a movement in the nervous system, in the brain? Would you say that?

K: Yes.

DB: Some people have said it includes the movement of the nervous system but there might be something beyond. 		D：四季。

K：...日落和日出，那一切。

D：是。 现在，我们也有念头的运动。 现在，这说法带入关于念头本质的问题，你看。 念头是否只是在神经系统中的运动，大脑中的运动，别无他物？ 你会这样说吗？

K：会，会。

D：有的人曾说，念头包含着 神经系统的运动，但却可能不止这些。
39:53 K: What is time, actually? Actually, what is time? Time is hope. K：什么是时间，先生，实际上？ 实际上，时间是什么？ 时间是希望。
40:05 DB: Psychologically.

K: Psychologically. I am talking entirely psychologically for the moment. 		D：在心理上来说。

K：心理上来说。 我现在所说的一切都是属于心理方面的。
40:09 DB: One tends to keep on thinking. D：人们往往都在不断地思考。

D：当然。
40:11 K: Of course. We have understood that. K：我们已经理解这一点。

D：是。

K：时间 - 我的意思是，希望是时间。
40:15 K: Hope is time. Becoming is time. Achieving is time. Now, take the question of becoming: I want to become something, psychologically. I want to become non-violent – take that for example. That is altogether a fallacy. 形成是时间。 成就是时间。 现在，来谈谈形成的问题： 我的意思是，在心理上，我想成为某种人。 我想成为非暴力的人。就用这个例子。 这完全是一个谬论。

D：是，好，我们理解这是一个谬论，但是，你知道，
40:53 DB: We understand it is a fallacy but the reason it is a fallacy is that there is no time of that kind. 它之所以是一个谬论，是因为根本没有 那种时间，是如此吗？
41:03 K: No. Human beings are violent, and they have been talking a great deal – Tolstoy, and in India – of non-violence. The fact is we are violent. K：不，不，先生。 人类是狂暴的。

D：是。

K：而他们已经谈论了很多 - 托尔斯泰，也在印度- 关于非暴力。 事实上，我们是暴力的。
41:20 DB: Yes. D：是。
41:22 K: And the non-violence is not real. But we want to become that. K：而非暴力并不是真实的。 但我们想成为那样。

D：是，不过，你看，
41:30 DB: Yes, but it is again an extension of the kind of thought that we have with regard to material things. If you see a desert, the desert is real, and you say the garden is not real but in your mind is the garden, which will come when you put the water there. So we say, we can plan for the future when the desert will become fertile. Now, we have to be careful – we say we are violent, but we cannot by similar planning become non-violent. Why is that? 这又是那种念头的延伸 我们对待物质的念头的延伸。 你看，当你看到一个沙漠，那沙漠是真实的 而你说花园不是真实的，但在你的心中 有那个花园，它将出现，当你把水浇在那里。 所以我们说，我们可以为未来计划 何时那沙漠将变得肥沃。 现在，我们必须要小心，我们说我们是暴力的， 但我们却不能以类似的规划去变成非暴力。

K：非暴力。

D：现在，那是为什么呢？
42:04 K: Why? Because the non-violent state cannot exist while there is violence. K：为什么？由于非暴力的状态 在暴力之中不能存在。
42:13 DB: Yes. D：是。
42:15 K: That is an ideal. K：那是一个理想。
42:19 DB: One has to make it more clear, because in the same sense the fertile state and the desert don't exist together either. I think that you are saying that in the case of the mind, when you are violent, it has no meaning. D：我们要作出更明确的说明，因为在同样的意义上 肥沃的土地和沙漠也不可能一起存在。 你看，我认为你是说，在心这方面， 当你是暴力时，它没有任何意义。
42:35 K: That is the only state.

DB: That is all there is. 		K：这是唯一的状况。

D：这是仅有的一切。
42:38 K: Yes, not the other. K：是的，没有其他。
42:39 DB: The movement towards the other is illusory. D：导向其他的运动都是虚幻的。

K：是虚幻的。

D：是。
42:45 K: So all ideals are illusory, psychologically. The ideal of building a marvellous bridge is not illusory, you can plan it, but to have psychological ideals. K：所以，在心理上，所有的理想都是虚幻的。 建造一个了不起的桥梁不是虚幻的理想。 你可以计划它，但心理上的理想...
43:05 DB: Yes, if you are violent and you continue to be violent while you are trying to be non-violent... D：是，如果你是狂暴的，而你继续使用暴力 同时你尝试变成非暴力...
43:11 K: It is so obvious.

DB: It has no meaning. 		K：这是那么明显。

D：那没有意义。
43:13 K: There is no meaning, and yet that has become such an important thing. So, the becoming, which is either becoming 'what is' or becoming away from 'what is.' K：那没有意义， 然而，它却已经成为一个如此重要的事情。 因此，这个形成，或是变化成为'如是' 或是变化成为不是'如是'。
43:34 DB: Yes, 'what should be.' D：是，哪一个才是...
43:38 K: I question both. K：我两个都质疑。
43:44 DB: If you say there can be no sense to becoming in the way of self-improvement. D：是，好，如果你说自我提升的变化过程 是没有意义的...
43:51 K: Self-improvement is something so utterly ugly. So we are saying that the source of all this is the movement of thought as time. When once we admit time psychologically, all the other ideals, non-violence, achieving some super state and so on, become utterly illusory. K：自我提升是极其丑陋的东西。 所以我们说，先生，那 一切的资源，是等同时间的念头运动。 一旦我们在心理上承认时间， 其他所有的理想， 非暴力，一些超级状态的成就， 等等，等等，就变得完全虚幻了。

D：是。现在，当你谈论关于等同时间的念头运动时，
44:28 DB: Yes. Now, when you talk of the movement of thought as time, it seems to me that that time which comes from movement of thought is illusory.

K: Yes. 		在我看来，念头运动所产生的时间 是虚幻的。是吗？

K：是的。
44:41 DB: We sense it as time, but it is not a real kind of time. D：我们感觉到它是时间，但它不是一个真实的时间。
44:44 K: That is why we asked, what is time?

DB: Yes. 		K：这就是为什么我们要问，什么是时间？

D：是。
44:49 K: I need time to go from here to there. If I want to learn some engineering, I must study it, it takes time. That same movement is carried over into the psyche. I say, I need time to be good. I need time to be enlightened. K：我需要时间去从这里走到那里。 如果我想了解一些工程， 我必须去学习它，那需要时间。 同样的运动被带入心灵。 我们说，'我需要时间去做好人。 我需要时间来得到启发。'
45:16 DB: Yes, that will always create a conflict between one part of you and another. So, that movement in which you say, I need time, also creates a division in the psyche between, say, the observer and the observed. D：是，那总是会造成冲突 一部分的你和另一部分的你产生冲突。 所以，那个你说，'我需要时间，'的运动也就在 你的心灵中制造了分裂...

K：是的，没错。

D：...也就是说，在观者和所观之间制造分裂。
45:32 K: That is right. We are saying the observer is the observed. K：那么就有了冲突。是的，没错。 我们说观者就是所观。
45:35 DB: Yes, and therefore there is no time is what is meant, psychologically. D：是的，因此没有时间， 在心理上。

K：没错。
45:40 K: The experiencer, the thinker, is the thought. There is no thinker separate from thought. 经验者，思考者，就是念头。 没有离开念头的思考者。
45:50 DB: Yes. All that you are saying seems very reasonable. I think that it goes so strongly against the tradition, or what we are used to, that it will be extraordinarily hard for people to really, generally speaking, to... D：是， 你所说的一切，你知道，似乎都很合理， 好，我认为这个看法强烈的冲击传统的看法， 我们所习惯的看法...

K：当然，当然。

D：...这将是非常困难去使到人们 真正，一般来说，去...
46:05 K: Most people, they want a comfortable way of living. Let me carry on as I am, for God's sake, leave me alone. K：不，大多数人，先生， 他们要一种舒适的生活方式。 '让我如常过日子，看在上帝的份上，不要打扰我。'
46:15 DB: Yes, but that is the result of so much conflict that people are worn out by anything. D：是的，但是那么多冲突的结果会...

K：那么多的冲突。

D：...任何东西都使人们疲软。

K：但是， 逃避冲突，或不解决冲突，
46:24 K: But in escaping from conflict or not resolving conflict, conflict exists, whether you like it or not. That is the whole point. Is it possible to live a life without conflict? 冲突继续存在，不管你喜欢还是不喜欢。 这是整个重点。 是否有可能拥有一个没有冲突的生活呢？
46:40 DB: That is all implicit in what has been said. D：是，好， 在所说之中已有答案。
46:43 K: That is right. K：没错，没错。
46:44 DB: That the source of conflict is thought, or knowledge, or the past. D：冲突的根源是念头，或知识，或过去。
46:49 K: So, then one asks: is it possible to transcend thought? K：所以，我们就问：是否有可能去超越念头？
46:55 DB: Yes. D：是。
46:58 K: Or is it possible to end knowledge? I am putting it psychologically. K：还是有可能去结束知识？ 我是说在心理上，不是...

D：是。我们是说物体，物理物体的一般知识，
47:08 DB: We say ordinary knowledge of objects, of material objects and things like that, knowledge of science, will continue. 诸如此类，科学知识，将继续存在。
47:15 K: Absolutely. That must continue. K：绝对的。那必须继续存在。
47:18 DB: But what you call self-knowledge is what you are asking to end, isn't it?

K: Yes. 		D：但那个你称为自我认识 也是你要我们去结束的知识，不是吗？

K：是。
47:23 DB: On the other hand people have said self-knowledge – even you have said – self-knowledge is very important. D：在另一方面，人们却说自我认识... - 你也是这样说 -自我认识是非常重要的。
47:28 K: Self-knowledge is important but if I take time to understand myself, that is, I will understand myself eventually, by examination, analysis, and so on, watching my relationship with others, all that involves time. And I say there is another way of looking at the whole thing without time. Which is, when the observer is the observed. In that observation there is no time. K：自我认识是重要的， 但是如果我花时间去了解自己， 也就是说，我最终会理解我自己， 通过检查，分析，等等，等等，等等， 观察整个我与其他人的关系，等等。 所有那些都涉及时间。

D：是，好...

K：而我说还有另一种方法 去观整个事物而不需要时间。 就是，当观者即是所观时。

D：是。

K：在这种观察里没有时间。
48:13 DB: Could we go into that further? For example, if you say there is no time, but still you feel that you can remember an hour ago you were somewhere else. In what sense can we make it that there is no time? D：我们可以更深入谈论这个吗？ 我的意思是，例如，如果你口说时间不存在，心里却仍旧 记得在一小时之前，你身在别处。

K：当然，如果我是这样说和想，那将是疯狂的。

D：那么，在何种意义上，我们才能宣说没有时间的存在？
48:30 K: Time is division, as thought is division, that is why thought is time. K：时间是分段的。 对不对？因为念头也是分段的。所以念头也是时间。
48:39 DB: Time is a series of divisions of past, present, future. D：时间是一连串过去，现在和将来的段落。

K：念头也同样是如此分段。
48:44 K: So, thought is also that divisive. So time is thought, or thought is time. 所以时间是念头，或者念头是时间。
48:53 DB: It doesn't exactly follow from what you said, but we have explained it.

K: Let's go into it. 		D：是，好，我认为，它并不完全是如你所说 但我的意思是，我们要去解释它。

K：让我们去深入解释它。
49:06 DB: At first sight, one would think that thought makes divisions of all kinds, with the ruler and with all kinds of things, it also divides up intervals of time – past, present and future. Now, it doesn't follow from just that that thought is time. 乍看之下，人们可能会认为 念头在进行各种分割， 用标尺，和各种东西去分割， 也划分了时间，形成：过去，现在和未来。 现在，我不明白，单从这一点，就能论断念头是时间，你看。
49:23 K: Look, we said time is movement.

DB: Yes. 		K：看，我们说时间是运动。

D：是。
49:28 K: Thought is also a series of movements. So both are movements. K：念头也是一系列运动。

D：是，没错。

K：所以两者都是运动。
49:33 DB: So thought is a movement, right? A movement, we suppose, of the nervous system. D：是，所以念头是一种运动，对不对？ 一种，我们假设，神经系统的运动，而 ...
49:41 K: You see, it is a movement of becoming. I am talking psychologically. K：你看，它是一种形成的运动。 我是说，在心理上。
49:49 DB: But whenever you think, something is also moving in the blood, in the nerves and so on. Now, when we talk of a psychological movement, do you mean just a change of content? D：在心理上。但是，我的意思是，只要你有思考， 某些东西也会同时运作 在血液中，在神经里，等等，对不对？

K：当然。

D：好的。现在， 当我们在谈论一个心理运动， 你是不是指，仅仅是内容的改变？
50:03 K: Change of content? K：内容的改变？
50:05 DB: What is the movement, what is moving? D：好， 什么是那个运动？你看，什么在运动？
50:07 K: Look, I am this, and I am attempting to become something else psychologically. K：先生，你看：我是这样...

D：是。

K：...，而我试图在心理上成为别样。
50:15 DB: So that movement is in the content of your thought. D：是，所以那个运动是在你的念头中。
50:18 K: Yes. K：是，是。
50:20 DB: So if you say, I am this and I am attempting to become that, then I am in movement, right?

K: Yes. 		D：因此，如果你说'我是这样，我试图成为那样，' 那么我在运动，对不对？

K：对。
50:25 DB: At least, I feel that I am in movement. D：至少，我觉得我正在运动。
50:27 K: No, but I am – say, for instance, I am greedy. Greed is a movement. K：是。不，但我是... 例如说，我贪婪。

D：是。

K：贪婪是一种运动。
50:36 DB: What kind of a movement is it? D：它是什么样的运动？
50:38 K: To get what I want.

DB: To get more, yes. 		K：去获取我想要的。

D：去获得更多，对。
50:40 K: More, more, more. It is a movement, and I find that movement painful, suppose, and I try not to be greedy. The attempt not to be greedy is a movement in time, is becoming. K：更多，更多，更多。 它是一种运动。

D：对的。

K：而我觉得这个运动是痛苦的，假设。 所以我尽量不去贪。

D：是。

K： 不去贪的尝试是一个时间的运动，是一种形成。
51:06 DB: Yes, but even the greed was becoming. D：是的，但即使去贪也是一种形成。
51:08 K: Of course. K：当然。
51:11 K: So, is it possible – that is the real question – is it possible not to become, psychologically? K：所以，有没有可能- 这才是真正的问题 - 有没有可能 不要在心理上有所形成？
51:25 DB: It seems that that would require that you should not be anything psychologically. That is, as soon as you define yourself in any way, then... D：好，看来这将要求我们 在心理上荡然无物。 也就是说，只要你以任何方式定义你自己，你就...
51:36 K: No, we will define it in a minute or two. K：不， 再等一两分钟我们将会为它定义。
51:38 DB: But I meant, if I define myself as greedy, or I say I am greedy, or I am this or I am that, then either I will want to become something else or to remain what I am. D：但我的意思是，如果我把自己定义为贪婪， 或者我说：'我贪心，或者我是这样，我是那样，' 然后我会想去改变成别的样子 或继续维持原来的样子，对吗？
51:49 K: Now, can I remain what I am? Can I remain not with non-greed but with greed? And greed is not different from me, greed is me. K：现在，我能维持我原来的样子吗？ 我能维持不是非贪婪，而是贪婪吗？ 而贪婪与我并无差别; 贪婪是我。
52:08 DB: Yes. The ordinary way of thinking is that I am here, and I could either be greedy or not greedy, as these are attributes which I may or may not have. D：是。 这将需要，你知道... 普通的思维方式是， 我在这里，而我既可以贪也可以不贪。

K：当然。

D：由于这些属性，我可能有或可能没有。
52:21 K: But the attributes are me. K：但是那些属性是我。

D：是。现在这样的说法也是与
52:24 DB: Yes. That again goes very much against our common language and experience.

K: Of course, sir. 		我们普遍的语言和经验背道而驰。

K：当然，先生。
52:29 DB: Instead of saying that I am my attributes, which suggests that the thought of attribution creates the me. The sense of me. D：与其说我是我的属性，它是表明 属性的念头创造了'我'，对不对？ 我的意义。
52:40 K: All the qualities, the attributes, the virtues, the judgements and conclusions and opinions, is me. K：所有的素质，属性，美德， 判断，结论和意见，是我。
52:50 DB: Well, it seems to me that this would have to be perceived immediately as obvious.

K: That is the whole question. To perceive the totality of this whole movement, instantly. Then we come to the point – perception. Whether it is possible to perceive – it sounds a little odd, and perhaps a little crazy, but it is not – is it possible to perceive without all the movement of memory? To perceive something directly, without the word, without the reaction, without the memories entering into perception. 		D：好，在我看来，这应该马上去理解为 明显的。

K：这是整个问题。 去即时理解整个运动的整体。 然后，我们抵达这点 - 认知。 是否有没有可能去理解... - 听起来有点怪，也许有点疯狂，但它并不 - 是否有没有可能去理解而无需记忆的运作？ 去直接理解某个事物， 不需文字，不需反应，不需记忆， 直接认知。
53:38 DB: That is a very big question because memory has constantly entered perception. D：是， 好，这是一个很大的问题，因为记忆 不断地参与认知。

K：当然。
53:42 K: Of course. D：这也提出了如何去停止记忆运作的问题
53:47 DB: It would raise the question: what is going to stop memory from entering perception? 如何阻止它参与认知？

K：没有任何东西可以阻止它。
53:51 K: Nothing can stop it. But if I see the reason, the rationality of the activity of memory, which is limited, the very perception that it is limited, you have moved out of it into another dimension. 但是如果我看到那个原因， 理解记忆活动的局限性， 这个理解本身， 使你脱身而进入另一个层面。
54:16 DB: It seems to me that you have to perceive the whole of the limitation of memory. D：好，在我看来，你必须去理解 记忆的整体局限性。
54:19 K: Yes, not one part. K：对，不是局部。
54:21 DB: You can see in general that memory is limited, but there are many ways in which this is not obvious. For example, many of our reactions that are not obvious may be memory, but we don't experience them as memory. Like you say, I experience me as being there presently and not memory. That is the common experience. Suppose I say I want to become less greedy. So, I experience greed and I experience the urge to become as actuality and not merely the result of memory. But I say, I can remember that I have been greedy, but the me is the one who remembers, not the other way around. That memory creates me. D：你可以看到, 一般上，记忆是有限的， 但在众多方面，这可并不明显。 例如，我们许多不明显的反应 可能是记忆，但我们却不觉得它们是记忆。 就像你说，'我经验自我 确实地存在于当下，而不是记忆。' 这是共同的经验。 假如我说，'我在改变。我要变得不那么贪婪，' 所以我经验贪婪，我也经验要改变的激励 是实际的经验，而不仅仅是记忆的结果， 但我说，'我记得我曾经是贪婪的' 但却是这个'我'去记忆，不是相反的。

K：当然，当然。

D：记忆创造了我，对不对？

K：先生，这一切其实可以归结为：人能不能生活，
55:15 K: All this really comes down to: can man live, humanity live without conflict? That really basically comes to that. Can we have peace on this earth? And the activities of thought will never bring it about. 人类能不能生活在没有冲突中？ 基本上那些确实都归结到这个。 我们能否在这个地球上享有和平？ 而念头的活动将永远不会带来和平。
55:37 DB: It seems clear from what has been said that the activity of thought cannot bring about peace. Psychologically, it inherently brings about conflict. D：是，好，看来你所说的已明确表示， 念头的活动不能带来和平： 在心理上，本质上，它会带来冲突。
55:48 K: Yes, if we once really see or acknowledge that, our whole activity would be totally different. K：是的，一旦我们真正看清或承认这个真相， 我们的整个活动将会完全不同。
56:02 DB: Are you saying there is an activity which is not thought then, which is beyond thought? D：那么，你是不是说有一种不是念头的活动？

K：一种不是..？

D： 一种超越念头的活动。
56:07 K: Yes. K：是的。
56:09 DB: And which not only is beyond thought but which does not require the co-operation of thought? D：它不仅是超越念头，而且不需要 念头来配合？

K：当然不需要。
56:14 K: Certainly not. D：没有念头时，它也有可能去运行？
56:16 DB: That is, that it is possible for this to go on when thought is absent? K：这是真实的一点。我们曾经多次讨论过这个，
56:23 K: That is the real point. We have often discussed this, whether there is anything beyond thought. Not something holy, sacred – I am not talking of that. I am talking: is there an activity which is not touched by thought? We are saying there is. And that activity is the highest form of intelligence. 是否有超越念头的东西。 不是某些神圣的， 圣洁的- 我不是在谈这些。 我是在说：有没有一个活动， 它不受念头所触动？ 我们说有。 而这个活动 是智慧的最高形式。
56:59 DB: Well, now we have brought in intelligence. D：是，好，现在我们已经带进了智慧。
57:01 K: I know, I purposely brought it in. So, intelligence is not the activity of cunning thought. There is intelligence to build a table. K：我知道，我知道，我是特意把它带进来的！ 因此，智慧不是 狡猾的念头活动。 我们有制造桌子的智慧。
57:19 DB: Intelligence can use thought, as you have often said. D：是，好，智慧可以应用念头，正如你常说的。
57:23 K: Intelligence can use thought, yes. K：智慧可以应用念头。
57:25 DB: Or thought can be the action of intelligence, would you put it that way?

K: Yes. 		D：是，就是说，念头可能是智慧的行动 - 你会这样说吗？

K：会。
57:30 DB: Or it could be the action of memory? D：或者它可能是记忆的行动？
57:33 K: That is it. Either the action is born of memory, and therefore memory is limited, therefore thought is limited, and it has its own activity which then brings about conflict. K：就是这样。它可能是记忆引发的行动， 因此，记忆是有限的，因此念头是有限的， 而它有自己的活动，然后带来冲突。
57:44 DB: Yes, I think this would connect up with what people are saying about computers. Every computer must eventually depend on some kind of memory which is put in or else programmed and that must be limited.

K: Of course. 		D：是，我认为这可比拟 人们对电脑的看法。 每台电脑最终必须依靠 某种记忆，依靠记忆。

K：记忆，是的。

D：它被置入...

K：被编程。

D：...或者被编程。 而那必定是有限的，对不对？

K：当然。
58:03 DB: Therefore when we operate from memory, we are not very different from a computer, the other way around, perhaps, the computer is not very different from us. D：所以当我们依靠记忆运作时， 我们与一台电脑并无不同; 反过来说，或许， 电脑与我们并无很大差别。

K：我会说我们并无不同：印度教徒被编程为
58:13 K: A Hindu has been programmed for the last 5000 years to be a Hindu, or in this country you are being programmed as British, or as a Catholic or a Protestant. So we are all programmed up to a certain extent. 印度教徒达五千年之久; 或者在这个国家里，你们被编程为英国人， 或天主教徒，或新教徒。

D：是。

K：所以我们全都被编程到某个程度。
58:32 DB: Then we could say there you are bringing in the notion of an intelligence which is free of the programme, which is creative, perhaps.

K: Yes, that is right. That intelligence has nothing to do with memory and knowledge. 		D：是，现在， 我们可以说你正在带入这个 智慧的概念，即是说它不会被编程， 也就是拥有创造力，或许。

K：是的，没错。 智慧与记忆和知识不相干。
58:45 DB: Yes, it may act in memory and knowledge, but it has nothing to do with it in its origin. D：是的，它可以在记忆和知识中运作， 但它与它们不相干。
58:49 K: It may act through memory, etc. That is right. How do you find out whether it has any reality, not just imagination and romantic nonsense, how do you find out? To come to that one has to go into the whole question of suffering, whether there is an ending to suffering, and as long as suffering and fear and the pursuit of pleasure exist there cannot be love. K：是的，它可能通过记忆等去运作，没错。 我的意思是，你怎么去发现它有其真实性， 并非只是想象力和浪漫的废话，你怎么去发现？ 要发现这个，我们必须 深入理解整体痛苦的问题， 是否有一个痛苦的结束， 而只要痛苦和恐惧， 和乐趣的追求仍然存在，就不会有爱。
59:26 DB: Well, there are many questions there now. The first point is suffering including pleasure, fear, and I suppose we could include anger and violence and greed in there. We are saying first of all, that all those are the response of memory. They are nothing to do with intelligence. D：是，好，我们现在有很多问题。 第一点是，比方，痛苦， 包括乐趣，恐惧和痛苦，我想 我们还可以加上愤怒，暴力，和贪婪。 现在，我们可以说，首先，所有这些都是记忆的反应。

K：是的。

D：他们与智慧不相干。
59:50 K: They are all part of thought and memory. K：没错，先生，他们都是念头和记忆的一部分。
59:52 DB: And that as long as they are going on, it seems to me, that intelligence cannot operate in thought, or through thought. D：而只要它们继续运作， 在我看来，智慧是不能在念头中操作。

K：没错。

D：通过念头。
1:00:00 K: So there must be freedom from suffering. K：所以必须摆脱痛苦。
1:00:04 DB: Yes, that is a very key point. D：是，好，这是极其关键的一点。
1:00:06 K: That is really a very serious and deep question. Whether it is possible to end suffering, which is the ending of me. K：这确实是一个非常严肃而深入的问题。 是否有可能去结束痛苦， 也就是我的结束。
1:00:22 DB: Yes, again, it may seem repetitious but the feeling is that I am there, and I either suffer or don't suffer. That is, I either enjoy things or suffer. D：是，再次，它似乎是重复，但 那感觉是，我在那里，我在痛苦或不痛苦。 或享受或受苦。
1:00:32 K: Yes, I know that.

DB: Now, I think you are saying that suffering arises from thought, 		K：是的，我明白。

D：现在， 我觉得你是说 痛苦源自于念头，它就是念头。
1:00:41 DB: it is thought.

K: Identified. Attachment. 		K：鉴定。

D：是。

K：执著。
1:00:48 DB: So what is it that suffers? There is this feeling – it is really the opposite of the feeling of pleasure it seems to me. Memory may produce pleasure and then when it doesn't work, when it is frustrated, it produces pain and suffering. D：那么究竟是什么在痛苦？ 有这种感觉 - 它实际上是 乐趣的反面，在我看来， 任何乐趣，念头可以制造乐趣 但它不成功时，当它感到沮丧时，它制造 疼痛和痛苦。

K：疼痛。
1:01:05 K: Not only that – suffering is much more complex, isn't it? What is suffering? The meaning of that word is to have pain, to have grief, to feel utterly lost, lonely. 不仅如此。痛苦比这复杂得多， 不是吗？

D：是。

K：痛苦... 什么是痛苦？

D：是，好，它是...

K：这个词的意义是有疼痛， 有悲伤， 有完全的失落感，孤独。
1:01:33 DB: It seems to me that it is not only pain, but a kind of a total pain, very pervasive. D：是，好，在我看来，它不仅是疼痛， 而是一种全面的疼痛，无孔不入。
1:01:42 K: Suffering is the loss of someone. K：而痛苦是失去某人。
1:01:46 DB: The loss of something very important. D：或失去某样非常重要的东西。
1:01:48 K: Yes, of course. Loss of my wife or loss of my son, brother, or whatever it is, and the desperate sense of loneliness. K：是，当然。失去我的妻子，或失去我的儿子， 兄弟，或任何东西， 以及那绝望的孤独感。
1:02:01 DB: Yes, or else just simply the fact that the whole world is going into such a state. D：是，或者简单的事实是 整个世界都进入那种状态。
1:02:09 K: Of course. I mean, all the wars. K：当然，先生。我是指，所有的战争。
1:02:12 DB: It makes everything meaningless. D：这使得一切变得毫无意义，你看。
1:02:14 K: What a lot of suffering the Falklands War has created. K：马岛战争制造了何其多的苦难。
1:02:18 DB: Yes, all these wars. D：是。好，所有的战争。
1:02:20 K: And wars have been going on for thousands of years. We are carrying on with the same pattern of the last 5000 years or more, of wars. K：而战争已经持续了几千年。 这就是为什么我说我们还是以同样的模式进行着 那经历了五千年或更久的战争。

D：是，现在，我们可以轻易看到，战争中的暴力和仇恨
1:02:38 DB: One can easily see that the violence and hatred in wars will interfere with intelligence.

K: Obviously. 		会干扰智慧。

K：很明显。
1:02:44 DB: It is not quite so obvious. I think some people have felt that by going through suffering D：现在，我想，这并不很明显，有些人认为， 透过苦难的磨练，他们将变得...
1:02:50 DB: people become –

K: Intelligent? 		K：有智慧？

D：...纯净，就好像
1:02:52 DB: purified like metal being refined in the crucible. 从坩埚里提炼出来的金属，对不对？
1:02:57 K: I know. That through suffering you learn. K：我知道。在苦难中学习。
1:03:02 DB: Or you are purified in some way.

K: You are purified. This is, through suffering your ego is banished. 		D：或在某方面你被净化了。

K：你被净化了。 就是，通过苦难你的自我消失了。
1:03:11 DB: Yes, dissolved, refined. It doesn't. People have suffered immensely. How many wars, how many tears, and the destructive nature of governments? D：是，溶解，净化。

K：溶解，不管它是什么。 它没有。人们已经深受其害。 多少战争，多少眼泪， 以及政府的破坏本性？
1:03:30 DB: Yes, they have suffered any number of things. D：是，他们已遭受过各种数量的苦难。
1:03:33 K: Multiply them – unemployment, ignorance, all that. K：加倍那些 - 失业，无知的一切。
1:03:37 DB: Disease, pain, everything. But, you see, what is suffering really? Why does it destroy intelligence, or interfere, prevent it? Why does suffering prevent intelligence? What is going on really? D：是，好，疾病，疼痛，一切。 但是，你看，什么是真正的痛苦呢？ 它为何去破坏智慧，或干扰，或阻碍它呢？ 为什么痛苦阻碍智慧呢？ 这到底是什么一回事？
1:03:51 K: Suffering is a shock, I suffer, I have pain, it is the essence of the me. K：痛苦只去关注 - 是惊恐，是... 我在受苦，我感到疼痛， 这是'我‘的本质。
1:04:05 DB: Yes, the difficulty with suffering is that it is the me that is there that is suffering. And this me is really being sorry for itself in some way. D：是，痛苦难于处理之处是， 那是'我'在那里痛苦。 而在某方面，这个'我'确实在为自己感到难过 。
1:04:14 K: My suffering is different from your suffering. K：我的痛苦与你的痛苦不同。
1:04:16 DB: It isolates itself, yes. And it creates an illusion of some kind. D：而孤立了本身，对。

K：是的。

D：因而它创造了某种错觉。
1:04:21 K: We don't see that suffering is shared by all humanity. K：我们看不出痛苦是全人类共有的。
1:04:26 DB: Yes, but suppose we see it is shared by all humanity? D：是的，但假如我们认为它是全人类共有？
1:04:30 K: Then I begin to question what suffering is. It is not my suffering.

DB: Yes, that is important. In order to understand the nature of suffering I have to get out of this idea that it is my suffering, because as long as I believe it is my suffering I have an illusory notion of the whole thing. 		K：那么我会开始怀疑痛苦是什么。 它不是我的痛苦。

D：是，好，这一点很重要。 为了要了解痛苦的性质 我必须摆脱这是我的痛苦的想法， 因为只要我相信这是我的痛苦 我对整个事情就存有一个虚幻的概念。
1:04:46 K: And I can never end it. K：而我永远不能解决它。

D：好，不能，
1:04:49 DB: If you are dealing with an illusion you can do nothing with it. Now, we have to come back. Why is suffering the suffering of humanity? At first, I feel pain in the tooth, or else I have a loss, or something has happened to me, and the other person seems perfectly happy. 如果你在跟幻觉打交道，你不能对它作什么。 但是，你看，为什么 -我们必须重提。 为什么痛苦，是众人的痛苦？ 首先，我似乎觉得牙齿在疼痛， 或者，我有了损失，或有坏事发生在我身上， 而其他人似乎还是非常快乐。

K：快乐，是的，没错。但是他也有痛苦，他本身的痛苦。
1:05:07 K: But also he is suffering too in his own way. D：是。目前，他并没有察觉它，但他有他的问题。
1:05:10 DB: Yes. At the moment he doesn't see it, but he has his problems too. K：所以痛苦是全人类共有的。
1:05:14 K: So suffering is common to all humanity. D：但是痛苦的普遍性并不足于表示它们是一体的。
1:05:16 DB: But the fact that it is common is not enough to make it all one. K：它是实际。
1:05:20 K: It is actual. D：是的，但我想问，你是不是说
1:05:22 DB: Yes, but I want to say, are you saying that the suffering of mankind is all one, inseparable? 人类的痛苦是一体的，不可分割的？
1:05:27 K: Yes. That is what I have been saying. K：是的，先生。这是我一直在说的。
1:05:29 DB: As is the consciousness of mankind. D：正如全人类的意识一样。

K：是的，没错。
1:05:31 K: Yes, that is right. D：当任何一人痛苦时， 整个人类都在痛苦，对不对？
1:05:32 DB: That when anybody suffers, the whole of mankind is suffering. K：如果一个国家杀死数百数千人...
1:05:37 K: If one country kills hundreds and thousands of human beings... The whole point is: we have suffered from the beginning of time we have suffered, and we haven't solved it. 不，总的来说，我们在痛苦 从时间开始以来，我们一直都在痛苦， 而我们还没有解决它。
1:06:00 DB: That is clear that it hasn't been solved. We haven't solved it. D：现在， 十分明显，它没有得到解决。我们还没有解决它。
1:06:03 K: We haven't ended suffering. K：我们还没有结束痛苦。

D：我觉得你先前所说的，就是使得
1:06:06 DB: The thing you said, which is, the reason we haven't solved it is because we are treating it as personal or as in a small group. That is an illusion. Any attempt to deal with an illusion cannot solve anything. We would like to make it very clear. 我们未能解决它的原因，因为我们把它当作个人的 或小集团的，它就不能... 这是一种错觉。

K：是的。

D：而任何想要处理错觉的意图，解决不了任何东西。 我们希望把它弄得一清二楚。
1:06:22 K: Thought cannot solve anything, psychologically. K：在心理上，念头不能解决任何问题。
1:06:27 DB: You can say that the thought itself divides. Thought is limited and it is not able to see that this suffering is all one. And therefore it divides it up as mine and yours and theirs, and that creates illusion which only multiplies suffering. It seems to me that the statement that suffering of mankind is one, is inseparable from the statement that consciousness of mankind is one. D：你可以说，念头本身分裂。 让我们这样说 - 念头是有限的，而它无法看到 所有痛苦是一体的，对不对？ 因此，它把它分为我的，你的，和他们的。

K：没错。

D：而那制造了错觉，只能使痛苦加倍。 在我看来，全人类的痛苦是一体的说法 与全人类的意识是一体的说法，是不可分割的。
1:06:55 K: We said that. Suffering is part of our consciousness. K：我们说过。痛苦是我们意识的一部分。

D：是。
1:07:01 DB: But one doesn't get the feeling immediately that this suffering belongs to the whole of mankind. 但是我们没有那种直接的感觉 觉得痛苦是属于全人类的，你看。
1:07:08 K: The world is me, I am the world. K：先生，世界就是我，我就是世界。
1:07:10 DB: Yes, you have often said that.

K: Yes. But we have divided it as British earth and French earth, etc. 		D：是，你经常说的。

K：是的。 但是，我们已经把它分为英国土地，和法国土地，
1:07:18 DB: Do you mean by the world, the physical world or the world of society? 和其他的国土。

D：你所指的世界是， 物质世界，还是社会世界？
1:07:21 K: The world of society, the psychological world chiefly. K：社会世界，以心理世界为主。
1:07:27 DB: So, we say the world of society, of human beings, is one. When I say I am that world, what does that mean? D：所以我们说， 社会世界，人类世界，是一体的， 而当我说我是那个世界，那是什么意思？
1:07:37 K: The world is not different from me. K：世界与我并无不同。
1:07:39 DB: The world and I are one, and we are inseparable.

K: Yes. That is real meditation, you must feel this, not just a verbal statement, it is an actuality. I am my brother's keeper. 		D：世界与我是一体的，对不对？

K：对。

D：我们是分不开的。

K：是的。 这才是真正的禅境，你一定要有这种感觉， 不是口头上讲而已：这是一个实际状况。 我是我的兄弟的看管人。
1:08:05 DB: Many religions have said that. D：是，现在，许多宗教都曾说过。
1:08:07 K: That is just a verbal statement, and they don't keep it, they don't do it in their hearts. K：那只是在口头上说说而已，他们从不去看管它， 他们从不在他们内心这样做。
1:08:13 DB: Perhaps some may have done it but in general it is not being done. There may have been a few. D：也许有一些人做了，但普遍上并未落实，对不对？ 我的意思是， 可能有少数人做了。

K：我不知道是否有人...
1:08:20 K: We human beings haven't done it. Our religions actually have prevented it. 我们人类却没有这样做。 实际上我们的宗教阻止它。
1:08:25 DB: Because of division, every religion has its own beliefs and its own organisation.

K: Of course. Its own gods and its own saviours. So, from that, is that intelligence actual, or is it some kind of fanciful projection, hoping that will solve our problems? It is not to me. It is an actuality. Because the ending of suffering means love. 		D：由于划分，每个宗教都有各自的信仰 和各自的组织。

K：当然，当然。 各自的神和各自的救星。

D：是。

K：那么，那个智慧是真实的吗？ 你明白我的问题吗？

D：明白。

K：或者它只是一些花巧的投影， 妄想能够解决我们的问题？ 对于我，它不是这样。它是真实的。 因为痛苦的结束是爱。

D：是，现在，在我们继续之前，让我们澄清有关'我’的一点。
1:09:10 DB: Before we go onto that, we may clear up a point about 'me'. You said, it is not to me. In some sense it seems that you are still defining an individual. 你看，你说‘对于我，它不是这样’。 现在，在某种意义上，你似乎还是定义了一个个人。
1:09:21 K: Yes.

DB: Is that right? 		K：是，是。

D： 这样对吗？
1:09:23 K: When I say 'I' I am using the word 'I' as a means of communication. K：当我说'我'时，我是应用'我'作为一种交流手段。
1:09:31 DB: What does it mean? In some way, let's say that there may be two people, A who is the way you say, and B who is not. D：它是什么意思呢，你看？ 在某种程度上，比方说，那就可能有两个人， 比方说，'A' 是你所应用的说法，而'B'不是，对不对？
1:09:42 K: Yes. K：对。

D：现在‘A’说它不是
1:09:44 DB: Now, that seems to create a division between A and B. - 这似乎在'A'和'B之间制造了分割
1:09:48 K: That is right. But B creates the division. So what is the relationship between the two? K：没错。 但是，那是'B'制造了分割。

D：是，为什么？

K：那么，这两者之间的关系是什么？

D：是。你看，'B'在制造...
1:10:01 DB: B is creating the division by saying, I am a separate person, but it may confuse B further when A says, it is not that way to me. 是，好，'B'在制造分割因为他说， '我是一个独立的人'，但‘B’会更加混淆 当'A'说，'对于我，它不是这样，’ 对不对？
1:10:09 K: Yes, that is the whole point, isn't it, in relationship? You feel that you are not separate, and that you really have this sense of love and compassion, and I haven't got it. I haven't even perceived or gone into this question. What is your relationship to me? That is what I am saying: you have a relationship with me, but I haven't any relationship with you. K：是的。先生，在人与人的关系中正是如此，不是吗？ 你觉得你不是分隔的， 而你真正拥有这样的爱与慈悲， 但我还没有。 我什至没有察觉或探讨过这个问题。 什么是你我之间的关系？

D：是，好...

K：这就是我所说的： 你有一个与我的联系， 但我却没有任何与你的联系。
1:10:51 DB: I think one could say that the person who hasn't seen is almost living in a world of dreams, psychologically, and therefore the world of dreams is not related to the world of being awake. But the fellow who is awake can at least perhaps awaken the other fellow. D：好，是，我想我们可以说，没有觉悟的人 几乎是生活在一个梦幻的世界里， 在心理上，因此梦幻的世界 不能联系清醒的世界。

K：没错。

D：但是这个清醒的家伙 也许至少可以唤醒另一个家伙。
1:11:08 K: You are awake, I am not. Then your relationship with me is very clear. But I have no relationship with you, I cannot. I insist on division, and you don't. K：你是清醒的，我不是。

D：是。

K：那你与我的关系是很清楚的。 但我和你没有关系，我不能。 我坚持要分割，而你没有。
1:11:29 DB: Yes, in some way we have to say the consciousness of mankind has divided itself, it is all one, but it has divided itself by thought. D：是，在某些方面我们不得不说，人类的意识 分割了自己，它是一体的，但它划分了自己...

K：当然，当然。

D：...是念头，对不对？
1:11:38 K: That is what we have been through. K：这是我们经历过的。
1:11:40 DB: Yes, and that is why we are in this situation. D：是的，这就是为何我们会处于这种情况。
1:11:43 K: That is why all the problems that humanity has now, psychologically as well as in other ways, is the result of thought. And we are pursuing the same pattern of thought, and thought will never solve any of these problems. So there is another kind of instrument, which is intelligence. K：这就是为何人类拥有现在所有的问题， 心理上以及其他方面的， 都是念头的结果。 而我们却追求着同样模式的念头， 而念头将永远不能解决那些问题。 因此，有另一种工具， 就是智慧。
1:12:10 DB: That opens up an entirely different subject. D：是， 好，这也开始了一个完全不同的题目。
1:12:13 K: Yes, I know. K：是的，我知道，我知道。
1:12:16 DB: And you also mentioned love as well. D：而你也提到了爱。
1:12:19 K: Yes, I said that.

DB: Or compassion. 		K：是的。我提过它。

D：以及慈悲。
1:12:22 K: Without love and compassion there is no intelligence. And that you cannot be compassionate if you are attached to some religion, if you are tied to a post like an animal tied to a post, and it can think it is compassionate. K：没有爱与慈悲就没有智慧。 而你不能拥有慈悲，如果你执着 某种宗教，某些职位; 你被绑在柱子上， 像一只动物被绑在柱子上， 而它可以幻想自己是慈悲的。
1:12:45 DB: As soon as your self is threatened, then it all vanishes. what you really think is important. D：只要你的自我受到威胁，那一切就消失了... 你的真实想法才是重要的。

K：但是你看，自我隐藏在...
1:12:52 K: The self hides behind...

DB: Other things, noble ideals. 		D：...其他东西的背面。我指的是，崇高的理想。
1:12:57 K: Yes, it has immense capacity to hide itself. So what is the future of mankind? From what one observes it is leading to destruction. K：是的，是的。它有超高的能力去隐藏自己。 那么，什么是人类的未来？ 我们察觉到的是，它正导向灭亡。
1:13:19 DB: Well, that is the way it seems to be going, yes. D：好，那似乎是它的方向，是的。
1:13:21 K: Very gloomy, grim, dangerous. And if one has children, what is their future? To enter into all this? And go through all the misery of it all? So education becomes extraordinarily important. But now education is merely the accumulation of knowledge. K：十分忧郁，冷酷，危险。 如果我们有孩子， 什么是他们的未来？要步入这一切？ 并经历所有的苦难？ 因此，教育变得格外重要。 但是现在的教育却仅仅是知识的积累。
1:13:56 DB: Yes, every instrument that man has invented or discovered or developed has been turned toward destruction. D：是，每个人类所发明，发现， 或开发的工具，都变成了破坏的工具。
1:14:03 K: Yes. Absolutely. They are destroying nature, there are very few tigers now. K：是的，先生。完全正确。 他们正在破坏大自然; 现在很少老虎了。
1:14:14 DB: Very few?

K: Tigers. They are destroying everything. 		K：很少..？

K：老虎和动物。 他们在摧毁一切。

D：他们在摧毁森林
1:14:17 DB: They are destroying forests and agricultural land. Overpopulation. Nobody seems to care. 和农业用地。

K：我知道。 人口过剩。 似乎没有人去理会。
1:14:29 DB: There are two things, one is, people are immersed in their own problems. D：有两样东西 - 一是： 人们都沉浸在自己的问题中，对吗？
1:14:33 K: Immersed in their own little plans to save humanity. K：沉浸在自己拯救人类的小计划中！
1:14:38 DB: Most people are just immersed in their plans to save themselves. Those others have plans to save humanity. But I think also there is a tendency toward despair implicit in what is happening now, in that people don't think anything can be done. D：好，大多数人都只是沉浸在自己的计划中 去自救，但...

K：当然。

D：这些人也有计划拯救人类，但... 我想他们也有着绝望的倾向， 这种倾向隐含在现今的人事中， 使到人们不认为可以完成任何事情。
1:14:54 K: Yes. And if they think something can be done they form little groups and little theories. K：是的。 如果他们以为可以完成什么 他们就会组织小集团，小理论。
1:15:03 DB: There are those who are very confident in what they are doing and those who lack confidence. D：也有一些人非常具有信心 坚信他们的所作所为，也有那些缺乏信心的。
1:15:08 K: Like most prime ministers are very confident. They don't know what they are doing really. K：像大多数的首相就非常具有信心。 他们其实不知道自己在做什么。
1:15:14 DB: But then most people haven't much confidence in what they are doing.

K: I know. If you have tremendous confidence I accept your confidence and go with you. 		D：但是大部分人都没有多大的信心 对他们的所作所为缺乏信心。

K：我知道。 如果你非常有信心 我接受你的信心，跟你一起走。
1:15:22 DB: Yes, but since thought is limited... D：是的，但因为念头是有限的...
1:15:29 K: That is, the future of man, mankind, the future of humanity, I wonder if anybody is concerned with it. Or each person, or each group, is only concerned with its own survival? K：不，先生，那是，人类的未来， 全人类，全人类的未来， 我怀疑任何人会去关注它。 或者每个个人，每个集团，只关心自己的生存而已？
1:15:51 DB: I think the first concern is, and almost always has been, with survival in either the individual or the group. That has been the history of mankind. D：我认为大家最先关注的是，几乎一向来都是， 个人或集团的生存。 你看，这一直是人类的历史。
1:16:00 K: Therefore perpetual wars, perpetual insecurity. K：所以有永久的战争， 永久的不安全。
1:16:06 DB: Yes, but this is, as you said, the result of thought, which makes the mistake on the basis of being incomplete, to identify the self with the group, and so on. D：是，但这是，正如你所说，念头的结果， 它因为根本上的不完整而犯下错误， 错把集团当成自我，等等。
1:16:17 K: You happen to listen to all this. You agree to all this. You see the truth of all this. Those in power will not even listen to you. K：你碰巧聆听了这一切。你同意这一切。 你看到这一切的真理。 当权者却根本不听你的。
1:16:28 DB: No. D：不。
1:16:30 K: They are creating more and more misery, more and more the world becoming dangerous. What is the point of you and I agreeing, seeing something true? This is what people are asking: what is the point of you and I seeing something to be true, and what effect has it? K：他们正在制造越来越多的苦难， 世界越来越变得危机重重。 你和我认同了，理解了真理，又有什么意义呢？ 这是人们都在问的：你和我看到真理 有什么意义？，有什么功效？
1:16:52 DB: Yes, well, it seems to me that if we think in terms of the effects we are bringing in time. D：是，好，在我看来， 如果我们谈到功效，我们就引进了时间。
1:16:59 K: Yes, and also it is a wrong question. K：是的， 而且它是一个错误的问题。
1:17:02 DB: We are bringing in the very thing which is behind the trouble. That is, the first response would be: we quickly must get in and do something to change the course of events. D：我们带出了烦恼后面的真相。

K：烦恼，是的。

D：就是，我们的第一反应是：我们一定要迅速进入 采取行动来改变事件的过程。
1:17:13 K: Therefore form a society, foundation, organisation, etc. K：所以去组织社团，基金会， 机构，等等。
1:17:17 DB: But our mistake is, to do that we must think about something, and that thought is incomplete. We don't really know what is going on, and people have made theories about it, but they don't know. D：但你看，我们的错误就是认为 我们必须去进行思考，而念头却是不完整的。 我们其实不知道真实情况， 人们也作出相关的理论，但他们也没有了解真相。
1:17:27 K: Come down to it: if that is a wrong question, then as a human being, who is mankind, what is my responsibility? Apart from effect, etc. K：没有，但归根结底：如果那是一个错误的问题， 那么作为一个人， 作为人类， 我的责任是什么？

D：好，我想，这等于...

K：但是，除了功效，等等。
1:17:49 DB: Yes, we can't look towards effects. But it is the same as with A and B, that A sees and B does not. Now, suppose A sees something and most of the rest of mankind does not. One could say mankind is in some way dreaming, asleep. D：是，我们不能指望功效。 但这和'A'与'B'的论题是一样的，'A'看得见而'B'却看不见。

K：是的。

D：现在假设 'A'看到某物，而大多数的人类却看不到。 那么，看起来，我们可以说，以某方面来讲，人类正在做梦，睡觉， 你知道，这是在做梦。

K：他陷入幻象。
1:18:12 K: He is caught in illusion. D：幻象。而重点是，
1:18:14 DB: And the point is that, if somebody sees something then his responsibility is to help awake the others up. To get out of the illusion. 如果有人看到某物， 那么他的责任是帮忙唤醒别人，对不对？ 脱离幻象。
1:18:28 K: That is just it. This has been the problem. That is why the Buddhists have projected the idea of the Bodhisattva who is compassionate, and is the essence of all compassion, and he is waiting to save humanity. It sounds nice. It is a happy feeling that there is somebody doing this. But in actuality we won't do anything that is not comfortable, satisfying, secure, both psychologically and physically. K：正是如此。 我的意思是，向来就是这个问题。 这就是为什么佛教徒投射了 菩萨的理念， 菩萨富有慈悲心，并且代表所有慈悲的本怀， 而他正在等待拯救人类。 这听起来很不错。这是一种幸福的感觉 因为有人这样做。 但实际上，我们是... 我们是不会去做任何不舒服，不满意，不安全的事， 在心理上以及身体上。

D：是，好，基本上，那是幻象的来源。
1:19:21 DB: That is the source of the illusion, basically. K：要怎样才能使他人看到这一切？
1:19:25 K: How does one make another see all this? They haven't time, they haven't the energy, they haven't even the inclination, they want to be amused. How does one make 'X' see this whole thing so clearly that he says, All right, I have got it, I will work. I am responsible, etc. I think that is the tragedy of those who see and those who don't. 他们没有时间，他们没有能量， 他们甚至没有那种倾向。他们只希望被逗乐。 要怎样才能使'X'看清楚这整个真相，使他说， ‘好，我明白了，我会努力。 我要负责，' 等等。 我认为这是一场 看到的人和未看到的人所演的悲剧。