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BR83CB2 - 是否存在意识的进化？
与大卫•博姆的第二次对话
英国布洛克伍德公园
1983年6月20日



0:18 Krishnamurti: Last time we were talking about the future of man. All the psychologists, as far as I can understand, are they really concerned with the future of man? Or are they concerned with the human being conforming to the present society, or going beyond that? K：先生，上次我们是在谈论 关于人的未来。 所有的心理学家，据我所能了解， 他们真的有关心人的未来吗？ 或者，他们关注的是 人类对 现今社会的适应，或超越？
0:58 David Bohm: I think that most psychologists evidently want the human being to conform to this society, but I think some psychologists – some of whom will be listening to us – are thinking of going beyond that, to transform the consciousness of mankind. D：好，我认为大多数的心理学家 显然希望人类 去顺应这个社会，但我也觉得有些心理学家， 其中有一些会去聆听我们，并考虑去 超越，去改造人类的意识。
1:13 K: Can the consciousness of mankind be changed through time? That is one of the questions we should discuss this evening. K：人类的意识能否通过时间去改变？ 这是我们今晚应该去讨论的问题。
1:22 DB: Yes. We have actually discussed it, last time, and I think what came out was: with regard to consciousness, time is not relevant, that it is a kind of illusion. We discussed the illusion of becoming. D：是。实际上，我们上一次已经讨论过它，而 我认为那次的结论是，人类的意识... 对于意识，时间是不实际的， 它是一种错觉。 我们讨论了形成的幻象。
1:44 K: We are saying, aren't we – let's be clear – that the evolution of consciousness is a fallacy. K：是的，我们说， 不是吗？我们必须说明 意识的进化是一个谬论。
1:57 DB: As through time, right? Though physical evolution is not. K：如通过时间，对不对？

K：对。

D：通过时间，虽然物理演化却并非如此。
2:03 K: Yes. Can we put it this way, much more simply: There is no psychological evolution, or the evolution of the psyche. K：是的。 我们能不能这样说，更浅白地说？ 我们没有心理的进化， 或心灵的进化。
2:16 DB: Yes, and since the future of mankind depends on the psyche, it seems then that the future of mankind is not going to be determined through actions in time. And then that left us the question: what will we do? D：是。由于人类的未来取决于心灵， 那么看来，人类的未来将不会是 通过时间的行动来确定。

K：时间，没错。

D：那就给我们留下这个问题：我们该怎么办？
2:32 K: Now, let's proceed from there. K：现在，让我们从那里开始。

D：是。
2:37 K: Shouldn't we first distinguish between the brain and the mind? K：我们不应该首先来区分 大脑和心吗？
2:45 DB: That distinction has been made, and it is not clear. Of course, there are several views. One view is to say that the mind is just a function of the brain – that is the materialist view. There is another view which says mind and brain are two different things. D：是，好，那已经作出区分，却还不很清楚。 现在，当然，人们有多种的观点。 一种观点是说心只是大脑的一个功能 - 这是唯物主义的观点。 还有另一种观点是说： 心和大脑是两回事。
3:01 K: Yes, I think they are two different things. D：是的，我认为它们是两个不同的东西。
3:05 DB: But there must be... D：但那必定有...
3:07 K: A contact between the two. A relationship between the two. K：...两者之间的接触。两者之间的关系。
3:11 DB: We don't necessarily imply any separation of the two. D：因此，我们并无肯定地表示两者是分开的。
3:16 K: First let's see the brain. I am really not an expert on the structure of the brain and all that kind of thing. But one can observe one's own activity of the brain, that it is really like a computer that has been programmed and remembers. K：没有， 让我们先来看看大脑。

D：是。

K：我其实不是专家 大脑结构和有关方面的专家。 但是，我们可以内观， 我们可以观察自己大脑的活动， 它真的很像一台电脑 一台已编程和拥有记忆的电脑。
3:43 DB: Certainly a large part of the activity is that way, but one is not certain that all of it is that way.

K: No. And it is conditioned.

DB: Yes. 		D：好，当然其中很大一部分的活动是这样，但是 我们却不能肯定它完全是这样的。

K：不，而它被调教规划了。

D：是。
3:54 K: Conditioned by past generations, by the society, by the newspapers, by the magazines, by all the activities and pressure from the outside. It is conditioned. K：被祖先调教，被社会规划， 被报纸，被杂志，一切的活动， 以及外来的压力调教规划。 它已被调整。
4:10 DB: What do you mean by this conditioning? D：是，现在，你所指的调教是什么意思，你看...
4:12 K: It is programmed, it is made to conform to a certain pattern, it lives entirely on the past, modifying itself with the present and going on. K：它被编程；它被规划为特定的模式; 它完全模仿过去而活， 依照现况修改自己，然后继续活下去。
4:32 DB: We have agreed that some of this conditioning is useful and necessary. D：是，现在，我们已经认同有些的调教 是有用和必要的。

K：当然。
4:36 K: Of course. We discussed that last time. 我们上一次讨论过这个。

D：是，而现在...
4:38 DB: But the conditioning which determines the self, which determines 但是那些确定自我的调教， 你知道，确定心灵的调教...
4:45 K: The psyche.

DB: You call it the psyche. 		K：心灵。

D：你把它叫作心灵。
4:48 K: Let's call it for the moment the psyche. The self. K：就让我们暂时称它为心灵。自我。
4:51 DB: The self, the psyche, that conditioning is what you are talking about. That may not only be unnecessary but harmful. D：这个自我，心灵，调教 就是你正在谈论的东西。 它可能不仅是不必要，而且是有害的。
4:58 K: Yes, that is what we were discussing too. The emphasis on the psyche – as we are doing now – and giving importance to the self is creating great damage in the world, because it is separative and therefore it is constantly in conflict, not only within itself but with the society, with the family and so on. K：是的。那也是我们所讨论过的。

D：是。

K：人们对心灵的重视，就如我们现在的所作所为， 以及对自我的推举， 已在世界上造成巨大破坏， 因为它是分裂性的 因此它在不断制造冲突， 不仅和本身，也和社会， 和家人起冲突，等等，等等。
5:34 DB: Yes. And it is also in conflict with nature. D：是。它也与自然起冲突。
5:37 K: With the whole universe, if you can call it. K：与自然，与整个宇宙，如果你可以如此称呼它。
5:40 DB: I think we discussed last time that the conflict arose because D：我想我们上一次讨论时说过，冲突是源自...
5:44 K: of the division. K：...分割。
5:46 DB: The division arising because thought is limited, being based on this conditioning, on this knowledge and memory, it is limited. D：分割的产生，由于念头是有限的。

K：念头是有限的。没错。

D：它是基于 这个调教，知识和记忆， 它是有限的，对。

K：记忆，对。
5:54 K: And experience is limited, therefore knowledge is limited, memory and thought. Thought is limited, and the very structure and the nature of the psyche is the movement of thought in time. 以及经验是有限的，因此知识是有限的， 记忆与念头。念头是有限的。 而心灵的极结构和性质 是念头的运动。

D：是。

K：在时间里。
6:11 DB: I would like to ask a question: when you discuss the movement of thought, it doesn't seem clear to me what is moving. I discussed the movement of my hand, that is a real movement. It is clear what is meant. But when I discuss the movement of thought, it seems to me we are discussing something which is a kind of illusion, because you have said, becoming is the movement of thought. D：是，现在我想问一个问题。 当你在谈念头的运动时， 我并不清楚到底是什么在运动。 当我谈我的手的运动时，那是实际的运动。 很清楚是指什么。但现在， 当我谈念头的运动时，在我看来 我们是在讨论一种幻觉的东西， 因为你说过形成是念头的运动。

K：整个形成都是，当然。

D：所以如果你说...
6:35 K: That is what I mean, the movement in becoming. K：这正是我的意思，形成中的运动。
6:38 DB: But you are saying that movement is in some way illusory, aren't you? D：但是这个运动，你说，在某种程度上是虚幻的，不是吗？
6:41 K: Yes, of course. K：是的，当然，当然。
6:42 DB: But it is rather like the movement on the screen which is projected from the projector, and we say that there are no objects moving across the screen, but the only real movement is the turning of the projector. Now, can we say that there is a real movement in the brain which is projecting all this, which is the conditioning? D：但它看起来更像是在屏幕上的 从电影相机投射出来的运动。

K： 屏幕上，相机。

D：我们说在屏幕上没有实物在移动， 而真正的运动只有投影机的转动而已。 现在我们能不能说，在大脑中有真正的运动 它投射了这一切，它规划着我们？
7:02 K: That is what I want to find out. Let's discuss that a bit. K：所以，这就是我想去了解的。让我们来讨论一下。
7:06 K: We both agree, or see, that the brain is conditioned. K：我们都同意，或看到，大脑是被调教规划的。
7:10 DB: And we mean by that that really, it has been impressed physically and chemically. D：我们的意思是，那是真正烙印在生理上。

K：生理上，以及...

D： 化学上。
7:17 K: Genetically, as well as psychologically. K：...基因上，以及心理上。
7:20 DB: Well, what is the difference of physically and psychologically? D：好，生理和心理有何差异？
7:24 K: Psychologically, it is centred in the self, and the constant assertion of the self is the movement, is the conditioning. K：在心理上，它是 以自我为中心。 对不对？

D：对。

K：而自我的不断声明 就是那个运动，那个调教规划。
7:51 DB: Yes, but in so far as we experience it, that is an illusion, right? D：是，但根据我们的经验，这是一个错觉，对不对？
7:56 K: We said that is an illusion. K：我们说，那是一种错觉。
7:57 DB: But there is some real movement happening inside. The brain, for example, is doing something. It has been conditioned physically and chemically and something is happening physically and chemically when we are thinking of the self. D：但是却有一种真正的内在运动。 大脑，例如，在做一些事情。 它已在生理上和化学上被调理。

K：化学上，是的。

D：而在生理和化学方面会产生一种运作 当我们在思考自我时，对不对？
8:15 K: Are you saying, are you asking rather: the brain and the self are two different things? K：你是不是说，你更像是在问： 大脑和自我是不是两回事？
8:25 DB: No, I am saying the self is the result of conditioning the brain. D：不，我是说自我是调节大脑的结果。
8:30 K: Yes. The self is conditioning the brain. K：是的。自我在调节大脑。
8:34 DB: Yes. But does the self exist? D：是。但这自我有存在吗，你看？
8:38 K: No. K：没有，没有。
8:39 DB: But the conditioning of the brain, as I see it, is involving with an illusion which we call the self. D：但是大脑的调节，在我看来， 是涉及一种幻觉，我们称之为自我。
8:45 K: That is right. Can that conditioning be dissipated? K：没错。没错。这个调节能被消除吗？
8:52 DB: Yes.

K: That is the whole question. 		D：能。

K：这是整个问题。
8:54 DB: And it really has to be dissipated in some physical and chemical and neurophysiological sense. Now, the first reaction of any scientific person would be: it looks unlikely that we could dissipate it by the sort of thing we are doing. Some scientists might feel maybe we will discover drugs, or new genetic changes, or deep knowledge of the structure of the brain, and that way we could perhaps hope to do something. I think that idea might be current among some people. D：这的确必须在某种物理和化学， 和神经生理的层次上，去消除掉它。

K：是的，是的。

D：现在，任何科学人士的第一反应会是： 看起来，我们不太可能以我们目前拥有的 能耐去消除它，你看。某些科学家会认为，有可能 将来我们会发现药物，或新的基因变化， 或对大脑结构有更深入的了解。 那么一来，我们也许可以有所作为，对不对？ 我觉得这是现今一些人的想法。
9:23 K: Will that change the human behaviour? K：这是否能改变人类的行为？
9:26 DB: Well, why not? I think some people believe it might. D：好，为什么不呢？你看，我认为一些人相信它可能。
9:32 K: Wait a minute, that is the whole point. It might – which means in the future. K：等一下，这是整个重点。 它可能，就是指在未来。
9:38 DB: Yes. It would take time to discover all this. D：是。那一切需要时间去发现。

K：去发现那一切。但在此刻
9:42 K: In the meantime, man is going to destroy himself. 人将毁灭自己。
9:45 DB: They might hope that he will manage to do it in time. Because they could also criticise what we are doing, the same point, saying what good can it do? It doesn't seem to affect anybody, and certainly not in time to make a big difference. That is a question that would arise. D：他们可能希望他能来得及发现它，你看。 （一同笑） 因为他们也可以批评我们现在所作的事， 基于同样的论点，质疑它到底有什么好处？ 它似乎不能影响任何人， 当然也不能及时产生巨大的差别。 你看，这是一个可能出现的问题。 假如，为了争议而争议...
10:09 K: We two are very clear about it.

DB: Yes. 		K：我们两个都十分清楚这点。

D：是。
10:13 K: In what way does it affect humanity? K：它以何种方式影响着人类？
10:15 DB: Will it affect mankind in time, to really save... D：现在，是否能及时影响人类，去真正打救...
10:19 K: Certainly not. Obviously not. K：当然不能。显然不能。
10:21 DB: Then why should we be doing it? D：好，那么我们为何还要去做呢？
10:24 K: Because this is the right thing to do. K：因为这是应该做的事情。
10:26 DB: Independently. D：自主地。

K：自主地。
10:28 K: It has nothing to do with reward and punishment. 它与奖励和惩罚无关。
10:31 DB: Or with goals.

K: Yes. 		D：也与那些目标无关。

K：是的。
10:35 DB: You do the right thing, even though we don't know what the outcome will be.

K: That is right. 		D：正如你去做正确的事，即使我们不知道 结果将是什么，对不对？

K：是的。
10:39 DB: You are saying that there is no other way, right? D：你是不是说没有别的办法，对不对？
10:42 K: We are saying that there is no other way, that is right. K：我们说没有别的办法，没错。
10:45 DB: We should make that clear. For example, some psychologists would feel that by enquiring into this sort of thing, we could bring about an evolutionary transformation of consciousness. D：是，好，我们应该使它足够明确。 看，例如，某些心理学家会觉得，通过查询 深入这类事情，我们可以实现 进化的意识转变，对吗？
10:59 K: We come back to that point that through time we hope to change consciousness. K：我们又回到那点，即是我们希望 通过时间去改变意识。
11:07 DB: Yes.

K: We question that. 		D：是。

K：我们质疑这个。
11:10 DB: We have questioned that, and are saying that we are all caught in becoming and illusion, and we will not know what we are doing. Could we say the same thing would hold even for those scientists who are trying to do it physically and chemically or structurally, that they themselves are still caught in this, and through time they are caught in trying to become better. They will not know what they are doing really. D：我们质疑过这个，并且说 时间将不可避免地被涉及， 我们都会陷入形成和假象中， 我们将不会知道自己在做什么。 现在我们能不能说，同样的事情也会发生在他们身上，就算是这些科学家 试图以物理方法和化学方法 或某种结构方法去进行; 但他们自己还是身陷其中， 通过时间而陷入那妄想改善的意图中？

K：是的，没错。没错。（笑）

D：他们不会知道自己其实正在做什么。
11:38 K: Both the experimentalists and the psychologists and ourselves, they are all trying to become something. K：无论是实验者和心理学家以及我们自己， 都是试图去成为卓越的人。
11:47 K: Yes, though it may not seem obvious at first. It may seem that they are really just disinterested or unbiased observers working on the problem, but underneath you feel there is the desire to become better on the part of the person who is doing it, but he is not free of that. D：是的，尽管一开始它可能不很明显。 看起来他们确实只是无私 或不带偏见的观察者，你知道，努力去解决问题， 但内心深处，你觉得有一种想变得更好的欲望， 作为一个解决问题的当事人。

K：当然，当然。

D：这点上，他不是自由的。
12:06 K: That is just it. They are not free of that. K：正是这个。在这点上，他们不是自由的。
12:08 DB: And that desire will give rise to self-deception and illusion and so on. D：而这种欲望会产生自我误导 以及幻象，等等。
12:17 K: So where are we now? That any form of becoming is an illusion, and the becoming implies time, time for the psyche to change – we are saying time is not necessary. K：那么我们现在身处何处？ 任何形式的改变都是一种幻觉， 而形成意味着时间， 让心灵改变的时间... 我们说时间是不需要的。
12:36 DB: Yes, now that ties up with the other question of the mind and the brain. The brain clearly is to be understood as an activity in time, as a physical, chemical, complex process. D：是，现在，这与其他关于 心和大脑的问题连贯起来了。 你看，大脑显然应该被理解为 一个时间的活动，一个复杂的物理化学的过程。
12:52 K: I think the mind is separate from the brain. K：我想，心和大脑分开了。
12:56 DB: What does it mean, separate, that it is in contact? D：好，这是什么意思，分开？也就是说，它在接触。
12:59 K: Separate in the sense the brain is conditioned and the mind is not. K：分开是指大脑被调节规划，而心却没有。
13:04 DB: Let's say the mind has a certain independence of the brain is what you are saying, that even if the brain is conditioned... D：好，比方说，心相对于脑有一定的自主性， 如你所说，那么即使大脑被调节规划...
13:10 K: The other is not.

DB: It need not be conditioned. 		K：...另一个却没有。

D：它并不一定被调节规划。

K：...调节规划。
13:13 DB: Now, on what basis do you say that? D：现在，你根据什么这样说呢？
13:21 K: No, let's begin not on what basis do I say that. K：不， 我们不要从我这么说的根据开始。
13:25 DB: Or what makes you say it? D：好，什么使到你这么说呢，对不对？
13:27 K: As long as one's brain, or the brain is conditioned, it is not free. K：只要一个人的大脑，或我们的大脑被调教过，它就不自由了。
13:35 DB: Yes. D：是。
13:37 K: And the mind is free. K：而心是自由的。

D：是，这是你说过的。
13:39 DB: Yes, that is what you are saying. Now, the brain not being free means it is not free to enquire in an unbiased way. 现在，你看，大脑不自由意味着它不能自由地 以不偏不倚的态度去查询。
13:46 K: I will go into it. Let's enquire what is freedom. K：我将会深入讨论它。现在让我们查询什么是自由。
13:49 DB: Yes. D：是。
13:50 K: Freedom to enquire as you point out, freedom to investigate, and it is only in freedom there is deep insight. K：查询的自由，正如你所指出，自由去进行调查， 而只有在自由中才能有深层的洞察。
14:00 DB: Yes, that is clear, because if you are not free to enquire, if you are biased, then you are limited. In an arbitrary way. D：是，那是十分明显的，因为如果你不能自由地查询， 如果你有偏见，那么你是有限的。

K：有限的。

D：随便什么方面，你知道。
14:10 K: So, as long as the brain is conditioned its relationship to the mind is limited. K：所以只要大脑被调节规划 它与心的关系是有限的。
14:20 DB: We have the relationship of the brain to the mind and also the other way round. D：是，现在，我们有大脑与心的关系， 也有相反的关系。

K：是的，是的。
14:26 K: But the mind being free has a relationship to the brain. 但自由的心与大脑有关系。
14:31 DB: Yes. We say the mind is free in some sense, not subject to the conditioning of the brain. Now, one could ask a question: what is the nature of the mind? For example I could ask, is the mind located inside the body or is it in the brain? D：是。现在我们说，心是自由的，在某种意义上，它不受 大脑所调节。

K：是的。

D：现在我们可以问一个问题：什么是心的本质？ 例如，我可以问：心是不是位于身体之内， 或者是在大脑之中？
14:46 K: No, it is nothing to do with the body or the brain. K：不，它与身体或大脑无关。
14:48 DB: Has it to do with space or time? D：那它与空间和时间有关吗？
14:52 K: Space – just a minute – it has to do with space and silence. K：空间 - 等一下 - 空间 - 稍等一下。 它与空间和寂静有关。 这两个因素是...
15:07 DB: But not time, right?

K: Not time. Time belongs to the brain. 		D：但时间不是，对不对？

K： 时间不是。 时间是属于大脑的。
15:14 DB: You say space and silence. What kind of space? It is not the space in which we see light moving. D：现在，你说到空间和寂静，到底是什么样的空间呢？ 它不是我们所看到的生命运作的空间。

K：不，空间...
15:24 K: Let's look around the other way. Thought can invent space. 让我们转以别的方式来看它。 念头可以创造空间。
15:34 DB: In addition, we have the space that we see, and thought can invent different kinds of space. D：好，此外，还有我们所见的空间， 而念头可以发明各种空间。
15:40 K: And space from here to there. K：从这里到那里的空间。
15:42 DB: Yes, the space through which we move, physically. D：是，我们身体活动的空间。
15:45 K: Space also between two noises. K：也有两个噪音之间的空间。
15:48 DB: Between two sounds. D：两个声音之间。

K：两个声音。
15:51 DB: That is the interval. That would be called the interval between two sounds. D：好，这是音程，他们称之为音程。 那应该被称为两个声音之间的音程。
15:57 K: Yes, interval between two noises. Two thoughts. Two notes. K：是的，两个噪音之间的音程。

D：两个噪声。

K：两个念头。

D：两个念头。

K：两个音符。

D：是。
16:07 K: Space between two people. K：两个人之间的空间。

D：是，墙壁之间的空间。
16:09 DB: Yes, space between the walls. K：等等。但是，这种空间不是心的空间。
16:12 K: And so on. But that kind of space is not the space of the mind. D：你说它不是有限的，但它不是一个间隔。
16:18 DB: You say it is not limited. K：没错。我并不想用‘有限’这个词。
16:20 K: I didn't want to use the word limited. D：但我认为它已被暗示了。

K：是的。
16:22 DB: But it is implied. It is not in the nature of being bounded by something. D：它本质上是不受其他东西所约束。
16:27 K: No, it is not bounded by the psyche. K：不，它不受心灵所约束。
16:31 DB: But is it bounded by anything?

K: No. 		D：心灵约束。但是，它有没有被任何东西所约束呢？

K：没有。

D：没有。 现在，你所说的心灵是被约束的，
16:36 DB: The psyche you say is bounded because we have said it is limited and so on. 因为我们说过，心灵是有限的，等等，对不对？
16:41 K: So can the brain – that is what I want to find out, discuss rather, talk over – can the brain, with all its cells conditioned, can those cells radically change? K：所以大脑能不能 -这是我要去了解， 或去讨论，去摊开来谈- 大脑能不能， 在它的细胞全被调节规划的情况下，这些细胞可以从根本上改变？
16:56 DB: We have often discussed this. It is not certain that all the cells are conditioned. For example, some people think that only a small part of the cells are being used and the others are inactive, dormant. D：是，好，我们讨论过这个多次。 但是我们不能肯定那些细胞全被调节规划。 例如，某些人认为只有一些 或某部分的脑细胞在被应用， 而其他的细胞却不活跃，处于休眠状态。

K：用尽，或只是偶尔触及。
17:10 K: Or just touched occasionally. D：只是偶尔触及。
17:13 DB: But those cells that are conditioned, whatever they may be, evidently dominate consciousness now. 但是，那些被规划的细胞，不论是怎样的规划， 显然在主宰着意识，对不对？
17:19 K: Yes, can those cells be changed? K：对，这些细胞能不能被改变？

D：能。
17:24 K: We are saying that they can, through insight. Insight being out of time, it is not the result of remembrance, it is not an intuition, or desire, or hope, it is nothing to do with any time and thought. K：我们说它们能，通过洞察。

D：是，现在...

K：在时间以外的洞察; 不是记忆的结果; 不是一种直觉， 或欲望，或希望; 它与时间和念头毫无关系。

D：是，现在，你所说的洞察，和心有关吗？
17:54 DB: You say insight – is it of the mind? Is it of the nature of mind, activity of mind? 它是心的本质，对不对？- 心的活动？
18:00 K: Yes. K：是的。
18:02 DB: Therefore you are saying mind can act in the matter of the brain. D：所以你是说心能在大脑中操作。
18:06 K: Yes, we said that earlier. K：是的，以前我们曾说过。

D：是，但我们不得不...
18:08 DB: Yes, but this is a difficult point – how mind is able to act in matter. 但这是一个难处，你看。 心如何能够在脑中操作？
18:18 K: It is able to act on the brain, say, for instance, take any crisis or any problem. Problem – the root meaning of it is something thrown at you. And we meet it with all the remembrance of the past, with our bias, and so on. And therefore the problem multiplies itself. You may solve one problem, in the very solution of one problem, of that particular problem, other problems arise, as they are doing in politics and so on. Now, to approach the problem, or to have perception of the problem without any past memories and thoughts interfering or projecting in perception of the problem. K：它能够操作大脑... 比方说， 拿任何危机或问题作例子。 问题 - 它的根本意思是， 如你所知，是你被扔某物。 而我们面对这件事时，会参照过去的回忆， 与偏见，等等。 因而那个问题变得加倍复杂。 你或者能够解决一个问题，但问题解决方案本身， 这个问题解决的同时，其他的问题会出现， 这是他们在政治界所作的事，等等，等等。对不对？ 现在，去处理这个问题， 或是生起对这个问题的知觉 不让任何过去的记忆和念头来干扰 或投影...在这问题的知觉中。
19:22 DB: Yes. That implies that perception also is of the mind. D：是。现在，这意味着知觉也是心的活动
19:27 K: That is right. 而不是...

K：是的，没错。
19:28 DB: Are you more or less saying that the brain is a kind of instrument of the mind? D：你大概是说，大脑是一种 心的工具？你是不是这样说呢？
19:37 K: Instrument of the mind when the brain is not self-centred. K：心的工具 当大脑不以自我为中心时。
19:44 DB: Yes, if we think of all this conditioning, the conditioning may be thought of as the brain exciting itself and keeping itself going just from the programme, and this occupies all of its capacities. D：是，好，你看，当我们思考这些调节规划时 这些调节规划可以被理解为大脑自我亢奋 和维持自己依从程序继续下去。 这占去了它所有的能力。

K：我们所有的日子，相当，是的。
20:00 K: All our days, quite. D：大脑的全部能力。
20:01 DB: The whole capacity of the brain. It is rather like a radio receiver which can generate its own noise, it would not pick up a signal. Now, would this analogy be at all... 它好象一个能制造噪音的无线电接收器， 却接收不到半点信号。现在，这个比喻有没有完整...
20:12 K: Not quite. Not very.

DB: It is not very good. 		K：不尽然。不是很...

D：不是很好，但...

K：你看，先生，你可否再深入一点？
20:20 K: Would you go into this a little bit? Experience is always limited. I may blow up that experience into a kind of fantastic affair and then set up a shop to sell my experience, but that experience is limited. And so knowledge is always limited. And this knowledge is operating in the brain. This knowledge is the brain. And thought is also part of the brain, and that thought is limited. So the brain is operating in a very, very small area. 经验总是有限的。对不对？ 我可以把经验夸大成一种奇妙的事物 然后开店去贩卖我的经验， 但经验是有限的。 所以知识总是有限的。 而这些知识在大脑中运行。 这知????识就是大脑。 对不对？ 而念头也是大脑的一部分，以及念头是有限的。 因此，大脑是在一个非常，非常小的范围内经营。
21:13 DB: Yes. What prevents it from operating in a broader area? What is preventing it from operating in an unlimited area? D：是。什么阻止它在更宽阔的地方经营呢？ 什么阻止它在一个无限的区域经营呢？
21:23 K: Thought. K：念头。

D：念头。但是大脑
21:25 DB: The brain, it seems to me, is running on its own, from its own programme. 在我看来，是以本身的方案，独自运作，对不对？
21:30 K: Yes, like a computer that is running on its own programme. K：对，就像一台运行本身程序的电脑。
21:34 DB: Now, essentially what you are asking is that the brain should really be responding to the mind. D：是，现在，基本上，你所要求的是 大脑应该对心有所反应。
21:43 K: That it can only respond if it is free from the thought which is limited. K：它只能有所反应，如果它已摆脱 有限的念头。
21:51 DB: Yes, so the programme does not dominate it. We are going to still need that programme. D：是的，那么程序就不能主导它。 你看，我们却仍然需要那个程序。
21:55 K: Of course, we need it for...

DB: Many things, yes. 		K：当然，当然。我们需要它来做... 我们这样说过。

D：很多事情，是的。 但是智慧...
22:06 DB: Is intelligence from the mind then? 智慧是不是由心而生？
22:09 K: Yes, intelligence is the mind. K：是的，智慧就是心。

D：就是心。
22:12 K: Now we must go into something else. Because compassion is related to intelligence. There is no intelligence without compassion. And compassion can only be when there is love which is completely free from all remembrances, personal jealousies and all that kind of thing. K：现在那就进入... -我们必须进入别的论题。 因为慈悲和智慧是相关的。 世界上没有缺少慈悲的智慧。 而当爱存在时，慈悲才能存在， 爱是完全不受任何回忆所约束， 不受个人的嫉妒，以及那些同类的东西所约束。
22:45 DB: Is all that compassion, love, also of the mind? D：现在，所有的慈悲，爱，是否也是心？
22:49 K: Of the mind. And you cannot be compassionate if you are attached to any particular experience or any particular ideal. K：也是心。而你不可能慈悲，如果你还在 执著你的经验，或执著你的理想。
22:59 DB: Yes, that is again the programme that is holding us. D：是，好，那又是程序在阻止我们。
23:03 K: Yes. Say, for instance, there are those people who go to various poverty-ridden countries and work, work, work, and they call that compassion. But they are attached or tied to a particular form of religious belief, and therefore that is merely pity, sympathy, but it is not compassion. K：是的。 比如说，有些人离乡背井 到不同的贫困国家去 他们不停地工作，工作，而他们称之为慈悲。 但他们却是归属或附属于某个形态的 宗教信仰， 因此，那仅是怜悯， 同情，但它不是慈悲。
23:31 DB: Yes, I understand that. We have here two things which can be somewhat independent: there is the brain and the mind, though they make contact. Intelligence and compassion, we say, come from beyond the brain. I would like to go into the question of how they are making contact. D：是，好，我理解这一点。 我们这里有两样东西 两样有些独立的东西。 我们有大脑和心，虽然它们互相接触。 智慧和慈悲，我们说，却是来自大脑以外的。 现在，那么，我希望能够讨论这个问题 关于它们是如何接触的。

K：啊！
23:59 K: Contact can only exist between the mind and the brain when the brain is quiet. 心和大脑之间的接触只能发生 在大脑寂静之时。
24:05 DB: Yes, that is the condition for making it, that is the requirement for making it. The brain has got to be quiet. D：是，这是实现它的条件， 这是实现它的要求。 现在，那么，大脑必须进入寂静。
24:13 K: Quiet is not a trained quietness. Not a self-conscious, meditative desire for silence. It is a natural outcome of understanding one's own conditioning. K：先生，寂静不是一个受过训练的肃静。 不是一个自觉的，追求寂静的冥想欲望。 它是了解自己的调节规划后的必然结果。
24:33 DB: Yes, and one can see that if the brain is quiet, then you could almost say it can listen to something deeper. D：是，而我们看得出 - 如果大脑寂静 那么你几乎可以说它能更深入的聆听，对不对？
24:42 K: Then if it is quiet, it is related to the mind. Then the mind can function through the brain. K：更深入，没错。然后，如果它是寂静的，它和大脑会有联系。

D：对。

K：不对，和心有联系。然后，心就可以通过大脑发挥功能。
24:54 DB: I think that it would help if we could see, with regard to the brain, whether it has any activity which is beyond thought. For example, one could ask, is awareness part of the function of the brain? D：我想，它将会有所帮助，如果我们能看到关于大脑 是否有任何超越念头的活动，你看。 例如，人们会问， 觉察是不是大脑功能的一部分？
25:11 K: As long as there is awareness in which there is no choice. I am aware, and in that awareness I choose. K：只要在这觉察中 没有抉择。 我有察觉。 而在那觉察中我作出抉择。
25:26 DB: Yes, well, I think that may cause difficulty. What is wrong with choice? D：是，好，我认为那会造成困难。 抉择有什么不对？
25:32 K: Choice means confusion. K：抉择意味着混乱。
25:34 DB: It is not obvious just from the word. D：在字面上这不很明显。
25:37 K: Of course, to choose between two things. K：当然，你分别两样东西而选其一。
25:39 DB: Yes, I could choose whether I buy one thing or another. D：是，现在，我可以选择购买这个东西或另一个。
25:43 K: Yes, I can choose between this table and that table. K：是的，我可以选择这张桌子或那张桌子。
25:44 DB: Or choose the colours when I buy the table. D：或选择其颜色，当我买桌子时。
25:46 K: Yes, this is a better table. K：是的，这是一张更好的桌子。
25:49 DB: That apparently need not be confused. If I choose which colour I want, I don't see why that has to be confused. D：这显然不会混乱。 如果我选择我想要的颜色， 我看不出会有什么混乱。
25:55 K: There is nothing wrong. There is no confusion there. K：没有错。那里没有任何混乱。
25:58 DB: But the choice, the choice about the psyche, it seems to me, is where the confusion is. The language tends to carry away. D：但那抉择，关于心灵的抉择， 在我看来， 是混乱之源。

K：就这些，我们是在谈论关于心灵。

D：我们往往，语言往往会忘形，你看。
26:08 K: We are talking of the psyche that chooses. K：是的，我们是在谈论心灵的选择。
26:11 DB: Yes, that chooses to become really. D：是，它选择去真的改变。

K：是的。
26:14 K: Chooses to become, and also choice exists where there is confusion. 选择改变，而抉择存在于混乱之处。
26:19 DB: You are saying out of confusion the psyche makes a choice to become one thing or another. Being confused, it tries to become something better. D：是。好，你是说在混乱中 心灵作出抉择去成为这个或者那个。 由于混乱，它试图变得更好。
26:31 K: And choice implies a duality. K：而抉择意味着二元性。
26:36 DB: Yes, but now it seems at first sight we have another duality you have introduced which is the mind and the brain. D：是的，但是乍看之下，我们有另一个二元性， 是你提出的，就是心和大脑。
26:42 K: No, that is not a duality.

DB: That is important to get clear. What is the difference? 		K：不，那不是二元性。

D：弄清楚这个很重要。

K：那不是二元性。

D：是，有什么区别？
26:50 K: All right, let's take a very simple example. Human beings are violent, and non-violence has been projected by thought. And that is the duality – the fact and the non-fact. K：好吧，让我们看一个很简单的例子。 人类是狂暴的， 而非暴力被念头投射出来。 这就是二元性 - 事实与非事实。
27:11 DB: Well, you are saying there is a duality between a fact and some mere projection which the mind makes. D：好，你是说二元性是关于事实 和心制造出来的一些投影。
27:18 K: The ideal and the fact. K：理想与事实。
27:19 DB: Yes. The ideal is unreal, and the fact is real. D：是。理想是虚幻的，而事实是真实的。
27:23 K: The ideal is not actual. K：就是这样。理想是不实际的。

D：是，就是它。不实际的。 现在，那么你说这两个的分裂你称它为二元性。
27:31 DB: The division of those two you call duality. But why do you give it that name? 为什么你给它这个名字？
27:35 K: Because they are divided. K：因为他们分开了。
27:37 DB: At least they appear to be divided. D：好，反正至少他们看起来是分开的。

K：分开，而我们正在挣扎，因为所有... 例如说，
27:42 K: Say, for instance, the totalitarian communist ideals and the democratic ideals, they are the outcome of thought which is limited, and this is creating havoc in the world. 极权主义的共产理想和民主主义的理想， 他们是念头的结果，等等， 它们是有限的，而这制造了世界浩劫。
27:55 DB: Yes. So there is a division which has been brought in. But I think we were discussing in terms of dividing something which cannot be divided. We are trying to divide the psyche. D：是。因此，它们带来了分裂。 但我认为我们是在讨论 去分割一些不能被分割的东西。 我们正试图分割心灵。

K：没错。
28:09 K: Violence cannot be divided into non-violence. 暴力不能被分割为非暴力。
28:14 DB: And the psyche cannot be divided into violent and non-violent. D：而心灵不能被分割为暴力和非暴力。
28:18 K: It is what it is.

DB: So if it is violent, it cannot be divided into a violent and a non-violent part. 		K：它就是它。

D：它就是它， 所以，如果它是暴力，它就不能被分为 一部分暴力和一部分非暴力的。

K：没错。所以...
28:24 K: That is very good! So can we remain with 'what is,' not with what should be, what must be, and invent ideals, etc. 这非常好！ 所以我们能不能保持'如是'， 而不是'应该是'， '必须是'，然后去发明理想，以及其他多余之事？
28:39 DB: Yes, but could we return to the question of the mind and the brain now? We are saying that is not a division because they are in contact. D：是的，但我们能不能重谈 心和大脑的问题？ 我们说那不是一个分割。

K：噢，不，这不是一个分割。

D：他们在接触，对吗？
28:51 K: We said there is contact between the mind and the brain when the brain is silent and has space. K：我们说心和大脑之间会有联系 当大脑寂静而拥有空间。
28:58 DB: Yes, so we are saying, although they are in contact and not divided at all, that the mind can still have a certain independence of the conditioning of the brain. D：是，所以我们说，虽然他们在接触 而完全没有分割，就可以有一个独立的... 心仍然能够有一定的独立性 不受大脑的调节所影响。
29:13 K: Careful, let's see. Suppose my brain is conditioned, being programmed as a Hindu, and I function, act, my whole life is conditioned by the idea that I am a Hindu. Mind obviously has no relationship with that conditioning. K：现在，小心，先生，小心，小心！让我们看看。 假设我的大脑被规划，被编程为一个印度教徒， 而我的功能，行为，我的整个生活都被这个想法所调节 认为我是一个印度教徒。 心显然不能与这种调节规划有联系。
29:42 DB: You are using the word 'mind,' it means it is not my mind. D：你现在用的是'心'这个字，这意味着它不是我的心。
29:46 K: Mind – it is not my mind. K：哦，心，心，不是我的心。
29:47 DB: You are discussing mind universally or generally. D：我们是在讨论举世或普遍的心。
29:49 K: Yes. It is not my brain either. K：是的。它也不是我的大脑。
29:51 DB: No, but there is a particular brain, this brain or that brain. Would you say there is a particular mind? D：不，但是有独特的大脑，这个大脑或那个大脑。 你会说有独特的心吗？
29:59 K: No. K：不会。
30:00 DB: That is an important difference. You are saying mind is really universal. D：现在，你看，这是一个重要的区别。 你是说心是真正普遍的。
30:04 K: Mind is universal, if we can use that ugly word. K：心是普遍的，如果你能使用这个字眼，丑陋的字眼。
30:07 DB: Unlimited or undivided.

K: Yes. 		D：无限的，不可分割的。

K：是的。
30:11 K: It is not polluted by thought. K：它不被念头所污染。
30:17 DB: But I think for most people there will be difficulty in saying how do we know anything about this mind? I only know my mind is the first feeling. D：但我觉得对于大多数人，会有困难去说 我们怎么能知道关于心的事情？ 我只知道我的心是第一感觉，对不对？
30:27 K: You cannot call it your mind. You only have your brain which is conditioned. You can't say, it is my mind. K：你不能称它为你的心。 你只有你那被规划了的大脑。 你不能说，'这是我的心。'
30:37 DB: Whatever is going on inside, I feel is mine, and it is very different from what is going on inside somebody else. D：是，无论什么内在的运作，我都觉得是我的， 而它与别人内在的运作是非常不同的。

K：不，我质疑它是否...
30:45 DB: At least it seems different at first sight. D：至少，乍看之下似乎不同。
30:47 K: I question whether it is different, what is going on inside me as a human being and you as another human being. We both go through all kinds of problems, suffering, fear, anxiety, loneliness, and so on. We have our dogmas, beliefs, superstitions, and everybody has this. K：是的。我质疑它是否不同， 作为一个人的我的内在运作， 和作为另一个人的你的内在运作。 我们都经历过各种问题，痛苦， 恐惧，焦虑，孤独，等等，等等。 我们有我们的教条，信仰， 迷信，每个人都有。
31:10 DB: It is all very similar, but still it seems each one of us is isolated from the other. D：好，我们会说这都十分相似，但是，看起来， 我们每个人和其他人是分开的。
31:14 K: By thought. My thought has created that I am different from you, because my body is different from you, my face is different from you. So we extend that same thing into the psychological area. K：由于念头。我的念头制造了我与你的不同， 因为我的身体与你的不同， 我的脸与你的不同。因此，我们带着那同样的... 我们扩展同样的想法到心理领域去。
31:34 DB: Yes, we have discussed that. But if we say, all right, that division is an illusion, perhaps. D：是，我们曾经讨论过这个。但现在 如果我们说，'好吧，这个分割也许是一种幻觉。'
31:44 K: No, not perhaps.

DB: It is an illusion, all right, although it is not obvious when a person first looks at it. 		K：不，不是也许，它就是。

D：好吧，这是一种幻觉， 虽然当一个人第一眼看它时，它并不明显。
31:51 K: Of course. K：当然。

D：那么现在， 我们说心...实际上，即使大脑也没有分割，
31:56 DB: In reality, even brain is not divided, because we are saying that we are not only basically similar, but really connected. And then we say, beyond all that is mind, which has no division at all. 因为我们说，我们不仅在基本上是相似的， 而且是真正连接在一起，对不对？ 然后我们说，超越这一切 是完全没有分割的心。
32:09 K: It is unconditioned. K：它不受调节规划。
32:11 DB: Yes, it would almost seem to imply then, that in so far as a person feels he is a separate being, he has very little contact with mind. D：是，那么它几乎似乎在暗示，迄今为止 如果一个人感到，自己是一个独立的个体，他就少了很多 与心的接触，对不对？

K：绝对，完全正确。
32:18 K: Absolutely, quite right. 这就是我们所说的。

D：你说，'没心。'
32:20 DB: Say, he has no mind. （一同笑）
32:25 K: That is why it is very important to understand not the mind, but my conditioning. Whether my conditioning, the human conditioning, can ever be dissolved. That is the real issue. K：这就是为什么理解它是非常重要的 不是理解心，而是理解我们的调节规划。 然后看清我们的调节，人类的规划， 到底能不能被解除。 这才是真正的问题所在。
32:42 DB: Yes. I think that the mind – we won't call it the mind – but a human being always considers what is the meaning. I think we want to understand the meaning of what is being said. We have a mind that is universal, that is in some kind of space, you say. Or is it its own space? D：是。我觉得心还是 -我们不会把它叫做心 - 但一个人总是会去思考衡量其中意义。 我觉得我们要了解你所说的是什么意思。 我们有个普遍的心， 处于某种空间里，你说的。或者是在它自己的空间里？

K：它不在我体内或脑中。

D：但是它应有一个空间。
33:05 K: It is not in me or in my brain. K：它居于空间和寂静之中。

D：它居于一个空间和寂静之中。
33:07 DB: But it has a space. 但那是心的空间，对不对？
33:11 K: It lives in space and silence. 它不是像这样的空间的空间？

K：不，不。
33:15 DB: But it is the space of the mind, right? It is not a space like this space.

K: No. That is why we said space is not invented by thought. 		这就是为什么我们说空间不是由念头发明的。

D：是，现在，有没有可能去觉知这个空间
33:28 DB: Is it possible then to perceive this space when the mind is silent? Or to be in contact with it? 当大脑寂静时， 去与它接触？
33:36 K: Not perceive. Let's see. You are asking a question: whether the mind can be perceived by the brain. K：不是去觉知。让我们看看。

D：当大脑...

K：你是在问一个问题 到底心是否可被大脑觉知。
33:48 DB: Or at least somehow be aware, an awareness or a sense. D：或至少在某种程度上去察觉，一种认知，一种感觉...

K：是，是。
33:54 K: We are saying yes, through meditation. You may not like to use that word.

DB: Well, I don't mind. 		我们说，是的，通过禅修。 你可能不喜欢用这个词。

D：好，我并不介意。
34:03 K: I think it is possible – you see, that is the difficulty. When we use the word 'meditation' it is generally understood there is always a meditator meditating. Meditation is really an unconscious process, it is not a conscious process. K：我认为这是有可能去实现... 你看，先生，这是其难处。 当我们引用'禅修'这个词时，一般的理解是， 总会有一个修禅者在打坐。 禅修其实是一个无意识的过程， 它不是一个自觉的过程。
34:27 DB: Well, how are you able to say that meditation takes place then if it is unconscious? D：好，你要如何去讲解 禅修正在进行，而它却是无意识的？
34:32 K: It is taking place when the brain is quiet. K：它在大脑寂静时进行。
34:37 DB: You mean by consciousness all the movement of thought with feeling, desire, will, and all that goes with it. But there is a kind of awareness still, isn't there? D：好，你所指的意识是所有念头的运动。

K：是的，念头的运动。

D：感觉，欲望，意志， 和所有随之而来的东西，对不对？

K：对。

D：但还是有另一种意识，不是吗？
34:47 K: Oh, yes. It depends on what you call awareness. Awareness of what? K：哦，是的。要看你所谓的意识是什么。

D：是。

K：什么的意识？
34:55 DB: Possibly awareness of something deeper, I don't know. D：可能是更深一层的意识，我不知道。
35:06 K: Again, when we use the word 'deeper,' it is a measurement. K：你看，再次，当你使用'更深一层'时，它是一个度量。 哦，不，先生，我不会使用它。
35:16 DB: Well, let's not use that. But let's say that there is a kind of unconsciousness which you are simply not aware of at all. A person may be unconscious of some of his problems, his conflicts. D：好，我们不要使用它。但是，让我们说，有一种... 还有一种是无意识 我们根本不能察觉到它。 一个人可能会没有意识到他的一些问题，冲突。
35:30 K: Let's go at it a little bit more. If I do something consciously, it is the activity of thought. K：让我们去讨论它。让我们进一步讨论它。 如果我有意识地做一些事情，这是念头的活动。
35:41 DB: Yes. Yes, it is thought reflecting on itself. D：是。

K：对不对？

D：对，这是念头在反省自己。
35:47 K: It is the activity of thought. Now, if I consciously meditate, practise, do what I call nonsense, then you are making the brain conform to another series of patterns. K：是，这是念头的活动。 现在如果我有意识地修禅， 修行，做一切我称之为废物的事情， 那么你就会使到大脑 去顺应另一系列的模式。
36:05 DB: Yes, it is more becoming. You are trying to become better. D：是，那是更多的形成。

K：更多的形成，没错。

D：是，你尝试成为更好。
36:12 K: There is no illumination by becoming. You can't be illumined – if I can use that word – by saying, I am going to achieve illumination. K：在形成中没有光照。 你不能被点亮，如果我可以引用这个词， 虽然你说'我将是一个首席点亮者。’
36:23 DB: It seems very difficult to communicate something which is not conscious. D：但是现在，那似乎是非常困难去传达某些 没有意识的东西，你看。
36:30 K: That is the difficulty. K：那是它的难处。
36:31 DB: Still is it not just being knocked out. A person is unconscious if he is knocked out too, but you don't mean that.

K: Good lord, no! 		D：还有它不是只被击昏而已。或者如果一个人 失去意识时，他也是被击昏了，但你不是那个意思吧。

K：当然不是，天啊！

D：或者在麻醉状态下，还是...
36:39 DB: Or under anesthetic. K：不，让我们这样说：
36:46 K: Let's put it that way: conscious meditation, conscious activity to control thought, to free oneself from conditioning, is not freedom. 有意识的禅修，有意识的活动 去控制念头， 去摆脱自己的调教规划，不是自由。
37:01 DB: Yes, I think that is clear, but now it becomes very unclear how to communicate what else. D：是，我认为那个已经清楚了，但现在这个又变得很不明显 要如何去传达 - 以外的东西？ - 你看。
37:07 K: Wait a minute. You want to tell me what lies beyond thought. K：等一下。 你要告诉我的是 念头以外的东西。
37:20 DB: Or when thought is silent.

K: Quiet, silent. What words would you use? 		D：或当念头是沉默时。

K：寂静，沉默。 你会用什么字眼？
37:27 DB: I suggested the word 'awareness.' What about the word 'attention'? D：好，我建议‘察觉’这个词。 ‘专注’这个词又如何？
37:32 K: Attention is better for me.

DB: Yes. 		K：对我来说，‘专注’会比较好。

D：是。
37:39 K: Would you say, in attention, there is no centre as the 'me'? K：你会不会说，在专注里没有'我'的中心？
37:46 DB: Well, in the kind of attention you are discussing. There is a kind, which is the usual kind, where we pay attention because of what interests us. D：好，在你所讨论的那种专注里。 有一种，一种普通的， 我们为我们感兴趣的东西所作出的专注。
37:54 K: Attention is not concentration.

DB: Yes, that is concentration. But we are discussing a kind of attention without this 'me' present, which is not the activity of the conditioning. 		K：专注不是集中注意力。

D：对，那是集中注意力。 但我们正在讨论的一种专注 无'我'的专注， 它不是调节规划的活动。
38:07 K: Not the activity of thought.

DB: Yes. 		K：不是念头的活动。

D：对。
38:11 K: In attention thought has no place. K：专注中没有念头的存在。
38:16 DB: Yes, but could we say more – what do we mean by attention? Now, would the derivation of the word be of any use? It means stretching the mind towards something – would that help? D：是的，但我们能不能多问一下？你所指的专注是什么？ 现在, 这个词的派生意义有用吗？ 它表示把心延伸导向某个东西- 这有帮助吗？
38:27 K: No. Would it help if we say concentration is not attention. Effort is not attention. When I make effort to attend it is not attention. Attention can only come into being when the self is not. K：没有，没有。 这有没有帮助，如果我们说 集中注意力不是专注，对不对？ 努力不是专注。 当我作出努力去注意，那就不是专注。 专注只能在无我的时候生起。
38:59 DB: Yes, but that is going to get us in a circle, because we are starting when the self is. So here is a person who says meditation is necessary, he begins with the self, he says, 'I am here.' D：是，但是这将会使我们陷入一个圆圈， 因为我们是从有我开始的。 所以，这里有一个人说，禅修是必要的， 他从自我开始，他说，'我在这里。'
39:11 K: No, I used the word carefully. Meditation means measure. K：不，不，我很小心引用这个词。禅修是指度量。
39:16 DB: Yes. D：是。
39:17 K: As long as there is measurement, which is becoming, there is no meditation. Let's put it that way. K：只要有了量度，那就是形成， 就没有禅修了。让我们这样说。
39:23 DB: We can discuss when there is not meditation. D：是。我们可以讨论伪禅修的活动。
39:26 K: That is right. Through negation the other is. K：没错。通过否定去成立另一方。
39:31 DB: If we succeed in negating the whole activity of what is not meditation, then the meditation will be there. D：如果我们成功否定整个 伪禅修的活动，真正的禅修将显现。
39:38 K: That is right. K：没错，没错。
39:40 DB: That which is not meditation, but which we think is meditation. D：那是伪禅修，但我们却认为它是禅修
39:43 K: Yes, that is right. That is very clear. As long as there is measurement, which is the becoming, which is the process of thought, meditation or silence cannot be. K：是的，没错。那是非常清楚的。 只要有量度，就是形成， 也就是念头的过程， 不是禅修或寂静。
39:59 DB: In there, there is this undirected attention, this attention, is it of the mind?

K: Attention is of the mind. 		D：你看，在这个无拘无束的专注里， 这专注...它是属于心，或？..

K：专注是属于心的。
40:09 DB: But it contacts the brain, doesn't it?

K: Yes. We said that. As long as the brain is silent, the other has contact. 		D：但是，它接触大脑，不是吗？

K：是的。我们说。只要 大脑是寂静的，另一个就能接触它。
40:19 DB: That is, this true attention has contact with the brain, when the brain is silent. D：也就是说，真正的专注与大脑有接触， 当大脑寂静时。

K：寂静和拥有空间。
40:23 K: And has space. D：什么是空间？
40:26 DB: What is the space? K：大脑现在没有空间，
40:29 K: The brain has no space now, because it is concerned with itself, it is programmed, it is self-centred, and it is limited. 因为它在关注自己， 它被编程，它以自我为中心，以及它是有限的。

D：是，现在你会不会说，大脑，除了...
40:42 DB: The mind is in its space, does the brain have its space too? 处于它的空间的心；现在，大脑是否也有自己的空间呢？
40:47 K: A limited space. Of course. Thought has a limited space. K：有限的空间。

D：有限的空间。

K：当然。念头有一个有限的空间。
40:52 DB: But when thought is absent, does the brain have a space? D：但是还有，当念头不存在时，大脑是否也会有自己的空间？
40:55 K: That is right.

DB: Does it? 		K：没错。没错。
40:56 K: The brain has space, yes.

DB: Unlimited? 		大脑有空间，对。

D：无限的？
41:01 K: No. It is only the mind has unlimited space. K：不。只是心才有 无限的空间。

D：无限的。
41:09 K: My brain can be quiet over a problem which I have thought about, and I suddenly say, I won't think any more about it, and there is a certain amount of space. In that space, you solve the problem. K：我的大脑能够沉默对待一个 我曾经思考过的问题， 而我突然说，'好吧，我不会再去想它了，' 那就出现了一定的空间。 你在那个空间里解决那个问题。
41:22 DB: If the mind is silent, is not thinking of a problem, then still the space is limited, D：是，现在如果心是沉默的，不去思考问题， 那么那个空间还是有限的吗？

K：是的。
41:28 DB: but it is open to the attention.

K: To the other, to the mind. 		D：但它是坦开给专注。

K：给另一个，给心。
41:32 DB: Would you say the mind, through attention, or in attention, the mind is contacting the brain? D：你会说心，通过专注，或在专注中， 心与大脑接触吗？
41:41 K: Yes, when the brain is not inattentive. K：会，当大脑不是不专注时。
41:46 DB: So what happens to the brain? D：那么大脑发生什么事？
41:50 K: What happens to the brain which is to act? Wait, let's get it clear. We said intelligence is born out of compassion and love. That intelligence operates when the brain is quiet. K：那个去行动的大脑到底发生什么？ 对吗？ 那个去...等一下，让我们弄清楚先。 我们说，智慧生起于 慈悲与爱。 当大脑寂静时，智慧就开始操作。
42:17 DB: Does it operate through attention? D：是，它是通过专注操作的吗？
42:21 K: Of course. K：当然，当然。
42:24 DB: So attention seems to be the contact. D：那么，专注似乎是接触点。

K：接触，专注，自然的。专注，我们也说过，
42:28 K: We said too, attention can only be when the self is not. 专注只能在无我时生起。
42:32 DB: Yes. You say that love and compassion are the ground, and out of this comes the intelligence, through attention.

K: Yes, it functions through the brain. 		D：是。 好了，现在你说，爱和慈悲有如土地， 通过专注，从这块土地产出智慧。

K：是的，通过大脑去发挥功能。

D：这智慧...所以，比方说，有两个问题：
42:52 DB: There are two questions: one is the nature of this intelligence, and the second is, what does it do to the brain? 一个是这个智慧的本质，而第二个是， 它对大脑起着什么作用，你看？
42:59 K: Yes. Let's see. We must again approach it negatively. Love is not jealousy, and all that. Love is not personal, but it can be personal. K：是。先生，让我们来看看。 就是说，我们必须再次应用负面的方法来了解它。 爱不是嫉妒，以及不好的一切。 爱不是私人的， 但它可以针对个人。
43:15 DB: But then it is not what you are talking about.

K: Yes. Love is not my country, your country, I love my god – it is not that. 		D：但如此一来它就不是你所说的爱了。

K：对。 爱不是我的国家，你的国家， '我爱我的神。’ 它不是这些。
43:26 DB: Well, if it is from a universal mind... D：好，如果它是来自普遍的心...
43:30 K: That is why I say love has no relationship to thought. K：这就是为什么我说，爱不是某某... 它与念头没有关系。

D：是。
43:39 DB: Yes. It does not start in the particular brain, originate in the particular brain. 它不始于任何大脑， 源于任何大脑。
43:43 K: Yes, it is not my love. When there is that love, out of that there is compassion, and there is intelligence. K：是的，它不是我的爱。

D：是。

K：一旦有了那种爱，就会生出慈悲， 也生出智慧。

D：这智慧，这智慧的本质，就是...
43:56 DB: The nature of this intelligence, this intelligence is able to – if I could use the word 'understand' deeply. 这智慧有能力去深入地，如果我可以用这个词 '明白' - 你知道，我不觉得...
44:09 K: No, not understand. Let's look at it. K：不，不是'明白。' 等一下，让我们来看看它。
44:12 DB: What will it do? Does it perceive? D：它能做什么？它能觉知吗？
44:16 K: Through perception it acts.

DB: Yes. Perception of what? 		K：它通过知觉去行动。

D：是。 什么知觉？

K：知觉...
44:28 K: Now, let's discuss perception. There can be perception only when it is not tinged by thought. When there is no interference from the movement of thought, there is perception, which is direct insight into a problem, or into human complex. 现在，让我们来讨论知觉。 知觉只能存在 当它不被念头所染。

D：当它不..？

K：被染，或者... 当我们不受念头运动的干扰时， 就会有知觉， 它能直接洞察问题的根本， 或洞察人类的复杂结构。
45:02 DB: This perception originates in the mind? D：这知觉起源于心？
45:08 K: Does the perception originate in the mind? Let's look at it. Yes. When the brain is quiet. K：这知觉是否起源于心？让我们来看看它。 是的。当大脑寂静时。
45:21 DB: Yes, but we used the words perception and intelligence – how are they related or what is their difference? D：是的，但我们用的字眼是'知觉'和'智慧' 它们是如何相关的，或者他们的区别是什么？
45:29 K: Between perception and intelligence? K：知觉与智慧之间？
45:32 DB: Yes.

K: None. 		D：是。

K：无区别。
45:33 DB: So we say intelligence is perception. Intelligence is perception of what is. And through attention there is contact. D：所以我们说智慧是知觉。

K：知觉，没错。

D：智慧是'如是'的知觉，对不对？ 而通过专注就会有接触。
45:45 K: Let's take a problem, it would probably be easier to understand. K：让我们拿一个问题来观察， 这样可能会比较容易理解。
45:57 K: Take a problem of suffering. Human beings have suffered endlessly, through wars, through every kind of disease, physical disease, and through wrong relationship with each other. Man has suffered a great deal. Now, can that end?

DB: Yes. The difficulty of ending that is that it is on the programme. We are conditioned to this whole thing, and that is physically and chemically registered. 		K：就拿一个痛苦的问题。 人类永无止境地受苦，通过战争， 通过各种疾病，身体的疾病， 以及通过人与人之间的错乱关系。 人类已经受尽千辛万苦。 现在那些能结束吗？

D：是。 好，我会说，结束的困难已记录在案。 我们已习惯这整个事情了，对不对？

K：对，整个事情。

D：而在物理方面 和化学方面也都已立案。

K：我们已被调整过来。
46:34 K: We are conditioned. That has been going on for centuries. 现在，那已经持续了几个世纪。
46:38 DB: Yes, so it is very deep, in some way. D：是，所以在某些方面，它是非常深刻的。
46:41 K: Very, very deep. Now, can that suffering end? K：非常，非常深刻。 现在那个痛苦可以结束吗？
46:48 DB: Yes, and it cannot end by an action of the brain because the brain is caught in this suffering, and it cannot take an action towards its own suffering. D：是，靠大脑的行动，它不能结束。

K：靠念头。不能。

D：因为大脑被困在这痛苦中，它不能 采取任何行动去解除自己的痛苦。
46:58 K: Of course, it cannot. That is why thought cannot end it. Thought has created it. K：当然，它不能。这就是为什么念头无法结束它。

D：是的，因为念头...

K：念头创造了它。
47:04 DB: And anyway it is unable to get hold of it. D：...创造了它，反正它也无法去掌握它。
47:07 K: Yes, thought has created the wars, the misery, the confusion, and thought has become prominent in human relationship. K：是的，念头创造了战争，苦难，混乱， 而念头却已成为人类关系的主导。
47:18 DB: I think people might agree with that and still think, as thought can do bad things, it can do good things. D：你看，我想人们可能会同意这一点，却仍然认为， 念头既可做坏事，也可以做好事。
47:26 K: No, thought cannot do good or bad. It is thought. K：不，念头不能做好或做坏。它是念头，是有限的。
47:31 DB: Thought cannot get hold of this suffering. This suffering being in the physical conditioning of the brain, and chemical, thought has no way of even knowing what it is. By thinking, I don't know what is going on inside me. I can't change the suffering inside, because thinking will not show me what it is. Now, you are saying maybe there is an intelligence. D：念头不能掌握这痛苦。 就是说这痛苦存在于大脑的生理规划和化学调节中， 念头甚至无法知道痛苦是什么。

K：我的意思是，我失去了我的儿子，而我...

D：是的，但是思考并不能让我知道到底是什么发生在我内心。 我无法改变内心的痛苦，因为思考不能 告诉我那是什么。现在你说那是智慧。
47:54 K: But after all, we are asking can suffering end, that is a problem. K：但是毕竟，我们所问的是痛苦可以结束吗？这是一个问题。
47:59 DB: Yes, and it is clear that thinking cannot do it. D：是，但很清楚，思考无法做到这一点。
48:02 K: Thought cannot do it.

DB: No. 		K：念头无法做到这一点。

D：不。好吧。现在因为...
48:05 K: That is the point. If I have an insight into it... K：这是重点。如果我能洞察它...
48:09 DB: Yes, this insight will be the action of the mind through intelligence and attention. When there is that insight, intelligence wipes away suffering. D：是，现在这个洞察将来自心的行动， 通过智慧和专注。

K：智慧。 一旦有了这洞察，智慧就能抹除痛苦。
48:20 DB: Yes, you are saying that there is a contact from mind to matter which removes the whole physical, chemical structure which keeps us going on with suffering. D：是，现在你是说，所以心与物质之间 有一种接触，它能够消除那整个 令我们不断地受苦的生理与化学结构。
48:29 K: That is right. In that ending there is a mutation in the brain cells. We discussed this some years ago, this question. K：是的。 在那个结束中，有脑细胞的突变。 一些年前我们曾经讨论过，这个问题。

D：是，而那个突变立即抹除整个
48:39 DB: Yes, that mutation just wipes out the whole structure that makes you suffer. 令你受苦的结构。

K：是的，因此
48:43 K: Yes, it is like I have been going along in a certain tradition, I suddenly change that tradition, there is a change in the whole brain which has been going north – and now it goes east. 它好比 - 我一直沿照一种传统生活， 我突然改变了这个传统，在整个大脑中产生变化， 一路来它都是通往北方的。现在，它却转向东方。
48:58 DB: Yes, this is a radical notion from the point of view of traditional ideas in science. Because if we accept that mind is different from matter, then people would find it hard to say that mind would actually... D：是的，当然，从传统科学理念的观点来看， 这是一个激进的概念，因为，如果我们接受心 与物质是不同的，那么人们会难以认同 心实际上能够...

K：心毕竟是，先生...
49:16 K: Would you put it, mind is pure energy? 你会说，心是纯能量吗？
49:19 DB: Well, we could put it that way, but say matter is energy too. D：好，我们是可以这样说，但同时也说物质是能量。
49:24 K: Therefore matter is limited, thought is limited. K：所以物质是有限的，念头是有限的。
49:28 DB: Yes, but we are saying that the pure energy of mind is able to reach into the limited energy of matter. D：是，好，但是我们说，心的纯能量 能够深入物质的有限能量。
49:33 K: Yes, that is right. And change the limitation. K：是，没错。并且更改其局限。
49:36 DB: Yes, to remove some of the limitation. D：是，消除一些局限。
49:38 K: When there is a deep issue or a problem or a challenge which you are facing. K：当有一个深层的课题，或问题， 或挑战，需要你去面对。

D：是的，所以我们有念头，
49:52 DB: And we could also add that all the traditional ways of trying to do this cannot work. 我们还可以补充，那些所有的传统 解决方案都无法成功，因为...
49:58 K: It hasn't worked.

DB: That is not enough because people still might hope it could, it cannot actually. Because thought cannot get at the basis of its own physical, chemical basis in the cells and do anything about those cells. 		K：它没有成效。

D：好，这还不够。 我们不得不说，因为人们还是希望它可以 实际上，它不能。

K：它不能。

D：因为念头不能在本身的物理基础上， 细胞的化学基础上，对这些细胞做任何事情。
50:13 K: Yes, we have said that very clearly. Thought cannot bring about a change in itself. K：是的，先生，我们已经说得很清楚。 念头不能为本身带来变化。
50:20 DB: Yes, and yet practically everything that mankind has been trying to do is based on thought. There is a limited area where that is all right, but we cannot therefore – as we said, we were discussing before – do anything about the future of mankind from the usual approach. D：是，但实际上，人类的一切努力 一切尝试都是基于念头。 在一个有限的范围内，当然，这样是没问题的， 但我们不能因此，正如我们之前所说，我们之前所讨论， 用这惯常的做法来为人类的未来做些什么。

K：先生，你看，这就是我...当你去听那些政治家，
50:39 K: When you listen to the politicians who are so very active in the world, they are creating problem after problem, and to them thought is the most important thing, ideals. 在世界上非常活跃的政治家， 他们连续不休地制造问题， 而对于他们，念头是最重要的东西，理想。
50:54 DB: Generally speaking, nobody can even know of anything else. D：一般来说，没有人知道，他们还能去了解其他的东西。
50:58 K: Exactly. We are saying the old instrument, which is thought, is worn out except in a certain area. K：准确。我们说那个旧工具， 也就是念头，除了在某些方面，已经磨损了。
51:08 DB: Well, it never was adequate except in those areas. D：好，除了那些方面，它从来不曾称职过。
51:11 K: Of course. K：当然，当然。
51:13 DB: And man has always been in trouble as far as we can remember, as far as history goes. D：而人类总是处于困境， 据他所能记忆以来，据历史所载。
51:18 K: Yes, man has always been in trouble, turmoil, fear. We mustn't reduce all this to an intellectual argument. But as human beings, facing all the confusion of the world, can there be a solution to all this? K：是的，先生，人类总是有麻烦，动乱，恐惧。 我们不应把这一切降为一个知识论据。 但作为人类，面对世界上所有的混乱， 有没有一个解决全部问题的方案呢？
51:44 DB: Yes, and that comes back to the question I would like to repeat. It seems there are a few people who are talking about it, and perhaps meditating and so on, but how is that going to affect this vast current of mankind? D：是，这又回到我想重提的问题。 似乎有少许人也正在谈论它， 去思考，也许去冥想，等等， 但那究竟能为人类的巨大暗流带来怎样的影响？
52:02 K: Probably very little. But why do you raise – will it affect? – it might or it might not. But then one puts that question: then what is the use of it? K：大概会很少。但你为什么要提出... 它可能影响吗？它可能，也许不可能。

D：它不可能。它可能，也许不可能。

K：但是，人们又提出这个问题：那又有何用？
52:17 DB: Yes, that is the point. I think there is an instinctive feeling that makes one put the question. D：是，这是重点。我认为这是一种本能的感觉， 驱使人们去提出这个问题。
52:23 K: Yes. I think that is a wrong question. K：是的。我认为这是一个错误的问题。
52:25 DB: That is, the first instinct is to say, what can we do to stop this tremendous catastrophe? D：但却是老生常谈的错误问题。人们的第一本能会问， '我们能够做些什么去制止这场浩劫？'
52:31 K: But if each one of us, whoever listens, sees the truth of this, that thought in its activity, both externally and inwardly, has created a terrible mess, great suffering, then one must inevitably ask: is there an ending to all this? If thought cannot end it, what will?

DB: Yes. 		K：是的。但如果我们每一个人， 聆听者，看见这个真理 就是念头，在它的外在和内在的活动中， 制造了可怕的混乱，巨大的痛苦， 然后不可避免地问道： 这一切会不会结束？ 如果念头不能结束它，什么能呢？

D：是。
52:59 K: What is the new instrument that will put an end to all this misery? There is a new instrument, which is the mind, and so on. Which is intelligence. But, you see, the difficulty is also, people won't listen to all this. They have come to definite conclusions, both the scientists and the ordinary layman like us, they won't listen. K：结束这一切苦难的新工具是什么呢？ 我们有一个新工具，它是心，等等，等等。

D：是。

K：它是智慧。 但是，你看，其难度也是， 人们不会去聆听这一切。 他们已作出明确的决定，无论是科学家 还是和我们一样的普通门外汉，他们都不要聆听。
53:28 DB: Yes, well, that is the sort of point I had in mind, when I said that a few people don't seem to have much effect. D：是，好，那正是我心中的想法， 当我说那对少许人似乎并没有产生太大的影响。

K：当然，当然。毕竟，我认为
53:35 K: I think, after all, few people have changed the world. Hitler – whether good or bad, that is not the point. 有少数人曾经改变了整个世界。 希特勒是一个... 无论是好还是坏，那不是重点。
53:43 DB: Well, he didn't change it fundamentally. D：好，他并没有从根本上改变它。
53:46 K: No, change the world superficially, if you like. The revolution of the Bolsheviks, the communists, has changed, but they have gone to the same pattern again. Physical revolution has never changed, psychologically, the human state. K：不，只在表面上改变了世界，如果你喜欢这么说。 布尔什维克革命，共产党，也曾改变世界， 但他们也落入同样的模式。 物理革命却从未改变人类的心理状态。
54:03 DB: Do you think it is possible that, say, a certain number of brains coming in contact with mind in this way, will be able to have an effect on mankind which is beyond just the immediate obvious effect of their communication? D：好，你认为有没有可能 比方说，有一定数量的大脑， 以这种方式与心接触后，将有能力 去影响人类，这个影响力超越 他们之间交流所带来的明显直接效果？
54:20 K: Yes, that is right. K：是的，没错。没错。
54:22 DB: Obviously, whoever does this may communicate in the ordinary way and that will have a small effect, but this is a possibility of something entirely different. D：我的意思是，显然的，任何人都会以 普通的方式去交流，而这将会有小的影响， 但是现在，这可是一个完全不同的可能性，对不对？

K：你看，你要如何...
54:40 K: I have often thought about it – how do you convey all this, rather subtle and very complex issue, how do you convey all this to a person who is steeped in tradition, who is conditioned, and won't even take time to listen, to consider? - 我经常思考这个问题 -你要如何去表达这一切 这相当微妙以及异常复杂的课题， 你要如何去传达这一切给一个沉浸在传统的人， 他被调教规划，而甚至不愿花时间去聆听，去考虑？
55:01 DB: Yes, well, that is a question. One point you could say is that this conditioning cannot be absolute, an absolute block, or else there would be no way out at all. But the conditioning may be thought to have some sort of permeability. D：是，好，这是一个问题。 你看，有一点你可以说的是这个被调教成的惯性 不能是绝对的，你知道，绝对的封闭体， 否则就没有出路了。 但是，惯性也可以被看作拥有某些渗透性。

K：我的意思是，毕竟，教皇将不会聆听我们，
55:17 K: After all, the pope won't listen to us, but the pope has tremendous influence. 但是教皇却拥有巨大的影响力。
55:23 DB: Is it possible that every person has something he can listen to, if it could be found? D：有没有可能，每个人都有某些 他们愿意聆听的东西，只要我们能找出来？
55:29 K: If he takes a little patience. Who will listen? The politicians won't listen. The idealists won't listen. The totalitarians won't listen. The deeply steeped religious people won't listen. So perhaps that is the whole point: a so-called ignorant person, not highly educated and conditioned, and his profession, career, money, the poor man who says, I am suffering, please let's end that. K：如果他有一点耐心，先生。谁会去聆听呢？ 政客们就不会听。理想主义者不会听。 极权主义者不会听。 深深沉浸在宗教里的人不会听。 所以，也许，先生，这是整个重点： 一个所谓无知的人， 学历不高，而被规划在他的职业里，事业里，金钱里， 这个可怜的人说道，'我很痛苦，请让我们结束它吧。'
56:06 DB: Well, but he doesn't listen either. He wants to get a job. D：好，但他也不会聆听，你看。他只想找到一份工作。
56:11 K: Yes, of course. He says – feed me first. We have been through all this for the last 60 years. The poor man won't listen, the rich man won't listen, the learned won't listen, and the deeply dogmatic religious believers don't listen. So perhaps, it is like a wave in the world, it might catch somebody. I think it is a wrong question to say, does it affect? K：（笑）是的，当然。他说，'先喂饱我。' 在过去的六十年里，我们经历了这一切。 穷苦的人不会听，有钱的人不会听， 有学问的不会听，而封闭教条化的 宗教信徒不去听。 因此，也许，这就像在世界上的一个波浪， 它可能会卷获一些人。 我认为这是一个错误的问题去问，它是否有影响？
56:45 DB: All right, we say that that brings in time and that is becoming. It brings in the psyche in the process of becoming again. D：是，好吧。我们说，那带来时间以及那是形成。 它再次在形成的过程中带入了心灵。
56:54 K: But if you say – it must affect mankind. K：但如果你说，'这一定会影响人类...'
57:00 DB: Are you proposing that it affects mankind D：好，你是不是建议说，它能直接
57:03 DB: through the mind directly, rather than...

K: Yes. It may not show immediately in action. 		通过心去影响人类，而不是...

K：是的，是的。

D：我们对此是非常认真的...

K：它可能不会立即在行动中显示出来。
57:13 DB: You are taking very seriously what you said, that the mind is universal and is not located in our ordinary space, is not separate. D：是。你是非常认真地说，心是 普遍的，而它却不处于我们平常的空间里， 不是分开...
57:23 K: You see, there is a danger in saying this – the mind is universal – that is what some people say – the mind – and it has become a tradition. K：你看，先生，那是危险的，如果我们说 - 心是普遍的 - 这是某些人所说的'灵' 它已成为一个传统说法。
57:31 DB: Well, you can turn it into an idea, of course. D：好，你可以把它变成一个理念，当然。
57:35 K: Of course, that is just the danger of it, that is what I am saying. K：当然，这正是它的危险之处，就是我所讲的。

D：是。但是你所讲的是
57:41 DB: But really, the question is: we have to come directly in contact with this to make it real. - 实际上，那问题是： 我们必须直接与它接触，它才会成真，对不对？
57:46 K: Of course, that is it. They can only come into contact with it when the self is not. To put it very, very simply. And therefore when the self is not, there is beauty, there is silence, space, then that intelligence, which is born of compassion, operates through the brain. It is very simple. K：当然，就是这样。 只有在无我的状况下，它们才能接触， 非常，非常浅白地说。因此，当自我不存在时， 就会有美，有寂静，空间; 然后，那个智慧，起源于慈悲， 会通过大脑操作。这非常简单。
58:13 DB: Yes, but would it be worth discussing the self, since the self is active widely... D：是。值不值得去讨论一下自我， 这个问题 - 你看，因为自我是那么广泛地活跃...
58:24 K: But that is our long tradition of many, many, many centuries. K：但这已是我们很多，很多，很多个世纪以来的悠久传统。
58:29 DB: Now, is there some aspect of meditation which can be helpful here, when the self is acting. Suppose a person says, ok, I am caught in the self, but I want to get out. But I want to know what shall I do? I won't use the words – what shall I do – but what do you say? D：现在有没有某方面的禅修 能在自我活跃时，起着某种作用。 你看，假设一个人说，'好吧，我陷入了自我， 但我想出去。但我想知道我该怎么办。'

K：啊！你看这是...

D：我本来不想用‘我该怎么办'这句子，但你要如何说？
58:52 K: That is very simple. Is the observer different from the observed? K：啊，这很简单。 观者是不是与所观不同？
58:59 DB: Suppose we say, yes, it appears to be different, then what? D：好，假设我们说，'是的，它们似乎是不同的，' 那又如何？
59:02 K: Is that an idea or an actuality? K：不，那是一个理念还是实际？
59:06 DB: What do you mean? D：你是什么意思？
59:08 K: Actuality is when there is no division between the thinker and the thought. K：实际是当我们没有去分割 思考者和念头之时。
59:12 DB: Yes, but suppose I say, ordinarily one feels the observer is different from the observed. I say, we begin there. D：是，但是假如我说，通常人们都觉得观者 与所观是不同的。我说我们从此处开始谈。

K：我们从此处开始谈。让我展示给你看。请看这。
59:19 K: I'll show you. Look at it. Are you different from your anger, from your envy, from your suffering? You are not. 你是不是与你的愤怒，与你的嫉妒，不同， 与你的痛苦不同？你不是。
59:29 DB: At first sight it appears that I am, that I might try to control it. D：是，乍看之下，似乎我正在， 你看，我可能在尝试去控制它，对不对？
59:33 K: Not control, you are that. K：不是控制，你就是那个。
59:36 DB: How will I see that I am that? D：是，但我要如何去看清那是我呢？
59:39 K: You are your name. You are your form, body. You are all the reactions and actions. You are the belief, you are the fear, you are the suffering and pleasure. You are all that. K：你是你的名字。你是你的状态，身体。 你是你所有的反应和行动。你是你的信仰， 你是你的恐惧，你是你的痛苦和快乐。 你是那一切。
59:55 DB: Yes, but the first experience is that I am here first, and those are properties of me, they are my qualities which I can either have or not have. I might not be angry or not angry, I might have this belief or that belief. D：是的，但我们的第一个经验是，我是先有的， 而那些是我的属性，它们是我的特质 它们是我可有可无的。 我可能不是生气或不生气， 我可能有这个信仰或那个信仰。
1:00:07 K: Contradictory – you are all that. K：当然，自相矛盾。你是那一切。
1:00:08 DB: But when you say I am that, do you mean that I am that, and cannot be otherwise? D：但是，你看，这并不很明显。当你说我就是那个时， 你的意思是，我是那个，而不可能是别的？
1:00:15 K: No. At present you are that. It can be totally otherwise. K：不，目前你是那个。但它也可以完全并非如此。
1:00:19 DB: Yes, so I am all that. Rather than saying, as I usually do, that I am looking at those qualities. I the observer, I admit that I am anger, but I feel that I as the observer am not anger but an unbiased observer who is looking at anger. Now, you are telling me that this unbiased observer is the same as the anger he is looking at. D：是，好的。所以我是那一切。 而不能说，正如我通常所说， 我在看着那些质量...

K：就是这样。

D：就是说，我，观者， 我承认我是愤怒，但我觉得我，作为观者 我不是愤怒，而是一位中立的观者，在旁观愤怒。

K：当然。

D：但你告诉我 这个中立的观者，就是他所观察的愤怒。
1:00:44 K: Of course. Like I analyse myself, and the analyser is the analysed. K：当然。就像我分析我自己， 分析者就是所分析。
1:00:51 DB: Yes. He is biased by what he analyses.

K: Of course. 		D：是。他因为所分析的而有偏见。

K：当然。
1:00:54 DB: So, if I watch anger for a while, I can see that I am very biased by the anger. So at some stage I say I am one with that anger. D：所以，如果我观察愤怒一阵子，我可以看到， 我因为愤怒而极有偏见。 所以在某个阶段，我说，'好吧，我是那个拥有愤怒的人，’ 对不对？
1:01:07 K: Not, I am one with it, you are. K：不是‘拥有它的人'，你是它。
1:01:09 DB: That anger and I are the same. D：我是。但那愤怒和我是一样的，对不对？
1:01:11 K: Yes. The observer is the observed. And when that actuality exists, you have really eliminated altogether conflict. Conflict exists when I am separate from my quality. K：是的。观者就是所观。 而当你证了那个，现实就存在， 你也真正完全消除了冲突。 当我与我的质量分割时，冲突就存在。
1:01:32 DB: Yes, that is because if I believe myself to be separate then I can try to change it, but since I am that, it is that is trying to change itself and remain itself at the same time. D：是，那是因为如果我认为自己是分开的， 那我就可以尝试去改变它，但由于我就是它， 那就等于试图改变本身，又在同时 维持本身，对不对？

K：是的。没错，没错。
1:01:42 K: But when the quality is me, the division has ended. 但是，当质量就是我， 分割就结束了。 对不对？
1:01:51 DB: When I see that the quality is me, then there is no point to the whole thing. D：是，当我看到我的质量就是我， 那么所有这些都没有意义了。
1:01:56 K: No. What happens before: the quality is not me, then in that there is conflict, either suppression, escape, etc., which is a wastage of energy. When that quality is me, all that energy which has gone, which has been wasted is there to look, to observe. K：不，不。之前的状况： 质量不是我，那么其中就有冲突， 无论是镇压，逃避，以及所有其他的做法， 都是一种能源浪费。 当质量是'我' 那些之前被浪费的一切能量， 被用来去看，去观察。
1:02:25 DB: But why does it make such a difference to have that quality being me? D：为什么把质量当作’我‘会产生那么大的差别？
1:02:29 K: I am showing it to you. It makes a difference when there is no division between the quality and me. K：我来向你展示。

D：是。

K：那里会有大差别，如果没有 质量和我之间的分割。
1:02:37 DB: Yes, when there is no perception of a difference then the mind does not try to fight itself. If there is an illusion of a difference, the mind must be compelled to fight against itself. The brain fights against itself.

K: That is right. 		D：是，好，当我们没有差别的知觉...

K：没错。转用不同的说法。

D：...那么心就不会尝试自己打自己。

K：是的，是的。它是如此。

D：如果有了一个差别的错觉， 心就会迫使自己斗争自己。

K：是的，大脑。

D：大脑自己斗争自己。

K：没错。
1:02:55 DB: And on the other hand, when there is no illusion of a difference the brain just stops fighting. D：在另一方面，当我们没有任何差别的错觉， 大脑就会停止斗争，对不对？
1:03:00 K: And therefore you have tremendous energy. K：斗争。所以，你有巨大的能量。
1:03:03 DB: The brain's natural energy is released. D：是。大脑的自然能量被释放出来，对吗？

K：是的，是的。而这意味着- 能量意味专注。
1:03:07 K: Energy means attention. D：是。好，大脑的能量能让专注从...
1:03:10 DB: Yes. The energy of the brain allows for attention from... K：...能让那个东西溶解。
1:03:15 K: For that thing to dissolve. D：是。好，等一下，因为我们以前说过
1:03:17 DB: Yes. Well, wait a minute, because we said before attention was a contact of the mind and the brain. But the brain must be in a state of high energy to allow that contact. 专注是心和大脑的接触。 但大脑必须处于高能量状态，以便能接触。
1:03:26 K: That is the same thing. K：没错。这是同样的东西。
1:03:28 DB: A brain which is low energy cannot allow that contact. D：是。我的意思是，低能量的大脑，不能完成接触。
1:03:30 K: Of course not. But most of us are low energy because we are so conditioned. K：当然不能。 但我们大多数人都是低能量的， 因为我们被严重的调节规划。
1:03:56 DB: Essentially you are saying that this is the way to start then. D：好，那么基本上你是说，这就是正确的开始方式。
1:04:01 K: Yes, sir. Start simply.

DB: Yes. 		K：是的，先生。简单地开始。

D：是。
1:04:04 K: Start with what is, what I am. That is why self-knowledge is so important. Self-knowledge is not an accumulated process of knowledge, which then looks at, it is a constant learning about oneself. K：从'如是'，'什么是我'开始。 这就是为什么自我知识是非常重要的。 自我知识不是积累知识的过程， 然后才去观察， 它是一个不断地深入了解自我的过程。
1:04:25 DB: Yes, if you call it self-knowledge, then it is not knowledge of the kind you talked about before, which is conditioning. D：是，如果你把它称为自我知识，那么它就不是那种 我们谈论过的知识，那些是调教规划。
1:04:31 K: That is right. Knowledge conditions. K：是的。知识规划我们。
1:04:33 DB: But you are saying that self-knowledge of this kind is not conditioning. Why do you call it knowledge? Is it a different kind of knowledge? D：但是你却说自我知识 不是调教规划。 但你为什么把它叫做知识？它是一个不同的知识吗？
1:04:40 K: Yes. Knowledge conditions. K：是的，是的。知识规划我们。
1:04:43 DB: Yes, but now you have this self-knowledge. D：是的，但现在你有这个自我知识。
1:04:45 K: Self-knowledge, which is to know and to comprehend oneself, to understand one's self is such a subtle, complex thing, it is living. K：自我知识，是去认识和理解自己， 去明白，自我是这样一个微妙的，复杂的东西，它是活的。
1:04:57 DB: Essentially knowing yourself in the very moment, in which things are happening. D：基本上，在每个当下都必须认清自我， 在每个运作的当下。
1:05:02 K: Yes, to know what is happening. K：是的，要在当下了了分明。

D：而不是把它储存在记忆中。
1:05:04 DB: Rather than store it up in memory. K：当然。这只能通过反应：
1:05:06 K: Of course, through reactions I begin to discover what I am, and so on. I think we better stop. Right? 我开始发现我是什么，等等，等等。 我认为我们最好停止。 对吗？