克里希那穆提 - 至高无上的智慧是没有任何幻想

Krishnamurti Subtitles

BR83DSS2.0 - 至高无上的智慧是没有任何幻想
学校讨论
英国，布洛克伍德公园
1983年10月16日

0:27	Krishnamurti: What shall we talk about?	克：我们要谈些什么呢？
0:33	Student: I think during the last talks we have talked about the question of intelligence, a bit we have touched it, and how to bring intelligence to our life so that somehow intelligence operates in our life. And I wonder if we could pursue that.	学生：我想在上几次谈话中我们已经谈到了智慧的问题我们仅仅谈到了一点点以及如何将智慧带入我们的生活那么在一定程度上，智慧就能在我们的生活当中运作。我想知道我们能不能探讨一下这个问题。
0:55	K: Right. Any other questions?	克：好的。还有其他的问题吗？
0:58	S: When and why will a human being genuinely ask what is intelligence? Related to his question.	学：何时以及为什么一个人会真诚地询问什么是智慧？这也和他前面的问题相关。
1:06	K: Why do we ask...	克：为什么我们会问...
1:08	S: And when.	学：以及何时会问。克：我们何时会问
1:09	K: When do we ask what is intelligence?	什么是智慧？
1:12	S: Genuinely ask. K: Yes. Any other questions?	学：真诚地问。克：好的。还有其他的问题吗？
1:17	S: I wonder, what is the morning meeting for?	学：我想问，今天早上的聚会到底是为了什么？
1:26	K: Good lord! Any other?	克：天哪！（笑声）还有别的问题吗？
1:35	S: Why do you give these talks?	学：你为什么要演讲？
1:41	K: Why do you give talks. S: Yes.	克：你为什么演讲。学：是的。（笑声）
1:45	K: Would you like me to shut up?	克：你们希望我闭嘴吗？（笑声）
1:54	S: No. What is the purpose, if you have any purpose for giving these talks?	学：不是。你讲演的目的是什么如果你的讲演有任何目的的话。
2:02	K: Why do I talk? I really – no, I mustn’t go into... Is that all?	克：我为什么要演讲？我真的 - 不，我不能深入来讲这个...（笑声）就这些问题吗？
2:20	S: How do you know all the things that you are speaking about?	学：你是如何知道你所谈论的一切的？
2:30	S: How do you know when you start becoming intelligent?	学：你是怎么知道你什么时候开始变得智慧的？
2:34	K: Yes – how do you know all that you are talking about. Not from books, not from other people. The ancient books, or the modern books, modern philosophy and so on. I’ll explain all this a little later as we go along. May I? Any other questions?	克：好 - 你是如何知道你所谈论的一切的。不是从书本上学来的也不是从别人那里得来的。也不是从古代以及现代的典籍，现代哲学等等得来的。在我们一会儿进行的讨论中我会解释这一切。可以吗？还有其他问题吗？
3:12	S: How do you know when you start beginning to get intelligence, start becoming intelligent?	学：你是如何知道你什么时候开始拥有智慧，开始变得充满智慧的？
3:19	K: How do you know what intelligence is.	克：你如何知道什么是智慧。
3:23	S: No, in yourself when you start to become more intelligent.	学：不，你自身是什么时候开始变得更有智慧的。
3:31	S: How can you tell you are becoming intelligent?	学：你如何知道你正在变得有智慧。
3:34	K: We will find out presently. We were driving the other day nearly two weeks ago, along the Pacific coast of California. It was a lovely morning. It had rained, and generally in California it doesn’t rain that part of the year, and it was a really lovely morning. There wasn’t a cloud in the sky. And the Pacific was blue, light blue, so calm, like a great lake. It was not the same dark blue of the Mediterranean but it was a light blue, and the sun was just touching it making a great light on the sea. And in front of our car – Mrs Zimbalist was driving – and it was a good car, and on the bumper there was a sticker. The sticker said, ‘Question authority’. So we are going to question authority this morning. And in questioning authority we are going to find out for ourselves, in the understanding of the very complex problem of authority, we’ll begin to see what is, for ourselves, what is intelligence. Why we follow, why we accept, why we obey, whether authority and the acceptance of authority leads to intelligence. We are going to talk it over together. Right? Right. Do you question authority? You know what that word means? We won’t go into the root meaning of that word the etymological meaning, but authority. There are various kinds of authority. Right? The authority of the government, however rotten that government is, the authority of totalitarian governments, the authority of the policeman, the authority of a lawyer, the authority of a judge, the authority of the pope, the authority of a priest. Right? All those are outside, outside the skin. But inwardly, inside the skin, there is the authority of experience, of one’s own experience, one’s own convictions. Right? Are you following all this? Authority of one’s own opinions, authority of one’s own convictions, ‘I am convinced I am a great man’ – that becomes the authority. ‘I am convinced I am a good poet’, whereas I may be a rotten poet but I am convinced. I am convinced about so many things. So experience, knowledge become one of the sources of authority. Right? Are you following? Because we are examining a very complex problem, the problem of authority. The authority of the parents, the authority of tradition, the authority of the majority of the voters. Right? The authority of the specialist, the authority of the scientist – there are several of them here – the authority of the Bible and the Indian so-called sacred books and so on – the Koran, you know what the Koran is, the Bible of the Islam, of Islamic world, the Mohammedan world, they accept that completely, obey. So there are many, many forms of authority. Right? Now, what do you question, when you question authority, what are you questioning? The authority of rules, the authority of those educators who tell you, inform you? Now, please discuss this with me because in enquiring very carefully step by step I’m going deeper and deeper into this question, you will yourself begin to awaken your own intelligence. You understand? Your own perception, your own... how to look at things intelligently, without authority. Is this clear? Have I made my statement clear? You are clear?	克：我们等一下会找出答案。前几天，我们开着车差不多两周前，我们驾车沿着加州的太平洋海岸行驶。那是一个非常宜人的早晨。天刚刚下过雨，而加州几乎是不下雨的在一年当中的这个季节，那真是一个非常宜人的早晨。天空一片云都没有。太平洋是蓝色的，浅蓝色，看起来是那么平静，像一面广阔的湖水。与地中海的深蓝色不同它是浅蓝色，太阳正从海平面上缓缓升起在海面上洒下了灿烂的光芒。在车子的前座 -津巴李斯特夫人在驾驶那是一部好车，在车的保险杠上粘着一张贴纸。贴纸上写着，“质疑权威”。所以我们今天早晨要来质疑权威。（笑声）并且在质疑权威的过程中我们要自己来找出答案在我们理解权威这个非常复杂的问题时我们要依靠自己弄明白什么是智慧。我们为何遵从，为何接受，为何服从是否权威和接受权威能带来智慧。我们将共同来探讨这个问题。对吗？好的。你们质疑权威吗？你们知道这个词的含义吗？我们不用讨论这个词的词根含义或者语源学含义，而是讨论什么是权威。有各种各样的权威。对不对？政府的权威，不管这个政府本身有多么腐败各个极权政府的权威警察的权威律师的权威，法官的权威教皇的权威，牧师的权威。对不对？这些权威都是外部的权威，体肤之外的。但是我们的内在，在体肤之内有经验这个权威每个人自己的经验，每个人自己的信念。对不对？你们能明白这些吗？每个人自己的想法这个权威每个人自己的信念也是权威 “我确信我是个了不起的人物”- 这样的想法就变成了权威。 “我确信我是个优秀的诗人” 虽然我可能是个差劲的诗人，却坚信自己是优秀的。我对如此多的事情都抱持确信的态度。所以经验、知识变成了权威的来源之一。对不对？你们能够理解吗？因为我们正在探索一个非常复杂的问题权威的问题。家长的权威传统的权威投票表决中多数人的权威... 对不对？专家的权威科学家的权威 - 我们当中就有一些科学家权威圣经的权威，在印度是那些所谓神圣典籍的权威 (难以听清的)等等 - 《可兰经》的权威；你们都知道《可兰经》是什么伊斯兰教的圣经，在伊斯兰世界，回教的世界他们完完全全地接受，服从《可兰经》。所以我们有各种各样形式的权威。对不对？那么，你们要质疑什么呢当你们质疑权威时，你质疑的是什么？质疑各种规则的权威吗质疑那些向你传道授业的教育者的权威吗？那么，请和我来一起讨论这个问题因为在一步一步仔细地探询中我会越来越深入地探讨这个问题你们将开始唤醒你们自身的智慧。你们理解吗？你们自己的领悟，你们自己了解如何智慧地观察事物，而不受权威影响。这些清楚吗？我讲清楚了吗？你清楚吗？学：是的。
10:40	S: Yes. K: Good! Are you quite sure? The authority that exists outside of us – law, governments, the majority of people who vote for a prime minister, the authority of the policeman, the authority of a lawyer, the authority of a surgeon, the scientists who are building the nuclear bomb, the authority of the totalitarian states and so on – outside. Inside of us, I say, ‘I know’, that becomes the authority. Or I am convinced, I am quite sure my opinion is correct. I am quite sure my experience tells me what to do. That becomes the authority. Or I practise a certain discipline and that has become my authority. You understand? So, we are going to question all this. The outer and the inner, the environment and the psychological realm. Clear? Now, let’s proceed. We are going to question, not say it is right or wrong, but enquire, question, doubt, ask. Now let’s begin. The authority of the policeman. Right? Do you question that?	克：很好！你非常确定吗？那些存在于我们之外的权威法律，政府，占大多数的人们曾投票给某个首相的大多数警察的权威，律师的权威外科医生的权威那些正在制造核弹的科学家们的权威极权主义国家的权威，等等，- 这些外部的权威。在我们内心，我说，“我知道” 那便成为了一种权威。或者我确信某事，我确信我的想法是正确的。我确信我的经验会指导我该做些什么。这就变成了权威。或者我践行某种戒律然后戒律就变成了我的权威。你们明白吗？所以，我们要来质疑这一切。外在和内在的权威周边环境中以及心理领域的权威。明白吗？那么，我们开始吧。我们要来质疑，而不是说这是对的或者错的而是询问，质疑，怀疑，提出问题。那么我们现在就开始。警察的权威。对吗？你们质疑过警察的权威吗？
13:05	S: Isn’t it necessary? K: But question it first. Don’t accept, don’t say it is necessary. You see, you have already accepted authority.	学：难道那不是必须的吗？克：但是先来质疑一下。不要接受，不要说那是必须的。你看，你已然接受了权威。
13:20	S: Yes, but there’s not very much that we can do about it.	学：是的，但是我们似乎对此无能为力。
13:24	K: No, you can’t do anything about it.	克：是的，你们是无能为力。
13:27	S: We don’t want that kind of authority.	学：我们并不想要那样的权威。你不能...
13:29	K: You don’t want that kind of authority? Suppose I have been driving in France on the right side of the road and I come here, I am used to driving a car on the right side of the road in France, in Austria and so on, and I come here and I keep to that side. Right? To the right side, and there will be accidents. Right? So the policeman says, ‘Hey, get back, go to the left’. But if I insist on keeping to the right, he will give me a ticket. So I accept the authority of a policeman who tells me, ‘You are driving in the wrong lane, please kindly go to the left’ because that is the custom, that is the law in this country. Right?	克：你们不想要那种权威吗？假设我在法国开车一直是在马路的右侧行驶的然后我来到这里（英国），我已经习惯了开车时把车开在马路的右侧在法国，奥地利等等都是右侧驾驶到了这里我想保持右侧驾驶。对吗？保持右侧驾驶，那么我会...就会造成交通事故。对不对？所以我必须...警察说，“嘿，回来开到左边去”。但是如果我仍然坚持把车开在右侧，警察就会给我开一张罚单。所以我接受了警察的权威，他告诉我 “你的车正开在错误的线路上恳请你开到左侧去” 因为那是此地的习惯，那是这个国家的法律。对不对？
14:39	S: That’s quite sensible. K: That’s quite sensible – it is. Now, then the authority of governments. This is much more complex. The authority of the government says, you must become a soldier. In Europe you have to become a soldier for two years, fortunately not for women. In Switzerland, in France, in all the European countries, you have for two years, you have to be a soldier. Do you accept that authority?	学：这很合理。克：这很合理-的确是。那么，接下来是政府的权威。这要复杂多了。政府的权威说，你必须参军服役。在欧洲，你不得不在军队中服役两年幸运的是，女人不用服兵役。在瑞士，法国，在所有的欧洲国家你必须去军队服役两年。你们接受这样的权威吗？
15:37	S: If you don’t, is there anything...	学：如果你不接受，会不会有什么... 克：不，好好考虑一下
15:39	K: No, just think it out, look at it carefully. They say, ‘We have to protect our country’. Right? In case of war we are prepared to fight the enemy. Have you ever heard of that phrase, a General says, ‘We have met the enemy – it is us’. Have you heard of that phrase? Have you understood that phrase? We have met the enemy – it’s us. We are the enemy to ourselves. Sorry! So find out. The government says – all governments, the most inefficient government also says, ‘You must fight for the country’. There is a tremendous authority. Right? What’s your response to that?	认真地想一想。他们说，“我们必须要保护我们的国家”。对不对？如果战争爆发，我们要准备好与敌人作战。你是否听过这样的一句话，一个将军说 “我们已经遇到了敌人- 那就是我们自己”。你们听过这个说法吗？你们能够理解这句话的含义吗？我们已经遇到了敌人- 那就是我们自己。我们就是自己的敌人。抱歉！那么请找出答案。政府说 - 所有的政府最无能的政府也会说 “你必须为国家而战”。那是一种极大的权威。对不对？你们对于这样的权威作何反应？
17:07	S: If I was in that situation, and I was, say, a Swiss citizen and I am asked to join the army, I wouldn’t do it.	学：如果我身处那样的境地，譬如说我是一个瑞士公民，我会如果我被要求参军，我不会接受的。
17:17	K: Then you would go to prison. S: No, I’d go to another country.	克：那么你就要进监狱了。学：不，我会到其他的国家去。
17:21	K: They won’t let you.	克：（笑声）你们不允许你去。学：但是总会有办法的。
17:24	S: Well, there are ways.	克：噢，是的。但是从此你永远无法回到自己的国家了。
17:26	K: Oh, yes. But you can never go back to your country again.	学：是的。
17:30	S: Yes.	克：我认识一些这样做的人。
17:31	K: I know several people who have done this. But they can never go back to their own country. Is that the answer? Question, question what you are saying.	但是他们再也无法回到自己的国家了。这是问题的解决办法吗？质疑，质疑你所说的话。
17:51	S: Perhaps to some degree it is.	学：或许某种程度上那是个解决办法。
17:54	K: I said, question, sir. Question what you will do when governments says, ‘You must become’, you are conscripted, drafted as they use the word in America – drafted, here the word is ‘conscripted’, and you are asked to join the army. That is supreme authority. Do you question that?	克：我说了，先生，质疑。质疑你将要采取的行动当政府说，“你必须成为军人” 你被征入伍了，被征募了在美国他们使用那个词-被征募了(drafted) 在这里用“应征入伍”(conscripted)，政府要求你加入军队。那是最高的权威。你们质疑它吗？
18:34	S: By question, do you mean where authority comes from?	学：你说质疑，是指质疑权威来自何处吗？
18:37	K: No. The government says you must.	克：不是。政府说你必须服役。
18:41	S: OK, what exactly do you mean by question?	学：好的，那么你说的质疑究竟是什么意思？
18:44	K: I mean by question, we are questioning authority – you understand?	克：我说的质疑是指我们正在质疑权威- 明白吗？
18:50	S: It’s not clear, I don’t understand.	学：不清楚，我不明白。
18:54	K: I’ve explained, sir, haven’t I, haven’t we? I told you the sticker in California, it said, ‘Question authority’. That means – do you accept authority? Where do you accept authority, where do you disregard authority? Right? Now, the government says to you, as you are a young man or going to be when you are 18, 19, 20, says, ‘You must become a soldier for two years’. And they give you other alternatives which are rather boring, or when there is a war all the people, grown-up boys and young men are conscripted. There is that authority of the government. Do you question that authority?	克：我已经解释了，先生，不是吗？我们还没说清楚？我告诉过你们，加州的那张贴纸上边写着，“质疑权威”。那意味着- 你们接受权威吗？你们在何种情况下接受权威何种情况下蔑视权威？对吗？现在，政府对你说，由于你已经是个成年的年轻人了或许你已经18、19或者20岁了他们说，“你必须要当兵两年”。并且他们会给你一些其他的选择，这些选择会相当无聊或者，如果有战争爆发，所有的人成年的男孩子，年轻人都会被征募入伍。那是政府的权威。你们质疑那个权威吗？
19:58	S: Yes, but what can you do about it?	学：是的，但是你能怎么办呢？
20:00	K: You are going to find out. We are going to find out. But first question, is that what you will do when somebody, government asks you to become a soldier? This is a very complex problem, I don’t know if you can go into this. They say, ‘We must protect our country’. Right? So you have to question, what is our country?	克：你们会找到答案的。我们一起去发现。但是首先质疑，当有人，当政府要求你成为一名军人你会那样去做吗？这是一个非常复杂的问题，我不知道你是否可以深入地探索它。他们说，“我们必须保护我们的国家”。对不对？所以你必须要质疑，什么是我们的国家？
20:40	S: It’s all that we know around us, our language.	学：国家是我们所了解的周围的一切，我们的语言...
20:42	K: Which means what? S: That which we are familiar with.	克：那是什么意思？学：就是我们所熟悉的一切。
20:46	K: Take, for instance, England says to you, the British government says to you, ‘We are going to be attacked by somebody and you must train yourself, carry a gun and all the rest of it, and fight’. Now what’s your response? Poor chaps!	克：打个比方，英格兰对你说英国政府对你说 “某人将会袭击我们而你必须训练你自己随身配枪以及诸如此类的一切，然后去作战”。那么你将作何反应？可怜的孩子们！
21:20	S: You probably wouldn’t want to. K: Probably you don’t want to. Then they either, if you are in Russia or in other countries, they shoot you. Or they say, ‘If you don’t want to, what is your reason?’	学：你可能不愿意那样做。克：可能你并不愿意那样做。那么，如果你身处俄罗斯，或者其他的国家他们就会枪毙你。或者他们会问，“如果你不愿意，你的理由是什么？”
21:40	S: You don’t want to kill another man. You don’t want to kill another human being.	学：你不想去杀人。你不想去杀死另外一个人。
21:45	K: So is that your conviction?	克：那么这是你坚定的信念吗？
21:49	S: No, I think... K: Careful. I am asking a question. He says, you don’t want to kill another human being. Is that your conviction, is that your religion? Do your parents also are religious that way? They ask all these questions, old boy, I am not inventing them.	学：不，我认为... 克：认真一点。我正提出问题。他说，你不想杀死另外一个人。这是你坚定的信念吗？这是你的宗教信仰吗？你的父母也有这样的信仰吗？他们会问诸如此类的所有问题，大男孩，这不是我发明出来的。
22:12	S: What’s the point of killing somebody else?	学：杀死其他的人有什么意义？
22:18	K: What is the point of killing people? They have done this for 5000 years and more. The Greeks did it, the Egyptians did it, the Sumerians and Babylonians and so on, so on, so on. Great empires were formed that way, killing people. The British empire which lasted a 150 years, not like the Persian Empire, or the Greek, or the Egyptian, the Egyptian civilization for 3000 years, undisturbed. So, people have been killing each other for the last 5000 years and more. So what’s your answer?	克：杀人有什么意义？人类已经这样杀戮了五千年了还不止五千年。希腊人是这样，埃及人是这样还有苏美尔人和古巴比伦人，等等，等等。伟大的帝国都是这样建立起来的，通过杀戮。大英帝国存续了150年和波斯帝国不同，和希腊人，埃及人也不同埃及的文明延续了三千年，从未受到干扰。所以，人类不断地彼此杀戮在过去的五千年甚至更长的时间里。那么你的回答是什么？
23:27	S: Perhaps you just become a soldier. Perhaps you become a soldier but not the attitude of you doing it for your country and not because if you protest, the very fact that you are protesting, in a sense that becomes your own belief, your fire.	学：或者你干脆就去当个士兵得了。或许你成为一个士兵但是不秉持为你的国家而战斗的态度而不是...因为如果你抗议你在抗议这个事实本身从某种程度上，就变成了你的信念，你的热情。
23:49	K: So you become a soldier and you are ready to kill?	克：那么你成为一名军人，并且准备好了去杀人吗？
23:55	S: No. K: He said so. He said you might become a soldier. That means you are prepared to kill for your country. Right? Wait, wait, wait, go slowly. What’s your country, what do you mean, your country? We are questioning everything, you understand? What do you mean, your country?	学：不是。克：他是这么说的。他说你可以成为一个军人。这就意味着你做好了为你的国家去杀人的准备。对不对？等一下，等一下，我们慢慢来。什么是你的国家，你说“你的国家”，这是什么意思？我们正在质疑所有的一切，你们明白吗？你说“你的国家”，究竟是什么意思？
24:25	S: It’s the American way, this is the way it's done.	学：这是美国的方式，这就是人们处理的方式。
24:27	S: I mean you don’t go in it patriotically, if you don’t, perhaps, you will be put in prison.	学：我的意思是不要因为爱国主义去参军如果你不去服兵役，或许你就得进监狱。
24:37	K: I know. You don’t go in patriotically, you don’t go in for your personal reasons, but you are going to kill people.	克：我知道。你不是出于爱国应征入伍你应征入伍并非由于私人的原因但是你将要去杀人。
24:48	S: We tend not to, we don’t kill anybody, just carry a gun.	学：我们不愿意，我们不杀任何人，只是带把枪而已。（笑声）
24:58	K: Then they kill you. All right. I know a man who became a soldier, he was forced, and the officer said, ‘We are going to the front’, and the soldier, this friend of mine said, ‘All right, but when I get to the front, you are the officer, I am going to shoot you first because you have forced me to that position’. And they said, ‘This man is crazy’, and they had psychologists and the psychiatrists who examined but he kept on repeating that, so they said, ‘Get back home’. But don’t play tricks like that. So, you understand, we’re questioning – you are not questioning. I am sent, the Indian government, fortunately they can’t, I am too old, they questioned me, as an Indian, and said, ‘You must become a soldier and you must protect your country’. I questioned and said, ‘What is my country, what do you mean my country?’ Right? Question it. Who says it’s my country?	克：那么他们会杀了你。好吧。我认识一个军人，他是被迫入伍的军官对他说，“我们要去前线了” 这个军人，我的这个朋友说 “好的，但是当我到了前线，你是军官我会开枪先杀了你因为是你把我逼到如此地步的”。于是他们说，“这个人疯了” 于是他们叫来了心理学家和精神病医生给他检查但是我的朋友不断重复那些话于是他们说，“让他回家去吧”。（笑声）但是不要耍那样的小聪明。所以，你们知道，我们正在质疑- 你们没有在质疑。我也接到了，来自印度政府的通知幸运的是他们不能招募我，因为我太老了作为一个印度人，他们质问我，对我说，“你必须成为一名军人，你必须保护你的国家”。我质疑这一点，问道：“什么是我的国家你说我的国家究竟是什么意思？” 对不对？质疑它。谁说这是我的国家？
26:34	S: Yes, but they won’t listen to that.	学：是的，但是他们不会听取这些的。
26:38	K: I am questioning myself, forget what the government says.	克：我正在质疑我自己，不要管政府说什么。
26:41	S: What do you mean by your country?	学：你说你的国家是什么意思？
26:43	K: That’s what I am asking.	克：我就是在问这个问题。（笑声）
26:46	S: The country that you were born in is supposed to be your country.	学：你出生的那个国家应该就是你的国家。
26:50	K: Where you are born.	克：你出生的地方。
26:51	S: Yes, that’s supposed to be your country.	学：是的，那里应该是你的国家。
26:53	K: That is supposed to be your country. Why do I say, ‘It’s my country’?	克：那里应该是你的国家。为什么我要说，“那是我的国家”？
26:58	S: Because you’ve lived there.	学：因为你在那里生活而且...
27:00	K: Yes, and you say, it’s your country. And I say, ‘It’s my country’. Right? Why do we say this? Why do grown-up people say this, and the young people say it, and it has been the tradition of thousands of years, it’s my country, I am going to protect it; it’s your country, you are going to protect it, let’s kill each other.	克：是的，那么你就说那是你的国家。同时我说，“那是我的国家”。是这样吗？我们为什么这么说？成年人为什么这样说年轻人为什么这样说而且这样的传统已经延续了几千年因为这是我的国家，所以我要保护它那是你的国家，所以你要保护你的国家让我们互相杀戮吧。
27:28	S: Because they want to possess it, and if that possession is threatened by another country, who feel possessive to their country, then you obviously are going to try to fight to possess your country.	学：因为他们想拥有一个自己的国家如果这种拥有受到另一个国家的威胁他们就会感到对自己国家的占有欲接着你就一定会奋起作战以拥有自己的国家。
27:41	K: I know. So you are willing to kill for your country.	克：我明白。所以说你愿意为了你的拥有而杀人...
27:43	S: No.	学：不愿意。
27:46	S: If that other country, Russia, if we had a war and they took over our country...	学：如果另外那个国家，俄罗斯如果我们之间爆发战争，而且他们接管了我们的国家...
27:57	K: May I ask your name? S: Tessa.	克：可以问问你的名字吗？学：泰莎。
28:01	K: Sasha? S: Tessa.	克：萨莎？学：泰莎。
28:12	K: Ah, Tessa! You are not following step by step into this. What is my country? Why have the world, the earth has been divided into my country, your country – why?	克：啊，泰莎！（笑声）你没有一步一步地跟进这个问题。什么是我的国家？为什么这个世界这个地球被分割成我的国家，你的国家-为什么会这样？
28:39	S: It’s always that – my book, not your book.	学：人类一贯如此- 这是我的书，而不是你的。
28:45	K: No. So go on, question all this, sir, don’t... Why? Why have human beings for thousands of years have said, ‘This is my country, and that’s your country’.	克：不。请你继续，质疑这一切，先生，不要... 为什么？为什么几千年来人类一直说 “这是我的国家，而那是你的国家”。
29:00	S: Well, you have... K: Why? Why?	学：嗯，你已经... 克：为什么？为什么？
29:03	S: OK. Well, you have dark skin, I have light skin, you speak that language and I speak this language, and there’s a group of people around me who speak the same language and a group of people around you speak your language and look the same as you. That’s your country and I am in my country.	学：好的，是这样，你的皮肤是深色的，我的皮肤是浅色的你说那种语言，我说这种语言，还有我周围有一群人和我说一样的语言你的周围有一群人和你说一样的语言而且看起来和你长得一样。你们有你们的国家，我有我的。
29:20	K: Why have we done this? S: Well, because you look different.	克：我们为什么这么做？学：嗯，因为你长得不一样。
29:24	K: All right. S: And language.	克：好的。学：还有语言不一样。
29:26	K: No. Are we different?	克：不。我们不同吗？
29:28	S: No, it’s just they scare you. K: Answer him. I am black. S: On the surface, yes.	学：不，只是他们恐吓你... 克：回答他。我是黑皮肤... 学：表面上看，是的。
29:35	K: You are pink or blue. I’m sorry. I am black and you are pink, or white, or whatever it is. Now, for that reason we fight each other?	克...你的肤色是粉红的或者蓝色的。（笑声）我很抱歉。我是黑皮肤，你是粉红皮肤，或者是白皮肤，或者不管是什么颜色。那么，我们要因为这样的原因而彼此交战吗？
29:56	S: Yes, and you believe in that. K: No, no, just begin slowly, sir. Do you kill me and I kill you because I am black and you are fairly near approaching white – why?	学：是的，而且你相信这些... 克：不，不，仅仅是...慢慢讨论，先生。我们彼此杀戮是因为我是黑皮肤，而你仅仅是接近白色的皮肤吗 - 为什么呢？
30:11	S: Because... K: No, question, sir. Don’t answer, question first.	学：因为... 克：不，质疑，先生。不要回答，先来质疑。
30:20	S: I don’t think so because I think it’s my book and it’s a very precious book and my friend said, ‘It is my book’, and I kill him for my book.	学：我认为不是这样的，因为我认为这是我的书，而且是一本非常珍贵的书然而我的朋友说，“这是我的书”，于是我就因为这本书杀了他。
30:37	K: Yes. So...	克：是的。那么...
30:38	S: And I think it’s not because he is black and I am white.	学：我认为那并非因为他是黑皮肤而我是白皮肤。
30:43	K: Quite right. So, what do you say? Go on. Why do we do that? S: Because...	克：非常正确。那么，你认为是因为什么？继续说。为什么我们会互相杀戮。学：因为...
30:52	K: Question it, I am questioning you; you are not questioning it yourself.	克：质疑它，我在质问你；但是你自己没有在质疑。
31:06	S: Is it not a natural response to want to possess something?	学：难道想要去拥有某物不是人类正常的反应吗？
31:10	K: Yes, that’s a natural response. Where does it begin, when does it begin? Careful, question, question, don’t accept anything natural and say, ‘It is natural’, and stick. Question why it is natural.	克：是的，那是正常反应。这种倾向起于何处，又起于何时？用心地，质疑，质疑不要接受任何看似正常的事物，然后说，“那是正常的”，然后坚持它。质疑为什么它是正常的。学：我认为一个婴儿不会...
31:26	S: I don’t think a baby...	克：是这样的，从婴儿开始。（笑声）
31:28	K: That’s it, begin with the baby. That’s quite right, begin with the small baby. You give him a toy, and he holds it. Right? And the other baby says and he pulls it away. Right? Haven’t you seen this? So, there it begins. Mine and yours, and we build this up.	这样非常好，从非常幼小的婴儿谈起。你给他一个玩具，他会紧抓不放。对不对？然后另一个孩子说...然后他就把玩具拿走。对不对？难道你们没有见过这样的场景吗？所以，就是从那里开始的。我的和你的，而且我们不断加强这种模式。
31:58	S: It makes you feel safe, you feel threatened when other people want it, so you’re going to... K: That’s right. So I am saying we build this up gradually as we grow older – this is mine and that is yours. And I am going to hold to mine, and you hold to yours. So what does it all mean? Question this. I say, ‘It is my country’, and you say it’s your country. Question why people say that.	学：那让你觉得安全当其他人想要你的东西时，你觉得受到威胁了所以你就会... 克：是这样的。所以我说，随着我们年龄的增长，我们也在不断加强这种模式这是我的，那是你的。而且，我要抓紧我的，你要抓紧你的。那么这究竟意味着什么？质疑这一点。我说，“这是我的国家” 你说这是你的国家。质疑人们为何这样说。
32:43	S: Well, perhaps through repetition and through education, you see one has..	学：嗯，可能是因为人云亦云，还有教育，你知道一个人...
32:47	K: Of course, through education, through history, through propaganda, through everything you come to the point when you are so conditioned, you say, ‘It’s my country and your country’.	克：当然，通过教育通过历史，通过宣传通过所有的一切，你走到了这般田地，你变得非常局限你说，“这是我的国家，你的国家”。
32:59	S: Because perhaps...	学：因为可能...
33:03	K: Question. Question first.	克：质疑。先来质疑。
33:07	S: Is it not a matter of security? K: Security. Now, you understand what Mr Smith said – it is a matter of security. I feel secure with my family – right? – my father, my brother, my sister, my aunts. I feel they will protect me, they are part of me – right? – the family. Then increase it, the community – right? Move it still further – the nation. Right? I identify myself first with the family, then with the community, with the society, then with the nation – ‘I am British’. Right? That means I feel secure. Right? We agree to that? You are quite sure? I feel secure when I say, ‘I am British’, and the Frenchman says, ‘I am French’. He is completely secure – the language, the custom, the tradition, the intellectual approach and so on and so on. French and English, and the German says the same thing. Right? That is they all want security, all of them. Right? Agree? You are questioning, they all want security.	学：难道这不是安全的问题吗？克：安全。现在你理解了史密斯先生所说的这是一个安全的问题。当我和家人在一起时我感觉到安全-对不对？我的父亲，我的兄弟，我的姐妹，我的姑姑们我认为他们会保护我，他们是我的一部分 - 对不对？ - 我的家庭。接着扩张开去，扩大到一个团体-对不对？再继续扩张下去- 成为了一个国家。对不对？首先，我把自己和家人认同在一起然后是和某个团体，和社会认同在一起接着和国家认同在一起，说，- “我是一个英国人”。对不对？这就意味着我感到安全。对不对？我们能同意这一点吗？你们非常确定吗？当我说“我是英国人”时，我感到安全一个法国人会说，“我是法国人”。他感到完完全全地安全与人们说同种语言，拥有相同的习俗传统采用相同的智力思维方式，等等，等等法国人，英国人还有德国人都持同样的观点。对不对？也就是，他们都想获得安全，所有的人。对不对？你们同意吗？你们来质疑，是否他们所有人都渴望安全。
34:56	S: And they are willing to kill for that.	学：并且他们愿意为此而杀戮。
34:59	K: That’s it. So each person says, ‘This is my security and your security, so we are going to fight’. Which means what?	克：是这样的。所以每个人都说，“这是我的安全那是你的安全，所以我们将为此而战”。这一切又意味着什么呢？
35:12	S: But then your life is threatened, so...	学：但是你的生命因此受到了威胁，所以...
35:14	K: Yes. So there is no security. Right? Look at it carefully first.	克：是的。所以根本就没有安全。对不对？首先认真地观察这一点。
35:22	S: Then your security has been completely psychological security.	学：那么，你的安全完全是一种心理上的安全。
35:26	K: That’s it. That’s it.	克：是这样的。是这样的。
35:27	S: Nothing having to do with actually what’s happening.	学：与实际上正在发生的一切毫无关系。
35:30	K: That’s right. So, now, haven’t you learnt something, haven’t you become intelligent? Right? You see something. That is, I seek security in the nation, you seek security in your nation, and we are going to fight each other to be secure. And the governments exploit us, people exploit us for that reason. So there is no security as long as there are nationalities.	克：是这样的。那么，现在，难道你们不是已经领悟了些什么吗难道你们不是已经变得有智慧了吗？对不对？你们有了一些理解。就是说，我在国家里寻找安全你在你的国家里寻找安全而且我们通过互相交战来获得安全。各国政府依此来利用我们，人们因为这样的原因而利用我们。所以，只要有各个国家存在，安全就不会存在。
36:16	S: What can we do about it? K: Darling, wait.	学：我们又能做什么呢？克：亲爱的，等一下。
36:25	S: But we insist that there is security in the nation.	学：但是我们坚信在国家里安全是存在的。
36:28	K: No, first see, by questioning we have come to this point that when we try to seek security in the family, in the community and so on, in the nation, and you also seek in your own way, nation, and they quarrel when they fight each other, kill each other, security is denied to both of us. Right? So in nationalities there is no security.	克：不，首先通过质疑来看一看，我们已经讨论到了这里那就是，当我们想要在家庭中寻找安全在团体中，等等，在国家里寻找或者你以你的方式在寻找，在你的国家里寻找于是人们争吵，彼此陷入战争，互相杀戮我们双方就都失去了安全。对不对? 所以，当不同的国家存在，就没有安全。
37:03	S: But how do we actually see that? That there is no security in... K: It is obvious.	学：但是我们如何能真正看到这一点？看到那样是没有安全可言的... 克：这是显而易见的。
37:11	S: Nothing can be done if almost everybody thinks like that.	学：但是当几乎每一个人都是那样想的时候，人们就无能为力了。
37:16	K: The vast majority, 99.9 say, ‘Yes, we must kill each other to be secure’.	克：绝大部分人，99.9%的人都说 “是的，为了安全，我们必须互相残杀”。
37:26	S: But that’s just..	学：但是，那只是... 学：好吧。
37:28	S: OK. If it’s so... K: Not OK.	如果那是如此... 克：不“好”。（笑声）
37:31	S: No. Could I just say something? You know, if it is so obvious, why don’t we actually change? I’ve talked to students and staff after these talks and they are just as confused as ever. If it really is obvious that there is no security in my belief, my country and so on.	学：不是。能不能让我说一下？你知道，如果这是如此显而易见，我们为什么不真正地改变呢？听了这些讲话后我和学生以及工作人员讨论过他们还是和以往一样的困惑。如果我的信仰里是没有安全的，而这点真的如此显而易见我的国家里没有安全，等等。克：等一下，我的国家。
37:51	K: Wait a minute, my country. It’s an illusion, isn’t it?	那只是一个幻象，难道不是吗？
37:58	S: You mean it’s not real. K: No. It doesn’t exist. I want security and you want security, and we say, ‘Security lies in my nation’, and you say security lies in your nation, and we are killing each other. Right? The United Nations is like that. Right? So, there is no security in nationalities. Right?	学：你是说，国家不是真实存在的。克：是的，它不存在。我渴望安全你也渴望安全于是我们说，“安全在我的国家里” 你说安全在你的国家里接着我们彼此杀戮。对不对？联合国就是这样的。对不对？所以，只要国家存在，安全就不存在。对不对？
38:42	S: But we see that, but that doesn’t change, it is the same after the talk, the same, it’s my country. I saw it is not a security but it is always here.	学：这点我们明白，但是这也改变不了我们结束这次谈话后，一切还是老样子，这是我的国家。我能认识到那不是安全，但是情况还是一贯如此。
38:55	K: What?	克：什么？
38:59	S: He says it doesn’t change after you know it’s your security...	学：他是说，即使你知道是没有安全的，什么也不会因此改变...
39:02	K: You change. Don’t bother about the rest. You become intelligent. We are talking about intelligence. When you see for yourself there is no security in nationalities that very perception is intelligence. Right?	克：你改变。不要去担心其他人。你变得有智慧。我们讨论的是智慧。当你自己认识到国家里是没有安全可言的这领悟本身即是智慧。对不对？
39:24	S: But he is saying that he has only partially seen it, so when he goes out he is still going on with it.	学：但是一个人会说，他只是明白了一部分而已所以当他走出去时，他仍然会继续以往的做法。
39:29	K: Then you haven’t seen it. Be as simple as that. If you don’t see it, don’t say it’s partial. It’s like examining, a lot of blind people looking at an elephant.	克：那么你就是还没有明白。就是这么简单的事情。如果你还没有明白，不要说你明白了一部分。这就像盲人摸象，一大群盲人在观察一只大象。
39:51	S: Why do we all say we do see it?	学：为什么我们都说我们确实明白了？克：那么就不要做一个国家主义者。
39:53	K: Then don’t be a nationalist. That’s intelligence. Right?	那就是智慧。对不对？
40:06	S: I don’t know what intelligence is.	学：我不知道什么是智慧。
40:10	K: You explain it, somebody explain.	克：你们来解释给他听，谁来解释一下。
40:11	S: Well, somebody tell me what intelligence is. Someone.	学：好吧，谁来告诉我什么是智慧。谁来说。学：他刚才已经告诉你了... 学：不是那样。
40:16	S: He has already told you last... S: No. I’ve already heard what he says, now I want to hear what someone in here says.	我已经听过他所讲的了现在我想听在座的哪一位来说一下。
40:23	S: What, you mean the proper definition or...	学：说什么，你是要听确切的定义还是...
40:24	S: No, intelligence, what is it for you?	学：不，智慧，对你来说，智慧是什么？
40:27	S: For me? You mean – well, I believe what he says.	学：对我来说？你是指 - 好的，我相信他所说的。（笑声）
40:34	K: You don’t believe what I say.	克：你不要相信我所说的。
40:44	S: No, would someone care to explain?	学：不是，哪个人愿意来解释一下吗...
40:47	S: I would say it is an action that is not contradictory, somehow intelligence has to be whole, it cannot be fragmented. I mean, not that you say something and then you do something completely opposite.	学：我认为那是一种行动，其中没有冲突反正智慧必须是完整的，它不能被割裂开来我的意思是，你不会说一套然后却做出完全相反的事情。
41:01	S: But do you actually live that way?	学：但是你真能那样去生活吗？学：我做不到。
41:04	S: No.	学：所以你说的只是一堆空话。学：没错。
41:05	S: So it’s just a bunch of words. S: Yes.	学：但是，请不要把事情弄得太复杂，因为
41:09	S: But again, don’t make it so complicated because Krishnaji is just taking one thing and he is talking about nationalism and he says if you drop nationalism, you are beginning to be intelligent, and that’s the beginning of intelligence.	克里希那吉只是举了一个例子他所说的是关于国家主义的问题他说，如果你放下国家主义的想法你就会开始变得有智慧那就是智慧的开端。
41:27	S: Yes, but we always talk about this intelligence, we all want to live intelligently, but we never do. You know, we leave this room... K: It’s up to you.	学：对，但是我们总是在讨论这个智慧我们所有人都想生活得智慧，但是我们从来都没有做到过。你们知道，当我们离开这个房间... 克：这取决于你。学：我们能做到。学：我们能吗？是吗？真的吗？
41:35	S: We do that. S: We do? Do we? Really?	学：你能做到吗？学：我做不到。
41:37	S: Do you? S: I don’t do.	学：从现在开始，做到这一点。
41:39	S: From now on do that.	学：我们都清楚，在座的每个人对所讲的都有所了解
41:44	S: It’s clear that everyone here knows a bit of what is going on and is a bit intelligent, I think, and still you see the mess here in the school. I mean it’s nice to be here, but still exactly the same problems are here as everywhere else in the world.	都有一点的智慧，我认为但你还是会看到这学校里的混乱。我是说，待在这很不错，但还是这里的问题和世界上其他地方的问题完全一样。
42:02	S: You can understand it but it’s hard to actually do it.	学：你可以明白道理，但要实际做到却是很困难的。
42:06	K: You understand, I have lived in India and I believe, I am convinced my security is in India, and you are convinced in Pakistan next door, that your security lies in Pakistan, and we fight each other for our security. Right? Kill each other. You have no security when you kill me, and I have no security when I kill you. It is so obvious. Right? What are we... This is intelligence.	克：你们知道，我曾经在印度生活过我相信，我深信不疑，在印度我可以获得安全而你在邻国巴基斯坦，也同样深信不疑你可以在巴基斯坦获得安全于是我们为各自的安全而交战。是这样吗？彼此杀戮。杀死我的时候你是没有安全的我也无法因杀死你而获得安全。这是多么显而易见啊。对不对？我们是...这个就是智慧。
42:51	S: But still, you know, there is this block. I don’t actually see it. S: Ken, are you nationalistic? Or are you talking about the subtler issues that we...	学：但是，你知道，仍然存在这种阻碍。我没有真正地看清这点。学：肯，你是国家主义者吗？还是你在讨论一些更微妙的事情，比如我们...
43:00	S: Perhaps, I don’t know. I can see it on the surface, yes, to believe in nationalism there is no security in it, but...	学：或许吧，我不知道。从表面上说，我能够理解，信仰国家主义并不能带来安全，但是... 克：好吧，让我们把国家主义放下。
43:08	K: All right, let’s leave nationalism.	学：但是还有一些...
43:11	S: But there is still something...	学：我觉得，要真正地看到这个事实，我必须要感觉到些什么。
43:14	S: I feel I must feel something to actually see this. You know what I mean?	你知道我的意思吗？克：噢，是的，我明白你的意思。
43:18	K: Oh yes, I understand what you mean. People feel very patriotic, don’t they? When this country is attacked, or went to war in the Falklands people were tremendously excited, very patriotic. And for that reason go and kill somebody.	人们内心非常地爱国，不是吗？当一个国家遭到了袭击，或者加入了福克兰群岛（马岛）之战人们极其兴奋，非常的爱国。并且人们因此上战场去杀人。
43:43	S: We are so small-minded.	学：我们的头脑是如此狭隘。
43:47	K: What? S: Nothing.	克：什么？学：没什么。
43:55	K: Let’s take another thing, perhaps that will explain it.	克：我们再来举个例子，或许可以解释清楚。
44:01	S: But if he can’t see that one, is he going to see? If he can’t see that as intelligence, what can he see?	学：但是如果他不明白这一点，其他的他会明白吗？如果他不明白那是智慧，他能明白什么呢？（笑声）
44:19	K: She is insulting you!	克：她在侮辱你！（笑声）
44:23	S: I don’t mean to.	学：我不是有意的。
44:28	K: She says, if you can’t see that, what the hell can you see! So let’s take something else. We are questioning authority. In Christianity – – I am not condemning Christianity, I am just examining it – in Christianity belief and faith are essential. Right? Why have they made belief and faith so important?	克：她说，如果你连这点都不理解，你到底能理解什么呢！那么我们来另举一个例子。我们正在质疑权威。在基督教里 - 我不是要声讨基督教我只是在审视在基督教里，信仰和忠诚是最核心的。对不对？为什么他们要如此强调信仰和忠诚？
45:06	S: Well, if I live according to the Christian belief, I’ll live eternally after I die.	学：嗯，如果我依照基督教的信仰生活我死后将能获得永生。
45:12	K: Yes, what does that mean – question it. What does that mean?	克：是的，那又是什么意思- 质疑它。那意味着什么？
45:16	S: It is another kind of security. K: Yes. You see? Right? If I believe in Jesus, if I believe in the Virgin Mary, if I believe, have complete faith, I feel safe. Right? And the Indian, 5000 years, says, ‘I believe not in Jesus, but I believe in my own god’. He feels perfectly safe. You come along and say, ‘What nonsense this is. It is just a belief’. You can invent any belief and find security in that. Right? So is there security in belief?	学：那是另一种安全。克：是的。你们明白了吗？对不对？如果我信仰耶稣，如果我信仰圣母玛利亚如果我有信仰，有完全的忠诚，我就感到安全。对不对？在印度，人们五千年来都在说，“我信仰的不是耶稣而是我自己的神”。人们感觉到绝对的安全。你走过来，对我们说，“这简直是无稽之谈。那仅仅是种信仰而已”。你可以发明任何一种信仰然后从中找到安全感。对不对？那么信仰中有安全可言吗？
46:04	S: No.	学：没有。克：对不对？你为什么说，“没有”？
46:05	K: Right? Why do you say, ‘No’?	学：因为如果你...
46:08	S: Well, because if you...	克：你为什么说，“没有”？质疑你为什么说，“没有”。
46:11	K: Why do you say, ‘No’? Question why do you say, ‘No’.	学：因为如果你信那种宗教，我信这种宗教，我们相遇时
46:14	S: Because if you believe that, and I believe this, we meet, there is no security because we will blow each other into smithereens.	就不会有安全存在因为我们会把彼此打击得体无完肤。
46:20	K: It is the same thing with nationalities. Right? That’s all. So, understand now, a vast majority of the Western world accept this belief and faith in all their church and all that, they believe that very strongly. Which means what? They create an illusion, an image, and believe in that. Which means they are living in illusion. And illusion gives them safety. They feel safe in illusions. Right? Now have I got illusions? Have you got illusions?	克：国家主义也是同样的问题。对不对？就是这样的。那么，现在就弄明白，西方世界绝大部分的人都接受宗教信仰和忠诚在他们的教会以及所有这些地方，人们都有着根深蒂固的信仰。那又意味着什么呢？他们制造了一个幻象一种偶像，然后去信仰它。也就是说他们生活在幻象当中。而这种幻象为他们提供了安全感。他们在幻象当中感到安全。对不对？那么我心存幻象吗？你心存幻象吗？
47:17	S: OK, perhaps I’ve seen... K: Wait, question it.	学：好吧，可能我已经看到... 克：等一下，质疑它。
47:24	S: No, I’ve read that most of our thoughts are controlled by the subconscious, that which we are unaware of.	学：不是，我曾经读到过，我们的大部分思想都受控于我们的潜意识，然而我们对此毫无察觉。
47:32	K: We will come to that, old boy, presently. I am asking you, do you – I have asked that question, answer it. Do you have beliefs so strongly which give you comfort, feel, my god, at last I have found something that gives me satisfaction. That means, are you living in illusions? Right? Have you got illusions?	克：我们会讨论到那一点的，大男孩，很快。我在问你，你心存幻象吗我已经问了这个问题，请你回答。你有根深蒂固，给你带来安慰的信仰吗感觉到，天哪，我终于找到了某种能带给我满足的东西。这就是说，你是否活在幻象当中？对不对？你心存幻象吗？
48:03	S: Yes.	学：是的。克：质疑为什么会这样。
48:06	K: Question why.	学：如果你认为我是个好学生，那么就会认为我是个好学生
48:08	S: If you think I am a good student, and you think I am a good student, but then you see another person who is a better student or who perhaps is a bit quicker than you, and you get jealous.	但是接着你见到另外一个人，他是个更好的学生或者这个人学得比你快，于是你开始嫉妒。
48:19	K: Yes, go on.	克：是的，继续说。学：那么你一定会
48:24	S: And so you definitely, if you try to get away from the jealousy by suppressing it, it doesn’t work.	如果你试图以压抑的方式摆脱嫉妒那是没有用的。
48:36	K: No. I am asking you, old boy – if I may call you old boy – I am asking you, have you got any illusions?	克：不。我是在问你，大男孩- 如果我可以叫你大男孩... 我在问你 - 你心存任何幻象吗？
48:45	S: Yes.	学：是的。
48:48	K: Right? Question why you have.	克：对不对？质疑你为何心存幻象。
48:54	S: Because... K: Question. Question. First realise, first become aware that you have illusions. Right? I have illusions of my country, I have illusions that I’m a Christian, I worship and all the rest of it. That’s an illusion. And have you any other kind of illusions?	学：因为... 克：质疑。质疑。首先要意识到这点，首先要知道你心存幻象。对不对？我心存对国家的幻象我心存幻象- 我是一个基督徒我顶礼膜拜以及其他种种。这是幻象。那么你们还心存其他幻象吗？
49:22	S: We all have ideas or illusions of what or who we are.	学：关于我们是什么，我们是谁，我们都有一堆的想法和幻象。克：继续。那么想法是幻象吗？
49:25	K: Go on. So are ideas illusions? Go on, sir, question. Are ideals illusions?	继续，先生，质疑。各种理想是幻象吗？
49:38	S: Yes, because they never deal with what is happening right now. K: That’s right.	学：是的，因为人们从来都不去面对正在发生的事情。克：是这样的。
49:43	S: It’s always something you want to be, as compared to something.	学：当做了一番比较之后，你总想要成为点什么。
49:46	K: So, ideals, ideas – right? – and your beliefs are illusions. Why do you have them?	克：所以，各种理想，各种想法 - 对吗？还有你的各种信仰，都是幻象。为什么你们心存幻象？
50:01	S: Because you are insecure. K: Yes. So, you have found security in illusions.	学：因为你觉得不安全。克：是的。所以，人们在幻象当中找到了安全感。
50:10	S: Everyone thinks.	学：每个人都思考。
50:12	K: That’s what I am saying, everybody thinks, but I am asking you.	克：那就是我在说的，每个人都思考，但是我问的是你。
50:17	S: I have something to it, sometimes I think.	学：我可以理解一部分，我想有时候我可以。
50:20	K: Not sometimes, now. I am asking you now – have you got illusions of such kind in which you are living, with which you are living? Now, please understand why we are questioning. We are questioning all these things by understanding them, realizing their nature and becoming intelligent. If a man lives in kind of false illusions, he is not intelligent. Right? So we are trying to find out what is supreme intelligence. Supreme intelligence is to have no illusions. That’s only the beginning of it. Right? Have you got illusions?	克：不是有时候，现在。我现在正在问你- 你心存这样的幻象吗你是否生活在幻象中，你是否与这些幻象共处？现在，请明白我们为什么要质疑。我们通过去理解所有这一切来质疑了解它们的本质，并变得智慧。如果一个人生活在某种虚妄的幻象当中，他是不会有智慧的。对不对？所以我们要发现什么才是至高无上的智慧。至高无上的智慧就是不抱有任何幻象。那仅仅是智慧的开端。对不对？你们心存幻象吗？
51:22	S: Well, I have made an illusion of perhaps intelligence, you know. I think that if I find out what intelligence is, I will be completely by myself. K: Oh, no. I might join you.	学：好的，我可能对智慧心存一个幻象，你知道的。我认为如果我明白了什么是智慧我就会变得完全孤立。克：哦，不会。我可能加入你的行列。（笑声）
51:38	S: You know, and that scares the hell out of me.	学：你知道，想到这一点，我就觉得非常恐怖。
51:41	K: I might join you. All of us might join you and say, ‘By Jove, what an intelligent man, let’s find out how he got this intelligence’. So do you, all of us in this room, do you have illusions?	克：我可能会加入你的行列。我们所有的人都可能加入你然后对你说，“天哪，这是个多么智慧的人啊让我们来看看他是如何变得如此智慧的”。那么你们，我们在座的所有人，你们心存幻象吗？
51:59	S: Aren’t your words illusions for us?	学：你的话难道对我们来说不是幻象吗？
52:14	S: That depends on you.	学：这取决于你。
52:16	S: Isn’t what you say illusion for us?	学：你所说的难道对我们来说不是幻象吗？克：如果你接受的话。（笑声）
52:20	K: If you accept it. But if you begin to question your illusions, not my illusions.	但是如果你开始质疑你的各种幻象而不是质疑我的幻象。
52:37	S: You don’t talk about stopping your illusions or suppressing them, just questioning them. K: Yes. If you suppress them, they will pop up again. Like Kleenex!	学：你说的并非停止幻象或者压制它们而仅仅是质疑它们。克：是的。如果你压制它们，它们还会再一次突然冒出来。（笑声）像舒洁（Kleenex）纸巾一样！
53:03	S: If... No.	学：如果...不。（笑声）克：女士优先。
53:06	K: Ladies first.	学：我们心中的许多幻象也是产生于我们的局限
53:10	S: Isn’t it true also that many of our illusions breed from our conditioning? K: Yes.	难道不是这样吗？克：是的。
53:16	S: And what I wonder is that – OK, this is just for myself only – that I’ve grown up with an exposure to what you have been saying since I’ve been a baby.	学：但我仍然想知道- 好吧，这仅仅是给我自己问的我从婴儿时期开始就是在你所说的那些幻象中成长起来的。克：那么，请等一下，如你所说
53:28	K: So, wait a minute, as you said, do not all these illusions indicate our conditioning?	难道这些幻象不正是显示出了我们的局限吗？
53:39	S: Yes.	学：是的。
53:40	K: Now, question your conditioning now.	克：那么，现在来质疑你的局限。
53:43	S: Well, I think... K: First look at it carefully. What’s your conditioning?	学：好的，我想... 克：首先仔细地审视它。你的局限是什么？
53:48	S: I haven’t had that religious or political conditioning.	学：我从来都没有那些宗教或者政治的局限。
53:52	K: No, you may not have religious or political conditioning, but you are conditioned. Right? Question that. What do you mean by conditioning? Are you conditioned?	克：不，你或许不受宗教或者政治局限但你是有局限的。对不对？质疑它。你说的局限是什么意思？你是局限的吗？
54:07	S: Conditioned by my own experience even. Maybe not even anything K: That’s right. Then you begin to question your experience.	学：甚至是被我自己的经验所限。或许甚至任何事情都不... 克：是这样的。那么开始质疑你的经验。
54:14	S: I am trying. It’s so difficult to separate it. K: No. By questioning, not saying, ‘I am right, I am wrong’ – right? – by enquiring, exploring your mind which has become dull through conditioning begins to quicken, not quicken, it becomes more alive. Now, will you all do this? You are here at Brockwood not only to be academically excellent but also psychologically supremely intelligent. Right?	学：我正在努力。（笑声）但是要区分开来就太难了。克：不。去质疑，而不是说，“我是对的，我是错的” - 对不对？通过质询，探索你由于局限而变得迟钝的头脑开始变得灵敏不是灵敏，而是变得更有活力。那么，你们所有的人都会这样做吗？你们在布洛克伍德学校，不仅仅是要在学业上优秀而且也要在心理上有超凡的智慧。对不对？
55:16	S: That’s an illusion.	学：那是个幻象。（笑声）克：那是什么？
55:20	K: What’s that?	学：那是一个幻象，因为它会伤害...
55:22	S: It’s an illusion, because it can hurt...	克：不，不，不。先听我说。
55:27	K: No, no, no. Just listen. Is it an illusion that you have to be academically good?	你要在学业上出色，那是个幻象吗？
55:42	S: If you work hard enough, you can be academically good.	学：如果你足够努力，就可以在学业上表现出色。
55:47	K: You can be excellent academically, can’t you? By studying.	克：你们可以在学业上表现得很出色，对不对？通过学习。
55:53	S: Yes, but... K: Wait, wait. Right? Studying, applying, paying attention to your beastly little books.	学：是的，但是... 克：等一下，等一下。好吗？学习，学以致用，专心致志于你那些令人讨厌的小小课本。
56:02	S: Yes, but some of it’s interesting so what’s bad about that? Some of it’s interesting. Some of the work that you do is interesting. K: Yes, you have to be because it means, if you are excellent academically, you may get a good job. Money. You have to earn. Now, psychologically, can’t you be supremely excellent? Which means you live intelligently therefore there is never conflict, and so on. I won’t go into all that.	学：是的，但是其中的一些很有意思，那又有什么不好呢？有一些是很有意思的。你做的某些工作是很有趣的。克：是的，你必须要在学业上出色，因为这意味着学业上的出色成绩可能会帮你获得不错的工作。金钱。你必须要挣钱。那么，在心理上，难道你们不能做到超凡的出色吗？那意味着你们要智慧地生活那样生活中就永远没有冲突，等等。我不会深入讲这些了。
56:38	S: So we have to think about everything we do, I mean all our reactions.	学：所以我们必须要考虑我们所做的每一件事我是说我们所有的反应。克：是的。你们必须要注意观察
56:43	K: Yes. You have to watch what you think, why you think, why you have such emotions, why you separate yourself from... and so on. You become aware, you become sensitive, alive.	你们所想的，以及为什么你会那么想你为什么会有如此种种的情绪为什么你有人我分别，等等。你会变得清醒，敏感和充满活力。
56:58	S: We try.	学：我们会尝试。
57:00	S: Yes, I think most people in this room have actually tried it, but after a period of time we forget about it.	学：是的，我想在座的大部分人都真的尝试过但是一段时间后我们就都淡忘了。
57:08	K: Can you forget hunger? S: No. But we become aware of...	克：你会忘记饥饿吗？学：不会。但是我们会感觉到饥饿... 克：不，不要离题。
57:14	K: No, don’t go off. Can you forget danger?	你们会忘记危险吗？
57:19	S: No. But that’s all the result of the intelligence of the body. K: Look at it, old boy, just wait a minute. Can you forget danger?	学：不会。但是那完全是身体智慧的结果。克：想一想，大男孩，请等一下。你会忘记危险吗？学：不会。
57:29	S: No.	克：先生，为什么？你为什么无法忘记危险？
57:30	K: Sir, why? Why don’t you forget it? Question it. I am questioning you, and you’re answering.	质疑它。我在质问你，而你在回答我。
57:38	S: I don’t want to die. If you are pointing a gun at me...	学：我不想死。如果你拿一把枪对着我...
57:42	K: Please, you know what danger is. S: Yes.	克：好了，你知道什么是危险。学：是的。
57:45	K: Do you forget it? S: No.	克：你会忘记危险吗？学：不会。
57:49	K: Why not? S: I think you do.	克：为什么不会？学：我想你会忘记。
57:52	S: OK, physical danger I don’t forget.	学：好吧，身体上的危险我不会忘记。克：你不会。
57:56	K: You won’t. Is not nationalism danger?	难道国家主义不危险吗？
58:02	S: Yes.	学：是的。
58:06	K: So, you say, ‘I am not a nationalist, I don’t belong to any country’. That’s a danger. Right? Why do you forget it? You can’t.	克：那么，你说，“我不是一个国家主义者我不属于任何一个国家”。那是个危险。对不对？你为什么忘记这点？你不能忘记它。学：但是我会忘。我会忘。
58:31	S: But I do. I do.	克：你会忘记？
58:35	K: You do?	学：哦，看在老天的份上...这真是太难了。
58:37	S: Oh, for god’s sake! This is all very difficult.	克：不，不。
58:40	K: No, no. You see, you are not questioning, you are saying something without... I am asking you to question everything you do, think, ask.	你看，你没有在质疑，你说的话没有（好好考虑）我请你来质疑你做的一切，想的一切，询问的一切。
58:59	S: Well, perhaps that is not possible with the modern condition.	学：好吧，或许在现代的条件下，那是不可能的。
59:03	K: That’s an excuse. You can question.	克：那是一个借口。你可以去质疑。
59:10	S: Sir, it seems the past year I have been really questioning everything I think. And sometimes I feel I am just going in circles.	学：先生，在过去的一年中我一直在认真地质疑着质疑我思考的每一件事。但是有时我感觉自己仅仅是在兜圈子
59:19	K: Of course. But you are not questioning thinking.	只是在我思想的范围里... 克：当然。但是你没有质疑思想本身。
59:25	S: Well, I am questioning that right now. I am questioning that, it seems within our intellect we try to become more aware of our thoughts, and it’s like our thoughts are aware of our thoughts.	学：嗯，我正在质疑它。（笑声）我在质疑，似乎在我们智力的范围内我们想要对自己的思想变得更觉知但是那似乎是我们的思想在觉察我们的思想
59:34	K: Yes, quite right. But, you don’t... Look, I begin to question nationalism. Right? Then I come to the point I question my thinking – thinking itself.	而且就像... 克：是的，非常对。但是，你不能... 你看，我开始质疑国家主义。对不对？然后我深入到某一点开始质疑思想 - 思想本身。
59:50	S: So, it’s like the intellect is only an instrument, and it’s like it becomes sharper and sharper, to a certain point, it just becomes – there’s nothing more you can do with it.	学：那么，就像智力只是一种工具而且就像是，它变得越来越锋利，达到某种程度它就变得 - 你就再没有什么可做的了。
1:00:01	K: It becomes sharper and sharper therefore at the end of it, it becomes dull. Have you understood what I said? The more you sharpen an instrument, it gradually wears off and becomes dull. Right? A chisel, keep on polishing, polishing and using it, it becomes dull. So question why your mind is becoming dull by merely going round and round.	克：它变得越来越锋利，因此最终，它变得非常迟钝。学：那是... 克：你明白我刚才说的话吗？你越是磨砺你的工具工具就会渐渐损耗而最终变得迟钝。对不对？一个凿子，不断地磨啊磨啊不断地使用，最终将变得非常钝。所以质疑为什么你的头脑仅仅是不停地兜圈子，为何会变得迟钝。
1:00:39	S: Because it is all thought, it’s just...	学：因为那都是思想，那只是...
1:00:41	K: No, you are not questioning it. I get depressed – suppose I do, I don’t, I have no depression, I never have been depressed – suppose I am depressed. I say, ‘Yes, I am very depressed’. I accept it. I don’t say, ‘Now, why am I depressed?’ Is it I am thinking about myself? Is it I can’t get what I want? Is it somebody is better than me? Somebody is more beautiful than me? Somebody is more rich, and so on, so on, is that the reason why I am depressed? Right? If I am, then I say, ‘Why am I doing this?’ You follow? Move. Right, sir? Are you doing it?	克：不，你没有在质疑。我变得沮丧-假设我沮丧，其实我没有，我并没有抑郁症我从来没有沮丧过，- 假设我现在是沮丧的。我说，“是的，我非常沮丧”。我接受它。我不说，“那么，我为何沮丧呢？” 是因为我想着我自己吗？是因为我无法得到我渴望获得的吗？是因为某人比我强吗？是因为有人比我美丽吗？是因为有人比我富有吗？等等，等等那是我沮丧的原因所在吗？对不对？如果是因为那些，我会说，“我为何要这样做？” 你们明白吗？行动。对不对，先生？你在这样做吗？
1:02:06	S: Sir, I think there must be a result or a decision from this very questioning. So shall we go on questioning this result?	学：先生，我想从这种质疑当中必然会产生一个结果或者决定。那么我们应该继续质疑这个结果吗？
1:02:20	K: I don’t quite understand.	克：我不是很明白。
1:02:22	S: He says the questioning brings about a result. Should we question the result as well?	学：他是说，这个质疑会带来一个结果。我们应该也同样质疑那个结果吗？
1:02:32	K: Of course.	克：当然。
1:02:35	S: But then when we react...	学：但是那么当我们作出反应...
1:02:38	K: You stop questioning only when there’s nothing more to question. That’s not a clever statement, but see what happens. That when you begin to question seriously, step by step, then there is a point where there is only that state of mind that has no problems at all. I won’t go into all this. But you don’t start! You want to reach the end at the beginning.	克：只有当已经没有任何可以去质疑的事情时你才可以停止质疑。（笑声）这不是一个自作聪明的说法，而是去看看会发生什么。那就是当你开始认真地质疑，一步一步的直到某一点，那里只有一种头脑的状态一种完全没有任何问题的状态。我不会深入讲这些了。但是你们都不去开始！你们在起点就想达到终点。
1:03:21	S: Sir, do you say then that if you are depressed, question it or just be aware of it? If you are depressed, are you saying we should question it or just be aware of it?	学：先生，你是不是说，当一个人沮丧的时候，质疑沮丧还是说仅仅觉察到沮丧？当你沮丧的时候，你是说我们应该质疑沮丧吗还是仅仅去觉察到沮丧？
1:03:33	K: Yes, I am depressed, I’ll show it to you. I want to know why I am depressed. I don’t say, ‘Yes, I am depressed’. I say, ‘Why am I depressed? Is it I have eaten wrongly? I have not slept properly? Or I am depressed because I can’t get what I want or I can’t – I am not as good as you, or I am not as clever as you’. Right? Which means I am always comparing. Why do I compare? Is it possible not to compare? See, I am questioning all this. Can I live without comparison?	克：是的，我沮丧，我来解释给你看。我想知道我为何沮丧。我不说，“是的，我沮丧”。而是说，“我为何沮丧？是因为我吃错了东西吗？是不是因为我没有好好睡觉？或者我的沮丧是因为我没有获得我渴望的东西吗再或者 - 是因为我不如你优秀，还是我没有你聪明”。对不对？那就意味着我总是在比较。我为何要比较？有没有可能不比较呢？看，我在质疑这一切。我可以在生活中不进行比较吗？
1:04:30	S: If we ask continually why, can’t that process just reinforce that whole ego thing that we are trying to question? K: Of course. That’s why I am saying it must be done with intelligence. So you begin with the most ordinary things.	学：如果我们一直不停地问为什么当我们努力地不停质疑时难道这个过程不正加强整个自我吗？克：当然。那就是我为什么说需要用智慧来进行这样的质疑。所以你从最普通的事情开始质疑。
1:04:52	S: And that intelligence we don’t have. We try to get intelligence and we have to use our intelligence to get the intelligence.	学：但是我们没有你说的那种智慧。我们试图变得有智慧而我们必须用我们的智慧来获得那智慧。
1:05:01	S: Yes, exactly. That’s the problem.	学：是的，就是那样。（笑声）那就是问题所在...
1:05:09	S: It’s like, what intelligence are you talking about? I mean, the description of intelligence we understand is that intelligence is not limited by thought or experience.	学：就像是，你谈的究竟是哪种智慧？我的意思是，我们所了解的对智慧的描述是这种智慧是不会被思想和经验所局限的。
1:05:19	K: Yes.	克：是的。
1:05:19	S: So how can I use the intelligence I have right now that is limited by thought and experience? I mean it seems so...	学：那么我又怎么能使用我目前所拥有的被思想和经验所局限的智慧呢？
1:05:25	K: No. Have you got intelligence now?	我的意思是这看起来那么... 克：不。你现在拥有智慧吗？
1:05:28	S: I think I do sometimes, yes.	学：我觉得有时候我有，是的。
1:05:31	K: Not sometimes. S: I can’t say that I do.	克：不是有时。学：我不能说我有智慧。
1:05:33	K: You see, you make... Now why don’t you question that? Have you got intelligence now? S: I don’t think I do, no.	克：你看，你把...那么你为何不质疑这点呢？你现在拥有智慧吗？学：我认为我没有，并没有。
1:05:40	K: No. So begin.	克：没有。那么开始质疑吧。
1:05:42	S: Not the intelligence that I want to have.	学：不是我想要的智慧。
1:05:43	K: So begin. Are you nationalistic, are you seeking safety in your little family, seeking security in your ideas? Sir, I am doing all the questioning, you’re not.	克：那么开始质疑吧。你是国家主义者吗你在你的小家庭里寻求安全吗在你的想法中寻求安全吗？先生，我在进行质疑的行动，而你却没有。
1:05:58	S: What if you seek security in some things but not in others?	学：如果你在一些事情上寻求安全，却不在另外的事情中寻求安全，那会怎样？
1:06:07	K: Yes. So what do you seek security in? In your looks? In your family? In some god? In some illusion? You see, I am doing... Sir, what I am pointing out very simply is, most of us are so conditioned – right? – that we become very dull. We repeat what somebody has said or we read a great deal and be very knowledgeable, but you may be stupid. So I say, find out for yourself what is intelligence. And you can find out that by asking, questioning, doubting. You can’t doubt everything, there is electricity, that light is there, you can’t doubt it. Right? The tree, you can’t doubt it, it is there. Right? The governments are there, the policeman is there. All the churches, all the things in the churches are there. So you begin to question.	克：好的。那么你在什么事情里寻求安全？从你的长相吗？从你的家庭吗？从某个神那里吗？从某个幻象里吗？你看，我在质疑...（笑声）先生，我想指出的事情非常简单我们大部分的人是非常局限的 - 对不对？也就是说 - 我们变得非常迟钝。我们重复别人所说的话或者我们读很多的书从而变得很有知识，但是你可能依然很愚蠢。所以我说，你自己去发现，什么才是智慧。并且你可以通过提问，质疑和怀疑来找到答案。你不可能怀疑所有的事物比如说电的存在，灯光的存在，你不能质疑这个。对不对? 那棵树就在这，你不能去怀疑这点。对不对？政府存在，警察存在。所有的教堂，以及教堂里的一切都在那儿。所以你要开始去质疑。学：你的焦虑也在。
1:07:40	S: Your anxiety is there.	克：是的，或者科学家们也在。
1:07:45	K: Yes, or the scientists.	学：他是说，你的焦虑存在。克：焦虑。好的。
1:07:48	S: He said, your anxiety. K: Anxiety. All right. Question anxiety. Why are you anxious? The majority of people are anxious. Right? Because they have no money or they are anxious their husband may be looking at somebody else. Right? Anxiety. Are you anxious, any of you? You are anxious?	质疑焦虑感。你们为何会焦虑？大部分人都焦虑。对不对？因为他们没有钱或者是因为担心她们的丈夫可能在看别人。对不对？焦虑。你们焦虑吗，在座的每一位？你焦虑吗？
1:08:21	S: Sometimes, yes. K: Why?	学：有时候，是的。克：为什么呢？
1:08:24	S: Because of different things. K: Tell me one.	学：因为不同的事情。克：告诉我一件。
1:08:29	S: No.	学：不。学：难道不是因为我们太过拼命地追求安全感
1:08:34	S: Isn’t it that the desperateness for security is very forceful that the atmosphere of questioning is not there, that’s why...	以至于质疑的氛围就消失了吗，这就是为什么...
1:08:47	K: Tunki, I can’t hear you.	克：汤奇，我听不到你说什么。
1:08:52	S: What he says is that the desperate search for security prevents actual questioning.	学：他说的是，因为我们不顾一切地追寻安全，这妨碍了真正的质疑。
1:08:57	K: Yes, sir.	克：是的，先生。
1:09:00	S: So, how can questioning... K: Now just a minute, Tunki, when I am very anxious I can’t question. Right? But then I begin, there must be – I am not anxious all the time. There is anxiety when I wake up and as I take my coffee or tea, whatever it is, that anxiety recedes a little bit, then I begin to question.	学：那么，质疑怎么能够... 克：请等一下，汤奇如果我非常焦虑，我就无法质疑。对不对？但是接着我开始...一定会有- 我不会一直都焦虑。当我醒来时，我焦虑然后我喝了杯咖啡或者茶，不管是什么焦虑退去了一点点，接着我就开始质疑了。
1:09:41	S: In this questioning of why, would it not be important to question without trying to find an answer. It seems that if we try to find an answer, we just give ourselves excuses for what we are.	学：在这个质疑为什么的过程中非常重要的是，质疑但是不试图从中找到一个答案。情况似乎是，如果我们试图找出一个答案我们只是给我们现在的样子找各种借口而已。
1:09:53	K: Of course. When you question and find an answer, question that answer. You follow, sir? Learn the art. It’s not just that you begin to question everything, learn the art of questioning. You stop questioning sometimes and say, ‘Yes, by Jove, why am I questioning?’ Look without questioning. You follow? Learn about it.	克：当然。当你质疑并且找出了一个答案，就质疑那个答案。（笑声）你明白吗，先生？学会这种艺术。那并非仅仅是你开始去质疑一切学会质疑的艺术。有时你停下来，然后说 “是的，天哪，我为何在质疑？” 不带质疑地观察一下。你们明白吗？学会它。
1:10:25	S: Do people become discouraged with their questioning because they don’t get something from it?	学：当人们质疑，却无法从中得到什么的时候他们会变得气馁吗？
1:10:29	K: Yes, sir. They get discouraged, disappointed, hurt.	克：是的，先生。人们会变得气馁，失望，感觉受伤。
1:10:35	S: Because they want something that will give them security.	学：因为他们渴望有什么东西可以为他们带来安全。
1:10:37	K: Yes. Or, I have been secure and you’re taking it away from me, I become anxious. What I am, sir, – just two minutes, just listen. Will you? I saw that ticket, that sticker on that bumper in California and I said, I wonder if the gentleman or the person who put that sticker on the bumper really questions, or it’s just a slogan. You understand what I am saying? It is just a slogan, but he never questions, says, ‘Why am I doing this? Why am I thinking this? Why do I believe?’ So, questioning is a great art. Right? It isn’t that I question, I move, I see the subtleties of it. Right? See the depth of it. And the beauty of enquiry, see bit by bit how extraordinarily complex this thing is. Why man has lived in illusions for thousands of years; if it is not Christian gods, then there is Muslim gods. Right? If it isn’t that, there have been gods by the thousand for the last 5000 years and more. Some like the Buddhists deny god, but there is always this search, longing for something beyond all this misery. Right? All this conflict, all this ugliness in the world. So they invent something and they worship it. You understand?	克：是的。或者，我已经有安全感了，可是你要把它从我这里拿走我变得很焦虑。我是这样的...先生- 只需要两分钟，请听我说。可以吗？我看到那张贴纸，在加州那辆车的保险杠上的贴纸于是我说，我想知道将贴纸贴在保险杠上的那位绅士，或者那个人他真的质疑了吗，还是说，那仅仅是一个口号。你明白我所说的吗？那只是一个口号而他从来都不质疑，从来不说，“我为何这样做？我为何这么想？我为何相信？” 所以，质疑是一种了不起的艺术。对不对？不只是我去质疑，去行动，而且我看到其中的微妙之处。对不对？看到它的深邃。看到质询当中的美一点一点地看到，这是多么不同寻常的复杂的一件事。人类为何在幻象中生活了几千年的时间如果不是基督教的诸神，那么就会有穆斯林的诸神。对不对？如果没有那些神，人类在过去的五千年甚至更久的时间里就会有数以千计各种各样的别的神。有些人，比如佛教徒，否认神的存在但是人们始终都在追寻都在渴望超越这一切苦难的东西。对不对？超越所有的这些冲突，世界上所有的丑陋。于是人们发明了一些事物，然后去崇拜它。你们明白吗？
1:13:05	S: Like enlightenment. K: Yes, quite right. Enlightenment is not something you experience or something that somebody gives you. That’s all such nonsense. So, as I was saying, sir, find out the art of questioning. Learn a great deal about it. You spend a great deal of time, don’t you, in mathematics, learning mathematics. Right? Or geography, history, whatever it is, and you don’t give even ten minutes to this. And so you become excellent in one direction and dull in the other direction. What time is it? S: One o’clock.	学：就像觉悟。克：是的，非常对。觉悟并非你经历的某种经验也不是别人能带给你的东西。那些都是无稽之谈。所以，如我所说，先生，去发现质疑的艺术。好好地学习这种艺术。你们都花了大量时间，不是吗在数学上，学习数学。对不对？或者是在地理，历史上，无论你学什么而你们甚至不会给这件事十分钟的时间。所以你们在一方面变得出色在其他的方面却变得迟钝。几点了？学：一点。
1:14:12	K: I think we had better stop, don’t you. No? Would you like to try something? Sit very quietly – just a minute, just a minute – before you sit. Sit very quietly, absolutely quiet, with your eyes closed, and find out what you are thinking. And why you are thinking, that particular thought or a series of thoughts. Try it. And find out if your brain can be so quiet, without a single thought.	克：我想我们最好结束吧，你们说呢。不同意？（笑声）你们想做个尝试吗？请非常安静地坐着 - 就一分钟，就一分钟 - 在你坐下来之前。非常安静地坐着，完全的安静闭上眼睛，看看你在想些什么。以及你为何有这个特定的想法或者有这一系列的思绪。试一下。看一看，你的大脑是否可以如此安静，完全没有任何想法。