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BR84Q2 - 第二次问答会
布鲁克伍德公园，英国
1984年8月30日



1:54 Krishnamurti: I am sorry the weather is breaking up. 很遗憾今天天气不好。
2:06 Before we begin to enquire into the question, or questions, we should talk over together what is peace and its relationship to intelligence. You don’t mind if I talk? 在我们开始探询问题，探询这些问题之前，我们应该 一起来探讨一下：什么是「和平」（peace），以及「和平」与智慧的关系。 你们不介意我谈论一下它吧？
2:39 In a world that is disintegrating with wars, and nationalism, and sectarianism, idealism, and every form of division, opinion against opinion, data against data, judgement against judgement, and so on, can we have peace in the world, first? Or can we live peacefully? 这是一个正在分裂瓦解的世界，充斥着战争、国家主义、 宗派主义、理想主义，以及各种形式的分裂 观点对抗着观点，数据对抗着数据 意见对抗着意见等等，我们能够先拥有这个世界的和平吗？ 或者我们能够和平地生活吗？
3:25 What does it mean to live together, man, woman, and so on, or a group of people, not committed to any belief or sect, or faith, and so on, can we live together peacefully? Apparently, this is one of the most difficult things in the world. Here, too, there is a great deal of disturbance going on, in England, strike after strike, and all the travails of human beings. And in the search for peace one goes off to a monastery, shaving one’s head, putting on some kind of garb and taking vows. This has been tried for generation upon generations, both in India, and in the West, and in the Far East, a group of people committed to live peacefully and to subjugate all their opinions, conforming to a certain pattern of idealism, certain dogmas, a way of monastic life, and so on. One heard the other day rather an extraordinary fact, thing. There was a man who was very good at writing – literary; he was doing quite well, newspapers, magazines, and all the rest of it, and he gave up all that one day, and he went off to some kind of retreat, ashrama, a guru collects round himself. And there, what do you think he is doing? Pulling old nails out of old wood, and he is perfectly happy. You understand all this? And he is living peacefully, he says. Is that peace? To completely forget the world, what is happening in the world; forget any kind of responsibility, put aside any kind of relationship with another and disappear into a commune, into a community, or enter into a monastery – which is highly organised, with the abbot whom he must obey utterly, and so on. 一起生活意味着什么呢，男人、女人，等等 或者一群不笃信任何信仰、教派 或信念等等的人，我们能够一起和平地生活吗？ 显然这是世界上最困难的事情之一。 而在这里，在英国，也正在发生着大量的骚乱， 连接不断的罢工，所有那些人类的苦难。 在寻找和平的过程中，我们会前往修道院，剃个光头 穿上某种特定的服装，然后宣誓。 人类世世代代都在努力做这样的事，不管是在印度 在西方世界，还是在远东地区，都有那么一群人，他们致力于 去和平地生活，让自己的一切观念都臣服于 都遵从某种理想主义的模式 或某些教条，过修道生活，等等。 本人前几天听说了一个很奇特的事实，一件奇特的事情。 曾经有一个人，他非常擅长于写作——文学类的写作 他写得很好，无论是报纸新闻，杂志文章，还是其他什么东西 然后有一天他放弃掉了所有这些东西，然后去了某个静修地 进入了四住期（ashrama：印度教中人生的四个阶段），然后陪伴在古鲁身边。 而在那里，你们猜他在做些什么？ 他做的事情就是从旧木头里拔出旧的钉子，但他却感到十分开心。 你们理解这一切了吗？ 他说他正过着和平宁静的生活。 然而这是「和平」吗？ 完全忘掉这个世界，忘掉这个世界正在发生的事； 忘掉所有的责任，抛开所有与他人的关系， 然后消失，去某个社群，去某个社区 或者进入某个修道院——那些高度组织化的修道院 那里会有一个院长，而他必须要完全服从院长，等等。
7:15 How does one find peace in the world, and in oneself? I am sure one has asked this question of oneself: to live completely peacefully in relationship to others, not isolate oneself, that is fairly simple and also it has its own dangers. The dangers are that you become more and more self-centred, or commit yourself to some symbol, a figure, or to some doctrinaire concept, and devote all one’s energy to that, keeping that to oneself and working in a garden, or in a vineyard. Champagne and the good wines of France were produced by the monks. And the monks have also fought, killed people. This has been going on for centuries. And one is living in a world that is really monstrously destructive, divisive, every form of brutality, and so on. Where does one find peace? Can a group of people live together peacefully? Whether they are teachers, educators, or man, woman, and so on? Does one look for peace? Or does one bring about peace? You understand? Does peace lie externally, outside the skin as it were; or does one really want peace? If one sets aside all the things that desire, will, thought have conceived what is peace, wanting peace, and committed to some form of regulation, whether it is so-called spiritual or otherwise. Lots of people have disappeared in the army because they have no responsibility there, governments look after you, like in a monastery, but you work, march, ready to kill, and so on. 一个人如何才能在这个世界上，以及自己内心找到和平呢？ 我确信你也曾问过自己这个问题： 和别人完全和平安宁地共处 而不是孤立自己——孤立自己很简单，但它也有其自身的危险之处。 危险就在于你会变得越来越自我中心 或者会让自己忠于某个符号、某个神像 或者某种教条主义的观念，并将自己全部的能量都投入其中 保持住这些东西，然后在花园或葡萄酒厂里工作。 香槟酒和法国的高级葡萄酒都是由这帮僧侣制作的。（笑声） 而那些僧侣同样也参与了战斗，杀死了人们。 这种事情已经进行了无数个世纪了。 而我们正生活在一个具有惊人破坏性的世界中 一个分裂的世界中，有着各种形式的残忍野蛮，等等。 所以我们要在哪里才能找到和平呢？ 一群人能否和平地生活在一起？ 不管他们是老师、教育者，还是男人女人等等？ 你在寻找和平吗？ 还是说你会带来和平？ 你明白了吗？ 和平只是存在于我们身体之外的， 还是说我们是真的想要和平？ 如果我们将所有那些我们所渴望的、希望的和考虑的东西放在一边 然后去设想什么是「和平」，想要和平，于是便致力于去 进行某种形式的管理，不管它是所谓的精神上的管理还是其他什么管理。 很多人都藏匿于军队之中而销声匿迹了 因为他们在那里并没有什么责任，政府会照顾好你的一切 就像在修道院里一样，然而你们却在工作、行军，准备好去杀戮等等。
11:04 So can one bring about peace within oneself and is it possible, living in this world, knowing what the world is becoming more and more, both scientifically and so-called nationally, can one live, or bring, create peace? You understand my question? Can we wait a few minutes for that? To live in peace implies no act of divisiveness – right? No act of separation, no sense of me first and you second, both in a queue and at home. Is that possible at all? – not only for oneself but living with a group of people. The speaker has been for many, many years, 60 or more years, the speaker has been living for over sixty years with a group of people in India, in America, here, all over the world, part of the world rather. And there, there is always contention, always dissension, opinion against opinion, why shouldn’t I think this way, you think your way, and so on. This process has been going on, not only now, oh, always, perhaps. And one wonders if it is at all possible to create peace. One is using the word ‘create’ in the ordinary sense of the word, not creation – that’s another matter. Can one, in a group of people, create peace, in your house, perhaps, four of you, or two of you, in a family? Can we bring peace about? Or is that impossible? Do you understand my question? Does one really want to live in peace? And if one does, what price do you pay for it? Not in coins, not in bank notes, and so on, but what are you willing or desirous or saying, as we must live in peace, and it is only in peace that one can really flower, what will you do, what will you put aside, what gesture will you make? You understand? It is very easy to superficially say, ‘Yes, I am willing to live in peace. I will join your beastly little community, or your commune, or I will follow a guru and come and live in that community’. That is very easy and rather slack. Forgive that word. Rather indifferent to what is happening to the rest of the world. It is a form of exclusiveness, not one is against elite, but the exclusive way of looking at life – you understand? 所以我们能否带来这种内心的和平，我们是否可能 生活在这个世界上，清楚这个世界正在变得越来越 不管是在科学方面，还是在所谓的国家方面 我们能够去经历体验，或者带来，去“创造”出和平吗？ 你们理解我的问题吗？ 我们能等个几分钟吗？等它过去。 （飞机的噪音） 生活在和平之中意味着没有分裂的行为——对吧？ 没有分离的行动，没有那种我第一，你第二的感觉 不管是在排队伍的时候（笑声）还是在家里的时候。 这究竟可不可能呢？——不只是自己一个人生活的时候 也包括和一群人共同生活的时候。 演讲者曾经和一群人生活了很多年，60年甚至更多（飞机的噪音） 演讲者已经和一群人生活了超过60年 在印度、在美国、在这里，在全世界——更确切地说是全世界的某些地区。 无论在哪里人们总是有着争论和争吵，一种观点意见对抗着 另一种观点意见，为什么我不这样想呢？而你也有你的想法，等等。 这种过程并不只是现在在发生着，噢，它也许是一直在发生着的。 而我们想要知道：究竟有没有可能创造出「和平」。 某人使用“创造”这个词是用来表达它通常的含义 而不是「创造物」——那是另一个问题了。 我们能否在一群人中间，创造出「和平」 在你的家中创造出和平，你们家可能有四个人，或者两个人？ 我们能够带来这种「和平」吗？ 还是说它是不可能的？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 我们真的想要和平地生活吗？ 如果你想要的话，你会为此付出怎样的代价呢？——不是那种以钱币 钞票等等来衡量的代价，而是你会愿意或者渴望 或者说：我们必须要生活在和平之中，只有在那种和平中 我们才能真正开花绽放，那么你会做些什么呢 你会将什么东西放在一边，你又会摆出怎样的姿态？ 你理解了吗？ 表面上说说，“是的，我希望能够和平地生活”，这是很容易的。 “我将会加入你那个超级小社区或你的团体 或者我将会追随一名古鲁，过来生活在那个社区里”。 这是非常容易且相当懈怠的。 请原谅我使用了「懈怠」这个词。 对世界上其他地方所发生的事情漠不关心。 这是一种孤立排外性，不是某人反对精英分子 而是那种孤立排外的看待生活的方式——你理解了吗？
17:22 Now are we willing to give up, put aside our own particular opinions, particular judgements, not that one must not have objections, discussions, stating what one thinks, and if one sees what one thinks is not correct, yield, change. Is all that possible? Or we are all so obstinate – you understand my question? – that we never, under any circumstances, yield, unless we are forced. So we come to a point, if one wants really peace in oneself and in one’s family, or in one’s group of people: to be highly sensitive, not only to one’s own particular desires – that is fairly simple – to one’s own self-centred images, but to be sensitive to nature, to other people’s ideas, other people’s way of looking, their difficulties, the whole process of living together, which requires an enormous sense of yielding, and watching, and observing, and highly... not interpretative, but seeing what the other is: he may be brutal, he may be insensitive, but help him to be sensitive, help him not to be... – you follow? It is a constant sense of movement, not taking a stand at any time. Is that at all possible? Not only in a family, or in a group of people, like in a school – and we are very close to a school here, and we are having a lot of trouble there, too. So this is a great problem which not only we, who are responsible here at the school at Brockwood, but also responsible to ourselves and to our environment, to the way we live. Because peace requires a great deal of intelligence. You can’t just say, ‘I must live peacefully. I must leave the place where there is conflict’, and go somewhere else hoping to find where there is inward – where there is no conflict. Such a place doesn’t exist unless one becomes completely dull, completely insensitive, and doesn’t care a damn what is happening – sorry, you don’t mind? – and so on. 那么现在，我们是否愿意放弃、抛开我们自己特定的观点意见 特定的判断，不是说我们绝不能去反对 讨论、和陈述某人的想法 然后当我们看到某个人的想法并不正确后，我们便放弃它、改变它。 这一切可能吗？ 还是说我们全都是如此的固执——你们理解我的问题了吗？ 那就是我们从来没有在任何环境下让步，除非我们是被迫的。 所以我们讨论到了这一步：如果我们真的想要内心的和平 家中的和平，或者自己所处的那个团体中的和平：那就需要高度的敏感 不仅是对自己特定欲望的敏感——这是相当容易的 对自己自我中心意象的敏感，同样也包括对自然的敏感 对别人的想法，别人的视角，以及别人困难的敏感 这整个生活在一起的过程，它需要那种巨大的 让步、审视和观察的感觉，并且高度地 不是去解释，而是看到对方是什么：他也许是残忍的、他也许是 麻木不仁的，但你要帮助他去变得敏感，帮助他不要变得……你跟上了吗？ 这是一种持续不断的运动感，无论在任何时候都不表示立场。 这一切究竟是否可能呢？ 不只是在一个家庭中，在一群人之中，比如在学校里——我们 我们这里离一所学校很近，而我们在那所学校里也有着很多的麻烦。 所以这是一个大问题，不仅仅是我们这些在座的 布鲁克伍德学校的人负有责任，我们也要对自己负责 对我们的环境，对我们的生活方式负责。 因为和平需要大量的智慧。 你不能只是嘴上说说，“我必须要和平地生活。 我必须要离开有冲突的地方。”然后去某个别的地方 希望找到有着内在的……——没有冲突的地方。 然而这样的地方并不存在，除非一个人变得完全迟钝， 完全麻木不仁，并且完全不关心外面正在发生的狗屁事情 不好意思，你们不介意吧？（笑声）——等等。
21:35 So one has to enquire also what is intelligence. Because peace requires a tremendous intelligence. It isn’t a thing you buy in the market, or in books, or repeating some chants, or some words, or pray for peace – good God! Humanity has prayed for peace from the beginning of days, and there has been no peace in the world, or in oneself. And to have that quality of peace which is unshakeable, which has no shadow of disturbance in it, requires great intelligence. So we must ask ourselves: what is that intelligence? Is that intelligence born of books? Is that intelligence the outcome of complicated, subtle thought? Or is it a projection of an ideal and conforming to that pattern? Thought with its limitation has a certain quality of intelligence, otherwise we couldn’t be sitting here. You need intelligence to travel, to go to the moon. To go to the moon there must have been thousands of people co-operating together to produce that rocket that went up there. That is a form of intelligence. And a scientist, a surgeon, to operate requires great skill, requires some form of intelligence. So is all that born of knowledge, born of experience, accumulated skills with their high discipline, all the result and the product, the movement of thought? And thought being limited, as we talked about it the other days – can thought bring about peace? Which has its own limited intelligence. Right? Or is intelligence nothing whatsoever to do with the activity of thought? You are following all this? Not only verbally, but see the logic of it, the reason. Thought with its limitation has created the most extraordinary things in the modern world – the rapid communication, one does not know if you have been on a battleship or a submarine, the complications of it, the extraordinary energy that has gone to build those things. And the dynamo, motors, and so on. Immense energy, a great deal of thought, knowledge, has gone into all this, and therefore there is that quality of limited intelligence because it is based essentially on thought, or knowledge. And is there an intelligence which is not limited? One must ask these questions if one wants peace. One must ask these essential questions. Not only peace, but a way of living with great depth, with great beauty and it is only that quality of intelligence that can bring this about. 所以我们也必须要询问一下：什么是智慧？ 因为和平需要有巨大的智慧。 智慧并不是一个你可以在市场上买到的东西，或者在书本中找到的东西 或者重复某些圣歌或祷语，或者祈求和平——天哪！ 从最早的时候开始，人类就在祈求和平了 然而到现在，这个世界上或者我们的内心，仍旧没有和平。 而要拥有那种不可动摇的和平的品质 它没有丝毫干扰的阴影，这需要巨大的智慧。 所以我们必须要问问自己：那种智慧是什么呢？ 那种智慧是来自于书本的吗？ 那种智慧是复杂精妙思想的产物吗？ 还是说它只是某个理想的投射，然后再遵从于那个模式？ 带着局限性的思想具有某种程度的智慧 否则的话，我们就不可能坐在这里了。 你们需要智慧才能去旅行，去登上月球。 要登上月球，我们必须要召集数千人 通力合作，制造出火箭，然后才能登月。 这是一种形式的智慧。 而科学家、外科医生，他们工作的时候也需要高超的技术 需要某种形式的智慧。 所以这一切是否都是来自于知识，来自于经验的 那些积累起来的技术和它们高标准的规程 它们全都是思想的结果、产物和运动？ 而思想是有局限的，就如我们前几天所谈到的 思想能够带来和平吗？ 思想有其自身局限性的智慧。 对吧？ 还是说「智慧」和思想的活动没有任何关系？ 你们理解这一切了吗？ 不只是口头上理解，而是要看到它的逻辑，看到它的理性。 局限性的思想已经在现代世界中创造出了最非凡的事物： 快速的通讯，你们可能并不知道 如果你曾经登上过一艘战舰或潜水艇的话，你会发现它是多么的复杂 人们付出了多么非凡的能量来建造这些东西。 还有发电机、发动机等等。 巨大的能量，无数的思考和知识投入到了这些事物中 因此，我们有着这种局限性的智慧 因为它本质上是基于思想或知识的。 那么是否存在一种没有局限的智慧呢？ 如果我们想要和平的话，我们就必须问问自己这些问题。 我们必须要问问这些最基本的问题。 不仅仅是探询「和平」，同样也要探询那种具有惊人的深度和巨大的美的生活方式 而只有那种智慧的品质才能带来这些东西。
27:28 That is, can there be peace without love? Do you understand my question? Can there be peace without a sense of compassion? Can there be compassion if one belongs to a certain sect, religion, group, and so on? You understand my question? If I am attached to my particular conditioning as a Hindu, Muslim, Christian or Buddhist, I can read the books that talk about compassion as being essential. There is no end to making of books – right? Are we all together? Or am I talking? So where do I find – where does one find this intelligence, or come upon it? One cannot possibly cultivate that intelligence. You can cultivate the limited intelligence in the world of science, biology, mathematics, art, and so on; that can be cultivated carefully day after day, till you have that extraordinary skill. But is compassion, with its extraordinary intelligence, is that cultivable? 换句话说，没有「爱」，会有「和平」吗？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 没有慈悲感，可能会有「和平」吗？ 如果一个人属于特定的教派、 宗教、团体等等，他还会有慈悲吗？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 如果我执著于自己作为 印度教徒、穆斯林、基督教徒或佛教徒的特定局限 我可以阅读那些谈论“慈悲是必不可少”的书籍。 然而书会一直没完没了地出——对吧？ 我们都理解它了吗？还是说我正在自言自语？ 所以我在哪里才可以找到——我们在哪里才可以找到这种智慧，或者邂逅它呢？ 你是不可能去培养这种智慧的。 你可以去培养那种局限性的智慧，在科学、生物学的领域 在数学、艺术等等领域去培养它，在这些领域中，你可以日复一日地精心培育这种智慧 直到你掌握了那种非凡的技术为止。 然而，慈悲极其非凡的智慧，它是可以培养的吗？
29:41 Then, as it is not, you cannot cultivate day by day love – right? So what will you do? If you want to live peacefully, deeply, without a single shadow of conflict between each other, what shall we do? Or, not do? 因此，由于它无法培养，所以你也无法日复一日地培养爱——对吧？ 所以，你会怎么做呢？ 如果你们想要和平地、有深度地生活 彼此间没有丝毫冲突的阴影，我们该做些什么呢？ 或者不做些什么呢？
30:30 One has to go really very deeply into the question of desire, will and love. We have talked for half an hour. I am not answering the questions. So perhaps we can do this on Saturday and Sunday because we have a lot to talk about not only that, intelligence, love and the whole problem of pain and sorrow and death and meditation, religion, and all that – we have to talk about. So the speaker had better pick up the questions! 我们必须要非常深入地探究欲望、意志和爱的问题。 我们已经谈了半个小时了。 可我并没有在回答问题。 所以我们也许可以在周六和周日来谈论它们，因为我们还有很多 需要谈论的东西，不仅仅是智慧、爱，还有 关于痛苦、苦难、死亡、冥想、 宗教等等的全部问题，这些我们都会来讨论。 所以演讲者最好还是先来处理下这些问题！
31:29 1st QUESTION: You spoke on Tuesday about goodness. But I am still not quite clear about whether the quality of goodness or evil is outside – is an outside agency, or forces existing in the world, or only a projection of our own thinking. （第一个问题）：你在周二的时候谈论了「好」。 但我仍然不是很清楚「好」或「坏」的品质是否 是外在的……——是一种外在的媒介， 还是一种存在于世界上的力量，或者说它们只是我们自身思想的一种投射？
32:01 You spoke on Tuesday about goodness. But I am still not quite clear about whether the quality of goodness or evil is an outside agency, or force existing in the world, or only a projection of our own thinking. 你在周二的时候谈论了「好」。 但我仍然不是很清楚「好」或「坏」的品质是否 是一种外在的媒介，还是一种存在于世界上的力量， 或者说它们只是我们自身思想的一种投射？
32:30 Right? The question is clear? The questioner, as we understand it, wants to know is goodness and evil something outside, nothing to do with ourselves, but putting ourselves aside, does this goodness exist in the air as it were, and the evil outside? Is it totally independent of our human beings? You understand it? This is what the questioner is asking, if we understand it rightly. 可以了吗？ 清楚这个问题了吗？ 就如我们所理解的，这个提问者想要知道是否「好」和「坏」 是某种外在的、和我们自己毫无关系的东西，抛开“我们”来讲的话 这种「好」是否就像是存在于空气中的事物，而「坏」也是某种外在的事物？ 它们是否完全是独立于我们人类而存在的？ 你理解它了吗？ 如果我们理解没错的话，这就是提问者在问的东西。
33:25 There have been wars – sorry to talk about wars – there have been wars for thousands upon thousands of years. There has been killing of human beings by the million and that killing has created immense sorrow. Is that sorrow outside, separated from us? We have our own sorrow, our own pain, our own anxiety, our own sense of goodness and badness – or if you like to use the word ‘evil’. Apart from that, does evil and goodness exist? Exist. You understand? What do you think? As the questioner asks: is it our projection, our prejudice, our sense of the good and the bad? Or is there evil something separate altogether from human endeavour, human existence? 这个世界一直有着战争——很抱歉又谈到战争 数千年以来一直有着战争。 数百万人惨遭屠戮 而这种屠戮已经带来了巨大的痛苦。 这种苦难是外在的，和我们分离的吗？ 我们有着自己的悲伤、痛苦、焦虑，我们自己对于 「好」和「坏」——如果你喜欢，也可以说是「恶」——的认知。 除了上述这些，「好」与「坏」存在吗？ 它存在。 你们理解了吧？ 你们怎么看呢？ 就如这个提问者所问的：它是我们的投射 我们的偏见，我们对「好」与「坏」的认知吗？ 还是说「坏」 是某种完全脱离于人类努力和人类生活的事物？
35:11 This is a very serious question, this. It is not just a flippant question. 这是一个非常严肃的问题。 而不只是一个轻率的问题。
35:23 People have talked about goodness for years. Aristotle, I believe, talked about it, Plato, and before Aristotle, Plato, there were the ancient Hindus. And before them there was somebody else talking about it, enquiring. The same thing as we are doing now. The evil that man has created, the goodness that man has pursued, the ideals and the conformity and something that exists outside of us. There are people in the world, like the terrorists, like the Imperialists, the great conquerors of the world from Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Hitler, you know all the rest of it. They wanted power, power by hoping to unify Europe. The church, the Catholic Church has hoped to unify all Europe by dogma, rituals, belief, torture and, all the rest of it. Wars. And those exist still, that feeling – right? Or do you object to that? And there have been a great many people who pursued goodness, not, not... people didn’t know them, they were not famous people, they were people who said, ‘I will live a good life’. Not the good life in the modern world, with good meals and good drinks, and all the rest of it, but the good life of austerity, not just putting on a loincloth, or one robe. Austerity is something entirely different. And they have pursued that, and the building of that goodness, though those people have died and gone, must exist. Haven’t you found when you enter a house, a strange house, the atmosphere of it, no? One can feel there have been quarrels in the house, there has been violence, there has been perpetual conflict in that house. One can feel it. So it is outside – right? Do you object to that? So there is goodness and that which is called evil or bad exists in the world apart from our own contribution to it. And one can become highly sensitive to all that and put an end to our own conflicts, divisions, holding on to opinions, and saying ‘My opinion is a fact’ – you know the regular process of holding on to something and battling for it. 人类已经谈论了「好」无数年了。 我相信亚里士多德曾经谈论过它 柏拉图也谈论过它，而在亚里士多德和柏拉图之前，那些古代的印度人也谈论过它。 而在他们之前，还有其他人谈论和探询过它。 我们现在也在做同样的事。 人类制造出了「恶」，人类也在追求「好」 那些理想、那些循规蹈矩，还是说它是某种存在于我们之外的事物。 这个世界上存在着一些人，比如恐怖分子、比如帝国主义者 以及这个世界强大的征服者们，从成吉思汗、 拿破仑到希特勒，你知道的，等等这些。 他们想要权力，希望用这种权力来统一欧洲。 而教会，天主教教会则希望用教义、 宗教仪式、信仰、酷刑等等来统一全欧洲。 还有战争。 而这些东西至今仍然存在着，这种态度——是吧？ 还是说你们会反对这一点？ 然后，还有很多的人，他们在追求「好」， 只是人们并不知道他们，因为他们不是名人 这些人说，“我要过一种「好的」生活。” 不是现代世界中所指的那种“好的生活”：吃好的喝好的， 等等这些 而是那种禁欲苦行的“好生活”——这里的苦行并不只是穿上一条腰布或一件长袍。 禁欲苦行是某种完全不同的东西。 他们追求这些东西，去发展建立这种「好」 尽管这些人已经死去了、离去了，但这种「好」必然还会存在。 你难道没有发现吗？当你走进一个房子 一幢奇怪的房子后，你会感受到房子里的气氛，不会吗？ 你可以感受到房子里曾经有过争吵 曾经有过暴力，曾经有过长期的冲突。 你可以感受到它。 所以，它是外在的东西——对吧？ 你们会反对这一点吗？ 所以存在着「好」以及那种所谓的「恶」或者「坏」 它们存在于这个世界上——无论我们是否助长了它。 而我们可以对这一切变得高度敏感，然后结束掉 我们自身的冲突、分裂、对观点的执著，说什么 “我的观点才是事实”——你知道这个通常的过程： 执著于某个东西，然后为之战斗。
39:58 All this requires a very careful observation, perception of oneself, perception of one’s own activities, behaviour. Either one contributes to goodness or to the so-called that which is bad. 所有这些都需要非常小心仔细的观察 去感知自己，感知自己的行动和举止。 我们要么助长了那种「好」，要么助长了所谓的「坏」。
40:34 This is rather a close question this, near the bone! 这是一个相当私密的问题，私密到了骨头里！
40:41 2nd QUESTION: Do your schools, here, or elsewhere, give the students an understanding of the total human problem, the immensity of human life and its possibilities? （第二个问题）：你的学校——在这里的学校，或其他地方的学校—— 是否能够让学生们了解整个人类的问题， 了解人类生活的巨大无限和它的种种可能性呢？
41:06 Do your schools (underlined) – here or elsewhere, give the students an understanding of the total human problem, the immensity of human life and its possibilities? 你的学校（他强调了“你的”）（笑声）——不管在这里或其他地方——是否能够 让学生们了解整个人类的问题， 了解人类生活的巨大无限和它的种种可能性？
41:39 The question has been put to the speaker, so take a rest! First of all, the speaker helped in various countries, in India there are five schools and there are going to be other schools, and there is one school here at Brockwood, and one in California, at Ojai. They are not the speaker’s schools. They are the schools where not only the speaker and others have helped to bring it about. So it cannot be called your school. I know K’s name is used, but it is not his personal school. And that wouldn’t be correct or true. It is a school – all the schools in different parts of the world have been built or come together, with hundreds of people working for it. You understand? It is not just one person. That would be terrible, you couldn’t do it. There are schools in India that have existed for over sixty years, which we helped to... the speaker helped to bring it about with the help of others. One in the North, near Benares and the other in the South, near Madras, and so on. And there is one here. And one in California. 这个问题是冲着演讲者来的，所以你们可以歇会儿了！（笑声） 首先，演讲者在不同的国家协助建立了几所学校，在印度有 五所学校，我们还会另外再建几所 在这里，在布鲁克伍德也有一所学校，还有一所学校在美国加利福尼亚州的奥哈伊。 但它们并不是演讲者的学校。 这些学校 是演讲者和其他人共同携手建立起来的。 所以它们不能被称之为“你的”学校。 我知道这些学校都挂着“克”的名头，但它们并不是他个人的学校。 这种说法是不正确的、不真实的。 一所学校——全世界各地所有学校 的建立或开启，背后都有着数百人为之工作。 你理解了吗？ 它并不只是一个人的成果。 那将是很可怕的，你一个人是做不了这事儿的。 在印度有几所学校，它们已经建立了超过六十年了 这是我们携手 是演讲者在别人的帮助下与他们携手建立起来的。 一所学校位于印度北部的贝拿勒斯附近 一所学校则位于印度南部的马德拉斯附近，等等。 而在这里也有一所学校。 在加利福尼亚州也有一所。
43:55 Teachers, educators are like you and me. They are human, they have their own personal problems, their own difficulties, and the students come already conditioned by their parents, by their neighbours, by other children, and come to these various schools. And the teachers are also conditioned, unfortunately. And you are asking a question of the total human understanding of life, the immensity of human existence and its vast possibilities. First of all, do the parents want this? Do you understand my question? Generally, the parents want their children to have some kind of degree, technological degree, or humanitarian, human degrees, you know, various degrees, so that they can get a good job, settle down in life and marry, children, carry on. Generally, that is what the parents want. And the children feel certain responsibility towards their parents, so they more or less, especially in the Asiatic world, conform. In India. Do you want to go into all this? 而老师们、教育者们，他们就像你和我一样。 他们也是普通人，他们有着自己个人的问题、自己个人的困难 而那些过来的学生，他们都是深受制约的，被他们的父母、 被他们的邻居、被其他孩子所制约，他们来到了这些学校中。 而不幸的是，老师们同样也是局限的。 而你正在询问一个关于完全了解人类生活的问题 了解人类存在的巨大无限和它广阔的可能性。 首先，父母们想要它吗？ 你们理解我的问题吗？ 通常来说，父母们只是想要他们的孩子获得某种学位 技术上的学位或者人道主义的，人类的学位，你知道的 各种学位，这样他们便可以得到一份好工作， 让生活安定下来，然后结婚，生子，过家庭生活。 通常来说，这就是父母们想要的东西。 而孩子们也会对他们的父母感到负有某种责任 所以他们多多少少会顺从他们——尤其是在亚洲世界。比如在印度。 你们想要深入这些东西吗？
46:19 Parents, the speaker has met them all, not – most of them, California, here – some of them don’t care a damn. Whether they pass examinations or not, so long as the parents are relieved of their children. They send them off to boarding houses – you know all that – in England, too. And they hardly have any relationship with their children, except in the summer holidays, or winter holidays. And the responsibility of the educator becomes immense. And to teach them, to help them to understand the immense... the immensity of human life, the vastness of existence, not only one’s own personal existence but existence: nature, the animals, the whole universe. That requires not only a capable mind, brain, and enquiring into that, and also teaching a particular subject – you understand? Because as society now is, if you are a good engineer, you get a better, good job. So the students also want a good job, they don’t want to become saleswomen or salesmen in a shop. So they want a good job. So their whole concentration, if one can use that world, is to getting a good degree, A level, O level and all the rest of it. And there is the pressure of society which you all have created. And there is the pressure of the parents, and so on. You understand the difficulties of all this? And if you understand it very clearly and deeply, will you join us? No, careful, you can’t just join because you want to join. You have to do something. You have to be a good cook, good gardener, ah, yes, good teacher, good parent. You want this. Don’t leave it to us. The educator needs educating, as the parents need educating, so do the students. So it is a process of living, working, co-operating, feeling together, not battling with opinions. And this requires a great deal of energy, and which parent, and there are many parents, at Brockwood school I believe there are 15 to 19 nationalities. And this school is not what it should be, but it will be. We are working for it. Help us – you understand? I am not asking you for money. That is easy stuff! But join together to create something together. 各地的父母，演讲者全都见过，不是全都见过——见过他们中的大多数 包括加利福尼亚州和这里的父母——他们中的一些人根本就不在乎。 不在乎孩子们是否能通过考试 这些父母只要能甩开自己的孩子就行了。 他们将孩子送去寄宿公寓——你们知道这些事情——在英国也是如此。 他们和自己的孩子几乎没有什么关系 ——除了在暑假或寒假里。 因此教育者的责任就变得很重了。 他们要教育孩子，去帮助他们了解那种巨大无限 那种人类生活的巨大无限，那种存在的广阔性，不只是我们自己 个人的存在，而是全部存在：包括自然、动物和整个宇宙。 这不仅需要一个能干的心灵、大脑，去探询这件事 同样也要去教导特定的科目——你理解了吗？ 因为在如今的社会 如果你是一个优秀的工程师，你就会获得一份比较好的、待遇优厚的工作。 因此学生们也想要一份好工作 他们并不想成为商店里的女推销员或男推销员。 所以他们想要一份好工作。 因此他们全身心「专注」于——如果某人可以使用这个词的话—— 去获得一个好的学位、A等成绩、O等成绩，等等。 然后还有着社会的压力——社会是你们共同创造出来的。 还有着来自父母等等的压力。 你理解这一切的困难之处了吗？ 而如果你非常清楚与深刻地理解了它，你会加入我们吗？ 不，请小心，你不能只是因为想要加入就可以加入我们。 你必须要做一些事情。 你必须要成为一名好的厨师、好的园丁，啊，是的 好的老师、好的父母。 是你想要它。 不要把这些事儿交给我们。 教育者需要接受教育，父母需要接受教育，学生们也需要接受教育。 所以，它是一个生活、工作与合作的过程 一起去感受，不要为观点而争论不休。 而这需要巨大的能量 而父母……在布鲁克伍德学校有很多父母 我相信有来自15-19个国家的父母。 这所学校尚未达到它应有的模样，但它终将会达到的。 我们正在为之而努力工作。 请帮助我们——你们理解吗？ 我并没有在向你们要钱。 捐钱是很容易的事！（笑声） 而是加入我们，一起去创造一些东西。
50:42 3rd QUESTION: Would you enlarge on what you mean by saying that the future is now? Is it that the seeds of the future – seeds underlined – of the future are contained in the present? Or that the future already fully exists on a different time scale? （第三个问题）：你能否详细说一下你所说的 「未来就是现在」是什么意思？ 是不是未来的种子——“种子”加下划线—— 未来的种子就包含在当下之中？ 还是说「未来」已充分地存在于不同的时间维度上了？
51:15 Would you enlarge on what you mean by saying that the future is now? Is it that the seeds – underlined – of the future are contained in the present? Or that the future already fully exists on a different time scale? 你能否详细说一下你所说的「未来就是现在」是什么意思？ 未来的种子——“种子”加下划线——是否就包含在当下之中？ 还是说「未来」已充分地存在于不同的时间维度上了？
51:48 We certainly vary our questions, don’t we! This is a very complicated, like all human problems, question. Apart from scientific fiction and the theories which the scientists have about time, as a series of movements, and so on, apart from the demand that the future be comfortable, safe and happy and all the rest of it, 我们的问题无疑是千变万化的，不是吗！ 这是一个非常复杂的问题——就像所有其他人类问题一样。 除了科幻小说的描述，以及科学家们关于时间的理论之外 ——他们认为时间是一系列的运动，等等 除了那种希望“未来是舒适的、 安全的、幸福的等等”的诉求之外，什么是「时间」呢？
52:40 what is time? Can we go into this together? Together. Not just I speak, the speaker says something and you agree and throw it out. This requires really very serious enquiry. What is time? You can see time as a movement from point to point – right? To go from here to your house, to your home, there is a distance to be covered, which will take time. That’s obvious. And also time is the whole movement of the past – right? – in which is implied all the traditions, accumulated traditions handed down from one generation to another – their knowledge, their books, how to play the violin, and so on, the whole movement of this enormous past is there, of which we are – right? We are the past. The past being memories; you are the whole movement of memory now. Right? That’s a fact. So you are a bundle of memories, whether you like it or not, that is a fact. Without those memories, pleasant, unpleasant, remarkable, satisfying, fulfilling, all those memories are in the present. And without those memories you would not exist. You may exist as a vegetable – no, probably trees have their own way of responding, we won’t go into that. So you are – we are, each one of us, memories. Which is, the whole process of accumulation of knowledge, responses, reactions, judgements, condemnation, acceptance, and so on, this whole process which has brought about not only biologically, subjectively, is what we are now. We are after forty, fifty thousand years, all those centuries, that vast sense of time, is now. Because you are that. That is clear, isn’t it? And that is the future if there is no break. That’s simple, surely. 我们能够一起来探究下它吗？ 一起来。而不只是我说 不是演讲者说一些东西，你表示同意，然后听过把它扔到一边。 这需要非常认真严肃的探询。 什么是「时间」？ 你可以看到：时间是一种“点到点”的运动——对吧？ 从这里出发去你的房子那里，去你的家里 我们需要走一段距离的路才行，而这就需要花费「时间」。 这是显而易见的。 而「时间」同样也是整个过去的运动——对吧？ 在其中包含了所有的传统，那些积累起来的传统 从一代人传到下一代人 ——他们的知识、他们的书本，如何演奏小提琴，等等 这种巨大过去的整个运动就在那里，而我们就是这种运动——对吧？ 我们就是「过去」。 过去就是记忆，你就是记忆在当下的全部运动。 对吧？ 这是一个事实。 所以你就是一堆记忆——无论你喜欢与否——这是事实。 没有这些记忆——无论是快乐的、不快乐的、非凡的、使人满意的、 令人满足的……——所有这些记忆都是在当下的。 没有这些记忆，你将不复存在。 你也许会变成一个植物人——不对 即使树木也可能会有自己的反应，我们就不探讨这些了。 所以你是——我们是……我们每个人都是记忆。 记忆就是整个积累知识、回应、 反应、判断、谴责、接受等等的过程， 这整个过程已经造就了 我们如今生物学上的模样和内心主观上的模样。 在经过了四五万年，经过了无数个世纪 经历了这种巨大的时间感后，我们成为了如今的样子。 因为你就是它。 这是很清楚的，不是吗？ 而它也是未来——如果其中没有间断的话。 毫无疑问，这是很简单的道理。
56:54 A very simple example: tribalism has existed from the beginning of time. I belong to that tribe. It still exists in Africa and which exists in every country, glorified as nationalism. It is still tribalism. Right? And that tribalism is dividing people, holding on to one’s beliefs and all the rest of it. So that is the whole accumulation of a group, or a tribe, or a nation, a community, is the past. Right? And if you consider after fifty thousand years of human existence on this marvellous earth we are about the same – right? Psychologically, subjectively, inwardly, we are still very, very, very primitive. You may pick up a telephone and talk to the other end of the world, but what you say is still rather primitive. Either it is business, or cussing somebody, or talking to somebody and saying, ‘Darling, how are you?’ It is the same process that has been going on much more difficult in past centuries, now it can be done in a second. So the past is now, is what we are, and what we are after 40,000 years – you understand? How extraordinarily: time has not changed us – right? Be honest to oneself. We have made so-called progress technologically. Immense progress, incredible, but inwardly we are somewhat, very, very little, on the frills perhaps, at the core we are barbarous, primitive – right? Killing each other, all the rest of it. 举个很简单的例子：从最早的时候开始，人类就有部落主义了。 我属于那个部落。 这种部落主义至今仍存在于非洲 而它也存在于每一个国家，只不过美其名为“国家主义”。 但“国家主义”仍然是部落主义。 对吧？ 而这种部落主义正在分裂人类 执著于我们的信仰，等等。 所以，团体、部落、 国家或社会的全部的积累——它就是「过去」。 对吧？ 如果你思考下的话：人类已经在这个不可思议的地球上 生活了有五万年了，然而我们却还是和以前差不多——对吧？ 在心理上、主观上和内心 我们仍然是非常非常的原始。 你也许可以拿起电话然后和大洋彼岸的人聊天 但你谈的东西仍然是相当原始的。（笑声） 不是谈生意，就是咒骂某人， 或者和对方闲聊，说，“亲爱的，最近好吗？” 这里发生的事情和以前是一样的 只不过在过去的无数个世纪里，做这些事要困难得多，而现在，你可以一秒钟就实现它。 所以「过去」就是当下，就是我们的真实模样 就是四万年以后我们如今的样子——你理解了吗？ 时间竟然没能改变我们，这是多么的奇怪——是吧？ 我们要对自己诚实。 我们已经创造出了所谓的“科技进步”。 让人难以置信的惊人进步，可是内在而言，我们只是在边边角角上 稍微有了一点点变化，然而在核心部分，我们仍旧是野蛮的、原始的——对吗？ 彼此杀戮，等等这些。
1:00:06 So time – please, listen – time has not changed us. Right? Do we see this? So evolution has not changed the psyche. On the contrary, it is making it more and more strong. The psyche being the whole accumulation of memories, racial, national, tribal, religious divisions. The ancient Sumerians, the ancient Hindus – they never called them Hindus but it doesn’t matter – and the Egyptians and from those 40-50,000 years, we are still, after evolving, we are still primitive. Time is going on. Time is a movement. So the future is what we are now – right? We will have wars, now we know how to kill millions of people at one drop, we hate each other, we compete with each other, we are angry with each other, seeking sexual fulfilment, or different forms of fulfilment. They have done this – you understand? – and we are still at it. And the future is still what we are now. So the future is now, not the seeds of it, the actuality of it. So is it possible to radically change all that? Not allowing time at all – you understand? You understand my question? Time has not changed us, evolution has not changed us, different organisations have not changed us, different religions have not changed us, suffering has not changed us. And we said time will help us to change. I am coming to that, sirs. Give me a little time! A little time! 所以时间——请听好——时间并未改变我们。 对吧？ 我们看到这一点了吗？ 所以“进化”并没能改变人类的心灵。 相反，它愈发强化了那种心灵。 人类的心灵就是所有积累起来的记忆： 那些种族的、国家的、部落的记忆，以及宗教的划分。 古代苏美尔人，古代的印度人——他们从来不自称为“印度人” 但这没有关系——以及埃及人，在经过了四五万年以后 在经过了进化以后，我们依然……我们仍然很原始。 时间不断流逝。 时间是一种运动。 所以「未来」就是我们现在的样子——对吧？ 我们仍将会有战争，而现在我们已经知道如何扔一颗炸弹炸死数百万人了 我们彼此厌恶、彼此竞争，对彼此感到愤怒 寻求性满足或者不同形式的满足感。 人类曾经做了这些事——你理解了吗？——而我们现在仍在做这样的事。 而未来，我们也仍将会是现在的模样。 所以未来就是「现在」，「现在」并不是未来的种子，「现在」就是真实的未来。 所以我们是否可能彻底地改变这一切呢？ 不允许任何「时间」的介入——你理解了吗？ 你理解我的问题了吗？ 时间并没能改变我们，「进化」并没能改变我们 各种不同的组织没能改变我们 不同的宗教没能改变我们，苦难也没能改变我们。 而我们却说「时间」可以帮助我们去改变。 我正要来讲这个，先生们。 给我一点时间！（笑声） 一点点时间！
1:03:27 So we are saying, if one looks to time, that is tomorrow, to bring about a change, then it is futile hope – right? That’s clear. Therefore you have to enquire: what is change? Is change in terms of the future? Is change something from that which is to something else? Please, go into it, don’t... I am this, I will be that. I will be that means future, brought about by desire, which is the essence of will, desire is the essence of will. So you say, ‘I will do something later’, ‘I will change gradually’ – right? – ‘I hope to become noble’, ‘I will get rid of my opinions’ – you follow? All that implies that you are looking to time to change. So we are asking what is change, in which there is no time? Do you understand, sirs? The moment I say to myself, ‘I will change’ you have already admitted the future. Right? ‘I will become’, ‘I will change’, ‘I will flower’, ‘I will love’ – all that admits time, and time has not changed us. Right? Because we have evolved for 50,000 years and that vast space and experience has no deep effect on us at all. 所以我们在说：如果我们指望「时间」——也就是「明天」—— 带来改变的话，这将是一种徒劳的希望——对吗？ 这是很清楚的事。 因此你必须要去探询：什么是「改变」？ 「改变」是就未来而言的吗？ 「改变」是从真实现状转变为别的东西吗？ 请深入探究它，不要 我是这样的，我将会变成那样的。 “我将会变成那样的”——这就意味着「未来」，它是由欲望 ——也就是意志的本质——所带来的，欲望就是意志的本质。 所以你会说，“我之后会去做它”，“我将会逐渐地改变”——对吧？ “我希望自己能变得高尚”，“我将会放下我的观点意见”——你跟上了吗？ 而这一切都意味着你正在指望着「时间」来改变。 所以我们正在问：什么是「改变」——在这种改变中并不存在时间。 你们理解了吗，先生们？ 当我对自己说，“我将会改变” 你就已经承认了「未来」。 对吧？ “我将会变成……”，“我将会改变”，“我将会兴旺发达”，“我将会去爱” 所有这一切都承认了「时间」，然而时间并没有改变我们——对吧？ 因为我们已经进化了有五万年了 然而这巨大的空间与经验却并没有对我们产生任何深远的影响。
1:06:03 So is there a totally – please, understand this – totally ending of something which has been, now? You understand what I’m saying? Wait! Suppose I am greedy – you know what that means, of course everybody does: greedy, envious – perhaps envy is a better word. I am envious. I can rationalise it, say it is natural, it is cultural, it is part of commercial process of gaining and losing – production, and all that stuff. So I can say, ‘I am greedy’, and man has been greedy from the beginning of time – right? And time has not changed me at all. Because through greed we have created this appalling society, both commercially and through envy, which is comparison, we have destroyed each other. This is a fact. And can that envy end instantly, not ‘I will, gradually’ – you understand my question? Have I made the question clear? Is there an ending – ending – and not a continuity? A continuity implies time – right? Oh, come on, sirs. 所以是否存在着一种彻底的——请你理解这一点 彻底地结束掉某个过去的事物，在此刻就结束掉它。 你明白我所说的东西吗？ 请稍等一下！ 假如我是贪婪的——你知道「贪婪」是什么意思，毫无疑问每个人都会 贪婪和忌妒——也许用「嫉妒」这个词更好。 我很嫉妒别人。 我可以将其合理化，说嫉妒是自然的，它是一种文化，它是 推陈出新的商业化过程——商业化生产——的一部分，等等这些。 所以我可以说，“我就是贪婪的” 人类从诞生伊始就一直是贪婪的——对吧？ 而「时间」根本就没有改变我。 因为我们已经经由贪婪而创造出了这个骇人的社会 不管是在商业上……而经由嫉妒 ——也就是「比较」——我们已经摧毁了彼此。 这是一个事实。 那么这种嫉妒可以立即结束吗 而不是说“我将会逐渐地……”——你明白我的问题了吗？ 我是否把问题讲清楚了？ 是否可以有一个结束——是结束，而不是一种延续？ 延续就意味着时间——对吧？ 噢，加油啊，先生们。 所以我们是否能够完全不让时间进入改变的领域呢？
1:08:18 So can one not allow time at all to enter into the world of change? That change means ending. Ending not knowing what will happen because what might happen is still hope, time, and so on. Is it possible to end envy instantly, completely so that it never exists anymore? Yes, sir! That’s why it is very important to understand the nature of time. Time is a movement, like thought. And time is necessary to learn a language, to acquire a skill, time is necessary to go to the moon, time is necessary to put a warship together, or a dynamo, or a motor. But psychologically, subjectively, if we think in terms of time and change, there will be never change. See what is happening. You have had United Nations at one time – no, League of Nations, now you have United Nations, another blow up will be another kind of another United Nations. But the same process – you understand? Reorganising the same misery in different forms. 这种改变意味着结束。 结束，但并不知道将会发生什么 因为可能发生的事情仍旧是希望、时间等等。 我们是否可能立即地、完全地结束掉嫉妒 使得它永远不复存在？ 就是这样，先生！ 所以了解时间的本质是非常重要的。 「时间」是一种运动，就像思想一样。 我们必须要用时间来学习一门语言，掌握某种技能 我们需要时间，才能登上月球 我们也需要时间才能组装建造军舰、或者发电机，或者发动机。 但心理上、主观上 如果我们从时间的角度思考然后去改变，那么我们将永远不会有什么改变。 看看发生的事情吧。 你们曾有过「联合国」——不对，应该是「国际联盟」 而现在你们有了「联合国」 再来一次大爆炸的话，你们又会建立另一种……另一个「联合国」。 但这是同样的过程——你理解了吗？ 只不过以不同的方式重组了同样的苦难。
1:10:34 So is it possible not to have tomorrow? To look at life, to live with that life which has no tomorrow at all. 所以我们是否可能不要有「明天」？ 去观察生活，去过那种完全没有「明天」的生活。
1:11:14 May I go on to the next question? You see, that implies enormous things. You are not really understanding this thing: time. A drum is tuned carefully, and because it is tuned, because inwardly, inside it is empty, and when you strike on it it gives the right note. And to have that inward quality of nothingness, but highly sensitive, then you have something extraordinary. The speaker is not enticing you into something. He is not persuading you, rewarding. There is no reward or punishment. 我可以继续下一个问题吗？ 你瞧这其中蕴含着非常重大的内容。 你们其实并没有了解这个东西：时间。 一面鼓被加以精心调校，因为它被调好了音，因为它内在 它的内在是空无的，所以当你敲打它时，它就会发出正确的音符了。 所以我们要拥有那种内在空无的品质，同时具有高度的敏感性 由此你便会拥有某种非凡的事物了。 演讲者并没有在引诱你去做什么事。 他并没有在说服你，给予你奖励。 这里并不存在什么奖励或惩罚。
1:12:44 4th QUESTION: Why do you not find value in prayer? （第四个问题）：为什么你没有看到祈祷的价值？
1:12:50 Why do you not find value in prayer? Do you find value in prayer? Would you kindly... would you? I don’t know why you accuse me of not having any value in prayer. 为什么你没有看到祈祷的价值？ 你发现祈祷中的价值了吗？ 你是否可以……你可以吗？ 我不知道为什么你要指责我没有获得祈祷的价值。
1:13:18 Why do we pray? You know that there are a whole group of community or monks who are perpetually praying. One group finishes praying, another group takes it up. And we also pray when we are in difficulties. When there is a great crisis in our life we want to pray, or say, ‘Somebody help me, please’. You know that joke of a man hanging onto a cliff? He says, ‘Please, God, save me’, and God says, ‘Have faith and jump!’ And the man who is hanging on to the cliff, he says, ‘Isn’t there somebody above that still?’ Sorry! 为什么我们要祈祷？ 你知道有那么一个群体 或一群僧侣，他们永远在祈祷着。 一群人结束了祈祷，另一群人再接上。 当我们身处困境中时，我们也会祈祷。 当我们在生活中遭遇重大危机时，我们会想要祈祷，或者说 “谁来帮帮我，拜托了”。 你们知道那个“挂在悬崖边的人”的笑话吧？ 他在那里说，“求求你，上帝，救救我吧”，上帝对他说，“要有信仰，跳下去吧！”（笑声） 然后那个挂在悬崖峭壁上的人说道 “在我上面不是还有人吗？”（笑声）不好意思！
1:14:45 Why do we pray at all? This has been going on, praying, in the Christian world, in the Islamic world, and in a different way in the Buddhist and Hindu world, praying. To whom are you praying? To an outside agency? Outside agency being God, or the Lord. The Lord according to different countries and cultures and traditions. The Almighty of different concepts? To whom are we praying? And why do we pray? Does prayer answer our difficulties? In some cases when you are praying, not merely using certain words, chanting, and so on, but praying silently without word – you understand what I’m saying? Perhaps you might have an answer because your whole brain has become quiet. And in that quietness, in that stillness of the brain without the movement of thought, you find an answer. And then you say, ‘I must pray more and more’. Which is, you have achieved, you have gathered some experience, and that experience has brought certain results, and you like those results and so you keep this going! Then it becomes a habit and you have lost everything. Why do we pray at all? We are not condemning or saying it is all right, but we are questioning the whole thing, with certain scepticism, with certain quality of brain that says: give me the reason, not just emotional reactions. And one is in great difficulties. There is great crisis, pain, sorrow – insoluble. And at that moment we look to somebody to help. And the somebody is not my husband, wife, children, and my neighbour or somebody across the street, because I know them too well, they are also in the same position as myself. And so I turn to some outside agency. Outside agency means not something that is organised by thought: God, Christ, and in India it is another deity, and so on. I pray on my knees because I can’t solve this problem at all. I cannot resolve my sorrow, my pain, my loneliness, and so I gradually begin to depend on something externally. Either it is the doctor, psychiatrist or God. They are all the same, the moment I want to be helped. One may call saintly prayer, the other, he says, ‘Well, that’s mundane’, you pay ten pounds and you get – you know what happens. I don’t have to go into all that. So they are both the same, all the same. So why do I do this? Because I want to be helped. I am not able to solve the problem. Or I think I am not able to solve the problem. It is very painful, devastating, it disturbs my whole life, and I want someone to calm my being, to help me to overcome this. And this has been done for forty, fifty and more thousand years. It was the thunder, lightening before, then it was the worship of trees, then it is now the worship of symbols and images. Not much difference. 我们究竟为什么要祈祷呢？ 人类一直在进行祈祷，在基督教世界里，在伊斯兰教的世界里 在佛教和印度教的世界里，人们也在以不同的方式而祈祷着。 你在向谁祈祷呢？ 是向某个外在的媒介吗？ 外在的媒介就是上帝或者说是「主」。 根据不同的国家、文化和传统，这个「主」也会有所不同。 各种不同概念的「全能者」？ 我们在向谁祈祷呢？ 为什么我们要祈祷呢？ 祈祷是否回应了我们的困难呢？ 在某些情况下，当你祈祷的时候，不仅仅是使用某些词语，去唱诵等等 而是安静地祈祷而没有话语，你理解我在说的东西吗？ 那时你也许就会得到一个答案了，因为你的整个大脑都安静下来了。 在这种大脑的安静与寂静中， 其中没有思想的运动，然后你就会找到答案了。 而那时你会说，“我必须要做更多的祈祷”。 也就是说，你成功了，你已经收集积累了一些经验， 而这些经验带来了某种效果， 你喜欢这些效果，所以你会一直继续祈祷！ 于是这种祈祷变成了一个习惯，而你则失去了一切。 我们究竟为什么要祈祷？ 我们并没有在谴责它，或者说它是正确的 我们正在质疑这整件事情 带着某种怀疑的态度，某种大脑的品质， 这个大脑在说：给我理性的结果，而不只是情感的反应。 我们处于巨大的困境中。 面临着巨大的危机、痛苦、苦难——各种难以解决的问题。 而在这样的时刻，我们会指望别人来帮助我们。 这里的“别人”并不是我的丈夫、妻子、孩子和邻居 或者街对面的某个人，因为我太了解他们了 我知道他们也处于和我一样的困境中。 于是我转向了某个外在的媒介。 外在媒介的意思是，他并不是某种思想组织起来的东西： 他是上帝、基督，在印度则是其他的神明等等。 我跪下祈祷，因为我根本无法解决这个问题。 我无法解决我悲伤、痛苦和孤独的问题， 因此我逐渐开始依赖于某个外在的事物。 要么是医生、精神科医师，要么是上帝。 在我想要得到帮助的时候，他们都是一样的东西。 某个人也许会进行圣洁的祈祷，而另一个人，他会说，“啊，这是世俗的举动” 你支付了10英镑，然后你可以得到……你知道发生的事情。 我并不需要详细阐述它们。 所以它们两者是一样的，它们全都是一样的。 那么为什么我要这么做呢？ 因为我想要得到帮助。 我无法解决那个问题。 或者我认为我无法解决那个问题。 这个问题非常令人痛苦，极具破坏性，它扰乱了我的整个生活 我想要有人能让我平静下来，帮助我渡过难关。 而这样的事情，人类已经做了有四万年、五万年甚至更多时间了。 以前人们崇拜的是雷电，然后人们开始崇拜树木， 而现在人们崇拜象征符号和神像。 这并没有什么太大差别。
1:21:09 So I have to ask: why do I want help? Is it not possible – it may sound rather cruel, but it is not: the person who is always asking for help becomes weaker and weaker and weaker, duller. Then he becomes – he then becomes utterly dependent on something, either on drugs, or on people, or on ideals, ultimately his concept of God. Whether it is a drug or God it is still along the same lines because you want to be helped. 所以我必须要问下：为什么我想要帮助？ 难道我就不可能——这听起来也许相当残酷，但其实并不残酷，那就是 一个总是在寻求帮助的人会变得越来越虚弱，越来越愚钝。 然后他会变得……他会变得彻底依赖于外物， 依赖于药物，或者依赖于他人、理想，最后就是依赖于他对上帝的概念。 但不管它是药物还是上帝，都是一样的过程 因为你想要得到帮助。
1:22:06 Now we are asking ourselves: is it possible for me to solve my own problems without a single aid from another? Which requires a great deal of stamina, energy, to go and say, ‘Now this problem of envy; what is envy – it is always comparison, and a little more than comparison’. The craving, the want. And can that end without time? Then I don’t have to pray. Then the person who is like that is totally free from all contamination of thought. So it requires the understanding of fear, to be able to stand completely on your feet. And that is now slowly being denied. Drugs, cocaine, heroin and all that is spreading in the world. We are bored with life and we want substitutions for life. And so prayer is your own desire to achieve something which will be most gratifying. An easy way to live without any understanding. It is much more complicated than merely the statements of the speaker. You see, we are all so petty, small-minded. And if we could step out of that – not tomorrow, now – then life is something that is endless, immense. 而现在，我们正在询问自己：我是否可能 解决自己的问题，而无需任何来自他人的帮助？ 这需要大量的耐力、能量，去探究它，然后说 “现在我要来处理「嫉妒」的问题了，什么是嫉妒 嫉妒常常是一种比较，它要比「比较」还更多一点”。 那种渴望，那种欲求。 而它可以结束而不要有「时间」的介入吗？ 那时我就不需要去祈祷了。 那时，一个这样的人就是完全自由的 他摆脱掉了所有思想的污染。 所以它需要我们去了解恐惧， 能够完全地独立自主。 然而这件事如今正在慢慢地被否定。 毒品、可卡因、海洛因，所有这些东西正在全世界蔓延流行。 我们已经厌烦了生活，我们想要为其找到一种替代品。 因此，祈祷是你自身 想要达到某种令你无比满足事物的欲望。 一种毫无了解的轻松的生活方式。 祈祷远远要比演讲者所说的更加复杂。 你瞧，我们都是如此的卑微和心胸狭隘。 而如果我们可以走出来的话——不是明天走出来，而是现在就走出来 那么生活就会成为某种无限且巨大的事物。
1:25:17 It is now ten to one. Ah, here is a good question! 现在已经十二点五十分了。 啊，这是一个好问题！
1:25:35 5th QUESTION: When you are no longer physically with us – tant pis! – what are those of us who understand your message, even if only intellectually, to do? Do we continue working on ourselves and forget the rest of the world? Or try to spread your teachings as we see it? （第五个问题）：当你肉体上不再与我们在一起了（笑声）——算我倒霉！ 我们中那些理解你讯息的人 ——即使只是智力上理解——我们该怎么做？ 我们要继续努力专注于自己，而忘掉世界上其他的人吗？ 还是说要努力传播我们所理解的你的教导？
1:26:06 When you are no longer physically with us – why add ‘physically’? – among us, what are those of us who understand your message, even if only intellectually, to do? Do we continue working on ourselves and forget the rest of the world? Or try to spread your teachings as we see it? Need I answer this question? 当你肉体上不再与我们在一起了——为什么要加上“肉体上”？（笑声） 那么我们中那些理解你讯息的人 ——即使只是智力上理解——我们该怎么做？ 我们要继续努力专注于自己，而忘掉世界上其他的人吗？ 还是说应该努力去传播我们所理解的你的教导？（笑声） 需要我来回答这个问题吗？（笑声）
1:26:54 Sir, it is your message, not mine. It is your book, not mine. If the way you live is the message, if you live in the way we are talking about, timelessly, that’s – your very living is the light. That doesn’t depend on anybody. K – that’s one fact in life – we are all going to die. That is an absolute, irrevocable fact. And the future is now, death is now. You understand? That is, the ending is now, not in ten years time, or fifty years time. And if one lives that way, your very living is the message. It is not K’s message, it is yours. Then your life is spreading. The very living, the way you live, you then spread that which you are living. Not spread that which someone else has said. You understand? So very, very simple, this. Beauty is yours, not somebody else’s. We had better stop now. 先生，这是你的讯息，而不是我的。 这是你的书卷，而不是我的。 如果你的生活方式就是讯息，如果你按照 我们所说的那种方式生活，超越时间。那么你的生活本身就是「光芒」。 它不会依赖于任何人。 不会依赖克。这是生命中的一个事实：那就是我们都将会死去。 这是一个绝对的、不可改变的事实。 而未来就是现在，死亡就是现在。 你们理解了吗？ 换句话说，「结束」就在此刻，而不是在未来十年或五十年里。 如果你能这样子生活，那么你的生活本身就会成为一种讯息。 它不是克的讯息，而是你的讯息。 那时你的生活就是在传播它。 你的生活本身，你的生活方式，那时你就是在传播你所活过的东西。 而不是在传播其他人说过的东西。 你理解了吗？ 所以这是非常非常简单的。 「美」是属于你的，而不是别人的。 我们最好还是到此为止吧。
1:29:02 May I get up? 我可以站起来了吗？