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BR84T4 - 死亡的本质、深度与美
第四次公开演讲
布鲁克伍德公园，英国
1984年9月2日



1:11 Krishnamurti: Next year we will have to have a bigger tent! 克里希那穆提：明年我们会整个大一点的帐篷！
1:32 One hopes that you have had a pleasant week: instructive, learning, and exploring into oneself the immense depth and width of life. We are going to ask several fundamental questions this morning. Perhaps some of you have not asked these questions, and it may sound rather extravagant or nothing to do with our daily life or that it is merely theoretical. The speaker does not in any way indulge in theories, ideologies, or any sense of – have any sense of beliefs, dogmas and all that business. 某人希望你们已经度过了愉快的一周： 受到了启发， 学到了东西， 也探索了自己， 探索了生命那巨大的深度与广度。 而今天早上，我们将会来问几个根本性的问题。 也许你们中的一些人并没有问过这些问题。 它听起来也许相当不切实际， 或者和我们的日常生活没有什么关系， 或者它仅仅是理论上的。 演讲者并没有以任何方式沉湎于理论、 意识形态， 或者任何 也没有任何信仰、教条等等这些东西的感觉。
3:03 First of all, what is it to be honest? Really, deeply honest. We are honest to some – that is conformity, which we call honesty – to some fictitious belief, faith or ideologies. But honesty seems to be in one where there is total integrity. That integrity is not mediocrity. Mediocrity – the meaning of that word, according to the dictionary, is one who goes half way up the hill and never goes to the top of the hill. Perhaps we go to the top of the hill in science, in all the technological world, but we never go to the very top of it, top of our own enquiry, of our own understanding, and find out for ourselves the depth and the beauty of our own lives. Where there is integrity, that is, a wholeness, a sense of not completeness – but a sense of non-fragmented way of life, out of that comes great honesty, unyielding, not easily persuaded or dissuaded, but living a daily life in which is this holistic way of conducting oneself – morality and all that business. We are going to talk something over this morning, together, as we have talked about several other factors of life, like conflict, and whether conflict could ever end in our daily life. And yesterday morning we also talked about fear, sorrow, and the nature and the depth and the strength of love, compassion and intelligence. We ought to talk over this morning together what is death, what is immortality and what is continuity. In the understanding of all that, we have to really delve very deeply into the nature of time and thought, which we have been doing from the beginning of these talks. 首先要问的是：什么是「真诚」（honest）？ 真正的、深刻的真诚。 我们对某些东西很真诚 ——也就是那种遵从，我们将其称为「真诚」—— 对某种虚构的信仰、信念或意识形态非常真诚。 然而在某人看来，真诚只有在有了「完整」的时候才会存在。 那种「完整」并不是「平庸」。 平庸 ——根据词典，这个词的意思是： 一个只爬到半山腰， 而从来不爬上山顶的人。 也许我们已经在科学世界， 在所有的技术领域中爬到了顶端， 但我们却从未达到山的顶部， 达到我们的探询、 我们自身了解的顶端， 然后亲自去发现 我们自己生活的深度与美丽。 当有了「完整」， 也就是那种整体感，那种感觉 并非完全圆满， 而是一种「非碎片化」的生活方式的感觉， 从这之中就会产生出巨大的「真诚」， 这种「真诚」是不屈不挠的， 不会轻易被说服或劝阻， 去过这样的日常生活： 那就是以整体性的方式来做出行动 ——无论是在道德上，还是其他方面等等。 今天早上我们将会来一起探讨一些东西， 由于我们已经谈论了 生活中的若干问题，比如冲突， 以及冲突能否在我们的日常生活中结束。 而昨天早上，我们也谈论了恐惧、苦难， 以及爱、慈悲与智慧的本质、 深度和力量。 而今天早上，我们应该一起来讨论一下： 什么是「死亡」， 什么是「不朽」，以及什么是「延续」。 而在了解这一切的过程中，我们必须非常深入地去探究 时间和思想的本质， 我们从这些演讲的一开始就在做这件事了。
7:05 Time, we said, is the past, modifying itself in the present, and the future is the present having its roots in the past, continuing, which is the future. Right? So the future is now. That is, we have evolved, according to the biologists, scientists, we have been on this earth as human beings, evolving for 40-50,000 years. During that long interval of time, during that duration, we have accumulated a great deal of information, knowledge, experience, and technologically we have advanced in the most extraordinary way, but inwardly, psychologically, subjectively, we are very primitive, barbarous, and we have not fundamentally changed; we are violent, brutal, competitive, terribly aggressive, and so on. And unless one deeply understands, not merely theoretically, but the nature of time, when and what is time. 我们说了：时间， 它就是过去，「过去」在当下修改了自己， 而未来就是当下的延续 ——而当下是根植于过去之中的。 当下的延续就是未来。 对吧？ 所以未来就是现在。 换句话说，我们已经进化了 ——根据生物学家和科学家的说法， 我们作为人类已经在这个地球上 进化了有四五万年了。 在这漫长的时间间隔中，在这漫长的岁月里， 我们积累了大量的信息、知识和经验， 我们在科技领域取得了无比惊人的进步， 然而我们内心、心理上、主观上， 我们依然非常的原始和野蛮， 我们并没有从根本上改变， 我们依然是暴力的、残忍的、好竞争的、 极具侵略性的，等等。 而除非我们深刻地了解了 ——不仅仅是理论上了解， 而是了解了时间的本质：时间是指“什么时候”，时间是什么。
9:17 Is time a continuity? I am this, I will be. When is time? You understand? Is there time in the very act of doing? Is there time in the very action of life? You plant a seed in the ground and it grows, flowers, bears fruit and dies, and while that seed is growing, moving, living, there is no concept of time. It is only we human beings have the concept of time. And when we are doing something completely, holistically, without any sense of fragmented outlook or behaviour, the doing, in that act of doing there is no time. Haven’t you noticed all this? As you are sitting here and listening, unfortunately, or fortunately, to the speaker, as you are listening very attentively, which I hope one is doing – this attention has no time. Right? It is only time comes into being when you say, ‘What is he talking about? I don’t quite understand’, or I make a tremendous effort to understand – then time comes into being. But when there is actual listening, seeing very clearly, then there is no time at all. And understanding this, we are going to enquire together – the speaker means together, all of us together – into the nature and the depth and the beauty of death. 时间是一种延续吗？ 我现在是这样的，但我将会变成那样的。 时间是指“什么时候”？ 你理解了吗？ 在那个行为本身之中存在时间吗？ 在生活的行动中是否存在时间？ 你在地里播下了一粒种子， 种子会成长、开花、结果，然后死去， 当那颗种子在成长、活动和生长的时候， 它是没有时间的概念的。 只有我们人类才会有时间的概念。 当我们完全地、整体地去做某些事情时， 没有任何碎片化的视角或行为， 那时我们的行动，在我们所做的事情中，就是没有「时间」的。 你难道没有注意到这一切吗？ 当你们坐在这里， 幸运地或不幸地在聆听演讲者的话语， 当你们非常专心地聆听时 ——我希望你们正在专心聆听—— 这种专心中是没有时间的。 对吧？ 「时间」只有在什么时候才会出现： 当你说，“他正在说些什么？ 我不是很理解”， 或者我会做出巨大的努力去理解它 ——那时「时间」就会出现了。 然而当有了真正的聆听， 非常清楚地看到时， 那时就完全不会有时间了。 而在明白了这点之后，我们将要一起来探询 ——演讲者的意思是“一起”， 我们所有人一起—— 来探询死亡的本质、深度、和它的「美」。
12:25 When one uses the word beauty, what do we mean by that word? What is beauty to you? Because we are saying beauty is truth, like love is truth. What is beauty? A beautiful person, a beautiful painting, a great mountain that is immovable, full of snow, valleys, shadows, and the deep blue depth of a vast valley. The great paintings, the ancient sculptures, and when we look at them we say how marvellously beautiful they are. Is beauty something in the beholder, in the observer, in the seer? Or is beauty when the observer is not? Do you understand? Are we meeting each other? Have you all had enough? Enough is enough? Because in our life, daily life, there is so little beauty. We want to have a beautiful body, beautiful face, and you do all kinds of things to bring that beauty about, exercise, so-called yoga! Can we go into that word a little bit? 当我们使用「美」这个词时， 我们是什么意思呢？ 对你来说「美」是什么？ 因为我们在说：「美」是真理——就像「爱」是真理一样。 什么是「美」？ 一个美丽的人，一幅美丽的画， 一座巍然不动的大山， 白雪皑皑，那些山谷，那些阴影， 那巨大山谷深处的碧蓝色彩。 那些伟大的绘画作品，那些古代的雕塑， 当我们欣赏它们时， 我们会说它们有着多么惊人的美啊。 「美」是某种观看者、 观察者、欣赏者眼中的事物吗？ 还是说当观察者不在时，「美」才会存在？ 你们理解了吗？ 我们是否彼此理解了？ 你们是不是都觉得够了？该适可而止了？ 因为在我们的生活中，日常生活中，并没有什么「美」。 我们想要拥有一个健美的身体，一张美丽的脸蛋， 而你们会想方设法地带来这种美丽， 通过运动锻炼，所谓的“瑜伽”！ 我们可以稍微来探讨一下“瑜伽”吗？
15:01 In the ancient days, yoga was taught only to very, very few, and in doing yoga, other factors entered into it – a meditation. In the ancient days, I am not talking now about what is considered yoga. And it was an act of dedication to find out what is truth, what is the way of living according to that truth, and so on. But now yoga has become a commercialised affair, and if you can’t do anything better, you are going to teach yoga. Those people who are experts at it are accumulating money – you know, the whole commercial process. So yoga is something that demands a great deal of attention – in the old days – a great deal of self-observation, self-recollectedness, and so on. Not just having a beautiful body. 在古时候，瑜伽只能传授给极少数人， 而在练习瑜伽的过程中， 其他因素也会介入进来——比如冥想。 这是指古代的瑜伽， 我并不是在谈论如今人们所认为的瑜伽。 那时的瑜伽是一种自我奉献的行为：去寻找什么是真理， 以及依据那种真理的生活方式，等等。 然而现在，瑜伽已经被商业化了， 如果你其他什么事情都做不好，你可以去教瑜伽。 那些精通瑜伽的人，他们正在利用它积聚钱财 ——你知道的，这整个商业化的过程。 所以瑜伽是某种需要巨大专注力的事物 ——在古时候—— 它需要大量的自我观察， 自我冷静，等等。 不只是拥有一个健美的身体。
16:48 So, what is beauty, we are asking. When you compare two great paintings, the comparison between two painters, or that poem or the other poem, this book or that, what is actually going on in one’s brain? You are comparing, you are judging, you are evaluating. Some have said Keats is the greatest poet who ever lived, or if he had lived longer, he would have been far greater than Shakespeare, and so on. And when you put aside all the paintings in the world in museums and in your own house, and so on, and when you see the great mountains with their snow and against a blue sky in the morning light, there is a certain quality of silence, certain quality of breathless adoration, and the perception of that immovable – the deep valleys, the lakes, and the rivers, and the forests – – when you see all that, the very greatness of it drives away our petty little life, may be for a minute or for a few seconds: when the self is not, beauty is. Do we understand? Are we together in this? When you look at all those mountains, rivers, and the beautiful architecture, or read a poem, some part of the ancient literature, the Old Testament, or the Upanishads, and so on, to observe all that without thought, without ‘the me’ interfering with your perception, then there is that quality of immense beauty, which is not put together by thought. And to come upon that beauty is to enquire whether the self, ‘the me’, the persona, all the characteristic tendencies and all the troubles, pain and anxieties and loneliness, can all that be put aside, not make that which is great, make you put everything aside, then that greatness becomes merely a toy. But if one can put all that aside, the very nature of the self, the psyche, then there is that immense beauty which is really timeless existence. Now let’s go on to something else. 所以，我们在问：什么是「美」？ 当你比较两幅伟大的绘画时， 比较两位画家时， 或者拿这首诗与另一首诗比较， 这本书和那本书比较时， 你的大脑中真正在发生的是什么？ 你正在比较、判断和评估。 有人说济慈（Keats：英国诗人）是人类有史以来最伟大的诗人， 或者如果他能活更久一点的话， 他将远远要比莎士比亚更加伟大，等等。 而当你将这个世界上、 博物馆里和你自己家里等等所有的绘画都扔在一边， 当你看到覆盖着白雪的大山 映衬着蓝天，沐浴在晨曦的光芒中， 你会感受到某种宁静的品质， 某种令人屏息的崇拜之情， 当你感知到了那巍然不动的事物 ——那深邃的山谷，那湖水，那河流，那森林时—— 当你看到这一切后， 它的伟大会驱散掉我们卑微渺小的生活， 也许只有一分钟，或者只有短短几秒钟： 当自我不在时，「美」就会存在。 我们理解了吗？ 我们都理解这一点了吗？ 当你欣赏所有那些山川、河流， 美丽的建筑， 或者阅读一首诗歌， 古代文献中的某些部分时 ——比如《旧约全书》或者《奥义书》等等， 去观察所有这些东西，而没有思想的介入， 没有那个“我”来干扰你的感知， 那时就会有那种巨大的「美」的品质， 这种「美」并不是思想所拼凑起来的。 而要邂逅那种美， 就是要去探询是否自我，那个“我”，那个人格面具， 所有个人的特征倾向，所有的麻烦、 痛苦、焦虑和孤独， 这一切能够被放到一边去吗？ 不是让那个伟大的事物 来促使你去放下一切事物， 这样的话，那个伟大事物就仅仅成为了一个玩具。 如果我们可以将所有这些放在一边 ——那种自我的本质，那种心智， 那么就会有那种巨大的「美」了 ——这种美就是超越时间的存在。 现在让我们来谈点别的东西吧。
21:34 Which is: what is death? We are going to enquire together what is death. And also we are going to talk over together what is it that continues? And the continuity is a movement of time – right? Are you following? So we must ask also: is there anything permanent, in us, in the world, outside of us, is there anything imperishable that cannot be destroyed, that is endlessly permanent? Man has asked this question from the most ancient of times because he sees round him everything in a flux, everything changing, gaining, losing, being destroyed and put together again. And we also see ourselves changing, not only biologically, but psychologically – we are all moving a little bit, bit by bit, moving, changing, not fundamentally changing, but a little. So seeing all that, this constant change, dying and being reborn, one asks: is there anything permanent, lasting, and what is that thing that lasts? Is it a continuity of what we are? You understand? Does this all interest you? Don’t just say ‘Yes’, that’s no fun! But if you are really interested in this because it has to do with one’s life, one’s daily life, and is there anything in one’s daily life that’s permanent? There is always at the end of that so-called continuity, there is death. One has lived 90 years, or 50 years or 10 years, and during those 80, 90 years, there has been a long continuity of memory, continuity of activity, labour, striving, aspiring, hoping to make oneself more excellent, in some skill or other, or inwardly, psychologically, to find something that is not always changing. We see all this – an ancient oak dies – everything seems to come to an end, dies, and observing all this, one asks oneself, as I hope you are asking yourself, is there some permanent something that will last, that will have its roots in some place, that will always grow, will always be immense, permanent? Right? Don’t you ask all these questions? Or I am asking for you? And so we are asking: what is continuity? What is it that continues in our daily life? Is it not memory, a series of associations and a continuity exists also between when one thought is silent for the moment, another thought arises. There is an interval between those two thoughts, and in that interval we observe a sense of timeless existence for a second, but that interval between two thoughts is still thought, in absence. Thought then is absent between those two intervals but is still two thoughts. We will go into all this. Is it too complicated? Probably it is. 也就是：什么是「死亡」？ 我们将要一起来探询一下：什么是「死亡」。 我们也要一起来讨论下： 是什么东西在延续？ 延续是一种时间的运动——对吧？ 你们理解了吗？ 所以我们也必须要问： 是否存在任何永恒的事物？ 在我们心中，在这个世界上，在我们之外， 是否存在任何不朽之物， 某种不会被摧毁的、 无限永久的事物？ 人类从最古老的时代开始就在问这个问题了， 因为他看到自己周围的一切事物都在不断变化中， 每一样事物都在改变， 得到，失去，被摧毁，然后再次合并组合起来。 我们看到自己也在改变中， 不仅仅是生物学上的改变，心理上也在改变 ——我们全都在一点一点地运动着，一点点地移动着、改变着， 不是那种根本性的改变，而是一点点的改变。 所以在看到了这一切后， 看到了这种持续不断的改变、 死亡和再生以后， 我们会问： 是否存在任何永恒的、持久的事物， 而那个在延续的事物又是什么呢？ 它是我们实际模样的延续吗？ 你们理解了吗？ 你们对这一切有兴趣吗？ 不要只是说“有兴趣”，这就没意思了！ 然而如果你真的对它感兴趣的话， 因为它和你的生活， 和你的日常生活是息息相关的， 那么在我们的日常生活中，是否存在任何永恒的事物呢？ 所谓的延续的事物，到了最后总是会结束， 它会死亡。 某人活了九十年、五十年或者十年， 而在这八九十年的岁月里， 会有一段漫长的记忆的延续， 活动的延续， 辛苦劳作、努力奋斗、抱负渴望， 希望让自己变得更加出色， 精通这样或那样的技术， 或者在内心或心理上， 找到某种并非总是在改变的事物。 我们看到了所有这一切 ——古老的橡树也会死去—— 一切万物似乎都会结束、死亡， 在看到了所有这些以后，某人问自己， 我希望你也在问你自己： 是否存在某种永久的，能够一直持续的， 某种扎根于某处， 总是在成长， 总是巨大且永久的事物？ 对吧？你们难道不会问所有这些问题吗？ 还是说是我在问你们？ 所以我们在问：什么是「延续」？ 在我们的日常生活中，那个延续的东西是什么呢？ 它不就是记忆吗？ 一系列的联系联想， 而「延续」同样也存在于 一个念头暂时平息下来， 到另一个念头升起之间。 在这两个念头之间会有一个间隔， 在这个间隔之中， 我们在那一刻感受到了一种超越时间的存在， 然而两个念头之间的「间隔」， 它仍旧是念头思想——只是暂时缺席了。 那时，在那两个「间隔」之间，念头缺席了， 但那两个念头仍旧存在着。 我们将会来探究这一切。 它是不是太复杂了？ 可能是吧。
28:44 Is continuity immortality, because it is one of the things man has sought – immortality, that which is beyond death. And the ancient books, like the Upanishads, the Vedas, and the Hebrew literature, the ancient, and the Bible, Shakespeare, Keats – they are in a way immortal, they are going to last when you and I pop off, they will be there – is that immortality? The name, all the things associated with that name – so what is immortal? Mortality, we know what that means: man dying, human beings coming to an end. And human beings have asked this question: is there immortality, a state in which there is no death at all, not a continuity but – because continuity implies time, and where there is time there is death – where there is immortality, if there is such a thing, then there is no death at all, there is no ending or beginning. Are you going into all this? I’ll go into it, if you are interested, we’ll take the journey, if you are not, it doesn’t matter. I hope you are comfortably seated. 「延续」是「不朽」吗？ 因为「不朽」是人类一直在寻找的东西之一， 那种超越死亡的事物。 那些古老的圣书，比如《奥义书》、《吠陀经》， 希伯来人的著作——古代的著作，以及《圣经》， 莎士比亚、济慈（英国诗人）——他们在某种程度上可以说是「不朽」的， 当你和我突然挂掉以后，他们仍将会延续下去， 他们将会一直在那里——但这是「不朽」吗？ 那个名字， 以及所有和那个名字相关的事物？ 所以，什么是「不朽」呢？ 我们都知道「终有一死」的意思： 人都会死，人类的生命终会结束。 而人类已经问过了这个问题： 是否存在「不朽」 ——一种在其中完全没有死亡的状态， 它不是「延续」， 而是 ——因为延续就意味着「时间」， 当有了「时间」，就会有死亡， 而当有了「不朽」——如果存在这种东西的话—— 那就根本不会有死亡了，那时就没有结束或开始了。 你们在探究这一切吗？ 我将会来探究它， 如果你们感兴趣的话，我们将会踏上旅程。 如果你没兴趣的话，这也没有关系。 我希望你们能舒服地坐着。
31:26 What is death, what does it mean to die? And that is an absolute certainty that we are all going to die, and what does that mean? One has continued from childhood till the moment of death, continued with one’s thoughts, with one’s ideas or new set of ideas, thoughts, trouble, pain, anxiety, loneliness, and all the travail of life, that is what we call continuity. And in that process time is a factor. And when we die, all the Asiatic world believes, at least some of them, majority of them, including India, and so on – this continuity will continue after death – which is called rebirth, reincarnation. That’s a very comforting idea! What you sow you reap. If you are not good in this life, then in next life you pay for it, or you pay for it now. Right? Cause and effect. Causation separate, as though it was separate from the effect. We are saying causation has in it inherently effect. It is not two separate things. I wonder if you get all this? This is not philosophy, it is not some kind of exotic nonsense. You can see one’s own life: if you do something ugly, it has its own reward, or its own pain. If you do something correctly, without the self, then that brings about its own goodness. So continuity is a form of causation – effect, and the effect becomes the cause, and so it is a chain. And we are asking, what is death? Biologically, when the brain has not sufficient blood, breath, and so on, it decays very rapidly, and that is called death, physical death. Either this is brought about through some kind of disease, natural old age or some accident. We acknowledge that because that is inevitable, but we say, I have gathered all this experience, all my life I’ve worked, all my life I have tried to do this and that, and what is the good of it all if I come to an end of all that? Don’t you ask these questions? So we have to ask: what is it to end? to end something in which there is no continuity. You understand? To end. All right. 什么是死亡？ 死亡意味着什么？ 有一点是确定无疑的： 那就是我们都将会死去， 而「死亡」是什么意思呢？ 从小孩开始直到死去那一刻，我们都在延续着， 延续着自己的思想、 自己的观点，或者一套新的理念， 各种思想、麻烦、痛苦、焦虑、孤独， 以及所有生活的艰难困苦， 这就是我们所谓的「延续」。 而在这个过程中存在着「时间」这个要素。 当我们死去后， 所有亚洲世界的人们都相信——至少其中有一些人， 绝大多数的人都相信，包括印度等等国家的人 ——他们相信这种延续在死后仍会持续下去—— 它被称为「再生」或「轮回转世」。 这是一个非常令人安慰的想法！ 种瓜得瓜，种豆得豆。 如果你在这辈子中没有做个好人， 下辈子你就要为此付出代价， 或者你现在就会付出代价。对吧？ 因果关系。 原因是分开的， 就好像它是和结果分开的一样。 而我们在说：原因，其内在就蕴含了结果。 它们并不是两个分离的东西。 我不知道你们是否领会这些了？ 这并不是哲学， 它并不是某种来自异国的胡扯。 你可以看看自己的生活： 如果你做了某些丑陋之事， 它便会带来报应，或者其自身的痛苦。 而如果你做了某些正确的事——其中没有自私自利， 那它就会带来它自身的好处。 所以「延续」就是一种因果关系。 而那个结果也会变成原因， 所以这是一种连锁循环。 而我们在问：什么是死亡？ 从生物学的角度来说， 当大脑缺乏足够的血液、呼吸，等等时， 它就会非常迅速地衰退， 而这就被称为「死亡」，肉体的死亡。 这种死亡要么是因为某种疾病 或自然衰老所导致的，要么是因为某个事故。 我们都承认这一点， 因为这是不可避免的， 但我们说：我已经收集积累起了所有这些经验， 我的一生都在工作， 我的一生都在努力做这个做那个， 所以如果这一切都要结束了， 那它们又有什么好处呢？ 你们难道没有问过这些问题吗？ 所以我们必须要问：什么是「结束」？ 去结束掉某个东西， 在这种结束中没有延续。 你们明白了吗？ 结束掉它。 好吧。
36:46 One is attached. There is no question about it. Attached to an idea, to a book, to a saying, to your money, to your wife, or to some ideal, and so on. One is deeply attached. We are not saying it is right or wrong. One is attached. Death comes along and says, sorry! – cuts that attachment, and we want that attachment to continue, and without it, when there is freedom from attachment, we feel a bit lost. So we are frightened of death because it may end everything that you have. Following? And one asks: what have you? At the end of 90 years, I am asking this of myself, and you must be asking of yourself, what is it that you have? A house, a bank account if you are lucky enough or unlucky enough, a wife, a husband, the pleasure of sex and all the conflict of one’s life? Actually, what has one in your life? What have you? And if one was very, very honest, you need to have a house, you need to have a shelter, food, clothes, that is natural, normal, otherwise what have you? A series of memories – right? A bundle of memories and nothing else. In that bundle of memories there are all aspirations, wanting, not wanting, seeking God – you know all that – or not seeking God or saying, ‘There is only this’ – that is, pleasure, money, power. The mundane activities of one’s life – that is all one has, and death comes along and says, ‘You can’t carry it with you, it all has to come to an end’. End of that, end of all your memories, all your experiences, all the things one has travelled through life to accumulate. When a scientist, a great scientist, not employed by the government, but free of governments, those scientists, they have accumulated an extraordinary amount of knowledge, skill, great penetration into matter, questioning what is matter, what is energy, and so on, they too die, like us, and at the end of their life, what have they? And the tyrannical, totalitarian dictators – what is going on in Russia, all the dictatorships in the world – what have they? You understand? We want what we have, which is memories, to continue – right? And when those memories come to an end, which is the fact of life which is death, and knowing all that, one is frightened. You want to know what happens after, and you want to know what happens afterwards according to your already existing knowledge. Right? You understand? You follow this? You are adding more knowledge by asking what is there when one dies. All that one wants is more knowledge, more certainty of knowledge. And knowledge is limited. You understand? Because knowledge is based on experience which is limited, and knowledge is memory, and so thought is limited. So we keep going round in that circle. And is there an end to all this? And that is death. And so one asks: is it possible to live with death, not commit suicide and all that silly stuff, but to live with something, live with an absolute fact. The absolute fact is that one is going to die, and that death means the ending of knowledge, of memories. So can one live with death and not keep the two apart? You understand? You follow all this? What does it mean to live with death? What does it mean to own nothing? You may have money, a wife, children, but to hold and wanting that which you have held to go on, and death means you hold nothing. 我们都有执著。这是毋庸置疑的。 我们执著于某个观念、某本书、某种教诲， 执著于你的钱财、你的妻子，或某个理想，等等。 我们有着很深的执著。 我们并没有说这是对的还是错的。 一个人很执著。 然后死亡过来了，对他说：很抱歉！ 然后切断了那种执著， 然而，我们却想要那种执著延续下去， 没有了这种执著， 当我们脱离了这种执著后， 我们便会感到有点迷失。 所以我们害怕死亡， 因为它也许会结束掉你所拥有的一切事物。 理解了吗？ 而某人要问：你又拥有什么呢？ 在经过了九十年以后， 我正在问自己这个问题， 而你也必须要问问你自己， 你拥有的是什么呢？ 一幢房子， 一笔银行存款——如果你足够幸运，或足够不幸的话， 一个妻子，一个丈夫， 性的快感， 以及所有生活中的冲突？ 在你的一生中，你实际上有什么呢？你拥有什么呢？ 如果你非常非常坦诚的话， 你会承认自己需要有一幢房子， 你需要有住所、食物和衣服， 这是自然的、正常的， 但除此之外，你拥有什么呢？ 一连串的记忆——对吧？ 一大堆的记忆，仅此而已。 在那堆记忆中， 有着所有的那些渴望抱负，想要什么，不想要什么， 寻找上帝——你们知道所有这些—— 或者不寻找上帝， 或者说，“人生就只是这些东西” ——即快乐、金钱、权力。 那些我们生活中的世俗活动——这就是我们拥有的东西， 然后死亡过来了，对你说， “你不能带走它们，这一切都结束了”。 结束掉它， 结束掉你所有的记忆、 所有的经验， 所有你终其一生积累起来的东西。 当一位科学家，一位伟大的科学家 ——不是被政府所雇佣的，而是脱离了政府的科学家， 这些科学家已经积累起了 数量惊人的知识与技术， 他们深入洞察了物质， 探询了什么是物质，什么是能量，等等， 但他们也会像我们一样死去， 而在他们生命结束的时候，他们拥有什么呢？ 那些残暴的、极权主义的独裁者 ——比如俄罗斯正在发生的那些事情， 所有这个世界上的独裁专政——这些人拥有什么呢？ 你们理解了吗？ 我们想要让自己拥有的事物 ——也就是那些记忆—— 能够延续下去。对吧？ 而当这些记忆结束时， 这是生命中的现实——即死亡， 当我们知道这一切后，我们会感到害怕。 你想要知道死后会发生什么， 而你想要知道的死后所发生的事情， 它是根据你已有的知识而推断出来的。 对吗？ 你理解了吗？ 你跟上它了吗？ 通过询问「当一个人死后还会剩下什么」， 你正在增加更多的知识。 你所想要的仅仅是更多的知识， 更确定的知识。 然而知识是有局限的。 你理解了吗？ 因为知识是基于经验的，而经验是局限的， 知识就是记忆， 所以思想也是局限的。 所以我们就一直在那里兜圈子。 而这一切是否可能结束呢？ 这才是「死亡」。 因此某人要问： 是否可能与「死亡」共同生活 ——不是让你去自杀，所有这类愚蠢之事， 而是和某个事物共同生活， 和那个绝对确定的事实一起生活。 那个绝对确定的事实就是：人终有一死， 而这种死亡就意味着结束掉 你的知识和记忆。 所以我们能否与死亡共同生活， 而不要将两者分开呢？ 你们理解了吗？你们跟上这一切了吗？ 「与死亡共同生活」意味着什么？ 「一无所有」又意味着什么呢？ 你也许拥有金钱、妻子和孩子， 你会执著于他们， 想要你所执著的事物延续下去， 而死亡意味着你将两手空空。
45:18 Can one live a life in this world, living and death together? That means living and dying every day. Oh, come on, sirs. So it means never, never becoming something, becoming something psychologically, which is so-called psychological evolution. In that there is time, a continuity and the memory held in the brain – of course! And living with death means that which has been accumulated, gathered psychologically, ending everything every day, not at the end of the day, but at the beginning and in the middle and all the time. You understand what that means? Never having roots in any place, never having a sense of ownership, possession, attachment, so the brain becomes extraordinarily alive, free, and therefore no fear. 我们能否在这个世界上过这样的生活： 让生活和死亡共存？ 那意味着每天既在生活也在死去。 噢，来吧，先生们。 所以它意味着 永远永远不要去变成任何人， 在心理上去成为某人 ——也就是所谓的“心理进化”。 在那之中就存在着时间、 延续，以及大脑所持有的记忆， 这是显而易见的！ 而“与死亡共同生活”意味着 那些我们心理上积累收集起来的事物， 每天都要结束掉这一切， 不是在一天的最后时刻结束它， 而是在一开始，在中间时段，在所有的时间里结束掉它。 你知道这意味着什么吗？ 它意味着永远不扎根于任何地方， 永远没有那种拥有感， 占有感和执著感， 由此大脑就会变得极度活跃与自由， 所以它便不再有恐惧了。
47:36 We said we would also talk about meditation: religion, meditation and what is creation. Are you interested in all this? 我们说过，我们也会来谈论一下冥想， 谈论一下宗教、冥想，以及什么是「创造」。 你们对这些东西有兴趣吗？
47:53 What is religion? What is the religious mind? What is the mind? – we must differentiate. The brain is the storehouse of all memories. It is the seat of all reaction and action, response, both neurologically, psychologically, subjectively – it’s contained as consciousness in the brain. Right? It doesn’t matter. I’ll go on. Just play with me, will you? And so the brain is limited, though it has got infinite capacity, because in the technological world, look what they are doing. And psychologically, subjectively, we are very limited. That’s part of the brain. The mind is something entirely different. The mind is outside the brain. This requires a great deal of enquiry, but perhaps we cannot go on with that because our time is limited. 什么是宗教？ 什么是「宗教心灵」？ 什么是「心灵」？——我们必须要区分一下它。 大脑是储存所有记忆的“仓库”。 它是安放所有反应、行动和回应的基座 ——神经上的、 心理上的、主观上的行动反应， 它们作为「意识」包含在大脑中。对吧？ 懂不懂都没关系了。我会继续讲下去。 请跟我一起玩这个游戏，可以吗？ 因此大脑是有限的， 尽管大脑已经得到了无限的能力， 你可以在科技世界中看到大脑都做了些什么事。 然而心理上、主观上，我们仍旧非常局限。 这种局限也是大脑的一部分。 而「心灵」则是某种截然不同的事物。 心灵是在大脑之外的。 这需要我们进行大量的探询， 但我们可能没法继续讲下去了， 因为我们的时间是有限的。
49:52 Like love is not within the brain. It is outside. If it is within the brain, it is a process of thought, memory, recollection, remembrances, pleasure, pain, and all that, which is, the brain contains all consciousness. Our consciousness is its content. There is no consciousness as we know it if the content is not. Right? The content is our pain, loneliness, beliefs, faith, hopes, aspirations, anxieties – all that is our consciousness. And that is contained within the skull. So love is not that, surely. Love is not a battleground, love is not a reaction, or a remembrance, and when there is reaction, remembrance, and all that, it is still in the brain, and love is, if that, love is still part of the brain, that’s reaction and all that, then it is not, obviously, love. 就像「爱」并不存在于大脑中一样。 「爱」是头脑之外的东西。 如果「爱」存在于大脑中的话， 那它就会成为一个思想和记忆的过程， 回忆、回想、 快乐、痛苦，等等这些， 也就是说，大脑包含了所有的意识。 我们的意识就是其内容。 如果意识的内容不在了， 就不会存在那种我们所知道的“意识”了。 对吧？ 意识的内容就是我们的痛苦、孤独、 信仰、信念、希望、渴望、焦虑 ——所有这些就是我们的意识。 而这一切就包含在头骨里。 而很显然，「爱」并不是这些东西。 「爱」并不是一个战场， 爱并不是一种反应或回忆， 当有了反应、回忆，等等这些东西， 那时的「爱」就仍然是落入于头脑中的， 如果这样的话，那爱就成了……爱就仍然是大脑的一部分， 也就是反应等等这些东西， 那么它很显然就不是「爱」了。
51:42 So we are going to investigate together what is religion. Why has man spent such energy, great enquiry, suffered, fasted, tortured himself to find truth, to find that which is timeless? Every religion has done this. That is, every religion says: to find that which is immense, immeasurable, you must do certain things – deny the flesh, control, discipline, give your life, dedicate your life to that, and only then you will find it. They put this very simple statement more complicatedly, but that is what religions have said. And in the Christian world, as in the Hindu and the Buddhist world, and the Islamic world, a figure, a symbol, in the mysteries of a not too light a place, cathedrals and churches, with all the rituals, accepting, obeying – all that is called religion, agreed? Is that religion? Or religion is something entirely different. Now we have intermediaries, the priest – between that highest and the so-called the lowest – he is the interpreter, like the psychiatrist, and the priest has played a great part in history, from the Egyptians and before the Egyptians, the Sumerians, and so on, the priests were the learned people, and all that. And they have established certain laws, rules, and if you are sceptical – and I hope you are – doubting, questioning, never accepting anything psychologically – except the policeman, and the tax laws, otherwise to question, doubt, never psychologically obey without going into it, not belonging to any sect, to any guru, to any organised religion as Christianity, Islam, or not so organised, rather disorderly Hinduism, and so on. If you put all that aside, if you can, because we are heavily conditioned by propaganda of 2,000 years, or heavy propaganda has made your brain programmed from 3,000 to 5,000 years as in India and so on. If you can put all that aside, as one must if one wants to find that which is nameless, then what is religion? What is the quality of a mind or brain that has totally set aside all man’s endeavour to find that, all his systems, methods, his systems of meditation, breathing correctly, cross-legged – you know, all that. Those are all meaningless. To calm the brain, breathe properly, quietly, sit in silence in a room or under a tree – that will not bring about that which is immense. So what is the quality of a mind, of a brain, that has set aside all this? It is untrammelled; it has not any bondage; it is free, completely free. That word ‘freedom’ also has its root, etymologically – love. Freedom means love also, not sexual love – love. 所以我们将要一起来探究一下：什么是宗教？ 为什么人类花费了如此多的能量， 如此大量的探询、痛苦、斋戒 和自我折磨，要去发现真理， 去发现那个超越时间的事物？ 每一个宗教都做了这样的事。 那就是，每个宗教都在说： 要找到那个巨大的、不可估量的事物， 你就必须要去做某些事情 ——否定肉体， 去控制自己，恪守戒律， 付出你的生命，奉献你的一生去追求它， 只有那样你才能找到它。 他们都表达了这个非常简单的意思 ——只不过是以更复杂难懂的方式。 但这就是各个宗教所说的东西。 而在基督教世界里， 就像在印度教、佛教和伊斯兰教的世界里一样， 他们会有一个神像、一个符号， 在一个不太明亮的地方举行秘密的宗教仪式， 比如在大教堂或小教堂里， 所有那些典礼仪式， 接受，服从 ——所有这一切被称为“宗教”， 你们同意吗？ 这是宗教吗？ 还是说，宗教是某种完全不同的东西。 如今，我们已经有了「中介人」——也就是那些神职人员， 他们夹在那个「至高者」和所谓的「卑微者」之间， 他就是那个诠释者，就像精神病医生一样， 神职人员在历史上扮演了重要的角色， 从古埃及人就开始了， 而在古埃及人之前，还有苏美尔人，等等， 神职人员是一群有学问的人，等等这些。 他们已经制定了特定的法律和规定， 而如果你对此持怀疑态度的话 ——我希望你们能去怀疑—— 去质疑，去询问， 永远不要在心理上接受任何事物 ——除了接受警察， 以及税法， 除此以外，你都要去质问、去怀疑， 除非你探究过它了，否则永远不要在心理上遵从它， 不要属于任何教派、任何古鲁、 任何组织化的宗教，比如基督教、伊斯兰教， 或者不是高度组织化的、相当散乱无序的印度教，等等。 如果你将这一切都放在一边——如果你可以的话—— 因为两千年以来的宣传洗脑已经让我们深受制约了， 或者说三千到五千年以来的大量的宣传 ——就像在印度等国家一样——已经让你的大脑程序化了。 如果你可以将所有这些放到一边 ——因为要找到那个不可名状的事物，你就必须这么做—— 那么什么是宗教？ 一个彻底抛开所有人类的努力， 然后去发现它的心灵或大脑， 它具有怎样的品质呢？ 他所有的系统，方法，他的冥想体系， 正确地呼吸，盘腿而坐——你知道的，所有这一切。 这些全都是毫无意义的。 让大脑平静下来，然后正确地、安静地呼吸， 寂静无声地坐在一个房间里或树下 ——这些都无法带来那巨大无限的事物。 所以一个将所有这些都抛开的心灵或大脑， 它会具有怎样的品质呢？ 它是不受限制的， 它是无拘无束的， 它是自由自在的，完全的自由。 “自由”这个词也有其词源学上的词根——它的词根就是「爱」。 自由也意味着「爱」， 不是性爱——而是「爱」。
58:24 So, is that possible when all the world is shouting, when all the world is being entertained by religions... Is it possible to live in this world, daily, with such total freedom from all tradition, from all knowledge, except where knowledge is necessary? We are asking a really very, very difficult question, because knowledge prevents true perception. From that arises: what is meditation? – not how to meditate. That word ‘meditation’ and all the implications with that word, apart from contemplation of Christians, and so on, that meditation has been brought over by the gurus into this country, who are spreading all over America, and so on. They have their systems, their practices, their disciplines, and the guru gets a lot of money out of it, and all that business goes on. There are Hindu meditations, Tibetan meditations, schools of meditation – right? Zen – the whole lot of them. What are they offering? What is meditation? Not how to meditate, or what system to follow. That is too immature, too childish. But if you ask deeply what is it to meditate, why should one meditate? The word ‘meditation’ also, etymologically and in Sanskrit, means measure, not only to ponder over, to think over, which is part of meditation, but also it means understand measurement. Measurement means comparison. Now I am saying, the speaker is saying: where there is comparison there is no meditation. You understand? Oh, come on! Are we following a little bit with each other? We are always measuring: the better, the more, the less and the greater. This whole movement of measurement, which is comparison, can that completely end, both psychologically and outwardly, – that is part of meditation. That is what, when you are enquiring into what is meditation, it means not only think, ponder over, look and observe, but also it means complete ending of all comparison – short, tall, broad, wide, beautiful, not beautiful – all those are a pattern of the self. Where there is measurement there is self, right? So is it possible to live a daily life without any form of comparison? Then you will see for yourself the extraordinary quality of the brain. Then the brain itself has its own movement; apart from its own movement, it has another quality, then it is extraordinarily stable, firm, doesn’t mean it doesn’t yield, but it yields in firmness, in strength. And meditation also means the freedom from the network of words and thought. Right? So the brain is not entangled with words, with patterns, with systems, with measurement. Then there is absolute silence. And that silence is necessary. Silence has its own sound. Have you ever listened to a tree? This is not some crazy question. Have you ever listened to a tree, an old tree when the wind and the breezes have come to an end, and the tree is utterly silent, no leaf is fluttering, and then you listen to the sound of the tree. We were asked that question by a scientist. He accepted that, so you better accept it too, because you love scientists, people who accumulate knowledge. But to find out the sound in silence and where there is this complete, absolute, not relative silence. The relative silence can be brought about through thought, through will, saying, I must be silent. That is not silence at all. There is silence only when there is freedom from all the things that man has accumulated. In that silence there is an enormous sense of vastness and immensity, you don’t ask any questions any more. It is. 所以，当全世界都在喧哗叫嚷， 当全世界都在被宗教所娱乐时，我们是否可能 是否可能每天带着这种彻底的自由 而生活在这个世界上， 摆脱所有的传统和所有的知识 ——除了在必须用到知识的场合下？ 我们正在问一个非常非常困难的问题， 因为知识会阻碍真正的感知。 从这之中就产生了一个问题：什么是「冥想」？ 不是如何去冥想。 “冥想”这个词， 及其所有的暗示含义， 除了基督教徒的那种沉思默祷，等等， 这种“冥想”是由那些古鲁将其带入这个国家的， 他们正在蔓延遍布整个美国，等等。 他们有着自己的体系、练习、戒律， 而那个古鲁则从中大肆敛财， 所有这类生意一直在进行着。 我们有印度教的冥想、西藏人的冥想、 以及学院派的冥想——是吧？ 禅宗冥想——所有各种各样的冥想。 这些“冥想”给予了我们什么呢？ 什么是「冥想」？ 不是如何去冥想，或者要遵循什么样的体系。 那就太不成熟，太幼稚了。 但如果你深入地问一下： 什么是「冥想」？为什么我们要去冥想？ “冥想”这个词也意味着 从词源学上讲，在梵文中，它的意思是「度量」， 不仅仅是去沉思，去深思 ——这也是冥想的一部分， 它同样意味着要了解「量度」。 「量度」就意味着比较。 而现在，我想说，演讲者要说： 当有了比较，就不会有冥想了。 你理解了吗？ 噢，加油啊！ 我们是否稍微有点理解对方的意思了？ 我们总是在度量： 更好、更多、更少、更伟大。 这整个度量的运动 ——也就是「比较」—— 它可以彻底结束吗 ——既包括心理上的结束也包括外在上的结束。 这就是冥想的一部分。 这就是当你探询什么是「冥想」后会得到的答案， 冥想不仅意味着思考、沉思、静观和观察， 它同样意味着彻底结束掉所有的比较 ——矮的、高的、宽广的、宽阔的、 美丽的、不美丽的 ——所有这些都是自我的模式。 当有了量度，就会有自我，对吧？ 所以我们是否可能去过一种 没有任何形式的比较的日常生活？ 那时你就会亲自看到 大脑所具有的非凡的品质。 那时大脑本身就会有其自身的运动： 除了它自身的运动，它还会具有另一种品质， 那时它就是无比稳定的、坚定的， 但这并不是说 它就不会让步放弃， 而是它的让步放弃也是坚定而有力的。 而冥想同样也意味着 摆脱掉文字词语和思想的网络。 对吗？ 这样大脑就不会纠结于那些文字、 模式、体系和量度了。 那时就会有绝对的「寂静」。 而这种「寂静」是必不可少的。 寂静也有它自己的声音。 你是否曾经聆听过一棵树？ 这并不是某个愚蠢疯狂的问题。 你是否聆听过一棵树？ 一棵古老的树的声音。 当大风和微风都停息了之后， 那棵树会变得彻底寂静， 树叶不再沙沙作响， 那时你便能聆听到树木的声音了。 有一位科学家曾经问过我们这个问题。 然后他接受了我们的观点，所以你们最好也能接受它， 因为你们都喜爱科学家， 那些积累知识的人。 但我们要去发现那种「寂静之声」， 当有了这种完全的、绝对的寂静——不是那种相对性的寂静 相对性的寂静可以通过思想、 意志来达到，你可以说：我必须要保持寂静。 但这根本就不是寂静。 只有当你摆脱掉了 所有人类所积累起来的事物，那时才会有寂静。 在那种寂静中，你会强烈地感受到那种巨大与广阔， 那时你就不会再问任何问题了。 答案就在那里。
1:06:47 Then we ought to ask also a question: what is creation? If you say, ‘God created the world’, then that is the end of it. That is one of the convenient statements in various books. That is no answer. But if one begins to ask, ‘What is creation? How has all this come into being: the tiger, the deer, the marvellous tree, and the majestic mountains, and the great rivers of the world, and this vast population, how does all this happen?’ We must distinguish between creation and invention. Creation is totally different from invention. Invention is still within the field of knowledge. The man who invented the jet, he moved from knowledge to knowledge. He invented. All the new inventions in the technological world are based on knowledge. Perhaps a second of not thinking, and then something comes but it is still within the area of knowledge. Creation is not invention. Creation is there only when knowledge has come to an end. You understand all this? Then that creation is, if we can use that word, ‘nothing’. Nothing means not a thing. A thing in Latin, and so on, is thought. When there is no – when there is absolute silence of thought, then there is a totally different dimension. 然后我们也应该问一个问题： 什么是「创造」？ 如果你说，“是上帝创造了这个世界”，那么问题就结束了。 这是各种书籍所给出的方便的陈述之一。 但这并不是答案。 然而如果我们开始发问，“什么是创造？ 万物生灵是如何诞生的： 老虎、小鹿，不可思议的大树， 雄伟庄严的群山， 世界上那些巨大的河流， 以及庞大惊人的人口， 这一切是如何才会发生的呢？” 我们必须要区分一下「创造」和「发明」。 「创造」是完全不同于「发明」的。 「发明」仍旧是落入于知识的领域中的。 那个发明了喷气式飞机的人， 他只是从一种知识前进到另一种知识。 然后发明一些东西。 科技世界中所有的新发明 都是建立在知识之上的。 也许有那么一个片刻，他没有思考， 然后他灵光一现了，但那仍旧是落入于知识的范畴中的。 而「创造」并不是发明。 只有当知识终结后，「创造」才会出现。 你们明白这一切了吗？ 那时那种「创造」，它就是 「空无」——如果我们可以使用这个词的话。 「空无」（nothing）的意思就是它不是一个“东西（thing）”。 在拉丁语等等之中，“东西（thing）”就是“思想（thought）”。 而当没有了 当思想变得完全寂静， 那时就会有一个截然不同的空间维度了。
1:10:02 May we get up, please? 我们是不是可以站起来了？