Krishnamurti Subtitles

BR85DS1.2 - 在学习中存在着自由 home
与四个学生的第二次讨论
布洛克伍德，英国
1985年6月9日


0:37 K: The last time we met we were talking about, weren’t we, about your backgrounds, your upbringing, your childhood, your education. And all this in various forms has conditioned you: newspapers, magazines, television, politics, economics, climate, food. Talking about food are you all very healthy? 0:37 克： 我们上次见面时， 不是在谈论 你们的背景、成长经历、 童年和教育吗？ 所有这些都以各种形式 塑造着你们， 比如，报纸、杂志、电视、 政治、经济、气候、食物。 说到食物， 你们都很健康吗？
1:26 D: Fairly healthy. 1:26 丁： 相当健康。
1:29 K: Good strong bodies? Or you are all rather floppy, sloppy, feeble? 1:29 克： 身体强壮吗？ 还是说，你们都比较 软弱、邋遢、孱弱？
1:37 A: I don’t think... 1:37 甲： 我不认为
1:40 K: Have you got a good strong body that can play tennis or run or… I used to run five miles a day at one time. Can you do all that? Or you are all rather lazy about that kind of thing? 1:40 克： 你身强体壮， 可以打网球、跑步或 我曾经一天跑五英里。 你们能做到吗？ 还是你们都懒得做这种事？
2:02 C: No, I think we can all do some exercise quite well. 2:02 丙： 不，我认为我们 都能很好地做一些运动。
2:05 K: But do you do it? 2:05 克： 但你会这样做吗？
2:06 A: Yes, sir. 2:06 甲： 是的，先生。
2:06 K: Yes? Good. You have good food here. 2:06 克： 是吗？好的。 你们这里饮食不错。
2:12 A: Yes, very good. 2:12 甲： 是的，非常好。
2:14 K: Of course! Very good food. And is your brain working properly? 2:14 克： 当然！伙食非常不错。 你的大脑运转正常吗？
2:20 A: Properly? 2:20 甲： 正常？
2:23 K: Properly in the sense, acute, sharp, clear, not muddled, confused. 2:23 克： 正常的意思，敏锐、清晰、 不糊涂、不困惑。
2:34 D: I think sometimes we do get confused. 2:34 丁： 我想有时 我们确实会感到困惑。
2:36 K: Not sometimes. You know, if you say sometimes then it is most of the time! 2:36 克： 不是有时。 你知道，如果你说有时， 那就是大部分时间！
2:44 D: Yes. 2:44 丁： 是的。
2:46 A: We try to be clear, sir, but most of the time one is confused. 2:46 甲： 我们想弄清楚，先生， 但大多数时候还是很困惑。
2:54 K: No, I am asking you is your brain clear, alert, active – not chattering, I don’t mean that – active, full of vitality? You are quite young. 2:54 克： 不，我是问你， 你的大脑是否清晰、 机敏、活跃——不是喋喋不休， 我不是这个意思— 是否活跃、充满活力？ 你们很年轻。
3:10 K: How old are you? 3:10 克： 你多大了？
3:12 A: Seventeen. 3:12 甲： 十七岁。
3:13 K: And you? 3:13 克： 你呢？
3:14 B: Twenty six. 3:14 乙： 二十六。
3:15 K: And you? 3:15 克： 你呢？
3:16 C: Eighteen. 3:16 丙： 十八.
3:16 D: Seventeen. 3:16 丁： 十七.
3:17 K: My gosh! You have got a long life ahead of you. And so is your mind, is your brain very alert? 3:17 克： 天哪！你还有 很长的人生要走。 那么你的心智、 你的大脑很警觉吗？
3:30 C: What did you mean by alert? 3:30 丙： 你说的警觉是什么意思？
3:31 K: I will tell you. Watching the birds, the trees, the grass, the flowers, and the flight of those wood pigeons. Have you watched the flowers? 3:31 克： 我会告诉你的。 观察鸟儿、树木、 花草，还有那些飞翔的鹁鸽。 你观察过花吗？
3:44 A: Yes, sir. 3:44 甲： 是的，先生。
3:45 K: The shape of the trees, the sound when the strong wind is there, have you heard the trees? And also have you heard when the trees are very quiet? The other day it was absolutely motionless – right? I don’t know if you watched all this. And there is a certain quality of silence, and the sound of a tree. I won’t go into all that. But do you have such a brain that is watching, looking, observing, feeling, or is it all casual? 3:45 克： 观察树的轮廓， 这里刮大风时， 你听过树木的声音吗？ 还有，你听到过 树很安静时的声音吗？ 前几天，树是 完全不动的——对吗？ 我不知道你们是否 观察过这些。 那里有一种寂静的品质， 还有树的声音。 这些我就不多说了。 但你有没有这样的大脑， 它在观看、在注视、 在观察、在感受， 还是说，大脑是漫不经心的？
4:30 A: More often it tends to be casual. 4:30 甲： 更多时候会是漫不经心的。
4:33 K: Casual in the sense it doesn’t care. You don’t mind what you think, what you feel, there is not self-awareness, a critical awareness of oneself. 4:33 克： 漫不经心，意思是不在乎。 你不在乎自己在想什么， 有什么感受， 没有自我觉察， 没有一种批判性的自我觉察。
4:49 A: Perhaps this relates to what you mentioned the other day about looking at oneself. 4:49 甲： 也许这与你前几天提到的 审视自己有关。
4:55 K: I am coming to that. 4:55 克： 我马上就会谈到这个。
4:57 A: Do you think we could go into that? 4:57 甲： 你认为我们可以探究这个问题吗？
4:58 K: Yes, I am going to go into it. But first, one has to have, doesn’t one, I am asking you, don’t listen to me merely, I am asking you, shouldn’t you have a very good brain, not just being clever, I don’t mean that, or having a lot of words, degrees behind your name. But a brain that is watching, listening, looking, weighing, impersonal, all that. Or are you all the time thinking about yourself? About your background – Oh, I have been brought up wrongly, my father is a little bit odd and so on. So is there a critical self-awareness? 4:58 克： 是的，我这就来探讨一下。 但首先，一个人是不是 必须要有……我在问你， 别光听我说，我在问你， 你是不是应该 有个非常好的大脑， 不只是聪明， 我不是那个意思， 或者在你的名字后面 有很多头衔、学衔。 而是有个冷静客观的大脑， 观察、倾听、 审视、权衡，等等。 还是说你时时刻刻都 在考虑你自己？ 考虑你的背景—— 哦，我是在错误的教育下长大的， 我父亲有点古怪，等等。 那么，那里有一种 批判性的自我觉察吗？
6:05 C: No, sir. 6:05 丙： 没有，先生。
6:06 D: No, I don’t think so. 6:06 丁： 不，我认为没有。
6:08 K: No. Not selfishness, I don’t mean that. Awareness in which you don’t choose, I say this is good, but to be aware. You understand what I am talking about? If you are not, why aren’t you? 6:08 克： 不，不是自私， 我不是这个意思。 觉察，而不做选择， 不说我认为这个好， 而是觉察。 你明白我在说什么吗？ 如果你不明白， 为什么不明白？
6:32 A: I tend to get distracted. 6:32 甲： 我容易分心。
6:37 K: Distracted? 6:37 克： 分心？
6:38 A: Yes. 6:38 甲： 是的。
6:40 K: Now wait a minute. Is there such thing as distraction? Careful, think it out with me. I am asking you: why do you call it distraction? 6:40 克： 等一下。 有分心这回事吗？ 注意，跟我一起想一想。 我在问你： 为什么你管这叫分心？
6:57 A: Because I am trying to pay attention to a certain thing but then my mind wanders and I start thinking about other things. 6:57 甲： 因为 我想专注于某件事情， 但随后我思想就开了小差， 开始想其它事情了。
7:05 K: You are reading, preparing or you are studying a book, some particular subject – right? And as you are looking at it your mind goes off. Your have several thoughts. Why? Why do you call it distraction? 7:05 克： 你正在阅读，准备阅读 或专研一本书， 学习一门功课——对吗？ 你读的时候走神了。 你出现了好几个念头。 为什么？ 为什么你称之为分心？
7:27 A: Because there is something that I want to do. 7:27 甲： 因为我想做一件事。
7:30 K: But if you have other kinds of thoughts that is part of your being, part of your brain, so why do you call it distraction? 7:30 克： 但是，如果你有其它想法， 那也是你存在的一部分， 是你大脑的一部分， 那你为什么说它是分心呢？
7:41 C: Because we don’t accept those thoughts that come about while we are reading. 7:41 丙： 因为我们不接受 阅读时产生的那些想法。
7:44 K: So why don’t you pursue that for a while? 7:44 克： 那么，你为什么 不继续想一会儿呢？
7:48 C: Because we want to read. 7:48 丙： 因为我们想读书。
7:50 K: I know, just a minute. 7:50 克： 我知道，稍等一下。
7:52 K: Listen to what I am saying. You want to concentrate on a particular page. As you are concentrating, looking at it, you have other thoughts. Now why don’t you pursue the other thoughts and not call it distraction? You follow? Don’t call it distraction. 7:52 克： 听我说。 你想集中精力看某一页。 你正专心看书， 这时冒出来其它想法。 现在，你为什么不追踪 其它想法，不说它是分心呢？ 你明白吗？ 不要称之为分心。
8:20 A: I tend to see them as unimportant compared to what I have to do. 8:20 甲： 我往往认为，与我必须 做的事情相比，那些想法不重要。
8:24 K: But you want to read that page, you want to learn that subject and other thoughts interfere, why do they interfere? Just go into it slowly. 8:24 克： 但你想读那页书， 你想学习那门功课， 其它想法就会干扰， 为什么会干扰呢？ 慢慢来吧。
8:47 B: Maybe it could be our problems... 8:47 乙： 这也许是我们的问题
8:49 K: Don’t make it into a problem. Just look at what I am saying. I want to look at that clock, I am watching it, and other thoughts come in. The moment I call it distraction I have separated the whole process of thinking. You understand what I am saying? 8:49 克： 不要把这弄成一个 问题。看看我在说什么。 我想看那个钟， 我正看着它， 其它想法出现了。 我一旦说这是分心， 就拆开了整个思想过程。 你明白我在说什么吗？
9:15 C: No, not very well. 9:15 丙： 不是很明白。
9:18 K: When I am reading that page, I am thinking, observing, looking, seeing how the word is spelt and so on. 9:18 克： 我读那一页时， 我在思考、观察、观看， 看单词如何拼写等等。
9:27 A: I am not sure I am even doing that when I look at a page. 9:27 甲： 我甚至不确定 我看一页书时是否在这样做。
9:32 K: No, you may read very quickly, or it may be a very difficult subject, so you have to read carefully, right? As you are reading carefully there is a second or two when this other thought comes in. That interference you call distraction. Why do you call it distraction? I know what you are going to say but find out why you use that word. You are attracted by that page, or that particular subject, or you are watching a tree, or bird, other thoughts come in. Why do you call it distraction? It is a whole movement of thought, isn’t it? 9:32 克： 不，你可能读得很快， 那也可能是很难的课程， 所以你必须仔细读，对吗？ 在你认真阅读的过程中， 会有一两秒钟 出现其它想法。 这种干扰，你称作分心。 为什么你管它叫分心？ 我知道你想说什么， 但要弄清你为什么用这个词。 你让那一页吸引住了， 或者让那门功课吸引住了， 或者你在看一棵树、一只鸟， 其它想法出现了。 你为什么称之为分心呢？ 那是思想的整体运动， 不是吗？
10:28 A: Yes, but I don’t see it as that, sir. 10:28 甲： 是的，但我 不这么认为，先生。
10:31 K: See it now. 10:31 克： 现在看一看。
10:32 A: Yes. 10:32 甲： 是的。
10:34 K: It is a whole movement of thinking. Thinking about the subject you are reading, memorising, because unfortunately you are going to pass some examination therefore you must be prepared, and a thought arises. Give a second to investigate that thought and come back, so that you begin gradually to learn how to look at yourself. You understand what I am saying? 10:34 克： 这是一个 完整的思维运动。 你在思考自己正在阅读、 背诵的功课， 因为不幸的是， 你需要通过考试， 你必须做好准备， 这时冒出来一个念头。 留一秒钟时间 调查一下这个念头， 然后再回来， 这样你就会逐渐学会 如何观察自己。 你明白我在说什么吗？
11:21 B: Sir, what do you mean by investigating a thought? 11:21 乙： 先生，您说的 调查一个念头是什么意思？
11:25 K: Just a minute. I am polishing my shoes, which I generally do, and a thought arises for a second or two, or a little longer, I want to find out why it comes. I find that because it is worrying, or it is this, it is something else, so for a minute or two I say, wait, why I am thinking that? Is there some interest in this when I am polishing my shoe? Right? You follow? I am interested in polishing my shoe, I am making it as clean and nice looking as possible. So there is not this terrible word ‘distraction’. You are then aware. You are learning a subject, your mind is active and you are active. 11:25 克： 稍等一下。 我正在擦鞋， 我经常擦鞋， 一个念头出现了 持续了一两秒钟，或者更长一点， 我想弄清它出现的原因。 我发现，这或者是因为担心， 或者是因为这个，或者是因为别的什么， 所以有一两分钟，我会说， 等等，我为什么会这么想？ 我在擦鞋时 考虑这个是不是有点意思？ 对不对？ 你明白吗？ 我对擦鞋很感兴趣， 我尽可能擦得干净漂亮。 所以这里没有“分心” 这个可怕的词。 那时你就很警觉。 你在学习一门功课， 你思维很活跃， 你也很活跃。
12:43 A: You seem to make a difference between concentration and attention. 12:43 甲： 您似乎把 专心和注意区分开了。
12:47 K: Oh rather, we will go into that presently, that is a little more complex. Wait a minute. If you could drop that word ‘distraction’ from your brain, see what happens. See what happens if you don’t say, ‘By Jove, I am distracted, I must pay attention’ then you are creating conflict. 12:47 克： 哦，是这样， 我们稍后再讨论那个， 那个稍微复杂一点。 稍等一下。 你把“分心” 这个词从脑子里拿走， 看看会发生什么。 如果你不说： “天哪， 我分心了， 我必须集中注意力”， 那你就会制造冲突。
13:18 A: You mean there are two different movements going on? 13:18 甲： 你是说现在 有两种不同的运动？
13:22 K: Yes. I must concentrate but also I must... you follow? Can you drop altogether from your vocabulary ‘distraction’? Learn. You are learning, therefore there is no distraction. I don’t know if you follow that. You are learning about that page, you are learning about why that thought arises, why it interferes. It means probably you are not interested in that particular subject but there are other interests inside you. You understand? 13:22 克： 是的。我必须集中精力， 但我也必须……你明白吗？ 你能把“分心”从你的 词汇中完全去掉吗？ 学习。 你在学习，所以不存在分心。 我不知道你是否明白。 你在读那页书， 你在学习为什么会产生 这种想法，为什么这会干扰你。 这意味着你可能 对那门功课不感兴趣， 但你心里有 别的兴趣。你明白吗？
14:19 K: And you agree, or not? 14:19 克： 你同意，还是不同意？
14:21 A: Yes, sir. 14:21 甲： 同意，先生。
14:22 K: You see it? Not I am teaching you, learn about it. 14:22 克： 你看到了吗？ 不是我在教你，是你在学习。
14:30 B: It seems you are using the word ‘learning’ in a different sense. 14:30 乙： 看来你是从一个不同的 角度用“学习”这个词的。
14:35 K: Yes, I am learning. I am learning about that page, that subject. 14:35 克： 是的，我正在学习。 我正在读那页书，学习那门功课。
14:40 B: But that learning is accumulation of knowledge. 14:40 乙： 但学习是知识的积累。
14:43 K: Wait. Don’t go too far ahead. Go step by step otherwise you will... I am learning about the subject, I am also learning why there are these other thoughts that come into being. So, the whole movement is to learn. I am learning about that subject, that particular page, and also I am learning about why thoughts arise. So it is a whole movement of learning. He asks: what is the difference between learning and accumulating knowledge? 14:43 克： 等等。别往前走太远。 一步一步来，否则你会 我在学习这门功课的 同时，也在学习 为什么会产生这些 其它想法。 所以，整个过程就是学习。 我在学习这门功课， 正在读那页书， 也在学习为什么 会产生其它想法。 所以，这是一个完整的 学习运动。 他问： 学习和积累知识有什么区别？
15:33 K: Right? 15:33 克： 对吗？
15:34 B: Yes, sir. 15:34 乙： 是的，先生。
15:35 K: Wait a minute. What do you say? Do you see a difference? Careful. Do you see the difference between accumulation, acquiring and not acquiring, which is the movement of learning, more and more, learning. There was a very famous painter, I believe, not I believe – Goya, Spanish. He said when he was ninety, or ninety two, ‘I am still learning’. You understand? He never said ‘I have learnt’. So do you see the difference? I am not saying you should, or should not, but do you see the difference between acquiring knowledge, memorising, not only to pass exams but to have a certain skill which you can use through life to earn a job and earn a livelihood. Do you see the difference between that and learning? 15:35 克： 等一下。你怎么看？ 你觉得有什么不同吗？ 注意。 你看到积累、 获取， 和不获取，也就是学习、 不断学习之间的区别了吗。 有位著名画家， 我认为，不是我认为—— 戈雅，西班牙人。 他在九十岁或九十二岁时说， “我仍在学习”。 你明白吗？ 他从不说，“我学会了”。 那么，你看到区别了吗？ 我不是说你应不应该学习， 而是你是否看到获取知识、 记忆， 不仅为了通过考试， 而且还为了拥有某种技能， 以便利用这种技能找工作、谋生。 你看到这与 学习的区别了吗？
17:04 A: No, sir, I usually tend to mean the same thing when I say learning, as accumulation of knowledge. I don’t see what you mean. 17:04 甲： 不，先生， 我往往把学习 和积累知识看成 是一个意思。 我不明白您的意思。
17:15 K: What do you say, sir? 17:15 克： 你怎么看，先生？
17:17 C: There seems to be one learning where you receive many things and you read and you hear, and the other one you experience. 17:17 丙： 似乎有两种学习方式， 一种是接受许多东西， 阅读和聆听， 另一种是体验。
17:33 K: All right, I will put it this way: you have accumulated a lot of things in your house, in your room. And that accumulation is you. You have collected a lot of memories, a lot of pain, a lot of fears, then you become a slave to what you have accumulated. 17:33 克： 好吧，我这样说吧： 你在家里、在房间里 积累了很多东西。 这些积累就是你自己。 你积攒了很多记忆、 很多痛苦、很多恐惧， 然后你就成了 那些积累的奴隶。
18:02 A: Which is a slave to myself. 18:02 甲： 成了我自己的奴隶。
18:06 K: Yes, collecting. Whereas there is no freedom. There is freedom when there is learning. I wonder if you can capture this. You tell me what you mean by learning. Forget what I have said. But what do you mean by learning? You learn – tell me. Be simple. 18:06 克： 是的，积累。 但没有自由。 你学习，才会有自由。 不知你能否领会这一点。 你告诉我你所说的 学习是什么意思。 忘掉我的话。 你说的学习是什么意思？ 你学习—— 告诉我。简单点说。
18:39 D: I find that I learn in order to know so I am accumulating memories, so that I can remember something. That is what I do when I say I am learning. 18:39 丁： 我发现 我学习是为了知道， 所以我在积累记忆， 以便记住些东西。 这就是我说的学习。
18:54 K: You are learning to drive a car. And the instructor tells you how to hold the wheel, what are the pedals, etc., he informs you. And then he tells you start slowly and you begin to learn how to drive a car. It may take you three weeks, or a month, or a week and so on. There what have you done? In that process what has been happening to your brain? Just look at it carefully, don’t answer. It has taken you three weeks or much longer to learn how to drive a car. 18:54 克： 比方说你学开车。 教练会告诉你如何握方向盘， 什么是踏板等等， 他教你。 然后他告诉你慢慢启动， 你就开始学习开车了。 你可能要花三个星期、 一个月、一个星期，等等。 在这个过程中，你做了什么？ 在这个过程中， 你的大脑发生了什么情况？ 请仔细观察一下，不要回答。 你花了三个星期或更长时间 学习开车。
19:49 A: I have acquired a skill. 19:49 甲： 我掌握了一门技能。
19:53 K: Which means what? 19:53 克： 那意味着什么？
19:58 K: Tell me slowly, talk to me, you two keep quiet. 19:58 克： 慢慢告诉我，跟我说， 你俩先保持安静。
20:03 A: I have become familiar with certain things. 20:03 甲： 我熟悉了一些事情。
20:06 K: Go on, tell me more. 20:06 克： 继续说，多给我讲讲。
20:09 C: It has become sort of automatic, sort of reflex because if you drive a car it is the same things that come out every time that you do it. 20:09 丙： 有点成了自动的， 有点像条件反射， 因为你每次开车， 都是做同样的事情。
20:19 K: So what has happened? You have learnt how to drive a car, you have learnt how to shift the gears, how to put on the brake and how to accelerate, and you listen to the engine, how it is working, and also you are watching, the road, keeping to your side and so on. And also you are watching about three hundred yards ahead of you. So that you are taking the whole thing in. The road, the wetness of the road, etc. So, in doing all that what has happened to your brain? You answer me. All right, take something: you are all learning mathematics, aren’t you? 20:19 克： 那么，发生了什么？ 你学会了开车， 学会了如何换挡、 如何踩刹车、如何加速， 你听发动机的声音， 听它的工作状况， 你也观察路面， 沿着你这一侧开，等等。 你还要看到前方 三百码左右那样远。 这样你就能把 一切都看在眼里。 路面、路面积水等等。 与此同时， 你的大脑发生了什么情况？ 你回答我。 好吧，举个例子： 你们都在学数学，不是吗？
21:21 B: Yes. 21:21 乙： 是的。
21:24 K: Some kind, not too... So, when you are learning mathematics or history, you are accumulating information, and you are storing that information, the brain is storing it, right? 21:24 克： 某种，不太 那么，你学习数学、历史， 积累信息， 储存这些信息， 大脑储存这些信息，对吗？
21:43 A: As memory. 21:43 甲： 作为记忆。
21:46 K: And you use that to get a job, to pass and so on, you use that. When you learn how to write you are doing the same thing, which is, it becomes almost automatic. But driving, you can't do quite automatically. See the difference. 21:46 克： 你以此 找工作、通过考试等等。 学习写作， 你也在做同样的事情， 这几乎成了自动的了。 而开车则不能完全自动。 看看有什么不同。
22:14 B: Yes, you also have to watch. 22:14 乙： 是的，你也必须观察。
22:16 K: You have to be very careful. You are going about fifty, fifty-five, or sixty, or more, you have to be very careful. You can’t remove your hands from the steering wheel and talk about, gesturing, you have to watch. See the difference in the two? 22:16 克： 你必须非常注意。 你开到了五六十迈，甚至更快， 你必须非常小心。 你不能撒开方向盘， 谈话、比划， 你必须留神观察。 看到两者的区别了吗？
22:37 D: But still this watching seems to be somewhat automatic. 22:37 丁： 但这种观察似乎 还是有些自动的。
22:43 K: Yes, it is almost automatic. I don’t like to use the word ‘automatic’. 22:43 克： 是的，几乎是自动的。 我不喜欢用“自动”这个词。
22:49 D: Mechanical. 22:49 丁： 机械的。
22:54 K: Like mechanics or something. And you call that learning. You call learning how to write, about mathematics, chemistry and so on. In that process it has taken you ten years, or fifteen years, or twenty years, during that time you have accumulated a lot of knowledge. And that knowledge almost becomes normal. So the brain then becomes mechanical. 22:54 克： 像机械之类的。 你说那是学习。 你把学习如何写作、 学习数学、化学等等 称为学习。 这个过程花了你十年、 十五年或二十年时间， 在此期间你积累了 大量知识。 这些知识几乎成了常规。 于是，大脑活动 就机械呆板起来了。
23:48 A: You mean we are so used to it. 23:48 甲： 你是说我们对此 习以为常了吗？
23:50 K: Used to it, you have learnt about your subject. You are an engineer, or chemist, you are learning. And then you move along, but always the basis is previous knowledge. You may add to it, but still the basis is knowledge. So enquire into knowledge. 23:50 克： 习惯了， 你学习了你的专业。 你是工程师、化学家， 你学习。 然后你继续发展， 但总是以以前的知识为基础。 你可以补充知识， 但基础仍然是知识。 所以要探究知识问题。
24:26 A: Knowledge seems to be... 24:26 甲： 知识似乎……
24:28 K: Learn from what I am saying. Learn, find out what you mean by knowledge. What is knowledge? Enquire. Learn. Move. Is it like a computer? You know how a computer works. More or less. I don’t know either but you programme it, right? So there are people who know how to programme and then it replies and so on, it tells you. Are you like that? 24:28 克： 要领会我的话。 学习，弄清你说的 知识是什么意思。 什么是知识？ 询问。 学习。进步。 这是不是类似于电脑呢？ 你知道电脑如何工作。 多少知道些。 我也不太了解， 但你可以编程，对吧？ 有懂编程的人， 然后电脑就会应答，等等， 它会回应你。 你也是这样的吗？
25:31 D: That is what it seems sometimes. 25:31 丁： 有时看起来就是这样。
25:33 K: Just listen first before you answer. 25:33 克： 先听，然后再回答。
25:36 A: Yes, sir, because I too acquire certain bits of information, I play around with them and use them in the way that I want to. 25:36 甲： 是的，先生， 我也获取了一定的信息， 我摆弄一下， 并按照我的想法使用这些东西。
25:48 K: So are you being programmed? 25:48 克： 那么说你给编程了吗？
25:53 A: Yes. 25:53 甲： 是的。
25:58 K: Don’t be shy, sir. 25:58 克： 别害羞，先生。
26:00 D: Yes, I agree. 26:00 丁： 是的，我同意。
26:02 B: I am not sure that I am even aware of that process. 26:02 乙： 我甚至不能确定我是否 意识到了这个过程。
26:06 K: Are you, find out. I am asking you now, not next day, or later on, but I am asking you now, find out if you are being programmed, as a Filipino, or as a Hindu, or as a Christian, or something else. Which is, you are being told from childhood, you are a Filipino, I am a Hindu, she is a Christian, and she is a Hindu or a Brahmin, and he is from South America, Argentina, so you are being programmed. If you are a Catholic you have been programmed for two thousand years. See the fact. I am not saying it is right or wrong. 27:13 And she is a Hindu of a certain strata of society called the Brahmanas, and she has been programmed to say, ‘I am a Brahmin’, or ‘I am no longer a Brahmin’. It is the same process, isn’t it? You have been programmed as a Hindu for the last three to five thousand years. Hindu is from the word ‘Indus’, the famous river, I won’t go into it. So, you are being programmed, it may be necessary. I am being programmed when I learn how to dance, how to play football, or cricket. I have learnt. 26:06 克： 是吗，弄清楚。 我现在请你， 不是明天，也不是以后， 而是现在，我请你 看看自己是否被编程了， 做菲律宾人， 或者做印度人， 或者做基督徒， 或者其他什么。 也就是说，你从小 人家就告诉你，你是菲律宾人， 我是印度人， 她是基督徒， 她是印度人或婆罗门， 他是南美人，阿根廷人， 所以你们被编程了。 你要是天主教徒， 两千年来你一直是被这样设定的。 看看这个事实。 我不是说这个是对是错。 27:13 她是印度教徒，属于 某个称为婆罗门的社会阶层， 她受到设定， 认为，“我是婆罗门 ” 或“我不再是婆罗门”。 这是同样的过程，不是吗？ 在过去三五千年里， 你一直被设定为印度教徒。 Hindu(印度教的)源于Indus（印度河）这个词， 那是条著名的河，我就不多说了。 所以，你被编程了， 这可能是必要的。 我学习跳舞、 踢球或打板球， 我就被编程了。 我学会了那些东西。
28:16 A: So, when I use a certain bit of information that I have about you, would you call that programming as well? 28:16 甲： 那么，我使用 关于你的某些信息， 你会管这个也叫编程吗？
28:23 K: If you use that knowledge of what you have learnt about me and that becomes a memory then it becomes a barrier, you then don’t look at me afresh. 28:23 克： 你了解了我， 你使用那种知识， 那种知识就成了记忆， 而这就成了障碍， 你就不会重新看我。
28:35 A: Every time I see you I remember what I have... 28:35 甲： 每次见到你， 我都会想起我曾经
28:37 K: Of course, all the images you have built about him or her, and that image prevents you from looking at him afresh. You are meeting all this? 28:37 克： 当然，你 塑造的他（她）那些形象， 这种形象会妨碍 你重新看他。 这些你理解了吗？
28:49 C: But still you have to remember certain things. 28:49 丙： 但有些事还是得记住。
28:51 K: Of course. I can’t each time ask you what is your name, it sounds silly. 28:51 克： 当然。我不能每次 都问，你叫什么名字， 那很可笑。
28:57 A: But then you have to make a certain... 28:57 甲： 但是， 那你就必须
28:59 K: Find out, learn. Don’t say I have to make a certain... go into it and find out. You see, you are not doing it. Wait. Are you learning from what I am saying? I am saying, asking you: are you learning from what we have discussed or are you just passing it by, when we said that you are being programmed? 28:59 克： 弄清楚，学习。 不要说那我就必须 探询一下，弄个明白。 你看，你没有这么做。 等一下。 你从我的话中 领会到什么了吗？ 我在问你： 我们说你被编程了， 你从讨论中 有所领会， 还是只是一带而过？
29:35 A: I can see that, sir. 29:35 甲： 我可以看到这个，先生。
29:37 K: Is that a fact to you? You see the difference between a fact and an idea? Be subtle, be quick. Don’t take time. Look, that clock is a fact, but that is a complicated fact, there is a lot of mechanism, originality, inventing, there it is in front of us. You can touch it, you call feel it, you can almost smell it, you can’t quite taste it, but it is a fact. You don’t make that into an idea, it is a clock, or a watch. Now I say to you, just listen quietly, that you are being programmed. Is that a fact to you, or an idea that you are being programmed? You see the difference? 29:37 克：这对你是事实吗？ 你明白事实 和想法的区别了吗？ 要机敏、迅速。 不要等好半天。 看，那个钟是事实， 但这是个复杂的事实， 有很多机械装置、 有独创、发明， 它摆在我们面前。 你可以摸它， 你可以感觉它， 你几乎可以闻到它， 你不太可能去尝它， 但它是事实。 你不能把钟变成想法， 它就是一个钟。 现在我对你说， 静静地听着， 你被编程了。 这对你来说是事实， 还是一个想法：你被编程了？ 你看到区别了吗？
31:04 C: When we look at it, when we look at all the processes that have programmed us we can see that it is a fact. 31:04 丙： 我们审视这个后， 我们审视把我们 编程的所有过程后， 可以看到这是事实。
31:10 K: So it is not an idea. 31:10 克： 那么这不是一个想法。
31:12 C: No. 31:12 丙： 不是.
31:14 K: Wait, I’ll show you. When you have a toothache it is a fact. You don’t say, pretend, or have an idea that you have a toothache. Have you listened? 31:14 克： 等等，我来告诉你。 你要是牙疼，这是事实。 你不会认为或者假装牙疼， 或者抱着一个你牙疼的想法。 你听我说什么了吗？
31:29 A: Yes. By the fact do you mean something that exists. 31:29 甲： 是的。你说的事实 是指存在的事情吗？
31:34 K: Not only exists. I am asking you: find out for yourself whether you are being programmed. When you say, ‘I realise that, that is a fact to me that I am being programmed’, it is not an idea, right? Are you paying attention? 31:34 克： 不仅存在。 我在请你 自己看看你 是否被编程了。 你说，“我意识到了， 对我来说， 我被编程是一个事实”， 这不是想法，对吗？ 你在注意听吗？
31:59 B: Yes. 31:59 乙： 是的。
32:00 K: Wait, go slowly. I say to you, just listen carefully, you are the world and the world is you. Is that an idea or a fact? Careful. Look at it carefully. Is that statement that you are the world and the world is you, is that a fact to you? Or an idea, a Utopia, a feeling that it’s marvellous. 32:00 克： 等等，慢慢来。 我对你说，仔细听好， 你就是世界，世界就是你。 这是想法还是事实？ 注意。 仔细看看。 你就是世界， 世界就是你，这句话 对你来说是事实， 还是想法、乌托邦、 一种很棒的感觉？
32:44 B: I think it is an idea, sir. 32:44 乙： 我认为是想法，先生。
32:46 K: Yes. Why? Why do you make it into an idea? I will go further: ‘you’ – is it an idea or a fact? Your thinking, your anger, your jealousy, your fears, your antagonisms – is that a fact or is it an idea? Now you are going to find it awfully difficult. Go into it, learn. 32:46 克： 是的。为什么？ 为什么你把它当成想法？ 我更进一步问：“你”—— 是一个想法还是事实？ 你思考、你生气、 你嫉妒、你害怕、 你对抗—— 这些是事实还是想法？ 现在你会发现这很难理解。 探询一下，学习一下。
33:30 A: It is a fact that this organism exists over here. 33:30 甲：存在这个身体， 就在这里，这是事实。
33:35 K: The organism is a fact. I have got a thumb, you have got a thumb. You are short, I am tall, or I am short, you are tall. That’s a fact. You didn’t create that tree, thank God! Or the tiger. But you created this room – not you – but you created this room, right? Now enquire, learn, move further. I am asking you to learn about yourself: what you think, what you feel, then go on, learn. 33:35 克： 身体是事实。 我有大拇指，你也有大拇指。 你矮，我高，或者我矮，你高。 这是事实。 感谢上帝， 你没有造出那棵树！ 或者造出老虎。 但你建造了这个房间 ——不是你—— 而是你建造了这个房间，对吗？ 现在，询问，学习，往前走。 我请你了解一下你自己： 你的想法，你的感受， 然后继续，学习。
34:36 D: Krishnaji, when you say learn about yourself, sometimes I think I do that but that is just memorising what I like, what I don’t like. 34:36 丁： 克里希那吉， 你说了解你自己， 有时我觉得我是 这样做的，但那只是记住 我喜欢什么，不喜欢什么。
34:47 K: That’s it. So, who is the ‘I’ that likes and dislikes? You understand? Go on, I am pushing. I like her, I don’t like you. She is a friend, you are not my friend. And I am angry. Is anger different from me? 34:47 克： 就是这样。 那么，那个喜欢什么、 不喜欢什么的“我”是谁？ 明白了吗？ 继续探询，我在用力推你。 我喜欢她，我不喜欢你。 她是我的朋友， 你不是我的朋友。 我很生气。 愤怒不同于我吗？
35:24 A: No. 35:24 甲： 没有不同。
35:25 K: No. Why do you say no? 35:25 克： 没有不同，为什么说没有？
35:27 D: It is part of me, I could say. 35:27 丁： 可以说， 愤怒是我的一部分。
35:33 K: Pleasure is part of you, fear is part of you, pain is part of you and so on. Do you put all the parts together and make it whole? You understand what I am saying? 35:33 克： 快乐是你的一部分， 恐惧是你的一部分， 痛苦也是你的一部分，如此等等。 你会把所有部分组合起来， 成为一个整体吗？ 你明白我的意思吗？
35:55 A: That is me, all these little parts put together. 35:55 甲： 这就是我，所有 这些小的部分组合起来。
35:58 K: Is you. 35:58 克： 就是你。
35:59 B: Yes. 35:59 乙： 是的。
36:00 K: Therefore what does that mean? You are all that. 36:00 克： 那这意味着什么？ 你就是那一切。
36:04 A: Yes 36:04 甲： 是的。
36:05 K: Wait, careful, don’t agree so quickly. You are not different from all that. Are you different from anger? No, of course not. So you are anger. Now I am going to look at myself, we are coming to that. I can see myself in the mirror when I shave, or comb my hair. The mirror reflects the face which is me. So can I look at myself as clearly as I see my face in the mirror? Have you listened? Listen, listen. Can you do it? Will you do it? Or will you find out how to look at yourself? 36:05 克： 等等，注意， 别急着同意。 你和那些没什么不同。 你不同于愤怒吗？ 当然不是。 所以你就是愤怒。 现在，我要看看我自己， 我们就要谈到这一点。 我刮胡子、梳头时， 可以在镜子里看到自己。 镜子反映出的脸就是我。 那么，我能像照镜子一样 清楚地看我自己吗？ 你听了吗？ 听着，听着。 你能这样看吗？ 你愿意这样看吗？ 或者说，你愿意弄清楚， 如何看你自己吗？
37:27 A: Is there something which will reflect myself? 37:27 甲： 有什么东西 能反映我自己吗？
37:33 K: Find out. You all agreed, or saw for yourselves anger is you, pleasure is you, being frightened is you. So you are a bundle of all this. Your background, your reactions, ‘Oh, I’ve had a terrible childhood but you have had a happy childhood’, all that is you. 37:33 克： 去弄明白。 你们都同意， 或者说你们都亲眼看到， 愤怒是你，快乐是你， 受到惊吓的也是你。 所以，你是这一切的集合体。 你的背景、你的反应， “哦，我童年真糟糕， 而你童年很快乐”， 这些都是你。
38:17 A: But why is it that I tend to separate that from myself? 38:17 甲： 但为什么我往往 把那些和我自己分开呢？
38:20 K: Now find out why. Listen, Suprabha, just listen before you answer too quickly. Why do you separate yourself from all that? Is it tradition? 38:20 克： 现在弄清为什么。 听着，苏普拉巴， 不要急着回答，先听听。 你为什么要把自己 和这些分开？ 是传统造成的吗？
38:41 A: Partly. 38:41 甲： 部分是。
38:43 K: Not partly. Don’t use the word ‘partly’. Is it tradition, is it habit, is it your culture, your religion? 38:43 克： 不是部分。 不要用“部分”这个词。 原因在于传统、习惯， 还是你的文化、你的宗教？
38:57 A: It is all that. 38:57 甲： 所有这些都是。
39:00 K: So what does that all mean? 39:00 克： 那所有这些意味着什么？
39:03 B: It is another programme, isn’t it? 39:03 乙： 那是另一个程序，是不是？
39:06 K: Yes, go on, what does all that mean? 39:06 克： 是的，继续说， 所有这些意味着什么？
39:12 A: All the experiences that I have... 39:12 甲： 我的所有经历……
39:13 K: You are just repeating. 39:13 克： 你只是在重复。
39:14 A: No, sir. 39:14 甲： 不，先生。
39:18 K: When you say, when I ask you why you separate, and I said to you, why do you separate when you know now – probably you have not thought about it before – that anger is you. That is a fact. Why do you separate it? Separate anger as though it was something different from you? I asked: is it tradition, is it habit, is it your particular culture, which means, go further, good and bad, the good fighting the bad and the bad fighting the good. Follow? Follow all that up. 39:18 克： 我问你为什么分开， 我对你说，你现在 知道愤怒就是你， ——你以前可能 没想过这个问题—— 你为什么要分开。 这是事实。 你为什么要把愤怒和你分开呢？ 把愤怒分开，好像 它和你是不同的东西？ 我问：是因为传统吗？ 是因为习惯吗？ 是因为你的那种文化吗？ 这意味着，进一步说， 好和坏，好的对抗坏的， 坏的对抗好的。 明白吗？ 跟上，深入进去。
40:23 A: These are things that we have been told since we were very young. 40:23 甲：从我们很小的时候起， 人家就一直告诉我们这些东西。
40:27 K: Yes, therefore when you separate you are being mechanical because you have been taught that, and you say all right. 40:27 克： 是的，因此， 你分开后，就变得机械呆板了， 因为你一直受到 这种教导，你说好的。
40:37 B: That is why he said we just repeated all this. 40:37 乙： 这就是为什么 他说我们只是重复这些东西。
40:42 K: Right? So have you understood? 40:42 克： 对吗？那么，你明白了吗？
40:48 C: I am not very clear about it. 40:48 丙： 我不是很清楚。
40:50 K: You are not clear. Let’s make it more clear so that you become clear. You look at that tree in full bloom, green leaves, rich. Look at it, look at it. Turn your face and look. The breeze is playing with it, it is almost dancing. How do you look at that tree? 40:50 克： 你不清楚。我们 说得更清楚些，这样你就明白了。 你看那棵树， 枝繁叶茂，绿意盎然。 看一看，看一看。 转过脸去看。 微风拂过树梢， 它仿佛在翩翩起舞。 你怎样看那棵树？
41:27 C: What do you mean how? 41:27 丙： 怎样是什么意思？
41:30 K: What do you see? 41:30 克： 你看到了什么？
41:33 C: Well, I see the tree. 41:33 丙： 嗯，我看到那棵树了。
41:37 K: Of course, you are not that tree. 41:37 克： 当然，你不是那棵树。
41:40 K: Now do you look at yourself that way? 41:40 克： 你现在是这样看自己的吗？
41:46 C: No. 41:46 丙： 不是。
41:47 K: No, naturally. Because you are not that tree. But when you look at yourself, how do you look at yourself, as though you were separate and looking? 41:47 克： 当然不是。 因为你不是那棵树。 但你看自己是怎样看的， 好像是分开的那样看的吗？
42:09 A: Yes, sir, because I like to think that I am not afraid, or the fear is not ‘me’. 42:09 甲： 是的，先生， 因为我喜欢认为我不害怕， 或者说恐惧不是“我”。
42:15 K: So, you have separated yourself from your fear, from your anxiety, from your..., etc. I asked you, why? Why has mankind, including you and me, why have we separated anger from me? 42:15 克： 所以，你已经 将自己与你的恐惧、 你的焦虑、 你的……等等分开了。 我问你，为什么？ 为什么人类，包括你我， 为什么我们 将愤怒与我分开了？
42:42 A: Because we have again been programmed to think that anger is bad. 42:42 甲： 因为我们又被编入了 认为愤怒是坏事的程序。
42:46 K: That’s all. Now can you not be programmed and look? 42:46 克： 就是这样。 那你能不受程序控制吗？ 这样看？
42:54 A: You mean keep away all that we have been conditioned to do? 42:54 甲： 你的意思是说， 不要做我们习惯做的那些事？
42:58 K: Of course. If I have been told from childhood to say you are separate from fear, therefore fight it, therefore conquer it, therefore be courageous, therefore avoid it and so on. So from childhood I have been conditioned, trained, educated to look at fear as though something apart from me. See what the result of that is, the consequences of this separation. Careful, don’t answer me. Look at it first. See what it does. I call myself a Hindu, if I do, and you are a Muslim. I have been programmed, you have been programmed to be a Muslim, Allah, and all the Koran, right? And I have been programmed in a different way, as a Jew and an Arab. 44:14 And we will kill each other. This is the consequence of this separation. So, when I call myself a Jew and you call yourself a person following the Islam tradition, we are separated from each other. Which means that separation brings conflict between us. I believe in Jihad, you know what that word means; holy war. I become a martyr in getting killed, it’s marvellous. And you have been programmed: don’t kill, suppose. Or you have been programmed as an Arab and I am Jew so we fight. See now, relate it to when you separate yourself from fear there is a conflict there. 42:58 克： 当然。 如果我从小人家就告诉我， 你不同于恐惧， 因此你要对抗恐惧， 征服恐惧， 要勇敢， 避免恐惧等等。 那么，我从小受到了 塑造、训练、教育， 把恐惧看成好像是 与我分开的。 看看这导致了什么结果， 这种划分的后果。 注意，别回答我。 先看看。 看看划分造成了什么后果。 我称自己为印度教徒，假设， 而你是穆斯林。 我受到了程序设定， 你给设定成了穆斯林、 信真主，读《古兰经》，对吗？ 而我被按照 另一种方式设定为 犹太人、阿拉伯人。 44:14 我们会自相残杀。 这就是这种分裂的后果。 所以，我要是自称犹太人， 而你自称 遵循伊斯兰传统的人， 那我们就分裂了。 这意味着那种分裂会使 我们发生冲突。 我相信Jihad， 你知道这个词是圣战的意思。 我壮烈牺牲了， 太了不起了。 而你接受的程序是： 不要杀人，假设。 或者你被设定为阿拉伯人， 而我是犹太人，于是我们就打仗。 现在，联系起来看， 你把自己跟恐惧分开， 就会产生冲突。
45:27 A: But why does that happen? 45:27 甲： 但为什么会这样呢？
45:29 K: I told you. 45:29 克： 我告诉你了。
45:31 A: But why do I want to separate myself? It seems quite deliberate that I want to separate myself from all this. 45:31 甲： 可我为什么 要把自己分开呢？ 我想把自己跟这些分开， 似乎是有意的。
45:37 K: Because then you could control it, then you can suppress it. Then you can run away from it, or transcend it. It’s a conflict. 45:37 克： 这样你就能控制、压制。 然后你可以逃避或者超越。 这是一种冲突。
45:50 A: But where does that get me? 45:50 甲： 可这又能给我 带来什么呢？
45:52 K: It has led you nowhere but you like that tradition; you follow it mechanically. 45:52 克： 这不起任何作用， 但你喜欢这种传统， 你机械地遵循这种传统。
46:01 A: Or on the other hand you reject it mechanically. 46:01 甲： 或者说，另一方面， 你又机械地拒绝这种传统。
46:05 K: And become lazy, lethargic, don’t care. So, have you learnt the consequences, the result of separating yourself from fear? 46:05 克： 变得懒惰、 昏昏欲睡、漠不关心。 那么，你了解到 将自己跟恐惧分开的后果了吗？
46:24 C: What if we were not aware we were doing it? 46:24 丙： 如果我们没有意识到 自己在这样做呢？
46:28 K: Just take ordinary fear, when you are aware of fear. 46:28 克： 拿普通的恐惧来说， 你意识到恐惧的时候。
46:32 C: Usually we are not. 46:32 丙： 通常我们不恐惧。
46:35 K: Oh yes, you are aware of fear – somebody comes and slaps you, naturally. 46:35 克： 哦，是的， 你自然会意识到的—— 要是有人打你耳光的话。
46:41 C: Yes, but there are many other feelings that we are not aware of. 46:41 丙： 是的，但还有很多 我们没有意识到的感受。
46:44 K: I am beginning with something that you can get hold of, not aware of everything. That will come very much later – not later, if you learn about it. Go on. So, do you actually see the consequences of separation? I, a Jew, my tradition goes back to four thousand years. I am the chosen people, etc. I worship the nameless Jehovah and so on. You, an Arab, Muslim, Islam, Allah, and we fight. Why? I have been programmed, you have been programmed. And we think we are separate. My god is separate from your god. Is that so? It is a fact. I am British, and you are Argentine. So I go to Falklands and kill you. And this we have been doing for thousands of years, right? 46:44 克： 我是从你可以 掌握的东西开始的， 开始不必什么都意识到。 那会在未来展开—— 不是未来，如果你去了解的话。 继续。 那么，你真的看到 分裂的后果了吗？ 我是犹太人，我的传统 可以上溯四千年。 我是上帝的选民，等等。 我崇拜无名的耶和华等等。 你，阿拉伯人， 穆斯林，伊斯兰教，真主， 我们打仗。 为什么？ 我被编程了，你也被编程了。 我们认为我们不同。 我的神和你的神不同。 是这样吗？ 这是事实。 我是英国人， 你是阿根廷人。 所以我去福克兰群岛杀死你。 几千年来我们一直这么干，对吗？
48:26 A: At one level I see the destruction that it has been causing, but at another level I still contribute to it. Why does that go on? 48:26 甲： 在一个层面上， 我看到了这种分裂造成的破坏， 但在另一层面， 我仍在推波助澜。 为什么会这样？
48:36 K: We will come to that presently. You are going ahead. 48:36 克： 这个我们稍后再谈。 你跑到前面去了。
48:40 A: No. 48:40 甲： 没有。
48:42 K: Yes. First see the consequences of separation in yourself, and actually what is going on in the world. I am British, you are French. Only water of twenty-two miles separates us. I am a British businessman, I manufacture better than hers and so on. The vanity, you follow? 48:42 克： 是的。 先看看你自己身上 分裂的后果， 再看看世界上实际发生了什么。 我是英国人，你是法国人。 我们只隔着二十二 英里的水域。 我是英国商人， 我的产品比她的好， 如此等等。 虚荣心，你明白吗？
49:20 A: That happens between two friends too. 49:20 甲： 朋友之间也会 发生这种情况。
49:22 K: That’s all I am saying. Go into it. First see what is happening in the world, then relate what is happening to yourself. Unless you have a criteria for the outer you can’t then judge, value, look. Careful. You are not listening! Look, the ideology of the Soviets, which is what they have made of Marx, Lenin, Stalin, and the whole democratic world. So ideologies separate. Learn. So they are fighting about ideologies, which is what? An idea society should be this and so you have the Politburo dominating the whole world – Russia. 49:22 克： 我说的就是这个。 深入探询一下。 先看看世界上在发生什么， 然后把发生的事情 与你自己联系起来。 没有对外界的一个标准， 你就无法判断、评价和审视。 注意！ 你没有听！ 听着，有苏联的意识形态， 他们根据马克思、 列宁、斯大林的理论建立的， 也有整个民主世界的意识形态。 所以意识形态会造成分裂。 学习。 于是他们为意识形态而战， 什么是意识形态？ 社会应该这样的观念， 于是就有了政治局 统治着整个世界——苏联。
50:42 A: Society should be what I think it should be. 50:42 甲： 社会应该和我的设想一样。
50:45 K: That’s it, exactly. Or what we all think. It is self-interest. So see the consequences of separation. 50:45 克： 正是如此。 或者说，我们所有人的设想。 这是自我利益。 所以，看看分裂的后果吧。
51:07 B: Sir, but what would stop all this going on? 51:07 乙： 先生，但怎样 才能阻止这些事情呢？
51:11 K: Sir, I am not trying to stop what is going on. First I must see what is going on in me because I am contributing to all this, by calling myself a Hindu, you are a Philippine, she is French and he is Argentine, she is a Muslim, you follow? 51:11 克： 先生，我并不想 阻止现在这些事情。 首先，我必须看清 我身上发生了什么， 因为我在为这一切 推波助澜， 我自称印度教徒， 你是菲律宾人， 她是法国人，他是阿根廷人， 她是穆斯林，你明白吗？
51:29 A: Why do I blame it on another person, I don’t seem to see that I am responsible for it too? 51:29 甲： 我为什么责怪别人， 我似乎没有看到 自己也有责任？
51:34 K: I don’t blame anybody. I say this is what humanity has done to each other. 51:34 克： 我不会责怪任何人。 我说这一切是人类彼此造成的。
51:45 A: No, sir, I am saying when I think that I am an Arab and that you are a Jew I put all the blame on you. 51:45 甲： 不，先生，我是说 我认为我是阿拉伯人， 而你是犹太人，那么我会把 所有责任都推到你身上。
51:51 K: Of course, for various reasons. 51:51 克： 当然，原因是多方面的。
51:54 A: I don’t see that perhaps I am responsible as well. 51:54 甲： 我没有看到 也许我也有责任。
51:57 K: I want that land which belonged to me about a hundred years ago, or two hundred or four hundred years ago, and the Israelis say, my dear chap, I used to own this land, all this enormous land, long before – four thousand years ago. So I am asking you to look at the result of separation in me: I am different from anger therefore I fight anger, control it, suppress it or transcend it. There is separation going on in me. And so I create the world in which I live. Clear? 51:57 克：我想要那片一百年前、 两百年前 或四百年前 属于我的土地， 而以色列人说，伙计， 我很久以前就拥有 这片土地， 这片广阔的土地了， 早在四千年前。 所以，我请你们看看 我身上分裂造成的结果： 我与愤怒不同， 因此我对抗愤怒、控制愤怒、 压制愤怒或超越愤怒。 在我身上就有分裂。 因此，我创造了 我生活的这个世界。 明白了吗？
52:56 A: Yes. 52:56 甲： 是的。
52:57 K: The society is created by me. 52:57 克： 社会是由我创造的。
53:00 A: By several me’s. 53:00 甲： 由几个我。
53:02 K: By you, by you, my grandfather, my great grandfather, we are all me first, and so society, we have created it. Unless there is a change here I can’t change there. You are not talking, you are just saying yes. 53:02 克： 由你，由你， 我的祖父，我的曾祖父， 我们都把“我”摆在前面， 所以社会，是我们创造的。 这里不改变， 我就改变不了那里。 你没说话， 你只是在说“是”。
53:28 A: But you said change again. 53:28 甲： 可你又说到改变。
53:30 K: Find out. 53:30 克： 去弄明白。
53:32 B: What do you mean by that? 53:32 乙： 这是什么意思？
53:34 K: Don’t ask. Not what I mean. Don’t ever say ‘what do I mean’. 53:34 克： 别问。不是什么意思。 永远不要说“我是什么意思”。
53:37 A: You used that word, sir. 53:37 甲： 你用了这个词，先生。
53:39 K: I am asking you: do you actually in your heart, in your brain, see the fact of what separation does? I get married, all the sex and all that. And I am ambitious, very, or aggressive, I want to get on, make money, have a good job, good car, I want to advance, and my wife also wants to do the same thing in a different direction. So we are already separated. So the consequence of that separation, I may enjoy my sex and all that, the comfort of a house, but we two are separate therefore we are at loggerheads with each other, right? 53:39 克： 我在问你： 在你心里，在你大脑里， 你真看到这个事实， 即分裂造成什么了吗？ 我结婚了， 有性生活等等。 我雄心勃勃，积极进取， 我想往上爬，赚钱， 想有份好工作， 有辆好车，我想发展， 我妻子也有同样的打算， 只是方向不同。 所以我们已经分道扬镳。 因此，这种分离的后果是， 我可以享受性生活等等， 享受舒适的房子， 但我们俩是分开的， 因而关系不和谐，对吗？
54:45 K: You understand? 54:45 克： 你明白吗？
54:46 C: Yes. 54:46 丙： 是的。
54:46 K: Don’t say yes. Do you actually see this as a fact? Or do you say yes, I quite agree with you, let’s get on? 54:46 克： 不要说“是”。 你真的视这个为事实吗？ 还是说 “是的， 我很同意你的观点，我们继续吧”？
55:01 D: Krishnaji, my problem is that I can see it happening outside, I can see it happening to the other people, but somehow I find it hard to see it in myself. 55:01 丁： 克里希纳吉，我的问题是， 我能在外在看到这种情况， 我能在其他人身上看到， 但不知怎的， 我发现很难在自己身上看到。
55:13 K: Why not? Don’t accept anything hard and remain hard, let it remain as though it was a hard thing. See what it does. See what is happening in the world first. Argentina and England. It is very simple. 55:13 克： 为什么看不到呢？ 不要接受任何固执的观点， 固执己见， 任由这种东西继续存在， 好像它很坚固似的。 看看分裂造成了什么。 先看看世界上发生了什么。 阿根廷和英国。 这很简单。
55:31 D: Yes, I can see that. That seems to be natural. 55:31 丁： 是的，我明白。 这似乎很自然。
55:34 K: See what is happening to you when you separate yourself from your fear, from your reactions, from what you do. It is exactly the same thing. 55:34 克： 当你把自己跟恐惧、 反应和你的所作所为 分开时， 看看你发生了什么。 这完全是一回事。
55:48 A: There are two conflicting movements going on. 55:48 甲： 有两种相互冲突的运动。
55:53 K: Conflicting movements of which you are. 55:53 克： 你就属于那种冲突运动。
56:03 A: That I am both those movements? 56:03 甲： 我同时是那两种运动？
56:05 K: Of course! 56:05 克： 当然！
56:12 A: Gosh! 56:12 甲： 天哪！
56:18 K: Do you see? I won’t move from this, if you don’t mind. As long as it is not actual in you, that you, when you separate you are bringing contradictory movements in yourself, and therefore conflict. I don’t see why it is so difficult for you to see this. 56:18 克： 你看到了吗？如果你不介意， 我就停在这儿，不往下说。 只要这不是你身上真实的情况， 即，你，你划分的时候， 就会给自己带来矛盾， 从而造成冲突。 我不明白为什么 看到这一点对你们这么难。
56:48 C: Are you saying that we do the same thing with our anger, for example, we want to push it away, we want to suppress it, and we do the same with someone from another country. We say, he is English so I want to... 56:48 丙： 你的意思是说，我们对 愤怒的做法是一样的，比如， 我们想推开愤怒， 我们想压制愤怒， 我们对另一个 国家的人也是这样。 我们说，他是英国人， 所以我想
57:01 K: Separation, you understand? That is division. I am British and you are French. I have had a tremendous Empire, so have you. I am very proud of my tradition, so are you. We both worship a symbol, Christian, but we are willing to kill each other, economically, etc., or for various territorial purposes. England had a great interest in France at one time. 57:01 克： 分开，你明白吗？ 这就是分裂。 我是英国人，你是法国人。 我有一个庞大帝国， 你也有。 我为我的传统自豪， 你也一样。 我们都崇拜一个基督教符号， 但我们不惜自相残杀， 在经济等方面， 或者出于各种领土目的。 英国一度对法国有着 浓厚的兴趣。
57:51 A: Why do I think I am better than everybody else? 57:51 甲： 为什么我觉得 我比别人强？
57:55 K: It is part of your vanity. Part of your aggression, part of your tradition. The other day on television, did you see, ‘German reliability and the British know-how’. You understand? As though the Germans didn’t know the know-how, but we British only know the know-how, they are very reliable but we are... you follow? The sense of separation, the sense of vanity. The Germans know as much of the know-how as you and I do otherwise they couldn’t have put a car together, and the Americans also say, we have the know-how, we are better. 57:55 克： 这是你虚荣心的一部分。 是你好斗心理的一部分， 是你的传统的一部分。 前几天在电视上， 你们看过吗， “德国的可靠性， 英国的技术”。 你明白吗？ 好像德国人不懂技术， 只有我们英国人懂技术似的， 他们非常可靠， 而我们……你明白吗？ 分离感，虚荣感。 德国人和你我一样懂技术， 否则他们不可能组装汽车， 美国人也说， 我们有技术，我们更先进。
58:54 A: But where does that come from? 58:54 甲： 但这种划分来自哪里？
58:56 K: Find out. 58:56 克： 弄个明白吧。
58:58 A: Is it there in us from the minute we are born? 58:58 甲： 这是我们与生俱来的吗？
59:01 K: A little bit probably. 59:01 克： 大概有一点。
59:04 A: You mean genetically? 59:04 甲： 你是说基因方面吗？
59:07 K: My family is better than yours. 59:07 克： 我的家族比你的优秀。
59:11 A: When I am a baby I don’t think that. 59:11 甲： 我在幼儿时期不想这些。
59:13 K: Not that, but it begins slowly. 59:13 克： 是不想，那是慢慢开始的。
59:16 A: Over the years. 59:16 甲： 经过许多年。
59:19 K: The tradition, you are British, behave British, be proud of your tradition, you had a tremendous empire, now you are reduced but you are still… remember. 59:19 克： 传统，你是英国人， 要像个英国人， 要为你的传统自豪， 你们有过一个庞大的帝国， 现在你们被削弱了， 但你们仍然……记得过去。
59:37 C: But even when you are a child and your parents tell you, because when you are young everyone says how wonderful he is, look he is doing this and that, and then you become proud of it. 59:37 丙： 但即使在你小时候， 你的父母告诉你， 因为你还小时， 每个人都说他多棒啊， 看他正在做这做那， 然后你就会感到自豪。
59:48 K: So are you learning from this discussion, from this dialogue, are you learning, or just memorising? See the difference? If you say, ‘Oh yes, I have learnt but I don’t want to change. It is all right to carry on as I am. I like conflict. I like this struggle’. Then carry on. That’s what the world is doing anyhow. And you may be frightened to stand alone. So, sir, please I am asking you most respectfully, learn from all this. Don’t fall back and say it is my old tradition. Be aware of all this. 59:48 克： 那么，你是在 这个讨论中， 在这个对话中学习吗？ 你是在学习， 还是只是在记忆？ 看到区别了吗？ 如果你说：“哦，是的， 我学到了，但我不想改变。 我现在这样就可以了。 我喜欢冲突。 我喜欢这种斗争”。 那就继续吧。 无论如何， 世人正在这样干。 你也许害怕独处。 所以，先生， 我非常恭敬地请你们 从这些东西当中学到些什么。 不要退缩， 说这是我的老传统。 要意识到这些东西。
1:01:17 A: So we looked at what learning was not, but what is this movement of learning? 1:01:17 甲： 那么，我们 研究了什么不是学习， 但这种学习的运动 是怎么回事？
1:01:25 K: Why do you ask me? 1:01:25 克： 你为什么问我？
1:01:26 A: Because I don’t know. 1:01:26 甲： 因为我不知道。
1:01:28 K: We have spent an hour and you are still asking what is learning and what is memory? 1:01:28 克： 我们谈了一个小时， 你还在问 什么是学习， 什么是记忆？
1:01:35 A: No, I said we spoke of what learning is not, that it is not memory, that it is not the accumulation of knowledge. 1:01:35 甲： 不，我说的是 我们谈了学习不是什么， 谈到学习不是记忆， 不是知识的积累。
1:01:43 K: Therefore find out what it is. 1:01:43 克： 那就弄清学习是什么。
1:01:45 A: I don’t know. 1:01:45 甲： 我不知道。
1:01:47 K: You will, move. Don’t say I don’t know, and remain there. I told you, Goya, after painting for I don’t know, until he was ninety-two, or ninety, he said, ‘I am still learning’. It is a marvellous statement if you go into it. SUBTITLE TEXT COPYRIGHT 1985 KRISHNAMURTI FOUNDATION TRUST LTD 1:01:47 克： 你会知道的，加把劲儿。 不要说我不知道，然后就呆在那里。 我告诉过你，戈雅， 我不知道他画了多久， 他直到九十二岁还是九十岁时， 还说，“我仍在学习”。 如果你去探询一下， 这句话真是妙不可言。
🢁