Krishnamurti Subtitles

BR85DS1.3 - 比较难道不是一种暴力吗？ home
与四个学生的第三次讨论
布洛克伍德，英国
1985年6月18日


0:35 K: Last time we met I think we were talking about, as he pointed out, what is our relationship to what is happening in the world – right, sir? You know what is happening in the world – terror, terrorism, and those who are terrorised; the purpose of terrorism is to terrorise. And they are hijacking, killing people, innocent people, or any type – it doesn’t matter. And there is a war going on in Beirut and there is Bangladesh, you know all about it. And you know what is happening in South America – the Falkland war. And there are people celebrating the Falkland war here and mourning in Argentina – right? 1:56 And also there is this Star Wars, you have heard about it? Tremendous scheme. So that – I won’t go into the details of it – so that the atom bomb and the neutron bomb will be obsolete. Right? Seeing all this, not only intellectually but actually, as a fact, what is your relationship to all that? To national divisions, to economic, to racial, to all that has happened in Brussels and so on, what is your attitude to all this, how do you react to all this? 0:35 克：上次我们见面时， 我想我们正在谈论， 正如他所指出的， 我们与世界上正在发生的 事情是什么关系 ——对吗，先生？ 你知道世界上发生了什么事 ——恐怖、恐怖主义、 那些被恐吓的人； 恐怖主义目的就是恐吓。 他们劫机、杀人、滥杀无辜， 不管你是什么人。 贝鲁特在打仗， 孟加拉国都在打仗， 你们都知道。 你们也知道南美 正在发生什么——福克兰战争。 有人在这里庆祝福克兰战争， 有人在阿根廷哀悼，对吗？ 1:56 还有 "星球大战"，你们听说过吗？ 庞大的计划。 这样——我就不细说了—— 就可以淘汰原子弹、中子弹了。 对不对？ 看到这些， 不仅在思想上， 而且在事实上，作为一个事实， 你与这些的关系是什么？ 民族分裂、经济分裂、种族分裂、 还有布鲁塞尔所发生的事件 （注：海瑟尔惨案）等等， 你对此是何态度， 你对此作何反应？
3:04 A: Sir, when one reads about all this in the newspapers, or hears about it, or sees it, one seems to get stuck with the question of how does one respond? 3:04 甲： 先生，一个人在报纸上读到 或听到、看到这些消息， 似乎会被你是什么反应 这个问题卡住？
3:14 K: I am asking you. How do you respond to all this? What is your reaction, what is your feeling, what is your instinctive or immediate response to it? 3:14 克：我在问你。 你对这些作何反应？ 你有什么反应， 你有什么感觉， 你有什么本能、直接的反应？
3:31 D: I think my response, at least sometimes, is thinking I want to keep out of it as much as I can, you know, try to keep away. 3:31 丁： 我想我的反应是， 至少有时候，就是想 我要尽可能地置身事外， 你知道的，尽量远离。
3:43 K: All right, if you try to keep out of it, can you? 3:43 克：好吧，你想 尽量置身事外，你能做到吗？
3:49 D: I don’t know. 3:49 丁： 我不知道。
3:50 A: Do you mean not contribute to the mess? 3:50 甲： 你的意思是不添乱吗？
3:54 D: Well, I mean I try to make no difference between where people come from. 3:54 丁： 嗯，我是说我尽量不区分 人们来自哪里。
4:02 K: That is fairly simple. 4:02 克：这很简单。
4:05 D: Yes. But from there I don’t know what else to do. 4:05 丁： 是的。但我不知道还能做什么。
4:12 K: It is recognised and it is fairly easy to do that. But at a deeper level, if there is such a deeper level, what do you feel about all this? The wars, the antagonisms, the economic divisions, super powers and the terrible things that are happening – hijacking, people who have nothing to do with anything being bombed, killed – in Israel the bombs are thrown on buses, children, women – you follow? How do you... 4:12 克： 这是得到认可的， 而且很容易做到。 但从更深层次来说， 如果有更深层次的话， 你对这些有何感想？ 战争、对抗、经济分裂、超级大国、 正在发生的可怕事件——劫机、 炸死无辜的人 ——以色列，汽车炸弹， 妇女、儿童 ——你明白吗？你如何
5:01 A: I often think, what is it that makes man do all that? 5:01 甲： 我常常在想， 是什么让人做出这些事的？
5:04 K: No. You are the man, and also you are the woman. 5:04 克：不。你就是这个人， 男人也好，女人也好。
5:07 A: Yes, it is part of me too. 5:07 甲： 是的，这也是我的一部分。
5:08 K: What is your relationship to it? You are not answering my question. 5:08 克：你与其是什么关系？ 你没有回答我的问题。
5:12 B: Well, sir, I get the sense that there is something not quite right about it and, you know, I ask myself... 5:12 乙： 嗯，先生， 我感觉有些地方不太对劲， 你知道，我问我自己
5:22 K: What do you mean ‘not quite right about it’? 5:22 克：“不太对劲”是什么意思？
5:24 B: Sir I mean, not right, this killing, this bombing, the war going on. 5:24 乙： 先生，我的意思是， 这种杀戮、爆炸、 继续打仗是不对的。
5:30 K: Yes, proceed, tell me. 5:30 克：是的，接着说，告诉我。
5:34 B: I don’t feel it is right and yet I am not sure if there is something I can do about it because nobody seems to be able to stop it. 5:34 乙： 我觉得这样做不对， 但我不确定 我能做些什么， 因为似乎没人能阻止这种情况。
5:50 K: Do you want to stop it? Do you want to indulge in violence? 5:50 克：你想阻止吗？ 你想纵容暴力吗？
5:59 B: No, sir. 5:59 乙： 不，先生。
6:02 K: Right? Then you are not a violent human being. Or are you limiting violence to terrorism, killing; limit it there, limit it so that it is something – right? But violence is much deeper than merely, not that it is right to kill another human being, but do you feel violent? If we are really honest. 6:02 克： 对吗？那你就不是 一个有暴力倾向的人。 或者你理解的暴力仅限于 恐怖主义、杀戮； 局限于那个范畴， 局限于某些事情——对吗？ 但暴力比单纯的杀戮 要深刻得多， 并不是说杀人是对的， 而是如果我们真的诚实， 你感觉到暴力了吗？
6:43 A: Sir, this is where I see your contradiction because I... 6:43 甲： 先生，这就是 我看到你矛盾的地方，因为我
6:46 K: Contradiction between what? 6:46 克：什么地方矛盾呢？
6:47 A: At one level I do not want this violence to continue but in my own life I or any individual seems to continue with this. 6:47 甲： 在某种程度上， 我不希望这种暴力继续下去， 但在我自己的生活中， 我或任何个人 似乎都在继续这样做。
6:57 K: So do you take the responsibility, you, as a human being living on this earth, do you take the responsibility and say, ‘I won’t be violent’? Or do you indulge sometimes in violence, sometimes not – you follow what I am talking about? Which is it? 6:57 克：那么，你， 作为生活 在这个世界上的人， 你会承担责任， 说，“我要放弃暴力”吗？ 还是说你有时沉溺于、 有时不沉溺于暴力 ——你明白我在说什么吗？ 你是哪种情况呢？
7:21 C: It seems to be the only thing we can do. 7:21 丙： 我们似乎只能这么做。
7:24 K: Will you do it? Not ‘it seems the only thing we can do’, but will you do it? Will you say, ‘I won’t be violent’ and go into the question of what is violence; how to be free of it and so on; will you undertake that journey? Or just say, ‘I don’t want a part of all this, I want to keep out’. But how can you keep out? When you go back to Argentina, you are going to take an aeroplane and you are going to pay so much and that goes part of it to armaments, part of it to… all the rest of it. You can’t keep out. 7:24 克：你愿意这样做吗？不是 “我们似乎只能这么做”， 而是你愿意这样做吗？ 你会说“我要放弃暴力”， 然后去探讨什么是暴力、 如何摆脱暴力等等问题； 你会踏上这个旅程吗？ 还是只是说“我不想参与这些， 我想置身事外”。 但你怎么能置身事外呢？ 你回阿根廷要坐飞机， 你要支付那么多的费用， 其中一部分会用于军备， 一部分会用于……如此等等。 你无法置身事外。
8:12 A: But then I get stuck with the question of how do I not keep out? 8:12 甲： 但如何才能不置身事外？ 我让这个问题卡住了。
8:17 K: No, first, I will tell you. I am asking not how to keep out, that is a wrong question, you can’t keep out. 8:17 克：不，首先，我要告诉你。 我问的不是如何置身事外， 那是个错误的问题， 你无法置身事外。
8:23 A: But I am saying that is the immediate reaction that one has. How do I not do this. 8:23 甲： 但我说的是， 这是人的直接反应。 我怎样才能不这样做。
8:28 D: Well, you can’t not do it. 8:28 丁： 嗯，你无法不这样做。
8:31 K: No, I am asking you, will you take the responsibility, seriously, passionately, and say, ‘let’s go into the question of violence and I will see I will not be violent’, and therefore you will not elect a violent leader, a politician – that is what has happened the world over. Therefore I am asking you as human beings, will you stop your own violence? And what is violence? Come with me a little bit, begin to discuss. What do you consider violence? 8:31 克：不，我是在问你， 你会不会严肃认真、 饱含激情地承担起责任，说， “我们讨论一下暴力问题， 我想确保自己我不再暴力了”， 这样，你们就不会像全世界 现在这样选举一个 使用暴力的领导人、政治家。 因此，我问你，作为人类， 你们愿意结束你自己的暴力倾向吗？ 什么是暴力？ 跟上我一点，开始讨论。 你们认为什么是暴力？
9:38 B: When you hurt another person? 9:38 乙： 伤害他人？
9:41 K: Begin at the lowest level or the highest level. Begin somewhere: You hit me. You rob me. You murder me. You do all kinds of things to me. That is only part of violence, isn’t it? Now investigate, go into it, go on, explore together, don’t keep silent. 9:41 克：从最底层或最高层开始。 从某个地方开始：你打我。 你抢劫我。 你谋杀我。 你对我做各种事。 这只是暴力的一部分， 不是吗？ 现在，调查，深入，继续， 一起探索，不要沉默。
10:07 A: When I feel angry with you. 10:07 甲： 我对你生气。
10:08 K: That’s right, when you feel angry. Go on. 10:08 克：没错， 生气的时候。继续说
10:11 A: When I feel hurt. 10:11 甲： 我感到受伤。
10:13 K: Yes. Not only when you don’t want to be hurt, but also when you want to hurt others. 10:13 克：是的。不仅不想受到伤害， 而且你想伤害别人时。
10:20 A: Yes, that is included. 10:20 甲： 是的，包括这种情况。
10:22 K: So go on. 10:22 克：那就继续说。
10:24 C: When you want to protect yourself.. 10:24 丙： 想保护自己
10:26 K: Partly. 10:26 克：部分。
10:27 C:...if there are countries at war. 10:27 丙：……假如国家开战了。
10:32 D: And jealousness seems to be violence. 10:32 丁： 嫉妒似乎也是一种暴力。
10:34 B: And competition. 10:34 乙： 还有竞争。
10:37 K: You go on talking, tell me, don’t ask me. What do you think is violence? And will you undertake the responsibility to see that you, as a human being on this earth, will not be violent? What does it mean? And also what does it mean to be non-violent? Right? You understand? That’s what they are talking about: Tolstoy and Gandhi, and India has been preaching non-violence. 10:37 克：你们继续说， 告诉我，别问我。 你认为什么是暴力？ 你是否愿意承担责任，确保你 作为生活在地球上的一个人， 不再暴力？ 这意味着什么？ 非暴力又意味着什么？ 对不对？ 你明白吗？ 这就是他们所说的： 托尔斯泰和甘地， 印度一直在宣扬非暴力。
11:19 A: But that seems to be non-violence in one particular sphere. 11:19 甲： 但这似乎 是一个特定领域的非暴力。
11:23 K: Go into it. Don’t say, ‘that seems’. Go into it, find out if you are violent. And then enquire what is violence. You said, anger, so you will not be angry. 11:23 克：深入进去。 不要说“好像是”。 探究一下， 看看你是否有暴力倾向。 然后问问什么是暴力。 你说过，生气， 所以你不想再生气。
11:45 D: But Krishnaji, can you say that? It seems even a violent statement because you are angry, and then you are trying to contradict something that is there. 11:45 丁： 但是克里希那吉， 你能这么说吗？ 这似乎甚至是一种粗暴的说法， 因为你很生气， 然后你又试图 反驳一些存在的东西。
11:56 K: I understand that. But I am asking you: will you undertake not to be violent? Therefore enquire what is violence. 11:56 克：我明白。但我要问你： 你能保证不再暴力吗？ 因此，请问什么是暴力？
12:14 A: Sir, I find myself reluctant to say that I will not be violent. 12:14 甲： 先生，我发现自己 不愿意说我不会再暴力了。
12:18 K: That is not the point. You just now said, careful, that you living on this earth as a human being, see all this terrible violence since human beings lived on this earth, and it is getting worse and worse, more dangerous. I asked you what is your reaction, what is your responsibility to that. He said ‘I would withdraw’. I say you can’t withdraw. When you take an aeroplane, or buy a stamp, or anything, food, you are helping the whole system of violence to continue. Clear? If that is clear then what is your part in this? Then you must ask: what is violence? Before you say I can, I cannot. Now what do you consider violence? 12:18 克：这不是关键。 你刚才说，注意， 你作为一个人类 生活在这个地球上， 看到了人类生活在 这个地球上以来 所有这些可怕的暴力， 而且越来越严重， 越来越危险。 我问你对此有何反应， 有何责任。 他说，“我会脱离社会”。 我说你无法脱离社会。 你坐飞机、买邮票、 食物什么的， 你就是在帮助 整个暴力系统运行。 清楚了吗？ 如果这个清楚了， 那么你在其中扮演了什么角色？ 那么你必须问： 什么是暴力？ 在你说我能，我不能之前。 现在你认为什么是暴力？
13:39 C: Often we are violent when we have a quick reaction that we don’t control. We react immediately and we don’t see it. 13:39 丙：通常，在不加控制、 快速反应的情况下， 我们表现得暴力。我们一下子就 做出反应，却没有察觉。
13:47 K: No, begin simply. Begin with the physical level. The reaction is also part physical. Begin. There is a physical violence, isn’t there? Hitting somebody, throwing a bomb at somebody, throwing another under the train, or throwing a bomb at forty thousand feet over a town. Those are all physical actions. Do you want to contribute to that, or you say no, I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to kill another human being for whatever reason. At present I don’t want to kill. I have thought a great deal about it, and I have gone into it, physically I won’t kill. I don’t know what I will do later, I mean next year, but so far I am very clear. Would you say that? 13:47 克：不，从简单的开始。 从物质层面开始。 反应的一部分也是有形的。 开始吧。 有有形的暴力，不是吗？ 打人，向人扔炸弹， 把另一个人推到火车下面， 或者从城镇上空 四万英尺投下炸弹。 这些都是有形的行为。 你是想推波助澜， 还是说“不，我不想这么做”？ 无论出于什么原因， 我都不想杀人。 现在我不想杀人。 我经过深思熟虑， 我不会用武力杀人。 我不知道我以后会怎么做， 我是说明年， 但到目前为止我非常清楚。 你会这么说吗？
14:59 B: I think we can say that. 14:59 乙： 我想我们可以这么说。
15:00 K: No, not can, will you do it? 15:00 克：不，不是可以， 你愿意这么做吗？
15:03 B: Yes, sir, but when it comes to something about anger, it seems it is quite a different matter. 15:03 乙： 是的，先生， 但说到愤怒， 似乎又是另一回事了。
15:14 K: Face the different matter. It is no good talking about not being violent. Talking about, theorising, discussing, like they are doing now. Will you as a human being physically not hurt another? 15:14 克：正视这个不同的问题。 谈论不再暴力是没有用的。 谈论、讨论、创建理论， 就像他们现在那样。 作为一个人， 你能不伤害他人身体吗？
15:36 C: Are you saying that each moment we should watch it? 15:36 丙： 你是说我们 每时每刻都要留心观察吗？
15:38 K: No, I am asking you this. Don’t translate into something else. 15:38 克：不，我是在问你这个。 不要翻译成别的东西。
15:46 A: Yes, sir, I can say that for now. 15:46 甲： 是的，先生， 我暂时可以这么说。
15:50 K: You will not hurt another, physically. 15:50 克：你不会伤害他人的身体。
15:55 D: Even if you are attacked? 15:55 丁： 即使受到攻击？
15:57 K: Wait, that is a supposition. 15:57 克：等等，这只是一种假设。
16:00 D: Yes, I know. 16:00 丁： 是的，我知道。
16:02 K: If I have been all my life non-violent, I may be wrong but I don’t know what I will do. If I am attacked I don’t know what I am going to do. But my brain has been thinking about this, living it and perhaps it will act that way, or it may not. So leave the future alone. That’s a trick to escape from this fact. So physical violence. Are you psychologically violent? 16:02 克：如果我一辈子 都是非暴力的， 我可能是错的， 但我不知道我会怎么做。 如果我受到攻击， 我不知道我会怎么做。 但我的大脑 一直在思考这个问题， 一直在脑子里体验， 它也许会那样做，也许不会。 所以，把未来放一边。 这是逃避现实的伎俩。 有形的暴力。 你有心理暴力吗？
16:52 A: When I compete with fifty other students in an examination I am... 16:52 甲： 我参加考试，与 五十名学生竞争，这时我
16:57 K: Begin carefully. Step by step. No lady, don’t jump to something. 16:57 克：开始要仔细些。 一步一步来。 女士，不要下结论。
17:04 A: I am not jumping, sir, I am saying when I took an examination in Rishi Valley, I was competing with thousands of other students. 17:04 甲： 我不是下结论，先生，我是说 我在瑞希山谷参加考试时， 与成千上万学生竞争。
17:13 K: So, do you say psychological competition is part of violence? 17:13 克：那么，你说 心理竞争是暴力的一部分吗？
17:23 A: Yes. 17:23 甲： 是的。
17:27 K: She is uncertain. 17:27 克：她不确定。
17:29 C: Yes, I think it is. 17:29 丙： 是的，我认为是。
17:32 K: Competition, not examination, but any form of competition. So will you not compete? I am better than him. 17:32 克：竞争，不是考试， 而是任何形式的竞争。 那你能不竞争吗？ 我比他强。
17:46 C: Does that mean not taking exams, for example? 17:46 丙： 那意思是， 比如说，不参加考试吗？
17:50 K: Just a minute, first get the principle of it, the feeling of it. Not to compete, because that is part of violence. Would you agree to that? You have said that. So will you eliminate, or look at it and see the nature of competition, the wholeness of competition, you know, the entirety of competition? 17:50 克：稍等，先了解其原理和感觉。 不去竞争， 因为那是暴力的一部分。 你同意吗？ 你已经说过了。 那么，你会消除竞争， 或者说审视竞争， 看清竞争的本质， 竞争的全貌， 你知道，看清竞争的全部吗？
18:26 A: All right, let’s begin. 18:26 甲： 好的，我们开始吧。
18:28 D: Let’s look at it now. 18:28 丁： 我们现在就来看看。
18:29 K: Begin. Go on. Competition, from childhood, your mother says you are better than your brother, more beautiful, you have got much better outlook and so on. So will you stop comparing? Because comparing is a form of competition, not between two materials, between this cloth and that cloth, between this woollen trouser and your corduroy trousers and so on. Deeply, it is a much deeper problem. Can you live your life without any comparison? Except you compare with two cars, etc. 18:29 克： 开始。继续。 竞争，从小到大， 你妈妈都说你比你哥哥强， 比你哥哥漂亮， 你的容貌比你哥哥好，等等。 那么你能停止比较吗？ 因为比较是一种竞争， 不是指比较两种材料， 不是比较这块布和那块布， 也不是比较这条羊毛裤子 和你的灯芯绒裤子，等等。 从根本上说， 这是一个更深层次的问题。 你能没有比较地生活吗？ 除了比较两辆汽车，等等。
19:40 A: But then what does it mean to live without comparison? 19:40 甲： 但是，没有 比较的生活意味着什么？
19:43 K: Find out. Don’t ask me. 19:43 克： 去弄个明白。别问我。
19:47 A: I am just throwing the question. 19:47 甲： 我只是抛出问题。
19:50 A: But it seems that’s where I get stuck. 19:50 甲： 但我似乎就卡在这儿了。
19:54 K: Don’t get stuck. Move. 19:54 克：不要卡住。动起来。
19:55 A: I keep thinking what if I gave up comparison, what if I stopped competing, what if all that. 19:55 甲： 我一直在想， 我放弃比较会怎样， 我不再竞争会怎样， 这些都没有了会怎样？
20:02 K: Then that means, if I do this I will get that. 20:02 克：那就是说， 我做这个，就会得到那个。
20:07 D: I just get stuck with the question before: how do I get rid of competition, how do I not compare? 20:07 丁： 我只是 被之前的问题困住了： 我怎样才能摆脱竞争， 怎样才能不攀比？
20:16 K: Careful. The moment you say if I do this, will I get that? Then you are functioning between reward and punishment. 20:16 克： 注意。你一说我做这个， 会得到那个吗？ 那你就受到了奖惩的驱使。
20:27 D: That is the way we have functioned for many years. 20:27 丁： 这就是我们 多年来的运作方式。
20:30 K: Yes, sir, therefore pursue it further. Therefore would you say: understand the depth of comparison, the full movement of comparison, and say sorry, I’ve left it, I understand it therefore I won’t do it. You know very well fire burns therefore you won’t touch fire. 20:30 克：是的，先生， 因此要进一步追问。 因此，你会不会说： 我先来理解比较的深层含义， 理解比较的全部运动， 然后说对不起， 我摆脱这种心理了， 我明白了，所以我不想比了。 你很清楚火会灼伤人， 所以你不会去碰火。
21:00 A: But we don’t see it in the same light. 21:00 甲： 但我们视角不同。
21:02 K: That’s the whole point. 21:02 克： 这就是关键。
21:04 D: I don’t understand it, I don’t understand the whole problem. 21:04 丁： 我不明白， 整个问题我都不明白。
21:08 K: So look at it carefully, don’t come to any conclusion. Go on. You have never thought about this, that’s the difficulty – or looked at it. Right, let’s begin. We agreed, all of you I think, that comparison is a form of violence. But you have to compare; between two pieces of cloth, between two poems, between two carpets and so on. Better washing machine than the old one. You have to compare. But psychologically will you go on? 21:08 克：那就仔细看看， 不要下结论。 继续。 你们从未想过这个问题， 这就是难点 ——从未审视过这个。 好，我们开始吧。 我想你们都同意， 比较是一种暴力。 但你必须比较； 比较两块布、 两首诗、 两块地毯，等等。 这台洗衣机 比那台旧的好。 你必须比较。 但在心理上， 你会继续比较吗？
22:15 A: What does it mean to psychologically compare? 22:15 甲： 心理上的比较是什么意思？
22:18 K: It means I am better than you. 22:18 克：意思是我比你强。
22:23 A: When I make a judgement about somebody, is that comparison? 22:23 甲： 我评判某个人， 那是比较吗？
22:27 K: No. I am not talking about judgement. You see how you function? 22:27 克：不，我说的不是评判。 你看你是怎么运作的？
22:32 A: No, I am asking, sir. 22:32 甲： 不，我是在问，先生。
22:33 K: I know. I am asking you a question and then you counter that by another question. 22:33 克：我知道。 我问你一个问题， 然后你就反问另一个问题。
22:40 A: No, I am not asking you to answer this question. 22:40 甲： 不，我不是 要你回答这个问题。
22:43 K: Don’t ask that question before you have answered my question. I am not being rude. So will you enquire, look, into the whole nature of comparison by beginning psychologically: why do you compare? Why do you compare yourself with her, or with him, or with the whole school, or with your brother, why? 22:43 克：回答我的问题之前， 不要问这个问题。 我不是无礼。 那么，你能不能 从心理角度出发， 探究一下整个比较的本质： 你为什么要比较？ 你为什么要跟她比、 跟他、跟整个学校比、 跟你哥哥比，为什么？
23:25 C: We have been taught to compare. 23:25 丙： 我们已经学会了比较。
23:30 K: So, you are being educated to compare. 23:30 克：所以，你受到的 教育就是比较。
23:33 C: Yes. 23:33 丙： 是的。
23:35 K: So your reactions, go on further into it, are mechanical. Like a computer that has been programmed – you know how? A little bit, like me – you repeat. 23:35 克：所以你的反应， 进一步探究， 就是机械的。 就像一台输入程序的电脑 ——你知道怎么编程吗？ 一点点，就像我一样 ——你会重复。
24:11 C: The comparison comes just by itself. 24:11 丙： 这种比较就是自己出现的。
24:13 K: Of course. You repeat. Do you see how your brain has become mechanical? 24:13 克： 当然。 你会重复。 你看到你的大脑 是如何变得机械的吗？
24:30 A: Repeating patterns. 24:30 甲： 重复各种模式。
24:34 K: I’m taking one thing, stick to one thing at a time. You told me that, you told K rather, that comparison is a form of violence. You all agreed. Don’t go back on it. And I said it is necessary to compare between that lamp and that lamp. That camera and another cheaper camera. 24:34 克：我在谈一件事， 一次盯住一件事。 你们告诉我， 你们告诉 K， 比较是一种暴力。 你们都同意了。 不要反悔。 我说有必要比较 这盏灯和那盏灯。 那台照相机和 另一台更便宜的照相机
25:10 A: Yes, it is. 25:10 甲： 是的。
25:12 K: That is necessary. But psychologically, inwardly, why do you compare? And he says, and she said, ‘It is a reaction, a natural reaction’. I said, is it natural, or is it cultivated? Natural being, as a baby I grow up, that is natural. 25:12 克：这是必要的。 但在心理上，在内心里， 你为什么要比较呢？ 他说，她也说， “这是一种反应， 一种自然反应”。 我说，这是自然反应， 还是培养出来的？ 自然指的是，我从婴儿长大， 这是自然。
25:42 C: That is more something we have been taught to do, comparison. 25:42 丙： 这更像是我们 受到教育才这样做的，比较。
25:47 K: Between baby and you? 25:47 克：比较你和婴儿？
25:49 C: No. 25:49 丙： 不是。
25:50 K: You have not listened! 25:50 克：你没听！
25:51 C: We have learned to compare, we have been taught at school and everything. 25:51 丙： 我们学会了比较， 学校和其他地方都教过我们。
25:55 K: Yes, you are educated to compare. We said that. Which means your brain has been conditioned, educated, trained to compare. From that we said a computer, which is programmed will repeat this. It may invent its own repetition further, but it is repetition. Now you are also trained to compare; I am better than you, I am taller than you, I am more clever, I’ll get a better job and so on. 26:35 So psychologically I’m much more subtle than that. We are trained, educated, programmed to repeat. Now will you stop that? I mean will you see the reality of it? That is, how your brain has become mechanical, routine? It is repeating, saying the same thing over and over again: ‘I can’t do it, I must do it, it is too difficult for me, I don’t understand, tell me all about it’. 25:55 克：是的，你们接受过比较教育。 我们说过了。 也就是说， 你的大脑受到了比较的 塑造、教育、训练。 由此，我们说， 编程的电脑会重复这种事。 它可能会进一步发明自己的 重复活动，但那还是重复。 现在，你也受到了比较的训练： 我比你强，我比你高， 我更聪明， 我会得到更好的工作等等。 26:35 所以，在心理上， 我更有心计。 我们受过训练、教育， 被程序设定，于是重复那些活动。 现在你能停止这种行为吗？ 我是说，你能看清现实吗？ 也就是说，看看你的大脑 是如何变得机械刻板的？ 它在重复，反反复复讲同一件事， “我做不到，我必须做到， 这对我来说太难了， 我不明白，把这些都告诉我吧”。
27:17 D: That is what my brain seems to do, Krishnaji. 27:17 丁： 我的大脑似乎 也是这么想的，克里希那吉。
27:22 A: But that is exactly what is happening, sir. 27:22 甲： 但事实正是如此，先生。
27:24 K: I know that. That is why I am repeating it, I am telling you. Wait, sir. Look at your brain, see how your brain is working. 27:24 克：我知道。所以 我才要重复一遍，告诉你。 等等，先生。看看你的大脑， 看看你的大脑是怎么工作的。
27:38 B: Yes, sir. Can I say something? 27:38 乙： 是的，先生。 我能说几句吗？
27:41 K: Oh yes, you can say anything you like! 27:41 克：哦，是的，你想说什么都行！
27:43 B: Well, we said that we were educated to compare. We agree that we are educated to compare. 27:43 乙： 嗯，我们说过， 我们受到了这种比较的教育。 我们同意受到了 这种比较的教育。
27:52 K: Conditioned. 27:52 克： 塑造。
27:54 B: Yes, but can we educate ourselves not to compare? 27:54 乙： 是的，但我们 能教育自己不要比较吗？
27:58 K: Find out, don’t ask me. 27:58 克：去弄清楚，别问我。
28:00 B: Well, you seem to know, sir. 28:00 乙： 看来您知道，先生。
28:02 K: I may know, I may not know. But find out, question, doubt, ask yourself. I have been brought up to compare – suppose I have been brought up, I haven’t been, but suppose I have been – compare myself with somebody else much nobler, much known, all that nonsense. Now, why do I compare? Why? You’ll say that is progress, that is evolution. 28:02 克：我可能知道， 也可能不知道。 但要去弄清， 要质疑、怀疑， 问自己。 我在比较的教育中长大 ——假设我是这样长大的， 我不是，但假设我是—— 和某个高贵得多的人比， 和著名人物比， 诸如此类的无稽之谈。 现在，我为什么要比较呢？ 为什么？ 你会说那是进步，那是进化。
28:52 D: Also Krishnaji, you are asking why, there doesn’t seem to be a reason It is just there, it is being done constantly. 28:52 丁： 克里希那吉，你也在问为什么， 似乎并没有什么原因。 就是有这种现象， 人们就是在不停地比较。
28:59 K: I know, I said that. I have been told from childhood, from babyhood I am a Catholic, baptised, etc. 28:59 克：我知道，我说过。 从小，从婴儿起， 人家就告诉我， 我是天主教徒， 受过洗礼，等等。
29:09 K: And I say, ‘I am a Catholic’. 29:09 克：我说，“我是天主教徒”。
29:11 D: Yes. 29:11 丁： 是的。
29:13 K: My parents are, I am also. Go on. 29:13 克：我的父母是，我也是。 继续说。
29:19 D: That is all that my brain knows. 29:19 丁： 我的大脑只知道这些。
29:20 K: Of course. Of course it works that way. So I said you are mechanically functioning. So go on. 29:20 克：当然。 当然大脑是这样运作的。 所以我说你是机械运作的。 那就继续吧。
29:32 A: Sir, I think I also want to compare because when I think I am nicer than somebody else I get a certain pleasure out of it. 29:32 甲： 先生，我觉得我也想比较， 我要是觉得自己比别人好， 就会从中得到某种快乐。
29:39 K: That’s it. So you want a reward from it, which is pleasure. See the consequences of it, that is, if I don’t get it I get punished, I feel hurt, I feel angry, I get depressed. I feel, Oh gosh, I am so small. All the depression, all the anger, jealousy – all that goes on, all my life. Do you want to live that way? I am just asking for you to find out. Not say, I don’t want to live that way. So you have said comparison is one of the factors of violence. Will you go into it in yourself and say, ‘It is my responsibility not to compare’? Or see the whole movement of comparison and therefore end it? Not end it, it will end itself. Like a water spouting out of a pipe, when there is no volume of water behind it, it stops. You understand? 29:39 克：就是这样。 所以你想从中得到回报， 也就是快乐。 看看其后果，就是说， 如果我没有得到， 我会受到惩罚，会感到受伤， 会感到愤怒，感到沮丧。 我觉得，天哪， 我太渺小了。 郁郁寡欢、怒气冲冲、 妒火中烧 ——这样过一辈子。 你想这样生活吗？ 我问你，只是想让你弄清楚。 不要说，我不想那样生活。 你说过，比较是暴力的一个因素。 你会不会深入 探询自己，然后说， “不比较是我的责任”？ 或者，看到比较的整个过程， 从而将其结束？ 不是结束，那自己就会结束。 就像水管里喷出的水， 后面没有水了， 水就不喷了。 你明白吗？
31:18 B: Does that mean, sir, you don’t compare? 31:18 乙： 先生，这是不是说， 您不比较？
31:21 K: Don’t ask me what I do, that’s not your point. I can tell you, yes, I never have compared myself with anybody. Not that I am vain and feel very haughty – it doesn’t occur to me. Don’t accept it because I say it, I may be deceiving myself. I have gone into this very carefully and I say I have never done it. For others it doesn’t mean a thing. It doesn’t make me into a hero. 31:21 克：别问我我怎么做， 这不是你要问的。 我可以告诉你，是的， 我从未和任何人比过。 我不是自命不凡，觉得自己了不起 ——我没这样想过。 不要因为我说了就相信我， 我可能是在自欺欺人。 我仔细研究过这个问题， 我说我从未比较过。 这对其他人并不重要。 这不会让我成为英雄。
32:08 A: Sir, when I say that I see that comparison leads to violence, I doubt to what extent I see it. 32:08 甲： 先生，我说 我看到比较会导致暴力， 我怀疑我是在多大程度上看到的。
32:16 K: That’s right. Then find out what does it mean to see. 32:16 克：没错。 那就弄清“看 ”是什么意思。
32:20 A: Yes. 32:20 甲： 是的。
32:22 K: I am asking the question. 32:22 克：我是在提问。
32:26 A: Because there seems to be some kind of an intellectual seeing, a bunch of words, and we see it. But we get stuck in that and it doesn’t seem to carry on further beyond that. 32:26 甲： 因为似乎有某种知识性的视角， 一堆文字，我们看到了这些东西。 但我们陷在那里， 似乎无法继续往前走了。
32:41 K: Why not? Is it your brain refuses to look in that direction? Is it laziness? Is it a form of saying, well it doesn’t matter, everybody compares. 32:41 克：为什么不能？ 是因为你的大脑拒绝 朝那个方向看吗？ 是因为懒惰吗？ 是因为有这样一种说法， “无所谓，大家都在比”吗？
32:58 A: Sir, I don’t think I want to give up all that has happened in these past eighteen years. 32:58 甲： 先生，我不想 放弃这十八年来 发生的一切。
33:03 K: All right, keep it. 33:03 克：好吧，那就留着吧。
33:04 A: That is what is preventing me from looking at it. 33:04 甲： 这就是妨碍我看的原因。
33:07 K: Then keep it and be violent. You want both. 33:07 克：那就留着，继续暴力。 你两样都想要。
33:14 A: That is the contradiction. 33:14 甲： 这就是矛盾。
33:16 K: I know. You want to have the cake and eat it. 33:16 克： 我知道。 你想两者兼得。
33:32 D: Can we find out what does it mean to see? 33:32 丁： 我们能弄清 “看”是什么意思吗？
33:34 K: Go on. See, observe, what does it mean? I see actually what is going on in the world. Actually see; newspapers, television, magazines, books, lectures, for and against. I see what KGB is doing, I see what the Palestinians are doing, under different names, different guises, different motives. The Shiites against somebody else. I see very clearly all that, don’t you? Why? Why do you say I see that very clearly? 33:34 克：继续。 看，观察， 这是什么意思？ 我看世界上实际发生的一切。 真正去看；报纸、 电视、杂志、书籍、 演讲、赞成和反对的声音。 我看克格勃在做什么， 我看巴勒斯坦人在做什么， 以不同的名义、打着不同的幌子、 抱着不同的动机。 什叶派反对某个其它派别的人。 这些我都看得很清楚， 你没看到吗？ 为什么？ 为什么你说我看得很清楚？
34:34 A: I am not sure that I see it very clearly, no. 34:34 甲： 我不确定 我是否看得很清楚。
34:36 K: What do you mean? 34:36 克： 什么意思？
34:39 B: It is outside of us, sir. 34:39 乙： 它在我们之外，先生。
34:44 K: Don’t you know television? 34:44 克：你不知道电视吗？
34:46 A: I do. 34:46 甲： 知道。
34:47 K: Haven’t you heard or seen in the newspapers the latest hijacking, TWA, what they are doing? You don’t see that? See in newspapers, they talk about it. 34:47 克：你没听说或 在报纸上看到最近的 劫机事件吗， 环球航空公司， 他们在做什么？ 你没看到吗？ 在报纸上看到， 他们在谈论这件事。
35:10 A: Sir, he asked a question earlier. I would just like to go back to it. What does it mean to see? 35:10 甲： 先生，他刚才问了一个问题。 我想再问一下。 看到是什么意思？
35:16 K: I am asking you. 35:16 克：我在问你。
35:18 A: But you were using the word all this time and I was getting confused. 35:18 甲： 可你一直在用这个词， 我都搞糊涂了。
35:23 K: You mean to say you don’t see what is happening? 35:23 克：你是说你没看到发生了什么？
35:27 K: You don’t know what is happening? 35:27 克：你不知道发生了什么？
35:29 A: I do. 35:29 甲： 我知道。
35:31 K: Therefore you understand what is happening. You understand there is a tree there, there are these lamps here. These lamps, those trees, the carpet, the chairs, are as factual as the TWA hijacking – right? You see that. You hear it. That is one form of hearing, seeing. You can’t doubt it. You can’t doubt if he is sitting there. 35:31 克： 所以你明白发生了什么。 你明白那里有一棵树， 这里有这些灯。 这些灯、这些树、地毯、椅子， 就像环球航空公司 劫机事件一样真实——对吗？ 你看到了。 听到了。 这是听觉、视觉的一种形式。 你不能怀疑这个。 你不能怀疑他是否坐在那里。
36:08 A: No, not at all. 36:08 甲： 完全不会。
36:10 K: So you see it, you hear it, you know it as a fact – right? As a fact. Right? Are you clear? 36:10 克：所以你看到了，听到了， 你知道这是事实，对吗？ 作为事实。 对不对？ 你清楚了吗？
36:25 A: Yes, sir. 36:25 甲： 是的，先生。
36:28 K: Do you know as a fact that comparison is a factor of violence? As a fact, not as an idea. 36:28 克：你知道比较 是暴力的一个因素吗？ 是事实，而不是想法。
36:55 K: As a fact those lamps are there, these chairs are there, the carpet, the shape of the room, those are facts. You can’t immediately change the roof, you may tomorrow. So do you see equally clearly, objectively, that – what were we talking about? 36:55 克：事实上，那些灯就在那里， 这些椅子就在那里， 地毯、房间的形状， 这些都是事实。 你无法马上改变屋顶， 明天也许可以。 那么，你是否同样清楚、 客观地看到——
37:26 S: Comparison. 37:26 我们刚才在说什么？ 学生：比较。
37:28 K: I know. 37:28 克：我知道。
37:31 B: Comparison is part of violence. 37:31 乙： 比较是暴力的一部分。
37:34 D: Krishnaji, can I say how I see it? I see that comparison... 37:34 丁： 克里希那吉，我能说说 我是怎么看的吗？我认为比较
37:39 K: I will tell you why, you are asking me to repeat, I object to that. My brain says why haven’t you moved? You understand? You ask the same question over and over again. 37:39 克：我告诉你为什么， 你让我重复， 我反对重复。 我的大脑说，你为什么还不动？ 你明白吗？ 你一遍又一遍地问 同一个问题。
37:57 A: But that is because I am getting stuck. 37:57 甲： 因为我卡住了。
37:59 K: No. 37:59 克： 没有。
38:00 A: Yes, sir. 38:00 甲： 是的，先生。
38:01 K: Why do you say, you see, or hear, or observe, or read that there is a hijacking going on, starving people, the dirt, the squalor, the annoyance, the indignity of it, they may be killed, the aeroplane may be… That is very factual. Do you see it as a fact in yourself that comparison is part of violence? I am not going to repeat it again. I hate this. Personally I can’t keep on repeating, repeating. 38:01 克： 你为什么说，你看到、 听到、观察到或读到 正在发生一起劫机事件， 那些人挨饿， 忍受着肮脏、污秽、烦恼， 受尽屈辱， 他们可能被杀， 飞机可能 这是非常真实的。 你在自己身上看到这个事实， 即比较是暴力的一部分了吗？ 我不想再重复了。 我讨厌重复。 就个人而言， 我不能不停地重复。

丁： 我能看到 别人的比较是暴力的，
38:46 D: I can see that the comparison that other people do is violent but it is very difficult to see that I am being violent. 38:46 但很难看到 自己的比较是暴力的。

丙： 但是，如果你和某人相比，
38:57 C: But if you compare yourself with someone and you may think that he is better than you and then you will feel angry, or ready to do something to him so that he is not as well as you are, or something like that. 38:57 你可能会认为他比你强， 你就会感到愤怒， 或者准备对他做些什么， 让他不如你，等等。

克：稍等一下。你有什么困难？
39:09 K: Just a minute. What’s your difficulty? We are asking a very simple question; what is your difficulty? 39:09 我们问的问题很简单， 你的困难是什么？

丁： 我认为我的困难在于
39:21 D: I think my difficulty is that... 39:21 克：停，我不听你的。
39:23 K: Stop, I am not going to listen to you. Stop first, listen to the question and see the meaning of the question and then find out, and then answer. But you jump to answer immediately. 39:23 先停下来，听听这个问题， 看看问题是什么意思， 然后再弄清楚并找到答案。 但你马上就回答了。

甲： 先生，您问有什么困难。
39:42 A: Sir, you asked what is the difficulty. 39:42 克：你看钟表很清楚，
39:47 K: You see the clock there very clearly, that is a fact, thirteen minutes to one. Right? Why don’t you see as clearly, as definitely, as accurately, that comparison is part of violence? 39:47 这是事实， 差十三分钟一点。 对不对？ 你为什么不同样清楚、 同样肯定、同样准确地看到， 比较是暴力的一部分？

甲： 我的困难在于我总是说“如果”。
40:14 A: My difficulty is that I tend to say what if. I say if I stop comparing I should be non-violent. That is what is happening. 40:14 我说如果我停止比较， 我就应该是非暴力的。 我就是这种情况。

克： 为什么？
40:26 K: Why? 40:26 克：因为你想要回报。
40:31 K: Because you want a reward. 40:31 甲： 是的。
40:32 A: Yes. 40:32 克：那你就没有准确地观察。
40:33 K: So you are then not observing the accuracy. I want it to be at ten minutes past one so that I can have my lunch. Then I am not observing, I am not listening. 40:33 我希望现在是一点十分， 这样我就可以吃午饭了。 那我就没有观察， 没有听。

甲： 所以我说， 我看见，我怀疑。
40:49 A: That is why when I say, I see, I doubt it. 40:49 克：你怎么能怀疑呢？
40:54 K: How can you doubt? 40:54 甲： 不，不是时钟方面。

克：为什么要区分两者？
40:56 A: No, not in terms of the clock. 40:56 丁： 克里希那吉， 你让他们之间有了区别。
40:58 K: Why do you differentiate between the two? 40:58 克：你看你都不听，用心听。
41:02 D: Well, Krishnaji, you made a difference between them. 41:02 丁： 我想说的是，你做了一个区分：
41:04 K: You see you don’t even listen, take the trouble. 41:04 你说的是，你可以对比
41:14 D: I was going to say that you made a difference: you were saying that you can compare between a material and another material, but not psychologically. 41:14 一种材料和另一种材料， 但不能在心理上比较。

克：我什么也没说。 我没说不要比较。
41:22 K: I don’t say anything. I didn’t say don’t compare. Don’t put me in a position and then attack that position. I am asking you: why don’t you see as clearly as you see that clock that comparison… and so on, why don’t you see it? You are young, your brain is somewhat young, you have already come to the point, ‘I don’t know, I can’t do it, you tell me’. That’s is an old man’s game! People all over the world are saying they want leaders. You also want that. And I say please don’t put me in that position. 41:22 不要把我放在一个立场上， 然后攻击这个立场。 我是在问你： 为什么你没有像 看到时钟那样清楚地 看到比较……等等， 为什么你看不到呢？ 你还年轻， 你的大脑还比较年轻， 你已经到了 “我不知道，我做不到， 你告诉我”的地步。 这是老人的游戏！ 全世界人都说他们想要领袖。 你也想这样。 我说，请不要把我放在那个立场上。

甲： 不，先生，我不是在问你答案。
42:26 A: No, sir, I am not asking you for an answer. 42:26 克： 是的。 甲： 不是.
42:29 K: You are. 42:29 克：你卡住了。
42:30 A: No. 42:30 甲： 我卡住了。
42:31 K: You are stuck. 42:31 克：好吧，卡住了。
42:33 A: I am stuck. 42:33 我怀疑你是否卡住了。
42:34 K: All right, be stuck. I doubt if you are stuck. 42:34 甲： 你怀疑？ 为什么怀疑？
42:46 A: You doubt it? Why do you doubt it? 42:46 克：因为你一直在重复。
42:48 K: Because you keep on repeating it. 42:48 甲： 这就是卡住了。
42:51 A: That is being stuck. 42:51 克：所以我不知道。 可能只是留声机在录音。
42:52 K: Therefore I don’t know. It may be mere gramophone recording. 42:52 丁： 我想这就是她所说的 卡壳，也就是重复。
42:58 D: I think that is what she calls being stuck, it is repeating it. 42:58 克：你饿了， 你不会卡住，是吧？
43:04 K: You are not stuck when you are hungry, are you? You rush there! Go on, find out why you see something very clearly, the moment you move, or move away from that physical fact you get driven to feel, ‘Oh, I don’t know, I am stuck, and I am afraid’. You play that game. So find out what you are doing, why you are doing it. 43:04 你会冲到那里！ 继续，弄清 为什么你很清楚地看到什么， 一旦你远离那个外在的事实， 你就会受到驱使，感觉 “哦，我不知道， 我被卡住了，我害怕”。 你在玩这个游戏。 所以，要弄清你在做什么， 为什么要这么做。

甲： 我常常不知道 自己的想法是否可信。
43:52 A: Often I don’t know if I can trust what I am thinking. 43:52 克：那不重要。不要相信。 为什么要相信？
43:56 K: It doesn’t matter. Don’t trust. Why should you trust? 43:56 甲： 所以才会有这种“我不 知道”的感觉，有这种不确定性。
43:58 A: That is why there is this feeling of ‘I don’t know’, this uncertainty. 43:58 克： 因为你对自己不确定。
44:03 K: Because you are uncertain of yourself. 44:03 甲： 是的。
44:05 A: Yes. 44:05 克：那就弄清 你为什么不确定。
44:06 K: Therefore find out why you are uncertain. Yes, you agree, but you stop there. 44:06 是的，你同意， 但你停在那了。

丁： 那为什么我们 不想看到这些东西呢？
44:15 D: Then why is it that we don’t want to see these things? 44:15 克：你在问谁这个问题？
44:19 K: Whom are you asking that question? 44:19 丁： 我自己。

克：问吧，找出答案。
44:21 D: Myself. 44:21 你看你十八、二十年来
44:22 K: Ask it and find out the answer. You see what you have been doing for eighteen or twenty years? Asking somebody to tell you what to do – right? And the other extreme is: ‘I don’t want you to tell me, I’ll do what I like’. Agree? With the hippies it began, and it is going on in different ways: ‘I will do what I want to do, who are you to tell me? ’, ‘The hierarchy I disapprove of’, all that. So, I am asking the same question, you haven’t answered it. 44:22 一直在做什么？ 要求别人告诉 你该怎么做——对吗？ 另一个极端是， “我不要你告诉我， 我想做什么就做什么”。 同意吗？ 这种思潮始于嬉皮士， 以不同方式流行着： “我想做什么就做什么， 你凭什么告诉我？ ”、 “我不赞成等级制度”，等等。 所以，我在问同样的问题， 你还没有回答。

甲： 先生，我觉得很难回答。
45:22 A: Sir, I find it difficult to answer it. 45:22 克：不，你甚至 还没听到这个问题。
45:25 K: No, you haven’t even heard the question. That’s what I am doubting. You see that clock – six minutes to one. I have repeated the same thing for twenty minutes, or less or more. So your brain is refusing to move from a position. You don’t say, all right, I am going to find out why I see that very clearly and I can’t see this fact. Fact, that comparison is one of the factors of violence. That is a fact. Why don’t you see that, hear it, taste it, feel that – why don’t you? ‘Oh’, you say, ‘I’m stuck’. You don’t say that with your examination. When you are being examined for an hour you don’t say, ‘Sorry, I am stuck’. 45:25 这正是我怀疑的地方。 你看那个钟 ——差六分钟一点。 我已经把同样的话 多多少少重复了二十分钟。 所以，你的大脑拒绝 跳出来。 你不会说，好， 我要弄清 为什么那个我看得很清楚， 而这个事实我却看不到。 事实是， 比较是暴力的一个因素。 这是事实。 你为什么看不到， 听不到，尝不到， 感觉不到呢？ “哦”，你说，“我卡住了”。 你考试可不会这么说。 你考了一个小时， 你不会说， “对不起，我卡住了”。

乙： 先生，我想原因之一
46:57 B: Sir, I think one of the reasons is that we are frightened of what is going to happen when we have moved. 46:57 是我们害怕改变后会发生什么。

克：弄清你是否感到害怕。
47:03 K: Find out if you are frightened. What might happen is not a fact. So you want a reward, you want to be told, you want to be patted on the back, encouraged to push. And I say, I am sorry I am not pushing. 47:03 可能发生的事情并不是事实。 所以你想要回报， 想要别人告诉你， 想要别人拍拍你的背， 鼓励你继续努力。 而我却说， 对不起，我不会鼓励你。

甲： 我看不到 我正在往哪走，
47:28 A: What I don’t see is what I am heading towards, then I feel frightened, that’s why. 47:28 于是我感到害怕， 这就是原因。

克：对不起， 我不想听你说了。
47:39 K: Sorry, I am not listening to you. You have repeated this ten different ways. 47:39 你用十种不同的方式 重复这句话。

乙： 我也是这么说的。
47:49 B: That is what I said too. 47:49 克：奖励，我很害怕，
47:51 K: Reward, I am frightened, I have been brought up that way, I know I am being programmed, yes, and you repeat that in different ways. So I say, please, go on, I am rather bored with this – I am not. So you tell me why you see something physically very clearly, and psychologically you say ‘I don’t know what you are talking about’. 47:51 我从小就是这样长大的， 我知道我被编程了， 是的， 你用不同的方式重复这个。 所以我说，请继续吧， 我觉得这样很无聊 ——我不无聊。 所以你告诉我，为什么你能 很清楚地看到一些外在的事情， 而在心理方面， 却说“我不明白你在说什么”。

甲： 有什么在妨碍我看见。
48:33 A: Something is blocking me from seeing it. 48:33 乙： 总比说我们知道 是什么妨碍了她要好。
48:40 B: It’s better than saying, we know what blocks her. 48:40 克：等等，回答她。
48:42 K: Wait, answer her. 48:42 丙： 是因为你在期待答案吗？
48:44 C: Is it because you are expecting an answer? 48:44 克：她为什么说我卡住了？
48:47 K: Why she says I am blocked. 48:47 丁： 是的，这些都是借口， 我们又一次找到了借口。
48:51 D: Yes, they are excuses, once again we find excuses. 48:51 克：谁在妨碍她？
48:55 K: Who is blocking her? 48:55 乙： 她自己。

甲： 我自己。
48:56 B: Herself. 48:56 克：弄清你是谁。 你看，你停下了。
48:57 A: Myself. 48:57 甲： 我不知道。
48:58 K: Find out who is yourself. You see, you stop. 48:58 克：别说你不知道 ——重复，重复。
49:02 A: I don’t know. 49:02 你们都太懒了。
49:05 K: Don’t say you don’t know – repeat, repeat. You are all so very lazy. You know, if I want to see what is on the other side of that hill, I walk up there and look. But you sit comfortably and say, tell me all about it. 49:05 要知道，如果我想看看 山那边有什么， 我就会走过去看。 可你们却舒舒服服地坐着， 说，给我讲讲吧。

甲： 不，先生， 我想我没这么说。
49:34 A: No, sir, I don’t think I am saying that. 49:34 克：你多多少少是这么说的。
49:37 K: More or less you are saying that. I am blocked from climbing the mountain, I am sorry I am frightened of climbing the mountain, something is blocking me... 49:37 我爬山受阻了， 对不起，我害怕爬山， 有什么东西阻挡了我……
49:50 A: But that is how it is! 49:50 甲： 但事情就是这样！

克：当然是这样。 你说事情就是这样。
49:52 K: Of course it is. And you say that is how it is. 49:52 甲： 我并不是说 我应该继续这样做。
49:57 A: I am not saying that I should remain with that. 49:57 克：那就行动吧。
49:59 K: Therefore move. 49:59 甲： 但我又被一个问题 卡住了：我该如何行动？
50:01 A: But then I get stuck with the question, how do I move? 50:01 克：从椅子上站起来，走到
50:05 K: Get up off the chair and go up the... 50:05 甲： 但我觉得 事情没那么简单。
50:09 A: But I don’t see it as simple as that. 50:09 克： 就是这么简单， 如果你看看那个钟，
50:12 K: It is as simple as that if you look at that clock and why you can’t see it equally clearly. It’s very simple but you are refusing to see it. If you want me to go deeper into it I will. But careful, I am not programming you – right? I am not telling you what to do, what to think, how to get up from the chair and walk up the hill. I won’t enter into that game. But if you want me to go into it, for you to observe your own brain, expand it, break it down, look, change and do something – don’t say I don’t know. Now I will tell you: can you look at that tree without the word? Look at that tree and find out if you can look at it. Just observe it. Not say that’s a tree and give it a name, etc. Can you do it? 50:12 为什么你不能 同样清楚地看到这个。 这很简单， 但你却拒绝看到它。 如果你想让 我深入探讨，我会的。 但请注意， 我不是在给你输入程序，对吗？ 我不会告诉你 该做什么，该想什么， 该如何从椅子上 站起来走上山去。 我不会参与这种游戏。 但是，如果你想让我探询一下， 让你观察、拓展自己的大脑， 打破僵化的思维， 看，改变，做些什么 ——别说我不知道。 现在我要告诉你：你能否 不用树这个词来看那棵树？ 看着那棵树， 看看你能不能看着它。 只是观察它。 不说那是一棵树， 给它起个名字等等。 你能做到吗？



甲： 不能。
51:50 A: No. 51:50 克： 为什么？

甲： 因为我一看那本书，
51:51 K: Why? 51:51 就会想到“书”这个字。 克：又回来了。
51:53 A: Because as soon as I look at that book, the word ‘book’ comes. 51:53 我在问你一件事。
52:01 K: Back again. I am asking you something. Look at that tree, look at that thing that is outside the window and don’t call it a tree, but look at it. Or look at that thing on the shelf and don’t call it a book but just look. Do you find that terribly difficult? No, you don’t, but she does. 52:01 看那棵树， 看窗外的那个东西， 不要叫它树，而是看它。 或者看书架上那本书， 不要叫它书，只是看。 你觉得这很难吗？ 不，你不难， 但她难。

甲： 是的，我很难。
52:47 A: Yes, I do. 52:47 克：我知道你难。
52:49 K: I know you do. 52:49 丁： 克里希那吉，告诉我们看它， 你是在给它命名。
52:50 D: Krishnaji, to tell us to look at it you are naming it. 52:50 克：命名——你说出一个问题。 命名不是观察。
52:55 K: Naming – you have said something. Naming is not observing. I have already named her therefore I don’t bother to look – she is my wife. Oh I have lived with her, had sex, and blah and she is just my wife. But I have never looked at her as a human being. Look at her, what she thinks, what she feels. Just look. But you don’t. And don’t say I am stuck! It is a very simple thing to look at that tree without the word. Find out why the word comes out so quickly, and says, tree, that’s a tiger, a snake. 52:55 我已经给她起了名字， 所以我懒得去看—— 她是我的妻子。 哦，我和她一起过，有性生活， 等等，她只是我的妻子。 但我从未把她当作一个人来看。 看看她，她想什么， 她有何感觉。 只是看。 但你不看。 不要说我卡住了。 看那棵树， 不用树那个词 看那棵树很简单。 弄清为什么这个词这么快就 出现了，然后说，树， 那是老虎，那是蛇。
54:04 C: Because we have a general idea that it applies to all of us. 54:04 丙： 因为我们有个普遍观念， 认为这适用于我们所有人。
54:07 K: No, don’t answer it yet. Find out. You have already answered it. Why do you name these things so quickly? ‘My father, my mother was like that’, and already you have got images. That is all I am preventing – not preventing – that is what is happening. So you are not free – I won’t go into it – you are not free of image-making. That’s a book. 54:07 克：不，先别回答。 弄清楚。 你已经回答了。 你为什么这么快 就命名这些东西？ “我的父亲、母亲 是那样的人”， 你已经有了形象。 这就是我所阻止的 ——不是阻止—— 这就是正在发生的事情。 所以，你就不自由 ——我不会深入探讨—— 你没有摆脱形象制造机制。 这是一本书。
54:45 A: I want to identify things. 54:45 甲： 我想辨别事物。
54:47 K: No. You see, you have already gone ahead. You don’t begin simply. I know you have a clever brain. 54:47 克：不。你看， 你已经走到前面去了。 你没有简简单单地开始。 我知道你脑子很聪明。
54:53 A: No, sir, that seems to be simple. 54:53 甲： 不，先生，这似乎很简单。
54:55 K: No, listen to me carefully. The Indians are pretty good at this kind of game. 54:55 克：不，仔细听我说。 印度人很擅长这种游戏。
55:03 B: Can we let Krishnaji go on for a while? 55:03 乙： 我们能让克里希那吉 继续说一会儿吗？
55:07 K: You haven’t even learnt a very simple fact. Look at that thing without naming it. You don’t even begin with that, you have already become complicated. You don’t say, now let me look, take time. Can you look at anything silently? Your father, your mother, your friend, your husband, anything, the terrorists, look silently to find out because that may change the whole thing. But you are not even willing to do it. Then you will ask me, ‘How am I to be silent? I am blocked’. So go into all this patiently, not take years, I don’t mean that. Because you are young, you have a long life ahead of you. 56:33 If you don’t begin to learn now when you are young, you will say, I am stuck, at the age of fifty. Oh, I can’t solve this problem. And I go to a psychiatrist, or to the priest, or get depressed, or hit my husband, get annoyed with him. This is going on. So begin from now, as you are young, to look at something without naming it. Then you will begin to learn why you name. This is very important to learn this very simple fact. Look at your prime ministers, your politicians, and look at them, the rulers of the world, right? You will learn, you will feel, you will understand something so enormously important. 58:22 Naming may be a factor of self-importance, a factor of security. Go into it all. Don’t be lazy, that’s all. Don’t ever say, ‘I’m stuck’, because nobody is going to help you. I know you want to be helped but nobody is going to do it, they would be fools. The gurus say, come with me, sit with me, and you will be all right, and you feel happy. Don’t enter into all that. Enquire, work, put your energy into it. I am afraid this has to be the last. You are going away, or coming back? 55:07 克：你连一个非常简单的 事实都没弄明白。 不加命名地看着那个东西。 你甚至还没开始这样看， 你就已经搞复杂了。 你不会说， 现在让我看看，慢慢看。 你能静静地看任何东西吗？ 看你的父亲、你的母亲、 看你的朋友、你的丈夫， 任何事物， 看恐怖分子，都可以静静地看， 因为这可能会改变整个事情。 但你甚至不肯这样做。 然后你会问我： “我怎么才能安静呢？ 我卡住了”。 所以，要耐心了解这些， 不要花上几年时间， 我不是这个意思。 因为你还年轻， 你还有很长的人生要走。 如果你现在 不趁年轻开始学习， 56:33 到了五十岁， 你就会说，我被卡住了。 哦，我解决不了这个问题。 我去看心理医生， 或者去找牧师， 或者抑郁， 或者打我的丈夫，跟他怄气。 这种事普遍存在。 所以，从现在， 你还年轻时， 就不加命名地看待事物。 然后，你就会明白 你为什么会命名。 了解这个简单的事实 非常重要。 看着你们的首相， 看着你们的政治家， 看着他们 这些世界的统治者，对吗？ 你会学到，你会感受到， 你会明白一些非常重要的事情。 命名可能是自负的一个因素， 58:22 也可能是安全的一个因素。 把这些都探询一下。 不要懒惰，就是这样。 永远不要说“我卡住了”， 因为没有人会帮你。 我知道你想得到帮助， 但没人会帮你， 他们也许是傻瓜。 那些古鲁说，跟我来， 和我坐在一起， 你会没事的，你会感到快乐。 不要相信这些。 要询问，用心思考， 投入你的精力。 恐怕这是最后一次了。 你们要离校，还是会回来？

丁： 会回来。
59:33 D: Coming back. 59:33 克：你下学期还会来，你确定吗？
59:37 K: You will be here next term, you are sure? 59:37 丁： 是的。
59:40 D: Yes. 59:40 克：我只是问问。 乙： 是的。
59:41 K: I am just asking. 59:41 克： 你呢？
59:42 B: Yes. 59:42 丙： 我会回来。
59:43 K: And you? 59:43 克：那么我们 可能还能见面，对吗？
59:45 C: I am coming back. 59:45 别一开始就跟我说 你卡住了。
59:46 K: So we may meet again – right? And don’t begin to tell me you are stuck. You have two and a half months, or three months. SUBTITLE TEXT COPYRIGHT 1985 KRISHNAMURTI FOUNDATION TRUST LTD 59:46 你还有两个半月， 或者三个月。
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