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BR85Q2 - 2nd Question & Answer Meeting



0:51 Krishnamurti: Thank you, sir. Too late! 谢谢你，先生。 你来得太迟了！
1:07 Q: Can I put it higher up, sir? 我可以把它（麦克风）安放得高一点吗，先生？ （机器的噪音响起）
1:39 K: There it is! 噪音是从那里传来的！（笑声）
1:47 There are many questions, and there are seven questions here. And they have been selected carefully. I haven’t read them. The others have read them and chosen them. I hope you don’t mind. 你们提了很多问题，我手上有七个问题。 它们是精心挑选出来的问题。 我还没有读过它们。 其他人读了你们的问题，然后挑选出了一些。 我希望你们不要介意。
2:16 Before we go into these questions, may we talk over something together? We are so easily influenced, not only by the box there, in each one’s room, by the books, by the newspapers, magazines, by the past traditions. As you heard probably last night, Jerusalem existed 5,000 years ago and there were parts of India further still. This long tradition, or short tradition of a single day, or a single afternoon on your drive, or your walking in the woods – all these influence us, not only the genetic process in each human being, the heredity, the whole existence seems to be a process of influencing each other – the air, the pollution, the beauty of the earth, everything around us, and even you sitting there and the speaker is here – we are influencing each other. We are telling us, each one of us, what to do, what to think, we put pressure on each other through beauty, through a lovely poem or a personal relationship. It is a constant process, it appears, of being moulded, shaped, put into a form. And we proceed for the rest of our life in that narrow path, narrow way, and that seems to be our way of existence. And one wonders if it is at all possible to be totally free of influence, to find the origin, the beginning of all things, which must have no cause or an effect, it must. 在我们进入这些问题之前，我们能否一起来讨论一些东西？ 我们是如此容易被影响，不仅是被那里的电视机影响，每个人房间里都有电视机， 也会被书本、被报纸、被杂志、被过去的传统所影响。 你们昨晚或许已经听到过了：耶路撒冷早在5000年前就已存在， 而印度的某些地区历史更悠久。 这漫长的传统，或者仅有一天的短暂的传统， 或者某一个你开车的下午，或者你在树林里散步， 所有这些都会影响我们，不仅仅是每一个人身上的遗传过程， 那种遗传性，整个存在似乎就是一个彼此影响的过程 ——空气、污染、地球的美， 我们周围的每一样事物，即使当你坐在那里， 而演讲者坐在这里时，我们也正在彼此影响着。 我们正在告诉自己，告诉我们每个人该怎么做，该怎么想， 我们彼此给对方施加压力——通过「美」，通过一首美好的诗歌， 或者一段私人关系。 它看起来像是一个持续不断的过程：不断地被塑造、 定型，放入到某个模式中。 然后我们在余生中便沿着那条狭窄的道路、 以那种狭窄的方式前行，而这似乎就是我们的生活方式。 而我们想知道：究竟是否可能完全地摆脱掉影响， 然后去发现一切万物的起源与开始 ——它必定是没有起因或结果的，它必定如此
5:19 So is that possible? You understand? We are talking over together. We are not trying to influence you, or you are influencing the speaker. We are two friends talking over together, in the same boat, in the same way, path – not spiritual? and all that kind of stuff, but ordinary, a path that goes through the woods, dappled light, and the beauty of the earth and the trees. And is it ever possible, we are asking each other, to be free of all influence: the past, of which we are, and that past has a tremendous influence on us, the long tradition of the so-called religious books, the old poems, the ancient literature from the Iliad to the ancient Hindu? And one asks oneself, as you are asking, as I am asking, whether it is possible to really be free of all this, and something totally original? Not the repetition, repetition, of guru and disciple, the follower, and followed with their peculiar dresses, and all that kind business. Is it possible? Please, give your attention a little bit to it. What do you think? Is it possible or not possible? If it is not possible, or if it is incredibly difficult, and therefore we choose the easiest way, follow the old pattern, only in different colours, different beads, different leaders, teachers, gurus, and so-called enlightened birds! I am sorry. And so on. Is that at all possible? Or are we doomed forever to remain in this state of being impressed, shaped, moulded, conditioned? 所以这是否可能？ 你们理解了吗？ 我们正在一起讨论它。 我们并没有在试图影响你，或者你在影响演讲者。 我们就像两个朋友一样在一起讨论它，我们在同一条船上， 走在同一条路上，不是什么「灵性之路」等等这类东西， 而是普通的路，那条穿过树林的小路， 一路上有着斑驳的光影，有着美丽的泥土与树木。 而我们正在询问彼此：是否可能 摆脱掉所有的影响：摆脱掉过去——我们就是「过去」， 这个「过去」对我们产生了极大的影响，那历史悠久的传统 所谓的“宗教圣典”，那些古老的诗歌， 从《伊里亚特》（相传为荷马所做的古希腊史诗）到古代印度的那些古老文献。 于是我们不禁问自己，就像你会问自己，我也会问自己： 我们是否可能真正地摆脱掉所有这一切， 从而拥有某种完全原创的东西？ 而不是重复再重复：古鲁和弟子，追随者和 被追随者，以及他们特别的着装和所有这类东西。 这可能吗？ 请稍微集中一下注意力。 你们怎么认为？ 它可能吗？还是不可能？ 如果它不可能的话，或者如果它极其困难，那么我们便会选择 最轻松容易的方式，继续追随旧有的模式：只不过穿上了不同颜色的衣服， 拿上了不同的念珠，追随不同的领袖、 导师、古鲁和所谓的“开悟的鸟人”！（笑声） 我很抱歉。 等等诸如此类的东西。 它究竟可不可能呢？ 还是说我们注定永远要停留在这种被印刻、 被定型、被塑造、被制约的状态中？ 而如果它完全可能的话，你会怎么做呢？
9:02 And what would you do if it is at all possible? How would you set about it? In what manner would you approach this question? Perhaps that may be the real question, the most important question. Because we are so gullible, we invent so many reasons for doing that, for following, leading, surrendering oneself to something that is so convincing, satisfying, so handing over all the so-called word ‘responsibility’ to another. This has been our lot. And knowing all this, how would one come to see what actually is and see what one can do? Not just talk about it. You may be influenced by your wife, husband, girl, and so on. 你会如何着手开始去做它？ 你会以怎样的方式去处理这个问题呢？ 这或许才是真正的问题，最重要的问题。 因为我们是如此的易受骗，我们发明了如此多的理由来解释我们所做的事： 比如去追随某人，去领导别人，让自己臣服于某个事物 ——某个如此令人信服、令人满足的事物， 然后将所有的一切——所谓的“世俗责任”——交给别人。 这就是我们的命运。 而在知道了这一切后，我们要如何才能开始看到 事实真相，然后明白我们可以做些什么？ 而不只是谈论它。 你也许会被你的妻子或丈夫，或者女朋友等人所影响。
10:43 Isn’t it necessary to have a great deal of doubt? What do you say? Isn’t it necessary to have a certain quality of scepticism, not only about others but about oneself: about one’s desires, convictions, beliefs, faith, and definite, directive purposes? Can we question all that, doubt all that, and see how far that doubt, how far the sense of asking, demanding, enquiring can go. Could we do this together? Not that the speaker is leading you, or you are leading with your convictions the speaker, but together, I mean together, enquire into this. 心怀巨大的质疑难道不是必要的吗？ 你们觉得呢？ 保持一定程度的怀疑难道不是必需的吗？ 不仅是怀疑别人，也要怀疑自己：怀疑自己的渴望、 信念、信仰、信任和明确的、定向性的目的？ 我们能否质疑所有这些，去怀疑所有这些，然后看看这种质疑能够走到多远， 这种质问、要求和探询的感觉能够走得多远。 我们能一起来做这件事吗？ 不是说演讲者正在带领着你们，或者你们带着自己的信念 在带领着演讲者，而是我们一起，我的意思是一起去探询它。
12:10 The computer, as we said the other day, the computer is going to do all our efficient work, probably better than we do. It will invent new gods, a new system of theology, a new way of living, which is the industrial age is over nearly, and the computer age will come in. These are all facts. We are not saying something abnormal, non-factual, or imaginary. This is what is going to happen to all of us. They are inventing such colossal interference with the brain. 电脑……就如我们前几天说过的： 电脑将可以从事所有高效率的工作，它可能做得比我们更好。 它将会发明出新的神明，新的神学体系， 新的生活方式，也就是说：工业时代差不多快要结束了， 而电脑时代将会到来。 这些全都是事实。 我们并没有在说一些反常的、不真实的，或者想象出来的东西。 这是即将发生在我们所有人身上的事情。 人类发明了如此巨大的干扰大脑的装置。
13:16 So we are asking: could we go into this question together? Knowing that we need scepticism, doubt, and doubt is very energising and cleansing. Will you do it? Doubt one’s own experiences, one’s own attitudes, prejudices, agreements and disagreement – all that? And doubt, like a dog on a leash, some times at the right place you must let the dog run, freely, jump, otherwise the dog becomes rather tame and... 所以我们正在问：我们能否一起来探究这个问题？ 要清楚这一点，那就是我们需要怀疑、质疑， 质疑能够带来巨大的能量，清洗净化一切。 你会这么做吗？ 去质疑你自己的经验，你自己的态度、 偏见、同意什么、不同意什么，等等这些？ 而质疑就像拴着皮带的狗，有时候在正确的地方，你就必须 让狗自由地跑、自由地跳，否则的话，这条狗就会变得相当驯服和
14:28 So scepticism also has its right place, not a particular place, has its own quality of rightness. ‘Oh, I won’t doubt that because I belong to that, but I will doubt everything else’. We were talking – we used to have a great many friends at one time – Communists. Don’t be shocked. And they would go so far and no further, like the Catholics, like the Protestants, like the Hindus, Buddhist monks – so far, beyond that is mystery, or beyond that is impossible. So doubt must be kept on a leash and allowed to run also. Can you do that? Can we do it together? Doubt about your gods, your gurus, your experiences, and so on – the whole background of human experience, human endeavour, human conclusions, the whole bundle of it, and begin to enquire into that bundle. And see how far actually, not theoretically, actually in one’s life, daily life, how far you can go with this doubt, this enquiry, this passion behind it. 所以怀疑也有其正确的位置， 不是在某个特定的地方，而是有它自身的公正性。 “噢，我不会去怀疑它，因为我属于它， 但我会去怀疑其他一切事物。” 我们曾经讨论过——我们曾有过 很多朋友，他们是共产主义者。 不要感到震惊。 他们会怀疑到如此的程度，以至于无法更进一步了。就像天主教徒、 新教徒、印度教徒、佛教僧侣一样， 他们走的如此远，但再往前就是神秘事物了，或者说，超越这个程度已经不可能了。 所以，质疑必须要保持在一定范围内，但也要允许它发生。 你们能够这样做吗？我们可以一起这样做吗？ 质疑你的神明、你的古鲁、你的经验，等等 ——质疑人类经验、人类努力和人类结论的整个背景， 那一大堆的东西，然后开始探询那堆东西。 去看看你实际上可以探询到怎样的程度，不是理论上的，而是在你真实的生活中， 在日常生活中，你可以带着这种怀疑、 这种探询和这种激情走得多远。
16:58 Should we answer the questions or would you like to go on with what we were talking about? 我们要来回答这些问题吗？还是说你们想要继续 我们刚才所讨论的东西？
17:12 How far, how deep, is knowledge essential? Not only knowledge of books and what others have said, but knowledge about ourselves. Knowledge is always limited – right? You can see what the scientific knowledge is doing, is achieving. Little, adding, adding more and more and more. What is added to is always limited, naturally. Bien? Are we understanding? If I am adding something all the time, as knowledge, what I am gathering slowly, that which is gathered slowly is limited always because there is more, more, more. Right? So knowledge is always limited. And those who invent, ‘Oh, yes, we can go beyond knowledge’. They have gone into this question in ancient India and invented the idea... I won’t go into it, not worth it. And knowledge is our background. That background is guiding us, shaping us, telling us what to do. Or you have an intuition – a favourite word that! – but that word, too, is rather dangerous because it may be your wish sublimated, becomes intuition. But it is still your wish, your desire. So what place has knowledge in daily life? I am sorry the speaker is asking all these questions. Probably you won’t answer, you will just listen and carry on. But if one actually listens and goes into it, what place has knowledge in life, in daily life? When you write a letter you have to have knowledge. When you speak English you have to have knowledge, or French, or Italian, or whatever it is, or Russian. And when you do business, when you telephone, when you do everything physically you have to have knowledge. How to drive a car. And also knowledge in relationship. One recognises one’s wife, one’s husband, and girl, and all the rest of it. It is the… recognition is part of knowledge. And what place has knowledge in relationship? Can I go on? Or you are amused by all this? What place has knowledge between you and another? Or what place has knowledge? I know my wife. Or my father, mother, husband. When we say, ‘I know’, knowing is knowledge – right? What place has that in daily life, between my wife and my husband, between the man and the woman? Answer, please, what place your knowing her... what place that knowing has in your relationship? Is knowledge the impediment in relationship? 知识在多大、多深的程度上是必需的？ 不仅仅是书本上的知识，以及别人所说的知识， 也包括对于我们自身的认识。 知识永远都是局限的——对吧？ 你可以看到科学知识正在做的事情和正在实现的东西。 先是一点点，然后不断地增加、增加再增加。 然而被增加的那个东西永远都是局限的，这是很自然的。 好吧？ 我们理解了吗？ 如果我一直在增加某些东西，比如「知识」， 那么我慢慢收集起来的东西，那个慢慢聚集起来的东西， 它总是有限的，因为它还可以增加更多、更多、更多。 对吧？ 所以知识永远都是局限的。 然后有些人发明出了一些东西，“噢，是的，我们可以超越知识。” 在古代印度，人们就已经探究了这个问题，然后发明出了那个概念 我就不展开讲了，它并不值得讲。 而「知识」就是我们的背景。 这个背景正在指引着我们，塑造着我们，告诉我们该怎么做。 或者你会有一种直觉——你们最喜爱这个词！——但这个词同样也是 相当危险的，因为它可能是你的愿望升华了，变成了「直觉」。 但它仍旧是你的愿望，你的欲望。 所以「知识」在日常生活中的位置是什么？ 很抱歉，演讲者问了你们这些问题。 你们可能不会回答，你们只会一听而过，然后继续老样子。 然而如果我们真正地聆听，然后深入它的话， 「知识」在生活中，在我们日常生活中的位置是什么呢？ 当你写一封信的时候，你必须要有知识。 当你说英语的时候，你必须要有（英语）的知识， 或者法语、意大利语，或者无论什么语言的知识，俄语的知识。 而当你做生意，当你打电话， 当你从事任何体力工作的时候，你都必须要有知识。 如何驾驶汽车。 我们同样也有那种关系中的「知识」。 你可以认出自己的妻子或丈夫、自己的女朋友，等等。 而这种识别，它就是知识的一部分。 而「知识」在关系中的位置是什么？ 我可以继续讲下去吗？ 还是说你们觉得这一切挺搞笑的？ 在你和他人之间，「知识」的位置是什么？ 或者说：知识有什么样的地位？ 我认识我的妻子。 或者我的父亲、母亲、丈夫。 当我们说“我认识”的时候，这种“认识”就是知识——对吧？ 在日常生活的关系中，它的位置是什么？——我和妻子的关系，或者我和丈夫的关系， 男人和女人之间的关系。 请回答，你对她的「认识」有什么样的位置？ 这种「认识」在你的关系中的位置是什么？ 「知识」是否是关系中的一种阻碍？
22:55 Q: Yes.

K: Just a minute, don’t say yes. It is so easy to say yes, and then what? If I say to myself, ‘I know my wife’, what do I mean by knowing her? My previous sexual experience, my irritation about her, and her anger with me, her saying ‘You have been very good today, nice and kind’. ‘Let’s go to dinner’ – and all the rest of it. All that builds up an image about each other. This is a fact. And when I have built up sufficient image I say, ‘I know her’. She says, ‘I know my husband, his quirks, his idiocy, his goodness’, and all the rest of it. All that is knowledge. And we are asking, in relationship what place has that? What place has knowledge? Or, it has no place at all. Is love knowledge? The remembrance of your sex, of your – all the rest of it, the background which you have built up in that particular relationship, and that knowledge is divisive. Isn’t it? Gosh, you are all asleep. It separates. I with my ambition, greed, and all the rest of it, and she has hers. She wants to fulfil and I want to fulfil. So we are – we may meet together in bed but like two rails that never meet. Do we face this? If you are married, do you face this? Or if you live with a girl, do you face this fact? Or one doesn’t want to look at facts. 		听众：是的。

克：稍等片刻，不要说“是的”。 说“是”非常容易，然后呢？ 如果我对自己说，“我认识我的妻子”，我所说的“认识她”是什么意思呢？ 那就是：我过往的性爱经验，我生她的气，以及她对我的愤怒， 此外她也会说“你今天真好，温柔又体贴。” “让我们来共进晚餐吧”——等等这一切。 所有这些都是建立在对于彼此的「意象」之上的。 这是一个事实。 而当我建立起了足够完整的意象，我便会说，“我知道她”。 她也会说，“我知道我的丈夫，知道他的怪癖、他的愚蠢、他的温柔体贴” 等等这些东西。 所有这些都是「知识」。 而我们在问：在关系中，「知识」有什么样的位置？ 「知识」的地位是什么？ 或者说，它没有任何位置。 「爱」是知识吗？ 那种关于你性爱的回忆，关于你……等等那些东西的回忆， 你在那种特定关系中所建立起来的背景， 而那种「知识」是分裂性的。 难道不是吗？ 天哪，你们全都睡着了。（笑声） 这种知识把你们分开了。 我有着我的野心、贪婪等等，而她也有着她的野心和贪婪等等。 她想要自我实现，我也想要自我实现。 所以我们其实……我们也许会睡在同一张床上，但却像两条铁轨一样永不相交。 我们能面对这个事实吗？ 如果你结婚了，你能面对这个事实吗？ 或者如果你和某个女孩同居，你能面对这个事实吗？ 还是说，我们并不想要直视这些事实。
26:06 So please, find out for oneself, actually in relationship, what knowledge is, what your experiences are, and whether it is a hindrance in relationship, or a factor that helps you live together somewhat comfortably, somewhat happily, but keeping a careful distance from each other – right? 所以请你们亲自去发现它：在实际的关系中，「知识」是什么？ 你的经验是什么？它是否是关系中的一个障碍？ 还是说，它是一个助益的因素，能让你们稍微舒服快乐一点地生活在一起， 同时也能保持彼此间小心谨慎的距离——对吗？
26:46 May we go on to our other questions? Good Lord, it is nearly twelve. 让我们继续来回答其他问题吧？ 天哪，都快十二点了。
26:56 1ST QUESTION: K says there is no path to truth. Is the faculty to see this outside myself? My consciousness and means of perception are entirely within me. How can I go without any means or tools towards the unknown goal? What will give me the need, the energy to move in this direction? （第一个问题）克氏（即克里希那穆提）说：没有任何道路可以抵达真理。 “看清上述这点”的能力是否是在我之外的？ 我的意识和洞察感知的手段完全是内在的东西。 而没有任何手段或工具，我又如何能够朝着未知的目标前进呢？ 什么东西可以给予我朝着这个方向前进的欲望和能量？
27:35 K says there is no path to truth. Do you accept that? There is no path to truth. Is the faculty to see this outside of myself? My consciousness and means of perception are entirely within me. How can I go without any means or tools towards the unknown goal? What will give me the need, the energy to move in this direction? Good Lord! There are so many things in this question. 克氏说：没有任何道路可以抵达真理。 你们接受这点吗？ 没有任何道路可以抵达真理。 “看清上述这点”的能力是否是在我之外的？ 我的意识和洞察感知的手段完全是内在的东西。 而没有任何手段或工具，我又如何能够朝着未知的目标前进呢？ 什么东西可以给予我朝着这个方向前进的欲望和能量？ 我的天哪！（笑声） 这个问题中包含了很多的东西。
28:45 First of all, as we said the other day, the answer is not outside the question. The answer is not outside the problem. The answer is in the problem, in the question. Please, let’s talk that briefly over. We are always trying to find an answer, satisfactory, outside the problem, that is convenient, that is happy, that is pleasurable, and so on. If we could put aside all this rather escaping from the problem, if you could look at the problem, look at this question together. K says there is no path to truth. Why do you believe him? Why do you accept it? Why do you repeat it? K says. Who is K to say it? What right? Or is it a reaction? You understand? Because he sees so many paths to truth – I won’t go into that. As long as there are human beings they have different opinions. So it may not be true. Let’s first find that out. 首先，就如我们前几天说过的： 答案并不在提问之外。 答案并不在问题之外。 答案就存在于问题、提问之中。 让我们来简要地讨论一下这点吧。 我们总是试图在问题之外找到一个答案，令人满意的答案， 某个方便的、快乐的、愉快的等等的答案。 如果我们可以抛开这一切，如果你不去逃避那个问题， 如果你可以去观察那个问题，我们一起去看这个问题的话。 克氏说：没有任何道路可以抵达真理。 为什么你要相信他的话？ 为什么你要接受它？为什么你要重复它？ 克氏说过。 那个说它的“克氏”是谁呢？ 他有什么权利这么说？ 还是说这个提问只是一种「反应」？你们明白了吗？ 因为他看到了有如此多的道路通向真理——我就不展开讲了。 只要还是有各种人存在，他们就会有不同的观点。 所以，这句话或许也不正确。 让我们先来搞清楚它吧。
30:42 There are the various Christian paths – right? The Catholic, the Protestant, and the various divisions of Protestantism, innumerable, many of them. And there is the Buddhist, several paths according to the Buddha, one never really knows what the Buddha actually said, or what the Bible says, one never knows. So. Then there are the Tibetan paths – right? There are the Buddhist paths, the Muslim, with their divisions. So all these paths are spread out before you to truth, whatever that may mean, to God, to illumination, to enlightenment and so on, there are dozens of paths – right? How will you choose? How will you choose which is the right path? Please, tell me. 存在着各种基督教的道路——对吧？ 天主教、新教，以及新教的各种分支， 无数的道路，很多很多。 我们还有佛教，佛陀所给出的若干条道路， 但我们永远不知道佛陀究竟说了些什么， 《圣经》究竟说了些什么，这个我们永远不知道。 就是这样。 然后我们还有西藏人的道路——对吧？ 我们有佛教徒的道路、穆斯林的道路，以及它们的各种分支。 因此所有这些道路都在你面前展开，它们都通往真理 ——无论那个“真理”指的是什么：上帝也好、觉悟也好、 开悟也好，等等。我们有着很多很多的道路——对吧？ 那么你会如何选择呢？ 你要怎么选出那条正确的道路呢？ 请告诉我。 听众：你必须要知晓你自己。
32:02 Q: You have to know yourself. 克：有人说：你必须要知晓你自己。
32:05 K: Somebody says you have to know yourself. So why bother about paths? Why bother about truth? Why bother about what K says? Why don’t you know about yourself? And how will you know about yourself? What manner? How will you look at yourself as you will look at yourself in a mirror, how would you look at yourself? It is easy to say look at yourself. Socrates and ancient Greeks, and still further ancient Israelites, and still further ancient Egyptians, and so on, so on, the Hindus, they have all said in a different way, ‘Know yourself’. And there are these paths in front of us. And we all want to achieve truth, whatever that thing is. And all these paths lead to that. That means truth is fixed – right? Must be, otherwise there would be no path to it. It must be stationary, it must have no movement, it must be dead, then there can be paths to it. No, no don’t laugh, this is what we do. So somebody like K comes along and says, look, don’t bother about the paths, it may be like you are on a ship with a rudder, and you move, you find out, learn, move, move, keep on going, find out. Not become stationary and make truth something permanent – right? And we want something permanent. Permanent relationship – I am attached to my husband, wife, I want it permanent. We don’t admit any change. Right? And we are changing all the time, both biologically as well as psychologically, but we want to remain with something that is completely satisfactory, permanent, enduring, giving me security. And as I find there is really no security, then I have truth as the permanent entity towards which I am going. And there are all the disciples, gurus, and the priests, all help you to go. I don’t know where, but they help you. 既然如此，为什么还要操心那些道路呢？ 为什么还要操心“真理”呢？ 为什么还要操心克氏说的话呢？ 为什么你不去知晓你自己呢？ 而你要如何才能知晓你自己呢？ 以什么方式知晓呢？ 你要如何观察你自己，就像你观察镜中的自己一样， 你会如何来观察自己呢？ 嘴上说说“观察自己”是很容易的。 苏格拉底、古希腊人，更早的古代以色列人， 以及还要更早的古代埃及人等等， 古代印度人，他们都曾以不同的方式说过“要知晓你自己”。 而这些道路已经摆在了我们面前。 我们都想要达到真理——不管这个东西是什么。 所有这些道路都通往真理。 这就意味着真理是固定在某个地方的——对吧？ 它必然是固定于某处的，否则的话不可能会有通往它的道路。 它必然是固定不动的，它必然是不会活动的， 它必定是死的东西，这样才可能会有抵达它的道路。（笑声） 不，不，请别笑，这就是我们所做的事情。 然后某个像克氏一样的人过来了，他说：你瞧，别再操心什么道路的事儿了， 这也许就像你正在一艘由你掌舵的船上，你在前进着 你在寻找、学习、移动、移动，不断前进，去发现。 不要停滞不动，然后把真理变成某种永恒不变的东西——好吧？ 但我们想要某种永恒不变的东西。 某种永恒的关系， 我执著于我的丈夫或妻子，我想要我俩的关系能永久不变。 我们不愿承认任何改变。对吧？ 虽然我们一直都在改变着——既包括生物学上的改变， 也包括心理上的改变——但我们却想要和一直和某个 完全令人满意的、永恒的、持久的、能够带给我安全感的东西在一起。 然而由于我发现其实并不存在什么「安全」， 于是我便把真理当作一个永恒的实体，然后朝着它前进。 然后我们便有了所有那些弟子、古鲁和牧师来帮助你前进。 我不知道他们要帮助你去哪里，但他们就是会帮助你。 所以，我们要运用自身理性的能力，和逻辑的能力，
35:34 So using one’s own capacity to reason, capacity to have logic, see things step by step, and not escape any step. Or – that is much more complicated – see that which is true, accurate. Well, that is a different matter. 去一步一步地看清事物，而不要逃避任何一个步骤。 或者说，我们也可以去……——这要复杂的多——去准确地看到那个正确的事物。 当然了，这又是另一回事了。
36:11 So the questioner says: what are the tools necessary to reach truth, which is pathless? The moment you have tools you have already created the path – right? Do you see this? No? The moment I have a means to do that, to achieve that, the means then becomes the tool and I have already got the truth towards which I am working – right? So the moment you have a tool, a means, a system, then you know what truth is, therefore there is no point in having a tool. I don’t know if... Do we see this? Or is this too illogical? Or too dastardly reasonable? The means is the end. The means is not different from the end. Right? 所以这位提问者在问：我们需要什么样的工具才能触及真理 ——这个无路可循的东西？ 一旦你有了工具，你就已经创造出了道路——对吧？ 你们看到这点了吗？没看到？ 一旦我有了某种手段可以做那件事，可以达到那个东西， 那种手段就变成了工具， 于是我就已经得到了那个我为之努力奋斗的“真理”——对吧？ 所以一旦你有了工具、手段、体系，那时你就已经知道了 什么是“真理”，因此再拥有工具就没有什么意义了。（笑） 我不知道你们是否……我们看到这一点了吗？ 还是说这一切太不合逻辑了？ 或者说它是卑鄙的逻辑自洽？（笑声） 手段就是目的。 手段和目的并没有什么不同。对吧？
37:45 So. Another question in this is: my consciousness and means to perception are entirely within me. What do you mean by the word ‘consciousness’? You don’t mind going into all this? It is fun if you go into all this. Not only the understanding of one’s own brain’s capacity, but also to delve. You dig very deeply to find oil, go through all that trouble, and we won’t even spend a second doing this in ourselves, for ourselves. So what do we mean by that word ‘consciousness’? Is that consciousness different from you, from the me? 好了。 这个提问中的另一个问题是：我的意识 以及洞察感知的手段，它完全是内在的东西。 你所说的“意识”这个词是什么意思呢？ 你们不介意我深入这一切吧？ 如果你们深入这一切的话，它是很有乐趣的。 不仅仅是了解我们自己大脑的能力，同样也要去探究。 你们会挖掘得很深，从而发现石油——历经千辛万苦， 然而我们却甚至不愿意花费一秒钟时间，为了自己而去探究我们的内心世界。 所以我们所说的“意识”这个词是什么意思呢？ 这个“意识”，它和「你」或者「我」有所不同吗？
38:59 Do you get bored by all this on a lovely morning instead of being on a golf course, or on a walk, or something? Since you are here and we are here, let’s go on! What do you mean by consciousness? Books have been written about it by experts. And we are not experts – right? Let’s understand this. You and the speaker are not experts. God forbid! Not professionals. Professional gurus, professional followers, with their peculiar dresses, and all the rest of it. We are just enquiring together, like two friends. What do you mean by consciousness? All that you are, isn’t it? Your consciousness is made up of all its content – right? Anger, jealousy, faith, belief, anxiety, aspiration, all the innumerable experiences that one has had, all the accumulation of all the little things of life, and also suffering, pain, insecurity, confusion, and the desire to escape from all this, and find something enduring. And in it also there is the fear of death, and enquiring what is there beyond. Right? All that, this vast bundle, is our consciousness – no? No? Yes? Go on, sirs, there is no disagreement about this. Don’t be nervous. We are our consciousness. And the content of consciousness makes up the whole entirety of consciousness, whether it is higher consciousness, lower consciousness, the desire to expand consciousness, and all the rest of it – it is still within the field of consciousness – right? And that consciousness is me. There is no me without that. So when you say ‘me’ is different, my consciousness is different, then you have a battle with it, struggle, conflict, all that ensues. 这是个美好的早晨，你们是不是对这一切感到厌烦了， 心里觉得还不如去高尔夫球场，去散散步，或者干点别的什么？ 但既然你们都在这里，我们都在这里，还是让我们继续讲下去吧！ 你所说的“意识”是什么意思？ 各路专家都曾经写书谈论过它。 但我们并不是专家——是吧？ 我们要明白这一点。 你和演讲者并不是专家。 但愿不会如此！ 我们也不是专业人士。 专业的古鲁，专业的追随者， 他们穿着奇异的服饰，等等这些。 我们只是像两个朋友一样地一起询问彼此。 你所说的“意识”是什么意思？ 这个“意识”就是关于你的一切事实，不是吗？ 你的意识是由所有的意识内容组成的——是吧？ 愤怒、嫉妒、信念、信仰、焦虑、抱负， 你曾有过的无数经验， 所有生活琐事的积累， 也包括那些痛苦、苦恼、不安全感、困惑， 以及想要逃离这一切并找到某种永久之物的欲望。 意识中同样也有着对死亡的恐惧， 以及对死后世界的探询。对吧？ 所有这些，这一大堆东西，它们就是我们的意识——不是吗？ 不是？是的？ 继续，先生们，我还没有听到关于这一点的分歧争论。 不用紧张。 我们就是我们的「意识」。 而意识的内容就组成了那整个「意识」， 不管是更高层的意识、 较低级的意识，还是想要扩展意识的渴望（笑）， 等等这些东西， 它们仍然是落入于意识的领域中的——对吧？ 而那个「意识」就是我。 没有「意识」，就没有“我”。 所以当你说“我”有所不同，我的意识有所不同时， 你就会与之战斗，斗争和冲突等等就会随之而来。 因此，我们的问题就变成了：我们是否可能
42:31 So our question then is: is it possible first to discover for ourselves the content, to see the content? That is fairly easy. The habits, the way you comb your hair, the habits of speech, of thought. It is fairly simple to observe those. And also to become aware of one’s own conditioning as a British, as a Frenchman, as a Russian, and etc., etc. It is also fairly easy to see our various religious inclinations – Catholic, Protestant, Hindu, Buddhist, following something or other – you follow? – that is fairly easy. But to go beyond that. We don’t need an aqualung, you have to go very deeply, but to go very deeply one must understand the superficial thing first, whether it is possible to be free from influence which conditions us. Right? Is it possible? Find out. Work, sir, don’t listen. Work at it. Put your tremendous energy into it, you have got tremendous energy, you don’t want more. It took you a lot of energy to come here. Use some of that energy, if one may respectfully point out, use some of that energy to go into this. When you want something you go after it. That means one has to be not quite indolent, one has to be a little active. And there is nobody to help you, no tool, no instrument, no leader – nothing to help you. You must really become helpless to find the real thing. I don’t know if you understand what I am talking about. If you are helpless, actually helpless, that means there’s no help whatsoever from anybody, from any book, from any person, from any environment, then you are in that state of real helplessness, then something else takes place. Then you begin to see things. 先去发现那些内容，去看到那些内容？ 这是很容易的事。 看到各种习惯，你梳头的方式，你讲话的习惯，你的思维习惯。 去观察这些东西是相当简单的。 此外，我们同样要觉察到自己作为一个英国人、 法国人、俄罗斯人等等的局限。 而看到我们自身的各种宗教倾向也是相当容易的： 天主教徒、新教徒、印度教徒、佛教徒， 去跟从这个或那个宗教——你们跟上了吗？这是相当容易的。 但是，我们要超越它们。 我们并不需要什么潜水呼吸器，但你必须要潜入深处， 而要潜入深处，我们必须首先了解那些肤浅表面的事情， 我们是否可能摆脱掉种种 制约了我们的影响？——是吧？ 这可能吗？ 去发现它。 动起来，先生，不要只是听。你要努力去探究它。 付出你大量的能量去探究它， 你已经有了巨大的能量，你并不缺能量。 你们不辞辛劳地来到了这里。 就请花费一些能量——如果允许某人尊敬地指出这一点—— 请花费一些能量来探究这一点。 当你想要某个东西时，你就会去追求它。 这意味着我们必须不能太懒惰，我们必须要稍微积极主动一点。 而没有什么人可以帮助你，没有什么工具、 手段或领袖可以帮你，没有任何东西可以帮助你。 你必须变得真正的无助，才能发现那个「真实之物」。 我不知道你们是否明白了我在说的东西。 如果你是无助的，真正的无助， 这意味着没有任何帮助——没有来自于任何人、任何书本、 任何人物、任何环境的帮助， 那时你就会处于那种真正无助的状态中，然后某些别的事情就会发生了。 那时你就会开始看到一些东西。
46:08 The questioner says, asks: what will give me the need, the energy, to move in the direction of truth. Direction of truth. That means it is already over there. I am not laughing, I am not disrespectful or cynical, but it is like that – when we use words like ‘direction’ it is already there. It is already preconceived, already existing there, because of your conviction or somebody told you, and so on. Truth is really a pathless land. And that can only exist when fear, and all the rest of it, is not. 这个提问者说，他在问：什么东西可以给予我 欲望和能量，促使我朝着真理的方向前进。 真理的方向。 这意味着真理已经在那里了（笑声） 我不是在嘲笑，我也没有无礼或愤世嫉俗，但这件事就是这样， 当我们使用诸如“方向”这样的词时，这就意味着东西的位置已经确定了。 它已经是预设好的东西了，它已经在那里了， 因为你对它深信不疑，或者某人把它告诉了你，等等。 但「真理」其实是无路之国。 只有当「恐惧」等等这些东西不复存在时，「真理」才会存在。
47:16 2ND QUESTION: I am afraid to change. If I change, what will happen afterwards? I am paralysed by this. Can you talk about this problem? Delighted! （第二个问题）我害怕改变。 如果我改变了，会发生什么呢？ 我被这个问题搞得手足无措了。 你可以谈谈这个问题吗？我很乐意谈！
47:32 I am afraid to change. If I change, what will happen afterwards? I am paralysed by this. Can you talk about this problem? Why is one afraid of change? What do you mean by that word ‘change’? One has lived in this house across the lawn for about nearly 20 years. One becomes attached to that particular room, to the nice furniture up there – right? One becomes attached. That means what you are attached to is what you are. If one is attached to that good old furniture, you are that furniture. So we are afraid to change. I am attached to that room. But fortunately, the speaker travels a great deal – that is only an excuse. 我害怕改变。 如果我改变了，会发生什么呢？ 我被这个问题搞得手足无措了。 你可以谈谈这个问题吗？ 为什么一个人会害怕改变呢？ 你们所说的“改变”这个词是什么意思呢？ 你在这个被草坪环绕的房子里生活了将近20年。 于是你变得执著于这个特定的房间， 执著于房间里的漂亮家具——对吧？ 你会变得有所执著。 这意味着你所执著于的东西，它就是你。 如果你执著于那件漂亮的老家具，那么你就是那件家具。 所以我们害怕改变。 我执著于那个房间。 但幸运的是，演讲者经常旅行——不过这只是借口托词罢了。
49:08 So what does that word imply? Change from ‘what is’ to ‘what should be’ – right? That is one change. Or change according to my old pattern, but remain within the pattern, going across one corner of the field – I say I have moved, I’ve changed, but it is still within the same field, barricaded, barbwired – right? Going north, east, west, south is change. Why do we use that word? Biologically, one is told, there is constant change in the blood, constant movement, change, one cell dies, another cell takes its place, or a series of molecules, and so on. There is this constant change going on physically. And we are afraid to change. Could we drop that word ‘change’? Change implies time – doesn’t it? I am this, I will change to that. Or I have been that and some event will come along, take place, and that event will change me, and so on. Change implies a movement in time – right? We went into the question of time the other day. Should I repeat? Should the speaker go into it again? Time. It is a very complex thing – time, very. I won’t go into it, this is not the occasion. 所以，这个词（改变）暗示了什么呢？ 那就是从“本来真实的模样”变成“应有的模样”——对吧？ 这是一种改变。 或者是根据我旧有模式而来的改变，但这种改变仍旧是落入于旧模式中的， 我穿过了田地的某个角落，然后我说我已经移动了，我已经改变了， 但我仍然在同一片田地中，这片被封锁的、被倒钩铁丝围住的田地——是吧？ 往北走，往东走，往西走，往南走，这就是“改变”了。 为什么我们要使用这个词语呢？ 我们被告知说：从生物学上来讲，血液会持续不断地改变， 持续不断地运动和变化，一个细胞死去了，另一个细胞取而代之， 或者一系列分子微粒等等的变化。 存在着这种身体上的持续不断的改变。 而我们害怕改变。 那么，我们可以丢掉“改变”这个词吗？ “改变”就暗示了「时间」——不是吗？ 我是这样的，而我将会变成那样的。 或者说：我曾经是那个模样，然后发生了一件事情， 这件事将会改变我，等等。 改变就意味着时间中的运动——对吧？ 我们前几天已经探讨过关于「时间」的问题了。 还需要我再重复吗？ 演讲者还需要再说一下它吗？ 关于「时间」的问题。 「时间」是一个非常复杂的东西，非常复杂。 我就不探讨它了，现在不是时候。 所以，如果你可以抛开“改变”这个词，或者“革命”、“突变”这类词
51:35 So if you could drop that word ‘change’, or ‘revolution’, or ‘mutation’, which the speaker has used all these words; if you could drop all those words, then we are only faced with ‘what is’ – right? Not ‘what it should be’. But only face ‘what is’. I am angry. That is ‘what is’. I am violent. That is ‘what is’. But to become politically or religiously non-violent is a change. To become non-violent when I am violent, takes time. In that interval I am sowing the seeds of violence. That is all so simple – right? So I remain with violence, not try to change it. I am angry. That is a fact. There are no excuses for anger. I can find a dozen excuses for hate and anger, but those enquiries in why I get angry is another escape from anger – right? Because I have moved away. So the brain remains with ‘what is’, then see what happens. That is, I am jealous of you – not me – I am jealous of you, because you look so much nicer, cleaner, good taste, you have got good brains – and I am envious of you. Out of that envy comes hate. Envy is part of hate. Envy is part of comparison. I would like to be like you but I can’t. So I become rather antagonised, I feel violent about you. So I remain with ‘what is’. That is, I see I am envious. There it is, I am envious. That envy is not different from me. Right? Envy is me. Right? So I can’t do anything about it. I hold it. I stay with it. Right? Will you – stay with it? Not escape, not to find out the cause, or the reason, or go beyond it. I am envy. And see what takes place. First, there is no conflict, obviously, if I am envious, I am envious. It is only conflict exists when I don’t want to be envious. I wonder if you follow all this? Tant pis, no matter. ——演讲者曾经使用过所有这些词语，如果你可以丢掉 这些词语，那么我们所面对的就只有“真实现状”了——是吧？ 不是“应该怎样”，而只是去面对“事实现状”。 我很愤怒。 这是“真实现状”。 我是暴力的。 这是“真实现状”。 然而要在政治上或宗教上变得“非暴力”，这就成了一种「改变」。 当我暴力的时候，去变得“非暴力”，这需要花费时间。 在这个间隔的时期里，我还是在播种着暴力的种子。 这一切都是如此简单——对吧？ 所以我会和暴力待在一起，而不试图去改变它。 我很愤怒。 这是一个事实。 这种愤怒没有理由借口。 我可以为仇恨和愤怒寻找一大堆的理由借口，但是这些关于“为什么我会愤怒”的询问， 它们就是另一种逃避愤怒的方式——对吧？ 因为我已经离开它了。 因此大脑会和“真实现状”待在一起，然后去看看会发生什么。 换句话说：我很嫉妒你——不是我本人——我很嫉妒你， 因为你看起来比我更漂亮、更干净、更有品位， 你有着聪明的头脑，所以我嫉妒你。 而从这种嫉妒中就会出现憎恨。 嫉妒是憎恨的一部分。嫉妒是比较的一部分。 我想要变得和你一样，但是我做不到。 因此我会变得相当敌对，我会对你有暴力倾向。 所以，我会和这个“真实现状”共处。 也就是说：我看到我是嫉妒的。 嫉妒就在那里，我很嫉妒。 这种「嫉妒」和「我」并没有什么不同。对吧？ 嫉妒就是我。是吧？ 所以我无法对它做任何事情。 于是我怀抱着它。 我和它共处。对吧？ 你会和它共处吗？ 不要逃避，不要去找原因或理由，或者去超越它。 我就是嫉妒的。 然后看看会发生什么。 首先，冲突没有了，这是很显然的，如果我是嫉妒的，那我就是嫉妒的。 只有当我不想要变得嫉妒时，才会有冲突。 我不知道你们是否跟上了这一切？算了，也没关系。
55:24 So if I stay with it, I have got tremendous energy. Right? Energy is like light throwing on something, focused light on something. Which then becomes very clear. And that which is very clear you are not afraid of, paralysed. It is so. You understand? I hope. 所以，如果我能和它待在一起，我就会获得巨大的能量——对吧？ 能量就像是照射在某个物体上的光线——把光线聚焦于某个物体。 然后那个物体就会变得非常清晰明了。 而对于那个清晰明了的东西，你就不会感到害怕和手足无措了。 它就是如此。 你们理解了吗？我希望你们理解了。 所以，这个问题中的重点是：不要逃避，
56:01 So what is important in this question is not to escape, not to make an effort, just to remain with ‘what is’. If I am British, I remain with that. See what happens. How narrow it becomes. Sorry if you are British, sorry, forgive me, or French, or Russian, or whatever it is. The thing itself begins to show its whole content. 也不要去努力，而只是和“真实现状”待在一起。 如果我是英国人，我就保持这个身份。 然后看看会发生什么。看看它会变得多么狭隘。 不好意思，如果你们是英国人的话，很抱歉，请原谅我， 或者如果你是法国人或俄罗斯人，或者无论什么人。 那个东西本身就会开始展现出它全部的内容。
56:34 3RD QUESTION: How does one meet aggression and psychological attack from a close relative from whom one cannot escape? （第三个问题）我们要如何面对 来自于无法避开的近亲的心理侵犯和心理打击？（笑声） 我们要如何面对
56:52 How does one meet aggression and psychological attack from a close relative from whom one cannot escape? Are we all like that? I can’t escape from my guru because, you know, I have committed myself to him or her and I have given up all my money to him. Sir, don’t laugh, this is taking place now. 来自于无法避开的近亲的心理侵犯和心理打击？ 我们全都是这样的吗？ 我无法避开我的古鲁，因为你知道的，我已经把自己奉献给了他（她）， 我已经把我所有的钱都给了他。 先生，请不要笑，这就是如今正在发生的事情。
57:36 Somebody sent an article in French, highly amusing, so laughable, really funny, which says: How To Become a Good Guru! It is very cleverly written, and I hope it will be printed in English. 有人曾寄给我一篇法语的文章，这篇文章非常有趣，非常好笑， 真的很搞笑，文章说：如何成为一名优秀的古鲁！（笑声） 整篇文章写得很聪明（笑）， 我希望它可以用英语印刷出版。
58:07 Psychological attack – what does that mean to be attacked psychologically, inwardly? When you are with a close friend, or relative, psychologically, inwardly, there is all this pressure going on between the two. You know all this, I don’t have to tell you. Always trying to do something about the other, attacking subtly, physically or through innuendo, or through subtle word, gesture – you are always trying to push the other into a certain pattern. Right? This is common to you, isn’t it? Now the questioner says, what is one to do? I am living with you in the same house and you are bombarding me, I am bombarding you, not only with words and gesture but even a look, a feeling of irritation, and so on. How will you, what will you do not to be wounded, not to be pushed around psychologically? You may depend on that person financially. You may depend on that person for various psychological reasons. And the moment you depend you become a slave – right? The moment you are attached – then you are a goner! Don’t look, if I may suggest, at somebody else, but let’s look at ourselves. If I am attached to you as the audience, then I’m lost. Then I depend on you for my satisfaction, comfort, reputation, for my physical wellbeing, too. But if I don’t depend on you, I have to find out why I don’t depend on you. That means not only on you, I don’t depend on anything. I want to find out if it’s true. I may not show it to my close relative. I want to find out for myself whether it is possible living in the same room, same house, husband, wife, relative and so on, to be totally impregnable – not build a wall around oneself, that is fairly simple. You understand? I can build a wall round myself and say: sorry, and be polite about it, soft about it, and very affectionate, but it is still a wall. That means limitation. So is it possible for me to live vulnerably? Go on, think it out, sirs. And yet not be wounded. Highly sensitive, not be in any way responding according to my attachment. You understand? Go on, sirs, think it out. And if one is dependent on another financially, that becomes rather dangerous. Most of us are in this position. Do you want me to go on with this? 心理打击， 遭到了心理上的打击，内心的打击，这是什么意思呢？ 当你和一位亲密的朋友或亲戚待在一起时，你的心理上， 你的内心，会有所有那些你们双方之间的压力。 你们都知道这些，不必我来告诉你们。 你们总是会试图对对方做一些事情，对他（她）进行微妙的打击， 身体上的攻击，或者通过暗讽影射，通过隐晦微妙的话语或手势来打击对方， 你总是在试图将对方逼入某个特定的模式中——对吧？ 这是你们的共同点，难道不是吗？ 而现在，这位提问者问：那么我们该怎么办呢？ 我和你住在同一幢房子里，然后你打击我， 我也打击你，不仅仅是用言语和动作来打击，甚至可以用一个眼神， 一种恼怒感等等 来打击对方。 那么你要怎么样，你该怎么做，才能不受伤害， 不在心理上被欺负呢？ 你也许会在经济上依赖于那个人。 你也许会出于各种心理上的原因而依赖于那个人。 而一旦你有所依赖，你就变成了一个奴隶——对吧？ 一旦你有所执著，你就已经无可救药了！ 如果我可以建议下的话，请不要去看别人，而是让我们看看自己吧。 如果我把你们当作听众并执著于你们，那么我就迷失了。 然后我就会依赖于你们来获得我的满足、舒适、 名声，也包括物质上的幸福。 但如果我并不依赖于你们，那我就必须去发现为什么我不依赖于你们。 这意味着，我不仅不依赖于你们，我也不依赖于任何东西。 我想要去搞清楚是否我真的不依赖了。 我或许不会向我的近亲展示出这种不依赖。 我只想要自己去发现：我们是否可能生活在 同一个房子、同一个房间里——丈夫、妻子、亲人等等—— 却能够完全地不受影响？不是在自己周围建造起围墙——这是相当简单的。 你们理解了吗？ 我可以围绕着自己建造一道围墙，然后说很抱歉，并礼貌地、 温柔地，非常深情地处理这道围墙，但它仍旧是一道围墙。 而围墙就意味着局限。 所以我是否可能“柔弱”地生活？ 继续，先生们，仔细想想它。 同时却不会受到伤害。 高度的敏感，不会因为我的执著依赖有任何的反应。 你们明白了吗？ 继续，先生们，好好想想它。 但如果一个人在经济上依赖于别人， 这就会变得相当危险了。 我们大多数人都处于这种境地。 你们想要我继续讲下去吗？
1:03:12 If I am dependent financially on you – God forbid, I am not – but if I am dependent on you, what happens between us? You then have the whip in your hand. Not only financially, but go further into it. Is it possible to live with another, on whom I am financially dependent, and know I am dependent because I can’t do anything else – right? I can’t start a new career. If I am quite young, I could probably do it, but if I am 60, 50, or even 70 or 90, then you can’t do it, start a new career. So then what shall I do? Go on, sirs, I am not... What will you do? 如果我在经济上依赖于你——希望不会如此，我并不依赖你—— 但如果我依赖于你，那么我俩之间会发生什么？ 那时你手中就有了鞭子。 不仅仅是经济上的鞭子，还会更进一步。 那么，我是否可能和另一个我在经济上依赖于他的人生活在一起 心里清楚我是依赖于他的，因为我无法做任何其他事情——对吧？ 我无法开启一段新的职业生涯了。 如果我还很年轻，我或许可以，但如果我已经60岁，50岁， 或者甚至70岁或90岁了，那么你就不可以了，你无法再开启新的职业生涯了。 那么我该怎么做呢？ 继续，先生们，我可不是在 你会怎么做呢？ 所以，我要在哪里画上一道依赖的界线呢？
1:04:42 So where do I draw the line of dependency? You understand my question? Psychologically, I won’t depend. For myself, I won’t depend on anybody, or on anything, or on any past experience, and all the rest of that rubbish. There is no dependence. But if one is dependent financially, where do I draw the line, so that, being rather oldish, you say, ‘Sorry, I have to put up with it’. Right? I have to put up with it, I can’t start a new game. So how far, how deep is that line? You understand my question? Is it just superficial? You understand? Or the line has great depth? Obviously, very superficial. Oh, I don’t mind. Right? So what is important in this question is, if one understands it rightly: freedom. Freedom is absolutely necessary. But I depend on the milkman, on the supermarket, postman, and so on: otherwise psychologically I don’t depend. I must be very clear on this. So I draw the line very, very superficially, without any depth. 你们明白我的问题吗？ 心理上我不会再有所依赖了。 对我来说，我不会再依赖任何人、任何事物、 任何过往的经验，等等所有这些无用的东西。 我不再有什么依赖了。 但如果我在经济上有所依赖，那我应该在哪里画上这道界线呢？这样的话当你年纪很大的时候， 你就可以说，“对不起，我不得不忍受它。”——对吧？ 我不得不忍受它，因为我无法再开始一个新的游戏。 所以，这道界线应该有多远、多深呢？ 你们理解我的问题吗？ 它只是表面的、很浅的依赖吗？ 你理解了吗？ 还是说那道界线是深层次的？ 很显然，它是很表面很浅的。 噢，我并不介意这些。对吧？ 所以这个问题中重要的是 ——如果你正确地理解了它——重要的是「自由」。 「自由」是绝对必要的。 但我需要依赖于送奶工，依赖于超市，依赖于邮递员等等： 但除此之外，我在心理上是没有依赖的。 我必须要非常清楚这一点。 所以我会画一道非常非常表面的、毫无深度的依赖的界线。
1:07:07 Oh, Lord! 噢，上帝啊！
1:07:17 4TH QUESTION: Some people seem to pick parts of what you say that fits their problems or interest and then discard the rest. What do you say to this? （第四个问题）有一些人似乎只挑选了你话语中的某些部分 ——那些适用于他们自身问题、或符合他们利益的部分，然后把其余部分都丢弃掉了。 你对此有何看法？
1:07:32 Some people seem to pick parts of what you say that fit their problems or interest and then discard the rest. What do you say to this? I don’t have to say anything about it. What do you say? We are dealing, aren’t we, together with the whole of life, not just part of life, whole of it, both psychological world, which is immense, not just physical reactions and nervous responses, and memories, and all that – that is part of the psychological structure – but it is much deeper than all that. If you can go that deeply. So we are dealing not only with the psychological world, but the violence that exists in the world. The tremendous violence that is going on, killing for the sake of killing, for the fun of killing, not only with the gun, but also destroying people when they obey somebody. Careful, please. That means obedience – right? It is a dangerous subject – please, listen carefully, not take part of it and say, yes, he is against the army. We are dealing with the whole phenomena of life, not parts of it. Which the scientists are doing, which the doctors are doing, which the priests are doing, and the educators are doing. We are concerned with the entirety of human life. And if you like to pick parts of it, it is up to you. And that part will be satisfactory, or say, ‘It suits me, that is enough for me’. That is also perfectly right. But if we are concerned with the whole of life, not only one’s own particular life, but also the life of human beings throughout the world, the immense poverty, incalculable poverty, of which you don’t know, the indignity of it, the corruption of it. And all the religious circus – sorry to use that word – all the religious nonsense that is going on in the world, tremendous big business, enormous wealth, Rolls Royce’s, Rolls. You should read this article or memo on How To Become a Good Guru. The tremendous wealth of these people! And if you are concerned with the whole humanity, which is you are also humanity – right? You are humanity, not humanity is there, you are different. You are humanity. Not British, French, Russian. We are human beings first, professionals after, first you are human beings. And we human beings have separated ourselves and that is why there is chaos in the world. It is only war in Lebanon, who cares! It is a war in the Far East, Afghanistan – awful Russians, and so on. But if you feel deeply that you are the entire humanity, because you suffer as they suffer; you shed tears, they do too. You are anxious, you laugh, you have pain, and they, too, have all this, whether they are rich or poor. They are corrupt and so are we in a different way. They are corrupt because they want money, food, and they will do anything to have food and money, anything. So we are the entire humanity. If one realises that marvellous thing, which is the truth, then you will not kill another, then there is no division between this country and that country, then your whole life is different. If that is what you want. If you want to pick parts of it, go to it. Nobody is putting pressure on you not to pick a part of it to satisfy your little demands, or big demands. But if one actually, deeply, honestly, without all the ideological nonsense, the real fact that we are entire humanity: prayers, non-believers, the Muslims, the Hindus, the Buddhists, the Christians – we are one. We all go through tremendous travail. Therefore this search for individual freedom, individual becoming, and so on, becomes rather childish – for me, anyhow. 有一些人似乎只挑选了你话语中的某些部分——那些适用于他们自身问题、 或符合他们利益的部分，然后把其余部分都丢弃掉了。 你对此有何看法？ 我对此没有任何看法。 你们有什么看法？ 我们正在一起处理整个生活的问题，不是吗？ 不只是生活的一部分，而是全部的生活——既包括心理世界的生活 心理世界是极其巨大的，它不只是身体的反应和神经上的反应， 以及记忆，等等这些，这些只是人类心理结构的一部分， 心理世界远比这一切更加深奥。 如果你可以深入探究它的话。 所以我们不仅是在处理心理世界的问题， 同样也要处理存在于这个世界上的暴力问题。 这个世界上正在发生着的惊人的暴力，为了杀戮而去杀戮， 为了杀戮的乐趣而去杀戮，不仅是用枪炮去杀戮， 还通过让人类服从他人，从而摧毁人类。 这里请仔细小心一点。 这意味着「服从」——对吧？ 这是一个很危险的主题，请你们认真听好了， 不要断章取义地说：是的，他在反对军队。 我们正在处理的是生活全部的现象，而不只是它的某些部分。 处理部分是科学家所做的事，是医生们所做的事， 是牧师们所做的事，是教育者所做的事。 我们关心的是人类生活的全部。 而如果你只想要取其中的某些部分，这取决于你。 而那一部分将会是令人满意的，或者你会说“它很适合我， 它对我来说足够了”。 这也是完全可以的。 但如果我们关心的是生活的全部，不只是某人自己特定的生活， 也包括全世界人类的生活： 那惊人的贫穷，数不尽的贫穷——这些你们并不知道， 贫穷导致的侮辱，贫穷导致的堕落。 以及所有那些宗教“闹剧”——很抱歉使用这个词语—— 所有正在这个世界上发生着的宗教的荒谬愚蠢之事， 宗教已经变成了一桩巨大的生意，数量惊人的财富，劳斯莱斯汽车，劳斯莱斯。 你们应该读一下这篇文章或者说是备忘录：关于如何成为一名优秀的古鲁。 这些人全都富得流油！ 而如果你关心的是全人类 ——也就是你，你也是人类，对吧？ 你就是人类，而不是人类在那里，而你有所不同。 你就是「人类」。 你并不是英国人、法国人、俄罗斯人。 我们首先是人类，然后才是专业人士，首先你是一个人。 而我们人类已经分裂了自己， 这就是为什么世界如此混乱的原因。 那只是一场发生在黎巴嫩的战争，谁在乎呢？ 它只是一场发生在远东地区，发生在阿富汗的战争，可怕的俄罗斯人，等等。 但如果你深刻地感受到你就是全人类 ——因为你会受苦，他们也会受苦；你会流泪，他们也会流下眼泪。 你会焦虑、欢笑、痛苦， 他们也都有这些东西——不管他们是富有还是贫穷。 他们腐败堕落，而我们也在以不同的方式腐败堕落。 他们腐败堕落，因为他们想要金钱、食物， 他们愿意做任何事情来获取食物和金钱——任何事情。 所以我们就是全人类。 如果我们能意识到这件奇妙的事情——它是一个事实—— 那你就不会去杀死别人，那时就不会有 这个国家和那个国家的划分，那时你的整个生活都会变得不同。 如果这就是你想要的。 如果你想要挑选其中的某些部分，那么就去挑吧。 没有人给你压力说不让你挑选它的某一部分 来满足你那渺小的需求或巨大的需求。 但如果我们可以实际地、深刻地、真诚地去对面它，没有所有那些 意识形态上的荒谬愚蠢，那么真正的事实就是：我们就是全人类， 无论是祈祷者、无信仰者、穆斯林、 印度教徒、佛教徒、基督教徒，我们都是一体的。 我们全都会经历巨大的艰难痛苦。 因此去寻求个人自由， 寻求个人的成长变化，等等——这些就变得相当幼稚了——至少对我来说如此。
1:15:16 5TH QUESTION: There are many accounts of people following a particular discipline, who come upon the immeasurable. Are they self-deluded? Or have they come to this somehow despite their efforts? Or is there another explanation? （第五个问题）有很多人通过遵循 某种特定的修炼法而发现了那个「不可度量」的事物。 他们这是自我欺骗吗？ 还是说他们的确以某种方式达到了它——但这和他们的努力无关？ 或者说，还有其他的解释？
1:15:38 There are many accounts of people following a particular discipline, who come upon the immeasurable. Are they self-deluded? Or have they come to this somehow despite their efforts? Or is there another explanation? 有很多人通过遵循 某种特定的修炼法而发现了那个不可度量的事物。 他们这是自我欺骗吗？ 还是说他们的确以某种方式达到了它——但这和他们的努力无关？ 或者说，还有其他的解释？
1:16:07 It is nothing to do with disciplines, with effort. You may disagree, you are perfectly right to disagree or agree, but let us both understand what we are talking about, each of us. You may belong to a particular discipline – Buddhist, Hindu, Tibetan, Christian, certain abbot, certain guru, all the rest of it – follow certain discipline, order, do everything everyday at 2 o’clock in the morning, or early morning, pray, do this – discipline. And through that discipline, some people say they have understood or realised the immeasurable – right? The questioner says, those who come upon the immeasurable, are they self-deluded? What do you say? The word ‘discipline’, according to the dictionary, means to learn – to learn. The disciple learns, not from a master – learns. That is, he is learning, not conforming, not imitating, not obeying. He is learning. Learning itself has its own discipline – right? I don’t know if you understand. 这件事无关修炼法，无关努力。 你们或许不同意，你们完全可以不同意 或者同意，但让我们双方都能理解我们正在谈论的东西，我们每个人都能理解。 你或许会专注于某种修炼法：佛教的、印度教的、西藏人的、 基督教的、某个男修道院院长的、某个古鲁等等的修炼法， 去遵循某种练习或指示，每天去完成所有的练习 ——在每天凌晨两点，或者清晨的时候，去祈祷，去做这种练习——各种修炼法。 而通过这种修炼法，有人说 他们已经理解或了悟了那个「不可度量」的事物——对吧？ 而这位提问者问： 那些发现了这种不可度量事物的人，他们是不是在自欺？ 你们对此怎么看？ “修炼（discipline）”这个词，根据词典上的意思， 它的意思是「学习」——去学习。 弟子会学习——不是从上师那里学习——他自己去学习。 换句话说，他正在学习，他不是在遵从，不是在模仿，也不是在服从。 他正在学习。 学习本身就有其自身的“修炼”——对吧？ 我不知道你们是否理解了。
1:18:18 There is this quality of learning, not memorising and repeating. Right? That is, most of us accumulate knowledge and memory to do certain functions, certain skills, and so on. So learning there is implied accumulation, and according to that accumulation of knowledge, acting. And that knowledge can be increased more and more, or becomes duller and duller, more and more accustomed – right? So most of us are memorising in order to have a skill. To live in this modern society you must have some kind of skill: in the factory, in the mines, in the business, or at the altar, some kind of effort, some kind of discipline there. And they keep on repeating day after day, day after day, day after day. You see them in the churches, and temples, and mosques, repeating the same old stuff. And it is not learning. They may say, ‘Yes, we are learning’ but that is rather meaningless if you repeat, repeat, repeat. 存在着这种学习的品质，它不是去记忆和重复。 对吧？ 换句话说，我们大多数人会积累知识和记忆 去完成某些职责，某些技术工作等等。 所以「学习」在那里就意味着「积累」， 然后我们根据那种知识的积累而行动。 而那种知识可以不断增加变得越来越多， 或者变得越来越愚钝，越来越惯常思维——是吧？ 所以我们大多数人去记忆是为了获得某种技能。 生活在这个现代社会中，你必须要有某种技能： 工厂里工作的技能，矿井工作的技能，生意场上的技能， 或者在讲坛上的技能，你需要某种努力，某种修炼。 于是人们会日复一日、日复一日、日复一日地不断重复它。 你会在那些教堂、寺庙和清真寺里看到这些人， 他们在反复念诵着同样的老掉牙的东西。 而这并不是学习。 他们或许会说，“是的，我们正在学习”， 但如果你只是重复、重复再重复，这就毫无意义了。 所以，修炼法——修炼就是遵从、模仿、
1:20:03 So can discipline, which is conforming, imitating, obeying, towing the line, can that lead to the immeasurable? Immeasurable means that which is not being measured, which cannot be measured. Right? It is beyond all measurement, all delineation, the line. It seems, for the speaker, that is not possible because the brain then is conditioned to a routine, to a certain particular form, and the very essence of that limitless to comprehend – not comprehend it – to see what it is, requires immense, incalculable freedom. 服从、遵守规定——它可以让我们达到那「不可度量」的事物吗？ 「不可度量」的意思就是那个无法量度的、 无法被测量的事物——对吧？ 它超越了所有的量度，所有的描述，轮廓。 所以在演讲者看来，修炼法是不可能达到它的， 因为那时大脑会受限于某种例行公事， 受限于某种特定的形式，而那种无限之物的本质 则是要去理解——不是去理解它—— 而是去看清事实真相，但这需要巨大的、不可估量的「自由」。
1:21:27 Therefore, what is freedom? Not all this. Freedom. There are two kinds of freedom. Freedom from. Freedom per se, for itself. I can be free from fear. There can be freedom from fear – right? That freedom is conditioned because it is free from something. And is there a freedom which is by itself, the thing itself? And it is only that freedom, which requires compassion, love, and that freedom is that supreme intelligence, which has nothing to do with the intelligence of thought. And to come to that, one has to be free from all fears, and all the rest of it. If that interests you, you’ve to put your energy into it. You have to put your life, your house in order, complete order, not neatness, not polishing the furniture – that is part of it. But the house, the inner house, the deep house that has no foundation, no roof, no shelter. You can’t invite the immeasurable – it then becomes a plaything. You can’t lay down the path for another to follow. It is not to be put into words. We measure everything with words. We call it the immeasurable. It certainly is not. It is something entirely different. 所以什么是「自由」呢？ 它不是所有这些东西。 自由。 存在着两种类型的自由。 一种是摆脱某物的自由。 还有一种是「自由」本身，自由其自身的存在。 我可以摆脱掉恐惧。 我们可以有摆脱恐惧的自由——对吧？ 但这种自由是受限的，因为它只是摆脱某个事物的自由。 那么是否存在着一种自我独立存在的自由，那种自由本身呢？ 只有这种自由——这种自由需要慈悲、爱 这种自由就是至高的智慧 ——至高的智慧和思想智力没有任何关系。 而要达到这种至高的智慧， 我们就必须摆脱掉所有的恐惧，等等这些东西。 如果你对此有兴趣，你就必须为此倾注你的能量。 你必须要让你的生活、你的“房子”变得有序，井然的秩序， 不只是干净整洁，不只是把家具擦得很亮——这只是它的一部分。 而是房子，内在的房子， 内心深处的房子——这种房子是没有地基、没有屋顶、没有遮蔽物的。 你是无法邀请那个「不可度量」的事物的——那样的话它就变成了一个玩物。 你是无法给别人规定一条道路让别人去走的。 它是无法诉诸语言文字的。 我们会用语言文字来度量一切事物。 我们把它称为“不可度量之物”。但毫无疑问它不是。 它是某种截然不同的东西。
1:24:04 Sorry. I had better stop. May we get up? 不好意思，我得结束演讲了。 我们都可以站起来了吧？ 「机器的噪音再次响起」（笑声）