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BR85T3 - The relationship of freedom to self-interest



1:03 Krishnamurti: Those people have appealed for co-operation and for money and also may the speaker join in that appeal. I appeal to you to talk over things together. 那些人在恳求合作运动和资金， 而演讲者或许也要恳求一下了。 我恳求你们可以一起来讨论这些事情。
1:34 We have talked about time, thought and fear. And as we said, this is not a lecture about a particular subject intended to inform or instruct. This is a conversation between you and the speaker. Together we are going to look at all the things that we consider are important in our life, our daily life, not only our life as a businessman, or a doctor, or a professor, or a scientist, and so on, or if you want to belong to that group, gurus. We are not concerned about others but rather we are going to have a conversation in which there is no authority, in which there is no specialist. We are all laymen. And together we are going to talk over what we have done in the past two talks and questions and answers, and also we are going to talk over this morning – which is rather rainy and windy, I am sorry, it was a lovely day yesterday – and we are going to talk over together about freedom, self-interest, pleasure, pain, sorrow and love, this morning. And if there is time, we will also talk about death, if that is all right with you. 我们已经讨论了「时间」、「思想」和「恐惧」。 而就如我们所说的：这并不是一次关于某个特定主题的讲课， 旨在告知你们什么或指示你们什么。 这是一场你们和演讲者之间的对话。 我们将会一起来审视一下所有那些我们所认为的 生活中重要的东西，我们的日常生活，不只是我们作为 一个商人、医生、教授， 或科学家等等的生活，或者你会想要归属于某个团体、某些古鲁。 但我们关心的并不是别人， 而是要进行一场 没有权威、也没有专家的谈话。 我们都是外行。 而我们将会一起来讨论 我们在过去两场演讲和两场问答会中所讲过的东西， 此外，今天早上我们也会来讨论 ——但今天雨大风大，我感到很遗憾，其实昨天天气很好—— 而今天早上，我们将一起来讨论一下「自由」、 「利己主义」、「快感」、「痛苦」、「苦难」和「爱」。 而如果我们还有时间的话，我们也会来谈论一下「死亡」 ——如果你们不介意的话。
4:22 As we said previously, we are a rather serious group, at least the speaker is. He has been at it for the last seventy years and more. And just attending a couple of talks or reading some printed words is not going to solve our problems, it is not going to help us. And the speaker is not trying to help you. Please be convinced of that, assured that the speaker is no authority and therefore he is not a person to whom you can turn to be helped. There are others who might help you. And if you want to be helped, then, if one may point out most respectfully, you leave your problems to be solved to others, and they will solve them according to their desires, self-interest, their power, their position, and all that business. So we are ordinary laymen talking over together. We are going to enquire together, face the facts, not the ideas about the fact but facts. And not ideologies, they are meaningless. Not about theories, speculations – who is illumined, who is not, who is what? – nearer God than you, but together we are going to go into this question of freedom, what relationship has freedom to time and time to thought and action. Because we live by action, everything we do is action, not a particular action, either in the business world or in the scientific world, or in the speculative world called philosophy. But rather we are going to look at things as they are. 就如我们之前说过的：我们是一群相当认真严肃的人 ——至少演讲者是这样。 他在过去的70多年里一直在做这件事。 但只是参加几次演讲，或者阅读一些印刷出来的文字， 将无法解决我们的问题，它不会对我们有什么帮助。 而演讲者也并没有试图帮助你。 请相信这一点，请确信演讲者并不是权威， 因此他并不是一个你可以从他那里寻得帮助的人。 其他人或许可以帮助你。 而如果你也想要得到帮助的话——如果允许某人尊敬地指出这一点—— 你就会把你的那些问题丢给别人去解决， 而他们将会根据自己的欲望、 利己主义、权力、地位等等这些东西来解决这些问题。 所以我们都是普通的外行，正在一起讨论问题。 我们将会一起去探询， 去面对事实，不是关于事实的想法，而是那些事实。 不是那些意识形态的东西——那些东西是没有什么意义的。 不是那些理论、猜测——谁开悟了，谁没有 谁是什么什么？——他比你离上帝更近，而是我们将会一起 去探究这个关于「自由」的问题： 自由和时间有什么关系？而时间与思想和行动的关系又是什么？ 因为我们都是依靠行动而生活的，我们所做的一切都是「行动」， 不是某个特定的行为——不管是在商业世界中的行为， 还是在科学世界中的行为，或者是在推测思辨的世界——也就是所谓的“哲学世界”——中的行为。 而是我们将要去如实地观察事物。
7:28 There is a great deal of anarchy in the world, chaos, disorder, and who has brought this about? This is our first question. Who is responsible for all the mess that we have in the world, economically, socially, politically, and so on, all leading up to war? There are wars going on, terrible wars, now. And do we each one of us realise, not intellectually but actually, in our daily life, the house in which we live, not only the house built by man outside, but the house inside. Do we realise how disorderly it is, contradictory, how very little freedom we have? That word ‘freedom’ also implies love, not just freedom to do what you like, when you like, where you like. But we are living on this earth, all of us, and each one is seeking his own freedom, his own expression, his own fulfilment, his own path to enlightenment, whatever that be. His own particular form of religion, superstition, belief, faith, and all the things that go with it, with authority, hierarchical authority – politically, religiously, and so on. So we have very little freedom. And that word, which is so freely used by every psychopath and every human being, whether he lives in Russia, where the tyranny is appalling, or in so-called democratic world, every human being inwardly, consciously or unconsciously, needs freedom, like every tree in the world needs freedom to grow, to have that sense of quality of dignity, love. 这个世界陷入于惊人的无政府状态，充满了混乱、 失序，那么是谁带来了这一切呢？ 这是我们的第一个问题。 谁要对这个世界上我们所有的混乱负责呢？ 经济上的、社会上的、政治上等等的混乱——所有这些混乱导致了战争。 如今，战争正在持续着，那些可怕骇人的战争。 而我们每个人在日常生活中是否意识到了——不仅是思想智力上意识到，而是切实地意识到—— 我们所居住的“房子”， 不仅是人类所建造的外在的房子，也包括我们内心的“房子”。 我们是否意识到了这个“房子”有多么混乱和矛盾， 我们又是多么的不自由？ 「自由」这个词同样也意味着「爱」， 它不只是能够随时随地做你喜欢事情的自由。 而是：我们，我们所有人生活在这个地球上， 我们每个人都在寻找他自己的自由，他的自我表达， 他的自我实现，他自己通往开悟的道路——不管“开悟”是什么东西。 他自己特定的宗教、迷信、信仰、信念， 以及所有随之而来的东西，那种权威， 分等级的权威——政治上、宗教上等等的权威。 所以我们其实没有什么自由。 而「自由」这个词被每一个精神变态者如此随意地使用， 每一个人，无论他生活在俄罗斯也好 ——那里有着严重的专制暴政——还是生活在所谓的“民主世界”， 每一个人内心，有意识或无意识地都需要自由， 就像这个世界上的每一棵树，它们需要自由才能成长， 才能感到尊严的品质，才能感受到「爱」。 而「自由」和「利己主义」的关系是什么呢？
11:02 And what is the relationship of freedom to self-interest? Please, we’re talking things over together, you’re not, if I may point out, listening to a speaker, listening to a man on the platform. He is not important at all. And the speaker really means this, he is not important, the speaker. But perhaps you might give your ear to what he says, as two friends talking over things very seriously. We are asking what is the relationship between freedom and self-interest? Where do you draw the line between freedom and self-interest? And what is self-interest? What is its relationship to thought and to time? Please, all these questions are involved in freedom. Bearing in mind that freedom is not fulfilling one’s own ambitions, greed, envy, and so on. What is the relationship of self-interest with regard to freedom? You know what self-interest is? Self-interest may hide under every stone of our life – right? Are we talking together? Are you quite sure we are talking together? Not somebody higher up but we are all sitting on the same level. 请注意，我们正在一起讨论这些东西，如果允许我指出的话： 你们并不只是在听演讲者说话，听讲台上的这个人说话。 这个人一点儿也不重要。 演讲者是说真的，这个演讲者，他真的不重要。 但你们或许可以认真注意听他所说的东西， 就像两个朋友在一起非常认真地讨论事情一样。 我们正在问：「自由」和「利己主义」的关系是什么？ 你会哪里画上一道「自由」和「利己主义」之间的界线？ 什么是「利己主义」？ 而「利己主义」和思想、和时间的关系又是什么？ 请注意，在「自由」之中就包含了所有这些问题。 请牢记在心：那就是「自由」并不是去满足我们自己的野心、 贪婪、嫉妒等等。 「利己主义」和「自由」的关系是什么呢？ 你们知道「利己主义」是什么吗？ 「利己主义」也许就隐藏在我们生活的每一个角落里——对吧？ 我们正在一起交谈吗？ 你们真的确信我们是在一起交谈吗？ 不是某人高高在上，而是我们彼此之间是平级的。
13:46 What is self-interest? Can one consciously, deliberately enquire into that? How deep, how superficial, where it is necessary, where it totally, completely, has no place at all? You understand my question? We are together questioning. Self-interest has brought about a great deal of confusion in the world, a great deal of disorder, confusion, conflict. Whether that self-interest be identified with a country, with a community, with a family, or with God, with the beliefs, the faiths, and so on, it is all self-interest, seeking enlightenment – for God’s sake, as though you can seek it. Also in that search there is the self-interest, and also there is self-interest when you build a house, have insurance, mortgages. And the self-interest is encouraged commercially. And also by all religions: they talk about liberation but self-interest first. And we have to live in this world, we have to function, have to earn money, have children, be married or not married. And living in this world of the twentieth century, how deep or how superficial, is our self-interest? It is important to enquire into this. Self-interest divides people – right? We and they, you and I, my interest opposed to your interest, my family interests oppose your family interests, your country, my country in which I have invested a great deal of emotion and physical interest for which I am willing to fight and kill, which is war. And we invest our interest in ideas, faith, beliefs, dogmas, in rituals, and so on – this whole cycle. At the root of it there is a great deal of self-interest. 什么是「利己主义」？ 我们可以清楚地、小心翼翼地去探询一下它吗？ 这种「利己主义」有多么深刻或多么肤浅表面，它在哪些地方是必需的， 在哪些地方则是完全、彻底地不需要的？ 你们明白我的问题吗？我们正在一起提问。 利己主义已经给这个世界带来了大量的混乱、 大量的动乱、困惑和冲突。 不管那种利己主义是认同于某个国家的、 某个群体的、某个家庭的，还是认同于上帝、信仰、 信念等等东西，它都是利己主义，寻求开悟 看在上帝的份上……就好像你可以去寻找它一样。 在那种寻找中同样也有利己主义， 而当你建造一幢房子，买保险，去抵押贷款的时候，这也是利己主义。 利己主义在商业上得到了鼓励。 所有的宗教也在鼓励它， 这些宗教谈论自由解脱，但利己主义是放在首位的。 我们必须要生活在这个世界上，我们必须要履行职责， 必须要挣钱，生儿育女，去结婚或者不结婚。 而生活在这个二十世纪的世界里，我们的利己主义有多么的深刻， 或者多么的肤浅表面呢？ 探询这一点是很重要的。 因为「利己主义」分裂了人类——是吧？ “我们”和“他们”，“你”和“我”，我的利益和你的利益有冲突， 我的家庭利益和你的家庭利益有冲突，你的国家， 我的国家，在其中我已经投入了大量的感情 和物质利益，而我愿意为此去战斗和杀戮——也就是战争。 我们也会将兴趣利益投入到那些理念、信念、 信仰、教条、宗教仪式等等中去——这整个循环过程。 而它的根源则是大量的利己主义。
17:38 Now, can one live in this world daily, clearly, with self-interest where it is necessary – please, I am using this word carefully – where it is physically necessary, and psychologically, inwardly, it is totally abandoned? Is that possible? You understand? Are we together? Is it possible for each one of us living here in a very, very complex society, competitive, divided by agreement and disagreement, faith opposing another faith, this great division that is going on, not only individually but collectively, and living in this world, where do we draw the line between self-interest and no self-interest whatsoever psychologically? Can we do that? You can talk about it endlessly, as we like to go to talks and lectures and listen to somebody, but here we have to observe together, you have to not only listen to each other verbally but also deeply, inwardly, find out, extensively, not just my self-interest, extensively, wholly, where self-interest lies. And inwardly, psychologically, can one live without any kind of muttering of self-interest, of the self, the ‘me’, which is the essence of self-interest? Another can’t explain, or say: this is self-interest, this is not self-interest, that would be terrible. But one can find out for oneself, either very carefully enquiring, step by step, hesitantly, not coming to any conclusion and find out for oneself. Because there is nobody who is going to help us. I think this we must be completely assured of: nobody is going to help us. They may pretend and you may pretend, but the actuality is: after these two and half million years or 40,000 years we are still seeking help, and we are stuck. We are coming to the end of our tether. 那么我们能否每天清楚明白地生活在这个世界， 在必要的时候拿出利己主义——请注意，我是很小心地在使用这个词—— 出于物质上的需要，你可以利己主义，但与此同时，心理上、 在内心，却能够完全地舍弃利己主义？ 这可能吗？ 你们理解吗？ 我们都理解它了吗？ 我们每个人是否可能生活在这个非常非常复杂的社会 ——这个社会充满了竞争，被分歧争论所割裂， 一种宗教信仰对抗另一种宗教信仰，这种巨大的割裂正在发生着， 不仅是个体之间的割裂，也包括集体之间的割裂， 而生活在这个世界，我们要在哪里画一道界线， 来区分「利己主义」和心理上的「无利己主义」呢？ 我们能够这样做吗？ 你们可以无止境地谈论它——就像我们喜欢去听演讲和讲课， 去听别人讲话，但在这里，我们必须要一起去观察， 你们不仅要在口头文字上聆听彼此，同样也要在内心深处、 在心理上去广泛地发现那种利己主义，不只是我的利己主义， 而是广泛存在的、所有那些利己主义的藏身之所。 而我们能否在内心、在心理上， 不带任何利己主义的低语而生活， 不带任何自我和“我”的低语而生活？——自我和“我”就是利己主义的实质。 别人是无法解释它，或者说“这是利己主义， 这不是利己主义”的——这将是很可怕的事。 但我们可以亲自去发现， 要么是非常小心地、一步一步地去探询， 你是踌躇犹豫的，不去追求任何结论，而是亲自去发现。 因为没有人会帮助我们。 我认为我们必须完全确信这一点：即没有人会来帮助我们。 他们也许会假装帮助我们，而你们也许假装得到了帮助，然而事实上， 在经过了250万年或4万年以后， 我们仍旧在寻求帮助，并陷入了困境。 我们已经到了走投无路的地步。
22:05 And in the enquiry into self-interest we have to go into the question also: what is freedom and freedom implies love, freedom does not mean irresponsibility, doing exactly what one wants which has brought about such a mess in the world. And also, what relationship is self-interest to thought? We went into the question of time the other day, and also thought, thinking. Shall we go into it briefly, what time and thought – need we? It is no good repeating it over and over again, it gets rather monotonous, for the speaker at least. So he has to vary the words, the special phrasing, the silence between the phrases, all that is implied not to be bored for the speaker. But if you merely listen to words, words, words, and not act, then we will be left only with ashes. 而在探询利己主义的过程中，我们也应该来探究一下这个问题： 即什么是「自由」，「自由」意味着「爱」，「自由」并不意味着 不负责任，为所欲为 ——这种“自由”已经给这个世界带来了如此大的混乱。 以及利己主义和思想的关系是什么？ 前几天，我们探讨了关于「时间」的问题，还探讨了「思想」、「思考」。 我们可以简要地来回顾一下它吗？什么是「时间」和「思想」——需要吗？ 其实一遍遍地重复一个东西是没意义的， 这会变得相当单调乏味——至少对演讲者来说是如此。 所以演讲者必须要改换一些词语，改变特定的措辞、 措词之间的「寂静」，所有这些都是为了不让演讲者感到无聊厌倦。 但如果你们只是聆听那些文字、文字， 还是文字，而不行动起来的话，那么我们就完了。
24:13 Time, as we said, is part of evolution of the brain, two and a half million years. Time is also sunrise, sunset. Time also is hope – I hope, one hopes. Time also is remembrance. Time is also all the knowledge, experience that one has gathered, which is knowledge, both scientific, personal, collective, racial, and so on. Time is tradition. And thought is based on knowledge, which is the outcome of experience, whether that experience be personal, collective, racial or traditional, it is still knowledge. And knowledge is always limited either in the infinite future or infinite past, because knowledge is essentially put together through experience, adding more and more to what already has been known. That is what the scientists are doing. That is what we are doing, adding more and more. So knowledge is always limited, always. The past, present and future. And time is a process of this accumulation called knowledge. We needed time to go to the moon, time to think it out, time to co-operate collectively, and so on. So time-thought are not separate, they are one single movement. All right? Are we going together? Or it is all just words? 就如我们说过的：时间是「进化」的一部分， 是那个发展了250万年大脑的一部分。 「时间」也是日出、日落。 「时间」同样也是希望——我希望，某人希望。 「时间」同样也是记忆。 「时间」也是我们所聚集起来的所有知识与经验， 也就是科学的、个人的、集体的、种族的等等的知识。 「时间」也是传统。 而思想是建立在知识之上的，知识是经验的产物 ——不管那种经验是个人的、集体的、 种族的还是传统的——它仍然是「知识」。 而知识永远都是局限的——不管是在无限的未来， 还是在无限的过去，因为知识本质上来说 是经由经验拼凑起来的，在已知事物的基础上不断添加更多的东西。 这就是科学家们正在做的事情。 这就是我们正在做的事情，不断添加更多的东西。 因此知识总是局限的，永远是局限的。 无论是在过去、现在，还是未来。 而「时间」就是这种被称为“知识”的积累的过程。 我们需要时间才能登上月球，我们需要时间来想出办法， 我们需要时间来通力合作，等等。 所以时间/思想并不是分离的，它们是合为一体的运动。 对吧？ 我们正在一起前行吗？ 还是说这一切仅仅是语言文字？
27:06 So time is not only the past, the present and the future, the present modifying the past and therefore the future, the future of tomorrow is what I am today. So now, that is, the moment that you are sitting there as you are listening, as you are paying perhaps attention, the now contains all time. So if one really deeply, profoundly understands that, then change is totally meaningless. You are what you are now. And to remain with that, not say, ‘Well I hope to change it’, ‘I will become this. I am violent but I will be later non-violent’. You understand what we are talking about? We are together in this? Don’t be puzzled, it is very, very simple. It is really terribly simple if you come to look at it. I am violent today. I have been violent for the last 2.5 million years, so have you. We have been violent – right? We have tried to cover it over with words, with explanations, with logical conclusions, but we are still violent, killing each other, hurting each other, both physically and psychologically, competitive, barbarous – right? We are violent people. All that is going on in the world, throwing bombs, the terrorists, all the horrible things that are happening to the animals, to other human beings. Don’t you know all this? Right? We know all this. We are violent people. If there is no transformation now, now, at this moment, at this second, tomorrow you will still be violent – right? That is logical, reasonable. Do pay a little attention to this if you don’t mind. If I am angry, hating, antagonistic now, I will be the same tomorrow – right? It is obvious. So the now contains the past, the present and the future. So any change implies a movement in time – right? I am this but I will be that. That means time, which means I have really not captured the significance of time. But if I remain with ‘what is’ completely, without any single movement away from that, that which I observe, hold, stay with, is me. Violence is not separate from me, I am violent. Anger is not separate from me, I am anger. Greed, envy – I am that. But we have separated it, therefore there is conflict. This is all very simple, I don’t have to... It is clear between us somewhat? Not, I am making it clear to you. You are making the thing clear for yourself so it is not you understand what is being said or the speaker explains what he means, or you can say, ‘I don’t understand you’. You are not understanding the speaker, you are understanding yourself, you are looking at yourself, if you are not too depressed, if you are not too lazy, if you are not too concerned with superficial things. 所以「时间」不只是过去、现在和未来， 「现在」修改了「过去」，从而造就了「未来」， 作为「未来」的明天，它就是我今天的模样。 所以现在，此刻当你坐在那里，当你在聆听， 当你或许正集中注意力的时候，「此刻」就蕴含了全部的时间。 所以如果我们真正深刻地、完全地理解了它， 那么“改变”就是毫无意义的。 你就是此时此刻的你。 你要与你的实际模样共存，而不要说，“啊，我希望能有所改变……” “我将会变成别的模样。我是暴力的，但以后我将会变得非暴力。” 你明白我们正在谈论的东西吗？ 我们都理解这点了吗？ 不要感到困惑，这是非常非常简单的。 如果你开始去看一下它，它真的很简单。 今天我很暴力。 在过去的250万年里，我一直都是暴力的，你也一样。 我们一直都是暴力的——对吧？ 我们试图用各种文字、解释、 逻辑上的结论来掩盖暴力，但我们仍然是暴力的， 我们自相残杀，互相伤害——既包括身体上的、 也包括心理上的，我们彼此竞争、野蛮残暴——对吧？ 我们是暴力的人。 所有这些暴力正在世界上发生着， 投掷炸弹，恐怖分子，所有那些可怕的事情 ——那些发生在动物和其他人身上的可怕之事。 你们难道不知道所有这些事情吗？ 是吧？ 这些事情我们都知道。 我们就是暴力之人。 而如果你现在不转变自己，现在，就在此刻， 就在这一秒，那么明天你依然会是暴力的——对吧？ 这是合乎逻辑、合乎理性的。 如果你们不介意的话，请务必稍微集中一下注意力。 如果我此刻心怀愤怒、憎恨和敌意，那么明天的我仍然会是如此——对吧？ 这是显而易见的事。 所以「当下」就包含了过去、现在和未来。 因此任何改变都意味着“时间中的运动”——是吧？ 我是这样的，但我将会变成那样的。 这就意味着「时间」， 这意味着我并没有真正地领会「时间」的意义。 但如果我能完全地和“真实现状”待在一起，而没有任何 逃离它的运动，那么我所观察到的、保持的、与之共处的那个东西——它就是“我”。 暴力和“我”并不是分离的，我就是暴力。 愤怒与“我”并不是分离的，我就是愤怒。 贪婪、嫉妒，我就是它们。 但我们把自己和它分开了，由此便有了冲突。 这一切都是非常简单的，我并不需要 我们双方对此是否都清楚了一点？ 不是我把它和你讲清楚。 而是你自己去把事情弄清楚，这样的话就不是你理解了 演讲者所说的东西，或者演讲者解释清楚了他的意思， 或者你会说，“我不理解你的意思”。 你并不是在理解演讲者，你是在了解你自己， 你是在观察你自己——如果你还没有太过沮丧， 如果你还不是太懒惰，如果你还没有太过于关注肤浅表面之事的话。
32:54 So time, thought, self-interest, and in all this cycle there is no freedom, obviously. Where there is self-interest there can never be freedom. It is so obvious. So simple if you look at it. And the more simple it is, the more subtle, the more extraordinary depth it has. 所以存在着时间/思想和利己主义，而在所有这些东西的循环之中， 是没有「自由」可言的，这是很显然的。 当有了利己主义，就绝不可能会有自由。 这是显而易见的。 如果你去看一下它的话，你会发现它是如此简单。 而它越是简单，它就会变得越精巧微妙， 越具有非凡的深度。
33:37 We also ought to talk over together the whole acquisitive, pleasurable, gratifying process – all right? You are willing to go into all this? Don’t say, ‘Yep!’ It is like digging in the earth to find gold; you don’t find gold scratching the earth, superficially scratching, you have to dig, you have to go down very, very deeply. Not up in the air, in the sky but you are the entire humanity, as we said the other day. So you don’t have to look for another to help you, or to help you to dig or to go into yourself, you are that, you are the whole mankind because what you think millions of others think, think, not what they think about – thinking. Thinking is common to all mankind, whether they are scientists, whether they are Buddhists or Tibetans or God knows what else. They all think. They all have pleasure, sexually, or pleasure in attachment, in possession, pleasure in achieving position, money, glory, fame, and all that business. And all human beings, whatever race, colour, prejudice, religion, they all go through pleasure, pain, anxiety, uncertainty and sorrow – right? So it is not your particular sorrow only, it is not your own particular pleasure, it is the pleasure of mankind. Right? We have always sought pleasure, physically, psychologically, and if we do not find it there, we invent something extra-territorial, little green men! Sorry to laugh about it. Pleasure in acquisition, possession – I possess you, you possess me – think it over, look at it. And that pleasure is always clouded over with fear. So, pleasure, fear, self-interest, time, thought are all one movement, not separate movements – right? 我们也应该一起来讨论一下那整个贪婪占有、 令人感到快感和满足的过程——好吗？ 你们愿意来探讨这一切吗？ 不要说“好耶！”（笑声） 它就像是挖掘土地来发现黄金一样， 如果你只是轻轻挖一下，挖一挖表面的话，你是找不到黄金的， 你必须要深挖下去，你必须要进入很深很深的地方。 不是去找什么高高在上的、不接地气的东西，而是你就是全人类 ——我们前几天已经说过这个了。 所以你不要指望别人来帮助你，帮你来深挖， 或者帮你来探究你自己，你就是它，你就是整个人类， 因为你思考的东西，其他数百万人也在思考它， 思考，不是人们所思考的东西，而是「思考」本身。 「思考」对于全人类来说是共同的东西——不管他们是科学家也好、 佛教徒也好、西藏人也好，或者天知道什么人。 所有的人都会思考。 所有的人都会有快感——性方面的快感，或者执著与占有的快感， 获得地位、金钱、荣誉、名气等等这些东西的快感。 而所有的人——无论是什么种族、肤色、偏见、宗教， 他们全都会经历快感、痛苦、焦虑、不确定和悲伤——对吧？ 所以它不只是你特定的痛苦，也不是你自己的某种快感， 它是全人类的快感——对吧？ 我们总是在寻找快感——肉体上的快感、心理上的快感—— 而如果我们无法在那里找到快感，我们就会发明出某种天外来客的东西，外星小绿人！ 不好意思，这有点好笑。 获得某个东西、拥有某个东西的快感， 我拥有你，你也拥有我——仔细想想这件事，去观察一下它吧。 而这种（拥有的）快感总是被恐惧的阴云所遮蔽。 所以，快感、恐惧、利己主义、时间、 思想，它们全都是同一个运动，而不是彼此分离的运动——对吗？
37:55 And also we ought to enquire into what is suffering, why man from time beyond time has suffered. They’ve done everything on God’s earth to escape from suffering, not only physical suffering, but much more important, psychological suffering. And in spite of all religions, one particular religion worshipping death, suffering, as they do in Christianity, and other religions having other escapes, they have never, man has never, or woman, has never solved this problem. They bear with it, they tolerate it, they get crippled by it, they become psychopathic, shed tears. And suffering is common to the whole lot of us in different forms. Either it becomes exaggerated, or you just shed tears and keep it to yourself and carry on. And there is always this killing of each other. Right? Thousands, millions upon millions have shed tears, the brutality of it all, the insanity of war, building armaments while millions and millions starve – I don’t have to go into all that. It is all very clear. One nationality fighting another nationality, another group of human beings like yourself, you may call yourself British, Indian, or other label, but you are human beings first. 而我们同样也应该来探询一下什么是「苦」， 为什么人类自古以来就一直在受苦。 人们已经在这片上帝的土地上做了一切事情来逃避苦难，不仅仅是身体上的痛苦， 更重要的是心理上的痛苦。 在所有的各种宗教中，某个宗教崇拜死亡、 崇拜痛苦——就像人们在基督教中所做的那样， 而其他宗教也有着另外的逃避痛苦的方式，它们从来没有 人们从来没有——也包括女人们——从来没有解决痛苦的问题。 人们容忍痛苦，人们忍受着痛苦， 他们被痛苦给毁了，他们变成了精神变态，他们流泪哭泣。 而痛苦对于我们所有人来说是共同的——只是形式有所不同。 要么这种痛苦会被放大， 要么你只是流下眼泪，然后继续带着痛苦而生活。 人类总是在互相残杀——对吧？ 成千上万的人，数百万的人流下了眼泪，所有这一切的野蛮残忍， 疯狂愚蠢的战争，建立武器库， 与此同时数百万人却在忍饥挨饿——这些事情用不着我展开讲了。 它们都是显而易见的。 一个民族和另一个民族进行战争， 另一个团体的人，就像你们，你们也许会自称为是 英国人、印度人，或者给自己贴上其他标签，但你们首先是「人类」。 所以，我们在问：战争是否可以结束，（应该是）苦难是否可以结束——不是战争。
40:59 So we are asking, is there an end to war, end to suffering – not to war. As long as we are separate, as a family, as a community or a clique, as a nation, religious, and so on, this division is going to create always, perpetually conflict. You and me. We and they. This is our game we have been playing. First tribal, limited, now it is global. So we are asking ourselves: is there an end to sorrow? Put this question seriously to yourself. Because where there is sorrow there cannot be love. There can be sympathy, pity, tolerance, empathy, but generosity, pity, sympathy is not love. Love may contain all that or have all that but the parts don’t make the whole. You can collect all the sympathy, empathy, kindness, generosity, friendship, but that is not love. 只要我们还是彼此分离的，作为一个家庭、一个群体、 一个派系、一个国家、一个宗教等等， 那么这些划分就总是会制造出永无止境的冲突。 “你”和“我”，“我们”和“他们”。 这就是我们一直以来在玩的游戏。 先是规模有限的部落，而现在它扩展到了全球范围。 所以我们正在问自己：苦难可以结束吗？ 请认真严肃地问问你自己这个问题。 因为当有了痛苦，就不可能会有「爱」。 我们可以有同情、怜悯、容忍、 共鸣，但宽容、怜悯和同情并不是「爱」。 「爱」也许包含了这一切， 或者「爱」里面有所有这些东西，然而「部分」并不能构成整体。 你可以聚集起所有的同情、共鸣、 仁慈、宽容、友谊，然而这些都不是「爱」。 所以，苦难可以结束吗？
42:56 So, is there an end to sorrow? And this requires immense, a great deal of energy to go into it, not just say, ‘Well, I will think about it’. Thinking may be the factor of sorrow. My son is dead and I have got his photograph on the mantelpiece or on the piano in a silver frame, I remember. Remembrance is a process of thought. Of course. Thinking how we enjoyed the sunset together, how we walked in the forest, laughing, skipping, and he is gone. But the remembrance of him goes on. And that remembrance may be the factor of sorrow. I don’t want to admit my son is dead, gone. To admit such a fact is to admit utter loneliness. And we don’t want to face this fact of being utterly by oneself. And so I look for another. I rely for my happiness, satisfaction, sexually or otherwise, – look to another. And I play the same game over and over again. But I have not ended sorrow, not I, the speaker, but we have not ended sorrow. Sorrow is not only self-pity, self-interest, but also the loss of that which I have had, the loss, the failure to fulfil, to achieve, to gain something which I have worked for, not only physically, but psychologically, inwardly. All this is implied in sorrow and much more. And we are asking of ourselves, nobody is putting this question or demand this challenge to you, but you are asking this of yourself whether sorrow can end. Not only the sorrow of oneself, where it is there in oneself, but also the sorrow of mankind, of which you are. That means no killing of another, no psychologically wounding another. Yes, sirs! As we said, where there is sorrow there cannot be love, which is a fact. 这个问题需要你投入巨大的、大量的能量去探究它， 而不只是说，“好吧，我会去思考一下它的。” 「思考」或许就是导致苦难的因素。 我的儿子去世了，于是我将他的照片装在银色相框里，将其摆在壁炉台上， 或者钢琴上，我会回忆他。 而回忆就是一个思想的过程。 这是毫无疑问的。 回想我们是如何一起享受日落的， 我们是如何在森林里漫步，欢笑、跳跃，现在他却离去了。 但关于他的回忆仍在继续着。 而这种回忆或许就是导致「苦难」的因素之一。 我不想承认我的儿子已经死了，已经离去了。 因为承认这个事实就等于承认了彻底的孤独。 而我们并不想要面对彻底孤独一人的事实。 于是我会去寻找别人。 我依靠别人来获得我的快乐、满足 ——无论是性方面的还是其他方面的——我会指望他人。 我会一遍又一遍地玩这个同样的游戏。 然而我并没有结束「苦难」——不是我，不是演讲者—— 而是我们并没有结束「苦难」。 苦难并不只是自怜、自身利益， 同样也是失去了我曾有过的东西，那种丧失， 没有能够完成、实现、获得某个 我为之努力工作的东西——不只是外在物质上的东西，也包括心理上的、内心的东西。 所有这些，以及更多的内容都包含在「苦难」之中。 而我们正在询问我们自己，没有人向你们提出这个问题， 或者向你们提出这个挑战，而是你们自己在问这个问题： 即苦难能否结束？ 不只是你自己的苦难，你身上的苦难， 也包括全人类的苦难——你就是全人类。 这意味着不去杀害别人，也不在心理上去伤害别人。 就是这样，先生们！ 就如我们所说的，当有了苦难，就不可能会有爱——这是一个事实。
47:18 So we ought to enquire or look – not enquire, but look – what is love. That word has been so used, so spat upon, dirtied and made ugly. ‘I love my country’, ‘I love my god’, ‘I am devoted, I pray for love’. Right? ‘I am not loved but I want to be loved’ – the love poems. Is love sensation? Please ask yourself all these questions. Is love a continuation and remembrance of pleasure? Is love desire? You know what desire is? May I go into it briefly? What is desire, by which you are driven and riven, torn apart – what is that thing called desire? Not to suppress it, not to transmute it or do something with it, but what is the movement of desire, how does it come about? Are you putting these questions to yourself or do you want the speaker to explain? For God’s sake! Let’s go into it. 所以我们应该去询问或者观察——不是询问，而是去观察——什么是「爱」。 「爱」这个字已经被滥用了，它遭到了如此的唾弃，被玷污从而变得丑陋了。 “我爱我的国家”，“我爱我的上帝”，“我很虔诚，我为爱而祈祷。” 对吧？“我没有被人爱，但我想要被爱”——那些爱情诗。 「爱」是感官感觉吗？ 请问问你自己所有这些问题。 「爱」是对于快感的延续和回忆吗？ 「爱」是欲望吗？ 你们知道什么是「欲望」吗？ 我可以简要地来探讨下它吗？ 什么是「欲望」——你们被欲望所驱使、分裂，被撕成碎片， 那么这个叫做「欲望」的东西是什么呢？ 不要去压抑欲望，不要去转化它，或者对它做某些事情， 而是欲望的运动是怎样的，欲望是如何出现的？ 你们正在问自己这些问题吗？ 还是说你们想要演讲者来解释它？ 看在上帝的份上！ 让我们来探讨一下它吧。
49:43 We live by sensation, whether physical sensation or psychological sensation. Sensation is part of response, part of comparison, and so on, sensation, I sense, feel, I sense the atmosphere, good or bad. Sensation – right? That sensation comes about through seeing, touching, hearing, and then what happens after sensation? Oh, come on, sirs! Thought comes in and uses that sensation as an image – right? I see a nice house, or a garden, or a nice picture, or furniture, or a nice woman and there is sensation, the seeing, the observing. The observing, contact, then sensation comes. Unless there is sensation we are paralysed, as most of us are! We are paralysed if we don’t have sensation, in our legs, in our hands, all the rest of it. So sensation, then what happens? Thought takes sensation and makes that into an image – right? I see you beautifully dressed, clean, healthy, bright, good, a good brain, and all the rest of that. I see that, the way you talk, the way you do this and that, and so on. Then thought says, I wish I were like him, or her. At that moment desire is born – right? Sensation, then desire – then thought giving shape to that sensation. And if there is an interval between sensation and thought, then you can go into it much more, but not now. You understand? Are we somewhat together in this? You see, sirs, our difficulty is, we are so complex in our thinking, so want to find out, always looking, looking, looking, finding an answer to problems, solutions and ‘how am I to do this’. We are never simple. Not physically, for God’s sake, don’t reduce it to having some food, or little clothes, or food, or eating one meal, and all that. What is that kind of food that’s called – I have forgotten the name of it, you know, from Japan, what is the name of it? 我们依靠感官感觉而生活——不管是身体上的感官感觉，还是心理上的感官感觉。 感官感觉是反应的一部分，比较的一部分，等等。 感官感觉，我感觉到，我觉得，我感觉到了那种气氛，或好或坏。 感官感觉——对吧？ 而那种感官感觉是通过看见、触碰、 聆听而来的，然后，在有了那种感官感觉之后会发生什么呢？ 噢，加油啊，先生们！ 这时思想会介入进来，然后利用这种感官感觉创造出某种意象——对吧？ 我看到了一幢漂亮的房子、一个花园，或者一张美丽的图画，一件精美的家具， 或者一个美女，然后我便有了感觉，我看到了它，观察到了它。 先是观察，然后接触，然后感官感觉出现了。 如果我们没有感官感觉，那我们就是瘫痪了——我们大多数人都会如此！ 如果我们的腿、 我们的手，等等这些都没有了感觉，那我们就已经瘫痪了。 所以先是有感官感觉，然后会发生什么呢？ 思想会处理感觉感觉，然后将其变成一个意象——对吧？ 我看到你穿着漂亮的衣服、干净、健康、 聪明、优秀、头脑聪颖，等等这些。 我看到了它，你的谈吐方式，你的行为举动，等等。 然后思想会说：我希望我能够像他（她）一样。 就在那一刻，欲望便升起了——是吧？ 先是有了感官感觉，然后是欲望——然后思想会赋予那种感官感觉以具体的形式意象。 而如果感官感觉和思想之间可以有一个「间隔」， 那么你就可以非常深入地探究它了——但不是现在去探究。 你们理解了吗？ 我们是不是多少有些理解它了？ 你瞧，先生们，我们的困难就在于：我们想得太复杂了， 我们是如此地想要去发现，我们总是在不断地看、看、看， 找寻问题的答案和解决方案，“我该怎么做这件事呢”。 我们从来没有简单过。 不是身体物质上的简单——看在上帝的份上——不要把它降级为吃某些食物， 穿很少的衣服，吃很少的东西，或者每天只吃一餐，等等这些。 那种食物叫什么来着？ 我忘记它的名字了，你们知道的 那种来自日本的饮食，它叫什么来着？
53:47 Audience: Macrobiotic.

K: Macrobiotic, that’s it. Go crazy on that. As one goes crazy about Yoga, and all the rest of it, Tai Chi – you know, we play. We are not playing. This isn’t a fantasy. This is something you are hooked in. This is our life, our everyday lonely, ugly, little life. 		听众：延寿饮食法（Macrobiotic）。克氏：延寿饮食法，没错就是它。 人们都为此而疯狂了。（笑声） 就像有人为瑜伽而疯狂，等等这些东西， 太极拳，你们知道的，我们会玩这些游戏。 但现在我们并没有在玩游戏。 这并不是一个幻想。 它是某种你被其蒙骗的东西。 这是我们的生活，我们每天孤独的、丑陋的、卑微的生活。
54:37 So what is love? Can love exist where there is hate and fear, where there is competition and comparison, where there is conformity, agreeing or disagreeing? Go into all this, sir. Or is love nothing to do with all this? Is love something in the brain, inside the skull? Or is it something entirely beyond thought and time? And where there is self-interest there cannot be love. Obviously, sir, you can see all this for yourself. Then what relationship has love to sorrow? And can love be compassion, not only I love you, you love me? Love is not yours or mine, it is love. Right? I may be married, have children, sex, and all the rest of it. In all that there may be tenderness, generosity, politeness, kindliness, yielding, tolerating – all that is not love. So compassion and love are not separate, they are one. And can one live like that? You understand? Can one have this in one’s life, not in abstract moments or in moments when you are sitting by yourself on the sofa or walking in the woods: a flash, a scent, a perfume that seems for a second to transform your whole existence. Can we live our daily life with that perfume? For that compassion has its own intelligence, not the compassion of a man going out to India or to Africa and do some missionary work, or helping the poor, desperate poor, that is not love. Where there is love there is absolute freedom, not to do what you like, not to assert yourself or convert others. All that kind of silly stuff! 所以什么是「爱」？ 当有了仇恨和恐惧，当有了竞争与比较， 当有了遵从、同意或不同意时，「爱」还能存在吗？ 请深入探究这一切，先生。 还是说「爱」是和所有这一切无关的？ 「爱」是某种存在于大脑中、存在于头骨中的东西吗？ 还是说它是某种完全超越思想和时间的东西？ 当有了利己主义，就不可能会有「爱」。 这是显而易见的，先生，你可以自己看到这一切。 那么「爱」和「苦难」有什么关系呢？ 「爱」可以转化为「慈悲」吗？不只是我爱你，你爱我。 「爱」并不是你的，也不是我的，它只是「爱」。 对吧？ 我或许结婚了，生了孩子，我会做爱，等等这些事情。 在所有这些事情中或许会有柔情、慷慨、 礼貌、体贴、顺从、容忍，但所有这些都不是「爱」。 所以「慈悲」和「爱」并不是分离的，它们是融为一体的。 而我们可以这样子生活吗？ 你们理解了吗？ 我们能否在生活中拥有它——不是在某些抽象的时刻， 或者当你独自一人坐在沙发上， 或者在树林里散步时：似乎有一道光、一缕芬芳、一阵芳香， 在那一刻转变了你的整个存在。 我们可以带着这种芬芳来过日常生活吗？ 因为那种「慈悲」就会有其自身的智慧， 「慈悲」并不是某人前往印度或非洲，然后做一些 传教士的工作，或者帮助穷人——那些赤贫之人，这并不是「爱」。 当有了「爱」，就会有绝对的「自由」， 不是能为所欲为的自由，不是那种能表达自我或改变他人的自由。 所有这类愚蠢之事！ 所以，这种「智慧」并不是思想智力——对吧？
58:40 So that intelligence is not the intelligence of thought – right? One needs a great deal of intelligence, a tremendous lot of intelligence to go to the moon or to put a submarine together, to build a computer – right? That is partial intelligence. The scientist, the painter, poet, the ordinary person who bakes a bread – that is part intelligence, it is not complete intelligence. And that holistic intelligence, the whole quality of that intelligence can only come about with the ending of sorrow and love, and that acts, not the action which is partial, brought about by thought and time. 我们需要大量的智慧、 无数的智慧才能登上月球， 或者将潜水艇组装起来，制造出一台电脑——是吧？ 这是局部的智慧。 科学家、画家、诗人、以及烘焙面包的普通人， 都有这种局部的智慧，但它并不是全然的智慧。 而想要让这种完整的智慧，这种智慧的全部品质出现， 只有当苦难终结，有了「爱」以后才行，这才是有用的行动， 而不是那种由思想和时间所带来的局部的行动。
1:00:19 May we get up? Or shall we sit still? We can’t hold hands but we can sit quietly for a few minutes. Shall we? Good. Not meditate. Sit quietly. Will you kindly get up? Then the speaker will get up. 我们可以站起来了吗？ 还是说我们应该静静地坐会儿？ 我们无法相互握手，但我们可以一起安静地坐上几分钟。 可以吗？ 听众：可以。克氏：很好。 这可不是冥想。（笑声） 安静地坐着就行。 （长时间的静默） 你们可以站起来了吗？ 这样演讲者也会站起来了。