Krishnamurti Subtitles home


CL68CHS - 权威是破坏性的
与休斯顿·史密斯的对话
克莱蒙特学院，美国
1968年11月15日



1:00 S: I am Huston Smith, professor of philosophy at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and I invite you to a conversation arranged by the Blaisdell Institute of Claremont, California, with Krishnamurti, who was raised by Annie Besant and the Theosophists to be a World Teacher, and who, though he discarded the mantle of Theosophy, did indeed become a sage of our century, one whose voice is heard as much by the youth of today as throughout the world for the last sixty years. 史：大家好，我是麻省理工大学 的哲学教授，休斯顿 史密斯。 我邀请你观看这场 由克莱蒙特布莱斯德尔研究所组织的， 和克里希那穆提的对话。克里希那穆提被安妮贝赞特 及通神学会称为世界导师， 他虽然丢弃放弃了通神学会的衣钵， 但是确实成了我们这个时代的圣人， 在过去六十年，他的教诲被 全世界大量青年人所倾听。
1:38 Krishnamurti, maybe this morning I will have only one question which in one way or another I will be coming back to in various ways. In your writings, in your speaking, time and again you come back to this wonderful little word, ‘lucid and lucidity’, but is it possible, living as we are in this confused and confusing world, torn by conflicting voices without and conflicting passions within, with hearts that seem star-crossed and tensions that never go, is it possible in such a life, in such a world, to live with total lucidity? And if so, how? 史：克里希那穆提，也许今天早晨我可以问一下， 一个一直萦绕在我脑海里的问题。 在你的文章，讲话中，一次次的， 你提到这个美妙的词——清晰的和清晰感（ ‘lucid and lucidity’）， 但是也许，生活在如此混乱并令人困惑的世界上， 处于外在各种相互冲突的声音， 内在相互冲突的激情中， 我们的心灵如此不幸，始终处于一种紧张的状态， 在这样的生活中，在这样的世界上， 是否有可能完全清晰的生活？要如何做呢？
2:33 K: I wonder, sir, what you mean by that word ‘lucid’. I wonder whether you mean clarity. 克：我想知道，先生，你所谓的”清晰“是什么意思？ 那是否意味着清晰感（clarity）。
2:49 S: That's what first comes to mind, yes. 史：这就是首先跳到我脑子里的东西，是的。
2:54 K: Is this clarity a matter of intellectual perception, or is it a perception with your whole being, not merely a fragment of your being, but with the totality of one’s whole being? 克：这种清晰是智力上的洞察吗， 还是用你的整个存在去洞察， 不只是存在的一个碎片， 而是存在的整体？
3:18 S: It certainly has the ring of the latter, it’s the latter. 史：当然是后者。
3:21 K: So it is not fragmentary, therefore it is not intellectual or emotional, or sentimental. And so is it possible in this confused world, with so many contradictions, and such misery and starvation, not only outwardly, but also inwardly, such insufficiency, psychologically – outwardly there are so many rich societies – is it at all possible for a human being living in this world to find within himself a clarity that is constant, that is true in the sense not contradictory, is it possible for a human being to find it? 克：所以，不是片段性的， 不是智力的、情感的或者感官的。 因此，是否有可能在这样一个困惑的，充满各种冲突的世界， 充满混乱和饥饿，不只有外在的还有内在的， 心理上的不满足， ——当然从外在看存在一些富裕的社会—— 一个人能否生活在这个世界上， 为他自己发现一种内在的持续的清晰感， 是真的不存在矛盾感， 这可能吗？
4:28 S: That’s my question.

K: Your question. I don’t see why not. I don’t see why it shouldn’t be found by anybody who is really quite serious. Most of us are not serious at all. We want to be entertained, we want to be told what to do, we want someone else to tell us how to live, what this clarity is, what is truth, what is God, what is righteous behaviour and so on. Now if one could discard completely all the authority of psychological specialists, as well as the specialists in religion, if one could really deeply negate all authority of that kind, then one would be relying totally on oneself. 		史：这就是我的问题。

克：是你的问题。 我看不出有何不可以。 我看不出为何真正严肃的人 不能自己发现这一点。 我们大多数人并不严肃。 我们想要娱乐，被告知要如何做， 我们想其他人告诉我们如何去生活，所谓”清晰“是什么， 真相，上帝，正确的行为，等等是什么。 现在如果一个人彻底抛弃， 所有的心理领域， 宗教领域的权威和专家， 如果一个人真的能深入的否定所有这一类权威， 然后他就能依靠他自己。
5:46 S: Well, I feel I may be right off, I am contradicting what you are suggesting because my impulse after you have said that it seems to you that it is possible to achieve this lucidity, my impulse is to ask you immediately, how? 史：我觉得我要说两句， 我反对你所说的， 因为当你 说可以实现所谓的清晰时， 我的本能冲动就是问你，要如何做？
6:02 K: Wait, sir. 克：等等先生。
6:04 S: But you say, am I looking to authority if I do that? 史：但你却说我这样做是在追寻权威？
6:07 K: No, no. What is necessary is the freedom from authority, not the ‘how’. The ‘how’ implies a method, a system, a way trodden by others, and someone to tell you, 'Do this and you will find it.' 克：不不先生，重要的是从权威中解脱，而不是”如何“。 ”如何“意味着一个方法，一个体系， 一条别人走过的路， 某个人告诉你，“这么做，然后你就会发现。”
6:32 S: Now, are you saying with this that it is an inappropriate question to ask you how this lucidity is to be achieved? 史：所以先生你是在说， 问你如何实现清晰， 是不恰当的问题？
6:40 K: Not at all, but the ‘how’ implies that: a method, a system. And the moment you have a system and a method, you become mechanical, you just do what you are told. And that’s not clarity. It is like a child being told by its mother what it should do from morning until night. And therefore it becomes dependent on the mother, or the father, whatever it be, and there is no clarity. So to have clarity, the first essential thing is freedom – freedom from authority. 克：完全不是，但是”如何“意味着一个方法，一个体系。 一旦你有了某种方法或体系，你就变的机械化了， 你只是做你被告知的东西。 这不是清晰。 就像一个孩子， 被妈妈告诉从早到晚要做什么。 因此他就会依赖妈妈， 或者爸爸，或者不管什么，这不是清晰。 所以，拥有清晰，第一件最根本的事就是自由 ——从权威中解脱的自由。
7:29 S: And I feel in a kind of bind, because this freedom is attractive too and I want to go towards that, but I also want to pick your mind and ask you how to proceed? Am I moving away from my freedom if I ask you how to proceed? 史：我感到有一种束缚， 你所说的自由很有吸引力，我也想走近它， 但是我总会想知道你的想法，问你，要如何前进？ 如果我这样问，我是在偏离自由吗？
7:49 K: No, sir, but I am pointing out the difficulty of that word, the implication of that word, the ‘how’. Not whether one is wandering away from freedom, or any other thing of that kind, but the word ‘how’ implies intrinsically a mind that says, 'Please tell me what to do.' 克：不，先生。我只是在指出这个词语中的困难， ”如何“这个词中的暗示。 不是一个人是否偏离了自由， 或者其他类似的事， 而是”如何“这个词本质上意味着意识在说， ”请告诉我需要做什么？“
8:24 S: And I ask again, is that a mistaken question, is that a wrong question? 史：所以我想再问一下，“如何”的问题是一个错误的问题吗？
8:30 K: I should think that’s a wrong question, the ‘how’. But rather if you say, what are the things, the obstructions that prevent clarity, then we can go into it. But if you say, right from the beginning, what is the method – there have been a dozen methods and they have all failed, they have not produced clarity, or enlightenment, or a state of peace in man. On the contrary, these methods have divided man: you have your method, and somebody else has his method, and these methods are everlastingly quarrelling with each other. 克：我认为那是一个错误的问题，“如何”的问题。 但是，如果你说阻碍 清晰的障碍是什么，那我们就能探究它。 但是如果你从最开始，就问方法是什么 ——有一大堆方法，但是他们都失败了， 他们没有培养出清晰或者觉悟， 或者人与人之间的和平。 正相反，这些方法分裂了人类： 你有你的方法，别人有别人的方法， 这些方法在永无止境的彼此争吵。
9:17 S: Are you saying that once you abstract certain principles and formulate them into a method, this becomes too crude to meet the intricacies... 史：你是在说一旦你抽象出某一些原则， 然后基于此形成一些方法， 这就太粗糙了，不能接近那精微复杂之物
9:28 K: That’s right, the intricacies, and the complexities and the living quality of clarity. 克：是的，精微复杂， 清晰感中的复杂性以及那种活生生的品质。
9:34 S: So that the ‘how’ must always be immediate, from where one stands, the particular or the general. 史：所以“如何”必须要靠近 我们站立的地方，不管是特殊的还是具体的。
9:41 K: I would never put the ‘how’ at all. The ‘how’ should never enter into the mind. 克：我永远不会提起”如何”。 “如何”完全不应该进入脑子。
9:46 S: Well, this is a hard teaching. It may be true and I am reaching for it, and yet I don’t know that it’s possible – I don’t feel that it’s possible completely to relinquish the question how and everything. 史：这是困难的教导， 也许真的可以做到， 但是我不知道是否可能， 我不觉得真的可能， 完全、彻底的放弃“如何”以及相关的概念。
9:59 K: Sir, I think we shall be able to understand each other if we could go a little slowly, not into the ‘how’, but what are the things that prevent clarity. 克：先生，我认为为了理解彼此， 我们要探讨的慢一点，先不探讨“如何”的问题， 先探讨下是什么阻碍了清晰感。
10:15 S: All right, fine. 史：好的。
10:16 K: Through negation, through negation come to clarity, not through the positive method of following a system. 克：通过否定，通过否定来获得清晰感， 不是通过积极地去追寻某一个方法体系。
10:26 S: Fine. All right. This is the 'Via Negativa', that is good. 史：好，这就是所谓“否定法”，这很好。
10:33 K: I think that is the only way. The positive way of the ‘how’ has lead man to divide himself, his loyalties, his pursuits, you have the ‘how’ of yours, and the ‘how’ of somebody else, and the method of this – and they are all lost. 克：我认为这是唯一的方法。 积极的“如何”的方法，只会让人类分裂， 他有他的忠诚，追求，你有你的“如何”， 其他人有其他人的“如何”， 方法也是一样的，——最终人们都迷失了。
10:54 S: Fine. 史：是的。
10:55 K: So if we could put aside that question, ‘the how’ for the time being, – and probably you will never put it, afterwards. And I hope you won’t.

S: Well, we’ll see. 		克：如果我们可以先放下这个问题， ”如何“的问题， ——也许你永远也不会再提及它。 我希望你不会。

史：我们可以看看。
11:08 K: So what is important is to find out what are the obstructions, the hindrances, the blocks that prevent clear perception of human anxiety, fear, sorrow, and the ache of loneliness, the utter lack of love and all that. 克：所以，重要的是去发现 其中的障碍是什么，阻碍人类清晰的觉察， 痛苦，焦虑，恐惧，悲伤以及 孤独的痛苦以及彻底的缺乏爱，以及等等的障碍。
11:42 S: Let’s explore the virtues of the negative. What are these obstacles?

K: Now, first of all, I feel, there must be freedom. Freedom from authority. 		史：让我们探讨一下否定的美德。 这些障碍是什么？

克：首先，我认为 必须存在自由。 从权威中解脱的自由。
12:00 S: Could we stop right there on this matter of authority ? When you say we should renounce all authority, it seems to me that the goal of total freedom and self-reliance is a valid one, and yet along the way it seems to me that we rely, and should rely, on all kinds of authorities in certain spheres. When I go to a new territory and I stop to ask the filling station attendant which way to go, I accept his authority as he knows more about that than I do. Isn’t this...

K: Obviously, sir, the specialist knows a little more than the layman, the experts, whether in surgery or in technological knowledge, obviously they know much more than any other person who is not concerned with that particular technique. But we are considering not authority along any particular line, but the whole problem of authority. 		史：我们可以先讨论一下权威的问题吗？ 当你说我们要否定所有权威时， 对我来说，彻底的自由， 自力更生是有价值的， 但是同时我们也必须去依赖， 在某些领域的各种权威。 当我去到一个新地方， 我们就要去询问加油站的服务人员要走哪条路， 我接受他的权威，因为他知道的比我多。 这难道……

克：先生，显然 专家知道的比普通人多， 不管是外科手术或者其他技术领域的专家， 他们显然知道的比其他人多， 那些不关心某种特定知识的人。 但是我们考虑的不是某一类特定的权威， 而是整个权威的问题。
13:11 S: And in that area is the answer to understand the areas in which there is specialised authority, which we should accept, and where...

K: And where authority is detrimental, authority is destructive. So there are two problems involved in this question of authority: there is not only the authority of the expert – let’s call him for the moment – which is necessary, but also the authority of the man who says, 'Psychologically I know, you don’t.'

S: I see. 		史：在那些领域需要 某些特定的权威， 我们应该接受，但是在其他领域……

克：在其他领域权威就是有害的， 权威是破坏性的。 所以权威中存在两个问题： 不只是专家的权威 ——我们暂且这么称呼——这是必要的， 还有心理领域的权威，他说 “在心理领域，我知道，而你不知道。”

史：我明白了。
13:52 K: 'This is true, this is false', 'You must do this, and you must not do that.' 克：“这是真的，那是假的”。 “你必须做这个，不能做那个。“
13:57 S: So one should never turn over one’s life to... 史：所以我们不能把自己的生命
14:02 K: To anybody.

S:...to anyone else. 		克：交给他人。

史：……交给他人。
14:05 K: Because the churches throughout the world, the different religions, have said, 'Give your life to us, we will direct, we’ll shape it, we will tell you what to do. Do this, follow the saviour, follow the church and you will have peace.' But, on the contrary, churches have produced terrible wars. Religions of every kind have brought about fragmentation of the mind. So the question is not freedom from a particular authority, but the whole conceptual acceptance of authority. 克：世界各地的，不同宗教的教堂， 都说，”把你的生命交给我们， 我们会引导，塑造，告诉你要做什么。 做这个，追随这个救世主，这个教堂，然后你会获得和平。“ 但是，正相反，教堂只带来了灾难性的战争。 所有类型的宗教都只带来了意识的碎片化。 所以问题不是从某种权威中解脱的自由， 而是对整个权威概念的接受。
14:50 S: Yes. All right. I think I see that and one should never abdicate one’s own conscience. 史：是的，没错，我认为我理解了， 一个人绝不能放弃自己的良心。
14:57 K: No, I am not talking of conscience. Our conscience is such a petty little affair. 克：不不，我们没有探讨良心的问题。 我们的所谓良心只是一件渺小的事物。
15:03 S: I am thinking about the conscience of how I should live my life. 史：我认为良心是一个人应该如何过一生。
15:10 K: No, we started out to say, asking the question, why is it man, who has lived for two million years and more, why is man not capable of clear perception and action? That is the question involved.

S: Right. And your first point is that it is because he doesn’t accept the full responsibility... 		克：不，我想问这样一个问题， 为什么人类，经过两百万年甚至更久， 仍然不能清晰的觉察和行动？ 这才是关键问题。

史：是的。 你曾经指出， 这是由于他不接受自己全部的责任
15:34 K: I don’t say that. No, I haven’t come to that point yet. I am saying that, as we said, we must approach this problem negatively. Which means I must find out what are the blockages. 克：我没这么说过，我还没有涉及过这一点。 我说，正如我们刚刚说的，要消极地接近这个问题。 这意味着我们要找出阻碍我们的事物。
15:54 S: Obstacles.

K: Obstacles which prevent clear perception.

S: Right. 		史：障碍。

克：清晰的觉察的 障碍。

史：是的。
16:01 K: Now one of the major blocks, or hindrances, is this total acceptance of authority. 克：现在一个主要的障碍、阻碍， 就是对权威的全盘接受。
16:09 S: All right. So be ye lamps unto yourself. 史：好吧。所以我们要做自己的光。
16:12 K: That’s right. So you must be a light to yourself. 克：是的。你必须做自己的光。
16:15 S: Very good.

K: And to be a light to yourself you must deny every other light, however great that light be, whether it be the light of the Buddha, or X Y Z. 		史：是的。

克：做你自己的光， 你就要否定其他人的光，无论那光有多么伟大， 不管是佛陀还是其他X，Y，Z的光。
16:28 S: Perhaps, accept it here or there but nevertheless you retain the say-so as to where an insight might be valid. 史：也许，接受一点点， 毕竟你还是保留了所谓洞察的说法。
16:39 K: No, no sir. No, no. S : You would never accept... 克：不不，先生，不。

史：你不接受任何权威吗
16:42 K: My own authority? What authority have I? My authority is the authority of the society. I am conditioned to accept authority: when I reject the authority of the outer, I accept the authority of the inner. And my authority of the inner is the result of the conditioning in which I have been brought up. 克：我的权威？我有什么权威？ 我的权威就是社会的权威。 我被社会的权威所制约， 当我拒绝外在的权威， 就会接受内在的权威。 我的内在的权威，就是制约的产物， 我生长于其中的制约。
17:05 S: All right. I thought I had this in place. And I guess perhaps I still do. The only point that I am not quite sure about at this point is, it seems to me while assuming, accepting, affirming and maintaining one’s own freedom... 史：是的，我认为我明白了， 但我仍然好奇， 我不是很确定一点， 就是在假定，接受， 肯定，或者维持自身的自由
17:25 K: Ah, you can’t. Sir, how can a prisoner, except ideologically, or theoretically, accept he is free? He is in prison, and that is the fact from which we must move. Not accept a vague fantastic ideological freedom which doesn’t exist. What exists is that man has bowed to this total authority. 克：不，你做不到。 先生，一个囚犯，除非在概念或者理论上， 如何接受他是自由的？ 他是囚犯，这就是事实，我们要从事实出发。 而不是接受某一个虚假的，含糊的，理想化的， 并不存在的自由。 存在的只有人类向整个权威的屈服。
17:58 S: All right. And this is the first thing we must see and remove. 史：是的，这是我们首先要看到并消除的事。
18:05 K: Absolutely. Completely that must go, for a man that is serious, and wants to find out the truth, or see things very clearly. That is one of the major points. And the demand of freedom, not only from authority, but from fear, which makes him accept authority. 克：当然。对于严肃的人，这是必须的， 对于真的想发现真理，并且清晰的看到事物的人。 这才是是关键问题之一。 对自由的需求，不只出于权威， 也出于恐惧，恐惧让人接受权威。
18:37 S: Right. That seems true also. And so beneath the craving for authority is... 史：是的。这似乎是真的。 在对权威的追求之下
18:44 K:...is fear.

S:...is fear which we look to authority to be free from. 		克：是恐惧。

史：是恐惧， 我希望通过权威来摆脱恐惧。
18:48 K: That’s right. So the fear makes man violent, not only territorial violence, but sexual violence and different forms of violence. 克：是的。所以恐惧让人暴力， 不只是领土问题上的暴力， 还有性的暴力，以及其他各种形式的暴力。
19:01 S: All right. 史：是的。
19:04 K: So the freedom from authority implies the freedom from fear. And the freedom from fear implies the cessation of every form of violence. 克：所以从权威中解脱，意味着从恐惧中解脱。 从恐惧中解脱，意味着所有形式暴力的消散。
19:19 S: If we stop violence then our fear recedes? 史：如果我们停止暴力，那我们的恐惧会退却吗？
19:25 K: Ah, no sir. It’s not a question of recession of fear. Let’s put it round the other way, sir. Man is violent, linguistically, psychologically, in daily life he is violent, which ultimately leads to war. 克：不，先生，这不是一个恐惧退却的问题。 让我们换个说法，先生。 人类是暴力的，不管是语言上还是心理上， 在日常生活中他是暴力的，而这最终会导致战争。
19:49 S: There’s a lot of it around. 史：有大量的暴力。
19:52 K: And man has accepted war as the way of life, whether in the office, or at home, or in the playing field, or anywhere, he has accepted war as a way of life, which is the very essence of violence. 克：人类把战争当作一种生活的方式， 不管是在办公室，还是在家里，还是在赛场上， 或者其他的地方，他都把战争当作一种生活的方式， 这就是暴力的本质。
20:09 S: Yes. 史：是的。
20:11 K: And aggression and all that is involved. So as long as man accepts violence, lives a way of life which is violent, he perpetuates fear and therefore violence and also accepts authority. 克：侵略性及其他事物也包含其中了。 因此只要人类接受暴力作为一种生活的方式， 他就在延续恐惧，因为延续暴力，他接受了权威。
20:31 S: So these three are a kind of vicious circle, each playing into the other. All right. 史：所以这就是暴力的循环， 彼此相互延续。是的。
20:37 K: And the churches say, live peacefully, be kind, love your neighbour, which is all sheer nonsense. They don’t mean it. It is merely a verbal assertion that has no meaning at all. It is just an idea because the morality of society – which is the morality of the church – is immoral. 克：然后教堂说，和平的生活， 要善良，爱你的邻居， 这都是彻底的废话，毫无意义， 只是口头上的断言， 并没有什么价值。 这只是社会的道德， ——也就是教堂的道德——（实际）是不道德。
21:07 S: As we try to see then these things that stand between us and lucidity and freedom, we find authority and fear and violence working together to obstruct us. Where do we go from there? 史：我们尝试去看清 阻碍在我们和清晰感、自由之间的东西， 我们发现了权威、恐惧和暴力， 他们共同阻碍了我们。 从这一点我们要去哪？
21:29 K: It’s not going to some place, sir, but understanding this fact that most of us live a life in this ambience, in this cage of authority, fear and violence. We can’t go beyond it, unless one is free from it, not intellectually or theoretically, but actually be free from every form of authority, – not the authority of the expert but the feeling of dependence on authority. 克：不是要去哪，先生， 而是去理解事实， 事实是我们绝大多数人生活在这种氛围中， 在权威、恐惧及暴力的牢笼之中。 我们不可能超越它们，除非一个人已经从其中解脱， 不是理智上或者理论上， 而是真正的从所有形式的权威中解脱 ——不是专家的权威， 而是依赖权威的感觉。
22:17 S: All right. 史：好的。
22:19 K: Then, is it possible for a human being to be free completely of fear? Not only at the superficial level of one’s consciousness, but also at the deeper level, what is called the unconscious. 克：因此，人类可能彻底从恐惧中解脱吗？ 不只是意识的表层， 还有更深的，被称为无意识的层面。
22:39 S: Is it possible?

K: That’s the question, otherwise you are bound to accept authority. Of anybody. Any Tom, Dick and Harry, with a little bit of knowledge, little bit of cunning explanation or intellectual formulas, you are bound to fall for him. But the question whether a human being, so heavily conditioned as he is, through propaganda of the church, through propaganda of society, morality and all the rest of it, whether such a human being can really be free from fear. That is the basic question, sir. 		史：这可能吗？

克：这就是问题所在， 否则你就注定要接受权威了。任何人的权威。 任何人，只要有一点点知识， 一点点狡猾的解释，或者聪明的套话， 你就注定去相信他。 但问题是， 被深刻制约的人类， 被教堂的宣传所制约， 被社会的宣传所制约，道德等等， 这样的人类可能从恐惧中解脱吗？ 这才是最基本的问题，先生。
23:18 S: That’s what I wait to hear. 史：这就是我想等着听的。
23:22 K: I say it is possible, not in abstraction, but actually it is possible. 克：我认识这是可能的，不是抽象的， 而是实际上，它是可能的。
23:30 S: All right. And my impulse again is to say, how. 史：很好，我的冲动就是问你“如何做到”。
23:33 K: Refrain. You see, when you say, how, you stop to learn. You cease to learn. 克：避免这么问。你看，当你这样问时，你就停止了学习。 你停止了学习。
23:44 S: All right, let’s just forget that I said that because I don’t want to get distracted. 史：好吧，那就忘掉我说的， 因为我不想分神。
23:50 K: No, no, you can never even ask that, ever, because we are learning: learning about the nature and the structure of human fear, at the deepest level and also at the most superficial level, and we are learning about it. And when you are learning you can’t ask suddenly, how am I to learn. There is no ‘how’ if you are interested, if the problem is vital, intense, it has to be solved to live peacefully. Then there is no ‘’how’, you say, let’s learn about it. The moment you bring in the ‘how’ you move away from the central fact of learning. 克：不不，你从来不该问这个问题，从来不该， 因为我们正在学习： 学习人类恐惧的本质和结构， 在最深以及最表面的层面， 我们在学习。 当你在学习时，你不会突然问 我要如何学习。 不存在“如何”，如果你感兴趣的话， 如果问题是重要的，强烈的， 只有解决了这个问题，才能和平的生活。 这样就不存在“如何”，你会说，”让我们学习它。“ 当你涉及”如何“时，你就偏离了 学习的核心事实。
24:38 S: All right, that’s fine. Let’s continue on the path of learning about this. 史：是的，这很好。 我们可以继续在学习的道路上。
24:45 K: Learning. So, what does it mean to learn? 克：学习。所以，学习意味着什么？
24:52 S: Are you asking me?

K: Yes. Obviously. What does it mean to learn? 		史：你在问我吗？

克：当然了。 学习意味着什么？
25:00 S: It means to perceive how one should proceed in a given domain. 史：它意味着观察一个人在某个给定的维度应该如何行动。
25:10 K: No, sir, surely. Here is a problem of fear. I want to learn about it. First of all I mustn’t condemn it, I mustn’t say, ‘it’s terrible’, and run away from it. 克：不是的，先生。 我们有恐惧的问题，我想去学习它。 首先，我不能指责它， 我不能说，”这太糟糕了“，然后逃离它。
25:26 S: It sounds to me that you have been condemning it in one way or another.

K: I don’t, I don’t, I want to learn. When I want to learn about something I look there is no condemnation at all. 		史：但是我听起来，你似乎在指责恐惧， 用一种或者另一种方法。

克：不，我没有，我想去学习。 当我学习某事时，我要观察， 完全不存在指责。
25:39 S: Well, we were going at this through a negative route... 史：好，我们通过消极的方法接近这个问题
25:43 K: Which is what I am doing. 克：这就是我正在做的。
25:44 S: And fear is an obstacle... 史：恐惧是一个障碍
25:47 K: About which I am going to learn.

S: All right. 		克：对于我要学习的东西是一个障碍。

史：是的。
25:50 K: Therefore I can’t condemn it. 克：因此我不能指责它。
25:53 S: Well, it’s not good, you are not advocating it. 史：这不好，你也不是在提倡它。
25:56 K: Ah, no. I am neither advocating or not. Here is a fact of fear. I want to learn about it. The moment I learn about something I am free of it. So learning matters – what is implied in learning. What is implied in learning? First of all, to learn about something there must be complete cessation of condemnation, or justification. 克：是的，我也不是在提倡它。 存在恐惧的事实，我想去学习它。 当我学习某事时，我就从中解脱了。 因此，学习意味着 学习暗示了什么？ 首先，要学习某事， 就完全不能有谴责，或者辩护。
26:30 S: All right. Yes, I can see that. If we are going to understand something if we keep our emotions out of it, and just try to dispassionately to... 史：是的，我能看到这一点。 如果我们要去理解某事， 如果我们把我们的感情脱离出来，只是无情的去
26:42 K: To learn. You are introducing words like ‘dispassion’, that’s unnecessary. If I want to learn about that camera, I begin to look at it, undo it, go into it. There is no question of dispassion or passion, I want to learn! So I want to learn about this question of fear. So to learn there must be no condemnation, no justification of fear, and therefore no escape verbally from the fact of fear. 克：去学习。 你又引入了”无情（dispassion）“这个词，这没必要。 如果你想学习那个相机， 我就看着它，拆开他，走进它。 不存在”激情“或者”无情“ 的问题， 我只想学习！ 所以我要学习恐惧的问题。 要学习首先要没有对恐惧的 谴责或辩护， 因此没有从恐惧的事实的言辞上的逃避。
27:26 S: All right. 史：是的。
27:28 K: But the tendency is to deny it. 克：但是我们倾向去否定它。
27:34 S: To deny the reality of fear ?

K: The reality of fear. The reality that fear is causing all these things. To deny by saying, ‘I must develop courage’. So, please, we are going into this problem of fear because it is really a very important question: whether human mind can ever be free of fear. 		史：否定恐惧的真实？

克：恐惧的真实。 事实上，恐惧造成了如此多的后果。 我们说“我必要发展勇气”，来否定恐惧。 所以，请让我们进入恐惧的问题， 因为这实在是一个非常重要的问题： 人类是否可以摆脱恐惧。
28:06 S: It certainly is. 史：是的。
28:08 K: Which means, whether the mind is capable of looking at fear, looking, not in abstraction, but actually at fear as it occurs. 克：这意味着，意识是否可以看着恐惧， 不是抽象的看，而是当恐惧发生时真实的看着它。
28:26 S: Facing fear.

K: Facing fear. 		史：面对恐惧。

克：面对恐惧。
28:29 S: All right, we should do this, and I agree with you that we can’t deny it. 史：是的，我们应该这样做， 我同意你，我们不能否定它。
28:34 K: To face it, no condemnation. 克：面对恐惧，不要谴责。
28:39 S: All right.

K: No justification. 		史：是的。

克：也不要辩护。
28:43 S: Simply being truly objective. 史：只是真正的做到客观。
28:46 K: Aware of fear. 克：觉察恐惧。
28:48 S: Acknowledging? 史：承认它？
28:50 K: I don’t acknowledge it. If there is the camera there I don’t acknowledge it, it is there. 克：我不会承认它。 如果那里有一个照相机，我不会去承认它，它就在那。
28:58 S: All right. I don’t want to distract our line of thought with these words. 史：好，我不想用词语干扰我们的思考。
29:03 K: Please, sir, that’s why one has to be awfully careful of words here: the word is not the thing, therefore I don’t want to move away from this. To learn about fear there must be no condemnation or justification. That’s a fact. Then the mind can look at fear. What is fear? There is every kind of fear: fear of darkness, fear of the wife, fear of the husband, fear of war, fear of storm, so many psychological fears. And you cannot possibly have the time to analyse all the fears, that would take the whole life time, by then you have not even understood any fear. 克：请注意先生，这就是为什么一个人要十分注意词语， 词语并不是事物本身，因此我不想偏离出去。 去学习恐惧，就必须没有谴责或者辩护。 这是个事实。然后意识就能看着恐惧。 恐惧是什么？ 存在各种各样的恐惧：恐惧黑暗，恐惧妻子， 恐惧丈夫，恐惧战争，恐惧风暴， 非常多的心理上的恐惧。 你不可能有时间去分析所有这些恐惧， 这会花掉一生的时间， 到那时你甚至还没有理解任何恐惧。
29:56 S: So it is the phenomenon of fear itself rather than any... 史：所以存在恐惧这种现象本而非
29:59 K: Than any particular fear.

S: Right. Now what should we learn? 		克：任何特定的恐惧。

史：是的。 所以我们要学什么？
30:04 K: Wait, I am going to show you, sir, go slow. Now to learn about something you must be in complete contact with it. Look, sir, I want to learn about fear. Therefore I must look at it, I must face it. Now to face something implies a mind that does not want to solve the problem of fear. 克：等一等，我会展示给你的，先生，我们慢一点。 要学习某事你必须和他彻底的接触。 看，先生，我想去学习恐惧。 因此我必须看着它，面对它。 面对某事意味着，意识 不想解决恐惧的问题。
30:41 S: To look at fear... 史：看着恐惧
30:43 K: ... is not to solve the problem of fear. Look, look, this is very important to understand because then, if I want to solve fear I am more concerned with the solution of fear than facing fear. 克：……不想去解决恐惧的问题。 看，看，理解这一点非常重要， 因为如果我想解决恐惧， 我就更关心恐惧的解决，而非面对恐惧。
31:03 S: A moment ago though we were saying we should think... 史：但是之前我们在说我们认为
31:06 K: I am facing it. But if I say, 'I must solve it', I am beyond it already, I am not looking. 克：我在面对它。但是如果我说， “我一定要解决它”，我就已经越过它了，而没有观察它。
31:14 S: You say that if we are trying to solve the problem of fear, we are not truly facing it. Is that right? 史：你说如果我们尝试去解决恐惧的问题， 我们就不是真的在面对它。是这样吗？
31:20 K: Quite right, sir. You see, to face fear the mind must give its complete attention to fear, and if you give partial attention which is to say, ‘I want to solve it and go beyond it’, you are not giving it complete attention. 克：没错，先生。你看，为了面对恐惧， 意识要对恐惧给予彻底的关注， 如果你只给予了部分的关注，也就说， “我想解决它，然后超越它“， 你就没有给予它全部的注意力。
31:42 S: I can see if you have split attention you're not fully attentive. 史：我能看到，如果你给予分裂的关注，你就没有全然关注。
31:46 K: So, in giving complete attention to the learning about fear there are several problems involved in it. I must be brief because our time is limited. We generally consider fear as something outside us. So there is this question of the observer and the observed. The observer says, 'I am afraid', and he puts fear as something away from him. 克：所以，在给予彻底的关注进而学习恐惧的 过程中，存在几个问题。 我只能简单说下，因为我们时间有限。 我们通常认为恐惧是某种我们自身之外的东西。 因此存在观察者和被观察之物的问题。 观察者说，”我很恐惧“， 他把恐惧当成某种他之外的东西。
32:20 S: I am not sure. When I feel afraid, I am afraid, I feel it very much in here. 史：我不确定。 当我感到恐惧时，我感觉它就在我心里。
32:26 K: But when you observe it, it is different. 克：但是当你观察它时，是另外一回事。
32:33 S: When I observe fear... 史：当我观察恐惧
32:35 K: Then I put it outside. 克：我把它当成外在的东西。
32:38 S: Well, again that doesn’t seem quite right. 史：这看起来并不清楚。
32:42 K: All right. At the moment of fear there is neither the observer nor the observed. 克：好吧。在恐惧的瞬间， 既不存在观察者也不存在被观察之物。
32:49 S: That is very true.

K: That is all I am saying. At the crisis, at the moment of actual fear there is no observer. 		史：是的。

克：这就是我要说的。 在危机的瞬间，存在真实的恐惧的瞬间，并不存在观察者。
32:58 S: It fills the horizon. 史：它充满了地平线。
33:00 K: Now, the moment you begin to look at it, face it, there is this division. 克：现在，在你开始观察它，面对它时， 就存在分裂。
33:07 S: Between the fearful self and the...

K: The non-fearful self. 		史：在恐惧的自我和……

克：不恐惧的自我。
33:11 S: ... the bear who is going to eat me out there. 史：……那只走来走去要吃掉我的熊。
33:14 K: So in trying to learn about fear, there is this division between the observer and the observed. Now, is it possible to look at fear without the observer? Please, sir, this is really quite an intricate question, a complex question, one has to go into it very deeply. As long as there is the observer who is going to learn about the fear, there is a division. 克：所以，在尝试学习恐惧的过程中， 存在观察者和被观察之物的分裂。 现在，可能没有观察者的看着恐惧吗？ 先生，这是，一个非常复杂的问题， 一个人要深入的探究它。 只要存在观察者， 尝试去学习恐惧，就存在分裂。
33:51 S: That’s true. We are not in full contact with it. 史：这是事实。我们没有完全地接触它。
33:55 K: Therefore in that division is the conflict of trying to get rid of fear, justify fear. So is it possible to look at fear without the observer, so that you are completely in contact with it all the time? 克：因此在分裂中，存在 尝试去克服恐惧，为恐惧辩护的冲突。 有可能没有观察者地看着恐惧吗？ 因此你是始终在彻底地和恐惧接触。
34:19 S: Well, then you are experiencing fear. 史：这样你就是在经历恐惧。
34:23 K: I wouldn’t like to use that word ‘experience’, because experience implies going through something. Finishing with it. 克：我不会用经历这个词（experience）， 因为经历意味着穿过某事， 结束它。
34:33 S: All right. I don’t know what word. It seems better than ‘looking at’, because ‘looking at’ does seem to imply a division between an observer and the observed. 史：是的，我不知道哪个词好。 （经历）似乎好于”看着“（looking at）， 因为”看着“意味着，观察者和被观察之物 的分裂。
34:41 K: Therefore we are using that word ‘observing’. Being aware of fear without choice, which means the choice implies the observer, choosing whether I don’t like this, or I like this. Therefore when the observer is absent there is choiceless awareness of fear. 克：因此我们会用”观察“（observing）这个词。 没有选择的觉察恐惧， 选择就意味着观察者， 在他喜欢和不喜欢的东西间做选择。 因此当观察者缺席时，就有无选择的对恐惧的觉察。
35:07 S: All right.

K: Right. Then what takes place? That’s the whole question. The observer creates the linguistic difference between himself and the thing observed. Language comes in there. Therefore the word prevents being completely in contact with fear. 		史：是的。

克：没错。 然后会发生什么？这就是整个问题。 观察者创造出了 他和被观察事物的言语上的差异。 语言被引入了。 因此词语阻碍了彻底地和恐惧接触。
35:43 S: Yes. Words can be a screen. 史：是的。词语就像帷幕。
35:46 K: Yes. That’s all that we are saying. So the word mustn’t interfere. 克：是的。这就是我们在说的。 所以词语一定不能干扰。
35:51 S: True. We have to get beyond that.

K: Beyond the word. But is that possible, to be beyond the word? Theoretically we say, yes, but we are slave to words. 		史：是的。我们必须超越它们。

克：超越词语。 但是有可能超越词语吗？ 理论上，我们说可以，但是我们依然是词语的奴隶。
36:04 S: Far too much so. 史：是的，很严重。
36:06 K: It is obvious, we are slave to words. So the mind has to become aware of its own slavery to word, realising that the word is never the thing. So the mind is free of the word to look. That is all implied. Sir, look, the relationship between two people, husband and wife, is the relationship of images. Obviously, there is no dispute about it. You have your image, and she has her image about you. The relationship is between these two images. Now, the real relationship, the human relationship is when the images don’t exist. In the same way the relationship between the observer and the observed ceases when the word is not. So he is directly in contact with fear. 克：很明显我们是词语的奴隶。 所以意识必须觉察到他自身是词语的奴隶， 认识到词语并不是事物本身。 因此意识可以摆脱词语去看。 这就是其中暗示的内容。 先生，看，两个人之间的关系， 丈夫和妻子的关系就是形象的关系。 很显然，没有什么争议。 你有你对她的意象，她有她对你的意象。 关系是基于这两个意象。 现在，人类真正的关系， 只有意象不存在时，才存在。 同样的，观察者与被观察之物的关系， 当词语不存在时，就消失了。 所以，他可以直接接触 恐惧。
37:18 S: We pass through.

K: There it is. There is fear. Now there is fear at the conscious level – which one can understand fairly quickly. But there are the deeper layers of fear, so-called at the hidden parts of the mind. To be aware of that. Now is it possible to be aware without analysis? Analysis takes time.

S: Right. Surely it’s possible. 		史：我们讲清楚了。

克：存在恐惧。 现在只是意识层面的恐惧 ——这种恐惧一个人能快速的理解。 但是也有更深层次的恐惧， 所谓的意识的隐藏的部分。 觉察到它们。 有可能不靠分析来觉察到吗？ 分析需要时间。

史：是的，这肯定可以。
37:55 K: How? Not the ‘how’ of method. You say, surely it is possible. Is it? There is this whole reservoir of fear – of the fear of the race, you follow, the whole content of the unconscious. The content is the unconscious. 克：如何？不是方法的”如何“， 你说，这有可能，是这样吗？ 存在恐惧的蓄水池 ——种族的恐惧，你知道，整个无意识的内容。 内容就是无意识本身。
38:18 S: All right. 史：是的。
38:19 K: Now, to be aware of all that, not through dreams, again that takes too long. 克：现在，觉察到这一切， 不是通过梦，那也太久了。
38:28 S: Now you are talking about whether we can be explicitly aware of the full reach of mind? 史：现在，你在说我们能否明确知道， 意识的全部领域？
38:35 K: Yes. The full content, reach of the mind which is both the conscious as well as the deeper layers. The totality of consciousness. 克：是的。全部的内容，意识 以及更深层次的全部领域。意识的全部。
38:47 S: Yes. And can we be explicitly aware of all of that? I am not sure.

K: I say it is possible. It is only possible when you are aware during the day what you say, the words you use, the gestures, the way you talk, the way you walk, what your thoughts are, – to be completely and totally aware of all that. 		史：是的，我们能明确的知道这一切吗？ 我不确定。

克：我说，这有可能。 只有在白天时，你对你说的话， 你用的词语，你的手势，你说话的方式， 你走路的方式，你的想法等等， ——彻底、完全的觉察这一切。
39:13 S: Do you think all of that can be before you in total awareness?

K: Yes, sir. Absolutely. When there is no condemnation and justification. When you are directly in contact with it. 		史：你是否认为这些 在全然的觉察中能实现？

克：是的，当然。 当不存在谴责和辩解。 当你和它们直接接触。
39:30 S: It seems to me that the mind is like an iceberg with regions of it... 史：对我来说意识 就好像冰山
39:35 K: An iceberg is nine-tenths below and one-tenth above. It is possible to see the whole of it, if you are aware during the day of your thoughts, of your feelings, aware of the motives, which demands a mind that is highly sensitive. 克：十分之九在水面下，十分之一露出来的冰山。 有可能看到它的全部， 如果你在白天觉察你的意识，感觉， 动机， 这要一个高度敏感的意识。
39:58 S: We can certainly be aware of much, much more than we usually are. When you say we can be aware... 史：我们肯定能觉察远比我们通常多的内容。 当我们说我们可以觉察
40:06 K: Totally, yes, sir.

S: …of all the psychological factors. 		克：完全的，先生。

史：……觉察所有的心理因素。
40:09 K: I am showing you, I am showing you! You are denying it. You say, ‘it is not possible’, then it is not possible. 克：我在展示给你，我正在展示给你！ 你在否定它。 你说，“这不可能”，然后就真的不可能了。
40:16 S: No, I’d like to believe that it’s possible. 史：不，我愿意去相信这是可能的。
40:18 K: No, it’s not a question of belief. I don’t have to believe in what I see. It’s only when I don’t see I believe – in God, in this or that. 克：不。这不是一个相信的问题。 我没必要去相信我看到的东西。 只有当我看不到时，我才去相信——上帝，或者不管什么。
40:29 S: For me it is a matter of belief, maybe not for you because you... 史：对我来说，这是一个信仰的问题，对你来说也许不是，因为你
40:32 K: Ah no. Belief is the most destructive part of life. Why should I believe the sun rises? I see the sunrise. When I do not know what love is then I believe in love. 克：不。信仰是生命中最具破坏力的东西。 我为什么要信仰太阳升起？我可以看到太阳升起。 只有我不知道爱是什么的时候才会要去信仰爱。
40:48 S: Like so many times when I listen to you speak it seems to me like a half-truth which is stated as a full truth, and I wonder whether that is for the sake of emphasis, or whether it really is, you really mean to carry it all the way. 史：就像许多次我听你讲话， 对我来说那是部分的真理，但是你却说它们是全部的真理， 我好奇你这么说是否是为了强调， 或者真的是这样，你真的认为是这样吗？
41:11 K: No, sir. To me it really is. 克：是的，先生，对我来说是真实的。
41:13 S: We have been speaking of the elements that block us, the things that block us from a life of lucidity and freedom: authority, violence, fear. Our time is short and I wouldn’t like to spend all the time on these obstacles. Is there anything affirmative we can say of this condition? 史：我们谈到了阻碍我们的元素， 阻碍我们清晰、自由地生活的元素： 权威，暴力，恐惧。 我们的时间不多， 我不想把全部时间都花在讨论障碍上。 现在我们可以说什么肯定的事吗？
41:36 K: Sir, anything affirmative indicates authority. It’s only the authoritarian mind that says, ‘let’s be affirmed’. Which is in opposition to negation. But the negation we are talking about has no opposite. 克：先生，任何肯定的事情意味着权威。 只有权威的意识，才会说“这是肯定的”。 这会与否定相反。 但是我们讨论的否定并没有对立面。
42:00 S: Well, now when I ask you for an affirmative statement it doesn’t seem to me that I am turning over a decision to use an authority. I just want to hear if you have something interesting to say which I will then stand judgement upon. 史：是的，现在当我问你是否有肯定的声明时， 我并不想， 引入权威感。 我只是想听你说一些有趣的事， 一些我可以用来做判断的事。
42:18 K: With regard to what? 克：你指的什么？
42:20 S: As to whether it speaks to my condition. 史：判断一些是否适合我的条件。
42:23 K: What? With regard to what, you said 'something', about what? 克：那是指什么，你说的”某事“是指什么？
42:28 S: About the state of life that it seems to me we are groping for in our words to describe. 史：对我来说那意味着生命的状态， 我们被词语和描述困住了。
42:37 K: Are you trying to say, sir, that life is only in the present? 克：先生，你是在说生命只存在于现在吗？
42:46 S: In one sense I think that is true. Is that what you were saying? 史：我认为这是真的。这就是你要说的吗？
42:49 K: No, I am asking you, is this what you are asking: is life to be divided into the past, present and future – which becomes fragmentary – and not a total perception of living? 克：不，我在问你，你在问的问题， 是否把生命分成了过去，现在和未来， 这些全是碎片化的， 而不是对存在的整体的观察？
43:08 S: Well, again as so often it seems to me that the answer is both/and. In one sense it is a unity and it is present and the present is all we have, but man is a time-binding animal, as they say, who looks before and after. 史：是的，对我来说，答案是二者都是。 在某种意义上， 现在是我们拥有的一切， 但是人是一种被时间束缚的动物，就像他们说的，会向前或者向后看。
43:25 K: So man is the result of time, not only evolutionary but chronological as well as psychological. 克：所以人是时间的结果， 不只是演化的时间， 也是心理上的时间。
43:35 S: Yes. 史：是的。
43:36 K: So he is the result of time: the past, the present and the future. Now, he lives mostly in the past. 克：所以他是时间的结果：过去，现在和未来的结果。 现在，他绝大部分时候都活在过去。
43:50 S: All right, mostly. 史：是的，绝大部分时候。
43:51 K: He is the past. 克：他就是过去。
43:55 S: All right. Again it’s that half-truth. 史：是的。这就是部分的真理。
43:59 K: No, no, I’ll show it to you. He is the past because he lives in memory. 克：不不，我会展示给你。 他就是过去，因为他活在记忆之中。
44:05 S: Not totally. 史：不全是。
44:06 K: Wait, sir. Follow it step by step. He lives in the past and therefore he thinks and examines and looks from the background of the past. 克：等一下，先生。一步一步来。 他活在过去，因此他 通过过去的背景，思考，检查和观察。
44:18 S: Yes. Which is both good and bad. 史：是的，这好坏参半。
44:22 K: No, no. We are not saying good and bad. There is no good past or bad past. We are concerned with the past. Don’t give it a name. 克：不不，我们不是在讨论好坏。 不存在好的或者坏的过去。 我们只是在考虑过去。不要给它一个名字。
44:31 S: All right. 史：是的。
44:32 K: Like calling it good or bad, then we are lost. He lives in the past, examines everything from the past and projects the future from the past. So he lives in the past, he is the past. And when he thinks of the future or the present, he thinks in terms of the past. 克：称呼它是好是坏，我们就会迷失。 他活在过去，从过去的背景检查所有事， 然后从过去投射出未来。 所以他活在过去，他就是过去。 当他思考未来或者现在时， 他是基于过去在考虑。
45:01 S: All right. It seems to me that most of the time that is true but there are new perceptions that break through, new experiences that break through the momentum of the past. 史：是的。大部分时间，对我来说这都是事实， 但是也会有新的觉察，可以突破这些， 新的经验可以突破过去的动力。
45:15 K: New experiences break through only when there is an absence of the past. 克：只有在过去缺席时， 新的经验才可以突破。
45:23 S: Well, it seems to me it is like a merging of things that we perforce bring with us from the past, but bring to play upon the novelty, the newness of the present and it is a fusion of those two. 史：是的，对我来说他像是事物的融合， 我们必须带着过去的自己， 但也要发现新的事物，现在中存在的新的事物， 这是二者的融合。
45:38 K: Look, sir, if I want to understand something new I must look at it with clear eyes. I can’t bring the past, with all the recognition process, with all the memories, and then translate what I see as new. Surely, surely, now just a minute: the man who invented the jet, must have forgotten, or be completely familiar with the propeller, and then there was an absence of knowledge in which he discovered the new. 克：看，先生，如果你想理解某样新事物， 我就要用清晰的眼睛看着它。 我不能带着过去的所有认知的过程， 带着所有的记忆， 然后翻译我看到的新的东西。 当然，当然，就让我说几分钟， 发明喷气式飞机的人，必须忘记， 或者彻底的熟悉螺旋桨， 然后存在知识的缺席， 在这种状态下他发现了新的东西。
46:15 S: That’s fine.

K: Wait, wait. It is not a question of, that’s fine. That is the only way to operate in life. That is, there must be complete awareness of the past, an absence of the past, to see the new. Or to come upon the new.

S: All right. 		史：很好。

克：等等。 这不是”很好“的问题。 这是唯一可以在生活中运行的方法。 也就是，必须有对过去的彻底的觉察， 过去要缺席，才能看到新的东西。 或者遇到新的东西。

史：是的。
46:40 K: You are conceding reluctantly. 克：你承认的很不情愿。
46:42 S: I am conceding reluctantly because I think I see what you are saying, and I think I agree with the point that you are making, but it is also true that one operates in terms of... 史：因为我认为我看到了你所说的东西， 我也同意你说的东西， 但是一个人也可以通过……运行。
46:56 K: The past.

S: …symbols that one has. And it is not as though we begin de novo. 		克：通过过去。

史：……一个人拥有的符号。 我们也不是从头开始。
47:02 K: De novo is not possible, but we have to begin de novo because life demands it, because we have lived in this way, accepting war, hatred, brutality, competition, and anxiety, guilt, all that. We have accepted that, we live that way. I am saying: to bring about a different quality, a different way of living the past must disappear. 克：从头开始是不可能的，但是我们必须从头开始， 因为生命需要如此，因为我们接受了战争， 仇恨，残忍，竞争，焦虑，内疚等等作为生活的方式。 我们接受了这一切，我们就这样生活。 我在说：要带来一种全新的品质。 一种不同的生活方式，在其中过去必须消失。
47:32 S: We must be open to the new. 史：我们必须对新的事物打开自己。
47:34 K: Yes. Therefore the past must have no meaning. 克：是的。因此，过去必然没有意义。
47:38 S: That I can’t go along with. 史：这我不能同意。
47:41 K: That is what the whole world is objecting to. The established order says, ‘I can’t let go' – for the new to be. And the young people throughout the world say, ‘let’s revolt against the old’. But they don’t understand the whole complications of it. So they say, what have you given us, except examinations, job, and repetition of the old pattern – war and favourite wars, wars. 克：这就是整个世界在反对的东西。 被构建好的秩序说，"我不能离开”——进而让新的事物出现。 全世界的年轻人都在说， “让我们反抗旧秩序“。 但是他们不理解其中全部的复杂性。 所以，他们说，你们都给了我们什么，除了考试，工作， 旧模式中的名声，战争——你们最爱战争了。
48:16 S: Well, you are pointing out, it seems to me, the importance of not being slaves to the past. And that’s so true and I don’t want to in any way... 史：你正在指出的东西，对我来说， 重要的是不要成为过去的奴隶。 这是真的，我不想通过任何方法
48:29 K: The past being the tradition, the past being the pattern of morality, which is the social morality, which is not moral. 克：过去就是传统，过去就是道德的模式， 社会道德就是非道德。
48:37 S: But at the same time there is only one generation, namely ourselves, that separates the future generation from the cave man. 史：但是同时，只有我们这一代， 能把未来的一代和洞穴人区分开。
48:47 K: I agree with all that. 克：我同意。
48:48 S: If the cave man were to be totally rescinded we would start right now. 史：如果洞穴人就要彻底消失，我们现在就得开始。
48:52 K: Oh, no, no. To break through the past, sir, demands a great deal of intelligence, a great deal of sensitivity – to the past. You can’t just break away from it. 克：不不不。先生，从过去中解脱 需要大量的智慧， 极高的敏感度，对过去的敏感。 你不能就这么摆脱了过去。
49:06 S: OK, I am content. 史：好吧，我满意。
49:12 K: So the problem really, sir, is, can we live a different way? 克：所以，先生，问题实际上是，我们能用不同的方式生活吗？
49:20 S: Hear, hear! 史：我想听一下！
49:22 K: A different way in which there are no wars, no hatreds, in which man loves man, without competition, without division, saying you are a Christian, you are a Catholic, you are a Protestant, you are this... that’s all so immature! It has no meaning. It’s an intellectual sophisticated division. And that is not a religious mind at all, that’s not religion. A religious mind is a mind that has no hatred, that lives completely without fear, without anxiety, in which there is not a particle of antagonism. Therefore a mind that loves – that is a different dimension of living altogether. And nobody wants that. 克：一种不同的生活方式，其中没有战争，仇恨， 人们可以彼此相爱，没有竞争，没有分裂， 不会说你是基督徒，你是天主教徒， 你是新教徒，你是这个或者那个 这些都太幼稚了！没有任何意义。 这是基于智力的，复杂的划分方式。 这完全不是宗教意识，这不是宗教。 宗教意识是没有仇恨的意识， 可以完全没有恐惧的生活， 没有焦虑，没有任何的对抗性。 因此，这样的意识就在爱 ——那是完全不同的生活的维度。 但是没人想这样。
50:20 S: And in another sense everybody wants that. 史：某种意义上也许所有人都想这样。
50:22 K: But they won’t go after it. 克：但是他们不会追求它。
50:26 S: They won’t go after it?

K: No, of course not. They are distracted by so many other things, they are so heavily conditioned by their past, they hold on to it. 		史：他们不会追求吗？

克：当然不会。 他们被如此多的事所分心， 他们被制约的太深了，被过去制约，他们坚守着过去。
50:34 S: But I think there are some who will go after it. 史：但我认为有一些追求它的人。
50:37 K: Wait, sir, very few. 克：等等先生，这非常少。
50:39 S: The numbers don’t matter. 史：数字并不重要。
50:41 K: The minority is always the most important thing. 克：少数派永远是最重要的。
50:45 S: Krishnamurti, as I listen to you and try to listen through the words to what you are saying, it seems to me that what I hear is that, first, I should work out and each of us should work out his own salvation, not leaning on authorities outside; second, not to allow words to form a film between us and actual experience – not to mistake the menu for the meal – and third, not to let the past swallow up the present, take possession, to responding to a conditioning of the past, but rather to be always open to the new, the novel, the fresh. And finally, it seems to me you are saying something like the key to doing this is a radical reversal in our point of view. It is as though we were prisoners straining at the bars for the light, and looking for the glimpse of light that we see out there and wondering how we can get out towards it, while actually the door of the cell is open behind us. If only we would turn around, we could walk out into freedom. This is what is sounds to me like you are saying. Is this it? 史：克里希那穆提，我尝试穿过词语去聆听 你说的东西， 对我来说，你所说的首先是， 每个人都要研究自身是否是奴隶， 不依赖外在的权威； 其次，不要允许词语在我们和真实的经验中做干扰 ——不要弄错菜单—— 其次，不要允许过去的阴影控制现在， 不要对过去的制约作出反应， 而是永远对新的，新鲜的事物，保持开放。 最终，对我来说，你似乎在说， 做到这一切的关键是视野的彻底转变。 我们就像一个囚犯看着眼前的光带， 观察着光带我们想走出去， 然后思考我们如果才能走出去， 却没发现房间的门就在我们身后打开着。 如果我们转过身来，我们就能进入自由之中。 这就是我理解的你说的东西，是这样吗？
52:13 K: A little bit, sir, a little bit. 克：部分的，一小部分。
52:15 S: All right. What else? What other than that? Or if you want to amplify. 史：好吧，那还有什么？ 或者你想再详述一下。
52:23 K: Surely, sir, in this is involved the everlasting struggle, conflict, man caught in his own conditioning, and straining, struggling, beating his head to be free. And again we have accepted – with the help of religions and all the rest of the group – that effort is necessary. That’s part of life. To me that is the highest form of blindness, of limiting man to say, ‘you must everlastingly live in effort’. 克：先生，这其中 蕴含着无尽的挣扎和冲突， 人类被自身的制约所束缚， 竭力，挣扎着去获得自由。 我们又接受了 ——宗教以及所有其他组织的帮助—— 我们认为努力是必然的，这就是生活的一部分。 对我来说，这是最高形式的盲目， 被制约的人们说，“你必须永远生活在努力之中”。
53:20 S: And you think we don’t have to.

K: Not, ‘I think’, it is... Sir, it is not a question of thought. Thought is the most... 		史：你认为我们不必这样？

克：不是“我认为”，就是这样 先生，这不是一个想法的问题。想法是最
53:28 S: Let’s delete those two words and just say we don’t have to. 史：让我们删掉这两个词，我们只说”我们不必“。
53:32 K: But to live without effort requires the greatest sensitivity and the highest form of intelligence. You don’t just say, ‘well, I won’t struggle’, and become like a cow. But one has to understand how conflict arises, the duality in us, the fact of ‘what is’, and ‘what should be’, there is the conflict. If there is no ‘what should be’, – which is ideological, which is non-real, which is fiction – and see ‘what is’, and face it, live with it without the ‘what should be’, then there is no conflict at all. It’s only when you compare, evaluate with ‘what should be’, and then look with ‘what should be’ at the ‘what is’, then conflict arises. 克：但是没有努力的生活需要巨大的敏感度， 以及最高形式的智慧。 你不能只是说，“好了。我不会挣扎了”。然后变成了一头奶牛。 一个人要理解冲突是如何产生的，我们中的二元性， ”事实如何“（what is）和”应当如何“（what should be）之间的冲突。 如果没有“应当如何”——也就是意识观念的， 不真实的，虚构的—— 而是看着”事实如何“，面对它，和它一起生活， 没有”应当如何“， 然后就完全不存在分裂。 只有当你通过”应当如何“，去比较，评价时， 看着”事实如何“和”应当如何“， 其中就存在冲突。
54:41 S: There should be no tension between the ideal and the actual. 史：事实和理想之间不应该存在紧张感。
54:45 K: No ideal at all. Why should we have an ideal? The ideal is the most idiotic form of conceptual thinking. Why should I have an ideal? When the fact is burning there, why should I have an ideal about anything? 克：根本就没有理想。我们为什么要有一个理想？ 理想是概念化的思考的最愚蠢的模式。 我为什么要有一个理想？ 当时事实正在燃烧，我为什么需要对任何事的理想？
55:00 S: Well, now once more when you speak like that it seems to me that you break it into an either/or. 史：是的，当你再一次说起这些时，对我来说， 你似乎把他打碎成
55:07 K: No, no.

S: Not the ideal but the actual where it seems to me the truth is somehow both of these. 		克：不不。

史：不是理念而是真实的， 对我来说，真理似乎是二者兼有之。
55:14 K: Ah, no. Truth is not a mixture of the ideal and the ‘what is’, then you produce some melange of some dirt. There is only ‘what is’. Sir, look, take a very simple example: we human beings are violent. Why should I have an ideal of non-violence? Why can’t I deal with the fact? 克：不不，真理不是观念和”事实如何“的混合物， 这样你就是在生产一些泥土的杂烩。 只有”事实如何“。 先生，看，举一个非常简单的例子，我们人类是暴力的， 我们为什么要有非暴力的概念呢？ 我们为什么不能处理事实？
55:41 S: Of violence?

K: Of violence, without non-violence. The ideal is an abstraction, is a distraction. The fact is I am violent, man is violent. Let’s tackle that, let’s come to grips with that and see if we can’t live without violence. 		史：暴力的事实？

克：暴力的事实，不考虑非暴力。 理念就是抽象，是一种分心。 事实就是我是暴力的，人类是暴力的。 让我们处理，解决这个问题， 看看我们能否没有暴力的生活。
56:02 S: But can... 史：但是
56:05 K: Please, sir, there is no dualistic process in this. There is only the fact that I am violent, man is violent, and is it possible to be free of that. Why should I introduce the idealistic nonsense into it? 克：先生，这其中就没有二元对立的过程。 只有我是暴力的，人类是暴力的，这个事实， 还有是否可能从中解脱。 我为什么要引入理想主义的废话？
56:26 S: No dualism, you say, no separation, and in your view is it the case that there is no separation? 史：你说没有二元对立，没有分别， 从你的视角看，这是没有分裂的情况吗？
56:34 K: Absolutely. 克：当然。
56:37 S: Is there any separation, you, me? 史：那你和我之间存在分别吗？
56:39 K: Sir, wait, physically there is. You have got a black suit, are a fairer person than me, and so on. 克：等一下，先生，物理上存在分别。 你穿黑色的西装，看起来比我精神多了，等等。
56:46 S: But you don’t feel dualistic.

K: If I felt dualistic I wouldn’t even sit down to discuss with you, then intellectually we play with each other. 		史：但是你没有二元对立的感觉。

克：如果我感到二元对立， 我根本就不会坐在这里和你讨论， 那我们就只是在玩智力的游戏。
56:56 S: Right. Now perhaps we are saying the same thing, but always it comes out in my mind it’s a both/and – we are both separate and united. Both. 史：是的。现在，也许我们在说同样的事， 但是我的头脑总觉得二者都有， 我们既分别又联合。
57:06 K: No. Sir, when you love somebody with your heart, not with your mind, do you feel separate? 克：不，先生，当你用心，而不是意识的头脑，去爱某人时， 你会有分别感吗？
57:11 S: I do in some... it's both. I feel both separate and together. 史：我有时……我同时会感到分别和联合感。
57:16 K: Then it is not love. 克：那这不是爱。
57:18 S: I wonder because part of the joy of love is the relationship which involves in some sense, like Ramakrishna said, ‘I don’t want to be sugar, I want to eat sugar’. 史：我怀疑这一点，因为爱的关系中的快乐， 在某些情况下，就像罗摩克里希那说的， “我不想变成糖，我只想吃糖”。
57:30 K: I don’t know Ramakrishna, I don’t want any authority, I don’t want to quote any bird.

S: Don’t get hung up on this. 		克：我不知道罗摩克里希那，或者其他任何权威， 我甚至不想引用一只鸟。

史：不要为这个话题烦恼。
57:37 K: Sir, no! We are dealing with facts, not with what somebody said. The fact is... 克：不，先生。我们在处理事实， 不是处理某人说过“事实是怎样……”。
57:45 S: That in love, part of the beauty and the glory of it, is the sense of unity embracing what in certain respects is separate. 史：那是爱，是美的一部分，还有爱的荣耀， 去紧紧联合在一起，同时在某些领域分开。
57:58 K: Sir, just a minute, sir. Let’s be a little more unromantic about it. The fact is when there is love between man and woman, in that is involved possession, domination, authority, jealousy, all that is involved in it. Of course there is. And comfort, sexual pleasure, and the remembrance. All that. A bundle of all that. 克：先生，就几分钟。让我们不要这么浪漫。 事实是，现在男人和女人的爱中 包含占有，主导，权威，嫉妒， 这一切全都包含其中。当然如此。 还有舒适，性的快感，记忆。 所有这一切，这一大堆。
58:32 S: And there’s some positive things you have left out, but you are assuming those.

K: Yes, yes. A bundle of all that. Is love jealousy? Is love pleasure? Is love desire? If it is pleasure, it is merely the activity of thought, saying, ‘Well, I slept with that woman, therefore she is mine’ and the remembrance of all that. That’s not love. Thought is not love. Thought breeds fear, thought breeds pain, thought breeds pleasure, and pleasure is not love. 		史：所以你漏掉了一些积极的事物， 但是你是这样假设的。

克：是的，一堆这样的事。 爱是嫉妒吗？ 爱是快感吗？爱是欲望吗？ 快感，只是思想的活动， 说，“我和这个女人睡过觉，所以她是我的”， 还有相关的记忆。 这不是爱，思想不是爱。 思想孕育了恐惧，思想孕育了痛苦， 思想孕育了快感，而快感不是爱。
59:13 S: Thought breeds only the negative?

K: What is the positive? What is the positive thing that thought produces, except mechanical things?

S: A love poem. 		史：思想只能孕育消极的事情吗？

克：什么是积极的事情？ 思想创造出过什么积极的事情？ 除了一些机械性的事物。

史：一首情诗。
59:24 K: Sir, love poem. What? The man feels something and puts it down. The putting down is irrelevant, merely a form of communication. But to feel it ! It's nothing to do with thought. To translate it then is necessary, for thought. But to love... 克：先生，什么情诗？ 一个人感受到一些东西，然后把它写下来。 写下来的过程并不重要，这只是一种沟通的形式。 重要的是去感受它！这和思想无关。 翻译的过程中，思想是必要的。但是去爱
59:48 S: Thought and words can also give form to our feelings which would remain inchoate without them. Bring them to resolution, to satisfying resolutions, through their expression. 史：思想和词语也能给我们感觉， 没有他们（感受）是不成熟的。 通过表达， 让（感受）得以被分辨。
1:00:05 K: Is relationship a matter of thought? 克：关系是思想的过程吗？
1:00:10 S: Not only, but thought can contribute to a relationship. 史：不，不只是，但是思想可以给关系做贡献。
1:00:17 K: Thought is always the old, relationship is something new. 克：思想永远是旧的，关系则是崭新的事物。
1:00:22 S: Yes, but there are new thoughts. 史：是的，但是也有新的思想。
1:00:24 K: Ah! There is no such thing as new thoughts. Forgive me to be so emphatic. 克：啊！不存在新的思想。 请原谅我如此坚决。
1:00:30 S: No, I like that. 史：不，我喜欢这样。
1:00:31 K: I don’t think there is a new thought. Thought can never be free because thought is the response of memory, thought is the response of the past. 克：我不认为有新的思想。 思想永远不会自由，因为思想只是记忆的反应， 思想是过去的反应。
1:00:40 S: When a great poet comes through with the right words to articulate a new perception, nobody has before, not even God, has thought of those particular words. 史：当一个大诗人写出一些好的词句时， 他创造了一种新的认识，之前的人从未有过的（新认识）， 甚至神，上帝，也没想到那些特定的词语。
1:00:54 K: That’s a mere matter of a cunning gift of putting words together. But what we are talking about...

S: A noble trade. Poetry is a great contribution.

K: Ah, that’s a minor thing. No, sir, that’s a minor thing; the major thing is to see the beauty of life and see the immensity of it, and to love. 		克：这只是一些遣词造句的狡猾的天赋。 但是我们讨论的……

史：是一个高尚的行业。 诗歌是一项伟大的贡献。

克：哦，这只是一件小事。 先生，这只是一件小事，真正重要的是， 看到生命的美， 看到其中的无限，还有去爱。
1:01:21 S: There it ended, a conversation with Krishnamurti. But what ended was only the words, not the substance. For Krishnamurti was speaking, as always, of that life that has no end, and no beginning. 史：和克里希那穆提的对话就这样结束了。 但是结束的只是词语，而非实质。 毕竟克里希那穆提，总是 对那些没有结束和开始的生命而讲。