BR7879CBS3 - 有自由意志存在吗？ home
与佛教学者的第三次讨论
英国，布洛克伍德公园
1978年6月23日

纯文本版本

0:17 Giddu Narayan: I am suggesting that Dr Rahula puts all the questions that he has noted down, so that in the course of the discussion we can cover most of the ground. And I have also got one or two things to say. I would like also to put it so that the discussion can centre round the questions. 0:17 吉度·纳拉扬：我建议 拉胡拉博士把他记下的 所有问题都提出来， 这样我们在讨论过程中 就可以涵盖大部分内容。 我也有 一两件事要说。 我也想这样说， 以便讨论能够 围绕问题进行。 沃尔波拉·拉胡
0:45 Walpola Rahula: Why not put your question first? 0:45 拉： 你何不先提出你的问题呢？
0:48 GN: My question is, in the Mahayana philosophy... 0:48 纳：我的问题是， 在大乘哲学中
0:54 Krishnamurti: Could you explain what Mahayana is in the Buddhist philosophy? 0:54 克里希那穆提：你能解释一下 佛教哲学中的大乘是什么吗？
0:59 GN: As coming from Nagarjuna, probably the greatest thinker, second century: he talked a great deal about sunyata, void, and it has a very close association with insight. And I believe the whole of later Buddhist thought owes its strength to this Nagarjuna’s idea of sunyata as being something which is pure, pristine. And there is no insight without sunyata. I will put it that way. And then he also said that without understanding the outer there is no possibility of going to the inner. Then he also made a statement which seems to be fallacious: samsara is nirvana, and nirvana is samsara. 0:59 纳：这个来自龙树， 他可能是 二世纪最伟大的思想家： 他谈论了很多 空无的话题， 空无与内观有着 非常密切的联系。 我认为整个 后来的佛教思想的 力量都归功于 龙树的这个空无观念， 认为空无是纯粹而原始的东西。 没有空无就没有洞察力。 我会这样说。 然后他还说，如果 不了解外在， 就不可能了解内在。 然后他又说了一句 看似谬误的话： Samsara就是nirvana， nirvana就是Samsara。 大卫·
2:06 David Bohm: What nirvana and samsara? 2:06 博姆： 什么是nirvana和Samsara？
2:09 K: Sir, you are using Sanskrit words, perhaps some of us may understand, but you have to explain it very carefully. 2:09 克：先生，您用的是梵文， 也许我们有些人能听懂， 但是你必须 非常仔细地解释一下。
2:15 GN: Samsara is worldly life with all its travail, suffering and dukkha, with all its sorrow – samsara. Nirvana is a state of freedom, bliss, liberation. He said samsara is nirvana, and nirvana is samsara. And this is explained by the Buddhist scholars through Pratitysamutpada, the whole thing is interrelated, conditioned origination. So this has a very powerful influence over the Buddhist thought today, as I understand it. And I would like this to be examined in the context of what we have been talking about. 2:15 纳：Samsara是世俗生活，充满了 劳苦、痛苦、苦和悲伤 ——轮回。 nirvana（涅槃）是一种自由、 极乐、解脱的状态。 他说轮回就是涅槃， 涅槃就是轮回。 佛教学者用般若 （Pratitysamutpada） 解释了这一点， 整个事物是相互关联、 因缘而生的。 因此，据我所知，这对当今 佛教思想有着非常大的影响。 我希望以我们的 讨论内容为背景， 对此进行一番探究。
3:02 K: I haven’t understood the statement. 3:02 克：我没理解这句话。
3:05 GN: The first thing is the importance of sunyata. 3:05 纳：首先是sunyata的重要性。
3:13 K: What do you mean by that word ‘sunyata’? 3:13 克：“sunyata”这个词是什么意思？
3:17 WR: From the Buddhist point of view I will explain. Sunyata literally means voidness, void, emptiness. 3:17 拉：我从佛教的角度来 解释一下。 Sunyata字面意思是 空、无。
3:30 K: Nothingness. Sunyata. I know the meaning. 3:30 克：虚无。Sunyata。 我知道有这个意思。
3:33 WR: That is the literal meaning. But the significance is that it is attributed by western Buddhist scholars mostly to Nagarjuna. That is incorrect. It is the Buddha who said this first, and Nagarjuna as a great thinker, philosopher, developed it into a system. Whereas Buddha said it in a very simple way. And Ananda who was Buddha’s nearest associate, companion, disciple, asked one day, ‘Sir, it is said the world is sunya, empty, what does it mean, to what extent is it sunya?’ He said, ‘Ananda, it is without self’ – he used the word ‘atta’, ‘atman’ – ‘without self and anything pertaining to self, therefore it is sunya’. 4:35 It is very clearly explained. In many other places he told a man, ‘See the world as sunya and you are liberated’. And these are the original statements. Nagarjuna took these ideas and developed them by his Madhyamkiarika based on Pratityasamutpada that is dependent origination, I would rather call it conditioned genesis, and on that philosophy that is everything is interdependent, relative, nothing is absolute, everything is cause and effect, and cause cannot be separated from the result, except if it can dissipate, it’s a continuity. 5:22 That is time also. And on this philosophy Nagarjuna developed very highly as a system, this teaching of sunyata as void, empty. And that is exactly what Krishnaji says also. There is no self, and you see it and every problem is solved. There is no complication, there is no problem. That is how I see it in relation to his explanation. Then the second thing you said – what was the second question? 3:33 拉：这就是字面意思。 但重要的是， 西方佛教学者 大都归之于龙树。 这是不正确的。 这是佛陀首先提出来的， 而龙树作为一位伟大的 思想家、哲学家， 将其发展为一个体系。 佛陀说这句话说得非常简单。 阿难陀是佛陀最亲近的 伙伴、弟子， 有一天他问道：“世尊， 据说世界是空无的， 这是什么意思？ 空无到什么程度？” 佛陀说，“阿难，那就是无我” ——他用了“atta（自我）”、 “atman（自我）”—— “没有自我， 没有任何与自我有关的东西， 因此世界是空无”。 4:35 解释得非常清楚。 在其他许多地方， 他告诉人： “当你看到世界是空无的时候， 你就解脱了”。 这些是原话。 龙树承袭了这些思想， 并用中观论发扬光大， 其基础是缘起法(揭示因果关联)， 我宁愿称其为conditioned genesis （缘起法的同义词）， 根据这套哲学理论， 一切都是 相互依存的、相对的、 没有什么是绝对的、 一切都是因和果。 因果是分不开的， 除非它消散了， 否则它就是连续的。 5:22 那也是时间。 在这套哲学基础上， 龙树极大地发扬了 空无的教诲体系。 这也正是克里希那吉所说的。 没有了自我，你看到这点后， 一切问题就都迎刃而解。 问题不会变得更加复杂， 因为没有问题。 这就是我 对他的解释的理解。 那么你说的第二件事 ——第二个问题是什么？
6:01 GN: The relationship between the outer and the inner. 6:01 纳：内外的关系。
6:06 WR: That is exactly what Krishnaji and Dr Bohm discussed as ‘Actuality and Truth’ or ‘Reality and Truth’, and it is published in that new book, that is Samrhitisatya and Paramarthasatya, these are also accepted Buddhist philosophical propositions. Samrhitisatya is conventional, that is what we do, talk and eat and all these things, within duality, within relativity. You can’t say this is false, this table. But in another sense this is not so. But Samrhitisatya is that conventional truth. Paramarthasatya is the ultimate, absolute truth. These two also cannot be separated. 6:06 拉：这正是 克里希那吉和博姆博士 讨论的“现实与真相”， 这部分内容 在那本新出版的书里， 即世俗谛和胜义谛， 这些也是公认的 佛教哲学命题。 世俗谛讲的是通常的情况， 也就是我们所做的事： 讲话、吃饭，等等， 都属于二元的、相对的范畴。 你不能说 这张桌子是假的。 但从另一种意义上来说， 情况并非如此。 但世俗谛讲的是 这个通常意义上的真理。 胜义谛是终极的、 绝对的真理。 这两者也是分不开的。
7:01 GN: That’s right. 7:01 纳：没错。
7:03 WR: Now Nagarjuna clearly says in one place, in Madhyamika Karika, one who cannot see and does not see the conventional truth is incapable of arriving at the ultimate truth. The third question you raised was, I think, nirvana and samsara. That is also, Nagarjuna says – clearly, I remember the words even by heart. He says that nirvana has no difference whatsoever from samsara and samsara has no difference whatsoever from nirvana. To clarify the word ‘samsara’, in the strict definition samsara is the continuity of our existence. And I remember once I put this question to Krishnaji in Paris, personally, there was nobody except him and myself. 7:03 拉：现在，龙树在中观论里 明确指出， 如果看不到， 如果看不到世俗真理， 就无法达到 终极真理。 我认为你提出的 第三个问题是涅槃和轮回。 龙树说，这也是 ——显然，这些话 我甚至都记住了。 他说涅槃与轮回 没有任何区别， 轮回与涅槃没有任何区别。 为了澄清“轮回”这个词， 在严格的定义中，轮回 是我们存在的连续性。 我记得我有一次在巴黎 亲自问克里希那吉这个问题， 只有他和我，没有旁人。
8:08 K: Two wise people! 8:08 克：两智者！
8:12 WR: I don’t know. But I put it to Krishnaji, there is a great Nagarjuna statement like this, it is very interesting to say it today, I asked him what he thought. Then to my surprise he said, ‘Who is Nagarjuna?’ I said, ‘That is your compatriot’, because he was from Andhra, supposed to be from Andhra. 8:12 拉：我不知道。 但我告诉克里希那吉， 有一位叫龙树的圣人 说过这样的话， 今天说起这个来很有趣， 我问他有什么想法。 然后令我惊讶的是，他说： “龙树是谁？ ” 我说：“他是你的同胞”， 因为他来自安得拉邦， 应该来自安得拉邦。
8:37 K: Oh! 8:37 克：哦！
8:41 WR: And then I explained to him who Nagarjuna was historically as a thinker and a philosopher. I said in Buddhist history he is perhaps the boldest thinker. Then he asked me, what were his attainments. I said we can’t say, that we don’t know, only we know his writings, through writings about him, but about his attainments, spiritual realisation we can’t say anything. Then Krishnaji paused for a minute and asked me, ‘What did Buddha say about all this?’ I said nothing. ‘That is correct’, then you said with the finger, this I remember very well, at Suarès, whose house? 8:41 拉：然后我向他解释， 龙树在历史上是 一位思想家、哲学家。 我说他也许是佛教史上 最大胆的思想家。 然后他问我， 他有什么成就。 我认为我们说不上来，我们不知道， 我们只知道他有那些著作， 只能借助那些著作来了解他， 至于他有何成就，有何灵性认识， 我们说不出什么来。 然后克里希那吉 停顿了一会儿， 问我：“对于这些，佛陀怎么说？ ” 我什么也没说。 “这是对的”， 然后你伸出食指说， 这我记得很清楚， 在苏亚雷斯还是谁的房子？
9:28 K: Suarès. 9:28 克：苏亚雷斯。
9:30 WR: ‘That is right’. Because I was always doubtful and I did not accept Nagarjuna’s statement so clearly, definitely saying nirvana and sunyama were the same. 9:30 拉：“这是对的”。 因为我一直很怀疑， 没有那么明确地接受 龙树的涅槃和轮回 是一回事的说法。
9:44 K: I am not quite sure that we understand, all of us. 9:44 克：我不太确定 我们所有人都明白了。
9:48 WR: Yes, will you explain this position, sir? 9:48 拉：是的，您能解释一下 这个观点吗，先生？
9:50 K: No, may I ask this, to explain a little more? What does samskara mean actually? 9:50 克：不，我可以请您再 解释一下这个吗？ Samskara实际上意味着什么？
9:56 WR: Samsara. 9:56 拉：Samsara。
9:58 K: Samskara in Sanskrit. 9:58 克：梵文里的Samskara。
10:00 WR: Samsara, Sanskrit, Pali, both – Samsara. Samskara is another thing. 10:00 拉：Samsara，梵文，巴利文， 都是Samsara。 Samskara（业）则是另一回事。
10:07 GN: Samskara is a different word. 10:07 纳：Samskara 是另一个词。
10:15 WR: Samsara literally means wandering, going off, going round. 10:15 拉：Samsara字面意思是 徘徊、离开、循环。
10:21 K: And Samskara means? 10:21 克：Samskara 的意思是？
10:23 WR: Samskara means construction, that is all our thinking. 10:23 拉：Samskara 意味着形成， 也就是我们的全部想法。
10:28 K: The past. 10:28 克：过去。
10:30 WR: It belongs to the past. 10:30 拉：属于过去。
10:31 K: That’s right. 10:31 克：是的。
10:32 WR: It belongs to the past. 10:32 拉：属于过去。
10:33 K: Yes, I understood that. 10:33 克：是的，我明白这一点。
10:35 WR: Yes, that belongs to the past. All our samskaras are work of the memory, knowledge, learning and all that. 10:35 拉：是的，那属于过去。 我们所有的业 都是记忆、 知识、学习等等的产物。
10:43 K: Like an old man going back and living in the past. That’s it. 10:43 克：就像一个老人 回到过去并生活在过去。 就是这样。
10:48 WR: But samsara is continuity. 10:48 拉：但轮回是连续的。
10:51 K: Continuity, I understand. 10:51 克：连续，我明白。
10:53 WR: Nirvana, we can’t define. 10:53 拉：涅槃，我们无法定义。
10:56 K: No, whatever it is. 10:56 克：不能，不管那是什么。
10:59 WR: Whatever it is, it is never defined in positive terms by the Buddha. Always whenever he was asked, he said, no, that is not nirvana. 10:59 拉：无论那是什么， 佛陀从未给出过肯定的定义。 每次有人问他， 他总说，那不是涅槃。
11:09 K: Quite, so you have asked your questions? 11:09 克：是的， 那么你问过你的问题了吗？
11:11 GN: Yes, I’ve asked. 11:11 纳：是的，我问过了。
11:12 K: Now, sir, you better ask your questions too in relation to what he has said. 11:12 克：现在，先生，你最好也 针对他讲的提出你的问题。
11:21 WR: The question is not from him, from you. My question I am asking from you. 11:21 拉：这个问题不是从他那里， 而是从你那里来的。 我的问题是问您的。
11:27 K: What? 11:27 克：什么？
11:28 WR: There are many questions, but as we have not much time. 11:28 拉：问题很多， 但我们时间不多。
11:32 K: We have got plenty of time, sir. 11:32 克：我们时间很充裕，先生。
11:34 WR: One question is – both I will say at once, so you can take them – one question is, that in western philosophy, western thought, free will has played a very important part. 11:34 拉：一个问题是 ——我两个一起说， 以便您明白—— 一个问题是， 在西方哲学、西方思想中， 自由意志发挥了 非常重要的作用。
11:52 K: Free will. 11:52 克：自由意志。
11:53 WR: Free will – absolute free will. 11:53 拉：自由意志——绝对的自由意志。
11:54 K: Free will. 11:54 克：自由意志。
11:56 WR: Yes, free will. According to the same philosophy that Mr Narayan said, conditional relations, that is cause and effect, according to that philosophy, Buddhism, such a thing is impossible because all our thinking, all our construction, all our work, all our knowledge is conditioned. 11:56 拉：是的，自由意志。 而根据纳拉扬先生 所说的同一哲学， 条件关系， 即佛教哲学所讲的 因果关系， 这种事是不可能的， 因为我们所有思想， 我们所有构建，我们所有工作， 我们所有知识都是有条件的。
12:21 K: Yes. 12:21 克：是的。
12:22 WR: Therefore if there is a free will, it is free only in a relative sense and it is not absolute freedom. That is the Buddhist position. That is one question I put. 12:22 拉：因此， 即使有自由意志， 那也不过是相对意义上的自由， 而不是绝对自由。 这就是佛教的观点。 这是我提出的一个问题。
12:39 K: Let’s talk it over, sir. What is will? What is will? How do you explain what will is? 12:39 克：先生，我们来谈谈吧。 什么是意志？ 什么是意志？ 你如何解释意志是什么？
12:55 WR: Will is that you decide, you want. 12:55 拉：意志是你决定的事情， 想要的东西。
13:02 K: No, what is the origin, the beginning of will? I will do this, I won’t do that. Now, what is the meaning of will? 13:02 克：不，意志的起源、 开端是什么？ 我想这样做， 我不想那样做。 那么，意志的含意是什么？
13:33 WR: The meaning of will is to want to do. 13:33 拉：意志的含意是想做。
13:36 K: No, no. All right, let me go on then. Is it not desire? 13:36 克：不，不。 好吧，那我继续说下去。 意志不是欲望吗？
13:45 WR: It is a desire. 13:45 拉：是欲望。
13:47 K: Desire accentuated, heightened, strengthened, which we call will. 13:47 克：受到突出、强化的欲望， 我们称之为意志。
13:55 DB: It seems to me that we make it determined. We determine the object of desire. We say, ‘I am determined’. 13:55 博：在我看来， 是我们做出了决定。 我们决定了欲望的对象。 我们说，“我决定了”。
14:02 K: In that there is determination. 14:02 克：这里面有决定。
14:04 DB: It gets fixed there. 14:04 博：欲望固定在那个地方。
14:05 K: I desire that, and to achieve that I make an effort. That effort, the motive of that effort is desire. So will is desire. Right? 14:05 克：我渴望得到这个， 而为了得到这个， 我去努力。 那个努力， 那个努力的动机就是欲望。 所以意志就是欲望。 对吗？
14:24 WR: It is a form of desire. 14:24 拉：这是欲望的一种形式。
14:28 K: It is a form of desire. Now, can desire ever be free? 14:28 克：这是欲望的一种形式。 那么，欲望还能自由吗？
14:33 WR: Absolutely. That is what I wanted to hear from you. No, you don’t like to say that but I want to say it. 14:33 拉：确实。 我就是想听听您对此的看法。 不，你不喜欢这么说， 但我还是想这么说。
14:50 K: Desire can never be free. It can change the objects of desire: I can desire one year to go to buy this, the next year that, change, but desire is constant, the objects vary. And the strengthening of desire: I will do that, the will is in operation. Will is desire. Now can desire ever be free? 14:50 克：欲望永远无法自由。 欲望可以改变对象： 头一年我可以渴望 去买这个， 明年买那个，改变， 而欲望不变， 变化的是对象。 而欲望的强化： 我会那么做， 是意志在运转。 意志就是欲望。 那欲望还能自由吗？
15:27 WR: No. 15:27 拉：不能。
15:29 K: But we say free will exists because I can choose between this and that, between this job and that job, I can go – except in totalitarian states – I can go from England to France freely. So the idea of free will is cultivated with a sense that human beings are free to choose. What does that mean – to choose? I can choose between blue jeans and something else, between this car and that car, between that house and so on, but why should I choose at all? Apart from material things, apart from certain books and so on, why is there choice? I am a Catholic, I give up Catholicism and become a Zen Buddhist. And if I am a Zen, I become something else, and I choose. Why? 16:58 Why is there choice at all, which gives one the impression that I am free to choose? Right, sir? So I am asking why is there the necessity of choice at all? If I am a Catholic, and saw the whole significance of Catholicism, with its abstractions, with its rituals, dogmas, you know, the whole circus in it, and I abandon that, why should I join something else? Because when I have investigated this I have investigated all the religions. I wonder... So choice must exist only when the mind is confused. No? When it is clear, there is no choice. Is that right? 15:29 克：但我们说有自由意志， 因为我可以 在这个、那个当中挑选， 可以选择做这个还是那个工作， 我可以 ——极权主义国家除外—— 我可以从英国去法国， 不受限制。 因此，人类培养起 自由意志观念， 是因为人类感觉可以 自由选择。 那是什么意思呢 ——选择？ 我可以在 蓝牛仔裤和其他东西之间、 在这辆车和那辆车之间、 那栋房子等等之间进行选择， 但我为什么要选择呢？ 除了物质之外， 除了某些书籍等等， 为什么要选择呢？ 我是天主教徒， 我放弃天主教 做起了禅宗佛教徒。 我信禅宗， 我又入了别的门派， 我在选择。 为什么？ 16:58 我为什么会选择， 并给人一种 我可以自由选择的印象？ 对吧，先生？ 所以我问，为什么 我们认为选择很必要？ 如果我是天主教徒， 并看到了 天主教的全部含意， 看到了天主教那些抽象符号， 那些仪式、教条， 你知道，那里面的所有马戏表演， 于是我放弃了天主教， 我为什么要加入别的信仰呢？ 因为我研究了这个， 我就研究了所有的宗教。 我想知道 所以只有当头脑混乱时， 才必须选择。 不是吗？ 头脑清楚，就没有选择了。 是这样吗？
18:21 WR: Right, I think you have answered the question, to me you have answered the question. 18:21 拉：是的，我认为你已经 回答完这个问题了， 对我来说你已经 回答了这个问题。
18:26 K: I haven’t fully answered it. 18:26 克：我还没充分回答。
18:28 DB: I think that the western philosophers might not agree with them, I am not sure. 18:28 博：我认为 西方哲学家 可能会不同意他们的观点， 我不确定。
18:32 K: They won’t agree, of course. 18:32 克：他们当然不会同意。
18:33 DB: They say that choice is not desire, that will is not desire but will is something else. I think that is my impression. 18:33 博：他们认为选择 不是欲望， 意志也不是欲望， 但意志是别的东西。 我想我的印象是这样的。
18:39 K: Yes, will is something else. 18:39 克：是的，意志是别的东西。
18:41 DB: Will is a free act, a sane act. 18:41 博：意志是自由行为，理智行为。
18:45 K: The will is something inherited or it is part of the genetic process, to will, to be. 18:45 克：意志是遗传， 或者说，想要怎样、成为什么， 是遗传过程的一部分。
18:56 DB: But I think, for example, I can’t say I know much about it, but Catholic philosophers may say when Adam sinned he willed wrongly, let’s say, he made a wrong choice, and he set us off on this way. 18:56 博：但我认为，比如， 我不能说我对此了解很多， 但天主教哲学家可能会说， 亚当犯罪时，他的意志出错了， 比方说， 他做了错误的选择， 并让我们走上了这条路。
19:12 K: You see, that is a very convenient way of explaining away everything. 19:12 克：你看，这种说法很方便地 解释了一切。
19:17 DB: I understand that. 19:17 博：我理解这点。
19:19 K: First invent Adam and Eve, the serpent, the apple, and god, then put everything as the primal crime. 19:19 克：首先虚构出亚当、夏娃、 蛇、苹果和上帝， 然后把一切都当作原罪。
19:30 WR: Yes, a lot of creation in that, mental creation. 19:30 拉：是的，其中有很多创造， 思想创造。
19:36 DB: I think if one observes, one can see that will is the result of desire. But I think people have the impression that will is something entirely different. 19:36 博：我认为只要观察一下， 就可以发现 意志是欲望的产物。 但我认为人们有这种印象， 认为意志是完全不同的东西。
19:44 K: Yes, will is part of something sacred. 19:44 克：是的， 意志是神圣事物的一部分。
19:51 DB: That’s what many people think. 19:51 博：这是很多人的想法。
19:52 K: Something derived from a divine being. 19:52 克：源自神圣存在的东西。
20:02 WR: According to the western philosophy. 20:02 拉：按照西方哲学。
20:04 K: More or less. I don’t know very much of western philosophy but from people with whom I have talked, and they may not be sufficiently informed, but they have given me the impression that will is something not quite human, not quite desire, not quite something that you cultivate. It is born out of the original sin, original god, and so on, so on. But if one puts all that aside, which is theoretical, problematical and rather superstitious, if you put all that aside, then what is will and what is choice, and what is action without choice and will? You follow? That is the problem. Is there any action which is not compounded with will? You understand? I don’t know what the Buddha... 20:04 克：差不多是这样。 我对西方哲学了解不多， 只是与人交谈， 了解到一些， 他们了解可能也不全面， 但他们给我的印象是， 意志不完全是人的本性， 不完全是欲望， 不完全是培养出来的。 意志产生于原罪、 原神等等、等等。 但如果把这些都抛在一边， 这些都是理论， 都有问题，其实是迷信， 如果把抛开这一切， 那么什么是意志， 什么是选择， 什么是没有选择 和意志的行动？ 你明白吗？ 那就是问题所在。 有没有什么行动， 没有意志掺和其中呢？ 你明白？ 我不知道佛陀怎么
21:35 GN: Would you say that insight is not the result of will, has nothing to do with will? 21:35 纳：您的意思是， 洞见不是意志的产物， 与意志没有任何关系吗？
21:43 K: Oh, nothing whatever to do with will, or desire, or memory. 21:43 克：哦，与意志、欲望 或记忆毫不相干。
21:50 GN: So insight is something which is free from will, and also analysis. 21:50 纳：所以洞见是没有意志， 也没有分析的事情。
21:58 WR: Yes. Insight is seeing. And in that seeing there is no choice, there is no discrimination, there is no judgement, there are no moral or immoral values, value judgements. You see. 21:58 沃：是的。 洞见就是看见。 在这种情况下，没有选择， 没有区分，没有评判， 没有道德或不道德， 没有价值观、价值判断。 你看。
22:17 GN: So insight is not the result of will, nor is it the result of analysis. 22:17 纳：所以洞见不是 意志的结果， 也不是分析的结果。
22:23 K: No. 22:23 克：不是。
22:24 WR: No. 22:24 拉：不是。
22:25 K: You see, this is becoming theoretical. You are making it so theoretical. 22:25 克：你看， 我们开始谈理论了。 你们把它弄成理论了。
22:31 GN: Because through analysis... 22:31 纳：因为借助分析……
22:32 K: Excuse me, sir. You are making it theoretical, you have defined it, it is not this, it is not that, it’s not that, and you think you have insight. Have you? 22:32 克：对不起，先生。 你把问题弄成了理论， 你下了定义， 它不是这个， 不是那个，不是那个， 你认为你洞见到什么了。 是吗？
22:43 GN: No, I don’t think I have insight. 22:43 纳：不，我觉得我没洞见到。
22:44 K: Then why do you discuss it? 22:44 克：那你为什么讨论这个？
22:46 GN: No, because we have been discussing insight so far, or we have been seeing. 22:46 纳：不，因为到目前为止 我们一直在讨论 或者一直在看洞见。
22:52 K: Now, Narayan, if I may point out, we are talking over together action in which there is no choice, in which there is no effort as will. Is there such action? I don’t know, sir, please. 22:52 克：现在，纳拉扬， 如果可以指出的话， 我们正在一起讨论 没有选择、 没有意志努力的行动。 有这样的行动吗？ 我不知道，先生，拜托。
23:21 WR: There is such an action. 23:21 拉：有这种行动。
23:25 K: You know it? Or is it a theory? Forgive me, I must be clear. Forgive me, sir, I want to move away, if you will forgive me, and I am not being impudent, one should move away from theories, from ideas, from conclusions. But find out for oneself the truth of that matter: which is, is there an action in which there is no effort of will at all and therefore no choice? So what is correct action in which there is no will, no choice, no desire – because will is part of desire and so on? 24:27 To find that out one must be very clear – mustn’t one? – of the nature of desire. And desire is part of sensation, and desire being part of sensation, and thought identifies itself with that sensation, and through identification the ‘I’ is built up, the ego, and the ego then says, ‘I must’, or ‘I will not’. So we are trying to find out if there is an action not based on the principle of ideals, on desire, on will, not spontaneous – that word is rather a dangerous word because nobody is spontaneous, one thinks one can be spontaneous, but there is no such thing because one must be totally free to be spontaneous. 25:52 Do you follow? So is there such action? Because most of our action has a motive. Right? And motive means movement, I want to build a house, I want that woman or that man, I am hurt psychologically or biologically, and my motive is to hurt back – so there is always some kind of motive in action, which we do in daily life. So then action is conditioned by the motive. The motive is part of the identification process. So if I understand – not ‘understand’ – if there is a perception of the truth that identification builds the whole nature and the structure of the self, then is there an action which doesn’t spring from thought? 27:26 I don’t know, am I right, sir? 23:25 克：你知道？ 或者那是个理论？ 请原谅我，我必须说清楚。 请原谅我，先生， 我想离开， 如果你能原谅我的话， 我不是无礼的， 我们应该 离开理论、想法、结论。 而亲自去弄清事情的真相： 是否有一种行动 完全没有意志努力， 因此也没有选择？ 那么，什么是正确的行动， 这种行动没有意志、 没有选择、没有欲望 ——因为意志是 欲望的一部分等等？ 24:27 要弄清这一点， 就必须非常清楚 ——不是吗？ —— 欲望的本质。 欲望是感觉的一部分， 欲望是感觉的一部分， 思想认同了那个感觉， 凭借着认同， “我”建立了起来，自我， 然后自我说，“我必须如何”， 或“我不会如何”。 所以我们想要弄清 是否有这样一种行动， 不是基于理想的原则， 不是基于欲望、意志， 不是指自发的行动—— 这是个相当危险的词， 因为没有人的行动是自发的， 你以为自己是自发的， 但是并不存在这种事， 因为你必须完全自由， 你的行动才能是自发的。 25:52 你明白吗？ 那么有这样的行动吗？ 因为我们大部分行为 都是有动机的。 对吗？ 动机意味着运动， 我想要盖一座房子， 我想要那个女人或那个男人， 我在心理上 或身体上受到伤害， 我的动机是报复 ——所以，我们 日常生活中的行动 总有某种动机。 因此，行动是由动机决定的。 动机是认同过程的一部分。 因此，如果我理解 ——不是“理解”—— 如果认识这个真相， 即认同构建了 自我的整个本质和结构， 那么是否有一种 并非源于思想的行动呢？ 27:26 我不知道，我说得对吗，先生？
27:28 DB: Yes, could we ask why – before we go into that – why there is identification, why is it that this is so prevalent? 27:28 博：是的，在我们讨论这个之前， 我们能否先问一下 为什么会有认同， 为什么这种现象如此普遍？
27:34 K: Why does thought identify? 27:34 克：为什么思想会认同？
27:38 DB: With sensation and other things. 27:38 博：认同感觉和其他东西。
27:42 K: Why is there identification with something? 27:42 克：我们为什么会认同某些东西？
27:46 DB: Specially sensation. 27:46 博：尤其是认同感觉。
27:51 K: Yes, sensation. Answer it, sirs. I don’t know. You are all experts. 27:51 克：是的，认同感觉。 回答一下，先生们。 我不知道。 你们都是专家。
28:02 GN: Is it the very nature of thought to identify or are there forms of thought which don’t identify with sensation? 28:02 纳：识别的本质是思想的本质吗？ 还是有一些思想形式 不与感觉相同？
28:19 K: Narayan, why do you – if I may again most politely and respectfully, etc., etc. – why do you put that question? Is it a theoretical question or an actual question? Why do you, Narayan, identify? 28:19 克：纳拉扬，你为什么 ——如果我可以再次以最礼貌 和尊重的方式表达，等等—— 你为什么提出这个问题？ 这是个理论问题， 还是个实际问题？ 纳拉扬，你为什么认同？
28:39 GN: Let me put it this way... 28:39 纳：我这样来说
28:42 K: No, I won’t put it differently. 28:42 克：不，我不会用不同的方式表达。
28:45 GN: The one thing I can identify with is sensation, I have nothing else to identify with. 28:45 纳：我能认同的一件事就是感觉， 我没有其他可以 认同的东西。
28:53 K: So why do you give importance to sensation? Do you say, I am a sensate being and nothing else? 28:53 克：那你为什么重视感觉呢？ 你认为，“我只是个有感觉的人， 别的什么都不是”，是吗？
29:05 GN: No, no. 29:05 纳：不，不。
29:08 K: Ah, that’s it. 29:08 克：啊，就是这样。
29:11 GN: If I have to identify with anything, it can only be with sensation. 29:11 纳：如果我必须认同什么， 那只能是感觉。
29:14 DB: Is there a duality in identification? 29:14 博：认同存在二元性吗？
29:17 K: Of course. 29:17 克：当然。
29:18 DB: Could we make it clear? 29:18 博：我们能把这个澄清一下吗？
29:20 K: In identification, as you point out, sir, there is duality, the identifier and the identified. 29:20 克：在认同中， 正如您所指出的，先生， 存在二元性： 认同者和被认同者。
29:27 DB: Is it possible that you are trying to overcome the duality by identifying, by saying, ‘I am not different’, when you are, or when you feel you aren’t. 29:27 博：有没有可能， 你是想克服二元性， 于是你认同感觉并说， “我和感觉没有不同”， 尽管你是分裂的， 或者你觉得自己没有分裂。
29:39 K: You see, I don’t want to enter into the field of ideologies, theories. To me, I have no interest in it. But I really, in investigating I want to find out, perhaps I have found out, but talking over together, is there an action in which the self is not? In daily life, not in nirvana, when I have reached freedom and all the rest of it, I want to do it in this life, as I live. Which means I have to find out, the mind has to find out an action which has no cause, which means no motive; an action which is not the result, or the effect, of a series of causes and effects. If that exists, action is always bound, chained. Am I making myself clear? 29:39 克：你看， 我不想跑到 意识形态和理论领域。 我对那个不感兴趣。 但我其实是想， 在探究中弄明白， 或许我已经明白了， 但是我们一起探讨一下， 有没有一种 不存在自我的行动？ 在日常生活中， 而不是在涅槃的时候， 在我获得自由的时候，等等， 我想在这辈子， 在我活着时弄明白。 这意味着我必须找到， 头脑必须找到一种 没有原因的行动， 这意味着没有动机； 这种行动 不是一系列因果关系的 结果或后果。 存在因果关系， 行动就总会受到束缚。 我说清楚了吗？
31:00 WR: Yes, go on. 31:00 拉：是的，请继续。
31:03 K: So is there such an action? 31:03 克：那么有这样的行动吗？
31:10 DB: Well, it seems to me we can’t find it as long as we are identifying. 31:10 博：嗯，在我看来，只要我们 在认同就找不到这种行动。
31:13 K: That’s right. That’s why I said as long as identification exists I can’t find the answer. 31:13 克：是的。 所以我说 只要认同存在， 我就找不到答案。
31:21 DB: But why does thought identify? 31:21 博：但是为什么思想会认同呢？
31:24 K: Why does thought identify with sensations? 31:24 克：为什么思想会认同感觉？
31:28 DB: Is that irresistible or is that just something you can put aside? 31:28 博：这是不可抗拒的，还是说， 你可以把它放在一边？
31:33 K: I don’t know if that is irresistible or if it is part of sensation. 31:33 克：我不知道 是不是不可抗拒的， 是不是感觉的一部分。
31:41 DB: How is that? 31:41 博：这是怎么回事？
31:43 K: Let’s investigate. I don’t like to... 31:43 克：我们来调查一下。 我不喜欢
31:45 DB: You think that sensation is behind that? 31:45 博：你认为 那个感觉是背后的原因吗？
31:48 K: Perhaps. When I say ‘perhaps’, that word is used for the purpose of investigation, not ‘I don’t know’, but let’s investigate. But it may be. So why have sensations become so important in life, sexual sensations, the sensation of power, whether occult power or political power, economic power, or power of a woman over a man or a man over a woman, power of environment, the influence of the environment, the pressures – why? Why has thought yielded to this pressure? Right, sir? 31:48 克：也许吧。 我说“也许”， 说这个词是为了调查， 不是“我不知道”，而是我们 来调查一下。 但也许是这样。 那么为什么感觉 在生活中变得如此重要， 性感觉，权力感觉， 无论是神秘的权力 还是政治权力、经济权力， 或者女人对男人的权力 或男人对女人的权力， 环境的力量， 环境影响、压力 ——为什么？ 为什么思想会屈服于 这种压力？ 对吧，先生？
32:41 DB: Does sensation necessarily produce a pressure? 32:41 博：感觉一定会 产生压力吗？
32:47 K: It does when it is identified. 32:47 克：感觉得到认同，就会。
32:49 DB: Yes, but then it is the two together. 32:49 博：是的，但是 那就是二者的共同作用了。
32:51 K: I know, but let’s examine a little further. What do we mean by sensation? 32:51 克：我知道， 不过，我们稍微深入探究一下。 我们所说的感觉是什么意思？
33:10 DB: Well, it seems to me that we may have a remembered sensation of pleasure. 33:10 博：嗯，在我看来， 我们可能有 一种记忆中的愉悦感。
33:16 K: Senses, the operation of the senses – touching, tasting, seeing, smelling, hearing. 33:16 克：感官， 感官的运作 ——摸、尝、看、嗅、听。
33:23 DB: The experience that happens then; and also the memory of it. 33:23 博：当时的经历； 及其记忆。
33:30 K: No, the memory is only when there is an identification with it. 33:30 克：不，只有有认同的时候， 才会有记忆。
33:37 DB: I agree, yes. 33:37 博：我同意，是的。
33:38 K: When there is no identification the senses are senses. But why does thought identify itself with senses? 33:38 克：没有认同， 则感官就是感官。 但为什么思想 将自己等同于感官呢？
33:52 DB: Yes, that is not yet clear. 33:52 博：是的，这个还不清楚。
33:54 K: I know, we are going to make it clear. 33:54 克：我知道， 我们这就来澄清一下。
33:58 DB: Are you saying that when the sensation is remembered, then we have identification? 33:58 博：你是说 我们记住感觉， 就有了认同感？
34:06 K: Yes. 34:06 克：是的。
34:09 DB: Can we make that more clear? 34:09 博：我们可以说得更清楚吗？
34:11 K: Let’s make it a little more clear. Let’s work at it. There is perceiving a pleasurable lake, seeing a beautiful lake, what takes place in that seeing? There is not only optical nerve, seeing by the eye, but also the senses are awakened, the smell of the water, the trees on the lake... 34:11 克：我们把这个再稍微澄清一下。 我们来探究一下。 看见一泓赏心悦目的湖水， 看到一潭美丽的湖， 在看的那个过程中发生了什么？ 不仅有视觉神经， 用眼睛看， 而且感官也被唤醒， 水的气味， 湖上的树木
34:59 DB: Could we stop a moment? When you say seeing, of course you see through the visual sense. 34:59 博：我们可以停一下吗？ 你说的看见， 当然是以视觉来看。
35:05 K: I am using pure visual sense. 35:05 克：我完全用的是视觉。
35:07 DB: Now, therefore you already have the visual sense awakened merely to see. Is that what you mean? 35:07 博：现在，因此你的 视觉感官已经被 唤醒，只是为了看。 你是这个意思吗？
35:13 K: Yes. I am just seeing. 35:13 克：是的。 我只是看见。
35:16 DB: Visually. 35:16 博：用视觉。
35:17 K: Visually, optically, I am just seeing, then what takes place? 35:17 克：用视觉，用眼睛， 我只是在看， 然后发生了什么？
35:22 DB: And the other senses start to operate. 35:22 博：其他感官也 开始运作。
35:24 K: And the other senses start operating. Why doesn’t it stop there? 35:24 克：其他感官也开始运作。 为什么不停在这儿？
35:30 DB: What is the next step? 35:30 博：下一步是什么？
35:31 K: The next step is thought comes in – how beautiful that is, I wish I could remain here. 35:31 克：下一步，思想就介入了 ——那真是太美了， 我要是能留在这儿该多好。
35:39 DB: So thought identifies it? 35:39 博：所以思想认同了这里？
35:40 K: Yes. 35:40 克：是的。
35:41 DB: It says, ‘It is this’. 35:41 博：思想说，“这是这样的”。
35:42 K: Yes, because in that there is pleasure. 35:42 克：是的， 因为那里有快乐。
35:46 DB: In what? 35:46 博：哪里？
35:48 K: Seeing and the delight of seeing, then thought coming into operation and saying ‘I must have more, I must build a house here, it is mine’. 35:48 克：看见和看见的喜悦， 然后思想开始运作并说， “我一定要得到更多，我必须 在这儿盖座房子，这是我的”。
35:57 DB: But why does thought do that? 35:57 博：但是为什么思想会这么做呢？
36:00 K: Why does thought interfere with senses – is that it? Now wait a minute, sir. The moment the senses take pleasure, say, ‘How delightful’ and stop there, thought doesn’t enter. 36:00 克：为什么思想会 干扰感官——是这个问题吗？ 现在等一下，先生。 在感官享受快乐， 说“多么愉快啊”的那一刻， 如果就停在那儿， 思想就不会进入。
36:27 K: Right? 36:27 克：是吗？
36:29 DB: That’s right. 36:29 博：没错。
36:31 K: Now why does thought enter? If it is painful, thought avoids it. 36:31 克：那么为什么思想会进来呢？ 如果是痛苦的事，思想就会回避。
36:42 DB: Right. 36:42 博：对。
36:45 K: It doesn’t identify itself with that. 36:45 克：思想不会认同那种事。
36:47 DB: It identifies against it, it says, ‘I don’t want it’. 36:47 博：思想识别并防止那种事， 思想说，“我不想要痛苦”。
36:50 K: No, leave it alone, go away from it, either deny it or move away from it. But if it is pleasurable, when the senses begin to enjoy, say, ‘How nice’, then thought begins to identify itself with it. 36:50 克：对，别理它，远离它， 要么否认它， 要么回避它。 而如果是令人愉快的事， 感官就开始享受， 并说，“多舒服啊”， 然后思想就开始认同这件事了。
37:10 DB: But why, I mean? 37:10 博：可是为什么会这样？
37:12 K: Why, because of pleasure. 37:12 克：为什么，因为快乐。
37:16 DB: But why doesn’t thought give it up when it sees how futile this is? 37:16 博：可是既然思想看到了这是 徒劳无益的，为什么还不放弃呢？
37:22 K: Oh, that’s much later. 37:22 克：哦，那是很久以后的事了。
37:23 DB: That’s a long way off. 37:23 博：那还远着呢。
37:24 K: When it becomes painful, when it is aware identification breeds both pleasure and fear, then it begins to question. 37:24 克：当思想感到痛苦时， 当它意识到认同既会带来 快乐，也会带来恐惧时， 它就开始提出质疑。
37:35 DB: Well, are you saying thought has made a simple mistake in the beginning, a kind of innocent mistake? 37:35 博：嗯，你是说思想 在开始时犯了一个简单的错误， 一种无辜的错误？
37:40 K: Yes, that’s right. Thought has made a mistake in identifying with something, that brings to it pleasure, or there is pleasure in something. 37:40 克：是的，没错。 思想错在认同了某件事， 或者这带给它快乐， 或者那件事包含着快乐。
37:53 DB: And thought tries to take over. 37:53 博：思想试图接管过来。
37:55 K: To take over. 37:55 克：接管过来。
37:56 DB: To make it permanent, perhaps. 37:56 博：也许是为了让快乐永久。
38:00 K: Permanent, right, which means memory. A remembrance of the lake with the daffodils, and the trees, and the water and sunlight, and all the rest of it. 38:00 克：永久，对，那就是记忆。 记住开满水仙花的湖边， 记住树木、 水面、阳光， 如此等等。
38:13 DB: I understand now thought has made a mistake and later it discovers this mistake, but it seems to be too late because it doesn’t know how to stop. 38:13 博：我现在明白 思想犯了一个错误， 后来它发现了这个错误， 但似乎为时已晚， 因为它不知道如何停止。
38:21 K: It is now conditioned. 38:21 克：思想现在定型了。
38:24 DB: So can we make it clear why it cannot give it up, you see. 38:24 博：那么我们能否明确说明 为什么它不能放弃它，你看。
38:27 K: Why it cannot give it up? That’s our whole problem. 38:27 克：为什么不能放弃呢？ 这是关键问题。
38:30 DB: Do we try to make it more clear? 38:30 博：我们是否尝试让事情变得更清楚？
38:33 K: Why doesn’t thought give up something which it knows or is aware that it is painful? 38:33 克：为什么思想不 放弃那个东西， 尽管它知道或意识到 那会带来痛苦？
38:40 DB: Yes. 38:40 博：是的。
38:42 K: It is destructive. Why? Go on, why, sir? Sir, let’s take a simple example: psychologically one is hurt. 38:42 克：带来破坏。 为什么？ 继续，为什么，先生？ 先生，举个简单的例子： 人受到心理伤害。
39:07 DB: Well, that is later. 39:07 博：哦，那是后来的事了。
39:08 K: I am taking that as an example, doesn’t matter later or... One is hurt. Why can’t one immediately give up that hurt, because knowing that hurt is going to create a great deal of damage? That is, when I am hurt I build a wall round myself not to be hurt more; there is fear, and isolation, neurotic actions – all that follows. Thought has created the image about myself, and that image gets hurt. Why doesn’t thought say, ‘Yes, by Jove, I have seen this’, drop it immediately? Right? It is the same question. 39:08 克：我就以此为例， 不管是后来还是 人受伤了。 为什么一个人不能 立即放弃这种伤害， 因为知道这种伤害会 造成很大的伤害？ 也就是说，当我受到伤害时， 我会在自己周围筑起一堵墙， 以免受到更多伤害； 随之而来的是恐惧、孤立、 神经质的行为。 思想塑造了我自己的形象， 而这个形象受到了伤害。 为什么思想不说： “是的，天哪，我看到这个了”， 并立即抛弃形象？ 对吗？ 这是同样的问题。
39:59 DB: Yes. 39:59 博：是的。
40:01 K: Because when it drops the image there is nothing left. 40:01 克：因为当它丢弃形象时， 就什么也没有剩下了。
40:06 DB: Then you have another ingredient because thought wants to hold on to the memory of the image. 40:06 博：那么你还有 另一个成分， 因为思想想要保留 形象的记忆。
40:12 K: Hold on to the memories which have created the image. 40:12 克：保留塑造出形象的那些记忆。
40:16 DB: And which may create it again, and thought feels they are very precious. 40:16 博：而记忆可能会再次塑造形象， 并且认为这些形象非常珍贵。
40:21 K: Yes, they are very precious, nostalgic and all the rest of it. 40:21 克：是的，非常珍贵、 令人怀念等等。
40:26 DB: So somehow it gives very high value to all that. How did it come to do that? 40:26 博：所以不知怎的， 思想认为这些东西非常有价值。 思想怎么会这么想呢？
40:34 K: Why has it made the image so valuable? 40:34 克：为什么思想把 形象看得如此有价值？
40:38 DB: Yeah. Why has the image become so important which thought has created? 40:38 博：是的。 为什么思想塑造的形象 变得如此重要？
40:47 DB: If I may say that in the beginning it was a simple mistake, and thought made an image of pleasure, and it seemed to become very important, precious, and was unable to give it up. 40:47 博：如果我可以说， 一开始这是一个简单的错误， 思想塑造了 一种快乐的形象， 形象似乎变得 非常重要、珍贵， 无法放弃。
41:02 K: Yes, why doesn’t it? Sir, if I give up pleasure, if thought gives up pleasure, what is there left? 41:02 克：是的，为什么思想不放弃呢？ 先生，如果我放弃快乐， 如果思想放弃快乐， 还剩下什么？
41:13 DB: It can’t seem to return to the state in the beginning when there was nothing. 41:13 博：它似乎无法回到最初 什么都没有的状态。
41:17 K: Ah, that is the pristine state. That is the thing. 41:17 克：啊，那是崭新的状态。 就是这样。
41:21 DB: It is unable to return to that state. 41:21 博：它无法 返回到那种状态。
41:22 K: It can’t because thought – you know, all the rest of it. 41:22 克：它回不去，因为思想 ——你知道，如此等等。
41:25 DB: Well, I think what happens is that when thought thinks of giving up pleasure, which has become very precious, then the mere thought of that is painful. 41:25 博：嗯，我认为情况是这样的， 思想想放弃快乐， 而快乐已经非常珍贵了， 所以，想到要放弃 就够痛苦的了。
41:36 K: Yes, the giving up is painful. 41:36 克：是的，放弃令人痛苦。
41:37 DB: And therefore thought runs away from that. 41:37 博：因此， 思想就逃避了。
41:40 K: Yes, so it clings to pleasure. 41:40 克：是的，所以它抓着快乐不放。
41:44 DB: It does not wish to face the pain. 41:44 博：它不想面对痛苦。
41:46 K: Till there is a better reward for pleasure, which will be a better pleasure. 41:46 克：直到它能得到更大的回报， 也就是更大的快乐。
41:50 DB: That’s no change, is it? 41:50 博：这不是改变，是吗？
41:52 K: Of course. 41:52 克：当然不是。
41:54 DB: But thought seems to have fallen into a trap which it has made, because it has innocently remembered pleasure, and then gradually made it important, and then it has become too painful to give it up. 41:54 博：但是思想 似乎陷入了它自己 制造的陷阱， 因为它天真地 记住了快乐， 然后渐渐地把快乐 看得非常重要， 然后因为那太痛苦了， 它放弃不了。
42:09 K: Give it up. 42:09 克：无法放弃。
42:10 DB: Because any change from the immediate removal of pleasure is very painful. 42:10 博：因为任何 立即消除快乐的改变 都是非常痛苦的。
42:14 K: Because it has nothing else than afterwards, then it is frightened. 42:14 克：因为过后它什么都没有， 所以它会害怕。
42:18 DB: But you see, in the beginning it was not frightened to have nothing else. 42:18 博：可是你看， 开始它一无所有， 但它并不害怕。
42:22 K: Yes. 42:22 克：是的。
42:23 DB: Now it is. 42:23 博：现在它害怕了。
42:24 K: Yes. In the beginning, that means the beginning being the beginning of man. 42:24 克：是的。 开始的时候， 这个开始意味着人类早期。
42:31 DB: Yes. 42:31 博：是的。
42:32 K: In the beginning of man – can we question even that? 42:32 克：在人类早期 ——我们还能质疑这一点吗？
42:37 DB: Perhaps not. 42:37 博：也许不能。
42:38 K: Beginning of the ape. 42:38 克：类人猿的早期。
42:41 DB: If you go far enough back. You want to say it has been going a long time, but thought has built this trap which has gradually got worse. 42:41 博：如果你回溯得足够远的话。 你想说 那已经持续了很长时间， 但思想已经制造了这个陷阱， 并且逐渐变得越来越糟。
42:53 K: Sir, could we say, as the brain is very old – all our brains are very old – merely tracing it back further and further, you can never find out. But I can say my brain is now as it is, which is very old, conditioned, in terms of pleasure and pain. 42:53 克：先生，我们可不可以说， 由于大脑非常古老 ——所有人大脑都非常古老—— 仅仅依靠不断往前追溯， 绝不会让你找到答案。 但我可以说 我的大脑现在就是这样， 它非常古老， 受到了快乐、痛苦原则的塑造。
43:23 DB: Yes. They say that the old brain is also the emotional part of the brain. 43:23 博：是的。 他们说， 这个古老的大脑 也是掌管情感的 那部分大脑。
43:27 K: Of course, emotional and all the rest of it, sensory. So where are we now? 43:27 克：当然，情感等等，感官。 那么我们现在到哪里了？
43:36 DB: Well, we say that this brain has conditioned itself by continual memory of the image of pleasure, the unpleasantness of giving it up and the fear. 43:36 博：我们说这个大脑 不断记住快乐的形象，还有 放弃快乐的不愉快感受 和恐惧，使自己思维固化了。
43:46 K: So it clings to something which it knows. 43:46 克：所以它会执着于 它知道的东西。
43:48 DB: Which it knows and which is very precious to it. 43:48 博：它知道的， 对它来说非常珍贵的东西。
43:51 K: But it doesn’t know that it is going to breed fear. 43:51 克：但它不知道 这会滋生恐惧。
43:55 DB: Even when it knows it still clings. 43:55 博：即使它知道 它也还是抓住不放。
43:56 K: But it would much rather run away from fear hoping the pleasure will continue. 43:56 克：它宁愿逃避恐惧， 期盼快乐能够持续下去。
44:01 DB: But I think eventually it starts to become irrational because it creates pressures which make the brain irrational and unable to get this straight. 44:01 博：但我认为最终 它会开始失去理智， 因为这会产生压力， 使大脑失去理智， 并且无法理清思路。
44:12 K: Yes. Where are we now at the end of this? We started off, sir, didn’t we, Dr Bohm, with – is there an action in which there is no motive, no cause, the self doesn’t enter into it at all? Of course there is. There is when the self is not, which means no identifying process takes place. There is the perceiving of a beautiful lake with all the colour and the glory and the beauty of it, and that’s enough. Not the cultivating of memory which is developed through the identification process. Right? 44:12 克：是的。 最后，我们现在到哪儿了？ 先生，我们一开始问的是不是， 博姆博士—— 有没有一种行动， 没有动机、没有原因、 根本没有自我参与？ 当然有。 自我不存在，就会有， 那意味着没有出现认同过程。 看到一潭美丽的湖水， 绚丽多彩，辉煌灿烂， 美轮美奂， 这就够了。 不要在认同 过程中发展培养记忆。 对吗？
45:25 DB: This always raises the question: how are we going to stop this identification? 45:25 博：这总会引出一个问题： 我们该如何阻止这种认同？
45:30 K: I don’t think there is a ‘how’. 45:30 克：我认为没有“如何”。
45:32 DB: Right, but then what do we do? 45:32 博：是的，但是那我们该怎么办呢？
45:34 K: Which means meditation, control, practice, practice, practice. And that way makes the mind mechanical, dull – forgive me – and literally incapable of receiving anything new. 45:34 克：这意味着冥想、控制、 练习、练习、练习。 这种方式会让大脑变得 机械、迟钝 ——请原谅我—— 并且实际上无法 接受任何新事物。
46:00 Irmgard Schloegl: If it imitates, if it just imitates it, this is precisely what happens. If these practices are done with imitation, imitation, imitation. 46:00 伊尔姆加德·施洛格：如果它模仿， 如果它只是模仿， 这正是会发生的事情。 如果这些做法都是 模仿、模仿、模仿的话。
46:14 WR: That means if that practice becomes an imitation... 46:14 拉：这意味着如果这种做法 变成了模仿
46:18 IS: Then this is a terrible condition. 46:18 IS：那么这是 一个可怕的情况。
46:20 WR:...then the mind is mechanical. 46:20 拉：……那么心灵就是机械的。
46:22 K: What do you mean ‘imitation’? 46:22 克：你说的“模仿”是什么意思？
46:25 IS: If you tell me – if I make it very simple – just three times a day put your hand on the floor and something will happen. 46:25 IS：如果你告诉我 ——如果我让它变得非常简单—— 每天只需三次， 把手按在地板上， 就会发生一些事情。
46:34 K: And I do it. 46:34 克：我就这么做了。
46:35 IS: And I do it, I do not think about it, I do not enquire about it, I do not say, ‘Why? Now, what happens, why should I? ’, if I do not question it, if I just mechanically do it, nothing will happen, I will get only more and more fuzzy. But if I enquire into it, why, what for, what is my reaction... 46:35 IS：我就这么做了， 我不去考虑这个， 我不问这是怎么回事， 我不说，“为什么？ 现在，发生了什么， 我为什么要这么做？ ”， 如果我不质疑它， 如果我只是机械地这样做， 什么都不会发生， 我只会变得 越来越模糊。 但如果我询问它，为什么， 为什么，我的反应是什么
46:56 K: My question is: I have listened to somebody who says, put your hand there, and then I begin to enquire, but I don’t accept anybody telling me that I must put my hand there, then I don’t have to enquire. Do you remember that famous story of a guru – he had a favourite cat, and he had many disciples. Every morning, before they all started meditation, he caught hold of the cat, put it on his lap, and meditated. And when he died, the disciples had to search around for a cat. 46:56 克：我的问题是： 我听过有人说， 把手放在那里， 然后我开始询问， 但我不接受任何 告诉我 必须把手放在那里的人， 然后我就不必询问。 你记不记得那个有名的故事， 讲的是一位古鲁 他非常喜欢一只猫， 他有很多弟子。 每天早上， 在他们开始冥想之前， 他都会把猫抱过来 放在腿上，开始冥想。 他死后，他那些弟子 不得不四处找只猫放腿上。
47:43 WR: I have heard it differently. The cat was tied up so he could not come and listen. 47:43 拉：我听过一个不同的版本。 他把猫绑了起来， 不让猫跑过来听。
47:48 K: Same thing. You see, our minds are mechanical anyhow, have been made mechanical. Can’t we investigate why we have become mechanical, rather than practise that which is non-mechanical, which may be mechanical. 47:48 克：说的是一回事。 你看， 无论如何我们的头脑 是机械的， 已经被弄得机械了。 我们可不可以调查一下 我们为什么变机械了， 而不是去练习 某种不机械的方法， 因为那可能也会机械起来。
48:27 IS: We can, since there have been people who have become whole before us... 48:27 IS：我们可以， 因为在我们之前已经有人 变成了完整的人
48:42 K: I don’t know. 48:42 克：我不知道。
48:44 IS: Or it seems. If I stand out of my quest. 48:44 施：或者看起来是。 如果我脱离了我的追求。
48:47 K: I don’t know anybody. 48:47 克：我不知道谁是完整的。
48:48 IS: It seems likely. 48:48 施：看上去可能是。
48:50 K: You see, you accept it. 48:50 克：你看，你接受了。
48:52 IS: I am looking at it as a possible proposition. 48:52 施：我将其视为 一个可以接受的提议。
48:56 K: I don’t know. I start with myself. I don’t look to somebody who is enlightened. I don’t know. They may deceive themselves. 48:56 克：我不知道。 我从我自己开始。 我不指望谁开悟了， 会来帮我。 我不知道。 他们可能是自欺欺人。
49:07 IS: This is why I am trying to find... 49:07 施：这就是为什么 我试图寻找
49:11 K: So one must start with oneself. Oneself is already second-hand, living in the shadow of others, so why look to others? So here I am. From there I begin. It’s so simple, whereas the other leads to so many complications. 49:11 克：所以你必须从自己开始。 自己已经是二手人了， 活在别人的影子里， 那为何还要指望别人呢？ 所以我就在这里。 我从这里开始。 非常简单， 而另一种做法则会 把问题搞得极其复杂。
49:38 IS: I do not necessarily see it as a complication. If I have an idea that there is something that is more than my illusion, my suffering, my general state of dissatisfaction in which I am and which I have to face, if I do not think that there is any possibility, then I might not even try. If I see that there might be a possibility, I do not need to take it for truth, but it gives me the sense that it is worthwhile trying to work with myself as my own subject of experiment, to work it out. 49:38 施：我不必把它看成是难题， 使问题复杂化了。 如果我有个想法， 感觉按照某种方法， 可以克服我的幻觉、 痛苦，摆脱我目前所处的和必须面对的 总体上不满意的状态， 我要是觉得那是不可能的， 我可能甚至不肯一试。 如果我看到那也许是可能的， 我不需要视之为真理， 但这让我感觉 值得尝试将自己 作为自己的实验对象， 并解决这个问题。
50:17 K: Why do you want a motive? 50:17 克：你为什么想要动机？
50:22 IS: I think it is almost impossible not to start with that motive, because that starts from self. 50:22 施：我认为要是没有这个动机， 我就几乎不可能开始， 因为那是从自我开始的。
50:28 K: No, madam, we are talking about the same thing, aren’t we? I just want to know myself, not because I suffer, I go through, you know, I just want to know what I am, not according to anybody, but just know about myself. So I begin to enquire, I begin to look in the mirror, which is myself. The mirror says, your reactions are these, and as long as you have these reactions, you are going to pay heavily, you are going to suffer. So that is all. So now how am I, an ordinary human being, knowing all my reactions, ugly, pleasant, hateful, all the reactions one has, to bring about an observation in which there is no motive to restrain or to expand reactions? I wonder if I am making myself clear. 50:28 克：不，女士， 我们在谈论同一件事， 不是吗？ 我只是想了解我自己， 不是因为我受苦， 我经受煎熬，你知道， 我只是想知道我是谁， 不是听哪个人说了什么， 而是只是了解我自己。 所以我开始询问， 我开始照镜子， 那是我自己。 镜子说， 你的反应就是这些， 只要你有这些反应， 你就会付出沉重的代价， 你就会受苦。 这就是全部。 那么，现在我， 一个普通人， ——既然我知道我有那些反应， 或者丑陋、或者愉快、或者 充满仇恨，等等各种反应—— 我怎样才能让观察发生， 而没有抑制或扩大 那些反应的动机呢？ 我想知道 我是否表达清楚了。
51:45 IS: Yes. 51:45 施：是的。
51:46 K: How am I to observe myself without a cause? The cause generally is punishment and reward. Which is obviously too absurd, like a dog being trained. So can I look at myself without any motive? Go on, sirs. 51:46 克：我如何才能 毫无原因地观察自己呢？ 一般来说，原因就是 惩罚和奖励。 显然这太荒唐了， 像训练狗一样。 那么我可以毫无动机地 看我自己吗？ 继续，先生们。
52:19 IS: At this stage of enquiry, where I am beginning to try to do it, to start with, I cannot do it, I am too conditioned. 52:19 施：在这个探究阶段， 我开始尝试去做， 开始着手，但我做不到， 我受影响太严重，不能突破限制。
52:32 K: No, I wouldn’t admit that. You are always asking for help. 52:32 克：不，我不会承认这个。 你总在寻求帮助。
52:39 IS: No, but I can in the same way as I can do a physical training, I can be able slowly, but not immediately, to look, to bear the proximity of those things that I do normally not like to see in myself. 52:39 施：不，但我可以 像进行体能训练一样， 我可以慢慢地 但不是立即地 观察、承受 那些 我通常 不喜欢在自己身上看到的东西的接近。
52:59 K: I understand that, madam. Which is like: I have no muscles to do certain exercises, in a week’s time I have those muscles by doing exercises. That same mentality is carried over, I don’t know myself, but I will gradually learn about myself. 52:59 克：我明白，女士。 就像：我没有肌肉 来做某些运动， 一周后我通过运动就有了这些 肌肉。 同样的心态 延续下来， 我不认识自己， 但我会逐渐 了解自己。
53:21 IS: I’s not that I need to gradually learn – we have to be very careful here – it is not that I need to gradually learn about myself, it is only that I have to develop the courage, the strength to bear myself. 53:21 施：我不是说我需要 逐渐学习 ——我们在这上 必须非常小心—— 我不是需要逐渐 了解自己， 只是我必须培养勇气、力量， 面对真实的自己。
53:37 K: It is the same thing, it is the same thing. I haven’t the strength, physical strength to do certain exercises: the same mental operation goes psychologically – I am weak, but I must get strong. 53:37 克：都是一样的， 都是一样的。 我没有力量， 没有体力做某些体育锻炼： 在心理上发生了 同样的心理活动 ——我很虚弱， 但我必须坚强起来。
53:54 IS: It is not that I must get strong. I think this is where one gets oneself into a... 53:54 施： 我不是必须坚强起来。 我认为人们就是 在这儿走进了
54:00 K: Cul-de-sac. 54:00 克：死胡同。
54:01 IS: Yes, it is not for the motive, it is the very real suffering and looking, and suffering and looking, suffering and looking, and there is a changing factor in it which in the end makes it possible. 54:01 施：是的， 这不是出于动机，而是 非常真实的 痛苦和寻找， 痛苦和寻找， 痛苦和寻找， 其中有一个变化的因素， 最终使之成为可能。
54:18 K: Which is again gradual, evolution. I say that is totally – if I may point out, I am not correcting you – that will lead nowhere, that is an illusion. 54:18 克：这还是渐进、进化。 我认为那完全 ——如果可以指出的话， 我不是在纠正你—— 不会有任何结果， 那是一种幻觉。
54:34 IS: It need not lead to anywhere, but if it is continued in that spirit, with that attitude, not I get something out of it, then there is a sudden change possible and it does occur. Whether we have done it, and I would like to make another point on that: whether we have done it starting with that motive and changed and began slowly the other way, or whether we have done it unbeknownst to ourselves, so that it can suddenly happen on the basis of the life that we have lived, does really not make any difference. 54:34 施：它不需要通向任何地方， 但如果以这种精神、这种态度继续下去， 我不会从中得到一些东西， 那么突然的变化是可能的， 而且它确实会发生。 我们是否已经做到了， 我想就此提出另一点： 我们是否是 从这个动机开始做的，然后 改变并慢慢地以 另一种方式开始， 或者我们是否在 自己不知情的情况下做了这件事， 这样它就可以突然发生。 发生 在我们所过的生活的基础上 ， 实际上没有任何区别。
55:11 K: Madam, either you have insight immediately, or you don’t have it. 55:11 克：女士，你要么立即 有洞见，要么没有。
55:15 IS: Yes, that is true but what led up to it, that is the point. 55:15 施：是的，确实如此， 可是什么能带来洞见呢， 这是关键。
55:19 K: Ah, there is no preparation, which means time, which means cultivating, identification, the ‘me’. 55:19 克：啊，无须做准备， 那意味着时间， 意味着培养、认同、“我”。
55:28 IS: No. 55:28 施：没有。
55:29 K: Of course. The moment you allow time it is the cultivation of the self. 55:29 克：当然。 你一让时间进来， 那就是发展自我。
55:35 IS: Not necessarily. 55:35 施：不一定。
55:38 K: Why do you say, not necessarily? 55:38 克：为什么说不一定呢？
55:43 IS: If I do it for something that I want to gain out of it, then it is certainly a cultivation of the self. 55:43 施：如果我这样做是为了 得到什么， 那当然是在发展自我。
55:54 K: Madam, when you say, as we said just now, insight is devoid of time and memory. Insight is timeless, it must happen. You can’t gradually come to it, it is not a thing cultivated by thought. So to have an insight into oneself instantly, not by degrees. Is that possible? 55:54 克：女士，当你说， 正如我们刚才所说， 洞见是没有 时间和记忆的。 洞见是没有时间的， 必须发生。 你不可能逐渐接近洞见， 它不是 思想培养出来的东西。 所以要一下子， 而不是逐步地洞察自己。 这可能吗？
56:29 IS: Yes. 56:29 施：是的。
56:30 K: No, don’t say, yes, we are enquiring. 56:30 克：不，不要说，是的， 我们正在询问。
56:32 IS: Then I would say with my own conviction and experience, I would say yes. 56:32 施：那么我会以我 自己的信念和经验说， 我会说，是的。
56:40 K: Say yes to what? 56:40 克：对什么说“是的”？
56:43 IS: It is possible. 56:43 施：那是可能的。
56:46 K: That means, if you have an insight, that insight wipes away the self, not momentarily, not momentarily. So would you say, action then is without motive? Do you know such action; not occasionally, but living an everyday life? I don’t want to be occasionally fed, but I want to be fed every day. I don’t want to be occasionally happy, I want to have – you know, all the rest of it. As insight is devoid of time and divorced from memory, thought, therefore is there an action born of insight? You understand? 56:46 克：这意味着， 如果你有了洞见， 那个洞见就会消除自我， 不是暂时的， 不是暂时的。 那么你会说， 这样的行动就是没有动机的吗？ 你知道这样的行动吗？ 不是偶尔， 而是每一天的生活？ 我不想偶尔才有人喂我， 我想要每天都有人喂我。 我不想只在偶尔才快乐， 我想要—— 你知道，诸如此类。 由于洞见没有时间， 与记忆、思想是分开的， 那么有没有一种 源于洞见的行动呢？ 你明白吗？
58:24 WR: If you have insight – I don’t say ‘had’ because that means memory again, the past. 58:24 拉：如果你有洞见 ——我不会说“曾经有”，因为 那同样意味着记忆、过去。
58:30 K: Have insight. 58:30 克：有洞见。
58:32 WR: If you have insight, there is no exception, all your actions are without motive. 58:32 拉：如果你有洞见， 那么，你的所有行动无一例外， 都是没有动机的。
58:43 K: Again, forgive me – are we talking theoretically or actually? 58:43 克：请再次原谅我 ——我们现在谈的是 理论还是实际？
58:48 WR: Actually. 58:48 沃：实际。
58:51 K: That means action is correct, accurate, right through life. 58:51 克：这意味着行动 正确无误，贯穿一生。
59:03 WR: Yes. You may make mistakes, sir, technically. 59:03 沃：是的。 你可能会 犯技术上的错误，先生。
59:11 K: No, I am not talking of technically. 59:11 克：不，我谈的不是技术。
59:13 WR: But there is no self, there is no motive if you have that insight. Every action... 59:13 拉：但是，你若有这种洞见， 就没有自我，没有动机存在了。 每次行动
59:21 K: Have you got that insight? Not you, sir, has one insight, that insight into the whole nature of the self, not arguments, not inductions, not deductions, not conclusions, but have an insight into the nature of the self? And therefore the self, if there is an insight into the self, then action will inevitably follow from that insight. 59:21 克：你有这样的洞见吗？ 不是说你，先生，一个人 洞见到整个自我的本质， 不是论证，不是归纳， 不是演绎，不是结论， 而是洞见到自我的本质了吗？ 那样的话，洞见到自我， 如果能洞见到自我的话， 那么行动必然会 从这种洞见中产生。
59:59 IS: May I make one point clear that I feel strongly about, it is not that I have the insight, that is not possible. There is that insight. 59:59 施：我想澄清一点， 我强烈地感受到， 并不是我有洞见， 那是不可能的。 有那种洞见存在。
1:00:12 K: What? Is there such insight? 1:00:12 克：什么？ 有这种洞见吗？
1:00:14 IS: There is the insight. It is not as if I have it. 1:00:14 施：有洞见存在。 不是好像我有洞见。
1:00:19 GN: It is not that I have insight, there is insight. 1:00:19 纳：不是我有洞见， 而是洞见存在。
1:00:24 K: I have no insight, I am only blind. If I say, ‘I have an insight into that’, I am a little bit mentally deranged. So what are we talking about? You asked a question, sir. 1:00:24 克：我没有洞见， 我只是瞎子。 如果我说 “我对此有洞见”， 我就有点精神错乱了。 那么我们在谈什么呢？ 你问了一个问题，先生。
1:00:44 WR: Of course, we have gone very far away from my question. 1:00:44 拉：当然，我们离题太远了。
1:00:47 K: I know. 1:00:47 克：我知道。
1:00:49 WR: Now let us forget that question altogether, that was answered. 1:00:49 拉：现在我们完全忘掉这个 问题吧，这个已经回答完了。
1:00:52 K: Let’s go back to it. 1:00:52 克：我们回到正题。
1:00:55 WR: No, that question you have answered. Then there is another question, also related. You see, there is – perhaps you are aware of this theory – many people... that we think in a language, there is a belief. Many people say that. 1:00:55 拉：不，这个问题 您已经回答过了。 然后还有另一个问题， 也是相关的。 你看，有 ——也许你 知道这个理论—— 很多人 认为我们用语言思考， 有这样一种看法。 很多人都这么说。
1:01:17 K: What? 1:01:17 克：什么？
1:01:17 WR: You think in a language. Very often they ask me: in which language do you think. I say, I don’t know. There is no language in thinking. Thought has no language, and the thought is immediately interpreted into the nearest language. 1:01:17 拉：你借助一种语言来思考。 他们经常问我： 你用哪种语言思考。 我说，我不知道。 思维过程中并没有语言。 思想没有语言， 而思想旋即给解释 为最接近的语言了。
1:01:41 K: Sir, could you convey your thought to me without the word? 1:01:41 克：先生，您能不用言语 向我传达您的想法吗？
1:01:45 WR: That is the thing. When you convey thought, it is indefinite. 1:01:45 拉：就是这个问题。 当你传达思想时， 思想是模糊不清的。
1:01:49 K: No, sir. Can you convey your thought to me without the word? 1:01:49 克：不，先生。 你能不用 言语向我传达你的想法吗？
1:01:58 WR: That depends on the level. 1:01:58 拉：这取决于层次。
1:02:01 K: Which means what? 1:02:01 克：这是什么意思？
1:02:04 WR: I don’t know whether you accept it, or whether you have that experience: without talking, without words, there is communication. 1:02:04 拉：我不知道 你是否相信， 或者你是否有这样的经历： 我们不说话，不使用语言， 却在交流。
1:02:16 K: That is, sir, there can only be communication, communion when you and I are on the same level and with the same intensity, at the same time. Right? Which is what? When you and I are on the same level, with the same intensity, at the same time, what is that thing? Then words are not necessary. 1:02:16 克：也就是说，先生， 我们要想有交流，有情感的交融， 唯有你我 处于同一层面、 同一强度、同一时间， 才有可能。 对吗？ 那是什么呢？ 你我在同一时间 处于同一层面、 同一强度， 那个东西是什么呢？ 那么言语就没有必要了。
1:03:04 WR: No. 1:03:04 拉：不。
1:03:07 K: What is that thing? 1:03:07 克：那是什么东西？
1:03:10 WR: You can say if you like, that it is thought. 1:03:10 拉：您要是愿意， 可以说它是思想。
1:03:17 K: No, no. Sir, when both of us are like that, what is the quality of that state? Not the absence of thought, but the quality, the perfume, the thing. Wouldn’t you call that love? 1:03:17 克：不，不。 先生，我们都这样的时候， 那是什么品质的状态？ 不是没有思想， 而是那个东西的品质、芬芳。 你不认为那就是爱吗？ 沃：是的。
1:03:53 WR: Yes. 1:03:53 克：不，不要，不要。
1:03:54 K: No, don’t, don’t. 1:03:54 拉：但是你问了我， 或者你正准备回答。
1:03:56 WR: But you asked me, or just you are going to answer it. I get confused when you put it to me and people are expecting me to answer it. 1:03:56 我弄糊涂了， 因为你问我这个问题， 而人们在期待我来回答。
1:04:08 K: Sir, when two people have this extraordinary quality of this state, words are not necessary. There is that quality of love which exists, therefore the words become unnecessary. There is instant communication. Now, for most of us, language drives us. Right? Right, sir? Language drives us, pushes us, shapes us. Our minds are conditioned by language, which is language, words, drive us, force us. I am an Englishman – the language, and the contents of that language. Right? And if we use words without the language directing us, words then have an entirely different meaning. 1:04:08 克：先生，两个人 具有了这种非凡的状态、品质， 语言就没有必要了。 有那种爱的品质存在， 因此语言就不必要了。 我们一下子就沟通上了。 现在，对于大部分人来说， 是语言在驱使我们。 对吗？ 对吧，先生？ 语言驱使我们、 推动我们、塑造我们。 我们的思想 受到语言的塑造， 语言、文字 驱使我们、强迫我们。 我是英国人 ——语言， 以及该语言的内容。 对吗？ 如果我们使用语言， 而不受语言指挥， 那时语言就有了 完全不同的意义。
1:05:52 GN: The language doesn’t drive you, but you drive the language. 1:05:52 纳：不是语言驱使你， 而是你驱使语言。
1:05:55 K: That’s right. 1:05:55 克：是的。
1:05:57 DB: I think that ordinarily we are identified with our language, and therefore it is driving us, but if we are free of identification... 1:05:57 博：我认为通常 我们都认同我们的语言， 因此语言在驱使我们， 但我们要是 摆脱了认同
1:06:07 K: That’s why, sir, it is extraordinary how language has made us. I am a communist. 1:06:07 克：这就是为什么，先生， 语言对我们造成了 非同寻常的影响。 我是共产主义者。
1:06:14 DB: That’s an identification. 1:06:14 博：这是一种身份认同。
1:06:15 K: That’s it, that’s it. 1:06:15 克：就是这样，就是这样。
1:06:17 DB: But do you think that language is the major source of identification? 1:06:17 博：但是您认为 语言是认同的主要来源吗？
1:06:21 K: One of them. 1:06:21 克：是其中一个。
1:06:22 DB: One of the big ones. 1:06:22 博：主要的一个。
1:06:25 K: Yes. 1:06:25 克：是的。
1:06:27 WR: I don’t know whether it would be useful, I would like to remind here of a very important Mahayana Buddhist philosophical attitude. That is, it is said that the world is caught up in language. Naamkaya, Padakaya Vyanjana... 1:06:27 拉：我不知道是否有用， 我想在这里提醒大家， 大乘佛教哲学 有一个非常重要的看法。 即，世人都受语言束缚。 Naamkaya、Padakaya Vyanjana
1:06:44 K: In Sanskrit too. 1:06:44 克：梵语里也有。
1:06:47 WR: Yes, these are Sanskrit words. And it is said the ordinary man is stuck in words just like an elephant in the mud, and so one must go beyond words – Nam, Pada, Vyanjana, to see them. Because as long as you are, as you say, driven by language... 1:06:47 拉：是的，这些是梵文词汇。 认为普通人困在文字中， 就像大象陷在泥沼中一样， 因此必须超越文字 ——Nam、Pada、Vyanjana， 才能看到它们。 因为就像你说的， 只要你受语言驱使
1:07:18 K: Are you? 1:07:18 克：你受驱使吗？
1:07:23 WR: Are you asking personally? 1:07:23 拉：你是问我个人吗？
1:07:25 K: Yes, are you? Am I? Dr Bohm, is he driven by language? 1:07:25 克：是的，你受驱使吗？ 我受驱使吗？ 博姆博士， 他受语言驱使吗？
1:07:41 WR: That I can’t see. You answer that. 1:07:41 拉：我看不到。 你来回答这个问题。
1:07:46 K: I can answer for myself, but I am asking you. 1:07:46 克：我可以自己回答， 但我是在问你。
1:07:52 WR: Yes, you answer for yourself. 1:07:52 拉：是的，你说说你自己。
1:07:54 K: Oh, absolutely. 1:07:54 克：哦，当然受。
1:07:56 WR: That’s enough. 1:07:56 拉：这就够了。
1:07:59 K: That’s not enough. 1:07:59 克：这还不够。
1:08:03 GN: But I think the more skilful, or scholarly one becomes in language, I suppose there is a greater possibility of being caught in language. 1:08:03 纳：但我认为， 一个人越擅长语言， 或者在语言方面学问越大， 我认为他就越可能 陷在语言里。
1:08:15 WR: Yes. Certainly. 1:08:15 沃：是的。当然。
1:08:20 GN: Whereas the rustic might just use it for simple communication. 1:08:20 纳：而乡下人可能只是 用语言进行简单交流。
1:08:26 K: Sir, that was your question whether thought has words, whether thought is part of words. Does the word create the thought, or thought create the word? Egg? 1:08:26 克：先生，这就是你的问题： 思想是否有语言， 思想是否是语言的一部分。 是词语创造了思想， 还是思想创造了词语？ 蛋？
1:08:57 DB: You once asked the question, is there a thought without the word? 1:08:57 博：您曾经问过这样一个问题： 存在没有文字的想法吗？
1:09:01 K: That’s what I want to... That is very interesting, sir, shall we go into it a little bit? Do you want to go into it, sir? 1:09:01 克：这就是我想要的 这很有趣，先生， 我们可以探讨一下吗？ 先生，您想探究一下吗？
1:09:10 WR: Is there a thought without the word. 1:09:10 拉：存在没有文字的想法吗？
1:09:11 DB: That is the question. 1:09:11 博：就是这个问题。
1:09:17 WR: I think thought has no word. Thought has no word. Thought is an image. 1:09:17 拉：我认为思想没有文字。 思想没有文字。 思想是形象。
1:09:25 K: No, we are using the word in the sense to include the symbol, the image, the picture, the word – all that. 1:09:25 克：不，我们使用这个词， 也包括符号、形象、 图像、文字 ——包括所有这些。
1:09:38 DB: You see, the word can easily be turned into an image, for example, by an artist, a description can be turned by an artist into an image, or vice versa, the image could be described and turned into words. So they have an equivalent content. 1:09:38 博：你看，文字可以很容易 就转变成形象， 例如，艺术家就能， 艺术家可以将描述文字 描绘成形象， 反之亦然，形象可以 描述下来，并转化成文字。 所以他们的内容是等同的。
1:09:58 K: Sir, what is the origin of thought? If you had to find out, not what the Buddha said, if you, as a human being, had to find out something, you must find out otherwise your head will be chopped off; it is something tremendously important that you must find out, what will you do: what is the origin of thought? God made the world and the word was incarnate... What is it? At the beginning of the Bible, Genesis. I’ve forgotten it. 1:09:58 克：先生， 思想的起源是什么？ 如果你必须弄清答案， 而不是佛陀怎么讲， 如果你作为一个人， 必须弄清什么， 你就一定要弄明白， 否则你会被砍掉脑袋； 这件事非常重要， 你必须弄清楚， 你该怎么办： 思想的起源是什么？ 上帝创造了世界，道（言语） 成了肉身……那是什么来着？ 在圣经的开头， 创世记。 我忘了。
1:10:52 DB: I’ve forgotten it, I can’t remember the Genesis. 1:10:52 博：我忘了， 我不记得创世记了。
1:10:55 K: I’m sorry, this is common, you hear it on... 1:10:55 克： 抱歉，这很常见， 您可以在……上听到。
1:11:02 K: Please sir, answer that question. 1:11:02 克： 先生，请回答这个问题。
1:11:08 WR: Is there an origin? 1:11:08 拉：有起源吗？
1:11:11 K: Is there? 1:11:11 克：有吗？
1:11:12 WR: Is there an origin? 1:11:12 拉：有起源吗？
1:11:13 K: Must be. 1:11:13 克：一定有。
1:11:15 WR: Why must? 1:11:15 拉：为什么一定有？
1:11:16 K: Otherwise – in you, sir, what is the origin? 1:11:16 克：否则—— 先生，你的本源是什么？
1:11:24 WR: No origin. 1:11:24 拉：没有来源。
1:11:26 K: Of course, sir, there must be a beginning of thought. 1:11:26 克：当然有，先生， 思想必然有开始。
1:11:33 WR: That is again a fallacy, a wrong way of looking at it. 1:11:33 拉：这又是一个谬论， 一种错误的看待问题的方式。
1:11:39 K: No, no, no. 1:11:39 克：不，不，不。
1:11:41 WR: By asking everything must have a beginning. 1:11:41 拉：要求一切 都必须有个开始。
1:11:44 K: No, I am not asking everything has a beginning. I am just asking in order to find out, what is the beginning of thought. How did thought begin? With the dog – you follow, sir? – with the animals, everything that is living, they all think in various ways, or feel, and so on, there must be a beginning of that. What is that in human beings? 1:11:44 克：不，我并不是要求 一切都有个开始。 我问，只是为了弄明白， 思想的开端是什么。 思想是如何开始的？ 和狗一起 ——你明白吗，先生？ —— 对于动物， 对一切生命来说， 它们都会以不同的方式 思考、或者感觉，等等， 那一定有个开始。 人思想的起源是什么？
1:12:38 IS: If we had no desire at all, we would have no thought. 1:12:38 施：我们若无欲无求， 就不会有思想。
1:12:42 K: No, it is not a question of that. 1:12:42 克：不，不是这个问题。
1:12:45 DB: Are you discussing thought without identification or with identification? 1:12:45 博：您讨论的是 没有认同的思想 还是有认同的思想？
1:12:48 K: No, sir. How did thought begin in myself? Was it handed down by my father, by my parents, by education, by environment, by the past? I want to know. What made me think? Go on, sir. What made you think? 1:12:48 克：不，先生。 我自己的思想是如何开始的？ 是由我的父亲、 我的父母、教育、 环境、过去传承下来的吗？ 我想知道。 是什么让我思考的？ 继续，先生。 是什么让你思考的？
1:13:28 WR: The question is this, you are putting some cause behind this, but I would say, nothing made me think, it is in the nature of yourself thinking. 1:13:28 拉：问题是这样的， 您认为这背后存在某个原因， 但我想说的是， 没有什么让我思考， 你是出于自己的本性而思考的。
1:13:40 K: No. 1:13:40 克：没有。
1:13:41 WR: There is no other origin, cause. 1:13:41 拉：没有其他来源、原因。
1:13:43 K: Oh yes, there is. I’ll show you. 1:13:43 克：哦，有的，有。 我会给你看。
1:13:46 WR: What is that? 1:13:46 拉：那是什么呢？
1:13:46 K: I’ll tell you in a minute. 1:13:46 克：我一会儿就告诉你。
1:13:49 K: No, I am not the final authority, sir. I’d like to talk it over. If I had no memory, would there be thinking? 1:13:49 克：我不是 最后拍板的权威，先生。 我想谈一谈。 若没有记忆， 我还会思考吗？
1:14:04 WR: I ask you again, what is the origin of memory? 1:14:04 拉：我再问你一下， 记忆的起源是什么？
1:14:07 K: That’s fairly simple to answer. I remember seeing you in Paris – which I don’t – but suppose I remember seeing you in Paris – that is recorded, isn’t it? Right, sir? 1:14:07 克：这很容易回答。 我记得在巴黎见过你 ——其实我不记得—— 但假设我记得 在巴黎见过你 ——那件事给记录 下来了，不是吗？ 对吧，先生？
1:14:30 WR: That is generally accepted that it is recorded in the brain. 1:14:30 拉：人们普遍认为 记录在大脑中了。
1:14:35 K: No, it is an ordinary fact. 1:14:35 克：不，这是个普通的事实。
1:14:37 WR: No, that I do not accept. It is an old 19th-century, 20th-century theory that everything is recorded in the brain somewhere. 1:14:37 拉：不，我不接受这个说法。 这是一个19世纪、 20世纪的旧理论， 一切都记录 在大脑的某个地方。
1:14:48 K: No, sir. Look, I met you this week, you come back a year later – I hope you will – and then I say, yes, sir, I recognise you. Right? How does that recognition take place? 1:14:48 克：不，先生。 听着，我这周见到了你， 一年后你会回来 ——我希望你会来—— 然后我说，是的，先生， 我认出了你。 对吗？ 这种识别是如何发生的？
1:15:09 WR: Very good you carried on because this is a question that I want to ask you. How does memory arise? I didn’t ask it, but this is the question that I very much wanted to ask you. 1:15:09 拉：您展开谈了，很好， 因为这是 我想问您的问题。 记忆是如何产生的？ 我虽然没问， 但这是我很想问的 那个问题。
1:15:23 K: I am doing that, sir. I meet you now, and in a year’s time you come back – I hope you will – for a discussion. Then I say, yes, sir, Mr Rahula, we met last year. How does that take place? Very simple. Memory. The brain has recorded that memory of meeting you, learning your name. So that is memory, and when I meet you next time I recognise you. Right? There is nothing... 1:15:23 克：我正在谈这个，先生。 我现在见到你了， 一年后你回来 ——我希望你会回来—— 进行讨论。 然后我说，啊，先生， 拉胡拉先生，我们去年见过。 这是怎么发生的？ 很简单。因为有记忆。 大脑记录了那段记忆： 与你相遇， 得知你的名字。 这就是记忆， 我下次见到你， 就认出了你。 对吗？这没什么
1:16:06 WR: How does it happen? That is the question. 1:16:06 拉：这是怎么发生的？ 就是那个问题。
1:16:11 K: It is very simple. You have been introduced to me, we have sat down here for two afternoons and a morning, and that is remembered, when you come back next year, I say, yes. If I didn’t remember, I wouldn’t recognise you. Right? So recording goes on – it is not the 19th, or 1st century or the 20th century – recording must go on. The elaborate educating process of learning a technique, how to drive a car, or go to the moon, whatever it is, it is careful accumulation of memory, which then acts. There is nothing wrong in that, is there? 1:16:11 克：很简单。 有人向我介绍你， 我们在这里坐了 两个下午一个上午， 我记住了这件事， 你明年回来， 我说，是的。 我若不记得， 就认不出你了。 对吗？ 所以会不断记录—— 这不是19世纪、1世纪 或20世纪 ——记录必然会发生。 那些复杂的教育过程， 比如学习一门技术， 驾驶汽车、登月， 无论是什么， 都是先精心积累记忆， 记忆再采取行动。 这里没有任何问题， 不是吗？
1:17:18 WR: How does it happen? 1:17:18 拉：这是怎么发生的呢？
1:17:20 K: Sir, I don’t know how to drive a car, so I go to the man who teaches me how to drive a car. I take twenty four lessons, at the end of it I am inspected and the man says, ‘You are pretty good’. And you say I have learnt it by driving with him, he is telling me, be careful, turn to the left, he is guiding me all the time. So at the end of twenty four lessons I am a good driver. I hope. And that’s all. There is nothing right or wrong about it. In the same way I meet you today, next year I will remember, which is, there is remembrance, which is the recording process. No? It is so simple. 1:17:20 克：先生，我不会开车， 所以我找人教我开车。 我上了二十四节课， 最后我参加了考试， 那个人说， “你开的很好”。 你说我和他一起开车， 已经学会了， 他告诉我， 小心，向左转， 他一直在引导我。 所以，在二十四节课后， 我成了合格的司机。 我希望是这样。 就是这么回事。 这没有对错。 同样，我今天遇见你， 明年我会记起来， 就是存在回忆， 记录过程。 不是吗？就是这么简单。
1:18:15 WR: Still it is not completely clear to me. Let us admit it is recorded, how does that record come up when we meet next year? 1:18:15 拉：我还是不太清楚。 我们且承认这件事 记录下来了， 那我们明年见面时， 那个记录是怎么出现的？
1:18:28 K: Oh, when I see you. That memory springs up and says, oh, he is Mr Rahula. And the recording is the image, pleasurable or not pleasurable. 1:18:28 克：哦，我一看到你， 那段记忆就会冒上来说， 哦，他是拉胡拉先生。 记录就是形象， 或者是愉快的或者是不愉快的。
1:18:44 WR: I hope it will be pleasurable! 1:18:44 拉：我希望是愉快的！
1:18:51 K: And that is recorded, and when I meet you next time, I meet you. But if it is not pleasurable I say, ‘Well, what a bore’. And I turn away and talk about something else. So this whole process is recorded – how I’ve learnt to drive a car, how I’ve learnt to speak English, French, German, whatever it is, there must be recording. No? 1:18:51 克：这件事记录下来了， 我下次见到你， 我会见到你。 但那次记录若令人不快， 我就会说，“啊，真无聊”。 我就扭头谈别的去了。 所以这整个过程都给记录下来了 ——我学会开车， 我学会说英语、 法语、德语，不管是什么， 我必须记录。 不是吗？
1:19:24 WR: Certainly it is so. 1:19:24 拉：当然是这样。
1:19:26 K: But you said 19th century... 1:19:26 克：但你说19世纪
1:19:29 WR: What I want to say is, it is not in the brain. That is the thing. 1:19:29 拉：我想说的是， 记忆并不在大脑里。 就是这个问题。
1:19:36 K: Where is it? 1:19:36 克：那在哪里？
1:19:37 WR: It is in the nature of what we call generally the mental faculty. Just as eye, ear, nose, etc., the mind faculty, the mental faculty also is a faculty. 1:19:37 拉：这就是我们通常 所说的心的官能（心根）的本质。 就如眼、耳、鼻等， 心的官能也是一种官能。
1:19:51 K: Yes. 1:19:51 克：是的。
1:19:52 WR: That is one of the potentialities. 1:19:52 拉：这是一种潜力。
1:19:58 K: It is the faculty of the brain to record. 1:19:58 克：大脑有记录的能力。
1:20:05 WR: It is not the physical brain. That is my point. 1:20:05 拉：不是有形的大脑。 这就是我的观点。
1:20:12 K: Ah, you have gone off into something else. 1:20:12 克：啊，你已经偏离的话题了。
1:20:14 WR: Yes, that is what I say. 1:20:14 拉：是的，我说的就是这个。
1:20:15 GN: You are saying that the mental faculty is spread all over the body, not necessarily in the head? Is that... when you say it is not in the brain. 1:20:15 纳：你是说心的官能 遍布全身，不一定在头里面？ 你说心的官能不在大脑中， 那是
1:20:23 WR: Our mental faculty is one of the sense organs, there are five physical sense organs. You see, the eye has the power to see and to examine, the ear can’t do it, it can hear only. And there is the mental faculty just like eye, ear, nose, tongue – all the physical faculties – there is the mental faculty, which eye, ear, nose, tongue and body deals with the external world, material world. But the world is not finished by that, the bigger part of the world is not touched by that. 1:20:23 拉：心的官能是 各种感官功能之一， 我们有五种身体感官。 你看，眼睛有能力 去看和检查， 耳朵不能看，只能听。 我们还有心的官能， 就像眼、耳、鼻、舌 ——所有的身体感官一样 ——还有心的官能， 眼、耳、鼻、舌、身 与外部世界、 物质世界打交道。 但这些感官还 不能感知整个世界， 没有触及到更广阔的世界。
1:21:05 K: What is the bigger part of the world? 1:21:05 克：更广阔的世界是什么？
1:21:07 WR: The bigger part of the world? That is what we were talking about, these sensations, and all these things are not touched by the body, or anything like that. Then the mind faculty, the mental faculty is the thing that has many, many aspects, many potentialities; one is this memory. And what I want to clarify from you is how does it happen, and of course you begin with the idea of the brain... 1:21:07 拉：更广阔的世界？ 这就是我们所说的， 这些感觉， 身体或类似的感官 没有触及到这些东西。 那么心根，心的官能， 包括很多很多方面， 包括很多潜力； 其中之一就是这个记忆。 我想请您澄清的是， 记忆是如何发生的， 当然你是从大脑的 观念开始的
1:21:42 K: No. 1:21:42 克：不。
1:21:43 WR:...the recording in the brain, and with which I disagree. 1:21:43 拉：……从大脑做记录开始， 而我不同意这点。
1:21:47 K: Sir, let’s cut out the brain, for the moment. I meet you today and I see you a week later. There is the process of recognition. All right. That’s one part of the faculty. The other part of the faculty is to think logically, or not logically. So there are several aspects, faculties which are made up in the mind. You cannot have mind without the brain. 1:21:47 克：先生，我们暂时 把大脑丢开吧。 我今天见到你， 一周后我见到你。 这有个认识过程。 好的。 这是官能的一部分。 官能的另一部分 是思考，或者有逻辑， 或无逻辑。 因此，在心中构成的 官能有几个方面。 没有大脑，就无法思想。
1:22:32 WR: Yes. Certainly not only the brain, but without the body, without the stomach, without the heart. 1:22:32 沃：是的。 当然不仅没有大脑不行， 而且没有身体， 没有胃， 没有心脏也不行。
1:22:40 K: What? 1:22:40 克：什么？
1:22:40 GN: He includes all the physical. 1:22:40 纳：他把整个身体都包括进去了。
1:22:43 WR: Without the physical existence you can’t have the mind. 1:22:43 拉：没有身体的存在， 你就不可能有心灵。
1:22:46 K: That’s all. 1:22:46 克：就是这么回事。
1:22:47 WR: Why only brain? 1:22:47 拉：那你为什么只说大脑呢？
1:22:49 K: Therefore the mind is part of the senses, the mind is part of the thought, emotions, certain faculties, to think and so on, so on. Is that outside, or the whole structure of the organism, the whole brain, body, eyes, ears, all that is part of this mind which is the process of thinking. No? 1:22:49 克：因此，心灵 是感官的一部分， 心灵是思想、 情感、某些官能、 思考等等的一部分。 心灵是位于外部， 还是说，它是整个身体结构， 整个大脑、身体、 眼睛、耳朵， 所有这些都是这个心灵的一部分，也就是思想的过程。 不是吗？
1:23:34 DB: Are you saying mind is thought, or is it more than thought as well? 1:23:34 博：你是说心灵就是思想， 还是它也不仅仅是思想？
1:23:41 K: I don’t know but... 1:23:41 克：我不知道，但是……
1:23:42 DB: That includes thought. 1:23:42 博：这包括思想。
1:23:43 K: I don’t want to say that. 1:23:43 克：我不想这么说。
1:23:45 DB: Just say thought. I only want to say the mind as long as it is functioning within the field of thought, is limited. 1:23:45 博：只说思想。 我只想说，只要头脑 在思想领域内运作， 它就是有限的。
1:23:56 DB: You mean consciousness, the mind is that. 1:23:56 博：你的意思是意识， 心灵就是这样的。
1:23:58 K: Yes, consciousness is limited. 1:23:58 克：是的，意识 是有限的。
1:24:03 DB: We say it is limited by these faculties, wherever they are. 1:24:03 博：我们说它受到这些 感官的限制，无论它们在哪儿。
1:24:06 K: Yes, that’s right, whatever they are. 1:24:06 克：是的，没错， 不管是什么感官。
1:24:14 DB: But as far as recognition goes, people are even making machines that can imitate the process of recognition. 1:24:14 博：但就识别而言， 人们甚至正在制造 可以模仿 识别过程的机器。
1:24:20 K: Of course. 1:24:20 克：当然。
1:24:22 DB: You know you can recognise simple things already by means of a computer. 1:24:22 博：你知道你已经 可以通过计算机 识别简单的东西了。
1:24:26 IS: And yet, if I have met you just for a moment and there was not a sufficient impact of you of that meeting image, I will next week pass you by and not recognise you. 1:24:26 施：不过，我要是见到你 只有一会儿， 而那次见面没有 给我留下足够的印象， 那么下周我就会与你 擦肩而过，没认出你来。
1:24:44 K: Of course. 1:24:44 克：当然。
1:24:44 DB: That’s the point, it has to be recorded with some energy, you see. 1:24:44 博：这是关键， 你看，记录必须要有 一定的能量。
1:24:48 IS: That is what I mean, there must be sufficient energy. 1:24:48 施：就是这个意思， 要有足够的能量。
1:24:51 K: Of course, all recording must have energy. 1:24:51 克：当然，所有记录 都必须有能量。
1:24:54 DB: If you don’t turn on the microphone, nothing is recorded. 1:24:54 博：麦克风要是不打开， 就不会录制任何内容。
1:25:00 WR: And many things that we see and hear we don’t remember, only things that leave a certain impression. 1:25:00 拉：我们看到听到 很多事情，却不记得了， 除了留下一定印象的那些事。
1:25:08 DB: You see, I think it is fairly clear how the record could give rise to a recognition and the next experience. The next time you see the person the record is compared with. 1:25:08 博：你看， 我认为这相当清楚， 也就是，记录是 怎样引起认别的， 是怎样产生下一次经验的。 下一次你看到那个人， 就会拿记录做比较。
1:25:22 WR: It comes back. 1:25:22 拉：就想起来了。
1:25:24 DB: It comes back, yes. 1:25:24 博：就想起来了，是的。
1:25:25 WR: It is exactly like the computer. 1:25:25 拉：这跟计算机一模一样。
1:25:29 K: So our brains are computers. 1:25:29 克：所以我们的大脑就是计算机。
1:25:33 WR: I should say, no, not the brain. 1:25:33 拉：我应该说， 不，不是大脑。
1:25:36 K: What is the brain? 1:25:36 克：什么是大脑？
1:25:38 WR: The brain may be the basis. Why do you only say brain, why not the whole body, whole heart, without heart can you think? 1:25:38 拉：大脑可能是基础。 为什么您只说大脑， 为什么不说整个身心， 没有心能思考吗？
1:25:44 K: No. Therefore, sir, we said that. The brain, the mind, the mind contains the brain, the feelings, the heart, the whole structure. 1:25:44 克：不能。 所以，先生，我们说过这个。 大脑，心灵， 心灵包含大脑、 情感、心脏、 整个结构。
1:25:56 DB: All the nerve centres. 1:25:56 博：所有的神经中枢。
1:25:57 K: We are using the word ‘mind’ as consciousness, which is I cannot have consciousness if the heart doesn’t function. 1:25:57 克：我们用 “心”这个词来表示意识， 也就是说，如果心脏不工作， 我就无法拥有意识。
1:26:09 WR: That is why I used the word mental faculty instead of the mind or consciousness, the word faculty embracing, involving all that department. 1:26:09 拉：这就是为什么我使用 “心的官能”这个词 而不是“心灵” 或“意识”， “官能”这个词 涵盖了所有的感官。
1:26:23 K: What do you mean by the word faculty? What does the word mean, sir? 1:26:23 克：“官能”这个词是什么意思？ 先生，这个词是什么意思？
1:26:29 DB: To have some capacity and ability – capacity to do something. 1:26:29 博：拥有一定的能力 ——做事的能力。
1:26:36 WR: The ability to do, like when you say a visual faculty. 1:26:36 拉：做事的能力， 就像你说的视觉能力一样。
1:26:41 K: No, sir, ability to do depends on knowledge. If I didn’t know how to play the piano, that is, I learnt it. 1:26:41 克：不，先生，做事的能力 取决于知识。 我以前不会弹钢琴， 也就是说，我是学会的。
1:26:56 WR: No, excuse me, sir, you are going away from the point. I said the mind faculty, mind has the power, the capacity, the potentiality to do all that. And those are different aspects of the thing. 1:26:56 拉：不，对不起，先生， 您跑题了。 我说的是心的官能， 心有能量、能力、 潜力去做这一切。 这些是事情的不同方面。
1:27:09 K: Oh, I see. 1:27:09 克：哦，我明白了。
1:27:10 DB: The faculty is inborn, are you saying? 1:27:10 博：你是说感官能力 是与生俱来的吗？
1:27:12 WR: Inborn, innate, in itself it has the power. And you can’t ask why and from where. 1:27:12 拉：天生的，天生的， 它本身就有力量。 而且你无法问 为什么，从哪里来。
1:27:18 K: No, I want to ask that. I won’t accept the mind has the inborn faculty. 1:27:18 克：不，我想问这个。 我不会接受心灵 有与生俱来的能力。
1:27:26 DB: To think. 1:27:26 博：去思考。
1:27:30 K: Inborn which means it is not genetic, it is not heredity. 1:27:30 克：天生的，这意味着它不是 遗传的，不是遗传的。
1:27:34 DB: No, inborn means genetic. 1:27:34 博：不，天生意味着遗传。
1:27:36 WR: No, no, that is not right. Say the mind just like our eyes has the power to see. 1:27:36 拉：不，不，这是不对的。 说心就像我们的眼睛一样 有看的能力。
1:27:47 K: So the mind has the power... 1:27:47 克：所以心灵有力量……
1:27:50 WR:...to do all those tricks, all those things that we are taught – the memory, reaction and sensation, and all that. 1:27:50 拉：……去做所有这些技巧， 所有 我们被教导的事情 ——记忆、反应 和感觉，等等。
1:27:58 K: The mind is the active energy to do all this. 1:27:58 克：心灵是 完成这一切的活跃能量。
1:28:04 DB: Also the physical structure is all over the body. I think that it is a good analogy to say that the eye has certain possibilities, and in this whole body already the infant has the ability to think, already built into him because of the heredity. 1:28:04 博：而且这种身体结构 遍布全身。 我认为这是一个很好的类比， 说眼睛 具有一定的可能性， 并且在婴儿的整个身体中已经 具有思考的能力， 由于遗传而已经内置于他的能力中。
1:28:23 K: How has this ‘built in’ come into being? 1:28:23 克：这种“内置”是如何 形成的？
1:28:28 DB: By growing in the same way that the eye grew. You see, the eye has a tremendous... 1:28:28 博：眼睛怎样生长， 这种能力就怎样生长。 你看，眼睛有巨大的……
1:28:31 K: Which means evolution. 1:28:31 克：这意味着进化。
1:28:33 DB: Evolution, yes. 1:28:33 博：进化，是的。
1:28:34 K: Wait, wait, go slowly. Which means, right from the beginning, it has evolved till we are now monkeys, greater monkeys. Sorry! 1:28:34 克：等等，等等，慢慢来。 这意味着， 从一开始， 它就已经进化，一直到今天， 我们成了猴子、高级猴子。 对不起！
1:28:48 WR: Again, sir, I question that. You took for granted Darwin’s theory. 1:28:48 拉：先生，我再次对此提出疑问。 您把达尔文的理论 看成理所当然的了。
1:28:55 K: I don’t take Darwin, I see this happening in the world. 1:28:55 克：我不是轻信达尔文， 我看到世界上正在发生这种情况。
1:28:59 WR: When you say we are evolved from the monkey. 1:28:59 拉：您说我们 是从猴子进化来的。
1:29:05 K: We have evolved from imperfect man; or not evolved from perfect man. We are going down the hill instead of up the hill, or we are going uphill, therefore we are imperfect man. 1:29:05 克：我们是从不 完美的人进化来的； 或者不是从完美的人进化来的。 我们正在走下坡路 而不是上坡， 或者我们正在下坡， 因此我们是不完美的人。
1:29:23 DB: I wonder if we want to discuss all these things, they are really details that are not certain. 1:29:23 博：我想知道我们是否想 讨论所有这些， 这些都是细枝末节， 而且是不确定的。
1:29:34 WR: That is why I object to that statement about the monkey evolving. We don’t know about it. 1:29:34 拉：这就是为什么我反对 关于猴子进化的说法。 我们对此一无所知。
1:29:43 K: I don’t know, sir, I don’t know how we have evolved, but I do know the very simple thing which is, without recording there is no thought. 1:29:43 克：我不知道，先生， 我不知道我们是如何进化的， 但我确实知道 一个非常简单的事情，那就是， 没有记录就没有思想。
1:30:02 WR: That means that thought is memory. 1:30:02 拉：这意味着 思想就是记忆。
1:30:05 K: Of course. Thought is memory, which is experience, which is knowledge, stored up – it doesn’t matter where, in my big toe, stored up – and when it is challenged, it operates. 1:30:05 克：当然。 思想是记忆， 也就是经验， 也就是存储的知识 ——存储在哪，在我的 大脚趾里，并不重要—— 一受到挑战， 它就会发挥作用。
1:30:26 DB: Well, we have also said thought is the ability... to reason logically and along with the memory, all that together. 1:30:26 博：嗯，我们也说过， 思想是一种能力 逻辑推理以及 记忆力，所有这些一起。
1:30:35 K: Think logically, or illogically, and so on. 1:30:35 克：有逻辑或没有逻辑地 思考，等等。
1:30:39 DB: All that is what you have called faculties. 1:30:39 博：所有这些就是 你所说的各种官能。
1:30:41 WR: Yes, I used that word because it uses a bigger field than reason. 1:30:41 拉：是的，我使用这个词是因为它使用的领域比理性更大。
1:30:48 DB: But you are saying it still depends on memory. 1:30:48 博：但你是说 这仍然取决于记忆。
1:30:52 K: Of course, a sense of recording is memory. 1:30:52 克：当然， 记录的感觉就是记忆。
1:30:55 DB: Without memory none of the other faculties could operate. 1:30:55 博：没有记忆， 其他官能都无法运作。
1:30:58 K: Of course. I see that thing, it has been called a tree, I call it a tree. That’s all. It is recorded all the time. Without that recording there is no beginning of thought, there is no thought. Sir, if you were born in the Catholic world and conditioned by the Catholic world, you would be thinking along the Catholic world, Christ, you know, the whole business of it. So you are conditioned by propaganda, by books, by priests, by all the circus that goes on, as you are conditioned in India, or Ceylon and so on. So what is the origin, the beginning of this conditioning? Why does man condition himself? For security, to avoid danger? 1:32:24 Obviously. I believe in Christ, because I have been brought up in the Christian world, that’s my conditioning, and this life is a miserable life, unhappy life, but I believe in Christ which gives me a certain sense of comfort, strength to face this appalling thing, the world, so it gives me great comfort. That’s all. It gives me security in an insecure world, psychologically, the Father is looking after me. That’s all. And the Hindus, the Buddhists, the Islams, they are all in the same category. So the instinctual response of a human being is to feel secure, like a child, sir, obviously. No? 1:30:58 克：当然。 我看到那个东西， 人们称之为树， 我把它叫做树。 就是这么回事。 它一直被记录下来。 没有那个记录， 思想就不会开始， 就没有思想。 先生，如果你出生 在天主教社会 并受到天主教社会的塑造， 你就会按照 天主教社会的习惯思考， 基督，你知道， 所有那些事。 所以你受到宣传、 书籍、牧师、 所有正在上演的马戏的塑造， 就像你在印度或锡兰 等地受到的塑造一样。 那么这种塑造的根源、 开端是什么？ 人为什么要塑造他自己？ 是为了安全，为了避免危险吗？ 1:32:24 显然是这样。 我相信基督， 因为我是 在基督教社会长大的， 我受到了这种塑造， 我这一生悲惨而不幸， 但我相信基督， 他给了我某种安慰，让我 有力量面对这可怕的世界， 所以这给了我巨大的安慰。 就是这么回事。 在一个不安全的世界里， 这给了我安全感， 在心理上， 天父在照顾我。 就是这么回事。 印度教徒、 佛教徒、伊斯兰教徒， 他们也都属于同一类型。 因此，人类的本能反应 就是要感到安全， 跟孩子的反应一样， 先生，显然如此。 不是吗？
1:33:54 WR: How does it come about, that sense of security, the feeling of security, what is the origin of that? 1:33:54 拉：这是怎么产生的， 那种安全感， 安全感的根源是什么？
1:34:02 K: The mother and the child, the baby, they must have a little security, the baby must have security, physical security, it must have food at the right time, the right hour, and all the rest of it. 1:34:02 克：母亲和孩子，婴儿， 他们必须有一点安全感， 婴儿必须有安全感， 身体上的安全感， 一到时间，一到时辰， 它必须有东西吃，等等。
1:34:22 DB: Does the baby have a feeling of security at the same time? 1:34:22 博：与此同时， 婴儿有安全的感觉吗？
1:34:26 K: Probably, I don’t know, not being a baby, I don’t remember it, but I am sure it feels safe. 1:34:26 克：可能，我不知道， 因为我不是婴儿， 我不记得了， 但我确信它会感觉很安全。
1:34:32 DB: It feels safe. 1:34:32 博：感觉很安全。
1:34:33 K: Safe, looked after, quiet, the moment it cries the mother is there to change the diapers, to feed it and all the rest of it. What’s wrong with that? From that physical security we turn to psychological security which Christ gives me. It may be nonsense, unreasonable and all kinds of things, but I like that, at least I have comfort in some illusion. But I don’t call it illusion. If you call it illusion, I will kick you. So we go on that way. You have your security in something, I have my security and another has his security in Islam, and so on. So each one of us clings to our own particular form of security, whether it is reasonable, sane, rational, that doesn’t matter. 1:34:33 克：安全、受到照顾、安静， 它一哭， 妈妈就会来， 给它换尿布， 喂它等等。 这有什么问题吗？ 我们从身体安全转向 基督给予我的心理安全。 那也许是胡扯、 不讲道理，如此等等， 但我喜欢这样，至少 在某种幻觉中得到了安慰。 但我说这不是幻觉。 你要说这是幻觉， 我就踢你。 所以我们就这样走下去。 你在某件事上有你的安全感， 我有我的安全感，别人在 伊斯兰教中有他的安全感，等等。 因此，我们每个人都坚持 自己那种安全形式， 不管是否合理、理智、 理性，都没关系。
1:35:54 DB: It seems to me that it is similar to the pleasure question that is you register the feeling of pleasure and then try to build it up. 1:35:54 博：在我看来， 这与快乐问题类似， 即你记录下来快乐的感受， 然后就想要营造快乐。
1:36:01 K: But I can’t give up, I can’t say, well, I’ll let go of Christ, I say, my God, I can’t. 1:36:01 克：但我无法放弃， 我无法说， 好吧，我会放弃基督， 我说，我的上帝，我不能。
1:36:06 DB: It is the same with pleasure, you can’t give up pleasure. 1:36:06 博：快乐也是一样， 你无法放弃快乐。
1:36:09 K: Of course, of course, the same problem. 1:36:09 克：当然，当然， 这是同样的问题。
1:36:13 IS: I think it is harder with pleasure because people nowadays do seem as though they give up or change their religions without too much difficulty, but we are all much more against giving up our pleasure when it really comes to it. 1:36:13 施：我认为快乐更困难， 因为现在的人们 似乎确实毫不费力地放弃 或改变他们的宗教信仰 ， 但当真正涉及到快乐时，我们都更 反对放弃我们的快乐 。
1:36:28 K: Ah, well, that’s a different matter altogether. Physical pleasure... 1:36:28 克：啊，好吧， 那完全是另一回事了。 身体上的快乐
1:36:35 IS: Or pleasures of the mind. 1:36:35 施：或者心灵上的快乐。
1:36:37 K: Of course. 1:36:37 克：当然。
1:36:40 WR: But where are we going? 1:36:40 拉：但是我们要去哪儿呢？
1:36:44 K: Where are we going – I haven’t finished yet. We haven’t discussed the central issue of life: what is action without this enormous complex of motives, reactions, regrets, pain, sorrow. Can a human being live in action without all this dreadful confusion? That’s all. And you say, yes, you can live. And you tell me, if you are a Christian, believe in god, believe in Christ, he will save you from all this. And I am so unhappy, I say, for god’s sake, and I cling to it. 1:37:45 And if you are X, you say, I believe in all the things that the Buddha has said, that to me is good enough. I will take comfort in that: Buddham Sharanam gachchami. So my actions are based on reward and punishment. Right, sir? If I do this, I will reach nirvana, if I don’t, I’ll go to hell, which is the Christian idea and all the rest of it. One has thrown all that overboard, being fairly intelligent and educated, one says, that is all nonsense. I want to find out if there is an action without any shadow of effort and regret. 1:38:48 You understand, sir? It is important to find out, not theoretically or casually – it is a burning question for me, a passionate thing I must find out? because I don’t want to enter into the cage, in the rat race. So what shall we do? What is right action under all circumstances which doesn’t depend on circumstances – my wife says, do this, I love you, but you must do this, or something else. I put away all those influences or pressures, but I want to find out if there is an action which is complete in itself. 1:39:56 So I must understand: is there an action which is total, which is complete, whole, not partial. Which means can I observe myself wholly, not in fragments? Or through the fragment instantly see the whole? So is there an action which is whole? I say, yes, there is, definitely. Don’t you ask me, what is that? 1:36:44 克：我们要去哪儿 ——我还没说完呢。 我们还没有讨论 生活的核心问题： 如果没有错综复杂的 动机、反应、 遗憾、痛苦、悲伤， 我们会怎样行动？ 人类能否生活、行动， 而没有这些可怕的混乱吗？ 就是这么回事。 你说，是的， 你可以活下去。 如果你是基督徒， 你就会告诉我， 相信上帝， 相信基督， 他会把你从这一切中 拯救出来。 而我是如此悲伤，我说， 天哪，于是我就抓住了基督教。 1:37:45 如果你是X，你会说， 我相信 佛陀所说的一切， 这对我来说就足够了。 我从祈祷里得到安慰： Buddham Sharanam gachchami（我皈依佛）。 所以我的行动是 为了得到奖励，逃避惩罚。 对吧，先生？ 我这样做，就会涅槃， 我不这样做，就会下地狱， 这是基督教的观念， 还有其它诸如此类的观念。 而你把这些都抛到了一边， 因为你相当聪明， 受过教育， 你说，那都是胡说八道。 我想弄清 是否有一种行动， 没有一丝 努力和遗憾的阴影。 1:38:48 你明白吗，先生？ 弄清答案很重要， 不是随随便便，玩弄理论 ——这个问题 对我来说迫在眉睫， 是我必须充满激情 去弄清楚的事？ 我不想进到笼子里， 疯狂竞争。 那么我们该怎么办呢？ 什么样的行动 在所有情况下都是正确的， 而不取决于具体情况 ——我妻子说，做这件事， 我爱你，不过你必须做这件事 或者做别的什么事。 我抛开了所有这些 影响、压力， 但我想知道 是否有一种行动 本身就是完整的。 1:39:56 所以我必须弄明白： 有没有一种整体的行动， 一种全面、完整而 不是部分的行动。 意思就是，我能完整地 而不是从碎片中观察自己吗？ 或者说，我能透过碎片 一下子看到整体吗？ 那么有没有 一种完整的行动呢？ 我说，是的，有，确实有。 你不想问我， 那是什么吗？
1:41:02 WR: I wanted to ask, but I was waiting for the reply. 1:41:02 拉：我想问， 但我在等你回答。
1:41:05 K: Ask it! 1:41:05 克：问吧！
1:41:07 WR: I want to ask, what is that? 1:41:07 拉：我想问一下，那是什么？
1:41:15 K: First of all, can you see with your eyes the tree as a whole? Can you see your wife, or your husband, or your girlfriend, or boyfriend, as a whole entity? Do you understand my question? Can you see anything totally, or you are always seeing partially? 1:41:15 克：首先，你能用眼睛 把这棵树看作一个整体吗？ 你能把你的妻子、 你的丈夫、 你的女朋友或男朋友 视为一个整体吗？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 你能完整地看到任何东西吗？ 还是说，你总是看到部分？
1:42:03 WR: When you use the word ‘totally’, what is the meaning? 1:42:03 拉：您用“完整”这个词， 是什么意思？
1:42:07 K: Holistic, whole. Don’t go into something else. Can I see you as a whole being? You understand? Can I see humanity as myself, which is the whole? That’s good enough. Can I see humanity as myself? Because humanity is like me, suffering, miserable, confused, agony, terrified, insecure, sorrow-ridden – like another. Right? So in seeing man, humanity, I see myself. 1:42:07 克：整体，全部。 不要跑到别的事情中去。 我能将你视为一个整体吗？ 你明白吗？ 我能否将人类视为我自己， 即视为一个整体？ 那就足够了。 我能将人类视为我自己吗？ 因为人类就像我一样， 受苦、不幸、困惑、 痛苦、恐惧、不安全、 悲伤——像别人一样。 对吗？ 因此，看到人类， 我就看到了我自己。
1:43:22 WR: Or rather the other way: by seeing yourself you see humanity. 1:43:22 拉：或者更确切地说： 看到你自己，你就看到了人类。
1:43:28 K: Which is me. It doesn’t matter whether you say, I see myself as humanity, then humanity is me. I am not separate from humanity. I don’t say, I’m an elite, I’m this; I am like the rest of the gang. Not the mafiosa but the ordinary gang. So I see the world as myself, which is the whole. That’s simple, sir – no, not simple, it is – would that be right, sir? 1:43:28 克：也就是我。 怎么说都可以，你说， 我把自己视为人类， 那么人类就是我。 我与人类并不的分开的。 我不说，我是精英，我就是这样； 我和这帮人一样。 不是指黑手党， 而是平常说的大伙儿。 所以我把世界看作我自己， 这就是整体。 这很简单，先生——不，这并 不简单——这样可以吗，先生？
1:44:18 DB: I was wondering if, what you said, we could consider the tree for a moment. 1:44:18 博：我想知道，正如你所说， 我们是否可以考虑一下这棵树。
1:44:23 K: The tree is too petty. I don’t want to... 1:44:23 克：这棵树太微不足道了。 我不想
1:44:26 DB: It is not clear when you say you see the tree as a whole. 1:44:26 博：你说你将树视为一个整体， 这个我还不清楚。
1:44:30 K: The whole thing – to see something wholly, sir. 1:44:30 克：整体—— 完整地看什么，先生。
1:44:33 DB: Just see it all, right? 1:44:33 博：只是全都看到，对吗？
1:44:36 IS: I think we are in a slight language difficulty because we have no other possibilities. This, ‘I see as a whole’, really it means that the self or the fallacy of the self, has clearly been seen into and has broken down, because otherwise however much I see the tree as a whole, it is still my thought. 1:44:36 施：我认为我们 在语言上遇到了点困难， 因为我们 没有其他的可能性。 这个“我视为一个整体”， 实际上意味着我已经 看清了 自我的谬误， 并打破了自我， 因为否则无论 我如何将树视为一个整体， 它仍然是我的思想 。
1:45:02 K: That is the ultimate thing. 1:45:02 克：这是最终的事情。
1:45:04 IS: Yes. 1:45:04 施：是的。
1:45:05 K: But can you see your husband, your wife, or your girlfriend, as a whole being? Totally, you know. You can, can’t you? How does that happen when you can see somebody wholly? 1:45:05 克：但是你能把你的丈夫、 你的妻子或者你的女朋友 看作一个完整的人吗？ 看到全部，你知道。 你能，不是吗？ 你怎样才能完整地看到一个人？
1:45:33 IS: The tremendous – but not my – warmth. 1:45:33 施：巨大的 ——但不是我的——暖流。
1:45:37 K: No, no... 1:45:37 克：不，不……
1:45:42 IS: Warmth comes in. 1:45:42 施：感到一股暖流。
1:45:47 K: If you love that tree, you will see it wholly. 1:45:47 克：你爱那棵树， 你就会完整地看到它。
1:45:54 IS: But we have also to be careful what we mean by love. 1:45:54 施：但我们也必须留心， 我们说的爱是什么意思。
1:45:57 K: Keep it very simple, don’t intellectualise it for the moment, we’ll do it later. If I love somebody, love, not possessive, acquisitive, all the rest of that nonsense, if I love, the whole thing is there, the totality of that man or woman is there. So can I see myself wholly – myself being humanity? I am not different from humanity. I am not an individual. That’s all phoney. I am the rest of the world, I am the world. Can I see that as a whole? I am not a communist, sir, because the communists say that too, but I am not that stupid communists. 1:45:57 克：要非常简单， 目前不要把它弄成知识， 那是我们稍后做的事。 如果我爱一个人， 爱，而不是占有、贪婪， 等等无聊之举， 如果我爱， 整件事就都在那儿了， 整个那个男人 或女人就都在那儿了。 那么我能完整地看我自己吗 ——我自己是人类？ 我与人类没有什么不同。 我不是个体。 那完全是假的。 我就是世界， 我就是世界。 我能把世界视为一个整体吗？ 先生，我不是共产主义者， 因为共产主义者也这么说， 但我不是那些愚蠢的共产主义者。
1:46:58 WR: Why do you want to deny communism like that? 1:46:58 拉：你为什么要 这样否定共产主义？
1:47:01 K: No, no, no. 1:47:01 克：不，不，不。
1:47:04 WR: What is wrong if you are a communist? 1:47:04 拉：如果你是共产主义者， 那有什么问题吗？
1:47:06 K: No, you have misunderstood. Communists are full of theories and putting those theories into practice and shaping man according to a theory. I am not talking about that, leave that for the moment. I am sorry I brought it in. To look at myself – I can only see myself as a whole when I am actually the rest of mankind. 1:47:06 克：不，你误会了。 共产主义者有的是理论， 他们实践这些理论， 并根据理论塑造人。 我不准备说这个， 暂时先不谈这个。 很抱歉我提起这个来了。 看看我自己 ——只有当我实际上就是 其他人类时， 我才能把自己视为一个整体。
1:47:33 DB: You mean in essence, you mean that essentially I am the same as the whole. 1:47:33 博：你的意思是本质上， 你的意思是， 我本质上和整体是一样的。
1:47:39 K: Essentially, basically. 1:47:39 克：本质上，根本上。
1:47:41 DB: The basic qualities. 1:47:41 博：那些基本的性质。
1:47:43 K: I may have a long nose, or short nose, and crooked eyes, or blue eyes – I am not talking about that. 1:47:43 克：我可能长着长鼻子， 或短鼻子， 眼睛歪斜，或者蓝眼睛 ——我不是在谈论这些。
1:47:48 IS: A basic human being. 1:47:48 施：一个基本的人。
1:47:49 K: As a human being. Then there is no individual effort, nor collective effort. Right? 1:47:49 克：作为一个人。 那么就没有个人的努力， 也没有集体的努力。 对吗？
1:48:19 K: When one sees oneself as a whole, the parts disappear. But we think by collecting the parts we make the whole. So when I see myself as a whole, then the parts disappear, therefore the self is not. Sir, when I see that thing, that tree, completely... I can only see it completely if I don’t condemn, if I don’t say, ‘It’s my tree, it’s my garden’. Right? You understand what I am saying? 1:48:19 克：将自己视为整体后， 各个部分就消失了。 但我们认为，把各个部分 归拢起来就可以形成整体。 因此，我将自己视为一个整体， 然后各个部分就消失了， 因此就没有了自我。 先生，我看到那个东西、 那棵树，完整地看 我只有不谴责、不说“这是我的树， 我的花园”， 我才能完整地看到它。 对吗？ 你明白我在说什么吗？
1:49:15 WR: Yes, yes. 1:49:15 拉：是的，是的。
1:49:16 K: So when I love that tree, I see it as a whole. 1:49:16 克：所以我爱那棵树， 我才会把它看作一个整体。
1:49:35 DB: Would you say then that it is similar to all trees? Like saying, if I see myself as a whole, I am the same as all mankind. 1:49:35 博：那么你会说它 和所有的树都是相似的吗？ 就像是说， 如果我把自己看作一个整体， 我就和全人类一样。
1:49:48 K: So all trees I love. 1:49:48 克：于是我爱所有的树。
1:49:50 DB: Is that the same? 1:49:50 博：一样，是吗？
1:49:51 K: Of course, obviously. 1:49:51 克：当然，显然一样。
1:49:53 DB: It doesn’t depend on that single tree. It is not just this tree that you love. 1:49:53 博：这不依赖于那一棵树。 你爱的不仅仅是这棵树。
1:49:56 K: It isn’t that elm that I love. 1:49:56 克：我爱的不是那棵榆树。
1:49:58 DB: That is right here in this place. 1:49:58 博：那棵树正好 在这个地方。
1:49:59 K: Trees I love, whether they are in your garden, or my garden, or somewhere else. 1:49:59 克：我爱的是树木， 无论它们是在你的花园、 我的花园还是在别的地方。
1:50:03 DB: Wherever it is. 1:50:03 博：无论在哪里。
1:50:04 K: On the field. 1:50:04 克：田野里。
1:50:05 DB: So it doesn’t matter, the particulars. 1:50:05 博：所以细节并不重要。
1:50:07 K: That’s it. 1:50:07 克：就是这样。
1:50:09 IS: And it doesn’t matter which side it is because they are the same. I love the tree and see it whole because I love it, that doesn’t matter, the one and the other is the same. This is the same. 1:50:09 施：在哪边并不重要， 因为它们都是一样的。 我爱这棵树，并看到它的整体， 因为我爱它， 这并不重要， 一棵树和另一棵树是一样的。 这是一样的。
1:50:26 K: Look, I raised the question of seeing wholly because what is action which is not fragmented, not broken up as a business man, as the artist, as a lecturer, as a professor, as a priest – an action which is total. Don’t say, if the self is not, then you will have it. But I have a self, one is caught in the self; or rather the self is there. 1:50:26 克：听着，我提出了 整体看待的问题， 因为什么样的行动 不是分裂的， 没有分裂成商人、艺术家、 讲师、教授、牧师， 而是一种完整的行动。 不要说，没有自我， 你就会有完整的行动。 但是我有自我， 我受自我束缚；或者 更确切地说，自我就在那儿。
1:51:11 DB: But you are suggesting, see the self whole and then it won't be there. 1:51:11 博：但你是在建议， 看到自我的整体， 然后自我就不会存在了。
1:51:16 K: Yes, sir. 1:51:16 克：是的，先生。
1:51:21 DB: Therefore would you also say that you have to love the self? 1:51:21 博：因此你是不是也会说， 你必须爱自我？
1:51:26 K: That is a dangerous statement. I was going to make it and I stopped myself in time because that is what... 1:51:26 克：这个说法很危险。 我本打算说， 但我及时收住了， 因为这就是
1:51:33 DB: Some people have said. 1:51:33 博：有些人说过的。
1:51:35 K: Advertising – people say, love, reward yourself, love your hair, use this shampoo. 1:51:35 克：做广告——人们说， 要爱自己，奖励自己， 爱护你的头发，使用这款洗发水。
1:51:41 DB: Could you say instead you are mankind, you love mankind? 1:51:41 博：你会不会替换一个说法： 你是人类， 你要爱人类？
1:51:47 K: Ah, no. 1:51:47 克：啊，不会。
1:51:47 DB: That’s not true. 1:51:47 博：那不是真的。
1:51:48 K: Now, be careful. 1:51:48 克：现在，要小心。
1:51:49 DB: Because the analogy seems to be limited. 1:51:49 博：因为这个类比 似乎是有限的。
1:51:53 K: Analogies are limited. 1:51:53 克：各种类比都是有限的。
1:51:56 IS: So are words in themselves. 1:51:56 施：词语本身也是如此。
1:51:58 K: Any more questions, sir? We will stop unless you have any more questions. 1:51:58 克：先生，还有什么问题吗？ 要是没有其他问题， 我们就结束吧。
1:52:07 WR: There is no end to these questions, therefore let us finish today like that, unless the other people, Mr Narayan, other people... But you have answered all my questions, and thank you very much for all your very enlightening explanations. And also I must thank Mr Narayan for arranging this. 1:52:07 拉：这些问题没有结束， 那我们今天就这样， 结束吧， 除非其他人， 纳拉扬先生，其他人 但是您已经回答了 我所有问题， 非常感谢您这些 富于启发的解释 。 我也必须感谢 纳拉扬先生的悉心安排。
1:52:33 K: And all these people. 1:52:33 克：还有所有这些人。
1:52:36 WR: Of course, they are all one. 1:52:36 拉：当然，他们都是一体的。
1:52:38 K: No, no. 1:52:38 克：不，不。
1:52:41 WR: When I thank you or Narayan, or everybody else, I have thanked all the people. 1:52:41 拉：我感谢你、纳拉扬 或其他所有人， 就是感谢所有人。
1:52:46 K: No, you don’t thank me and therefore thank everybody, we are all thankful. 1:52:46 克：不，你不必感谢我， 然后感谢大家， 我们都心存感激。
1:52:51 WR: Yes, thankful to everybody. 1:52:51 拉：是的，感谢所有人。
1:52:53 IS: We all thank each other. 1:52:53 施：我们大家互相感谢。
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