BR84CRE - 我们能彻底清除恐惧吗？ home
与罗纳德·艾尔的谈话
布洛克伍德公园，英国
1984年6月24日

纯文本版本

0:14 E: I'd like to ask you about playfulness which matters to me more and more. I seem to… 0:14 艾尔：我想和你请教 关于玩儿的问题 这对我越来越重要。我好像
0:21 K: Playful? 0:21 克：玩儿？
0:22 E: Playfulness, being able to, knowing that if I tackle a piece of work with a certain solemnity, however serious I am, it sort of destroys itself, but if there is in it an element, in my approach, of playfulness, of letting it happen, ease… 0:22 艾：游戏，能够玩儿起来， 我知道如果我以某种严肃态度 处理一件工作， 无论我多严肃，那种态度 多少都会把自己破坏， 但是如果我处理问题的 态度包含一种玩儿的成份， 让事情轻易地发生，
0:36 K: I wonder what you mean by playfulness. 0:36 克：我想知道 你说的玩儿是什么意思。
0:38 E: I suppose over-solemnity is rather conceited. You have an idea that you would like to do this, you would like to finish it, you have the end in the beginning, you know what it is going to be. What I mean by playfulness is allowing for things to come in from the side which you hadn’t expected – thoughts, or notions. 0:38 艾：我觉得过于庄重 其实是自负。 你有一个想法， 想做这件事， 你想把那件事做成， 你在开始就想好了结果， 你知道事情将会是什么样子。 我所说的玩儿是指让事情 从你未曾预料到的方面出现 —— 比如思想，或观念。
0:58 K: Yes, you mean when you are working you are concentrated, and when that concentration is not focused then the other things… 0:58 克：是的，你的意思是 你在工作时 注意力很集中， 而注意力不集中时， 其他事情就会
1:09 E: I was brought up, like many of us, in a very puritanical way, brought up to believe that effort was a fine thing. And I believe I am having to learn that effort is a double-edged matter, and that it can be over-solemn, it can push you towards conclusions, it can blind you and deafen you to all sorts of things you should be hearing and seeing. And I need, I feel, to kind of sit back and play more. Does that… 1:09 艾：我跟很多人一样， 被以一种 非常严格的方式抚养大， 相信努力是件好事。 而我认为我现在不得不明白， 努力是一把双刃剑， 努力可能会过于严肃， 可能会把你推向结论， 可能会使你看不见听不着 你本应听到、看到的各种东西。 我感到自己需要 轻松地坐下来，多玩玩。 这
1:38 K: Letting other thoughts come in rather than have one continuous effort and thought. 1:38 克：让其他思绪涌入， 而不是努力只做一件事、 抱着一个想法，没完没了。
1:47 E: Yes, and let it organically shift so that it shapes itself organically, maybe in a direction you hadn’t intended. 1:47 艾：是的，并让事情自然转变， 这样它自己就会逐步成型， 也许是在你意想不到的方向上。
1:58 K: Would you say that distraction is necessary? It is that, I’m... 1:58 克：你认为分散注意力是必要的吗？ 就是说，我
2:07 E: Yes, it is distraction. It has to do with mindful distraction, it’s not merely being open to anything. 2:07 艾：是的，这是分散注意力。 这与 有意识地分散注意力有关， 而不仅仅是对什么 都容易接受。
2:16 K: Empty-minded. 2:16 克：让脑子放空。
2:20 E: That’s right. 2:20 艾：没错。
2:24 K: So, concentration, a sense of distraction of which you are aware. 2:24 克：因此，那也是专注， 你感觉在分散注意力， 而你又知道这件事。
2:31 E: That’s right. Feels quite important. 2:31 艾：没错。 感觉相当重要。
2:34 K: Yes. But when you are aware that it is distraction, is it distraction? 2:34 克：是的。 但是既然你知道 这是分散注意力了， 那还是分散注意力吗？
2:41 E: It is extremely subtle concentration perhaps. 2:41 艾：那也许是 极其难以察觉的专注。
2:44 K: That’s what I am asking. 2:44 克：我要问的就是这个。
2:46 E: Yes, I feel it to be. I feel that, it is connected with fear, I think. An element of fear, a fear you may go wrong or that something unwelcome may happen, it freezes you, you think you are concentrating but you are actually shutting out. Would you say that is correct? 2:46 艾：是的，我觉得是这样。 我觉得， 这与恐惧有关，我想。 有一种恐惧的因素， 害怕你可能会出错， 或者可能会 发生令人讨厌的事情， 这让你僵住了， 你以为自己在专注， 但实际上 你是在排除杂念。 你认为这么说对吗？
3:07 K: Only partly, isn’t it. Can we discuss what is concentration and then come to the other? What do we mean when we say 'concentrate'? To focus one’s thought. 3:07 克：只说对一部分，不是吗。 我们先讨论什么是专注， 然后再谈另一个问题，好吗？ 我们说的“专注”是什么意思？ 集中自己的思想。
3:32 E: Focus feels a bit positive as though your intention is maybe a little too much in it. 3:32 艾：专注有点积极的感觉， 好像是你在那里 投入的意愿可能有点儿太多了。
3:38 K: Yes. Concentrate on what one is doing. Don’t let anything come in. 3:38 克：是的。专注于 自己正在做的事情。 不让任何东西插进来。
3:45 E: To be available totally to what one is doing... 3:45 艾：完全投入到 自己正在做的事里
3:48 K: Yes, all right. 3:48 克：是的，好的。
3:50 E: ... is another way of putting it. 3:50 艾：……这是另一种说法。
3:53 K: What does that do when one is so centred, focused? Aren’t you shutting off every other form of thought, every other form of distraction, if we can use that word. So you build a wall around yourself and say, ‘No, please, don’t think of anything, let’s think about this’. 3:53 克：一个人如此集中精神、专注时， 那会带来什么效果？ 你不是把所有其他形式的思想， 所有其他分散注意力的形式——如果我们能用 这个词的话——都拒之门外了吗？ 。 所以你给自己建了一道围墙， 并说，“不，拜托， 什么都不要想， 我们来思考思考这个”。
4:28 E: There is a distinction between... When you did that gesture it was a slightly worried gesture, 'Don’t bother me, I am concentrating on this.' Now, that, I think – although I certainly do it quite a lot – it seems to me to have fear in it and to be probably not so useful as an openness to a thing which merely, quietly, presses other things to the side. 4:28 艾：这里有一个区别 你做那个手势时， 那是一种略带担忧的手势， “别打扰我，我正专心做这个。 ” 现在，我认为 ——尽管 我确实经常这样做—— 我看这种做法似乎带有恐惧成分， 并且可能不那么有用， 不如接受一件事， 也就是，只是安静地 将其他事推到一边。
4:54 K: I am not sure. 4:54 克：我不确定。
4:57 E: Ah! Tell me more. 4:57 艾：啊！多给我讲讲吧。
5:00 K: Could we begin by discussing what makes us concentrate: will, desire, an end to achieve, a motive, a direction, a purpose, an intensified desire, which is will, and say, ‘This I must do, this is necessary, I'll concentrate' and therefore I push aside every other thought that comes in. So I build a wall around myself for a moment – and there. So that is a form of resistance. That is a form of... May I put it differently? A self-centred attempt to hold something, which then becomes fear. 5:00 克：我们能不能先讨论一下, 是什么让我们集中精力的： 包括意志、欲望、 一个要达到的目标、 一个动机、一个方向、一个目的， 一种强烈的欲望，即意志， 并说：“这是我必须做的， 有必要这么做，我会集中精力” 因此，我把 所有其他想法都推到一边。 所以我暂时给自己 建了一道围墙 ——就在那儿。 这是一种抵抗形式。 这是一种形式的 我可以换个说法吗？ 一种想要抓住什么的 自我中心的企图， 这种企图随后变成了恐惧。
6:17 E: Yes, I see. It is quite certain that when you describe that, and the shutting out, I know that that is a prelude to failure. It’s the thing that happens before you can’t do it, isn't it? So I am interested in the further state of what is the state then in which you are really – we have to use ‘concentrate’ again, perhaps there is another word. 6:17 艾：是的，我明白。 毫无疑问， 你描述的那个情况 以及排除杂念的做法， 我知道那是失败的前奏。 那是你无法做到之前 发生的事，不是吗？ 所以我感兴趣的是 进一步的状态， 那是一种什么样的状态， 那时你真正 —— 我们不得不 再次使用“专注”一词， 或许还有另一个词可以使用。
6:46 K: There is. 6:46 克：有。
6:47 E: ...when you are really, freely open and available for things to come in. 6:47 艾：……那时你真正 自由开放，有空 让各种事物进来。
6:52 K: Another word: ‘attention’. 6:52 克：另一个词是“注意”。
6:53 E: Attention, more useful, yes. 6:53 艾：注意，更好，是的。
6:56 K: But that's much more complicated. Not 'one is available', but to attend. 6:56 克：但这要复杂得多。 不是“某人有空”， 而是注意。
7:10 E: In attention, do you allow yourself to be surprised by things that come in to you? 7:10 艾：在注意时， 你会允许自己 被猛然遇到的事物惊到吗？
7:20 K: I would like to discuss that a little bit. When one is attending, which means giving all your energy, all your sensitivity, your nervous organism as well, not only hearing, eyes, everything is tremendously alive. In that state of attention there is no centre as the ‘me’ attending. Therefore there is no fear in that. 7:20 克：我想稍微讨论一下。 当你注意时， 这意味着投入你的全部能量， 全部敏锐的感觉， 还包括你的整个神经系统， 不只是听觉、视觉， 而是一切都极其活跃。 在这种注意的状态下 是不存在“我”这个 正在注意的中心的。 因此，那里没有恐惧。
8:11 E: Ah, yes. 8:11 艾：啊，是的。
8:13 K: I don’t know if... 8:13 克：我不知道是否
8:15 E: I understand absolutely, yes. 8:15 艾：我完全理解，是的。
8:19 K: We have been trained from childhood to concentrate. Teachers say, ‘Concentrate. Don’t look out of the window’. And so there is a contradiction there, I want to look out – so fear begins. So effort. 8:19 克：我们从小就受到训练， 集中注意力。 老师说：“要专注。 别往窗外看。” 所以那里产生了矛盾， 我想向外看 ——于是我开始恐惧。 于是开始努力。
8:46 E: Why I started talking about playfulness was entirely in this area. That I am interested in that very necessary and fearless attention you may say, which is not unserious but it isn’t solemn. There’s a little line. 8:46 艾：我开始时谈玩儿， 完全是指这方面的事。 我对这个非常感兴趣， 可以说是那种非常必要 且无所畏惧的注意， 即不是不认真， 但也不是严肃。 这儿有一条小小的界线。
9:03 K: No, attention is attention. 9:03 克：不，注意就是注意。
9:05 E: It’s just where it is. 9:05 艾：它只是在它原来的地方。
9:07 K: Yes, sir. 9:07 克：是的，先生。
9:10 E: I'm interested in the word ‘play’ because it happens that professionally, all my life, as a child who never got tired of stories – that's been my burden and my pleasure – so I naturally get work in a theatre, and I tell stories to myself and others, or I write them. And then the word ‘play’, happens to be the word given to these events, and when I was in India making some films... 9:10 艾：我对“玩”这个词 很感兴趣， 因为在我整个职业生涯中， 作为一个对故事 从不厌倦的孩子 —— 这是我的负担和乐趣 —— 所以我自然而然地 在剧院找到一份工作，给自己、 给别人讲故事，或者写故事。 “玩（play）”这个词， 碰巧是用来指这些事件的， 我在印度拍电影时
9:35 K: You saw that statue? 9:35 克：你见到那个雕像了吗？
9:39 E: Which? 9:39 艾：哪个？
9:40 K: Of Siva playing. 9:40 克：湿婆在玩耍的那个。
9:40 E: Playing, absolutely. And Lila as a play, and I wanted you to talk to me about that because it seems wonderful that ‘play’ should actually be the word to describe the way things are. 9:40 艾：玩耍，没错。 而世界的运作就像一场戏， 我想让你和我谈谈这个， 因为应该用“玩” 这个词来说明 事物的运作方式， 这看起来太棒了。
9:54 K: That’s why... Dancing, playing football, playing golf and so on, why have those things become important? You play them, you dance, but I would say, released, away from concentration. 9:54 克：这就是为什么…… 跳舞、 踢足球、打高尔夫球，等等， 为什么这些事情 变得重要起来？ 你玩这些游戏，你跳舞， 但我会说，那是一种释放， 是从专注中解脱出来。
10:25 E: Yes. 10:25 艾：是的。
10:29 K: That’s what we are doing: work all day in an office, nine to five or whatever it is, and then go to a bar, drink, distracted, you know, cinema, this, that, the other, so there is tremendous contradiction in this. 10:29 克：这就是我们正在做的事： 整天在办公室工作， 朝九晚五或不管几点， 然后去酒吧，喝酒， 散散心，你知道的，看电影， 做这个，做那个，或者其他事， 所以这里存在着巨大的矛盾。
10:52 E: And none of it is play. 10:52 艾：但没有一个是玩儿。
10:54 K: None of it is play, it is a distraction. Distraction isn’t a play. 10:54 克：没有一个是玩儿， 这都是分散注意力。 分散注意力并不是玩儿。
11:01 E: I have a feeling... I don’t give myself programmes for what I am on earth for, but I give myself a little programme: that’s my job,it seems to me, to increase the amount of play. Does that make sense to you? To increase the possibility in my life, or even in things which could be drudgery, to avoid drudgery, that does mean altering your job. 11:01 艾：我有一种感觉 我不会给自己订计划， 我到这个世界是为了什么， 但我自己会做 一个小小的计划： 在我看来，更多地玩耍 就是我的工作， 你能理解吗？ 在我生活中增加这种 可能性，哪怕是可能很枯燥的事情， 也尽量避免单调乏味的苦差事， 这确实意味着换工作。
11:25 K: No, of course not. But suppose we drop the word ‘distraction’, ‘play’, for the moment, then what happens? 11:25 克：不，当然不是。 但假设我们暂时放下 “分散注意力”、“玩儿”这些词， 那么会发生什么？
11:42 E: How do you mean? 11:42 艾：你是什么意思呢？
11:44 K: I have been working in the factory and it is a terribly tiring, dirty, noisy, smelly job. I come home, or go to a bar, and there I relax, take a drink and all the rest of it, go home in that state of relaxation. The wife begins to quarrel, say something, I get irritated, and we keep that up. And in between, sex and all that, but I keep that going. So sex becomes a distraction. You follow? So the whole thing, the job, forces me to distraction – the night club, you know... 11:44 克：我一直在工厂工作， 工作非常累，肮脏、 嘈杂、臭气熏天。 我回到家，或者去酒吧， 在那里放松一下， 喝杯酒，等等 在那种放松的状态下， 我回到家。 妻子开始和我吵， 说了些什么， 我就发火了， 我们就这样过日子。 期间有性生活等等， 而我一直过那样的日子。 所以性成了一种 分散注意力的手段。 你明白吗？ 所以这整件事， 工作，迫使我分散注意力， —— 去夜总会，你知道的……
12:44 E: Yes, sure. I suppose I can look on areas of my life... I think of myself as very free-footed because I move from job to job, in another sense I move from distraction to distraction, I go to a situation for comfort – if you take on a new job it feels comfortable, temporarily, and eventually it becomes its own straightjacket, imprisons you, and you have to move from that prison, so I don’t know... there must be an alternative... 12:44 艾：是的，当然。 我想我可以看看 我的各方面生活 我认为我自己是很自由的， 因为我可以跳槽， 在另一种意义上， 我是变着花样分散注意力， 我到一个环境寻找舒适感 ——找了份新工作， 你暂时会感觉很舒服， 而最终这份工作成了 你自己的拘束衣，把你囚禁起来， 你又不得不离开这个囚笼， 所以我不知道…… 肯定有其他
13:14 K: In all these there is an element of fear. I am not doing my job properly, I drank too much, or sex too much, and my God, I am losing – you follow? – so there is this cycle of fear set going. 13:14 克：这些当中 都有恐惧的成分。 我没有做好工作， 我酒喝得太多， 或者纵欲过度，天哪，我在失去 ——你明白吗？ —— 于是这种恐惧会循环往复。
13:35 E: Now we can’t crack that cycle by thinking, cracking that cycle, can we. 13:35 艾：现在我们无法通过思考来 打破这种循环，对吗？
13:40 K: First of all, do we do anything that we love? 13:40 首先，我们做的哪件事 是我们喜欢的呢？
13:49 E: Not much. 13:49 艾：没有多少。
13:50 K: No. 13:50 克：没有。
13:51 E: If anything. 13:51 艾：如果有的话。
13:55 K: If any. One is forced by circumstances, specialised as a carpenter, or as a scientist, or a writer, you know all that. So gradually the brain itself becomes very, very narrow, limited. And that limitation itself becomes a bore. Right? And then break that, go and play, beer, sex, night clubs, golf, football. 13:55 克：如果有的话。 一个人为环境所迫， 专门当木工，或者当科学家， 或者当作家，这些你都知道。 所以慢慢地，大脑本身 变得非常非常狭隘、有限。 而这种局限本身就 令人乏味。 对吧？ 然后为了打破这种乏味， 去玩，喝啤酒，性生活， 夜总会、高尔夫、足球。
14:50 E: There is almost a process that for the moment of change it is almost as if a whiff of oxygen is given to you, a whiff of extra energy at the moment of change, and then as soon as you get into the next phase, beer or sex, or whatever, it hardens up and the oxygen is then drawn away. 14:50 艾：这几乎是这样一个过程， 在生活有所改变的时候， 你差不多像是 得到了一口氧气， 在改变的时候， 会感到一股额外的能量， 而一旦你进入下一阶段， 啤酒或性，或其他什么， 生活就僵硬起来， 然后氧气就被抽走了。
15:11 K: So is there an energy which is not wasted at all? And therefore no fear. 15:11 克：那么有没有一种能量 根本不会被浪费呢？ 因而也没有恐惧。
15:21 E: And can this energy ever be constantly available? 15:21 艾：这种能量可以一直用吗？
15:26 K: It is there. 15:26 克：它就在那儿。
15:26 E: Is it there? 15:26 艾：它就在那儿？
15:27 K: Of course. But I misuse it. I do something which I hate to do. I want to go on a lovely morning like this for a walk but my wife says let’s go to church. 15:27 克：当然。 但我滥用了它。 我做的是我讨厌的事。 我本想在这样美好的早晨去散步， 但我的妻子说，我们去教堂吧。
15:49 E: Yes, that’s right. Yes. So what are we frightened of, then? 15:49 艾：是的，没错。对。 那么，我们害怕什么呢？
15:55 K: That is what I wanted to ask: are we talking of the ending of fear and therefore living? Not, playing and not playing. 15:55 克：这就是我想问的： 我们在讨论结束恐惧， 从而真正地生活，是吗？ 而不是玩还是不玩。
16:19 E: Do you think we think we will die if we don’t have the next diversion? 16:19 艾：你是不是认为， 我们总觉得自己会死掉， 如果没有别的事情 可以转移注意力的话？
16:26 K: Of course. There is this terrible fear of death. 16:26 克：当然 我们怕死怕得要命。
16:33 E: In many subtle forms. 16:33 艾：害怕有许多微妙的形式。
16:40 K: Of course. I don’t know if you want to go into all that. 16:40 克：当然。 我不知道你是否想 探讨这些问题。
16:50 E: Please, I do, yes. 16:50 艾：请继续，我很愿意。
16:57 K: You see, that involves a becoming, not only physical becoming – I am weak but I will get strong, I haven’t run so much but I will – you follow? Get physically well, and make tremendous efforts towards that. They are all doing that now, that is the fashion. Has that spilt over into the psychological realm? I don’t know if... 16:57 克：你看，这涉及 一种成为什么的想法， 不仅仅是身体上的成为 ——我很虚弱，但我会强壮起来， 我不能跑那么远， 但我将来会——你明白吗？ 为了让身体健康， 付出巨大努力。 他们现在都在这么做， 这是时尚。 这种想法是否 也渗透到了心理领域？ 我不知道
17:38 E: Yes, we are not talking about the fear of death, we are talking about trying to avoid the cycle of life in a way. 17:38 艾：是的，我们谈的不是 对死亡的恐惧， 我们谈论的是尽量以某种方式 避免生命的轮回。
17:45 K: Therefore if I am afraid of life... So, the whole way of living has become a movement in fear: fear of death, fear of losing a job, fear of my wife or husband, I am not becoming a successful man – you follow? – what this whole way of living has become, step by step, leading to ultimate fear of death. 17:45 克：因此如果我害怕生活 于是，整个生活方式 就成了一种恐惧的运动： 对死亡的恐惧，对失业的 恐惧，对妻子或丈夫的恐惧， 我没有功成名就 ——你明白吗—— 这整个生活方式成了 最终，这一步步导致对死亡的恐惧。
18:25 E: Yes. Good. That’s wonderful, yes. All fear has these roots going back to fear of death. If fear is to be absent at any moment, it is some conquest of death. 18:25 艾：是的。不错。 太棒了。对。 所有恐惧的根源都可以 回溯到对死亡的恐惧。 任何时候，如果恐惧不复存在, 那就是对死亡的某种征服。
18:39 K: No, just a minute. If we understand living, the significance of living, not this perpetual battle, struggle, conflict, I must have, more, better, this constant measurement of myself with somebody else, he is famous, I must become famous, he is on the television, I am not. This terrible sense of poverty. 18:39 克：不，等一下。 如果我们理解了生活， 理解了生活的意义, 而不是这场无休止的战争、 斗争、冲突, 我必须拥有，更多，更好, 这样不断地将自己与他人相比较， 他很有名, 我也一定要出名, 他上电视了, 而我没有。 这种可怕的贫乏感。
19:22 E: Yes. 19:22 艾：是的。
19:29 K: And in the attempt to be rich there is the burden of fear. I may never get rich because there is somebody much richer. 19:29 克：试图富起来， 这种想法就包含着恐惧的重负。 我可能永远都富不起来， 因为总有人更有钱。
19:44 E: Sure. So in a sense I see that these little prisons we inhabit, one by one, these little distractions, are… the fact we know as we go into them that they are incomplete, there is something in us that knows that it won’t work. so that is the cause of great misery. At least if you go into a place where you think it may be nice you are not deceiving yourself until it becomes nasty. But there is something in us that knows that it doesn’t work. 19:44 艾：的确。 因此从某种意义上说，我看到 我们住的这些小监狱，一个接一个， 这些分散注意力的小手段 事实上，我们探询一下就知道， 这些手段是不完整的， 我们内心有某种感知， 知道那不会解决问题。 所以这是巨大痛苦的肇因。 至少，如果你走进一个地方， 你认为那里可能会很好， 你并没有欺骗自己， 情况是后来才变糟了。 但我们内心有一种感知， 知道那种手段行不通。
20:17 K: We know it doesn’t work but we go on with it. 20:17 克：我们知道行不通 但我们还是继续这样做。
20:20 E: Isn’t that strange? 20:20 艾：这不是很奇怪吗？
20:22 K: Like war, we know it is appalling, most wasteful, destructive. I don’t know, I heard the other day, you know when they had the D-day celebration, twenty thousand young men were killed on first… 20:22 克：就像战争, 我们知道战争很可怕, 极其浪费，极具破坏性。 我不知道， 前几天我听到， 你知道那天他们 举办诺曼底登陆日庆典, 有两万青年丧生， 在第一波
20:42 E: …first attack. 20:42 艾：……第一波进攻。
20:44 K: First attack. Twenty thousand! And the politicians… 20:44 克：第一波进攻。两万！ 而那些政治家…
20:55 E: The problem is that, now, if you express you wimped watching D-day celebration, or you pour scorn on these memorials, you're considered to be disrespectful to those who died, which is quite the opposite. It’s infuriating. 20:55 艾：现在的问题是， 你看登陆日庆典时 要是表现软弱, 或者对这些纪念活动 嗤之以鼻， 人们会认为你逝者不敬， 而实际上恰恰相反。 这真让人气愤。
21:10 K: It sounds so monstrous. 21:10 克：实在骇人听闻。
21:11 E: What you want to say is, because I love those who died I don’t want to have anything to do with the poppies. 21:11 艾：你想说的是, 因为我爱那些死去的人 所以我不想与罂粟花， 与纪念活动扯上关系。
21:24 E: For some period of years, when I was making films that had a name religion over them I began to find that religions frequently have been used as temporary havens from fear of death – obviously they have. But one can’t just stop there because anything, a house can be a religion in that sense, or a job, or a distraction, so the world isn’t quite so tidy, is it? If we could say the religions are doing it, we would feel free. But it isn’t the case. 21:24 艾：在过去的几年里， 我在拍摄 以宗教为主题的电影, 我开始发现 宗教经常被用作避难所， 用于暂时摆脱对死亡的恐惧—— 显然是这样。 但我们不能只停留在这个层面， 因为任何东西， 房子、工作、或者某种分心手段， 在这种意义上说，也是一种宗教， 所以这个世界并不那么简单， 不是吗？ 如果我们可以说， 宗教在这方面起了作用， 那么我们会感到轻松。 但事实并非如此。
21:54 K: So what are we talking about? 21:54 克：那么我们在谈什么？
21:57 E: Well, I am talking about fear of death. Because I feel it to be pervasive and I can't understand why, moment by moment in my life, there is some sort of censor or judge or... 21:57 艾：我在谈对死亡的恐惧。 因为我感觉死亡无处不在， 而且我无法理解为什么 在我生活的每一刻， 都有一种某种 审查员、法官或
22:13 K: Would you say death is part of play? 22:13 克：你认为 死亡是玩儿的一部分吗？
22:20 E: Absolutely. In the sense that good death is part of play. The good death is part of play. 22:20 艾：绝对是。 从某种意义上说， 好死是玩儿的一部分。 好死是玩儿的一部分。
22:29 K: What do you mean by ‘good death’? 22:29 克：你说的“好死” 是什么意思？
22:32 E: I just mean the possibility, if you climb a thing, and may fall off it and don’t care, there is the possibility of the fall, of the other side of the action. That’s what I mean by 'good death', the other half of the action is what I mean by 'good death'. 22:32 艾：我只是指可能性， 如果你爬到什么上去， 虽然可能会从上面摔下来， 而你不在乎， 你行动的另一面 是可能会掉下去， 这就是我说的 “好死”的意思， 行动的另一半， 就是我所说的“好死”的意思。
22:53 K: Say, for example, a very rich man who has got everything in life, writes books, and at the end of it he says, ‘I have had a jolly good life’, and dies. Right? And there are those who are paralysed or maimed and all those terrible cases that are more and more increasing in the world, to them death may be an extraordinary event. 22:53 克：举个例子，一个非常富有的人， 他得到了想要的一切， 他写了许多书，在最后他说： “我这辈子过得很愉快”， 然后死了。 对吧？ 然而也有那些瘫痪 或残疾的人， 世界上这种可怕的情况 越来越多， 对他们来说，死亡可能是 一件非同寻常的事件。
23:25 E: What may be an extraordinary event? 23:25 艾：什么可能是 非同寻常的事件？
23:28 K: The paralysed. The invalids, the incurables. Are we talking about fear of death, or fear of life which makes us fearful of death? 23:28 克：瘫痪的人、残疾人、 身患绝症的人。 我们谈的是对死亡的恐惧， 还是对生活的恐惧 使我们害怕死亡？
23:51 E: That’s more like it. 23:51 艾：更像是后者。
23:59 K: So, why are we afraid of life? What is the cause,what is the reason or many reasons, that makes one fearful of living? 23:59 克：那么，我们为什么害怕生活？ 原因是什么，是哪个或者哪些原因 让人害怕生活？
24:18 E: I wish I knew. 24:18 艾：我要是知道就好了。
24:20 K: One of – let’s discuss – one of it is from childhood I am forced to learn, memorise, and I am trained to meet problems. One’s brain has been conditioned to solve mathematical problems from childhood, college, university – problems, problems, problems. So the brain is conditioned to problems, and then it meets problems and its resolution of the problem is making the problem more complicated, and in the solution of it increase ten different other problems. That is what the politicians are doing. 24:20 克：其中一个——我们来讨论一下 ——其中一个来自童年。 我被迫学习，记忆， 我接受训练，解决各种问题。 我的大脑已经习惯于 解决各种数学问题， 从小时候起， 进学院，上大学—— 问题，问题，问题。 所以大脑习惯于解决问题， 然后它遇到了问题， 它去解决问题， 反而使问题更加复杂起来， 并在解决方案中 又增加了十个不同的问题。 这就是那些政客 正在做的事。
25:32 E: I get something quite good. Our education, as you describe it, is a series of trial runs for solving problems. But the problem when it arises is not the problem that you have done the trial run on, ever. 25:32 艾：我受到非常有益的启发。 正如你说的，我们的教育 是为解决问题搞的 一系列的试运行。 但是当问题出现时， 那不会是你试运行过的问题， 永远不会。
25:48 K: No, therefore what happens? 25:48 克：不会，那么会发生什么？
25:51 E: You apply the rules… 25:51 艾：你就应用一些规则……
25:52 K: The old rules. 25:52 克：旧的规则。
25:53 E: ...the rules you have learnt in the hope that they work… and they don’t. 25:53 艾：……你学到的规则， 希望它们能奏效 但它们不会奏效。
26:00 K: So, that is one of the real problems of human beings, to approach a problem without having problems at all. 26:00 克：所以，人类的 一个真正的问题就是， 能否不带着任何问题地 处理问题。
26:10 E: Very good. Yes, in fact, I suppose, the way you are taught defines the problem for you, but the problem may be quite different. So you solve the problems you've been taught to solve, you see as problems things that you've been taught to solve and may be much greater and more terrifying things are killing you. 26:10 艾：说的很好。 是的，事实上，我认为， 你受过什么样的教育， 决定了你遇到什么样的问题， 而那个问题可能是完全不同的。 所以你解决的是 你学过如何解决的问题， 你把各种事情都看作 你学过的、会处理的问题， 而也许更严重、 更可怕的事情正在杀死你。
26:32 K: Yes. And therefore you approach it with a brain that is trained to a problem. 26:32 克：是的。因此，你是用 一颗受到训练，去解决问题的 大脑去接近问题的。
26:39 E: Yes. 26:39 艾：是的。
26:42 K: Most religious people in the world believe in God. And to reach that godhead you must torture yourself, you must fast, you must undergo every kind of denial – no sex, don’t look around you, don’t feel anything, control your desires. You follow? And we are conditioned to that. So to reach God I go through all this. And you become a saint. 26:42 克：世界上大多数宗教人士 都相信上帝。 为了达到那种神性， 你必须折磨自己， 你必须禁食，你必须戒除 所有欲望 —— 不能有性行为， 不要东张西望， 不要感受任何东西， 要控制你的欲望。 你明白吗？ 我们习惯于这样做。 因此，为了到上帝那里去， 我遭受这些折磨。 然后你成了圣人。
27:26 E: Isn’t it crazy that in Christian scriptures, for instance, there is an enormous amount of stuff about people who were outsiders, about the prostitute and so on, but in the living, as the religion becomes hardened, institutionalised... 27:26 艾：这是不是很疯狂， 例如，在基督教经文中， 有很多关于基督教外的人、 妓女等等的内容，但在生活中， 随着宗教变得僵化、 制度化
27:44 K: They are crazy! So just let’s look at it for a minute. We are afraid of living because we have lost… Then we say, what is the significance of living, what’s the meaning of life. And not finding any, we invent: the philosophers come in, the specialists come in, and the psychologists come – you follow? – we invent. And that invention becomes our security. Then I hold to that. I'll fight for that, kill for that. 27:44 克：他们很疯狂！ 那么，我们看一下这个。 我们害怕生活， 因为我们失去了 然后我们说， 活着的意义是什么， 生命的意义是什么。 我们没有找到任何意义， 就开始杜撰： 那些哲学家就来了， 专家就来了， 心理学家也来了 ——你明白吗？ —— 我们会杜撰。 这种杜撰 成了我们的安全保障。 然后我抓住这个不放。 我会为此而战， 为此杀戮。
28:37 E: Like a poison 28:37 艾：像毒药一样
28:39 K: That’s it. 28:39 克：就是这样。 艾：就像人吸进的毒药一样。
28:39 E: Like a poison one’s taken in. 28:39 克：这就是正在发生的事情。
28:42 K: This is what's happening. 28:42 艾：你知道我 为什么在这里吗？
28:44 E: Do you know why I am here actually? I'll tell you a little story that happened last time. When I came here for the first time there was two hours to wait and I was put in a room and shown video tapes of you. And over two hours I conceived quite a strong dislike for you. 28:44 我给你讲个上次发生的小故事。 我第一次来这儿时， 有两个小时等待时间， 他们让我在一个房间 看你的录像带。 两个小时后， 我对你产生了强烈的厌恶。
29:02 K: Dislike? 29:02 克：厌恶？
29:02 E: Dislike. 29:02 艾：厌恶。
29:03 K: Good. 29:03 克：好。
29:05 E: A strong dislike. And then I went with my dislike to have lunch, and a voice behind me said, ‘You should try the grated carrot, it’s very good’, and that’s was you and we got on fine after that. You see, I was obviously manufacturing, I was educating myself in you, I was trying to see what you were about and getting all sorts of notions and the effect of them was deeply depressing. And yet carrots and your presence was fine, I had no problem with that. So I am extremely keen that anything we should say today should not be capable of giving any of that sort of feeling that we have anything of importance – although you never know. 29:05 艾：强烈的厌恶。 然后我带着这种情绪 吃午饭去了， 这时身后有个声音说： “你该尝尝胡萝卜碎， 非常好吃”， 那就是你， 然后我们相处得很好。 你看， 我显然是在制造看法， 我在通过你来教育我自己， 我想看看 你是干什么的， 并得到了各种概念， 这些东西令我深感沮丧。 而胡萝卜， 还有现场的你都很好， 我跟这些都没有问题。 因此，我非常希望 我们今天要说的任何事情 不应该给人任何 那种感觉， 觉得我们有什么重要 ——尽管你永远不知道。
29:54 K: We are discussing, aren’t we, why life has become so meaningless. The tree doesn’t ask that question. The tiger doesn’t ask that question. Right? It says, ‘I am living’. 29:54 克：我们是不是在讨论 为什么生活变得如此毫无意义。 树不会问这个问题。 老虎不会问这个问题。 对吗？ 它说，“我活着”。
30:22 E: So. 30:22 艾：是的。
30:29 K: So sir, if there is no conflict in living, I would never ask that question. I don’t know if I am conveying... 30:29 克：所以先生， 如果生活中毫无冲突， 我永远不会问 这个问题。 我不知道 我有没有讲出来
30:41 E: I didn’t understand the last sentence. 30:41 艾：最后一句话我没听懂。
30:43 K: If there is no conflict in one’s life, no conflict whatever, you would never ask that question. 30:43 克：如果人的生活中没有冲突， 没有任何冲突， 你永远不会问 这个问题。
30:49 E: The question of the meaningless of life. 30:49 艾：这个生活毫无意义的问题。
30:52 K: The meaning of it all. 30:52 克：这一切的意义。
30:54 E: It implies an idea of some perfection which you ought to be having. 30:54 艾：这暗示着这样一种想法， 觉得你应该拥有某种完美。
30:57 K: Yes. 30:57 克：是的。
30:58 E: Which is another fiction. So we sort of blunder from fiction to fiction. 30:58 艾：这是另一个幻想。 所以我们有点儿像是从一个幻想 跌跌撞撞跑到另一个幻想。
31:04 K: Illusion to illusion, fancied, and so on. 31:04 克：从幻觉到幻觉， 幻想，等等。
31:12 E: And I suppose the awful truth is that any system... 31:12 艾：我认为这个可怕的事实是， 任何体系
31:15 K: What makes human beings ask this question? Because their own life has no meaning – going to the office from nine o’clock to five o’clock until you are sixty, responsibilities, house, mortgage, insurance, and the conflict between relationships and so on. And at sixty five, seventy, eighty, you pop off. And then you say, what is the meaning of it all? 31:15 克：是什么让人类 问这个问题的？ 因为他们自己的生活 毫无意义 —— 朝九晚五去上班， 一直到六十岁， 各种责任，房屋， 抵押贷款，保险， 以及关系之间的 冲突等等。 而你在六十五、七十、 八十岁时就死了。 然后你说， 这一切的意义是什么？
31:58 E: What was it about. 31:58 艾：这是怎么回事。
32:10 K: Then there is death. Then you say, ‘I am going to die, I hope I will live next life’ – you follow? – that whole cycle begins. Hope, despair, depression, fear, I have achieved so much this life, and what does it mean, coming to the end of it all? I was told of a man, I met them both, who was enormously rich – enormous. His cupboards were filled with them – gold, paper money of every description, especially Swiss. And he was dying, he said, ‘As I can’t take it with me, keep it all open, keep all the cupboards open so that I can look at them as I am dying’. Just think of… 32:10 克：然后是死亡。 然后你说，“我要死了， 我希望能在来世继续生活。 ——你明白吗？ —— 整个循环开始了。 希望、绝望、沮丧、恐惧， 我这一生 取得了这么大的成就， 这意味着什么， 走到这一切的尽头？ 有人跟我讲过一个人的事， 我见过他们俩， 那人钱多极了 ——家财万贯。 他的橱柜里装满了钱 —— 黄金，各种 纸币，尤其是瑞士纸币。 他快死了，他说， “既然我带不走这些， 那就全都打开， 把所有橱柜都打开， 这样我就可以在死的时候 看着它们”。想想
33:26 E: Wonderful. What a wonderful last thought. Yes. I just have a feeling, when you talk about it, death, we know it is the obscenity, the thing we may not talk about, the last century it was sex, we can’t talk about death this century. I fell the absence of really living with it, sitting with it, just makes our situation so impossible. 33:26 艾：妙。 最后的想法真妙。是的。 你讲这个的时候， 我只是有一种感觉， 死亡，我们知道这事令人憎恶， 我们可能不会去谈， 上个世纪性是禁忌， 这个世纪是死亡，不能随便谈。 我感觉没有真正 和死亡共处，坐在一起， 只会让我们的情况 变得如此难以应付。
33:51 K: I am not sure, sir. After all death means total ending: all the memories, all the experience, the knowledge, the attachments, the fears, the sorrows, the anxieties – end. It is like somebody cutting all the thread which you have gathered to pieces – ending. We ought to discuss what is ending. Do we ever end? Or in the ending there is another continuity. 33:51 克：我不确定，先生。 毕竟， 死亡意味着彻底的终结： 所有记忆， 所有经历、知识、 执着、恐惧、 悲伤、焦虑 ——结束了。 就像有人把你收集的 所有线索 都剪成碎片一样 ——结束。 我们应该讨论一下 什么是结束。 我们结束过吗？ 还是说，我们的结束当中 包含另一种延续。
34:53 E: It seems unnecessary... I don’t know. I haven’t had ever much sense of starting, or not much sense of the time going on, and I have not much sense of my ending either, so I have every reason to believe that what is around will certainly – am I making sense? 34:53 艾：好像没必要…… 我不知道。 我从未有过什么开始的感觉， 也没有过多少时间流逝的感觉， 我也没有多少自己结束的感觉， 所以我有充分理由相信， 周围一切肯定会 ——我说明白了吗？
35:11 K: Oh, yes. What is ending? That is death. Right? I may believe I shall be born next life. 35:11 克：哦，是的。什么是结束？ 那就是死亡。 对吗？ 我可能相信 我会在来世出生。
35:28 E: Death is something observed by somebody else, surely. 35:28 艾：死亡是由别人观察到的， 一定是这样。
35:32 K: Not only, I want to believe it, it is comforting. 35:32 克：不仅如此，我愿意相信转世， 这很安慰人。
35:36 E: You want to think that it… 35:36 艾：你愿意认为……
35:38 K: I want to believe it. It gives me great comfort, say, at least I have another chance. 35:38 克：我愿意相信这个。 这给了我巨大的安慰，比如说， 至少我还有一次机会。
35:44 E: I see what you mean. 35:44 艾：我明白你的意思。
35:48 K: I mean the whole Asiatic world believes in reincarnation. And some of that is accepted here now, books are written, people say, I believe, etc. 35:48 克：我的意思是整个亚洲 都相信轮回。 现在，轮回的有些观点 在这里也为人接受了， 有人写这方面的书， 人们说，我相信，等等。
36:02 E: Well, the afterlife which is generally believed in this country, in this tradition. 36:02 艾：嗯，来世， 这个国家有这种 普遍相信来世的传统。
36:08 K: Yes, here, Christian world they believe in a different form, resurrection and so on. 36:08 克：是的，在这里， 基督教界，他们 以不同的形式相信 复活等等。
36:14 E: A subtle way of keeping you quiet about what is going on now. 36:14 艾：这是一种微妙的 让你对正在发生的事 保持缄默的办法。
36:19 K: Yes. So there is death, ending, and there is living. The living has become so... We don’t have to go into it, we know it very well. And there is that, waiting. Not waiting, it is there. We are all going to pop off, die. That’s the question. Right? There is a time interval. The time interval may be a hundred years, or five years, of fifty years, it is a time interval. And during that time interval I am living. I am acting, living, suffering, despair, all the rest of it. I haven’t solved this problem, this way of living, if there is a way of living in which there is no pain, there is no suffering – you follow? – and there is also the other, which is the ending of all this. Now, if there was no time interval, these two go together. 36:19 克：是的。 所以有死亡，有结束， 也有生活。 生活变得如此…… 我们不必细说这个， 我们非常清楚。 死亡就在那儿等着。 不是等着，它就在那儿。 我们都会咽气，都会死。 这就是问题所在。 对吗？ 有一个时间间隔。 时间间隔可能是一百年、 五年或五十年， 这是一个时间间隔。 在这段时间里， 我活着。 我做着各种事，生活着， 受苦、绝望，等等。 我还没有解决这个问题， 生活方式的问题， 有没有一种生活方式， 没有疼痛， 没有痛苦 ——你明白吗？ —— 也有另一种生活方式， 就是结束这一切。 现在，如果没有时间间隔， 生死就携手同行了。
37:53 E: Yes. 37:53 艾：是的。
38:00 K: Therefore which means ending everything every day. 38:00 克：因此，这意味着 每天把一切都结束。
38:07 E: Yes. 38:07 艾：是的。
38:10 K: Your attachment – this is my school, my... you follow? That makes the brain so small, limited. 38:10 克：结束你的执着—— 这是我的学校，我的……你明白吗？ 这会让大脑变得 如此渺小、有限。
38:23 E: But our means of attachment are so extraordinary, one can congratulate oneself on getting rid of attachment A, while B to Z line up to take over. 38:23 艾：但是我们用来执着的手段 如此让人惊奇， 你可以祝贺自己 摆脱了执着 A，这时执着B 到执着Z却在排队等着接管你呢。
38:34 K: Yes, sir. 38:34 克：是的，先生。
38:36 E: It is an extraordinary killing problem. 38:36 艾：这是个非同寻常的、 致命的问题。
38:38 K: So is it possible to live that way? 38:38 克：那么我们能那样生活吗？
38:46 E: What do you think? 38:46 艾：你怎么看？
38:49 K: Oh yes, I… That is the only way to live otherwise you go through hell. So that life is not... Rather life contains death, living is death. So every day, what you have collected, put it aside. If I am attached to this house, I know death says, ‘Old boy, you can’t. It is the end of you’, so I say, ‘I'll be free of attachment to this house’. Be not attached – you follow? 38:49 克：哦，能，我 这是唯一的生活方式， 否则你会生活在地狱里。 所以生活不是 相反，生命包含死亡， 活着就是死亡。 所以每一天， 无论你搜集了什么， 都把它放一边。 如果我执着于这所房子， 我知道死亡会说， “伙计，你不能。 你现在该结束了”， 所以我说，“我将摆脱 对这所房子的依恋“。 不执着——你明白吗？
39:45 E: Yes, unattached. 39:45 艾：是的，无执着。
39:47 K: You are completely free of it. 39:47 克：完全不受房子束缚。
39:49 E: And yet use it – this is the problem. Non-attachment can frequently go into forms of resistance. 39:49 艾：又使用房子—— 这就是问题所在。 不执着经常 演变成各种形式的抗拒。
39:57 K: So I am living in this house, I am responsible for this house, I am responsible what is happening here, but also I am going to die. So, while I am living that day I am fully responsible. 39:57 克：所以我现在住在这所房子里， 我对这所房子负责， 我对这里发生的一切负责， 与此同时，我也会死。 所以，在我活着的那一天， 我是完全负责任的。
40:19 E: You are not responsible for the day when you are not here. 40:19 艾：你不在这里， 就不对那一天负责。
40:27 K: Yes. 40:27 克：是的。
40:35 E: There must be something in us which thinks that life will hurt if we live it. 40:35 艾：我们身上一定有什么东西 认为要是真正去生活， 生活就会伤到你。
40:40 K: Life hurts. 40:40 克：生活会伤到你。
40:42 E: If we live it. 40:42 艾：真正去生活的话。 克：是的，先生。
40:42 K: Yes, sir. 40:42 艾：你看，心灵既会说，
40:44 E: You see, while the mind will say, I know that it is stupid to believe in whatever it is, relationships, or drink, or the job, to be a little haven, while the mind is saying that it must also subtly, with a quiet voice be saying, ‘But the alternative is more terrifying’. 40:44 我知道那是很愚蠢的， 不论相信的是什么， 人际关系也好，喝酒、工作也好， 以为那些是个小避风港， 而另一方面，心灵也在说， 一定也在用不易觉察的 声音轻轻说， “但另一种选择更可怕”。
41:09 K: You see, that’s why one has to enquire, is there a becoming and therefore the ending of becoming is fear. 41:09 克：你看，这就是为什么 我们必须探询， 有没有成为这回事， 因而，没有了成为的希望 就会导致恐惧。
41:24 E: The ending of becoming is fear, yes. 41:24 艾：无法成为就会带来恐惧，是的。
41:31 K: And is there psychological becoming at all? But there is a becoming in the world. I mean, one is apprenticed to a master carpenter and you gradually work with him till you become as good as him. 41:31 克：在心理上有成为什么这回事吗？ 但是世界上有一种成为。 我的意思是， 你给一位木匠大师当学徒， 你逐渐可以和他一起干活， 最后你达到他那个水平了。
41:56 K: That same attitude, or that same activity is spilled over, or extended into the other field , psychological, the inner field – I must become something. If I don’t, I am lost, I am failure, I am depressed, look, you have become something, I am nobody. 41:56 克：同样的态度， 或者同样的行为溢出 或扩展到了其他领域， 心理、内在领域 ——我必须成为什么。 如果没有，我就会失魂落魄， 我就是失败者，我就会沮丧， 看，你出人头地了， 而我什么都不是。
42:21 E: That implies the later stage is preferable to the earlier, that the master is preferable to the apprentice. I feel that the people I admire as well as having their calendar age have also stuck at another age. The people I really like are about three years old. 42:21 艾：这意味着后面阶段 要比前面阶段好， 当师傅比当徒弟好。 我觉得我敬佩的那些人， 他们既处于实际的年岁， 又停留在了另一个年龄。 我真正喜欢的人 大约是三岁的样子。
42:39 K: Children. 42:39 克：小孩儿。
42:40 E: Yes, but also people who have got that curious sort of wide-eyed thing. Though I am always suspicious at the thought of, building up to anything, or a growth to something. I have a feeling that it has already been neglected. Does that make sense, that it has already been here, reclaiming one’s childhood, in some way. And any way that one tries to devise to break out of one’s little prisons, because it is an idea, has the fear written into itself as an idea. 42:40 艾：是的，还有那些 睁大眼睛、心怀好奇的人。 不过，我总是对 通过积累、成长， 而成为什么的这种想法 持怀疑态度。 我有一种感觉， 那种东西已经被忽视了。 这么说有意义吗？ 就是那种东西已经在这儿， 想要以某种方式 找回自己的童年。 而无论人们想以何种方式 冲出自己的小牢笼， 因为那是个想法， 所以，那种想法本身 就包含着恐惧。
43:27 K: Idea – quite. So idea becomes fear. 43:27 克：想法——的确。 所以想法成了恐惧。
43:30 E: That’s right. And so the idea of liberation is fear. So we wait. 43:30 艾：没错。 所以想要解脱的想法 就是恐惧。 那我们就等着。
43:41 K: No. 43:41 克：不是。
43:42 E: What do we do then? 43:42 艾：那我们该怎么办？
43:43 K: Whether it is possible to end fear. 43:43 克：我们能否结束恐惧。
43:48 E: To end fear. Yes. 43:48 艾：结束恐惧。是的。
43:51 K: Not of a particular fear, but end fear, the whole tree of fear. And we are trying to trim the fears, you know. 43:51 克：不是某一种恐惧， 而是结束恐惧， 结束整个恐惧之树。 而我们却试图修剪 恐惧的枝桠，你知道。
44:06 E: What is the axe? How do you get at it? 44:06 艾：拿什么当斧头呢？ 你怎么去弄明白呢？
44:09 K: We will go into it. What is time? 44:09 克：我们会讨论一下。 什么是时间？
44:25 E: What is time. 44:25 艾：什么是时间。
44:30 K: Not by the watch, the clock, sun rising, sun setting. 44:30 克：不是手表、时钟的时间， 日出、日落的时间。
44:38 E: I think I can only understand time from something that is past. Is that right? 44:38 艾：我想我只能 根据过去的东西理解时间。 这么说对吗？
44:44 K: Sir, you have said it. So time is that which has happened yesterday… 44:44 克：先生，你说出来了。 所以时间就是昨天 发生的事情
44:50 E: That gives me the idea of time. 44:50 艾：这给了我 时间的概念。
44:53 K: Yes. That which has happened yesterday, or a thousand yesterdays, or forty five thousand years man is supposed to be on earth, the whole duration of forty five thousand years, is in the present. 44:53 克：是的。 昨天发生的事情， 或一千个昨天， 或者，人应该在 地球上生活四万五千年了， 整个四万五千年， 都在现在。
45:19 E: Thought is in the present and everything we know of it is in the present. 45:19 艾：思想就在现在， 我们所知道的一切 都在现在。
45:26 K: Yes, all that is in the present. And the future is the present. 45:26 克：是的，一切都在现在。 而未来就是现在。
45:35 E: A projection. We assume there is going to be one and we make it into a fiction. Sure. You can’t have it tomorrow, you have got to have it now. 45:35 艾：一个投射。我们假设 会有一个未来， 我们把未来变成幻想。 确实。你无法在明天拥有未来， 你必须现在就拥有。
45:44 K: No. The past, as we say, is now, in the present. 45:44 克：不。正如我们所说， 过去就是现在，就在现在。
45:50 E: That is how we must take it. 45:50 艾：我们必须这样对待。
45:52 K: That’s so, actuality. 45:52 克：事实就是这样。
45:53 E: Sure. 45:53 艾：当然。
45:55 K: I remember meeting you last year, so there is that duration of time, the recognition, if I recognise, and the future is the same as now because I will meet you again next year and say yes, hello, how are you and so on. 45:55 克：我记得去年见过你， 所以有那段时间， 我认出你来，如果我认出来的话， 而未来和现在一样， 因为我明年 会再见到你，说，你好， 喂，你好，等等。
46:18 E: Yes. 46:18 艾：是的。
46:19 K: So, the future is also now. So the present contains the past, the present and the future. So there is no future. I don’t know if you see… 46:19 克：所以，未来也是现在。 所以现在包含过去、 现在和未来。 所以没有未来。 我不知道你是否明白……
46:45 E: Yes, I do see what you mean. Yes. 46:45 艾：是的，我明白你的意思。是的。
46:47 K: The future is what you are now. 46:47 克：未来就是 你现在的样子。
46:51 E: It is amazing how we inhabit this future, invented future, with ill possibilities, and lord knows what. Yes. 46:51 艾：令人惊讶的是，我们怎么生活在 这种未来、杜撰的未来里， 担忧各种不测， 天知道还有什么。是的。
47:01 K: So the future is now. And if there is no breaking down of the ‘me’ now I will be tomorrow exactly the same. So I question whether there is any psychological evolution at all. You understand? There isn’t any. 47:01 克：所以未来就是现在。 如果现在没有打破这个“我”， 我明天还会完全一样。 所以我质疑 是否有心理进化这回事。 你明白吗？ 没有这回事。
47:33 E: Except some fiction, that somebody has invented in observing you. Yes. 47:33 艾：除了某些人观察自己 并虚构的 一些幻想。是的。
47:40 K: So I see... For me there is no ‘more’ or ‘better’ – better is future. 47:40 克：所以我明白了……对我来说， 没有“更多”或“更好” —— 更好就是未来。
47:51 E: Good, yes. 47:51 艾：好，对。
47:53 K: Better is measurement, what I should be. So ‘what I should be’ is an avoidance of what I am. So that creates a conflict. 47:53 克：更好就是衡量， 我应该如何。 所以“我应该如何” 是在回避我现在的样子。 所以这就造成了冲突。
48:15 E: Yes. 48:15 艾：是的。
48:18 K: So, if I see actually, not theoretically or sentimentally, the actual fact that the whole of time is now and therefore there is no becoming, no ideal to be reached. 48:18 克：所以，如果我实际看到， 而不是在理论上或一厢情愿地看到， “整个时间都是现在” 这个实际情况， 那么，我就没有成为什么的想法了， 没有要实现的理想了。
48:44 E: That is such a radical thought. The feeling about it that one has kind of heard it, it is not an unfamiliar thought but it is desperately unfamiliar, it challenges everything which one lives by. Tell me about this axe as well, I mean the… 48:44 艾：这是一个非常激进的想法。 我对此的感觉， 好像是听到过， 这个想法不陌生， 却又极其陌生， 它挑战了人赖以生存的一切观念。 也给我讲讲这把斧子吧， 我是说
49:02 K: I am coming… 49:02 克：我就要谈到
49:04 E: Because I want to take it away. 49:04 艾：因为我想带走这把斧子。
49:07 K: So what is change? If I change according to the future ideal, that ideal is projected by thought, which also implies time – thought is time. So if one really grasps the depth of this statement, or the feeling time is all now, and so therefore there is no tomorrow, in the sense, 'I will be something tomorrow'. So there is an ending to conflict. 49:07 克：那么什么是改变？ 如果我按照 未来的理想去改变， 这种理想 是由思想投射出来的， 这也意味着时间 ——思想就是时间。 因此，如果一个人 真正深刻领会了这句话， 或者深深地感觉到， 所有时间都是现在， 那么，就没有 “我明天会成为什么” 这种意义的明天。 这样，我就结束了冲突。
50:07 E: Yes. 50:07 艾：是的。
50:09 K: Which is an enormous factor. We have accepted conflict as a way of life. There is no conflict at all. That is, I have to understand change. I am this but if I don’t change I will be exactly tomorrow what I am now. So what is change? Is there psychological change at all? You understand? Or only ‘what is’, and the giving attention to ‘what is’ is the ending of ‘what is’. 50:09 克：冲突是一个重要因素。 我们接受冲突， 把冲突当成一种生活方式。 根本就没有冲突。 就是说，我必须 明白改变是怎么回事。 我就是这样的， 但如果我不改变， 我明天就会和现在 一模一样。 那么什么是改变呢？ 究竟有心理改变这回事吗？ 你明白吗？ 还是说，只有“实情”， 而关注“实情” 就是结束“实情”。
51:05 E: Yes. 51:05 艾：是的。
51:10 K: But one can’t give total attention to ‘what is’ when you have got an ideal. 51:10 克：但如果你有理想， 你就无法 全神贯注于“实情”。
51:17 E: Yes, that’s right. 51:17 艾：是的，没错。
51:23 K: I was asked to speak at the United Nations. It is a contradiction in terms, United Nations, first of all. And they say we must gather together, become friends, give all that blah, and it never takes place, because the principle is wrong – my country and your country, my god and your god. The Russians have their ideal and... So, if one really realises, feels the depth of this, that all time is now – the whole, it is like a lightening that change. 51:23 克：人家让我在联合国发言。 首先，联合国是个矛盾的名称。 他们说我们必须团结一心， 成为朋友，不惜一切，等等等等， 这种事永远不会发生， 因为原则错了 —— 我的国家、你的国家， 我的上帝、你的上帝。 苏联人 有他们的理想和 所以，如果你真正深刻意识到、 感受到这一点， 所有时间都是现在 ——是个整体，那就会像 一道闪电给我们带来改变。
52:24 E: When you say, all time is now, is ‘now’ always joyous? 52:24 艾：你说，所有时间都是现在， 那“现在”总是快乐的吗？
52:28 K: What? 52:28 克：什么？
52:30 E: Is ‘now’ always happy? 52:30 艾：“现在”总是快乐的吗？
52:32 K: Don’t use the word ‘happy’. 52:32 克：不要用“快乐”这个词。
52:35 E: All right. 52:35 艾：好的。
52:38 K: Why should it be happy? 52:38 克：为什么应该快乐？
52:39 E: No – quite. That’s my point. 52:39 艾：不——的确。这是我的观点。
52:43 K: Why should it be anything? 52:43 克：为什么要是什么呢？
52:47 E: Anything. Indeed. 52:47 艾：是什么都可以。确实。
52:51 K: You know, sir, there is something which we should go into, if we have time: what is to be nothing? Because we want to be something. The wanting is a sense of lacking. I haven’t got a good house, I want a better house. I don’t know all the knowledge of books, I must read. So there is this tremendous craving. And what is that craving for? I am not a philosopher, I am not talking… 52:51 克：你知道，先生，有些事情 我们应该讨论一下， 如果我们有时间的话： 什么叫一无所是？ 因为我们想要成为什么。 想要就是一种匮乏感。 我没有好房子， 我想要更好的房子。 我不懂所有书本知识， 我必须读书。 所以我有这种巨大的渴望。 这种渴望是什么？ 我不是哲学家， 我不是在讲
53:48 E: No, I know. 53:48 艾：不，我知道。
53:49 K: What are we craving for? We want peace. We crave for peace, and we live violently. 53:49 克：我们渴望什么？ 我们想要和平。 我们渴望和平， 却过着暴力的生活。
54:03 E: We always look for the sources of violence outside ourselves. 54:03 艾：我们总是在自己之外 寻找暴力的根源。
54:07 K: That’s it. And therefore we say, non-violence. While a human being is violent, living violently, fighting, quarrelling, in conflict, and he is working for peace. 54:07 克：就是这样。 于是，我们讲非暴力。 一个人很暴力， 在以暴力的方式生活， 在打架、争吵、冲突， 却又在为和平而努力。
54:30 E: I will tell you why ‘happy’. I wasn’t really talking about happy in the sense that would cause a problem. I just remember a big exhibition at Olympia, of Mind, Spirit and something or other, and there were many booths with various people, various religious persuasions, and they were all smiling. They were selling this sort of smile, this blissed-out quality, you know. And I ached to have one booth where everybody in it had a splitting headache. Do you know what I mean? And I just wanted to go to them and be there. Not because it was either bad or good, the very great difficulty is that anything you say can so easily be associated with extremely destructive thoughts, I mean, this is your burden. 54:30 艾：我告诉你为什么是“快乐”。 我其实不是在谈论快乐， 从某种意义上说， 快乐会导致问题。 我只记得在奥林匹亚的 一个大型展览上， 是关于思想、 精神什么的， 有很多摊位和形形色色的人， 五花八门的宗教信仰， 他们都面带微笑。 他们在兜售这种微笑， 兜售这种欣喜若狂的劲儿， 你知道的。 那时，我渴望有一个展位， 所有人在里面都会头痛欲裂。 你明白我的意思吗？ 我只是想到他们中间， 待在那里。 不是因为那样是好是坏， 非常大的困难在于， 无论你说什么 都很容易让人跟那些 极具破坏性的想法联系起来， 我的意思是，这是你的负担。
55:21 K: Yes. So sir, the word ‘change’ implies: I am this, I must be that. We are conditioned from childhood to that. 55:21 克：是的。 所以先生，“改变”这个词意味着： 我是这样的，我必须那样。 我们从小就习惯于这种思维。
55:46 E: To expect it. 55:46 艾：期待改变。
55:48 K: So heavily conditioned. I see a small car, I must have a bigger car. I see you on the television, and by God, why am I not there? 55:48 克：这种影响太严重了。 我看到一辆小汽车， 我必须有一辆大汽车。 我看到你上电视了，天哪， 我为什么没在那上面？
56:02 E: We should be there together, you see. 56:02 艾：我们应该一起上电视，你看。
56:05 K: You know, this tremendous craving, not just for publicity, but the inner craving for God, for illumination, for living a right life, that we must all be together. Why do we have such craving? 56:05 克：你知道，这种巨大的渴望， 不仅仅是为了引人注意， 而且还有内心里对上帝的渴望， 为了获得启示， 过上正确的生活， 我们必须全都在一起。 我们为什么会有这样的渴望？
56:41 E: I don’t know. There is a great unlovedness about it, a feeling of actually that you are not loved, and that possibly the larger car will put its arms round you in a way that the smaller car doesn’t, and will make up for this. It is a displaced feeling, of lack of affection, isn’t it? 56:41 艾：我不知道。 这里有一种极大的 被忽视的感觉， 一种实际上 没人爱你的感觉， 而大汽车 可能会把你搂在怀里， 以某种方式弥补了 小汽车在这方面的缺憾。 这是一种缺乏关爱导致的 情感移位，不是吗？
57:06 K: Partly. Is it in oneself the sense of insufficiency? I am not loved. 57:06 克：不完全是这样。 这是人自己身上的匮乏感吗？ 没人爱我。
57:21 E: That feels to me... quite real as a motive. 57:21 艾：我觉得…… 这作为动机是相当真实的。
57:23 K: I am not loved. I am not loved by that woman or by that man. And I must be loved by that man, or by that woman. But that leads to another very complex question: what is love? 57:23 克：没人爱我。 那个女人或那个男人不爱我。 我必须让那个男人， 或那个女人爱我。 但这引出了另一个非常 复杂的问题：什么是爱？
57:58 E: I would tend to say, possessiveness. 57:58 艾：我倾向于认为是占有欲。
58:00 K: Of course it is. Attachment, possessiveness, jealousy, sexual pleasure, desire for more… 58:00 克：当然是。 依恋、占有欲、嫉妒、 性愉悦、 渴望得到更多
58:22 E: It is also self-love, isn’t it. 58:22 艾：还有自爱，不是吗？
58:25 K: We call all that area love. 58:25 克：我们称这方面的东西为爱。
58:29 E: Yes. 58:29 艾：是的。
58:32 K: Some person told me, how can there be love without jealousy? Which means without hate. You follow? 58:32 克：有人告诉我， 没有嫉妒怎么会有爱呢？ 这意味着没有仇恨就没有爱。 你明白吗？
58:44 E: Sure, yes. Well, in the sense of possession there can’t. Yes. 58:44 艾：当然，明白。 嗯，在占有的意义上， 不可能有爱。是的。
58:52 K: And therefore one asks, what is the relationship between love and death? 58:52 克：所以我问，爱与死亡 是什么关系？
59:01 E: Love we are talking about, this possession? 59:01 艾：我们说的爱，是这种占有吗？
59:04 K: Possession, all that, the whole idea, in that one word so many things are contained. 59:04 克：占有，所有这些， 整个想法， 这一个词 包含了如此多的东西。
59:15 E: If you say perfect love casteth out fear, it is not perfect, is it? 59:15 艾：如果你说完美的爱 可以驱除恐惧， 那就不是完美的爱，对吗？
59:19 K: No, no, don't... 59:19 克：不，不，别这么说
59:20 E: No, exactly, I know, it’s a killer! 59:20 艾：对，没错，我知道， 这个说法有致命缺陷！
59:30 K: If you ask that question, sir, what is love, and what is that state of love with death? The love in the ordinary sense of that word. Is there any relationship at all? And if it has a relationship how does that show itself? How does that manifest itself? 59:30 克：如果你问这个问题， 先生，什么是爱， 还有，那种爱和死亡 在一起的状态是什么样的？ 指的是爱这个词的普通含义。 有什么关系吗？ 如果有关系， 那种关系本身是如何表现出来的？ 是如何体现出来的？
1:00:04 E: Love in the sense we are talking about it as a series of faulty insurance schemes against death, where the insurance house is really bound to collapse. But you still take out the insurance. 1:00:04 艾：我们谈的这个意义的爱， 是一系列死亡保险计划， 是错误的， 因为保险公司 其实也注定要倒闭的。 但你还是买保险。
1:00:21 K: First of all we never ask that question. 1:00:21 克：首先，我们从不问这个问题。
1:00:25 E: The connection between – no. As we are plunging into love we certainly don’t. 1:00:25 艾：两者的联系 —— 没有。 我们堕入情网时， 当然不会问。
1:00:32 K: Now if you ask that question, I put to you that question, if I may, what is your response to it? 1:00:32 克：现在如果你问这个问题， 我向你提出这个问题， 如果可以的话， 你对此有何回应？
1:00:41 E: To? 1:00:41 艾：对？
1:00:42 K: To that question. 1:00:42 克：对这个问题。 艾：联系。
1:00:42 E: The connection. 1:00:42 克：是的，有什么联系， 有什么关系？
1:00:44 K: Yes, what is the connection, what is relationship? Is there any relationship? If there is, what is its nature? 1:00:44 有什么关系吗？ 如果有，那是什么性质的关系？
1:00:59 E: Well it feels like an attempt to ward it off, to have it not happen. Possession in the terms we are talking about it is an attempt to have a permanence where there can be no permanence. Therefore it is an attempt to contradict the fact that things die. 1:00:59 艾：嗯，感觉像 是在试图避开死亡， 不让它发生。 我们现在谈的占有这个词， 是试图让不可能永恒的永恒。 因此，这是试图对抗 所有事物都会死亡这个事实。
1:01:15 K: Death is impermanent. 1:01:15 克：死亡是无常的。
1:01:17 E: Death is impermanet. Death is a permanent word to describe an impermanent happening. 1:01:17 艾：死亡是无常的。 死亡是一个固定的 用来描述无常的词。
1:01:22 K: Death is impermanent. And possessiveness, hoping for permanency. 1:01:22 克：死亡是无常的。 而占有，则希望永久。
1:01:30 E: Absolutely. An attempt to make it go on for ever, yes. It is curious how love poetry – cheap love poetry – has always got a doing everything 'for ever'. Good love poetry is usually about things collapsing. 1:01:30 艾：当然。试图 永远持续下去，是的。 真奇怪，爱情诗 ——廉价的爱情诗—— 总是无论做什么都是“永远”。 好的爱情诗通常 写的则是崩溃、瓦解。
1:01:45 K: What is the relationship? What is the relationship between darkness and light? 1:01:45 克：有什么关系？ 黑暗和光明有什么关系？
1:02:02 E: You can’t have one without the other. 1:02:02 艾：二者缺一不可。
1:02:05 K: No. I am asking the relationship between the two. 1:02:05 克：不。我问的是 二者的关系。
1:02:12 E: Could you tell me? 1:02:12 艾：你能告诉我吗？
1:02:14 K: That is, darkness, we know when there is no moonlight, no stars, nothing, dark in a forest – I have been like that – dark, absolute impenetrable darkness. And the sun comes up and everything is light. What is the relationship between that and that? 1:02:14 克：就是，黑暗， 我们知道没有月光、 没有星星、什么都没有的时候， 森林里一片黑暗 ——我遇到过——黑暗， 绝对的、无法穿透的黑暗。 而太阳升起时， 一切都是明亮的。 黑暗和光明是什么关系？
1:02:47 E: You tell me. 1:02:47 艾：你告诉我吧。
1:02:51 K: I don’t think there is any. 1:02:51 克：我认为没有。
1:02:54 E: Really? 1:02:54 艾：真的吗？
1:02:57 K: Light is light. Wait a minute, let me put it the other way. What is the relationship between good and bad? Is there a relationship at all? 1:02:57 克：光明就是光明。 等一下， 我换个说法吧。 好与坏有什么关系？ 有关系吗？
1:03:14 E: Before we do good and bad, if I could do dark and light. If I am asked to describe something, if I am asked to describe it, then I do need the presence of one before I can do the other. For instance, if I am describing this forest in which I can’t see a tree, that’s darkness, and when the light comes up the trees become visible. 1:03:14 艾：在我们说好坏之前， 如果我能说说黑暗和光明。 如果让我描述什么， 如果让我描述它， 那么我确实需要有一个在场， 然后才能描述另一个。 例如，如果我描述这片 我一棵树都看不到的森林， 那是黑暗， 天亮起来时， 就可以看到树木了。
1:03:38 K: So you are judging light and darkness according to your perception. 1:03:38 克：所以你是在根据你的感知 判断光明和黑暗。
1:03:44 E: Yes. That’s right. 1:03:44 艾：是的。没错。
1:03:46 K: Obviously. 1:03:46 克：显然是这样。
1:03:47 E: That’s right. But it is only when I have to describe it, that the relationship exists because of that. 1:03:47 艾：没错。 但只有当我不得不描述它时， 这种关系才会因此而存在。
1:03:53 K: But move a little further, deeper. What is the relationship between that which is good and that which is so-called evil or bad? Is the good born out of the bad? Because I know what is bad, or experience that which is painful, bad, etc., and so I am moving, or trying to get away from the bad to the good. 1:03:53 克：但是再往前深入一点。 好与所谓的恶或坏 有什么关系？ 好是从坏中诞生的吗？ 因为我知道什么是坏的， 什么是痛苦、糟糕的经历等等， 所以我在转移，或者努力 摆脱坏的，趋向好的。
1:04:34 E: I would use good or bad to describe very temporary effects – no? 1:04:34 艾：我会用好的或坏的 来描述非常短暂的效果 ——不是吗？
1:04:40 K: No. Is good temporary? 1:04:40 克：不。好的是短暂的吗？
1:04:42 E: Yes. 1:04:42 艾：是的。
1:04:44 K: That which is good, that which is beautiful, it is not temporary. 1:04:44 克：好的事物，美丽的事物， 那种事物不是暂时的。
1:04:51 E: Why not? 1:04:51 艾：为什么不是呢？
1:04:52 K: I will show it, let’s look at it for a minute. If the good, or any other word you'd like to use, is the outcome of the bad, has its roots in the bad, then it is not good, it is part of the bad. So every opposite has its roots in its own opposite. 1:04:52 克：我会讲给你看， 我们来审视一下这个问题。 如果好， 或者你想用的其它任何词， 是坏的结果， 扎根在坏里， 那么它就不是好， 而是坏的一部分。 因此，每个对立面都扎根在 自己的对立面里。
1:05:20 E: Good. I get that. 1:05:20 艾：不错。我明白了。
1:05:24 K: So is there a good which is not born out of the bad? 1:05:24 克：那么，有没有 不是从坏中诞生的好呢？
1:05:33 E: Not something that I could give that word to. I couldn’t because we have already used it. 1:05:33 艾：对于这种东西， 我没有词来表达。 我没有办法， 因为那个词我们已经用过了。
1:05:40 K: Give another word, it doesn’t matter. The good old-fashioned word, the good, the beautiful, the truth. Now, I question altogether whether there is an opposite at all. 1:05:40 克：换个词，没关系。 那些老派的词， 真、善、美。 现在，我质疑 究竟有没有对立面这回事。
1:06:00 E: To good in the sense we are talking. 1:06:00 艾：我们所说的好的对立面。
1:06:02 K: No, to opposite. 1:06:02 克：不，对立面。
1:06:02 E: Any opposite? 1:06:02 艾：任何对立面？
1:06:03 K: Any opposite. Of course there is man, woman, tall, short. 1:06:03 克：任何对立面。 当然有男有女， 有高有矮。
1:06:07 E: Sure. These are conveniences. 1:06:07 艾：当然。这些是为了一时方便。
1:06:10 K: Yes. Apart from the conveniences, is there something so absolute and not related to the relevant? 1:06:10 克：是的。除了一时方便， 有没有如此绝对的、 与相对无关的东西呢？
1:06:22 E: I would be always conditional myself about handling it. I couldn’t do it in any other way. I'd be frightened of people who do, because they become murderers. 1:06:22 艾：我自己处理这个总是有条件的。 我不能用任何其他方式去做。 我会害怕那些这样做的人， 因为他们会成为杀人犯。
1:06:31 K: Oh no, on the contrary. 1:06:31 克：哦，不，恰恰相反。
1:06:35 E: What do you mean? 1:06:35 艾：什么意思？
1:06:39 K: I mean, the freedom of goodness, not the misuse of freedom. The misuse of freedom is what is happening in the world. But freedom is good, it has the goodness quality in it. I don’t like to use the word ‘moral’, ‘virtue’, it has no meaning, but that sense of depth in it. 1:06:39 克：我的意思是， 善良所具有的自由， 不是滥用自由。 滥用自由是 世界上正在发生的事情。 但自由是好的， 那里面有善良的品质。 我不喜欢用“道德”、 “美德”这个词，那没有任何意义， 我指的是其中的深意。
1:07:22 E: We are somehow alongside fear again, and absence of fear. 1:07:22 艾：不知何故， 我们又碰到恐惧和没有恐惧 这样的问题了。
1:07:26 K: Of course. 1:07:26 克：当然。
1:07:28 E: Aren’t we? 1:07:28 艾：不是吗？
1:07:31 K: That’s why we said, is it possible to be free of fear totally? Not what might happen, of which I might be afraid, or that which has happened of which I am afraid, but these two elements, the past and the future, is now. Right? So, can the now, which is fear, be completely wiped away? 1:07:31 克：这就是为什么我们说， 我们可能完全没有恐惧吗？ 不是可能会发生什么， 我可能会害怕这个， 或者，我所害怕的 已经发生的事， 而是说，这两个因素， 过去和未来，就是现在。 对吗？ 那么，现在，也就是恐惧,， 能给彻底抹去吗？
1:08:16 E: Almost the presence of now, as you would handle it, is dependent on having these fictions of past and future with one. 1:08:16 艾：就像你会处理的那样， 现在的存在，差不多 要依赖于我们心里 有这些过去和未来的幻觉。
1:08:23 K: That’s right. 1:08:23 克：没错。
1:08:24 E: So even to talk about now is risky. 1:08:24 艾：所以，哪怕是谈论现在， 也是有风险的。
1:08:27 K: Yes, but one has to use that word ‘present’, ‘now’. You are sitting there, I am sitting here, that’s now. 1:08:27 克：是的，但我们必须使用 “现在”这个词。 你坐在那儿，我坐在这儿， 这就是现在。
1:08:36 E: But you have got to get the scalpel further. 1:08:36 艾：但你必须把手术刀挪远些。
1:08:39 K: Of course, you have to have a little bit of subtlety in this… 1:08:39 克：当然，在这个问题上， 你必须细致点
1:08:44 E: Yes. That’s right. But the fear remains until the knife has gone much further… 1:08:44 艾：是的。没错。 但恐惧仍然存在， 除非把刀子再拿远些
1:08:56 K: That’s it. 1:08:56 克：就是这样。
1:08:57 E: …The now. 1:08:57 艾：……现在。
1:08:58 K: Yes, of course. So what is fear? Not theoretically, actually in my heart, in one’s brain, what is fear, how does it come? What is the source of it, the root of it, the beginning of it? 1:08:58 克：是的，当然。 那么什么是恐惧呢？ 不是理论上，而是实际上在我心里， 在我脑子里，什么是恐惧， 恐惧是怎么来的？ 其源头、根源、开端是什么？
1:09:20 E: Roughly, off the top of my head, it is something to do with not being in the right place, a feeling of not filling where you should be. An ‘ought’ is involved in fear; you ought to be this shape, that shape. 1:09:20 艾：粗略地说， 我现在能想到的就是， 这与没有处在 正确的位置有关， 有一种你本应是什么样子， 却没有实现的感觉。 恐惧包含着“应该”; 你应该是这个样子、 那个样子的。
1:09:33 K: We have said that. The ought to be, I will... 1:09:33 克：这个我们说过了。 应该如何，我将如何
1:09:36 E: You are talking about another fear. 1:09:36 艾：你说的是另一种恐惧。
1:09:38 K: Fear. All this is fear. What is the root of it? We said fear is like a vast tree. There is a marvellous tree here, an oak, it covers the ground, an acre. Now, our fear is like that, but the root of that oak is there, in the centre, the branches are enormous. 1:09:38 克：恐惧。这些都是恐惧。 其根源是什么？ 我们说 恐惧就像一棵大树。 这里有棵不一般的大树， 是棵橡树， 树荫占地一英亩。 而我们的恐惧就像这样， 但那棵橡树的根 就在那儿，在中心， 地上部分则枝繁叶茂、非常壮观。
1:10:11 E: What is the root? How would you describe the root? You’re asking me to describe it. 1:10:11 艾：根源是什么？ 你会如何描述树根？ 你是想让我描述一下。
1:10:16 K: Not describe. The fact of it is time and thought. 1:10:16 克：不是描述。 恐惧的真相就是时间和思想。
1:10:32 E: We can play with thought but not... 1:10:32 艾：我们可以玩玩思想， 但不能
1:10:35 K: No, time and thought are the root of fear. We are trying to understand whether it is possible to be free of fear, totally, completely – psychologically, we are talking about. And the root of that, the beginning from which all the oak tree grows, becomes enormous, the root of it is time and thought. Time being, 'I will be', if I am not, I am frightened. Thought says, I have been, and my God, I hope I will be. 1:10:35 克：不，时间和思想 是恐惧的根源。 我们正试图理解 我们能否完全彻底 摆脱恐惧 ——我们谈的是 心理方面的事。 而其根源、开端， 整个橡树都是从那里长出来， 长成参天大树的， 其根源就是时间和思想。 时间就是，“我将如何”， 如果没有，我就会害怕。 思想说，我曾经是什么样的， 我的上帝，我希望我会如何如何。
1:11:21 E: Is there a sort of fear that is not connected with thought? Or is all fear connected with thought? 1:11:21 艾：有没有一种 与思想无关的恐惧？ 还是说，所有恐惧 都与思想有关？
1:11:26 K: It is all connected with thought. Of course. 1:11:26 克：都与思想有关。当然。
1:11:30 E: If suddenly something happens to you which terrifies the organism... 1:11:30 艾：如果你突然遭遇什么事， 这会把身体吓坏的
1:11:35 K: At that second there is no fear, but then thought comes in. 1:11:35 克：在那一刻，你并没有恐惧， 但随后思想会介入。
1:11:38 E: The intervention of thought, however rapidly, beyond the speed of light, and then the reactive fear. Yes, yes. Good. 1:11:38 艾：思想的干预，无论多么迅速， 超越光速， 然后发生的是事后反应式的恐惧。 对，对。好的。
1:11:51 K: Then the question arises: can thought, in certain areas, be active – writing a letter, talking and so on – active, fully active, and other areas not at all, in the psychological world, not at all. 1:11:51 克：那么问题来了： 思想能否，在特定领域活跃 —— 写信，谈话等等 —— 活跃，完全活跃， 而在其他领域则根本不活跃， 在心理领域根本不活跃。
1:12:25 E: Discursive thought I have never understood at all. I have never had any feeling for, actually, even putting sentences together. I have always worked… I’ve always felt that the things that have ever made sense to me have come like that, it’s like sudden flashes of a thing. 1:12:25 艾：不着边际的思想 我从来就根本没搞明白过。 实际上，我从来没有 任何感觉， 哪怕是把句子组织起来。 我一直在努力 我一直觉得那些 对我来说有意义的事情 出现时， 就像什么突然闪过一样。
1:12:38 K: Our thought is linear. 1:12:38 克：我们的想法是线性的。
1:12:40 E: Well we are trained in a linear way, but I have never felt comfortable. 1:12:40 艾：嗯，我们是以线性方式受训练的， 但我从来没有 感到舒服过。
1:12:44 K: We are trained, like the Chinese, it is still linear. 1:12:44 克：我们受过的训练， 跟中国人一样，依然是线性的。
1:12:50 E: It is still linear. That’s right, yes. That’s the schooling, that’s where you pass or fail your exam. 1:12:50 艾：依然是线性的。 没错，是的。 这就是学校教育， 这就是你考试通没通过的地方。
1:12:55 K: Thinking is a series of connections, associations, always… 1:12:55 克：思维是一系列的联系、联想、 总是
1:13:05 E: So you are running a school based on thought to stop thinking. 1:13:05 艾：所以你正在办一所 基于停止思考这种理念的学校。
1:13:09 K: No, no. Thought is necessary in certain areas, absolutely. That requires a great deal of attention, a great deal of knowledge, a great deal of capacity, skill, and ingenuity, invention. 1:13:09 克：不，不。 在某些领域， 思考是绝对必要的。 这需要大量的关注、 大量的知识， 需要很强的能力、技能， 以及聪明才智、创造发明。
1:13:30 E: Sure. 1:13:30 艾：确实。
1:13:34 K: And is it that same activity has spilled over or extended into the other area? 1:13:34 克：是不是同样的活动 已经外溢 或扩展到了其他领域？
1:13:42 E: Very good, yes, that’s excellent. To know it where it is useful, to have it as a useful tool. 1:13:42 艾：非常好，是的， 好极了。 要知道思想在哪里有用， 要把它当作一个有用的工具。
1:13:53 K: If I understand, really see the depth of it, seriousness of it, then I would question why is it thought is always moving, active, in the psychological world. The psychological world is the ‘me’, my consciousness, my failure, my success, my reputation, my ‘I must be’, ‘I must not be’, my faith, my belief, my dogma, my religious attitude, politics, fear, pains, pleasure, suffering – all that is me. All that is memory. So all that is memory, 'me' is memory. 1:13:53 克：如果我理解了，真的看到了 它的深度，它的严肃性， 那我就会质疑 为什么思想在心理领域 不停地运动，非常活跃。 这个心理领域就是“我”， 我的意识、我的失败、 我的成功、我的名声， 我的“我必须如何”， “我一定不能如何”， 我的信念、我的信仰、我的教条、 我的宗教态度、 政治、恐惧、痛苦、 快乐、痛苦 ——这一切都是我。 这一切都是记忆。 所以这些都是记忆， “我”就是记忆。
1:14:56 E: The ‘me’, if you are brought up in, a lot of us are in this country. 1:14:56 艾：“我”，如果你是在， 很多人都是在这个国家长大的。
1:15:00 K: All over the world. 1:15:00 克：全世界。
1:15:02 E: Maybe, in a sort of Bunyan tradition of you hold your own, you are responsible for yourself, There is an element which makes sense, there is also an element which is quite destructive. Somebody told me a story, I think in Japan, they said it was a possible way of life, a man running away from his own shadow, who realised all he had to do was to hop under a tree and the shadow disappeared. I remember feeling immediately very methodistical about that: 'you may not get away from your shadow.' But obviously you may and must. 1:15:02 艾：也许， 在一种布道者班扬的传统中 你做好你自己， 你对自己负责， 这里有一个因素有意义， 还有一个因素 相当具有破坏性。 有人给我讲了一个故事， 我想是在日本， 他们说这是一种 可行的生活方式， 一个想要甩掉自己影子的人， 他意识到他要做的 就是跳到树下， 影子就消失了。 我记得最初听到 “你可能无法摆脱 你的影子” 这句话时，我立即 感觉这是非常有条理的。 但显然，那是你可以 而且必须做的。
1:15:38 K: So thought and time are the root of fear. Why does thought come into this area, realm of the psyche? 1:15:38 克：所以思想和时间 是恐惧的根源。 为什么思想 会进入这个领域， 进入心灵领域？
1:16:05 E: I wonder. I mean, it appears to stop danger because when you have a thought it is like asbestos to hold something hot, you have the illusion that with the thought you can control something which in its uncontrolled state might be overwhelming. 1:16:05 艾：我想知道。 我的意思是， 思想似乎可以阻止危险， 因为当你有一个想法时， 那就像用石棉去拿烫手的东西一样， 你有这样一种错觉， 用这个想法你可以控制那些 在不受控制状态下 可能无法承受的事情。
1:16:28 K: So there is the thinker who holds something hot and the thought that says, don’t hold it. 1:16:28 克：所以有思想者， 拿着烫手的东西， 还有那个思想， 说，不要碰它。
1:16:39 E: Yes. Beware. 1:16:39 艾：是的。小心。
1:16:43 K: So there are two separate entities: the thinker and the object of which you think. Now what is the thinker? 1:16:43 克：所以有两个独立的实体： 思想者和你思考的对象。 那么什么是思想者？
1:17:01 E: A thought. 1:17:01 艾：一个想法。
1:17:03 K: Right? 1:17:03 克：对吗？
1:17:04 E: Yes. 1:17:04 艾：是的。
1:17:05 K: Thought says, I am the thinker separate from... 1:17:05 克：思想说， 我是思想者，不同于
1:17:12 E: Yes. 1:17:12 艾：是的。
1:17:17 K: But to realise that the observer, the thinker, the experiencer, is the experience, is the object they are one, they are not separate. Sir, that means a tremendous revolution, inwardly, psychologically. Which means when there is no division, there is no conflict. There is only that fact. When you give attention to the fact, the fact is burnt away. But thought is kept to plant a tree. 1:17:17 克：但是要意识到观察者、 思想者、体验者 就是经验，就是对象， 他们是一体的， 不是分开的。 先生，这意味着 内在上、心理上的 一场巨大变革。 这意味着，没有分裂， 就没有冲突。 只有这个事实。 当你注意事实时， 事实就灰飞烟灭了。 但需要留着思想来种树。
1:18:04 E: Yes, of course. 1:18:04 艾：是的，当然。
1:18:07 K: Bring that flower. 1:18:07 克：把那朵花拿过来。
1:18:10 E: Makes sense, yes. 1:18:10 艾：有道理，是的。
1:18:14 K: So if you give attention to that, then that will never create problems. 1:18:14 克：所以如果你注意这件事， 那么，这件事永远不会造成问题。
1:18:25 E: Yes, I understand. You see, everything we are saying is bringing something to a T-junction. 1:18:25 艾：是的，我明白。你看， 我们所说的一切 正在将某件事 带到一个丁字路口。
1:18:31 K: Yes, sir. 1:18:31 克：是的，先生。
1:18:33 E: Because it is uncomfortable for us to think that you have to shed various ways of handling the world. 1:18:33 艾：因为想到这些 对我们来说是很不舒服的， 也就是，你必须摆脱你原来应对 这个世界的各种方式。
1:18:40 K: Somebody said, you have to burn your icons. 1:18:40 克：有人说， 你必须烧掉你那些圣像。
1:18:43 E: Burn you icons, indeed. Yes. And that’s uncomfortable, and there’s no way past it. 1:18:43 艾：烧掉你那些圣像，确实。 是的。 这很不舒服， 而且无法避免。
1:18:54 K: So, when you burn your icons, death is. You understand? 1:18:54 克：所以，烧掉你那些圣像， 死亡就在了。 你明白吗？
1:19:03 E: Yes. 1:19:03 艾：是的。
1:19:08 K: And also, sir, I don’t know if you have gone into this, not theoretically but actually, what is creation then? Not invention, I am not talking of invention. Invention is born out of knowledge. The scientist can invent more atom bombs, or something new, but it is always born out of knowledge. 1:19:08 克：还有，先生，我不知道 你是否探究过这个问题， 不是理论上，而是实际上， 那么，什么是创造呢？ 不是发明， 我不是在谈发明。 发明源于知识。 科学家可以发明 更多新型原子弹， 或者某种新的东西， 但那总是 从知识中诞生的。
1:19:47 E: What is creation in what sense? 1:19:47 艾：什么意义上的创造？
1:19:48 K: Creation which is not born out of knowledge. Because knowledge is limited. 1:19:48 克：不是诞生于知识的创造。 因为知识是有限的。
1:20:00 E: Limited, yes indeed. 1:20:00 艾：有限，的确。
1:20:02 K: Now or in the future. 1:20:02 克：现在或将来。
1:20:04 E: And it is pre-limited... 1:20:04 艾：预先限定的就是有限的……
1:20:06 K: It is limited. 1:20:06 克：知识是有限的。
1:20:09 K: If creation is born of knowledge it's not creation, it is invention. 1:20:09 克：如果创造源于知识， 这就不是创造，而是发明。
1:20:22 E: Certainly even, in whatever I have done, my humdrum ways, there have been odd moments, maybe writing something where certainly it was not any form of pre-knowledge which created it, but when my boundaries seemed almost to be illusory, and I was not as confined for some reason, and something else was fed in, then you write something or you do something which has a muscle which is not yours. 1:20:22 艾：当然，甚至 不管我单调乏味地 做什么，在一些奇怪的时刻， 我也许会写出些东西， 但写这些东西的 肯定不是任何形式的 先验知识，而是 当由于某种原因， 我看到我的界限 几乎是虚幻的， 因而不那么受拘束时， 我就会摄取到一些别的养分， 然后你就会写些东西 或做些事情， 其中有着一份 不属于你的力量。
1:20:50 K: No. Must creation always be expressed? You understand? 1:20:50 克：不，创造一定总得 表达出来吗？你明白吗？
1:20:59 E: Sorry – must… 1:20:59 艾：对不起——一定
1:21:00 K: Must it always be expressed? Put it into writing, in a sculpture, in doing a painting. You follow? 1:21:00 克：一定总得表达出来吗？ 用文字， 用雕塑，用画画表达出来。 你明白吗？
1:21:08 E: Yes. I don’t see why it should at all have to be expressed. 1:21:08 艾：是的。我看不出 为什么必须表达。
1:21:15 K: So, if we both of us see the fact that creation cannot be born out of knowledge... 1:21:15 克：所以，如果我们都看到 这个事实：创造无法 从知识中产生
1:21:22 E: Yes, that’s for sure. 1:21:22 艾：是的，这是肯定的。
1:21:25 K: Born out of knowledge is vast invention, of various kinds, at various levels and so on. But is there a state of mind, brain, or mind, where knowledge is not? 1:21:25 克：从知识中诞生的是 伟大的发明， 各种各样，各种层次，等等。 但是有没有一种心灵状态， 大脑或心灵的状态， 在这种状态中，没有知识在？
1:21:46 E: Where creation is. 1:21:46 艾：而有创造在。
1:21:48 K: Where creation is. You understand what we are saying? 1:21:48 克：而有创造在。 你明白我们在说什么吗？
1:22:00 E: Well I think...there must... There is, I am sure there is. Well, I lived. Why should one have to write it, that seems an awfully... 1:22:00 艾：嗯，我认为…… 必须……有， 我相信有。 嗯，我生活过。 我为什么必须写这个， 这看起来非常
1:22:16 K: No. I don’t know. First of all, am I, who have been writing, talking, or inventing, and call my invention creation – I paint a picture and say it is a marvellous creation. Leonardo paints something and I say, ‘What a marvellous creation that is.' We have used that word both as an invention and also... 1:22:16 克：不。我不知道。 首先，我， 一直在写作、谈话 或者搞发明的这个人， 会把我的发明叫做创造吗 —— 我画了一幅画，并说， 这是了不起的创造。 莱昂纳多 画了什么画，我说， “这是多么了不起的创造啊。 ” 我们将这个词 既用于发明，也用于
1:22:59 E: We do. It is an end stop, it’s a product, we use it as a product. Thus when you get sketches by, say, a master, – we may as well use their example – a sketch, an incomplete thing, somehow makes you tingle in a way that may be the finished thing doesn’t. 1:22:59 艾：是这样。这是一个终点， 这是个产品， 我们将其用作产品。 因此，你得到，比如说， 一位大师的草图， —— 我们不妨使用 他们的例子 —— 一张草图， 一个未完成的作品， 让你莫名地激动不已， 在某种程度上， 完成的作品则不会。
1:23:21 K: Of course. 1:23:21 克：当然。
1:23:22 E: Because the patron, the man who's paid for the picture comes into it frequently at the stage when it has to be completed. Whereas the energy going on in the making of it, didn’t have to push it to that conclusion and it is present in an early stage. 1:23:22 艾：因为赞助人， 为画作付费的人， 会在必须完成的阶段 经常跑来看。 而艺术家则不必投入 所有能量来完成作品， 不必非得使其具有 那种激动人心的力量， 而那在早期阶段则是存在的。
1:23:43 K: You see, this has been one of the questions that have been asked by the most ancient people, that is, is there a state of mind, where knowledge ends? Though it is useful in other directions, don’t let’s… Complete ending of it. Then only there is something new. And that thing is creation. That is creation. You understand? 1:23:43 克：你看，这是远古时期的 人问过的一个问题， 即，是否存在这样一种心灵状态， 在这种状态下，知识结束了？ 虽然知识在其他 方面很有用，但我们不要 完全结束知识。 唯有那时才会有新的东西。 那个东西就是创造。 那就是创造。 你明白吗？
1:24:24 E: The end of knowledge is creation itself, yes. 1:24:24 艾：结束知识就是创造本身，是的。
1:24:31 K: That requires, not a discipline of conformity, but tremendous alertness inwardly, a sense of deep watchfulness that the other doesn’t slip in. 1:24:31 克：这需要的不是循规蹈矩， 而是内心极其警觉， 需要一种深深的警惕感， 不让另外的东西溜进去。
1:24:53 E: You have to shed everything, then. You wouldn’t be who you are. You know, it is a scary thought. 1:24:53 艾：那你就必须抛弃一切。 你不会是原来的你了。 你知道，这个想法很可怕。
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