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BR85DS1.1 - 你的背景是什么样的？
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| K: We’re going to talk over together many things. Right? From childhood till now and what you are going to do in the future. So we will begin with your background: you are French, you are from the Philippines, you are from India, and you from Argentina. So, four different nationalities, four different backgrounds, four different conditioning. So shall we begin by asking, I am going to ask you, if I may, what was your father and mother like? How did they treat you, as a toy when you were a baby and when you were a child, and they might have treated you with a great deal of affection, care? What’s your background? Because after all that background does condition your thinking partly, and also it shapes your way of life. You see, you gradually fall into a certain pattern. So we are going to begin to talk over together, if you will, if you don’t mind, what was your childhood like and what were your parents like – if you can remember. I personally can’t remember a thing about my youth – a little bit, very vaguely, my childhood, my mother and father. I can’t see them, what they would look like. But my thing is different. So I would like to ask you. Begin with India, or would you like to begin with you? What were your parents like? | 克：我们要一起讨论 很多事情。对吧？ 从童年到现在， 还有你将来要做的事情。 我们先从你们的背景开始： 你是法国人， 你来自菲律宾， 你来自印度， 你来自阿根廷。 所以，四个不同的国籍， 四种不同的背景， 四种不同的塑造。 那么，我们是否可以先问问， 如果可以的话，我想问你， 你的父母是什么样的人？ 当你还是婴儿和孩子的时候， 他们是如何对待你这个玩具的？ 或许他们是带着 极大的关爱对待你的？ 你的背景是什么？ 因为背景毕竟在一定 程度上影响了你的思维， 也塑造了你的生活方式。 你看，你会 逐渐陷入某种模式。 所以，如果你愿意， 如果你不介意的话， 我们将开始一起讨论， 你的童年是什么样的， 你的父母是什么样的 ——如果你还记得的话。 我个人对小时候的事情 一点印象都没有 ——有一点点，非常模糊， 我的童年，我的母亲和父亲。 我看不到他们， 也不知道他们长什么样。 但我的情况不同。 所以我想问问你们。 从印度开始， 还是从你自己开始？ 你的父母是什么样的人？ |
| A: Shall I begin right from the beginning? | 甲：要我从头说起吗？ |
| K: Yes. | 克：是的。 |
| A: As far as I can remember? | 甲：从我记事起？ |
| K: As far as you can remember, of course, you can’t remember when you were born, the second you were born! | 克：从你记事起，当然， 你想不起来你 是什么时候出生的， 你出生的那一秒！ |
| A: I’d like to think that I had a happy childhood. | 甲：我想我有一个 快乐的童年。 |
| K: Not ‘like to think’, but actually. That’s why let’s understand each other right from the beginning. It is better to deal with facts as they are – right? Not imagined, romanticised, hope, or say ‘I thought it was like that’, but actually, factually, so that we can go from fact to fact – you follow? Not bring any kind of imagination and fantasies and so on. Would that be all right? | 克：不是 “想”，而是真的。 所以，这就是为什么我们 要从一开始就互相理解。 最好还是实事求是，对吧？ 不是想象的、浪漫的、希望的， 或者说“我以为是那样的”， 而是实际的、事实的， 这样我们才能从事实 到事实——你明白吗？ 而不是带着任何想象 和幻想等等。 这样可以吗？ |
| A: Of course. | 甲：当然可以。 |
| K: Right? | 克：可以吗？ |
| D: It is difficult because we’re talking about memories, about the past and I always get mixed up. I mean I am not sure how it really was. | 丁：这很难，因为我们谈论的 是回忆，是过去， 而我总是混淆不清。 我的意思是，我不确定 事情到底是怎样的。 |
| K: You can’t remember? | 克： 你不记得了？ |
| B: Well, I think mine is quite a simple case, sir, so I don’t mind starting with myself. Although I live in the Philippines now I was actually born in Hong Kong. And as far as I remember, I remember nothing about what happened when I was in Hong Kong. | 乙：嗯，我觉得我的 情况很简单，先生， 所以我不介意从我自己说起。 虽然我现在住在菲律宾， 但我其实是在香港出生的。 在我的记忆中， 我对在香港发生的事情 一点印象也没有。 |
| K: How old were you? | 克： 你当时多大？ |
| B: When I was in Hong Kong? I was there for eight years, for the first eight years of my life. | 乙：我在香港的时候？ 我在那里呆了八年， 我生命中的头八年。 |
| K: So, what was your eight years like, if you can remember it? With your father you were, naturally. | 克：那么，如果你还记得的话， 你的八年是什么样的？ 自然是和你父亲在一起。 |
| B: No, my father was in the Philippines. | 乙：不，我父亲在菲律宾。 |
| K: Then you lived with your mother? | 克：然后你就和母亲 住在一起？ |
| B: Yes, and my brothers and my sister. | 乙：是的，还有 我的兄弟姐妹。 |
| K: …brothers in Hong Kong. | 克： ……兄弟们在香港。 |
| B: Yes. | 乙：是的。 |
| K: Then what was your relationship to your mother, to your other brothers and sisters, and what were you feeling like? How did your mother treat you? Get your background clear – you follow what I mean? | 克：那你和母亲、 其他兄弟姐妹的关系是怎样的？ 你是什么感受？ 你母亲对你怎么样？ 把你的背景弄清楚 ——你明白我的意思吗？ |
| B: Yes, she wasn’t working then. Well, at one time she had to do some work but not much. So her main job was to look after us. | 乙：是的，她那时没有工作。 好吧，有一段时间她必须 做些工作，但不多。 所以她的主要工作 就是照顾我们。 |
| K: So what was your relationship to her, and her relationship to you? | 克：那你和她的关系怎么样， 她和你的关系怎么样？ |
| B: Well, as a mother to her child. We were very well looked after by her. And as far as I remember I was very happy with her and with my brothers. | 乙：嗯，就像母亲和孩子的关系。 我们让她照顾得很好。 在我的记忆中， 我和她以及我的兄弟们 在一起都很快乐。 |
| K: Was she merely looking after you, or was there a great deal of affection, care, responsibility – you follow? – as a mother. Mothers are always much more important than the fathers – right? Because specially in India they look after you. Mothers are the last people to eat. | 克： 她仅仅是在照顾你们， 还是有很多的爱， 关心，责任 ——你明白吗？ —— 作为母亲。 母亲总是比父亲重要得多，对吗？ 因为特别是在印度， 她们会照顾你。 母亲是最后一个吃饭的人。 |
| A: In my case, sir, my father looked after me for a long time. | 甲：就我而言，先生， 我父亲照顾了我很长时间。 |
| K: A little bit louder please. | 克：请再大声一点。 |
| A: In my case my father looked after me for a long time. | 甲：就我而言， 我父亲照顾了我很长时间。 |
| K: With you, absent? | 克：和你一起，不在？ |
| A: No, he looked after me. | 甲：不，他照顾我。 |
| K: Not your mother? | 克：你母亲呢？ |
| A: Both. | 甲：都是。 |
| K: Both. You are not answering my question quite. If I may repeat again. Unless you are very clear what your background is, from childhood, as far as you can remember naturally, that background, that conditioning, or that past from the beginning, when you can remember, shapes one’s mind gradually, the brain, and then you get caught in a pattern. You are a Brahmin. | 克：都是。 你没有完全回答我的问题。 请允许我再重复一遍。 除非你非常清楚 自己的背景是什么， 从童年开始， 只要你能自然地回忆起来， 否则这种背景、这种塑造， 或者说从你开始 记事的过去 就会逐渐 塑造你的心灵、大脑， 然后你就会陷入一种模式。 你是婆罗门。 |
| A: Yes, I come from a Brahmin family. | 甲：是的， 我来自婆罗门家庭。 |
| K: You were born as a Brahmin family, and they have certain traditions, certain superstitions, a certain kind of way of living. Probably not too orthodox – right? Or were they very orthodox? | 克： 你出生在婆罗门家庭， 他们有某种传统， 某种迷信， 某种生活方式。 可能他们不是特别正统吧？ 还是说，他们非常正统？ |
| A: No, they weren’t orthodox at all. | 甲：不，他们一点也不正统。 |
| K: There were not. So they were more or less stepping out of tradition. Then what was their feeling about you? How did they treat you? What was their feeling about you? And your feeling about them? Did they love you? Or just looking after you? You understand what I mean by loving: caring, hugging, putting you on their lap, looking after you, saw that you slept properly, that you had the right food, that you weren’t too rough, or too gentle, you know, taking care of you greatly. How many sisters and brothers did you have? | 克：没有。 所以他们或多或少脱离了传统。 那他们对你是什么感情？ 他们是怎么对待你的？ 他们对你的是怎样的情感？ 你对他们是怎样的情感？ 他们爱你吗？ 还是只是照顾你？ 你明白我说的爱是什么 意思：关爱、拥抱、 把你放在他们的大腿上、 照顾你、 要保证让你睡得好、 吃得好， 对你既不太粗暴 也不太温柔，你知道， 就是对你无微不至的照顾。 你有几个兄弟姐妹？ |
| A: None. | 甲：没有。 |
| K: So you are the only child? | 克：那么你是独生女？ |
| A: Yes. | 甲：是的。 |
| K: So did they spoil you? | 克：那他们宠你吗？ |
| A: You ask me a difficult question, sir. I don’t know. | 甲：你问了我一个 很难回答的问题，先生。 我也不知道。 |
| K: Go on, sir, answer my questions. Because I will tell you why it is important. Do you see the importance of it? | 克：继续，先生， 回答我的问题。 因为我会告诉 你为什么这很重要。 你看到它的重要性了吗？ |
| B: I am not sure, sir. | 乙：我不确定，先生。 |
| K: That is, if you are not brought up properly, properly in quotes, we will go into that, what it means to be brought up properly. If you are not brought up properly, your life begins to be twisted somewhat, right? You either don’t care for the world, you become more and more self-centred, more and more concerned about yourself, your happiness, your way of life – you follow? More and more self-interest. When you are quite young that self-interest isn’t too prominent, too defined – but as you grow older it becomes stronger and stronger, then you assert yourself, or are aggressive and all the rest of it – right? So I am asking you: what was your background, not only environmentally but also financially, also your relationship with society, how you related to nature, when you looked at the trees what you felt like, when you saw a deer – probably you never saw a tiger. I have seen them but that was in the wild, that is fun. So what was your relationship to the whole thing, to the whole of life, to the trees, to the grass, to the flowers, and to your parents? You understand what I am saying? Isn’t that important to find out for yourself? | 克：就是说， 如果你没有被正确地养育， 加引号的正确， 我们将深入探讨， 什么叫被正确地养育。 如果你没有受到正确的教育， 你的人生就会开始扭曲，对吗？ 你要么不关心世界， 要么变得越来越 以自我为中心， 越来越关注自己、 自己的幸福、 自己的生活方式 ——你明白吗？ 越来越自私自利。 当你还很年轻的时候， 这种利己主义还不是太突出、 太明确—— 但随着年龄的增长，这种 利己主义会变得越来越强烈， 然后你就会坚持自己的主张， 或者咄咄逼人， 以及其他的一切——对吗？ 所以我问你： 你的背景是什么， 不仅是环境方面的， 还有经济方面的， 还有你与社会的关系， 你与大自然的关系如何， 当你看着树的时候， 你有什么感觉， 当你看到鹿的时候—— 可能你从没见过老虎。 我见过老虎，但那是 在野外，很有趣。 那么，你与这整件事情， 与整个生命、树木、小草、 花朵和父母是什么关系？ 你明白我在说什么吗？ 亲自弄明白这些不是很重要吗？ |
| A: You were talking about being brought up properly. | 甲：你刚才说的是正确地成长。 |
| K: Properly. I will tell you what I mean by properly. You had the right number of hours to sleep, right food, in the sense you are a Brahmana, you didn’t probably eat meat, probably – now of course all that has blown. You were kept very clean and your clothes were washed regularly, you had clean clothes, and you slept in the right place – maybe on the floor but it was clean – you follow? Was there, say in India, a traditional background? Or not at all? Or it was becoming very modernised? | 克：正确。我来告诉 你我说的 "适当 "是什么意思。 你有适当的睡眠时间， 有适当的食物， 从你是婆罗门的意义上说， 你可能不吃肉， 可能——当然现在 这一切都已经过去了。 你保持得非常干净， 你的衣服定期清洗， 你有干净的衣服， 你睡在合适的地方 ——也许睡在地板上， 但那是干净的——你明白吗？ 比如在印度，有传统背景吗？ 或者完全没有？ 还是正变得非常现代化？ |
| A: If one lives in urban India, it is quite modernised, westernised. | 甲：如果你生活在印度的城市里， 那是相当现代化、 西方化的。 |
| K: That means what? Did you eat meat? | 克：这意味着什么？ 你吃肉吗？ |
| A: Well, at times yes. | 甲：嗯，有时吃。 |
| K: So, you see what I am trying to get at? You are understanding? In the old days, say, my father and mother, they were very strict about it, they never ate meat, fish and so on, never smoked. So the whole tradition is changing tremendously. So in other words, economy is changing and therefore you are forced to accept what everybody is doing – right? Meat, smoke, alcohol, you know, the whole thing. | 克：那么，你明白我的意思了吗？ 你能理解吗？ 在过去，比如说， 我的父亲和母亲， 他们在这方面非常严格， 他们从来不吃肉、鱼等， 也从来不抽烟。 因此，整个传统 正在发生巨大的变化。 换句话说， 经济正在发生变化， 因此你不得不接受每个人 都在做的事情，对吗？ 吃肉、抽烟、喝酒， 你知道，所有这些。 |
| A: The clothes you wear. | 甲：你穿的衣服。 |
| K: Like everywhere else. So is your brain also becoming ordinary, like everybody else? Enquire. I am asking you, don’t say yes, or no, find out. Let’s enquire. Right? | 克： 就像其他地方一样。 那么，你的大脑是否也像其他人 一样变得普通？ 问吧。 我在问你，不要说是， 也不要说不是，要弄清楚。 我们来问问。对不对？ |
| B: Sir, from what you said about being brought up properly... | 乙：先生，从你所说的 被正确地教育 |
| K: Properly, I have explained that. | 克： 正确，我已经解释过了。 |
| B: Properly, yes, you have explained that. | 乙：正确，是的， 你已经解释过了。 |
| K: Real affection, real sense of while you are young you must be protected, that you learnt to be gentle, to be quiet, to have a certain modesty – you follow what I mean? The whole of that kind of thing. | 克：真正的爱，真正的感觉， 在你小的时候，你必须受到保护， 你要学会温柔，学会安静， 学会谦虚——你明白我的意思吗？ 学会所有这些。 |
| B: Well in that case, sir, I didn’t have that. And also I was living in a city. | 乙：嗯，这么说， 先生，我没有得到这些。 而且我当时住在城里。 |
| K: In a city, of course. | 克：当然是在城里。 |
| B: And I think many of us, probably many of the children nowadays are in that environment. | 乙：我想我们中的许多人， 也许现在的许多孩子 都处在那样的环境中。 |
| K: That is the environment, quite. But all that has made a tremendous impression on you, did it? Or not at all? | 克：这就是环境，没错。 但这些都在你身上留下了 深刻的印记，是吗？ 还是完全没有？ |
| B: Yes, some of it. | 乙：是的，有一些。 |
| K: So what is your background? You understand me? What is the conditioning of your thinking, of your feeling, of your emotions? You understand what I am talking about? | 克：那你的背景是什么？ 你明白我的意思吗？ 你的思维、情感和情绪 受到了哪些塑造？ 你明白我在说什么吗？ |
| B: Yes. | 乙：是的。 |
| K: What were they like? What are they like now? And, in relation to the past, of course what you are now is what has been – right? So what were you like? And what are you now? You can’t be something totally different now from what you have been – right? So trace it out from the beginning, from the time you remember till now. Trace it out, take time, go into it. | 克： 这些方面是什么样的？ 现在又是什么样的？ 与过去是有联系的， 你当然以前是什么样 现在就是什么样，对吗？ 那么，你过去是什么样的？ 现在又是什么样子？ 现在的你不可能与过去的 你完全不同，对吗？ 所以，从头开始， 从你记事开始， 一直追溯到现在。 追溯出来，花点时间， 探询一下。 |
| B: Well I must say it was quite narrow then, my outlook of life was quite narrow. | 乙：我得说， 那时我的人生观很狭隘， 我的人生观非常狭隘。 |
| K: Are you judging from now? From now you are saying it was narrow? | 克：你是站在现在的 角度判断的吗？ 你是根据现在说 那时很狭隘吗？ |
| B: Well, sir, I was in a city, probably I didn’t have much contact with nature, as you said. It is quite important. | 乙：嗯，先生， 我当时在城市里，可能 正如你所说， 我与大自然接触不多。 这很重要。 |
| K: Yes. | 克：是的。 |
| B: And also I was only living with my family. And from what I see of my mother now, I am sorry to say but, you know, her whole life is to bring us up and she expects us to look after her when she is old. | 乙：而且我只和家人 生活在一起。 从我现在看到的我母亲的 情况来看，我很抱歉地说， 但你知道，她操劳一生 就是为了把我们拉扯大， 她希望我们 在她老了之后照顾她。 |
| K: Of course, that’s the... Probably the whole of the East, Asia, there is no social security, therefore the sons have to look after the mother, therefore they have to have several children and so on. You talk to me, don’t keep quiet. | 克： 当然，这是... 可能整个东方，整个亚洲， 都没有社会保障， 所以儿子必须照顾母亲， 所以她们必须生几个孩子，等等。 你跟我说说，别不说话。 |
| C: I can remember when I was young I wasn’t really thinking about nature, thinking about looking at a tree, or thinking very much. I was just living. | 丙：我能想起来我小的时候， 我并没有想过大自然的事， 没想过看看树， 也没有想太多。 我只是活着。 |
| K: Were you living in the country? | 克：你当时住在乡下吗？ |
| C: No I was studying in Paris. | 丙：不，我当时在巴黎读书。 |
| K: I want you to go further back. When were you studying in Paris, at what age? | 克：我想让你再往前追溯一下。 你是什么时候 在巴黎读书的，几岁？ |
| C: Well, I was born in Paris and I stayed until I was seven. | 丙：嗯，我在巴黎出生， 一直待到七岁。 |
| K: In Paris? | 克： 在巴黎？ |
| C: Yes. | 丙：是的。 |
| K: That means what happened in Paris to you during those seven years? You see, please understand what I am trying to say: trace it out, think it out, look at it as though you were looking at a picture which is yourself, you understand? At a series of movements, series of actions, series of feelings, all that has led you up to now. Right? You mightn’t want to talk about it, that I understand. You understand what I am trying to say? Go on. | 克：也就是说，在巴黎的 那七年里，你发生了什么？ 你看，请理解我想说的话： 把那时的事追溯出来， 想起来，看一看， 就像你在看 一幅画，而这幅画 就是你自己，你明白吗？ 看到一连串的运动， 一连串的行为， 一连串的感受， 这些都让你变成了现在 这个样子。 对不对？ 你可能不想谈这个， 这我理解。 你明白我想说什么吗？ 继续说。 |
| A: Well, I went to an ordinary school in Delhi, where you had, say, twenty-five, thirty students in a class, and the teacher would write something on the blackboard. | 甲：嗯，我在德里的 一所普通学校上学， 那里一个班有二十五或 三十个学生， 老师会在黑板上写一些东西。 |
| K: But before that, I am asking. | 克：但我问的是在那之前。 |
| A: Well, I went to a school at the age of two. | 甲：嗯，我两岁时上过学。 |
| K: Good Lord! | 克：好家伙！ |
| A: Indian children are sent to school at the age of two or three, yes. | 甲：印度孩子两三岁 就送去上学了，是的。 |
| K: Why? Find out, you see, you are not enquiring. At the age of two? That I can hardly believe! | 克：为什么？ 弄清楚， 你看，你都不问。 两岁？ 我简直不敢相信！ |
| A: Yes, to a nursery school. | 甲：是的，去幼儿园。 |
| K: To nursery school. | 克：去幼儿园。 |
| A: Well, nursery school you just play with other children. | 甲：嗯，在幼儿园你只是 和其他孩子一起玩。 |
| K: I understand. Not school then, it was really a kindergarten. | 克：我明白了。 那时候不是学校， 其实是幼儿园。 |
| A: Well, you learnt the alphabet and numbers. | 甲：嗯，你学习字母和数字。 |
| K: A crache. | 克： 托儿所。 |
| A: Well, you learnt your alphabet and numbers then. | 甲：嗯，那时你学了字母和数字。 |
| K: What, as you grew up, trace it out, I can’t repeat this over and over again, trace it out. Trace the whole thing from when you begin to remember until now so that you are very clear for yourself. You might not want to talk about it, I understand that. But if you say, sorry, I won’t talk about it, it’s all right. But if you want to go into it, either you express it, put it into words to convey to others, or you are tracing it out on your own – you follow? – and may not want to talk about it. | 克：当你长大后发生了什么， 把它追溯出来， 我不能反复重复了， 把它追溯出来。 从你开始记事到现在， 把整个事情追溯一遍， 这样你自己就会很清楚。 你可能不想说，我理解。 但如果你说，对不起， 我不想谈这些，那也没关系。 但如果你想深入探讨， 要么你把它表达出来， 用语言传达给别人， 要么你自己去追寻 ——你明白吗？ ——但可能不想讲出来。 |
| A: Sir, I think it is easy to tell you what happened but it is difficult to say what one felt when one was young. | 甲：先生，我认为 告诉你发生了什么很容易， 但要说出一个人 小时候的感受却很难。 |
| K: Quite right. | 克：很对。 |
| A: It is very difficult to say how I felt about my parents. | 甲：要说出我 对父母的感受非常困难。 |
| K: I understand that. Now tell me a little more. | 克：我明白。 现在再跟我说说。 |
| A: I don’t know how to proceed. Do you want to know what happened? | 甲：我不知道该怎么说。 你想知道发生了什么吗？ |
| K: Yes, what happened, say, for instance, when you were five. You remember when you were five. Then from that age till twelve – right? – seven years. What was your thinking about? What was your feeling about others? Or about your father and mother? | 克：是的，发生了什么， 比如说，你五岁的时候。 你记得你五岁的时候。 然后从五岁到十二岁 ——对吗？ ——七年。 那时你在想什么？ 你对他人是怎样的情感？ 或者对你的父母？ |
| C: I can remember that I was mainly thinking about going to school and not liking school very much but mainly there were my parents telling me the things I should do and the things I shouldn’t do, and the school also. | 丙：我记得我主要在想上学的事， 不太喜欢上学， 但主要是父母告诉我 应该做什么， 不应该做什么，还有学校。 |
| K: Go on, I am pushing you. | 克：继续说，我在往前推你。 |
| D: I remember I was in a Catholic school run by priests. | 丁：我记得我上的是 一所天主教学校，由牧师管理。 |
| K: Where? In Buenos Aires? | 克： 在哪儿？ 在布宜诺斯艾利斯吗？ |
| D: No, it’s in the north west of Argentina. | 丁：不，在阿根廷西北部。 |
| K: Tell me where. | 克：告诉我在哪儿。 |
| D: Well, the city is called Tucuman. | 丁：嗯，那个城市叫图库曼。 |
| K: Yes, Tucuman, I know. | 克： 是的，图库曼，我知道。 |
| D: Next to the mountains. And I was in this school run by priests. I remember I was quite influenced by what they said and sometimes I used to feel very scared when they talked, and they said that if I lied I would go to hell. But on the other hand, at home my father usually said all what the priests said was rubbish; and then sometimes I paid attention to the priests and sometimes I paid attention to my father. | 丁：在山的旁边。 我上的是一所 由牧师开办的学校。 我记得他们说的话 对我影响很大， 有时他们说话时 我会感到很害怕， 他们说如果我撒谎 就会下地狱。 但另一方面，在家里， 我父亲通常会说 牧师说的话都是垃圾； 所以我有时会听牧师的话， 有时会听父亲的话。 |
| K: May I ask another question? Was learning, writing, reading, was it a problem? | 克：我能再问一个问题吗？ 那时学习、写作、 阅读是个问题吗？ |
| A: No. | 甲：不是。 |
| K: No, just a minute, you are not... Say for instance, you went to school, you were told to study a book – it doesn’t matter whatever it was, to read, to write clearly. Did you make that into a problem? | 克：不，等一下，你没有 比如说，你去上学， 有人让你学习一本书—— 不管是什么书，都没关系， 要读，要写清楚。 你有没有把这个当成一个问题？ |
| A: No. | 甲：没有。 |
| B: Well, no. I think it was something that we had to do and we were doing it. | 乙：嗯，没有。我觉得 这是我们必须做的事情， 而且我们正在做。 |
| K: You had to do it, was there any feeling of not wanting to do it, or wanting to do it? | 克： 你们不得不做，有没有 想做或不想做的感觉？ |
| B: Well, in the beginning there might be that feeling of not wanting to do it. | 乙：嗯，一开始可能会有 不想做的感觉。 |
| D: I don’t think that could have come up. I don’t think I would have thought that maybe I could not do it, so there wasn’t this feeling of not wanting to. | 丁：我认为不会有这种感觉。 我想我不会想到我可能做不到， 所以没有不想做的感觉。 |
| K: You are not quite clear, you are not answering. | 克：你说的不太清楚， 你没有回答我的问题。 |
| D: Well, I am saying I don’t think there was... | 丁：好吧，我是说我不认为 |
| K: You had to learn mathematics, right, all of you? Did you meet mathematics as a problem, or you were forced to do it? You understand the difference? Was it a problem to you, was it something you felt, my gosh, I don’t want to do it but you had to do it? | 克： 你们必须学习数学， 对吗，你们所有人？ 你们是遇到数学问题了， 还是被迫学数学了？ 你们明白这两者的区别吗？ 对你们来说是个问题， 还是你们觉得 “天哪，我不想学， 但又不得不学”？ |
| A: Well, we didn’t have any other choice in a way. When you had to go to school you had to follow those classes. | 甲：从某种程度上说， 我们别无选择。 当你不得不去学校的时候， 你就不得不去上那些课。 |
| K: Was it something disturbing? Something you kind of struggled to learn so that it became a problem to you? | 克： 学习是令人不安的事情吗？ 你学起来很吃力， 所以它成了你的问题？ |
| A: I would say it depends on the subjects in a way. You are saying, mathematics for me it was a problem. Other subjects were not problems. | 甲：我想说，这在 某种程度上取决于科目。 你是说，数学对我来说 是个问题。 其他科目不是问题。 |
| K: This may be a little too serious. Have you got problems now? Something which you have to resolve? | 克：这可能有点太严重了。 你现在有问题吗？ 你必须解决的问题？ |
| D: Yes, I would say, yes, I do, sometimes there are some things and I feel, oh, that’s a problem, what can I do? | 丁：是的，我想说，是的，我有， 有时有些事情，我觉得， 哦，那是个问题， 我能做什么呢？ |
| K: So why do you call it a problem? | 克：那你为什么 说这是个问题？ |
| D: Well, I think... | 丁：嗯，我觉得 |
| K: Just listen to my question first. I may be wrong, don’t accept what I am saying, or anything. Is your brain – brain, inside the skull – has it got many problems? | 克： 先听我的问题。 我可能说错了，不要接受 我说的话，也不要接受任何东西。 你的大脑 ——头骨里的大脑—— 有很多问题吗？ |
| A: By itself, the brain by itself? | 甲：大脑本身？ |
| K: Problems, mathematics, marriage, sex, what are you going to do tomorrow after you leave here – you follow? – what is your future. Isn’t that all something that disturbs you? Or you merely live day by day? | 克：各种问题， 数学，婚姻，性， 你明天离开这里后 要做什么——你明白吗？ ——你的未来会怎样？ 这些不都是 困扰你的东西吗？ 还是说，你只是 过一天算一天？ |
| A: No, very often one has to think of what is going to do in the future. | 甲：不，很多时候， 一个人必须考虑 将来要做什么。 |
| K: Yes. | 克：是的。 |
| A: After I leave Brockwood. | 甲：在我离开布洛克伍德之后。 |
| K: Does that create a problem in you? You are frightened, you become anxious, you say, my god, life is so monstrous – you follow what I mean? – it is so frightening, so dangerous, what am I going to do? Or you just think I want to do that, I am going to do that. Nothing else. | 克：那会给你带来问题吗？ 你会害怕，你会焦虑， 你会说，天哪，生活太可怕了 ——你明白我的意思吗？ —— 太可怕了，太危险了， 我该怎么办？ 或者你只是想，我想 做这个，我要做那个。 别的什么也不想。 |
| A: I don’t know what to do. | 甲：我不知道该怎么办。 |
| K: Right. We will come to that presently. What I am trying to find out – you are not helping me, you are not tracing out your life. So to put it differently, you don’t know your conditioning – right? | 克：对。我们现在 就来讨论这个问题。 我想知道的是 ——你们没有帮我， 你们没有追溯你的生活。 换句话说， 你不知道 自己受到的塑造，对吗？ |
| A: What do you mean by that? | 甲：你说的塑造是什么意思？ |
| K: I told you. I mean by that conditioning, the tradition, the school, the various subjects you had to learn, and the background of your father and mother, what they were like, and what they told you to do and not to do, their superstitions, or their beliefs, or their faith imposed on you – you follow? All that shapes your brain. Right? Because they are older, they are more influential, they know better than you and I do – right? So they say you must do this, you must not do that, and they scold you, or beat you up. So all that shapes your brain slowly – right? You understand what I am saying now? Agree? So that gradually becomes your conditioning. Then your conditioning becomes still more when you have to take a special subject and become a specialist – right? As a carpenter, gardener, or a scientist, or a doctor and so on – right? So gradually your brain becomes narrower and narrower – you follow? Are you aware of this? | 克：我告诉过你。 我的意思是，通过那些塑造， 通过传统，学校， 你必须学习的各种科目， 你父亲和母亲的背景， 他们是什么样的人， 他们告诉你做什么 和不做什么， 他们的迷信，或者他们的信仰， 或者他们强加给你的信仰 ——你明白吗？ 所有这些都塑造了你的大脑。 对不对？ 因为他们更年长， 他们更有影响力， 他们比你我知道得更多，对吗？ 所以他们说你必须这样做， 你不能那样做， 他们骂你，或者打你。 所有这些慢慢地 塑造了你的大脑，对吗？ 你现在明白我在 说什么了吧？ 同意吗？ 所以，你慢慢地 就受到了这些塑造。 然后，当你必须学习一门 特殊的学科并成为一名专家时， 你会受到更多的塑造——对吗？ 木匠、园丁、科学家、 医生等等，对吗？ 因此，你的大脑逐渐 变得越来越狭隘——你明白吗？ 你意识到这一点了吗？ |
| D: Well, I don’t... | 丁：嗯，我不... |
| K: Wait. Listen to this. Are you aware of this taking place in you? | 克： 等等。听听这句话。 你意识到自己身上 发生的这一切了吗？ |
| A: Why do you say it becomes narrower? | 甲：你为什么说它 变得狭隘了？ |
| K: If you don’t like that word 'narrow', it becomes limited. | 克：如果你不喜欢 “狭隘”这个词， 那就是变得有限。 |
| A: You mean because I have to choose something that I have to do? | 甲：你是说因为我必须 选择我必须做的事情？ |
| K: No, when you say, I want to do that, that’s my life. So gradually you concentrate on that – right? You don’t take life as a whole. You understand what I am saying? It doesn’t mean that you must know all about playing the piano, or some instrument, that you must know all what the scientists are saying, all the books. I don’t mean that. I am trying to point out, if I may, where there is self-interest, whether in specialising or in having some skill, linguistics, learning many languages, they are all good but if there is self-interest, it becomes... you understand? You understand what I am saying? | 克：不，当你说，我想做 那件事，那就是我的生活的时候， 渐渐地，你就会专注于此，对吗？ 你不会把生活当作一个整体。 你明白我在说什么吗？ 这并不意味着你必须对弹钢琴 或某种乐器了如指掌， 你必须明白所有科学家、 所有书里讲的是什么。 我不是这个意思。 如果可以的话，我想指出的是， 在有自身利益的地方， 不管是专门研究什么， 还是拥有某种技能， 比如，语言学， 学习多种语言， 这些都是很好， 但如果有自身利益，那就会 你明白吗？ 你明白我在说什么吗？ |
| C: But we are not aware of it. | 丙：但我们没有意识到这一点。 |
| K: First listen to what I have to say. Where there is self-interest: me first, my interests first, what I want to do, I am free to do what I think, I will rebel against my parents – you follow? – I will do what I think is right; my prejudice is as good as your prejudice. I hold to my opinions – right? My conclusions. All that is self-interest in different ways. That self-interest has enormous consequences – right? If I am interested only in myself and I marry somebody and she has also self-interest – you understand the relationship? It is a mutual self-interest! | 克：先听我说。 在有自身利益的地方： 我第一，我的利益第一， 我想做什么就做什么， 为所欲为， 我会反抗我的父母 ——你明白吗？ —— 我会做我认为正确的事情； 我的偏见 和你的偏见一样好。 我坚持我的观点——对吗？ 坚持我的结论。 所有这些都是 不同方式的利己主义。 这种利己主义 会带来严重后果——对吗？ 如果我只对自己感兴趣， 而我和某人结婚， 她也对自己感兴趣 ——你明白这种关系吗？ 彼此都是为了自己的利益！ |
| A: So would you say there is self-interest in a human being right from a very young age? | 甲：那么你认为 人从很小的时候 就有自身利益吗？ |
| K: Probably. My book, my toy. | 克：也许吧。我的书，我的玩具。 |
| A: Well, before you can say, this is my book? | 甲：那么，在你说出 “这是我的书”之前呢？ |
| K: I don’t know. No, I have read somewhere, some scientists have discovered – they may change tomorrow, they generally do – they said the baby knows who the friends are of the mother. The baby knows with whom the mother is friendly, of whom she kind of resists or is nervous, or frightened or emotional. The baby has a feeling about it. Probably, I don’t know, I have read it, it may be wrong. | 克：我不知道。 不，我在什么地方 读到过， 一些科学家发现 ——他们可能明天说法就会变， 他们常这样做—— 他们说婴儿知道 谁是母亲的朋友。 婴儿知道母亲对谁友好， 对谁有抵触，感到 紧张、恐惧或情绪化。 婴儿对此是有感觉的。 可能，我不知道， 我读过，可能是错的。 |
| A: So self-interest could be acquired, or it could be genetic. | 甲：所以自利可能是 后天形成的，也可能是遗传的。 |
| K: Find out, first, don’t ask me, I am asking you. | 克：先弄清楚， 别问我，我在问你。 |
| A: I am wondering if that is so. | 甲：我想知道是不是这样。 |
| K: Find out. Rather, you know what self-interest is, don’t you? That self-interest can express itself in prayer, in worship, and devotion to somebody – right? And also in knowledge – right? In certain capacities, as a painter, as a musician – right? It hides itself in faith, in belief – right? So we know where self-interest is, it is fairly clear. Do you know where it is not? Careful, don’t answer yet. Where it is not? We know where it is, right? | 克：弄清楚。 你知道什么是利己主义，不是吗？ 利己主义可以在祈祷、崇拜 和对某人的奉献中 表现出来，对吗？ 还有知识——对吗？ 作为画家、音乐家的 某些能力——对吗？ 它隐藏在信仰和信念中，对吗？ 所以我们知道利己主义在哪里， 这一点相当清楚。 你知道它不在哪里吗？ 小心，先别回答。 它不在哪里？ 我们知道它在哪里，对吗？ |
| D: It seems to be pretty much everywhere in humanity. It seems to be almost in every human being. | 丁：它似乎在人类中无处不在。 几乎每个人都有。 |
| K: I know all that, we know that. | 克：这些我都知道， 我们都知道。 |
| A: It seems to be in almost everything I do. | 甲：它似乎差不多存在于 我所做的每一件事中。 |
| B: Sir, it also seems something natural. | 乙：先生，这似乎 也是很自然的事。 |
| K: Find out. You see, I am asking you to enquire into all this, if I may. | 克：弄清楚。 你看，如果可以的话， 我请你调查一下这一切。 |
| A: I don’t know what self-interest is not. | 甲：我不知道利己主义不是什么。 |
| K: Find out. Do you see it hides in most subtle ways, and the most cruellest ways? When I use you and you use me, it is the most... right? So we know where it is, where it hides, where it kind of subtly moves along. It may be worshipping nature – you follow? It is extraordinary subtle. Right? I am not talking about all this, I don’t want to talk. You are making me talk all the time. You are not answering my questions. I will finish it. You know where it is. If you have examined closely, if you have observed very carefully what is happening around you, what is happening, you follow? Self-interest seems to be so extraordinarily dominant. And you also know it is very, very subtle, social health, social activities, helping people – you follow? And the gurus with their blah – you follow? | 克：弄清楚。 你看到它以最微妙的方式 和最残酷的方式隐藏起来了吗？ 当我利用你，你利用我的时候， 这是最……对不对？ 所以我们知道它在哪里， 它藏在哪里， 在哪里微妙地运动。 它可能是对自然的崇拜 ——你明白吗？ 它非常微妙。 对不对？ 我不想谈这些， 我不想说话。 你在让我不停地讲。 你没有回答我的问题。 我会说完的。 你知道它在哪儿。 如果你仔细观察过， 如果你仔细观察过 你周围发生的一切， 在发生什么的话，你明白吗？ 利己主义似乎格外占主导地位。 你也知道它是非常非常微妙的， 社会健康、社会活动、 助人为乐——你明白吗？ 还有那些胡说八道的大师们 ——你明白吗？ |
| A: Very often we don’t notice it. | 甲：很多时候我们没有注意到。 |
| K: Therefore find out where it is not. We will come to that presently. You haven’t told me – not to me – you haven’t discovered for yourself what your background is, what your conditioning is, why you think this, why you don’t think that – you follow? Go into it. | 克：那就弄清楚它不在的地方。 我们现在就来讨论这个问题。 你还没有告诉我 ——不是对我说—— 你还没有自己发现 你的背景是什么， 你受到了哪些塑造， 你为什么这样想， 你为什么不那样想 ——你明白吗？ 探询一下。 |
| D: It is difficult to define what one’s background is. I mean it feels that is what I have lived, you know. | 丁：很难界定一个人的 背景是什么。 我的意思是，我觉得 这就是我的生活，你知道的。 |
| K: Yes, that is what I am asking you. That is your background. | 克：是的，这就是我问你的。 这就是你的背景。 |
| A: But, sir, if you ask what did you feel about it, I cannot say. I can’t remember. | 甲：但是，先生，如果你 问我你对此有什么感受， 我说不上来。我不记得了。 |
| K: All right. Then tell me what were the facts, as far as you can remember, as far back. | 克：好吧。那就 告诉我事实是怎样的， 就你所能记得的， 一直往前追溯。 |
| D: That would be a very long story, Krishnaji. | 丁：说来话长，克里希那吉。 |
| K: Yes, a long story, go on, we have got time. You see, that is where you begin to learn about yourself – right? What you are, what you feel, why you feel, what you think, why you think – you follow? You begin to learn your reactions. You begin to learn about your own way of looking at it, prejudices, all that, you begin to learn about yourself, which is very important – right? You really agree? You really see how important it is to know yourself? Do you? Not what other people say – right? To know all the corners of yourself, all the caves, all the undergrounds, all the shadows, you follow, your whole being. You know mathematics, obviously, or history, or geography, or some technological subject, or you have some skill in some musical instrument and so on and so on. But apparently you don’t seem to know about yourself, which is far more important than learning how to paint, or how to dance, which is necessary too, but that's... You follow what I am saying? | 克： 是的，说来话长， 说吧，我们还有时间。 你看，这就是你开始了解 自己的地方——对吗？ 你是什么，你有什么感觉， 你为什么会有这种感觉， 你在想什么，你为什么 会这样想——你明白了吗？ 你开始了解自己的反应。 你开始了解自己 看待问题的方式、 偏见等等，你开始了解自己， 这非常重要，对吗？ 你真的同意吗？ 你真的明白 了解自己有多重要吗？ 是吗？ 而不是别人怎么说——对吗？ 要了解自己的所有角落、 所有洞穴、所有地下、 所有阴影，你明白， 你的整个存在。 很明显，你懂数学， 或者历史、地理， 或者一些技术学科， 或者你有一些乐器方面的技能， 等等，等等。 但很显然，你似乎 并不了解你自己， 但是这远比学习 如何绘画或如何跳舞更重要， 后者也是必要的， 但那是…… 你明白我的意思吗？ |
| B: Why do you say that, sir? | 乙：为什么这么说，先生？ |
| K: What? | 克：什么？ |
| B: That it is more important than... | 乙：这比……更重要。 |
| K: Obviously, sir. I am asking you, tell me. What do you think? | 克：很明显，先生。 我在问你，告诉我。 你是怎么想的？ |
| B: Well, you see, we spend most of our time learning mathematics or... | 乙：嗯，你看，我们把大部分 时间都花在学习数学或 |
| K: I know. So are you also learning about yourself? | 克： 我知道。 那么，你也在了解你自己吗？ |
| B: Well, as far as I remember, not before. | 乙：嗯，根据我的记忆， 以前没有过。 |
| K: Not before. Now to learn about yourself you have to trace what you were ten years ago, what you are now, is that the result of ten years? Enquire into it. | 克： 以前没有过。 现在要了解自己， 你必须追溯十年前的自己， 现在的自己，是十年的结果吗？ 调查一下。 |
| A: Sir, I was brought up to believe in god, not so much by my parents, but by my friends, my cousins, my uncles, my aunts, to believe in god. | 甲：先生，我从小就信神， 与其说是我的父母， 不如说是我的朋友、 我的表兄弟、我的叔叔、 我的姑姑，让我信神。 |
| K: Like most people do. | 克：就像大多数人一样。 |
| A: Yes. | 甲：是的。 |
| K: Move from there. | 克：从那里开始。 |
| A: And I never really questioned that. | 甲：我从来没有质疑过。 |
| K: Do you question it now? | 克：你现在质疑了吗？ |
| A: Yes. | 甲：是的。 |
| K: Now when you question what takes place, how do you question it? Why do they believe in god? What is it that makes them believe? You ought to be asking all these questions. | 克：现在当你质疑发生的事情时， 你是怎么质疑的？ 他们为什么信神？ 是什么让他们相信？ 你应该问所有这些问题。 |
| D: It seems to be an easy way of living, you know, if you say there is god, and he will send this to us and he has arranged things, so you put the responsibility in god. | 丁：这似乎是一种 简单的生活方式，你知道， 如果你说有神， 他会把这些东西送给我们， 他已经安排好了一切， 那么你就把责任推给了神。 |
| K: Yes, so what do you say? | 克：是的，那你怎么说？ |
| A: You want something to hang on to. | 甲：你想有个依靠。 |
| K: Yes, what do you feel? | 克：是的，你有什么感觉？ |
| D: Now? | 丁：现在？ |
| K: What do you feel? You see, the vast majority of mankind believe in god – right? In different ways – right? In the Asiatic world it is the Buddha, the Hindus have many gods and the Christians and the Muslims have only one, and what is your feeling about all this? | 克：你有什么感觉？ 你看，绝大多数人 都信神——对吧？ 以不同的方式——对吗？ 在亚洲世界是佛， 印度教徒有很多神， 基督徒和穆斯林只有一个， 你对这一切有什么感觉？ |
| C: This feeling we have about it, wouldn’t it come from the feeling the parents had about it? | 丙：我们的这种感觉， 不就是来自父母对它的感觉吗？ |
| K: So you believe too? | 克：那你也相信吗？ |
| C: No. | 丙：不信。 |
| K: Why? | 克： 为什么？ |
| C: Well, my parents told me you believe if you want, you don’t believe if you don’t want. | 丙：嗯，我父母告诉我， 你想信就信， 不想信就不信。 |
| K: Yes, what do you feel about it? | 克：是的，你怎么看？ |
| C: Well, I personally don’t believe in it. | 丙：嗯，我个人不相信。 |
| K: Yes, that means what? You don’t care. | 克：是的，那意味着什么？ 你不在乎。 |
| C: No, it is not that I don’t care but I... | 丙：不，我不是不在乎，而是 |
| K: You are indifferent. | 克：你无动于衷。 |
| C: Well, I was in a Catholic school for a while so I saw, you know, how they go to church, how people when they go to church and all what happens when they pray, and their singing, and repeating many things. I didn’t really see the point of doing that. | 丙：好吧，我在天主教学校呆过 一段时间，所以我看到了，你知道， 他们是怎么去教堂的， 人们是怎么去教堂的， 他们祈祷时会发生什么， 他们唱歌，重复很多事情。 我真的不明白这样做有什么意义。 |
| K: So is that part of your background, that you saw all this? | 克： 所以这就是你的背景， 你看到了这一切？ |
| C: Yes. | 丙：是的。 |
| K: And you say what a circus it is, what nonsense it is, or how marvellous it is? You follow? What was your... You are not doing what I’m… What do you think about all this, the wars, the terrorism that is going on, one group fighting another group, like in Lebanon – right? Shia against Suni – you follow? – Christians against... what is your reaction to all that? | 克：你说这是什么马戏团， 什么胡言乱语， 还是多么不可思议？ 你听懂了吗？ 你的 你没有像我这样 你对所有这些怎么看， 战争，正在发生的恐怖主义， 一个团体对抗另一个团体， 比如在黎巴嫩——对不对？ 什叶派对抗逊尼派— 你明白吗？ ——基督徒对抗 你对这一切有何反应？ |
| A: I feel frightened sometimes when I think of it. | 甲：我有时一想到 这些就感到害怕。 |
| K: Frightened of what? | 克：害怕什么？ |
| A: Well, that one day the world could blow up, maybe. | 甲：嗯，也许有一天世界会爆炸。 |
| K: So are you concerned about the world, or concerned about yourself in the world? | 克：那你是担心世界， 还是担心世界上的自己？ |
| A: Myself in the world. | 甲：我自己的世界。 |
| K: That means self-interest. | 克：就是说自身利益。 |
| A: Yes. | 甲：是的。 |
| K: You see, I am trying to push you. You don’t investigate. You know, in Brussels, that horrible thing that happened, forty two people were killed, what is your reaction? You saw that, you must have seen it on television, or read it in the papers, and what do you feel about it? What do you feel about it depends on your background – you follow what I mean? So you have to enquire into your background. So unless – that is what I am trying to ask – unless you trace it out very carefully, step by step, so that you know what your actions are, what your feelings are, why you think this way, what your prejudice is – you follow? – you begin to learn all about yourself. And then you find that by Jove, I am conditioned as an Argentine, as a Catholic, as a Hindu, or what nonsense, all that. You begin to learn about yourself. Right? Isn’t that important? Careful, don’t answer something. I am asking you a question: isn’t it important to know about yourself? | 克：你看，我是在往前推你。 你没有调查。 你知道吗，在布鲁塞尔 发生的那件可怕的事情， 四十二人被杀， 你有什么反应？ 你看到了，你肯定在电视上 看到了，或者在报纸上读到了， 你对此有何感想？ 你的感受取决于你的背景—— 你明白我的意思吗？ 所以，你必须了解 自己的背景。 所以，除非—— 这就是我想问的—— 除非你非常仔细地、 一步一步地追溯， 从而知道你的行为是什么， 你的感受是什么， 你为什么会这样想， 你的偏见是什么—— 你明白吗？—— 你会开始了解自己的一切。 然后你会发现，天哪， 我被塑造成阿根廷人、 塑造成天主教徒、印度教徒， 或者其他什么荒唐的东西了。 你开始了解自己。 对不对？ 这不是很重要吗？ 小心，别回答什么。 我在问你一个问题： 了解自己难道不重要吗？ |
| C: Why is it so important? | 丙：为什么这么重要？ |
| K: I am asking you. Look, I am asking you: isn’t it important, of really very great importance that you should know about yourself? I am asking you the question, don’t… | 克：我在问你。 听着，我在问你： 你应该了解自己， 这难道 不是非常重要吗？ 我在问你这个问题，难道不 |
| D: Well, I don’t know. | 丁：嗯，我不知道。 |
| K: What do you mean you don’t know? | 克：你不知道是什么意思？ |
| D: I am trying to think what the importance of that would be. | 丁：我在想这有什么重要性。 |
| K: Why then do you give importance to mathematics? Or geography? Or your ‘O’ and ‘A’ levels? Learning more and more about history – you follow? You think that is important and you say this is what… | 克：那你为什么重视数学？ 或者重视地理？ 或者重视 你的普通和高级水平考试？ 学习越来越多的历史 ——你明白吗？ 你认为这很重要，你说这就是 |
| A: Because I have been taught to see that that is important. | 甲：因为我接受的教育 认为这很重要。 |
| K: So I am asking you, do you consider this as important, to know yourself? | 克：所以我问你， 你认为了解自己 很重要吗？ |
| D: Well, Krishnaji, you have been saying that it is important. | 丁：嗯，克里希那吉， 你一直说这很重要。 |
| K: I am asking you, don’t tell me what I said, I know what I said. | 克：我在问你， 不要告诉我我说了什么， 我知道我说了什么。 |
| D: Well, because of what you have said then I sort of think, well, maybe it is because you said that. | 丁：好吧，因为你说过的话， 所以我想， 也许是因为你说过这话。 |
| K: Find out if it is important or not. Forget what I have said. | 克：看看这到底重不重要。 忘掉我说的话吧。 |
| B: It is true, even though we have heard what he has said, it seems we don’t go into ourselves maybe because we don’t see the importance of it. | 乙：是这样的，尽管 我们听到了他说的话， 但似乎我们 并没有探询我们自己， 也许是因为我们 没有看到其重要性。 |
| K: You see, what has happened to you four, you haven’t learnt the art of enquiry – right? | 克：你看，你们四个人 身上发生了什么事， 你们没有学会 探究的艺术——对吗？ |
| A: Well, what is the art of enquiry? | 甲：那么，什么是探究的艺术？ |
| K: I am showing it to you. I am showing it to you, the art, learning what you were as a young girl, how you looked at things, what is your feeling to your parents, to your environment, slowly begin from there, find out what you are now. So that – I am not going to tell you! You tell me. I am asking you a question – examination. You have considered acquiring knowledge about various subjects as tremendously important – right? Why? | 克：我在向你展示。 我在向你展示， 这门艺术，了解你还是 小姑娘的时候的样子， 你是如何看待事物的， 你对父母、 对环境的感觉是什么， 从那里慢慢开始， 弄清你现在的样子。 这样——我不会告诉你！ 你来告诉我。 我在问 你一个问题——在考考你。 你们认为掌握各种 学科的知识非常重要， 对吗？ 为什么？ |
| A: Because everybody else around me thinks so. | 甲：因为我周围的人都这么认为。 |
| K: Of course, everybody wants to smoke, everybody wants to drink beer. | 克：当然，每个人都想抽烟， 每个人都想喝啤酒。 |
| A: That is what happens. You tend to do something which everybody else does. | 甲：就是这样。 你倾向于做别人都做的事。 |
| K: Why? Enquire. You see, you are not doing it. | 克：为什么？查究一下。 你看，你没有这样做。 |
| C: Well, you are just like everybody else. You tend to – everyone does the same thing and no one tries to... | 丙：嗯，你就是和别人一样。 你倾向于—— 每个人都做同样的事情， 没有人试图 |
| K: Then you are becoming – Again you want to belong to a group. | 克：那你就会变得—— 你又想属于一个群体了。 |
| A: But you are not aware of it. | 甲：但你并没有意识到这一点。 |
| K: Wait, wait. Find out. Don’t say there is no other way. Find out. | 克：等等，等等。弄明白。 不要说没有别的办法。弄明白。 |
| A: I don’t want to be alone in something that I do. | 甲：我不想在做我做的 事情时感到孤独。 |
| K: So find out why you don’t want to be alone. | 克：那就弄清你不想孤独的原因。 |
| K: Is it fear? | 克：是恐惧吗？ |
| D: Yes. | 丁：是的。 |
| K: Is it that you want to belong to a group, feel safe? | 克：是你想归属于 一个团体，有安全感吗？ |
| A: It feels secure to me. | 甲：这让我感觉有安全感。 |
| K: I mustn’t tell you all these things. You tell me. | 克：我不能告诉你这些事情。 你来告诉我。 |
| A: Yes, sir, it does feel safe to be part of a group. | 甲：是的，先生， 加入一个团体确实有安全感。 |
| K: So you are frightened, or nervous, or feel the danger of not belonging to something, to a group, to a country, to a tribe. | 克：那么你感到害怕， 或者紧张， 或者危险， 如果不属于什么， 不属于某个团体， 不属于某个国家， 不属于某个部落的话？ |
| A: To my family. | 甲：我的家庭。 |
| K: Yes, and to a nation – right? Do you see the consequences of all that? | 克：是的，还有国家——对吗？ 你看到这一切的后果了吗？ |
| D: Yes. | 丁：是的。 |
| K: He should know there was war in Falklands. Malaysia – what is the word called Falkland… | 克：他应该知道 福克兰群岛发生过战争。 马来西亚——福克兰群岛 这个词怎么说来着 |
| D: Malvinas. | 丁：马尔维纳斯群岛。 |
| K: Malvinas, that’s it. And they are at war – right? Killing I don’t know how many thousands. Which is, a particular group of people wanting that land and another group says no, you can’t have it, and we’ll go and kill each other – right? What do you think about it? | 克：马尔维纳斯群岛，就是它。 他们在打仗，对吗？ 不知道杀了多少人。 也就是说，一群人想要那片土地， 另一群人说不，不能给你， 然后我们就自相残杀——对吗？ 你怎么看？ |
| D: It seems foolish to think that one would kill because of a piece of land. | 丁：为了一块土地 而杀人的想法 似乎很愚蠢。 |
| K: Yes. Now wait a minute. Why are people attached to this, to a particular group, a particular British, or the Argentine, or the French and Algiers? You understand? The Hindus and the Muslim. | 克：是的。等一下。 人们为什么要依附这种东西， 依附某个特定的群体， 特定的英国人， 或者阿根廷人，或者法国人 和阿尔及尔人？ 你明白吗？ 印度教徒和穆斯林。 |
| A: Does self-interest come into this? | 甲：这里面有自身利益吗？ |
| K: Find out. See. Enquire. Don’t ask me. I’ll tell you. | 克：弄明白。 看一看。查究一下。 别问我。我会告诉你的。 |
| D: If the self-interest didn’t tell you to belong to this group, you wouldn’t have the groups then you wouldn’t have the problem. | 丁：如果自身利益没有 告诉你要属于这个团体， 你就不会有团体， 那么你就不会有问题。 |
| B: And we also said we want to be safe. | 乙：我们还说我们要安全。 |
| K: I’ll keep quiet. I won’t talk to you, go into it. That’s why I have been saying please learn the art of it. | 克：我会保持沉默。我不会 跟你说。探询一下吧。 这就是为什么我一直在说， 请你学习这种艺术。 |
| A: We often think enquiring is asking a whole lot of questions. | 甲：我们常常认为 询问就是问一大堆问题。 |
| K: To yourself, not asking others. | 克：问自己，而不是问别人。 |
| A: No, to oneself as well. | 甲：不，也是问自己。 |
| K: Are you doing it? | 克：你在询问吗？ |
| A: I want to know is it just asking any question that comes to your mind, or is there such a thing as... | 甲：我想知道， 是想到什么问题 就问什么问题， 还是…… |
| K: Yes any question, about yourself. Not what kind of kite or what kind of bird that is, that comes later. You know, probably you have studied a great deal, books, you know what chemistry is, you know what the whole nature of history is – right? Geography and mathematics and science, and all the things you know very well, you have been brought up in it, educated – right? You give tremendous importance to that. And you say, well, the other thing doesn’t matter – the other thing being what you are, why you are, what’s the future of you? Learn. | 克：是的， 任何问题，关于你自己的。 不是什么风筝或什么鸟， 那是后话。 你知道，你可能学过 很多东西，读过很多书， 你知道什么是化学， 你知道整个历史的 本质是什么——对吗？ 地理、数学和科学， 以及所有你非常熟悉的东西， 你都是在其中长大的， 教育出来的——对吗？ 你们对此非常重视。 你说，嗯， 其他的事情并不重要—— 其他的事情就是 你是什么，你为什么存在， 你的未来是什么？ 学习。 |
| D: Krishnaji, I think we do think about it and we are somewhat worried sometimes about the future, but it is difficult to find an answer, about the past or the future, I find I seem not to be able to answer this question, sir. | 丁：克里希那吉，我想 我们确实想过这个问题， 我们有时也会 对未来有些担忧， 但很难找到答案， 不管是关于过去还是未来， 我发现我似乎无法 回答这个问题，先生。 |
| K: Because you haven’t enquired, old boy. Don’t ask the question, find the answer for yourself. | 克：因为你还没有问过， 亲爱的孩子。 不要问这个问题， 自己去找答案吧。 |
| B: Sir, somehow there are blocks to going into oneself. | 乙：先生，不知怎么的， 探询自己会受到阻碍。 |
| K: Why? | 克：为什么？ |
| A: Sir, I don’t want to ask these questions at times because I am afraid of finding out something that I don’t like. | 甲：先生，我有时 不想问这些问题， 因为我害怕发现一些 我不喜欢的东西。 |
| K: So find out why you are afraid. What is fear? You see? | 克：那就弄清 你害怕的原因。恐惧是什么？ 你明白吗？ |
| A: Yes. | 甲：是的。 |
| K: It is no good standing at the edge of a pool and say, ‘I can’t swim’. You learn from a professional, or you temporarily get in little by little – you follow? | 克：站在泳池边说， “我不会游泳”是不行的。 你要向专业人士学习， 或者暂时一点一点地学 ——你明白吗？ |
| B: Sir, could we find out what the blocks are? | 乙：先生，我们能 弄清这些障碍是什么吗？ |
| K: Find out! | 克：弄明白！ |
| B: I mean now. | 乙：我是说现在。 |
| D: Well, she mentioned fear, just now. | 丁：嗯，她刚才提到了恐惧。 |
| K: Yes, she mentioned one of them. | 克：是的，她提到了其中一个。 |
| D: One of them. | 丁：其中之一。 |
| K: She said fear and wanting to be safe – right? Now find out what it means ‘wanting to be safe’. Safe from what? | 克：她说恐惧 和想要安全——对吗？ 现在看看“想要安全” 是什么意思。 对什么安全？ |
| D: Somehow it is not wanting to move because you don’t know what is somewhere else. | 丁：不知怎的就是不想动， 因为你不知道别的地方有什么。 |
| K: Yes. So is your mind, is your brain becoming limited through fear? So you say, by Jove, I don’t know, so I won’t even look at it. | 克：是的。那么，你的思想， 你的大脑是否因为恐惧 而变得受限？ 所以你说，天哪，我不知道， 所以我连看都不想看。 |
| A: Or I have been hurt before and I don’t want to be hurt again. | 甲：或者我以前受过伤， 我不想再受伤了。 |
| K: So take hurt. Why are you hurt? Who is hurt? You see? Suprabha, please learn step by step. You didn’t know history but you learnt, you spent time, book after book or somebody telling you. So this way go step by step and learn. | 克：那就说伤害。你为什么受伤？ 谁受伤了？ 你明白了吗？ 苏普拉巴，请一步一步地学习。 你不懂历史，但你学了， 你花了时间， 一本书、一本书地读， 或者有人告诉你。 这样一步一步地学吧。 |
| B: Is there a teacher, sir? | 乙：有老师吗，先生？ |
| K: That means is your brain active in a certain direction, knowledge, books, examinations, ‘A’ level, ‘O’ level and you want a job – you follow? – at the end of it, or not. Why don’t you spend a little time over the other side? | 克：也就是说，你的大脑 是否朝着某个方向活动， 知识、书本、考试、 高级水平考试，普通水平考试， 最后你想要一份工作 ——你明白吗？ —— 或者不想要一份工作？ 你为什么不花一点时间 去思考另一个问题呢？ |
| A: I am not sure I have seen the importance of knowing oneself. | 甲：我不确定我是否 看到了认识自我的重要性。 |
| K: Why? Why don’t you see the importance of it? | 克：为什么？为什么你 看不到它的重要性？ |
| D: In one way one doesn’t feel important if there are so many other people too, you know, and they are also doing the same, then you feel, well, in essence I can’t be that important. | 丁：从某种意义上说，如果有 那么多人也在做同样的事， 你就会觉得自己不重要，你知道， 他们也在做同样的事， 那么你就会觉得，好吧， 从本质上说，我不可能那么重要。 |
| K: From what you have told me you are really following the herd. All right, find out why you are following it. | 克：从你告诉我的情况来看， 你确实是在随大流。 好吧，看看你为什么要随大流。 |
| A: Like we said before, sir, I want to belong to something. | 甲：就像我们之前说的， 先生，我想有所归属。 |
| K: Then go into it, learn. | 克：那就去调查、了解一下。 |
| A: Why do I want to belong? | 甲：我为什么要有归属感？ |
| K: Yes. And see the consequences of belonging. The consequences are separation – right? One group again another group – right? One tribe against another tribe. Gradually build up a nation, and this nation against that nation – right? This nation represents one ideology, and this group represents another ideology, so ideologies are fighting. For that you kill millions – right? So follow it up. Is this the way to live after a million, or two million, or fifty thousand years, is this the way to live? | 克：是的。 看看归属感的后果。 后果就是分离——对吗？ 一个群体对抗 另一个群体——对吗？ 一个部落对抗另一个部落。 逐渐建立起一个国家， 这个国家对抗 那个国家——对吗？ 这个民族代表 一种意识形态， 这个群体代表 另一种意识形态， 所以意识形态在战斗。 你会为此 杀死数百万人，对吗？ 那就继续下去。 在一百万年、 两百万年或五万年之后， 这是我们要的生活方式吗？ |
| D: Well, somehow we have done it so much that it doesn’t seem different. It seems that that is what we’ve always done and that is in our nature to do that. | 丁：不知怎么的，我们这样做了 太多，看起来没有什么不同。 似乎这就是我们一直在做的事， 这么做是我们的天性。 |
| K: All right. If you say it is my nature to be cruel – all right. | 克：好吧。如果你说 残忍是我的天性——好吧。 |
| D: Well, I don’t say it is my nature. But you say then people are like that, people have wars, you know. | 丁：我没说这是我的天性。 但你说人就是这样的， 人会有战争，你知道的。 |
| K: All right. Then live violently. You see what I am trying to say? I am saying, find out, not from me or from somebody else, find out for yourself. Bien? You haven’t said a word. | 克：好吧。那就暴力地生活。 你明白我想说什么吗？ 我是说，去弄个明白， 而不是从我或别人那里， 自己去弄个明白。 Bien？ 你一句话也没说。 |
| C: I have listened. | 丙：我听了。 |
| K: That’s just it! | 克：就是这样！ |
| B: Sir, in learning mathematics we have our teacher to teach us. Now in this area they keep on saying... | 乙：先生，在学习数学时， 我们有老师教我们。 现在，在这个领域， 他们一直在说 |
| K: Then they are telling you what to – about you! | 克：那他们就是在告诉 你应该怎样——关于你的！ |
| B: Are they two different things? | 乙：这是两码事吗？ |
| K: Of course. There you are being informed about history – right? What kind of wars, what kind of kings, what kind of society – right? History, what does that mean? What is history, the meaning of that word? | 克：当然。在那里， 他们告诉你历史——对吗？ 什么样的战争，什么样的国王， 什么样的社会——对不对？ 历史，那是什么意思？ 什么是历史， 这个词的含义是什么？ |
| B: The history of human beings. | 乙：人类的历史。 |
| K: Yes. The history of human beings. You are the history of human beings. You are a human being. It is all about you. Not only you, about the whole. So, you are not learning to enquire, that’s what I am saying. Right? | 克：是的。人类的历史。 你就是人类的历史。 你就是人类。 历史是关于你的一切。 不仅是关于你， 关于整个人类。 所以，你们没有学会探究， 这就是我要说的。 对吗？ |
| A: It seems so, sir. I find it difficult to... | 甲：看起来是这样， 先生。我觉得很难 |
| K: This is not only one talk, we are going to have a series of discussions if you are willing. If you are willing we are going to have a series of discussions, every Sunday morning we will go at it. But you must also, if I may suggest, go into it, not just say, ‘Well, I will wait until Sunday morning’. Go into it, find out. I give you – not I give you – You are given a whole week to see if you can pass the examination! | 克：这不仅仅是一次谈话， 如果你愿意， 我们将进行一系列讨论。 如果你愿意， 我们会进行一系列的讨论， 每个星期天上午 我们都会进行讨论。 但是，如果我可以 建议你的话，你也必须去探询， 而不是说，“好吧， 我会等到周日上午”。 深入其中，查明真相。 我给你们 ——不是我给你们—— 你们有整个一星期的时间， 看看你们能否通过考试！ |
