克里希那穆提 - 我们要如何才能转变自己？

OJ77D1 - 我们要如何才能转变自己？第一次公开讨论会欧亥，美国 1977年4月5日纯文本版本
0:27 Every Tuesday and Thursday, for the next two weeks, we’ll have dialogues. The word ‘dialogue’ – I looked it up in the dictionary – means putting our thoughts into words. And a dialogue between friends, and I hope this is that way, implies that there are no arguments, no assertions, that two friends are talking over together their problems, amicably, frankly and easily, because they are friends. So, perhaps, we could approach these dialogues that way. That is, if you could ask a question and go into it very, very deeply, patiently, and see the whole implications of those questions. And so, what shall we talk about this morning, together?	0:27 在接下来两周中的每周二和周四，我们将会进行对话。「对话」这个词 ——我在词典中查阅了它的意思—— 它的意思是：将我们的思想用语言文字表达出来。而一场朋友之间的对话——我希望我们的对话也是如此—— 意味着没有争论、没有断言，两个朋友在一起讨论他们的问题，友善地、坦诚地、轻松地讨论问题，因为他们是朋友。所以，我们或许也可以用这种方式来进行这几次对话。也就是说：你可以问一个问题，然后非常非常深入地、耐心地探究它，从而看到这些问题所有的暗示含义。那么，今天早上我们要一起来谈些什么呢？
2:03 Questioner: I wonder if we might talk about mysticism, and whether or not there actually is mysticism, or is mysticism, inevitably, an escape?	2:03 问：我想我们是不是可以来谈论一下神秘主义，是否真的存在「神秘主义」，还是说神秘主义不可避免地会成为一种逃避？
2:16 K: Mysticism. Could you talk about mysticism?	2:16 克：神秘主义。你能否谈论下「神秘主义」？
2:21 Anything else?	2:21 还有其他问题吗？
2:23 Q: Yes. I have a problem which I have been exploring for weeks and weeks and weeks and it is this: to see the false as false, to see the true as true, and to see the truth in the false. It is this that’s thirsting my brain.	2:23 问：是的。我有一个问题，我连续数周一直在探索这个问题，这个问题就是：如实看到虚假，如实看到真实，去看到虚假的真相。这就是我的大脑热切追求的东西。
2:48 K: That’s your question, is it, sir?	2:48 克：这就是你的问题，对吧，先生？问：是的，我不明白它
2:50 Q: Yes, I don’t understand it…	2:50 克：好的，我们将会来探讨它。还有其他的吗？
2:52 K: All right, we’II go into that. Anything else?	2:52 问：是否存在诸如“神圣的艺术” 或“永恒的艺术”这样的东西，
3:01 Q: Is there such a thing as sacred or timeless art, or is all art conditioned?	3:01 还是说：所有的艺术都是局限的？
3:08 K: Is there something that’s sacred, unconditioned, not touched by thought. Is that it, sir?	3:08 克：是否存在某种神圣的、毫无局限的、不被思想所触及的事物。是这个问题吗，先生？
3:17 Q: Yes, sir.	3:17 问：是的，先生。
3:20 Q: I am asking a question, not about the nature or the meaning of belief in traditional religions because mere reason shows that it creates duality and strengthens the self. Instead, I am asking why did the call to believe arise in these religions in the first place?	3:20 问：我要问一个问题，这个问题并不是关于传统宗教中信仰的本质或意义，因为单纯的理性表明了宗教会创造出二元性，并增强那个「自我」。相反，我要问的是：为什么在这些宗教中，它们首先会呼吁人类要拥有信仰？
3:50 Q: I would like to talk about reality, the nature of it.	3:50 问：我想要谈论一下「实相」，「实相」的本质。
3:58 K: She would like to talk about reality.	3:58 克：她想要谈论一下「实相」。
4:01 Q: Yes.	4:01 问：是的。
4:06 Q: In your writings, you refer to ‘the Beloved.’ What is this Beloved and…	4:06 问：在你的著作中，你提到了「至爱者」。这个「至爱者」是什么，以及
4:13 K: All right, sir. Look, it is not what I write and what I think. What is your questions, not my question? Don’t say, ‘Well, you have written this, and what do you mean by that?’ Could we honestly, simply and easily talk about what we are concerned, each one is concerned?	4:13 克：好吧，先生。你瞧，这并不是我写的，也不是我的想法。（我想说）你的问题是什么，而不是关于我的问题？不要说，“啊，你写过这个东西，你所说的这个东西是什么意思呢？ ” 我们能否诚实地、简单地、轻松地谈论一下我们所关心的东西，我们每个人都关心的事情？
4:39 Q: How can I bring this inward psychological revolution?	4:39 问：我要如何才能带来这种内在的心理上的革命？
4:44 K: How is it possible to bring about psychological revolution?	4:44 克：我们如何才可能带来心理上的革命？
4:49 Q: How can I be emptied of my content?	4:49 问：我要如何才能清空“我的内容”？
4:59 Q: The content of consciousness.	4:59 问：意识的内容。克：我们意识的内容。
5:01 K: The content of one’s consciousness. Now, just a minute, that’s enough questions. Let’s see. Now, what shall we take among all these questions?	5:01 好了，请稍等片刻，我们已经有足够多的问题了。让我们来看一下它们吧。现在，在所有这些问题中，我们应该选择哪一个呢？
5:13 Q: Content of consciousness.	5:13 问：意识的内容。问：革命。
5:16 Q: Revolution.	5:16 克：我们是不是应该选你们真正关心的问题，
5:20 K: Shall we take the question, if you are really concerned, not what somebody has said, but your own problem. You understand, sir? Your own concern about what is truth, why religions have so separated themselves and we are caught in it, what do you mean by the false and the true, could one talk about the unconditioned, is there such a thing as the unconditioned, sacred, untouched by thought, and is it possible to really bring about transformation in oneself? These are all the various questions, more or less, that have been put to each other. So, which shall we take first?	5:20 不是别人所说的问题，而是你自己的问题。你们理解了吗，先生？你自己所关心的问题：什么是「真理」，为什么宗教如此地分裂了自己，而我们会陷入于这种分裂？你所说的「虚假」和「真实」是什么意思呢，我们可以来谈论一下那个「没有局限」的事物吗，是否存在这种毫无局限的、神圣的、未被思想所触及的事物，我们是否可能真正带来内心的转变？这些差不多就是我们向对方提出来的各种问题。那么，我们先来回答哪一个呢？
6:28 Q: What does it mean to be serious about those questions? What does it mean to be serious?	6:28 问：“认真对待”这些问题是什么意思？ “认真”是什么意思？
6:34 K: What does it mean to be serious? I don’t know. I do know for oneself when one is very, very serious, for oneself, but I don’t know what you mean by being serious. You may translate it in so many ways, that in seriousness there is no humour, no laughter, seriousness committed to a particular ideology, and also one can be quite serious neurotically, and so on, so on. I think we generally mean by seriousness, that one is really concerned, deeply concerned with something that we want to solve, we want to understand or go into.	6:34 克：“认真”是什么意思？我也不知道。当我非常非常认真时，我确实知道它是什么意思，我自己知道，但我不知道你所谓的“认真”是什么意思。你或许会以无数种方式来翻译诠释它，比如在认真中是没有幽默的，没有笑声的，认真地致力于某种意识形态，此外，我们极度的认真也可能是神经质的表现，等等等等。我认为通常来说，我们所说的“认真”的意思是：我们非常地关心、极度地关心某个问题，这个问题是我们想要解决的，我们想要了解或探究的。
7:41 Q: I’d like to talk about fear.	7:41 问：我想要来谈论一下「恐惧」。
7:45 K: Like to go into the question of fear.	7:45 克：想要来探讨一下关于「恐惧」的问题。
7:54 Q: Could you please say something about the relationship of individuality to consciousness? I think there’s lot of confusion about where individuality fits in. If I am consciousness and all the contents are me, then where does individuality fit in?	7:54 问：你能否谈一下关于个体性与意识的关系？我认为我们非常困惑：不知道要将「个体性」安放在何处。如果我就是「意识」，而所有的（意识）内容就是我，那么「个体性」应该放在什么位置呢？
8:16 K: Now, I don’t know how many questions to… all these questions, how is one to answer all the various questions? Perhaps, if we take one question amongst all this which might cover the whole field.	8:16 克：你瞧，我不知道有多少问题要回答了……所有这些问题，我们要如何来回答所有这些各种各样的问题？我们或许可以从所有这些问题中选出一个来，这个问题也许能够涵盖涉及所有的问题。
8:34 Q: Could it be reality and truth, the relationships? That might cover…	8:34 问：是不是「实相」与「真理」的问题，关系的问题？它或许就可以涵盖
8:41 K: I’m afraid it wouldn’t. That’s too an abstract subject.	8:41 克：我恐怕它并不能涵盖。这个主题太过抽象了。
8:45 Q: How does one start to transform oneself?	8:45 问：我们要如何才能开始转变自己？
8:48 K: How does one start – may we start with that question? Would that be all right with all of you?	8:48 克：我们要如何开始…… 我们可以从这个问题开始吗？大家觉得这可以吗？
9:00 Q: (Inaudible)	9:00 问：（听不清）
9:05 K: How does one start to bring about a radical, deep, psychological revolution? That’s the question, isn’t it?	9:05 克：我们要如何开启一场彻底的、深刻的、心理上的革命？就是这个问题，对不对？问：没错。
9:21 Q: Yes.	9:21 克：我们必须要非常小心地深入这个问题。
9:26 K: One has to go into this question rather carefully. First of all, we have to understand what do we mean by change? Change from this to that – right? We generally mean that. Change from what one is into what one should be. Is that change at all? You follow my question? I want to change from what I am, with my greed and all the rest of it, and change that into something much better. Right? Right, sirs? This is a dialogue, please, I’m not talking by my… So, please. 10:28 And, when there is such change, is it really a transformation? Or is it merely a reaction? Or is it a premeditated, desired end to which you want to change? You understand? And is transformation, inward psychological revolution, is that totally different from change? You understand my question? Please, let’s talk over as two friends, please. You understand? Wait, sir. Wait a minute – let me finish. There is capitalism and communism. The communism is change from capitalism – at least they think so, but coming along more or less… All political things are becoming the same, more or less. 11:53 Is that change? They talk a great deal about revolution, outward revolution, and is that revolution based on a change which is preconceived? You understand? And, therefore, conforming to a pattern already established, and therefore it’s not radical change. I wonder if I’m making myself clear.	9:26 首先，我们必须明白：我们所说的「改变」是什么意思？从这个模样变成那个模样——对吧？我们一般都是这个意思。改变自己现有的模样，变成我们应有的模样。这究竟是不是「改变」呢？你们跟上我的问题了吗？我想要改变自己现有的模样 ——我的贪婪，等等这些，将其变为某种更好的东西。对吧？对吗，先生们？这是一次对话，请注意，我并不是在自言自语所以，拜托你们了。 10:28 而当有了这样的改变时，它真的是一种「转变」吗？还是说它只是一种反应？或者说它是一种你预先想好的、渴望的目标——你想要据此来改变？你理解了吗？而这种「转变」，这种内在的心理革命，它是否和「改变」是完全不同的？你明白我的问题吗？请注意，让我们像两个朋友那样去讨论它，拜托了。你们理解了吗？等一下，先生。稍等片刻——让我先讲完。我们有资本主义和共产主义。共产主义是从资本主义演变而来的 ——至少他们是这样认为的，但在发展的过程中，它多多少少所有政治上的事情或多或少都会变成同样的东西。 11:53 这是改变吗？他们大量地谈论革命，外在的革命，然而这种革命是不是建立在某种预想的改变之上的？你们理解了吗？因此它只是在遵从某种已确立的模式，由此它并不是根本性的改变。
12:29 Q: Yes.	12:29 我不知道有没有把它讲清楚。问：讲清楚了。
12:31 Q: They seem two forms, communism and capitalism, of the same conflict.	12:31 问：共产主义和资本主义，它们看起来是同一个冲突的两种不同形式。
12:40 K: No, no, forgive me, if you… Don’t... Forget capitalism and communism. I want to change from greed to non-greed. The non-greed is already established in my mind, is already put into words. There’s a pattern to which I am conforming. Or I will conform when there is change.	12:40 克：不，不，请原谅我，如果你请不要…… 先忘了资本主义和共产主义吧。我想要改变自己：从贪婪的人变成不贪婪的人。「不贪婪」是我头脑中已经确立的东西，它已经被转化为文字词语了。于是我便有了一个可以去遵从的模板。或者说当有了改变时，我就会去遵从这个模板。
13:15 Q: It’s an idea.	13:15 问：它只是一个想法。
13:16 K: No, just not... Please… go slowly, please. First, I want to be clear that the difference between change and transformation, a mutation, if you want to use that word. Change implies changing ‘what is’ into ‘what should be.’ Right? Into ‘what should be’ is already established, by thought, by environment, by circumstances, by pressures and so on, so on. It’s already established. And when I change, I am changing from ‘what is’ into ‘what should be,’ which is conceived. Therefore, I say to myself, ‘That’s not change at all. ’ Right? It is still pursuing the same pattern, only in a different field. 14:20 So, I see that very clearly. I hope you do, too. I see that fact, that change implies a continuity of ‘what is,’ modified. Right? Whereas transformation is something entirely different. The ending of ‘what is,’ not ‘what should be.’ Am I right? This is a discussion between two friends, I’m not being logistic or reasoned and all the rest of it. Do we, as two friends – please, I really mean it – as two friends, see this, the difference between change and total ending of something?	13:16 克：不，请不要…… 请注意……让我们慢慢来，拜托了。首先，我想要搞清楚「改变」和「转变」之间的差别 ——你也可以把「转变」换成「突变」，如果你想要用这个词的话。「改变」意味着把“真实现状”变成“应该怎样”。对吧？变成已经确立好的“应有的模样”，这种“应有的模样”是思想、环境、周围的状况、压力等等事物所确立的。它是已经确立好的事物。而当我改变时，我是从“真实现状” 变成了“应该怎样” ——而“应该怎样”是我设想出来的东西。因此我会告诉自己， “这根本就不是改变”。对吧？它仍旧是在追求同样的模式 ——只是在不同的领域罢了。 14:20 所以，我非常清楚地看到了这一点。我希望你们也看到了。我看到了这个事实：即那种「改变」意味着“真实现状”修改以后的延续。对吧？然而「转变」却是某种截然不同的事物。它是“真实现状”的结束，而不是“应该怎样”。我说的对吗？这是一场两个朋友之间的讨论，我并不代表「逻辑」或「理性」等等这些东西。而是我们，作为朋友 ——请注意，我是说真的—— 作为两个朋友，我们是否看到了这一点，看到了「改变」和「彻底结束某事物」之间的区别？
15:22 Q: Are you saying that change is like, sort of, totally non-directional? In other words, when someone...	15:22 问：你是不是在说「改变」就像是某种…… 完全没有方向的东西？换句话说，当有人
15:28 K: That’s right, sir. That’s right. One is directional, the other is non-directional. But, sir, just get it, what it means. Because we have operated, our mind is always directional. Whereas, we are saying the ending is non-directional and therefore it is something tremendous and not limited.	15:28 克：说的很对，先生。没错。一个是有方向的，而另一个则是没有方向的。但是先生，请领会它，明白它的意思。因为我们一直这样运作，我们的头脑总是有方向的。然而，我们在说的是那种「结束」是没有方向的，因此它是某种无比巨大的、没有局限性的事物。
16:05 Q: If I see this very clearly, intellectually...	16:05 问：如果我在思想智力上非常清楚地看到了这一点
16:09 K: What, sir?	16:09 克：你说什么，先生？
16:10 Q: If we see, very clearly, intellectually, that all ways to change lead to no change at all, to no transformation, how is it that we don’t feel it inside?	16:10 问：如果我们在思想智力上非常清楚地看到了这一点，即：所有追求改变的途径根本无法带来改变，无法带来转变，那么我们为何没能在内心感受到这一点呢？
16:19 K: We’re going to go into that, just a minute. If we see clearly the meaning of these two, verbally, even verbally or intellectually. That is, change implies continuity of ‘what is,’ modified, directional, and transformation, mutation, total psychological revolution has no direction, is not modified. It is the ending of something. Right? Is this clear? Verbally, at least.	16:19 克：我们将会来探讨这一点的，请等一下。如果我们在口头文字上看清了这两者的含义，即使只是口头文字上或思想智力上看清。也就是：改变意味着“真实现状”的延续，它是“真实现状”修改后的延续，是有方向的，而转变、突变，或者说是「彻底的心理革命」，它则是没有方向的，也不是什么修改。它是“某个事物的结束”。对吗？这一点清楚了吗？至少口头上清楚了。
17:01 Q: Isn’t it legitimate to assume though, that if someone is in a situation where they want to, say, move out of where they are, like someone who’s standing in the middle of, you know, on the planet, and he wants to go somewhere, he has to, seemingly, at least at some point, have some sense of direction because...	17:01 问：我们是否可以做出如下这种合理正当的假设：当有人处于这样一种状况，即他们想要——比方说离开他们所在的地方，就像有个人站在 ——你知道的——地球的中央，然后他想要去某个地方，他必须要去那里，所以看起来，至少在某个时间点，他需要有某种方向感，因为
17:24 K: Wait, sir. Don’t particularise yet, we are going slowly. First, let’s understand this really very… Please, to understand this, psychologically, is more important than merely verbal understanding of it. The ‘better’ is the evil. The whole mentality, our whole mentality is ‘becoming better.’ The ‘better’ is directional, ‘the better’ is modification of ‘what is’ into ‘what should be.’ It’s all directional, preconceived, modified. Whereas, the other is a total ending of ‘what is.’ Now, if that is clear, now, which is it you, please, as a human being, want, or demand, or seeking? Sociologically, economically, psychologically.	17:24 克：等一下，先生。请先不要列举，让我们慢慢来。首先，让我们真的理解这一点请注意，从内心理解这一点，远远要比仅仅口头上理解它更重要。 “更好”就是邪恶。人类的整个思维方式，我们全部的思维方式就是去“变得更好”。 “更好”是有方向的， “更好”就是将“真实现状”修改为“应该怎样”。它全部都是有方向的、预先想好的、修修改改的。然而，另一个则是彻底结束“真实现状”。现在，如果这一点清楚了，那么你作为人类的一员，请注意：你所想要的、欲求的或寻找的是哪一个呢 ——无论是在社会上、经济上还是心理上。
18:45 Q: Is it the difference between prayer for something, and meditation to listen?	18:45 问：它是否类似于“为某事物祈祷”和 “冥想聆听”之间的差别？
18:56 K: Prayer and meditation – we are not quite discussing that, sir, if you don’t mind. Lordy! Now, which is it, as a human being, actually not theoretically, is caught up in: a directional movement or the ending of that directional movement? You understand my question, sir?	18:56 克：祈祷和冥想 ——我们并没有在讨论这个，先生，希望你不要介意。天哪！你瞧，作为人类，人真正受困于其中的是什么 ——不是理论上的：是受困于“有方向的活动”，还是“结束有方向的活动”？你理解我的问题吗，先生？
19:34 Q: One can get caught in the directional movement.	19:34 问：我们会陷入于有方向的活动。
19:36 K: You don’t understand my question?	19:36 克：你不理解我的问题吗？问：不理解。
19:39 Q: No.	19:39 问：（听不清）
19:42 Q: (Inaudible)	19:42 克：先生，当你有了一个方向
19:45 K: Sir, when you have a direction… Look, you’re looking at a map, map of America, or Europe or India – map – and if you have a direction from this place, Ojai to Nebraska, whatever that is, you have a direction. Right? So, when you are concerned with the direction, you don’t see the whole map. But we are trying to see the whole map, not direction. Right? Is that all right?	19:45 你瞧，你正在看着一张地图，一张美国地图，或者欧洲地图或印度地图 ——一张地图—— 而如果你有一个方向，要从这个地方，从欧亥去内布拉斯加州——或者无论什么地方，你会有一个方向。对吧？因此，当你关心的是那个方向时，你就看不到整张地图了。然而我们正在试图去看到整张地图，而不是某个方向。对吧？这个没问题吧？问：没问题。
20:26 Q: Yes.	20:26 克：感谢上帝！
20:30 K: Thank God! So, now which is it, as a human being, you are caught in?	20:30 所以现在，作为人类的一员，你陷入了哪种情况中？
20:43 Q: Mr Krishnamurti, I feel that when I am caught in that situation, I am very scared.	20:43 问：克里希那穆提先生，我感觉当我陷入于那种情况时，我会非常恐惧。
20:52 K: No, madame...	20:52 克：不，这位夫人
20:54 Q: We’re always seeking temporary solutions...	20:54 问：我们总是在寻找暂时的解决方案
20:57 K: No, I am asking, please don’t go off to something else. We are asking each other, as two friends – I’m not sitting on a platform, we are walking together or sitting under a tree and we are asking: which is it you, as a human being, actually are caught in, directional or non-directional?	20:57 克：不，我在问的是…… 请注意，不要偏离主题去谈别的。我们正在像两个朋友一样地彼此提问 ——我并没有坐在讲台上，我们正在一起散步，或者一起坐在树下，而我们在问：作为人类的一员，你实际上陷入了哪一种情况：「有方向的」还是「无方向的」？
21:24 Q: Directional.	21:24 问：有方向的。
21:26 Q: Non-directional.	21:26 问：无方向的。
21:28 Q: Directional.	21:28 问：有方向的。
21:30 K: I can’t hear.	21:30 克：我听不到。
21:31 Q: Always seeking a temporary direction?	21:31 问：我们总是在寻找暂时性的方向？
21:33 K: Directionally, isn’t it? Now, how, if it is directional, and you are aware that you are caught in a directional movement, how do you end that movement? That’s all the question. Not how to transform that movement into something else. You understand my question? I am going north – rather, south – I am going south, and I really want to go north, so I turn round and go. You see the difference? I break the movement of going towards the south and turn and go north. But I must know, be aware by the sun or by the compass, that I’m going south. Now, if we agree, or if we see actually that you are caught in a direction, in modified continuity of ‘what is,’ then I’m asking, how do you end that?	21:33 克：是有方向的，不是吗？那么，如果它是有方向的，并且你觉察到自己正陷入于有方向的活动中，那么你要如何结束这种活动呢？这就是全部的问题。而不是如何将那种活动转变为别的东西。你理解我的问题吗？我正在往北走——更确切地说是南方——我正在往南方走，但我其实想要去北方，于是我便转身向北走。你看到这个区别了吗？我中断了那个向南走的运动，然后转身往北走了。但我必须要通过太阳或者指南针来知道、意识到我正在往南走。所以现在，如果我们同意，或者如果我们真的看到你正陷入于有方向的活动中，陷入于“真实现状”修改后的延续中，那么我就要问了：你要如何才能结束它？
22:43 Q: There’s no way to end it, because as soon as there is a way to do it...	22:43 问：并没有什么方法可以结束它，因为一旦有了某种结束它的方法
22:46 K: All right. How does it… is it possible – put it, not the ‘how,’ the method, the system – is it possible to end that?	22:46 克：好吧。它要如何…… 我们是否可能 ——我就不说“如何”了，这就成了方法和体系了—— 我们是否可能结束它呢？问：它是可能的。
22:55 Q: Yes.	22:55 问：我们要变得客观，置身事外，保持客观。
22:57 Q: Become objective. Stand back and become objective. Step out of the circle and look at the circle.	22:57 暂时离开这个圈子，然后观察这个圈子。
23:03 K: I can’t quite hear that, sir.	23:03 克：我听得不是很清楚，先生。
23:05 Q: Step out of the circle, become more objective and look at the circle.	23:05 问：走出那个圈子，变得更加客观，然后观察那个圈子。
23:08 K: Are you doing it?	23:08 克：你在这么做吗？问：我在尝试。
23:10 Q: Trying.	23:10 克：啊，不，不。你不能只是尝试。
23:11 K: Ah, no, no. You can’t try. The compass says go south and you really want to go north. You don’t say, ‘Well, I’II try and turn round and go north,’ you turn round and go north.	23:11 指南针说要往南走，但你其实想要去北方。你不会说，“啊，我会尝试着转身，然后往北走”，你会直接转身往北走。
23:28 Q: Sir, when you use words like ‘tremendous’ and ‘revolution,’ we project the idea of a tremendous…	23:28 问：先生，当你使用诸如 “巨大”和“革命”这样的词语时，我们就会投射出一个很庞大的概念
23:35 K: Sir, that’s what I’m asking, sir. Please listen quietly, sir. As two friends. Are you aware that you are caught in a directional movement? And, if you are aware of it, is it possible to end that directional movement? It’s a very simple question. The complication comes a little later.	23:35 克：先生，这就是我在问的东西，先生。请静下来听我讲，先生。就像两个朋友一样。你是否觉察到自己正陷入于某种有方向的活动中？而如果你觉察到了这一点，你是否可能结束这种有方向的活动呢？这是一个非常简单的问题。稍后它才会变得复杂化。
24:08 Q: You stop making comparisons and accept.	24:08 问：你停止了比较并接受了。
24:14 K: I don’t quite follow.	24:14 克：我不是很懂你的意思。
24:16 Q: (Inaudible)	24:16 问：（听不清）
24:19 K: I am going, sir, please… I realise that I am caught in a directional movement, which is modified… the continuity of ‘what is’ modified. That is directional. Am I aware I’m doing this? I am violent, I should not be – non-violent. I am greedy – non-greedy. I am this and that. And all that is a modified continuity of ‘what is.’ Right? Is that clear? If that is clear, then I am asking myself, can that end? That is transformation. Not transformation of ‘what is’ into something else. Bene, sir?	24:19 克：我会来讲的，先生，拜托了我意识到我正陷入于某种有方向的活动中，它是修改后的…… 是“真实现状”修改后的延续。这就是有方向的活动。那么我是否觉察到了自己正在这么做？我是暴力的，我不应该暴力——非暴力。我是贪婪的——不要贪婪。我是这个和那个。所有这些都是我自己“真实现状”修改后的延续。对吗？这点清楚了吗？如果这一点清楚了，那么我就要问自己了：这种事可以结束吗？这才是「转变」。而不是把“真实现状”转变为别的东西。好了吧，先生？
25:14 Q: When the mind...	25:14 问：当头脑
25:16 K: No, no. Stick to this one question, sir.	25:16 克：不，不。请紧紧围绕这一个问题，先生。
25:18 Q: The mind can’t answer it because having never not been going in a direction, it seems impossible to tell if it’s possible not to go in a direction, from memory.	25:18 问：头脑无法回答它，因为它一直以来都是朝着某个方向前进的，所以它似乎难以借助记忆告诉我们“有没有可能不朝着某个方向前进”，
25:31 K: All right, sir. Are you saying our memory, our brain is so conditioned that it is always moving in a direction? Which means what?	25:31 克：很好，先生。你是不是在说：我们的记忆、我们的大脑是如此的局限，以至于它总是会朝着某个方向运动？这意味着什么呢？
25:49 Q: It means we are always trying to be somewhere other.	25:49 问：它意味着我们总是试图去别的地方。
25:52 K: No. Which means a brain, our brain is conditioned generations after generation to go in a direction. Right? Have you observed it? Have you observed your brain? Your whole process of thinking is directional. Directional either lateral or vertical, horizontal or vertical, it is always a direction. Right? Are you aware of that?	25:52 克：不。它意味着大脑，我们的大脑，世世代代以来被制约着朝着某个方向前进。对吧？你是否曾经观察过它？你观察过自己的大脑吗？你整个的思考过程是有方向性的。要么是横向思考，要么是纵向思考，水平的或者垂直的，它总会有一个方向。对吧？你意识到这一点了吗？
26:28 Q: Yes.	26:28 问：意识到了。
26:31 Q: Is the non-directional a fixed point?	26:31 问：「无方向」是一个固定的点吗？
26:39 K: Is it because we are talking about it and therefore, temporarily, it is non-directional? What is temporary is not actual. Right?	26:39 克：是不是因为我们正在谈论它，因此它暂时就变成「无方向」的了？然而暂时性的东西并不是真实的东西。对吧？
27:00 Q: Doesn’t it all cease when there is no longer someone who wants anything to change, anything to be different?	27:00 问：当某个人不再想要任何改变或者任何不同时，这一切是否就会停止了？
27:08 K: Madame, that comes a little later. But we proceed… We are already ahead when we have stated that, when we have not actually realised the directional movement, which is modified continuity of ‘what is,’ and can that end? That’s all I am asking.	27:08 克：这位夫人，那是稍后发生的事。但我们还在前进中…… 当我们给出这样的陈述，我们已经超前了，因为我们尚未真正明白那种有方向的运动 ——即“真实现状”修改后的延续，它可以结束吗？这就是所有我在问的东西。
27:33 Q: Yes.	27:33 问：可以。
27:34 K: Actually, not intellectually, not verbally and say, ‘Yes. Finished.’	27:34 克：真正结束，而不是思想智力上结束，口头上结束，嘴上说说，“是的，它结束了”。
27:41 Q: We do not see that.	27:41 问：我们还没有看到这一点。
27:42 K: Wait. And see the implications when you say, ‘It’s finished.’	27:42 克：等一下。当你说，“它结束了”，你要看到这其中的暗示含义。
27:52 Q: How can I see I move in a direction?	27:52 问：我要如何才能看到我在朝着某个方向运动呢？
27:58 K: Don’t you, madame, don’t you want to be better? If you are fragmented, don’t you want to be integrated? Don’t you want fear to end? That’s a direction.	27:58 克：这位夫人，你难道没有…… 你难道不想要变得更好吗？如果你是支离破碎的，你难道不想变得完整一体吗？你难道不想让恐惧结束吗？这就是一种方向。
28:21 Q: The looking at the fear and the attachment...	28:21 问：看着那种恐惧以及那种执著
28:26 K: Don’t take fear as an example. Please, it’s so difficult.	28:26 克：请不要拿「恐惧」当例子。拜托了，这是一个非常困难的问题。
28:34 Q: Sir, aren’t you saying that it’s not bad to be non-directional, you should be directional but know what your direction is...?	28:34 问：先生，你是不是在说：「无方向」也挺好的，你可能会有方向，但要知道你的方向是什么……？
28:42 K: No, no, no, no. No, no. We’re not saying that. To know your direction – how do you…? When you use the word ‘know,’ what do you mean by the word ‘know’?	28:42 克：不，不，不是，不是。不，不是。我们并没有在说这个。要知道你的方向——你如何才能知道……？当你使用“知道”这个词语时，你所说的“知道”是什么意思呢？
28:58 Q: You see the whole map.	28:58 问：你看到了整张地图。
28:59 K: No… Yes, sir. You have used the word ‘know,’ what do you mean by that word?	28:59 克：不……是的，先生。你使用了“知道”这个词，
29:07 Q: We mean conclusion.	29:07 那么你所用的这个词语，它是什么意思呢？问：我们的意思是「结论」。
29:09 K: No, please, two minutes. When you use the word ‘know,’ what is implied, what is the significance, what is the meaning of that word ‘to know’?	29:09 克：不，拜托了，请等两分钟。当你使用“知道”这个词语时，它暗示了什么， “知道”这个词，它的意义、它的含义是什么？
29:20 Q: Knowledge.	29:20 问：知识。
29:26 Q: To be sure of it.	29:26 问：能够确定一件事。
29:30 K: I know you because I met you yesterday. Right? You were introduced to me, and I say, ‘Yes, I know you.’ Which is what?	29:30 克：我“知道”你这个人，是因为我昨天见过你。对吧？有人把你介绍给我认识了，于是我说，“是的，我知道你。 ” 这是什么呢？问：识别。
29:40 Q: To recognise.	29:40 克：识别对方。那么这种「识别」的过程是如何发生的呢？
29:42 K: To recognise. How does that recognition process take place?	29:42 问：经由记忆。问：经由过去。
29:47 Q: From memory.	29:47 克：这是怎么回事呢？你的名字…… 有人昨天把你介绍给我认识了，
29:47 Q: The past.	29:47 你的名字被我记在了大脑里，
29:48 K: Which is what? Your name – you were introduced to me yesterday, your name is registered in the brain, and therefore it’s memory, therefore it is already known. Right? So, when I say, ‘I know,’ you are already… you are speaking from the past. You don’t see the complications of all this. All right.	29:48 由此它成了记忆，因此它已经是“已知之物”了。对吧？所以当我说“我知道”的时候，你就已经…… 你是基于「过去」而说这话的。你们并没有看到这一切的错综复杂。好吧。
30:21 So, we are asking, is it possible to end the directional movement? Not have a new direction, but have no direction at all. Because to have a new direction is another modified continuity. Right? I wonder if you see.	30:21 所以我们在问：是否可能结束这种有方向的运动？不是去找一个新的方向，而是完全没有任何方向。因为拥有一个新的方向是另一种“修改后的延续”。对吧？我不知道你们是否明白了。
30:43 Q: But we don’t know the answer to the question because we’re driving, or I’m driving in a car and if I’ve never stopped, I’ve always been going and I don’t know how to stop.	30:43 问：但我们并不知道问题的答案，因为我们正在驾驶，或者说我正在驾驶一辆汽车，我从没有停下来过，我一直在前进，我不知道如何停下来。
30:55 K: So, you have always been going in a particular direction and you don’t know how to stop. Let us take that. You have always gone along a particular road, directional, and you really don’t know how to stop. Can we start from there? Now, what is the impetus that makes you want to stop? What is the motive?	30:55 克：所以，你一直在朝着某个方向前行，而你不知道要如何停下来。让我们先来探讨这个吧。你总是沿着一条特定的道路前进，有方向的运动，而你其实并不知道要如何停下来。我们可以从这里开始吗？你瞧，是什么冲动促使你想要停下来？
31:29 Q: Desire.	31:29 那种动机是什么？问：欲望。
31:30 K: No, please, don’t…	31:30 克：不，请不要
31:33 Q: Discontent.	31:33 问：不满。
31:35 Q: See you are going the wrong way.	31:35 问：看到自己走错路了。
31:39 Q: The fact that I have crashed into one horrible thing in life against another makes me begin to see…	31:39 问：因为事实上，我遭遇了一件又一件生活中可怕之事，这让我开始看到……
31:48 K: So, your motive is the horror, or you have seen the results of direction. Is that so, or is it a conclusion? You see the difference? I can conclude it is a wrong direction. I can think it is wrong, but I may want another direction.	31:48 克：所以你的动机是「恐惧」，或者说你已经看到了「有方向运动」的后果。是这样吗？还是说它只是一个结论？你看到这其中的差别了吗？我可以得出结论说：它是一个错误的方向。我可以认为它是错误的，但我或许会想要另一个方向。
32:22 Q: Stop the one you’re on. Before you go in another direction you have to stop the one you’re on.	32:22 问：但你会停止你正在走的路。在你走另一个方向的路之前，你必须先停止你正在走的路。
32:28 K: All right. Before you go into any other direction you have to stop. What makes you stop, sir?	32:28 克：没错。在你走其他方向的路之前，你必须先要停下来。
32:34 Q: Crisis in consciousness.	32:34 是什么让你停下来的，先生？问：意识中的危机。
32:36 K: No, please don’t complicate. Crisis in consciousness – madame, do you know what that means? Crisis means a challenge, it is such a great challenge, and your response must be equal to that challenge. This is what is going on now. So, I am asking, when you say can you stop moving in a certain direction, and I am asking what makes you stop? What is the motive, what is the urge, the desire, the necessity?	32:36 克：不，请不要把它复杂化。意识中的危机——这位夫人，你知道它是什么意思吗？危机意味着「挑战」，它是一个如此巨大的挑战，而你的反应必须要敌得过这种挑战。这就是现在正在发生的事情。所以我在问：当你说“你能够停止往某个方向运动”吗？我就要问了：是什么让你停下来的？是什么动机，什么冲动，什么欲望，什么需求让你停下来的？
33:30 Q: I see I am getting nowhere.	33:30 问：我发现我哪里也去不了。问：那个方向是危险重重的。
33:32 Q: The direction is hazardous.	33:32 问：你在现实中碰壁了，你发现自己的欲望并不能给你带来什么。
33:33 Q: You crash into the wall of reality, you see my desires did nothing for me.	33:33 克：所以，当你在现实中碰壁后，你会说，“我没有从中得到任何东西”，
33:39 K: So, when you crash into reality and you say, ‘I get nothing from it,’ so your motive is reward and punishment. Be simple about it, sir. Your reward is – punishment and reward. That is directional. That is what we are brought up on, from childhood. Modern psychologists – I don’t read their books but I have friends who talk about it who have come to see me and we discuss it – they are saying, ‘We always punish people, now let us do the other: reward people.’ Which is the same thing. So are you… do you want to stop because you want a reward?	33:39 所以你的动机是“奖励与惩罚”。简单一点，先生。你的回报就是：惩罚和奖励。这就是方向。这就是我们从小到大所接受的培养教育。现代心理学家——我并没有读过他们的著作，但我的朋友们会谈论它，他们过来见我，然后我们会讨论它—— 现代心理学家说： “我们一直在惩罚人们，现在让我们来做点别的吧：去奖励他们。 ” 然而这是同一回事。所以你是不是……你想要停下来是不是因为你想要奖励？
34:45 Q: Because of discontent.	34:45 问：是因为不满之情。
34:46 K: Do you want a reward and therefore you stop? Or you are frightened of punishment and therefore you stop?	34:46 克：你是不是想要一个奖励，所以你才会停下来？或者是因为你害怕惩罚，所以才停下来？
35:00 Q: You stop because you are aware.	35:00 问：你停下来是因为你有所觉察了。
35:07 K: You stop because you are aware. Now, please, what do you mean by being aware? I’m not being facetious, I want to understand each word that you use, so that you and I both are on the same level. I may have a different meaning to that word, and you may have a different meaning to that word. So, what do you mean by being aware?	35:07 克：你停下来是因为你有所觉察了。那么请问，你所说的「觉察」是什么意思？我并没有在刻意搞笑，我想要了解你所使用的每一个词语，这样你和我两人才能处于同一个层次。我所用的词语或许有不同的含义，而你所用的这个词的含义也许和我不同。所以，你所说的「觉察」是什么意思呢？
35:34 Q: I see the futility of making effort.	35:34 问：我看到了努力的徒劳无用。
35:39 K: Do you see that, actually? That means you no longer make effort, of any kind? You see…	35:39 克：你真的看到这一点了吗？这是不是意味着你不再作出任何努力了？你瞧
35:54 Q: You realise that the thinker is fabricating the whole sense of directional living...	35:54 问：你意识到那个思想者伪造了那整个有方向的生活的感觉
36:00 K: Agreed, madame. I agree, but when you say, ‘I am aware of that fact,’ what do you mean by aware, we are asking. When you see thought, or when you realise the whole fabrication is brought about by thought, are you aware of it? And what do you mean by that word ‘aware’?	36:00 克：同意，夫人。我同意，然而当你说，“我觉察到了这个事实”时，我们在问：你所说的“觉察”是什么意思。当你看到了思想，或者当你认识到了思想所带来的全部伪造时，你真的觉察到它了吗？你所说的“觉察”这个词是什么意思呢？
36:28 Q: You see it, clearly.	36:28 问：你清楚地看到了它。
36:30 K: Now, when you use… I’m sorry, I am going to push this point if you don’t mind, when you see, what do you mean by seeing?	36:30 克：你瞧，当你使用不好意思，我还是要强调这一点，请不要介意，当你“看到”它时，你所谓的“看到”是什么意思？问：意思是“了解”。
36:39 Q: Understanding.	36:39 克：那么你所谓的“了解”又是什么意思？
36:40 K: What do you mean by understanding? Madame, this is… understanding, how? Intellectually?	36:40 这位夫人，这件事……你说“了解”，如何了解呢？思想智力上了解吗？
36:46 Q: No.	36:46 问：不是。
36:47 K: Therefore, what do you mean by that?	36:47 克：那么，你说的“了解”是什么意思？
36:50 Q: It is sort of like a dawning.	36:50 问：它有点像是“认识到了它”。
36:52 K: All right. It dawns upon you, which means what? Go into it. Don’t stop.	36:52 克：好吧。你逐渐认识到了它。这意味着什么呢？深入下去，不要停。
36:58 Q: I see the difference between being the thinker and fabricating an illusory sense of things, and being the wholeness that is the very living that life is, right now, everything.	36:58 问：我看到了这两者的差别：即成为思想者，然后伪造出对于事物虚假的感觉，和变成完整一体的，这种完整就是生活本身，此时此刻，包含一切。
37:12 K: Which means what? That you have an insight. You see the actuality of the falseness of moving in a certain direction. You are aware of the total implications of moving in a certain direction. You’ve grasped it, you’ve got it. It is in your blood. So, you don’t go back ever again in any direction.	37:12 克：这意味着什么呢？这说明你有了一种洞察。你看到了这个事实：即朝着某个方向运动是错误的。你意识到了 “朝着某个方向运动”的全部暗示含义。你领会了它，你已经明白了它。这种了解已经融入了你的血液。所以你不会再倒退回去，朝任何方向前进了。问：你只是「存在」。
37:48 Q: You just be.	37:48 克：不！
37:49 K: No! You see that’s what I want to prevent. Being – you have already...	37:49 你瞧，这就是我想要防止的事情。「存在」——你这样就已经
37:58 Q: Scratch that word, please.	37:58 问：请把这个词（存在）划掉吧。
38:08 Q: We see this clearly in a logical…	38:08 问：我们在逻辑上清楚地看到了这一点
38:10 K: You see her point, sir, what she is saying? The lady there says, ‘I see it.’ Either one sees it verbally, intellectually and therefore it is not actual seeing. And when you say, ‘I see,’ she meant, ‘I understand.’ When you say, ‘I understand,’ what do you mean by that word? Understand what is explained. I understand verbally, intellectually, grasp the meaning of words and I understand that. She said, ‘No, I don’t mean that.’ I said, have you really grasped the falseness of direction, that it leads nowhere? 39:01 Do you actually, as you perceive that tree, is it as actual, as real as that, therefore you’II never knock against that tree again. So, when you use the word ‘direction,’ when you use the word, ‘I understand,’ it means you have finished altogether moving in a modified continuity, in a direction, which means that you have ended it. Now, is that a fact? Please, if it is a fact, what has taken place in daily life? What has taken place in the movement of the brain? You understand? Because our brain is conditioned, centuries and centuries, generations after generation of millennia, to move from this to that. Right? 40:18 Improve oneself, change oneself, become oneself, identify yourself, fulfil yourself, be yourself. If you cannot, then achieve God, move always in a direction, direction. Now, when you see that direction is false, is there the brain free of that movement? You follow? Or it’s merely superficial capture of the meaning? I wonder if I am making myself clear.	38:10 克：你看到她所说的要点了吗，先生，她在说什么？这位女士在说，“我看到了它”。要么她是口头上、智力上看到了它，由此这并不是真的看到。而当你说“我看到”时，她的意思是“我理解了”。当你说，“我理解了”，你所说的「理解」又是什么意思呢？理解了对方所解释的东西。我口头上、智力上理解领会了那些话语的含义，所以我算是了解了它。但她说，“不，我不是这个意思。 ” 于是我说，你是否真的理解了「方向」的错误所在，理解了它无法带领你达到任何地方？ 39:01 你是否真的…… ——就像你看到那棵树一样，这种理解是否就像「树」一样的实际和真实，因此你永远不会再撞上那棵树了。所以当你使用“方向”这个词时，当你使用“我理解”这个词时，它意味着你已经彻底停止，不再沿着某个方向前进，不在「修改后的延续」中前行了，这意味着你已经结束了它。那么，这是一个事实吗？请注意，如果它是一个事实，那么你的日常生活中会发生什么？大脑的活动会发生什么？你理解了吗？因为我们的大脑无数世纪以来、数千年以来，世世代代一直被制约着要从这里前进到那里。对吧？ 40:18 改善自己，改变自己，成为自己，把自己认同于某事物，实现你自己，做你自己。如果你做不到，那就去追随上帝，我们总是在朝着某个方向前进。然而，当你看到「方向」是错误的，大脑是不是就会摆脱掉那种运动了？你跟上了吗？还是说它只是表面上领会了这个意思？我不知道有没有表达清楚。
41:00 Q: It stops.	41:00 问：它会停止。
41:03 K: You understand? Which means – go slowly – which means the brain has broken away from the past conditioning, so it will never function in that direction at all, because it has captured the danger of it. Because the brain demands security – I won’t go into all that for the moment – the brain demands security, and it thought it found security in a directional movement. You are following this? You are following it, madame? And the brain sees the danger of it, therefore says, ‘I can’t go in that direction.’ So, the brain itself has understood the movement, the danger – not merely a verbal understanding. I wonder if… Am I explaining something, sir?	41:03 克：你明白了吗？这意味着——让我们慢慢来—— 这意味着大脑已经挣脱了过去的制约，由此它便永远不会在那个方向中活动了，因为它已经领会了它的危险之处。因为大脑需要安全感 ——我暂时就不深入下去了—— 大脑需要安全感，然后大脑认为它已经在「有方向的运动」中找到了安全感。你理解它了吗？这位夫人，你跟上它了吗？大脑看到了它的危险所在，因此大脑说，“我不能再朝这个方向走了。 ” 所以大脑本身已经理解了那种运动、那种危险 ——不仅仅是口头上理解。我不知道你们是否
42:12 Q: But the next time it happens...	42:12 我是否已经解释了一些东西，先生？问：然而当它下次再发生的时候
42:14 K: It won’t! It never happens! That’s what I am trying to show you. It can never happen.	42:14 克：不会了！它永远不会再发生了！这就是我试图告诉你的东西。它永远不会发生了。问：所有这一切的动力……
42:23 Q: The momentum of all these...	42:23 克：不。
42:24 K: No.	42:24 问：可它还是会出现。
42:26 Q: It will come up, though.	42:26 克：这就是我在说的东西。
42:29 K: That’s what I am saying. Unless the brain itself, the structure, the whole… Sir, you know, the brain – please, I’m not a brain specialist, I haven’t read a book about brains and so on, but I have watched this movement of brain, which is really part of meditation – I won’t go into all that. The brain is conditioned, and it is conditioned to go in a certain direction: change ‘what is’ into ‘what should be.’ 43:17 It is always modifying, and in that modification it finds security, because the brain can only function when there is complete safety, properly. So, it will find safety in some neurotic belief, or it’s saying, ‘I have achieved something’ – you know, all that. Here, when the brain sees the danger of a directional movement, it, itself, stops naturally. It can never go back. Now, does this happen to you?	42:29 除非大脑本身，它的结构，那整个…… 先生，你知道的，大脑 ——请注意，我不是什么大脑专家我并没有读过任何关于大脑等等的书籍，但我已经观察过了这种大脑的运动，它其实是冥想的一部分 ——我就不深入这一切了。大脑是局限的，它被局限着往某个方向运动：将“真实现状”改变为“应当怎样”。 43:17 它总是在修改，而它就在这种修改中找到了安全感，因为只有当有了彻底的安全感后，大脑才能够正确合理地运转。所以大脑会在某种神经质的信仰中找到安全感，或者它会说，“我已经有所成就了” ——你知道的，所有这些东西。而此时，当大脑看到了方向性运动的危险，那它本身就会自然地停下来。它永远不会再回去了。那么，这样的事发生在你身上了吗？
43:59 Q: Are you saying to stop directional movement, but not movement, are you saying to stop movement altogether?	43:59 问：你是不是在说：要停止有方向的运动，但不是（停止）运动本身，还是说要彻底停止运动？
44:06 K: No, no, directional movement.	44:06 克：不，不，（是停止）有方向的运动。
44:08 Q: Is directional movement preconceived…	44:08 问：有方向的运动是预想好的吗
44:10 K: Sir, I won’t go into movement. Movement means time, time means – I won’t go into all that for the moment.	44:10 克：先生，我就不深入探讨「运动」了。「运动」意味着时间，而时间意味着 ——我暂时先不深入所有这些了。
44:19 Q: If that did happen, we wouldn’t be here.	44:19 问：如果这件事真的发生了，我们就不会在这里了。
44:22 K: No, sir. Sir, two friends are talking over together this question.	44:22 克：不是的，先生。先生，（我们就像）两个朋友在一起讨论这个问题。
44:32 Q: But aren’t we here because we’re seeking something?	44:32 问：可是我们在这里难道不是因为我们在寻求某个东西吗？
44:35 K: It’s up to you. If you are seeking something, and the speaker has nothing to give.	44:35 克：这取决于你。如果你在寻求某个东西，那么演讲者并没有什么东西可以给你。
44:43 Q: It hasn’t happened.	44:43 问：它还没有发生。
44:44 K: Wait, wait. The speaker has nothing to give. But the speaker says, let us talk over as two friends – that’s completely different. You are used to – not you, sir, particularly – you are used to being given something, told something, what to do, that is the whole function of the priest, the gurus, the authority. To me, all that is absurd. I would deny all that. So, I can’t give you anything. But I say to you, please, let’s talk it over together – which is entirely different. You understand, sir?	44:44 克：等一下，等等。演讲者不会给你任何东西。但演讲者说，让我们像两个朋友一样地讨论它 ——这是完全不同的。你们已经习惯于 ——不是特指你，先生—— 你们已经习惯于有人给你们东西，有人告诉你们一些东西，比如该怎么做，这就是牧师、古鲁和权威的全部职责。但对我来说，所有这一切都是荒谬的。我会否定所有这一切。所以我无法给你们任何东西。而我要对你们说的是：请让我们一起来讨论它 ——这是完全不同的事。你理解了吗，先生？
45:27 Q: Are you saying that if you don’t seek anything, and you allow the brain basically just to...?	45:27 问：你是不是在说：如果你不去寻找任何东西，然后你允许大脑，基本上来说只是……？
45:33 K: No sir, no, no. Don’t go on with it. No, no. It’s much more complex than that, sir, please. The brain itself is conditioned. We are taking one small section of the brain, as it were, which is functioning in a direction, that’s all. I’m not touching the rest of it. The rest of it we can go into later – the rest of it is fear, pleasure, the whole human structure. So, we’re asking – it is really a very important question if you once grasp this, that the ending of direction is the complete transformation. That means you will never seek direction, psychologically. Of course, if I want to know how to go to Santa Barbara I will ask somebody if there is a direction and so on, but we are not talking on that level.	45:33 克：不，先生，不对，不对。不要再继续讲下去了。不，不是的。它要比这复杂的多，先生，请别急。大脑本身是局限的。我们可以说只是利用了大脑的很小一部分，这部分大脑在朝着某个方向运转着，仅此而已。我就不谈其余的内容了。之后我们可以再来探讨余下的内容 ——这些内容包括恐惧、快感，以及整个人类结构。所以，我们在问—— 这真的是一个非常重要的问题，一旦你领会它的话—— 那就是“「方向」的结束”才是彻底完全的转变。这意味着你永远不会再去寻找方向 ——心理上的方向。当然了，如果我想要知道如何去圣巴巴拉市，我需要问别人往哪个方向走，等等，但我们谈论的并不是这个层面的事情。
46:44 Now, I am asking, if I may ask my friend, I say, look we have talked about forty minutes, thirty minutes, have you really got this? Have you really grasped this, does it mean anything?	46:44 现在，我在问的是：如果我可以询问我的朋友，我说：你瞧，我们已经聊了大约三四十分钟了，你真的明白它了吗？你是否真的领会了它，它是否意味着某些东西？
47:01 Q: You say transformation occurs all the time, as opposed to, occasionally, you will perhaps be at this timeless place, this place where it is seen. Perhaps, at one time it is seen, but then, as you lose that vision...	47:01 问：你说「转变」一直在发生着，相比于偶尔发生的，你或许将会处于那个“永恒之地”，你会看到这个地方。你也许曾经一度看到过它，然而，当你失去了那种洞见后
47:21 K: No. No, sir. Would you, once you realise the rattler, once you have seen the rattler and seen the danger of it, would you go back and play with it?	47:21 克：不，不，先生。一旦你意识到那是一条响尾蛇，你还会一旦你看到响尾蛇，明白了它的危险，你还会再回去和它玩耍吗？
47:31 Q: Yeah, but it stops being a rattler for a while, it turns back into something else again.	47:31 问：话虽如此，但它暂时来说并不是“响尾蛇”，它再次变回为其他东西了。
47:38 K: You see, that means we haven’t really actually seen the danger of a directional movement. That’s all. Yes, sir?	47:38 克：你瞧，这表明我们还没有真正地、切实地看到「方向性运动」的危险。仅此而已。对吧，先生？
47:46 Q: Directional movement seems to be inconsistent with nature...	47:46 问：方向性的运动似乎与自然界相矛盾
47:50 K: No, sir, please.	47:50 克：不，先生，请别
47:52 Q: I don’t understand how…	47:52 问：我不理解为何
47:53 K: I explained at the beginning, sir, if you don’t mind if I repeat it again, we said: change and transformation. Don’t forget what we started out with. Change implies modified continuity.	47:53 克：先生，我在一开始就已经解释过了，如果你不介意的话，让我再重复一遍吧，我们说：「改变」和「转变」。不要忘记我们是从哪里开始的。「改变」意味着修改后的延续。
48:09 Q: Does a caterpillar change into a butterfly, or...?	48:09 问：毛毛虫不是会蜕变成蝴蝶吗，还是说……？
48:13 K: Leave the caterpillar, poor thing, it’s a marvellous thing, leave it alone. I am talking of human beings. Human beings think they are changing, when actually the change is modification of ‘what is.’ That’s all we are saying. The modification of ‘what is,’ they consider is change. I say that’s not change at all. The ending of ‘what is’ is radical transformation.	48:13 克：先别管毛毛虫，可怜的小家伙，这是一件不可思议的事情，但我们先别管它了。因为我在谈论的是人类。人类认为自己正在“改变”，然而实际上这种“改变” 只是“真实现状”的修修改改。这就是所有我们在说的东西。 “真实现状”的修改被人们认为是「改变」。但我说：这根本就不是「改变」。「真实现状的结束」才是彻底的转变。
48:54 Look, sirs, make it much simpler: one is violent, human beings are violent for various reasons I won’t go into, from the beginning of the animal to now, we are violent. Now, we have a direction, which is to become non-violent. There has been the philosophy of it in India, Tolstoy, Gandhi – you follow? The whole mess of all that. Sorry, I consider it mess, you may not. So, we are conditioned to a modified change, and I say when we discuss transformation, how to bring it about, I say, look at these two words, first. The word ‘change’ implies that. The word ‘transformation’ implies the ending of this movement of change – the ending, psychologically. Not the caterpillar, the… and so on, so on.	48:54 你瞧，先生们，让我讲得更简单一些：某人是暴力的，由于各种原因，人类是暴力的，我就不深入这些了，从人类作为动物开始到现在，我们是暴力的。而现在，我们终于有了一个方向，那就是变得「非暴力」。在印度有着关于「非暴力」的哲学，托尔斯泰、甘地——你们跟上了吗？所有这些乱七八糟的东西。很抱歉，我认为它是乱七八糟的东西，你们或许不会。所以我们被那种「小修小补的改变」所制约，而我说当我们讨论「转变」，如何带来「转变」的时候，我说，先看看这两个词语。「改变」这个词是这个意思。而「转变」这个词则意味着这种“改变的运动”的结束 ——结束，心理上结束它。不是毛毛虫，等等这些东西。
50:14 Now, after talking over together for forty minutes, or more or less, two friends say, please, have we understood each other?	50:14 而现在，在一起谈论了四十分钟以后，差不多四十分钟以后，请注意，这两位朋友说，我们是否彼此理解了对方？
50:26 Q: Verbally we understand.	50:26 问：口头上我们理解了。
50:30 K: Wait, wait. So, you have not understood.	50:30 克：等等，等一下。所以你还是没有理解。
50:33 Q: I have not understood…	50:33 问：我还是不理解
50:34 K: Wait. So, you say, now let’s begin again. I have not understood – why? Look, sir, careful. Wait, wait. You and I are great friends – I am your husband or your wife, we are holding hands. You would say, when I tell you something very extraordinary for me, deep, you say, ‘I don’t understand’? Would you tell her that?	50:34 克：请稍等。所以你说：现在让我们重新开始吧。我还是不理解——为什么？你瞧，先生，请仔细一点。等等，等等。你和我是非常要好的朋友 ——我是你的丈夫或你的妻子，我们手牵着手。当我告诉你一些对我而言意义非凡的东西时，某些我内心深处的东西时，你会说，“我不理解”吗？你会这样子告诉她吗？
51:07 Q: If I didn’t understand.	51:07 问：如果我不理解的话（我会这样说）。
51:08 K: Wait. No. What is your relationship, first? She’s trying to tell you something she feels most profoundly. And you say, ‘Sorry, I don’t understand’ Would you say that?	51:08 克：等一下。不。首先，你们之间的关系是什么？她试图告诉你一些她内心最深处感受到的东西。而你说，“对不起，我并不理解”，你会这么说吗？问：我会沉默。
51:26 Q: I would say nothing.	51:26 克：为什么？
51:31 K: Why?	51:31 问：因为我会
51:36 Q: Because I would…	51:36 问：你难道不会有同感吗？
51:46 Q: Wouldn’t you have to feel it?	51:46 克：有同感。你所说的“同感”是什么意思呢？
51:53 K: Feel it. What do you mean by the word ‘feel’? You see, I am very critical of words, sorry, forgive me, which is not avoidance, which is not escape, which is not merely argumentation or avoidance. I am saying one has to be terribly careful in investigating, the usage of words.	51:53 你瞧，我对于词语是非常挑剔的，很抱歉，请原谅我，这并不是在回避，也不是在逃避，这不仅仅是争论或回避问题。我在说的是：一个人必须要非常小心仔细地去研究词语的用法。
52:16 Q: Well, if you can’t understand it and you can’t feel it, then what..?	52:16 问：那么，如果你无法理解它，你也无法有同感的话，那该怎么办……？
52:19 K: No. Which is what? Either you feel with your touch, smell, taste, or you think. Now, when you say, ‘I don’t understand,’ we are saying is it emotional that makes you understand, a feel that makes you understand? Please, you are not answering my question. After forty minutes, we are holding hands together, and I say to you, please, listen to what I have got to tell you. It’s most tremendously important, because it will perhaps change our relationship entirely. And listen to me, pay attention to what I am saying, and he tells you. And at the end of forty minutes you say, ‘Sorry, I don’t understand what you are talking about.’ Would you say that to your girlfriend?	52:19 克：不。这是什么意思呢？要么你通过你的触觉、嗅觉、味觉感受到了它，要么你通过思考（有了同感）。而现在，当你说，“我不理解”的时候，我们在说的是：是那种情感让你理解的吗，是那种感受让你理解的吗？请注意，你不是在回答我的问题。在经过了四十分钟以后，我们一起手牵手，然后我对你说：拜托了，请听听我必须要告诉你的东西。这是无比重要的东西，因为它或许能够完全地改变我们的关系。所以，请听我讲，专注于我所说的东西，然后他告诉了你一些东西。而在最后，在经过了四十分钟以后，你却说， “很抱歉，我并不理解你在说些什么。”
53:20 Q: Yes.	53:20 你会对你的女朋友说这话吗？问：会的。
53:22 K: You would?	53:22 克：你会这样说？
53:25 Q: No, because…	53:25 问：不会，因为
53:27 K: I don’t know, don’t jump on me! What kind of relationship have you then?	53:27 克：我不知道，不要骂我！那时你们有着怎样的关系呢？
53:39 Q: Honest.	53:39 问：我们很诚实。
53:40 K: You have no relationship at all, apparently.	53:40 克：很显然，你们并没有任何关系。
53:43 Q: I have relationship when I say I don’t understand, at that point. When I say I don’t understand, at that point I do have relationship.	53:43 问：当我说“我不理解”时，在那一刻，我和对方是有关系的。当我说“我不理解”时，在那一刻，我和对方确实是有关系的。
54:00 Q: There’s no love.	54:00 问：他们之间并没有爱。
54:02 K: That’s it, sir. There’s not even affection to understand something. If you and I had affection – if you had affection and I had affection for you, and I say, look, for God’s sake, do look at this and, because you have affection for me, or love for me, and what I say becomes important to you.	54:02 克：正是如此，先生。你甚至都没有想要去理解它的情感。如果你和我之间有感情的话—— 如果你对我有感情，而我也对你有感情的话，那么当我说：瞧，看在上帝的份上，请真的去看看它，而由于你对我有感情，或者你对我有爱，那么我所说的东西对你来说就会变得很重要。
54:32 Q: ‘I’m sorry I don’t understand.’	54:32 问：“很抱歉，我还是不理解”。
54:38 K: So our relationship, sir – we are not friends. I tell you I am your friend, you say, ‘Buzz off, it means nothing to me.’ And I say, look, please, this is one of the most fundamental things in life that you must understand, and I tell you as a wife, as a husband, as a girlfriend, as a boyfriend holding your hand, kiss you, everything. I say, look. And you don’t even say at the end of forty minutes, ‘I really don’t see what you’re talking about.’ I don’t think you say that to your girlfriend. She would leave you the next minute.	54:38 克：所以我们的关系，先生 ——我们还不是朋友。我告诉你：我是你的朋友，而你说，“滚开，这对我来说毫无意义。 ” 而我说，请你去看一下它，这是生命中最根本的事情之一 ——而你必须要了解它，而我是作为妻子、作为丈夫、作为女朋友、作为男朋友来告诉你这件事的，我握着你的手，我亲吻你，我做了一切事情。然后我说，去看看它吧。所以在四十分钟过后，你更加不会说， “我其实并不明白你在说什么”了。我认为你不会对你的女朋友说这话。否则她下一分钟就会离你而去。问：那是最不可能跟她说的话了。
55:24 Q: Her last words.	55:24 问：我们不会这么说是因为我们不想要去伤害对方，但是
55:27 Q: We wouldn’t say it because we wouldn’t want to hurt, but...	55:27 克：先生，这不是一个关于伤害的问题。
55:36 K: Sir, it’s not a question of hurt. We don’t understand what relationship is.	55:36 我们并不了解关系是什么。
55:50 Q: Krishnamurti...	55:50 问：克里希那穆提
55:52 K: Do think about it a minute. We don’t understand what relationship means. Because I come along and say, look, let us talk as two friends, which implies care, affection, love, consideration, involvement, commitment, and you sit there and say, ‘You go on talking, but...’ You would never say that to your wife or husband or girlfriend or boyfriend because you are involved in it.	55:52 克：请好好思考它一会儿。我们并不明白「关系」意味着什么。因为我过来了然后说：瞧，让我们像两个朋友一样地聊天，这意味着关怀、感情、爱、关心、参与、忠诚，而你却坐在那里说，“你继续讲吧，但是……” 你永远不会对你的妻子或丈夫、女朋友或男朋友说这话，因为你们都会参与其中。
56:26 Q: Please explain it again.	56:26 问：请你再解释一遍。
56:33 Q: I don’t agree.	56:33 问：我不同意。
56:35 K: What is it you don’t agree with, sir?	56:35 克：你不同意的是什么，先生？
56:37 Q: If I don’t understand someone, I don’t care if I love them or not, I’II tell them that I don’t understand. And it may be the end of our relationship but I have to take that chance.	56:37 问：如果我不理解某人，我并不会在乎我是否爱他们或是不爱，我会告诉他们：我不理解。这可能会成为我们关系的终点，但我必须要去冒险一试。
56:46 K: Therefore, you are not concerned with relationship.	56:46 克：所以你并不关心「关系」。
56:50 Q: Not as much as I am understanding.	56:50 问：并没有像我关心「自己的了解」那样关心它。
56:53 K: No, relationship is the only thing in life.	56:53 克：不，关系是生命中唯一的东西。
57:03 Q: What is relationship?	57:03 问：什么是「关系」？
57:05 K: That’s just it, we’II go into that. What is relationship? It’s a very complex question. What is relationship? To be related to somebody. Is it merely a physical attachment, sex and all that? Are you related then? What do you mean by ‘relationship’? When you say it’s my wife, my girlfriend, boy, husband, whatever it is, my father, what do you mean by those words, what is the significance, the depth of those words?	57:05 克：问得好，让我们来探究一下它。什么是关系？这是一个非常复杂的问题。什么是关系？和某人产生联系。它仅仅是一种身体上的依恋吗：性爱，等等这些？那时你们是彼此联系着的吗？你们所说的“关系”又是什么意思呢？当你说：这是我的妻子、我的女朋友、男朋友、丈夫，无论什么，我的父亲，你说的这些词语是什么意思呢，这些词语的意义是什么，它们的深层含义是什么？
57:47 Q: Relationship is loving and caring.	57:47 问：关系就是爱与关怀。
57:50 K: But the actual fact. What do you mean by relationship?	57:50 克：但现实中的事实是什么。你们所谓的“关系”是什么意思？
57:54 Q: Sharing. Relating. Experiencing something together.	57:54 问：分享，联系，共同体验到某些东西。
58:01 K: Are you sharing?	58:01 克：你在分享吗？问：我在尝试。
58:03 Q: Trying.	58:03 克：请不要尝试，先生。
58:06 K: Don’t try, sir, please. You’re not serious.	58:06 你不是认真严肃的。
58:12 Q: To give your attention to someone is relating.	58:12 问：将你的注意力集中在某个和你有关联的人身上。
58:15 Q: To be free of attachment to another.	58:15 问：摆脱掉对他人的执著。
58:20 Q: I think even when we aren’t aware of relationship, it exists.	58:20 问：我认为即使当我们没有感知到关系的时候，它也存在着。
58:24 K: I am related to my wife. What does that mean? Facts, not theories, suppositions, and hopes and what I would like, but facts, everyday fact.	58:24 克：我和我的妻子有关系，这意味着什么？这里说的是事实，不是理论、猜想和希望，以及我理想中的关系，而是事实，日常生活中的事实。问：我们共享一个姓氏。
58:38 Q: We share the last name.	58:38 克：我们共享一张床？
58:40 K: We share the bed?	58:40 问：有时候会共享。克：这就是全部了。
58:42 Q: Sometimes.	58:42 问：名字，我们还共享一个名字。
58:44 K: That’s about all.	58:44 克：先生，你还是不够…… 你还是没有深入这个问题。
58:46 Q: The name, we share the name.	58:46 问：关系和这一点有关：那就是意识到
58:47 K: Sir, you are not being... you are not going into it.	58:47 我们都是同一个事物的一部分。
58:52 Q: Relationship has to do with realising that we’re all part of the same. That each is part of each other and that you are part of humanity is relationship.	58:52 你中有我，我中有你，意识到你是人类的一部分，这就是关系。
59:01 K: That’s just theories.	59:01 克：这只是一些理论。
59:04 Q: So, we don’t know relationship.	59:04 问：所以，我们还是不了解「关系」。
59:06 K: Please, madame, as somebody says, we really don’t know what relationship is.	59:06 克：请注意，这位夫人，就像有人说的，我们其实并不知道什么是关系。
59:12 Q: Relationship is relating to the other as yourself, I see you as myself speaking.	59:12 问：关系就是「爱人如己」，我看到你讲话就好像我自己在讲话一样。
59:18 K: That’s just an idea.	59:18 克：这只是一个观念。问：它不是观念。
59:20 Q: No.	59:20 克：等等，等等！这位夫人，让我们慢慢来深入它。
59:21 K: Wait, wait! Go into it slowly, madame. You are all coming to… you all have conclusions about it. I haven’t. No, I refused conclusions. I refuse – forgive me, as a friend – I say, my friend, my lady, please, don’t come to conclusions. Let’s look at it. Let’s start as though we don’t know about it. Right? Then we can learn an infinite lot. But if you say, ‘Yes, I know.’ You know, if you start with certainty you end up in doubt. Right? But if you doubt, you’II end up in certainty. But we start the other way, we are all certain.	59:21 你们全都有了…… 你们全都已经有了关于它（关系）的结论。但我并没有。我没有，我拒绝结论。我拒绝——请原谅我，我作为你的朋友，说：我的朋友，我的夫人，请不要妄下结论。让我们来看一下它。让我们从好像一无所知开始。对吧？然后我们就可以学到无限多的东西。但如果你说，“是的，我知道”。你瞧，如果你从「确定」开始，那你就会以「怀疑」收尾。对吗？但如果你心存怀疑，那么你最后就会获得「确定」。但我们却是反其道而行之，我们都已经「确定」了。
1:00:20 So, let’s find out, if you are willing – what time is it?	1:00:20 所以，如果你们愿意的话，让我们来把它搞清楚吧 ——现在几点了？
1:00:26 Q: Five to twelve.	1:00:26 问：十二点差五分。克：十二点差五分。
1:00:27 K: Five to twelve. Briefly. You haven’t yet solved this problem which we started out with. This always happens. I want to find out deeply, with your help, and you want out deeply with my help, in exploring, what does it mean to change and what does it mean to transform one’s… Transformation. We said any form of change is a continued… modified continuity, which is the essence of mediocrity.	1:00:27 那我长话短说吧。你们甚至都还没有解决我们刚开始提出的问题。常常会发生这种事情。我想要在你的帮助下去深入地发现，而你也想要在我的帮助下去深入地发现，去探究「改变」意味着什么，「转变」又意味着什么，转变我们的转变。然后我们说：任何形式的“改变”都是一种（原有事物的）延续…… 一种小修小改之后的延续，而这就是「平庸」的本质。
1:01:19 Q: Mr Krishnamurti, what happens if we end direction?	1:01:19 问：克里希那穆提先生，如果我们结束了「方向」，那时会发生什么呢？
1:01:26 K: I am saying... What happens when there is an end?	1:01:26 克：我在说的是…… 当有了那种结束后，会发生什么呢？
1:01:31 Q: Are we coming in a vacuum?	1:01:31 问：我们会进入“虚无”中吗？
1:01:34 K: Oh, no, no, no. That’s just it, sir. You haven’t ended it, and therefore you have never found it. You have already come to a conclusion. Do we enter into a vacuum, is there nothingness, is it annihilation? You follow? You haven’t really answered the question whether you have ended it. Then you will find out something totally different.	1:01:34 克：哦，不，不，不。是这样的，先生。你还没有结束它，所以你永远找不到答案。你已经有了一个结论。我们会进入“虚无”中吗？那里会是一片空无吗？那会是一场湮灭吗？你跟上了吗？你还没有真正地回答这个问题：即你是否结束了它？（只有回答了它）你才会发现某种截然不同的事物。
1:02:02 So, I am asking after an hour, holding your hand, we have been friends – and I really mean it, we have been friends, and you feel probably, temporarily, poor chap, let’s be friends with him because he is talking so much about it – and I say, look, we have talked forty minutes, have you understood this simple, fundamental fact? Understood, in the sense, not intellectually but it’s in your blood so that you will never again go in any direction.	1:02:02 所以，在经过了一个小时以后，我在问你，我握着你的手，我们是朋友 ——我是说真的，我们一直是朋友，而你或许会暂时觉得：可怜的家伙，就让我们和他做个朋友吧，他已经为此滔滔不绝讲了这么多 ——而我说，瞧，我们已经聊了四十分钟了，你是否已经理解了这个简单的、基本的事实？这里「理解」的意思并不是思想智力上了解，而是融入你血液的了解，由此你便永远不会再朝着任何方向前进了。
1:02:48 Q: Is it that we move together when we are talking?	1:02:48 问：关系是不是当我们交谈的时候，我们在一同前行？
1:02:51 K: Have you done it, madame?	1:02:51 克：这位夫人，你这样做了吗？问：我认为我已经
1:02:53 Q: I think I have...	1:02:53 克：这意味着你已经结束了「方向」。
1:02:54 K: That means you have ended direction. After an hour. See the importance of it, sir, for God’s sakes.	1:02:54 在经过了一个小时后。看在上帝的份上，先生，请看到它的重要性。
1:03:10 Q: How might I understand?	1:03:10 问：我怎么才能理解呢？
1:03:12 K: See the importance of it. We want success. That’s a direction – sociologically, politically, religiously, in every way we want to be… achieve something, become something, gain something. That’s a direction. When we conform, imitate, that’s a direction. I say that is the very core of mediocrity. That’s what we are – except the present company, you are all mediocre.	1:03:12 克：看到它的重要性。我们想要成功。这就是一个「方向」 ——无论是社会上、政治上，还是宗教上，我们在每一个领域里都想要成为…… 都想要有所成就，成为某号人物，获得某些东西。这就是「方向」。当我们去遵从、去模仿的时候，这就是「方向」。而我说：这正是「平庸」的本质核心。这就是我们的现状 ——除了你眼前的这个同伴，你们全都是平庸的。
1:04:00 Q: How do you stop..?	1:04:00 问：你是如何停止……？
1:04:05 K: Which means, can you end direction?	1:04:05 克：这意味着，你是否能够结束「方向」？
1:04:11 Q: You can end direction when you become established in the non-directional. When the minds transcends and finds its own nature, which is pure consciousness, which is non-direction, and you experience non-direction and direction at the same time, then you have solved the problem.	1:04:11 问：当你能驻留于「无方向」中。当头脑超越并发现它自身的本质 ——它的本质就是纯粹的意识，就是「无方向」—— 那时你就可以结束「方向」了。那时你会同时经验到「无方向」和「方向」，于是你就解决了那个问题。
1:04:30 K: No, no, you are off the mark. Forgive me, sir, you are off the mark. You haven’t even listened.	1:04:30 克：不，不，你已经离题了。请原谅我，先生，你离题了。你甚至都没有聆听。
1:04:40 Q: It’s from the known, the past, directed from the known all the time – right? And from the known, it becomes memory which is the past…	1:04:40 问：它来自于已知，来自于过去，它一直都是指向「已知」的——对吧？从「已知」中，它变成了记忆 ——记忆就是过去
1:04:49 K: Look, sir, when you go to school, in the school you are told you must be as clever as ‘A.’ You are given marks. All directional – you understand? – competitive, which brutalises people, children. You have seen the American children – oh, you are all American, sorry! So, from childhood till you die, be something, become something, achieve something, be a millionaire, become the president, become the governor You follow? Move out. Which is all directional. 1:05:42 And if you are religious, you say, ‘Well, I must be the right hand of Jesus,’ or God, or whatever it is. So, you are all trained, conditioned to accept this norm. Somebody comes along, like me, a poor chap, and says, look, just look what you are doing. You haven’t the time, you haven’t the patience, you won’t listen. I say just look what you are doing. The directional movement produces violence, hatred – you follow? – the whole thing, 1:06:22 which is modern society. And you say, ‘Yes, I understand that but I don’t know how to stop it.’ Which means you really don’t want to stop it – you follow? – – you want to go on because that is your conditioning. Or you are frightened. Frightened – if you stop what will happen? Which means you already… you are seeking a reward. When you are frightened you are seeking. If you don’t get your reward, you say...	1:04:49 克：你瞧，先生，当你去上学，在学校里，他们告诉你，你必须要像某某人那么聪明。你会得到一个分数。所有这些都是方向性的——你理解了吗？ ——互相竞争，竞争让人变得残忍，那些孩子们。你们都见过美国的孩子吧 ——噢，你们都是美国人，对不起！所以，从小开始直到你死去，你都在成为某种人，变成某种人，达到某种成就，成为一个百万富翁，成为总统，成为州长，你们跟上了吗？那种脱离自己的运动。这些全都是「方向」。 1:05:42 而如果你具有宗教性，你会说， “啊，我必须成为耶稣的得力助手”，或者上帝的得力助手，或者无论什么的得力助手。所以，你们都被训练着、制约着而接受了这种准则规范。然后有个像我这样的人 ——某个可怜的家伙——过来了，他说：瞧，看看你正在做些什么。但你没有时间，你也没有耐心，你不会聆听。我说只需要看看你正在做的事。有方向的运动会制造出暴力、仇恨——你们跟上了吗？——所有这些事情， 1:06:22 这就是现代社会。而你说，“是的，我理解这些，但我并不知道如何停止它。 ” 这意味着你其实并不想要停止它 ——你跟上了吗？ —— 你想要一切照旧，因为这是你的局限。或者说你感到害怕。害怕如果你停止了它，那么会发生什么呢？这意味着你已经…… 你正在寻求奖励回报。当你感到害怕的时候，你就会寻找。如果你无法得到奖励回报，你就会说
1:07:08 So, here we are together as friends – and I really mean it as friends. And I say, please, this is a fundamental thing to understand, the beauty of it, it is really most extraordinarily beautiful if you understand. When there is no direction, it is… it’s the heavens. So, at the end of an hour, I ask you as a friend sitting under a tree, holding hands or whatever you will, very close friends, I say have you really understood this thing?	1:07:08 所以，我们一起在这里，作为朋友 ——而我是说真的，我们是朋友。我说，拜托了，这是我们需要了解的一件基本的事情，它是很美的，它真的是最非凡美丽的东西 ——如果你能理解它的话。当没有了方向，那就是…… 那就是天堂。所以，在一个小时之后，我们坐在树下，我作为朋友问你，我们手握着手，或者无论你想要做什么，我们是非常亲密的朋友，我说：你是否真的理解了这件事？问：我们说我们是……
1:07:52 Q: We say we are...	1:07:52 克：你是否——请听好，先生——
1:07:53 K: Have you – just listen, sir – have you really understood it in your heart, in your blood, in your nerves, in your brain, you’ve captured something. If you have, then you will never again seek direction. That means you will never again want to be something, socially, psychologically.	1:07:53 你是否真的理解了它 ——用你的心灵、用你的血液、用你的神经，用你的大脑，你已经领会理解了某些东西。如果你理解了，你就永远不会再去寻找方向了。这意味着你再也不会想要成为某种人了 ——无论是在社会上还是心理上。问：这是不可能的。
1:08:19 Q: That cannot be.	1:08:19 克：你瞧。
1:08:20 K: There we are.	1:08:20 问：如果你没有方向，
1:08:22 Q: If you have no direction, it will always be with you as a shadow until the concept is removed, until the concept is gone into the essence, it shall be with you.	1:08:22 方向将总是会如影随形，除非你消除掉这个概念，除非你深入到这个概念的本质，否则你还是会带着「方向」。
1:08:34 K: What?	1:08:34 克：你说什么？
1:08:36 Q: Direction or non-direction, it doesn’t matter. If you ask a bird how it flies...	1:08:36 问：「方向」或者「无方向」，这并不重要。如果你问一只鸟儿它是如何飞翔的……
1:08:40 K: Oh, no, sir. You can ask a caterpillar which foot it puts first, and then it stops. If you ask a caterpillar which is the first… whether it puts the first leg, then he will be paralysed, he will be looking at it and won’t move. Please, sir, this is… don’t fritter it away, please.	1:08:40 克：噢，不，先生。你可以去问一只毛毛虫，它是先迈出哪只脚的，那时它就会寸步难行了。如果你问一只毛毛虫，它是哪一只脚先它是否正确迈出了第一条腿，那时它就会变得瘫痪无力，它将会看着自己的脚，却走不了路了。请注意，先生，这是…… 不要浪费时间，拜托了。
1:09:05 Q: Sir, may I ask for a – dare I ask, sorry – a confirmation or a denial. Last night when I was coming up here, someone told me I was a fool, and I was very upset. She said, you sleep in your car. Yes, I said, I will if I have to, and I did. So I was very upset. So I started to analyse then. It seemed like it wasn’t me but it must have been me, I saw I was trying to do the impossible…	1:09:05 问：先生，我能否寻求—— 抱歉，我可以斗胆向您寻求——一个确定或否定吗。昨天晚上当我来到这里后，有人说我是个傻瓜，我感到非常难过。她对我说：你还是去你的车里睡吧。我说：好，如果有必要我会这样做的，然后我真的去车里睡了。所以我感到很难过。然后我开始分析这件事。这看起来并不像是我会做的事但我的确这么做了，我发现我正在试图去做不可能的事
1:09:39 K: Madame, this is not what we are discussing.	1:09:39 克：这位夫人，这并不是我们正在讨论的东西。
1:09:42 Q: I wanted her to accept what I do, and she couldn’t. So it seems the trouble was in my head and not really what she thought, so that ended it. That’s the same thing you are talking about.	1:09:42 问：我想要她接受我所做的事，但她并没有。所以看起来问题在于我的头脑，而并不是她的想法，这件事就这样结束了。这和你所说的东西是同一回事。
1:09:54 K: You see what the difficulty is at the end of an hour? Each man is going on with his own… So that means you and I have no relationship, whatsoever. Which means if you haven’t with me, you have no relationship with anybody. Because I am an ordinary human being. You understand, sir? I am a human being. If you have no relationship with another human being, how can you have relationship with another human being?	1:09:54 克：你们都看到一个小时以后我们所面临的困难了吧？每一个人都继续在他自己的所以这意味着你和我没有产生任何关系。它意味着：如果你没有和我产生关系，你也不会与任何人产生关系。因为我是一个普通人。你理解了吗，先生？我也是一个人。如果你和另一个人没有产生关系，你又怎么可能和其他人产生关系呢？
1:10:32 Q: Is relationship direction or no direction?	1:10:32 问：「关系」是有方向的还是没方向的？
1:10:34 K: No, sir. That is a complex question, perhaps we will discuss it the day after tomorrow. But see what we have done. That we don’t care. Right, sir?	1:10:34 克：不，先生。这是一个复杂的问题，我们或许可以在后天来讨论它。但请看到我们所做的事情。我们并不在乎它。对吧，先生？
1:10:54 Q: When you talk and say ‘you,’ and I talk and say ‘I,’ who is…?	1:10:54 问：当你讲话并且说“你”，而我讲话然后说“我”，谁才是……？
1:11:01 K: We. We.	1:11:01 克：我们。我们。
1:11:04 Q: …who is you and I? Is it the body, is it the consciousness? What is it?	1:11:04 问：……谁才是“你”和“我”呢？它是指这个身体吗？它是指意识吗？它到底是什么？
1:11:09 K: Sir, when we say ‘you,’ I am talking as a human being to another human being, not as ‘I’ and ‘you.’ You understand? We’re talking as human beings. I’ve explained very carefully, that every human being is the total history of mankind. It is a fact. And if you know how to read that book, you don’t have to read any other book in the world, because everything is contained in you – man’s misery, confusion, sorrow, death, love, sex – all that is you. You are the world and the world is you. Therefore, there is no ‘you’ and ‘I’ when there is that.	1:11:09 克：先生，当我们说“你”的时候，我是作为一个人在和另一个人交谈，而不是作为“我”和“你”。你理解了吗？我们是作为人类在交谈。我已经非常小心仔细地解释过了，那就是：每一个人都是「整部人类的历史」。这是一个事实。而如果你知道如何阅读这本书的话，你就不需要再去阅读这个世界上任何其他书籍了，因为一切事物都包含在「你」之中 ——人类的痛苦、困惑、悲伤、死亡、爱、性—— 所有这些就是你。你就是这个世界，这个世界就是你。所以，当它存在时，就没有“你”和“我”的分别了。
1:12:09 Q: But isn’t that all directional?	1:12:09 问：可这一切不都是有方向的吗？
1:12:10 K: Please sir, when I say ‘you,’ we’re talking quickly, en passant.	1:12:10 克：拜托，先生，当我说“你”的时候，只是一个便捷的说法。
1:12:20 Q: You say ‘end.’ You say the end of direction.	1:12:20 问：你说「结束」。你说方向的结束。
1:12:27 K: Yes, sir, I said that. Sir, don’t you see the end of something is something new born? Don’t you see if we go on the same way, over and over and over again, there’s no ending to something? It’s only when something ends, a new beginning can come like... If we were satisfied with the piston engine, we would never have had the jet. Right? The jet came into being when the man said, ‘I know all about pistons, let’s stop it. Let’s look in other directions.’ ‘Directions,’ you know what I mean.	1:12:27 克：是的，先生，我说了这话。先生，你难道没有发现吗：某些事物的结束就是某些事物的新生？你难道没发现吗：如果我们继续原来的老路，不断地重复、重复再重复，那么某个事物就不会结束吗？只有当某个事物结束了，崭新的开始才会出现，就像如果我们满足于活塞发动机，我们就永远不会有喷气式飞机了。对吧？喷气式飞机之所以能出现，是因为有个人说， “我已经搞清楚了关于活塞发动机的一切，现在让我们放下它。去看看其他方向吧。 ” “方向”，你知道我的意思。
1:13:26 Q: Would you share a moment of silence with us?	1:13:26 问：你可以和我们一同分享片刻的沉默吗？
1:13:30 K: Would you stop talking and be quiet for a while, together? To be actually quiet. Unoccupied mind.	1:13:30 克：那你们可以不再讲话，我们一起安静一会儿好吗？真正地安静下来。放空头脑。
1:14:25 Right, sir.	1:14:25 很好，先生。

🢁