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OJ77T2 - 冲突的源头
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| May we go on with what we were talking about yesterday morning? We were talking about security and the importance of security, both physiological security and the search and the demand and the eagerness to find psychological security – the security of dependence on another, on an idea, with a group or with a nation, and such desire for psychological security invariably brings about division among people. We went into that, very carefully, yesterday and I hope you won’t mind if I don’t go through it again because I want to talk about several other things. | 我们可以接着我们昨天早上的演讲 继续讲下去吗？ 我们昨天谈论了「安全」， 以及「安全」的重要性 ——既包括生理上的安全， 也包括那种对「心理上安全」的寻找、 需求和渴望。 那种依赖于某个人、某种观念的安全感， 以及归属于某个团体、某个国家的安全感， 而这种对「心理安全」的渴望， 总是会带来人与人之间的分裂。 我们昨天已经 非常小心仔细地探讨过它， 所以我就不再一一重复了 ——希望你们不会介意， 因为我想要谈论一些其他的东西。 |
| I’m sure most of you will understand the importance of leisure, because it’s only when you have leisure that you learn. The meaning of that word ‘leisure,’ according to a very good dictionary, means not having any occupation, at the time when we are talking over together. Not to be occupied all the time, psychologically, physically or intellectually, just have plenty of leisure so that one can learn. That’s really the meaning of a school, where one can learn easily, without conflict, when your mind is not occupied with so many other problems. So, if I may suggest this morning, and during the rest of the other mornings that we meet here, that you are not occupied, that your minds are not filled with problems, anxieties, occupations, trying to solve problems. But that we are here together to have actually leisure, so that, when we talk over things together, as we’re going to, that leisure, which is the mind not being occupied, not chattering, not trying to find out, just having plenty of leisure so that, in that state, one can learn. | 我确信你们大多数人都明白 「空闲」的重要性， 因为只有当你空闲下来， 你才能够学习。 “空闲（leisure）”这个词的意思， 根据非常权威的词典， 它的意思是“不被任何东西所占据” ——比如在我们一起交谈的时候。 不要一直被某些事物所“占据”， 无论是心理上的、身体上的，还是思想智力上的事物， 你需要拥有大量的空闲， 由此才能去学习。 这其实就是「学校」的含义， 在学校里，一个人可以轻松地、 毫无冲突地学习， 那时你的头脑不会被 无数其他的问题所占据。 所以，如果我可以建议下的话： 今天早上， 以及我们在这里见面的 其他日子的早上， 希望你没有被“占据”， 你的头脑中没有充满各种问题、 焦虑、工作， 试图去解决种种问题。 我们在这里是要一起 拥有真正的「空闲」， 由此当我们一起讨论事情的时候 ——这就是我们将要做的事—— 那种「空闲」——即头脑不被占据， 没有喋喋不休，也不试图去发现， 只是拥有大量的空闲， 由此在那种状态下，一个人就可以去学习了。 |
| There are two types of learning: either memorise what is being said, which is what most of us call learning, or learning through observation and therefore not storing it up as a memory and then looking, observing through memory. I’m going to explain it. As we said, there are two types of learning: one is to learn something by heart so that you store it up in the brain and act according to that knowledge, skilfully or not skilfully. That’s what most of us do. When we go to school, college and university we store up a great deal of information called knowledge, and according to that knowledge act, beneficially for oneself or for society, skilfully or incapable of acting, simply, directly. That’s one type of learning, with which we are all very familiar, which we do all the time. Every experience is stored up as knowledge, and acted according to that… action taking place according to that knowledge. So, that’s very clear. I expect most of us, it is so. Then there is another kind of learning, which, probably, you’re not quite accustomed to, because we are such slaves to habits, to tradition, to every form of conformity. There is the other type of learning, as we were saying, which is to observe. Observation implies, to see without the accompaniment of previous knowledge; to look at something, as though for the first time, afresh. And if you observe things afresh, then there is not the cultivation of memory, because each time you observe, and through that observation you learn, store it up as memory, then the next time you observe, you are observing through the pattern of memory, therefore you see never anything fresh. Right? You’ve understood? I wonder – I’ll go on. We’ll go into it. | 有两种类型的学习： 要么是记忆别人所说的东西 ——这就是我们大多数人所谓的“学习”， 要么就是通过「观察」来学习， 由此便不会把学到的东西 作为记忆储存起来， 然后再透过记忆去看、去观察。 我将会来解释这一点。 我们已经说了，存在着两种类型的学习： 一种是通过牢记知识来学习， 由此你可以把这种知识储存在大脑中， 然后根据这种知识 来熟练或不熟练地行动。 这就是我们大多数人做的事情。 当我们去学校， 去某个学院和大学学习， 我们就会储存起大量的、 被称为“知识”的信息， 然后我们会根据这种知识来行动， 为了自己或社会的利益， 去熟练地行动， 或者我们会难以去 简单地、直接地行动。 这是一种类型的学习， 我们大家都很熟悉这种学习， 这也是我们一直在做的事。 每一种经验都作为「知识」而储存起来， 然后我们据此而行动 我们会根据那种知识而采取行动。 所以，这是我们都非常清楚的。 我想我们大多数人都是如此。 然后还存在着另一种学习 ——而你们可能不是很习惯于这种学习， 因为我们是如此地被各种习惯、传统 和循规蹈矩所奴役。 然而就如我们刚才所说的： 还存在着另一种学习， 那就是去「观察」。 「观察」意味着去看 而不带着过往的知识； 去看某个事物 ——就好像是第一次看它，重新看它一样。 而如果你能焕然一新地去观察事物， 你就不会培育起「记忆」， 因为每一次当你观察时， 你都会通过那种观察来学习， 然后把学到的知识作为「记忆」储藏起来， 然后下一次当你观察的时候， 你就会透过那个记忆的模板去观察， 因此你从来没有以崭新的目光 去看任何事物。 对吧？ 你们理解了吗？ 我不知道——但我会继续讲下去。我们将会来探讨它。 |
| So, as we were saying, leisure is extraordinarily important – not to have a mind that’s constantly occupied, constantly chattering. Because it’s only in that unoccupied mind a new seed of learning can take place. Which is entirely different from the memory, cultivating memory, storing up as knowledge and acting from that knowledge. As we were saying, there’s another kind of learning, which is to observe – the tree, the skies, the mountains, the beauty of the mountains, the light among the leaves. And that observation, if stored up as memory, will prevent the next observation being fresh. You get this point? It’s quite simple. That is, if you observe your wife or your girlfriend or boyfriend, if you observe, can you observe without the previous recording of the incidents and all the rest of it, in that particular relationship. If you observe or watch the other without the previous knowledge, then you learn much more. I wonder if you’re understanding what I’m talking about. Am I conveying anything or nothing at all? | 因此，就如我们刚才所说的， 「空闲」是极其重要的 ——不要让头脑持续不断地被占据， 总是喋喋不休。 因为只有在一个“不被占据”的头脑中， 才会诞生出崭新的学习的种子。 它是完全不同的，它不是记忆，培育记忆， 把记忆作为知识储存起来， 然后经由那种知识来行动。 就如我们所说的， 存在着另外一种学习， 这种学习是去「观察」—— 观察树木、天空、山川， 去观察山峦的美丽，和树叶间隙的光影。 而这种观察， 如果你将其作为「记忆」储存起来， 那么它就会妨碍你下一次崭新的观察。 你们领会这一点了吗？这是很简单的。 换句话说，如果你观察你的妻子， 或者你的女朋友或男朋友， 如果你要去观察他们， 你能否不带着关于往事回忆的记录 等等此类东西 去观察呢？ 在你们特定的关系中，以这种方式去观察对方。 如果在你观察对方或看对方时 你可以不带着过往的知识， 那么你就会学习到远远更多的东西。 我不知道你们是否理解了 我正在说的东西。 我是否向你们传达了某些东西， 还是没有传达任何东西？ |
| You see, for me, the most important thing is – among a great many other things – is to observe. And we mean by observe, observing, not to have the division between the observer and the observed. Most of us have this division. The observer who is the total summation of past experiences, knowledge and all that, which is the past, then that past observes, so there is a division between the observer and the observed. That is the source of conflict. Right? I wonder if you see this. | 你瞧，对我来说， 最重要的事情 ——除了很多其他重要事情之外—— 就是去「观察」。 而我们所说的「观察」，这种观察， 就是不要有 「观察者」与「被观察物」之间的分裂。 我们大多数人都会有这种分裂。 观察者，他是所有 过去的经验、知识等等的总和 ——经验知识等等就是「过去」， 然后，那个「过去」会去观察， 由此便有了观察者和被观察物之间的分裂。 而这就是冲突的源头。 对吧？我不知道你们是否看到了这一点。 |
| As we said yesterday, wherever there is division, there must be conflict: between races, between people, between two individuals, husband, wife, boy or girl, nations, divisions of belief, divisions of churches – any form of division, must bring about conflict. That’s clear. Now, is it possible not to have that conflict at all, right through one’s life? You understand my question? We traditionally accept this conflict, this struggle, this everlasting fight, not only physiologically, that is, to survive, but also psychologically: the good and the bad, and so on, so on – the division. So, is it at all possible to live a life without a single effort? Because, if there is constant effort, there is no peace. Right? Please, we’re communicating with each other, you’re not listening to a speaker, agreeing or disagreeing, but we are sharing the thing, together, we’re travelling together, we are concerned about all this, together. Therefore it is ours, not mine or – it’s ours. | 就如我们昨天说过的： 当有了分裂，就必定会有冲突 ——种族之间的冲突，民族之间的冲突， 两个人之间的冲突： 丈夫和妻子之间，男女朋友之间， 国与国的划分，信仰的划分， 教派的划分 ——任何形式的分裂， 都必然会带来冲突。 这是显而易见的。 那么我们是否可能 完全没有这种冲突呢， 终其一生都没有这种冲突？ 你们理解我的问题吗？ 我们出于传统习惯而接受了这种冲突、 这种斗争、这种永无止息的战斗 ——不只是生理上的， 也就是那种为了生存的冲突斗争， 同样也包括心理上的： 好的和坏的，等等等等 ——那种分裂。 所以我们究竟是否可能 过一种完全没有努力的生活？ 因为如果有了持续不断的斗争努力， 我们就不会有和平。 对吧？ 请注意，我们正在彼此交流， 而不是你听演讲者讲话， 然后表示同意或不同意， 而是我们正在一起分享这件事情， 我们正在一起前行， 我们正在一起 关心着所有这些东西。 所以它是我们的，它不是我个人的，或者……——它是“我们的”。 |
| So, we’re asking, as man has lived centuries upon centuries a life of battle, conflict, both outwardly and inwardly, constant struggle to achieve, and then fear of losing, dropping. You all are familiar with all this. Now, we’re asking, is it possible not to have any conflict or even a shadow of conflict in one’s life? Otherwise you can never have peace. You may talk endlessly about peace, but there will be no peace as long as man is conditioned to the acceptance of conflict. So, we’re asking, is it possible to live a life, in daily life, in all strata of life, both outwardly and inwardly, a life that is absolutely without conflict? | 所以我们要问： 由于人类世世代代以来一直过着 这种外在和内在冲突斗争的生活， 不断地努力奋斗去获得成功， 然后又害怕失败，害怕跌落。 你们都很熟悉这一切。 而现在，我们在问：在我们的一生中， 是否可能没有任何冲突， 甚至没有丝毫冲突的阴影？ 否则的话你将永远无法拥有和平。 你或许可以滔滔不绝地谈论和平， 然而只要人还是被制约着 而接受了冲突，那么就不会有和平。 所以我们正在问： 我们是否可能过这样一种生活： 在我们的日常生活中，在生活的所有层面 ——不管是外在的还是内在的生活， 过一种完全没有任何冲突的生活？ |
| Now, when you listen to that, don’t please, if I may suggest, accept it or deny it. Don’t say, ‘It is not possible. ’ Or say, ‘It is possible.’ If you say it is possible, then it’s just an idea and therefore valueless. But if you say, ‘It is not possible,’ then you block yourself. Right? So, we are together investigating this question. And investigation can only take place when you have leisure. Right? Leisure being, your mind not being occupied with other problems. We are here, together. Because you have leisure this morning you came, near or far… from far and, together, having leisure, which means a mind that is not occupied with daily problems, and therefore willing to learn and see if that is possible to live that way, all one’s days. Right? Are we meeting each other, somewhere? Not verbally, I hope, but actually, because it’s our problem. Because life is becoming more and more difficult. Mere survival, physical survival is becoming enormously difficult: overpopulation, national divisions, economic inequalities, you know, all the rest that is happening. Life is becoming extraordinarily difficult. | 现在，当你们听到这些以后， 如果我可以建议下的话， 请不要接受它或否定它。 不要说，“这不可能”， 或者说，“它是可能的”。 如果你说它是可能的——这只是一个观念， 因此它是毫无价值的。 但如果你说，“这不可能”， 那你就阻碍了你自己。 对吧？ 所以我们正在一起去探究这个问题。 而只有当你拥有「空闲」时， 你才可能去探究。 对吧？ 「空闲」的意思就是：你的头脑 没有被其他问题所占据。 我们之所以在这里，在一起， 是因为你今天早上有空闲， 所以你过来了， 或近或远……从很远的地方赶过来， 而我们在一起，我们都有「空闲」， 这意味着头脑 没有被日常生活的问题所占据， 因此它愿意去学习， 然后看看是否可能 一辈子每天都这样子生活。 对吧？我们是否彼此理解了， 至少某些地方理解了？ 我希望不是口头上理解，而是真的理解， 因为这是我们的问题。 因为生活正在变得越来越艰难。 仅仅是生存，身体物质上的生存 都在变得极其困难： 人口过剩，国家的划分，经济不平等， 你知道的，所有这些事情正在发生着。 生活正在变得极其艰难。 |
| And the mere physical survival, one is conditioned to the fact that one must make tremendous effort to achieve a position and hold it. You know all this. And, if you don’t hold it, if you don’t struggle, you might lose everything, you might be crushed, you might fall down, and all that. So, we’re asking a very, very serious question – do, please, give your attention to it – is it possible to live without a single shadow of conflict? Conflict exists when there is division: the ‘me’ and the ‘you,’ ‘we’ and ‘they’ – the American, the Russian, the ideologies of this group and the ideologies of that group, and so on, so on. Psychologically first, which is most important, not physiologically. If one understands, very deeply the nature and the structure of conflict, psychologically and, perhaps, end it there, then you will be able to deal with the physiological factor. But, if you’re only concerned with the physiological factor, biological factor, to survive, then you’ll find it enormously difficult. You can’t, probably, do it at all. | 而仅仅是身体物质上的生存， 我们已经习惯于这样的事实， 那就是：我们必须要付出巨大的努力 去达到某个地位，然后保持它。 你们都知道这一切。 而如果你不保持它，如果你不去努力奋斗， 你也许就会失去一切， 你也许会被摧毁， 你也许会衰落，诸如此类。 所以，我们正在询问一个 非常非常严肃的问题 ——请你们务必集中注意力—— 我们是否可能过一种 没有丝毫冲突阴影的生活？ 当有了「分裂」，就会有冲突： “我”和“你”的分裂， “我们”和“他们”的分裂 ——美国人、俄罗斯人， 这个团体的意识形态 和那个团体的意识形态， 等等等等。 这里的「分裂」首先是心理上的 ——而心理上的分裂才是最重要的—— 而不是外在生理上的（分裂）。 如果我们非常深刻地理解了 心理上冲突的本质与结构， 并且或许可以在那里结束冲突的话， 那时你就能够去处理应对 外在生理上的因素了。 但如果你只是关心外在生理上的因素， 生物学上因素，以此来生存下去的话， 你就会发现这是极其困难的事。 你可能根本无法做到它。 |
| So, we are concerned, as we have leisure this morning, sitting down together, in a beautiful place with a lot of shadow, green trees and the mountains and the cool breeze – I hope it’s not too cold – and, having leisure, we are examining, exploring together the fact whether one can live a life that is really without conflict and, therefore, with deep care, affection, attention. Right? Have you got the question? So, we ask: why is there this conflict, psychologically? First, psychologically – why? | 所以我们关心的是…… 由于我们今天早上有「空闲」， 我们可以一起 坐在这个美丽的地方： 大片树荫，绿树掩映，群山环绕，凉风习习 ——我希望风不会太冷—— 然后，在有了「空闲」以后， 我们就要一起来检视和探索这一事实， 那就是：我们是否可以过一种 真正没有冲突的、 从而带着深切关怀、关爱和关注的生活？ 对吧？ 你们明白这个问题了吗？ 所以我们问：为什么会有 这种心理上的冲突？ 它首先是心理上的——为什么？ |
| From ancient days, both historically and religiously, and economic and so on, there has been this division between the good and the bad. I do not know if you are aware of the ancient caves in the south of France, north of Africa, in their caves, where there’s a painting, probably, they say it’s 25,000 years old – don’t write to me and tell me, ‘You’re wrong about the date’ – where there is this constant, in symbolic form, the fight between the good and the evil. It existed in Sumeria 7,000 BC and down to the present time – the good opposed to the evil, the righteous and the unrighteous, the angel and the devil. Right? We’re all familiar with this. We are conditioned to this division. Right? And, as we have leisure – and I’m going to insist on that, during this talk – we’re going to investigate the fact whether there is this division, at all. Or, only ‘what is,’ and not its opposite. You understand? There is, suppose, there is anger. That is the fact, that is ‘what is.’ But not to be angry is not a fact. You are meeting my…? So, the fact and the non-fact. That is, the good opposed to the evil. And, we’re asking, why human beings have divided this, how has it come about, this division? God and the devil, you know, the whole mythological, as well as intellectual and so on – why this division? Is it because we look at everything from the past? One of the factors. The past being, all that you have learnt, all that you have experienced, and, living in the past, you look at the present not as the present but from the past. I wonder if you see it. Are we communicating with each other? I do hope... If I’m not, I would like to go over it in a different way. | 从远古时代开始， 无论是在历史上、宗教上， 还是经济上，等等， 一直有着这种「善」与「恶」之间的分裂。 我不清楚你们是否 知道有一些古老的山洞 ——它们位于法国南部 和非洲北部，在这些山洞中， 有一些壁画，人们说它们的历史 或许有25,000年了 ——请别写信告诉我，“你把时间搞错了”—— 这些壁画以象征符号的形式 描绘了这种持续不断的 「善」与「恶」之间的斗争。 它从公元前7000年的苏美尔文明开始 一直存在至今 ——这种「善」与「恶」的对抗， 正义与邪恶的对抗， 天使与恶魔的对抗。 对吧？我们都很熟悉这些东西。 我们已经被这种分裂所制约了。 对吧？ 而由于我们有「空闲」 ——在这场演讲中，我会坚持强调这一点—— 我们将会来探讨这个事实： 即是否真的存在这种分裂？ 还是说，存在的只有“真实现状”， 而没有它的对立面。 你们理解了吗？ 假如你感到很愤怒。 这是事实，这就是“真实现状”。 然而“不愤怒”却不是事实。 你们明白我的意思了吗……？ 所以存在着「事实」和「非事实」。 也就是，「善」在对抗着「恶」。 而我们要问：为什么人类要作这样的划分？ 这种分裂，它是如何出现的？ 上帝和撒旦，你知道的， 这整个神话上的、思想智性上的， 等等的分裂——为什么会有这种分裂？ 是不是因为我们是经由「过去」 在观察一切事物？ 这是其中的一个因素。 「过去」就是所有你学过的东西， 所有你经历过的事情， 你活在过去中，然后你观察「现在」， 你不是把它看作「现在」，而是经由「过去」来看它。 我不知道你们是否看到了这一点。 我们是在彼此交流着吗？ 我真的很希望 如果没有的话， 我愿意用一种不同的方式再讲一遍。 |
| We’re asking why human beings live in this division, therefore, in conflict. We are saying, one of the factors is this constant living in the past, which dictates all our action, which is the factor of the unconscious. I won’t go into that for the moment, but later on. And I hope there’re a lot of prominent psychologists here, analysts, I hope they’ll go along with me slowly. We have never questioned this division. We have accepted it, because we are very traditional by nature, habit, we don’t want anything new. And, that being a factor, other factor is that there is a division between the observer and the observed. When you look at a mountain, you are looking at it as an observer, so there is an observer and the thing observed which you call ‘the mountain.’ The word is not the thing. Right? The word ‘mountain’ is not the mountain. But, to us, the word is very important. So, when you look at that, instantly, the response is, ‘That’s a mountain’ – the word. Now, can you look at that mountain, at that thing called ‘mountain’ without the word? Because the word is a factor of division. I wonder if you’re getting all this. When you say, ‘It’s my wife,’ the word ‘my’ creates the division. We’ll go into it when we talk about relationship. So, one of the factors of this division is the word, the name. And the word and the name is a memory, is part of thought. And, when we look at a thing, – the man or the woman, or the mountain, the tree, whatever it is, division takes place when the name, the memory, thought comes into being. Right? So, is there an observation without the word, without the name, without the attachment to that particular form and symbol, and to observe without all that? | 我们正在问：为什么人类要活在这种分裂中， 并由此而陷入冲突中？ 我们说：其中一个因素就是 “人类始终活在过去中”， 这个因素支配着我们所有的行动， 它是属于「无意识」的因素。 这个我暂时先不谈，待会儿我再来讲它。 而我希望…… 这里有很多杰出的心理学家、 心理分析师，我希望他们可以 和我一起慢慢地来深入它。 我们从来没有质疑过这种分裂。 我们已经接受了它， 因为我们本性和习惯是非常因循守旧的， 我们并不想要任何新的东西。 这是一个因素，而另一个因素是： 存在着「观察者」和「被观察物」之间的分裂。 当你看着一座高山的时候， 你是作为一个观察者在观看它， 所以便会有「观察者」和观察者所观察的事物， 你把那个事物称为“高山”。 然而词语并不是它所描述的事物。 对吧？ “高山”这个词并不是高山本身。 然而对我们来说，词语是非常重要的。 所以当你看着高山的时候， 你立即会有这样的反应，那就是： “这是一座高山”——这就是「词语」。 那么，你能否看着那座高山， 看着那个被称为“高山”的事物 而没有「词语文字」呢？ 因为「词语文字」是造成分裂的因素之一。 我不知道你们是否领会了这一切。 当你说，“这是我的妻子”的时候， “我的”这个词就制造出了分裂。 当我们谈论「关系」的时候， 我们将会来探讨这一点。 所以，造成这种分裂的因素之一 就是「词语」，就是「名称」。 而词语和名称就是「记忆」， 就是思想的一部分。 当我们看一个事物的时候 ——男人或女人，或者高山、树木， 无论什么东西， 当名称、记忆和思想介入进来， 分裂就产生了。 对吧？ 所以是否存在着一种观察， 它没有词语文字，没有名称， 也不执著于特定的形式与符号， 而是不带着所有这些东西去观察？ |
| Is this getting difficult? So, can you observe without the observer, who’s the past? You understand? Who is the past, who is the essence of all the memories, experiences, the reactions and so on, which is the past, and look at something without the past, without the observer? When you do that, there is only the observed, so there is no division. You understand? And so no conflict, psychologically. Are you doing it or are you just memorising what is being said? Can you look at your girlfriend or wife or whatever, your nearest intimate friend, can you look, observe her or him, without the name, the word, and all the experiences that you have gathered in that relationship, which is memory, which is the past, and look? And, when you so look, what takes place? Then you’re looking at him or her for the first time. You understand? For God’s sake, get this! Don’t please learn it, but actually, as you are… leisure and as we are talking over something which is tremendously important, and learning implies doing it now, not tomorrow, not another day. So that the observer is the observed. Therefore, there is only the observed. I wonder if you get this. Nobody’s going to tell you all these things – no books, no gurus, no philosophers. You have to learn this from yourself. And you can only learn this from yourself when you have time, leisure, the mind not being occupied with all kinds of things. | 它是不是变得难懂起来了？ 所以你能否毫无「观察者」地去观察？ ——观察者就是「过去」。 你理解了吗？ 观察者就是「过去」， 他就是所有记忆、经验、 反应，等等这些东西的本质 ——这些东西就是「过去」。 然后不带「过去」，不带观察者地 去看某个事物？ 当你这样做时， 存在的就只有那个「被观察物」， 由此便不会有分裂了。 你明白了吗？ 所以就不会有心理上的冲突。 你是在这样做吗？ 还是说你只是记住了 演讲者所说的东西？ 在你看着你女朋友、你的妻子 或者无论什么人的时候， 你最亲近要好的朋友， 在看着她（他）、观察她（他）的时候，你能否不带着名字、词语， 和所有你在那段关系中 所积累起来的经验 ——它们就是记忆，就是过去—— 以这种方式去看对方？ 而当你这样去看的时候， 会发生什么呢？ 那时你就仿佛是 第一次见到他（她）一样。 了解了吗？ 看在上帝的份上，请理解它！ 请不要去学习它， 而是真正地去，因为你们都有……空闲， 因为我们正在讨论某个无比重要的东西， 而「学习」意味着此刻就去做它， 不是在明天，也不是在别的日子里。 由此「观察者」就成了「被观察物」。 所以那时就只剩下「被观察物」了。 我不知道你们是否明白了这一点。 没有人会告诉你所有这些事情 ——没有书本、古鲁或者哲学家可以告诉你。 你必须要从自己身上去学习它。 而只有当你有时间、有空闲， 当你的头脑没有被各种事情所占据的时候， 你才能够从自己身上去学习它。 |
| So, we are saying, it is possible to live a life that is completely, psychologically, free from all conflict. Has it happened to you? Please, this is not group therapy, which is an abomination to me, personally, exposing our dirty laundry to each other, which has no meaning. But what we are actually doing, is learning, not memorising, but learning, observing the fact. And the fact will do everything if you let the fact alone. You understand? So, the fact is that human beings live in the past, and, therefore, there is always division between the past and the present, and the future. The past, being, time. So, we’re saying, as long as – if I may go a little further – as long as there is a time interval in your observation, between the observer and the observed, there must be conflict. Please, don’t agree with me. See, find out, if this is an actual fact, to you. If you have really understood this, not verbally, but are actually doing it, because we’re talking about a very, very serious problem which is conflict, struggle in life. And, when you do not struggle, you think you’re lost, and thereby, be afraid of losing, which is another form of conflict. So, if you really have gone into this with the speaker, together, and discovered for yourself, not from the speaker but discovered it for yourself, that, as long as there is a division between the observer, the image-maker and the fact, which has no image but only fact, as long as there is division, there must be everlasting conflict. That’s a law. And can that conflict be ended? And we’re pointing out or talking about it and learning that it can end. | 所以我们在说的是： 我们是可能去过一种 完全没有心理冲突的生活的。 这件事在你身上发生了吗？ 请注意，这并不是什么“团体心理治疗”， 我个人很厌恶这种东西， 彼此互相暴露自己的隐私丑事， 这并没有什么意义。 我们真正在做的事情是「学习」， 不是去记忆什么，而是去学习、 去观察那个事实。 而那个事实本身就会完成一切事情 ——如果你放任它不管的话。 你理解了吗？ 所以，这个事实就是： 人类活在「过去」之中， 因而总是存在「分裂」 ——过去、现在和未来之间的分裂。 「过去」就是时间。 所以我们在说：只要…… ——如果允许我稍微深入一下的话—— 只要在你的观察中还存在着“时间间隔” ——即观察者和被观察物之间的分隔， 那就必定会有冲突。 请别同意我的说法。 自己去发现、去看看 这对你来说是不是真切的事实？ 如果你真的理解了这一点， 不是口头文字上的理解， 而是你实际这样去做了， 因为我们正在谈论一个 非常非常严肃的问题 ——即生活中的冲突和斗争。 而当你不去斗争的时候， 你会感觉自己失败了， 然后你会害怕这种失败 ——这是另一种形式的冲突。 所以，如果你已经和演讲者一起 真正深入探究了这个问题， 并且亲自去发现它 ——不是从演讲者这里去发现， 而是自己去发现它， 即：只要还是存在观察者 ——即意象的制造者，和事实 ——事实是不包含意象的，它只是事实—— 之间的分裂， 只要还是存在着（两者之间的）分裂， 就必然会有永无止息的冲突。 这是一个定律。 那么这种冲突可以被终结吗？ 而我们正在指出这一点 或者说讨论这一点， 然后我们得知：它是可以被终结的。 |
| So, when there is a psychological ending of suffering, ending of conflict, which is part of suffering, then how does that apply to our livelihood? How does that apply in our relationship with each other? Right? You are following? I don’t know if you’re understanding or not. Can I go on? If this is a fact, that you, as a human being who is the world and the world is you, which we went into yesterday, very carefully, if this is a fact, that you have really… that you are actually, now, living a life in which there is psychologically no conflict, whatsoever, then how does that ending of psychological struggle, with all its conflicts, pain, anxiety, fear, how does that apply to our daily living? You understand? To our daily going to the office, etc. What’s your answer? If this is a fact to you, that you have ended psychological conflict, then how will you live a life without conflict, outwardly? | 所以当我们从心理上结束了痛苦， 结束了冲突 ——冲突也是痛苦的一部分， 那么这件事将如何 应用于我们的生活呢？ 它将如何应用于 我们彼此间的关系呢？ 对吗？ 你们跟上了吗？ 我不知道你们是否理解了它。 我可以继续讲下去吗？ 如果这是一个事实： 即你作为人类的一员， 你就是这个世界，而这个世界就是你 ——这个我们昨天已经 非常小心仔细地探讨过了， 如果这是一个事实， 那就是：你是真的 你实际上现在就过着一种 心理上完全没有任何冲突的生活， 那么这种心理上的挣扎斗争 及其所有的冲突、痛苦、焦虑、恐惧的结束， 这种「结束」将会如何应用于 我们的日常生活呢？ 你们理解了吗？ 应用于我们的日常生活， 每天去办公室上班，等等。 你的答案是什么？ 如果这对你来说是一个事实， 即你已经结束了心理上的冲突， 那么外在看起来， 你会如何去过这种没有冲突的生活呢？ |
| Questioner: (Inaudible) | （听众）提问：（听不清） |
| Krishnamurti: No, please, don’t answer me, because we’ll have a discussion about this, a dialogue about all these matters, the day after tomorrow – every Tuesday and Thursday. So, this is a conversation between two people where only one person is conversing. Because we’ll get lost, otherwise. And I hope you don’t mind. It’s quite amusing, one person… | 克里希那穆提：不，请注意，不要回答我， 因为后天我们就会 对此进行一场讨论会， 进行一场对话， 来讨论所有这些问题 ——在每周的周二和周四都会有。 所以这是一场两个人之间的交谈， 然而却只有一个人在那里说话。 因为如果不这样的话，我们就会晕头转向了。 我希望你们不会介意。 这很好笑，一个人在那里 |
| What am I to do, if I live this kind of life? No conflict, inwardly. Do you know what that means? When there is no conflict inside, there’s no conflict outside, because there is no division between the inner and the outer. You understand? It’s like ebb and flow, the sea coming in and the sea going out, but when there is this, psychologically, no conflict, the ebb going out, also no conflict. You understand? What shall I do? I have to earn a livelihood, unfortunately. Personally, I don’t. I don’t because I’ve no problem about earning a livelihood. But you have a problem about earning a livelihood. Why haven’t I a problem about not earning a livelihood? Because – very simple. You’re all waiting? You’re a strange people, all right! I’ve no problem because I don’t mind what happens. You understand? I don’t mind if I fail or succeed. I don’t mind if I have money or not money. Personally, I have no money, thank God. I don’t want money, but I need food and clothes and shelter, and if somebody gives me, it’s all right. If somebody doesn’t, I live where I am. You understand my question? I have no problem because I don’t demand anything from anybody or from life. | 如果我过的是这样一种生活， 那我会怎么做呢？ 没有任何内在的冲突。 你知道这意味着什么吗？ 当没有了内在的冲突， 也就不会有外在的冲突了， 因为那时，内在和外在已经没有分裂了。 你理解了吗？ 它就像是潮起潮落， 海潮涌进来，然后海潮又流出去， 然而当心理上没有冲突时， 那么当海潮流出去时，它同样也不会有冲突。 你们明白了吗？ 那么我要怎么做？ 不幸的是，我必须要赚钱谋生。 我个人并不需要赚钱谋生。 我不需要是因为：我在赚钱谋生这方面 并不存在什么问题。 但你们会有谋生方面的问题。 那为什么我不赚钱谋生 却不会有什么问题呢？ 因为——答案非常简单。 你们都在等我回答吗？ 原来你对我很陌生，那好吧！ 我之所以没有问题， 是因为我并不介意发生什么。 你明白了吗？ 我并不在乎自己是成功还是失败。 我不在乎自己有没有钱。 就我个人而言，我并没有什么钱， 感谢上帝。 我并不想要钱，但我还是需要 食物、衣服和住所， 而如果有人给了我这些东西，那很好。 如果那个人不给我， 那我就继续住在原来的地方。 你们理解我的问题了吗？ 我之所以没有问题 是因为我并没有向任何人、 向生活索要任何东西。 |
| I wonder if you understand this. So, I’ve explained, but my way of living is entirely different from yours, so... So, if I had to earn a livelihood, what shall I do? Having, psychologically, no conflict of any kind. You know what that means? How has it happened that I have no conflict? Is it a theory? Is it a desire which has been fulfilled? Is it an illusion? Is it something that I’ve hypnotised myself into? You understand all my questions? Or, is it an absolute, irrevocable fact, which nobody can touch? It is inviolate. You know what ‘inviolate’ means? That which cannot be damaged, which cannot be touched. So, if that is so, then what shall we do together – it is together – what shall we do together to earn a livelihood? Because there is no conflict, therefore there is no ambition. Because there is no conflict, there is no desire to be something. Right? Because there’s no conflict, because inwardly there is absolute, something which is inviolable, which cannot be touched, which cannot be damaged, then I don’t depend, psychologically, on another. Therefore, there is no conformity, no imitation and all that. | 我不知道你们是否明白了这一点。 所以我算是解释过了。 但我的生活方式 和你们是完全不同的，所以 所以如果我不得不赚钱谋生的话， 我该怎么做呢？ 如果我心理上已经没有了任何冲突。 你知道这意味着什么吗？ “我没有冲突”这件事，它是如何发生的？ 它是一个理论吗？ 它是一个已经实现的愿望吗？ 它是一个幻想吗？ 它是某种我自我催眠的东西吗？ 你们明白我所有的问题了吗？ 还是说，它是一个绝对的、 不可改变的事实， 没有人可以触动它？ 它是不受侵犯的。 你知道“不受侵犯”这个词的意思吗？ 它的意思是：某个不可被破坏、 不可被触及的事物。 所以如果是这样的话， 我们要一起做些什么呢？ ——是我们一起—— 我们要一起做些什么来谋生呢？ 因为我们已经没有了冲突， 因而也没有野心了。 由于我们没有冲突， 由此便不会渴望成为某个人物了。 对吧？ 因为我内心已经没有冲突了， 因为我的内在有了某种绝对的、 不可侵犯的、 不可被触及、不可被破坏的事物， 那时我就不会在心理上依赖别人。 所以便不会有遵从、模仿等等这些事情。 |
| So, not having all that, then I will do what I can in the world. Be a gardener, a cook – anything. You understand? But, we are so heavily conditioned to success and failure. Success in the world – money, position, prestige, you know, all that, and that’s what we are struggling for. But, if none of that exists, – you understand what takes place in a human being? In consciousness, in human consciousness, which is so heavily conditioned – right? – heavily conditioned to success and the fear of failure. To be something not only outwardly but inwardly. That’s why you accept all the gurus, because you hope he’ll lead you to some illumination, some kind of illusory nonsense. Not that there is not something absolutely true, but nobody can lead you to it. So, our whole consciousness, or most of it, is conditioned to accept to live a life of constant struggle, because we want to achieve, we want to become, we want to play a certain part, we want to fulfil, we want – you know – which all implies the denial – please listen to this – the denial of ‘what is’ and the acceptance of ‘what should be.’ Because we deny ‘what is,’ and have created the ideal of ‘what should be,’ there is conflict. But to observe actually ‘what is,’ which means you have no opposite, only ‘what is.’ | 所以，在没有了上述这些东西后， 我可以在这个世界上做些力所能及的事。 做个园丁，做个厨师——任何工作都行。 你们明白了吗？ 然而，我们却深受「成功和失败」的制约。 在这个世界上获得成功 ——金钱、地位、声望， 你知道的，所有这些东西， 这就是我们努力追求的东西。 然而如果所有这些东西都不存在了 ——你知道人类内在会发生什么吗？ 在意识中，在人类的意识中， 这种意识已经深受制约了 ——对吧？—— 被深深制约着去追求成功， 同时害怕失败。 被制约着去成为某种人——不仅是外在的、也包括内在成为某种人。 这就是为什么你们接受了所有的古鲁， 因为你们希望古鲁可以引领你们达到某种觉悟， 某种荒谬的幻觉。 并不是说不存在某种绝对真实的事物， 而是说：没有人可以带领你达到它。 所以，我们整个的意识， 或者说绝大部分意识， 都被制约着去接受认可 那种持续不断努力奋斗的生活， 因为我们想要达到目标， 我们想要变成某种人， 我们想要成为某号人物， 我们想要有所成就， 我们想要——你知道的—— 所有这些都意味着否定 ——请听好—— 否定那个「真实现状」， 然后接受我们理想中的「应该怎样」。 因为我们否定了「真实现状」， 然后创造出了那个「应该怎样」的理想， 于是就有了冲突。 然而，实实在在地去观察「真实现状」， 这意味着你没有对立面，而只有「真实现状」。 |
| Look, if you observe violence, the word ‘violence’ is already contaminated, the very word, because there is people who approve of it, people who don’t approve of it, so it’s already warped. So we have to, take, for instance, violence. And the whole philosophy of non-violence, both politically, religiously and all the rest of it. That is, there is violence and its opposite, non-violence. The opposite exists because you know violence. Right? Come on, sirs. And the opposite has its root in ‘what is.’ Right? So, we think by having an opposite, by some extraordinary method or means, we’ll get rid of the ‘what is.’ Which is, ‘what is’ and ‘what should be.’ To achieve ‘what should be,’ you need time. See what we go through, – the misery, the conflict, the absurdity of all this. ‘What is’ is violence and ‘what should be’ is non-violence. So, we say we need time to achieve non-violence, because I’m conditioned to violence and to non-violence – I must have time, I must make an effort, I must struggle to be non-violent. That’s the philosophy, that’s the conditioning, that’s the tradition – the good and the bad. | 你瞧，如果你观察一下「暴力」， 「暴力」这个词，这个词本身 已经被污染了， 因为有人赞同它， 有人并不赞同它， 所以它已经被曲解了。 所以我们必须要…… 就拿「暴力」来举个例子， 以及整个关于「非暴力」的哲学 ——政治上的、宗教上的， 以及所有其他方面的「非暴力」。 也就是说，存在着「暴力」 以及它的反面——「非暴力」。 它的反面之所以存在， 是因为你知道「暴力」。 对吧？ 加油啊，先生们。 然而对立面 是根植于「真实现状」中的。 对吗？ 所以，我们认为通过达到对立面， 通过某种特别的方法或手段， 我们就可以摆脱掉「真实现状」。 也就是：我们有「真实现状」和「应该怎样」的区分。 而要达到「应该怎样」，你需要时间。 看看我们都经历了什么 ——那些痛苦、那些冲突， 所有这些荒谬之事。 暴力是我们的「真实现状」， 而非暴力则是我们「应该怎样」。 于是我们说：我们需要时间 来达到「非暴力」， 因为我受制于「暴力」和「非暴力」 ——我必须要有时间， 我必须要做出努力， 我必须要努力奋斗变成「非暴力」的。 这就是我们的哲学， 这就是我们的局限， 这就是我们的传统 ——「好」与「坏」的区分。 |
| Now, can you put away the opposite and just look at violence, which is the fact? The non-violence is not a fact. Right? Are we meeting each other? Non-violence is an idea, is a concept, is a conclusion. But the fact is violence, that you’re angry, that you hate somebody, that you want to hurt people, anger, jealousy – all that is the implication of violence. That’s the fact. Now, can you observe that fact, without introducing its opposite? You understand? Then you have the energy, which is being wasted in trying to achieve the opposite, you’ve all that energy to observe ‘what is.’ In that observation there is no conflict. I wonder if you get all this. Right? | 而现在，你能否放下对立面， 而只是去看「暴力」？ ——「暴力」才是事实。 「非暴力」并不是事实。 对吧？ 我们互相理解对方意思了吗？ 「非暴力」只是一个理念、 一个概念、一个结论。 而「暴力」才是事实， 你感到愤怒， 你憎恨某个人， 你想要去伤害别人， 生气、嫉妒 ——「暴力」就暗示了所有这些东西。 这才是「事实」。 那么现在，你能否观察这个事实， 而不要引入它的对立面呢？ 你理解了吗？ 那时你就会有能量 ——现在这种能量正被浪费在 “达到对立面”的努力中， 于是你拥有了全部的能量 可以去观察「真实现状」了。 在那种观察中是没有冲突的。 我不知道你是否明白了这一切。对吗？ |
| So, what will a man do who has understood this extraordinary, complex existence based on violence, conflict, struggle, who is actually free of it, not theoretically about it – actually free, which means no conflict – what shall he do in the world? Will you ask me, or are you asking yourself this question? Will you ask this question – please, listen – will you ask this question, if you are inwardly, psychologically, completely free from conflict? Will you? Obviously not. It’s only the man in conflict who says, ‘If there is no conflict, I will be ended. I will be destroyed by society.’ Because society is based on conflict. But the society is what you have made of it. You have made the society, you are responsible for the society because you are greedy, envious, violent, and society is what you are. So, there is no difference between you and the society. You are society. Right? These are facts. But, when you separate yourself from society and say, ‘I am different from society,’ which is such nonsense, then, if there is complete transformation of the structure of society, which is violence, immorality and all the rest of it, in you, you affect the consciousness of society. And when you are so free, inwardly, will you ever ask that question: what shall I do in the outward world? Do answer it yourself, sir. Find out the answer for yourself. Because inwardly you have completely transformed something which man is conditioned to – this constant battle, battle, battle. Have I answered the question? I’ve answered it for myself, long ago. But, will you put that question to yourself and find out, without any illusion, without any fantasy, without any desire to be or not be, which all brings conflict, find out for yourself the fact of it? That is, a complete transformation, inwardly, of something which man has held as the most important thing, which is struggle, fight, conflict, you know, all the rest of it. | 所以，当一个人了解了 这种基于暴力、冲突、努力的 无比复杂的生活以后， 当一个人真正地摆脱了它 ——不是理论上的， 而是真正自由了： 这意味着没有了冲突—— 那么这个人在世界上会怎么做呢？ 你要问我这个问题吗， 还是说你会问自己这个问题？ 你会问这个问题吗 ——请听好—— 你还会问这个问题吗 ——如果你内在、 心理上已经完全摆脱了冲突？ 你还会问这种问题吗？ 很显然不会。 只有一个仍然处于冲突中的人才会说， “如果没有了冲突，我就完了。 我将会被这个社会摧毁。” 因为这个社会就是建立在冲突之上的。 然而这个社会是你们一手造就的。 你已经创造出了这个社会， 所以你们要对这个社会负责， 因为你是贪婪的、妒忌的、暴力的， 于是社会便和你们一样了。 所以「你」和「社会」并没有什么差别。 你就是社会。 对吗？这些都是事实。 然而当你把自己和这个社会分开， 然后说，“我和社会是不同的” ——这真是胡说八道， 那时，如果社会结构发生了彻底的转变 ——社会结构就是你内心的暴力、 不道德，等等这些东西—— 那么你就会影响这个社会的意识了。 而当你内在是如此的自由， 你还会问这样的问题吗： 我在外部世界中该怎么做呢？ 请务必自己去回答它，先生。 自己去找出答案。 因为在你内心，你已经彻底转变了 某些制约着人类的事物 ——那种持续不断的战斗、战斗、战斗。 我是否已经回答了这个问题？ 很久以前，我就已经自己回答了它。 但你们能否问问自己这个问题， 然后去发现 没有任何错觉，没有任何幻想， 没有想要成为或不成为某种人的渴望 ——所有这些都会带来冲突—— 亲自去发现这个问题的真相？ 换句话说就是在内心彻底转变 那些人类视为最重要的、 并紧抓不放的事物 ——即努力、斗争、冲突， 你知道的，所有诸如此类的东西。 |
| So, the next thing is – if I may go on to something else – that our consciousness, if you have observed it and because we have leisure, we can look, now if you observe your consciousness, if you’re aware of your consciousness, that is, are you aware of your consciousness, what you are? If you are aware, then you’ll see that your consciousness is in total – I’m using the word ‘total’ in its absolute sense, not relative sense, in its absolute sense – your consciousness is in total disorder. Right? Are you aware of that fact? To be aware implies… very simple, to be aware – you are aware of the trees, you’re aware of where you’re sitting, I’m aware of the sun on my head, which I don’t like, I’m aware of the various colours and so on – aware outwardly. And, inwardly, to be aware implies to be aware without any distortion. You can’t distort that tree and say, ‘That’s an elephant.’ But you can very easily distort what you see, inwardly. | 所以，下一件事情就是——如果我可以继续来讲些别的东西—— 那就是我们的意识 ——如果你已经观察过它的话， 由于我们有「空闲」， 所以我们能够去看，现在就去看， 而如果你观察一下你的意识， 如果你觉察到你的意识， 也就是说：你是否觉察到了自己的意识， 觉察到了自己的模样？ 如果你有所觉察， 那时你就会看到： 你的意识正处于“彻底的” ——我使用的“彻底”这个词， 是从它的绝对意义上来说的， 不是相对意义上的， 而是绝对意义上的“彻底”—— 你的意识正处于彻底的混乱之中。 对吧？ 你觉察到这个事实了吗？ 「觉察」意味着…… 很简单，那就是去觉知 ——你觉知到那些树木， 你觉知到你正坐在哪里， 我觉知到我头顶的太阳 ——而我并不喜欢这大太阳， 我觉知到各种各样的色彩等等 ——这些都是外在的觉察。 而内在的觉察则意味着 没有任何扭曲的觉知。 你是无法扭曲那棵树， 然后说，“那是一头大象”的。 但你很容易会扭曲 你内在所看到的东西。 |
| So, to be aware implies to be aware without any distortion of what is going on inside. Right? Are you so aware of your consciousness? If you are, you will find – don’t you find? – that it is contradictory, saying one thing, doing something else, wanting something else. You follow? The total movement, within an area which is so small, and so no space and in that little space there is disorder. Right, sir? Are you aware of this? | 所以「觉察」就意味着 没有任何扭曲地去觉知 内心所发生的事情。 是吧？ 你是否清楚地觉察到了自己的意识？ 如果你觉察到了， 你就会发现——你难道没发现吗？ —— 你的意识是自相矛盾的， 说的是一套，做的是另一套， 想要的又是别的东西。 你们跟上了吗？ 这整个意识的运动落入于如此狭小的区域中，由此便没有了空间， 而在那个小小的地方， 便会产生混乱。 对吧，先生？你觉察到这些了吗？ |
| What time is it, sirs? | 先生们，现在几点了？ |
| Q: Eight past twelve. | 问：十二点零八分。 克：十二点了？ |
| K: Twelve? You must be tired at the end of an hour, because this is rather strenuous work. We’ll stop, presently, but let’s go on for a little while about this thing. We’ll pick it up again on Saturday and Sunday – next Saturday and Sunday – which is: are you aware of your consciousness? Are you different from your consciousness? Or, you are that consciousness. Right? That’s simple. You are that consciousness. You’re not different from your consciousness. And are you aware that you are in total disorder? And, ultimately, that disorder leading to neuroticism – obviously. And all the factors of modern society, with psychologists, psychoanalysts, psycho-therapists, you know, all that stuff going on. If you are aware, in the sense, that you watch yourself, which is your consciousness, without any disorder, without any distortion. Is that possible? That is only possible when the observer is the observed. You understand? When the observer is the observed, there is no distortion, he sees ‘what is.’ But if the observer exists, then he distorts what he sees. You understand this question? Is this clear? | 听了一个小时以后， 你们一定很累了， 因为这是一件相当费力的事情。 我们差不多该结束了， 但是让我们再稍微谈一下这个问题。 我们也会在周六和周日再来讨论它 ——下个周六和周日—— 这个问题就是：你觉察到自己的「意识」了吗？ 你和你的「意识」是不同的吗？ 还是说：你其实就是「意识」。 对吧？ 这很简单。 你就是那种「意识」。 你和你的意识并没有什么不同。 你是否觉察到自己 正处于彻底的混乱中？ 而这种混乱最终将会 导致神经质——这是很显然的事。 以及构成现代社会的所有那些部分： 心理学家、 精神分析学家、心理治疗师，你知道的，所有这些事情正在进行着。 如果你有所觉察，这里觉察的含义是： 你在观察你自己 ——也就是在观察你的意识， 毫无混乱、毫无扭曲地去观察它。 这可能吗？ 只有当「观察者」是「被观察物」的时候，这才是可能的。 你理解了吗？ 当「观察者」成了「被观察物」， 那时就没有扭曲了，他会看到「真实现状」。 但如果存在「观察者」， 那他就会扭曲他所看到的东西。 你明白这个问题了吗？ 清楚了吗？ |
| So, can you observe… is there an observation of oneself, which is our consciousness, and see the actual fact of its disorder, of one’s disorder, in daily life? Not only outwardly, but much more deeply, inwardly. Outwardly, we are very orderly – some of us, at least – because it is compulsive, it’s becoming more and more… You have to be orderly in order to… etc. – I won’t go into all that. But, inwardly, are you in order? Or, there is disorder? Can you observe this fact? And what takes place when you observe choicelessly, which means without any distortion, what takes place? You understand my question? Because where there is disorder, there must be conflict. Where there is absolute order there is no conflict. And, we’re saying there is an absolute order, not relative order. And that can only come about naturally, easily, without any conflict, only when one is aware of oneself as a consciousness, observe the confusion, the turmoil, the contradiction outwardly and inwardly, and observe without any distortion. Then, out of that comes, naturally, sweetly, easily, an order which is irrevocable. | 所以，你能否去观察…… 是否存在着一种「自我观察」， 也就是去观察我们自己的意识， 然后看到这个事实真相： 即这种意识的混乱， 我们在日常生活中的混乱？ 这种混乱不仅是外在的， 它更多的是内心深处的，内在的混乱。 外在而言，我们是非常有秩序的 ——至少我们中一些人是非常有序的—— 因为这种秩序是强制性的， 它正在变得越来越 你必须要遵守秩序，为的是……等等那些事情。 我就不展开讲了。 然而内在而言，你拥有秩序吗？ 还是说你是混乱失序的？ 你能够观察这个事实吗？ 当你无选择地观察时 会发生什么呢？ 无选择的观察意味着没有任何扭曲，那时会发生什么呢？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 因为当有了混乱，就必然会有冲突。 而当有了绝对的秩序，那么就不会有冲突了。 而我们说的是有了“绝对的秩序”， 而不是相对性的秩序。 而要让这件事自然地、 容易地、没有任何冲突地发生， 只有当一个人把自己作为「意识」去自我觉察才行， 去观察自己的困惑、混乱、矛盾 ——不管是外在的还是内在的， 去毫无任何扭曲地观察。 那时，从这之中就会自然地、愉快地、轻松地产生 那种不可改变的秩序。 |
| So far... It’s an hour. Is that enough for an hour? Or would you like to sit and let me go on talking? | 我们到现在已经讲了一个小时了。一个小时应该够了吧？ 还是说你们想要坐在那里， 让我继续讲下去？ |
