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OJ77T5 - 爱与死亡
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| I believe there will be another talk tomorrow and that will be the end of this session. | 我想我们明天还会有一场演讲， 然后我们这一系列的演讲谈话 就完结了。 |
| We have been talking over, together during the last four meetings that we have held here about several things, and if I may go, briefly, into what we have said so that those of you who have come here for the first time will understand what we have been talking about. We said, from the beginning, that we are sharing this thing, together. That is the meaning of communication, not only verbal but also through the words, understand the significance of what is being said. We said man throughout the world, human beings, are always seeking security, both physiological, as well as psychological. That security, physical security, is denied for all human beings when the psychological security, which doesn’t really exist, is sought after in various forms of illusions, beliefs, dogmas, religious sanctions and so on and so on. So, where there is psychological division, there must, inevitably, be physiological division with all its conflicts, wars and so on. | 我们已经在这里有过四次聚会， 在这四次聚会中，我们一起讨论了 几个东西， 请允许我简要地来回顾一下 我们此前所说的东西， 这样你们中那些第一次来到这里的人 就会了解我们之前讲过的东西了。 从一开始的时候，我们就说了： 那就是我们是在一起分享它。 这就是「交流」的含义， 不仅是口头文字上的沟通交流， 也要通过语言文字 来理解对方所说东西背后的意义。 我们说过：全世界的人，全人类， 他们总是在寻找安全， 既包括生理上的安全， 也包括心理上的安全感。 然而这种安全，全人类生理上的安全却被否定了， 因为人们在追寻那种 其实并不存在的心理上的安全， 人们以各种方式来追寻它： 各种幻想、 信仰、教条、宗教制裁，等等等等。 所以当有了心理上的分裂， 就必然不可避免地会有 肉体生理上的分裂， 及其所有的冲突、战争等等。 |
| And also, we were talking about the suffering of man, the tragedy, the inhumanity of man to man. Wherever you go in the world – it doesn’t matter whether it is in India, Europe or Russia or China or in this country – human beings, psychologically, are more or less the same: they suffer, they are anxious, uncertain, confused, in great pain, ambitious, fighting each other, everlastingly. So, basically, psychologically, all human beings are the same. So, one can, with reason, logic, say that the world is you and you are the world. And, I think this is very important to understand because we are going to discuss, after a brief resume of what we have talked about, we’re going into the question, again sharing together, investigating together, travelling together, exploring together, the question of love and its relationship to suffering. And, if there is time, to go into the enormous question of what is death. | 此外，我们也谈论了人类的痛苦、 人类的悲惨，人类彼此间惨无人道的行为。 无论你去世界上哪个地方 ——不管是印度、欧洲、 俄罗斯、中国，或者这个国家（美国）—— 世界各地的人在心理上其实都差不多： 他们都在受苦，他们都很焦虑， 他们内心感到不确定，感到困惑， 他们痛苦不堪，野心勃勃， 永远在彼此斗争着。 所以基本上讲，从心理上来说， 所有的人都是一样的。 所以某人可以理性地、合乎逻辑地说： 这个世界就是你，而你就是这个世界。 我认为理解这一点是非常重要的， 因为我们即将来讨论 ——在简要地概述了 我们此前所讲的东西后—— 我们将会来讨论一个问题， 我们会再次一起分享它， 一起研究它，一起前行， 一起探索它： 那就是关于「爱」的问题， 以及它和人类的「苦」的关系。 而如果还有时间的话， 我们还会来谈谈这个巨大的问题， 即：什么是「死亡」？ |
| So, we are saying, we have been saying, that the world is you and you are the world. That’s an absolute fact when one goes into it, very deeply. And our consciousness, which is the whole movement of thought, which is called consciousness, and its content – the contents are the desire for power, position, security, the wounds and the hurts that we have received from childhood, and the question of fear, guilt. And also, we have talked about the other day, the last time that we met here, the problem and the question of the pursuit of pleasure. We were saying that fear and pleasure are the two sides of the same coin. And, without understanding the whole structure and the nature of pleasure, based on desire, we will never understand or live a life in which there is love. That’s what we, briefly, said in a more detailed way the last time that we met here. | 所以我们在说——我们已经说过—— 这个世界就是你，而你就是这个世界。 当我们非常深入地探究它以后， （我们会发现）它是一个绝对的事实。 而我们的「意识」 ——它就是思想的全部运动—— 它被称之为“意识”， 而意识的内容 ——这些内容就是对权力、地位和安全的渴望， 我们从小开始所受到的那些伤害和创伤， 以及关于「恐惧」和「负罪感」的问题。 此外，前几天我们还讨论了 ——上一次我们在这里相聚的时候—— 我们谈论了追求快感的问题。 我们说：「恐惧」和「快感」 是同一个硬币的两面。 而如果不了解那种基于欲望的快感的 整个结构与本质的话， 我们就永远无法了解、也永远无法去过 那种「充满爱的生活」。 这就是关于我们上次在这里所说东西的简要概述 ——此前我们已经详尽地讨论过它们了。 |
| So we’re going to go together, if we may, into the question of what is love. You understand? Because part of our consciousness, one of the fragments of consciousness is fear, and the pursuit of pleasure. So, is love a fragment of our consciousness, in which there is fear and pleasure, the pursuit of pleasure? So, we’re asking, and I hope we are sharing in this, though the speaker is putting the question, when there is fear, is there love? And, when there is the mere pursuit of pleasure, is there love? Is love pleasure and desire, or has it nothing whatsoever to do with fear, pleasure and desire? We are going together, explore this very complex problem. Our minds and the brain, if you’ve observed it for yourself – brain in the sense, though the speaker is not an expert or a specialist in the brain structure and so on, but one can observe, read this whole history of mankind in oneself if one has the capacity, the energy, the drive, the passion, to find out. Because you are the whole history, the story of mankind. And so, you are the world and the world is you. | 所以如果可以的话，我们将会一起来探究 关于“什么是爱”的问题。 你们理解了吗？ 因为我们意识的一部分， 我们意识的碎片之一就是「恐惧」 以及对快感的追求。 那么，「爱」是我们意识的一个碎片吗？ 在这种意识中有着恐惧、快感， 以及对快感的追求。 所以我们在问 ——我希望我们正在一起分享它， 尽管是演讲者提出了这个问题—— 当有了恐惧时，还会有「爱」吗？ 当仅仅只有对快感的追寻时， 还会有「爱」吗？ 「爱」是快感和欲望吗？ 或者说它和恐惧、快感、欲望 没有任何关系？ 我们将一起来探究这个非常复杂的问题。 我们的心灵和大脑 ——如果你亲自去观察一下它的话—— 这里大脑的意思…… 尽管演讲者并不是大脑结构等方面的权威 或者专家， 但我们可以在自己身上去观察和阅读 人类的整个历史 ——如果你拥有这种能力、能量、驱动力 和热情去发现它的话。 因为你就是人类的全部历史和故事。 因此你就是世界，而这个世界就是你。 |
| Our brains, through constant habit in which it has found security, has become mechanical. I do not know if you have not observed it. Mechanical, in the sense, habitual, following certain definite pattern, repeating that pattern over and over again in a different field, but it’s still a pattern, and the routine of daily life. The brain has become, if you observe, mechanical – the repetition of it, pleasure, the burden of fear and not being able to resolve it. So, gradually the brain, or part of the brain, has become mechanical, mechanical, in the sense we are using the word, repetitive, both biologically, as well as psychologically, repetitive, caught in certain patterns of belief, dogma, ideologies – the American ideology, the Russian ideology, the ideologies of India, and so on. Where there is the pursuit and a direction, which becomes mechanical, the mind and the brain deteriorate. Please follow this, if you will, kindly. | 我们的大脑，经由持续不断的习惯 ——它在习惯中找到了安全感—— 已经变得机械化了。 我不知道你们是否观察到了这一点。 这里“机械化”的意思就是陷入于习惯中， 遵循特定的模式， 在不同的领域中 一遍又一遍地重复那个模式， 但它仍然是模式化， 和例行公事的日常生活。 如果你观察下的话，你会发现 大脑已经变得机械化了 ——它在不断重复：重复「快感」， 背负着恐惧，无法解决恐惧的问题。 于是渐渐地，大脑 ——或者说大脑的一部分—— 就变得机械化了， 我们这里所使用的「机械化」这个词， 它的意思是「重复」， 既包括生物学上的重复， 也包括心理上的重复， 不断重复，陷入于某种信仰、教条 和意识形态的模板中——美国人的意识形态， 俄罗斯人的意识形态， 印度的意识形态，等等。 而当有了某种追求和方向 ——它们会变得机械化—— 心灵和大脑就会衰退。 如果可以的话，请你们跟上它。 |
| When we live a life that is repetitive, however pleasant, however desirable, however complex, a repetitive life, which is the same belief from childhood to death, the same rituals, whether it is church or the temple or wherever it is, the rituals, the repetition of it over and over again. The repetition of pleasure, sexual, or the pleasure of achievement, the pleasure of possession, the pleasure of attachment – all these make the brain deteriorate because they are repetitive. I hope we are meeting each other, this question. | 当我们过着一种重复性的生活 ——那么不管这种生活多么令人愉快， 多么称心如意，多么复杂， 它都是一种重复化的生活， 也就是说：我们从小开始直到死去， 都保持着同样的信仰， 同样的宗教仪式 ——不管是教堂、寺庙还是别的地方的仪式， 那些宗教仪式，一遍又一遍地重复这些仪式。 重复各种快感，性快感、获得成就的快感、 占有的快感、执著依恋的快感 ——所有这些都会让大脑衰退堕落， 因为它们都是重复性的。 我希望对于这个问题， 我们已经彼此理解了。 |
| So, as long as there is the pursuit of pleasure as a repetitive process, and the burden of fear, which man has not resolved but has run away from it, escaped from it, rationalised it, but it still remains, we are saying that the brain, or part of the brain, deteriorates. And this is very important, it seems to me, to understand. Because here is a country that’s very young, historically speaking. And is it already deteriorating? Or is there a new life being born, regenerative, creative – not in the technological sense, not in the inventive sense, not in writing new books and new ideas, but a mind that is not… a brain that is incapable of repetitive way of life. That repetitive pursuing pleasure, everlastingly, does bring about the deterioration of the brain. If you have observed this, and I hope in talking over together, you are observing your own mind. | 所以，只要还是存在着“对快感的追求” ——它是一个重复性的过程， 并背负着恐惧 ——人们并没有解决恐惧的问题， 而只是逃离了它，逃避了它，把它合理化了， 但恐惧依然存在着， 我们说：大脑，或者说大脑的一部分， 它已经衰退了。 在我看来，了解这一点是非常重要的。 因为这里，这个国家（美国）还非常年轻 ——从历史学的角度来讲。 难道它已经开始衰退了吗？ 还是说新的生命正在诞生， 它在不断更新，它是有创造性的 ——不是技术层面上的创造性， 不是指那些发明创造， 也不是指写出什么新书和各种新的理念， 而是指一个不会 一个不会去过重复性生活的心灵或大脑。 那种对于「快感」的永不停息的、 反复不断的追求， 它的确会带来大脑的堕落衰退。 如果你曾经观察过它的话， 而我希望在一起讨论的过程中， 你们正在观察自己的头脑。 |
| The words that the speaker is using and the speaker himself, please use the words and the speaker as a mirror in which you see, actually, factually, not theoretically, not as an idea, but actually use him as a mirror in which you see without distortion, and then when you see without distortion, you can destroy the mirror. You follow? So, the mirror doesn’t become the authority. You’re following all this? So, we’re not exercising any authority whatsoever, because in spiritual matters, in the matters of that which we are going to go into, any kind of authority, any kind of following, any kind of acceptance, as a guide, does destroy the total perception, and, therefore, the perception of what is true. So, if that is clearly understood, that the speaker is not your guru, under any circumstances. And gurus in this country are becoming a nuisance, to put it mildly. And there are gurus in India by the thousands, and so they are destroying that country, because they accept followers, they assume the authority as though they knew everything, but they are traditional, following a certain pattern, rituals and all the rest of it. What we are saying, is something entirely, totally different. So, together, we are going to question, explore, investigate and find out for yourself, not through the speaker, find out for yourself so that you are free human beings. | 那些演讲者所使用的词语， 以及演讲者本人， 请利用这些词语和演讲者来作为一面镜子， 而你可以通过这面镜子去如实地、真实地看， 不是理论上的看，也不是把它当成一个理念， 而是真正地把他当成一面镜子， 然后通过这面镜子去毫无扭曲地观察， 然后，当你可以毫无扭曲地去看时， 你就可以砸掉那面镜子了。 你跟上了吗？ 所以，那面镜子就不会成为权威。 你们跟上所有这些了吗？ 因此我们并没有行使任何权威， 因为在灵性事务上， 在我们即将要去探究的这些问题上， 任何权威、任何遵循、 任何赞同，将其作为向导， 它们都会破坏完全的洞察， 从而破坏对于真相的洞察。 所以，希望你们已经清楚地理解了这一点： 即无论在任何情况下， 演讲者都不是你们的古鲁。 这个国家里的古鲁正在变成讨人嫌的东西 ——我已经说得很委婉了。 在印度有着成千上万的古鲁， 因此他们正在摧毁印度， 因为他们接收了很多追随者， 他们假装是权威， 就好像他们无所不知一样， 但他们却是恪守传统的， 遵循特定的模式、仪式等等这些东西。 而我们在说的则是某种截然不同的东西。 所以，我们将会一起来质疑、探索 和探究，然后亲自去发现 ——不是通过演讲者—— 而是你自己去发现， 这样你才算是自由的人类。 |
| So, we’re asking, what is love? Is it pleasure? Pleasure, in the sense, sexual, the repetitive sexual act, which, generally, we call love. And the love of your neighbour, the love of your wife or the boyfriend, in which there is a great deal of pleasure, possession, comfort, based on desire – is that love? Where there is possessive attachment to another, there must be jealousy, there must be fear, and basic antagonism. Right? These are obvious facts, we’re not saying anything extraordinary or ideological, but we are moving together from fact to fact, from the actual to the actual, from ‘what is’ to ‘what is.’ | 所以我们要问：什么是「爱」？ 爱是快感吗？ 这里快感的意思就是性快感， 那种重复性的性行为， 这就是我们通常所说的“爱”。 而在对你邻居、妻子或男朋友的“爱”里面， 有着巨大的快感、占有、 舒适，这些都是基于欲望的 ——这是爱吗？ 当有了对另一个人的执著占有， 就必定会有嫉妒， 必定会有恐惧和根本上的彼此对抗。 对吧？ 这些都是显而易见的事实， 我们并没有在说任何异乎寻常的 或意识形态上的东西， 而是在一起从一个事实 前进到另一个事实， 从一个现实前进到另一个现实， 从一个“真实现状”前进到另一个“真实现状”。 |
| So, we are asking, what is love? Do you love your wife or your girlfriend or boyfriend – when I use ‘husband,’ ‘wife,’ you know, it implies both so I won’t repeat it over and over again – man and woman. Is there love? Actually, not theoretically. In that love, is there attachment? And is attachment, love? And what is the basis of attachment? Why is one attached to something – to a property, to an idea, to an ideology, to a person, to a symbol, to a concept which you call God? Why is there attachment? Because if we do not fully understand the significance of attachment, then we will never be able to find out the truth of love. Is not the basis of attachment the fear of being alone, the fear of being isolated, the fear of loneliness, the emptiness, the sense of insufficiency in oneself? Please examine all that we are saying. Don’t accept a thing that the speaker is saying, but look at it. But to look at it, to observe it, put away your personal prejudices, what you believe in, experiences, what you think about it, because you’re all here, after all, taken the trouble to come all… wherever you come from, to find out what the speaker has to say. But if you are full of ideas and conclusions about what you think love is, or don’t think what love is, then there is no possibility of communicating with each other. | 所以，我们在问：什么是「爱」？ 你真的爱你的妻子、女朋友或男朋友吗 ——当我使用“丈夫”、“妻子”这样词， 你要明白，它包含了这两者， 所以我就不再一遍遍重复了 ——男人（man）和女人（woman）这类词语也是。 你们之间有爱吗？ 事实上，而不是理论上。 在你们的“爱”中，是否有着「执著」？ 而「执著」是爱吗？ 执著的根基是什么？ 为什么我们要执著于某些东西 ——执著于财产、理念、 意识形态，执著于某个人、某个符号、 某种你称之为“上帝”的概念？ 为什么会有这些执著？ 因为如果我们不能充分理解「执著」的意义， 我们就永远无法发现关于「爱」的真相。 「执著」的根基是不是就是对孤独的恐惧？ 害怕被孤立，害怕孤单寂寞， 害怕空虚，害怕内心的缺失感？ 请你检视所有我们在说的东西。 不要接受演讲者在说的任何东西，而是去观察它。 去看它，去观察它， 放下你个人的偏见，你的信仰， 你的经验，以及你对它的看法， 因为毕竟，你们之所以在这里， 都是带着烦恼困境过来的…… 无论你是从哪里过来的， 你是为了搞清楚演讲者所说的东西。 但如果你心中充满了各种观念和结论 ——自认为「爱」是什么， 或者「爱」不是什么， 那么我们就不可能彼此沟通交流了。 |
| So, we are attached to people or ideas, to symbols or to a concept, because in that we think there is security. Is there security in any relationship? You understand my question? Is there security, which is really the essence of attachment, in your wife or husband? And if you want security in the wife or the husband or the girl and so on, then what takes place? You must possess, legally or not legally. And where there is possession, there must be fear of losing, and therefore jealousy, hatred, divorce and all the rest of it. So, we’re asking, is love attachment? Can there be love when there is attachment? – with all the implications of that word, in which there is fear, jealousy, guilt, irritation leading to hatred, all that, when we use the word ‘attachment,’ is implied. So, where there is attachment, can there be love? We’re asking factual questions, not theoretical questions. We are dealing with daily life, not an extraordinary life, because we can only go very deeply and very far if you begin with very near, which is you. If you don’t understand yourself, you can’t move far. And we’re going to delve into problems, which are tremendously important in our daily life. So, one has to go into this question logically, rationally, sanely, and then go beyond it, because logic is not love, reason isn’t love, and the desire to be loved and to love is not love. | 所以，我们执著于人、观念、 符号或概念， 因为我们认为在它们之中有着「安全」。 然而在任何关系中，有「安全」可言吗？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 执著的本质就是「安全」， 然而在你的妻子或丈夫身上， 有任何「安全」可言吗？ 如果你想要在妻子、丈夫， 或女朋友等人身上寻得安全， 那时会发生什么呢？ 那时你就必须合法地或非法地占有她（他）。 而当有了「占有」，就必然会害怕失去， 并因此而产生嫉妒、仇恨、 离婚等等这些东西。 所以我们要问： 「爱」是执著吗？ 当有了执著，还可能会有「爱」吗？ 「执著」这个词包含了很多暗示含义： 在其中有着恐惧、 嫉妒、负罪感、生气， 它们导致了憎恨敌意，等等， 当我们使用「执著」这个词时， 就暗示了这些东西。 所以当有了执著时， 还可能会有爱吗？ 我们正在问的是很实际的问题， 而不是理论上的问题。 我们正在处理日常生活， 而不是什么异乎寻常的生活， 因为千里之行， 始于足下，你要从自己开始。 如果你不了解你自己，你就无法走的很远。 而我们将会来深入探究这些问题， 这些问题在我们的日常生活中 是极其重要的。 所以我们必须要逻辑地、理性地、明智地 去探究这个问题， 然后再超越它， 因为逻辑并不是「爱」， 理性并不是「爱」， 想要被爱或者去爱的渴望 它也不是「爱」。 |
| So, we’re asking, what is love? And we’re saying that the negation of what is not love, in daily life, every moment of your life, the negation, to put aside what is not love, then out of that negation, comes the positive thing called love. You understand? We’re understanding each other? Not theory, not verbal understanding, but actually in our daily life. Otherwise, if you do not know how to love, if there is no love, then our society, the structure of our society becomes immoral, as it is, and if you love, your children will be totally different. So, one asks, if you are a parent, do you love your children, if you have children? Or you are merely attached, attached to them while they are very young and then push them away, let them lead their own life, and having no relationship with you as the parent. And so where there is no love, you’ll have wars, your children will be killed and maimed, and the other people’s children will be killed and maimed. This is what is actually happening in the world. | 所以，我们要问：什么是「爱」？ 而我们说：要去否定那些不是爱的东西， 在你的日常生活中， 在你生命中的每一刻里， 去否定它们， 将不是爱的东西扔到一边去， 那时经由这种否定， 便会产生出那个被称之为「爱」的肯定性的事物。 你们明白了吗？ 我们是否彼此理解了对方？ 不是理论上的理解，不是口头文字上的理解， 而是在我们的日常生活中切实地理解它。 否则，如果你不知道如何去爱， 如果没有爱， 那么我们的社会，我们社会的结构 就会变得不道德——就像现在一样， 而如果你有爱，那么你的孩子们 就会变得截然不同。 所以某人要问：如果你是一位家长， 你爱你的孩子吗——如果你有孩子的话？ 还是说你只是在他们很小的时候 喜欢他们、照顾他们， 但之后就把他们一把推开， 让他们自己去独立生活了， 然后他们和你们这些父母 就没什么关系了。 因此，当没有了「爱」， 你们便会有战争， 你的孩子会被杀死或致残， 而对方的孩子也会被杀死或致残。 这就是这个世界上实际发生的事情。 |
| So, what is the relationship of love to suffering? You understand my question? Because we are going into this question of suffering, which mankind, throughout the ages, has carried with him like a shadow. We are not philosophising. Philosophy means the love of truth, the love of wisdom. Not, as it’s turned out now in the modern world, a lot of theories put together, clever philosophers use their brain and their thought, always thinking. So, thought has become extraordinarily important. And, as we discussed the other day, thought is a fragment, it’s very limited, and thought cannot solve this problem of what love is. Thought cannot make, cultivate, love, because thought is a fragment. Thought is the movement of time from here to there, both physiologically, as well as psychologically. The man who says, ‘I am this and I must become that, psychologically,’ thought has brought about the space which is called time, and the measure. So, we are not philosophising in the modern sense. We are saying, we are dealing with daily actual everyday facts, and if we cannot understand them or run away from them, you lead the most extraordinary, miserable, conflicting life. | 那么「爱」和「苦」的关系是什么呢？ 你们理解我的问题吗？ 因为我们即将来探究关于「苦」的问题， 人类无数世纪以来一直在受苦， 苦难如影随形。 我们并没有把它哲学化。 哲学意味着对真理的爱、对智慧的爱。 而不是像它如今 在现代世界中的这个样子， 变成了拼凑在一起的一大堆理论， 聪明的哲学家利用他们的大脑和思想， 总是在不断地思考着。 所以，思想已经变得无比重要。 而就像我们前几天所讨论的一样， 思想是碎片化的，它是非常有限的， 思想是无法解决 关于“什么是爱”的问题的。 思想是无法创造和培育出「爱」的， 因为思想就是一个碎片。 思想就是时间的运动， 从这里到那里， 既包括生理上的运动， 也包括心理上的运动。 也就是：一个人会说，“我是这样子的， 但我必须变成那样的”， 思想在心理上带来了这种 被称之为“时间”的空间间隔 与量度。 所以，我们并没有把它哲学化 ——现代意义上的哲学化。 我们在说，我们正在处理 日常生活中的现实与事实， 而如果我们无法了解它们 或者逃离它们的话， 你的生活就会变得无比痛苦和冲突。 |
| So, we’re asking, what is the relationship of love to suffering? What is suffering? Why has man throughout the ages… suffered? There is the suffering when animals… the earth is destroyed. When the earth is misused there is suffering. When you kill animals and watch them suffering there is that kind of suffering. There is the suffering of – if you have ever watched yourself – there is suffering when you see a man who is dishonest, who is crooked, who says one thing, does another – that’s another kind of suffering. There is suffering when someone dies on whom you have relied, whom you think you love, and so on – there is that kind of suffering. Then there is the suffering of physical pain. There is the suffering of not being able to achieve, to become something, which is not fulfilling, as you call it. And there is the suffering of a human being, when he says, ‘I must achieve the greatest worldly possessions, power, money,’ and there is that kind of suffering. And, also, there is the suffering, which is not self-pity, a suffering when there is the perception what human beings can be and are not. You’re following all this? | 所以，我们在问：爱和「苦」的关系是什么？ 什么是「苦」？ 为什么人类世世代代以来…… 都在受苦？ 当动物们……当这个地球遭到毁坏时， 我们会感到痛苦。 当这个地球被滥用时，我们也会痛苦。 当你杀死那些动物， 并看着它们痛苦时， 你也会有某种痛苦。 而如果你曾经观察过自己的话， 当你看到一个人不诚实、 狡诈，说一套做一套时 ——这也是一种痛苦。 当某个你曾经依赖的人， 某个你认为你爱的人等等死去时， 你也会痛苦 ——这也是一种痛苦。 然后我们还有着身体上的疼痛。 以及那种无法获得成功， 无法成为某号人物的痛苦， 也就是你们所说的“无法自我实现”。 而当一个人说， “我必须达到最伟大的成就： 世俗的财产、权力和金钱”， 这也是一种「苦」。 此外，还存在着一种并非自怜的「苦」， 以及当你看到 人类本可以做到但却没有去做时， 你也会痛苦。 你们跟上所有这些了吗？ |
| So, there is vast human suffering. Wars have brought enormous suffering to mankind. I do not know if you saw some time ago, on the television the maimed soldiers returning home. Once I was taken to a hospital where the people who are wounded from the wars, in a state of appalling suffering. That is our inhumanity to man. So, there is this vast human suffering. When you think you love your wife or your husband and he or she turns away from you, there is suffering. So there is… you, as the human being, suffer, and the humanity suffers. You understand? And the mother, the sister and the wife and all everything man has done brings about suffering. The technological advancement has brought great benefits to humans but also it has brought great suffering. You have watched all this? So, what is suffering, why does man put up with it, why do you tolerate it? You understand my question? Why do you allow these things to happen? Which is asking the question, why do you live this way? You understand, sirs? | 所以人类有着巨大的「苦」。 战争给全人类带来了巨大的痛苦。 我不知道前段时间 你们是否在电视上看到了 那些受伤残废的士兵回家。 有一次我被带到了一所医院， 那里都是战争中的伤员， 他们痛苦不堪。 这就是我们对同胞惨无人道的行为。 所以存在着巨大广泛的人类的痛苦。 当你认为你爱你的妻子或丈夫， 而她（他）却离你而去时， 你也会痛苦。 所以我们有着…… 你作为人类的一员，在受苦， 而全人类也在受苦。 你理解了吗？ 而母亲、姐妹和妻子等等所有人， 人类所做的一切事情 都会带来痛苦。 科学技术的进步 给人类带来了极大的益处， 但它同样也带来了巨大的痛苦。 相信你们都已经目睹了这一切？ 所以什么是「苦」？ 为什么人类要忍受这些苦， 为什么你要容忍它？ 你们明白我的问题吗？ 为什么你们会允许这些事情发生？ 也就是，要问问这个问题： 为什么你们要这样子生活？ 你们理解了吗，先生们？ |
| One mustn’t become emotional, one must observe these things, factually, not escape from them, and then only we’ll be able to do something about it. When you make an abstraction, that is, move away from ‘what is,’ which is an abstraction – you understand? Move away, run away, escape from ‘what is,’ which is a movement of abstraction. Then that abstraction becomes an idea and you live according to that idea, but not according to facts. You see the difference? This is what we have done all our life, and now we are saying, please listen without abstraction. Which is, man suffers, man doesn’t know the enormous beauty, the depth and the significance of love. And, if you make an abstraction of it, that is, make an idea of it, make a conclusion about it, then you are not facing facts. So, together, we’re examining without making a concept of it, which is so easy because we think having a concept, a conclusion, makes us much more capable of dealing with ‘what is.’ But, whereas, if you look at ‘what is’ without the idea, then you can put your teeth into it. You are following all this? | 我们对此绝不能感情用事， 我们必须去观察这些事情， 从事实出发去观察，而不是逃避它们， 只有那时我们才能够对此做一些事情。 当你把它抽象化以后， 换句话说，当你离开了“真实现状”后 ——远离真实就是抽象化——你理解了吗？ 离开、逃离、逃避“真实现状”， 这就是一种抽象化的活动。 然后这种抽象化就会变成一种理念， 于是你会根据这种理念来生活， 而不是根据事实来生活。 你看到它们的区别了吗？ 这就是我们终其一生在做的事情， 而现在，我们说 ——请你们听好，而不要把它抽象化。 也就是：人类在受苦， 人们并不知道「爱」巨大的美， 并不知道「爱」的深度和意义。 而如果你把它抽象化了， 也就是说，把它变成了一个理念， 对它得出了某个结论， 那时你就没有在面对事实。 所以我们正在一起检视它， 而没有把它概念化 ——概念化是很容易的， 因为我们认为概念、结论 可以让我们更有能力 去处理“真实现状”。 然而，如果你不带任何概念想法 去看“真实现状”的话， 你就可以全神贯注地深入它了。 你们跟上所有这些了吗？ |
| So, why does man, woman – even the liberated woman – why do they put up with this suffering? Why worship suffering, which the Christians do, apparently? Why man, you… Comprehend what is the meaning of suffering. You understand, sir? What is it that suffers? When you say, ‘I am suffering. I suffer because I see animals ill-treated,’ ‘I suffer because my neighbour’s son is killed. ’ You follow? Who is it – please listen to this, give a little attention to what is being said, because nobody will tell you these things – when you say, ‘I suffer,’ who is it that is suffering? What is the centre that says, ‘I am in agony, of jealousy, of fear, of a loss’? Now, what is that centre – you follow? – the, I’ll use the word the ‘essence’ of man, you, as a human being who says, ‘I suffer, I shed tears’? Is that – please find out with me, though I have found out, but yet we are going together in it – is it the whole movement of time – time being the past, the present and the future, both psychologically as well as chronologically – is it the movement of time? Is it the movement of thought as time which creates the centre? You are following all this? No, please… Are we meeting each other, or is this becoming too difficult? | 所以为什么男人、女人 ——甚至是已经解放的女性—— 为什么他们要忍受这种「苦」呢？ 为什么他们要崇拜这种「苦」 ——基督教徒显然就是这么做的。 为什么人类，为什么你 要去理解「苦」是什么意思。 你明白了吗，先生？ 是什么东西在受苦？ 当你说，“我很痛苦。 我痛苦是因为我看到动物被虐待。 ” “我痛苦是因为我邻居的儿子 被杀死了。 ”你跟上了吗？ 那么是谁——请听好， 请稍微集中下注意力， 听一下我说的话， 因为没有人会告诉你们这些东西—— 当你说，“我很痛苦”的时候， 那个痛苦的人是谁？ 那个说“我感到极度痛苦、 感到嫉妒、感到恐惧、感到缺失”的中心是什么？ 请注意，那个中心是什么 ——你跟上了吗？ —— 我会使用这个词 ——即 人的“实质”， 你作为一个人，你会说， “我感到痛苦，我流泪了”？ 那么它是不是——请和我一起去发现它， 尽管我已经发现了它， 但我们还是要一起去探究它—— 它是不是就是整个时间的运动 ——「时间」就是过去、现在和未来， 既包括心理上的时间， 也包括日历钟表上的时间—— 它是不是就是时间的运动？ 是不是那种作为「时间」的思想的运动， 它创造出了那个中心？ 你们理解所有这些了吗？ 不，请注意 我们是否彼此理解了， 还是说它变得过于困难了？ |
| Sir, when you say, ‘I suffer,’ what is that ‘I’? How has that ‘I’ come into being? Having come into being, then you say, ‘I suffer, I am anxious, I am frightened, I am jealous, I am lonely,’ ‘I must be this.’ Is that ‘I,’ which is never stationary, which is always moving – I desire this and I desire that, and then I desire – it’s a constant movement. That movement is time, isn’t it? That movement is thought, isn’t it? So, sir, when you say, ‘I,’ there is the whole philosophy or whole concept in the Asiatic world, the ‘I’ is something which is beyond time. Or the concept that there is a higher ‘me’ is still in the Asiatic world. In the Western world, the ‘I’ has never been thoroughly examined. You have attributed qualities to it. The Freuds and the Jungs and all the psychologists have given a description of it, given attributes – you follow? – but never gone into this question of what is the nature and the structure of the ‘I’ which says, ‘I suffer. ’ You understand my…? Are you following this, some of you at least? | 先生，当你说，“我很痛苦”的时候， 这个“我”是什么呢？ 这个“我”是如何出现的呢？ 当这个“我”出现后，你就会说，“我很痛苦， 我很焦虑，我很害怕，我很嫉妒，我很孤独”， “我必须变成这个样子”。 这个“我”，它永远不会固定一处， 它总是在运动着 ——我渴望这个，我渴望那个， 然后我又会渴望其他东西 ——这是一种持续不断的运动。 而这种运动就是「时间」，不是吗？ 这种运动就是「思想」，不是吗？ 所以，先生，当你说“我”的时候， 在亚洲世界，关于这个“我”， 有着一整个哲学体系，一整套的概念， 这个“我”是某种超越时间的事物。 或者那种关于 更高层次的“我” 的概念 ——它仍旧是来自于亚洲世界的。 而在西方世界，这个“我” 从来没有被彻底完全地检视过。 你们赋予了它各种属性特质。 佛洛依德、荣格等心理学家 曾经描述过它（我），并赋予了它各种属性 ——你们跟上了吗？ —— 但他们从来没有探究过这个问题， 那就是：这个“我”的本质和结构是什么？ 这个“我”在说，“我在受苦”。 你们理解我的意思吗……？ 你们理解它了吗，至少你们之中有一些人理解了？ |
| And, we’re saying, is that… that ‘I’ is, as you observe, one day I say, ‘I must have that,’ and a few days later you want something else. There is this constant movement of desire. Right? Are you following this? Constant movement of pleasure, constant movement of what you must be, what you want to be, and so on, so on. We are saying this movement is time. Right? This movement is the structure and the nature of thought. The poor child is crying. So the ‘I’ who says, ‘I suffer,’ is put together by thought. Obviously. The thought says, ‘I am K,’ ‘I am John,’ ‘I am this, I am that,’ and thought identifies itself with the structure, with the name and with the form, which is the ‘I,’ with all the content of consciousness, which is the ‘I’ – fear, hurts, loneliness, despair, anxiety, guilt, the pursuit of pleasure, the sense of loneliness – all that, which is the content of your consciousness, which is the essence of the ‘I. ’ Right? Are you following? | 而我们在说：它是不是…… 这个“我”——就如你所观察到的—— 有一天我会说，“我必须要拥有那个东西”， 然后几天之后，你又会想要别的东西。 存在着这种持续不断的欲望的运动。 对吧？ 你们跟上它了吗？ 那种持续不断的快感的运动， 那种“你必须怎样”， “你想要变成怎样”等等的运动。 我们说：这种运动就是「时间」。 对吧？ 这种运动就是思想的结构与本质。 那个可怜的小孩哭了。 所以那个说“我很痛苦”的“我”， 它是由思想所拼凑起来的。 这是显而易见的。 这个思想在说，“我是克（克里希那穆提）”， “我是约翰”，“我是这个，我是那个”， 然后思想会让自己和那个结构、 那个名字和那个形象 ——也就是“我”——相认同， 与意识的所有内容相认同 ——意识的内容就是“我”—— 那些恐惧、伤害、孤独、绝望、焦虑、内疚， 追逐快感，那种孤独感 ——所有这些东西， 它们就是你意识的内容， 也就是“我”的本质。 对吧？你跟上了吗？ |
| So, when you say, ‘I suffer,’ what is that? Is the image that thought has built about itself, which is the form, the name and all that, is it that suffers? You’re following this question? Because, please, if you don’t, I will go into it in ten different ways. Because one can be free, totally, from sorrow, and when sorrow ends, there is not only wisdom, but also there is tremendous passion – not lust, passion, which has nothing whatsoever to do with a desire, with enthusiasm. So, without escaping, when you say, ‘I suffer,’ when you shed tears, when there is somebody that you love is lost, is gone, without escaping, running away from this sense of anxiety, loneliness, despair, not to run away from it, but to remain with it, totally. You understand? Because sorrow is the summation of energy. You are following? No, please, don’t shake your – you don’t… | 所以，当你说“我很痛苦”的时候， 这是什么意思呢？ 它是不是思想所建立起来的 关于自己的意象？ 也就是那个形象、名字，等等这些东西， 是不是它在痛苦？ 你理解这个问题了吗？ 因为，请注意，如果你没有理解， 我可以用十种不同的方式来阐释它。 因为我们是可以彻底摆脱掉「苦」的， 而当「苦」结束后，不仅会有智慧， 同样也会有巨大的「热情」 ——不是「欲望」，而是「热情」， 「热情」和欲望、和激情没有任何关系。 所以，不要逃避， 当你说“我很痛苦”， 当你流下眼泪， 当某个你所爱的人走了，离世了， 请不要逃避、不要逃离那种 焦虑感、孤独感和绝望感， 不要逃离它，而是完全地和它在一起。 你们理解了吗？ 因为「苦」是聚合在一起的能量。 你们理解了吗？不，请不要摇头 ——你们不能 |
| You know, any challenge – any challenge – the deeper the challenge, the wider the challenge, the more intense the challenge is, the greater energy is demanded to meet it. Sorrow is this challenge. And it is the essence of that challenge to which you have to respond. But if you respond to it by escaping from it, by seeking comfort from it, then you are dissipating the energy that you need to meet this thing. You understand? So, when there is no escape – and there is no escape because if you do escape, sorrow is always there, like your shadow, like your face, it’s always with you – and without escaping, to remain with it without any movement of thought. You understand? Are you doing this? We are talking together, we are looking, together, into this. So, do it now, not tomorrow. Do it now, as we are talking. We are saying, don’t escape from suffering, whatever that suffering is. Naturally physical suffering, you need to alleviate it, you need to quieten it, but we are talking about psychological suffering, the deep, inward pain of man. If you run away from it, you have not solved it, but if you remain with it, not identify yourself with it, because you are that suffering. But if you say, ‘I must identify with it, I must accept it, I must rationalise it,’ you’re moving away from the actuality of suffering. You are following all this? Please, sir, please, sir. So, without escaping, remain with it. Which means all energy, all your energy is present to meet this extraordinary thing that has happened, and out of that comes passion. The word ‘suffering’ has its root in passion, in the dictionary, if you go into it – I don’t want go into all that. | 你瞧，任何挑战——任何一种挑战—— 无论是更深层次的挑战、 还是更广范围的挑战、 那种挑战越是强大， 你就需要越强大的能量去面对它。 「苦」就是这种挑战。 它就是这种挑战的实质， 而你必须要对此做出回应。 但如果你的回应是逃避它，是从中寻求慰藉， 那么你就是在浪费 你本需要用来面对这个事物的能量。 你明白了吗？ 所以，当没有了逃避 ——之所以不逃避， 是因为哪怕你逃避了， 「苦」还是一直在那里， 它就像是你的影子、像是你的脸一样， 它总是会跟着你—— 所以不要逃避， 去和它在一起，而没有任何思想的运动。 你们理解了吗？ 你们正在这么做吗？ 我们正在一起谈论它，一起探究它。 所以，你是否此刻就在这么做，而不是拖到明天。 此时此刻，在我们谈话的时候就这么去做。 我们说的是：不要逃避痛苦，无论那是什么痛苦。 当然了，对于肉体上的痛苦， 你需要去缓和它， 你需要去减轻它， 但我们正在谈论的是心理上的痛苦， 那种人类内心深处的伤痛。 如果你逃离了它，那你就没有解决它， 但如果你和它在一起， 并且不把自己与它相认同， 因为你就是那个「苦」。 然而如果你说，“我必须要认同它， 我必须接受它，我必须把它合理化”， 那你就是在远离「痛苦」这个事实现状。 你们跟上这一切了吗？ 拜托了，先生，请务必理解它，先生。 所以不要逃避，而是与之共存。 这意味着所有的能量， 你所有的能量都在那里， 在面对着眼前所发生的非凡之事， 而从这之中就会产生出「热情」。 根据词典，「苦」这个词的词根 来自于「热情」， 如果你去研究一下它 ——我不想再深入下去了。 |
| So, there is a solution, there is an ending to sorrow, as there is an ending to fear, completely. Then only there is a possibility to love, because a man who suffers does not know what love is. But we think that we will learn something from suffering, that suffering is a lesson to be learnt. But when you observe suffering in yourself and not escape from it, remain with it totally, completely, without any movement of thought, of alleviation, comfort, just completely hold it, then you will see a strange, psychological transformation takes place. | 所以，问题是可以解决的， 「苦」是可以结束的， 就像「恐惧」是可以彻底结束一样。 只有那时才可能会有「爱」， 因为一个痛苦之人 是不会知道什么是「爱」的。 但我们却认为自己可以从痛苦中 学到一些东西， 痛苦可以让我们吸取教训。 然而，当你观察自己内心的痛苦 而不去逃避它， 和它完全地、全然地在一起， 而没有任何思想的活动 不去减轻缓和它，也不寻求安慰， 只是完全地将它捧在手中， 那么你就会看到一种不同寻常的、 心理上的转变发生了。 |
| So, love is passion, which is compassion. And compassion has its own intelligence. I wonder how much you understand all this, because without that passion and that compassion, with its intelligence, we are acting in a very limited sense. All our action is limited. Where there is compassion, that action is total, complete, irrevocable. | 所以「爱」就是热情， 也就是「慈悲」。 而「慈悲」有其自身的智慧。 我不知道你们中有多少人能理解这一切， 因为没有那种「热情」和「慈悲」及其智慧的话， 我们的行动将会是非常有限的。 我们所有的行动都会有局限。 然而当有了「慈悲」， 行动就会是完全、完整和不可改变的。 |
| What time is it, sir? Is it twelve? It’s twelve. I wanted to talk also, in relation to this, the question of death. Is there time for this? | 现在几点了，先生？ 十二点了吗？ 已经十二点了。 我还想要谈论一个与之关联的问题： 那就是关于「死亡」的问题。 |
| Q: Yes. | 还有时间来讨论这个吗？ 问：有的。 |
| K: No, sir, this is a tremendous problem, don’t… I’m not quite sure that you will understand this. Not verbally understand – any person can understand, verbally, about something or other – but we are going beyond using the words, and delving through the words into the depths of something that is most extraordinary. That is why I am wondering whether you are capable, you have the capacity to sustain – you understand? – sustain this energy to investigate into this great question of what is death. Shall I go on? | 克：不，先生，这是一个 庞大复杂的问题，请不要 我不是很确定你们能够理解它。 不是口头文字上理解它 ——任何人都可以在口头文字上 理解某个事物—— 但我们将会超越词语文字的使用， 然后透过文字词语去深入探究 某种无比非凡事物的深层意义。 所以我才会怀疑你们是否能够 是否有能力去保持 ——你明白了吗？ —— 保持这股能量 从而去探究这个巨大的问题： 即 什么是「死亡」？ |
| Q: Yes. | 我可以继续吗？ 问：可以。 |
| K: All right, sir. I am working and you are not working. You are listening to the speaker but you are not working with him. If you were, your brain would be exhausted. But the speaker is not exhausted, he can go on, but you are. I’ll go briefly into it, and perhaps tomorrow we can pick it up, and go also tomorrow into the question of what is meditation. Because all these things, like power, the demand for power, the hurts, fear, pleasure, the attachments, love, and so on, death and sorrow, are part of this whole process of meditation. You cannot possibly meditate if you have not laid the foundation. You understand? We think meditation is something away from this beastly life. | 克：很好，先生。 我正在努力工作，但你们并没有在工作。 你们只是在听演讲者讲话， 但并没有和他一起工作。 如果你们也在工作， 那你们的大脑肯定已经精疲力尽了。 但演讲者还没有精疲力尽， 他还可以继续下去，但你们已经很累了。 我会简要地来说一下它， 然后我们或许可以在明天继续探讨它， 明天我们也会来探讨一下 什么是「冥想」？ 因为所有这些东西的探讨， 比如权力、对权力的需求、 伤害、恐惧、快感、执著、爱，等等， 死亡和「苦」， 都是这整个冥想过程的一部分。 如果你没有打好这个基础的话， 你就不可能去冥想。 你们明白了吗？ 我们认为「冥想」是某种 远离这残忍野蛮生活的事物。 |
| You know, death is something, not only mysterious, but also it is a great act of purgation. You understand? You understand the word, to cleanse. I am using the word – I’m sorry you don’t understand the words I am using. I’ll explain each word as I go along. You know, that which has continuity is degenerating. I wonder if you understand this. That which continues, which is repetitive, which is in the same movement, in the same pattern. The patterns may vary according to countries and according to climates, according to circumstances, but it’s the same pattern. Moving in any pattern brings about a continuity. Right? Do you see that? And that continuity is part of the degenerating process of man. Whereas when there is an ending to continuity, something new can take place. You understand? This is simple. We’ll go into… You need a great deal of time to go into this question of what is death. Either you can understand it, instantly, because you have understood, you have lived and understood the whole movement of thought, as fear, hate, love, you follow? – all that, and you can then grasp the significance, instantly, of what death is. But, as most people don’t do this kind of work, we’ll have to work together to go into this. Though I’m not your guru, so don’t be a follower, of anybody. | 你瞧，死亡不仅是某种 神秘莫测的事物， 它同样也是一种 伟大的“净化（purgation）”的行动。 你理解了吗？ 你们都知道这个词（purgation），它的意思就是去“清洗”。 我所使用的这个词—— 我很抱歉你们并不理解 我正在使用的这些词是什么意思。 所以我会在演讲过程中解释每一个词。 你们都知道，凡是能够延续的事物 也都会衰退。 我不知道你是否能理解这一点。 那个延续的事物、重复性的事物， 那个落入同样的运动、相同模式中的事物。 那些模式或许会有所不同 ——取决于不同的国家、 气候、环境， 但它还是同样的模式。 落入于模式中的运动就会带来「延续」。 对吧？ 你们看到这一点了吗？ 而这种「延续」就是人类衰退过程的一部分。 然而当这种「延续」结束， 那么某种全新的事物就会发生。 你理解了吗？ 这是很简单的道理。 我们将会来深入 你需要大量的时间 来深入探究这个关于 “什么是死亡”的问题。 要么你立刻就理解了它， 因为你已经了解了， 你经历体验过了 思想的全部运动并理解了它， 那些恐惧、厌恶和爱，你跟上了吗？ ——所有这些东西， 于是你便能够立即领会它的意义 ——即什么是「死亡」？ 然而，由于大多数人并没有 去做这种工作， 所以我们必须一起努力 来探究它。 当然了，我并不是你们的古鲁， 所以不要当追随者，不要当任何人的追随者。 |
| What is death? When you ask that question, thought has many answers. Right? Thought says – I don’t want to go into all the miserable explanations of thought. Haven’t you noticed, when you ask that question, every human being has an answer to it, according to his conditioning, according to his desire, according to his hope, according to the demands of his comfort – you follow? He always has an answer. So, without having an answer, if you can, look at… let’s find out, without answering it. You understand? The answer will invariably be intellectual, verbal, put together by thought. But we are examining something totally unknown, totally mysterious death is a tremendous thing. I hope you can do this. | 什么是死亡呢？ 当你问这个问题时， 思想会有很多答案。 对吧？ 思想会说 我不想再展开讲 所有那些思想可怜糟糕的解释了。 你难道没有注意到吗， 当你问了这个问题后， 每一个人对此都会有一个答案， 这个答案是根据他的局限、他的欲望、 他的希望、他对于安慰的诉求而来的 ——你跟上了吗？ 他总是会有一个答案。 所以如果可以的话，请你不要有什么答案， 而是去观察一下 让我们去发现它，而不是回答它。 你理解了吗？ 因为回答永远都是思想智性上的东西， 口头文字上的东西， 它是由思想所拼凑起来的。 然而我们正在检视某种 完全未知的、彻底神秘的东西。 「死亡」是一件很惊人的事情。 我希望你们可以这样去做。 |
| We are asking, what is death? Obviously the organism dies – the organism. Please listen to it a little bit carefully if you really want to go into this, very deeply. Please give your attention, though you may be a little tired after an hour and five minutes or ten minutes. When we ask that question, what is death, one realises the organism, the body, with its brain, having been misused in various forms of self-indulgence, contradictions, effort, constant struggle, wears itself out mechanically, it’s a mechanism. And with it dies the brain. The brain is the residue, the holder of memory. Right? Memory as experience, as knowledge, and from that knowledge, experience, stored up in the cells of the brain, as memory, from which thought arises. When the organism comes to an end, the brain also comes to an end. Right? You are following this? Right? And so, thought comes to an end, because we said thought is a material process. Thought is nothing etheric or spiritual, it is a material process based on memory. Memory is held in the cells of the brain, and its response is thought. And when the organism dies, thought dies. You understand? And the thought has created the whole structure of the ‘me.’ No? I wonder if you understand all this. The ‘me’ that wants this, the ‘me’ that doesn’t want that, the ‘me’ that is fearful, anxious, despairing, longing, lonely, fearful – you follow? – the ‘me.’ That movement is brought about by thought, which is also a movement. So that ‘me’ put together by thought, and when the organism dies, thought which is material process, also comes to an end. Wait. Go into it very slowly. | 我们正在问：什么是死亡？ 很显然，有机体会死去 ——有机组织会死去。 请稍微仔细一点听好了， 如果你真的想要探讨它 ——非常深入地探究它的话。 请集中你们的注意力， 尽管你们或许已经有点累了， 毕竟已经听了一小时零五分钟， 或一小时十分钟了。 当我们询问这个问题： 什么是「死亡」， 我们会意识到有机体，这个身体及其大脑， 它们一直在被滥用， 我们以各种自我放纵的方式在滥用它们， 各种矛盾，努力，持续不断的斗争， 它被机械化地消耗殆尽了， 这是一种机械化。 然后大脑也随之死去了。 大脑就是记忆的残渣和容器。 对吧？ 记忆就是那些经验、那些知识， 而那些知识和经验， 它们作为「记忆」 储存在大脑的细胞中， 从中产生出了「思想」。 而当有机体结束的时候， 大脑也就结束了。 对吧？ 你们理解这些了吗？ 对吗？ 因此思想也就结束了， 因为我们说过： 思想就是一个物质化的过程。 思想并不是什么以太的、灵性上的东西， 它就是一个基于记忆的物质化的过程。 「记忆」就被安放在大脑的细胞里， 而它的反应就是「思想」。 而当有机体死去，思想也就消亡了。 你们理解了吗？ 思想已经创造出了“我”的整个结构。 没有吗？我不知道你们是否理解了这一切。 “我”想要这个， “我”不想要那个， 这个“我”感到恐惧、焦虑、绝望、 它在渴望、它很孤独、它很害怕 ——你跟上了吗？ ——这个“我”。 这种运动是思想所带来的 ——而思想本身也是一种运动。 因此那个“我”是由思想所拼凑起来的， 而当有机体死去， 那么作为物质化过程的「思想」 它也会走向终结。请稍等一下。 慢慢地来深入它。 |
| And you say, ‘Is that all?’ You understand? You follow? One has lived, struggled, acquired knowledge, suffered, and so on, so on, and you say, ‘Well, is that the end of it? What is the value of it? ’ You are following all this? I wonder if you are. What is the value of a human being who has lived, struggled, experienced – value in the sense, what is the significance of it? Just to acquire, live such an ugly, stupid, miserable wicked life, and then end? You follow? So, thought says, ‘No, this is not the end.’ So, thought says, ‘There is another world.’ That other world is still the movement of thought. You’re following all this? So, thought invents the other world. The world where you will be happy, the world where you will have all your desires fulfilled, where you will be most extraordinarily rewarded, sitting next to God. All that is the movement of thought, also. You’re following all this? See what thought does. See the danger of thought in the wrong place. Thought has right place, which is to function where it is absolutely necessary: technology, language – you follow? All that. But when thought invents and says, ‘That is, it is there,’ it is still the movement of thought. | 然后你会问，“这就是全部了吗？” 你理解了吗？ 你们跟上了吗？ 我们活着，努力奋斗， 获取知识，受苦受难，等等， 然后你说，“啊，它（死亡）就是这一切的结束吗？ 那这一切又有什么价值呢？ ” 你们跟上所有这些了吗？ 我不知道你们跟上没有。 一个人活了一辈子，努力奋斗，历经沧桑， 这一切有什么价值呢？ ——这里「价值」的意思就是： 这一切又有什么意义呢？ 只是为了获得…… 就去过这样一种丑陋的、愚蠢的、糟糕恶劣的生活， 然后以死亡告终？ 你跟上了吗？ 所以思想说，“不，这并不是终点”。 所以思想说，“还存在着另一个世界”。 然而“另一个世界”仍然是思想的运动。 你们跟上所有这些了吗？ 所以思想发明了“另一个世界”。 在那个世界里，你将会幸福快乐， 在那个世界里，你所有的愿望都会实现， 在那里你将会得到至高的福报， 可以坐在上帝的旁边。 所有这一切也是思想的运动。 你们理解所有这些了吗？ 看看思想都做了些什么。 看到思想被置于错误位置时的危险所在。 思想有其正确的位置， 思想的运作在某些地方 是绝对必要的： 比如科学技术方面，语言文字方面 ——你跟上了吗？ 所有这些。 然而当思想发明出了它（另一个世界）， 然后说，“它存在，它就在那里”， 那么这仍然是思想的运动。 |
| So, when one asks, when the brain comes to an end – the brain comes to an end through disease, through old age, through an accident, through misuse, the misuse of living in an illusion, living in a belief – all beliefs are illusory, all ideals are not based on fact. There is only fact, not ideals. So, the brain comes to an end with the organism, and so thought comes to an end. Thought realises this, very deeply, because thought is fairly cunning. So, thought realises, ‘This is not the end, there must be… I must continue.’ So it continues in an idea, in an illusion, in a heaven. Or in hell, everlastingly suffering, because you didn’t obey the laws of some priest. So that is… Please follow this. | 所以，我们问：当大脑结束以后 ——大脑会以多种方式而结束： 疾病、衰老、 事故、滥用， 这里“滥用”的意思就是： 生活在幻觉中，生活在信仰中 ——所有的信仰都是幻觉， 所有的理想都不是基于事实的。 存在的只有事实，而没有理想。 因此，大脑会和有机体一起结束， 由此思想也会终结。 思想深深地认识到了这一点， 因为思想是相当狡猾的。 所以思想有了这样一种认识： “这并不是终点，肯定还有 我必须要延续下去。 ” 因此它会在某个理念、某个幻觉、 某个天堂中“延续”下去。 或者在“地狱”中延续——永远受苦受难。 你进地狱是因为你没有遵守 某些神职人员的行为准则。 所以说……请跟上我的思路。 |
| So, we are saying, is that the whole meaning of living? You understand, sir? Do you understand my question? You bear children, you have pain, you struggle, you go through such misery, wars, hate each other, like each other, and suddenly end. So, one says, then what is the meaning of living? You’re following all this? One is always asking – again, please listen – one is always asking, what happens after death? We are asking quite a different question: what is before death? Not what is after death. You understand what I am saying? What is before death, which is your life? Right? What is your life? Go to school, college, university, get a job, live, man and woman live together, sex, he goes off to the office, she goes off earning some more money, bear children, pain, anxiety, each man fighting. You’re following? Going to an office for the next fifty years what a life you lead! This is your life, before death. And you want to know, living such a miserable life, you want to know what is after death. See what you are doing, sirs. I want to weep for you, but it’s no good weeping for you. | 所以我们说： 难道这就是生活的全部意义吗？ 你理解了吗，先生？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 你们生育孩子，经历痛苦挣扎，努力奋斗， 你们经历了巨大的苦难，那些战争， 彼此仇恨，彼此喜爱， 然后突然，这一切结束了。 那么我们就要问了：生活的意义是什么？ 你们跟上这一切了吗？ 我们总是在问 ——请你们再次认真听好—— 我们总是在问： 死后会发生什么？ 而我们正在问一个完全不同的问题： 死之前都发生了什么？ 而不是死后发生的事情。 你明白我在说的东西吗？ 死之前发生了什么？ 那就是你的生活，对吧？ 那么你的生活是什么呢？ 去读书，然后进入某所学院或大学， 找份工作，赚钱谋生， 一男一女生活在一起，做爱， 男人会去办公室上班， 女人也会出去赚更多的钱， 两人生下了孩子，经历痛苦、焦虑， 每个人都在斗争求生。 你们跟上了吗？ 去办公室上班，一上就是五十年， 看看你过的是什么生活！ 这就是 死之前 你的生活。 而你想要知道： 在经历了这种悲惨痛苦的生活之后， 你却想要知道死后会发生什么。 看看你们在做的事情吧，先生们。 我都想要为你们哭泣， 但为你们哭泣也没用。 |
| So, is that all? That is an apparent fact, isn’t it? Right? Are you following? Without inventing another world, without saying, ‘Yes, there is life after death, there is this…’ – you follow? The things thought has produced and they have written volumes about it, all based on thinking. Right? All saying, ‘I believe.’ So, if you put aside all that, literally, actually do it, put all aside, all that aside, then what are you faced with? The actual fact. The fact that you, who is put together by thought, comes to an end. Can you bear that? You follow what I’m saying? Can you see the fact of that? All your anxieties, all your longings, all your – when you die the brain, which holds thought, comes to an end. Now, if that, as it is so, then we can go into something which is entirely different. | 所以，这就完了吗？ 这是一个显而易见的事实，不是吗？ 对吧？ 你们跟上了吗？ 不要发明出“另一个世界”， 不要说，“是的，死后还会有来世，会有什么什么……” ——你明白了吗？ 那些思想所制造出来的东西， 而人们已经写了大量关于这方面的书籍， 这些书籍全都是基于思考的。 对吧？ 所有的书都在说，“我相信它”。 所以，如果你将所有这些都放在一边， 真正地放下， 真的这样去做，把所有这些放在一边， 全都抛开， 那时你面对的是什么？ 那就是现实中的事实。 这个事实就是： 那个由思想所拼凑起来的“你”结束了。 你能够承受这一点吗？ 你理解我说的东西吗？ 你能否看到这其中的事实？ 你所有的焦虑，你所有的渴望， 你所有的 ——当你死去，那个存放思想的大脑也会结束。 所以，如果是这样的话，事实就是如此， 那么我们就可以来探究 某种截然不同的东西了。 |
| So, we are asking, when all this ends, what is there? You understand? You understand my question? I wonder if you do. Look, sir, actually, when you’re living, as you’re living now, with vigour, with energy, with all the travail of life, as now, can you live now, meeting death now? You understand my question? You understand my question? Please, do you understand my question? Which is, I’m living. I’m living with my vigour, energy, capacity, though pain and all the rest of it – I’m living, and death means an ending to that living. Right? Now, can I bring the ending into my living? Have you understood what I am talking about? That is, to live with death all the time. You understand what I am talking about? That is, I’m attached to you, end that attachment. Which is death, isn’t it? I wonder if you see this. I’m greedy, and when you die, you can’t carry greed with you. So, end the greed. Not in a week’s time, or ten day’s time – end it, now. So you’re living a life full of vigour, energy, capacity, observation, see the beauty of the world, beauty of the earth, and also the ending of that, instantly, which is death. | 因此我们问： 当所有这一切结束后，还会剩下什么呢？ 你们理解了吗？ 你们明白我的问题吗？ 我不知道你们是否明白了。 你瞧，先生，实际上，当你在生活时， 就像你现在的生活一样， 你充满了精力和能量， 也有着所有那些生活的艰辛困苦 ——这就是你现在的生活， 那么此刻，你能否在当下的生活中 和死亡“相遇”呢？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 你听懂我的问题了吗？ 拜托了，你们理解我的问题了吗？ 也就是说：我在生活。 我用我的精力、能量 和能力在生活，尽管也会有痛苦 等等诸如此类的东西——我活着。 而死亡则意味着这种生活的结束。 对吧？ 那么，我能否将这种「结束」 带入生活呢？ 你们明白我在说的东西吗？ 也就是说：始终和「死亡」生活在一起。 你们理解我在说的东西吗？ 换句话说：如果我执著于你， 那就结束掉这种执著。 这就是「死亡」，难道不是吗？ 我不知道你们是否看到了这一点。 我很贪婪，而当你死后， 你是无法带走这种贪婪的。 所以，结束这种贪婪。 不是花一周时间结束它， 或者花十天来结束它——此刻就结束它。 这样你就会过上一种 充满活力、 能量、能力和观察的生活， 你会看到这个世界的美， 看到这片大地的美， 同样的，也要立刻就结束掉它（这种美） ——这便是「死亡」。 |
| So, to live before is to live with death. You understand something? Have you captured something? Which means that you are living in a timeless world. You understand? You are living a life of constant – everything that you acquire, you are ending, so that there is always a tremendous movement, not a certain place you’re fixed. I wonder if you see all this. Can you do all this? Will you do all this, or will you just listen and say, ‘Well, this is another idea, another concept.’ This is not a concept. When you invite death, which means the ending of everything that you hold, dying to it, each day, each minute, then you will find – not ‘you’ will – there is. Then there is no ‘you’ finding it, because you are gone. Then there is that state of a timeless dimension in which the movement as we know as time, is not. I wonder if you understand all this. | 所以，「死之前的生活」 就是和死亡一起生活。 你们是不是明白了一些东西？ 你们领会到一些东西了吗？ 这意味着你正活在一个超越时间的世界中。 你理解了吗？ 你在过着这样一种生活：其中有着持续不断的 ——你会结束掉你所获得的每一样东西， 因此自始至终都会有一种惊人的运动， 你不会固着于任何一处。 我不知道你们是否明白了这一切。 你能够这样去做吗？ 你会去做这些事吗， 还是说你只是随便听听，然后说， “噢，这只是另一种理念，另一个概念罢了”。 但这并不是一个概念。 当你邀请了「死亡」， 这意味着在每一天、每一分钟里 去结束掉你所执著于的一切事物， 让它死去。 那时你就会发现——不是“你”会发现——它就在那里。 那时并没有一个“你”去发现它， 因为“你”已经不在了。 那时就会有一种超越时间维度的状态， 在其中我们所知的那种 作为「时间」的运动已经不存在了。 我不知道你是否明白了这一切。 |
| I must stop. What time is it now? Twelve thirty. We will continue with this, tomorrow, because this is the depth of meditation. You understand? It means the emptying of the content of your consciousness, so that there is no time. Time comes to an end, which is death. You understand? Not ten years later or fifty years later, but now. Right. | 我必须停下来了。现在几点钟了？ 十二点三十分了。 我们明天接着讲它吧， 因为这是一种深层次的冥想。 你们能理解吗？ 它意味着清空你意识的内容， 由此便不会再有「时间」了。 「时间」结束了——这就是「死亡」。 你理解了吗？ 不是十年或五十年之后再死去， 而是此时此刻就「死去」。 就讲到这里吧。 |
