|
SD74CA17 - 冥想，一种遍及人的整个生命的关注
|
|
| Krishnamurti in dialogue with Dr. Allan W. Anderson | 克里希那穆提与 艾伦·W·安德森博士的对话 |
| J. Krishnamurti was born in South India and educated in England. For the past 40 years he has been speaking in the United States, Europe, India, Australia, and other parts of the world. From the outset of his life's work he repudiated all connections with organised religions and ideologies and said that his only concern was to set man absolutely unconditionally free. He is the author of many books, among them The Awakening of Intelligence, The Urgency of Change, Freedom From the Known, and The Flight of the Eagle. This is one of a series of dialogues between Krishnamurti and Dr. Allan W. Anderson, who is professor of religious studies at San Diego State University where he teaches Indian and Chinese scriptures and the oracular tradition. Dr. Anderson, a published poet, received his degree from Columbia University and the Union Theological Seminary. He has been honoured with the distinguished Teaching Award from the California State Universities. | J·克里希那穆提出生于南印度， 然后在英国接受教育。 在过去的40年里， 他曾在美国、 欧洲、印度、澳大利亚 和世界其他地方进行演讲。 从他终身事业的一开始， 他就断绝了与 组织化的宗教 和意识形态的所有联系， 并且表明他唯一关注的是 让人类彻底地、 无条件地自由。 他出版了很多著作， 其中包括《智慧的觉醒》、 《转变的紧迫性》、 《从已知中解脱》 以及《鹰的翱翔》。 这是克里希那穆提和 艾伦·W·安德森博士的 系列对话之一。 安德森博士是宗教学教授， 在圣地亚哥州立大学 教授印度经文和中国经文 以及传统神谕文化。 安德森博士出版过诗作， 从哥伦比亚大学 和纽约协和神学院获得了学位。 他曾被加利福尼亚州立大学授予 杰出教学奖。 |
| A: Mr. Krishnamurti, in our last conversation we came almost up to a point, the subject of meditation. And I was hoping that today we could share that together. | 安：克里希那穆提先生， 在上次谈话中 我们几乎要谈到这一点了： 冥想这个主题。 我希望今天我们能 一起分享这个话题。 |
| K: Right, sir. Sir, I don't know if you are aware of the many schools of meditation, in India, in Japan, in China, the Zen, and the various Christian contemplative orders, those who pray endlessly, keep going day after day, and those who wait to receive the grace of God - or whatever they call it. I think, if I may suggest, we should begin not with what is the right kind of meditation, but what is meditation. Then we can proceed and investigate together, and therefore share together, this question of meditation, the word meaning ponder, hold together, embrace, consider very, very deeply, the meaning of all that is involved in that one word 'meditation'. If we could start with saying that we really do not know what meditation is. | 克：好的，先生。 先生，我不知道你有没有注意到 现在有很多冥想学派， 在印度、日本、中国， 有禅宗以及各种 基督教冥想修道会， 那些日复一日、没完没了 进行着祈祷的人， 以及那些 等待着接受 上帝的恩惠——或者 无论他们称之为什么的人。 我想，如果我能建议， 我们不应该 从哪一种冥想是正确的开始， 而是从什么是冥想开始。 然后我们就可以着手一起探究， 进而一起分享 冥想这个问题了， 这个词意味着 沉思、结合、拥抱， 非常非常深入地思考 所有 包含于“冥想”这个词 当中的意义。 我们是否可以从 我们并不知道什么是冥想 开始讨论。 |
| A: Very well. | 安：很好。 |
| K: If we accept the orthodox, traditional, Christian, or Hindu, or Buddhist meditation, - and there is, of course, the meditation among the Muslims as the Sufis - If we accept that, then it's all based on tradition. What some others have experienced, and they lay down the method, or the system to practise what they have achieved. And so there are probably thousands of schools of meditation. And they are proliferating in this country; meditate three times a day, think on a word, a slogan, a mantra. And for that you pay $35 or $100 and then you get some Sanskrit word or some other Greek word, and you repeat, repeat, repeat. Then there are all those people who practise various forms of breathing. And the practise of Zen. And all that is a form of establishing a routine, a practice that will essentially make the mind dull. Because if you practise, practise, practise, you will become a mechanical mind. So, I have never done any of those things because, personally, if I may talk a little about myself... | 克：如果我们接受正规、传统的 基督教、印度教 或者佛教的冥想， ——当然还有 穆斯林苏非派的冥想—— 如果我们接受了那些，那冥想就 全是建立在传统基础上的。 其他人根据他们的经历 制定出方法， 或者建立起体系来练习 他们所取得的成果。 所以现在有大约上千个 冥想学派存在。 而且在这个国家， 这个数字还在增长； 一天要冥想三次， 去思量一个词、 一个口号或一曲曼陀罗。 而你要为此支付 35美元或100美元 来得到一些梵语 或者其他一些希腊语的咒文， 然后你一直反复诵念。 然后还有那些进行着 各种各样呼吸练习的人。 还有禅修。 所有这些都是 建立某个套路的做法， 是一种会从本质上 使心灵变得愚钝的练习。 因为如果你一直练习， 一直练习， 你的心智就会变得呆板。 所以，我从没做过这些事情， 因为， 就我个人来说，如果我可以 稍微谈下自己的话...... |
| A: Please do. | 安：请说。 |
| K: ...I have watched, attended, went into certain groups of various types, just to look. And I said, 'This isn't it'. I discarded it instantly. So, if we could discard all that: discard the Hindu, the Buddhist, the Christian, and the various importations of meditation by the gurus from India, and the contemplative - all that - as a continuance of a tradition, which is the carrying over of what others have said, and other's experiences, other's illuminations, other's enlightenment, and so on. If we could totally discard all of that, their methods, their systems, their practices, their disciplines. Because they are all saying truth, or God, - or whatever they like to call it - is something over there. You practise in order to get there. That is a fixed thing - according to them. Of course, it must be fixed. If I keep practising in order to get there, that must be static. | 克：......我曾经观察过、参加过、 加入过各种类型的团体， 只是为了去看一看。 然后我说：“这不是冥想”。 我立即就把它们抛弃了。 所以，我们能不能 将那些全部摒弃： 摒弃印度教、佛教、基督教 以及 从印度古鲁那里 引进来的各种冥想 与沉思——所有这些—— 那是传统的一种延续， 是接过别人说过的话、 别人的经验、 别人的启迪、 别人的领悟等等。 我们能否完全摒弃这些： 他们的方法，他们的体系， 他们的练习，他们的戒律。 因为他们都说真理或者上帝， ——或者不管他们称之为什么—— 是存在于别处的东西。 你为了到达那里就需要练习。 那是一种固定不变的东西 ——据他们讲。 当然，那必须是固定不变的。 如果我为了到达那里 而不停练习， 那个目标必须是静止不动的。 |
| A: Yes, of course. Yes, I quite follow. | 安：是的，那当然。 是的，我完全明白。 |
| K: Therefore truth isn't static, isn't a dead thing. | 克：然而 真理并不是静止的， 并不是一个僵死的东西。 |
| A: No, I quite see that. | 安：是的，我完全明白这点。 |
| K: So, if we could honestly put away all that and ask what is meditation. Not how to meditate. In asking that question, what is meditation, we'll begin to find out, we'll begin to meditate ourselves. I don't know if I... | 克：所以，我们能不能能坦诚地 将那些全部摒弃 并问问什么是冥想， 而不是怎样去冥想。 在提问什么是冥想的过程中， 我们将会开始发现真相， 我们自己也就开始了冥想。 我不知道我是否...... |
| A: Yes, you do. You make yourself very clear. We're back again to the distinction between an activity, the goal of which lies outside the activity, in contrast to the activity... | 安：是的，你已经表述得 非常明白了。 我们又回到了 这两种行为的区别： 目标在行动之外的行动 相对于...... 克......行动本身。 |
| K: ...itself. | 安：……本身就蕴含了目标的行动。 |
| A: ...the end of which is intrinsic to itself. | 克：是的，先生。 |
| K: Yes, sir. | 安：是的， |
| A: Yes. | 克：所以，我们能否从 |
| K: So, could we start with saying, I do not know what meditation is? | 我并不了解什么是冥想来开始？ |
| A: Yes. I'm willing to start there. | 安：是的。 我愿意从这点开始。 |
| K: It's really marvellous, if you start from there. It brings a great sense of humility. | 克：如果你能从这一点开始， 那真的是太棒了。 那将带来一种强烈的谦卑感。 |
| A: Also one intuits, even from afar, a freedom. | 安：还有即使从远处， 都能直觉地感到一种自由。 |
| K: Yes, that's right. I don't know. That is a tremendous acknowledgement of a freedom from the established known, the established traditions, the established methods, the established schools and practices. | 克：是的，就是那样。 我不知道。 那就会强烈地感受到一种自由， 摆脱了既定的已知、 既定的传统、 既定的方法，既定的学派 还有练习。 |
| A: Exactly. | 安：确实如此。 |
| K: I start with something I don't know. That has, for me, that has great beauty. Then I am free to move. I'm free to flow, or swim with, in the enquiry. So, I don't know. Now then, from that we can start. First of all, is meditation divorced from daily living? The daily conduct, the daily desires of fulfilment, ambition, greed, envy, the daily competitive, imitative, conforming spirit, the daily appetites, sensuous, sexual, intellectual, and so on. Is meditation divorced from all that? Or does meditation flow through all that, covers all that, includes all that? Otherwise meditation has no meaning. You follow? | 克：我从我不知道的东西开始。 对我来说，那其中 有着巨大的美。 那时我就能自由地行动了。 我可以自由地流动， 或者在探索中自由徜徉。 所以，我不知道。 那么现在， 我们可以从这里开始了。 首先， 冥想是脱离日常生活的吗？ 日常的行为， 每日里对成就的渴望， 野心、贪婪、嫉妒， 平日里争强好胜、 效仿、服从的精神， 平日里在感官享受、性、 智力等等各方面的欲望。 冥想是与那一切相脱离的吗？ 或者冥想 贯穿于那一切， 涵盖了那一切，包括了那一切？ 否则冥想是毫无意义的。 你明白吗？ |
| A: Yes, I do. This raises an interesting question I'd like to ask you. Perhaps you'd be good enough to help me clarify this. Now, I've never personally undertaken meditation with respect to its ritual character in some traditions or its... | 安：是的，我明白。 这让我想起一个有趣的问题， 我要问问你。 或许你足够善良， 愿意帮我澄清这个问题。 到现在，我个人 还从来没有进行过 这样的冥想： 某些传统中仪式性的冥想或者 |
| K: ...monastic. | 克：......僧侣式的冥想。 |
| A: ...its monastic and radically methodical approach. I've read rather deeply in the literatures, that have emanated from those practices. And I'm thinking, for instance, of what I've understood from my study of what is called the hesychast tradition, where what is called the Jesus prayer is uttered by the monks, particularly on Mount Athos, 'Lord, Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me, a sinner'. This is repeated over and over with the hope that someday it will become so automatic that, perhaps, as psychologists would put it, the unconscious comes into possession of it, so that what I am doing, whatever that may be, is itself focused entirely on that prayer. The claim being that when this is achieved, when I no longer have to utter the prayer, the prayer is uttering itself in me. | 安：......僧侣式的 极其方法化的冥想。 我深入研读过那些文献， 那种冥想都出自于这些练习。 而我在想，例如， 从研究中我了解到的 所谓的静修士传统是什么， 所谓的耶稣祷文 被修道士们吟诵， 尤其是在阿索斯山上， “主啊，耶稣基督， 宽恕我这个罪人吧。” 这句话被一次又一次地重复， 希望有朝一日它能 变得如此自动以至于 ——就像心理学家们说的那样—— 也许无意识占据了主导， 所以我正在做的， 不管那可能是什么事情， 本身就完全集中在了祷告上。 他们宣称当我完成这一步时， 当我不必再吟诵祈祷时， 祈祷会在我内心自动吟诵。 |
| K: The same thing, sir, is expressed in India in a different way, which is mantra. You know that? | 克：同样的事，先生， 在印度以一种不同的方式， 以曼陀罗的形式表达出来。 你知道这事吗？ |
| A: Yes. | 安：是的， |
| K: Repetition of a sentence or a word. And the repeating, loudly first, then silently. Then it has entered into your being, and the very sound of it is going on. |
克：对一句话或一个词的 反复吟诵。
这种反复吟诵，刚开始是大声进行的， 后来是无声的。
然后它就会融入你的存在，
而吟诵的声音会一直继续下去。
安：是的。 |
| A: Yes. | 克：从那个声音中， 你去行动，你去生活。 |
| K: And from that sound you act, you live. But it's all self-imposed in order to arrive at a certain point. Say for instance, in the prayer which you just now repeated: sin. I don't accept sin. I don't know what sin is. | 但那都是你强加于自己身上的， 为了达到某一个特定的点。 举例来说，在祷告中 你刚才所重复着的是：罪孽。 我不接受罪孽。 我也不明白罪孽是什么。 |
| A: I can just imagine the horror on the faces of those whose ears catch those words. | 安：我能想象恐惧 浮现在那些耳朵里回响着 祈祷文的人的脸上。 |
| K: Which means they are conditioned according to a belief that there is a Jesus, that there is a sin, that they must be forgiven - all that. It's just carrying on a tradition. | 克：那意味着他们受制于 某一个信仰： 存在着耶稣，存在着罪孽， 他们必须得到宽恕 ——所有那些。 这都只是在延续着一个传统。 |
| A: This speaks to me very personally. The basis for the decision that I made years ago not to do one of these things was embodied in your earlier statement, that it is expected that out of this word, or out of these words... | 安：你的话在我个人看来 非常有道理。 我多年前就决定 不做那些事中的任何一件， 这个决定的基础就体现在 你先前的主张中： 希望通过这个词， 或者通过那些词...... |
| K: ...out of breathing - all that. | 克：......通过呼吸——所有那些。 |
| A: ...will come somehow this permeation of my total being. And the question that arose for me at the time was - and I'd like you to clarify whether you think this question was correct - what arose in my mind was that statement itself, whether the mantram or the Jesus prayer, is itself a finite expression. | 安：......就能有某种东西 渗透进我的整个生命。 而我那时候想到的问题是 ——我也希望你能澄清 你觉得这个问题是否正确—— 在我脑中浮现的问题是 那个主张本身， 不论曼陀罗还是耶稣祷文， 本身就是一种有限的表达。 |
| K: Absolutely. | 克：绝对是的。 |
| A: Therefore, aren't I doing something strange here? | 安：所以，在这里我并没有 做什么奇怪的事吧？ |
| K: Yes. | 克：是的。 |
| A: And if I attain to anything that's worth attaining to, it could be in spite of that rather than because of it. That perhaps was thinking about thought. But I didn't feel it at the time, I thought that I was making an intuitive response to it. And therefore I simply wouldn't go ahead. Yes. Please, go on. | 安：如果我获得了任何 值得获得的东西， 可能是尽管有祈祷还是获得了， 而不是因为祈祷才获得的。 这也许是在思考想法， 但我当时并没有感受到。 我想我当时只是 凭直觉作出反应的， 因此我根本不会那么做。 是的，请继续。 |
| K: Quite right, sir. You see, all that implies that there is a path to truth - the Christian path, the Hindu path, the Zen, the various gurus and systems - there is a path to that enlightenment, or to that truth, or to that immeasurable - something or other. And it is there, all you have to do is keep on, keep on walking, walking, walking towards it. That means that thing is established, fixed, static, is not moving, is not living. | 克：太对了，先生。 你看，所有那些都暗示 存在一条通往真理的路 ——基督教的路， 印度教的路，禅宗的路， 不同的上师和体系—— 有一条通往那觉悟 或者那真理的路， 或通往那无限者的路 ——无论用什么名称。 而且它就在那，你所需要做的 就是坚持下去，一直走， 一直走，一直走， 走向它。 这意味着那个东西 是既有的、固定的、 静止的，是不动的， 是没有生命的。 |
| A: It flashed into my mind the Biblical text, in which God is described as the lamp unto my feet and the light unto my path. It doesn't say he is the path. But rather he's the lamp... |
安：《圣经》里的话 在我脑子里闪现了出来，
这里面上帝被描述成 能够照亮我脚步的灯
和能照亮我道路的光。
圣经上并没有说上帝就是那条道路。
而是说他是一盏明灯......
克：......来照亮道路，没错。 |
| K: ...to the path, quite. | 安：是的。 |
| A: Right. As a lamp to the feet, and a light to the path. But it doesn't say that God is the path. That's very interesting. | 作为照亮我脚步的灯 和照亮我道路的光。 但它并没有说 上帝就是那条道路。 这非常有意思。 |
| K: Very. | 克：非常有意思。 |
| A: But maybe nobody really looks at those words closely. | 安：但可能没有人会真的 仔细查看这些话。 |
| K: You see, sir, how you are looking at it already. You see the truth of that statement. The feeling of it. | 克：你看，先生，你是 怎么看待这些话的。 你看到了这段叙述的真谛， 它的感觉。 |
| A: Yes, yes. | 安：是的，是的。 |
| K: So, that's one thing. Does meditation cover the whole field of existence? Or is it something totally apart from life? Life being business, politics, sex. pleasure, ambition, greed, envy, the anxiety, death, fear - all that is my life, living. Is meditation apart from that or does it embrace all that? If it doesn't embrace all that, meditation has no meaning. | 克：所以，那是一件事。 冥想是不是涵盖了 整个生存领域？ 或者它是和生活完全无关的事？ 生活就是商业、政治、性， 快乐、野心、贪婪、嫉妒、 焦虑、死亡、恐惧 ——所有那些就是 我的生活，我的生命。 冥想是远离那些的 还是包含所有那些的？ 如果冥想不包含那些， 那冥想就是毫无意义的。 |
| A: Something just came to me that I'm sure would be regarded as incredibly heretical. But you know that the words of Jesus himself 'I am the way, the truth, and the life', when understood in the context of what has been revealed through these discussions we've had, takes on, in relation to something else he said, an incredibly different meaning from what we've been taught. For instance, when he asks Peter who he is, that is, 'Who am I, Jesus?' and Peter says, 'Thou art the Christ, the son of the living God' he immediately says, 'Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father, which is in heaven' which - he says elsewhere - is one with him, as he's one with the Father. And then he prays that the disciples be one with him, as he and his father are one, that they all may be one. So - I'm almost stuttering over myself - that, what I'm about to say, theologically speaking, would be looked on as fantastical, when he says, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life' if it's seen in the context of that 'one' as act, as act, then the whole business utterly is transformed. Isn't it? | 安：我刚刚想到了一件事， 我确信这将会被认为是 一种严重的异端邪说。 但你知道耶稣自己的话： “我就是道路、真理和生命”， 当理解了 通过我们所进行的这些讨论 所揭示的内容， 联系他所说的其他东西， 这句话就会呈现出 一种和我们被教授的 完全不同的意思。 例如，当他问彼得 他是谁的时候， 也就是问：“我，耶稣是谁？ ” 然后彼得说， “你是基督，是永生神之子”， 他立刻说， “血肉之躯不会向你透露这一点， 而是我在天堂的父亲”， ——他在别的地方说过—— 父亲和他是一体的， 正如他和父亲是一体的一样。 然后他祈祷门徒 能与他一体，就像 他与他父亲是一体的一样， 祈祷他们所有人都能够合一。 所以 ——我都快让自己结巴了—— 我打算要说的， 从神学上来说， 将会被当作异想天开来看待， 当他说：“我就是 道路、真理和生命”， 如果把“一体”理解为行动的话， 作为行动， 那么整件事就会完全改变。 不是吗？ |
| K: Quite, quite. |
克：是的，的确是的。
安：关于这一点我需要 |
| A: I'm going to be swallowing hard about that for a long time. Please go on. | 好好消化一段时间。 请继续。 |
| K: So, if it is divorced from life, then meditation has no meaning. It's just an escape from life, escape from all our travails and miseries, sorrows, confusions. And therefore it's not worth even touching. | 克：所以，如果冥想脱离了生活， 那么它就毫无意义了。 那只是一种对生活的逃避， 逃避我们所有的艰难困苦、 悲伤、困惑。 因此，它甚至不值得你去触碰。 |
| A: Right. | 安：是的。 |
| K: If it is not, and it is not for me, then what is meditation? You follow? Is it an achievement, an attainment of a goal? Or is it a perfume, a beauty, that pervades all my activities, therefore it has tremendous significance? Meditation has tremendous significance. Then the next question is: is it the result of a search? Joining Zen group, then another group - you follow? - one after the other, practise this, practise that, don't practise, take a vow of celibacy, poverty, or don't speak at all, fast, in order to get there. For me all those are totally unnecessary. Because what is important is the seeing - as we said yesterday - the false. Not I judge the false as true or false, but the very perception reveals the truth or the falseness of it. I must look at it. My eyes must look at it without any prejudices, without any reactions. Then I can say this is false, I won't touch it. That's what I... I won't! People have come to me and said - you have no idea of all the things - they have said, 'You must' I have said, 'Nothing doing' To me this is false, because it doesn't include your life. | 克：如果说它不值得， 对我来说不值得的话， 那么冥想是什么？ 你明白吗？ 它是一种成就， 一种对目标的实现吗？ 或者它是一种芬芳， 一种美，能遍及我的一切活动， 所以它有着惊人的意义？ 冥想具有惊人的意义。 那么另一个问题是： 它是追求的结果吗？ 参加禅修团体， 然后再参加另一个团体 ——你明白吗？ ——一个接一个， 练习这个，练习那个， 或者不要练习， 发誓要禁欲，忍受贫穷， 或者禁言，斋戒， 只为了到达那里。 对我来说，所有这些 都是完全不必要的。 因为重要的是看到 ——就像我们昨天讨论的—— 虚假。 不要依照真实或虚假 去判断虚假， 而是洞察本身就会 揭露它的真实或虚假。 我必须观察它， 我的眼睛必须 不带任何偏见地观察它， 也不带任何反应。 然后我可以说这是虚假的， 我不会碰它。 那就是我所...... 我不会碰！ 人们到我这里来，说 ——你对这一切都不了解—— 他们说，“你必须”， 我说，“办不到”。 对我来说这是虚假的， 因为那没有包含你的生活。 |
| A: Yes. | 安：是的。 |
| K: You haven't changed! You may say, 'I'm full of love. I'm full of truth. I'm full of knowledge. I'm full of wisdom'. I say, 'That's all nonsense. Do you behave? Are you free of fear? Are you free of ambition, greed, envy, and the desire to achieve success - in every field? If not, you are just playing a game, you are not serious'. So, from that we can proceed. | 克：你还是没变！ 你可能会说：“我充满了爱。 我充满了真理。 我学识渊博。 我充满智慧。” 我说：“那都是胡扯。 你行为端正吗？ 你无所畏惧吗？ 你摆脱了野心、贪婪、嫉妒吗？ 你摆脱了在任何一个领域中 获得成功的渴望了吗？ 如果没有， 你就只是在玩一场游戏， 你不是认真的。 ” 所以，从那里我们就可以开始了。 |
| A: Yes. | 安：是的。 |
| K: That meditation includes the whole field of existence, whether in the artistic field or the business field. Because, to me, the division as the artist, business, the politician, the priest, the scholar, and the scientist - you know how we have fragmented all these as careers. To me, as human beings are fragmented, the expression of this fragmentation is this: business, scientist, the scholar, the artist. You follow? | 克：冥想是包含整个生活领域的， 不管是艺术领域 还是经济领域。 所以，对我来说， 按艺术家、商人、 政客、牧师、学者， 还有科学家来划分 ——你知道我们是怎样 以职业来划分那些人的， 对我来说， 由于人类已经被划分得 支离破碎了， 那种划分的表现是这样的： 商人，科学家，学者，艺术家。 你明白吗？ |
| A: Yes, yes, yes. I'm thinking of what goes on in the academy with respect to this. We are always saying to each other as academicians, for heaven's sake, let's find an ordering principle by which to bring all this into some kind of integration, so the student really can feel that he's doing something meaningful. And not just adding another freight car to the long train of what he doesn't even see. | 安：是的，是的，是的。 我在思考研究院里 在这方面发生的事情。 我们总是把彼此 当作学者来进行交谈， 看在老天的份上， 让我们找到一个整顿原则， 按照这个原则 能使这一切很好地融合， 这样学生才会真正 觉得自己在做一件 有意义的事情。 而不是把另一节货车车厢 加到他自己甚至都看不到的 长长的火车上。 |
| K: Quite, quite. | 克：的确，的确。 |
| A: Yes. | 安：是的。 |
| K: And meditation must be, or is, when you deny all these systems, methods, gurus, authorities, it becomes a religious question. | 克：而且冥想一定是，或者就是 ——当你否定了所有那些 体系、方法、上师、权威—— 它会成为一个宗教问题。 |
| A: Yes, profoundly religious. | 安：是的，具有深刻的宗教性。 |
| K: Profoundly religious. | 克：深刻的宗教性。 |
| A: Oh yes. | 安：哦，是的。 |
| K: Now, what place has an artist in... not only the social structure, in its expression of the religious? You understand? What is an artist, sir? Is he something apart from our daily living? The beauty of living. The quality of a mind that is really religious. You follow? Is he part of that? Or is he a freak, outside that? Because he has certain talents, the expression of that talent becomes extraordinarily important to him and to the people. | 克：那么，艺术家 不仅在社会结构中， 而且在对宗教的表达中 具有什么地位？ 你明白吗？ 怎样才是一位艺术家，先生？ 他是远离我们日常生活的吗？ 生活之美。 真正具有宗教精神的 心灵品质。 你明白吗？ 他是那种品质的一部分吗？ 抑或他是个怪胎，是在那之外的？ 因为他有某些才华， 于是那种才华的表露 对他和人们来说 就变得特别重要。 |
| A: In our culture it often seems that the expression of that talent brings him into conflict with certain conventions. | 安：在我们的文化里，似乎 才华的表露 会把他带入与某些习俗的冲突。 |
| K: And also expressing that conflict in himself. |
克：同时也显露了 他自己内心的冲突。
安：当然。 |
| A: Of course. Yes, we have a long tradition in Western civilisation of the artist as an outsider, don't we? |
是的，我们西方文明中 有一个悠久的传统
是把艺术家当作局外人的， 不是吗？
克：是的，某种外在的事物。 |
| K: Yes. Something outside. But he is much more sensitive, much more alert to beauty, to nature, but apart from that, he is just an ordinary man. |
但他更敏感，
对美、对自然更敏锐，
但是除此之外， 他只是一个普通人而已。
安：是的，当然。 |
| A: Yes, of course. Yes. | 是的。 |
| K: To me, that is a contradiction. First be a total human being. And then whatever you create, whatever you do will be beautiful. Whether you paint, or whatever you do. Don't let's divide the artist into something extraordinary, or the business man into something ugly. Let's call it just living in the world of the intellect, or the scientist in the world of physics, and so on. But first, there must be human being. You follow, sir? Human being in the sense the total understanding of life, death, love, beauty, relationship, responsibility, not to kill - all that is implied in living. Therefore he establishes a relationship with nature. And the expression of that relationship, if it is whole, healthy, is creative. |
克：对我来说，那是一种矛盾。
首先成为一个完整的人，
然后你所创造的一切，
你所做的一切 都将是美好的，
不论你是画画 还是做别的什么。
让我们别把艺术家 划归不同寻常的一类，
或者把商人划归丑陋的一类人。
姑且让我们称之为 活在这个智力的世界中，
或者说科学家活在 物理的世界中，等等。
但是首先，必定先要有人，
你明白吗，先生？
这里的人，意思是 他完整地理解了生命、
死亡、爱、美、关系、
责任、不杀生 ——生活中所包含的一切。
因此他与大自然建立了一种关系，
而那种关系的表达，
如果是完整的、健康的， 它就是富有创造力的。
安：这非常不同于 |
| A: This is very, very different from what many artists conceive of as their task. Especially in modern times artists have this notion that they are in some sense reflectors of the fragmentation of their times. | 许多艺术家对于 自己工作的想法。 特别是在现代 艺术家们会拥有这种观念： 从某种意义上来说， 他们就反映了 他们所处时代的分裂。 |
| K: Absolutely. |
克：没错。
安：所以他们发表了一种说法， |
| A: And so they make a statement which holds up the fragmentation as a mirror to us, which is just reinforcing the fragmentation. | 这种说法就像一面镜子一样 将这种分裂展示给我们看， 同时又恰恰 加强了这种分裂。 |
| K: Absolutely. | 克：是的。 |
| A: Yes. I quite understand. |
安：是的，我完全明白。
克：你看 |
| K: You see that meditation covers the whole field of existence. Meditation implies freedom from the method, the system, because I don't know what meditation is. I start from that. | 冥想涵盖了整个生存领域。 冥想意味着摆脱 方法、体系， 因为我不知道冥想是什么。 我就从这里开始。 |
| A: Yes. | 安：是的。 |
| K: Therefore I start with freedom. Not with their burden. |
克：所以我带着自由开始， 而不是带着他们的负担。
安：这棒极了。 |
| A: That's marvellous. Start with freedom and not with their burden. This business of holding up fragmentation to us from that perspective is really nothing more than a species of journalism. | 带着自由开始， 而不是带着他们的负担。 而把分裂从那个角度 向我们展示， 这件事情只不过是 一种新闻工作。 |
| K: Journalism, absolutely. |
克：没错，新闻工作。
安：不是吗？是的，当然是。 |
| A: Isn't it? Yes, of course. | 克：宣传。 |
| K: Propaganda. | 安：是的，当然。 |
| A: Of course, yes. | 克：所以，是谎言。 |
| K: Therefore, lie. So I discard all that. So I have no burden. Therefore the mind is free to enquire what is meditation. |
所以我摒弃了那一切。 所以我没有负担。
因此心灵才能自由地 探询什么是冥想。
安：棒极了。 |
| A: Marvellous. | 克：我这么做了， 你明白吗，先生？ |
| K: I have done this, you follow, sir? It is not verbal expression, I don't say anything which I haven't lived. |
这不是口头上说说的，
我不会说任何 我没活出来的东西。
安：哦，那是显而易见的，对于我 |
| A: Oh, that's very obvious to me as one sitting here conversing with you. Yes. |
这个坐在这里 和你交谈的人来说。是的。
克：我不会的，那样太虚伪了。 |
| K: I won't. That is hypocrisy. I am not interested in all that. I'm really interested in seeing what is meditation. So one starts with this freedom. And freedom means freeing the mind, emptying itself of the burdens of others, their methods, their systems, their acceptance of authority, their beliefs, their hope, because it's part of me, all that. Therefore I discard all that. And now I start by saying, I don't know what meditation is. I start - that means the mind has this sense of great humility. Not knowing, I'm not asking! Then somebody will fill it! | 我对那一切都不感兴趣。 我真的有兴趣看看 到底什么是冥想。 所以一个人开始 就要有这种自由。 而自由就意味着解放心灵， 清空心中他人带来的负担， 他们的方法，他们的体系， 他们对权威的接受， 他们的信仰，他们的期望， 因为那就是我的一部分， 那一切。 所以我摒弃了那一切。 现在我从说“我不知道 什么是冥想”开始。 我开始——那意味着心灵 具有这种强烈的谦卑感。 我不知道，但我不是在询问！ 那样就会有人来填写答案的！ |
| A: Exactly. |
安：是的。
克：某本书，某个学者， 某个教授， |
| K: Some book, some scholar, some professor, some psychologist comes along and says, 'You don't know. Here, I know. I'll give it to you'. I say, 'Please don't'. I know nothing. You know nothing either! Because you are repeating what others have said. So I discard all that. Now I begin to enquire. I'm in a position to enquire. Not to achieve a result, not to arrive at what they call enlightenment. Nothing. I don't know if there is enlightenment or not. I start with this feeling of great humility, not knowing, therefore the mind is capable of real enquiry. So I enquire. First of all, I look at my life, because I said at the beginning: meditation implies covering the whole field of life. My life, our life, is first the daily conscious living. I've examined, I've looked at it, there is contradiction, and so on - we've been talking about that. And also there is the question of sleep. I go to sleep, eight, nine, ten hours. What is sleep? I start not knowing. Not what others have said. You follow, sir? | 某个心理学家会出现， 并且说， “你不知道，而我知道。 我会告诉你的。 ” 我说，“拜托，不必了”。 我一无所知， 你也一无所知！ 因为你只不过在重复 别人说过的话。 所以我摒弃了那一切。 现在我开始去探询。 我处于探询的位置上， 而不是去追求一个结果， 也不是达到他们所谓的开悟。 我一无所求。 我不知道是否存在开悟。 我是带着强烈的谦逊感开始， 我一无所知， 这样心灵才有探询的能力。 于是我去探询。 首先，我来看自己的生活， 因为我在一开始就说过： 冥想包含着 生活的整个领域。 我的生活，我们的生活，是首要的， 这个有意识的日常生活。 我仔细观察过、 审视过我的生活， 里面存在着 诸如矛盾之类的东西 ——我们已经讨论过的。 同时还有着睡眠的问题。 我去睡觉， 睡上八个、九个、十个小时。 什么是睡眠？ 我从一无所知开始， 不是从别人说过的话开始。 你明白吗，先生？ |
| A: Yes, I do. | 安：是的，我明白。 |
| K: I'm enquiring in relation to meditation, which is the real spirit of religion. That is, gathering all the energy to move from one dimension to a totally different dimension. Which doesn't mean divorce from this dimension. |
克：我的探询与冥想有关， 这是
真正的宗教精神。
那就是，聚集一切能量
从一个维度转向
另一个完全不同的维度。
那并不意味着 从这个维度脱离。
安：没错，并非像那些 隐居山中的修道士一样。 |
| A: No, it's not like those monks going up the hill. | 克：我曾经到过那些山上。 |
| K: I've been up those hills. | 安：是的。 |
| A: Yes. | 克：那么，什么是沉睡？ |
| K: So, what is sleep? And what is waking? Am I awake? Or I am only awake when there is a crisis, when there is a shock, when there is a challenge, when there is an incident, death, discard, failure. You follow? Or am I awake all the time, during the daytime? So, what is it to be awake? You follow me, sir? | 什么是清醒？ 我是醒着的吗？ 或者只有当出现危机的时候 我才是醒着的， 当出现一种打击， 出现一个挑战时， 当出现一个偶然事件， 死亡、遗弃、失败时 我才是清醒的。 你明白吗？ 还是在白天的时候， 我时时刻刻都是清醒的？ 那么，什么是清醒？ 你明白我说的吗，先生？ |
| A: Yes, I am, I am. Since you are saying that meditation must permeate, obviously, to be awake cannot be episodic. |
安：是的，我明白，我明白。
因为你说冥想必须 遍及整个领域，
那么显而易见，保持清醒 不能是偶尔发生的。
克：就是这样， 那不能是偶尔发生的。 |
| K: That's it. Cannot be episodic. Cannot be something stimulating. |
不能是因为 有某种东西能带来刺激。
安：不能被描述成高峰体验。 |
| A: Can't be described as peak experiences. | 克：不能，不能。 |
| K: No, no. Any form of stimulation, external or internal, only implies that you are asleep and you need a stimulant, whether it is coffee, sex, or a tranquilliser. All keep you awake. |
任何形式的刺激， 不管外在的或内在的，
都只意味着你是睡着的， 于是你需要一种刺激，
不管那刺激是咖啡、 性或者镇定剂。
那些都能使你保持清醒。
安：受到一个打击睡过去， 然后受到一个打击醒过来。 |
| A: Have a shock to go to sleep and have a shock to wake up. | 克：所以，在探究的过程中， 我问：我是醒着的吗？ |
| K: So, in my enquiry, I am asking: am I awake? What does it mean to be awake? Not awake to what is happening, politically, economically, socially - that is obvious. But awake. What does it mean? I am not awake if I have any burden. Right, sir? There is no sense of being awake when there is any kind of fear. If I live with an illusion, if my actions are neurotic, there is nostate of being awake. So, I'm enquiring, and I can only enquire by becoming very sensitive to what is happening in me, outside me. So, is the mind aware, during the day, completely, to what is happening inside, outside of me? |
保持清醒意味着什么？
不是意识到
政治上、经济上、社会上发生了什么 ——那是显而易见的。
而是保持清醒。
那意味着什么？
如果我有任何负担， 我就不是清醒的。
对吗，先生？
当有任何形式的恐惧的时候，
是没有清醒存在的。
如果我生活在一种错觉中，
如果我的行动是神经质的，
这就不是处于清醒的状态。
所以，我在探究，
而我的探究只有通过
对我内在和外在发生的事情 变得非常敏感来进行。
那么，在白天的时候，心智
对于发生在我内在和外在的一切 是完全觉知的吗？
安：在每一个瞬间。 |
| A: Upon every instant. | 克：就是这样。 |
| K: That's it. Otherwise I am not awake. |
否则我就不是清醒的。
安：我刚才就在思考一件 |
| A: I was just thinking about something that has always given me a great sense of wonder. At home we have some birds and a cat too. |
总是让我有强烈好奇心的事。
我们在家里养了几只鸟， 还养了一只猫。
克：是的。 |
| K: Of course. | 安：但是它们都很喜欢彼此。 |
| A: But they love one another. The birds don't run around in the room with the cat, but the cat supervises the birds. When the birds are put to bed in the evening the cat goes into that room and stays with them, maybe an hour or two, watches. Just seems to have the feeling that it must look after the birds. And in the day time, I've often watched the cat sit and look at the birds with an immense intensity, and the ordinary reaction is 'Haven't you seen them before?' What is this everlasting intensity? But she's looking. |
鸟儿们不会
追着猫在房间里到处飞， 但是猫会照看着鸟儿们。
当鸟儿们晚上睡觉时，
猫就会进入那个房间， 和它们待在一起，
可能守候一个或两个小时。
就好像有种感觉
它一定要照看好那些鸟儿。
而且在白天， 我经常看到猫坐在那儿，
用一种带着高度关注的眼神 看着鸟儿们。
这时我们通常的反应是
“难道你之前没见过它们吗？
”
这种持久的热情是怎么回事？
可她就那么看着。
克：对的，先生。 |
| K: That's right, sir. | 安：而且她的眼睛总是像宝石一样的...... |
| A: And her eyes are always with that jewel-like... | 克：......清澈。 |
| K: ...clarity. | 安：......热烈而又清澈。 |
| A: ...intensity and clarity. Cleaner than flame. And it never stops. And when she sleeps, she really sleeps - yes. When you asked me what is sleep, there must be a relation between the wonder that we feel for the cat's ability completely to sleep. And when she awakes she's completely awake. |
比火焰还纯洁。而且从不停歇。
而当她睡觉时， 她真地睡着了——是的。
当你问我什么是睡眠时，
这一定和我们
从猫完全睡着的能力中 所感到的神奇有某种关系。
而当她醒来时， 她也是完全清醒的。
克：是的，先生。 |
| K: That's right, sir. So, in asking and enquiring what is sleep I must also ask what is to be awake. Am I awake, or is the past so alive that it is dictating my life in the present? Therefore I am asleep. |
所以，在提问和探究什么是睡眠时
我也必须要问什么是清醒。
我是清醒的吗？
还是说过去是如此活跃
以至于它支配着我现在的生活？
所以我沉睡着。
安：你能再说一遍吗？ 这很重要。 |
| A: Would you say that again? It's very important. | 克：我不知道我怎么...... 我会用另一种方式来表述。 |
| K: I don't know how I... I'll put it differently. Am I awake? Is my mind burdened with the past? And therefore bearing a burden, I'm not awake to the present. | 我是醒着的吗？ 我的心是不是 带着过去的负担？ 所以不堪重负， 我对此刻并不清醒。 |
| A: Not awake in the present, exactly. |
安：此刻...
并不清醒，的确是的。
克：不是我所谈的那种清醒。 |
| K: Not awake as I am talking. | 安：对。 |
| A: That's right. | 克：因为我是根据 我过去的背景来说话的， |
| K: Because I'm talking from the background of my past, of my experience, my failures, my hurts, my depressions. Therefore the past is dominating and putting me to sleep now. | 以我的经历、我的失败、 我的痛苦、我的沮丧为背景。 因此，过去在 支配着我，让我在此刻睡去。 |
| A: To sleep. It's a narcotic. | 安：睡去。 它是一种麻醉剂。 |
| K: Narcotic. Therefore, what am I to do with the past? |
克：麻醉剂。
所以，我要拿我的过去怎么办？
安：是的，我明白。 克：过去是必要的。 |
| A: Yes, I do. | 安：当然，整个知识领域。 |
| K: Past is necessary. | 克：知识，过去是必要的。 |
| A: Of course, the whole field of knowledge. | 但是当过去遮蔽了现在， |
| K: Knowledge. Past is necessary. But when the past covers the present, then I am asleep. So, is it possible to know what the past is and not let it overflow into the present? That question and the reality of it brings its own discipline. Therefore I say, yes, I know what it means. I can live, I can keep awake totally and widely and yet operate in the field of knowledge. So there is no contradiction. I don't know if I am conveying it? |
那么我就睡着了。
所以，有没有可能
去认识过去是什么
并且防止它泛滥到现在？
这个问题和它的真实性
会产生它自身的纪律。
所以我说，是的， 我知道那意味着什么。
我能活着，我能保持完全
彻底的清醒，同时 又在知识的领域里运转。
所以这里不存在矛盾。
我不知道我有没有表达清楚？
安：哦，清楚，清楚了。 |
| A: Oh, you are,you are. | 克：因此两者是在和谐中运行的。 |
| K: So both are moving in harmony. One doesn't lag behind the other. One doesn't contradict the other. There is balance. |
其中一个并不会落后于另一个，
也不会抵触另一个。
这里有着一种平衡。
安：我在这里所发现的， |
| A: What I am seeing here, if I am following correctly, is on the one hand, we have knowledge and its necessity with respect to know-how in practical affairs. | 如果我理解正确了，就是 一方面，我们拥有知识， 而且需要有关 实际事务中的专门技能。 |
| K: Of course. |
克：是的。
安：而另一方面， 我们也有看到、了解。 |
| A: On the other hand, we have seeing, understanding. And the act of meditation is the nexus... |
而且冥想的行动过程是连结......
克：是的，先生。 安......它们之间的连结，所以 |
| K: That's right, sir. | 不存在对 |
| A: ...between them so that there is no interruption of flow in the activity of understanding and knowing. |
了解活动和认识活动 流畅性的干扰。
克：那就是冥想的一部分。 |
| K: That is part of meditation. |
安：当然。
克：你明白吗？ 安：是的。 |
| A: Of course. | 克：看看发生了什么。 |
| K: You follow? | 那么睡眠是什么？ |
| A: Yes. | 现在我已经理解了 保持清醒意味着什么。 |
| K: See what is taking place. Then what is sleep? I have understood now what is means to be awake. That means I am watching. I am aware. I am aware without any choice, choiceless awareness, watching, looking, observing, hearing what is going on, what is going outside, what people tell me, whether they flatter me, they insult me. I am watching. So, I am very aware. Now, what is sleep? I know what is sleep: resting, shutting your eyes, going to bed at 9, or 10, or later. What is sleep? And in sleep, dreams, what are dreams? I don't know what the others say. I am not interested in what the others say. You follow, sir? Because my enquiry is to find out whether meditation covers the whole field of life, not just one segment. |
那意味着我在观察，
我有觉知。
我毫无选择地觉察到了，
无选择的觉知，观察、
注视、查看、倾听
在发生着什么， 外面正发生着什么，
人们告诉我什么，
不管他们是在奉承我还是侮辱我。
我都一直在观察。
所以，我非常明了。
那么，睡眠是什么？
我知道睡眠是什么：
休息，闭上你的眼睛，上床去，
在九点、十点或更晚。
睡眠是什么？
而且在睡眠中会做梦， 梦是什么？
我不知道其他人说了些什么。
我对其他人说的不感兴趣。
你明白吗，先生？
因为我的探究是 为了查明冥想是否
涵盖了生活的整个领域， 而不只是一部分。
安：我的探究是从我说 “我不知道”这点开始的。 |
| A: My enquiry is from the point where I say, 'I don't know'. | 克：我不知道，对。 所以，我从这里开始。我做梦。 |
| K: I don't know. That is right. So, I'll proceed. I dream. There are dreams. What are dreams? Why should I dream? So, I have to find out why I dream. What are dreams? Dreams are the continuation of my daily sleep. I haven't understood... - see what is taking place - I have not understood my daily life. I watch my daily life. My daily life is in disorder, so I go to sleep and the disorder continues. And the brain says, 'I must have order, otherwise I can't function!' So, if the mind doesn't put order during the day, the brain tries to bring order during the night. |
存在着梦。梦是什么？
为什么我要做梦？
所以，我必须搞清楚为什么 我会做梦。
梦是什么？
梦是我白天沉睡状态的延续。
我没有理解......
——看看发生了什么——
我没有理解我的日常生活。
我观察我的日常生活。
我的日常生活一片混乱，
所以我去睡觉， 然后这混乱继续着。
然后大脑说，
“我一定要有秩序， 否则我就无法工作！
”
所以，如果在白天 头脑没有建立秩序，
它就会在晚上试图建立秩序。
安：通过梦。 |
| A: Through the dream. | 克：通过梦，通过暗示。 |
| K: Through the dreams, through intimations. When I awake I say, 'Yes, I have a certain feeling this must be done'. So, see what takes place. When the mind is awake during the day, it has order, it establishes order, in the sense we have discussed previously. |
当我醒来时我会说，
“是的，我有一种感觉 我一定要做这件事”。
所以，看看发生了什么。
当白天大脑保持清醒， 它就会有秩序，
它建立了秩序，
我们先前所讨论的那种秩序。
安：是的，那种秩序。 |
| A: Yes. In that sense of order. | 克：那种秩序， 产生于对混乱的了解。 |
| K: Order, which comes out of the understanding of disorder. The negation of disorder is order, not the following of a blueprint. Or a pattern, all that's disorder. So, during the day, the mind, the brain has established order. So, when I sleep, the brain isn't working out how to establish order in itself in order to be secure. Therefore the brain becomes rested. | 秩序是对混乱的否定， 而不是追随一个蓝图， 或者一个模式， 所有那些都是混乱。 所以，在白天的时候， 心智、大脑建立了秩序。 所以，当我睡觉时， 大脑不会再努力去想 要如何建立自身的秩序 以此来获得安全了。 因此大脑得到了充分的休息。 |
| A: I see. | 安：我明白了。 |
| K: Therefore the brain becomes quiet, sleeps without dreams. It may have superficial dreams, when you eat wrongly - you know, all that I am not talking about. So, sleep means regeneration of the brain. I don't know if you follow? | 克：因此大脑变得安静， 在睡眠中没有梦。 可能有些浅层的梦， 当你饮食不当时——你知道的， 这些事情我就不谈了。 所以，睡眠意味着大脑的新生。 我不知道你是否理解了？ |
| A: Yes, I do. I wonder if I could ask you a question about dreams here, that might introduce a distinction between dreams in terms of their nature. Sometimes we report that we've had a dream which points to future event. |
安：是的，我理解。
我想知道我是否可以在这里 问你一个关于梦的问题，
那可能会引出
梦的性质之间的区别。
有时我们会说
我们做了一个指向 未来某件事的梦。
克：那是另一回事了。 安：那完全不同于 |
| K: That's another thing. | 你正在讨论的事情。 |
| A: That's entirely different from what you are talking about. | 克：先生，我想我们能 非常简单地理解那一点。 |
| K: Sir, I think we can understand that very simply. You know, the other day, we walked high up in the hills in India, and there was a river flowing down below. And two boats were coming in the opposite direction, and you knew where they were going to meet. When you go high enough, you see the boats coming together at a precise point. |
你知道，那天，
我们在印度
爬到了很高的山上， 山下有一条河流过。
然后有两条船 从相反的方向开过来，
所以你知道它们会在哪里相遇。
当你爬得足够高时，
你会看见两条船会在 一个确切的点相遇。
安：但那是非常客观的。 |
| A: But that's very objective. That has nothing to do with my subjective unfinished business. |
那与我主观上
未完成的事毫无关系。
克：无关。 安：那是另外一件 你先前说到的事了。 |
| K: No. | 克：是的。 |
| A: Which is the other thing you were talking about. | 安：是的，我确实明白了。 |
| K: That's right. | 那将是一件多么令人惊奇的事： |
| A: Yes, I quite see. What an amazing thing it would be to have all your business done and go to sleep, And if order should present you with... |
了结你所有的事情 然后睡去，
如果秩序能
给你带来......
克：是的，先生。 安：......一种了解...... |
| K: Yes, sir. | 克：当然。 |
| A: ...an understanding... | 安：......然后这种了解 |
| K: Of course. | 从清醒到睡着都不会停止。 |
| A: ...then the understanding never stops from waking through sleeping. |
克：没错。 安：是的！当然。 太不可思议了。 |
| K: That's right. | 克：所以，你看， |
| A: Yes! Of course. Marvellous. | 那样大脑就得到了新生， |
| K: So, you see, that way the brain is regenerated, keeps young. No conflict. Conflict wears out the brain. So, sleep means not only order, rejuvenation, innocence, but also, in sleep, there are states, in which there is absolutely freedom to enquire, to see into something which you have never seen with your physical eyes. |
能够保持年轻，没有冲突。
冲突会消耗大脑。
所以，睡眠不仅意味着秩序、
活力的恢复、纯真，
而且，在睡眠中， 存在着一些状态，
在那些状态下 你有绝对的自由去探究，
可以了解你之前从未
用肉眼看到过的事物。
安：是的。 克：当然。 安：是的。 |
| A: Yes. | 克：所以，我们已经对此进行了 充分的描述。我看到了这一点。 |
| K: Of course. | 所以，在白天的时候 |
| A: Yes. | 大脑是那样生活的吗？ |
| K: So, we have described sufficiently into that. I see that. So, does the mind live that kind of life during the day? | 安：那可能很少发生。 |
| A: That would be rare. | 克：否则那就不是冥想。 |
| K: Otherwise it is not meditation. | 安：当然，当然。 |
| A: Of course, of course. | 克：而我也不想玩 虚伪的游戏， |
| K: And I don't want to play a hypocritical game, because I am deceiving nobody. I am deceiving myself and I don't want to deceive myself. I don't see the point of deceiving myself, because I don't want to be a great man, big man, success. That's all too infantile. So, I say, am I living that? If not, what is happening? And it gives me energy to live that way, because I have no burden of the others. I don't know... |
因为我不想欺骗任何人。
我在欺骗我自己， 但我不想欺骗我自己。
我不明白欺骗自己有何意义，
因为我不想成为一个伟人、
大人物、成功人士。
那些都太幼稚了。
所以，我说，我是那样活着的吗？
如果不是，那是怎么回事？
而这给了我能量去那样生活，
因为我没有来自别人的负担。
我不知道......
安：这非常了不起。 |
| A: This is very remarkable. It reminds me of a story that is told about a swordsman and his three sons. And there was an old, old swordsman in old Japan. and he wanted to pass on the responsibility for his art to his sons. And he asked the sons each to come into his room, and he would speak to them, and he would decide. |
这让我想起了一个
关于一个剑客 和他三个儿子的故事。
从前在日本有一个 很老很老的剑客，
他想将
传承剑术的责任交给他的儿子。
然后他分别把每一个儿子 叫进他的房间，
和他们谈话， 然后他会做出决定。
克：是的。 |
| K: Quite, quite. | 安：他是一个非常懂剑术的人， |
| A: He was a man of knowledge in terms of the sword, but he also was a man of understanding. And unbeknownst to them he put a ball on top of the lintel, and as they passed in, they, of course, were quite unaware of that. The youngest was called in first, and when the youngest walked in, his father had arranged for this ball to drop, and the ball dropped, and the son, in a flash, cut it in two with his sword. And his father said, 'Please wait in the other room'. The second son came in, ball fell on his head, but precisely, as it touched his head, he reached up and he took it in his hands, and the father said, 'Please wait in the other room' Eldest son came in. He opened the door, and as he opened the door, he reached up and he took the ball. The father called them in, and he read out the youngest son, saying, 'Very brilliant. You've mastered the technique. You don't understand anything'. He said to the second one, 'Well, you're almost there. Just keep on'. And he said to the eldest, 'Now you can begin'. And - imagine! It's like the word 'prajna', which means 'pra' - ahead, 'jna' - to know, to know beforehand, - not of some prediction that we do, based on the study of rats in the lab - but understanding is... |
同时他也是一个有领悟力的人。
在儿子们不知道的情况下， 他在过梁上放了一个球，
然后当他们进来的时候， 他们，当然
对那毫不知情。
最小的儿子首先被叫进来，
当小儿子走进来时，
他父亲已经安排好球会落下，
而且球也落下了， 小儿子，在一瞬间，
用剑将球劈成了两半。
然后他父亲说， “请到另一个房间里去等候”。
第二个儿子进来了，
球落向他的头，
但正当球碰到他的头时，
他抬手将球接在手中，
然后父亲说，
“请到另一个房间去等候。
”
最大的儿子进来了。
他打开门，而就在他打开门时，
他抬手把球拿了下来。
父亲把他们都叫进来，
然后先向他最小的儿子 宣读结果，他说，
“你非常优秀。
你已经掌握了技巧，
但你什么也不懂。
”
他对二儿子说，
“你瞧，你差点儿就做到了， 继续努力吧。
”
然后他对大儿子说， “现在你可以开始了。
”
然后——想象一下！
那就像“般若”这个词一样， 那意味着
“般”——提前，“若”——知道， 预先知道，
——但不是我们做的某种预测，
基于对实验室老鼠的研究的 那种预测——
而了解是......
克：是的，先生。 安：......在那一个行动的 整个活动的 |
| K: Yes, sir. | 之前和之后。 |
| A: ...ahead and behind in the total movement of that one act. Oh yes, of course! |
哦，是的，当然！
克：所以，我看到了这一点， |
| K: So, I see this, because I do not separate meditation from daily living. Otherwise it has no meaning. So I see the importance of order during the waking hours. And therefore freeing the brain from conflict - all that - during sleep, so there is total rest to the brain. That's one thing. Then, what is control? Why should I control? They have all said control. All religions have said control. Control. Be without desire. Don't think about yourself. You follow? All that. This is what they say. I say to myself, can I live without control? You follow, sir? |
因为我不会把冥想 与日常生活分离开来。
否则冥想是毫无意义的。
所以我看到了在清醒时 保持秩序的重要性。
也因此
让大脑在睡眠时从冲突中
——从所有那些中—— 解脱了出来，
如此大脑就能彻底得到休息了。
这是一件事。
然后，什么是控制？
为什么我要去控制？
他们都说要控制。
所有宗教都说要控制。
控制。
不要有欲望。
不要考虑你自己。
你明白吗？
所有那些。
这就是他们所说的。
我对自己说，
我能毫无控制地生活吗？
你明白吗，先生？
安：哦，是的，是的。 一个人必须一开始 就提出这样的疑问。 |
| A: Oh yes, yes. One has to start that question too at the very beginning. |
克：那就是我们现在所做的事！
安：是的，我的说法是一种反映， |
| K: That's what we are doing! | 就像是反映那一点的一面镜子，是的。 克：是的。 |
| A: Yes. My statement is a reflection. Just a mirror to that, yes. | 有可能毫无控制地生活吗？ |
| K: Yes. Is it possible to live without control? Because what is control? And who is the controller? The controller is the controlled. When I say, 'I must control my thought', the controller is the creation of thought. And thought controls thought. It has no meaning. One fragment controls another fragment and therefore remain fragments. So I say, is there a way of living without control? Therefore no conflict. Therefore no opposites. Not one desire against another desire. One thought opposed to another thought. One achievement opposed to another achievement. So, no control. Is that possible? Because I must find out. You follow? It's not just ask a question, just leaving it alone. I've got energy now, because I am not carrying their burden anymore. Nor am I carrying my own burden. Because their burden is my burden. When I have discarded that I have discarded this. So I have got energy and I say, is it possible to live without control. And so it is a tremendous thing. I must find out. Because the people who have control, have said, through control you arrive at Nirvana, heaven. To me that's wrong, totally absurd. So I say, can I live a life of meditation, in which there is no control? |
因为什么是控制？
而谁又是控制者呢？
控制者就是被控制者。
当我说， “我必须控制我的思想”，
控制者就是思想的产物。
思想控制着思想， 那毫无意义。
一个碎片控制着另一个碎片，
因此仍然是一堆碎片。
所以我说，是否存在 一种毫无控制的生活？
因而没有冲突，
没有对立，
没有欲望之间的斗争，
没有想法之间的对立，
没有成就之间的对立。
所以，没有控制，那可能吗？
因为我一定要弄清楚。
你明白吗？那不只是
一个提问，不能 就那样把它丢在一边。
现在我有了能量，
因为我不用背负着 他们的负担了。
我也不再背负着我自己的负担。
因为他们的负担 就是我的负担。
当我丢弃了那些的时候， 我也丢弃了这些。
所以我有了能量，
然后我说，有没有可能 毫无控制地生活。
所以这是一件了不起的事，
我一定要弄清楚。
因为那些进行控制的人
说过，通过控制
你就可以到达涅槃、天堂。
对我来说那是错误的， 是荒谬至极的。
所以我说，我是否能过 一种冥想的生活，
在那种生活里不存在控制？
安：当智慧爆发， |
| A: When intelligence breaks out, as we looked at before, then with it comes order and that order... |
正如我们之前所探讨的，
那么秩序会随之而来， 并且那秩序......
克：智慧就是秩序。 |
| K: Intelligence is order. | 安：智慧就是那秩序。 看到即行动。 |
| A: And intelligence is that order. The seeing is the doing. |
克：行动，是的。
安：因此，不存在任何冲突。 |
| K: The doing, yes. | 克：因此我是否过着一种生活 |
| A: Therefore there is no conflict at all. | ——不仅问：那是否可能，而且—— 我是过着这样的生活吗？ |
| K: Therefore do I live a life - not only: is it possible - do I live it? I've got desires: I see a car, a woman, a house, a lovely garden, beautiful clothes - whatever it is - and instantly all the desires arise. And not to have a conflict. And yet not yield. If I have money, I go and buy it. Which is obvious, but that's no answer. If I have no money, I say, 'I'm so sorry I have no money, and I will get some, someday, then I'll come back and buy it'. It's the same problem. But the desire is aroused. The seeing, contact, sensation, and desire. Now that desire is there, and to cut it off is to suppress it. To control it is to suppress it. To yield to it is another form of fragmenting life into getting and losing. So, to allow for the flowering of desire without control. You understand, sir? | 我有欲望： 我看到一辆车，一个女人， 一间房子，一座美丽的花园， 漂亮衣服——不管是什么—— 所有的欲望都立刻出现了。 但不会出现冲突， 也不会屈服。 如果我有钱， 我就会去买下它。 那很明显， 但那不是答案。 如果我没钱，我会说， “很遗憾我没钱， 但总有一天，我会赚到一些钱， 然后我会回来买下它。 ” 这是同一个问题， 但欲望被激发出来了。 看到、接触、感受， 然后是欲望。 既然欲望已经出现了， 那么切断它就是压抑它， 控制它也是压抑它。 而向它屈服是另一种 使生活分裂成 得与失的方式。 所以，要允许欲望 毫无控制地绽放。 你明白吗，先生？ 安，是的， 我明白。 |
| A: Yes, I do. | 克：所以，欲望的绽放本身 就是那个欲望的结束。 |
| K: So, the very flowering is the ending of that desire. But if you chop it off, it'll come back again. |
但如果你把它斩断， 它还会再次出现。
安：那就是终点 与圆满之间的区别。 |
| A: It's the difference between a terminus and a consummation. | 克：的确是这样。所以，我允许 欲望出现、绽放，我看着它。 |
| K: Quite, yes. So, I let the desire come, flower, watch it. Watch it, not yield or resist. Just let it flower. And be fully aware of what is happening. Then there is no control. |
看着它，不屈服也不抗拒。
只是让它绽放。
同时完全觉知正在发生着什么。
然后就不存在控制了。
安：也不存在混乱。 |
| A: And no disorder. | 克：是的，当然。 一旦你去控制， 就会出现混乱。 |
| K: No, of course. The moment you control, there is disorder. You are suppressing or accepting, So that is disorder. But when you allow the thing to flower and watch it, watch it in the sense be totally aware of it, the petals, the subtle forms of desire to possess, not to possess, to possess is a pleasure, not to possess is a pleasure, the whole of that movement of desire. |
你在压抑或接受， 那就是混乱。
但当你允许并观察 这件事的发生，
在你完全觉知的情况下 注视着它，
那种想要占有或不去占有的愿望
所具有的各个花瓣、 各种微妙的形式，
占有是一种快乐， 不占有也是一种快乐，
这整个欲望的活动。
安：确实如此。 克：而你必须有一种非常敏锐的 |
| A: Exactly. | 警觉性，非常敏锐， 毫无选择地观察。 |
| K: And you have to have a very sensitive, watchfulness, very sensitive, choiceless watching. | 安：你在这里用植物本身 |
| A: This image that you have referred to metaphorically with the plant itself, could we pursue that in our next conversation through the continuation of concern to look further into meditation? |
作了一个形象的比喻，
我们下一次谈话 能否继续探讨这个话题，
通过继续关注
对冥想的进一步探究？
克：我们还没... 结束冥想的话题。 |
| K: We haven't finished meditation. | 安：我们还没有，是的。 |
| A: We haven't, no. | 克：这里牵涉到了很多内容。 |
| K: There's lots more involved. | 安：好的，好的。 |
| A: Good, good. | 克：这里牵涉到了很多内容。 安：好的，好的。 |
