克里希那穆提 - 「自由」是一件关乎时间的事情吗？

Krishnamurti Subtitles

MA7879T3 - 「自由」是一件关乎时间的事情吗？第三次公开演讲印度马德拉斯（金奈） 1979年1月6日
1:17 I hope you don't find it hot. I do. Please don't take photographs.	1:17 我希望你们不会觉得这里很热。我觉得很热。请不要拍照。
1:36 May we go on with what we were talking about the last two times that we met here? We were saying - weren't we? - that we must think together, not what to think, but how to think. And we are, as we said previously, that we are taking a journey together, sharing the problems, the various incidents and happenings in our daily life. And we are not concerned with theories, probabilities, suppositions, but with what is actually going on. The word 'actual' means that which is happening, happening now, not only externally, outside of us, but also inwardly. 3:09 And we said, one can have correct examination inwardly, only when we understand what is happening outwardly, because one can deceive oneself enormously, examining ourselves, our attitudes, our prejudices. But if we approach it from the outward world, then perhaps we shall have clear observation of ourselves. We said also, that the society in which we live is created by us, by every human being, not by some divine edict. The society in which we live is the expression of our greed, our ambition, our sense for power, violence, and so on.	1:36 我们是不是可以接着之前在这里的举行的两场演讲的内容继续讲下去？之前我们说过我们必须要一起思考，不是吗？不是“去思考什么”，而是“如何去思考”。而我们正在…… 正如我们之前所说的，我们正在一起踏上一段旅程，彼此分享我们的问题，以及我们日常生活中的各种事件和意外。而我们所关心的并不是各种理论、可能性和假设，我们所关心的是实际在发生的事情。 “实际”这个词的意思就是：正在发生的事情，此刻正在发生的事，不只是外面的世界、我们外在所发生的事情，也包括我们内在所发生的事情。 3:09 而我们也说过：如果我们要正确地检视内在的事情，这只有当我们理解了外在所发生的事情以后才可以，因为我们也可以大大地欺骗自己 ——在检视我们自己，检视我们的态度和偏见的时候。但如果我们是从外在的世界入手去处理它的话，那么我们也许就能清楚明白地观察我们自己了。我们同样也说了：那就是我们所生活于其中的这个社会，它是我们自己、是每一个人所创造出来的，它不是某个“神圣法令”所创造的。我们所生活于其中的这个社会，它就是我们的贪婪、野心、权力感、暴力等等的表达。
4:28 So, this afternoon, if I may, I would like - sharing together, of course - to talk about time, to investigate the nature of culture and tradition. And also we pointed out the other day, if you don't mind my repeating it again, that this is a serious meeting, gathering. I mean by that word 'serious' - weighty, heavy, not casual, not something that you come of an evening, a pleasant evening, sit under trees and listen to a talk, but rather that we are sharing together our investigation. 5:48 Our concern, as we pointed out the other day, is that our society is so corrupt, so dangerously violent, and all the rest of it. Unless every human being, each one of us radically, psychologically brings about a revolution in himself, then there is no possibility of bringing about a change in the world. That's what we talked about. Perhaps you may remember it.	4:28 所以今天下午，如果可以的话，我想要…… ——当然了，是我们一起分享它—— 我想要谈论一下「时间」，去探讨文明的本质，以及「传统」。同样的，前几天我们也指出了：如果你们不介意我再重复一下它的话：这是一次严肃的集会、聚会。我所说的“严肃”这个词，它的意思是：重大的、认真的、不是随随便便的，它并不是你在某个晚上、某个令人愉快的夜晚过来，坐在树下然后听一场演讲，而是我们正在一起分享我们的「探究」。 5:48 就如我们前几天所指出的：我们所关心的是我们的社会是如此的腐败，如此的危险暴力，等等这些。而除非每一个人，我们每个人从根本上、从心理上有一次内在的革命，否则我们是不可能改变这个世界的。这就是我们所讲的东西。或许你们都还记得。
6:40 With what we are talking about you may not agree, or you may agree: agreement or disagreement is irrelevant. We are not dealing with opinions, ideas, or speculative philosophy. We are dealing with what is actually going on in our daily life, because as we pointed out again, we must begin near to go very far. But most of us start with theories, abstractions that are very far and therefore valueless, irrelevant. So I hope, that we are clear on this point, that we are not concerned with philosophy, philosophy being, as it is understood now: a series of suppositions, theories, concepts, conclusions. The word actually means the love of life, the love of truth.	6:40 对于这些我们所谈论的东西，你可能不同意，也可能同意：但同意或不同意是无关紧要的。因为我们并不是在处理观点、理念，或者哲学思辨。我们正在处理的是我们日常生活中实际在发生的事情，因为就如我们同样指出的那样：千里之行始于足下。但我们大多数人都是从理论、从抽象概念开始的，而这些东西离我们“很遥远”，因此它们并没有什么价值，是无关紧要的。所以我希望我们能清楚这一点：那就是我们所关心的并不是哲学，如今人们所理解的哲学：它是一系列的假设、理论、概念、结论。然而「哲学」这个词的实际意思是：对生活的爱，对真理的爱。
8:23 So, first, why have human beings throughout the world, being caught up in tradition, whether it is the tradition of a day, or a week, or three thousand years. Why? The very word 'tradition' means, doesn't it, something handed down from generation to generation. And also the word etymologically means betrayal, treason. And this tradition, which is to hand over, from generation to generation, certain values, certain beliefs, ideals, rituals, concepts, conclusions. This has been going on, handed down for century upon century. 9:58 And like a steam-roller flattening the human being with these values, conclusions, and so on. And when those values, conclusions, concepts, principles, and so on, have been thrown aside, as it is happening now, we are back to where we started. We are violent, greedy, anxious, insecure, uncertain, confused human beings. That's what is going on, actually. Right? Since tradition held human beings along a certain groove, and when those traditions are thrown overboard, as they are being done now, we are where we started. 11:10 Perhaps we have more comfort, more bathrooms, and more way of driving cars, and transportation, and communications, and so on. But as human beings we suffer, we are envious, we are violent, there is a great deal of fear, utterly insecure. The world is becoming more and more dangerous. This is all a fact. And this tradition implies, does it not, a process of evolution, from the wheel to the jet plane, there has been evolution, taken many, many, many centuries from the wheel to come to the jet. And in this tradition, there is so-called culture. 13:00 Culture, the word implies, to cultivate, to grow, to blossom, to flower - the human mind as well as the human heart. And as human beings living in a certain tradition, have we flowered morally, perhaps intellectually we have, more or less, that is, we spin a lot of words, theories, principles, ideals, and try to live up to them, which are all an intellectual process. Culture, as we pointed out, implies the freedom of man, not to be steam-rolled by centuries of tradition, and in that there can be no culture. That is obvious. 14:23 When a mind is following tradition, rituals, all the rest of it, in that there can be no possibility of human mind, and human heart growing, developing, you know all the rest of it. Technologically, we have advanced tremendously. That is based on the accumulation of knowledge. But morally, so-called spiritually, we are almost savages, with a lot of superstition, ideals, principles which have no meaning whatsoever. Right? That is the state our daily life is.	8:23 所以，首先我们要问：为什么全世界所有的人会陷入于传统中 ——不管它是一天的传统，一周的传统，还是延续了三千年的传统。为什么？ “传统”这个词，它的意思是：某种一代又一代传下来的东西。难道不是吗？而从词源学上来讲，这个词的意思是背叛、谋反。而这种传统，它一代又一代地传下去，它是某些价值观、某些信仰、理想、仪式、概念、结论。无数世纪以来，它们一直在被传递着。 9:58 它就像蒸汽压路机一样，用那些价值观、结论等等东西抹平了人类的个体性。而当那些价值观、结论、概念、道德/行为准则，等等东西被扔到一边以后 ——就像我们正在做的一样，那么我们就回到了我们的起点。那就是：我们是暴力的、贪婪的、焦虑的、缺乏安全感的、不确定的、混乱困惑的人类。这就是实际上正在发生的事情。对吧？由于传统让人类陷入于某种惯例中了，因此当这些传统被抛到九霄云外之后 ——我们现在就在这么做，我们便回到了原点。 11:10 或许我们有了更多的舒适生活，更多的浴室，更多的道路可以驾驶汽车，更多的交通运输方式、通讯交流方式，等等。然而作为人类本身，我们依然在受苦，我们依然在嫉妒，我们依然暴力，我们有着无数的恐惧，完全没有安全感。这个世界正在变得越来越危险。这些全都是事实。而这种「传统」，它意味着一种「进化」的过程，难道不是吗？从车轮进化到喷气式飞机，这是一种「进化」，我们需要花费很多很多世纪，才能从车轮进化到喷气式飞机。而在这种「传统」中，有着所谓的“文明”。 13:00 “文明”这个词意味着去培养、去成长、去开花、去绽放 ——这里的对象既包括人类的头脑，也包括人类的心灵。然而作为生活在某种传统中的人类，我们是否在道德上“开花绽放”了？或许我们在思想智力上多多少少“开花绽放”了，换句话说，我们编织出了很多话语、理论、行为/道德准则、理想，然后试图去符合做到它们，而这一切全都是思想智力的过程。就如我们所指出的：「文明」意味着人类的自由，人类不应该被“抹平” ——被无数世纪以来的传统所“压平”，在这之中是不可能会有「文明」的。这是显而易见的。 14:23 当头脑遵循传统、仪式、等等这些东西，在这之中，人类的头脑和人类的心灵是不可能成长与发展的，你们都知道所有这些事情。在科学技术上，我们获得了惊人的进步。这是建立在知识的积累之上的。然而在道德上、在所谓的“灵性”上，我们几乎还是野蛮人的水平，我们依然有着无数的迷信、理想、行为/道德准则，它们全都没有任何的意义。对吧？这就是我们日常生活的状态。
15:26 Technologically we are excellent, at least we try to be. And we have never challenged ourselves whether it is possible to live ethically at its highest. And when one sees what is happening in the world and in ourselves, that is our greatest challenge, that we, each individual, each human being, cultivate in freedom.	15:26 科技方面，我们已经很出色了，至少我们正在努力变得出色。而我们从未向自己提出过这种挑战：即是否可能去过一种至高伦理道德的生活。而当我们看到这个世界上以及我们内在所发生的事情时，（我们发现）这就是我们最大的挑战了 ——那就是：我们，每一个个体，每一个人，要在「自由」中被培养而成长。
16:31 Is freedom a matter of time? Time being division in movement. Time is movement. Obviously. And in that movement there is division, as yesterday, today and tomorrow. The yesterday meeting the present, modifying itself and proceeding to the future. This is the movement of time, in which there is division. To get from here to there, it takes time. From the wheel to the jet has taken centuries. Time. So, there are two different kinds of time: the biological time and psychological time. The time that a child through adolescence grows up to be a man, and so on, that takes time, years, like a seed, planted, takes time to become a tree. 18:24 And we are questioning whether there is psychological time at all. That is, psychological evolution, that is, to become, or to be. I hope we are communicating with each other. I think this is rather important that we understand this question that time - it is really quite extraordinary if you come to think of it - we have depended on time, we thought our whole human progress is a development in time. We have achieved technologically great varieties of excellence, and to achieve that one has to have an enormous amount of time. All accumulation of knowledge is time. And we are asking whether there is psychological time at all, that is, psychological evolution. 20:06 That is, 'I will be something, I will achieve goodness.' That is, the very word 'achieve' implies time: 'I am not this but I will be that,' both in the business world as well as in the so-called world of the spirit, mind. Is it that we have seen a seed grow into a tree and have accepted that as a process of growth in time and therefore move with that concept, with that understanding into the psychological field? You are following all this?	16:31 「自由」是一件关乎「时间」的事情吗？「时间」就是运动中的“分裂”，「时间」就是运动。这是很显然的。而在那种运动中，存在着分裂 ——昨天、今天和明天的割裂。 “昨天”遇到了当下，它修改了自身，然后继续前进到「未来」中。这就是时间的运动，在其中就存在着「分裂」。从这里出发到那里，它需要花费时间。而从车轮进化到喷气式飞机则需要无数个世纪。这也是「时间」。所以存在着两种不同的时间：生物学意义上的时间和心理上的时间。生物学意义上的时间就是：一个孩子经过了青春期，然后长大成人，等等，这需要花费很多年的时间，就像一粒种子被种下，它需要花费时间成长为一棵大树。 18:24 但我们正在质疑的是：究竟有没有“心理上的时间”。也就是那种“心理层面的进化”，换句话说就是去变成某某模样，或者去成为某某人。我希望我们正在彼此交流着。我认为了解这个问题是相当重要的：那就是，时间 ——如果你开始去思考它的话，你会发现它（时间）真的是一个无比非凡的事物—— 我们依赖于「时间」，我们认为我们整个人类的进步，是一种「时间」中的发展成长。我们在科学技术上达到了各种巨大卓越的成就，而要达到这种成就，我们必须要花费无数的时间。一切「知识的积累」就是「时间」。而我们在问：究竟有没有“心理上的时间”，也就是，有没有“心理上的进化” 20:06 ——即“我将会成为某某人，我将会变成良善之人。 ” 换句话说，“达到”这个词本身就暗示了「时间」： “我还不是那样的人，但我将会成为那样的人”，不管是在商业世界中，还是在所谓的“灵性世界”中、“心灵世界”中。这是不是因为我们曾经看到了一颗种子成长为了一棵大树，于是便接受认可了这种 “在时间中成长的过程”，然后我们便带着这种观念、这种理解，进入到了心理领域中？你们跟上这一切了吗？
21:13 Psychologically we think we are growing, we are developing, we will become something, and we are questioning that very concept, very idea, very feeling that we will be. Right? All organisations are based on this, both worldly as well as so-called religious: give me time, I will achieve enlightenment through practice, through systems, through mechanical processes - which you achieve in the world, in the mechanical world - you apply the same attitude, the same approach, or come with the same approach to the psyche. Right?	21:13 我们认为自己在心理上获得了“成长”，我们在发展进步，我们将会变成某种模样，然而我们正在质疑这个观念本身，质疑这种想法、这种感觉 ——即“我们将成为什么什么”。对吧？所有的组织团体都是建立在这种观念上的，既包括世俗世界的组织也包括所谓的“宗教组织”：给我时间，我将会达到「开悟」，通过练习、通过某种体系、通过机械化的过程 ——你们已经在这个世界上实现了它，在机械世界中实现了这一点—— 然后你将同样的态度、同样的处理方式用在了心理领域。或者带着同样的处理手段进入了心理领域中。对吧？
22:29 There is no psychological evolution at all. Right? Please, don't accept what is being said, or deny, but listen first. You may have your own opinions, your own conclusions, your own beliefs, your own way of approaching the problem of time, but since you have taken the trouble to come here, obviously you have to listen to what the other fellow has to say. Listen, not casually listen, or listening interject your own opinions, your own comparative values, and so on. Just listen. And then after having listened, you can begin to examine. 23:35 But you cannot examine before you have listened. That implies giving attention, not partial attention, attending one minute or a few minutes, and then thinking about something else. Right? Which implies, attention needs freedom. Because if you are investigating there must be freedom to observe. Right? We are actually doing this, I hope, not accepting what is being said and turning it into a theory, or an idea, but you are actually listening to find out for yourself whether evolution, gradual growth, psychologically exists or not, and if it is not, then how do we deal with a problem - you understand? - 25:02 with a reaction, with, say, for example, with fear? You are following all this? We must be very clear in this matter. Time is fear. Time is pleasure. Time is sorrow. And is love involved in time? You are following all this? We are denying the total acceptance up to now of psychological evolution altogether.	22:29 但根本不存在什么“心理上的进化”。对吗？请注意，不要接受我所说的话，或者否定我的话，而是先去聆听它。你或许会有你自己的观点、结论、信仰，你自己的处理「时间」问题的方式，但既然你已经不辞辛劳地来到了这里，很显然你应当聆听一下另一个家伙要说的东西。是聆听，而不是随随便便地听一下，或者在聆听的时候突然插入你自己的观点意见、或者你自己相比之下的价值观，等等。只是去听。而在聆听了之后，你便可以开始去检视了。 23:35 然而在你还没有聆听之前，你是无法去检视的。这意味着要付出你的「注意」，不是部分的「注意」，注意个一分钟或几分钟，然后就去想别的东西了。对吧？它所暗示的就是：这种「注意」需要自由。因为如果你正在研究某个事物，你就必须要自由地去观察。是吧？而我们实际上正在这么做 ——我希望如此，不是去接受对方所说的东西，然后将其转变为某种理论或观点，而是你切实地在聆听，亲自去发现这种心理上的进化，这种心理上的“逐渐成长”，它究竟是否存在，而如果它并不存在，那么我们该怎么去处理一个问题 ——你们明白了吗？—— 25:02 怎么去处理一种「反应」，比方说，怎么去处理「恐惧」？你们都跟上所有这些了吗？在这个问题上，我们必须非常清晰明了。「时间」就是恐惧。「时间」就是快感。「时间」就是「苦」。而「爱」包含在「时间」里吗？你们理解这一切了吗？我们彻底否定了人们一直以来对于“心理上进化”这种观念的完全接受。
26:27 So we are going to examine that. There is no need to examine the wheel and the jet. That's fairly clear, that's obvious. Whole science is based on the accumulation of knowledge. And not being burdened with that knowledge, you examine more and acquire more knowledge, and you are all the time adding more, and more, and more knowledge - knowledge being the past. Now, we are asking: is time necessary, time being movement in division? Right? Please understand this carefully. Time is movement with divisions: yesterday, today, tomorrow, or time immemorial, time which has no beginning, and time that may end. 27:58 Eternity is out of time, that which has a continuity is not eternal, it is still part of time. You are following all this? If one observes oneself, because we as a human being, as a human being we are the representative of all mankind, because we suffer, we go through all kinds of tortures like every other human being - we are poor, we are rich, we are greedy, we are suffering, we are lonely, we have no love, all that is the rest of mankind. So, you as a human being are the rest of mankind which is not an intellectual concept. 29:06 You can turn it into an intellectual concept, but it has no value then, like any other theory. But if one sees the truth of it, the actual reality of it, with your heart, with your mind, then a human being becomes an extraordinary, serious committed human being, not an individual, because we're not individuals. Individual means indivisible, not broken up, not fragmented. And most human beings are fragmented. Right? So we are not individuals at all. We may think, because we have a name, we have a bank account, or a car, or a wife, or a house - we call ourselves individuals. 30:23 I think that is wrong usage of the word. We are human beings like every other human being living in the world, with enormous problems, our relationships are very complex, our sorrows are limitless, and so on.	26:27 所以我们将要来检视它。我们并不需要去检视车轮和喷气式飞机。因为它们是相当清楚的事情，是显而易见的东西。整个科学都是建立在「知识的积累」之上的。而在抛开了那种知识的重负后，你便能够检视到更多的东西，从而获得更多的知识，而你们一直都在不断地增加越来越多的知识 ——知识就是「过去」。而现在，我们问：「时间」是必要的吗？这里的「时间」就是「分裂性的运动」。对吧？请小心仔细地理解这一点。时间是带有「分裂」的运动：昨天、今天、明天，还是说，「时间」是无法追忆的，「时间」是没有起始的，以及「时间」，它是可能结束的。 27:58 那个超脱于时间的「永恒」，那个会延续的事物并不是永恒的，它仍旧是「时间」的一部分。你们都理解这一切了吗？如果我们观察一下自己，因为我们作为人类，作为一个人，我们就代表了全人类，因为我们在受苦，我们经历了各种各样的折磨 ——而其他每一个人也和我们一样—— 我们贫穷、抑或富有、我们贪婪、我们痛苦、我们孤独、我们没有爱，而所有其他人也是如此。所以，作为人类的一员，你就是这个世界上其余的人 ——这并不是一个思想智力上的概念。 29:06 你可以把它转变为一个思想智力上的概念，但那时它就没有什么价值了 ——就如同任何其他理论一样。然而如果我们看到了它的事实真相，它的真实性、实际性，用你的心灵、用你的头脑看到了它，那么一个人就会变成无比认真严肃的、尽心尽力、敢于担当的人，不是变成「个体」，因为我们并非「个体」。「个体」的意思是不可分割的、不是分裂的、不是支离破碎的。然而绝大多数人都是支离破碎的。对吧？所以我们根本就不是什么「个体」。我们或许认为自己是个体，因为我们有着名字，有一个银行账户，有一辆汽车、一个妻子、或者一幢房子 ——于是我们称自己为「个体」。 30:23 但我认为这个词用错了。我们就是人类，我们就像其他任何生活在这个世界上的人一样，面对着很多巨大的问题，我们的人际关系都是非常复杂的，我们的苦难都是永无止境的，等等。
30:55 So, when we realise that we are the world and the world is us - realise it, not intellectually play with words - one has a tremendous responsibility. And that's why perhaps we avoid that responsibility by calling ourselves individuals. And being a representative of all mankind - each human being is - and when that human being psychologically transforms himself, it affects the whole consciousness of mankind. Please listen to all this. Don't accept it; look at it. Examine it. And the speaker is only concerned with that, not with theories, and so on. 32:09 That is, is it possible for human beings, not through evolutionary process, not through time, but fundamentally, radically, basically change, totally? Because that is our challenge, because traditions have gone, religions have no meaning any more; institutions have their limited place but cannot possibly transform man; no government can possibly change man - they may improve the outward circumstances, but deeply they cannot as it has been shown in Russia, and all the rest of it. We don't have to go through all that.	30:55 所以，当我们意识到「我们就是世界」，「这个世界就是我们」时 ——去了悟到它，而不是在思想智力上玩文字游戏—— 那么我们就会有一种巨大的责任感。而我们或许就是为了回避这种责任，所以才把自己称为“个体”的。而由于我们就代表了全人类 ——每个人都是如此—— 所以当一个人从心理上转变了他自己以后，它就会影响到全人类的「整体意识」。请认真聆听这一切。而不是接受这种说法。去观察它，去检视它。而演讲者唯一关心的就是这个，而不是去关心那些理论，等等这些东西。 32:09 换句话说，人类是否可能不要经历“进化”的过程，不是通过时间，就能根本地、彻底地、从本质上完全地改变？因为这就是我们所面临的「挑战」，因为传统已经消逝了，宗教也不再具有任何意义；习俗制度也只能发挥有限的作用，却不可能转变人类；而政府也无法改变人类 ——他们或许可以改善一下外部的环境状况，但他们却无法深刻地改变人们 ——俄罗斯等等地方的事情已经显示了这一点，这些东西不需要我们展开讲了。
33:03 So, understanding all that, we are asking: is there a possibility of transformation of man in which time as movement with its division has no place? You have understood my question? You understand my question? Because our whole ethical, moral and so-called spiritual world is based on time. In the business world, in the political world unfortunately the hierarchical system exists - the pecking order. And in the so-called world of the mind and heart we have also this pecking order. This is so obvious. And, is it possible for a human being, psychologically, to change fundamentally, without having time at all? 34:37 You understand, sir? This is a very important question to ask, you may not find the answer, but one must ask it. Right? Because we have lived for a million years, probably more or less the same, psychologically. There has been tremendous technological revolution and progress. So, let us find out if it is possible for a human being to be free totally of this idea of evolution, psychological evolution which involves time. Right?	33:03 所以，在理解了所有这一切后，我们要问：人类的「转变」中是否可能没有那种作为分裂运动的「时间」？你们理解我的问题吗？你们明白我的问题了吗？因为我们整个的伦理、道德世界和所谓的“灵性世界”，它们都是基于「时间」的。在商业世界，也包括在政治世界里 ——这很不幸—— 都存在着等级制度 ——尊卑秩序和权势等级。而在所谓的“心灵世界”中，我们也有尊卑秩序和权势等级。这也是显而易见的。所以，一个人是否可能从心理上根本彻底地改变自己，但却完全不需要时间呢？ 34:37 你们理解了吗，先生？这是我们应该问的一个非常重要的问题，你或许找不到答案，但我们必须要问一下它。对吧？因为我们人类已经生活了有一百万年了，然而在心理上，我们可能或多或少还是和从前一样。虽然我们已经有了惊人的技术革命与进步。所以，我们应该来发现一下：对于人类来说，他是否可能完全地摆脱掉“进化”的想法 ——这种“心理上进化”的概念，因为其中包含了「时间」。对吧？
35:33 Will you examine it, can we examine it together? That is, your tradition says: take time. Right? Your whole scriptures, religions, everything is based on time. Our brains work in time. We are conditioned by time, and we are asking a question which puts aside time, which denies totally evolution. Right? So we are going to investigate whether a human being can really bring about this radical change in which time is not involved at all. Right? Are we meeting each other? Right? That is, are we sharing the thing together, are we deeply interested in this question? 36:56 Or you are just waiting for me to examine it, explore it, investigate it, and you say, 'Yes, that's possible, or not possible, I have different opinions and conclusions,' and go away. Which implies that you are really not sharing in the problem at all. Because we have lived for over a million years and more, and we are practically the same as we were, psychologically, inwardly. Right? And to reverse the whole process - so is that possible?	35:33 你们可以去检视它吗，我们能够一起去检视它吗？换言之，你们的传统说：这需要时间。对吧？你们所有的圣典、宗教，每一样东西都是基于时间的。我们的大脑也是在「时间」中工作的。我们被「时间」所制约，而我们正在问一个问题：那就是要抛开时间，它完全否定了「进化」。是吧？所以我们将要来探究一下：一个人是否能够真正带来这种根本性的改变 ——这种改变中完全不涉及「时间」。对吧？我们是否彼此理解了？是吧？也就是说，我们是否正在一起分享这件事情？我们是否对这个问题深感兴趣？ 36:56 还是说，你们只是在等待着我去检视它、探索它、研究它。然后你说，“是的，这是可能的或者那不可能，我有不同的看法和结论”，然后就离开了。这意味着你其实根本没有在共享这个问题。因为我们人类已经生存了超过一百万年或者更多时间了，然而我们实际上和从前没什么两样 ——从心理上来说，从内在的角度而言。是吧？而现在我们要逆转这整个过程 ——所以，这可能吗？
38:05 How do you examine, in what manner, or what capacity of the mind that is capable of investigating something which appears totally impossible, a mind which is so heavily conditioned by time, to which a new kind of proposition is put? Is it capable, first of all, of receiving the problem, receiving the question, or it has been so heavily conditioned it is incapable of even hearing it? So, what is actually going on with each one? Do you hear the question and make it into an abstraction, which means avoidance, or being so heavily traditionally conditioned, you say, 'Sorry, I am not going to even listen. 39:19 It does not mean a thing to me.' Or you have the quality of mind that says, 'Let us go into it - not theoretically but actually.' Which is, whether fear, which is one of the reactions from timeless, immemorial time, whether that fear can totally end without involving time at all? Is that clear? Right? Perhaps, fear is a little more complex, we will take it up a little later. Whether a human being from childhood, who has been hurt psychologically, both physically as well as psychologically - listen to it carefully - whether that hurt, the inward hurt, which expresses itself outwardly by withdrawing, by resisting, by wanting to be more violent to another because you are hurt yourself, whether that hurt, which has been gathered, which has been kept cherished, almost loved, whether that hurt can be totally abandoned instantly - you understand my question? - without time. 41:21 Right? You see the fun of it? It is not fun, it is really very, very serious if you go into it, but the very question is so challenging and therefore demands your attention, demands your care, demands your response totally to it.	38:05 你要如何去检视它，以什么样的方式去检视，或者说，头脑要具备什么样的能力，才能够去探究某种看起来完全不可能的事物？头脑深受「时间」的制约，而现在我们给了它一个全新的建议。所以首先，头脑是否能够接收这个难题，接收这个问题，还是说，它已经如此地深受制约，以至于它甚至都没有能力去聆听它了？所以，我们每一个人身上实际发生的是什么呢？你们是不是在听到了问题以后，会把它变成一个抽象概念？这意味着你在「回避」，或者由于你深受传统的制约束缚，于是你会说，“对不起，我甚至都不会去听这个。 39:19 它对我来说毫无意义。” 还是说，你拥有这样一种头脑品质，它在说，“让我们去探究它 ——不是从理论上探究它，而是切实地去探究它。 ” 那就是：是否「恐惧」 ——恐惧就是一种「反应」—— 它从无限永恒的古老时代就开始了，这种「恐惧」，它是否能够彻底结束 ——并且其中完全不涉及到「时间」？这点清楚了吗？对吧？或许「恐惧」这个东西要稍微复杂一点，我们稍微过会儿再来处理它。一个人从小开始，他受到过很多心理上的伤害，既包括身体上的伤害，也包括心理上的伤害 ——请认真听好—— 那种伤害，那种内心的创伤，这种创伤会以外在的形式表现出来 ——比如退缩、抵抗，想要对别人施加更多暴力，因为你自己曾受过伤害，那么这种一直以来被积聚起来的伤害 ——我们一直将其珍藏在内心，几乎快要爱上它了—— 这种「伤害」是否可以立刻完全地被抛弃掉？你们理解我的问题吗 ——其中没有「时间」。 41:21 懂了吗？你们看到它的有趣之处了吗？它并不是有趣的事，如果你深入探究它的话，它是非常非常严肃的事，但这个问题本身是极具挑战性的，因此它需要你的「注意」，需要你的关注，需要你对它做出充分完全的反应。
41:52 We are hurt from childhood, inwardly, psychologically, inside the skin as it were. And the consequences of that hurt are resistance, building a wall around oneself, a withdrawal not to be hurt more, having always fear of getting hurt more and more. The consequences of that are violence, having no actual relationship with another because you might get hurt, and so on. The consequences one sees very clearly. Now, can all those consequences, which is the beginning of the hurt, end? To find that out - are you waiting for me to answer it? - 43:07 to find that out - we are going into it very deeply - what is hurt? You say, the 'me.' The me is the image which you have created about yourself or the society has imposed on you. The society is your relationship with another which is your making, so don't... - you follow? It is... (laughs) So you are hurt because you have an image. The image is the symbol, the idea, the name, the form, the whole structure of the psyche. Right? That gets hurt, and our conditioning is to get over that hurt gradually, do it, go into it, examine it, analyse it, find the cause and the action, which all takes time. 44:20 Right? Now, is it possible not to have an image about oneself at all? Then there is no hurt. You understand? Right? Is it possible? As long as you have an image that you are a very powerful person, dominant, aggressive, beautiful, clear intellect, and all the rest of it, the image that one builds up for oneself from childhood right through old age and death - we are asking, we are saying, as long as that image exists, there must be hurt, superficial or very, very deep. Right? Now, can that image, seeing the truth of it - you understand? - 45:35 seeing that as long as you have an image about yourself you are bound to be hurt, and the consequences are you are violent, you become more and more dull because you are withdrawing, fear, and so on, so on. Seeing all the consequences, seeing that the image is hurt, seeing the truth of it, not just the intellectual concept of it, the very perception is the very ending of the image. Right? Perception. So, we have to examine what we mean by perception, seeing.	41:52 我们从小开始就受到伤害，内心的伤害、心理上的伤害，也可以这么说：内在的伤害。而这种伤害的结果就是造成了我们的「抵抗」，我们会在自己周围建造起一道“围墙”，我们会退缩，以便不再遭受更多伤害，我们总是在恐惧自己会受到更多的伤害。而这种恐惧的结果就是「暴力」，无法与他人产生真实的关系，因为你可能会受到伤害，等等。我们可以非常清楚地看到这种结果。那么，所有这些结果 ——它们就是伤害的开始—— 它们可以终结吗？去发现它 ——你们都在等着我来回答它吗？—— 43:07 去搞清楚它 ——我们将会非常深入地来探究它—— 是什么东西受到了伤害？你说：是“我”受到了伤害。而这个“我”，它是你所创造出来的、关于你自己的意象，或者它是这个社会强加于你的。这个社会就是你和他人的关系，而这个社会是你一手打造的，所以请不要……——你们跟上了吗？它其实就是……（笑）所以你之所以受到伤害，是因为你有着一个「意象」。而「意象」就是符号、看法、名字、外形、整个心智的结构。对吧？是它（意象）受到了伤害，而我们的局限就在于：我们要“逐渐地”去克服这种伤害，去克服它、去研究它、去检视它、去分析它、去发现它的原因，然后采取行动，而这一切都需要花费时间。 44:20 对吧？那么，我们是否可能完全没有关于自我的「意象」呢？那时就不会有伤害了。你们明白了吗？是吧？这可能吗？只要你还是有着一个意象：认为自己是一个很有权势的人、有支配力的人、积极进取的人、美丽的人、明智的人，等等这些，那个意象是你为自己建立起来的 ——从小开始到老年，直至死亡—— 而我们在问，我们在说的是：只要这个「意象」还是存在，就必定会有伤害 ——肤浅表面的伤害，或者非常非常深刻的伤害。对吧？那么，这个意象能否在看到了它的真相以后 ——你们理解了吗？—— 45:35 你看到了：只要你还是有着一个关于自己的意象，你就必定会受到伤害，而伤害造成的结果就是：你会变得暴力，你会变得越来越迟钝，因为你正在退缩，你感到恐惧，等等等等。看到所有这些结果，看到是那个「意象」受到了伤害，看到这件事的真相 ——不只是关于它的思想观念，这种“看到”本身就是意象的终结。对吧？看到。所以我们必须要来检视一下我们所说的「看到」、「看见」，它是什么意思？
46:24 We see both optically, visually, the things around us, and we name them because that's part of our training, part of our conditioning: the moment you see this thing you call it a tree. That is, the action of knowledge operating in perception. You are following all this? Is there a perception without the accumulation of the past? To observe without time. Right? That is, when we observe, we observe not only visually, optically, but when we observe ourselves, if you have ever done it, which I doubt, most of you don't, I am pretty sure - if you observe yourself, in that observation there is the observer and the observed. Right? The one who witnesses and the observed, which is, the thinker and the thought. 48:02 Right? The thinker is the thought. There is no division between the thinker and the thought. This is you will not accept this - examine it, please. The thinker is the result of many, many, many incidents of thought - right? - which is the past. The thinker is put together by thought. So, thought is the thinker. Right? There is no division between the thinker and the thought. That division is created by time which is the movement in division. You are getting all this, sirs? No, no, madame. Right, sir? At least I must see somebody who says, 'Yes, I have got it.'	46:24 我们可以用眼睛、从视觉上去看我们周围的事物，然后我们会给它们命名，因为这（命名）是我们教育培养的一部分，也是我们局限的一部分：当你一看到这个东西，你立刻就会把它称为“树”。换句话说，知识开始在这种观察中活跃起来了。你们跟上这一切了吗？那么是否存在着一种没有“过去积累物”的「看」呢？也就是“没有时间”地去观察。明白了吗？换句话说，当我们去观察的时候，我们不仅是从视觉上、通过眼睛去观察，当我们观察自己时，如果你曾经观察过自己的话 ——我对此持怀疑态度，我相信你们大多数人都没有观察过，我确信这一点 ——但如果你曾经观察过自己，（你会发现）在这种观察中，存在着「观察者」和「被观察物」。对吧？一个在看的人，和他所看的东西，也就是：存在着「思想者」和他的「思想」。 48:02 是吧？但思考者就是他的思想。思想者和思想之间是没有区别的。但你们并不会接受同意这一点 ——所以请你们去检视一下它。思想者就是无数思想事件的产物 ——不是吗？ —— 也就是「过去」。「思想者」是由思想所拼凑起来的。所以「思想」就是「思想者」。对吧？「思想者」和「思想」是没有区别的。那种区分是由「时间」创造出来的 ——而「时间」就是“分裂的运动”。先生们，你们明白所有这些东西了吗？不对，说错了，你们是女士。对吧，先生？至少我得看到有人说，“是的，我已经明白了。”
49:29 Q:I have got it.	49:29 提问者：我已经明白了。
49:31 K:No, no, you can't get it so quickly as that. (Laughter)	49:31 克：不，不行，你也不能这么快就明白它了呀。（笑声）
49:39 You see, what we are trying to point out is, our conditioning through the millennia has been to make an effort, conflict. Conflict, effort, involves time. Right? Of course, because it is a division in time. Right, sir? So there is always conflict, from childhood till we die, there is always struggle, struggle, battle, because of this division in time. Right? I am glad there is somebody who is seeing with me. And is it possible to act without effort, without time? That is, to perceive, and that very perception is action, not idea and then interval and action, which is the division of time. 51:08 In that division various other incidents take place: if I have to go from here to there, then other things are happening. So, when there is division in the movement of time other incidents take place, which we call problems. I hope you are meeting all this. Right, sir? We are asking: can the brain which is so conditioned by millennia, by a million years, perceive, and that very perception is instant action? Because we have no time. We are decaying, we are degenerating, we are corrupt - right? - and if you allow time, you become more and more degenerate, which is what's happening. 52:29 Which is, when you say, 'I will not degenerate but I will be generate,' (laughs) you have lost it: so, we are saying, what does it mean to perceive? You understand my question, sir? Which is, can I - is there a possibility of this perception of the image which gets hurt, and to see the danger, both biologically as well as psychologically, the danger of having an image - to see it instantly, and the very seeing is the ending of the image, which doesn't allow time? You have got it, sir? Have you, please, intellectually even, grasped it? 53:35 So, if you have grasped it verbally, which is the intellectual process, and watching intellect, what it does, the moment you have grasped it intellectually, it has already become an idea. Right? Of course. Right, sir? It has already become an idea. Therefore, you have moved away from perception. I wonder if you see this. Right?	49:39 你瞧，我们正试图指出的是：我们几千年以来所受到的制约就是：我们需要一直去努力，那种冲突。冲突和努力中就包含了「时间」。对吧？这是毫无疑问的。因为它是一种时间上的割裂。对吧，先生？所以我们总是有着冲突，从小开始直到我们死去，我们永远有着努力、奋斗、斗争，究其原因，就是这种“时间的割裂”。是吧？我很高兴终于有人正在和我一起看到这一点。那么，我们是否可能没有努力、没有时间地去行动呢？换句话说：去看，而这种「看」，它本身就是行动，不是先有了一个想法观念，在间隔了一段时间后，再去行动 ——这就是“时间上的割裂”了。 51:08 在那种“割裂”中，会发生各种其他事件：如果我要从这里出发去那里，那么（途中）就会发生一些其他事情。所以，当时间的运动中有了「分裂」，那么其他的事件就会发生，而我们会把它们称之为“问题”。我希望你们正在理解这一切。是吧，先生？我们正在问：大脑几千年以来、百万年以来，已经如此地深受制约，这样的大脑，它是否能够去「看」？而这种「看」本身就是「立即的行动」。因为我们已经没有时间了。我们正在腐烂，我们正在退化，我们已经是腐败堕落的了 ——是吧？ —— 而如果你允许「时间」介入进来，那你就会变得越来越堕落了，而这就是正在发生的事情。 52:29 也就是，你会说： “我不会堕落退化，我还会生娃”（笑）你已经错过了它：所以，我们正在说的是：「看」意味着什么？你明白我的问题吗，先生？也就是说：我是否能够 ——是否有可能这样子去看那个意象 ——受到伤害的就是这个意象—— 然后看到它的危险：既包括生物学上的危险，也包括心理上的危险，也就是“拥有意象”的危险 ——立刻看到它，而这种「看到」本身就是意象的终结，在其中是不允许有「时间」的。你明白它了吗，先生？你理解了吗，哪怕只是思想智力上理解了它？ 53:35 所以，如果你已经在口头文字上领会了它的意思 ——这是一个智性化的过程，即透过思维智力去看它，那么当你从智力上理解了它以后，它会变成什么呢？那时它就已经变成了一个「观念」。对吧？当然如此了。是吧，先生？它已经变成了一种「观点」。因此，你就已经脱离了这种「看」。我想知道你们是否明白了这一点。明白了吗？
54:13 So, perception implies the comprehension of the word, the word has a relative value, which is the understanding of the intellect, and being aware of that and not letting it wander off into an idea - you follow? And perception implies the operation of the intellect, the whole reactions at their highest level, and seeing what is exactly the truth of an image - right? - and therefore the ending of it. Are you doing it or you are playing with words? Please, this is... You understand? We are saying something that goes totally contrary to everything that you have accepted. 55:43 So, what you hear, don't let that become a tradition, then you are lost. But whereas if you actually listen - because what we are saying is the truth - that as long as you have an image created by your society, by your colleges, universities, by your relationship with another, and so on, so on, as long as you have an image about yourself that image is going to get hurt, and that hurt expresses itself in various forms - trying to dominate people, trying to withdraw from, and so on, so on, so on. Seeing, listening to the truth of that, listening with all your capacity, your intellect, every nerve listening, then that very listening is the perception and the ending of it, which has no time. 57:02 You understand this? That is, violence is one of the inherited responses from the earliest of times. Right? Man has been violent from timeless time. And we have done everything to be free of that violence. We have invented non-violence, an ideal which never is, it goes overboard. We have tried every way to be gentle, to be kind, to be generous, and yet in our hearts, in our relationship with each other we are very violent people.	54:13 所以，「看到」意味着理解那些文字词语，文字词语具有相对意义上的价值，也就是，从智性上理解了它，然后去觉察意识到它，而不要让它离开而转变为一种「观念」 ——你们理解了吗？而「看到」意味着你的智性、你全部的反应，在最高层次上的运作，去看到「意象」切实的真相 ——对吧？ —— 从而结束掉它。你正在这么做吗？还是说你只是在玩文字游戏？拜托了，这真的是你们理解了吗？我们所说的东西，它和你们所接受认可的一切事物是截然相反的。 55:43 但是，对于你所听到的东西，请不要将它变成一种「传统」，那样的话你就迷失了。然而如果你可以真正地聆听 ——因为我们正在说的东西就是「真理」—— 即：只要你还是有着一个意象，这个意象是由你的社会、你的学院、你的大学、你和他人的关系，等等所创造出来的，只要你还是有着一个关于你自己的「意象」，那个「意象」就将会受到伤害，而这种伤害会以各种形式表现出来 ——试图去支配别人，试图退缩，等等等等。请看到这其中的真相，聆听这其中的真相，用你全部的能力去聆听，用你的思想智性、用你的每一根神经去聆听，那时这种「聆听」本身，就是「看到」，从而结束它，这其中是没有「时间」的。 57:02 你们理解它了吗？换句话说，「暴力」是一种我们遗传继承下来的反应，从最古老的时代开始所遗传继承下来的东西。对吧？人类自古以来就一直是暴力的。而我们已经用尽了一切办法来摆脱暴力。我们发明了「非暴力」，但它（非暴力）只是一个理想，而从未实现，它已经做得有点过头了。我们已经尝试过了每一种方法，去变得温和、去变得友善、去变得慷慨大方，然而在我们的内心，在我们彼此间的关系中，我们依然是非常暴力的人。
57:59 And religions, religions throughout, they said, 'Try, work, forget yourself, don't be violent, don't kill,' but from immemorial time we are still doing the same thing. So we say, it will take time to dissipate this violence. Such a deception, you follow, sir? We have taken over a million years and we have not got rid of it, and we think in another million years we will be rid of it. In the meantime let me be violent. That is the game we play. So, we are saying: is it possible to end that violence instantly? That means the understanding that psychologically, inwardly, there is no time at all, that you don't become. You follow, sir? You don't become, you don't achieve enlightenment. Which means the whole movement of time.	57:59 而宗教——遍及世界的宗教—— 它们说，“努力、工作、忘掉你自己，不要暴力，不要杀戮”，然而从古至今，我们仍旧在做着同样的事情。然后我们说：要花费时间来消除掉这种暴力。这真的是一种「欺骗」，你们理解了吗，先生？我们已经花费了超过一百万年的时间，然而我们并没有摆脱掉「暴力」，但我们却认为再给我们一百万年时间，我们就可以摆脱掉它了。而在此期间，让我继续暴力吧。这就是我们在玩的游戏。所以，我们在说的是：我们是否可能立刻就结束这种暴力？这意味着，我们要明白这一点：那就是心理上、内在而言，根本就不存在什么「时间」，你是无法去“变成”什么的。你理解了吗，先生？你无法去“成为”什么，你无法去达到“开悟”。因为这意味着时间的整个运动。
59:29 So, we are saying: observe violence, which is to be angry, to hate, to be jealous - various forms of violence - and don't escape into a non-violent movement, which is the opposite. So, when you observe the fact, there is no opposite. Are you following all this? I observe violence in me. I am violent. Why should there be non-violence? That's my conditioning. Right? That's my hope. That's my intellectual concept - one day I will be non-violent, what is it, what I was talking about? - violence. So, the fact of violence, the fact has no opposite. 1:00:46 Right? Do you see that? If you see that, you are finished. You understand? Because all our education, all our religion, everything traditional has said: work at it, gradually get rid of it - you follow? Which is movement in time, which is division. Time is division. So, when there's observation of violence, only violence, the observer who's watching the violence - you follow? - that very observer is violence. Right? Right? So, the observer is the observed. Are you getting tired? You understand, sir? The moment you have a division it's the movement in time - right? - 1:02:10 and therefore there must be effort, which is, the observer is thinking, the observer thinks he is different from the thing he observes, and so the very division brings conflict, conflict, suppression, and all the rest of it. But when the observer realises, that which he is observing is part of himself - right? - so there is no division, there is no duality at all. Right? So, can you see this fact that you are violent, and the fact has no division.	59:29 所以我们在说：去观察「暴力」，也就是那种愤怒、仇恨、嫉妒 ——暴力的各种表现形式—— 而不要逃避到「非暴力运动」中去，「非暴力运动」就是暴力的反面。所以当你观察这个事实，这时是不存在「对立面」的。你们都跟上这一切了吗？我观察自己身上的「暴力」。我是暴力的。所以为什么要有「非暴力」呢？这就是我的局限之处。是吧？这（非暴力）只是我的希望。这只是我思想智力上的概念 ——总有一天我将会变得不暴力，它是什么，我刚才在说的是什么？ ——暴力。所以，事实是「暴力」，而「事实」是没有对立面的。 1:00:46 对吧？你看到这一点了吗？如果你看到了这一点，那就完事儿了。你懂了吗？因为我们所有的教育、所有的宗教、所有传统的东西，它们都在说：努力去达到它，去慢慢地摆脱掉它 ——你们明白了吗？这就是“落入于时间的运动” ——也就是「分裂」。时间就是「分裂」。所以，当我们去观察暴力，只存在「暴力」时，那么这个正在观察暴力的观察者 ——你们跟上了吗？ —— 这个观察者本身，他就是「暴力」。是吧？对吗？所以，观察者就是他所观察的东西。你们是不是累了？你理解它了吗，先生？一旦你有了「分裂」，也就是“落入于时间的运动” ——是吧？—— 1:02:10 那时就必定会有「努力」，也就是说，那个观察者认为观察者认为他是不同于他所观察的事物的，因此这种「区分」本身就带来了冲突，冲突斗争、压抑，等等这些东西。然而当观察者意识到：他正在观察的那个东西就是他自己的一部分时 ——对吧？ —— 那时就不会有「分裂」了，那时就完全不会有「二元性」了。是吧？所以，你能否只是看这个事实 ——即「你是暴力的」，这个事实是不存在「分裂」的。
1:03:12 So, what has taken place in the mind? What has taken place in your mind when you are only observing the fact and not inventing the opposite? You understand? That you are jealous, that you are envious, that is a fact, and that observer is the observed, which is envy. So there is no conflict or suppression with regard to a particular reaction. The reaction is a fact. Now, can the mind totally observe this reaction which is a fact called jealousy? You get it, sir? Observe without any movement of time. The moment you have the movement of time, you have brought about division. 1:04:37 Is this actually taking place? Because, we are saying: you eliminate totally every form of conflict in which we have been conditioned for millennia. To live without a single conflict which means to live without a single problem. I wonder if you understand this. You may have technological problems: how to go to the moon - it took them a long time, 300,000 people, I believe, working at that one thing, that took many years. But if we understand the nature of time, the whole structure of time, psychologically as well as physical time, then we relegate physical time to its proper place. 1:06:09 I have to catch a bus, train, aeroplane, whatever it is, go to the office, and so on - knowledge. But psychologically there is no time. Which means to live a life without a single problem. Have you ever gone into this question? Right? Meditation isn't a problem, which you are all making into a problem: how to sit, how to breathe, how to hold - you know, the system, the methods, the various gurus offering various tricks, and all that.	1:03:12 那时，头脑中会发生什么呢？你的心中会发生什么呢？当你只是在观察一个事实，而不发明出事实的反面，那时会发生什么？你理解了吗？你是嫉妒的，你羡慕别人，这是一个事实，而这个观察者就是被观察物 ——也就是「嫉妒」。所以，对于某个特定的反应来说，它是不存在冲突或者压抑的。那个「反应」是一个事实。那么，头脑能否完全彻底地观察这种反应 ——也就是被称为“嫉妒”的这个事实呢？懂了吗，先生？去观察它，而没有任何时间的运动。一旦你有了时间的运动，你就带来了「分裂」。 1:04:37 这件事是否正在切实地发生？因为我们说：你彻底消除了每一种形式的冲突 ——那些我们几千年以来一直受其制约的冲突。去没有丝毫冲突地生活，它意味着一种没有任何问题的生活。我不知道你们是否理解了它。你们或许会有各种技术上的问题：如何登陆月球 ——这件事花费了人们漫长的时间，我相信应该有30万人都在为这一件事而努力工作，他们花费了很多年的时间。但如果我们了解了时间的本质，时间的整个结构 ——既包括心理上的时间，也包括外在物理上的时间，那么我们就会把外在物理上的时间降级到本应属于它的合理位置。 1:06:09 我必须要赶公共汽车、赶火车、赶飞机，不管赶什么，我必须要去办公室工作，等等 ——这些都需要「知识」。但是在心理上，却没有任何「时间」。这意味着去过一种没有任何问题的生活。你们是否深入探究过这个问题？有吗？冥想并不是一个问题，但你们却全都把它变成了一个问题：如何打坐、如何呼吸、如何保持住…… ——你知道的，那些练习体系、那些方法、各种古鲁提供给我们形形色色的技巧，等等这些。
1:07:06 What is a problem? I am showing you how to... - please apply it. Test it in your life and you will see it will work. What is a problem? A problem is something that you haven't resolved. There are mathematical problems, scientific problems, biological. We are not talking of those. We are talking about psychological problems between human beings, the problems that exist in our relationship with another: husband, wife - you know, all the rest of it. A problem means, implies the non-resolution of it. Now, can you resolve that problem as it arises and end it, not carry it over even for a day? Because, see what happens: a problem continued makes the brain dull, actually. 1:08:23 You can test it out for yourself. The brain's activity is made slower because it is burdened, it makes itself incapacitated. It has no capacity of elasticity when you carry a problem for many, many, many years, or even for a week. So, the question is: can you end the problem as it arises? You understand? Are you interested in all this? Sir, do it. Don't accept the words, but actually test it. Then it is worth it. But if you say, 'Yes, nice idea, nice thing, but I can't do it.' Or say, 'Tell me how to do it,' there is no how, because the how implies a method, a system, somebody will tell you what to do. 1:09:47 If somebody tells you what to do, you are back in the old game of tradition. Right? So, a mind that is clear has no tradition. So, one has a problem; problem implies that which hasn't been thought out, investigated, resolved. Our problems exist in the field of relationship. Right? And between man and woman, sexual, non-sexual, friendly, non-friendly - you follow? - the whole communication between man and man, and woman and man, the whole field of it, not just one particular problem, either sexual, or this, or that.	1:07:06 什么是「问题」？我正在告诉你们如何去…… ——请你们去实践它。在你的生活中去检验一下它，然后你就会看到它是有用的。什么是「问题」？「问题」是某种你尚未解决的东西。我们有着数学上的问题、科学上的问题，生物学上的问题。但我们并没有在谈论这类问题。我们正在讨论的是「心理上的问题」，人与人之间存在的问题，那些问题存在于我们和别人的关系中：丈夫、妻子——你知道的，等等这些关系。「问题」意味着……它暗示着它尚未得到解决。那么，你能否在问题升起的那一刻就解决掉那个问题，结束它，而不要继续带着这个问题哪怕只是一天？因为……请看到发生了什么：当一个问题延续下去，它会让大脑变得迟钝，这是事实。 1:08:23 你可以自己去检验一下它。大脑的活动会变得迟缓，因为它有了负担，它让自己变得无能为力了。大脑会丧失它「灵活弹性」的能力 ——因为你一直背负着那个问题，背负了很多很多年，或者哪怕只是背负了一个星期。所以，我们的问题就是：你能否在问题一出现的时候就结束掉那个问题？你明白了吗？你们对这些东西有兴趣吗？先生，去这样做做看。不要只是接受这些话语，而是实际地去检验一下它。这样做才是值得的。但如果你说，“是的，很棒的想法，很精彩的观点，可是我做不到。 ” 或者说，“请告诉我如何去做它”，并不存在什么“如何”，因为“如何”就暗示了一种方法、一个体系，某人将会告诉你该怎么做。 1:09:47 如果有人告诉你该怎么做，那你就又回到了「传统」的老游戏上了。对吧？因此，一个清晰明了的头脑是不会有「传统」的。所以，某人有了一个问题；「问题」暗示着某个事物还没有被彻底思考过、还没有被探究并解决。我们的问题存在于「关系」的领域中。是吧？男人和女人之间的关系 ——不管是性方面的关系，还是非性方面的关系，不管是友好的关系，还是不友好的关系 ——你们跟上了吗？男人与男人之间、男人与女人之间全部的沟通交流，这整个「关系」的领域，不只是某个特定的问题，不管是性方面的问题，还是这样或那样的问题。
1:11:03 We are dealing with the whole human problem in relationship, not a particular problem. Because, if we were examining only a particular problem, then we are dealing with a part and not with the whole. Is that clear? Oh, come on, sirs! So we are dealing with the whole problem of human relationship, with the boss, in the factory, when you come home, your wife, your husband, sex, non-sex, domination, wanting to possess, attachment - all that implies a problem. Right? First of all, why do we have problems? Why do we live with problems? You understand? Is it we are lazy, is it that we have accepted as the norm of life to have problems, or is it, for millennia we have had problems and why not now, carry on? 1:12:29 Which means, the mind the brain has accepted problems as part of life. Right? So, refuse to accept problems. You understand? Challenge the brain and the mind to have no problems. No, don't agree, sir, you have to do it! Which means if a problem arises, as it inevitably will unless you have real love in your heart - right? - not sexual love, not love of power, position and all that nonsense but... - I won't go into that, that goes off somewhere else. How to deal with a problem - right? - without allowing a single second of interval. Right?	1:11:03 我们正在处理的是人类关系中的全部问题，而不是某个特定的问题。因为如果我们只检视某一个问题的话，那我们就是在处理「部分」而非「整体」了。这一点清楚了吗？噢，加油啊，先生们！所以我们正在处理关于人类关系的整个问题，在工厂里和老板的关系，或者当你回到家里，和你妻子或丈夫的关系，性方面的关系，非性方面的关系，那种支配的关系，想要去占有，想要去依赖 ——所有这些都意味着「问题」。对吧？首先，为什么我们会有问题？为什么我们要带着问题而生活？你们明白了吗？是不是因为我们很懒惰？是不是因为我们已经接受了这一点，将其作为生活的常态 ——即「生活中总是会有问题」，还是因为几千年以来，我们一直都是带着各种问题在生活，所以为什么现在不这样呢？不继续带着这些问题呢？ 1:12:29 这意味着，头脑、大脑已经接受认可了「问题」，将其视为生活的一部分。是吧？所以，我们要拒绝接受这些「问题」。你们懂了吗？向大脑和头脑提出挑战：能不能不要有「问题」？不，请不要同意，先生，你要行动起来！它的意思就是：如果一个问题出现了 ——问题不可避免地会出现—— 除非你心中有真正的「爱」 ——对吧？ —— 不是「性爱」，不是对权力、地位、等等这些荒谬之物的爱，而是 ——我就不展开讲了，那样就偏离主题了。那么我们要如何去处理一个问题呢？是吧？不允许有任何一秒钟的「间隔」出现。好吗？
1:13:47 We will go into it. A problem arises as long as there is a centre. Right? As long as there is a centre there must be circumference, diameter - you follow? The whole circle. The whole circle is our problem. Right? To have no centre is to have no problem. Please, sir, see what is involved in it, not just shake your head and say, 'Yes, I agree with you.' It has no meaning, but see what is implied in it. 1:14:50 First of all, the depth of it, the beauty of it, the rationality of it, the sanity of it, that as long as there is a 'me' with the centre, I must have problems. Right? It may be very dangerous problems, destructive problems, or superficial problems. And as long as there is a problem, there is no love. But of course, that does not exist, so we can skip that. We will come back to it later.	1:13:47 我们将会来深入探讨它。只要还是存在着一个「中心」，问题就会出现。是这样吧？只要还是存在一个「中心」，就必定会有“圆周”范围，会有“直径”——你们跟上了吗？整一个圆圈。那整个圈就是我们的「问题」。是吧？而没有了「中心」，就等于没有了「问题」。拜托了，先生，请看到这其中蕴含的深意，不要只是晃动脑袋，然后说，“是的，我同意你的看法。 ” 这是没有意义的，我们要看到这其中所隐含的东西。 1:14:50 首先，要看到它的深度、它的「美」，它的「理性」，它的「明智」，即：只要还是存在着一个带着「中心」的“我”，那我就必然会有各种问题。对吧？它也许是非常危险的问题、破坏性的问题、或者是肤浅表面的问题。然而只要还是存在着「问题」，那就不会有「爱」。当然了，我们还没有达到这一步，所以我们可以先跳过它。我们之后再回过头来讲它吧。
1:15:42 So, is it possible to live in the world, in the modern world, having a wife, husband, children, going to a job and all the rest of it, without having a centre? You understand, sir? See the fact, the fact that as long as you have a centre there must be problems, and if you say, 'Well, that's my life, to have problems,' perfectly right, carry on. But if you say, 'Problems are most destructive not only to the brain but the wholeness of the mind...' the mind that's fit, alive, active, because every problem is like a blanket that smothers. 1:16:54 So, if you see the fact that the centre is to have problems - right? No. Not only hear it but see the truth of it. Then what takes place? You understand? A mind, a being that has no centre and has to live with a wife and a husband, and the whole culture - a whole not culture, I won't call it culture - the whole world, which means you are acting every minute. Life is action. Right? But when you act from a centre, you are introducing the whole problem. I wonder if you see it. See the cadre of it, the framework of it, the wholeness of it. 1:18:20 That is, the mind that has functioned with a centre has created innumerable problems - politically, economically, socially - and in intimate or not intimate relationship. And having a problem is the most destructive way of living. That destroys the youth of the brain - you understand? the youth of the mind. If you listen to it and see the truth of it, it is over. There is no how. There is only the act of listening.	1:15:42 所以，我们是否可能生活在这个世界，生活在这个现代世界中 ——有妻子、丈夫、孩子，需要上班工作，等等这些—— 但却没有一个「中心」呢？你明白了吗，先生？去看到这个事实，它是事实：也就是，只要你还是有一个「中心」，你就必定会有各种问题，而如果你说，“哦，这就是我的生活，生活中就是有各种问题的”，这也完全没问题，你可以继续这样子生活。但如果你说，“「问题」是极具破坏性的，它不仅会毁坏大脑，还会破坏心灵的完整性……” 那颗健康的、充满活力的、积极活跃的心灵，因为每一个问题就像是一块厚毯子，它闷得我们透不过气来。 1:16:54 所以，如果你看到了这个事实，即：有了「中心」就有了「问题」——对吧？不对。不只是听到这种说法，而是要看到它的真实性。那时会发生什么呢？你们理解了吗？当一颗心灵，一个存在者没有了「中心」，但他又不得不和妻子或丈夫生活在一起，和他们那整个文明生活在一起 ——不是整个「文明」，我不会把它称之为「文明」—— 应该是和整个世界生活在一起时，那时会发生什么？那意味着你每一分钟都在行动。生活就是「行动」。对吧？然而当你是经由某个「中心」去行动时，你就是在引发所有的问题。我不知道你们是否看到了这一点。看到了它的骨干、它的框架、它的整体。 1:18:20 换句话说，那个带着一个「中心」而运作的头脑，它已经创造出了无数的问题 ——政治上的、经济上的、社会上的问题—— 以及存在于亲密关系或不亲密关系中的问题。而带着问题生活，这是最具破坏性的生活方式。它破坏了大脑的青春活力 ——你理解了吗？心灵的年轻活力。如果你能聆听它，并看到它的真相，那事情就结束了。并不存在“如何……”的问题。存在的只有那个「聆听」的行动。
1:19:37 Tradition means - the word - to hand down from generation to generation values, rituals, dogmas, beliefs, gods, pujas, rituals - the whole thing that man is caught in, and in that tradition nothing can flourish. It is like a steamroller going over human beings, and if you accept that, all right, live with it, and be happy with it. But you are not going to answer the challenge of the world, the global challenge, which is that man must free himself from everything to flower. And the flowering can only take place in the soil of human relationship. 1:20:47 Right, sir? Not somewhere else in the Himalayas or in some monastery, even there, he is in relationship with his fellow being. And culture, which is to grow, to develop, to have the highest excellence ethically, is not possible when you are merely... your mind has become merely a machine, which tradition does. And tradition has said, accept time. And somebody comes along like me, and says, 'Don't, you won't find light, enlightenment at the end of time, you will find it where you are now.' Right, sirs.	1:19:37 「传统」意味着…… 「传统」这个词的意思是一代又一代地传下来，那些价值观、仪式、教条、信仰、神明、印度教礼拜、宗教仪式 ——所有这些人们陷入于其中的事物，而在这种「传统」中，没有任何东西可以茁壮成长。它（传统）就像是一台压路机，从人类身上碾压而过，而如果你接受容忍了它，没问题，那就带着它生活并对此心满意足好了。但这样你将无法回应这个世界的挑战，这种全球性的挑战 ——也就是人必须要把自己从一切事物中解脱出来然后开花绽放。而这种「开花绽放」只能够在「人类关系」的土壤中发生。 1:20:47 对吧，先生？而不是在别的地方发生 ——喜马拉雅山或某个修道院即使在那些地方，人依然会和他的同伴产生关系。而「文明」——也就是去成长、去发展，去达到至高卓越的伦理道德，然而当你仅仅只是当你的头脑只是变成了一个机器，就不可能有这种「文明」了 ——这种情况是传统造成的。传统说：要接受认可「时间」。然后某个像我这样的人过来了，说， “别这么做，你是无法在时间的尽头找到光明、开悟的，你只能在此时此地找到它。 ” 就讲到这里吧，先生们。
1:22:22 I believe, we will meet tomorrow if you want to.	1:22:22 我相信我们明天会再见面的 ——如果你们想来的话。

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