Krishnamurti Subtitles
|
MA8384Q2 - 第二场问答
|
|
| 0:10 Krishnamurti: I nearly forgot. In investigating these questions we are going to have a dialogue. A dialogue is a conversation between two people. You ask the question, the speaker answers it then you respond to that answer, and when you respond to that answer then the speaker answers your response. So in this process of questioning, answering, answering, and the very answering is being questioned, so this keeps going till both the questioner and the speaker disappear altogether, only the question remains. You understand? I wonder if I can make this clear. 1:49 It is very important that the question remains suspended as it were. And when you ask a question and the speaker answers that question, and you respond to that question through that answer – you are following this? No, I am afraid not. Please, this is rather complicated. I don't know how to put it across so that we really understand this problem, this question. Because in questioning and answering, from each one of us, till you and the speaker are no longer important but only the question remains. And as the question remains, it gains vitality, energy. 3:20 You understand this? We are going to try this morning. Have you finished with your waving, sir? This is a rather serious question that we are putting before you, that what is important is we must ask questions if you are at all serious. And in questioning, the answer may be correct or incorrect but you must respond to that answer, and then when you respond, the speaker then questions what you have responded, so in this process you as the questioner and I who responds disappear altogether so that only the question remains. You understand it? 4:51 Do we meet this at all, some of us at least? Because we never ask questions, which is, we want the answer to be comfortable, suitable, convenient, hopeful. But in questioning and answering, all that disappears. We are trying to find out what is the true, what is factual, what is the correct answer, correct response, precisely. So, to find that out you and I must totally disappear, only the question and answer remains. You get it? I hope some of you get it. | 0:10 克里希那穆提（以下简称“克”）： 我差点儿忘记它（双手合十礼）。 在探究这些问题的过程中， 我们将会进行一场对话。 「对话」就是两个人之间进行的一次谈话。 你提出问题， 演讲者回答它， 然后你对那个答案作出回应， 而当你对那个答案作出回应后， 演讲者便会对你的回应作出回答。 由此在这个过程中：提问、 回应、回答， 然后就回答本身提出疑问， 以这样的方式不断进行下去， 直到提问者和演讲者都彻底消失为止， 只有那个问题留下来了。 你们理解了吗？ 我不知道我能不能把它讲清楚。 1:49 这一点是非常重要的， 那就是：这个问题就好像处于 “悬而未决”的状态。 当你问了一个问题， 然后演讲者回答了那个问题， 接着你又因为那个回答 而对这个问题作出反应 ——你们跟上它了吗？ 不，我恐怕你们没跟上。 请注意，这件事是相当复杂的。 我不知道该如何把它表达清楚， 由此使得我们可以真正地理解 这个难题、这个问题。 因为在提问和回答的过程中 ——我们每个人的问答， 直到最后，你和演讲者都变得不再重要了， 而只有那个问题留了下来。 而由于问题留在了那里， 于是它便获得了生命力和能量。 3:20 你们理解这点了吗？ 今天早上，我们将会试着来 那位先生，你挥完手了吗？ 这是一个我们摆在你面前的 相当严肃的问题， 那就是：重要的是 我们必须要问问题 ——如果你们真的很认真的话。 在提问的过程中， 那个答案也许是正确的或不正确的， 但你必须要对那个答案作出反应， 然后当你作出回应后， 演讲者再去质疑你的回应， 由此在这个过程中， 作为提问者的你，和作为回应者的我， 都会完全消失， 这样的话，就只有那个问题留下来了。 你们理解这一点了吗？ 4:51 我们究竟是否都领会了这点 ——至少我们中有些人领会到了？ 因为我们从来没有问过问题， 它的意思是： 我们想要那个答案是令人舒服的、 适合我们的、方便的、充满希望的。 然而在提问和回答的过程中， 所有这一切都消失了。 我们正在试图去搞清楚 什么是真实的、什么是事实、 什么是正确的答案、正确的反应， 去严谨细致地搞清楚它。 所以，要搞清楚它， 你和我就必须完全消失不见， 而只剩下那个问题和答案。 你们听懂了吗？ 我希望你们中有人听懂了。 |
| 6:00 It is a lovely morning, a few drops of rain, and the earth is rich and beautiful, and to have a relationship with these trees, with nature, with those marvellous clouds you perhaps saw this morning, full of beauty, full of light and astonishing shapes. And we never look at these things, we are too much concerned with ourselves. And to go beyond ourselves requires a great deal of thought, enquiry and so on. We are not dealing with theories or principles or ideas, we are dealing with our daily life. 7:25 Not corresponding our daily life to some theory, some teaching, whether it is the teachings of the Buddha or the teachings of somebody else. We are not concerned with the teaching of others, we are concerned to find out for ourselves how to live without conflict, without pain. And that doesn't depend on any theory. And especially in this country, you live on words, phrases, tremendous knowledge of what other people have said, you are full of commentaries. And you never discover for yourself when you depend or follow other people's concepts and principles and teachings. 8:42 So please, let's find out if we can live without comparison and therefore without conflict, to see if we can really fundamentally change our way of living. Because the world is in a great crisis – I don't know if you know all about it – tremendous crisis, not only physical crisis but crisis in consciousness of human beings. So please, let's be serious, in spite of the beauty and the light among the trees. | 6:00 这是一个美好的早晨， 下了一点小雨， 大地富饶而又美丽， 而我们要和这些树、 和大自然、 和那些美妙的云彩产生联系 ——今天早上你们也许看到了这些云彩， 洋溢着美、透着光芒，有着令人惊奇的形状。 然而我们从来不去看这些东西， 我们太过于关注我们自己了。 而要超脱我们自己则需要大量的思考、 探询 等等。 我们并不是在处理各种理论、准则或观点， 我们在处理的是我们的日常生活。 7:25 但不是让我们的日常生活去符合于 某种理论、某种教导 ——不管它是佛陀的教导， 还是其他什么人的教导。 我们并不关心其他人的教导， 我们关心的是 亲自去发现 如何没有冲突、 没有痛苦地生活。 而这并不需要依靠任何理论。 尤其是在这个国家里，你们依靠语言文字、 依靠那些措词而活， 无数那些别人所说的的知识， 你们脑子里充满了各种评注。 你们从来没有亲自去探索发现， 因为你们依赖或跟从他人的观念、 行为道德准则和教导。 8:42 所以，拜托了， 让我们来看看：我们是否可以 没有比较， 从而没有冲突地生活， 来看看我们是否可以真正地、 从根本上改变我们的生活方式。 因为这个世界正处于极大的危机中 ——我不清楚你们是否知道所有那些事情—— 无比巨大的危机， 不只是外在物质上的危机， 也包括人类意识中的危机。 所以，让我们认真严肃一点，好吗？ 尽管这里的树木是如此的美丽和闪亮。 |
| 9:54 Question 1: For the last seven years, whatever work I have attempted to undertake whether inwardly, psychologically, or externally in the fields of business, finance, education, family and so on, has ended in failure. Anything that I have touched has turned to ashes. What is the cause of this state of affairs and what is the remedy? | 9:54 问题1：在过去的七年里， 无论我尝试去做什么工作 ——不管是内在的、心理上的 还是外在的事情， 比如做生意、理财、教育、家庭 等等， 这些事情全都以失败告终。 我所触碰的任何事情都会完蛋。 造成这种状况的原因是什么， 有什么解决方法吗？ |
| 10:35 For the last seven years, whatever work I have attempted to undertake whether inwardly, psychologically, or externally in the fields of business, finance, education, family and so on, has ended in failure. Anything that I have touched has turned to ashes. What is the cause of this state of affairs and what is the remedy? Are you interested in this question? Are you interested in this question, or is it somebody else's question in which you are not interested, and only interested in your own question? The questioner asks why everything he has touched outwardly, inwardly, has turned into ashes, and what is the cause of it and what is the remedy? It is a rather interesting question if you go into it carefully. | 10:35 在过去的七年里，无论我尝试去做什么工作 ——不管是内在的、心理上的 还是外在的事情， 比如做生意、理财、教育、家庭 等等， 这些事情全都以失败告终。 我所触碰的任何事情都会完蛋。 造成这种状况的原因是什么， 有什么解决方法吗？ 你们对这个问题感兴趣吗？ 你们对它有兴趣吗， 还是说它只是别人的问题 ——所以你们并不感兴趣， 你们只对自己的问题感兴趣？ 提问者问： 为什么他所触碰的每一件事情 ——不管是外在的 还是内在的—— 这些事情都会完蛋， 造成这种情况的原因是什么， 有什么解决方法？ 如果你小心仔细地深入它的话， （你会发现）这是一个相当有趣的问题。 |
| 12:08 We all want to succeed. We worship the god of success or the goddess of success, politically, religiously and in the field of business, science, you all want to be recognised, rewarded, famous. I do not know if you have watched among the scientists the in-fighting that goes on amongst themselves, among the professors, amongst the business people. My family is better than your family – you know, the whole process of the desire to succeed. What is success? Please, I am asking you the question, you have to reply to it. 13:18 You can't all reply, then too much noise, we wouldn't understand each other, but you must respond to that. Why is it that we all seek to be successful? What does successful mean? Answer it inwardly for yourself. To fulfil your desires, to have more money, to be famous, to have the Nobel Prize, and if you can't you are jealous, angry, fighting? So what does success mean? And you are a disciple of some guru – I hope you aren't – if you are, you want to attain, whatever that may mean, you want enlightenment, whatever that may mean. 14:32 It is the same process in the business world, in the psychological world, in the so-called spiritual world, we all want to be successful, to achieve something – why? Why this tremendous urge in the affluent society and in society that is not so? What is the human urge that propels us, drives us to seek success? Please, answer it. | 12:08 我们都想要获得成功。 我们崇拜那个成功之神 或者成功女神， 无论是在政治领域、宗教领域， 还是在商业领域、科学领域， 你们都想要获得认可， 获得奖励， 名扬四海。 我不知道你们是否观察过那些科学家 他们之间相互斗争的情况， 在那些教授之间，那些商界人士之间的斗争。 我这一派要比你这一派更好 ——你们都知道的，这整个渴望成功的过程。 那么什么是「成功」呢？ 请注意，我正在问你们这个问题， 而你们必须要回答它。 13:18 你们不可能所有人都起来回答它， 那样就太吵闹了， 我们也难以理解彼此的意思， 但你们必须要对此作出回应。 为什么我们都会去寻求成功？ 成功是什么意思呢？ 请你在自己内心回答它。 去实现你的渴望， 去拥有更多的金钱， 去变得出名， 去赢得诺贝尔奖， 而如果你无法实现它， 你就会心生嫉妒，变得愤怒，变得好斗？ 所以“成功”是什么意思呢？ 你是某个古鲁的弟子 ——我希望你不是—— 但如果你是弟子，你就会想要“达成”， 不管这个“达成”意味着什么， 你会想要“开悟” ——不管“开悟”是什么意思。 14:32 这是同样的过程 ——这一过程也存在于商业世界中、 存在于心理世界中， 存在于所谓的“灵性世界”中， 我们都想要获得成功， 有所成就 ——为什么呢？ 为什么无论在富裕的社会、 还是在一个不那么富裕的社会， 都会有这种（想要成功的）巨大的冲动欲望？ 那种推动着我们、驱使着我们 去寻求成功的人性的冲动，它是什么呢？ 请你们回答它。 |
| 15:30 Is it that through power, through money, you have freedom and you can enjoy that freedom? Money has become very important, and having no money also becomes important. Power, political power, religious power, the idols that are in the temple with their priests, all that is a form of power. You all want that, power over somebody or other, and all this you call success. You are not so beautiful, you want to be beautiful, and so on and on and on. | 15:30 是不是通过权力和金钱， 你就拥有了自由， 然后你便可以享受那种自由了？ 钱已经变得非常重要了， 而“不拥有钱财”也变得很重要。 权力，政治上的权力、宗教上的权力， 神庙里的那些偶像和神庙的祭司， 所有这些都是某种形式的权力。 你们都想要这些东西， 支配某人的权力， 而你就把所有这些事情称为“成功”。 你并不是那么的美丽，但你想要变得美丽， 等等，等等。 |
| 16:49 Does success depend on comparison? On competition? You are answering, please. In business, every boy wants to be successful in examinations, and so on. What does all that mean, this tremendous urge to be successful, to achieve, to become? Please answer that – to become. I am not this but I will become that. I am poor, I am going to work like blazes and get powerful, money, better position, which is this everlasting struggle to become something. You are an apprentice to a barrister and then you want to be the barrister, you know the game that we all play to become something. 18:32 What is it that is becoming? Please answer this question to yourselves: what is it that is becoming? Your desire to achieve your goal, to achieve a better position, a status – what is it that is becoming, the thing that is becoming? You understand my question? I am nothing but I will become something. What is it that says, I am nothing but I will become something? You understand my question? I am angry, violent, I will become non-violent. That is your game you play. But in the meantime you are sowing the seeds of violence. | 16:49 成功是取决于比较的吗？ 是取决于竞争的吗？ 你们要回答它，拜托了。 在商业世界中， 每一个家伙都想要在考试、 等等之中取得成功。 所有这些意味着什么呢？ 这种想要成功、 想要有所成就、想要成为某人的强烈欲望？ 请回答它——去“成为”某种人。 我不是那号人物，但我将会变成这样的人。 我很穷，所以我要拼命工作， 变得强大，拥有金钱和更好的地位，是吧？ 这就是一种永无止境的 去成为某号人物的奋斗。 你是某个大律师的学徒， 然后你也会想要变成大律师， 你们很清楚这个我们都在玩的 “去成为某号人物”的游戏。 18:32 然而是什么东西在“成为”呢？ 请你们自己来回答这个问题： 是什么东西正在“成为……”？ 你渴望去达到你的目标， 去获得一个更好的地位、身份 ——那么是什么在“成为”呢？ 那个在“成为什么”的东西 是什么呢？ 你们理解我的问题吗？ 我是个无名小卒，但我将会成为某号人物， 那个在说“我是无名小卒， 但我将会变成某个人物”的东西是什么呢？ 你听懂我的问题了吗？ 我很愤怒、我很暴力， 但我将会变成“非暴力”的。 这就是你们在玩的游戏。 然而在此期间，你们却在撒播着暴力的种子。 |
| 20:15 Please, this is important to find out for oneself, what is it that is becoming? Is it desire? If it is desire, to have a car, to have a better house, to have a better wife, more beautiful, more subservient, domestic – so is desire the root of becoming? I am not saying anything against desire so don't withhold it. We are just questioning each other. Is it that desire, seeing a beautiful house, a lovely garden, if you want, if you have ever seen a beautiful house with a lovely garden, a lawn that is kept beautifully without a single weed, and you see it, and you say, 'My God, I wish I had it!' 21:49 That is becoming. Right? So what is desire? You answer that question, please. So I desire to become successful in various fields or in the career I have chosen. I have an object I must have at the end of so many years, of whatever target you have, and you strive after it. If you have not had children, you want children. It is the same thing – desire. Right? The desire to achieve nirvana, desire to achieve illumination, desire to go to America or become a great scientist so that you can win a Nobel Prize, it is the same movement, the becoming. 23:26 So we must enquire not only into one of the facets of becoming, which is desire, and what is desire? Now, I have asked that question, the speaker has asked that question. It remains there. It is in the air. How do you respond to that question? Or do you leave that question to flower, grow, see all the implications of it? You understand? | 20:15 请注意， 亲自去发现这一点是很重要的： 即 是什么东西在“成为”？ 它是「欲望」吗？ 如果它是欲望， 也就是想要拥有一辆汽车， 拥有更好的房子、 更好的妻子 ——那个妻子更加漂亮、更加顺从、 更加会做家务， 所以「欲望」是否就是引发“成为……”的根源？ 我并没有在说任何反对「欲望」的话， 所以不要去抑制你的欲望。 我们只是在彼此询问对方。 是不是那种欲望， 当你看到一座美丽的房子、一个可爱迷人的花园 ——如果你想要这些东西的话， 如果你曾经见过 一座带着可爱迷人花园的漂亮房子， 草坪被打理得很漂亮，上面连一根杂草都没有， 你看到了它，然后你说， “天哪，我希望我也能拥有它！” 21:49 这也是「变成」。对吧？ 所以，什么是「欲望」呢？ 请你来回答这个问题。 因此我会渴望在各种领域中获得成功， 或者在我所选择的事业中获得成功。 我有了一个目标，在多年以后， 我最终必须要实现这个目标， 不管你的目标是什么， 你会努力追求它。 如果你还没有孩子，你就会想要有孩子。 这是同一回事——它们都是「欲望」。 对吧？ 渴望去达到涅槃， 渴望去实现“开悟”， 渴望去美国， 或者成为一名伟大的科学家， 由此你便可以赢得诺贝尔奖， 这是同样的运动 ——也就是那种“成为”。 23:26 所以我们绝不能只是去探询 “成为”的某一个方面 ——也就是欲望， 那么，什么是欲望？ 好了，我已经问了这个问题， 演讲者已经问了这个问题。 这个问题留在了那里。 这个问题“悬而未决”。 那么你要如何去回应那个问题呢？ 还是说，你会让那个问题自己开花、成长， 然后去看到它所有的暗示含义？ 你们理解了吗？ |
| 24:19 You have a map in front of you, a map of this country. If you have a certain spot or certain town you want to go to, you disregard the rest of the map. You have a direction to go to and you pursue that in the map. You never look at the whole of the map because you have only one pursuit, because you want to be successful, you want to achieve. If you don't achieve you are nobody, you are frightened. If you call yourself Ph.D., your family purrs, delighted. If you have a Nobel Prize, all the papers throughout the world – except perhaps behind the Iron Curtain – publish your name, you become famous, rich. 25:50 But it is the same movement whether your desire is for illumination, enlightenment, or for the Nobel Prize, or to be a rich man in a potty little town. Right, sir? So we are asking, what is desire? If one can understand that, not suppress it, not control it, not try to transcend it, like a monk who has a desire only for God, whatever God that may be, and it is the desire to achieve that kingdom that drives him. He still has the fire of desire as you have. So what is desire? Find out, sir. I have put the question. How do you respond to that question? 27:31 Probably you have never even thought about it, you probably never even – I am saying this most respectfully – you never even investigated it. If you have desire you want to fulfil it, with all the problems involved in it. If you are a slightly moral person, you say, I mustn't have that desire, you suppress it. The monks throughout the world have suppressed desires but only identified that desire with a figure, a symbol, an idea, a principle. But it is still desire. So let us ask, the speaker is asking you: what is desire? 28:31 Don't quote me, because then you haven't understood if you quote somebody else. The speaker has talked a great deal about desire and some of you may have read those books, and the word is not the fact, what you read is not what you are. So what is more important is what you are. So, to come back, what is desire? And why is it it has become so extraordinarily vital in our life? | 24:19 你的面前有一张地图， 一张这个国家的地图。 如果你有某个你想要前往的地点或城镇， 你就会忽视掉地图中其余的地方。 你有了自己前进的方向， 然后你便会在地图上追踪它。 你从来不会去看一下这整张地图， 因为你只有一个追求， 因为你想要成功， 你想要有所成就。 如果你没有什么成就， 那你就只是个无名小卒， 你会感到害怕。 而如果你把自己称为“博士”， 你的家人就会感到满意和高兴。 如果你获得了诺贝尔奖， 那么世界各地所有的报纸 ——除了那些也许是在铁幕背后的国家—— 所有的报纸都会公布你的名字， 你会变得很出名、很有钱。 25:50 但这是同样的运动， 不管你所渴望的是开悟、觉悟， 还是渴望诺贝尔奖， 或者渴望在一个不起眼的小城镇里 做个有钱人。 对吧，先生？ 所以我们正在问：什么是「欲望」？ 如果我们可以理解欲望， 不是去压抑它，不去是控制它， 也不试图去超越它， 就像僧侣一样，他们只渴望「神」 ——无论那个“神”是什么东西， 正是这种想要达到天国的欲望 在驱动着他。 他仍旧有着那种欲望之火 ——就像你一样。 所以什么是欲望呢？ 去搞清楚它，先生。 我已经提出了这个问题。 那么你要如何对这个问题作出回应呢？ 27:31 你们或许甚至从未思考过它， 你们或许从来没有 ——我是带着极大的尊敬之情在说这话—— 你们甚至从来没有去探究过它。 如果你有了欲望，你就会想要去实现它， 这其中就包含了所有各种问题。 而如果你是一个稍微有点道德感的人， 你就会说，我绝不能有这种欲望， 你会去压抑这种欲望。 全世界的僧侣都压抑了自己的欲望， 而只将欲望认同于某个神像、 符号、理念、法则。 但这仍然是「欲望」。 所以我们要问了 演讲者要问问你们： 什么是欲望呢？ 28:31 不要引用我的话语， 因为如果你引用别人的话语， 你就并没有了解它。 演讲者已经说了很多关于「欲望」的内容， 而你们中一些人或许已经读过了那些书， 但文字词语并不是「事实」， 你所读到的东西并不是你自己的真实状况。 所以更重要的是你的「真实现状」。 好了，让我们回归主题： 什么是欲望呢？ 欲望为什么 为什么欲望在我们的生活中 会变得如此极度重要呢？ |
| 29:27 Questioner: Is it I want a meaning to my life? | 29:27 提问者：是不是因为 我想要寻求自己生活的意义？ |
| 29:30 K: Beg your pardon? | 29:30 克：能再说一次吗？ |
| 29:31 Q: Is it that I want a meaning to my life that I have a desire? | 29:31 提问者：是不是因为 我想要寻求自己生活的意义， 我才会有欲望？ |
| 29:39 Q: She said that, I want a meaning to my life. | 29:39 提问者：她说的是：我想要自己的生活有意义。 |
| 29:42 K: So you want a meaning to life. Which means you have no meaning to life. Right? You have no meaning, life has no meaning, therefore you try to give, intellectually or another way, to give a meaning to life. So, if you give a meaning to life, it is not life. If you want to give a significance to that tree then you don't know the beauty of the tree. If you want to give significance to your empty life – you may be married, children, all the rest of the business, and you find when you are about forty, fifty, sixty, life has no meaning, then you try to give meaning to it, by going to the temple, literature, playing the violin, painting, anything to escape from what you are. 31:16 Right, sirs? You are talking about your life, not theories, not what other people have said. So what is desire? Come on, sir, look at it. We live by sensation, and sensations are the responses of our senses, and we use only one or two senses, eyesight or hearing. Sensation is our way. One must have sensations otherwise you are paralysed, as most of you are. Paralysed in a country that is going down the hill, paralysed by your gods, by your philosophy, by your way of life. I am not criticising, these are facts. 32:57 So unless you are totally paralysed you have the movement of sensation, senses are operating. When you look at that tree and the beauty of light among the leaves, there is a response, there is a sensation. Right? When you see a beautiful woman you have sensations. When you see a very, very clever man, as most of you are – you are a very clever people, too clever by half, you have explanation for everything, you are good at analysis, explanations. Those analyses, explanations, quotations have nothing to do with your daily life, so there is a wide gap between your theories, religious concepts, philosophical knowledge, has nothing whatever to do with your daily living, and that is why you are all living a life that has no meaning. 34:40 So let's proceed. What is desire? How does desire arise? What is the relationship between desire and thought? Go slowly. I am asking all these questions. Who is the controller who controls desire? And why all religions say you mustn't have desire – more or less, in different terminologies. So unless we understand very deeply the activity of desire, not the objects of desire, not the objects of desire but desire itself. A child may want to be an engine driver or he may want to be a first-class pianist, but it is still desire, and so on. 36:19 We are not concerned with the objects of desire but desire itself. Right? | 29:42 克：所以你们想要找寻生活的意义。 这意味着你们现在的生活并没有什么意义。 对吧？ 你们找不到意义，你的生活并没有意义， 于是你们试图从思想智力上或其他方面赋予 去赋予生活以某种意义。 所以，如果你赋予了生活某种意义， 那它就不是生活了。 如果你想要赋予那棵树以意义， 你就不会知道那棵树的美了。 如果你想要赋予你空虚的生活以某种意义 ——你或许已经结婚了，有孩子， 等等所有这些事情， 然而当你四十岁、五十岁、六十岁的时候， 你却发现 生活并没有什么意义， 于是你试图去给予它某种意义， 你去参拜神庙，阅读各种文学作品， 拉小提琴，画画， 你会去做任何事情 来逃避自己的真实模样。 31:16 对吧，先生们？ 你们正在谈论自己的生活， 不是空谈理论， 也不是别人的说法。 所以什么是「欲望」呢？ 来吧，先生，去看一下它。 我们是依靠感官感觉而生活的， 而这些感官感觉就是我们感官的各种反应， 而我们只使用了一两种感官 ——视觉或者听觉。 感官感觉就是我们的生活方式。 我们必须要有感官感觉，否则的话 你就变成“瘫痪者”了 ——你们大多数人都是“瘫痪者”。 在一个正在走下坡路的国家里， 你们瘫痪了， 因为你们的神明、你们的哲学， 你们的生活方式，你们瘫痪了。 我并没有在批评什么， 这些都是事实。 32:57 所以除非你完全地瘫痪了， 否则你肯定会有感官感觉的活动， 你的感官正在运作着。 当你看着那棵树的时候， 看到树叶间光影交错的美， 你会有一种反应、一种感觉。 是吧？ 当你看到一个美丽的女人，你会很有感觉。 当你看到一个绝顶聪明的人 ——你们大多数人都是“绝顶聪明”的， 你们是非常聪明的民族， 可聪明反被聪明误， 你们可以去解释每一样事物， 你们很擅长于分析和解释。 然而那些分析、解释， 和引用的话语，它们和你的日常生活 是完全没有关系的， 所以在你们的理论、 宗教概念、哲学知识和生活之间 存在着一道鸿沟， 这些东西和你的日常生活是毫不相干的， 这就是为什么你们全都过着一种 毫无意义的生活的原因。 34:40 好了让我们继续下去：什么是「欲望」呢？ 欲望是如何升起的？ 欲望和思想的关系是什么？ 请慢慢来。 我正在询问所有这些问题。 那个在控制欲望的控制者是谁？ 为什么所有的宗教 都在说你绝不能有欲望 ——只是它或多或少 用不同的术语来说罢了。 所以除非我们非常深刻地理解了欲望的活动， 不是欲望的目标， 不是欲望的对象，而是欲望本身。 一个孩子或许想要成为一名火车司机， 或者他可能想要成为一名一流的钢琴家， 但这仍旧是「欲望」，等等。 36:19 我们所关注的并不是欲望的目标对象， 而是欲望本身。 好吧？ |
| 36:38 Q: Desire and survival are inseparable. | 36:38 提问者：欲望和生存是密不可分的。 |
| 36:43 K: Desire and survival are inseparable. What is it to survive? What does it mean to survive? Survive physically? If you want to survive physically and be secure physically you must have no nationalities, because tribalism, which is glorified nationalism, is destroying the world. Right? Ideals, ideologies of Russia and the ideologies of the democratic world are destroying humanity. So there is no security. You are not surviving. The danger is there but you are blind to it because you say nationalism is security. 37:56 So security, survival, has a meaning only when you don't belong to any country, to any group, to any religion. Then you are a strong person both biologically as well as psychologically. You are a free human being and you might help to prevent the stupidities of politicians and the voters. So let's proceed. What is desire? What is the origin, the beginning of desire? I see you. There is the seeing of the colour of that sari or that shirt, the seeing with the eye, visual perception, and there is a sensation, which is: I don't like that colour but I like that colour. 39:27 You are following this? Seeing, from which arises a sensation, then I contact the sari or the shirt, contact in the sense touch it, sensation, contact, and from that contact greater sensation. Which is, I see a beautiful shirt in the window or a sari or whatever you want, seeing then going inside and touching the material and from that touching greater sensation. Right? You are following this? Don't you do this ordinarily in your daily life? | 36:43 克：欲望和生存是密不可分的。 是什么东西要生存下去？ “生存”是什么意思呢？ 是身体的存活吗？ 如果你想要的是肉体上的存活， 获得身体上的安全， 你就必须没有国籍， 因为部落主义 ——它被美化为国家主义—— 正在摧毁这个世界。 对吧？ 各种理想，俄罗斯的意识形态， 以及民主世界的意识形态， 它正在摧毁人类。 所以并不存在什么「安全」。 你们很难生存下去。 危险就在那里，对吧？ 但你们却视而不见， 因为你们说国家主义就是安全。 37:56 所以安全、生存 只有当你们不再属于任何国家、 任何团体、任何宗教的时候 ——安全、生存才会有意义。 那时你就是一个强壮之人 ——无论是在生理上，还是在心理上。 你成了一个「自由之人」。 而那时你也许就可以帮助去阻止那些政客 和选民的愚蠢了。 好了，让我们继续讲下去： 什么是欲望？ 欲望的起源、欲望的起点是什么？ 我看到了你。 我看到了 你身穿的纱丽或衬衫的颜色， 我用眼睛看到了它， 这是一种视觉上的感知， 然后我又有了某种感觉， 也就是：我并不喜欢那个颜色， 我喜欢的是另一个颜色。对吧？ 39:27 你们跟上它了吗？ 先是“看到”，从这种“看到”之中就产生出了感觉， 然后我去接触那件纱丽或衬衫， 这里“接触”的意思是：去触摸它， 对吧？ 感觉它、触碰它，是吧？ 而经由这种接触，我就会有更强烈的感觉。 也就是：我看到橱窗里有一件美丽的衬衫， 或者一件纱丽，或者无论什么你想要的东西， 你看到了它，然后你走进了商店， 去触摸它的布料， 而通过这种触摸，就产生了更强烈的感觉。 对吧？ 你们跟上它了吗？ 在你们的日常生活中， 你们通常不也是这样做的吗？ |
| 40:40 Q: Yes. | 40:40 提问者：的确如此。 |
| 40:41 K: That is what you are doing – seeing, contact and greater sensation. Now, what happens after that? No, I am asking you the question – think it out. Sir, think it out, go into it carefully. I see that beautiful house. The seeing creates a sensation. If I am a friend of that house I go inside, look at the walls, look at the shape of the windows. All that is a sensation. Then what takes place? | 40:41 克：这就是你们在做的事 ——看到、接触，然后有了更强烈的感觉。 那么，在这之后又会发生什么呢？ 不，我正在问你们问题 ——请你们仔细考虑一下它。 先生，好好去想一下， 小心仔细地去深入探究它。 我看到了那座美丽的房子。 这种“看到”引发了某种感觉。 如果我是那户人家的朋友， 我就会走进房子里，我会欣赏它的墙壁， 欣赏那些窗户的形状。 所有这些都是一种感觉。 然后会发生什么呢？ |
| 41:47 Q: I want to have it. | 41:47 提问者：我也想要拥有这样一座房子。 |
| 41:50 K: Yes, that is sensation. | 41:50 克：是的，这也是我的感觉。 |
| 41:54 K: I am asking – please do pay a little attention if you are interested in it. We must have sensations, otherwise you are biologically, physically paralysed. If your arm doesn't feel then that arm is paralysed. So there must be sensation. That is a natural, healthy state. If I ask you a question and if you are actively mentally aware you respond to it. But if you are tired, sleepy, lazy, or burdened with philosophy, burdened with other people's sayings, then you can't respond. You will say what other people have said. So there is the seeing, contact, sensation. This is natural, healthy. Then what takes place? It is all so rapid, so instantaneous, so we are slowing it down. Then what takes place? | 41:54 克：我在问的是 ——请稍微集中一下注意力， 如果你对此感兴趣的话。 我们必须要有各种感官感觉， 否则的话，你从生理上来说、 从身体上来说就已经瘫痪了。 如果你的手臂没有知觉了， 那这条手臂就已经瘫痪了。 所以，我们必须要有感官感觉。 这是一种自然的、健康的状态。 如果我问了你一个问题， 而你内心积极主动地感知意识到了它， 你就会对它作出反应。 但如果你是疲劳的、昏昏欲睡的、懒惰的， 或者背负着哲学知识的重担， 背负着其他人的各种名言警句， 那你就无法作出（自己的）反应了。 你只会说那些别人说过的东西。 是吧？ 所以，存在着这种 看到、接触， 然后感觉升起的过程。 对吧？ 这是自然的、健康的。 然后会发生什么呢？ 这一切全都是如此的迅速， 瞬间就完成了， 所以我们把它放慢速度。 接着会发生什么呢？ |
| 43:35 Q: The sensation is registered in the brain. | 43:35 提问者：这种感觉在大脑中被记录下来了。 |
| 43:41 K: Yes sir, Of course. Then what? Don't go into great explanations. We have made a very simple statement. | 43:41 克：是的，先生，当然如此了。 然后呢？ 不要去讲那些宏大复杂的解释。 我们的表述是很简单的。 |
| 43:54 Q: But after, that brain is refreshed. | 43:54 提问者：在那之后，大脑就会焕然一新。 |
| 43:56 K: No sir, just look at it before you answer it. I must go on otherwise you will throw lots of words at me. I see that house, the seeing, touching the marble, looking at the pillars, looking at the good windows, and that is sensation. Then what takes place? Then thought comes in and says, 'How nice it would be if I had that house.' See what takes place. Then thought uses the sensation. And thought is also another sensation. Thought creates the image, my image that I must have that house. That is, sensation, then thought instantly creates the image of me living in that house. 45:26 Have you understood it? Have you understood something? That is, thought takes charge of the sensation and out of that sensation create the image, and the image is owning that house or that car or that something or other. You have followed this? So, watch it carefully. Sensation is healthy, normal, then thought comes along and says, out of that sensation creates the image. And when thought shapes the sensation, at that second desire is born. Don't agree, don't say, yes, that is a good explanation. Now, if you don't shake your head in agreement then why are you a slave to desires? 47:19 Right? You are too quick to agree with anything that is said. But I am pointing out most respectfully that we are always trained to control, suppress, transcend, escape in various forms from desire. Have you noticed the sannyasis in this country and the monks in Europe, especially in Italy? They are walking down the street and they have the Bible and never look around because of temptation. So, book. And the sannyasis in this country, I have followed many of them, behind them, they are chanting something or other, never look at the beauty of the earth, the flowers, the streams, the sky, the passing woman – but, 'don't be tempted. ' Right? 48:49 So, I am asking you a question: sensation is right, natural, healthy. Can thought not interfere? When thought takes charge of sensation, at that second desire is born. You understand this? Sensation is natural, and a gap when thought doesn't interfere. You understand what I am saying? So can thought abstain for a few seconds? That means tremendous awareness, great attention. Don't say: what is attention, what is awareness, go off into some explanation. | 43:56 克：不，先生，请先好好看一下它， 然后再作出回答。 我必须得讲下去了，否则的话， 你们又会扔一大堆话过来了。 我看到了那座房子， 我看到了它，我抚摸它的大理石， 我欣赏它的柱子， 欣赏那些精美的窗户， 这就是感官感觉。 然后会发生什么呢？ 然后思想便介入进来然后说， “要是我能拥有那座房子，那该有多好啊。 ” 看看发生了什么吧。 那时思想就会利用那种感觉。 而思想同样也是另一种感觉。 思想创造出了那个意象， 我的意象：即我必须要拥有那座房子。 对吧？你们明白了吗？ 也就是说，先是有了感觉， 然后思想立即说 立即创造出了一个意象： 即 我住在那座房子里。 45:26 你们理解它了吗？ 你们是否已经了解了一些东西？ 换句话说，思想“接管”了那个感觉， 然后经由这种感觉而创造出了意象， 而那个意象就是：我拥有那座房子， 拥有那辆汽车，或者拥有某个事物。 你们跟上它了吗？ 所以，请小心地来观察它。 感官感觉是健康的、正常的东西， 然而思想过来了，它说 经由这种感官感觉，它创造出了意象。 而当思想去塑造那个感觉， 就在那一瞬间，欲望便产生了。 请不要同意， 请不要说：是的，这是一个很好的解释。 你瞧，如果你们没有点头表示同意， 为什么你们还会成为欲望的奴隶呢？ 47:19 对吧？ 你们太急于去同意对方所说的任何东西了。 但我只是无比尊敬地指出了这一点： 那就是我们一直以来都被培养训练着 去控制、压抑、超越 欲望， 用各种方式逃避欲望。 你是否曾经注意过这个国家里的托钵僧， 和欧洲的僧侣——尤其是意大利的僧侣？ 他们走在大街上，手上捧着《圣经》， 他们从来不会四处张望，因为会有诱惑他们的东西。 所以，他们只是捧着圣书。 而至于这个国家里的托钵僧， 我曾经跟踪过很多托钵僧 ——我走在他们后面， 他们口中会唱诵着一些东西， 他们从来不去看这个地球的美， 从来不去看那些花儿、小溪、天空， 以及路过的女人 ——而是，“不要被诱惑”。 对吧？ 48:49 所以，我正在询问你们一个问题： 感官感觉是正常的、自然的、健康的。 那么思想能否不要介入进来？ 因为当思想“接管”了感觉， 在那一刻，欲望就产生了。 你们理解这一点了吗？ 如果可以的话，请你们去发现它 感官感觉是自然的，当思想不介入进来， 它就会有一段「间隔期」。 你们理解我在说的东西吗？ 所以思想能够暂停几秒钟吗？ 这意味着强烈的觉察、 强烈的「注意」。 不要问：什么是「注意」？ 什么是「觉察」？ 然后开始进行某种解释。 |
| 50:10 To see sensation is natural, and discover for yourself that the moment thought takes charge of the sensation, at that second desire is born – I want that house or that woman or that something or other. Right? To be aware, to pay attention so that thought doesn't take charge of sensation. That is timeless. I won't go into all that. You have never thought about all this. you are all grown-up people. You have ashes on your head, go to temples, and all kinds of childish stuff, and you haven't even gone into yourself, you have never even thought to ask these questions. So, discipline is not the end of desire. 51:37 Discipline itself becomes desire. Right? But if you learn what is desire, learn, not from the speaker, from yourself, understand, investigate, go into it, then it is yours, you are learning. There was a great Spanish painter. He was 95 or more or less – Goya – he said, 'I am still learning. ' You understand? So learning is everlasting but knowledge is not, knowledge is limited, finite. But you are learning. So if one learns, not learn about desire but if you are learning the meaning of desire, what is involved in it, how it arises, keep on learning, then that very learning brings its own discipline. 53:04 If you want to be a good chemist, good biologist, that very subject becomes the means of training, of discipline. You don't know any of these things. Where do you all live? Not in Triplicane, Madras or around here – where do you live? If life has no meaning and all the temples are full of things made by hand and by the mind, which you are worshipping, all this has no meaning at all anymore. So please ask this question of yourself: why life, which is an extraordinary thing, great complexity, great depth and great beauty, why that life has become so shoddy. | 50:10 而是要看到感官感觉是自然的， 然后亲自去发现这一点： 即一旦思想接管了感官感觉， 在那一刻，欲望便产生了 ——我想要那座房子或那个女人， 或者某个别的什么东西。 对吧？ 所以你要有所觉察， 去注意到它，这样思想就不会接管感官感觉了。 而这就是「永恒」，我就不深入讲下去了。 你们从来没有去思考过这一切。 你们全都是成年人了。 可你们还在头上涂抹骨灰，去参拜神庙， 所有各种幼稚的事情， 你甚至都没有去探究一下你自己， 你甚至从来没有想过要去询问这些问题。 所以，「戒律约束」并不是欲望的终点。 51:37 而是「戒律约束」本身变成了那个欲望。 对吧？ 但如果你在学习…… 了解什么是欲望，去学习 不是从演讲者这里学习，而是从你自己身上学习， 去了解它，去探究它，去深入它， 那么这份了解就是属于你的， 你在不断地学习着。 曾经有一位伟大的西班牙画家。 他已经九十五岁高龄了，或者差不多九十五岁了 ——他名叫戈雅， 但他说，“我仍旧在学习着”。 你们理解了吗？ 所以学习是永久性的， 然而「知识」并不是， 知识是局限的、有限的东西。 但你正在学习着。 所以，如果一个人在学习， 不是学习关于欲望的东西， 而是如果你正在学习了解 欲望的含义， 它所包含的东西，它是如何升起的， 持续不断地学习着， 那么这种学习本身 就会带来其自身的“戒律约束”。 53:04 如果你想要成为一名优秀的化学家、 一名优秀的生物学家， 那么这个起因本身 就会变成培养训练的手段， 变成戒律约束的手段。 你们对这些事情一无所知。 你们都是生活在哪里的？ 不是在特里普利坎、马德拉斯 或者这附近的某个地方 ——而是 你们是活在什么之中的？ 如果生活没有意义， 所有的神庙中都只是充斥着 那些由双手和头脑所制造出来的东西 ——你们会崇拜这些东西， 所有这一切都已经 不再具有任何意义了。 所以请问问你自己这个问题： 为什么生活——这个非凡的事物， 这个无比复杂、无比深刻、 无比美丽的事物， 为什么生活会变得如此卑劣。 |
| 54:38 Question 2: We are unable to see the crises in our lives with all our senses – as you put it. Consequently we are in endless misery. How can we gather our entire energy and see 'what is'? | 54:38 问题2：我们无法看到我们生活中的危机 就如你所说的——用我们全部的感官去看到它。 而结果就是，我们陷入于无尽的苦难中。 我们如何才能够聚集起 我们全部的能量，去看到“真实现状”呢？ |
| 54:58 We are unable to see the crises in our lives with all our senses – as you put it. Consequently we are in endless misery, and how can we gather our entire energy to see 'what is'? This is the question. You have understood the question? Why do you say, 'as you put it'? Why are you concerned what the speaker has said? You understand? What is important is what you think, what you feel. Burn all the books including the speaker's, and look. 56:18 The question is: we have crises in our lives and we are unable to solve them or meet them correctly and so we are in endless misery. How can we gather this tremendous energy necessary to meet this crisis? That is the question. Where is the crisis? Crisis economically, socially, politically, religiously – is it out there or in us? Where is the crisis? Tell me. We like to think crisis is out there. | 54:58 我们无法看到我们生活中的危机 就如你所说的——用我们全部的感官去看到它。 就如演讲者所说的 而结果就是，我们陷入于无尽的苦难中。 我们如何才能够聚集起 我们全部的能量，去看到“真实现状”呢？ 问题就是如此。 你们听明白这个问题了吗？ 为什么你要说，“就如你所说的……” 为什么你要关心演讲者说了些什么呢？ 你们理解了吗？ 重要的是你的想法、你的感受。 请烧掉所有的书本 ——包括演讲者的书—— 然后自己去看。 56:18 这个问题是： 我们的生活中有着各种危机， 而我们无法去解决它们，或者正确地去面对它们， 由此我们陷入于无尽的苦难中。 我们要如何才能够聚集起 那种必不可少的巨大能量， 从而去面对这种危机呢？ 就是这个问题。 危机在哪里呢？ 经济上的危机、社会中的危机、 政治上的危机、宗教领域的危机 ——危机是在我们之外的吗，还是存在于我们内心的？ 危机在哪里呢？ 请你们告诉我。 我们喜欢认为危机是存在于外部世界中的。 |
| 57:30 Q: The crisis is only in our mind – I think so. | 57:30 提问者：危机只存在于我们内心 ——我也是这么想的。 |
| 57:34 K: Yes sir, that is in your own consciousness, in your own being, first. Is that so? You understand? We say no, it is not out there – so where is it? If it isn't out there it must be in you. Therefore you are the crisis. Right? Do you accept that? You as a human being are the real crisis, not politics, not war, not the crisis in business or in technology or in chemistry, but you as a human being are the crisis. | 57:34 克：是的，先生，也就是说： 危机存在于你们自己的意识中， 它首先是在你自身的存在中。 是这样吧？ 你们理解了吗？ 我们说“不”，危机并不存在于那里 ——那么，危机在哪里呢？ 如果它不在那里， 它就必然存在于你自己身上。 因此，你就是那个危机。 对吧？ 你们接受这一点吗？ 你作为人类的一员，你才是真正的危机所在， 不是政治危机、不是战争危机、 不是商业危机， 也不是科技危机 或 化学领域的危机， 而是作为人类的你，你就是那个危机。 |
| 58:42 Q: There is a crisis that existed, sir. | 58:42 提问者：现实的危机确实存在，先生。 |
| 58:47 K: Have you listened to what I said, sir? I am not trying to suppress you, sir. I asked you a question, which is: is the crisis in you or in the world outside there? If it is in you, you are the crisis. See that, for God's sake. Human beings are the crisis. What, sir? | 58:47 克：你有听我刚才说的话吗，先生？ 我并没有在试图压制你发言，先生。 我问了你一个问题， 也就是：危机是存在于你身上的， 还是存在于外部世界中的？ 如果它存在于你身上， 那你就是那个危机。 看在上帝的份上，请看到这一点。 人类才是危机所在。 你说什么，先生？ |
| 59:35 Q: The absence of human beings will solve the crisis. | 59:35 提问者：当人类不存在了，危机也就解决了。 |
| 59:39 K: Absence of human beings. It is a clever remark. You are not facing the fact. What am I to do, sirs? The crisis is both in the world and in us. The crisis in the world, we have created it. So it is a crisis outwardly and inwardly. And the outer crisis is the product of human beings, the result of politicians who represent the voters. Not in the communist world, totalitarian world, in the democratic world the crisis is created by every human being in electing their presidents, their prime ministers, their chief ministers, and so on, so on, so on. 1:01:09 So you as a human being are responsible for the immense crisis that we are facing. You may not want to look at it. You say, 'No, no, it is happening somehow, I am not responsible for it.' But each one of us is responsible for it. Right? Do you see the fact of it? Do you see the truth of it? Do you? If you don't, the speaker can't do anything about it. But if you do, let's talk about it, let us investigate it, not taking sides. Which means, to investigate it you cannot have any prejudice, any bias, any opinion. | 59:39 克：人类不存在了。 这是一句抖机灵的话， 你并没有在面对这个事实。 我该怎么做呢，先生们？ 危机既存在于这个世界中， 也存在于我们内心。 这个世界上存在着危机， 但却是我们制造了这种危机。 所以它既是外在的危机 也是内在的危机。 而外在的危机是人类自身的产物， 它是那些政客导致的结果 ——而政客是选民们的代表。 不是在共产主义的世界里， 不是在极权主义的世界里， 在民主世界中，危机是由每一个人 自己创造出来的， 因为是他们选举出了 他们的总统、他们的首相、 他们的首席部长，等等 等等。 1:01:09 所以你作为人类的一员， 对于我们正面临着的巨大的危机， 你是负有责任的。 你或许并不想去看到这一点。 你会说，“不，不对，它（危机）不知怎么地就发生了， 这并不是我的责任。 ” 然而我们每个人都要对它负责。 对吧？ 你是否看到了这个事实？ 你是否看到了这个真相？ 你看到了吗？ 如果你没有看到，那演讲者对此也无能为力了。 但如果你看到了，那就让我们来谈谈它吧， 让我们来探究一下它，但不要偏袒任何一方。 这意味着，要探究它， 你就不能有任何偏见、 任何成见、任何观点。 |
| 1:02:32 A brain must be free of its prejudices to understand, to investigate. If the scientist is exploring matter he cannot have preconceptions about it, he cannot have some conclusions about it. If he has, then his conclusions interfere with his investigation. Right? So he must be free from conclusion to find out what is matter. | 1:02:32 大脑必须摆脱掉它的偏见，由此才能去了解、 去探究。 如果科学家正在探索研究某种物质， 那他就不能对这种物质有先入之见， 他不能对它有某些定论。 如果他有了结论，那他的结论就会 干扰他的科学研究。 对吧？ 所以他必须摆脱掉结论， 由此才能去发现那种物质是什么。 |
| 1:03:18 So we must see the crisis is in us. We have made this world, not the nature, not the tree, thank God, not the tiger, not the deer, but we have made the social world, the world in which we live, competition, all that is going on in the world. So the society in which we live is created by us. That society cannot be changed by legislation, by more and more and more laws, more and more lawyers, more and more better politicians. 1:04:14 That society can be changed only by each one of us radically changing. That is a fact. If you don't want to change society, if you want to remain as you are, you are perfectly welcome. I am not inviting you. That is what you are going to do when you leave this place. You may all shake your head and agree and say how marvellous everything is, but moment you step out of the gate you are back in your old world. | 1:03:18 因此，我们必须要看到 那个危机是存在于我们自己身上的。 是我们创造出了这个世界， 但其中不包括大自然、 不包括那些树木——谢天谢地， 也不包括老虎或者鹿， 但我们已经创造出了这个社会世界， 这个我们所生活于其中的世界： 充满了竞争，以及所有那些世界上 正在发生的事情。 所以我们所生活于其中的这个社会， 它是我们所创造出来的。 这样的社会是无法通过立法、 通过越来越多的法律、 越来越多的律师、 越来越多更优秀的政治家而有所改变的。 1:04:14 要这个社会改变， 只有当我们每个人 彻底转变了自己以后才行。 这是事实。 如果你不想要改变社会， 如果你想要继续保持老样子， 我觉得这也完全没问题。 我并没有在邀请你。 当你们离开了这个地方，你们就会这么去做。 你们现在或许都会点头表示同意， 说：你所说的一切真是好极了， 然而一旦你走出了那扇大门， 你就又会回到老样子了。 |
| 1:04:57 So the question is: what will make you change? You have suffered endlessly, you have had problems upon problems, pain upon pain, conflict, endless – what will make you change all that? More reward, more punishment, more hell and more heaven? All that has been offered before but you haven't changed. I know you smile, I know you say, 'Yes, that is so.' So what will you do to change? So you ask: tell me, how am I to change? Which means what? You want a system 1:06:03 to help you to change. Right? Have you noticed that all systems, all systems, whether democratic system, communist system, a religious system, the system of meditation, inherently contain in themselves degeneration? Right? Have you noticed this? All systems – don't say, my system is different – all systems contain in themselves a wastage of energy, which is entropy. We are using a scientific word. | 1:04:57 所以我们的问题是： 什么东西可以让你改变？ 你们已经受过苦了 ——无尽的苦难， 你们有着一堆又一堆的问题， 一个又一个的痛苦，冲突永无止境 ——什么东西才能让你改变所有这一切呢？ 更多的奖励，更多的惩罚吗？ 更多的地狱，更多的天堂吗？ 所有这些东西此前已经提供给你们过了， 然而你们却还是没有改变。 我知道你会笑， 我知道你会说，“是的，的确如此。 ” 所以你会做些什么来改变呢？ 于是你就会问：请告诉我，我要如何才能改变？ 而这意味着什么呢？你想要一个体系 1:06:03 来帮助你改变。对吧？ 你是否注意到所有的体系， 是所有的体系 不管它是民主的体系、共产主义的体系、 宗教体系还是冥想体系， 这些体系自身之中就包含着堕落衰退。 对吧？ 你注意到这点了吗？ 所有的体系 ——请不要说：我的体系是不一样的—— 所有的体系自身之中都包含了 能量的损耗浪费，这就是「熵」。 我们在这里使用了一个科学名词。 |
| 1:06:55 So the question is: how to gather – not how – is it possible to gather all your energy and face something? You aren't getting tired? I see people yawning – sorry. If you are tired, I'll stop. I don't mind. I am not insulted. If you are interested we will go on, go on with your questioning, not just let me talk and you just shake your head, question back and forth. In what manner can I gather this energy which I am wasting, not sexually only, energy which I need to face this crisis which I have created? 1:08:18 You understand? And the questioner quotes the speaker, saying that we must use all our senses. Now we are going to discuss that a little. Question and answer, I don't tell you and you don't tell me, we are questioning each other. So there is no authority, there is no disciple, there is no follower, we are questioning each other. We use only partially our senses. Right? That is a fact. Either you hear only with your ears, but you don't listen. See the difference? 1:09:21 I hear what you are saying but I don't listen to the depth of what you are saying. Which is, I listen and the very listening is bringing a change. But if I merely hear, it is passing wind, words. So we use partially our senses, we never use all our senses at the same moment. Right? Have you noticed this? Oh, for God's sake. We never use all our senses, which means we are never completely attentive, completely giving all our attention – which I am doing now and you are not doing it. 1:10:30 You understand? That is, when I use all my senses, when I look at something, there is that marvellous sea, wave upon wave, the blue waters. If you look at that sea with all your senses, there is no centre as the 'me' looking. I wonder if you understand. It is only when partial senses are operating there is the sense of the 'me'. Have you noticed that? | 1:06:55 所以，我们的问题是： 如何聚集起——不是“如何……”—— 而是：你是否可能聚集起 你全部的能量去面对某个事物？ 提问者问：用什么样的方式…… 你们是不是有点累了？ 我看到有人在打哈欠了——不好意思。 如果你们感到累了，那我就不讲了。 我并不介意。 我也不会有被冒犯的感觉。 但如果你们有兴趣，那我们就继续讲， 继续你们的提问， 不只是让我一个人讲，然后你们只是点头， 而是彼此互相提问。 我要以何种方式才能够聚集起这些 我正在浪费的能量， 不只是性方面的能量，而是那种我所需要的、 用来面对这种危机的能量 ——这种危机是我自己创造出来的。 1:08:18 你们听懂了吗？ 然后这位提问者引用了演讲者的话， 说 我们必须要运用所有的感官。 现在，我们将会稍微来讨论一下这点。 提问和回答，并不是我在告诉你， 也不是你在告诉我， 而是我们正在彼此互相发问。 所以这里并不存在什么权威， 并不存在弟子，也不存在追随者， 我们正在彼此相互提问。 我们只使用了我们部分的感官。 对吧？ 这是事实。 要么你们只是用自己的耳朵去听， 这样你们就不会听进去。 是吧？ 看到这其中的区别了吗？ 1:09:21 我听到了你在说的东西， 但我并没有聆听到你话语中的深层含义。 也就是说：我在聆听，而这种聆听本身 就会带来改变。 但如果我只是随便听听， 那它就成了耳旁风，一些文字词语而已。 所以我们只是运用了我们部分的感官， 我们从来没有在同一时刻 使用我们全部的感官。 对吧？ 你们注意到这点了吗？ 噢，看在上帝的份上。 我们从来没有动用我们所有的感官， 这意味着我们从来没有完全彻底地去「注意」， 保持全神贯注的状态 ——我现在就在这么做，而你们并没有这么做。 1:10:30 你们理解了吗？ 也就是说，当我动用我所有的感官， 当我去看某个事物时， 那里有一片无比美好的大海， 海浪阵阵，海水碧蓝。 而如果你运用你所有的感官 去看那个大海的话， 那时就不存在一个在观察大海的 “我”的中心了。 我不知道你们是否听懂了。 对吧，先生？ 只有当仅仅只有部分的感官在运作时， 才会有“我”的感觉。 你们注意到这点了吗？ |
| 1:11:21 Q: Sir, can all your senses listen to the birds' noise, the birds' sound, can all your senses listen to it? | 1:11:21 提问者：先生，你能用你所有的感官 去聆听鸟儿的嘈杂声 鸟儿的鸣叫声吗？ 难道你所有的感官都可以去聆听它吗？ |
| 1:11:29 K: I am. I am listening to you with all my senses. | 1:11:29 克：我可以。我正在用我所有的感官 聆听着你的话语。先生，我正在问你 |
| 1:11:33 Q: Can you see the sound? You said all the senses. | 1:11:33 提问者：可你能够“看到”鸣叫声吗？ 因为你说的是“所有的感官”。 |
| 1:11:38 K: You have said something: Can you listen to that bird attentively? Are you listening to that crow attentively? | 1:11:38 克：你发表了一些观点： 可你能够用全部的注意力 去聆听那只鸟儿吗？ 你正在用全部的注意力 聆听那只乌鸦吗？ |
| 1:11:48 Q: Yes, sir. | 1:11:48 提问者：好吧，先生。 |
| 1:11:52 K: What does that mean? | 1:11:52 克：那么这种聆听意味着什么呢？ 提问者：它应该意味着什么？ |
| 1:11:52 Q: What should it mean? | 1:11:52 克：我必须得继续讲下去了。 你瞧，你都有点消沉了。 |
| 1:11:57 K: I must go on. You see, you get dissipated. I am just asking you, most respectfully, have you ever looked at anything with all your senses? You have never done it. What, sir? | 1:11:57 我只是在无比尊敬地问你： 你是否曾经运用你所有的感官 去观察过任何事物？ 你从来没有这么做过。 你说什么，先生？ |
| 1:12:31 Q: They seem to think, when we are looking at something we are also hearing it and feeling it and all that. | 1:12:31 提问者：他们似乎认为， 当我们在观察某个事物时， 我们同样也在聆听它、感觉它，等等。 |
| 1:12:38 K: Sir, please, just listen. I have put a question, which is, have you listened or seen or felt with all your senses? Find out. I am not saying you have or you have not. I say discover for yourself what it means to listen to that crow, to listen to your wife, which is much more important than the crow, listen to your husband, and listen with all your energy, which means all your senses alert. Not sexual senses, not merely the sensory responses but the whole totality of your energy. One has probably never done it. I am not criticising, I am not telling you you have not done it, but probably you have not done it. 1:14:03 And if you do it then you will discover something extraordinary for yourself, that for that moment there is completely no problem, no conflict, because you are so tremendously alive, tremendously attentive. It is only not being able to attend that creates the problem. But if you are attentive to what you say, to what you think and see the division between your thinking and your action – say one thing and do another, which you are all so beautifully trained. | 1:12:38 克：先生，拜托了，请听好。 我提出了一个问题 也就是：你是否曾经用你所有的感官 去聆听、去观察， 或者去感觉某个事物呢？ 去把它搞清楚。 我并没有说你这样做过 或者你没有这样做过。 我说的是：请你自己去发现它， 去搞清楚 聆听那只乌鸦…… 这意味着什么？ 或者聆听你的妻子 ——你的妻子远远要比那只乌鸦重要， 或者聆听你的丈夫， 用你全部的能量去聆听， 这意味着你所有的感官都是警醒的。 不是性方面的感觉， 不仅仅是各种感官上的反应， 而是你所有的、全部的能量。 你们可能从来没有这么做过。 我并没有在批评，我并没有断言说 你没有这么做过， 只是说你可能没有这么做过。 1:14:03 而如果你曾经这么做过， 那你就可以亲自去发现 某些非凡的事物了， 而在那个时刻，是完全没有任何问题的， 也没有冲突， 因为你是如此极度的活跃， 高度地「注意」。 只有当你无法这样去「注意」时 才会制造出问题。 但如果你注意到了自己所说的话， 自己所想的东西， 并且看到了你的想法 和你的行动之间的割裂 ——说一套 做一套， 在这方面，你们都被培养训练得很出色。 |
| 1:15:12 Q: A man has been starving for many days. Is it possible for him to put all his senses? | 1:15:12 提问者：如果一个人已经饿了很多天了。 那么他还可能去使用他全部的感官吗？ |
| 1:15:19 K: Of course not, sir. Don't bother about the man who has not had enough food. That is a wastage of energy, this is talk about a man who has had no food for three days, whereas you are the crisis, not that poor chap. So, first discover for yourself how we waste our energy, chattering, endless chattering, talking endlessly about Gita, philosophy, what the Buddha said, and the counter, chattering, chattering, chattering, quarrelling, conflict, struggling – all that is wastage of energy. 1:16:33 When all that stops you have a tremendous energy, and the brain becomes extraordinarily alive, not dead. And so to have this tremendous energy, which is to have passion, not lust, passion, you require a great deal of enquiry, not separate action from what you think and what you feel, so that we live a life that is healthy, sane, normal, and go beyond that. Sorry. | 1:15:19 克：当然不能了，先生。 请不要去操心那个吃不饱饭的人了。 这是在浪费能量， 你说有一个人已经三天没有吃东西了， 然而你才是那个危机，而不是那个可怜的家伙。 所以，先生，首先你要自己去发现 我们是如何浪费自己的能量的， 喋喋不休，永无止境地喋喋不休， 没完没了地谈论《薄伽梵歌》、 谈论哲学、谈论佛陀说的话， 以及驳斥佛陀的话， 喋喋不休，喋喋不休， 争论， 冲突， 斗争——所有这些都是在浪费能量。 1:16:33 而当所有这些事情都停止了， 你就会拥有巨大惊人的能量， 于是大脑就会变得极其活跃， 不再死气沉沉了。 所以，要拥有这种巨大惊人的能量， 也就是拥有那种「热情」 ——不是感官欲望——而是热情， 你就需要进行大量的探询， 不要让你的行动和 你的思想与感受 彼此割裂， 由此我们便能过上一种 健康的、心智健全的、正常的生活， 然后再去超越这种生活。 很抱歉讲了这么久。 |
