Krishnamurti Subtitles
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MA8384T1 - 我们能否从根本上带来一次我们内在的转变？
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| 0:18 Krishnamurti: I would like to point out, this is not an entertainment. This is not a lecture either. A lecture is intended to convey information on a particular subject, to be informed about it. So this is not a lecture but a conversation between us, friendly, serious, and if it is possible to communicate with each other deeply and go, if we can together, for a long journey, a journey that covers, we hope, the entire human status, not of a particular country or a particular group of people or community, nor are we concerned with any particular philosophy. 1:54 And if one is waiting to be instructed, informed, told what to do, I am afraid you will be disappointed. So together we are going to take a very long journey, not only outwardly in the physical world but also in the psychological world, in the world that lies inside us, inside this skin as it were, a world that few of us have taken seriously or gone into it very, very deeply. So together, bearing in mind that we are not giving a lecture nor a sermon I hope, so don't get bored with it. And also, one would like to point out that in listening to someone, as to the speaker, one has to listen not only with the hearing of the ear but also listen. 3:33 And that is an art, to listen to somebody freely, intelligently, without any interpretation, without any conclusion, but as two friends talking over together not only about the world situation but also about their own problems, their own behaviour, their own ways of thinking, their prejudices, opinions, conclusions. So, one hopes that you will so listen, not only to the network of words but also to the deeper issues of life. | 0:18 克里希那穆提（以下简称“克”）：我想要指出的是： 这并不是一次娱乐活动。 这也不是一次讲课。 「讲课」的意图是传达 关于某个主题的信息， 去告知听众这些信息。 所以这并不是一次讲课， 而是一次我们彼此间的交谈， 友好而认真的交谈， 来看看我们是否可能彼此深入地交流， 以及我们是否可以一起去踏上一段漫长的旅程， 而我们希望这段旅程能够涵盖 整个人类的状况 ——不是某个国家的状况、 或者某个民族或社会群体的状况， 我们也不关心任何特定的哲学体系。 1:54 而如果你正在等待接受教导、 等待被告知，让别人来告诉你该怎么做， 我恐怕你将会感到失望。 所以我们将要一起来 踏上一段非常漫长的旅程， 不只是外在的旅程 ——外部物质世界的旅程， 也包括心理世界的旅程， 那个存在于我们内在的世界， 或者说是 我们“体内”的世界， 然而我们中很少有人 认真对待这个世界， 或者非常非常深入地探究过它。 所以我们要一起 请牢记在心，我们并不是在讲课， 我希望也不是在布道， 所以请不要对它感到厌烦。 此外，某人（指克氏自己）也想要指出： 那就是 在聆听某人的时候 ——比方说眼前这位演讲者—— 你们不仅要用耳朵的听觉来听， 同样也要去聆听。 3:33 而聆听是一种艺术， 去自由地、 智慧地聆听某人的话语， 没有任何解释， 没有任何结论， 而是像两个朋友那样一起来讨论， 不仅讨论这个世界的情况， 同样也会讨论他们自己的各种问题， 他们自己的行为举止， 他们自己的思考方式，他们的偏见、 观点、结论。 所以，某人希望你们能够这样来聆听， 不只是聆听文字词语的关系网络， 也要聆听生活中更深层次的问题。 |
| 4:53 It seems to one, religion and to have peace in the world are the two most important things in one's life. Religion, the etymological meaning of that word is not very clear, but religion is generally accepted to be that which is going on in the world, the Christian religion, the Muslim, the Islamic, the Hindu, the Buddhist and so on, with their temples and mosques and churches or cathedrals and all the rituals that go on inside them, and all the things that are in the temples, in the churches, in the mosques, and follow, having certain faiths, belief, and the repetition of certain phrases, doing puja, rituals and so on, the whole structure of superstition – that is generally what is understood to be religion. 6:20 To the speaker that is not religion, it is all put together by thought. Thought is a material process and that which thought has created, given sanctity, tradition, then that very thought turns to worship that which it has created. This is a fact, not a theory. We will wait for that aeroplane. | 4:53 在某人（指克氏自己）看来， 「宗教」与「世界和平」 是人类生命中最重要的两个东西。 宗教，这个词 词源学上的含义 已经不太清楚了， 但人们普遍接受认可的那种“宗教” ——那种如今正在全世界发生进行着的宗教， 基督教、穆斯林、伊斯兰教、 印度教徒、佛教徒，等等， 以及他们的那些神庙、清真寺、 小教堂或大教堂， 还有所有那些在里面进行着的宗教仪式， 和所有那些放在神庙、 教堂和清真寺里的东西， 人们去追随它们，持有某些信念、信仰， 去重复某些词句， 去做礼拜，履行仪式，等等， 那整个迷信的结构 ——这就是人们通常所理解的“宗教”。 6:20 然而对演讲者来说，这并不是宗教， 这些东西全都是由思想所拼凑起来的。 而思想是一个物质化的过程， 思想所创造出来的东西 被赋予了神圣不可侵犯性，它成了「传统」， 然后思想又转而去崇拜 那个它所创造出来的东西。 这是事实，而不是理论。 让我们先等这架飞机飞过去再说。 |
| 7:30 And also, there is no peace in the world. There are the preparations for war by all nations, especially the present crisis, nuclear war and the destruction of the whole of mankind. So there is no peace in the world, nor is there peace in ourselves. To be a religious human being requires a great deal of intelligence, and also to live peacefully in this world, without conflict, without problems, without this divisive process, that also requires a great deal of intelligence. Not repetition of some slogans, not following some guru, all that is gone, finished, because man no longer, if he is at all aware, intelligent and conscious of what is going on, he has put aside all that rubbish. 9:05 You may not agree but please, listen to the very end of it, if you have the patience and if you want to face facts. Because facts do not need opinions, they are so. How you translate facts depends on your background, on your prejudices, on your conditioning, but facts remain facts, like that there is war in certain parts of the world, that they are preparing, both sides, right and left. One hopes there will be no war. | 7:30 此外，这个世界上并没有和平。 所有的国家都在为战争做准备， 尤其是当前这场危机， 核战争，它可以摧毁整个人类。 所以这个世界并没有和平， 而我们内心也没有平和。 然而要成为一个「宗教之人」， 它需要大量的智慧， 同样也需要我们能够 平和地生活在这个世界上， 没有冲突、没有问题、 没有这种分离割裂的过程， 这同样需要大量的智慧。 不是去重复某些口号标语， 不是去追随某个古鲁， 所有这些都没有了，都结束了， 因为人类已经不再 如果他真的有觉察、有智慧， 并意识到了正在发生的事情的话， 他就会丢弃掉所有这些垃圾。 9:05 你们或许并不同意， 但是拜托了，请你们听完它， 如果你们有耐心，也想要面对事实的话。 因为「事实」并不需要什么观点看法， 它就是如此。 但你如何去解释那些事实 则取决于你的背景、 你的偏见、你的局限性， 然而事实仍旧是事实， 就像这个世界上某些地区有着战争， 左派和右派双方都在备战。 某人希望不会再有世界大战。 |
| 10:06 And religion no longer has any meaning at all, except for sentimental, sensory excitement and emotional titillation, but otherwise religion, in the deepest sense of that word, which is to live a righteous life, a life of freedom, responsibility for one's own actions, independent of environment, and so on, all which we will go into during these four talks. So please, from the very beginning of these talks, if you are willing, listen not only to what the speaker is saying but also listen to your own interpretations of what the speaker is saying, how you receive or accept or react to what is being said. 11:29 So this requires a constant communication with each other, to be aware not only to the word, the significance of the word of the speaker, but also to be aware of one's own responses. So it is a responsibility. Lovely. This is modern civilisation. Shall we go on? Let's shout a little more than they do. | 10:06 而宗教也不再具有任何意义 ——除了带来一些情感上的、感官上的刺激， 以及愉快兴奋的情绪之外。 然而“宗教”这个词，它最深层的含义是： 去过一种正直的生活、 一种自由的生活， 为自己的行为负责， 不受环境影响， 等等，我们将会在这四次演讲中 来深入探讨这些。 所以，拜托了， 从这一系列演讲的一开始 ——如果你们也愿意的话—— 请不要只是听演讲者所说的东西， 同样也要聆听你自己对于 演讲者所说东西的解释， 对于对方所说的话， 你是如何接收、接受或反应的。 11:29 所以，这需要我们彼此间 持续不断地沟通交流， 不仅要去明白那些语言文字， 明白演讲者话语的意义， 同样也要觉察到自己的各种反应。 所以说，这是一种责任。 很好听。 这就是现代文明。 我们可以继续讲下去吗？ 让我们说得比他们更大声一点。 |
| 12:39 So we are going to take a long, friendly, not dogmatic journey, both outwardly and inwardly. It is far more difficult to take a journey inwardly. It is fairly easy, if you are well informed of what is going on in the world. But one must have a criteria to evaluate, as in a mirror, to see things as they are, to see what is happening in the world, in the outer world – it is really not an outward world at all, it is a world which we have created. It is like a tide going out and coming in, it is the same water. 13:50 But we have unfortunately divided the world as the outer and the inner. This eternal movement of action and reaction, challenge and response, problem after problem, and these problems are increasing more and more, not only created by the politicians and also by all the religious people but also the problems which we have created for ourselves. It is a society which we have created. It hasn't suddenly come into being. This is what we are. If our house is burning, disorderly, competitive, ruthless, we have created such a society – whether it is brutality, cruelty, injustice, and so on. 15:19 So it is our responsibility, not to change society but to see in our journey which we are going to take together, whether in that very movement of taking the journey there is a possibility of changing ourselves fundamentally, a psychological revolution, not a physical revolution. So let us go together. | 12:39 所以我们将要踏上一段漫长的、友好的、 并非教条式的旅程， 既包括外在的旅程，也包括内在的旅程。 踏上一段内在的旅程要困难得多。 但如果你十分清楚 这个世界上正在发生的事情， 它就会变得相当容易。 但我们必须要有一个评价的标准， 就像照镜子一样，去如实地看清那些事物， 去看到这个世界——这个外在的世界—— 正在发生些什么事 但它其实根本就不是一个外在的世界， 它是我们自己所创造出来的世界。 它就像是潮水，潮涨又潮落， 但它是同样的潮水。 13:50 然而很遗憾，我们却已经将这个世界划分为了 外在的世界和内在的世界。 这种行动与反应、 挑战和回应、 一个问题接着一个问题的 永恒的运动， 这些问题正在变得越来越多， 不仅是那些政客制造出来的问题， 也包括所有那些宗教人士带来的问题， 还有我们自己创造出来的种种问题。 这个社会是我们创造出来的。 它并不是突然之间凭空出现的。 这个社会就是我们自己的样子。 如果我们自己家的房子都已经着火了， 变得混乱、充满竞争和冷酷无情， 我们就会创造出同样的社会 ——不管它是野蛮的、 残忍的、还是不公正的 等等。 15:19 所以我们的责任 并不是去改变这个社会， 而是要在我们的旅程中 ——我们即将一起踏上这段旅程—— 去看看在这段旅程的行进过程中， 我们是否有可能从根本上改变我们自己， 从而带来一场心理上的革命， 而非外在物质上的革命。 所以让我们一起前行吧。 |
| 16:01 The world, geographically, nationally, religiously is divided, economically, traditionally, the world is broken up, fragmented. That fragmentation has taken place through nationalism, which is glorified tribalism, and each country is concerned with itself. But politicians and those people who are leaders forget we are all human beings, we are one people, though you may call yourself a Muslim or a Hindu or a Buddhist or a Christian, we are one humanity. You may belong to a certain sect, assert your own personal ambitions but behind all that we are one entity. The whole of humanity is us. But unfortunately for various reasons of security, our own search for security through the family, through the community, through the nation, we have separated the world as the American, the Russians, the French and the Indian and the Arab and Jew and so on. 18:09 This separation has been, this division, this fragmentation, has been one of the causes of war, destroying each other in the name of God, in the name of religion, in the name of ideologies. We all know this. And this process has been going on from the most ancient of times, this division of tribalism, economic division, religious division, social division and so on – traditions. | 16:01 这个世界已经从地理上、 国家划分上、宗教上被割裂了， 而从经济上、传统上来说， 这个世界也是四分五裂、支离破碎的。 而这种「碎片化」经由国家主义而得以体现 ——国家主义就是美化后的部落主义， 每一个国家都只关心它自己。 那些政客和领袖 已经忘记了我们都是人类的一员， 我们是一个「人类共同体」， 尽管你或许会把自己称为是 一个穆斯林、印度教徒、 佛教徒或者基督教徒， 但我们是一个「人类共同体」。 你也许会归属于某个教派， 坚持你自己个人的宗教抱负， 然而在这一切背后，我们是同一个「存在体」。 这整个人类就是我们自己。 然而不幸的是， 出于各种安全方面的原因， 由于我们自己也在追寻安全感 ——通过家庭、 社区、 国家来追求安全感， 所以我们分割了全世界， 把它分成美国人、俄罗斯人、法国人、印度人， 以及阿拉伯人和犹太人，等等。 18:09 而一直以来，这种划分、 这种分裂、这种「碎片化」 它就是导致战争的原因之一， 人类以上帝的名义、 以宗教的名义、以各种意识形态的名义 彼此毁灭对方。 这些事情我们都很清楚。 而这一过程从古至今一直在发生进行着 ——这种部落主义的划分， 经济上的割裂，宗教上的分裂， 社会的分化，等等——它们成了传统。 |
| 18:56 So, where there is division, fragmentation, there must be conflict. That is a fact. That is not the speaker's conclusion, this is what is going on. One ideology against another ideology. The conservative ideology against the liberal, the socialist against the communist, the fascist against everybody else. There is racial division, linguistic division and so on. So please, we are taking the journey together, don't merely listen to the speaker but see the facts, not according to the speaker but what is taking place actually, daily in our life. 20:16 Unless that division ceases completely, that you are no longer a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Muslim, a Christian, or belonging to different ideologies, communist, socialist, capitalist and so on, we are bound to create war. That means killing other human beings by the thousands, by the millions. If this nuclear war is to take place we will all disappear, the earth will be burnt out. And probably you know all this if you have read the newspapers or talked to certain scientists. And the argument goes on. It has been like this for a million years, or actually 45,000 years human beings have existed on this earth, according to the archaeologists and biologists, and man has struggled, struggled, struggled, fought, killed, and as it has been before, it shall be now. 22:12 And also that is the future of mankind, everlasting struggle, everlasting quarrels, destruction. This is what you are facing, not only you but your grandchildren. And we accept it. If you are a Jew you ascertain that you are a Jew, or a Hindu or some other stupid title. | 18:56 所以当有了分裂 和碎片化， 那就必然会有冲突。 这是一个事实。 这并不是演讲者的结论， 这是正在发生着的事情。 一种意识形态在对抗着另一种意识形态。 保守派的意识形态在对抗着 自由主义的意识形态， 社会主义者在对抗着共产主义者， 而法西斯主义者则在对抗着其他每一个人。 我们有着种族的划分、语言学上的划分，等等。 所以请注意，我们是要一起踏上这段旅程， 所以不要只是听演讲者说， 而是要看到这些事实， 不是根据演讲者的说法去看， 而是去看到实际正在发生的事情， 我们日常生活中发生的事情。 20:16 除非这种分裂完全地终止， 由此你们不再是印度教徒、佛教徒、 穆斯林、基督教徒， 或者属于不同的意识形态： 共产主义者、社会主义者、资本主义者 等等， 否则我们注定会制造出战争。 而战争就意味着成千上万地、 数以百万计地杀死其他的人。 如果这场核战争爆发的话， 我们所有人都将会消失， 这个地球将会被烧得只剩一片废墟。 而你们或许都知道这些事情 ——如果你曾经阅读过报纸， 或者曾经和某些科学家交谈过的话。 人们一直在为此而争论不休。 这种情况已经持续了百万年了， 或者实际上已经持续了四万五千年了， 人类从四万五千年前开始 就已存在于这个地球上了 ——根据考古学家和生物学家的观点， 而人类一直在不停地斗争再斗争， 彼此战斗和杀戮， 过去是这样，现在也将会如此。 22:12 而这也将是人类的未来： 永无止尽的斗争、 永无止尽的争吵与破坏。 这就是你们正在面对的状况， 不仅是你们要面对， 你们的子孙后代都要面对。 而我们已经接受了它。 如果你是一个犹太人， 你会很确定自己就是一个犹太人， 或者你会确定自己是一个印度人， 或者其他什么愚蠢的称号。 |
| 23:00 So we are sustaining, nourishing the destruction of human beings. That is what is going on. And the politicians cannot solve this problem. On the contrary, they are adding more and more problems. In the very solution of one problem, they multiply a dozen other problems. You see all this. And our brains are crowded with problems. And inwardly – that is the outward world – and inwardly, if you have examined at all, if one is aware what is going on, we are very primitive people. Though we have lived on this earth for 45,000 years, we are very barbarous people, cruel people. 24:18 We have been more or less what we have been from the beginning of time, hating, jealous, frightened, and in our fear create all kinds of horrors. And this is the world in which we live, outwardly and inwardly. No philosophy, no guru, no politician, nobody has solved our human problems. You can escape from them... You can escape from them by joining some monastery, by taking certain vows, or joining some cult, and no authority has ever solved our human problems. | 23:00 因此我们正在维持和滋养着「人类的自我毁灭」。 这就是正在发生的事情。 而那些政客没能够解决这个问题。 相反，他们正在不断增添越来越多的问题。 在解决了一个问题以后， 他们又引发了一大堆其他问题。 你们也可以看到所有这些事情。 我们的大脑已经充满了各种问题。 而就内在世界而言 ——刚才说的是外在的世界—— 就内在而言， 如果你真的检视过它， 如果你觉察到了正在发生的事， （你就会发现）我们依然是非常原始的人。 尽管我们已经在这个地球上生活了有 四万五千年之久了， 但我们仍然是非常野蛮的、 残忍的人类。 24:18 我们和从前、 和最早期的人类 多多少少是类似的， 我们依然充满憎恨、嫉妒、恐惧， 出于恐惧，我们制造出了各种恐怖之事。 这就是我们所生活于其中的世界 ——外在的世界和内在的世界。 而没有任何哲学、古鲁、政治家 没有任何人曾解决过我们人类的问题。 你可以逃离这些问题 你可以逃避这些问题 ——通过加入某个修道院， 通过立下某些誓言， 或者加入某个异教组织 来逃避问题， 然而没有任何权威 曾经解决过我们人类的问题。 |
| 26:05 So we have reached a point where one does not believe in anything. We have reached a point when we are utterly confused, because those who are certain at the beginning end up with uncertainty. You understand all this? I wonder if you understand what the speaker is talking about. If I start believing firmly in God or in some kind of mystical affair, if I am intelligent, somewhat intelligent, as I grow up I begin to doubt everything. So, one must begin with uncertainty, doubting, questioning, having a sceptical mind, then one comes to a place where there is absolute certainty. 27:36 Because after all, both outwardly and inwardly we are seeking security. That is why we have invented God, because that is the ultimate security. Don't be shocked, please. You are all believers in God, probably the majority of you. God or some higher principle and so on – all that is invented by thought. Thought is a material process, so anything created by thought in the world of religion is still materialistic, as technology is. | 26:05 所以我们已经达到了这个点： 那就是我们不再相信任何事物了。 我们达到了这个点： 那就是我们变得彻底困惑了， 因为那些起初的时候很确定的人， 最终都会陷入于不确定的状态。 你们理解所有这些了吗？ 我不知道你们是否理解了 演讲者正在说的东西。 如果我从一开始就坚信「神」的存在， 或者坚信某种神秘的事情， 如果我有智慧 ——稍微有点智慧的话—— 那么当我长大以后， 我就会开始去质疑这一切事物。 所以，我们必须要从「不确定」开始， 从怀疑、从质疑， 从拥有一个充满怀疑的头脑开始， 然后我们才能达到一个 有着「绝对确定性」的地方。 27:36 因为从根本上讲， 不管是外在还是内在，我们都在寻求「安全」。 所以我们才发明出了「神」， 因为「神」是最终极的安全感。 请不要感到震惊。 你们都是相信神的人 ——可能绝大多数人都是相信的。 相信「神」，相信某种更高层次的法则，等等 ——然而所有这些都是思想发明出来的。 思想就是一个物质化的过程， 所以思想在宗教世界里所创造出来的任何东西， 都仍旧是唯物主义的东西 ——就像科技一样。 |
| 28:43 So, together we are taking the journey to find out if we human beings can radically bring about a change in ourselves. Not through compulsion, not through some enticement or some promise, but seeing things as they are. The frightening, the desperate state man has reached, the confusion that the really thinking man is in, because he has been told so many things all his life, all contradicting. So we are confused human beings whether you admit it or not. Confused not only consciously but deeply, in the deep layers of the consciousness, we are confused. 30:16 The world has reached that point, where you believe neither in the scientists, nor in politicians, nor in any of the so–called – these thoughtless gurus. Man has not changed. And when one has reached this stage of confusion, deeply, then that very confusion demands right action, that very confusion brings a crisis in our life. The crisis is not out there but the crisis is in our consciousness, in our being. | 28:43 所以，我们正一起踏上这段旅程， 去发现我们人类是否可以 带来我们内心根本性的转变。 不是通过强迫， 不是通过某种引诱 或者某种承诺， 而是去看到事物的本来模样。 看到人类所深陷其中的 那种骇人的、无望的状态， 看到那些真正有思考的人 所陷入于其中的困惑状态， 因为他一生中曾被告知了那么多的东西， 然而所有这些东西都是互相矛盾的。 所以不管你承认与否， 我们都是混乱困惑的人类。 不仅仅是表层意识上的混乱困惑， 在内心深处，在意识的深层次领域， 我们也是混乱困惑的。 30:16 这个世界已经达到了这个点： 你们已经不再相信科学家， 不再相信政治家， 也不再相信任何所谓的“古鲁” ——那些没脑子的“古鲁”。 因为人类并没有改变。 而当我们内心深处 达到了这种困惑的阶段， 那么这种困惑本身 就会要求我们采取正确的行动了， 这种困惑本身 就会给我们的生活带来一种危机。 这种危机并非存在于外部世界， 而是在我们的意识之中， 在我们的「存在」之中。 |
| 31:27 So we are asking ourselves whether it is possible to bring about a deep psychological revolution in ourselves, not outward revolution – the outward revolutions have failed. The French, the recent revolution, the French, and the communist revolution, they have failed utterly. What is important is that there should be a psychological mutation, a fundamental change in the very cells of the brain, because our brains are conditioned. That is, the cells in the brain are conditioned. The speaker is not a specialist in the brain, in the structure of the brain and so on, but he has discussed with a great many scientists and so on – it is not important. 32:48 But one can watch it in oneself, much more important than talking to innumerable scientists and their authority and their contradictions. One can see in oneself how our brains are conditioned as a Hindu, a tradition, as the Jew, as the Muslim, as the Christian. Nationally, linguistically, religiously, economically, our brain is conditioned, and we are asking whether that very brain which has been conditioned through knowledge, through education, whether those very cells can bring about a mutation in themselves. You understand? Do we understand each other, the problem? 34:09 Suppose the speaker has been trained as a Muslim, repeating the Koran from boyhood, and his brain naturally has adjusted itself to the words, to the content of the words, to the meaning of the words and so on, so the brain becomes conditioned by the climate, by the food, by the tradition, by your education. So knowledge itself becomes the conditioning factor. Right? I wonder if you see this. Do you see this? Are we meeting each other somewhere? Please tell me. | 31:27 所以我们正在问自己：是否有可能 带来一场深刻的、心理上的革命 ——是我们内在的革命， 而不是外在的革命 ——因为外在的革命都已经失败了。 法国大革命，最近的革命， 法国大革命，以及共产主义者的革命， 他们都已经彻底失败了。 所以重要的是：我们应该有一次心理上的“突变”， 一种大脑细胞本身的根本性的转变， 因为我们的大脑是局限的。 换句话说，大脑中的细胞是局限的。 演讲者并不是大脑领域的专家， 大脑结构方面的专家，等等这些， 但他曾经和很多科学家，等等那些人讨论过它 ——但这个并不是重点。 32:48 重点是：我们可以在自己身上观察它 ——这远远要比和无数科学家交谈更加重要， 远远要比科学家的权威 和他们彼此间的矛盾更加重要。 我们可以在自己身上看到 我们的大脑是如何受到制约的， 被局限为是一个印度教徒， 这就是一种「传统」， 被局限为是一个犹太教徒、 一个穆斯林、一个基督教徒。 我们的大脑受到了国家、语言、宗教、经济方面的 制约， 而我们正在问： 大脑一直以来深受 知识和教育的制约， 那么这个大脑本身是否能够 那些脑细胞 是否能够带来自身的一次突变？ 你们理解了吗？ 我们是否彼此理解了对方，理解了这个问题？ 34:09 假如演讲者被培养成为了一名穆斯林， 从小开始就反复念诵《古兰经》， 那么他的大脑很自然地就会 调整自己去符合那些文字， 去符合那些文字所表达的内容、 那些文字的含义，等等， 所以大脑就变得局限了， 它会受到气候、食物、 传统、以及你所受教育的制约。 因此「知识」本身就会变成一个 造成局限的因素。 对吧？ 我不知道你们是否看到了这一点。 你们看到这一点了吗？ 我们是否多多少少理解了对方？ 请告诉我，否则我们就无法 |
| 35:12 Knowledge is the outcome of experience. And experience and knowledge are limited. Look at the scientist, what they are doing. After two hundred years they have gradually accumulated knowledge, bit by bit, through hypotheses, through various forms of experiments, acquired a great deal of knowledge about matter, and so on. So knowledge is never complete, it is always limited, whether the knowledge of Koran or your sacred books or the Bible, because it is based on experience and experience is always limited. When once you grasp that fact, the reality of that, then all thinking is limited. 36:25 Right? All thinking. Thinking is the reaction of memory, memory is stored in the brain, in the very cells, and those cells have been conditioned through centuries of human living and experience and struggle, those cells are conditioned, limited. And we are asking whether those cells themselves can undergo a fundamental mutation so that a man, a human being is entirely different, no longer conditioned. You might say that is not possible. That would be a natural reaction – it is not possible. We have lived this way for so many centuries and you are saying, how can that change take place, that mutation? 37:57 That is what we are going to enquire together. That requires a great deal of enquiry, a great deal of attention, energy, passion to find out. But if you are lethargic, as most of us are, occupied with so many things, occupied with our living, frightened with what is going to happen, frightened of the past, frightened of the future, frightened of the present, and if our brain is so clogged up, as most brains are, then the first question is, is it possible to solve problems, to have no problems? We will go into that. | 35:12 「知识」就是经验的产物。 而经验和知识都是有局限性的。 看看科学家吧，看看他们正在做的事情。 在经过了两百年以后，他们逐渐积累起了知识， 他们通过研究假设、 通过各种形式的实验 一点一点地积累，从而获得了大量的 关于「物质」等事物的知识。 所以知识永远不会是完整的， 它总是有限的， 不管是《古兰经》中的知识，你们圣书中的知识， 还是《圣经》中的知识， 因为知识是基于经验的，而经验永远都是局限的。 一旦你领会了这个事实，领会了这其中的真相， （你就会明白）所有的思考都是局限的。 36:25 对吧？ 所有的思考。 思考就是记忆的反应， 而记忆被储存在大脑中，储存在大脑的细胞中， 而这些脑细胞已经被局限了无数世纪了 ——被人类的生活、经验和斗争所局限， 这些细胞是局限的、有限的。 而我们正在问：这些细胞本身是否能够 经历一次根本性的「突变」， 由此一个人、人类就可以变得截然不同， 不再有局限。 你们可能会说：这是不可能的。 这也是一种很自然的反应 ——认为它不可能。 因为无数世纪以来，我们一直都是这样生活的， 所以你会说：这种转变怎么可能发生呢？ 这种突变如何才能发生呢？ 37:57 而这就是我们将要一起来探询的东西。 这个问题需要我们付出大量的探询， 大量的「注意力」、 能量与热情去找出答案来。 但如果你是慵懒的 ——我们大多数人都是如此， 忙碌于那么多的事情， 忙碌于我们的生活， 害怕将会发生的事情， 害怕过去，害怕未来， 也害怕此时此刻， 而如果我们的大脑是如此的阻塞 ——大多数人的大脑就是如此， 那么第一个问题就是： 我们是否有可能解决这些问题， 从而不再有任何问题呢？ 我们将会来探讨这一点。 |
| 39:14 Our brains are conditioned from childhood to solve problems. The child goes to the school, he is got mathematical problems, how to read, write. Right, sirs? I am not saying anything strange so don't look so surprised or bored. From childhood through school, through college, through university, if you are lucky or unlucky to go through all that, your brain, the physical brain, the cells are trained, educated to solve problems. Right? So you treat the whole of living as a problem to be solved. And you approach everything as a problem, sexual problems, problems of relationship, economic problems, religious problems, political problems, and we are solving them with a brain that is conditioned to solve problems. 40:39 So the problems are never solved. Have you realised that? These are facts. You may solve one problem happily but in the very solution of that problem you have another problem. Look what is happening politically in the world, in the Western world, in the communist world. They have got so many problems, economic problem, the political problem, the desire to be president, to be the top man. You know, they are all problems. You have problems with your wife and with your husband. You have a problem with your children, you have a problem with your guru. 41:43 And we are not making a problem for you, the speaker is not creating a problem for you. All that he is saying is look at things as they are first, without any prejudice, without any conclusion, and if you have conclusions, opinions, judgements, put them aside because it is only a brain that is free can look. So can you put aside all those opinions, judgements, evaluation, tradition and look at things as they are. Not as a politician, not as a follower, not as a person who has read a great deal and can speak endlessly, but as a human being, that our brains are conditioned to solve problems. 43:09 So the brain itself has a problem. You understand this? Do understand this, please. And therefore whatever it meets it turns it into a problem. So our question is whether it is possible not to have a brain that is conditioned to the solution of problems, to have a brain that is free to look and not make a problem of what it looks. Right? | 39:14 我们的大脑从小开始 就被制约着去「解决问题」。 小孩子去上学， 然后他就需要面对各种数学问题， 以及如何读书写字的问题。 是吧，先生们？ 我并没有在说什么很奇怪的东西， 所以请不要显得如此惊讶……或者厌倦。 从小开始，我们去上学， 然后考入某个学院，去读某所大学， 如果你有幸能上大学——或者说不幸上了大学—— 那么在读完了所有这些学校后， 你的大脑，物理意义上的大脑， 它的脑细胞就得到了培养训练， 它被教育着去解决各种问题。 对吧？ 所以你会把整个生活也当作一个 需要去解决的问题。 你会把你所遇到的每一样东西 都变成问题， 「性」方面的问题，关系的问题， 经济的问题，宗教的问题， 政治的问题，你们跟上了吗？ 而我们正在用 一个被制约着去解决问题的大脑 去解决这些问题。 40:39 因此这些问题便永远无法得到解决了。 你们意识到这一点了吗？ 这些都是事实。 你也许愉快地解决了一个问题， 而就在解决这个问题的过程中， 你又遇到了另一个问题。 看看政治世界里正在发生的事情吧， 西方阵营，共产主义阵营。 他们有着如此多的问题， 经济上的问题、 政治上的问题， 渴望成为总统，成为头号人物。 你知道的，这些全都是问题。 你和你的妻子或丈夫之间 会有各种问题。 你和你的孩子们也会有问题， 你和你的古鲁之间也会有问题。 41:43 然而我们并不是在为你制造问题， 演讲者并没有在为你制造某个问题。 所有他在说的东西就是：去如实地观察事物， 首先，不要有任何偏见， 不要有任何结论， 如果你有了结论、观点、判断， 那就先把它们放在一边， 因为只有一个自由的大脑才能够去观察。 所以你能否放下所有那些观点、 判断、评价、传统， 然后如实地去观察事物呢？ 不是作为一个政治家去观察， 不是作为一个追随者去观察， 也不是作为一个博览群书、 口若悬河的人去观察， 而是作为一个普通的人去观察， 去看到 我们的大脑被制约着去解决问题。 43:09 所以大脑本身就有问题。 你们理解它了吗？ 请务必理解这一点，拜托了。 因此无论大脑遇到了什么东西， 大脑都会把它变成一个问题。 所以我们的问题就是：是否可能 不要有一个被制约着 去解决问题的大脑？ 而是拥有一个能够自由地去观察的大脑， 这个大脑不会把它所看到的东西 变成一个「问题」。 好吗？ |
| 43:53 So, we are asking whether the brain cells themselves, without any compulsion, without any instigation, without any pressure outwardly or inwardly can bring about a change, a mutation in itself. Otherwise, we are going to live as we are, to detroy each other, to be endlessly struggling, never having a moment of peace. So we are going to find out these four discussions, conversations – really a dialogue – one can't have a dialogue with so many people, but one can have a dialogue with you, not with all of you, with each one of you, separate. And we were saying, religion is the most important thing in life. The crows are going to bed. The last trumpet. All right. | 43:53 所以，我们正在问： 大脑细胞本身是否可以在 没有任何强制、 没有任何煽动、 没有任何压力的情况下 ——外在的压力 或 内在的压力—— 而带来一次转变，一种它内在的「突变」？ 否则的话，我们还是会继续 像现在这样子生活， 互相摧毁， 永无止境地斗争， 从来没有和平的时刻。 所以，我们将要去发现…… 在这四次讨论、 谈话中去发现——但它其实是一场「对话」， 某人（指克氏自己）不可能和这么多的人 进行一场对话， 但他可以和你进行一场对话， 不是和你们所有人，而是和你们每一个人 单独对话。 而我们说过： 「宗教」是生命中最重要的东西。 这些乌鸦准备去睡觉了。 这是它们最后的号角。 好了。 |
| 45:47 We are asking: a new culture, a new civilisation cannot come about through economic adjustments, through political action, through various forms of institutions and foundations. Religion is the only factor, and that religion is our enquiry, to find out whether the human brain can be really religious. We mean by religion, absolute freedom, freedom from fear, freedom from conflict, freedom from problems, freedom from sorrow, so that a mind, a brain that is completely free, it is only then there is that quality of love and compassion. 47:22 Then that state alone can find out what is sacred. And in the understanding of that truth, or that perception of that which is true, then there is peace, peace in oneself, in one's own psyche. That means no conflict whatsoever. Now is this possible? If you say it is not possible, then that becomes a block that prevents you from looking at the possibility, the possibility of opening the door to look. Or if you say it is possible, then you are merely talking theoretically, then you have shut the door. 48:42 So one must have the quality of a brain that is enquiring, looking, searching, asking, questioning, doubting. Not only doubting of others, of your books and so on, but doubting what your own thinking is, question your own responses, your own reactions. That requires an alertness of mind. | 45:47 我们正在问： 一种全新的文化、 一种全新的文明，它是不可能经由经济上的调整、 经由政治上的行动、 经由各种形式的机构和基金会而出现的。 「宗教」才是唯一促成它的要素， 而我们在探询的就是这种宗教， 去发现人类的大脑是否能够 真正具有宗教性。 我们所说的「宗教」，它意味着绝对的自由， 摆脱了恐惧、 冲突、各种问题， 摆脱了痛苦， 由此头脑，大脑就是完全自由的， 而只有那时，我们才会有「爱」的品质 和那种慈悲之情。 47:22 而唯有这种状态才能够发现那个「神圣之物」。 就在对于这种真相的了解中， 或者对于「真实之物」的感知中， 就会有「平静」， 我们内在的平静，我们内心的平静。 那意味着完全没有任何冲突。 那么，这可能吗？ 如果你说这不可能， 这就会变成一种阻碍， 它阻止了你去看到那种可能性， 那种打开「观察之门」的可能性。 或者如果你说：这是可能的， 那你就只是在空谈理论， 由此你便关上了那扇大门。 48:42 所以我们必须拥有这种大脑的品质： 它能够去探询、 去观察、去寻找、去发问、去质疑、去怀疑。 不仅是怀疑别人， 怀疑你们的书本，等等， 也要去怀疑你自己的思考， 去质疑你自己的种种回应， 你自己的各种反应。 这需要头脑的警觉性。 |
| 49:27 So we are now on our journey. We are going to enquire together, first thing, which is: what is thinking? Because we live by thinking. All our actions are based on thinking. Our relationship with each other is part of thinking. The images you have built about your wife and your husband, your guru, your leaders and so on is put together by thought as an image. We will go into that presently. So thinking is our fundamental instrument. It may think devotionally, romantically, imaginatively, but it is still thinking, whether you are a scientist or a philosopher, mathematician, a biologist, or just an ordinary human being. Even the most uneducated person thinks – the villager. 50:56 So, our first enquiry on the journey is to find out what is thinking. Why thinking has become so extraordinarily important. Knowing that thinking is a material process, because it is stored up, knowledge and memory, experience is stored up in the brain cells, and that knowledge, experience, memory, and so thought is limited. This is a fact. There is no complete knowledge about anything. You may think God is complete knowledge, or some extra principle, outside agency, and we all like to believe that in all of us there is something of that quality, which is again thought. | 49:27 所以我们正踏上旅程。 而我们将要一起来探询的第一个东西， 它就是：什么是「思考」？ 因为我们是依靠思考而活的。 我们所有的行动都是建立在思考之上的。 我们彼此间的关系就是「思考」的一部分。 那些你所建立起来的 关于你妻子或丈夫的「意象」， 关于你的古鲁、你的领袖等人的意象 ——它们都是由思想拼凑起来的意象。 我们马上就会来探讨这一点。 所以「思考」是我们最基本的工具。 它也许可以进行虔诚的思考， 浪漫化的思考，充满想象力的思考， 但它仍旧是思考， 无论你是一个科学家还是哲学家， 无论你是数学家还是生物学家， 或者只是一个普通人。 即使是最没文化的人也会思考 ——比如那些乡村的居民。 50:56 所以，在这段旅程中，我们首先要探询的， 就是去搞清楚：什么是「思考」。 为什么思考会变得如此至关重要。 我们知道，思考是一个物质化的过程， 因为它被储存起来 知识、记忆、 经验被储存在了大脑细胞里， 由于知识、经验、记忆都是脑细胞里的东西， 所以思想是局限的。 这是一个事实。 对于任何事物来说，都不存在完整的知识。 你或许认为「神」是完整的知识， 或者某个特别的法则、 某个外在的媒介是完整的知识， 而我们都愿意相信在我们所有人内心， 存在着某个具备这种品质的东西 ——然而这种想法同样也是「思想」。 |
| 52:15 So one must understand very clearly the nature of our thinking. Please, observe your own thinking, not what the speaker is telling you, but observe your own thoughts, how they arise, how limited they are. Each one of us is concerned about himself basically, self-centred, and you may try to hide it behind all kinds of words but it is still there. And that self-centred thinking is limited. When you think about yourself, your achievements, your desires, your purposes, your wanting to build temples in the West and temples here, it is still limited. 53:24 Right? Whatever is limited must bring about conflict, must bring about division. That is a law. If I am divided against you, thinking about myself all day long, it is a very limited process. That is what we are all doing, happily, miserably, successfully, but that is what we are doing. So thinking, being limited, has made us, our whole outlook, limited. Right? I wonder if you get all this. Are you getting tired, or are you asleep? I don't mind, you can to sleep, it is your affair. | 52:15 所以我们必须非常清楚地了解 我们思考的本质。 请你们观察一下自己的思考， 不是接受演讲者告诉你们的东西， 而是去观察一下你自己的思想， 它们是如何出现的，它们又是多么的局限。 我们每个人基本上来说 都只关心他自己， 每个人都是以自我为中心的， 你们或许会用各种花言巧语 来试图掩盖这个真相 但事实就摆在那儿。 而这种自我中心的思考是局限的。 当你考虑你自己，考虑你自己的成就、 渴望、目标， 你想要在西方兴建神庙，也想要在这里兴建神庙， 但这些想法仍旧是局限的。 53:24 对吧？ 而任何局限的事物，它必然会带来冲突， 必然会带来分裂。 这是一个定律。 如果我和你分裂对立，然后整天只考虑我自己， 这就是一个非常局限的过程。 而这就是我们都在做的事情， 也许做得很快乐，也许很痛苦，也许做成功了， 但这就是我们在做的事。 所以这种局限性的思考 已经使我们…… 已经让我们的整个视野都受限了。 是吧？ 我不知道你们是否领会了这一切。 你们是不是有点累了？ 还是说睡着了？ 我不介意，你可以睡觉，这是你的事情。 |
| 54:35 And this thinking has created, because of its very limitation, nationalities. Hoping to find security in nationalities, in tribalism, in tribal gods, and you haven't found security. And one thought there would be security in communities. There has been no security there either. So, where is security? You follow? Where is security for us? Not through division, not through calling yourself a Hindu, Muslim, etc. So, when you see danger – do you understand what I am talking about? For God's sake, move. 55:45 I don't mean get up and go. Perhaps you want to get up and go. But I mean, I am talking about your outlook, your way of looking at it. What will make you change? You have had sorrow, you have had pain, you have had wars, you have every kind of toil and travail and yet we go on as we are. What will make us change? Reward? Reward in heaven? Reward on this earth? When you are seeking for a reward there is always the other side of it, punishment. Reward and punishment is one of our principles. | 54:35 而由于这种思考的局限性，它便创造出了 国家之分。 希望能够在不同国籍中、 在部落主义中，在部落的神明中 找到「安全」。 然而你们并没有找到那种安全。 于是我们认为在社区中会有这种安全。 然而在社区中也没有安全。 那么，安全究竟在哪里呢？ 你们跟上了吗？ 对我们来说，哪里才有安全呢？ 不是通过「分裂」来得到安全， 不是通过把自己称为印度教徒、穆斯林等等。 所以，当你看到了这种危险 ——你们理解我在说的东西吗？ 看在老天的份上，动起来吧。 55:45 我的意思不是让你起身然后走掉。 虽然你或许确实想要起身离去。 我的意思是：我在谈论的是你的视野， 你观察这个问题的方式。 什么东西才能让你们转变呢？ 你们经历过了苦难， 经历过了痛苦， 经历过了战争， 你们经历过了各种艰辛劳苦， 然而我们依然还是老样子。 究竟什么东西才能让我们改变呢？ 奖励回报吗？ 天国中的奖赏吗？ 还是世俗世界中的奖赏？ 当你寻求奖赏， 那么就总是会有它的另一面——惩罚。 奖赏与惩罚——它就是我们的行为准则之一。 |
| 57:00 So, it becomes very important to find out if thought is the only instrument that we have, and that it has created such havoc in the world, do we realise that? Look what the scientists have produced, not only medicine and surgery and fast communication and those happy convenient things, but also they have produced the most diabolical things: the nuclear war, the atom bomb, the submarine, the whole technological world of warfare is the product of thought. Going to the moon is a product of thought, and putting a flag up there is a product of thought. And our relationship with each other is based on thought. So, let's for the moment talk over together the question of relationship. Don't be nervous, I am not going to attack you. | 57:00 所以，至关重要的 是要去发现 是否「思想」是我们所拥有的唯一工具， 去发现思想已经给这个世界造成了 如此巨大的灾难破坏， 我们认识到这一点了吗？ 看看科学家们都制造出了什么东西， 不只是医学药物、外科手术 和迅捷的通讯方式， 这些令人愉快的、带来方便的事物， 科学家同样也制造出了最邪恶的东西： 核战争、 原子弹、潜水艇，你跟上了吗？ 和战争相关的整个技术领域， 它也是思想的产物。 登陆月球是思想的产物， 在月球上插一面国旗——这也是思想的产物。 而我们彼此间的关系 也是建立在思想之上的。 所以，我们现在可以先一起来讨论一下 「关系」的问题。 不要感到紧张，我不会来抨击你们的。 |
| 58:40 Your relationship, life is a process of relationship. Living is relationship. You cannot possibly live by yourself, even though you may retire for the rest of your life to the Himalayas or to a community or to a monastery, you are still in contact with humanity. You are related. You may not be related to a person but you are related to a tradition, related to knowledge, related to all kinds of things. So, relationship is one of the basic factors of life. The husband and the wife and the children, and in that relationship, with their conflicts, with their sexual demands, with their pleasures, with their pains, with their flattery, with their insults, with their nagging – you know, all that goes on in relationship. 59:54 Don't you know all that? Or you pretend it doesn't exist. Gosh, you are all so silent aren't you? In that relationship, thought has created the image about your wife and the wife has created an image about you. That is a fact. And the relationship is between these two images. I know my wife, and the wife says, I know my husband – you really don't know each other. All that you know is the image you have about her and she has the image about you. That is built through time. Right? This is a fact, sir, don't dodge the issue. And where there is a relationship between two images, there is actually no relationship at all. 1:01:18 That is again a fact. And that is why there is such conflict in relationship. There are very, very few people living together who are really related happily, not adjusting to each other or tolerating each other or exploiting each other. | 58:40 你们的关系…… 生命就是一个产生关系的过程。 生活就是关系。 你是不可能独自一人生活的， 即使你可以在余生中退隐到 喜马拉雅山中去，或者退隐至某个社区或修道院， 你仍旧需要和他人联系接触。 你是活在关系中的。 你或许不会与某个人产生关系， 但你会和传统产生联系， 和知识产生联系，和所有各种事物产生联系。 所以，「关系」是生命中最基本的要素之一。 丈夫、妻子和孩子， 在那种关系中， 他们有着冲突，有着性方面的需求， 有快乐，有痛苦， 有讨好，也有辱骂， 还有那些唠叨 ——你知道的，所有这些事情都在关系中发生进行着。 59:54 你们难道不知道所有这些事吗？ 或者你们在假装它们不存在。 天哪，你们都是如此的沉默，难道不是吗？ 在那种关系中， 思想已经创造出了关于你妻子的「意象」， 而妻子也创造出了关于你的「意象」。 这是一个事实。 而你们的关系就是这两个意象之间的关系。 我熟悉我的妻子， 而妻子也说：我熟悉我的丈夫 ——但你们其实并不熟悉对方。 你所熟悉的，只是你所持有的关于她的「意象」， 而她也持有关于你的「意象」。 这些意象是经由时间而建立起来的。 是吧？ 这是一个事实，先生， 请不要回避这个问题。 而当有了那种两个意象之间的关系， 那么实际上「关系」就已经完全不存在了。 1:01:18 这同样也是一个事实。 这就是为什么关系中 会有如此巨大冲突的原因。 只有极少极少的人可以生活在一起， 并拥有真正幸福愉快的关系， 不用去调整以适应对方，不用去容忍对方， 也不会利用对方。 |
| 1:01:53 So the question is: whether it is possible to live without a single image, and who is it that creates the images? There you are, you are sitting there, all of you, and you have an image about the speaker, haven't you? Otherwise you wouldn't be here. That is a fact. Right? The image that you have built about the speaker is not the speaker. Right? But you worship that image, or you may not worship it or you might kick it or disregard it, but still you have created an image about the speaker, and so your relationship is with the image and not with the speaker at all, because to have a relationship with the speaker we must meet each other at the same level at the same time with the same intensity. 1:03:06 Right? You understand? For God's sake. Isn't that love? When you meet somebody at the same level, at the same time, with the same intensity – not sexually, I am not talking only that, but with all your human being, with your whole being, then that is love. And there is no love if you have the images about each other. And where there is love there is no time. Where there is love there is no conflict. And to understand that extraordinary thing called love we must have great intelligence, and not fear, not ambition, not greed, not jealousy, hatred. | 1:01:53 所以我们的问题就是：我们是否可能 不带着任何意象而生活？ 是谁创造出了这些意象？ 你们在这里，你们所有人正坐在这里， 而你们都持有一个关于演讲者的意象，不是吗？ 否则的话，你就不会来到这里了。 这是一个事实。 对吧？ 然而你所建立起来的 关于演讲者的意象， 这个意象并不是（真实的）演讲者。 对吧？ 但你却会崇拜那个意象， 或者你可能不会崇拜它，你也许会攻击它、 无视它，但你仍旧是创造出了 关于演讲者的某种意象， 因此你的关系只是和那个意象的关系， 而根本就不是和（真实的）演讲者的关系， 因为如果你要和演讲者产生关系， 我们就必须在同一层次、 同一时间、以同样的强度 彼此「相交」。 1:03:06 对吧？ 你们明白了吗？ 看在老天的份上。 这不就是「爱」吗？ 当你与某人「相会」 ——在同一层次、 同一时间、 以同样的强度 和他「相交」 ——不是性交，我说的不只是这个， 而是用你整个人、用你全部的「存在」 和他「相交」， 这就是「爱」。 而如果你们持有对方的「意象」， 那就不会有「爱」了。 而当有了「爱」，就不会有「时间」了。 当有了「爱」，就不会有冲突了。 而要了解这个被称为「爱」的非凡之物， 我们就必须拥有极大的智慧， 而不是恐惧、野心、贪婪、 嫉妒、仇恨。 |
| 1:04:42 So we are asking why has thought become so important in our lives? Realising what thought has done, technologically what it has done, immense things, both appalling, fearful, dangerous, diabolical things, and also thought has created medicine, surgery, communication. And also thought has created war, divided people as the Hindu, the Buddhist, you know, all the nonsense. Unless thought has been totally understood, and thought has its place, and thought may not have any place at all psychologically. You understand what I am saying? As we said, thought is limited because knowledge is limited, experience is limited. 1:06:07 And in relationship, if thought is the means of communication with each other, there must be conflict. And also thought is necessary for you to get home, to take the bus, to go to your office, not tomorrow, Sunday, but Monday, and to go to the office for the rest of your life, day after day, day after day, day after day. This is all the product of thought. One knows one has to go to your office, to a factory, to your business and so on, there thought is necessary. But is thought necessary in relationship? Enquire into it, go into it, you will find out. | 1:04:42 所以我们正在问： 为什么在我们的生活中，思想会变得如此重要？ 请你们意识到思想都做了些什么， 它在科学技术领域都做了些什么， 无比惊人的事情， 既包括那些骇人的、可怕的、 危险的、罪恶的事情， 也包括……思想也创造出了医学药物、 外科手术，通讯手段。 思想同样也创造出了战争， 将人类划分为印度教徒、佛教徒， 你知道的，所有这些荒谬的东西。 而除非我们完全了解了思想， 思想有其自身应有的位置， 但在心理领域，可能根本就没有 任何属于思想的位置。 你们理解我在说的东西吗？ 就如我们说过的： 思想是局限的，因为知识是局限的、 经验也是局限的。 1:06:07 而在关系中， 如果思想成为了 人们彼此之间沟通交流的手段， 那就必然会有冲突。 但思想在某些情况下也是必需的 ——如果你要回家， 要乘坐公共汽车， 去办公室上班——不是明天，明天周日不用上班， 而是下周一 去办公室上班，就这样度过你的余生， 日复一日地上班，日复一日地上班。 这一切全都是思想的产物。 你们知道，当你去办公室上班， 去工厂上班，去做生意 等等， 对于那些事情来说，思想是必需的。 然而在关系中，思想是必需的吗？ 去探询它、去深入它， 然后你就会有所发现了。 |
| 1:07:28 So, as our brains are conditioned by thought, through thought, is it possible – please listen to this – is it possible to find a totally different movement which is not of thought, which is not put together by thought? Thought being the activity of time, a material process. Don't go off into meditations and all that kind of stuff. We will deal with that presently. But to find out, that is, if thought is the only instrument we have then we are condemned forever. You understand this? Because then all our action becomes limited, then whatever we do, religiously, politically, economically, will be always limited, and therefore perpetual conflict and more problems. 1:08:59 But thought is necessary. If I want to write a letter to you I must employ thought. To go from here to your house you need thought, and so on. So we are asking is thought necessary in relationship with each other? And to discover for oneself, not be told everlastingly, but to discover for oneself an instrument – not an instrument – a process of living in which thought doesn't come in. This requires enormous enquiry. This requires a great deal of your attention. Because knowledge has become so important to you, knowledge about the Gita, about the Upanishads and all the commentary. 1:10:15 Knowledge – you worship knowledge. Your goddess – you have goddesses, don't you, of knowledge. But knowledge has its place. Truth isn't knowledge. It isn't something put together by thought, it is something that comes into being when the brain is totally free, uncontaminated, pristine, original. And to discover that is part of meditation, not this stupid repetition. | 1:07:28 所以，由于我们的大脑被思想所局限了， 经由思想而被局限了， 所以，我们是否可能 ——请听好它—— 我们是否可能找到一种截然不同的活动 ——这种活动不是思想的活动， 它不是由思想所拼凑起来的？ 思想是「时间」的活动，它是一个物质化的过程。 请你们不要突然想到“冥想”等等这类东西。 我们马上就会来探讨它。 而是要去发现， 那就是：如果思想是我们所拥有的唯一工具， 那么我们就永远被判死刑了。 你们理解这点了吗？ 因为那样的话，我们所有的行动 都会是局限的， 那时无论我们做什么， 不管是宗教上、政治上，还是经济上的事情， 这些事情将永远都是局限的， 所以永远会有冲突和更多的问题。 1:08:59 但思想是必需的。 如果我想要给你写一封信， 我就必须运用我的思想。 从这里回到你自己的家， 你也需要思想，等等这类事情。 而我们正在问： 在我们彼此间的关系中， 思想也是必需的吗？ 你要自己去发现它， 不要永远让别人来告诉你， 而是你亲自去发现它， 有一种工具 ——不是一种工具—— 有一种生活过程 ——在其中没有思想的介入。 这需要大量的探询。 这需要你付出大量的注意力。 因为「知识」对你来说 已经变得如此重要， 《薄伽梵歌》的知识、《奥义书》的知识， 以及所有对它们的评注。 1:10:15 知识——你们都崇拜知识。 你们的女神——你们有“掌管知识的女神 （译注：辩才天女）”，不是吗？ 知识有它应有的位置。 但「真理」并不是知识。 它并不是某种由思想拼凑起来的东西， 它是某种 当大脑完全自由、 未被污染、原始、原创的时候 才会出现的东西。 而去发现它——这就是冥想的一部分， 而不是那种愚蠢的重复。 |
| 1:11:09 So, we must stop now. We will continue. But please, we are not talking about something theoretically, hypothetical, but we are dealing with facts. Facts are that which is happening now, that which has happened before. Not that which is going to happen – it is not a fact. The fact is what you are thinking, doing, now, and the fact of what you have done before – those are facts. But ideals are not facts, but you all have ideals, therefore you live in illusory worlds. When a brain lives in an illusory world you are bound to create conflict for yourself and for others. 1:12:22 But when you are dealing with facts, day after day, not supposition of facts, not saying, because to me my opinion is a fact and I stick to that fact – it is so obvious, your opinions, like any other opinion is non-fact. But what you do out of that opinion, out of that conclusion, out of that theory, is a fact. You understand? If you have an illusion and act according to that illusion, that becomes a fact. And your illusion is a fact too. You understand? So one has to be aware, look, question and doubt to find out. | 1:11:09 好了，我们必须结束这次演讲了。 之后我们会继续来讲它。 但请注意， 我们并不是在谈论某种理论上的东西， 并不是在做假设陈述， 我们是在处理事实。 「事实」就是此刻正在发生的事情， 和以前发生过的事情。 而不是那些将会发生的事情 ——它们并不是「事实」。 「事实」就是此刻你正在想、正在做的事情， 以及你以前做过的那些事 ——这些才是「事实」。 然而「理想」并不是事实。 但你们都拥有理想， 因此你们是活在错觉的世界中的。 而当大脑活在一个错觉的世界中， 你们就一定会给自己、给他人带来冲突。 1:12:22 然而当你处理的是「事实」， 一天又一天的事实， 不是去假定事实， 不要说：因为对我而言，我的观点就是事实， 所以我会坚持这个事实 ——显而易见，你的观点就像其他人的观点一样， 它并不是事实。 然而，你经由那种观点、 经由那种结论、 经由那种理论 所做出来的事情 ——它却是「事实」。 你们听懂了吗？ 如果你有了一个错觉， 然后根据那种错觉而行动的话， 这种「行动」才是事实。 而你的「错觉」也是一个事实。 你们理解了吗？ 所以我们必须要有所觉察，必须要去看、去质疑、 去怀疑 从而去发现。 |
| 1:13:26 The other day in California, two months ago when I was there, a car in front of us had on the bumper a sticker which said, 'Question all authority.' Will you question all authority? Your own authority first, and the authority of your religion, of your gods and your temples – question the politicians, everything question, doubt, so that your own brain begins to be active. But most of us don't question because we are frightened. We would rather be told what to do – you know better than I do, so please tell me. 1:14:39 And where there is authority, power, position, status, there is evil. It leads to such misery. But to have humility, that humility can only come naturally, uninvited, easily, when you begin to question your own thoughts, your own relationship, your own desires, your own achievements. Then out of that comes this quality of humility. When there is humility you are then learning. Learning is infinite, knowledge is limited. And that humility, not bowing down to somebody, that is not humility, not touching somebody's feet, that is not humility, going to the temple, all that is rubbish – to have humility, saying, I don't know, let's find out. 1:16:27 To be so free to look, and to have that great simplicity, not the simplicity of a loin cloth but the simplicity of a clear mind and clear heart, then only that which is beyond time comes into being. Right, sirs. | 1:13:26 不久前，有一天，在美国加利福尼亚的时候， 那是两个月前，当时我在加利福尼亚， 有一辆汽车在我们前面， 它的保险杠上贴着一张贴纸， 贴纸上写道，“质疑所有的权威。 ” 你们会质疑所有的权威吗？ 先质疑你们自己的权威， 你们宗教的权威、 你们神明的权威、你们神庙的权威 ——去质疑那些政治家， 去质疑一切事物，去怀疑它们， 由此你自己的大脑就会开始活跃起来。 然而我们大多数人并没有去质疑， 因为我们感到害怕。 我们宁愿让别人来告诉我们该怎么做 ——你比我更懂，所以请你告诉我吧。 1:14:39 而当有了权威、 权力、地位、身份， 那么就会有「罪恶」。 它导致了如此巨大的苦难。 我们需要拥有「谦卑」之情， 而要让这种「谦卑」自然地、 不请自来地、轻松容易地出现 ——这只有当你开始去质疑 你自己的念头、你自己的关系、 你自己的渴望、你自己的成就时才可能。 那时，从这之中就会产生出 这种「谦卑」的品质。 当有了「谦卑」之情，你就会不断地学习。 「学习」是无限的， 而「知识」则是有限的。 而那种「谦卑」， 它并不是去跪拜某人——这并非谦卑， 不是去触摸对方的脚——这也不是什么谦卑， 去参拜神庙，所有这些事情都是毫无价值的。 拥有「谦卑」 就是你会说：我也不知道， 让我们来把它搞清楚。 1:16:27 去如此自由地观察， 拥有那种极度的「简单性」， 不是那种浑身上下 只穿一块腰布的“简单性”， 而是那种纯净清澈的头脑和心灵 所具有的「简单性」， 只有那时，那个「超越时间」的事物才会出现。 就到此为止吧，先生们。 |
