克里希那穆提 - 什么是创造、起源和开端？

Krishnamurti Subtitles

MA8586T3 - 什么是创造、起源和开端？
印度马德拉斯（金奈）
第三次公开讲话
1986年1月4日

1:26	You don't mind if we start 5 minutes early?	我们提前五分钟开始，你们不介意吧？
1:57	I suppose we must talk. Will you kindly participate in what he's talking about? Will you? Follow, if you wish, what he is talking about. Not only follow, but, together, share. I mean by participate in it not just think about it or casually pay attention to it but rather together go into what the speaker is going to talk about presently.	我想我们必须谈一谈。请你参与到他所谈的事情中去好吗？可以吗？如果你愿意，请跟上他正在谈的事情。不仅仅是跟上，而且要一起，分享。我说的“参与进来”的意思不是仅仅想想而已或者偶尔留心一下，而是一起探究讲话者现在马上要谈的东西。
2:54	One or two things must be made very clear. This is not a personality cult. Right? The speaker has an abomination of all that, to worship somebody, because everything he is saying is contradictory if you personally worship an individual or make something into a god, into a... All the nonsense that goes on in the world. What is important is to listen to what he has to say share it, not only listen but actually participate in what he's saying. You may agree, or disagree which you are perfectly right to do but since you are here and since the speaker is here we are talking over together. We have talked about – I've forgotten – we talked about life the very complexity of life the beginning of life. We are going together to see what is life? What is the origin of all this? The earth, the marvellous earth, the lovely evening and the early morning sun, the rivers, the valleys, the mountains and the glory of the land which is being disseminated, spoilt.	有一两件事必须要先说清楚。这不是一种个人崇拜。对吗？讲话者对所有那些东西都极其反感， ——崇拜什么人—— 因为他说的一切与那些都是矛盾的，因为如果你个人崇拜某人，或者把什么当作神明，当作这个世界上演的所有那些无稽之谈。重要的是倾听他要说什么，分享，不只是听，而是实实在在地参与到他说的事情中来。你们可能同意，或者不同意，你们这么做完全没问题，但是既然你们来到这里，既然讲话者也在这里，那么我们就来一起探讨。我们之前谈到了 ——我忘记了—— 我们谈到了生命，生命的纷繁复杂，生命的开始。我们要一起来看看什么是生命？所有这些的起源是什么？地球，奇妙的地球，美丽的夜晚和清晨的朝阳，河流，山谷，山脉和大地的壮丽，这大地正在被播种，以及破坏。
5:20	So, what is the origin of all this? If you say 'God', then it's finished then you can trot along quite happily because you've solved the problem. But if you begin to question, doubt as one should, all gods all gurus – I don't belong to that tribe – if you begin to question all that man has put together through a long evolution of two million years from the beginning of the Sumerians and so on, the Hebrews, ancient Egyptians down the corridors of History they have always asked this question: what is the beginning? What is the origin? How has all this come about? I hope you are asking that question. Don't just listen to me, to the speaker with wide eyes or with narrow eyes, or whatever eyes you have but share in it, tear it to pieces. Don't, please accept anything he says. He's not your guru, thank god. He is not your leader. He is not your helper. Right? So, that is the platform, that is the beginning of this talk.	那么，这一切的起源是什么呢？如果你说是“神”，那就结束了；然后你就可以高高兴兴地离开了，因为你已经解决了这个问题。但是，如果你开始发问，质疑 ——你也应该如此——所有的神明，所有的古鲁 ——我不属于那个范畴—— 如果你开始质疑人类经过两百万年的漫长进化制造出来的所有那些东西，从苏美尔人，等等，从希伯来人、古埃及人开始，沿着历史的长廊走来，人们总是在问这个问题：那个开始是什么？起源是什么？所有这一切都是怎么来的？我希望你也在问这些问题。不要只是听我、听讲话者说，睁着大眼睛或小眼睛，不管你有什么样的眼睛，请分享这个问题，把它掰开揉碎。请不要接受他的任何说法。他不是你的古鲁，谢天谢地。他不是你的领袖。他不是帮助你的人。对吗？所以，这是这次谈话的平台，这次谈话的开始。
7:40	This is a very serious talk we are going into and unless your brain is active, not just sit there and gaze, is actually active one is afraid that you won't be able to follow. That would be useless for the speaker and for you sit here and listen to a lot of words. But if we could together take a long journey a very long journey, not in terms of time not in terms of belief or conclusions or theories but as we have examined very carefully the way of our lives: fear, uncertainty, insecurity and all the inventions that man has made including the extraordinary computers and so on, if you take a long journey into this – where are we at the end of two million years? Where are we going? Not some theory, not what some wretched book says, however holy it is. Where are we all going? And where have we begun? They're both related to each other: where we are going, where we began. The beginning may be the ending. Do you understand? I don't know if you understand what I'm talking about. Don't agree. Find out. There may be no beginning and no ending and we're going to investigate into that together. Is that all right? Do you approve of all that? It doesn't matter if you approve or not, I'm going.	我们要进行的是一次非常严肃的谈话，除非你的大脑是活跃的，不是只坐在这里瞪着眼睛看，而是真的活跃，否则恐怕你会跟不上。那对于讲话者来说将是毫无意义的，如果你只是坐在那听去一堆词句。但是，如果我们能一起进行一次长途旅行，一段很长的旅程，不是时间上的长，也不是信条、结论或理论意义上的长，而是我们很认真地检视我们的生活方式：恐惧，不确定性，不安全感，以及人类制造的所有发明，包括超级计算机等等在内，如果你踏上一次探究这些的长途旅行 ——在两百万年的结尾，我们到了哪里？我们要去向哪里？不是某个理论，不是某本破烂的书说的，无论它有多么神圣。我们都将去向何方？而我们又是从哪里开始的？这些问题都是相互关联的：我们去向何方，我们是从哪里开始的。也许起点就是终点。你明白吗？我不知道你是不是明白我在说什么。不要同意，去弄清楚。也许既没有起点也没有终点，而我们是要一起去探究这个问题。可以吗？这些你都同意吗？你同意不同意都没关系，我接着讲。
10:41	From the beginning of time man has always thought in terms of religion. Right? The ancient Egyptians had their Isis, Osiris and all the gods and the ancient Hebrews and so on right down to the present day. What is religion? You understand my question? What is religion? Why are we so inclined – or not, saying, 'I don't believe in anything'. But man has always sought something more than this world. They've worshipped the stars, the sun, the moon and their own creations; it has been a tremendous endeavour effort, energy, spent on ancient temples mosques and the churches of course. They have spent tremendous energy on this. Some of them most extraordinarily beautiful others are hideous – around the corner you can find them. And we are asking: what is the spirit of man that sought something beyond the world the present day agony, the travail, the work, the going to the factory, to the office and climbing the ladder of success, making money, trying to impress people, trying to command, right from top to down. Right? Right? Are you agreed with it? It is a fact whether you agree or not. You're all seeking power in some form. They want to be at the centre of things in Delhi, or here, or in other places. They want to be there.	从时间伊始，人类就一直在以宗教的方式思考。对吗？古埃及人有他们的伊希斯、奥西里斯以及所有的神明，古希伯来人等等，也是如此，一直到今天还是如此。宗教是什么呢？你明白我的问题吗？宗教是什么？为什么我们总是如此倾向于，或者不倾向于，比如说 “我什么都不信”。但人类总是在寻找某种超越这个世界的东西。他们崇拜过星辰、太阳、月亮以及他们自己制造出来的东西；这可是项艰巨的工程，耗费巨大的努力和能量，用来建造古老的寺庙、清真寺，当然还有教堂。他们在这方面花费了巨大的能量。其中有一些极其辉煌壮丽，另一些丑陋可怕——转个角你就能发现它们。而我们在问：人类寻求超越俗世的那种精神是什么？超越当前的痛苦、日常琐事、工作，到工厂、办公室去上班，攀爬成功的阶梯，赚钱，努力给人好印象，努力去掌控，自上而下。对吗？对吗？你认可这点吗？不管你认可与否，这是个事实。你们都在寻求某种形式的权力。人们想要处在事情的中心，在德里，在这里，或者其他地方。人们都想到达那个地方。
13:21	But, we are asking: what is religion? what is that made man spend enormous treasures or given treasures to a temple and so on what made him do all this? Are we talking together? Yes? Yes? Somebody tell me a little bit. Gosh, you need a lot of poking, don't you? What made him do all this? What was the energy that was given to all this? Was it fear? Was it a seeking a reward from heaven, or hell whatever you like to call it? Seeking a reward. Was that the origin? Because man, as you, you want a reward, you want something in exchange. You pray three times or five times a day and you hope in return some entity will give you something from a refrigerator to a car to a better wife or better husband or wait for grace, something that you can hope, cling to. Right? This has been the history of all religion – right? organised. You know the temple near here called Tirupati. I'm sure you go there, it doesn't matter. They make, I believe, a million dollars every third day. Right? Right? No? So, God and money are always together. That's how the Catholic Church was built, tremendous treasures there, extraordinary valuable jewels and all that. So, you too have it here in the various temples and all the puja and worship and all that triviality. All that really nonsense.	但是，我们在问：宗教是什么？是什么让人类花费了无数的财富，或者给寺庙之类捐了无数财富，是什么让他做出这一切的？我们是在一起谈话吗？是吗？是吗？有人来跟我说一下吧。天哪，你需要很多刺激，不是吗？是什么让他做出这一切的？做这些所用的能量是什么？是恐惧吗？是不是想得到来自天堂或者地狱的回报，无论你管它叫什么？寻求回报。这是起源吗？因为人，也就是你，你想要回报，想要什么东西作为交换。你每天祈祷三次或者五次，你希望，某种存在会给你点什么作为回报，从一个冰箱到一辆车到一个更好的妻子或者更好的丈夫，或者等待恩泽降临，某种你可以寄望或者依附的东西。对吗？这就是所有宗教的历史——对吗？—— 有组织的。你知道离这里很近的那座寺庙叫提鲁帕提。我肯定你去那儿参拜，没关系。我相信，他们每三天就能赚一百万美元。对吗？对吗？不对？所以，神和金钱总是在一起的。天主教堂就是那么建造的，那里有不计其数的财富，价值连城的珠宝，等等。而且，你们这儿也有，在各种各样的寺庙、所有的礼拜仪式、崇拜和所有那些琐事当中。所有这些地地道道的愚行。
16:34	So, we are trying to find out enquire very, very deeply what is religion – not obviously all this moneymaking stuff. Right? Do you go along with what I'm saying, even for an hour? But afterwards you can go back to your temples, to your prayers, to your... – what's it called in Sanskrit, I've forgotten for a moment, it doesn't matter. So, we are asking what is that which is nameless, which is the supreme intelligence which has no relationship with all our prayers with all our temples, mosques, churches – of course that's all man-made. Right? Right? All the gods, all the temples, mosques and so on even that, all that is man-made. No? We have built the churches – not you you're all in the offices or somewhere else but the builders of the ancient monuments, ancient temples, all that, all the rituals all the strange dresses they put on medieval dresses, to impress the people. But if you brush all that aside any intelligent man must brush all that aside, the prayers, the worship the puja, giving garlands to some idol – right? and the priest muttering some Sanskrit words probably which he doesn't himself understand and probably it's his tradition and thereby he earns a lot of money, and so on. If you can put all that aside. Not become cynical, not become merely sceptical but a really enquiring brain right? – enquiring brain. Have you got such a brain? Enquiring brain, a brain that is active, a brain that enquires into everything not only outside, which the scientists are doing in their way, the world, the outside world, but have you got a brain that is enquiring into its own thoughts, into its own consciousness, into its own pains, sufferings, all the rest of it. Have we got such a brain?	所以，我们正试着发现，深入地探究什么是宗教 ——显然不是所有这些赚钱的把戏。对吗？你能跟上我说的话，哪怕只有一个小时吗？但是，之后你又回去参拜你的寺庙去了，做你的祈祷，做你的 ——梵语里叫什么来的，我这会儿忘了，没关系。所以，我们在问什么是那无名的、最高的智慧？它与你们所有的祈祷、寺庙、清真寺和教堂都无关 ——当然这些都是人造的。对吗？对吗？所有的神明，所有的寺庙，清真寺等等，连那个，所有那些都是人造的。不是吗？我们建造了教堂——不是说你们，你们都在办公室里或者其他什么地方，而是那些古老纪念碑、古老寺庙的建造者，所有那些，所有的仪式，他们穿着所有那些奇怪的服饰，中世纪的服饰，为了让人们留下深刻印象。但是，如果你把这些都扫到一边，任何一个智慧的人必然会把这些都扫到一边，祈祷，崇拜，礼拜，给某个偶像佩戴花环——对吗？—— 牧师低声念诵着梵文，可能他自己都不懂那是什么意思，可能那只是他的传统，他可以从中赚很多钱，等等等等。如果你能把这些都放在一边，不是变得愤世嫉俗，或者只是变成个怀疑主义者，而是一个真正在探究的大脑， ——对吗？——探究的大脑。你有这样一个大脑吗？探究的大脑，活跃的大脑，这个大脑对每件事都询问，不只是像科学家们那样探索世界、探索外界，而是你有没有一个探究它自己的思想、自己的意识，自己的痛苦、苦难以及所有其他一切的大脑？你有这样一个大脑吗？
20:29	Here, we must separate the brain from the mind. You don't mind? The brain is the centre of all our nerves, all our knowledge, all our theories, opinions, prejudices college, universities, all that knowledge is gathered in the skull. Right? It is there. All the thoughts, all the fears, and so on. Is the brain different from the mind? Don't look at me, I'm asking you a question. If you seriously pay attention to what the speaker asked: is there a difference between the brain – your brain what is inside the skull – and all the knowledge you have gathered not only you, but your forefathers and so on, so on for two million years. It's all encased in there. So that brain will always be limited. Right? Don't agree, sir, this is much too serious. And is the mind different from this, from my consciousness, from my daily activity, from my fears, anxieties, uncertainties, sorrow, pain and all the theories which man has gathered about everything – it is there. Right? And the brain – I mean the mind – has no relationship with the brain but it can communicate to the brain but the brain cannot communicate with it. Am I making something clear to you? Do you understand my question? Don't agree, please that's the last thing to do, agree with me. The speaker is saying the brain is the keeper of all our consciousness, of our thoughts of our fears, and so on, and on, and on. All the gods, all the theories about gods and all the unbelievers, it's all there. Nobody can dispute that unless you're a little bit odd. You know the word 'odd'? It's a little bit It's all there but this brain which is conditioned by knowledge by experience, by tradition, and so on it cannot have any communication with that thing with that mind which is totally outside the activity of the brain. I don't know if you will accept this don't bother, just think about it, look at it. But that mind can communicate with the brain but the brain cannot communicate with that. Because the brain can imagine infinite things, the brain can imagine the nameless; brain can do anything. You understand? And that's too immense because it doesn't belong to you, it's not your mind, your – etc., etc.	这里，我们必须把大脑和心灵分开。你们不介意吧？大脑是我们整个神经系统的核心，我们所有的知识，所有的理论，观点，偏见，学院，大学，在头颅里收集的所有知识。对吗？它就在那儿。所有的思想，所有的恐惧，等等。大脑和心灵是不同的吗？别看我，我在问你问题。如果你认真注意讲话者所问的：大脑有没有不同 ——你头颅里的大脑—— 和你收集的所有知识，不只是你，还有你的祖先们在两百万年里收集来的知识。这些都存在那儿了。所以这个大脑总是受限的。对吗？不要同意，先生，这非常严肃。而心是否与此不同，与我的意识，我的日常活动，我的恐惧，焦虑，不确定感，悲伤，痛苦，还有人类收集的关于所有事情的理论——它就在那里。对吗？而大脑——我说的是心灵—— 与大脑没有关系，但是它可以跟大脑沟通，但是大脑无法与心灵沟通。我跟你说明白了没有？你理解我的问题吗？请不要同意我的话，赞同我——那是最不需要做的事。讲话者说，大脑是我们所有的意识、思想、恐惧等等的保管员。所有的神明，关于这些神的所有理论和所有的不信奉者，都在那里。没人会对此有疑义，除非你有点奇怪。你知道“奇怪”这个词吧？这有点儿都在那儿，但是这个被知识、经验、传统等等局限的大脑，是不能跟那个东西有任何沟通的，那个心灵完全在大脑的活动之外。我不知道你是否接受这点，没关系，只是想一想，看一看。但是心灵能跟大脑沟通，而大脑不能跟心灵沟通。因为大脑有无限的想象力，大脑能想象那无名的东西，大脑什么都能干得出来。你明白吗？那个东西太浩瀚了，因为它不属于你，那不是你的心智，你的——等等等等。
25:24	So, we are going to investigate together, please bear in mind always together, not only the nature of religion but also enquire into the computer. You know what the computer is? Don't you? Yes. It's a machine. It can programme itself. It can bring about its own computer. The father computer has its own son computer who is better than the father. You understand all this? You don't have to accept this. It's public it's not something secret, so watch it carefully. That computer can do almost anything that man can do. It can invent all your gods, all your theories, your rituals, even better at it than you will ever be. So, the computer is coming up in the world not only in the factories but also it's going to make your brains something different. Which is – you've heard of genetic engineering? Oh god, don't you hear all these things? They're trying to, whether you like it or not to change your whole behaviour. That is genetic engineering. They are trying to change your way of thinking.	所以，我们一起来探究 ——请一直记得我们是一起的—— 不仅探索宗教的本质，也来探讨一下计算机。你知道计算机是什么吗？不知道吗？好的。那是种机器。它能自己编程。它能造出自己的计算机。上一代计算机有自己的下一代，下一代比上一代好。你明白这些吗？你不用接受这些。这是公开的，不是什么秘密，所以来密切地关注一下。计算机几乎可以做人类能做的所有事情。它能发明你所有的神明，你所有的理论，你的仪式，这方面比你还能干。所以计算机正在世界上涌现，不只用在工厂里，而且会让你的大脑发生改变。也就是——你们听说过基因工程吗？噢，天哪，你们没听说过这些事情？不管你愿不愿意，它们在试图改变你的整个行为。这就是基因工程。它们在试图改变你的思维方式。
27:54	You understand what I mean? Oh, don't stare at me, sir. He is laughing. Will you go and sit somewhere else? Will you? Will you go and sit somewhere else? Because you are staring at me all the time. Sit there, sir, would you? Questioner: It's only my eyes.	你明白我在说什么吗？噢，请不要瞪着我，先生。他在笑。你可以坐到别的地方去吗？可以吗？你可以去坐到别的地方吗？因为你一直在瞪着我看。坐在那，先生，可以吗？提问者：那只是我的眼睛而已。
28:18	Krishnamurti: I know, I know. That's good enough. Would you sit there, sir? Good. Thank you.	克：我知道，我知道。那很好。你可以坐在那吗，先生？好。谢谢。
28:33	So, genetic engineering and the computer. Right? When the two meet together – they're going to presently in a couple of years – what are you? You understand what I'm asking, sir? What are you as a human being, what are you? Your brains are going to be altered. Your way of behaviour is going to be changed. Right? They may altogether remove fear, remove sorrow, remove all your gods. They're going to, sir, don't fool yourself. Because it all ends up either in war or in death. Right? So, this is what is happening in the world actually. Genetic engineering on the one side and computer on the other and when they meet as they're inevitably going to meet what is your what are you as a human machine being? Actually, your brain now is a machine. You are born in India and say, 'I'm an Indian'. You are encased in that. Or you're born in Russia – back again, and so on. You are a machine – please don't be insulted I'm not insulting you – you are a machine who repeats, repeats, or says it is different you know, machine, like a computer. Right? Don't imagine there is something divine in you – that would be lovely – something holy that is everlasting. The computer will say that to you too.	所以，基因工程和计算机。对吗？当这两个碰到一起——它们很快就会如此，几年之内——那么你是什么？你明白我在问什么吗，先生？你是什么，作为一个人，你是什么？你的大脑将被改造。你的行为方式将会被改变。对吗？它们可能会完全除掉恐惧，除去悲伤，消灭你所有的神明。它们会的，先生，不要骗你自己了。因为这些东西要么以战争要么以死亡告终。对吗？所以，这是世界上实际发生着的事情。一边是基因工程，一边是计算机，当二者相遇，正如它们不可避免要相遇，作为人类一员的你将是什么？实际上，你的大脑现在就是个机器。你在印度出生，你就说，“我是印度人”。你就被限制在这里边了。或者你出生在俄罗斯——还是同样的结果，等等等等。你就是台机器——请不要觉得被侮辱了。我没有侮辱你——你就是个机器，在重复，重复，或者说那是不同的 ——你知道，机器，就像个计算机。对吗？不要想象你身上有什么神圣的东西 ——那将很美好—— 一种永恒的神圣的东西。计算机也会这么跟你说的。
31:03	So, what is becoming of a human being? What is becoming of you? And we have also to enquire – this is a very serious subject, don't agree or disagree, just listen, you can't probably you can't take part in it – what is creation? You understand my question? You understand my question at least – creation. Not the creation of a baby, that's very simple or the creation of a new something or other. Invention is totally different from creation. Invention is based on knowledge. Right? I can improve, the engineers can improve the jet. The improvement is based on knowledge and the invention is also based on knowledge. So we must separate invention from creation. Will you? No, no, sir, don't agree. This requires your total energy, your capacity to penetrate, not just say yes, yes. The difference between creation and invention you understand the difference? Invention is essentially based on knowledge. Right? I improve the clock; I have a new gadget because the old gadgets I have used I have found something new and I invent something else. So all invention is based on knowledge – right? – on experience. Inventions are inevitably limited because they are based on knowledge. Oh, god's sake, somebody wake up. So, knowledge being ever limited inventions must always be limited. In the future they may have no jets, but something else and that will go from Delhi to Los Angeles in two hours. That's an invention based on previous knowledge which has been improved step by step by step but that's not creation. Right? I get rather fed up looking at those faces which say nothing.	所以，人类会变成什么样呢？你会变成什么样呢？我们也必须要探究 ——这是个非常严肃的话题，不要同意或不同意，只是听着，你不能—— 你也许不一定能参与其中——什么是创造？你明白我的问题吗？你至少要明白我的问题——创造。不是婴儿降生，那很简单，或者造出一样新东西什么的。发明完全不同于创造。发明是基于知识的。对吗？我能改进，工程师能改进飞机。这种改进是基于知识的，发明也是基于知识的。所以我们必须把发明和创造区分开。可以吗？不，不，先生，不用同意。这些问题需要你全部的能量，你洞穿的能力，而不只是说，是的，是的。创造和发明之间的不同，你明白这种不同吗？发明从本质上讲是基于知识的，对吗？我改进了钟表；我有个新的小工具，因为我原来用老工具，我发现了一点新东西，我就发明了些别的。所以所有的发明都是基于知识的 ——对吗？——基于经验的。发明不可避免地是局限的，因为它们是以知识为基础的。噢，看在老天的份上，醒醒。所以，知识从来都是局限的，发明也必然始终是局限的。将来他们可能没有飞机，但是有别的东西，两个小时就能从德里到洛杉矶。这是基于以前的知识的发明，是一步步改进的，但那不是创造。对吗？看着这些面无表情的脸，我真是受够了。
34:39	So what is creation? So what is life? You understand? Life in the tree, life in the little grass, life in the scientist – life, not what they invent what they do, but the beginning of life. I don't know if you understand. Life, the thing that lives. You may kill it but it's still there in the other.	那么什么是创造？什么是生命？你明白吗？树的生命，小草的生命，科学家的生命——生命，不是它们发明的东西，它们做的事情，而是生命的开始。我不知道你明白没有。生命，活着的东西。你可以把它杀死，但是它还在另一个生物里。
35:20	So, we're asking, don't agree or disagree don't nod your head, but see we are enquiring into what is the origin of life. C'est d'accord? Vous etes comme moi? I am sorry, I will stop. So, we are going to enquire into the absolute, something that is really marvellous. Not a reward. You can't take it home and say, 'I will use it'.	所以，我们在问，不要同意或者不同意，不要点头，而是明白我们在探究生命的起源是什么。可以么？和我一起？对不起，我会停下来的。所以，我们来探索那绝对之物，某种真正奇妙的东西。不是一种奖赏。你不能把它拿回家，说：“我要使用它”。
36:12	What is meditation to you? Would you kindly tell me. What is meditation to you? You meditate, some of you, don't you? No? Oh, god, what? Some of you do, don't you? What is meditation? The word, it's common language in the dictionary means 'to ponder over, to think over' and 'to concentrate', to learn to concentrate on something not let your brain wander all over the place. Right? Right? Is that what you call meditation? Be simple, sir, be honest. That is what? Giving every day a certain period and you go to a room quietly, sit down for ten minutes quarter of an hour, meditate. Right? Right? Do you agree with that, sir? No? Then what is meditation to you? Concentration? Thinking about something very noble? You can't answer all these questions.	对你来说，冥想是什么？请好心告诉我。对你来说，什么是冥想？你们其中一些人冥想，不是吗？不是？噢，天哪，什么？你们中有些人是冥想的，不是吗？什么是冥想？这个词，词典里通常的意思是 “沉思，仔细考虑，专注”，学习专注于某事，别让你的大脑四处瞎逛。对吗？对吗？这就是你所谓的冥想吗？简单点，先生，诚实点。那是什么？每天花一段时间，静悄悄地走进一个房间，坐下来十分钟、一刻钟，冥想。对吗？对吗？你同意吗，先生？不同意？那对你来说冥想是什么？专注？想点很高尚的事情？你无法回答这所有的问题。
37:58	So, we are going to first enquire what is meditation. Any conscious effort to meditate is part of your discipline of the office. Because you say, 'If I meditate, I will have a quiet mind or I will enter into another state'. And so on and so on. The word 'meditation' also means 'to measure' – right, sir? – to measure, which means compare. Oh, lord. So, your meditation becomes mechanical – right? Because you are exercising energy to concentrate on a picture, an image, or an idea and that concentration divides. Right? You understand what I mean? Concentration is always division. No? I want to concentrate on that, but thought wanders off. Then I say, 'I mustn't wander off, come back'. You repeat that all day long, or half an hour. And then you come off it and say, 'Well I've meditated'. And this meditation is advocated by all the gurus by all the – you know lay disciples, and so on, so on. And the Christian idea is, 'I believe in God and I am sacrificing myself to God'. You understand what I'm saying? And, therefore, I pray to save me to save my soul, save my etc., etc. Is all this meditation? Tell me, I know nothing about meditation at least not this kind. Will you tell me? Is this meditation? Tell me, sir, don't be frightened I'm not your guru, or your boss, or... Tell me if this is meditation. It's like an achievement. Right? It's an achievement. I meditate for half an hour, by Jove, I feel bright. Or is there a totally different kind of meditation? Right, sir? Totally different.	所以我们先来探讨什么是冥想。任何有意识地进行冥想的努力都是你办公室纪律的一部分。因为你说：“如果我冥想，我就会有一个安静的心灵，或者我将进入另一种状态”。等等等等。 “冥想”这个词的意思是“衡量”——对吗，先生？—— 衡量意味着比较。噢，老天。所以，你的冥想就变得机械了——对吗？—— 因为你在运用能量来集中在一幅画、一个图像，或者一个念头上，这种专注就造成了分裂。对吗？你明白我的意思吗？专注始终是分裂。不是吗？我想要把注意力集中在那上边，可是思想开小差了。然后我说，“我不可以走神，回来”。你整天或者在半个小时里这样重复着。然后你做完了，说，“好，我冥想过了”。而这种冥想被所有的古鲁所提倡，也被所有的——你知道的，在家弟子，等等等等所提倡。而天主教的观念是： “我信奉上帝，我要为上帝牺牲自己”。你明白我在说什么吗？因此，我祈祷，来拯救我，拯救我的灵魂，我的等等等等。所有这些是冥想吗？告诉我，我对冥想一无所知，至少不是这种类型的。你可以告诉我吗？这是冥想吗？告诉我，先生，别害怕，我不是你的古鲁，或者你的老板，或者告诉我这是不是冥想。这就像是一种成就。是吗？这是一项成就。如果我冥想了半个小时，天哪，我感觉很好。还是说，还有另一种完全不同的冥想？对吗，先生？完全不同的。
41:21	I'm asking you, but since you won't answer, I must answer. In the word 'meditation' which is measurement, as I said, which is comparison of achievement, that's not meditation. I say don't accept anything the speaker says, at any price. The speaker says that is not meditation at all. That's merely a process of achievement. Right? You have been one day not able to concentrate you take a month and say, 'Yes, I've got it'. That's like a clerk becoming a manager. Right? So is there a different kind of meditation which is not effort, which is not measurement which is not routine – please pay attention to what I am saying – which is not mechanical? Is there a meditation in which there is no sense of comparison? Or there is no reward and punishment. You understand all this? So is there any meditation which is not based on thought which is measurement, time, and all that? You understand my question? How can one explain a meditation that has no measurement, that has no achievement, that doesn't say, I will be that, I am this, but I will become that. 'That' being God or super-angel.	我在问你，但是既然你不愿回答，那我就得回答了。 “冥想”，也就是衡量这个词，正如我所说，是成就的比较，那不是冥想。我说不要接受讲话者说的任何话，千万不要。讲话者说，那根本不是冥想。那只是个成就的过程。对吗？有一天你不能集中精力，你就花了一个月去练习，然后说，“是的，我做到了”。那就像一个职员变成了经理。对吗？所以，是不是有一种不同的冥想，不需要努力，不是衡量，不是例行公事——请注意我说的话——不是机械的？有没有一种冥想，其中没有任何比较？也没有奖惩？这些你都明白吗？那么，有没有一种冥想不基于思想，也就是衡量、时间等等所有这些？你懂我的问题吗？怎么才能解释一种没有衡量、没有成就的冥想，它不会说，我要成为那样，我现在是这样，但是我要变成那样。 “那”可以是上帝或超级天使。
43:53	So that requires – if I may point out not for you to accept or deny, just pointing out – is there a meditation which has nothing to do with will with our energy that says, I must meditate, which has nothing to do with effort at all? The speaker says there is. You don't have to accept it. He may be nuts. He may be talking nonsense but he sees logically the ordinary meditation is self-hypnosis, deceiving oneself and when you stop deceiving, stop all that mechanical process, is there a different kind of meditation? And there, fortunately, the speaker says yes. That is not for you to say. 'Yes, I agree, I'll meditate'. You can't get at it through effort, through giving all your energy to something. You can't, there is no – you understand? It is something that has to be absolutely silent. Don't achieve silence now. Don't sit in meditation. Please don't do it, sir. You can't do it. First of all, begin very humbly, very, very humbly and therefore very gently and therefore no pushing, driving, say, 'I must do this'. It requires a tremendous sense of not only aloneness but a sense of – I mustn't describe it. I mustn't describe it because then you will go off on descriptions. If I describe it, the description is not the real. Right? The description of the moon, or the Himalayas painted description, is not the Himalayas. Right? So, we will stop describing. It's for you to play with it, or not play with it going your own way and your own peculiar achievements through meditation and so on, reward and all the rest of it. So, a meditation which is absolutely no effort, no achievement, no thinking, then the brain is quiet. You understand? Not made quiet by will, by intention, by conclusion and all that nonsense; it is quiet! And being quiet, it has infinite space. Are you waiting for me to explore and you swallow what I explore? God, what kind of people are you?	那么，这需要——如果我可以指出的话，不是让你接受或者拒绝，只是指出来—— 有没有一种冥想，与我们那种说 “我必须冥想”的意志和能量无关，与努力完全无关？讲话者说有。你不必接受。他可能是个疯子。他可能在说胡话，但是他逻辑清晰地看到，通常的冥想就是自我催眠，是欺骗自己，当你停止了欺骗，停止了所有那些机械过程，有没有一种不同的冥想？幸运的是，讲话者说：有。这不是要让你说： “是的，我同意，我要冥想”。你不能通过努力，通过把你所有能量集中在某件事上来实现它。你不能，没有——你明白吗？那是一种需要绝对安静的东西。不要现在去获得宁静。不要坐着冥想。请不要这么做，先生。你不能这么做。首先，很谦卑地开始，非常非常谦卑地，因而轻轻地因而没有急切，没有驱动说：“我必须这么做。” 这不仅需要一种巨大的独立，而且需要一种——我不能描述它。我一定不能描述它，因为那样你就陷在描述里了。如果我描述它，那描述就不是真实了。对吗？对月亮的描述，或者描绘喜马拉雅山的图画，都不是真的喜马拉雅山。对吗？所以，我们要停止描述。你可以认真或不认真地考虑这个问题，走自己的路，去实现你自己特定的成就，通过冥想等等，通过回报以及诸如此类。所以，完全没有努力、没有成就、没有思考的冥想，那时大脑是安静的。你明白吗？不是意志、意愿、结论和所有那些胡扯让它变得安静；它就是安静的！它既然安静了，就有了无限的空间。你们在等着我来探索吗？你们囫囵吞下了我探索的东西？天，你们都是怎样的人啊？
48:22	So, is your brain ever quiet? I'm asking you. Your brain: thinking, fearing, your office work, your thinking of your family, what they will do and your sons, your daughters – thinking which is time and thought. Is your brain ever quiet? Would you kindly tell me?	那么，你的大脑安静过吗？我在问你。你的大脑：思考，恐惧，你办公室的工作，你对家庭的考虑，他们要做什么，你的儿子和女儿——思考也就是时间和思想。你的大脑安静过吗？你可以好心告诉我吗？
49:10	Questioner: (Inaudible)	提问者：（听不清）
49:13	Krishnamurti: What, sir? Don't be nervous, sir. Say what you want to say and if you can't say it forget it. Is your brain ever quiet? Not made quiet by drugs and by all kinds of inducement, whisky or various forms of drugging yourself. You drug yourself when you believe. You drug yourself and say, 'Yes, this is perfectly right, the Buddha said that, therefore it must be right'. You're drugging yourself all the time therefore you have no energy of that kind that demands into the penetration of something immense.	克：什么，先生？别紧张，先生。你想说什么就说，如果你说不出，就把它给忘了。你的头脑安静过吗？这安静不是依靠药物和各种诱因得来的，威士忌或各种麻醉自己的东西。当你相信什么时就会麻醉你自己。你麻醉自己，然后说：“是的，这完全正确，佛陀这么说过，所以肯定是对的”。你时时刻刻在麻醉自己，所以你没有那种能量，洞穿某种无限的东西需要的能量。
50:21	So, we're going now back to find out what is creation. You understand? What is creation? Because it has nothing to do with invention. That's gone. So what is the creation, the origin, the beginning? What is life? Tell me, sirs, what you think of it. Tell me. What is life? Not going to the office and all the rest of it, sex and children, or no children but sex and so on, so on, so on. What is a life? What gives life to that blade of grass in the cement? You understand? What is life in us? Not all the things that we go through: power, position, prestige, fame, or no fame but shame. So, that's not life, that's part of our mishandling of life. But, what is life? You understand my question? You understand, sir?	所以，我们现在回过头去探讨一下什么是创造。你明白吗？什么是创造？因为它与发明无关。这个过去了。那么什么是创造，起源，开端？什么是生命？告诉我，先生们，你们是怎么想的。告诉我。什么是生命？不是去办公室，以及诸如此类，性和孩子们，或者没有孩子但是有性，等等等等。生命是什么？是什么把生命赋予了水泥中钻出的小草叶片？你明白吗？我们身上的生命是什么？不是我们经历的这些事情：权力，职位，威望，名声，或者没有名望，只有羞耻。所以，那不是生命，那是我们没有善待生命的表现。然而，什么是生命？你明白我的问题吗？你明白吗，先生？
52:05	Why are you listening to me? What makes you, if you are listening at all, listen to the man? What is the motive behind your listening? What do you want? What's your desire? Behind the desire there is a motive. Right? So what is desire? First, carefully let's quickly examine it. Desire is part of sensation, isn't it? I see this beautiful clock or ugly clock; it's a sensation. The seeing brings about a sensation. Oh, this is normal, sir, don't... From that sensation thought comes and makes an image of it. That is, I see this clock, rather nice, I would like to have it. The sensation of seeing, then thought coming and making an image of that sensation at that moment, desire is born. It's very simple. Right? So, is there a brain, your brain which is not muddled up, muddied by environment by tradition, by society and all the rest of it?	你们为什么来听我讲话？是什么让你们来听这个人说话，如果你们在听的话？你们来听的背后有什么动机？你们想要什么？你的欲望是什么？欲望后面是动机。对吗？那什么是欲望？首先，我们认真但快速地审视一下这个问题。欲望是感受的一部分，不是吗？我看到了这个美丽的钟或者丑陋的钟，这是一种感官感受。看见就带来了一种感受。噢，这很正常，先生，不要从这感受里，思想出现了，制造了一个意象。那就是，我看见这个钟，相当漂亮，我想要拥有它。看见时有感受，然后思想出来制造了关于那个感受的一个意象，就在那个时刻，欲望诞生了。这很简单，对吗？那么，有没有一个大脑，你的大脑，没被弄乱，没被环境、传统、社会和诸如此类弄糊涂？
54:01	So, what is the origin of life? Are you waiting for me to answer it? You are waiting for the speaker to answer that question? Are you? Would you kindly tell me yes or no. I'll wait. If you tell me, then I'll go on. This is much too a serious subject for you to play with because we are trying to enter enquire into something that has no name, no end. I can kill that bird, there is another bird. I can't kill all birds there are too many of them in the world. So, we are enquiring into what makes a bird what is creation behind all this? Right? Are you waiting for me to describe it, go into it? Yes, sir? You want me to go into it? Why?	那么，生命的起源是什么？你们是在等我来回答吗？你们在等讲话者来回答这个问题吗？是吗？你们可以好心告诉我是或否吗？我等着。如果你们告诉我了，那我就接着说。这是一个太严肃的问题了，你们不能不认真考虑，因为我们要试着进入、探究某种没有名字、没有尽头的东西。我可以杀死那只鸟，但还有另外一只鸟。我可以杀死所有的鸟，世界上还有很多其他的。那么，我们在探究是什么造出了鸟，所有这一切背后的创造是什么？对吗？你们是在等我来描述它，探讨它吗？是吗，先生？你想让我探讨这个问题？为什么？
55:40	Q: To understand. K: What do you understand?	问：为了理解。克：那你理解了什么呢？
55:45	Q: (Inaudible)	问：（听不清）
55:50	K:Through your brain?	克：通过大脑吗？
55:57	Q: (Inaudible) K:Why do you ask that? Because I asked? You see again, you're – sorry, sir. No description fits, can ever describe the origin. The origin is nameless the origin is absolutely quiet, it's not whirring about making noise. Creation is something that is most holy that's the most sacred thing in life and if you have made a mess of your life, change it! Change it today, not tomorrow. If you are uncertain, find out why and be certain. If your thinking is not straight, think straightly, logically. Unless all that is prepared, all that is settled, you can't enter into this world into the world of creation. It ends.	问：（听不清）克：你为什么要问这个？因为我问了吗？你又一次看到，你是——对不起，先生。没有合适的描述，无法表达那起源。那起源是无名的，那起源是绝对安静的，它不是呼呼地制造噪音。创造是极其神圣的事情，那是生命中最神圣的事，如果你把生活弄得一团糟，改变它！今天就改变它，不是明天。如果你不确定，那就弄清为什么，并且确定下来。如果你的思维不够连贯，那就清晰地、逻辑地思考。除非所有这些都准备好了，都解决了，否则你是不能进入这个世界的，进入这个创造的世界。到此为止了。
57:57	This is the last talk. Do you want to sit together quietly for a while? All right sirs, sit quietly for a while.	这是最后一次讲话。你们想一起安静地坐一会吗？好吧，先生们，安静地坐一会。
59:18	May we get up and go now?	我们现在可以起来了吗？