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ML70DSG3 - 是什么让人控制的？
第三次小组讨论
美国，马里布
1970年3月14日



0:54 K:So what shall we talk over together? I don't know! (Laughter) 克：那么，我们一起来探讨些什么？ 我不知道！（笑声）
1:52 Q:Can we talk about violence? 问：我们可以谈谈暴力吗？
2:04 K:All right, sir, if you want to talk about it. The superficial violence or the deep-rooted violence in man? 克：好的，先生，如果你想谈谈这个问题的话。 是谈表面的暴力，还是人类身上根深蒂固的暴力？
2:25 Q:Both. 问：两个都谈。
2:33 K:What do you mean by that word 'violence'? Would you say any form of resistance is violence, any form of conformity is violence, or any form of discipline, in the sense of imitation, imitating a pattern, a violence? Which means really control. Any form of control is violence. No? I mean, merely throwing a brick at a bank or… that's one form of violence, killing another, anger, and so on, which we recognise very easily as violence. But there are other really much more vital and deeper layers of violence of which most of us are unconscious. At what level do you want to discuss this? 克：用“暴力”这个词，你所指的是什么含义？ 你会不会说任何形式的抗拒都是暴力， 任何形式的遵从都是暴力， 或者任何形式的戒律， 从模仿、仿效某个模式的意味上来说，都是一种暴力？ 那实际上意味着控制。 任何形式的控制都是暴力。 不是吗？ 我是说，对着银行扔砖头或者 那仅仅是一种形式的暴力，杀害别人、愤怒，等等， 我们很容易就能认出那是暴力。 但是还有另外一些更为 重大和更深层次的暴力， 我们大部分人并没有意识到。 你想在哪个层次上探讨这个问题？
4:30 Q:Sir, does this mean that if I control myself so as not to eat meat, that that's a violent act, for example? 问：先生，这是否意味着，比方说，如果我控制自己不去吃肉， 那就是一种暴力行为？
4:40 K:No, I said, sir, any form of control is violence. Don't immediately take an example, let's examine it. It may not be true. It is, but let's go into it, sir. To control or not to control. What would you consider violence? Hate is violence - but these are all very, very superficial forms of violence, aren't they? 克：不，先生，我是说，任何形式的控制都是暴力。 不要立刻举例子，我们来审视一下。 这个说法也许并不正确。它其实是正确的，但让我们来深入探讨一下，先生。 控制或者不控制。 你认为什么是暴力？ 仇恨是暴力 ——但这些都是非常非常表面的暴力形式， 不是吗？
5:34 Q:Can we look at violence as something that tears you apart? Anything which tears you apart. With control, something has to control something else and then you have division. 问：我们能否把暴力看成是某种撕裂你的东西？ 任何撕裂你的东西。 通过控制，某种东西要控制另外一些东西， 于是你就有了分裂。
5:46 K:But look at it, sir, that's what… our whole culture is based on that - controlling, resisting, suppressing, imitating, conforming, adjusting. Would you call all that violence? What is the need to control? I get angry and I say, 'I must control.' Why? 克：但是来看一下，先生，那就是……我们的整个文化正基于此 ——控制、抗拒、压抑、 模仿、遵从和调整。 你会将那一切称为暴力吗？ 为什么需要控制？ 我生气了，于是我说：“我必须控制。” 为什么？
6:37 Q:Well, in that case, one might fear harming someone else. 问：哦，那种情况下，也许是害怕伤害别人。
6:45 K:Go into it, sir, go into it a little more. 克：深入进去，先生，再深入一点。
7:00 Q:What if there is lack of control? 问：如果缺乏控制，会怎么样？
7:08 K:You've controlled, haven't you? Would you call that violence? 克：你控制过，不是吗？ 你会称之为暴力吗？
7:15 Q:Yes.

K:Why? 		问：是的。

克：为什么？
7:20 Q:Because it's force. 问：因为那是强制力。
7:28 Q:You can feel a pressure when you do that, when you control something, you can feel a tension. 问：当你那么做的时候，你能感觉到一种压力， 当你控制什么的时候，你能感受到一种紧张。
7:40 K:It's really quite an extraordinarily complex question this, you know. Don't just brush it off by taking one example or… but get to the… if I may suggest, go behind the words. 克：你知道，这真是一个异常复杂的问题。 不要仅仅举个例子或者……就把它轻易打发掉， 而是深入到……如果我可以建议的话，请深入到语言背后去。
7:55 Q:It's destructive. You feel that. 问：它是毁灭性的。你能感觉到。
8:06 Q:It's as if we are talking about both doing violence to our own inner experience and talking about doing violence, damage to someone else or... property. 问：好像我们既在探讨 对我们自己的内在体验施加暴力，也在探讨对别人或者……财产 施加暴力、破坏。
8:28 K:I don't think I've ever controlled. 克：我认为我从未控制过。
8:31 Q:Never controlled? What happens? 问：从没控制过？那是怎么回事？
8:34 K:Wait, wait, wait. And you say you have controlled. Why the two? 克：等一下，别急，别急。 而你说你控制过。为什么存在这两种情况？
8:49 Q:Fear? 问：因为恐惧？
8:51 K:No, sir, don't just say 'fear' and then… Go, explore it a little bit. Let's explore it, sir. Here someone says, 'Look, I've lived so many years now and I've really never controlled. About anything.' Either it's an outrageous lie [laughs], outrageous statement, or it may be true, I want to find out, whether a life can be lived without control at all. 克：不，先生，不要仅仅说“恐惧”，然后 更深入地探索一下。我们来探索一下，先生。 这里有个人说：“看，我活了这么多年， 而我真的从未控制过。 没控制过任何事情。” 这要么是一个弥天大谎【笑】，一句骇人听闻的表达， 要么是真实的，我想要去弄清楚， 能否完全没有控制地生活。
9:37 Q:Does that mean that you've never experienced anger? 问：那是不是意味着你从未经历过愤怒？
9:42 K:No, no, anger is something different. We said, sir: what is violence? We were talking of violence. At what level are we talking about violence? The physical violence, the reaction, anger, hatred, and brutality, all that, or, at a level that is the source of all violence - not only physical but psychological and all the rest of it. Unless we tackle the deep source of it, mere pruning the branch has little meaning. Could we go into this? Would it interest you? 克：不，不，愤怒是不同的事情。 先生，我们说的是：暴力是什么？ 我们讨论的是暴力。 我们是在哪个层次上探讨暴力？ 身体上的暴力，反应、 愤怒、仇恨和残忍，是所有那些， 还是在 一切暴力的来源这个层面上 ——不仅仅是身体上的，而且是心理上的以及诸如此类的一切。 除非我们解决它深层的根源， 仅仅修剪枝叶则意义甚微。 我们可以深入探索这一点吗？你们感兴趣吗？
11:02 Q:Yes. 问：是的。
11:20 K:Why do you control? 克：你为什么控制？
11:30 Q:Fear? 问：因为恐惧？
11:32 Q:There is a threat. Because there's a threat. There seems to be a threat to me, when I want something different from what is. 问：有一种威胁。因为有一种威胁。 对我来说，当我想要与现状不同的某种东西时， 似乎就存在一种威胁。
11:56 K:Sir, would you like to find out how to live without control? Would it interest you? 克：先生，你想发现如何毫无控制地活着吗？ 你会对此感兴趣吗？
12:08 Q:Yes.

K:Let's explore it, let's see. A person like… here, who's sitting here, says he has never controlled. It sounds appalling! And what does it mean? What is a life without control? Is that ever possible? So, I want to find out why I control. First let's begin with that - why do I control? 		问：是的。

克：我们来探索一下，我们来看看。 像……这里，坐在这里的一个人，说他从未控制过。 这听起来太可怕了！ 而那意味着什么？没有控制的生活是怎样的？ 那究竟是否可能？ 于是，我想弄清楚我为什么控制。 首先我们从这里开始——我为什么控制？
13:00 Q:Fear…

K:Is it fear? 		问：恐惧……

克：是恐惧吗？
13:05 Q:Fear, a threat. 问：恐惧，一种威胁。
13:11 K:Is it fear that makes me control? Or the memory of something which is unpleasant and that makes me control? 克：是恐惧让我控制吗？ 还是对某件事情不愉快的记忆让我控制的？
13:28 Q:Habit. 问：是习惯。
13:30 K:Yes, custom, habit, the educational… and everything. No, look into yourself, sir, what makes you control? Don't verbalise it too quickly, let's find out. What makes one control? 克：是的，传统、习惯、教育习得的……以及一切。 不，看看你自己，先生，是什么使你控制？ 不要过快地将其语言化，我们来弄清楚。是什么让人去控制？
13:56 Q:You're conscious of yourself as apart from other things. 问：你意识到自己与别的东西是分开的。
14:11 Q:Because I'm frightened, I want to get away from it and that makes me control. 问：因为我害怕，我想要从中脱离， 而这让我去控制。
14:19 Q:One doesn't seem to control if you're not aware of yourself. If you're not self-conscious, one doesn't control. 问：如果你没有意识到自己，你似乎就不会去控制。 如果你没有自我意识，你就不会控制。
14:37 K:Go on, sir, you go into it. 克：继续，先生，深入进去。
14:39 Q:An image of how we should be. 问：对我们应该如何的一种意象。
14:46 Q:It seems to me both fear and desire lead to control. 问：在我看来，恐惧和欲望都会带来控制。
15:04 K:Control means a form of suppression, doesn't it, a form of imitation, a resistance to something. Why? Why don't I flow, live? And that's perhaps what the younger generation want. You know, live, let everything happen. And is that justified too? The Victorian, the Puritanical, the Brahmanical, the Judaic sanctions and, you know, all those limitations, limitations, and one has conformed to all that and suddenly say, 'What is the point of it all?' and break through. I wish we could discuss this really, go into it very deeply. It would be worthwhile because I think… freedom is that. Freedom is a sense of complete denial of control, complete non-acceptance of pattern. Is that possible in life? I have to live with my wife, or girl, whatever it is, I have to live with somebody, and I've always to adjust myself. I can't tell her or him everything, and therefore there's a restraint, there's a resistance. It's a form of living a life of a lie. I'm always lying. I don't know… And I... Go on, sirs, I am talking, I don't want… 克：控制意味着某种形式的压抑，不是吗？ 意味着某种形式的模仿， 对某种东西的抗拒。 为什么？为什么我不流动、不去生活？ 而那也许就是年轻一代想要的东西。 你知道，活着，让一切发生。 而这是否也是合理的？ 维多利亚时代的、清教徒式的、婆罗门教的、犹太教的约束， 以及所有那些限制、限制，你知道的， 你一直遵从着那一切，而突然你说， “这一切有什么意义？”然后突破出来。 我希望我们能真正地探讨这一点，非常深入地探索这一点。 这是值得的，因为我认为……那就是自由。 自由是一种彻底摒弃控制的感觉， 对模式彻底的不接受。 这在生活中可能吗？ 我得和我的妻子或者女友，或者不管是谁，生活在一起， 我得和某人生活在一起， 而我不得不一直调整自己。 我不能把一切都告诉她或他， 因此有一种克制，有一种抗拒。 这是一种谎言式的生活方式。 我一直在说谎。 我不知道……而我 继续，先生们，我在说，我不想
18:12 Q:I find that when I have no resistance it is going along with something, I have no resistance at all. I find I can do that when I have a certain confidence that I can cope with the consequence. 问：我发现当我没有抗拒时， 就会随着某种东西动起来，我完全没有抗拒。 我发现我能做到这一点， 是在我有某种信心我能够应对结果的时候。
18:27 K:When you have confidence… 克：当你有信心
18:28 Q:That I can cope with the consequence. 问：有信心我能够应对结果。
18:30 K:Is that it? Is it that having confidence brings about a mind that is free from all resistance? Is that it? Having confidence? Confidence in what? 克：就是这样吗？是因为有信心， 使得心灵摆脱了所有抗拒吗？ 是这样吗？有信心？对什么有信心？
18:50 Q:That whatever happens… 问：无论发生什么
18:52 K:No, sir, see the danger of it, having confidence. 克：不，先生，看到它——有信心其中的危险。
18:58 Q:Confidence in that whatever happens I will deal with it somehow, go along with it. 问：无论发生什么都有信心我能够以某种方式处理， 与之共处。
19:10 Q:Sir, I see one tries that. He's in a situation where he is a self. He's just feeling direct all the facts come out, actually protects nothing, and then finds he's being… that somehow he's being manipulated, utilised, so far. Now, what is that set-up? But if you know that happens, one begins to change, I mean to behave differently, to protect oneself. Is that control? 问：先生，我看到有人在努力那么做。 他处在他是一个自我的位置上。 他只是在直接感受所有事实的发生， 而并不去保护什么，然后发现自己 在某种程度上是被复制出来的、是被利用的，仅此而已。 那么，这个机制是什么？ 但是，如果你知道事情会那样发生，你就开始改变， 我是说会改变行为方式来保护自己。这是控制吗？
20:34 K:Sir, if you're controlling all the time, where is freedom? If you're always resisting, resisting, where is the sense of complete… the beauty of it? And our life is a series of controls, resistances. 克：先生，如果你始终在控制，那么哪里会有自由？ 如果你一直在抗拒、抗拒， 那种完满的感觉……那种美，在哪里？ 我们的生活是一系列的控制和抗拒。
21:53 Is this something new, and so we are rather puzzled? 这是某种新鲜的东西吗，所以我们感到相当困惑？
22:05 Q:What puzzles me is you can't ever… it seems impossible to do something different than controlling. I mean, then we react against it, we say, 'Oh, I'll be myself,' and you just go around and then there's a reaction to it. 问：困惑我的是你始终不能 除了控制，似乎不可能做些别的什么。 我是说，然后我们会做出对抗的反应，说：“噢，我要做我自己，” 而你只是绕回去，然后对它有了某种反应。
22:21 K:No, sir. When you say, 'I'll be myself,' what does that mean? 克：不，先生。当你说：“我要做我自己，”那是什么意思？
22:28 Q:Well, that phrase doesn't have much meaning, but it generally means, I suppose, to go against or to… It has a million meanings. [Laughs] 问：哦，那句话并没有太多的含义，可它通常意味着， 我觉得，是反对或者赞同 它有一百万个含义。【笑】
22:53 Q:Perhaps we could ask what we mean by control, sir? 问：也许我们可以问问控制意味着什么，先生？
22:57 K:Ask it, sir. 克：问吧，先生。
22:59 Q:What do you mean when you say 'control,' sir? What do you mean? 问：当你说“控制”的时候，你指的是什么意思？
23:02 K:What I mean by control is to resist, to resist, to hold back. 克：我说的控制是指抵抗、抗拒、抑制。
23:07 Q:Oneself or others? 问：自己还是别人？
23:09 K:Others, oneself, resist, hold back, restrain. I want to smoke and I mustn't, I mustn't overeat, I want to be sexual, I mustn't. You know, must and mustn't - you follow? - this battle going on all the time. 克：别人和自己，抗拒、 抑制、克制。 我想吸烟，但是我不可以吸烟，我不可以吃太多， 我想要性，我不可以要。 你知道，必须和不可以——你明白吗？—— 这场战斗一直在进行着。
23:40 Q:I find myself controlling just this very instant, trying to think of what was said two minutes ago, trying to hold it, to keep this idea, to follow it, to pursue it. 问：我发现自己此刻就在控制， 努力思考两分钟前所说的话，努力把握住它， 留住这个想法，跟随它、追逐它。
23:54 Q:But if I understand why I mustn't smoke it becomes suddenly clear to me that I just don't smoke anymore. It's the understanding that does away with the resistance. I know for myself, I stopped smoking and it was unusual only because there was no resistance to stop. 问：但是如果我了解了我为什么不可以吸烟，那么对我来说就一下子清楚了 我就是不会再吸烟了。 是那了解扫除了抗拒。 这点是我自己知道的，我停止了吸烟，这不同寻常， 就是因为没有对停止的抗拒。
24:34 Q:If I didn't control my children I would lose my job. Is that violent? 问：如果我不控制我的孩子们，我就会丢了工作。这是暴力吗？
24:51 K:You see, you're now resisting the question, aren't you? I mean, if someone asks: why do you live this kind of life of constant control, what's the point of it? 克：你看，你现在就在抗拒那个问题，不是吗？ 我是说，如果有人问： 你为什么过着这种不停控制的生活， 其意义何在？
25:17 Q:Then there is only control when there is a point, when there's a reason. 问：如果有意义、有原因的话， 那就只剩下控制了。
25:26 K:In that sense, yes. Yes. 克：在那个意义上，是的。是的。
25:42 Q:I must control myself and others in order to make them fit the images I have about how life should be, both for myself and others. As long as there are images in my head there bound to be control. 问：我必须控制自己和别人，以使其符合 对于自己和别人的生活应当如何 我所抱有的意象。 只要我脑子里有意象，就必然会有控制。
26:00 K:Sir, if I may suggest, don't let's answer the question immediately. See what is implied in it, sir, control - why one controls at all? Fear, the desire for security, facing something which I don't know, when I'm used to living a life always in the known, and I control because I want to be certain, clear, there's no contradiction, conflict, and so on, and on, and on. Now, perception of all that, the cause, the reason for control, would that clarify, help us to be free of controlling? Knowing the cause of control, will that free the mind from controls? Will the analysis of why we control help us to be free from control? 克：先生，如果我可以建议的话，我们不要马上回答这个问题。 看看其中隐含着什么，先生，控制——人究竟为什么控制？ 恐惧，对安全的需要，面对我不知道的东西， 当我习惯于始终在已知中生活， 而我控制，是因为我想要确定、清晰， 没有矛盾、冲突等等等等。 那么，看到了那一切， 看到了控制的根源和由来， 能否清除、帮助我们摆脱控制？ 知道了控制的原因， 能使心灵摆脱控制吗？ 对于我们为什么控制的分析能否 帮我们摆脱控制？
27:36 Q:I don't think so. 问：我不这么认为。
27:38 Q:Well, if you don't understand at all that you are controlled or why you are controlled I suppose you wouldn't even begin to be able to cope with it. On the other hand, I suppose that understanding could be superficial, where you could recount analytically, clearly why you're controlled and never somehow to tackle... 问：哦，如果你完全不了解 你是受控的或者你为什么被控制， 我认为你甚至都无法开始有能力去应对它。 另一方面，我想那了解也许是肤浅的， 你可以清晰地表述和分析 你为什么受控制，却从未从某种程度上解决
28:03 K:That's what I want to get at, sir. 克：那就是我想说的，先生。
28:09 Q:Aren't we looking at a fragment now? 问：我们现在不是在看一个碎片吗？
28:15 K:Yes, one fragment says to the other fragment: I must control you. That's all. One fragment takes the superior position as the analyser, the censor, the controller and suppresses everything else, controls it, or rejects it, or goes beyond it, overcomes it, and so on, one fragment opposed to the other. This is what we call control. 克：是的，一个碎片对另一个碎片说： 我必须控制你。 就是这样。 一个碎片占据了高位，作为分析者、 审查者、控制者，压制着其余的每个碎片， 控制它、排斥它，或者超越它、战胜它，等等， 一个碎片对立于另一个碎片。这就是我们所谓的控制。
28:52 Q:And analysing is often a means of control. 问：而分析通常是一种控制手段。
28:55 K:Yes, analysing is a means of control. Now, if one questions all that, that is, to find out a different way of living without this, how would you set about it? 克：是的，分析是一种控制手段。 那么，如果你质疑那一切， 也就是说，为了发现一种不同的没有这些东西的生活方式， 你会如何开始？
30:02 Q:When I think of doing anything about it, it's more control. 问：当我想到要对此做些什么时，那是更多的控制。
30:14 Q:For one thing, by seeing all the time exactly what you are doing. If you're not controlling all the time then you see you're not controlling. If you are controlling then you see you are controlling, when you're aware of it. 问：首先，始终确切地看到自己在做什么。 如果你始终没有控制，那么就看到你自己没有在控制。 如果你在控制，那么就看到你自己在控制， 当你对此有所觉察时。
30:29 Q:Wouldn't you have to experiment a little to see what the resistances are? You experiment by moving along, going along, then you will see where you are lost, by experimenting. 问：你难道不需要稍微探索一下， 来看看有哪些抗拒？ 你试探着往前移动、往前走， 然后通过试验你就会发现你在哪里迷失了。
30:41 K:Sir, would you put it: I want to find out whether I can live in daily life without having any form of control. I want to find out, I want to live it, not verbally, not theoretically, but actually I want to live it. Now what am I to do? How do I set about it? 克：先生，你是不是想说：我想要发现 我的日常生活中能否没有任何形式的控制。 我想弄清楚，我想这么生活，不是从语言上、不是从理论上， 而是我确实想这么生活。 那么我该怎么办？我要如何开始？
31:09 Q:Try it. 问：试一试。
31:11 K:How do I try it? I'll try it. All right. How do I try it? Go on, sir, let's see. How do I try it? 克：我怎么试？我会试一试。好的。我怎么试？ 继续，先生，我们来看看。我怎么试？
31:21 Q:I would try and go along with whatever life brings me, in health, disease, in friendship, loss of friendship, to see what my resistances are. 问：无论生活带给我什么，我会试着与之共处， 无论是健康、疾病、友谊或失去友谊， 看看我有哪些抗拒。
31:30 K:Which means what? 克：那是什么意思？
31:34 Q:Does it mean there's a separation still? 问：那是不是意味着依然有一种分裂？
31:36 K:No, sir. No, sir. Would I wait for environment or circumstances to bring about this freedom from control? 克：不，先生。不，先生。 我会等待环境或者境遇 带来这种从控制中的解脱吗？
31:54 Q:Well, you don't have to wait, there's environment and circumstance right now. No waiting. 问：哦，你不必等， 现在就有环境和条件。 不用等。
32:10 K:I want to live a life without control. First of all, I don't know what it means, because my life is all control and rejection, resistance. Now, how am I to find out? How am I to move, experiment? Experiment being test it out. 克：我想要过一种没有控制的生活。 首先，我不知道那意味着什么， 因为我的生活充满了控制、拒绝和抵抗。 现在，我要如何去发现？ 我要如何前进、探索？ 探索是进行彻底的检验。
32:35 Q:It seems like the first thing to do is to start right now. 问：似乎首先要做的是现在就开始。
32:39 K:Yes, start right now. Let's start right now. What am I to do, sir? How am I to find the key to this, the movement of this? You follow? What am I to do? 克：是的，现在就开始。我们现在就开始。我该怎么办，先生？ 我要如何找到通往它的钥匙，找到这种运动？ 你明白吗？ 我要怎么办？
33:06 Q:Well, every time we do something it implies we have an idea or a goal, like we don't know what it is to not control... 问：哦，每次我们做什么，都意味着我们有个想法或者目标， 就好像我们不知道“不控制”是什么
33:13 K:Do it, sir. Now I'm asking you. [Laughs] Find out how to live without control, now. Do it now, see what is meant by that. Never to have contradiction, which means control. Right? I want to smoke, I don't want to smoke. That's a very small affair, but I mean push that right through. That's our way of thinking - I want to go, I don't want to go. And all that implies control, resistance. Now I want to find a way of living which isn't at all that, because I see a life of that kind will inevitably stop freedom, will inevitably continue, bring about a constant battle with myself, within myself, with another, and so on, and on, and on. So I want to live a life in which there is no control at all. And would I do then anything I wanted? Then would I want anything? Which means dependence on somebody? Go on, sirs, I'm… Push it, let's do it together. I depend on you - wife, husband, society - I depend on you, psychologically, not, you know, obviously, postman and mail, the grocer, and so on - that's quite obvious. I depend on you, psychologically. And being dependent there is a sense of insecurity. That sense of insecurity, I want to ward off, resist, and my dependence grows deeper, more, and more, and more, and therefore my control of myself more, and more, and more, so I'm stuck there. So what shall I do? 克：这么做，先生。现在我在请求你。【笑】 现在就弄清楚怎样没有控制地活着。 现在就做，看看那意味着什么。 永远没有矛盾，而矛盾意味着控制。 对吗？我想吸烟，我不想吸烟。 这是一件很小的事情，但我的意思是要将它研究透彻。 那就是我们的思维方式——我想去，我不想去。 而这些都意味着控制、抗拒。 现在我想发现一种完全不是这样的生活方式， 因为我看到那种生活必然会妨碍自由， 必然会继续、会导致我与自己无休止的斗争， 与自己、与别人等等等等的战争。 所以我想要过一种其中完全没有控制的生活。 那样的话，我会为所欲为吗？ 那样的话，我还会想要任何东西吗？ 而那意味着依赖某人？ 继续，先生们，我在 向前推进，我们一起来。 我依赖你——妻子、丈夫、社会—— 我心理上依赖你，你知道，显然不是说 邮差和邮政、杂货商等等——显然这些是需要的。 我从心理上依赖你。 而依赖是一种不安全感。 那种不安全感，我想避开它，抵抗它， 而我的依赖变得越来越深、越来越多， 所以我对自己的控制越来越多、越来越多， 于是我困在了那儿。 所以我该怎么办？
37:27 Q:Sir? To ask, maybe not as a question, but to ask what it is that I'm depending on you for, what it is that I hope to… 问：先生？ 问一下，也许并不是作为一个问题，而是问一问 我依赖你是为了什么， 我希望的是什么
37:53 K:Sir, all that is going to take time. That will take me many days. I don't want many days. I don't want to spend the next forty years saying why, why, why? Because that's such an awful waste of time. Whole analysis is a waste of time. Sorry, forgive me! [Laughter] 克：先生，那一切都需要花时间。 那将花费我好多天的时间。我不想花那么多天。 我不想花费接下来的40年说为什么，为什么，为什么？ 因为那是如此可怕的一种时间的浪费。 整个分析都是浪费时间。对不起，请原谅我！【笑声】
38:33 Q:It seems like time is important here. 问：时间在这里似乎很重要。
38:36 K:This is it, sir, look. Control is time. 克：就是这样，先生，你看。控制是时间。
38:39 Q:Yes. It seems like it's focused on future time. 问：是的。似乎焦点集中在未来的时间上。
38:44 K:There it is, sir, do watch it, sir. Do watch it. 克：就在那里，先生，务必观察一下，先生。务必观察一下。
38:50 Q:In a certain sense, we… [inaudible] 问：在某种意义上，我们……【听不清】
38:55 K:No, I don't know. Don't assume anything, sir. 克：不，我不知道。不要假定任何事情，先生。
39:02 Q:I have it right now. 问：我现在就是这么想的。
39:10 K:For myself I want to end control - you follow? - not through analysis because that doesn't bring it about, it has no meaning. So I say: what am I to do now to be free of control altogether? 克：我自己想要终结控制——你明白吗？—— 不是通过分析，因为那毫无结果， 那没有意义。 所以我说：若要完全摆脱控制，现在我该怎么办？
39:32 Q:Sir, to be free of dependence. 问：先生，要摆脱依赖。
39:38 K:That's only one part of it, sir, isn't it? 克：那只是其中的一部分，先生，不是吗？
39:40 Q:A part. 问：一部分。
39:49 K:I don't want a censor, me, the censor, who is always watching, operating - do this, don't do that, justifying, condemning, suppressing, controlling - you follow? - I want to kill that animal. [Laughs] Kill - you understand? - get rid of him, put him down the sewer, whatever you like. 克：我不想要审查者， 我、审查者，那个始终在审视、 在运作的人——这么做，不要那么做， 维护、谴责、压抑、控制——你明白吗？—— 我想杀了那个动物。【笑】杀掉——你明白吗？ ——除掉他，把他塞进下水道，无论你想怎样。
40:26 Q:It sounds very violent. 问：那听起来非常暴力。
40:29 K:[Laughs] It does but it isn't quite like that. 克：【笑】确实如此，但并不完全像这样。
40:34 Q:May I suggest, you know, something that goes through my mind, that perhaps freedom might involve not only freedom from dependence but also freedom to depend, to be dependent. That is, so often people feeling unfree are afraid to love someone as a lover or as a friend because in loving them... 问：我能不能建议，你知道，我脑子里闪过一个想法， 也许自由并不仅仅包括从依赖中解脱， 而且也包括依赖、去依赖的自由。 也就是说，感觉不自由的人们常常害怕去爱别人， 作为一个爱人或朋友去爱，因为在对他们的爱之中
41:02 K:They get entangled, they get frightened, they get jealous, so they say, 'Please, I won't.' That's another form of resistance. 克：他们纠缠于其中，他们变得害怕，变得嫉妒， 所以他们说，“拜托，我不会（去爱）。”那是另一种形式的抗拒。
41:15 Q:Still, if I see things as they are, there's no time for control. 问：还有，如果我如实地看到事情，其中就没有时间留给控制。
41:23 K:Why don't I see things as they are? 克：我为什么不如实看到事情呢？
41:49 Q:It seems like that happens when I get caught up in how I want things to be, then I lose touch with what they are. Because the 'me' gets in the way. 问：似乎当我困在我想要事情怎样之中时， 那种情况就会发生， 这时我就失去了与它们本身的联系。 因为“我”挡在了路上。
42:11 K:Sir, you're giving a lot of explanations, if I may point out, but you're not out of it. You're giving me, to a hungry man, a description of what food is. Give me food, not description. I see clearly in myself the censor operating, the observer which says: do this, don't do that - control. Now, I can go on like that for the rest of my life, knowing what the censor is, the past, the sense of wanting to be secure, respectable or non-respectable, and so on, so on, so on. Now, I really want to find out a way of living in which the censor doesn't operate at all, and yet have complete order. Otherwise life is disorder - which it is now. Right? So, what? There must be order - you follow, sir? - complete order, because if there is disorder, then the necessity of a censor. It's the censor who has created disorder. So, what? I see that very clearly, the danger of a censor. And also I see the danger that without the censor there might be total disorder, doing anything one wants. And the total disorder will inevitably create another kind of censor, so I'm back again. And also I know how essential it is that there should be order in life. I mean order in the sense not a blueprint, imitation, conforming to a pattern - that's all silly. So these are the things involved. If - not 'if' - when there is complete security, would there be the need of a censor? 克：先生，你给出了一堆解释，如果我可以指出的话， 你并没有从里面跳出来。 你在向我，向一个饥饿的人，描述食物是什么。 给我食物，而不是描述。 我在自己身上清楚地看到审查者在运作， 那个观察者说：这么做，不要那么做——控制。 那么，我可以余生继续这样生活下去， 知道审查者是什么，是过去，是想要安全感， 想要体面或者不体面，等等等等。 现在，我真的想要找到一种生活方式， 其中审查者完全没有运作， 而仍然有彻底的秩序。 否则生活就是混乱——现在就是。 对吗？那么，怎么办？ 必须要有秩序——你明白吗，先生？——彻底的秩序， 因为如果存在失序，就必然有一个审查者。 正是这个审查者制造了混乱。 那么会怎样呢？我非常清楚地看到了这一点，审查者的危险。 我也看到了另一种危险，即如果没有审查者， 也许会有彻底的混乱，人们为所欲为。 而这彻底的混乱不可避免地会制造出另一种审查者， 所以我又回来了。 同时我也知道生活中拥有秩序是多么重要。 我所说秩序的含义，不是蓝图、仿效、 遵从某个模式——那些都是愚蠢的。 所以这些是其中涉及的事情。 如果——不是“如果”——当有了彻底的安全， 还会需要审查者吗？
46:48 Q:I'm not sure I understand complete security. 问：我不太确定我是不是理解了彻底的安全。
46:51 K:My question. 克：我提出的问题。
46:53 Q:Complete security. What is complete security? 问：彻底的安全。什么是彻底的安全？
47:03 K:Does the censor arise because we are not secure - psychologically, physically, every way? We're not sane - let's put it that way. So sanity means total security. 克：审查者产生，是不是因为我们不安全 ——心理上、身体上，各个方面都不安全？ 我们不健全——让我们这么说。 所以健全意味着彻底的安全。
47:44 Q:Does it? 问：是吗？
47:48 K:I'm asking. I say yes. Sanity means total security, psychologically. 克：我在询问。我说是的。 健全意味着彻底的安全，心理上。
48:01 Q:Are you saying that or are you asking us? 问：是你这么说，还是你在问我们？
48:03 K:I'm saying it. [Laughs] [Laughter] 克：是我这么说。【笑】【笑声】
48:08 Q:[Inaudible] …security in the past. 问：【听不清】……过去中的安全。
48:12 K:Look, sir, yes, sir, I am still saying the same thing. 克：看，先生，是的，先生，我还在说同一件事情。
48:20 Q:What do you mean total security?

K:What do I mean by total security? 		问：你说的彻底安全是什么意思？

克：我说的彻底安全是什么意思？
48:25 Q:Is there such a thing? 问：有这回事吗？
48:29 K:I'm going to find out. Because the moment I'm completely sane there is no control. It's the neurotic that controls. Wait, let's go into it. Security. Our brain demands security, doesn't it? A brain can function efficiently, logically, sanely, when it's completely secure, safe. 克：我正要去弄清楚。 因为一旦我彻底健全了，就没有了控制。 神经质才会去控制。 等一下，让我们深入进去。安全。 我们的大脑需要安全，不是吗？ 大脑能够有效地、逻辑地、健全地运转， 是在它彻底安全的时候。
49:28 Q:Safe psychologically?

K:Yes, safe psychologically. 		问：心理上安全？

克：是的，心理上安全。
49:32 Q:Why would a completely sane mind demand… If you think in terms of security… Why would a completely sane mind even think in terms of security? 问：为什么一颗彻底健全的头脑会需要 如果你在考虑安全的话 为什么一颗彻底健全的头脑要从安全的角度考虑？
49:44 K:Otherwise insecurity, being insecure, brings all these problems. 克：否则就是不安全，感觉不安全，带来了所有那些问题。
49:55 Q:Well, isn't there security in a belief? 问：那么，信仰中不就有安全吗？
49:59 K:Wait, look. Look what happens. The brain, mind, wanting security seeks security in a belief, in neuroticism, in an illusion, in a formula. Right? Because it demands security, it's trying to find it in things that have no security. 克：等一下，你看。看看会发生什么。 大脑、头脑想要安全，在某个信仰中寻找安全， 在神经质、幻觉、模式中寻找安全。 对吗？ 因为它需要安全， 它就试图在没有安全的事物中找到安全。
50:29 Q:Okay, can it know where to find security? 问：好吧，那它知道在哪里能找到安全吗？
50:32 K:Wait, wait, we're going to find it, sir. Go at it! 克：等等，别急，我们要去弄清楚，先生。去发现它！
50:36 Q:But does that demand spring from an innate, proper demand of the mind or a neurotic demand of the mind? 问：但那种需要是来自于头脑的 一种天生的、合理的需要呢，还是头脑一种神经质的需要？
50:43 K:No it's a proper demand.

Q:Why is it? 		克：不，那是一种合理的需要。

问：为什么？
50:46 K:I'll show it to you in a minute. You will follow it. Go into it! You'll find out yourself. 克：我马上就指给你看。你会跟上的。 深入进去！你自己会发现的。
50:56 Q:Would you say that a total security would come from a complete lack of concern… a total inner security would come from a total lack of concern about security in relation to the outside world? 问：你会不会说彻底的安全 来自于彻底缺乏关心 内心彻底的安全感来自于彻底不关心 与外部世界有关的安全？
51:16 K:No, sir, no, sir, just look. Why do I seek security in a belief, in an opinion? Look, I do it, don't I? So it indicates the mind wanting security at any price. It seeks security in neurotic states. So the innate demand of the mind, psychologically, is to be completely secure. Otherwise no church would exist for a single minute, [laughs] nor the nationality, nor the class, nor the system, nor the belief, none of that would exist, if the brain, mind didn't seek all the time security, in relationship. Therefore it depends, and in that dependence, though there is pain, there is jealousy, there is anxiety, fear, apprehension, guilt, yet it tries to find in that, security. Right, sir? 克：不，先生，不，先生，只是来看一下。 我为什么在信仰中、在观点中寻找安全？ 看，我这么做，不是吗？ 所以，那表示头脑不惜一切代价想要得到安全。 它在神经质的状态中寻找安全。 所以头脑本身需要从心理上 能够彻底安全。 否则宗教连一分钟都无法存在，【笑】 也不会有国籍、阶级、体制、 信仰，那些东西一个都不会存在， 如果大脑、头脑不是始终在关系中寻求安全。 于是它依赖，而在那依赖中，尽管有痛苦， 有嫉妒、有焦虑、恐惧、担忧和愧疚， 它却依然试图在其中找到安全。对吗，先生？
52:51 Q:Isnt' it a cause of insecurity? The seeking for security itself is a cause of insecurity. 问：那难道不是不安全的原因吗？ 寻找安全本身就是不安全的原因。
52:57 K:But therefore… I'm saying the mind demands security. 克：但是因此……我说的是头脑需要安全。
53:03 Q:Sir, that means it's insecure. 问：先生，那意味着它不安全。
53:07 K:No, don't go to the opposite. We'll come to that. So how can you provide complete security? Otherwise all these acts are neurotic acts. 克：不，不要走到反面去。我们会谈到那一点的。 那么你怎样才能提供彻底的安全？ 否则所有这些行为都是神经质的行为。
53:19 Q:I still don't see that it is necessary to provide complete security, because the mind demands a lot of things... 问：我还是没看出来有必要 提供彻底的安全， 因为头脑需要很多东西
53:25 K:No, no, the mind demands a lot of silly things, but this is a basic thing. 克：不，不，头脑需要很多愚蠢的东西， 但这是一件基本的东西。
53:33 Q:[Inaudible]...insecure at the root, then your mind is always in two places at once. It can see something and it's also trying to resolve that insecurity. You're looking at something and some relationship's gone wrong, you can't look at it completely, you're still trying to solve the other thing. 问：【听不清】……从根本上不安全， 于是你的头脑始终同时处于两个地方。 它能看到某些东西，同时它也试图解决那种不安全。 你看着某件事情，某些关系出了问题， 你无法完整地去看它， 你还在试图解决另一件事。
53:50 Q:Sir, why does the mind demand this security? 问：先生，为什么头脑需要这种安全？
53:54 K:Why? Otherwise it can't function. It can't function efficiently, it can't be happy, it can't - you follow, sir? - joy… 克：为什么？否则它无法运转。 它无法有效地运转，它无法快乐，它无法 ——你明白吗，先生？——喜悦
54:06 Q:So the demand itself is not... 问：所以这种需要本身并不
54:08 K:No, it is not a demand, it wants it, it is its food. 克：不，这不是一种需要，它想要它，那是它的食物。
54:18 Q:Sir, isn't the confusion that we have identified security with certain states, or conditions, or ideas, or something? Therefore our whole notion of security is perverted. 问：先生，困惑之处在于，我们将安全等同于 某些状态、条件、观念或者某种东西，不是吗？ 所以我们关于安全的整个想法都是不正当的。
54:32 K:Yes, sir, that's what we're saying, obviously. Sir, if you're not secure physically, where are you going to get your next meal, you'd be spending all the time searching for it. So you must have physical security. Right? So, mind also says: please give me security, I must have it to function. And therefore we go off into all kinds of illusory securities. So you see, the mind seeks security in things that are not secure. 克：是的，先生，显然，那就是我们所说的。 先生，如果你物质上不安全， 你的下一顿饭在哪儿， 你会把所有时间都花在找饭吃上面。 所以你必须有物质上的安全。对吗？ 所以，头脑也说：请给我安全， 我必须有安全才能运转。 于是我们陷入了各种各样虚幻的安全之中。 所以你看，头脑在不安全的事物中寻找安全。
55:34 Q:You think what, sir?

K:Not secure, not safe, not whole. 		问：你怎么认为，先生？

克：不安全，不牢靠，不完整。
55:44 Q:Can the mind have security if you don't have physical security? 问：如果你没有物质上的安全，头脑能有安全吗？
55:48 K:No, sir. No, sir. It is seeking security and trying to find some place somewhere where it can be safe - my wife, my house, my property, my God, my nation, my belief - you follow? - my neurotic states. 克：不，先生。不，先生。 它在寻找安全，并试图找到某个地方 能让它安全——我的妻子，我的房子，我的财产， 我的上帝，我的国家，我的信仰——你明白吗？——我的神经质状态。
56:28 Q:Would you say that the security you're talking about is total freedom? 问：你会不会说 你所谈的安全就是彻底的自由？
56:34 K:Yes, sir, in a certain sense, yes. 克：是的，先生，在某种意义上，是的。
56:43 Q:Make sure that your needs are little. You are not easily threatened and you feel secure. Because you're not easily threatened because your needs are met. 问：确保你的需求很少。 你不容易受到威胁，于是你感觉安全。 因为你不容易受到威胁，因为你的需要得到了满足。
56:59 K:Sir, it means, doesn't it really: we live in a world of uncertainty. I am uncertain of my wife, my job, my gods, my values, everything is changing, changing, changing. Either I accept complete change, movement - and that very movement is security. 克：先生，那实际上意味着：我们生活在一个不确定的世界中，不是吗？ 我对我的妻子、我的工作、我的神明、我的价值观感到不确定， 一切都在变化、变化、变化。 要么我接受彻底的变化、运动 ——而那运动本身就是安全。
57:34 Q:[Inaudible] 问：【听不清】
57:42 K:The basis, the fundamental demand of a mind is to function efficiently, sanely, happily, clearly - you follow, sir? And it will seek through uncertainty, certainty, and so on, and on, and on. 克：头脑根本的、基础的需要 是有效地、健全地、快乐地、清晰地运作——你明白吗，先生？ 而它会通过不确定性来寻找确定性， 等等等等。
58:10 Q:Does that mean feeling the certainty right within the uncertainty? 问：那是否意味着就在不确定性中感受确定性？
58:17 K:Sir, when you say life is completely uncertain, that gives you a certain security.

Q:Yes. 		克：先生，当你说生活彻底不确定时， 那会给你某种安全感。

问：是的。
58:32 Q:Are you saying then that total security is still insecurity? 问：那你是不是说那种彻底的安全依然是不安全？
58:36 K:Yes. 克：是的。
58:42 Q:Knowing there is no security is the approach? 问：知道没有安全就是办法？
58:46 K:Is security. [Laughs] 克：就是安全。【笑】
58:50 Q:Sir, I'm wondering while we're here, I'm not hearing the questions… [inaudible] 问：先生，我怀疑我们在这个位置， 我听不到问题……【听不清】
58:58 K:Sir, won't you get nearer, I don't know… [Several inaudible comments] 克：先生，你不能靠近点吗，我不知道 【几句听不清的话】
59:08 Q:May I?

K:Yes, sir, yes, sir. 		问：我可以吗？

克：是的，先生，是的，先生。
59:10 Q:Go to my wife and sit next to her. [Laughter] 问：走到我妻子那里去，坐在她旁边。【笑声】
59:46 K:Security means to be in a state in which there is no choice at all. 克：安全意味着 处于一种毫无选择的状态中。
1:00:06 Q:Because choice is the control.

K:Of course, choice is the devil. Go on, sir, go on. 		问：因为选择就是控制。

克：当然，选择是魔鬼。 继续，先生，继续。
1:00:29 Q:Security is settled. Because you say, one says, 'Right, no choice.' Then one says, 'I mean no choice in order to be psychologically secure.' Where are you going to draw that thick line between the choice of, for instance, the people whom one will see and the people who one won't see, the choice of the place where one will be and where one will not be, and the choice of security? They still seem to overlap. 问：安全说完了。 因为你这么说，于是有人就说：“好，不选择。” 然后他说：“我的意思是为了心理上的安全而不去选择。” 你要在哪里画出这条粗线呢，例如， 在选择你想见的人 和你不想见的人， 选择你想去的地方和不想去的地方， 和选择安全之间，怎么画出界线来呢？它们似乎依然是重合的。
1:01:04 K:Does this operate that way? Do you think in those terms of choice and no choice? No. Then why do you introduce it? Mind, the brain cells themselves, demand complete security - that's really very interesting to go into it, and find it - you follow? And therefore it's playing a trick upon itself all the time. One generation, it believes in God, next generation, it doesn't believe in God. One finds for God the substitute of the State, and so on, and on, and on, and on, playing tricks upon itself, caught in its… And which all indicates a mind that says, 'I must have security at any price, otherwise I can't function.' And why doesn't it have that security? Will it have that security if it sees belief, formulas, patterns have no security at all? Which means not depending psychologically on anything. Can the mind see that when it is anchored in a belief, in a dependence? I don't know if you're following what I am saying. I depend on my wife, psychologically. I can see why I depend on her because - that needn't be explained, it's fairly simple. Now, a mind that is so dependent, will it see the danger of that dependence? And see the total insecurity of that dependence? And the very seeing of it is the denying of it. Can the mind do that? Being caught in the trap, to see it is a trap and break. 克：是这么运作的吗？ 你是从那样一个选择和不选择的角度来考虑的吗？ 不是。那么你为什么要引入它呢？ 头脑，脑细胞本身，需要彻底的安全 ——探索并发现这个问题真的非常有趣， ——你明白吗？ 所以它始终在跟自己玩一个把戏。 某一代，它相信上帝， 下一代，它不相信上帝。 有人发现了上帝的替代品——国家， 等等等等， 在自己身上玩把戏，并困在其中 这都表明，头脑说： “我必须不惜一切代价拥有安全， 否则我无法运转。” 而它为什么没有那种安全呢？ 它能否拥有那种安全， 如果它看到了信仰、准则 和模式毫无安全可言？ 那意味着心理上不依赖任何东西。 头脑能否看到这一点， 当它栖身于某个信仰、某种依赖之中时？ 我不知道你是否跟上了我说的话。 我从心理上依赖我的妻子。 我能看到我为什么依赖她，因为 ——这不需要解释，这相当简单。 那么，一颗如此依赖的心， 能否看到依赖的危险？ 看到那依赖彻底的不安全？ 而这看到本身就是对它的摒弃。 头脑能做到这一点吗？ 困在陷阱中，看到这是个陷阱并脱离出来。
1:04:27 Q:Not just that dependence but all dependence. 问：并不仅仅有那种依赖，还有其他的一切依赖。
1:04:30 K:One is good… we'll take that. 克：一个就够了……我们拿它做例子。
1:04:31 Q:And then there might be twenty-five others. 问：然后也许还有25种别的依赖。
1:04:33 K:I don't think there will be twenty-five others... 克：我不认为还有另外25种
1:04:36 Q:The job, the children, the bank balance, the neighbours. 问：工作、孩子、银行账户、邻居。
1:04:41 K:No, sir, no, no. No, that comes a little later. Those are all calculations afterwards. 克：不，先生，不，不。不，那是后来的事情。 那些都是后来的考虑。
1:04:54 Q:Why? 问：为什么？
1:04:57 K:But I'm saying: once I see very clearly the nature and the structure of dependence, in which the mind has taken security, and sees the danger of it, sees in that there is no security at all, and therefore is free from dependence and therefore secure, in the sense we are talking about, then it will say, 'What shall I do with my wife?' Then follows the action. But before that, we want to know what will happen, in action. I don't know… 克：但我说的是：一旦我非常清楚地看到 依赖的本质和结构， 头脑从中寻找安全，而看到它的危险， 看到其中根本没有安全， 因而从依赖中解脱出来，进而获得安全， 我们所说的意义上的安全， 然后它会说：“我该拿我的妻子怎么办？” 然后就是行动。 但是在那之前，我们就想知道行动中会发生什么。我不知道
1:05:44 Q:No choice doesn't mean no action… [inaudible] 问：没有选择并不意味着没有行动……【听不清】
1:05:50 Q:Action only starts when there's no choice. 问：行动只发生在没有选择时。
1:05:54 K:Oh, no, sir. I don't quite understand what you mean. I don't understand. 克：噢，不，先生。我不太明白你说的意思。
1:06:00 Q:You said the secure mind makes no choice, but it acts. 我不明白。 问：你说安全的头脑不做选择，但是它行动。
1:06:04 K:Obviously. A secure mind must act. But the action is not then a means of its own self-destruction, which it is now. 克：显然如此。安全的头脑必然会行动。 但是此时行动并非它自我毁灭的一种手段， 而现在正是如此。
1:06:26 Q:I am trying to understand no choice. I came here today; I wanted to be here. 问：我在试着弄懂没有选择是什么。 我今天来这里；是我想来这里。
1:06:35 K:And you say I won't do this and I won't do that. Because you wanted to be here, you said I won't do this, I won't do that, I want… 克：你说我不会这么做，我不会那么做。 因为你想来这里， 你说我不想做这个，我不想做那个，我想
1:06:44 Q:Well, there wasn't even a question of not coming. 问：哦，不来这样一个问题甚至都不存在。
1:06:46 K:Therefore, what's the... 克：那么，什么是
1:06:49 Q:So it seems like, you know, thinking-wise there wasn't a choice but somehow, like my organism chose. Like all of me chose to be here rather than to be someplace else. 问：所以，就好像，你知道， 觉得好像没有选择，但是从某种程度上说，好像是我的身体在选择。 就像我整个人都选择来这里，而不是去别的地方。
1:07:03 K:Did you choose between this and that? Choice implies this or that. 克：你在此或彼之间选择过吗？ 选择意味着此或彼。
1:07:11 Q:No, thinking-wise there are many other alternatives, many other places I could be - but not for me. 问：不，觉得还有很多其他的选项， 很多其他我可以去的地方——但不是对我而言。
1:07:22 K:Sir, let's leave - we'll come back to choice a little bit. This is really quite important, to see whether the mind can have this absolute sense of security. Therefore it can never go wrong - right? - therefore it has no choice. What shall I do? Because whatever it does is right. Sorry, this sounds dreadful! [Laughter] It's the neurotic mind that's always afraid of action. What is the right thing to do? Tell me what is right action, right way of thinking, right behaviour, right - you follow, sir? Which is all neuroticism. So can we… Let's go on. Shall we go on with this? Go on, sirs. Because this implies complete freedom, in which there is no control whatsoever. It's the communists who say to be free you must be disciplined - you know, all that business - therefore discipline yourself in order to be free. That's nonsense. I don't know if you're meeting all this. 克：先生，我们先不管——我们稍微回到选择这个话题上来。 这真的很重要，看到 头脑能否拥有这种绝对的安全感。 因此它永远不会走错——对吗？—— 因此它没有选择。我会做什么？ 因为它无论做什么都是对的。 对不起，这听起来很可怕！【笑声】 正是神经质的头脑总是害怕行动。 什么是正确的事情？ 告诉我什么是正确的行动，正确的思维方式， 正确的举止，正确——你知道吗，先生？这都是神经质。 所以我们能不能……我们继续吧。 我们可以继续这个话题吗？继续，先生们。 因为这意味着彻底的自由， 其中没有任何控制。 是共产主义者说若要自由你就必须受到约束 ——你知道，所有那些东西—— 所以为了自由，约束你自己。 那是胡扯。我不知道你是不是明白了这些。
1:09:18 Q:I feel a sense of… [inaudible] …a feeling for it. 问：我有一种感觉……【听不清】……对此有一种感觉。
1:09:26 K:No, sir, not accept. I mean, to have that, to have such a mind that is completely - you follow? - secure, protected, safe, sane, healthy, whole? [laughs] all these words. 克：不，先生，不要接受。我的意思是，拥有那个， 拥有这样一个头脑，它彻底——你明白吗？—— 安全、受保护、安然、 健全、健康、完整？ 【笑】所有这些词。
1:10:36 Q:You are speaking strictly in the psychological sense. You are not speaking in any physical sense, where there may be a strange city and a neighbourhood where it isn't safe to go, and you maybe sign up and go, that's… [inaudible] 问：你说的是严格的心理学意义上的。 你并没有提及任何物理层面的含义， 也许有个陌生的城市，有个社区 不那么安全， 而你也许签约了要去那里，那就……【听不清】
1:11:04 K:Choice implies a conflict, doesn't it, sir? Even there, why should there be conflict? I don't want to go to Los Angeles. That's the end of it. It's not a conflict of choice. I think this whole idea of freedom to choose has no meaning. So let's pursue this, sir. Please go into it. Let's see how this mind can be so completely secure, in the sense we are using, not… You see, because it is insecure it is violent. Choice is violence. Right? [Laughs] Of course, none of this can be accepted in the world, but, I mean, this is the truth. You see, to such a mind, space becomes tremendously important. No? 克：选择意味着冲突，不是吗，先生？ 即使这也要冲突，为什么要有冲突？ 我不想去洛杉矶。这就完了。 这不是选择的冲突。 我认为关于选择的自由这整个想法 都毫无意义。 所以让我们来深入探究这点，先生。请深入进去。 我们来看看 这个头脑如何才能彻底安全， 在我们所指的意义上，而不是 你看，因为它不安全，所以它暴力。 选择就是暴力。对吗？【笑】 当然，这一切都无法被这个世界所接受， 但是，我是说，这就是真理。 你看，对这一个头脑来说，空间就变得格外重要。 不是吗？
1:13:46 Q:[Inaudible] 问：【听不清】
1:13:48 K:Space. Space, sir, in the mind, to have space. How can a mind that is controlling, how can it ever have space? And therefore it's non-creative. I don't know if you want to go into all this. 克：空间。空间，先生，头脑中要有空间。 一颗在控制的头脑，怎么可能有空间呢？ 所以它没有创造性。 我不知道你们是否愿意深入这些问题。
1:14:12 Q:Because it is not free. 问：因为它不自由。
1:14:30 Q:The mind seeking security is always thinking in fixed, static things. When it stops thinking it sort of goes… 问：寻找安全的头脑总是在思考固定的、静态的事情。 当它停止思考，它就变得有点
1:14:38 K:That's just it. Is there security per se, in itself, or security in things? 克：就是这样。 是有本身独立存在的安全呢，还是事物中的安全？
1:14:47 Q:Per se. 问：本身的。
1:14:54 K:If there is security in something then I depend on that. You follow? And then the whole problem begins again. The mind in itself feeling completely secure - not in a quality, in a virtue, in capacity, in work, in action, in some form of social or ideological commitment, and so on. You understand this, sir? 克：如果某件事物中有安全，那么我就会依赖它。你明白吗？ 接着整个问题就又开始了。 头脑自身感觉彻底安全 ——不是在某种品质、某种美德中，不是在能力、工作、行动中， 不是在某种形式的社会或意识形态的承诺中，等等。 你明白这点吗，先生？
1:15:42 Q:The mind is then moving. There is no choosing. 问：那个头脑在行动。没有选择。
1:15:46 K:Now, how do we come upon such a mind, sir? Because unless this actually takes place then your discussion about it has no value. Because as we live now, it is disorder - right? - complete disorder. And the students, the young generation, throwing bricks, spitting on some people, and all the rest of it, is the demand for order, only they don't know what it means. And we are saying here that order is essential. And order means the understanding of disorder. The disorder is this finding security in things that will inevitably bring about disorder like nationality, class - you follow? - you know, all that stuff. Now, after explaining this, can the mind say now… look at this entirely and reject it totally? Not reject it as a choice but say, 'That's silly' - finished. 克：那么，我们如何遭遇这样一个头脑，先生？ 因为除非这真实地发生， 否则你对此的讨论毫无价值。 因为就像我们现在这样的生活，是混乱 ——对吗？——彻底的混乱。 而学生们、年轻一代，在对着别人扔砖头、 吐口水，以及诸如此类的事情， 这是对秩序的需要， 只是他们不知道秩序意味着什么。 而我们在这里说，秩序是极其重要的。 而秩序意味着对混乱的了解。 混乱是这种在事物中寻找安全的做法， 这不可避免地会带来混乱，比如国家、阶级 ——你明白吗？——你知道，所有那些东西。 那么，解释了这些之后，现在头脑能不能说 完全看到这一点并将其彻底摒弃？ 不是作为一个选择来摒弃，而是说：“那太愚蠢了”——结束了。
1:17:50 Q:I was wondering if you see that… 问：我想知道你是否看到
1:17:55 K:Seeing is… if you see the false - finished. 克：看到是……如果你看到谬误——结束了。
1:17:59 Q:I was wondering why I actually think I'm rejecting it… [inaudible] 问：我想知道为什么我确实认为我在摒弃它……【听不清】
1:18:06 K:I'm only using that as… Put it away, throw it out, it doesn't exist anymore. You see, that gives you tremendous vitality. I don't know… Because we are wasting our vitality, our energy in these insecure things. 克：我这么用只是说 把它抛弃、扔掉，它不复存在。 你看，这带给你非凡的生命力。 我不知道 因为我们把我们的生命力、我们的能量浪费在这些不安全的事物上。
1:18:36 Q:While you are thinking about them. 问：当你思考它们的时候。
1:18:39 K:And therefore we have no energy for this. 克：所以我们没有能量留给这个。
1:19:48 Q:[Inaudible] …and one somehow reaches the state where one doesn't have a choice anymore. Could one, on a given day, look back and say what I did yesterday or a few months ago was a mistake, it wasn't right? I ask that because one way that you put it, when you said one doesn't have a choice in that state is [inaudible]. 问：【听不清】……某人在某种程度上达到了那个状态， 此时他再也没有选择。 他能不能在某一天，回过头去看并且说： 昨天或者几个月前我所做的是错的，那是不对的？ 我这么问，是因为你的一个说法， 你说在那种状态下没有选择的人是 【听不清】。
1:20:27 K:That's finished, sir, it's over. Why go back to it? 克：那就结束了，先生，完了。为什么要回头去看？
1:20:36 Q:You might regret it. 问：你也许会为它感到遗憾。
1:20:45 K:Sir, this is really extraordinary, tremendous value this - you follow? - what we're talking about. Let us get at it. 克：先生，这真的是非同寻常，具有非凡的价值——你明白吗？—— 我们所说的事情。我们来理解它。
1:21:01 Q:But it does matter, I presume, very much what I'm going to do. 问：但我认为我要怎么办确实很重要。
1:21:09 K:No. No. What you're going to do is not do-ing. 克：不，不。你要做的是不做。
1:21:19 Q:You know, one of the things that led me to suggest that is that you said that one's being in a state where one doesn't have a choice leads to action, and I thought that the action that it led to was important, so that it was important what I do. 问：你知道，让我这么说的原因之一是 你说人所处的没有选择的状态 会带来行动， 而我认为那种状态带来的行动很重要， 所以我要做什么很重要。
1:21:46 K:It's important what you do, or rather, the importance is not what you do but the state from which you are do-ing. I have found security in belief, and from that I act: America is the greatest, etc., or my religion, etc., my experience is the only thing that counts - and from that I act. And that leads to disaster, war. So, what is the action of a mind that's completely secure - you're asking. Is this what you're asking?

Q:No. 		克：你做什么很重要，或者不如说， 重要的不是你做什么， 而是你做什么所发自的状态。 我在信仰中找到了安全，我从这里行动： 美国是最伟大的，等等。或者我的宗教，等等， 我的经验是唯一重要的事情——我从那里行动。 而那导致了灾难、战争。 所以，一个彻底安全的头脑 有什么行动——你问。 这是你的问题吗？问：不是。
1:23:05 Q:He said: is the action is important? 问：他说：行动重要吗？
1:23:08 K:No. Sorry. You didn't ask - I'm asking. Sorry, I'm asking. 克：不。对不起。你没有问——是我在问。对不起，是我在问。
1:23:19 Q:I take it from what you said that the answer might at least partly consist in saying that an action of one who is completely secure will… it won't too much matter what constitutes the action or what the consequences are. 问：从你所说的话中，我得出的答案 或许至少一部分是说，彻底安全的人 其行动会 是什么构成那行动，或者那行动有什么结果 并不是特别重要。
1:23:41 K:No, the action then, sir, is total inaction in the sense of… 克：不，那行动，先生，在某种意义上是彻底的不行动
1:23:47 Q:…choice. 问：……在选择的意义上。
1:23:49 K:I wonder if you… Because, sir, my mind… the mind then is being completely secure. Whatever it does is action. Right? And therefore that action is not borne out of the censor. And therefore there's no choice. What he does at the moment is right. This is too dangerous unless you understand the whole of this. 克：我想知道你是否 因为，先生，我的头脑 此时的头脑是彻底安全的。 它无论做什么都是行动。 对吗？所以那行动并非诞生于审查者。 因此没有选择。 他此刻所做的事情是正确的。 这太危险了，除非你懂得了这整件事情。
1:24:37 Q:Because if one makes a choice and says the choice is right, then... 问：因为如果你做了某个选择并且说那个选择是正确的，然后
1:24:40 K:Then you're off! 克：那你就完了！
1:24:45 Q:Whatever the choice, it's never right. 问：无论那个选择是什么，永远不会是正确的。
1:24:55 K:The whole religious idea, both in Asia and in Europe, and here naturally, is control, discipline, and eventually there you will sit next to God - you know the whole thing of it. And here we are saying, aren't we, that's a form of neuroticism in which the mind has found great security. Which is, it is living in an illusion which gives to it a form of security. But we see it as an illusion. And so I say to myself: am I living in an illusion? I am as long as I have any opinion, any judgment, any belief, any formula - I'm neurotic. Even if I depend on my own experience, I'm neurotic. [Laughs] 克：整个宗教观念，无论是在亚洲、欧洲， 还是这里，自然都是控制、约束， 还有最终你会与上帝比肩而坐 ——你知道那整部闹剧。 而我们在这里说，那是一种形式的神经质，不是吗， 头脑从中找到了巨大的安全。 也就是说，它活在给它带来某种形式的安全的幻觉中。 但我们看出那是一种幻觉。 所以我对自己说：我是生活在幻觉中吗？ 是的，只要我有任何观点、任何评判、 任何信念、任何模式——我就是神经质的。 即使我依赖自己的经验，我也是神经质的。【笑】
1:26:17 Q:I don't understand that. 问：我不明白这点。
1:26:21 K:Sir, what does experience mean? There are two meanings to it. Experience means to test, experiment and test. Experience also means to observe. And in the observation of the event or the thing that is taking place, learning from it is experience. Now, here someone is saying the mind needs complete security, and by observing the what is, the fact, the evidence, the event, it has learned a great deal, and experience is putting what it has learnt into test. All that implies experience, doesn't it? I've had an experience which has left some knowledge, and according to that knowledge I'm going to act. Which is putting that knowledge to test. Which means I am acting according to something that is past, dead. And therefore I'm seeking security in the past, which is knowledge. Look, sir, look, sir, I am seeking… mind is seeking security in knowledge, and knowledge is the past. So, that knowledge is always in conflict with the present. So I say no, I mustn't take security in the past, I must take security in the present. I'm lost. Security in the present is… I will live as… somehow - you follow? 克：先生，经验意味着什么？它有两个含义。 经验意味着试验，尝试和检验。 经验也意味着观察。 在对事件的观察中 或者对正在发生的事情的观察中， 从中学习的是经验。 现在，这里有个人说头脑需要彻底的安全， 通过观察现状、事实、 证据和事件， 它学到了很多， 而经验是把它学到的东西拿来检验。 那一切都意味着经验，不是吗？ 我有过一个经验， 留下了某些知识， 我打算根据那些知识来行动。 也就是把那些知识拿来检验。 那意味着我在根据过去的、僵死的东西来行动。 所以，我是在过去中寻找安全， 也就是在知识中寻找安全。 看，先生，你看，先生，我在寻找 头脑在知识中寻找安全，而知识是过去。 所以，那些知识永远与现在相冲突。 所以我说不，我不能在过去中寻找安全。 我必须在此刻获得安全。我迷失了。 此刻中的安全是 我会像……那样活着——你明白吗？
1:29:18 Q:It seems as if what you are talking about is trusting the continuous flow of experience. 问：听起来好像你说的是 信任经验的不停流动。
1:29:26 K:Not trust. If I may, I wouldn't use those words, 'trust.' Who is there to trust? Trust in what? And who is it says, 'I must trust'? 克：不是信任。如果可以，我不会用“信任”那些词。 谁去信任？信任什么？ 又是谁在说：“我必须信任”？
1:29:44 Q:Trust is expectation. 问：信任是期待。
1:29:48 K:No, this is really quite extraordinary if you go into this. You see? 克：不，这真的非同寻常， 如果你深入这个问题的话。你明白吗？
1:29:57 Q:[Inaudible]...doesn't the experience that you had before somehow get into your awareness of it? One has to think about it… …[inaudible] 问：【听不清】……难道你以前有的经验 不在某种程度上进入了你觉察的视野中吗？ 你得思考它…………【听不清】
1:30:07 K:No, because, look, sir, an event took place yesterday which has left a memory. That memory is my knowledge of that event. And according to that knowledge I'm going to act, or according to that knowledge I want more of it. Right? 克：不，因为，你看，先生， 昨天发生了一件事， 它留下了记忆。 那记忆是我对那件事的认识。 根据那个认识，我去行动， 或者基于那个知识，我想要更多的知识。对吗？
1:30:33 Q:[Inaudible]

K:No, no, see… Therefore I'm living in the past, and that is deadly! And therefore I'm living in the past as a means of security. Ah, see the beauty of it, sir. 		问：【听不清】

克：不，不，看到 因此我活在过去中，而那是致命的！ 所以我正活在过去，把它作为一种获得安全的手段。 啊，看看它的美，先生。
1:30:54 Q:You can totally drop that...

K:How can I drop it? 		问：你可以彻底丢掉那些……

克：我如何能丢掉它？
1:30:59 Q:You're not interested. It happened yesterday. 问：你不感兴趣。它是昨天发生的。
1:31:02 K:Wait, sir. Can the mind, as the event takes place, learn all about it, test it out, finish it? Not now finish it, finish it then. 克：等一下，先生。当事情发生时，头脑能否 去了解它的全部、试验它、结束它？ 不是现在结束它，是那时结束它。
1:31:16 Q:The next time when you approach a situation… 问：下次当你处理一种状况
1:31:18 K:No, don't say 'next time' - you're missing… Then you're already planning, which is going to act. Your plan is going to act, not the event is going to act. 克：不，不要说“下次”——你会错过 那么你就已经开始计划了，打算如何去行动。 是你的计划将要行动，而不是那件事情会行动。
1:31:35 Q:You then experience… [inaudible] 问：这时你会经历……【听不清】
1:31:39 K:No! Experience - we said this, sir - experience implies observation of what is, which is an event, an action, learning from it, which becomes the knowledge. That knowledge, according to that knowledge, we act. See what happens. There's a contradiction between the past and the present. So action is always in the past, or according to the past. So, not knowing that such action brings disaster, conflict, mind takes security in the past. Now, if I see that, see it, understand, see the truth of it, feel it, taste it, smell it, you know... 克：不！经验——这个我们说过了，先生—— 经验意味着观察现状， 也就是一件事情、一个行动，从中学习， 那会变成知识。 那知识，我们根据那知识，去行动。 看看发生了什么。 过去和现在之间有一种矛盾。 所以行动始终处在过去，或者根据过去来行动。 所以，头脑在不知道这样的行动会带来灾难和冲突的情况下， 会在过去中寻找安全。 现在，如果我看到了这一点，看到它，懂得、 看到它的真实，感受它，品尝它，闻到它，你知道
1:32:42 Q:When you reject it, isn't your mind… 问：当你摒弃它时，难道你的头脑不
1:32:43 K:It is finished! 克：它就结束了！
1:32:45 Q:But the mind is more sensitive then because you rejected it. 问：但此时头脑会更加敏感，因为你摒弃了它。
1:32:47 K:No, mind has become sensitive because it has observed, not because it has experienced. 克：不，头脑变得敏感，是因为它观察了， 不是因为它经历了。
1:32:54 Q:No, because you have observed it. It is a result of that experience. 问：是的，因为你观察了它。这是那个经验的结果。
1:32:57 K:No, I won't - sorry. It is not a result. Therefore I am observing all the time. 克：不，我不会——对不起。这不是一个结果。 所以，我始终在观察。
1:33:25 Q:Sir, in that observation, I would not be ready to come to… [inaudible] whole idea of security is illusion… [inaudible] there is no security, and that is the security… [inaudible] 问：先生，在那种观察中， 我无法轻易得出……【听不清】 关于安全的整个想法都是幻觉……【听不清】 没有安全，而这就是安全……【听不清】
1:33:48 K:Sir, we mean observation, a mind that is awake, that observes. And in that there is no security, observation is no security The mind can then say: in observation there is security. Which is, again, the mind is taking security, protection, safety, in observing rightly, and so on. 克：先生，我们说的观察是指， 一个清醒的、观察的头脑。 而那里面没有安全，观察不是安全。 这时头脑会说：在观察中有安全。 那还是头脑在寻求安全、 保护、保障，而且就在观察之中寻找，等等。
1:34:19 Q:Is that the same error?

K:Of course, it is. 		问：那是不是同样的错误？

克：当然，是的。
1:34:25 Q:Sir, is there a difference between observing and experiencing? 问：先生，观察和体验有什么不同吗？
1:34:33 K:It all depends what you call experience and observation. You can see it, sir. Let's look at it. I don't know - we'll find out. We said experience is something to be tested, something that must be tested. And also it means to observe the event, the occurrence, the what is, and learn from that, or accumulate knowledge from that. I realise… I observe the precipice - see how difficult this is - I observe the precipice, the danger of it, the experience of it, which is the testing of it, and I go away from the precipice. Right? That is an experience - the whole of it - the seeing of it, the testing of it, the learning the danger of it, which has become my knowledge, and therefore I won't go near a precipice, therefore I go away from it. All that is experience. Right? 克：那完全取决于你把什么叫做经验和观察。 你能看到这一点，先生。我们来看看。 我不知道——我们来弄清楚。 我们说经验是需要检验的东西， 必须得到验证的东西。 它同时也意味着观察某个事件、 观察发生的事情，观察现状， 并从中学习， 或者从中积累知识。 我认识到……我观察这个悬崖——看看这有多么难—— 我观察这个悬崖，它的危险，体验它， 也就是试探它，然后我离开那个悬崖。 对吗？这是一次经验——它的全部—— 看到它，试探它，懂得它的危险， 这变成了我的知识， 所以我不会再靠近悬崖， 所以我远离它。 这一切都是经验。对吗？
1:35:55 Q:I'm playing it up against something that I… 问：我在把这个想法用在我
1:35:58 K:See what has happened. Next time I meet a precipice, my conditioning, learning, I say, 'Don't go near - danger.' Right? Now, in that, memory of that, is secure now - in that there is great is security - I know. Snakes are dangerous, certain animals are dangerous, precipices are dangerous, and so on, so on. Now, here, mind is also seeking security, in experience, which is knowledge, which is the past. See the… I must have physical security of the precipice, and see the dangers of psychological security. You follow, sir? Right? Which means the mind has become so intelligent it says it must be there, it must not be here. You follow? There is not a contradiction. 克：看看发生了什么。 下一次我看到了一个悬崖，我的制约、知识， 我说：“不要靠近——危险。”对吗？ 那么，其中，对它的记忆中，现在就有安全 ——其中有巨大的安全——我知道。 蛇很危险，某些动物很危险， 悬崖很危险，等等等等。 现在，在这里，头脑还在寻找安全，在经验中， 也就是知识中、过去中寻找安全。 看到这 对于悬崖，我必须确保身体上的安全， 并看到心理安全感的危险。 你明白吗，先生？对吗？ 那意味着头脑变得如此智慧， 它说它必须在那里，不能在这里。你明白吗？ 其中没有矛盾。
1:37:24 Q:That sounds very important but I didn't understand it. Could you come again? 问：那听起来很重要，但是我并没有理解。 你可以再说一遍吗？
1:37:34 K:I'll put it differently, sir. Let's try it. Sir, what is intelligence? Let us approach it differently, that's all. What is intelligence? 克：我会换个方式说，先生。我们来试一试。 先生，什么是智慧？ 我们换个方式来着手，就是这样。什么是智慧？
1:37:55 Q:Are you asking me?

K:I am asking. What is intelligence? 		问：你在问我吗？

克：我是在问。什么是智慧？
1:37:59 Q:Well, I suppose…

K:Is it knowledge? 		问：哦，我觉得……

克：它是知识吗？
1:38:03 Q:No. 问：不是。
1:38:04 K:Is it refinement of knowledge, the more, more knowledge? You follow? Or is it a capacity? Wait. Don't agree. We'll go into it. Just explore it. Is it a capacity? Is it something that you accumulate? Is it something that is cultured, bit by bit, bit by bit - cultured, grown? Or is it a state of mind, a quality of mind that is sensitive to danger, to every form of danger - right? - not only physical danger - eating some food which disagrees with you and you keep on eating - which is lack of intelligence and then taking a pill after in order to get rid of that pain, but - you follow? - keeping that, that is total lack of intelligence. Seeing the danger of a precipice, that is intelligence. The danger of it. Now, the danger of a belief is intelligence. Right? 克：它是对知识的提炼，越来越多的知识吗？ 你明白吗？ 或者它是一种能力？ 等一下。不要同意。我们深入进去。来探索一下。 它是能力吗？是你积累的某种东西吗？ 是某种培养出来的东西吗， 一点一点地——培养出来的，增长起来的？ 或者它是一种心态，头脑的一种品质， 对危险敏感， 对每一种形式的危险都敏感 ——对吗？——不仅仅是身体上的危险 ——吃某种不适合你身体的食物，而且你还不停地吃—— 那是缺乏智慧， 还有然后再吃点药，以消除那种痛苦， 但是——你明白吗？——持续那样，那是彻底缺乏智慧。 看到悬崖的危险，那是智慧。 它的危险。 那么，看到信仰的危险，就是智慧。 对吗？
1:39:43 Q:Seeing the danger.

K:Seeing the danger of it. So, intelligence says I must have security… there is danger here and also there is danger there. Right? So intelligence is watching. And intelligence observes. In the observation, it experiences. And we mean by experience what we said just now, which is to test it in action. Which is to observe an event or actually what is going on, and see what is going on and not let it accumulate as knowledge and therefore in that knowledge take security and act from that knowledge. I mean, a man who acts from that knowledge is not balanced. A man who lives in the past and acts in the present with the past is unbalanced. I don't know if you… 		问：看到危险。

克：看到其中的危险。 所以，智慧说我必须有安全 这里有危险，那里也有危险。 对吗？所以智慧在守望。 而智慧也观察。 它在观察中体验。 我们这里说的体验就是刚才说过的意思， 是在行动中检验。 是观察某个事件或者观察实际上正在发生的事情， 看到发生着的事情，而且不让它作为知识积累起来， 进而从那知识中获得安全， 并根据知识去行动。 我的意思是，从那知识中行动的人是失衡的。 生活在过去，现在的行动中带着过去的人 是失衡的。我不知道你是否
1:41:09 Q:I see in that too there is no choice. I haven't seen that before. But there is no choice. Like, when I was trying to understand the two experiences, the experience of the precipice and the experience of psychological memory and pleasure, and all that...

K:Which is a danger. 		问：我看到那里面也没有选择。 以前我没发现这一点。但是确实没有选择。 就好像，当我试着去理解这两种经验， 对悬崖的经验， 和对心理记忆的经验 以及快乐和那一切……

克：那是危险。
1:41:23 Q:Here it just action - you just don't do this and you do something else, but there is not a choice there. 问：这里它只是行动——你就是不这么做， 你做些别的事情，但是没有选择。
1:41:26 K:No, no, no. Have I made, sir…? So, intelligence is the highest form of sensitivity, and that is complete… an intelligent mind is completely protected mind. Right? Right, sir? 克：不，不，不。先生，我是不是……？ 所以，智慧是最高形式的敏感，它是完整的， 一个智慧的头脑是彻底受到保护的头脑。 对吗？ 对吗，先生？
1:42:37 Q:It is protected in the sense that we have never seen protection before - there is no barrier there. It is not protected with a fence around it. 问：它受保护的含义是我们以前从未见过保护 ——那里没有栅栏。它并非因为周围有栅栏而受到保护。
1:42:42 K:No, no, no, no. 克：是的，是的。
1:42:49 Q:Sir? In coming to this security, perception, could…[inaudible] to see the fact that there is no security. 问：先生？在达到这种安全的过程中，洞察是不是……【听不清】 看到没有安全的事实。
1:43:13 K:Sir, either you see the fact with the past or you see the fact as it is now. If you look at it with the eyes of the past then there is choice, repression, control, conflict, dependence - all the rest of it follows. To see that one is angry, that there is anger - see how complex that is too - to see it without the word. Because the word is of the past. To name that feeling as anger is the conditioned response of the past. So to look at it non-verbally. Try it, do it, you will see. What extraordinary intelligence, which is its own discipline, is involved in that one little thing. 克：先生，要么你带着过去来看这个事实， 要么你现在如实看到这个事实。 如果你带着过去的双眼来看，那么就会有选择、 压抑、控制、冲突和依赖 ——诸如此类的一切都会接踵而至。 看到你生气了，看到有愤怒 ——也看看这是多么复杂——不带语言地看到。 因为语言属于过去。 将那种感受称为愤怒是来自过去的局限的反应。 所以不用语言地看到它。试一试，去这么做，你会看到的。 多么非凡的智慧，而智慧有它自身的纪律， 就包含在那一件小小的事情中。
1:44:36 Q:You see it viscerally.

K:[Laughs] Sir, is it time to stop? It is time, isn't it. 		问：你从五脏六腑内看到了它。

克：【笑】 先生，该结束了吧？到时间了，不是吗。
1:45:04 Q:Ten to six. 问：差十分六点了。
1:45:06 K:Oh! May I just finish this thing? We live in a certain centre. From a certain centre we live, act, think, feel. Right? This centre is this centre of choice. Right? This centre is repression, control, violence, all the rest of it. That is that centre. To move away from that centre completely to a different space and dimension is what we are trying to do. Right? To move from this to that is not act of determination. If there is determination then there is choice. See how difficult… You follow, sir? So, can I see this centre, can the mind see the centre for itself, without any past interfering with it? Which is to look at it without the whole structure of thought coming into it. Thought is the past therefore it is the censor. If the mind sees that, you are already… 克：噢！我可以就把这件事说完吗？ 我们生活在某个中心内。 从某个中心出发，我们生活、行动、思考、感受。对吗？ 这个中心就是选择的中心。对吗？ 这个中心是压抑、控制、暴力，以及等等的一切。 这就是那个中心。 彻底离开那个中心， 到达一个不同的空间和维度， 就是我们在试着做的事情。对吗？ 从这里走到那里，并不是决心的行动。 如果有决心，那么就会有选择。 看看这有多么难……你明白吗，先生？ 所以，我能否看到这个中心，头脑能否自己看到这个中心， 而不让过去从中作梗吗？ 也就是看着它， 而思想的整个结构丝毫没有介入。 思想是过去，所以它是审查者。 如果头脑看到这一点，你就已经
1:46:48 Right, sir, we had better stop. Tomorrow at 11 we will… 好了，先生，我们最好停下来了。明天11点，我们会