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ML70DSG4 - 保持认真却不抱持信仰
第四次小组讨论
美国，马里布
1970年3月15日



0:09 K:Shall we go on where we left off yesterday? Shall we go on where we left yesterday? I was wondering how to sustain a continuous seriousness. I think if we could go into that a little bit and come back to what we were talking about. Is it the intellect is not serious at all? A fragment of our life, which is already fragmented, seems to take supremacy over other fragments. The one fragment is this intellectual struggle, intellectual assertions, theories, formulas, what should happen, what should not happen - you know, the whole intellectual drama. And is the intellect really serious? Serious in the sense, a sustained total comprehension, which has nothing to do with formula, with theory, and belief. Can the intellect, a fragment, be ever serious? Serious in the sense, a continuous drive, a continuous, sustained observation without any distortion. And most of us are intellectually trained in a society that demands the intellectual output rather than a total output of the human being. I don't know if I'm conveying anything. Could we go into that a little bit? Why has this happened? Why has a part of me... has become so supreme - dictating how the body should behave, what it should eat, drink, smoke, sex - dictating everything, and dictating the morality, the virtue, the social behaviour, and the private behaviour at home, and so on - apparently, technologically and psychologically, it has become supreme. Why? Why has one part of this whole structure which is the 'me,' why has that become important? 克：让我们从昨天停止的地方继续，好吗？ 我们可以继续昨天的谈话吗？ 我想知道 怎样才能保持一种持续认真的态度。 我想我们是否可以先深入探讨一下这个问题，然后再回到 我们昨天讨论的内容。 智力是不是根本就不认真？ 我们生活的一个碎片，它本身已经是支离破碎的了， 似乎想凌驾于其他碎片之上。 这一个碎片就是这种智力上的挣扎， 智力性的主张、 理论、准则，什么应该发生，什么不应该发生 ——你知道的，这整个智力上的闹剧。 那么，智力确实是认真的吗？ 这里认真的含义是， 一种持久而完整的理解， 它与准则无关， 与理论、信仰无关。 智力，作为一个碎片，究竟能够认真吗？ 是这样的一种认真，一股持续的动力， 一种不间断的、持续的不带任何扭曲的观察。 但我们大多数人都从智力上接受训练， 来适应一个需要智力产出 而不是造就完整人类的社会。 我不知道我是否传达了什么给你。 我们可以再深入一点吗？ 为什么会发生这样的事情？ 为什么我的一部分 变得如此高高在上？ ——命令身体应该怎样行动， 它应该吃什么、喝什么、抽什么、性生活 ——掌控一切， 并且指挥道义、 美德、 社会行为， 以及在家里的个人举止，等等 ——很明显，从技术角度和心理角度， 智力变得至高无上。为什么？ 为什么这整个“自我”结构的一部分 变得如此重要？
5:09 Q:It seems to me that part of the reason is that we don't know how to use it properly. We don't understand what it's good for, how it works. 问：在我看来，一部分原因是 我们不知道怎样合理地使用智力。 我们不了解它善于做什么，它怎样工作。
5:23 Q:In the society a specialty wasn't it necessary to have the intellectual development, so the technical development, so we produce the goods. Now that we have the goods we don't need it; what we are doing is something that isn't necessary. 问：在社会中难道不需要有某一项专长， 不需要在智力上得到发展吗， 进而拥有科技进步，以便我们生产商品。 既然我们有了商品，我们就不需要智力了； 我们正在做的事情反而不是必需的。
5:36 K:Are you saying, sir, that technological development, which is the intellectual activity, has dominated the whole existence of man? 克：你是说，先生，科技发展， 作为智力活动， 已经支配了整个人类的存在？
5:49 Q:It was necessary because there wasn't enough to go around. 问：智力是必要的，因为供应还不充足。
5:52 K:Is that the reason?

Q:But we thought that. 		克：这就是原因吗？

问：但我们想到了这点。
5:56 K:Is that so?

Q:No. 		克：是这样吗？

问：不。
5:59 Q:Like that's part of controlling, it's part of... our whole culture wants to control nature using the intellect for that and each of us tries to control ourself using the intellect for that. 问：好像那是控制的一部分，它是 我们要通过智力控制自然这整个文化的一部分。 并且，为此目的，我们每个人努力用智力控制我们自己。
6:17 K:Sir, watch in yourself - if I may come back to oneself - why has the intellect taken such extraordinary importance in your life, in one's life? Leave society, culture, all that, out - why has it taken in one's life such vital import? 克：先生，观察你的内心——如果可以回到每个人自身的话—— 为什么智力在你的生活中， 在人的生活中占如此重要的地位？ 先抛开社会、文化等诸如此类的一切 ——它为什么在人的生活中如此至关重要？
6:46 Q:Isn't it that same demand for security we were talking about yesterday? 问：难道不同样是因为我们昨天谈到的 那种对安全的需要吗？
6:51 Q:Sir, we think our ideas are something that don't change. 问：先生，我们认为我们的想法是不变的。
6:58 K:Look into yourself, sir, look into yourself. Why have you given such... why has it taken such importance in my life, in your life? It hasn't in me, but I'm just asking: why has it? 克：看看你的内心，先生，看看自己的内心。 为什么你给它如此 为什么它在我的生活中，在你的生活中如此重要？ 它在我这里并不重要，但，我只是问，它为什么重要？
7:21 Q:Our training was that. 问：我们受到的训练就是这样的。
7:25 K:If it wasn't trained, wouldn't you do exactly the same thing? 克：如果它没有被训练，难道你就不会做同样的事情吗？
7:30 Q:I'm not living in the country, I think I might... 问：我不住在这个国家里，我想我可能
7:32 K:Ah, wait, sir, wait, sir, don't be so clear about it. I'm not at all sure you wouldn't. 克：啊，等等，先生，等一下，先生，不要如此撇清自己。 我根本不确定你不会那样。
7:38 Q:Living on a farm, milking the cows... 问：住在农场，挤牛奶
7:42 K:No, no. Even then there would be always, 'My cow is better than the other cow.' 克：不，不。即使那时也总是会有： “我的奶牛比别的奶牛好。”
8:01 Q:That's comparison then. 问：那是比较。
8:05 K:Comparison - why? Push it, sir, push it down and find out why. Why do you do this? You understand, sir, what is implied in this? The whole hierarchical outlook of life, on life - the better, the higher, the nobler, the limitation of the verb 'to be' - in that which we are caught. If you go into it you will see why we have given this thing such a diabolic importance. 克：比较——为什么比较？ 深入下去，先生，推进下去，弄清楚为什么。 你为什么这样做？ 你知道，先生，这其中意味着什么？ 关于生活、对生活的整个层级观念 ——更好、更高、更高贵， “成为”这个动词的局限性—— 我们正深陷其中。 如果你深入这个问题，你就会看到 我们为什么赋予这种事情如此疯狂的重要性。
9:04 Q:Because I can see one reason, it's because the past and the future are so important. We've made the past and the future very important - what will happen and what did happen. That's why we compare. It doesn't matter right now if you have a better cow, because what the whole image presents, what happened in the past and what's going to happen in the future. 问：因为，我能看到一个原因， 是因为过去和将来是如此重要。 我们将过去和未来置于非常重要的地位 ——什么将发生，和什么已经发生。 这就是我们比较的原因。 你是否拥有一头更好的奶牛，现在无关紧要， 因为整个影像所呈现的是， 过去发生的和将来要发生的事情。
9:33 Q:Sir, in order to see what you mean when you say that we live in the intellect, could you perhaps say what else there is to live in? 问：先生，为了明白你说的意思， 当你说，我们活在智力中， 你也许是在说我们还可以活在别的什么里面？
9:41 K:Ah, no... 克：啊，不
9:42 Q:Because if you say if we live in the intellect, I think that it may not be clear for us just what that means. 问：因为，如果你说我们是否生活在智力中， 我认为我们可能不清楚那究竟是什么意思。
9:51 K:That means, sir - it's fairly simple - the future, the ideal, the formula, the belief - the whole structure of what should be - the utopia, the ideal, the perfect state, the perfect God, the perfect disciple, the perfect master, the perfect - you follow? 克：那句话的意思是，先生——其实很简单—— 未来、理想、规则、信仰 ——这整个“应该如何”的结构—— 乌托邦、理想、完美的状态、完美的上帝、 完美的纪律、完美的大师，完美的——你明白吗？
10:17 Q:The controller you were talking about. 问：你谈到过的那个控制者。
10:18 K:Yes. 克：是的。
10:20 Q:Which means we're living for something. 问：那意味着，我们为某种东西而活着。
10:25 K:Don't... See what is happening, sir, and from that you'll find out. 克：不要……看看发生着的事情，先生，从那儿你就能有所发现。
10:34 Q:Your question of why - I've seen a lot of children. I've seen, experience with a lot of children and children almost always compare themselves with others - they say, 'My muscles are bigger than yours, my father is stronger than yours.' It seems to me it's a part of... that everybody grows up with that universally. And we have to then, through understanding, work it out. [Inaudible] 问：你问为什么——我见过很多孩子。 我见过、体验过跟很多孩子在一起的情形， 孩子们几乎总是将自己与别人比较 ——他们说：“我的肌肉比你强壮， 我父亲比你父亲强壮。” 对我来说，它是一部分 它普遍地伴随着每个人的成长。 然后我们需要通过理解，来解决这个问题。 【听不清】
11:03 K:Dr Weininger, you live - if I may be a little bit... not being personal, but... - you live in the intellect, don't you? 克：威宁格博士，你生活——也许我有点 不是针对个人，而是 ——你生活在智力中，不是吗？
11:11 Q:Yes.

K:Why? 		问：是的。

克：为什么？
11:13 Q:In what way?

K:Ideation. 		问：以什么方式？

克：通过思维。
11:17 Q:Not so much.

K:No, no, no! Not so... not at all or... [laughs] you can't have a little and not so much. But let us see. 		问：不太多。

克：不，不，不！不太 根本没有或者……【笑】你不能有一点而不太多。 但是我们来看看。
11:27 Q:Yes. 问：好的。
11:29 K:You do live in... we do live in the... Why? 克：你确实生活在……我们确实生活在智力中……为什么？
11:42 Q:Because there's seeming security. 问：因为那里似乎存在安全感。
11:49 Q:But why? We really don't know why. 问：但为什么呢？我们真的不知道为什么。
11:52 K:Don't you?

Q:I don't think so. 		克：你不知道吗？

问：我认为不知道。
11:54 K:We'll find out. We'll find out. 克：我们会弄清楚的。我们会找出答案。
12:02 Q:It seems like a lot of it is to be in touch with other people, to communicate. 问：似乎其中很大一部分是去接触 其他人、去交流。
12:08 K:But we're not at all in touch with other people. 克：但我们实际上与其他人根本没有接触。
12:11 Q:It has the opposite effect. 问：它具有相反的效果。
12:12 K:Quite the opposite effect - it is an isolating process. I've isolated myself - my image, my formula, my God, my this, and over that I look at somebody else, but still there is the wall. 克：正好相反的效果——它是一个隔离的过程。 我把自己隔离起来 ——我的形象、我的规则、我的上帝、我的这个， 隔着那些我去看其他人，而那道墙仍然在那儿。
12:34 Q:When we answer why, it seems every time we say something we're guessing in a way. We're seeing if what we say actually meets with our experience. It doesn't seem like we're getting anywhere. 问：当我们回答为什么的时候，好像每次我们说出点什么的时候， 我们是在以某种方式进行猜测。 我们在看我们说的与我们的经验实际上是否相符。 看起来我们并没有理解什么。
12:44 K:Yes, sir, watch it, sir. Look, go a little bit, sir. You're too verbal, if I may say so - go slow. That means we are living in the future, aren't we? The ideal, the formula, what should be, the better, is always over there. Right? Why do I live that way? 克：是的，先生，观察一下，先生。看一看，深入一点，先生。 你太依赖语言了，请允许我这样说——慢慢来。 那意味着我们生活在未来，不是吗？ 理想、规则、应该如何、更好， 总在那儿起着作用。对吗？ 我为什么以那种方式生活？
13:27 Q:[Inaudible] 问：【听不清】
13:37 K:I live in the past and in the future - right? - I live in my memories, in my imagination, in my hopes, fears - they are always the past, despair, except hope in the future. So living in the past, mustn't it inevitably create a future of idealistic hope? I don't live now but the past and the future. I don't know what it means to live now. I really don't know. So there is the past and the future. Would that be right, sirs? Past and the future. And - go on - why do I live in the past? I know nothing else but the past. What I want to know about the future is the hope, which is its own hell. Right? So that's all. Why do I live this way? 克：我生活在过去和未来——对吗？—— 我生活在我的记忆中， 我的想象中、我的希望中、恐惧中 ——它们始终属于过去，绝望， 除了希望属于未来。 所以，生活在过去， 难道不是必然会创造一个带理想性希望的未来吗？ 我不生活在现在，而是生活在过去和未来。 我不知道生活在现在意味着什么。 我确实不知道。 所以就有了过去和未来。 对吗，先生们？ 过去和未来。 那么——继续下去——我为什么生活在过去？ 除了过去我不知道其他东西。 关于未来我想知道的就是希望， 而那是它自身的地狱。 对吗？所以就是这样。我为什么这样生活？
15:33 Q:Yesterday we talked about the fact that there was uncertainty in the present and that... 问：昨天我们谈到过那个事实， 即现在存在不确定性
15:43 K:Ah, ah, I didn't say uncertainty in the present. I want to be certain in the present. 克：啊，啊，我没说现在的不确定性。 我想现在处于确定状态。
15:51 Q:Secure.

K:Secure. 		问：安全。

克：安全。
15:52 Q:Secure. Again, that security. And there seems to be security in the past because it's something that's known. So we cling to that. 问：安全。又是那个安全。 并且似乎在过去中存在安全， 因为它是已知的东西。 所以我们紧紧依附其上。
16:04 K:We cling to that and yet I'm living in the future. 克：我们依附着过去，然而我又生活在未来。
16:08 Q:Projecting. 问：投射。
16:10 Q:Living for the future might be better... 问：为将来而生活，可能更好
16:12 K:All right, living for the future - what should be. The function of the intellect apparently is to live in the past, as it has acquired knowledge, add to the past through the present, and that's living, that's intellectually operating, functioning - scientifically, technologically, every way. And the dissatisfaction of the past is the hope of the future. Because the mind can't be completely satisfied living in the past. Right? Then what? 克：好吧，为将来而生活——应该怎样。 显然智力的功能 就是生活在过去，因为它获得了知识， 通过现在往过去中添加内容， 而那就是生活，那是智力在操作、在运行 ——以科学的方式、以技术的方式，各种方式。 并且，对过去的失望就是对未来的希望。 因为头脑不完全满足于生活在过去。 对吗？然后会发生什么？
17:34 Q:Is it because of the element of time? 问：那是不是因为时间因素？
17:39 K:That is time. After all, living in the past is time, and the future is time. We're asking, sir, aren't we, why has the intellect become so extraordinarily important? 克：那就是时间。归根结底，生活在过去就是时间， 未来也是时间。 我们在问，先生，不是吗， 为什么智力变得非常重要？
17:58 Q:That includes the emotions, when you say the intellect? 问：当你说智力的时候，是否也包括情绪？
18:01 K:No. It controls the emotions. It says, 'That's good to have good emotions' - you follow? 克：不，智力控制情绪。 它说：“有好的情绪，那就很好”——你明白吗？
18:08 Q:A thought, a prejudice is an emotion, a feeling. It's a strong thought. 问：思想、偏见是一种情绪、一种感受。 是一种很强烈的思想。
18:14 K:Strong thought. I don't... 克：强烈的思想。我不
18:18 Q:So the intellect is not distinct from the emotions. 问：所以智力和情绪并不是分开的。
18:20 K:I don't like him.

Q:Yes, that's also emotion. 		克：我不喜欢他这个人。

问：是的，那也是情绪。
18:24 K:No, wait, sir, look. Is it? 克：不，等等，先生，再看看。是那样吗？
18:26 Q:Because he did something, because he is a threat... 问：因为他做了什么事情，因为他是一个威胁
18:29 K:I don't like him because he has this. It's a conclusion made by the intellect, a thought, and the thought doesn't like that, and so on. So, let's... we'll come to the feeling presently. 克：我不喜欢他，因为他有这个。 那是智力得出的结论， 一个想法， 并且那个想法不喜欢那样，等等。 所以，让我们……我们现在就去了解这个感受。
18:50 Q:Because when you say intellect, people tend to think perhaps you're talking about abstract thinking and cerebral activity. 问：因为当你说智力的时候， 人们倾向于认为 你可能在谈论抽象的思想和大脑的活动。
18:58 K:No, no, no, sir. No, no. 克：不，不，不是，先生。不，不是。
18:59 Q:The intellect which acts in our life, acts in our lives as strong feeling, and strong prejudice, and drive. And that's emotion. But if I just think, it has no meaning, but when I think with feeling then it does mischief, then it divides, then it projects into the future. 问：在我们生活中发挥作用的智力， 在我们的生活中表现为强烈的情绪、强烈的偏见和冲动。 那就是情绪。但如果我只是想一想，那没有什么意义， 但当我带着感情思考的时候，它就会造成伤害、造成分裂， 就会投射到未来。
19:18 K:That is so. Then what? 克：就是如此。然后呢？
19:20 Q:Sir, when you say intellect, are you saying intellect as distinct from emotion or are you saying the intellect which includes emotion and emotional response? 问：先生，当你说智力的时候， 你是不是说智力与情绪是有区别的， 或者你是说智力 包含着情感和情感反应？
19:30 K:Yes. Let's include emotion for the moment. Let's be clear. We include emotion into it - prejudice, like, dislike. Now, wait a minute.

Q:Yes, part of the same thing. 		克：是的。我们暂时将情感包括在内。让我们理清思路。 我们将情感包含进去 ——偏见、喜欢、不喜欢。 现在，等一下。

问：是的，同一件事物的一部分。
19:43 K:Why is this happening all the time in me, in us? 克：为什么这一直在我身上、在我们身上发生？
20:03 Q:Sir, as the mind biologically must have security, as you mentioned, is it possible that in a similar fashion the organism is striving for perfection, psychically, reaching... [inaudible] 问：先生，因为头脑从生物角度上 必须拥有安全，如你提到过的， 是否可能是这样：以类似的方式， 生物体要争取完美， 从心理上，达到……【听不清】
20:43 K:But that perfection is always in the future, striving always to achieve the goal which it has invented. 克：但是那个完美永远在未来， 总是努力去实现 自己发明的目标。
21:00 Q:If we say he we're striving for security... 问：如果我们说我们在为安全而努力
21:03 Q:And how about pleasure? It seems to be related to pleasure then. 问：而快乐呢？好像与快乐也有关。
21:08 Q:[Inaudible] 问：【听不清】
21:20 K:Is one aware that the intellect, in which is included all this business, that it predominates our life? 克：你是否觉察到了， 包含所有这些把戏的智力 主宰了我们的生活？
21:30 Q:Yes.

K:Then why? 		问：是的。

克：那么，为什么？
21:36 Q:Is it not a search for significance? 问：难道不是对意义的追求？
21:44 K:Significance to life - to life that has no meaning. A life of striving - you know, all the rest of it - and therefore in that there is no meaning, therefore intellect strives to give a significance or a meaning to it, to live differently. This is a dull stuff, life is, and I'll invent a meaning to it which will make it interesting. That's all. 克：生活的意义——这种生活没有意义。 一种费力的生活——你知道，诸如此类的一切—— 所以，其中没有意义， 所以智力努力想要赋予生活某种意义， 过另外一种生活。 这是一件无趣的事情，生活就是，所以我要为它发明某种意义， 使它有趣。这就是全部的把戏。
22:19 Q:And I strive some more. 问：而我努力想要得到更多。
22:23 Q:Sir, I think... [inaudible] You mentioned how the mind must have security... [inaudible] 问：先生，我认为……【听不清】 你提到过头脑为何必须拥有安全……【听不清】
22:37 K:Not 'I mentioned,' sir, it is. I mean... 克：不是“我提到过”，先生，就是那样。我的意思是
22:40 Q:It is. But you stated it. I mean, we know that the body will compensate if you lose one kidney the other one will grow to twice the size. This is compensation. Is it possible that there is this psychic built-in aim for compensation in that sense, but we find the wrong ways to do it, as we do with the mind seeking security? 问：就是那样。但你表述过。 我的意思是，我们知道身体自己会补偿， 如果你少了一个肾，另外一个肾将长成两倍大的尺寸。 这就是补偿。 是否可能存在 为了进行这种意义上的补偿，心智从内在建立起某个目标， 但我们找到的办法是错误的， 因为我们通过寻求安全的头脑去实现那个目标？
23:39 K:Sir, seeking security and being secure are two different things, aren't they? 克：先生，寻求安全和处于安全之中 是两回事，不是吗？
23:43 Q:Yes. We... 问：是的。我们
23:45 K:Ah, no, no, no - we are seeking security, and we said seeking security does, you know, create this mischief.

Q:That gives me insecurity. Seeking security is the insecurity.

K:Is insecurity. Whereas to be completely secure, it's finished. It's not that I am seeking security and therefore finding it and clinging to it. 		克：啊，不，不，不——我们在寻求安全， 而我们说过寻求安全确实， 你知道，制造了这些伤害。

问：这让我不安全。 寻找安全就是不安全。

克：是不安全。 然而若处于彻底的安全之中，那就结束了。 不是我要寻求安全 因而找到了安全，然后再依附上去。
24:12 Q:The mind must have it, as was mentioned, must have it. And there is something comparable psychically, because... [inaudible] at this point there isn't a counterpart to this perfection aspect as there is for the security aspect, but we take the wrong path... 问：头脑必须拥有安全，就像提到过的那样，必须拥有。 并且身体上存在某种可与之相比的东西， 因为……【听不清】 而在这一点，并不存在一个对等于 这个完美方面的东西， 就像在安全方面存在的那样， 但我们采取了错误的途径
24:57 K:I understand that, sir. Yes, I understand. 克：我理解那个，先生。是的，我理解。
25:05 Q:The biologists say that thought developed in evolution, based on fear. Fear was the basis for evolutionary development of thought. 问：生物学家说那个思想是在进化中基于恐惧产生的。 恐惧是思想进化的基础，
25:19 Q:Fear is itself a thought. 问：恐惧本身就是一种思想。
25:28 Q:So you are asking, sir, why one lives in the intellect and why there is this perpetual struggle. 问：所以你问，先生，为什么人生活在智力中 以及为什么存在这种无止境的挣扎。
25:36 K:You haven't answered me. [Laughs] 克：你没有回答我 。【笑】
25:38 Q:But isn't that question itself, does it pose a creation of the intellect? 问：但难道不是那个问题本身，导致了智力的产生？
25:45 K:Yes. But I'm saying - and that's only to verbalize a fact that we do live in it - but the thing one has to find out, why has this become so colossally important? 克：是的。但我说的是 ——那只是将我们生活在智力中的事实用语言表达了出来—— 但你必须弄清楚的事情是， 为什么它变得无比重要？
26:04 Q:But what it seems like we're doing, what I'm doing, is that I'm looking at that question with the intellect, and as long as we look at it with the intellect then we're trying to verbalize and trying to do all this. It's the wrong way all the time. We're giving evaluations and analysis of it, of the question, and our experience, but we're still caught in it. No matter what we're doing here, we're still caught in it. 问：但似乎是，我们在做的，我在做的， 是我在用智力看这个问题， 并且，只要我们用智力来看它， 那么我们就会尽力言语化，努力去做这一切。 这条道路始终是错误的。 我们在评估和分析它， 分析这个问题，和我们的经验，但我们仍然被困其中。 不论我们在这里做什么，我们仍然身陷其中。
26:42 K:Then, sir, let's look at it round the other way: What is living? There's the body, the whole organism with all its complex demands, the glands, all that - both biological and psychological, the imposition of the psyche on the body wishing it should be this, it should act this way - and all the emotional nature, in which is included pleasure, enjoyment, the delight of looking at... and so on, so on - there's love, and there's the intellect - intellect which reasons, looks, observes, says this is right, this is wrong, evaluates and says, 'I should have done this' - all that. Why doesn't all the three - the organism, love, mind - all work together? Why this one? Why doesn't the whole thing work harmoniously, you know, like a good machine that's ticking over? It cannot be harmonious as long as one is large or enormous, or one is important than the others. I wonder if the intellect has assumed supremacy because it has conceived security in terms of the past or the future. And therefore no security in the present at all. You follow? It says I've had food today, I must have food this evening. So it struggles to have food this evening, and tomorrow. I must have my pleasure, my sex - all tomorrow. Go on, sirs, let's work it out. Or is living in the past, in which there's been security, and that desire to have permanent security in the future - as I want tomorrow, food - has built this idea, has made the intellect enormously important. Therefore it dominates love, it dominates the organism, it dominates everything. And how does it come about that the three - psychosomatic and plus - live harmoniously, completely - you follow? not one against the other, battling? How do you do this? How do you bring this about? You see, we live - ah, I'm getting somewhere - we live in a centre created by the intellect - right? - centre of ideas, self-centred movement, which is still the intellect, the centre which is self-perpetuating, self-centred activity - that's the centre we live in. And that centre must break up, as it does, as we see it operating in ourselves - that centre is breaking it up all the time - I must live differently, I must be different - you follow? - this should not be, this should be. Now, how to break down that centre and live in the whole, not in a part? I don't know if I am making myself clear. 克：那么，先生，让我们换另外的方式来看这个问题：生活是什么？ 有身体，这整个有机体及其所有复杂的需求， 那些腺体，诸如此类 ——生理的和心理的， 心智强加给肉体的东西， 希望它应该如此，它应该如此行动 ——以及所有情绪化的特性， 其中包括欢乐、享受， 看到……的兴奋等等，等等 ——有爱，有智力—— 智力进行推理、看、观察， 说，这是正确的，这是错误的， 评价并且说：“我应该这么做”——诸如此类。 为什么这三个 ——有机体、爱、头脑——不能完全一起工作？ 为什么是这个？ 为什么这个整体不和谐工作，你知道， 像一部运转着的好机器那样？ 它无法和谐运转， 只要其中一个是大的或巨大的， 或者一个比其他的更重要。 我想知道智力占据了至高无上的地位， 是不是因为它根据过去和未来 设想出了安全。 所以现在完全没有安全可言。 你明白吗？ 它说我今天有了食物，我今晚必须有食物。 所以它努力保证今晚和明天要有食物。 我必须有我的快乐、性——明天一切也都要有。 继续，先生们，让我们找出答案。 或者正是生活在过去， 在过去中存在安全， 以及在未来拥有永久安全的渴望 ——就像我想要明天有食物——造成了这种想法， 使智力变得无比重要。 所以，智力控制着爱，它控制着肉体， 它控制了一切。 那么，怎么能够实现这三个 ——身心以及其他——和谐地、完整地生存 ——你明白吗？ 而不是彼此之间互相交战？ 你怎样做到这点？你怎样实现这点？ 你看，我们生存——啊，我们到了某个地方—— 我们生活在一个 智力创造的中心之内——对吗？—— 思想的中心，自我中心的运动， 那仍然是智力， 那个中心是自我延续的， 以自我为中心的活动——那就是我们生活的中心。 而这个中心必然会破碎，正如它所实际发生的， 正如我们看到的它在我们内心运作的那样 ——那个中心始终在将自己弄得支离破碎—— 我必须过不同的生活，我必须不同——你明白吗？—— 这不应该，这应该。 那么，怎样破除那个中心， 从而生活在整体中，而不是生活在部分中？ 我不知道我是否表达清楚了。
32:58 Q:Your first question interested me very much: how do you sustain a seriousness when most of us here are living in the present right now, with you, and when we leave the environment seduces us... [inaudible] and the sustained seriousness that we have here doesn't sustain. 问：你的第一个问题让我非常感兴趣： 你怎样保持一种认真， 当我们这里的大多数人正与你一起生活在此刻， 而当我们离开时，环境会引诱我们 【听不清】 我们在这里能保持的认真就不能继续保持了。
33:20 Q:Well, just this instance, I could see my interest falling the other way, and the question drops. 问：哦，就是这个例子，我能看到我的兴致转移了， 那个问题就被丢下了。
33:34 K:Sir, could we put the whole question differently? How does it happen that one can live harmoniously, so that one or the other is not overdeveloped, one or the other is not in conflict, but function, live, act as a whole, sane, holy thing? 克：先生，我们能否以不同的方式提出这个问题？ 一个人能够和谐地生活，这是怎样发生的， 这样他或者别人就不会过度发展， 他或者别人就不会处在矛盾中， 而是运行、生活、行动， 作为一个完整的、理智的、神圣的个体？
34:23 Q:I see that something like building up your muscles, you said... 问：我发现比如锻炼肌肉这样的事情，你说过
34:26 K:No, no. No. That means time. I have no time - I'll be dead tomorrow. 克：不，不，不。那意味着时间。 我没有时间——我明天就要死了。
34:34 Q:No but what I'm saying is: I see that... you say overdeveloped... 问：不，但我说的是：我发现……你说过度发展的
34:39 K:No, sir. No, no, no. Look, sir, we said the intellect dominates, subjugating the affection, physical organ, and so on. I want, I'm asking myself: how does it happen that one can be completely harmonious? Not an idea of harmony which is in the future, but harmonious now? Because from there I can create - you follow? - I can write. Everything will come right. 克：不，先生。不，不。你看，先生，我们说过智力支配、 压制情感、身体器官，等等。 我想要，我在问自己： 一个人能够完全和谐，这是怎么发生的？ 不是未来关于和谐的一个想法， 而是现在就和谐？ 因为以此为基础我能创造——你明白吗？—— 我能写。所有事情都会正确地发生。
35:37 Q:We have to quiet this giant muscle which is the intellect that you are talking about.

Q:That's what I'm saying. I am saying we are developing all of the time - we have to stop... 		问：我们必须让智力这块发达的肌肉安静下来， 你所谈的智力。

问：那就是我说的意思。 我说的是，我们一直在锻炼——我们得停下来
35:44 K:No, no, no, no. No, 'we have to stop' means resistance. 克：不，不，不，不是。 不，“我们得停下来”意味着抵抗。
35:51 Q:Which way to stop? 问：用哪种方式停止？
35:55 K:We have to dominate it, we have to put it down - all that is again, we are off. 克：我们不得不控制它，不得不让它安静下来 ——一切还是原样，我们出局了。
36:04 Q:I see one can't do that because that's building it up too. 问：我发现，人无法那么做是因为那又是在加强它。
36:07 K:No, no, no. That's not my question anymore. My question is now: how can this harmony take place? Knowing the other thing is overdeveloped. Which means a life in which there is no conflict at all. Conflict is violence, you know, all the rest of it - so how does this happen? Has it anything to do with awareness? 克：不，不，不。那不再是我原来的问题了。 我刚才的问题是：这样的和谐怎样才能发生？ 知道了另一样东西是过度发达的。 那意味着一种根本没有冲突的生活。 冲突就是暴力，你知道，诸如此类的一切 ——那么，这样的和谐如何发生？ 它与觉察有关吗？
37:37 Q:Sir, it has to do with that we are not being aware. 问：先生，它肯定与我们没觉察到有关。
37:46 K:No, no, I'm asking, sir, I'm asking: disharmony, because we live in disharmony, to come upon this harmony, I'm asking myself if awareness is the key to it. 克：不，不，我是在问，先生，我在问： 不和谐，因为我们生活在不和谐中， 要遭遇这和谐， 我在问我自己觉察是不是其中的关键。
38:07 Q:Awareness of the disharmony? 问：对不和谐的觉察？
38:11 K:No, no, no, forget, forget - you see, you're all translating immediately into something else. Awareness of disharmony in order to be harmonious. I don't mean that. I'm asking if awareness is the key that brings about, naturally, harmony. 克：不，不，不，忘掉，忘掉——你看， 你总是立即诠释成别的什么东西。 为了和谐而认识到不和谐。我不是这个意思。 我在问，是否觉察是那个关键， 它能自然地带来和谐。
38:39 Q:Sir, is awareness an intellectual process? 问：先生，觉察是个智力过程吗？
38:44 Q:Awareness of what, sir? Because the businessman who is generally sharp and cunning is in his way tremendously aware.

K:No, sir. 		问：觉察什么，先生？ 因为商人一般都是思维敏捷的、精明的， 以他的方式非常警觉。

克：不，先生。
38:51 Q:He's aware of the slightest advantage. 问：他能觉察到最细微的利益。
38:54 Q:Isn't she right? 问：她说的不对吗？
38:56 Q:Awareness of what?

K:I want to find... I'm going to... We are going to... I'm asking you first a question, sir, whether awareness is the key to this. I don't know what awareness is yet - we are going to find out, we're going to explore it. So far one has explored the reason of disorder and disharmony - the supremacy of one or the other, this supremacy of the soma, the body, or the supremacy of the intellect - emotion or the intellect, or the appetite against the intellect, and so on, so on, so on - the battle. And I say to myself: has awareness - you get it? - is the awareness that will bring harmony, that will make everything equal. 		问：觉察什么？

克：我想找出 我将……我们将 我先问你一个问题，先生， 觉察是不是这个问题的关键。 我还不知道觉察是什么 ——我们将找出答案，我们将探索这个问题。 到目前为止已经探索了无序和不和谐的原因 ——一个或另一个的至高无上， 躯体、身体的至高无上， 或者智力的至高无上——感情或智力， 或者反对智力的愿望， 等等，等等，等等——战争。 而我对自己说：觉察 ——你明白了吗？—— 觉察能够带来和谐， 使一切同等重要吗？
40:00 Q:A function which contains all that and is beyond it. 问：一种包含所有这些并且超越了这些的运作。
40:03 K:Yes. I just want to inquire into it. 克：是的。我正要深入探讨这点。
40:11 Q:My question was related to that: if an awareness of that nature, of that type, you say is not an intellectual process, then what is being aware? 问：我的问题与此相关： 如果那种性质、那种类型的觉察， 你说不是一个智力的过程， 那么，是什么在觉察？
40:24 K:We're going to find out, sir, we're going to find out. We're going to find out what it means to be aware. Because if the intellect says, 'I will calm down,' [laughs] it's a hypocritical thing, and I will just hold myself in, ready to burst at any moment. 克：我们会弄清楚的，先生，我们就要弄清楚。 我们将弄清觉察意味着什么。 因为，如果智力说：“我要平静下来，” 【笑】它就是虚伪的， 我仅仅是收敛自己，随时准备爆发。
40:51 Q:Also that's a calculation. 问：那也是一种算计。
40:53 K:You follow? And if the body says, 'All right then, I have a chance now' - [laughter] - you follow? - 'Now I can let off the emotions.' So can we... what does awareness mean? Why is awareness important in this? You follow, sir? Here I have a problem. I have a problem. I live in disharmony, in disorder. Either the body becomes extraordinarily demanding, vital - you follow? - with its lust, with its appetites, with its... or the intellect, or the emotions, sentimentality of - you know. And I see that and I say, 'Now, what is the element that will bring all this into perfect rhythm?' So that the body's perfect, you know, healthy, so the emotions are really... they are real emotions, not invented by the intellect, and reason, sane, healthy. I mean, whole implies - I don't know if you've looked at that word - 'whole' means whole, in which is implied health, sanity, and also 'whole' implies h- o-l-y - holy - all that is in that word. Which means the whole thing is whole, sane. Now, what is the thing that will bring this about? Not effort, because effort means... intellect says, 'By Jove, I see that's the way to live, and I'm going after it. I'm going to train the body, I'm going to train...' - you follow? It's gone. 克：你明白吗？如果身体说： “那好吧，现在我的机会来了” ——【笑】——你明白吗？—— “现在我能释放情绪了。” 所以，我们能否 觉察意味着什么？ 在这里面为什么觉察很重要？你跟上了吗，先生？ 现在我有一个问题。我有一个问题。 我生活在不和谐中，在无序中。 要么身体变得需索无度、 至关重要——你明白吗？—— 带着它的欲望、它的嗜好、它的 要么是智力或情绪， 或者多愁善感——你知道的。 我看到了这些，然后我说： “现在，什么要素 会将所有这些带入完美的韵律中？” 以至于身体是完美的，你知道，是健康的， 所以情绪真正地 它们是真实的情感，不再是智力和理性所发明的， 而是理智的、健康的。 我的意思是，完整意味着——我不知道你是否看过那个词—— “完整”意味着整体， 其中隐含着健康、理智， 并且，“完整”也意味着h-o-l-y——神圣—— 所有这些都包含在这个词中。 那意味着，这个整体是完整的、理智的。 那么，是什么东西能带来这个？ 不是努力，因为努力意味着……智力说： “天哪，我发现那就是生活的道路， 所以，我要追随它。 我要训练身体，我要训练……” ——你明白吗？ 它就消失了。
43:30 Q:If you say that is the way to live so I'm going after it, you haven't really seen it.

K:Of course not, of course not. So what is the thing that will make it whole, in which there must be not the slightest whisper of effort, not the slightest directive? Right, sir? Because the moment the intellect takes charge... So the mind must be free of the directive, sense of effort. Now, how does this happen? Shall I go on, sir? Must the thing come from the outside or must it begin from the inside out? I don't know if I'm using non-technological words, but... So let's tackle it. What does awareness mean? Because I think that is the key. I think - I may change it - you follow, sir? - because we are exploring together, therefore you may find something different. We are together in this. What does it mean? I see this. I see through observation, therefore through experiment, testing, observing the fact, the event, and learning about it, and not make from that... not acquiring knowledge but merely learning. Because knowledge, when it becomes knowledge, it becomes the intellect and then it will say it will guide it. I don't know if you... Can we go on from there? 		问：如果你说那就是生活的方式，所以我要追随它， 那么你就没有真正看到它。

克：当然没有，当然没有。 所以，是什么能使它完整， 其中没有一丁点儿努力， 没有一点儿指导？对吗，先生？ 因为一旦智力开始主导 所以，头脑要摆脱指导， 摆脱努力。 那么，这些怎样发生？ 我可以继续吗，先生？ 这个东西是来自外部呢， 还是由内而外呢？ 我不知道我是否在使用非技术性的词语，但 让我们来解决它。觉察意味着什么？ 因为我认为那就是关键。 我认为——我可能改变它——你明白吗，先生？—— 因为我们在一起探索， 所以你可能发现不同的东西。 我们一起探讨这个问题。 它意味着什么？ 我看到了这点。我通过观察看到， 进而通过试验、 测验，观察那个事实、那个事件， 了解它，而不是从中得出什么 不是获取知识，而仅仅是学习。 因为知识，当它变成知识， 它就变成了智力，它就会说由它来引导。 我不知道你是否……我们能继续吗？
46:35 Q:Could you repeat that again? 问：请你重复一遍好吗？
46:44 K:What did I say?

Q:Because when you act from knowledge then it is again the intellect which is guiding. But learning is not to act from knowledge, it is a state of being in which knowledge is not acting. 		克：我说了什么？

问：因为当你根据知识行动， 那么它又成了引导的智力。 但学习不是根据知识去行动， 它是一种存在的状态，在其中知识没有运作。
47:02 K:I see, one observes, the fact. The fact: the intellect dominates, the other two play second fiddle. Now, harmony means functioning together as a whole, not as fragments. Now, the mind sees this, sees how it is broken up. Right? How does it see it? Is the seeing a word? 克：我看到，一个人观察到，那个事实。 那个事实就是：智力占支配地位， 其他两个演奏第二小提琴。 而和谐意味着一起运转， 作为一个整体，而不是作为碎片。 现在，头脑看到了这点，看到了它是怎样破碎不堪的。 对吗？它怎样看到？ 这看见是一个词吗？
47:54 Q:Or accumulated knowledge. 问：或者是积累的知识。
47:56 K:No, a word. That is, I must see this thing. Or do I, by the very fact of this dialogue, it is exposed and I see it as I see it in a map - the three operating in contradiction with each other, one dominating, and so on. Now, how do I see it? 克：不，是说一个词。 就是说，我必须看到这个事情。 或者，通过我们的对话这个事实本身，它被揭示出来， 因而，我如同在一幅地图中一样看到了它 ——那三个彼此反其道而行， 一个处于支配地位，等等。那么，我是怎么看到的？
48:37 Q:Is awareness maybe spontaneity? 问：觉察也许是自发的？
48:41 K:Not... dangerous word, sir, if I may say so, because to be spontaneous implies freedom. And a mind that is... intellect that is dominating, is not free. How do I see this? How does the mind see this thing? See this fragmentation? One fragment supremely important, the rest are minor? I mean, when we use 'see,' how do you see it, sir? You see these three fragments - one a little taller than the rest. And when you say, 'I understand that,' what do you mean by that? Is it a verbal understanding, or is it an observation of what actually is, without any distortion - saying this must not be, this should be? I don't know if... How do you look at it? 克：不是……危险的词语，先生，请允许我这样说， 因为自发意味着自由。 而头脑是……起支配作用的智力，不是自由的。 我怎样看到这点？头脑怎样看到这件事情？ 看到这种支离破碎？ 一个碎片是至关重要的，其他的是次要的？ 我的意思是，当我们用“看见”这个词，你是怎样看到它的，先生？ 你看到这三个碎片——一个比其余的高一点。 而当你说：“我理解那个，”你那样说是什么意思呢？ 是一种字面的理解呢， 还是一种对事实的观察呢， 不带任何扭曲 ——不说这不应该，这应该？ 我不知道是否……你怎么看它？
50:10 Q:Does the seeing allow for a certain verbal action too? Do we ruin it the moment we ascribe any word to it? 问：“看见”也允许有某种语言行为发生吗？ 一旦我们归于某个词，就会破坏它吗？
50:20 K:No, I may use words afterwards.

Q:Afterwards. 		克：不是的，我可以随后采用词语。

问：随后。
50:23 K:Yes.

Q:The seeing is before the word. 		克：是的。

问：“看见”是在词语之前。
50:27 K:The word - that's right. Before the word, obviously, otherwise the seeing is the word. 克：词语——对。在词语之前，显然如此， 否则，“看见”就是那个词。
50:31 Q:Don't we perhaps immediately... 问：难道我们不可能马上
50:34 K:Yes, that's what I was warning, too. Is it a verbal seeing or actual seeing? 克：是的，那也是我在提醒的事情。 那是字面的看见呢，还是实际的看见？
50:44 Q:How can you see it if your mind is always condemning? Your censor is interfering, and you can't see it. 问：如果你的头脑一直在谴责，你怎么能看见呢？ 你的审查者在干预，所以你无法看到它。
50:51 K:Yes, doctor, but look, sir, this is a fact, isn't it? 克：是的，博士。但是看一下，先生，这是一个事实，不是吗？
50:56 Q:Yes.

K:The fact that one is these three. 		问：是的。

克：事实就是人是三者的组合。
50:59 Q:Yes, that's right.

K:That's a fact. Now, how do you look at that fact? 		问：是的，正确。

克：那是一个事实。 那么，你怎样看那个事实？
51:06 Q:I'm saying you can't look at it without... 问：我是说你不能看着它而没有
51:08 K:No, no, no, I'm not interested in your condemnation, judgment, evaluation - then you don't see. So put aside all that and look. Then how do you see it? If you put that out - if you put... justification, condemnation, all the rest of it, aren't you looking harmoniously? 克：不，不，不，我不关心你的谴责、 判断、评价——那样你就看不到了。 所以，把那些都抛开再去看。 然后你怎么看它？ 如果你排除了那些， ——如果你排除了……辩护、谴责，诸如此类， 难道你不就是在和谐地观察吗？
51:43 Q:[Inaudible] 问：【听不清】
51:44 K:No, sir, no, sir, no, sir, do go slow. Are you looking through the intellect, which justifies, condemns, says this is right, society has produced this, etc., etc. - which is all the act of the intellect - and when you put aside justification, condemnation and all that, how do you look at it? 克：不，先生，不，先生，不，先生，一定慢慢来。 你是在透过智力观察吗？ 智力辩护、谴责，说这是正确的， 社会造就了这个，等等，等等， ——这都是智力的活动—— 而当你将辩护、谴责和诸如此类的一切都放在一边， 你怎么看它？
52:24 Q:You look attentively at the whole.

K:Do you? Don't theorize about it, then we play tricks. Can you look at this table, sir, without being caught in the description? Because the description is not the table. Right? Can you look at it without the word? Saying it's a marble, I like it, I don't like it, strange painting - you know, all the rest of it, go through it - how ugly, how beautiful, etc., etc. - just to observe. 		问：你全神贯注地看着那个整体。

克：你做到了吗？ 不要将它理论化然后再耍花招。 先生，你能看着这张桌子， 而不陷入对桌子的描述吗？ 因为描述不是那张桌子。 对吗？你能不带词语地看它吗？ 说，它是大理石的，我喜欢它，我不喜欢它，奇怪的油漆， ——你知道的，诸如此类，检查它—— 多么丑，多么美，等等，等等， ——而仅仅是观察。
53:25 Q:And even observe without looking at a table. 问：甚至不去看桌子而观察。
53:28 K:Ah, no, no - how can I observe without looking at... 克：啊，不，不——我不看怎么能观察
53:32 Q:It's a great idea. 问：这是一个伟大的想法。
53:34 K:Then you are looking at the idea of a table. Can you look that way? And when you do look that way, don't you see the whole of it, not just what you think it should be. So can the mind look at the three fragments without the word, and therefore justification, or adjustment, and so on, without all that, can the mind look at this fact? 克：那么你就是在看桌子这个概念。 你能那样看吗？ 而当你那样看的时候，难道你看见的不是它的整体， 而不是你认为它应该怎样。 所以，头脑能否看着那三个碎片， 而不带言词， 因而不带着辩护或谴责，等等， 不带所有这些，头脑能看这个事实吗？
54:31 T:Five minutes left. T：还剩5分钟。
54:36 K:He wants five minute's rest. 克：他想休息5分钟。
54:40 T:There are five minutes left. T：还有5分钟。
54:41 K:I see. 克：我知道了。
54:51 Q:It has to become quiet. 问：它必须变得安静。
54:59 K:Does it, sir - quiet? What does that mean? 克：它是否，先生——安静了下来？那意味着什么？
55:03 Q:I can't see this table - thoughts keep coming in to block it. 问：我看不到这张桌子——想法不断出来阻碍。
55:10 K:No, sir. Look, sir, do look at it, it's very interesting, do look at it. If you really want to look at that table, is there any thought? When you are inattentive, all the things happen. Therefore awareness and attention is the factor of harmony. I don't know if you are... If I don't look... if the mind doesn't look... if the mind looks with any distortion, which is of effort, judgment, etc., etc., then the observation is distorted, disharmony, not harmonious. Now, to look at it with harmony is to look at these fragments without any distortion, prejudice, want, must not, all the rest of it. And doesn't that itself create silence? Not the mind must become silent but that itself... 克：不，先生。 看，先生，务必看一看，这非常有趣，看着它。 如果你确实想看那张桌子，还会有任何想法吗？ 当你漫不经心的时候，所有的事情才会发生。 所以觉察和关注是和谐的要素。 我不清楚你是否 如果我不看……如果头脑不看 如果头脑带着任何扭曲去看， 扭曲就是努力、判断，等等，等等， 那么，观察就被扭曲了， 不和谐了。 现在，和谐地看着它 就是看着这些碎片 而不带任何扭曲、偏见、 希望、不应该怎样，诸如此类。 难道这本身不就会带来宁静吗？ 不是头脑必须变得安静，而是那本身
56:49 Q:The looking. 问：那个看。
56:53 K:If I want to look at that tree, or that sunset, or these lovely hills, I look. And that very look wipes away everything else. 克：如果我想看那棵树， 或者日落，或这些可爱的山丘，我就看。 而正是这个看，扫除了其他的一切。
57:05 Q:Are you saying we're not interested in looking? 问：你是说，我们对看没有兴趣？
57:08 K:No, no. No. Then you will say, 'How am I to have the interest?' [Laughs] We are caught in a trap then. But to see the fact that we live in disharmony, to see how this disharmony, this disorder has come into being - of intellect, and so on, so on - just to see it. And the very seeing of it has its own silence. Because without... if there is a noise I can't look at those mountains. The very looking at those mountains is bringing about its own silence. So how do you look? Through the intellect? Do you look at that tree, those hills, or do you look at these fragments, the intellect, and so on - how do you look at all this? With chattering? Can we look at this question in another way? You know, control has apparently become extraordinarily important, because they say you must have... the body must be completely controlled, your mind must be completely held so that it doesn't wander off. And your emotions and everything must be trained. So, meditation implies to make the body sit completely quiet. That's the beginning of it. And to make that body completely quiet, train it by being aware of every movement of the body. Right? I don't know if you have ever gone into all this. Watch your body move, or make the body move - the toe, the ankle, the knee, and so on - gradually watch it, watch it. You follow, sir? So out of this watching, the body becomes extraordinarily healthy. I don't know if... Have you ever played with this kind of stuff? So, then in the same way, watch your emotions, watch your thoughts, watch so that it doesn't move away from the direction it has been set. Which is, 'I must think of God.' I'm using the word 'God,' or an ideal, or some phrase, or something, or other - Jesus, the Buddha, what it is. So that there is... your mind is held in that line, in that groove. So control has been imposed on this, and we have accepted this as the way of leading a very straight, orderly life. That is very disorder... that itself is disorder. I don't know if you see this, because that means, you know, the whole thing is resistance. 克：不，不。不。 然后你会说：“我怎么才能有兴趣呢？”【笑】 这样我们就掉进了一个陷阱。 但看到我们生活在不和谐中这个事实， 看到这种不和谐、这种无序是怎样产生的 ——智力的混乱，等等，等等——仅仅去看。 而正是这个“看见”具有它自身的宁静。 因为如果没有 如果有噪音，我就无法看那些山峰。 正是对山的看本身 带来了它自身的宁静。 那么，你怎么看？ 通过智力？ 你看这棵树、这些山丘， 或者你看这些碎片、智力，等等 ——你怎么看这一切？带着（头脑的）喋喋不休吗？ 我们可以换种方式看这个问题吗？ 你知道，控制 显然已经变得异乎寻常地重要， 因为他们说你必须让 身体必须被完全控制， 你的头脑必须被完全掌控， 以便它不会到处漫游。 并且你的情感和一切都必须受到训练。 所以，冥想就意味着使身体完全安静地坐着。 这是开始。 而要让身体完全安静， 通过觉察身体的每一个移动来训练它。 对吗？我不知道你是否曾深入过这些。 看着你的身体移动，或者使身体移动 ——脚趾，踝关节，膝盖，等等—— 逐渐地观察它，观察它。 你跟上了吗，先生？ 所以，借助这种观察，身体变得非常健康。 我不知道是否 你是否曾经玩过这种东西？ 然后，同样地，观察你的情感，观察你的思想， 观察以至于它不再 离开为它设定的方向。 比如，“我必须想着上帝。” 我在使用“上帝”这个词或者某个理想， 或者什么词语、什么东西，或其他什么 ——耶稣、佛陀，无论什么。 因而有……你的头脑就被局限在那条线路、 那条沟槽之内。 就这样控制被强加在这上面， 并且我们接受了 这是一种正直、有序的生活方式。 这非常无序……它本身就是无序。 我不知道你是否看到了这点，因为这意味着， 你知道，整个事情就是抵抗。
1:02:18 Q:One idea is dominating...

K:I mean the whole... We are saying don't do that, that's all wrong, but be aware. Be aware without distortion, without choice, without giving a direction. And that very awareness will make the body quiet. You follow? Not the other way. I don't know if you... 		问：一种思想在支配……

克：我指的是整个 我们说不要那样做，那全错了，但要觉察到这点。 没有扭曲、没有选择地觉察到， 也不设定任何方向。 而正是这种觉察将使身体安静。 你明白了吗？ 而不是其它的方式。 我不知道你是否
1:03:07 Q:Will you discuss anger from the same point of view? I'd like to hear you talk about anger. 问：以同样的视角，你能否讨论一下愤怒？ 我想听你谈谈愤怒。
1:03:11 K:Anger.

Q:Anger, from this point of view of an awareness. You get angry. 		克：愤怒。

问：愤怒， 从觉察的角度谈一谈。你生气了。
1:03:19 K:No, I don't think you'll ever be angry. And therefore there's no need for suppression. You're ahead of anger. I don't know... Sorry to put it that way. 克：不，我不认为你会愤怒。 所以不需要压制。 你超越了愤怒。我不知道 抱歉这么说。
1:03:33 Q:The reason I mention this is because psychologists and psychiatrists... 问：我提到这个的原因是心理学家和精神病专家
1:03:37 K:You see it coming, you can feel it, and you know how to deal with it. We know how to deal with it after it happens. Awareness is to see it arise and deal with... and soften it down as it happens. 克：你看到它产生，你能感觉到它， 并且你知道怎样处理它。 在它发生之后，我们知道怎样处理它。 觉察就是看到它产生并且处理 当它发生的时候使它平息下来。
1:04:06 Q:You are saying that we will really know how to deal with it. Now it's a matter of our doing it. It really will happen... 问：你说我们真的会知道怎样处理它。 那么就是我们要去做的事情了。它真的会发生
1:04:19 K:Sir, do it now, you will see it for yourself what extraordinary thing this is. Not because I say. What I say has no importance, but... 克：先生，现在就做，你将亲自看到 这是一件多么非凡的事情。 不是因为我这么说。我说什么并不重要，而
1:04:32 Q:[Inaudible] ...the total organism... 问：【听不清】……整个有机体
1:04:38 K:Yes, sir, obviously. A man who is extraordinarily energetic is not angry. A man who has got this sense of complete harmony, you know, complete security, then what in... I mean - sorry! [Laughs] 克：是的，先生，显然如此。 一个非常有活力的人不会愤怒。 一个拥有这种完全的和谐感的人， 你知道，完全的安全，然后什么 我的意思是——抱歉！【笑】
1:05:08 Q:Is it true that... does love always flow out of this full awareness? 问：爱总是从这种完满的觉察中流淌出来，这是不是真的？
1:05:13 K:Ah, no, no. Sir... [laughs] Do you think a flower that is full of perfume saying, 'This is love'? 克：啊，不，不。先生……【笑】 你认为一个充满芬芳的花会说“这就是爱”吗？
1:05:31 Q:I don't mean the idea of love. 问：我不是说“爱”这个想法。
1:05:33 K:I'm saying a flower - there it is. It's got so much perfume, lovely, so tender... Intellect says love must be personal, impersonal, godly, noble, fine, this, that - you know? - make a nice mess of it. I mean, this whole Catholic world is now in revolution because it has accepted that in the service of God you must be a celibate. 克：我是说一朵花——就在那儿。 它香气馥郁、美丽动人，如此柔嫩 智力说，爱必须是个人的、 非个人的、上帝般的、高贵的、美好的，这样，那样——你知道吗？—— 把它变成了看似美丽的一团混乱。 我是说，整个天主教世界正在发生革命， 因为它接受了 你必须独身才能侍奉上帝的观念。
1:06:25 Q:Or pretend to be, or seem to be. 问：或者假装是，或看起来是。
1:06:29 K:Celibate - don't actually sleep with a woman but bottle it inside yourself but don't do it outwardly. And also it's the same in India, the same in Asia. They boil, burn, destroy themselves inwardly, but outwardly Jesus, and Buddha, and, you know, all the rest of it. So we are saying, seeing all this phenomenon, the harmonious life is only possible in the observation of the fact, the event, and looking at it - and nothing else. How you look matters, not what you look at. I don't know... If there is a distance between the observer and the observed then it's finished. 克：独身——实际上并不与女人上床， 而是封闭在你的内心之中，但不显露出来。 并且在印度也是这样，在亚洲也是如此。 他们从内心煎熬、灼烧、破坏着自己， 但外在地，基督、佛陀，以及，你知道，诸如此类的一切。 所以我们说，看到了所有这些现象， 和谐的生活只可能发生在 对事实、事件的观察中， 看着它——别无其他。 重要的是你怎样看， 而不是你看什么。我不知道 如果在观察者和被观之物之间存在距离， 那就完了。
1:07:54 Q:If there is an observer.

K:If there is an observer. The flower with perfume doesn't say, 'This is love, this is beauty, I am full of this, I am full of that' - it is that. 		问：如果存在一个观察者。

克：如果观察者存在。 芬芳的花朵不会说： “这就是爱，这就是美， 我充满这个，我充满那个”——它就是那个。
1:08:23 Q:Sir, the very situation, the distance between the observer and the observed. Is there another way of putting that phrase 'distance,' is there another way of looking at that? 问：先生，正是这种情形， 观察者和被观之物之间的距离。 有没有别的词来表达“距离”这个词， 有没有别的方式去看？
1:08:38 K:Another way of looking at it, sir, is to look at it without the observer, to look at it so that there is only this thing that's observed, not the interpretation of what is observed. And when you do look at the fragments - intellect and all the rest of it - as the non-observer, are there fragments? I don't know if you... You follow, sir? The observer is a fragment. The observer observes the fragments, the three fragments. And so he becomes the separate entity, an outsider who is looking in. But the observer is the thing that he observes. He may put himself outside but he's part of those three. So the observer is the observed, and therefore no distance. And can the mind look that way without identifying, saying, 'I am the whole, I am this.' Sir, look, another extraordinary thing takes place when you look... I mean, to look, as we generally do, as the observer and the observed, that has created its own discipline, its own disorder. But to look without the observer requires a discipline in the sense of tremendous learning to look. Right? 克：先生，另一种看的方式， 就是没有观察者地看， 就是只有被观察之物的观看， 而没有对被观之物的诠释。 当你看那些碎片时， ——智力和其他的一切—— 作为非观察者，还存在碎片吗？ 我不知道你是否……你跟上了吗，先生？ 观察者是一个碎片。 观察者观看那些碎片， 那三个碎片。 于是他就成了分离的实体， 一个局外者在向里看。 但观察者恰恰就是他所观之物。 他可以把自己分离出来，但他就是这三个之中的一部分。 所以，观察者就是被观之物， 因而不存在距离。 头脑能否以这种方式观察，没有认同， 也不说“我是整体，我是这个。” 先生，你看，当你如此看时，另一件非凡的事情就会发生 我是说，去看，如我们通常所做，有观察者和被观察之物， 那会制造它自身的纪律、 它自身的无序。 但要不带有观察者去看，需要一种纪律， 需要一种非凡的学习这个意义上的纪律去看。 对吗？
1:11:02 Q:Learning in looking.

K:Learning in looking. 		问：在看中学习。

克：在看中学习。
1:11:05 Q:Not in... [inaudible]

K:No. 		问：不是在……【听不清】

克：不。
1:11:08 Q:But doesn't that take time?

K:No, sir. 		问：那不需要花时间吗？

克：不需要，先生。
1:11:10 Q:The two are the same.

K:No, sir, it doesn't take time. Look, sir, look at those mountains without the observer - just look, sir, and see what takes place. I wish you were sitting here instead of me; you would see it. You see, that's really quite... To look without the image - you follow, sir? - that's what it means - to look at my wife, husband, the hills, the trees, the birds, the whole movement of this beauty without the image. Because the image is the observer. The image is the intellect. You see, sir, how tied it is? How tied together it all is. So one has to take the whole of it or not at all. [Laughs] You can't say, 'Well, I like a fragment of it, I am going to use it.' Then you are going to destroy the whole thing. 		问：两者为一。

克：不，先生，它不需要时间。 看，先生，看那些山，而不带着观察者 ——只是看，先生，看看会发生什么。 我希望你替我坐在这里；你就会看到。 你看，那真是非常 不带着意象去看——你明白吗，先生？—— 也就是说——去看我的妻子、丈夫、 山丘、树木、鸟儿， 这整个美的运动，而不带有任何形象。 因为形象就是观察者。 形象就是智力。 你看，先生，它们的连结是多么紧密？ 这一切是如此紧密地连结在一起。 所以，一个人要么整个去把握它，要么不做任何把握。【笑】 你不能说：“哦，我喜欢它的一个碎片， 我要利用这块碎片。” 那样你就会破坏整件事情。
1:13:03 Q:Could you say a few more words about that, this sustained seriousness - For a while we can sustain it. You brought up the question yourself, because I haven't heard you say anything about it: sustained seriousness. 问：对此你能否再多谈一点， 这种持续的认真—— 我们可以保持一会儿。 你自己提出了这个问题， 而因为我没听到你说任何相关的内容： 持续的认真。
1:13:19 K:Sustained... We have done this. A whole hour we have spent at it! 克：持续的……我们已经做到了这点。一整个小时我们都花在了上面！
1:13:22 Q:[Inaudible] 问：【听不清】
1:13:24 K:Ah! If you spent a whole hour and a half at this, you will do it the rest of the time, naturally. Including going to the cinema. [Laughs] 克：啊！如果你花费一个半小时在这上面， 你自然就能在其余时间做到。 包括去看电影。【笑】
1:13:45 Q:This doesn't leave out playfulness, does it? [Laughter] 问：这并没有将快活排除在外，是吗？【笑声】
1:13:50 Q:I hope not. 问：我希望没有。
1:13:54 K:It all depends on what you mean by playfulness. [Laughter] 克：全看你说的快活指的是什么了。【笑声】
1:13:59 Q:[Inaudible] 问：【听不清】
1:14:04 K:Sir, that means enjoyment is something entirely different - joy is entirely different from pleasure. 克：先生，那意味着喜悦是完全不同的事情 ——喜悦与快乐截然不同。
1:14:11 Q:Yes.

K:Ah, no! 		问：是的。

克：啊，不！
1:14:16 Q:I think there is some kind of a connotation to the word 'seriousness' that... 问：我认为“认真”这个词 有某种言外之意
1:14:22 K:Of course, of course.

Q:To the word. 		克：当然，当然。

问：对于这个词。
1:14:28 K:What time is it, sir?

Q:Half past twelve, sir. 		克：几点了，先生？

问：12点半了，先生。
1:14:31 K:Oh, I think we'd better stop, don't you? 克：噢，我想我们最好停下了，好吗？