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ML70DSG5 - 关注通往了解
第五次小组讨论
美国，马里布
1970年3月21日



0:26 K:What shall we talk about? 我们来谈些什么呢？
0:55 Q:Something for the sake of breaking the ice... 问：说些能打破坚冰的事情
0:59 K:Don't break the ice.

Q:[Laughs] OK. 		克：不要打破坚冰。

问：【笑】好的。
1:03 K:What shall we talk...? 克：我们谈点什么？
1:05 Q:Psychoanalysts often talk about the censor and about resistance, and I'm interested in hearing a discussion on the nature of the censor and resistance. Maybe they're the same. 问：精神分析学家经常谈到审查者以及抗拒， 我有兴趣听一听 关于审查者和抗拒的本质的讨论。也许它们是一回事。
1:16 K:The censor and resistance.

Q:Yes. 		克：审查者和抗拒。

问：是的。
1:32 K:Should we talk about that? I suppose anything will do except… [laughs] Perhaps we could talk about that, enlarge and come into that, if we talked about, a little bit, about attention. Shall we? Would that be worthwhile, talk about the inattention and attention? Because it seems to me we pass most of our lives in inattention, except in moments, or events, or crises where we have got to pay attention, where we have to give our mind and heart and everything we have to solve that issue. But most of the time we spend our life, don't we, rather drifting along, though we are very occupied, and the very occupation becomes a form of inattention, where there isn't much to do there, you keep rolling. Would that be of any consequential interest? How does this happen, that we waste our life so inordinately, drifting along, and totally - we won't use the word 'totally' - with a great deal of inattention in our lives? I was told of an article recently written in one of the weekly magazines, where the Zen Buddhist monks, Zen monks, were able so completely be attentive that their reactions were very slow, because they had trained themselves with a great deal of attention and interest, so that any reaction which an ordinary human being would have was very slow. I don't know if you… 克：我们讨论这个吗？ 我估计谈什么都可以，除了……【笑】 也许我们可以讨论这个， 扩展到这个， 不过我们先讨论一下有关注意力的问题， 好吗？ 是不是有必要讨论一下 漫不经心和注意力的问题？ 因为我们似乎在漫不经心中度过了我们的大部分生命， 除了在某些时刻、事件或危机中， 那时我们不得不全神贯注， 我们不得不倾注我们的头脑和心灵 以及我们所有的一切去解决问题。 但在大部分时间里，我们更多地把生命耗费在 随波逐流上，不是吗？尽管我们事务缠身， 但正是这种事务缠身变成了一种漫不经心， 即使没有多少事情可做，你仍然转个不停。 那有什么间接的好处吗？ 怎么会这样呢？ 我们如此无度地浪费着我们的生命， 随波逐流，并且完全 ——我们不用“完全”这个词—— 在我们的生活中极度漫不经心，这是怎么回事？ 有人告诉我有一篇文章， 是最近写在一个周刊杂志上的， 写到佛教禅宗的僧人，禅僧 能够如此完全地集中注意力， 以致于他们的反应会非常慢， 因为他们用大量的注意力和兴趣 来训练自己， 所以，常人会有的那些反应 在他们身上会变得非常缓慢。 我不知道你们是不是
5:37 Q:Reaction to what, sir? 问：对什么的反应，先生？
5:39 K:Ordinary physical reactions, psychological reactions, psychosomatic reactions. 克：平常的身体反应，心理反应， 精神反应。
5:51 Q:You mean it was thought out kind of slowly and... 问：你是说反应是慢慢思考后做出的并且
5:55 K:No, it was just observed without any response. You see, I'm trying to... 克：不，它只是被观察到没有任何反应。 你看，我在尽量
6:09 Q:I think we would generally think that that was inattentive, because we usually respond very fast or react fast. 问：我想我们通常会认为那是注意力不集中， 因为我们通常应答得非常快或反应很快。
6:43 K:I wonder how we can approach this, if it interests you at all. 克：我想知道我们怎么来理解这个问题，如果你对它感兴趣的话。
6:48 Q:What is attention? 问：注意力是什么？
7:02 K:Do you think attention has a very limited meaning? Like concentration has a very limited meaning, hasn't it? Do you think? I don't know how far you've gone into it, that's why I daren't... Should we plunge into it and go on? I don't know if you really want to, if you're interested in this, because, you see, I think, in understanding attention we should be able to observe ourselves much more clearly, without any resistance, without the censor. Because understanding oneself is of primary importance, obviously - oneself who is a living entity and therefore the observation must also be very attentive in that living sense, in which, as we said, there is no censor or resistance. So, in understanding myself, or yourself, or a human being one must have this quality of attention. That is, in watching oneself, if you have done it at all, there is a process of learning which is not accumulation. The accumulation then becomes the censor and a means of resistance. I don't know if… 克：你是不是认为注意力 的涵义非常有限？ 就像专注的意思非常局限一样，不是吗？ 你是不是认为……我不知道你对它的探究有多深入， 这就是为什么我不敢……我们是不是该直接深入进去，然后继续？ 我不知道你们是不是真的想深入进去，是不是对这个感兴趣， 因为，你看， 我认为，在理解注意力的过程中， 我们应该能够把我们自己看得更清楚， 不带任何抗拒，也没有审查者。 因为了解自己显然是最首要的 ——人本身是一个鲜活的实体， 所以, 在鲜活的生命这个意义上，观察也必须是全神贯注的， 正如我们所说，其中没有审查者或抗拒。 所以，在理解我自己、你自己或一个人的过程中， 人必须拥有注意力这项品质。 就是说，在观察自己的过程中， 如果你曾经这么做过的话， 有一个并非积累的学习过程。 积累就会变成审查者和一种抵抗的手段。 我不知道是否
9:53 Q:The attention would be an openness, an awareness... 问：注意力是一种开放，一种觉知
9:57 K:No. We're going to find out, we're going to explore it together. I want to watch myself, I want to learn about myself - not according to Freud, Jung, or some other specialist, or not specialist - I want to learn about myself. The first thing I have to learn is to unlearn the meaning of that word 'to learn.' Learning implies, generally, accumulation of knowledge from which to act, to think, to function - technological field, in the science, and so on, engineers, and so on. Now, here we are dealing with a very living thing. The self, which is to be understood, is a living, moving, vital thing, moving all the time, changing, and I have to learn about it. Now, if I learn about it, to learn about it, the observer must come fresh to it. If he comes burdened, he's already translating what he sees according to his previous knowledge. I don't know if this… So he's always translating what he sees in terms of the past. The past then becomes the censor and therefore censor says, 'I'll resist this and accept this.' Right, sir? So, the problem then is how to observe without accumulation. Learning through observation without the process of accumulation taking place, so learning is a movement - not from a movement, from a root. I don't know if I… 克：不。我们来弄清楚，我们要一起探索它。 我想观察自己，我想了解我自己 ——不是按照弗洛伊德、荣格， 或别的什么专家，或非专家—— 我想了解我自己。 我首先必须学习的事情 是忘掉“学习”这个词的涵义。 学习通常意味着知识的积累， 根据知识去行动、思考、运作 ——在技术领域，在科学中，等等，工程师，等等。 现在，我们面对的是一个非常鲜活的东西。 要理解的自我 是有生命的、活动的、生机勃勃的东西， 一直在运动、变化，而我必须了解它。 那么，如果我去了解它，想要了解它， 观察者就必须以崭新的姿态去接近它。 如果他带着沉重的负担，他就已经在根据他先前的知识 来诠释他所看到的一切了。 我不清楚这是否 所以他总是根据过去来解释他所看到的。 过去就变成了审查者， 于是审查者说： “我要反对这个，接受那个。” 对吗，先生？ 那么，问题就变成了怎样观察 而不积累。 通过观察来学习， 而没有发生积累的过程， 因而学习本身就是一种运动 ——而不是来自某种运动，也不是来自某种固化的根本。 我不知道我是不是
12:31 Q:It's not just accumulation, it's also exclusion as well. Wouldn't it be not only accumulation but exclusion? 问：那种学习不仅是积累，而且也是排除。 难道不是不仅仅积累而且也排除吗？
12:43 K:Of course. Resistance means exclusion. The moment I resist, I exclude, naturally. So the question is: how to observe, to learn and not to accumulate. It's quite… if you go into it, it becomes quite subtle, quite extraordinarily interesting. To know oneself without the pressure of the past interfering with what is being learned. Now, how does this happen? Analysis implies the analyser, the censor - right? - a fragment separating itself from other fragments and assuming authority to analyse. But that fragment is interrelated with the rest of the fragments which go to make up the human entity. So, to observe without analysis - I don't know if you follow all this - which means not to come to a conclusion ever, never to say to myself, 'I know myself' - so that is the problem. So, the specialists have said, you know, the people like the Zen and other people, said cultivate attention, awareness, cultivate awareness so that there is no interference of the past. They don't put it that way, I'm translating it that way. I don't know if it interests you all this, does it? (You've got a bad eye, I've got a bad tooth - to make up.) So that is really one of the major issues of attention - to attend without the observer, the censor, the entity that resists, that is capable of focusing, and therefore concentrating, and therefore excluding. I don't know… All right, let's go… I see the importance - I'm using the word 'I' as just a means of communication, and so on - there is the importance of learning the whole structure and the nature of oneself. The oneself is the rest of the humanity - that's obvious so we don't have to beat that to death. Oneself is the whole social, environmental, cultural result. And to bring about a social, or environmental, or cultural change, revolution, one has to begin the change, the revolution in oneself - obviously - because one is the rest of humanity. It is not oneself first and humanity next, it is a total movement of the human being. Right. To change implies learning about oneself. And to learn there must be freedom, a curiosity, and an intensity. That's obvious. Now, learning implies the non-interference of the censor, the censor who is the past, the accumulated knowledge, both the personal, and impersonal, and all the rest of it. Now, is it possible… can one learn without accumulating? Right? Can we start with that? Now, how do you proceed? Go on, sirs. I want to learn about myself. Can I observe myself without the word? Because the word invariably condemns or justifies. 克：当然。抗拒意味着排除。 当我抗拒时，我自然就会排除。 所以，问题是：怎样观察， 怎样学习而不积累。 那非常……如果你深入进去，它就会变得非常微妙， 非常非常有趣。 认识自己， 而没有过去的压力 干涉正在了解的东西。 那么，这怎样才能发生？ 分析意味着分析者、审查者 ——对吗？—— 一个把自己与其他碎片分离开来的碎片 装作分析的权威。 但这个碎片与其他碎片是相关联的， 一起组成人这个实体。 所以，不带分析的观察——我不知道你们是不是完全理解了—— 那意味着，永远不要得出结论， 绝不对自己说，“我了解我自己” ——那种说法就是问题。 所以，专家说过，你知道， 禅宗的人，以及其他一些人， 说培养注意力、觉察， 培养觉察力，来实现没有过去的干涉。 他们不是这样表达的，我把它翻译成这样。 我不知道你们是不是对此感兴趣，有兴趣吗？ （你有一只眼睛不好，我有一颗牙不好——扯平了。） 所以那真正是关于注意力的主要问题之一 ——关注而不带有观察者、审查者， 不带着那个抗拒、能聚焦、 进而专注并有所排除的实体。 我不知道……好吧，让我们继续 我看到了那种重要性 ——我使用“我”这个词，仅作为一种交流的手段，诸如此类—— 了解自我的整个结构 和本质的重要性。 一个人自身就是整个人类 ——显然如此，所以我们不必对此穷追到底。 你自身就是整个社会、 环境、文化的产物。 而要带来社会的、环境的 或文化的改变、革命， 你就必须从自身的改变、 自身的革命开始——显然如此—— 因为你就是整个人类。 不是首先是你自己，然后是人类， 这是人类的整体运动。对吗？ 转变意味着了解自身。 而要了解就必须有自由， 有好奇心和强烈的热情。这很明显。 那么，了解意味着没有审查者的干涉， 审查者就是过去，就是积累的知识， 包括个人的、非个人的，诸如此类的一切。 那么，有没有可能 你能否了解而不积累？ 对吗？我们能从这里开始吗？ 那么，你怎样去进行？加油，先生们。 我想了解自己。 我能观察自己而不使用语言吗？ 因为语言总是谴责或辩护。
20:17 Q:Also words are the result of culture. 问：语言也是文化的产物。
20:21 K:Right. Look at the difficulty you are going to have: to observe without the word. Try it. Do it. You'll see how extraordinary difficult it is. Jealousy, to observe the feeling without introducing the word 'jealousy,' because that word has many connotations, condemnatory generally. So to observe that feeling and learn all about it without the word. 克：对。看看你将要遇到的困难： 不带词语地观察。 去试一下。去做一做。你会看到那是多么困难。 嫉妒，去观察这种感受， 而不引入“嫉妒”那个词， 因为那个词有很多暗示， 总的来说是谴责性的。 所以，观察那个感受，了解它的一切而不带着那个词。
21:03 Q:Sir, one thing I notice when I do that is that a censor comes into it, and the censor tries to… as the words come up the censor tries to push... 问：先生，当我这样做的时候，我注意到一个事情，就是有个审查者进来， 并且，那个审查者试图……当那个词浮现的时候，审查者试图排除
21:13 K:No, no, that's… If you push it away you're resisting. 克：不，不，那就……如果你排除它，你就是在抗拒。
21:16 Q:I know, that's what I mean. 问：我知道，我就是那个意思。
21:19 K:See what is implied in it. 克：看看其中意味着什么。
21:25 Q:Sir, when you ask that question are you speaking in terms of a physical reaction that you may feel? 问：先生，当你问那个问题的时候， 你说的是不是你感觉到的身体反应？
21:32 K:Physical, psychological, the whole of it, not just physical response, because physical response is related to psyche, and so on - interrelated responses. To observe without naming it - which implies condemnation, or justification, or various forms of suppression. Right? Can the mind observe, learn, watch, listen, without naming, without any form of resistance? 克：身体的、心理的，整个的，不仅是身体的反应， 因为身体的反应与心灵等等是相关的， ——是互相关联的反应。 不带命名地观察 ——命名意味着谴责、辩护 或者各种形式的压制。对吗？ 意识能不能观察、 了解、看、听， 而不命名、 不带有任何形式的抵制？
22:38 Q:Any descriptive term also? 问：不带任何描述性的词语？
22:43 K:Obviously, because the description is not the described. 克：显然不带，因为描述不是被描述之物。
22:48 Q:But why do the descriptions… [inaudible] 问：但是描述为什么……【无法听清】
22:53 K:The word then colours the observation, because the word says 'jealousy,' or 'anger,' or whatever it is, and the word has already condemned it. 克：词语赋予观察色彩， 因为词语说“嫉妒”或“愤怒”，或者无论什么， 那个词已经谴责它了。
23:10 Q:Isn't it something, say, painful, when you experience the sense of pain, what remains? That is the immediate thing, it isn't that the words... 问：难道不是某种东西，比如说，痛苦， 当你体验到痛苦的感觉，会剩下什么？ 那是直接的事情，那并不是言语
23:20 K:No. If one has a physical pain…

Q:Or psychological. 		克：不。如果你有身体上的痛苦……

问：或者心理上的。
23:26 K:…psychological pain - watch it, it's very interesting - why do you have psychological pain? It's a form of resistance. No? The censor doesn't like it. The censor, who is the accumulated knowledge, doesn't want that particular kind of response, or reaction, or experience, or incident, event, and so on, so he shrinks from it, he doesn't like it, it's painful to him. Can one… I mean… Observation without the censor implies all that. 克：……或心理痛苦——看着它，这非常有趣—— 你为什么有心理痛苦？它是一种抗拒的形式。 不是吗？审查者不喜欢它。 审查者，也就是积累的知识， 不想要这种特别的反应， 或者回应、体验、事件，等等， 所以他会从那里退缩，他不喜欢它，他为之痛苦。 你能不能……我的意思是 不带审查者的观察意味着所有这些。
24:19 Q:But does the pain develop because of the censor, or is the pain something separate from the censor? 问：但痛苦是不是因为审查者而产生的， 或者，痛苦是不同于审查者的什么东西吗？
24:29 K:No. How can it be different from the censor? If there was no censor in the psychological sense, would there be pain? 克：不。它怎么能与审查者不同呢？ 如果在心理上没有审查者， 痛苦还存在吗？
24:44 Q:Doesn't an animal feel... 问：难道一个动物感到
24:45 K:Don't bring in the animal, [laughs] we are human beings. Let's stick to this - difficult enough as it is, without going to the animal. 克：不要把动物拉进来，【笑】我们是人类。 让我们紧跟这个主题 ——尽管不扯到动物上去是挺困难的。
24:55 Q:Sir, why do we have this need to name these various things that go on inside us? Is that a part of... 问：先生，我们为什么有这种需要，要去命名 我们内心进行的各种活动？那是不是属于
25:02 K:No, it's part of our culture, part of our resistance, part of our… saying, 'I'm learning about it.' 克：不，那是我们文化的一部分，我们的抗拒的一部分， 我们…….的一部分，说着“我在了解它。”
25:11 Q:But it also has to do with an insecurity. If you see something and you can't name it, something really different...

K:That's right, that's right. 		问：但那也与某种不安全感有关。 如果你看到什么而不能命名， 看到某种真正不同的事物……

克：对，没错。
25:19 Q:A way to remain in control.

Q:Right. 		问：一种处于掌控之中的方式。

问：对。
25:22 Q:We're talking about a psychological pain that develops. If we don't name it as jealousy or hatred, but you sense some feeling of pain, and your reactions do something. The censor is doing that. Now, my question is a strange one: you say when there is no censor there is no pain… 问：我们在讨论产生的某种心理痛苦。 如果我们不称之为嫉妒或恨， 但你感到了某种痛苦，而你的反应有所行动。 审查者正在这么做。 那么，我有一个奇怪的问题： 你说没有审查者的时候就没有痛苦
25:47 K:Is there?

Q:You have to begin somewhere though. 		克：有吗？问: 即使这样你也必须从某个地方开始。
25:52 K:I begin observing the censor. The censor is observing himself and seeing how he produces pain. 克：我从观察那个审查者开始。 审查者在观察他自己，并且看到他是怎样制造痛苦的。
25:59 Q:But who is observing?

K:Wait, wait, that's the point. Who is observing the observer? Right? The watcher is to be watched. Who is observing the observer? Which is, if the observer is not, is there an observer at all? No, this becomes too complex, sir, let's go slowly. Because this is quite difficult to go into it. As we said, I want to learn about myself, observe myself. In the observation I discover there is the censor, the censor who is the result of the past, is the past - like, dislike, various forms of experiences, memories, fear - is the past, he is that. As we said, he separates himself from the rest of the desires, fragments, hopes, fears, and says: I'm going to change, I'm going to control, I'm going to censor. But he's still part of the fragment. Now, can there be observation without the censor, of the parts? Because if there is the censor, there's always a conflict going on, a contradiction, and therefore this battle, the inward struggle, the battle. So I see this very… one sees this very clearly, either intellectually or verbally, and now to find out the reality of it is quite a different thing - right? I want to find out if I can observe without the censor - to observe you who have flattered, insulted, hurt, stolen, whatever it is, without any interference of the past. There'd be reaction, naturally, but not the memory involved in that reaction. I don't know if I'm… You've hurt me. When I see you next time, to observe you without the hurt - I don't know if… - without the memory of the hurt. Because if I have the memory of the hurt, there's a resistance against you and a fight, both outwardly and inwardly. That's one point. Suppose you steal my purse, my bonds, whatever it is, if one has it - thank God I haven't got any - so then how do I meet you? Or if you're my wife or my husband and we have lived for so long together, the image of you and the image of me is so very deeply rooted, can I look at her or him, can the mind… can there be observation of him, of her, without the image? So the observation of her or him is total attention, isn't it? I don't know if… To attend without naming, without identifying thought with the image, without the censor, all this needs a tremendous inward discipline - discipline in the sense of learning. The very act of learning is its own discipline. 		问：但，是谁在观察呢？

克：别急，别急，那就是关键点。 谁在观察那个观察者？ 对吗？ 那个观看者就是要被观看的。 谁在观察那个观察者？ 也就是，如果不是观察者在观察， 那么还会有观察者存在吗？ 不，这变得太复杂了，先生，我们慢点来。 因为要深入这个问题确实非常困难。 就像我们说的，我想要了解自己、观察自己。 在观察的过程中，我发现存在那个审查者， 审查者作为过去的产物，它就是过去 ——喜欢，不喜欢，各种形式的经验、记忆、恐惧—— 就是过去，他就是那个。 就像我们说的，他把自己与其他的欲望、 碎片、希望、恐惧分开，说：我要变化， 我要控制，我要审查。 但他仍然是碎片的一部分。 那么，能不能不带着审查者去观察各个部分？ 因为如果有个审查者， 就总会发生冲突、矛盾， 因而就会存在这种斗争，内在的挣扎、斗争。 所以，我看到这点……你非常清楚地看到这点， 不论是从智力上还是言语上， 而要去弄清楚现实情况如何， 那是一件截然不同的事情——对吗？ 我想发现我能不能观察而不带有审查者 ——去观察 奉承过、侮辱过、伤害过、盗窃过，等等等等的你， 而不带有任何过去的干涉。 自然会有某些反应， 但记忆没有 被牵涉到反应中。我不知道我是不是 你伤害了我。 当我下次看到你， 不带着那个伤害去观察你——我不知道是不是……—— 不带着伤害的记忆。 因为如果我有伤害的记忆， 就会对你有抵触，有某种斗争， 外在会有表现，内心也会有。 这是一点。 比方说你偷了我的钱包， 我的证券，无论什么，如果我有的话 ——感谢上帝我一点也没有——那么我要怎样面对你？ 或者，你是我的妻子或丈夫， 我们一起生活了很长时间， 你的形象和我的形象都已经根深蒂固， 我能不能看着她或他，头脑能否 能不能对他或她进行观察，却不带着过去的印象？ 这样对她或他的观察就是全然的关注，不是吗？ 我不知道是否 关注而不命名， 不让想法去认同形象， 不带有审查者， 这一切都需要内心有强大的纪律 ——学习意义上的纪律。 学习的行动本身就是它自己的纪律。
32:04 Q:Sir, is it possible to observe without a censor so long as one has a motive for observing or a motive for understanding?

K:Of course… obviously not. 		问：先生，不带有审查者的观察，这可能吗？ 如果一个人有观察的动机 或者理解的动机的话？

克：当然……显然不可能。
32:14 Q:So as long as one has a reason for finding something out he would always observe with an image. 问：所以，只要一个人因为某种原因，要去发现什么的话， 他就总是会带着印象去观察。
32:19 K:Of course. No, wait a minute. I want to learn about myself. Is there a reason behind that want? There can be a reason, because I want to escape from misery, from conflict, from various forms of travail, and so on - that can be the motive for learning about myself. And in observing I discover the motive and put it aside, say that's not learning. So all these things are involved in learning, in being attentive when there is observation. Now, most of us are inattentive. Right? How is that inattention to end and attention take place? Is that the question? Is that the right question? How does it happen that the mind can be totally attentive, in the sense we are talking about, when most of our life is spent in inattention? How is this to change? 克：当然。 不，等一会。 我想了解我自己。 这种需要背后有个原因吗？ 可能有一个原因，因为我想从痛苦、 从冲突、从各种形式的辛劳等等之中逃出去 ——这可能是我了解自己的动机。 而在观察中我发现了这个动机，并且把它抛开， 说：那不是了解。 所以，当有观察存在的时候，所有这些东西 就都会包含在了解和关注中。 而我们大多数人都漫不经心。对吗？ 这种漫不经心怎样才能终止，关注又怎样才能发生？ 这是否就是问题所在？这是正确的问题吗？ 头脑怎样才能 全神贯注， 当我们的生命大部分都消耗在漫不经心中， 怎样才能有我们所说的这种意义上的全神贯注？ 怎样才能改变这种状况？
35:31 Q:You mentioned earlier the Zen Buddhists who practise some sort of attention, in their own way, they have their own way of doing it, now that's not the attention you're talking about, obviously. 问：你前面提到过那些禅僧， 他们练习某种注意力， 按照他们自己的方式， 他们用自己的方式去做， 而那显然不是你所说的注意力。
35:51 K:I don't know the meaning of their word 'attention' because that's… Look, sir, I don't know if you've gone into the question of meditation at all, any of you. There, the whole Asiatic concept of meditation is control - control of the body and the bodily responses and not to allow thought to wander at all, but completely focused, concentrated, and so bring about a tranquility of the mind in which alone that supreme something can be understood, or revealed, or lived. I'm putting it very crudely but that is generally the idea. And one sees the tremendous danger of this. I don't know if you're interested in all this. Because I met a man once - not 'I,' doesn't matter - we met a man once, he had given up a very good position as a some kind of bureaucratic position, high up, because one morning he woke up and said, 'I pass judgment on others and I want to know what the meaning of truth is, because I am passing judgment all day long - this should be done, that should be done, he should go to prison - you know, all the rest of it.' He said, 'I want to find out the truth of it, what is truth.' So he disappeared. That's easy in India because you can put on a robe of the monk and wander from village to village and they'll feed you, and clothe you, and be very respectful to you - that's the tradition, the man who leaves the world seeking truth is to be maintained by society - and there are crooks who do that too, that's understood. So for 25 years he was meditating - 25 years, he was an oldish man, and they brought him and he said, 'You know, I was listening to your talk the other day about meditation and I see what I've done, I've really hypnotised myself, I have projected my own desires, feelings, the knowledge about truth, and so on, and lived in a vision of one's own creation.' For an old man to admit that much was tremendous. Which means the observer is meditating. The observer is controlling the rest of the fragments. So, to observe without control. I don't know if you've ever done all these things - great fun. Because control means resistance - one fragment opposing another fragment. 克：我不了解他们说的“注意力”是什么意思，因为那是 你看，先生，我不知道你究竟有没有深入研究过 冥想这个问题，你们中的任何一个人。 在亚洲，冥想的整个概念就是控制 ——控制身体和身体的反应， 完全不让思想游离， 而是完全集中、专注， 以此带来头脑的宁静， 其中就有某种至高无上的东西 能够被理解、被揭示，或被经历。 我概括得很简略，但大体就是这个意思。 而我看到了这个想法中存在巨大的危险。 我不知道你们对这一切是不是感兴趣。 因为我曾经遇到过一个人——不是“我”遇到，没关系—— 我们曾遇到一个人， 他放弃了一个非常好的位置， 官僚机构中一个高高在上的职位， 因为一天早上他醒来，说： “我判决别人， 而我想知道真理意味着什么， 因为我整天在判决别人 ——这应该做，那应该做，他应该进监狱—— 你知道，诸如此类。” 他说：“我想发现真理，什么是真理。” 所以，他消失了。 在印度，那是很容易的事，因为你可以穿上僧袍， 从村庄到村庄地流浪，而人们会给你饭吃， 给你衣服穿，并且尊敬你 ——那是传统，离世寻求真理的人 将由社会供养—— 并且也有骗子那样做，这可想而知。 就这样，他进行了25年的冥想 ——25年，他变成了一个老人， 他们带他过来， 他说：“你知道， 前两天我听了你关于冥想的讲话， 我看到了自己的所做所为，我实际上催眠了自己， 我投射了自己对真理的渴望、感情、 知识，等等， 活在了自己虚构的幻象中。” 作为一个老人，能承认那么多，是非常了不起的。 那意味着是观察者在冥想。 观察者在控制着其他的碎片。 所以，要没有控制地观察。 我不知道你有没有做过所有这些事情——这非常有趣。 因为控制意味着抗拒 ——一个碎片反对另外一个碎片。
40:50 Q:Am I right in thinking that to observe without control would be to observe without words? 问：我这么想是不是正确：不带控制的观察 就是不带言语的观察？
41:00 K:Obviously - all that's implied. 克：显然如此——就是这个意思。
41:02 Q:And if that's the case then is it the case too that while we can lead up evocatively, perhaps in a certain conversation, to someone achieving that. That it cannot be depicted, described - words can't capture that. 问：如果是那样的话，那么 也许当我们与某个实现了这一点的人进行某种交谈时， 能够率先唤起某种感受，这时候是不是同样的情况？ 它无法被刻画或者描述——言语无法企及。
41:28 K:No, sir. You see, the word 'achievement' already denies the whole thing, because there's already a motive behind it, to arrive somewhere. You see, it requires a great deal of observation of all this. Sir, come back, let's go back. Is there observation without any control? Control being the censor, resistance, suppression, or saying, 'Well, I've no control...' - that's too silly, either. So, is it possible to observe - not 'possible' - to observe without any of this? 克：不，先生。你看，“实现”这个词 已经否定了整件事情， 因为它后面早就有个动机，想要到达什么地方。 你看，需要对这一切进行大量的观察。 先生，回来，让我们回去。 有没有不带任何控制的观察呢？ 控制就是审查者， 反抗、压制， 或者说，“哦，我没有控制……”——那也太愚蠢了。 所以，有没有可能去观察——不是“可能”—— 完全不带着这些东西去观察？
42:45 Q:Wanting to gain something, isn't that interfering with attention? Wanting to gain something, doesn't that prevent… 问：想得到什么，难道不就干涉了注意力？ 想得到什么东西，难道不会阻碍
42:51 K:Of course, of course, of course. After all, if one sees what is happening in the world and in oneself, this fantastic violence, aggression, with all the things implied in it - and playing with non-violence is just idiocy, the ideology of it and all that. To see the implications of violence and be totally free of it - not as an achievement but the understanding of the whole nature of violence. 克：当然，当然，当然。 归根结底，如果一个人看到世界上和自身中 正在发生什么， 这些难以置信的暴力、侵略， 及其隐含的所有东西 ——而玩弄非暴力完全是愚蠢的行为， 它的整个思想体系都很愚蠢。 看到暴力所隐含的一切，并完全摆脱出来 ——不是作为一种成就， 而是理解暴力的整个本质。
44:12 Q:Is this observation, when it takes place, something which, say, one can be doing all one's waking hours, or is it something that takes place occasionally? 问：当这种观察发生的时候， 它是一种，比方说， 只要人清醒就能做到的事情吗， 或者只是偶尔才发生的事情？
44:35 K:Sir, as we are listening and discussing here, is it possible to observe… are you observing in that sense which you have talked about just now? Observing, which includes listening and learning - observing means observing, seeing, listening, learning - all a movement. And you're asking: does this happen, can this happen all during the day, or does it happen only, or partially, during the period of sleep? 克：先生，就像我们在这里听到和讨论的， 有没有可能去观察 按照你刚才所说的那种含义， 你是在那样观察吗？ 观察，包含了听 和了解在内 ——观察意味着观察、看见、倾听、了解—— 都是一个运动。 而你问：这会不会、 这能不能全天都发生呢？ 还是它仅仅，或部分地发生在睡眠的时候？
45:31 Q:Oh, I didn't mean to ask about sleep. I meant, rather, is it something that can happen only occasionally or can one... 问：噢，我不是要问睡眠的事情。 我的意思是，它是不是 偶尔才发生的事情，或者人能不能
45:44 K:It must happen all the time, otherwise no point. You know, from that another question arises, which is: the censor is very deeply rooted - right? - deep down in one's being he's rooted. One can observe superficially, consciously, without the observer - that's comparatively easy if one has gone into it, watches it, you know, that's comparatively easy. But there is this deep rooted censor in the very recesses, in the dungeons of one's being, in the caves of one's heart, and so on. How does it happen to bring all that out? I don't know if it interests you, all this. 克：它必须始终都在发生，否则就没有意义。 你知道，那又引出了另外一个问题，就是： 审查者是根深蒂固的——对吗？—— 深深扎根于人生命的最深处。 人能够从表面上有意识地去观察， 不带有观察者 ——如果你探究过这一点，那还是比较容易的， 观察它，你知道，相对比较容易。 但根深蒂固的审查者仍然存在于人生命的最深处， 在深深的地窖里， 在人内心深处的洞穴等等之中。 怎么才能把这一切都释放出来？ 我不知道你们是不是对所有这些事情感兴趣。
47:19 Q:Are you asking if it's possible to end the past once and for all? 问：你是不是在问有没有可能一劳永逸地终结过去？
47:23 K:No, not quite. That is a question but that's not relevant, if you don't mind, at the moment. Here is a problem which I think must strike everybody. I can… one can be superficially observant - right? - I can observe your red shirt, your silver - whatever it is - dress, and so on, so on, so on, and learn the trick of not condemning. It's a trick. But at the deeper layers, deep down, the censor is in operation, of which one may not be conscious at all. And that censor generally takes charge at the moment of inattention. I don't know if you follow all this. And the moment of inattention is sleep. Am I saying anything scandalous? Because then this censor projects dreams - you know, all the rest of it takes place. 克：不，不全是。那也是个问题，但并不相关， 如果你不介意的话，暂时不相关。 我认为所有人都会受到这个问题的袭扰。 我能……人能从表面上观察——对吧？—— 我可以观察你的红衬衣，你的银饰——诸如此类—— 裙子，等等，等等，等等， 并且学会了不去贬低你这个伎俩。 那是个伎俩。 但在更深的层次，往下深入， 有个审查者在起作用， 对这一点，人可能根本意识不到。 审查者通常在 漫不经心的时候掌权。 我不知道你们有没有理解这些。 漫不经心的时候就是睡着了。 我说了什么令人反感的话吗？ 因为此时审查者会投射出梦境 ——你知道，诸如此类的事情就会发生。
49:04 Q:Will this come to the state that one can be asleep with your eyes open? 问：这会达到那种状态， 也就是人会睁着眼睛睡觉吗？
49:07 K:Wait, sir. No. Look, don't go off to the results yet - you'll find out. See what takes place. I am inquiring. We're inquiring. I can be… one can be attentive off and on during the day, watching, train oneself like an animal to watch. I've seen that with a great many people who have listened to all this, and say, 'I'm going to train myself to be very attentive and pay tremendous attention during the daytime.' Now, when they go to sleep, inattention takes charge because the attention is so artificial during the day. I don't know if you're… And so sleep becomes a period of inattention. Do you accept all this? 克：别急，先生。不是这样的。你看，不要马上跳到结果——你会弄清楚的。 看看会发生什么。我在探询。 我们在探询。 我能 一个人能在一天中把注意力打开或关上， 观察，训练自己像动物一样观察。 我看到过很多人 在听了这些以后， 说：“我要训练自己全神贯注， 在白天付出极大的注意力。” 而当他们睡觉后，漫不经心就接管了， 因为白天的注意力是人为造作的。 我不知道你们是不是 这样，睡眠就成了漫不经心的阶段。 你们接受所有这些吗？
50:22 Q:It seems believable. 问：看起来是可信的。
50:25 Q:In the waking state also… 问：在清醒的状态也
50:27 K:Waking state also is inattention, but I am just passing that over. 克：清醒状态也是漫不经心的，而我只不过跳过了这点。
50:33 Q:I couldn't say one way or other when I'm asleep… 问：我没办法说我睡着的时候，是不是漫不经心的
50:36 K:So the question, sir, is to expose the censor completely - you follow? - the censor that's hidden, the censor that is the past. I don't know if you… 克：那么，先生，问题就成了 将审查者完全暴露出来——你理解吗？—— 隐藏的审查者， 就是过去的那个审查者。 我不知道你是不是
51:09 Q:Will that affect the sleeping state? 问：那会影响睡眠状态吗？
51:13 K:You will see. Go into it, sir, we'll find out. Don't ask me questions because you and I are exploring. So what is the function of sleep? I don't know if you… Is it a period of inattention - if I may use that word without spoiling your sleep - [laughs] or is it a period which is really attention? I don't know if you are… 克：你会知道的。深入进去，先生，我们会发现的。 不要问我问题，因为你在和我一起探索。 那么，睡眠的功能是什么？ 我不知道你们是不是 它是一个注意力涣散的时段吗 ——如果我可以用那个词的话， 但愿没有毁了你的睡眠——【笑】 或者，睡眠实际上是一个全神贯注的时段？ 我不知道你们是不是
51:59 Q:If there's a censor...

Q:...then it's inattention. 		问：如果存在一个审查者……

问：……那么就是漫不经心。
52:09 Q:Are you saying that attention must be as deeply rooted as the censor in order to function? 问：你是说注意力必须 像审查者一样深深扎根以便起作用？
52:16 K:No, in order to - not 'in order,' that implies a motive - to live without any form of control, without any resistance, which means without violence, the censor must come to an end. And we are asking the censor, so deeply hidden as he is, how does it happen to expose the whole of that? What do you say? I don't know. 克：不，以便——不是“以便”，那意味着有个动机—— 而若要没有任何形式的控制、没有任何抗拒地生活， 也就是没有任何暴力， 审查者就必须终止。 而我们在问， 隐藏得如此之深的审查者， 怎么才能完全暴露出来？ 你怎么认为？我不知道。
53:28 Q:You have to definitely extend the bounds of your awareness. 问：你肯定需要扩展觉察的范围。
53:36 K:No, wait. No, look what you're… 克：不，等一下。不是的，你看你在
53:39 Q:Because right now I'm only aware at any one time with such a small portion of… 问：因为现在我一时间只能觉察到 这么一小部分
53:46 K:Therefore, how does it happen to extend this attention, not only horizontally but vertically? 克：所以，怎么去扩大这个注意力， 不仅从水平方向上，而且也从垂直方向上扩展？
53:59 Q:True. I implied that. 问：对。我说的就是这个。
54:01 K:Yes, vertically as well as horizontally. 克：是的，垂直方向和水平方向。
54:04 Q:What's the difference between vertical and horizontal? 问：垂直和水平有什么区别？
54:10 K:You know, going down… [laughs] 克: 你知道，走向深处……【笑】
54:13 Q:Not only the scope of what you see... 问：不仅你看到的范围
54:16 K:I mean, after all, all science is horizontal knowledge. Right? But the vertical inquiry - not only up but down. You understand my question? Yes? Yes, sir? One observes there is superficial consciousness with all its resistance and censorship in action, and in that observation one learns a great deal superficially. But deep down, can that observation enter into the hidden recesses? 克：我的意思是，毕竟所有的科学是水平的知识。 对吗？ 但垂直方向的探询——不光向上，也包括向下。 你明白我的问题吗？啊？明白了，先生？ 一个人观察到 存在表面的意识，它所有的抗拒 和审查都在进行着， 通过这种观察，他可以从表面上了解到很多东西。 但在更深的层次， 那种观察能够进入到隐藏的最深处吗？
55:42 Q:I personally feel that that is possible. But one of my ways of doing that, strangely enough, happens when I do dream and I have an awareness while I am dreaming, about the fact that I am dreaming, and when I am finished with my dream I look at it, like a puzzle, and I put the whole thing together, and very often I find some secret key to myself that is troubling me, that comes out in the dream, and it’s over, finished then - I have discovered something. 问: 我个人感觉那是可能的。 但我做这件事的方式之一，非常奇怪， 就是我做梦的时侯，有一种觉知， 我在做梦的同时清楚我是在做梦， 而当我做完梦的时候， 我再去看它，就像个迷一样， 而当我通盘考虑整件事情时， 经常会发现某些困扰我的隐蔽的关键因素， 都从梦中显示了出来， 这时它们就结束了——我发现了某些东西。
56:22 K:Yes, so you're saying, aren't you, if I may interpret what… if I understand rightly: dreams help one to pull out the censor, to expose the censor. Right?

Q:Yes. 		克：是的，所以你说，不是吗，如果我可以解释 如果我理解正确的话： 梦可以帮人揪出那个审查者， 暴露出那个审查者。 对吗？

问：对。
56:53 K:Why do you dream at all? 克：那你到底为什么做梦呢？
57:02 Q:Perhaps because I am not living in my everyday life as I… 问：可能因为我的日常生活没有按照我
57:11 K:Therefore, as you're not living everyday life - not you personally - I'm not talking personally - as one doesn't live with attention during the daytime, night, asleep, in sleep dreams become a necessity. Right? I question the… I say: why should I dream at all? Not: I must dream in order to expose my… You follow?

Q:Yes. 		克：所以，因为你没有在日常生活中——不是单指你个人—— 我不是从个人角度来说的 ——因为一个人在白天没有全神贯注地生活， 到了晚上，睡着了， 睡眠中就必然会有梦。 对吧？我质疑这……我说：我到底为什么要做梦？ 而不是：我必须做梦以便暴露我的 你明白吗？

问：明白。
58:00 K:And finding a key to understanding through dreams, and therefore keeping the mind - see the importance - keeping the brain cells and the mind tremendously active all the time, during the daytime, night - you follow? - the whole machinery operating all the time. So one is asking whether dreams are at all necessary and is there a way - I don't mean a method - how does it happen to expose the hidden? We have ruled out analysis - I'm sorry if there are any analysts here, sorry, forgive me - we ruled out the analysts, analysis, because we went into that so we don't have to go into it - we said analysis implies time, the analyser, the analysed - one fragment assuming the authority, the analyser, and so on - so that's out. That's out - it has no meaning to me, personally. Then how is all this to be exposed? 克：而通过梦发现帮助理解的钥匙， 从而让头脑保持——看看这里的重要性—— 让脑细胞和头脑一直充满巨大的活力， 昼夜不停——你明白吗？—— 整个机器一直在运转。 所以我在问梦究竟是不是必需的， 并且有没有一种途径——我不是指方法—— 怎样才能暴露隐藏的东西？ 我们已经排除了分析 ——如果这儿有分析家，我很抱歉，请原谅—— 我们排除了分析家、分析， 因为我们已经探讨过那些了，所以我们现在不用再说了—— ——我们说过分析意味着时间，分析者、被分析之物—— 一个碎片装作权威、 分析者，等等——所以那些都被排除了。 那些都出局了——对我本人来说，它们毫无意义。 那么，所有这些要怎么暴露出来呢？
59:49 K:I don't know if you're interested in this. Personally I am tremendously because if the censor is in operation at the deeper layers of one's consciousness, and I'm only… and the mind is only polishing up on the surface, there's no meaning. It has a superficial meaning but it is totally irrelevant. So how does it happen? The deep layers, all their contents are exposed without analysis, without searching. Searching implies a seeker - see all the difficulties in it - who, when he's seeking must recognize. Right? And therefore recognition means he's observing through the past and therefore saying, 'This is right,' or, 'this is good, I'll keep this, I won't…' I don't know if you're following all this. How do you answer this? No? 克：我不知道你们对这个是不是感兴趣。 我本人非常感兴趣，因为 如果审查者 在一个人意识的深层运作着， 而我只是 而头脑仅仅在做表面文章，那就毫无意义。 它有表面的意义，但那完全不重要。 那要怎样才能做到呢？ 那些更深的层次， 它们所有的内容都暴露出来， 不用分析， 也不用搜寻。 搜寻意味着有一个追寻者 ——看看其中所有的困难—— 当他追寻的时候，他必须去识别。 对吗？因而识别意味着 他在借助“过去”进行观察， 进而说：“这是正确的”或“这很好， 我要保留这个，我不会…….”我不知道你们有没有理解这些。 你怎么回答这个问题呢？ 没有答案吗？
1:02:54 Q:When one observes, it doesn't seem that there is the censor there. When one is observing there isn't the person watching. 问：当我观察的时候，好像审查者并不在那儿。 当我在观察的时候，并不存在某个人在观看。
1:03:12 K:No, you've not understood, madame, our question. In the cellar, a great many things are hidden, and I've superficially polished the top floor. In the cellar there are all these things - how do I get at that, to expose, to clean up the whole house? 克：不，女士，你没有理解我们的问题。 在地窖中，隐藏着很多东西， 而我表面上擦亮了上层的地板。 在地窖中，有着所有这些东西 ——我怎么着手处理那些， 怎么暴露、清洁整个房子呢？
1:03:44 Q:Doesn't the observing do this? 问：难道观察没有这么做吗？
1:03:55 K:You're saying, does the act of observation in itself reveals all this?

Q:Yes. 		克：你是说，观察的行动本身 是不是就揭示了所有这些？

问：是的。
1:04:05 K:Now, is this from your actual experience or are you just guessing? Please be careful. 克：那么，这是来自你实际的经历呢，还是你只是在猜想？ 请小心一点。
1:04:11 Q:Just now, just doing it now.

K:No, do... Because, you see, we can invent a lot of theories, suppositions, guesses, and that's no good. You are saying, are you, that the observer, being the observed and therefore no censor, when there is - no, such observation is the factor of revealing the whole content of the cellar - is that what you're saying? 		问：刚刚，现在正在做。

克：不，做 因为，你看，我们能发明很多理论、 假定、猜想，而那都没什么好处。 你在说，不是吗，观察者 是被观察之物，所以没有审查者， 只要有 ——不，这种观察是揭示 整个地窖内容的因素 ——这就是你要说的吗？
1:04:48 Q:I am asking. 问：我在问。
1:04:49 Q:But that seems to be the wrong question because the fact is that we don't observe. 问：但那好像是个错误的问题， 因为事实是我们没有观察。
1:04:57 Q:No, like I am observing right now. I don't know if I'm exposing the whole cellar but all I can tell is when things come up I can see them happen, I can see resistances happen. 问：不是，就像我现在就在观察。 我不知道是不是暴露了整个地窖， 但我完全可以断定的是，当事情发生时我能看到它们发生， 我能看到抗拒的产生。
1:05:08 K:You understand, sir, the meaning of this question… 克：先生，你理解这个问题的涵义吗？
1:05:14 Q:Yes. 问:是的。
1:05:15 K:Which is - I'm not doubting you - which is, if there is no analysis, or rather, when we understand the futility of it or see the truth of it, and therefore the time element has gone out of it, in the sense taking time between the top floor and the bottom floor - you follow? - there's no time at all. Because when we understand the process of analysis you also understand the process of time, therefore you eliminate time. I don't know if you do. Therefore we're asking: the observation must be free from time. Right? It isn't that I'm awake during the day, partially awake during the day, and sleep reveals through dreams the contents of the unconscious. Therefore both are necessary - you follow? All that involves time. I have no time. To me time is a horror! Logically, because that implies, time implies an interval between this and that. In that interval a great many other incidents, and stresses, and strains, and events happen, which change the course. 克：问题是——我不是在怀疑你—— 问题是这样，如果没有分析， 或者说，当我们懂得了它的徒劳， 或者我们看清了它的真相， 因而时间因素消失了， 这里指的是在顶层和底层地板之间 花费的时间 ——你理解吗？——根本没有时间。 因为当我们理解了分析的过程， 你也就理解了时间的过程，所以你就消除了时间。 我不知道你是不是这样。 所以我们要问： 观察必须从时间中摆脱出来。 对吗？ 不是我白天清醒， 白天的时候部分清醒， 然后睡眠通过梦境揭示出潜意识的内容。 所以两个都需要，缺一不可——你明白吗？ 那一切都引入了时间。 我没有时间。对我来说时间极其讨厌！ 因为按照逻辑，那意味着， 时间意味着在这和那之间的间隔。 在那个间隔中有许多其他的事故、压力、 紧张和事件发生， 它们改变了进程。
1:07:31 Q:It also implies the search, searching. 问：它也意味着寻找、搜寻。
1:07:34 K:Change the course. So time is really a most distracting affair. So when one realises that, the realisation of that fact that time is a distortion, a diversion, then where are you? Then what is observation without time? I wonder if you're getting all this! 克：改变了过程。 所以时间真正是最分心的事情。 那么当你认识到这点， 认识到那个事实， 即时间是一种扭曲、是注意力的涣散， 然后，你会怎样？ 那么，什么是没有时间的观察？ 我想知道你们有没有理解这些！
1:08:17 Q:If you are fully attentive is there a cellar? 问：如果你全神贯注，还会有地窖吗？
1:08:21 K:That's the point, sir. Therefore, what does this full attention mean? 克：那正是问题的关键，先生。 所以，这种全然的关注意味着什么？
1:08:32 Q:Those moments when I'm not expecting anything then I am fully attentive. 问：在我不期望任何东西的那些时刻， 我就是全然关注的。
1:08:36 K:No, I don't want moments, I want… [laughs] I'm not interested in occasionally having food. One's life is much too short - I want to enjoy the mountains and the trees, the loveliness of human - you know, I want to enjoy and as long as this isn't clear, all this, there's no joy in life. And joy is always now, not tomorrow or yesterday. So time is a factor which is most destructive. And so, is there observation without time? See what is implied in all this. Time, observation without time, observation without the censor, observation without resistance, without control, without a motive, without an achievement. I don't know if… What does that observation mean? Is it possible? Or we are merely pursuing a fancy, a dream, a lovely thing to be like that but it is just vain, it has no meaning. You see, they say train. Train yourself, practise, watch how you move your toe, your finger, your mind, your thought - you follow? - watch, watch, watch, take time, take years! At the end of it, what? What have you got at the end of it? Not to have reactions when you see Marilyn Monroe? You follow, sir? That's what they're after - which is so idiotic - I don't want to go into all that. No, I don't know, you may laugh, but you see, sir, the monks throughout the world have trained themselves to this. They never see the beauty of the earth, the beauty of the tree, the beauty of a woman or a man - it's just the book and their idea of Jesus, or salvation and truth, it's just - you follow? - a battle going on everlastingly inwardly, never a moment of beauty, tremendous enjoyment of life. So, if I'm serious I must find this - you follow? - it isn't just a dream; either it is so or it is not so. Which means the mind must everlastingly dwell in conflict - that's its habitation. If that is a reality then it's all right, we accept it. That means violence is absolutely part of life, part of man, only tame it, control it, shape it, be violent in certain directions, be peaceful - I say that's impossible to live that way. So, in inquiring, not theoretically but actually - experiment means to put it to the test, to test it as you go along - is such awareness in which there is a total absence of the censor with all its implications - how does it happen? Not tomorrow, it must happen now. If it happens tomorrow it has no meaning, because when it happens tomorrow I've already built dozens of resistances, I've already distorted. I've taken a detour to come to tomorrow; the detour leads me off. So at the end of this, is the mind aware of all this? Aware in the sense, aware of the truth of all this? Not as an idea - the truth of naming, not naming, the description is not the described, the desire to seek and the implications of it, control - you know, see the truth of it - the truth, not the idea of the truth. Is that what we are doing now? Which brings us to another issue, which is: what is love then? Is love a matter of time, culture, a thing of pleasure and therefore dependency? What do you say, sir? Or is awareness love? Is attention, the sense of total - to use the word which is so hackneyed, so spoilt - love? When there is love do you control? Oh, I mustn't go into all this. Yes, sir, you think it out. Watch it and you'll see the most extraordinary things happen. 克：不，我不想要一些时刻我想要……【笑】 我对偶尔有饭吃不感兴趣。 人的生命太短暂了 ——我要享受山峰和树林，欣赏人身上的美好之处—— 你们知道，我要享受一切，但是，只要这些还不清楚， 生活中就没有喜悦。 喜悦永远是现在，不是昨天或明天。 所以时间是一个 最具破坏力的因素。 那么，存在没有时间的观察吗？ 看看这一切都意味着什么。 时间，没有时间的观察，没有审查者的观察， 没有抗拒、 没有控制、 没有动机、 没有成就的观察。我不知道是否 那种观察意味着什么？ 它可能吗？ 或者我们只是在追寻一个幻想、一个梦想， 一件看似相近的美丽事物，但实际上徒劳无功、毫无意义。 你看，他们说训练。 训练你自己，练习， 观察你怎样移动你的脚趾、 你的手指、你的意识、你的思维——你明白吗？—— 观看，观看，观看，花费时间，花费数年！ 末了，怎么样？最后你得到了什么？ 当你看到玛丽莲·梦露的时候，不要有反应？ 你明白吗，先生？那就是他们追求的 ——如此愚蠢——我不想深入探讨那些。 不，我不知道，你也许会笑，但是你看，先生， 全世界的僧侣都朝这个目标训练他们自己。 他们从来没看到大地的美、树木的美， 一个女人或男人的美——而只知道 关于耶稣、救赎和真理的书本和观念， 那只是——你明白吗？—— 内心一场永无休止的战争， 没有任何一刻享有生命之美、生命的巨大喜悦。 所以，如果我认真，我就必须发现这些——你明白吗？—— 它不只是个梦； 要么是这么回事，要么不是。 那意味着头脑必定永远处于冲突之中 ——那是它的居所。 如果那是事实，那么，好，我们接受它。 那就意味着暴力必定是生活的一部分、人的一部分， 只能驯服它、控制它、塑造它，选择在某些特定的方向上 是暴力还是和平——我说以那种方式生活是不可能的。 所以，在探询中，不是理论上而是真正去探询， ——实验的意思是进行检验， 去检验它， 当你进行下去—— 这样的觉知， 其中完全没有审查者 及其所隐含的一切 ——它是怎么发生的？ 不是明天，它必须现在就发生。 如果它明天发生，就没有什么意义， 因为如果它明天发生， 我就已经建立了很多的抗拒， 我已经扭曲了。 我走了一条弯路到明天；弯路使我迷失了。 所以，到了最后， 头脑觉察到这一切了吗？ 觉察的意思是指，认识到这一切的真相了吗？ 不是作为一个观念 ——关于命名或不命名的真相， 描述不是被描述之物， 追寻的愿望以及它的含义， 控制——你知道，看到其中的真相—— 真相，不是真相的概念。 那就是我们正在做的事情吗？ 这把我们带到了另外一个问题，就是：那么，什么是爱？ 爱是一个时间或文化问题吗， 是一件快乐 进而依赖的事情吗？ 你怎么认为，先生？ 或者觉察是不是爱？ 关注，是不是完整无缺的爱的感觉？ ——“爱”这个词已经被彻底糟蹋、彻底毁掉了—— 有爱的时候你还会控制吗？ 噢，我不能深入讲这个。 是的，先生，你自己去考虑清楚。 观察它，你就会看到有最非凡的事情发生。
1:18:41 Q:Well, in love, I should think that there must be awareness. 问： 哦，我会认为在爱中 必然存在觉察。
1:18:50 K:No, sir, not 'I should think.' [Laughs] What is love? 克: 不，先生，不是“我会认为。”【笑】什么是爱？
1:18:56 Q:Well, I meant to go on, if I might.

K:Sorry. 		问：哦，我想继续说下去，如果可以的话。

克：抱歉。
1:19:01 Q:I wanted to suggest that awareness couldn't be love because one could be aware of torture and one wouldn't love it. 问：我想说的是，觉察不可能是爱， 因为一个人可能觉察到折磨， 而他是不会爱它的。
1:19:24 K:Sir, is love a thing of thought? 克：先生，爱是思想的事情吗？
1:19:35 Q:I should think not. 问：我会认为不是。
1:19:38 K:No, no - not 'should think not' - I don't know. 克：不，不——不是“会认为不是”——我不知道。
1:19:41 Q:I'll rephrase that now. [Laughter] 问：那我现在换个词。【笑声】
1:19:53 K:Then what is pleasure? What is pleasure and love? These are dangerous questions - you follow, sir? No, no, don't… What relationship is sex to love? If pleasure is not love - be careful, I'm not saying it is or it is not, we're inquiring - then what place has enjoyment? I don't know if you've gone into all this. 克：那么什么是快乐？ 什么是快乐和爱？ 这些是危险的问题——你明白吗，先生？ 不，不，不要 性和爱是什么关系？ 如果快乐不是爱——请注意，我没有说它是或不是， 我们在探询—— 那么喜悦有什么位置？ 我不知道你有没有探究过这些。
1:20:39 Q:It seems to me it would depend on how you use your pleasure, how you use your sex. 问：在我看来，那取决于你怎么用你的快乐， 你怎么用你的性。
1:20:46 K:Ah! No, no. Who is using it? For God's sake don't… Use - what do you mean use? 克：啊！不，不。谁在用它？看在老天的份上不要 使用——你说的使用是什么意思？
1:20:52 Q:I might rephrase it. In other words, if sex is just lust or something like that... 问：我可以换个说法。换句话说， 如果性仅仅是性欲或类似的东西
1:20:57 K:Sir, wouldn't you approach the problem, approach it… by negation come upon the positive? Which is, what is joy and pleasure? What is enjoyment? Enjoyment, sir. Enjoyment, doesn't it mean no memory of having enjoyed? Right, sir? Come on, sirs. 克：先生，你难道不要弄清这个问题吗， 弄清它 通过否定而使正确的浮现？ 那就是， 什么是喜悦和快乐？ 什么是喜悦？喜悦，先生。 喜悦，难道它不意味着没有对过去享受的记忆？ 对吗，先生？一起来，先生们。
1:22:05 Q:I think it's the feeling you get when you have complete communication... 问：我认为它是你有的感受， 当你有彻底的交流时
1:22:09 K:No, sir. No, don't… [laughs] If you remember your enjoyment and are enjoying that remembrance, it is pleasure and therefore it is not enjoyment. So is love pleasure? For God's sake, sir, this is such a tremendously serious thing we're playing with. 克：不，先生。不，不要……【笑】 如果你记得你的享受， 并且享受那个记忆， 它就是快乐， 所以就不是喜悦。 那么，爱是快乐吗？ 看在上帝的份上，先生， 我们面对的是一件极其严肃的事情。
1:23:01 Q:Pleasure is a dead thing. By definition, pleasure is a remembrance. 问：快乐是个死的东西。 按照定义，快乐是一个记忆。
1:23:09 K:Obviously. 克：显然如此。
1:23:11 Q:Then love can't be that because love is not... 问：那么爱就不会是那个，因为爱不是
1:23:14 K:So what relationship - follow it, sir, careful - what relationship with sex, enjoyment, joy, pleasure, remembrance - you follow? 克：那么什么关系——请跟上，先生，仔细点—— 性、享受、喜悦、 快乐、 和记忆，是什么关系——你跟上了吗？
1:23:32 Q:It would seem to me that pleasure excludes love because it excludes relationship, but love can include sex, it can include... 问：在我看来快乐排除了爱， 因为它排除了相互关系， 但爱能包含性，它能包含
1:23:43 K:Oh, I don't know anything about all this, sir. Look at the complexity of it, sir. First see how complex this question is. I mean, throughout the ages, man, in seeking God, whatever it is, says no sex - you follow? - to serve God you must be celibate. You follow? 克：噢，关于这些我什么都不知道，先生。 看看它的复杂性，先生。 先看这个问题有多么复杂。 我是说，世世代代以来， 寻求上帝或者无论什么的人， 都说不要性——你明白吗？—— 要服务上帝你就必须单身。
1:24:09 Q:I see that. It doesn't seem right. 你跟上了吗？ 问：我知道这个。那看起来不对。
1:24:11 K:Don't say it doesn't seem right or wrong, go into it. Because they said desire is wrong, therefore kill out desire. And they can't kill out desire, therefore they concern themselves with the desire for Jesus, for saviour - you follow what I mean? - or social reform, or whatever it is, missionary work and helping the heathens, and all that. Until the mind understands this whole business of the observer, and all that, and also the sense of joy, which has nothing to do with entertainment, being entertained, or getting joy of reading a poem, and pleasure, sex, tenderness, kindliness, gentle - you follow? - the whole of that. 克：不要说看起来对或错，深入进去。 因为他们说欲望是错误的， 所以就扼杀欲望。 而他们扼杀不了欲望，所以他们就让自己投身于 对耶稣、救世主的渴望——你理解我的意思吗？—— 或者社会改革，或者无论什么， 传教的工作和帮助野蛮人，诸如此类。 直到头脑识破了 观察者的整个把戏，和那一切， 也懂得了喜悦感， 与消遣、娱乐 或读诗得到的享受 和快乐、性， 温柔、 友好、文雅等所有那些都无关——你跟上了吗？——
1:26:02 Q:Sir? I don't exactly understand how enjoyment has nothing to do with reading a poem and getting joy from reading a poem or… 问：先生？我不太理解为什么喜悦与 读诗和从读诗得到的享受或者……无关。
1:26:14 K:Look, sir, to derive enjoyment through something is to depend on something. 克：你看，先生，通过什么得到享受 就是去依赖某个东西。
1:26:22 Q:But you can enjoy something. 问：但你能享受那个东西。
1:26:24 K:Ah! I enjoy the sunset because I'm joyous [laughs] - which is different - Sorry, I'm… 克：啊！我享受日落，因为我内心喜悦【笑】 ——那是不同的——对不起，我
1:26:32 Q:Yes, I see. 问：噢，我明白了。
1:26:41 K:If I have a problem eating my heart out, how can I look at those mountains? I'm sorry, you all ought to be sitting here and I there. You see, what we are talking is so contradictory to everything. I don't know… I mean, the priest, the Catholic priest is revolting against the Church, after going through tortures to say, 'Now I won't anymore' - it has no meaning. So, sir, this is it. I don't know how much you have communicated with each other. Is it time?

Q:Nearly half past five. 		克：如果我有个问题让我伤心欲绝， 我怎么能观赏那些山峰呢？ 抱歉，应该你们坐这儿，我坐那儿。 你看，我们所说的跟一切是如此矛盾。 我不知道 我是说，牧师，天主教的牧师 在反抗教会， 历经了折磨之后说： “现在我会不再那样了”——那没什么意义。 所以，先生，就是这样。 我不知道你们彼此交流了多少。 时间是不是……

问：快五点半了。
1:28:44 K:An hour and a half - that's enough. 克：一个半小时了——够了。
1:28:47 Q:If I understand it correctly, you're not asking what should be the relationship between sex and love but what is it in fact, and I don't see how that could possibly have a simple answer. It is what is. I can't see how we can say it is this or is that. 问：如果我理解正确的话，你并没有问 性和爱之间的关系应该是什么， 而是问事实上它到底是什么，我看不出 那个问题怎么可能有一个简单的答案。 事实上如何就如何。我不明白我们怎么能说它是这样或那样。
1:29:00 K:No, sir. We can't put these into categories but what we can do is… I mean, as human beings have to relate all this, the truth of all this, or the beauty of all this, and so one has to inquire endlessly. You follow what I mean? 克：是的，先生。我们不能把这些简单归类， 但我们能做的是 我的意思是，因为人类必须了解这一切， 这一切的真相， 或者这一切的美， 所以，人必须不断地探询下去。你理解我的意思吗？
1:29:37 Q:One does have to start out with a particular strategy. 问：人确实需要从某个特别的策略出发。
1:29:40 K:No, no, no, no. The moment you observe when there is joy, you say, 'What strange phenomenon this is' - suddenly to feel extraordinarily something and see the pleasure of it - you follow? - how pleasure comes out of it. Which is thought cultivating that incident as pleasure and pursuing that. Oh no, this requires enormous attention - you follow? - watching like a hawk. 克：不，不，不，不。 当喜悦来临时，你一旦观察到，你会说， “这是多么奇怪的现象” ——突然感到某种非凡的东西 并且看到其中的快乐 ——你明白吗？——快乐是怎样从中产生的。 就是思想把那个事件 培养成快乐，并去追逐它。 噢，不，这需要极大的注意力——你明白吗？—— 像鹰一样观察。
1:30:43 Q:Does this watching root out the deep censor or does it just free the mind from the effects of the censor? 问：这种观察根除了深处的审查者吗？ 还是它只不过把头脑从审查者的影响中解放了出来？
1:30:51 K:No, in this watching there is no censor at all. This watching implies the absence of the observer. 克：不，在这种观察中根本没有审查者。 这种观察意味着审查者的缺席。
1:31:20 I think we'd better stop, don't you? 我想我们最好打住，好吗？