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ML70DSG6 - 意识中的恐惧
第六次小组讨论
美国，马里布
1970年3月22日



0:14 K:Shall we go on where we left off yesterday? We must go through it, whether we like it or not, sorry. We were asking: how does it happen that the deep layers hidden in consciousness be exposed? That was the question we were asking and I'm afraid we didn't go into it completely. Whether it is through dreams, through attention, through awareness, through analysis, and so on. I don't know how far you have gone into it, about it yourself since yesterday. So can we discuss it, open it up? 克：我们从昨天结束的地方继续，好吗？ 我们必须回顾一下，不论我们是不是愿意，抱歉。 我们问过： 隐藏在潜意识 深处的层面 怎样才能被暴露出来？ 这就是上次我们问的问题， 而且恐怕上次我们没有把这个问题谈彻底。 是不是需要通过梦、 通过关注、通过觉察、 通过分析，等等。 我不知道从昨天开始 你自己对这个问题深入到了什么程度。 所以我们能不能来讨论并揭开这个问题？
1:48 Q:Sir, I don't think we exhausted the question of dreams. 问：先生，我认为我们还没有讨论完梦的问题。
1:54 K:We are coming to that, sir - we haven't even touched it. We just touched it yesterday. You know, this is a very serious matter, all this. I don't know how lightly you take it. What we are discussing is very, very serious because once you go into all this you can't just play with it. Either you go to the very end of it or don't touch it. Right? Please, I really mean it. Either you go to the very end of it or don't touch it at all. You can't take little bits of it and say, 'I'll use this.' Either you go from the beginning to the end or don't begin at all. Please... One can see that it is... that one can non-analytically observe the superficial conditioning. We're using the word 'conditioning' to explain all that we discussed yesterday, so that we don't have to go all over it again. But it becomes extremely subtle and arduous to explore the hidden things of life. How does one do this? The concealed motives, concealed drives, ambitions, and all the destructive, deteriorating factors that lie in the unconscious, deep down. 克：我们就要讨论那个，先生——我们几乎还没有触及到这个问题。 我们昨天刚刚开始触及。 你知道，这些都是非常严肃的事情。 我不知道你把这个问题看得有多么轻松。 我们正在讨论的事情是非常、非常严肃的， 因为一旦你开始探讨这些问题，你就不能把它视同儿戏。 你要么探究到底，要么就不要碰它。 好吗？ 请注意，我说的真是这个意思。 你要么一探到底，要么完全不去碰它。 你不能只研究其中的少数片段，然后说，“我要利用这点。” 你要么善始善终，要么根本不要开始。 恳请你们 一个人能看到 一个人能不作分析地 观察表面的制约。 我们用“制约”这个词 来解释我们昨天讨论的所有内容， 这样我们就不必再重复一遍了。 但要探索生活中隐藏的东西 显得非常微妙和艰难。 那该怎么办呢？ 那些隐匿的动机、隐匿的动力、野心， 以及所有破坏性的、退化的因素， 都隐藏在潜意识深处。
4:38 Q:When you're involved in something, the hidden is apt to come out when you are involved… [inaudible] 问：当你参与到某些事情中， 当你被牵涉进去，隐藏的东西就容易浮现出来……【听不清】
4:43 K:When you are involved, Dr. Weininger says, they come out. So you must, according to him, commit yourself, involve yourself in some action, in order the hidden parts of one's being are exposed. That is, commit yourself in some activity, and through that activity watch your own responses, and these responses will be from the very deep layers. That means one depends on action, on a commitment, on an involvement in some activity. Right, sir? 克：当你牵涉进去，威宁格博士说，它们就出来了。 那么，按照他的说法， 你必须让自己投身于、参与到某种行动中， 以便暴露自身的存在中隐藏的部分。 那就是，让你自己投身于某个活动， 并通过那个活动观察你自己的反应， 而这些反应会来自于非常深的层面。 那就意味着一个人依赖于行动、依赖于一种义务， 依赖投入到某些活动中去。对吗，先生？
6:11 Q:Or in a relationship.

K:In some relationship. I don't know what you all feel. Please, sir, don't let me talk endlessly. 		问：或者投入到关系中。

克：某种关系中。 我不知道你们都是怎么想的。 拜托，先生，不要让我不停地说。
6:37 Q:It seems to me - I don't know if the wording is quite right, it could sound like we have to do something in order to, but to me it seems like we're relating all the time, and when we... And I don't know if I exactly understand this idea of commitment, what you mean by commitment, but if you… Usually I think, or... we resist commitment - life is commitment, I think, in the sense that we're talking about, and that we resist commitment because of those... because of what's… the hidden, because of the hidden. You don't say, 'I'm going to commit myself,' you just are aware of relationships from moment to moment. You're aware of relationship with everything. And that is commitment, in a way. 问：我不知道用词是不是准确， 在我看来，好像我们必须为了什么去做点事情， 但对我而言，好像我们一直是联系在一起的， 并且，当我们 而我不知道我是不是准确理解了“投入”这个概念， 你说的“投入”是什么意思，但如果你 通常我认为……我们抗拒“投入” ——我认为，生活就是投入，在我们刚才所说的意义上， 而我们之所以抗拒“投入”是因为那些 是因为那些隐藏的东西。 你没有说，“我要投身其中，” 你只是一刻不停地觉察到各种关系。 你能觉察到与万事万物的关系。 从某种意义上说，那就是投入。
7:41 K:What do you say, sirs? Are you saying, sir, that all life being relationship, living is relationship, and therefore you're already committed, involved? 克：你们怎么认为，先生们？ 先生，你是说，所有的生活就是关系， 活着就是关系， 所以你早就投身其中、参与其中了？
8:01 Q:In a sense...

K:Yes. You're already involved, and there it is. 		问：在某种意义上……

克：是的。 你已经参与进去了，就是这样。
8:05 Q:But we hide from it. We sort of hide from it, withdraw from it. 问：但我们躲避它。我们好像躲着它、远离它。
8:10 Q:And that's when you can see the hidden of it. As you see you're hiding you can see that's the hidden. 问：而这时你就能看到隐藏的东西了。 因为你发现你在躲藏，你能看到那些隐藏的东西。
8:27 K:What is it we are discussing? I'd like to be clear about it once again. 克：我们在讨论什么？ 我想再来澄清一下。
8:38 Q:Aren't we discussing resistance to... we call resistance the hidden thing, what we call the unconscious, the things that prevent us from relating, or from... 问：难道我们不是在讨论抗拒吗 我们把抗拒叫作隐藏的东西， 就是我们说的潜意识， 那些阻碍我们之间联系的东西，或者
8:58 Q:I think we're talking about the revelation of the unconscious and whether one needs to be committed to any particular action or to be involved in activity in order to see oneself. 问：我认为我们在讨论揭露潜意识的问题， 以及是不是需要让自己投身于任何特定的行动 或参与行动以便看清自己。
9:12 Q:Could we be talking about simply those parts of our being we're just unaware of? For instance, I'm in a certain situation and I start behaving in a certain manner, and I'm not at all aware of how I'm behaving, almost asleep to it. And then I can think that I'm aware by all of sudden talking to myself, and pretend like I'm watching, but actually all the actions, if you saw them in a mirror, you wouldn't even be aware that you were doing them. And then, I notice when I go through a day oftentimes, that my mind tends to concentrate on things, and as it starts to concentrate things, it starts to screen out other things, and just starts to focus itself on one particular goal or on one particular activity, that I lose awareness of sound, and sight, and all sorts of activity that's happening around me. And even I lose awareness of how I'm actually behaving in that situation, and so my mind is so set on a certain thing that it's occupied with. I'm aware... unaware... Almost asleep. 问：我们能不能简要谈谈我们生命中 那些尚未意识到的部分呢？ 举个例子，我在某个特定的处境下， 并且我开始以某种方式行动， 而我根本不知道我是怎么行动的，几乎毫无察觉。 然后，我突然对自己说，我认为我意识到了， 并且装作我在观察，而实际上所有的动作， 如果你从镜子里去看的话，你甚至不知道 你在做那些动作。 然后，我注意到当我度过平常的一天， 我的头脑倾向于专注在某些事情上， 而当它开始专注于某些事情时， 开始浮现其他的事情， 于是它就开始把自己集中到某个特定的目标上 或某个特定的行为上， 这样我就失去了对声音和景象 以及我周围发生的所有活动的觉察。 我甚至不知道在那种情形下我实际上是怎么行动的， 于是我的头脑就牢牢固定在某个占据它的事情上。 我有意识……没意识……几乎是睡着的。
10:29 Q:Which, I think, might raise the question if, you know, further activity is actually a distraction rather than a process of self-revelation. 问：我认为这也许带来了这个问题， 你知道，进一步的行动是不是实际上是一种注意力的分散， 而不是一个自我揭示的过程。
10:44 Q:Isn't life action. Life is action. I mean activity, if we think of it as a conference, something we do, but we act all the time. We are acting. That's part of the problem, I think - we're separating… like action is something that we do, not that we are action. 问：生活难道不就是行动吗？生活就是行动。 我是说活动，如果我们把会议或我们做的事情当作活动， 但我们一直在行动。 我们在行动。 那是问题的一部分，我认为——我们在分离 就像行动是我们做的什么事情，而不是我们就是行动。
11:13 Q:Well, isn't it true that action may come out of conflict or it may come out of wholeness? And if it comes out of conflict then there are parts of us of which we're not aware. 问：那么，行动可能产生于冲突， 也可能产生于整体，难道不是吗？ 如果它从冲突中产生， 那么我们身上就有我们还没觉察到的部分。
11:37 Q:But we see it. We are aware of it the minute we act, the minute it comes up. You can feel it, you can feel resistances. 问：但我们看到了它。我们行动的那一刻， 行动产生的那一刻，我们就意识到了。 你能感觉到它，你能感觉到抗拒。
11:51 Q:Yes, but action can sometimes be a way of shutting out the mind, some part of us. 问：是的，但行动有时候会是一种遮蔽头脑、 遮蔽我们的一部分的方式。
11:59 Q:But then you're aware of it.

Q:Of the part that's denied? 		问：但你能意识到它。

问：意识到被否定的部分吗？
12:03 Q:Because it seems to me that whenever we act in order to go somewhere else than where we are then there's a resistance, because you're torn. I'm always torn between... I can feel it the minute that I'm acting, when I'm not acting in accord with, what you say - wholeness. You can see it and then you're aware of resistance. 问：因为在我看来，不论我们什么时候行动， 只要是为了从我们所在的地方去到另外的地方， 那么就会有抗拒， 因为你被撕裂了。我总是在什么之间被撕扯着。 在我行动的那一刻我能感觉到它， 当我没有按照你说的“整体”行动时。 你能看到它，然后你觉察到抗拒。
12:28 K:Sir, weren't we discussing yesterday afternoon that one of the fragments - because we are broken up - one of the fragments assumes the responsibility of the actor, of the censor, the one who resists, and dominates other fragments of which we are made up. We were asking yesterday: how does it happen to observe without the censor? To observe all the many fragments, not let one fragment assume superiority over the others but to observe. In this observation, we were saying, there is no censor, no resistance, nor the past, with all its knowledge, and tradition, and experience. That's what we were saying yesterday, to which we all - not agreed - we saw what is involved in it. And this, we said, is attention. Right? We are saying what we... This we called attention. In this attention there's no concentration - concentration being a form of resistance, exclusion, building wall against the other - thoughts, impulses, and so on. And we said that's fairly easy to do superficially. It's fairly easy to observe one's nationalistic idiocy outwardly, and wipe it out. But we were inquiring into the more, or deeper layers of this whole structure which is called the 'me.' We were asking ourselves whether these layers can be exposed without analysis. Because we said analysis implies time, and there are… God knows how many layers one has, and you take an infinite number of days, years, and by the end of it one is ready for the grave. So we said: is there a perception which sets aside or which is not involved in time, in analysis, in resistance or judgment? That's what we said. 克：先生，难道昨天下午我们没讨论 碎片之一——因为我们破碎不堪—— 碎片之一承担了行动者、 审查者、抗拒者的责任， 并支配 组成我们的其他碎片。 我们昨天问： 怎样才能不带着审查者去观察呢？ 观察所有的碎片， 而不让一个碎片凌驾于其他碎片之上， 而只是去观察。 我们说，在这种观察中， 不存在审查者，没有抗拒， 没有带着它所有的知识、传统和经验的过去。 这就是我们昨天说的，对此我们都——不是同意—— 我们看到了其中涉及到了什么。 而我们说，这就是关注。 对吗？我们说 我们把这个叫做“关注”。 这种“关注”不是专注 ——专注是一种抗拒和排斥的形式， 筑一道墙隔离其他的东西——想法、冲动等等。 并且我们说过 从表面上这么做很容易。 从外在观察一个人国家主义的愚蠢行为 并消除它，是相当容易的。 但我们进一步探询了 或者深入了那个被称为“我”的整个结构更深的层面。 我们问自己， 不通过分析 这些层面能不能被暴露出来呢？ 因为我们说过分析意味着时间， 并且，天知道 一个人究竟有多少个层面， 你花费无尽的岁月， 而末了只能走向坟墓。 所以我们说：是否存在一种 摒弃了时间 或不牵涉时间和分析、 不牵涉抗拒或判断的觉知呢？ 那就是我们所说的。
16:35 Q:Didn't we also say, Krishnaji, that any act of description was an act of the censor. 问：难道我们不是也说过，克里希那吉， 任何描述的行为都是审查者的行为。
16:41 K:Oh yes, of course. Any act of description, explanation, is not the thing described or explained. So the word is not the thing. That's what we said. Right. Now, how does this happen? One sees very clearly if there is any division, separation, between the layers of the... deep-down layers and the superficial layers, then there must be constant conflict. And apparently that's our life. Superficially we may be highly polished, because circumstances demand it, society, industrialisation, this or that, that we should be more or less outwardly civilised. Civilised in the sense not spit at each other actually. But deep down we do spit at each other. We do tear each other apart verbally and non-verbally. Bearing in mind that in this observation there is no naming, no verbal application to that which is seen - right? We're all following each other? 克：噢，当然说过。 任何描述、解释的行为， 都不是被描述或被解释之物。 所以，词语并不是事情本身。我们是这么说的。 对。那么，这怎么才能发生呢？ 一个人看得非常清楚， 如果在各个层面之间， 在深层和表层之间， 存在任何分裂、分离， 那么就必然存在持续的冲突。 而显然这就是我们的生活。 表面上我们可能被修饰得优美高雅， 因为环境要求这样，社会、工业化、 这个或那个， 要求我们表面上要或多或少是文明的。 在这种意义上的文明，即我们不实际上相互吐口水。 但在内心深处我们确实相互吐口水。 我们确实以言语或非言语的方式，要撕裂对方。 请记住，在这种观察中没有命名， 对看到的东西不使用语言——对吗？ 我们相互理解了吗？
18:24 Q:We examined that point, because, say, the simple thing, we always say that nationalism is easy to see, but how in fact do we perceive nationalism in ourselves without words, without naming it? What happens in the thinking?

K:Oh, that's fairly simple, isn't it? Born in a particular culture, society, economic strata, and so on, all the rest of it, nationalism, which is a form of tribalism, is deeply rooted in most people. Some tribalism, not... Right. Surely by becoming aware of it, one has the feeling for it, hasn't one? The feeling without the word: 'my country.' 		问：我们检验了那一点，因为，比方说，一个简单的事情， 我们总说国家主义是很容易看到的， 但事实上我们是怎样不带言语、不去命名地 觉察我们自身中的国家主义的呢? 在思维中发生了什么呢？

克：那相当简单，不是吗？ 出生于一个特定的文化、社会、经济阶层， 等等，诸如此类， 国家主义，就是部落文化的一种形式， 它深深植根于大多数人心中。 某种部落主义，不……好的。 无疑，通过察觉它，一个人能感觉到它，不是吗？ 不通过那个词也能感觉到：“我的国家”。
19:24 Q:But that is in itself the word.

K:Ah, no, no - the feeling. 		问：但它本身就是那个词。

克：啊，不，不——是那个感觉。
19:29 Q:The concept arises with the feeling. 问：概念随着感觉浮现。
19:31 K:Wait, look, is the feeling the result of the concept, verbal idealisation, or is the feeling 'my country' separate from the word? You have to work this out.

Q:Isn't it a concept in either case? It's either a feeling that one has, on looking at the mountains or the flag, whatever it is, it is brought about by a concept, because there's no such thing as a country - it's a concept that is man- made. So isn't there a concept inevitably in that, in order to be aware of that at any level? 		克：等一下，你看，感觉是 概念和语言表达的结果呢， 还是“我的祖国”这种感觉与那个词是分开的？ 你必须解决这个问题。

问：难道两种情况不都是概念吗？ 一个人看到群山或者国旗，或者无论什么， 都会有一种感觉， 那种感觉由一个概念带来， 因为并没有国家这回事 ——它是个人造的概念。 所以，要在任何层面上意识到这点， 这其中难道不是必定存在着一个概念吗？
20:10 K:Madame, are you saying: we are ruled by concepts, formulas, and one of the formulas is nationalism. Is there a feeling of nationalism without the formula? Is that what you're... 克：女士，你是不是说： 我们被概念、模式统治着， 而其中一个模式就是国家主义。 如果没有那个模式，会不会有一种国家主义的感觉呢？ 那是不是你想说的
20:42 Q:It's possible. It's possible to be directly conditioned without even knowing that you're being conditioned. 问：有可能。有可能直接就被制约了， 你甚至都不知道你被制约了。
20:49 Q:And then you have a concept going anyway. 问：那么你无论如何都会有个概念。
20:52 K:Yes, you're still ruled by a concept. 克：是的，你仍然被一个概念统治着。
20:54 Q:Separate. 问：分开的。
20:55 Q:No, you wouldn't have a concept, you're just directly conditioned to... 问：不，你不会有概念， 你只是直接被制约了
20:58 K:Which is the result of a concept. 克：那是概念的产物。
21:00 Q:Well, that's the layers of the concepts, isn't? Conditioning is a concept. If you are conditioned... 问：哦，那就是概念的不同层面了，不是吗？ 制约是个概念。如果你被制约
21:05 Q:Only if you think about the conditioning, but you may be conditioned to have an emotional response and all you have is the emotional response without any idea... 问：只有你想到制约的时候， 但是你也许受到了某种制约而产生情感反应， 并且你有的只是情感反应而没有任何想法
21:14 Q:If you're conditioned to it, doesn't that establish one or a multiplicity of concepts? What otherwise would condition you except... 问：如果你被这样制约着，难道那不就建立了一个 或很多个概念吗？ 其他的也会制约你，除了
21:23 Q:It may be a band playing or a flag waving. 问：那可能是一个在演奏的乐队，或一面在挥动的旗帜。
21:27 Q:Yes, but there has to be, for a reaction in you, that must have some association, which is the concept. 问：是的，但你必然会有所反应， 必然会有某些联想，那就是概念。
21:36 Q:It's a response of the conditioning. 问：那是对制约的反应。
21:38 Q:You're frightened that something's going to wipe away... 问：你被吓坏了，因为什么东西要清除
21:40 Q:If I respond to a band playing, that my perception of the band playing, you're saying that's a concept? 问：如果我对一个乐队的演奏作出反应， 我对乐队演奏的感知， 你说那是一个概念吗？
21:48 Q:Well, if you have an association with the flag, or the band, or whatever it is, that is something already established in your memory, whatever it's linked up with, whatever your chain of association is. 问：哦，如果你对那面旗帜有个联想， 或者对乐队，或对无论什么， 那就是已经留在你记忆中的东西， 不论它与什么相关联， 不论你联想的链条是什么。
22:01 Q:Or you wouldn't react. 问：或者你没有反应。
22:03 Q:No I don't have to have... I don't have to be associated to a concept. I may be directly conditioned without any concept in it at all. 问：不，我不必有 我不必与一个概念联系起来。 我可能根本没有概念而直接被制约。
22:14 Q:If you never heard a band at all, the moment you heard it you'd be conditioned by it? 问：如果你从来没有听过一个乐队演奏， 你听到它的那一刻，你会被它制约吗？
22:22 Q:I think that could happen. 问：我认为那有可能发生。
22:25 Q:By the time it reached your consciousness, would that have been conditioned? 问：当它到达你的意识的时候， 已经被制约了吗？
22:31 Q:By the time it reached your consciousness, would that have been conditioned? 问：当它到达你的意识的时候， 已经被制约了吗？
22:36 Q:If it's a reaction, isn't that the same as conditioning, that the time element isn't necessarily intrinsic to conditioning. It can be awfully quick. I can make a face at you right now and you can instantly be conditioned by that in a moment. 问：如果那是一个反应，难道那和制约不是一回事吗？ 时间因素对制约而言 不一定是必需的。 它可能非常快。 我现在就能对你做个鬼脸， 而你瞬间就会被它制约。
22:55 Q:Yes. 问：是的。
22:57 Q:So it's the same process. I don't know, is this the same... 问：所以，那是同样的过程。我不知道，这是不是同样的
23:02 K:I think it's all right. We will continue in the same manner. 克：我认为那没问题。我们将以同样的方式继续下去。
23:08 Q:But is there a difference between perception of a so-called objective thing, such as the tree, and the moment we are going to something like nationalism, which is an abstraction, aren't we immediately in a realm of concepts as opposed to... 问：但是， 对像树这样的所谓的客观事物的感知是不是有所不同， 而我们一旦遇到像国家主义 这样的抽象概念， 难道我们不是立即进入了概念的领域吗，相对于
23:30 K:Surely. One can look at that tree non-verbally, without the image of the tree which I've seen before - naming it, and all the rest of it. Can I... to observe the tree without the word, that's comparatively easy if you have played with that thing. Now, the nationalism is subjective, inward, and it is an idea, a formula - my country, my government, my people, my tribe, with its particular rituals, and so on, so on, so on. All that is... from childhood has conditioned me. I may outwardly wipe it away but deep down it's still there - the formula, it still exists. 克：肯定是的。一个人可以不着文字地看着那棵树， 不带着我以前见过的树的形象 ——给它命名，诸如此类。 我能不能……不带言语地观察那棵树， 如果你尝试过这件事情，那是比较容易的。 既然国家主义是主观的、内在的， 并且它是一种观念、一种模式—— 我的祖国，我的政府，我的同胞，我的部落， 以及它特定的仪式，等等，等等，等等。 这一切……从童年就开始制约我。 我可以从表面上清除它， 但它仍然留在我内心深处 ——那个模式，仍然存在。
24:42 Q:In other words, when you say you look at that formula without words, you can still look at your relationship to the concept but you don't use words in looking at that relationship. 问：换句话说，当你说你看着那个模式而不带言语， 你还可以看着你与概念的关系， 而你在看那个关系时，不使用言词。
24:52 K:We're asking, sir - that's the whole point - how to... We're asking... an observation in which there is no verbalisation or formulation. 克：我们问的是，先生——那就是整个问题所在——怎样 我们问的是 一种观察，其中不存在语言化或公式化。
25:08 Q:But that doesn't mean you have to get rid of the word 'country'... 问：但那并不意味着你必须扔掉“国家”那个词
25:11 K:Leave that for the moment. See it. As you can observe the tree without the formula, therefore in that there is no resistance, there is no division, and if you really have watched it very closely, the space between the observer and the thing observed disappears. 克：暂时放下那个问题。看一看。 当你能够观察那棵树而不带着模式， 于是其中就没有抗拒、 没有分离， 而如果你确实非常仔细地观察它， 观察者和被观察者之间的空间就消失了。
25:42 Q:Sir, that may be true of the tree but when one is looking... 问：先生，对树可能是真的，但当一个人看
25:45 K:Wait, sir. Do it, sir! Do it first with the tree. You will see what is implied in it. You want to go immediately into something a little more complex. Look at that tree, or any bush, or any flower, and see if it is possible - no, not 'possible' - to see, observe without the formula, without space, without the word. And when you do so observe, watch the state of the mind that observes it - not as you as an observer but the mind itself watching the tree. 克：等一下，先生。去做，先生！先在看树的时候这么做。 你会看到其中隐含着什么。 你想立刻就进入更为复杂的东西。 看看那棵树、灌木从或者任何一朵花， 看看有没有可能——不，不是“可能”—— 去看、去观察，而不带着模式， 没有空间、也没有言语。 当你确实这样观察时， 留意那个正在观察的头脑的状态 ——你不是作为观察者， 而是头脑本身在观察那棵树。
26:47 Q:May I ask why, once somebody has done this, why it is more difficult for somebody to observe nationalism... 问：请问，一旦某个人做到了这点， 那为什么观察国家主义就更困难呢？
26:56 K:I'm coming to that, sir. First let's do this, see what is implied in it. An observation in which the formula doesn't exist - the formula being the past, the past with which one of the fragments of the 'me' has identified itself as the observer, the censor, the knower, the actor, the experiencer, and with those eyes of the past I look at that tree. And so there is the tree separate from the observer. The observer, by watching without the word doesn't become the tree, which would be absurd, but watches without any interference of thought - thought being the response of memory, which is the past. Now, do it, see what happens. Then inquire into the state of the mind that watches it, watching that tree with that quality. Now, if we can call that attention, in which the observer with all its commitments, associations, is absent - that is fairly easy to do because it is unrelated to me, it won't interfere, it won't insult me, it won't hurt me, it won't butcher me, it won't do all kinds of things to me. But to observe the whole movement of myself in that way becomes incredibly difficult. 克：我就要谈到那点了，先生。 让我们先说这个，看看其中隐含着什么。 一种没有模式存在的观察 ——模式是过去， 借助过去，“我”的碎片之一 将自己认同为观察者、审查者、 认识者、行动者、经历者， 并且，我用过去的眼睛去看那棵树。 所以那棵树与观察者分离开来。 观察者，通过不带言语地观察，并不会变成那棵树， ——那很荒谬—— 而只是观察，不让任何思想干涉进来 ——思想是记忆的反应，记忆就是过去。 现在，这么做，看看会发生什么。 接下来探究正在观察的头脑的状态， 它以那样的品质观察那棵树。 那么，如果我们能称之为关注， 其中观察者以及它所有的承诺、联想都缺席 ——那是相当容易做到的，因为与我无关， 它不会干涉，它不会侮辱我，不会伤害我， 它不会扼杀我，它不会对我做任何事情。 而要以那种方式观察自我的整个运动 就变得非常困难。
29:21 Q:The moment you suggest observing one's observation of the tree, then I think, at least many of us, get in trouble, because immediately there becomes another thing, when there was just the tree, and then suddenly there becomes: what is my action, what is my awareness, what is my observation - and that becomes a separate...

K:No, no, but you see… Look, please do listen to this, it's quite... To look, to observe the whole movement of myself is necessary for the learning of the 'me' - right? To learn about myself, which is essential because myself is the society, the world, the family, the wife - I am all that - to watch myself with the past is always either condemnatory or justifying, and therefore there is never an ending to conflict. I don't know if you're following all this. But to observe without the observer is to learn - which is not to accumulate because the thing which is being observed is in constant movement. Right? I can only observe very dispassionately, objectively, with something that's dead, which doesn't interfere, arouse various reactions in me. Can I... is it - these words! - to observe without the reaction of the past. I don't know if you have tried all this, or have done it. If you don't do this, conflict is inevitable, obviously. Because where there is an observer separate from the thing observed there is not only space, time, and all the reactions, and therefore division, and so conflict. This is simple. I have an image about my wife and she has an image about me, which each of us have built through twenty years, thirty years, or ten years, or ten days, and the relationship is between these two images, and therefore conflict. Therefore all relationship will inevitably breed conflict. Right? This is so. Everybody's silent. You're all much married, aren't you? [Laughter] I'm not, so it's all right. Now, these images - I have an image about myself, and I have an image about the world, and I have an image based on innumerable formulas of what should be - what was, what is and what should be - I have so many images. All these images are me. Right? And these images invariably divide each other, therefore the conflict within. Each image is inevitable - that's one's way of living. Now, to find out a life in which there is no image and no conflict - that's what we are inquiring. As one can observe the tree dispassionately, without naming, and all that, and if you observe more attentively, the space also disappears - really does disappear, if you've ever played with that kind of thing. The space, which is the time interval between the observation and the contact, totally disappears. This also can be brought about through chemicals - LSD and other forms of chemical warfare [laughs] - which is artificial and on which one depends more and more, and then there is a great deal of fear, and all that's involved. Now, one is asking oneself whether it is... one is asking: an observation of oneself, which is in constant movement, without the time element, without the verbalisation of what is seen, without the censor, the resistance, and so on, so that between the observer and the observed space disappears inwardly. I wonder if you've got this. 		问：当你建议观察一个人对树的观察， 我想，至少我们多数人都会陷入困境， 因为马上变成了另外一件事情， 原来只有那棵树，然后突然变成了： 我的行动是什么，我的感知是什么，我的观察是什么 ——那就变成分开的……

克：不，不，但是你看 你看，请务必听听这点，它非常 去看、去观察自我的整个运动 对了解“自我”来说是必要的——对吗？ 了解自我 是必要的，因为自我就是社会、 就是世界、家庭、妻子——我就是那一切—— 带着过去观察我自己， 总是要么谴责，要么辩护， 所以冲突永远无法终结。 我不知道你们是否完全理解了这点。 但不带有观察者的观察就是了解 ——那不是积累， 因为被观察的事物在持续的运动中。 对吗？ 我只能非常平心静气地、客观地观察 带着某些死去的、 不再干涉、唤醒自我的各种反应的东西。 我能不能……【听不清】 去观察而不带着过去的反应。 我不知道你们有没有尝试过这一切，或者有没有这么做过。 如果你不这么做，显然冲突就是不可避免的， 因为哪里存在与被观察之物分离的观察者， 就不仅存在空间、时间，还有所有的反应， 所以存在分裂，然后导致冲突。 这很简单。 我对我妻子抱有形象， 而她对我也有个形象， 这些形象都是我们用二十年、 三十年、十年或十天建立起来的， 所以关系是这两个形象之间的关系， 于是就有了冲突。 因而所有的关系都不可避免地产生冲突。 对吗？就是这样。 每个人都很沉默。 你们大多都结婚了，不是吗？【笑声】 我没结婚，所以一切都还好。 那么，这些形象——我对自身抱有形象， 关于世界我有个形象， 并且我有个形象， 它基于无数个应该如何的原则 ——过去如何，现在如何，又应该如何—— 我有如此多的意象。 所有这些意象就是我。对吗？ 而这些意象总是彼此分离， 所以其中存在冲突。 每个意象都是不可避免的——那是一个人的生活方式。 那么，要找到一种生活， 其中没有意象和冲突 ——那就是我们所探询的。 当一个人能够平心静气地观察那棵树， 不命名，以及诸如此类， 并且如果你更加用心地观察，空间也会消失—— 确实会消失，如果你曾经尝试过这种事情的话。 那个空间，就是 观察和对象之间的时间间隔， 它完全消失了。 这也能通过化学药品得到 ——LSD致幻剂和其他形式的化学战争【笑】—— 那是人造的，并且一个人会越来越依赖， 随后就是大量的恐惧，这一切都会牵涉其中。 现在，一个人在问自己是否……一个人在问： 对自身的一种观察，处于持续的运动中， 不带有时间成分， 不对看到的事物进行语言化， 不带有审查者、抗拒，等等， 所以观察者和被观察者之间的空间从内在消失了。 我想知道你有没有理解这点。
35:57 Q:I have a question, sir. Is that observation within the field of the known? I mean, is it, if you are observing at that level yourself, is that - well, that's the only way I can put it - does it make any sense? - is it within the field of the known? 问：我有个问题，先生。 那种观察在已知的范畴中吗？ 我的意思是，如果你在那个层面上观察自身， ——这是我唯一能够表达的方式—— 那它有什么意义吗？——它在已知的范畴中吗？
36:16 K:No, it's not, obviously. The known is the past. All knowledge is the past. One is adding all the time to the past, and one's life is the past, isn't it? And the past, modified in the present: the future - and so on, so on. Now, to learn about oneself requires this quality of attention in which there is no distortion in observation. Right? When there is an observation of condemnation, of the censor, of resistance, the resistance, condemnation of the censor, is a distortion. Right? And I learn about distortion. So one is asking oneself to observe without distortion. 克：不，它不是，显然不是。 已知就是过去。 所有的知识都是过去。 人总是往过去中增添内容， 所以他的生活就是过去， 不是吗？ 并且那个过去，现在被修改， 成为未来——等等，等等。 那么，要了解自己， 就需要这种品质的注意力， 在观察时没有扭曲存在。对吗？ 当观察谴责、 审查者、抗拒的时候， 审查者的抗拒、谴责，就是一种扭曲。 对吗？ 于是我了解了扭曲。 所以一个人要求自己不带扭曲地去观察。
37:53 Q:May one ask if there isn't before the approbation or condemnation - which could be a sort of judgment - a second step? In the actual perception of what happens, is there an image in that? This is where I get it… How do we perceive? 问：请问在赞成或谴责——那可能是某种判断—— 之前，是否存在第二个步骤呢？ 在实际感知事情发生的过程中，存在一个形象吗？ 这就是我所理解的……我们要怎样感知呢？
38:13 K:How do you observe...

Q:Not saying it's good or bad… 		克：你要怎样观察……

问：而不说它是好是坏
38:16 K:How do you observe with - ah, no - are you asking: is the very observation the product of the image? 克：你通过什么观察——啊，不—— 你是不是问：观察本身是不是 形象的产物？
38:36 Q:Isn't there an image factor in that? 问：难道其中没有形象的因素吗？
38:39 K:I don't think so. I don't think so. Do it. You'll find out if you do it. 克：我不这样认为。我认为没有。 去做。如果你这么做，你会找到答案的。
38:45 Q:That was what my question was, what I was asking before: is it within the field of the known. That immediate, that perception, that has to be in the field of the known... 问：那就是我的问题，先前我问的是： 它是否在已知的范畴中。 那么迅速，那种洞察 必定是在已知的范畴中
38:56 K:Am I looking, sir, am I looking at myself with an image which I have? The very look is the product of the image. Are you asking that? 克：我是不是，先生， 我是不是在通过我抱有的意象来看我自己呢？ 那个看恰恰是意象的产物。 你问的是这个吗？
39:15 Q:I'm trying to ask what actually happens when we look. If we look at an objective thing, surely an image goes through the optic nerve, and so forth. Then it either activates associations, knowledge, and so forth, which as I understand it you call the known, the image, and that is either brought into play, in most of us, or if you are looking directly we somehow perceive without activating all that. But when we look at something that hasn't that simple mechanism of an outward thing, it's an abstraction. I cannot seem to see how you can examine that, examine... 问：我想问当我们看的时候实际发生了什么。 如果我们看一个实物，肯定会有一个影像 穿过视觉神经，等等。 然后它会激活联想、知识，等等， 就我的理解，那就是你说的已知、形象， 并且，要么在我们多数人身上，它会发挥作用， 要么，如果你直接观察，我们就能在某种程度上感知， 而不激活所有那些东西。 但当我们看某些没有那么简单的外在机制的东西， 那就是一个抽象的概念。 我好像不明白你怎样去检验它，检验
39:58 K:No, no! The point is: then is there anything to be examined at all? As long as I have an image then there is examination of another image. If there is no image at all - image being the censor, the resistance, approbation, all the rest of it - what is there? 克：不，不！关键在于：到底有没有任何东西要被检验呢？ 只要我有一个意象，那么就存在对另外一个意象的检验。 如果根本没有意象 ——意象就是那个审查者、 抗拒、赞成，诸如此类 ——还有什么呢？
40:32 Q:There are no instructions then.

K:No, no, please, do... 		问：那就没有说明了。克: 不，不，请
40:36 Q:Apart from… [inaudible] 问：除了……【听不清】
40:45 K:If I have no opinion about you, no opinion at all, what's our relationship? Or rather, what is the state of the mind that has no opinion? It is not a dull mind, it is not a vague mind, anthropomorphic mind, it has seen the futility of opinions and is free of it. So such a mind can look much clearer than the mind that's cluttered up with dozens of opinions. 克：如果我对你没有看法，一点看法也没有， 那我们的关系是什么呢？ 或者不如说，没有看法的头脑是什么状态呢？ 它不是一个迟钝的头脑，它不是一个模糊的头脑， 不是类人猿的头脑， 它看到了观念的徒劳并从中解脱出来。 所以这样一个头脑比被诸多意见所充塞的头脑 看得更清晰。
41:41 Q:But, sir, in that example there at least is an objective human being, a 'you,' somebody sitting there. Whereas if one tries to look at an abstraction - nationalism, or any abstraction there isn't, in our realm of thinking, there isn't a thing, another thing, it is a concept. Therefore I am still hung up on how you examine without fragmentation. 问：但是，先生，在那个例子中至少有一个客观的人， 一个“你”坐在那儿。 然而，如果一个人努力去看一个抽象的概念 ——国家主义，或任何抽象概念， 在我们的思想领域， 并不存在一个实物，另外一件东西，它是个概念。 所以，我仍然不明白你怎能不通过碎片去检验。
42:13 K:I'll show you. I'll show you. Why do we have concepts at all? Why do we have formulas at all? Do, please… Why do you have them? There is God, there is no God, the State is the most... etc. - you know, dozens and dozens of formulas - why? 克：我会展示给你，我会指给你看。我们到底为什么要有概念呢？ 我们到底为什么要有原则呢？ 请回答……我们为什么有那些东西？ 上帝存在，上帝不存在，国家是最……等等 ——你们知道，许多许多的模式——为什么？
42:40 Q:It gives us security. 问：它给我们提供安全。
42:43 K:I don't know. Don't guess at it, find out. Why do we have formulas? As an American citizen, as a Hindu, Catholic - what for? 克：我不知道。不要猜测，去找出答案。 我们为什么有模式呢？ 作为一个美国公民， 作为一个印度教徒、天主教徒——为什么呢？
43:04 Q:It's just conditioning.

K:Ah, no, sir, look: living in Italy, if you're not a Catholic, belonging to the established order, you'll find it awfully difficult - you don't get jobs so easily, you can't marry your son or daughter, or whatever it is - things become extremely difficult. You may laugh at the Church - you follow, sir? - but the formula of the Catholic becomes very important, so you stick to it - it's profitable. So there is physical security on the one side and psychological security on the other. Formulas are for security. There is God - finished. I believe in it. Or there is no God, and I believe in it. Tremendous safety. But if you believe in no God in a very believing community then you're thrown out. So we have formulas - right? Are we aware of these formulas, first? Not how to get rid of them, is one aware of these formulas? 		问：就是因为制约。

克：啊，不，先生，你看： 生活在意大利，如果你不是一个天主教徒， 不属于既定的社团，你会发现生活非常困难 ——你不容易找到工作，你不能解决子女的婚姻问题， 或任何其他事情——事情变得极端困难。 你可以嘲笑教会 ——你明白吗，先生？—— 但天主教的模式变得非常重要， 所以你坚持它 ——这会让你受益。 所以，一方面存在身体上的安全， 另一方面也存在心理上的安全。 模式是为了安全而存在的。 存在上帝——那就结束了。 我信仰它。 或者上帝不存在，我信仰这点。 巨大的安全感。 而在一个非常信仰上帝的国家， 如果你不信仰上帝，你就会被驱逐。 所以我们抱持着各种模式——对吗？ 首先，我们意识到这些模式了吗？ 不是怎样排除它们， 而是一个人意识到这些模式了吗？
44:52 Q:Not if we're conditioned to them. 问：如果我们被它们制约了就意识不到。
44:57 K:Ah, you can point to me and say, 'Look, you are conditioned by a belief as a Brahmin living in India with certain tradition.' That's been repeated. I say, 'You are perfectly right, I can throw them out.' Not that I'll become a Catholic - I'll throw it all out. If I'm fairly intelligent or aware I throw it all out. But the roots of it, the deep, instinctual responses of the conditioning are still there. So we come back to that question: how to expose all the content of the layers? You haven't answered my question. You're the experts, sirs. 克：啊，你可以指着我说： “看，你相信自己是一个生活在印度、有着某些传统的婆罗门， 你被这个信仰所制约。”这句话被反复地说。 我说，“你完全正确，我会把它们抛弃。” 不是我要变成一个天主教徒——我将彻底抛弃它。 如果我非常智慧或清醒，我就会完全抛弃它。 但它的根基， 制约深层的内在反应仍然在那里。 所以我们回到那个问题： 怎样把各个层面的所有内容都暴露出来呢？ 你们还没有回答我的问题。你们是专家，先生们。
46:05 Q:Could we perhaps look into the possibility of there being a root cause for all... 问：我们能不能探讨一下 所有这一切都有一个根本原因的可能性
46:12 K:Of course, sir, there is.

Q:A singular root cause. 		克：当然，先生，有根本原因。

问：就一个根本原因。
46:15 K:A singular root. 克：就一个根源。
46:18 Q:That would make it simpler. 问：那会将事情简化。
46:19 K:Ah, no, not a question of simplicity! [Laughter] 克：啊，不，不是关于简单性的问题！【笑声】
46:28 Q:Fear seems to be at the root of almost all of it. Fear. We have obvious concepts and formulas and the reason we stick to them is because we become very dependent on all of them... 问：恐惧似乎是几乎所有东西的根源。 恐惧。我们抱有显而易见的概念和模式， 而我们坚持它们的原因 是因为我们变得对它们都非常依赖
46:40 K:All right, sir, I'm afraid - take that. I'm afraid and therefore I depend - on a formula, on a friend or on my wife, and so on. This dependence I call love, and all the rest of it. Right? There is fear behind it. Now, I can observe superficial fears and perhaps wipe them out. The deeper layers of fear, very deep fear, of which I may be unconscious, not aware, now how do I bring it out? Because until I bring it out I'm living in darkness - you follow? - I will depend on some formula, not on this particular formula but on something else. How do I... how does the mind deeply root out fear? 克：完全正确，先生，我害怕——就拿这个做例子。 我害怕所以我依赖 ——依赖于一个模式、一个朋友或我的妻子，等等。 这种依赖我称之为爱，以及诸如此类的一切。 对吗？恐惧隐藏在它后面。 现在，我能观察表面的恐惧， 并且可能会扫除它们。 恐惧更深的层面，深藏的恐惧， 我可能觉察不到， 那么我怎么才能把它暴露出来？ 因为我会一直生活在黑暗中，直到我把它暴露出来——你明白吗？—— 我会依赖某些模式， 不是依赖这个特定的模式，而是别的东西。 我怎么……头脑怎么才能从深处根除恐惧呢？
47:52 Q:Sir, I notice that in my own particular case, what generally is productive of this bringing out of the symbols or the censor, is that I divide the world up into the bits that I like and the bits that I don't like. And in order to get to the bits that I like, I have this symbolic universe that I have created in order to get to them. But that leaves the bits that I don't like on the other side then. But I have a question which arises out of that, if I may. That is that there's no getting out of that, because we're sort of stuck in that, living in a society such as we have, and most of us work in some kind of technological area in which we spend most of our time and in which we have to live in a symbolic universe, so to speak. Well, now, my question is: how can one live in a symbolic universe, technological universe, think in a technological way in order to earn a livelihood, and so on, and yet be aware of that process at the same time? 问：先生，我注意到在我自己特定的情况下， 这种暴露出符号或审查者的过程 通常可能产生的结果是 我把世界分成我喜欢的部分片段 和我不喜欢的部分片段。 而为了实现我喜欢的部分， 为了得到它们 于是就建立了这个符号化的世界。 但那样就把我不喜欢的部分留在了外面。 而从中我产生了一个问题，如果可以的话， 那就是，并不存在从中脱离这回事， 因为，生活在我们这样的社会里，我们某种程度上是被困在里边了， 并且我们多数人都在某种技术领域中工作， 把我们的大部分时间都花费在上面， 我们不得不生活在一个符号化的世界里，不妨这样说。 那么，我的问题是： 一个生活在符号领域、技术领域， 为了谋生等等而以技术方式思考的人， 怎么能够同时意识到那个过程呢？
49:05 K:One has to earn a livelihood in the technological world and also one has to live a life in which there is no fear. Right? That's what we are inquiring. We are saying: deep down there are many fears. The releasing of these fears makes the mind obviously extraordinarily intelligent. And that intelligence will operate both in the technological field and yet not bring about fear. I don't know if... So that's why we have to inquire into this question whether fear can totally be exposed, right down at the very roots of our being. Go on, sirs, I'm doing it. Proceed. How does this happen? 克：一个人必须在技术领域谋生， 并且他也必须过一种没有恐惧的生活。 对吗？ 那就是我们正在探询的。 我们说： 有很多深层的恐惧。 这些恐惧的释放显然 会使头脑变得非常智慧。 并且那种智慧也会 在技术领域发挥作用， 而不会带来恐惧。我不知道 这就是我们为什么探讨这个问题的原因， 也就是，在我们生命里深深扎根的 那些恐惧能不能被全部暴露出来。 继续，先生们，我正在这么做。深入下去。这怎么才能发生呢？
50:35 Q:My question before, or my statement before with regard to a root cause - perhaps if we were to find a root cause of all fears... 问：我先前的问题，或者我先前关于根本原因的表述—— 也许如果我们要找到所有恐惧的根本原因
50:44 K:We're coming to that, sir, we're coming to it. You'll see it in a minute yourself. 克：我们正在接近，先生，我们正在接近这个问题。 你一会儿就会亲自看到。
50:55 Q:Is there perhaps almost like a bottleneck in the procedure at which there is, say, a mass of unconscious fears, and all the rest of the conditioning? But the moment when that operates, the moment when that enters your thinking, enters your action, really, isn't that the moment when it can be dealt with? As you said yesterday, we cannot explore the endlessness of one's own unconscious... 问：在这个过程中是不是可能存在一个瓶颈， 在那里，比方说，有大量无意识的恐惧， 以及诸如此类的制约？ 而当它起作用的时候， 当它真正进入你的思想、 进入你的行为的时刻， 难道那不就是处理它的时机吗？ 像你昨天说的，我们不能没完没了地探索 一个人的潜意识
51:27 K:Look, madame… 克：你看，女士
51:28 Q:The moment that it comes up, like a bubble to the surface, can't we deal with it then? 问：它一出现，就像一个气泡浮到表面， 那时我们难道不能处理它吗？
51:36 K:That means one by one. 克：那意味着一个一个地。
51:38 Q:No - well, one by one in that every moment of living... 问：不——那好，在生活的每一个瞬间一个一个地
51:42 K:Ah, I've no time, that's too long. I want to get rid of the beastly thing altogether. 克：啊，我没有那么多时间，那太漫长了。 我想一并摆脱这些可恶的事情。
51:49 Q:Yes, but would time be a factor in it at all if it were immediately... 问：是的，但时间究竟是不是一个因素，如果它立刻被
51:54 Q:Well, it might take a year for a certain feeling to rise up. 问：哦，某种感觉浮现出来可能要一年的时间。
51:57 Q:All right, but we... 问：好吧，但我们
51:59 K:We'll find out, we're going to find out. 克：我们会找出答案，我们会弄清楚的。
52:01 Q:Sir, could it be that to really look at it… 问：先生，真正看一看是不是那样
52:04 K:Don't guess, sir, don't guess… 克：不要猜想，先生，不要猜测
52:06 Q:I'm not guessing.

K:...because then we're lost. 		问：我不是在猜想。

克：……因为那样我们就迷失了。
52:09 Q:But I notice that I keep escaping from looking at this, these things, because the very thing that I escape from, as I'm looking at fear I become afraid. But if I'm not looking at that fear, that fear that keeps me from going deep down... 问：但我注意到我一直在逃避看这个，这些东西， 因为它们正是我逃避的东西， 当我看着恐惧的时候我变得害怕。 而如果我不看那个恐惧， 那个恐惧就让我深入不下去
52:23 K:We're going to find out, sir. 克：我们会去弄清楚，先生。
52:27 Q:It seems to me that fear has a sort of stigma attached to it, so that I can't look at it without condemning it. I mean - you follow? - that seems to be the real problem. 问：在我看来，恐惧有一种坏名声， 所以我没法不谴责地看它。 我的意思是——你明白吗？——那好像才是真正的问题。
52:37 K:No, do let's be more efficient and practical. You have fears, haven't you? What do you mean by that - fear? 克：不，让我们更有效率，也实际一些。 你有恐惧，不是吗？ 你说的恐惧，指的是什么呢？
52:55 Q:Resistance.

K:No, no. You see, don't verbalise it immediately. You have a fear. 		问：抗拒。

克：不，不。 你看，不要马上把它语言化。你有一个恐惧。
53:06 Q:Doesn't it mean, sir, of a pair of opposites that we create, or a pair of alternatives, a polarity, we want one side but we want to avoid the other? And in the course of pursuing the one side we have a fear that the other might happen. 问：先生，难道它不意味着我们制造了两个对立面， 或者一对选择、一种极端性，我们想要一方面 而想避免另外一方面吗？ 而在追求其中之一的过程中， 我们有一种另一方面可能会发生的恐惧。
53:23 K:Yes, sir, I understand all that. What is, to you, fear? 克：是的，先生，我明白这些。对你来说，恐惧是什么呢？
53:28 Q:It seems to me that fear is grave insecurity. 问：对我来说恐惧是严重的不安全。
53:33 K:Is it an abstraction? 克：它是个抽象概念吗？
53:35 Q:Reaction. An action where you... 问：反应。一种行动，当你
53:40 K:Is it an abstraction or is it in relation to something? 克：它是个抽象概念吗，或者它是与什么东西有关的？
53:47 Q:In relation to the unknown. 问：与未知有关。
53:49 K:Known, unknown, future, past, present. It is in relation to something, isn't it? It's not an abstraction by itself. Right? Now, in relation to what? 克：已知，未知，将来，过去，现在。 它与什么东西有关，不是吗？ 它本身并不是一个抽象的概念。对吗？ 那么，与什么有关呢？
54:11 Q:But isn't it…

K:Watch it! I just want to go… just go slowly a little bit, a little bit slowly. I don't want to hold the field by my... You can have your... a little second later. It is in relationship to something - right? - the past, the future, job, you know, your wife running... death, love. Right. In relationship between what? 		问：但难道它不是……

克：观察它！ 我只是想……慢慢来，慢一点儿。 我不想通过我的……来保持权威， 稍等一会儿你就可以有自己的 它与什么东西有关——对吗？—— 过去、未来、工作， 你知道，你的妻子跑掉……死亡、爱。对。 是什么之间的关系呢？
54:37 Q:Myself? 问：我自己？
54:39 K:No, do look at it, sir, don't... Between what? 克：不，看一看，先生，不要……在什么之间的？
54:53 Q:We have our image of the world and we have our image of ourself, and the conflicts that those images produce in us, the feeling, is fear. 问：我们对世界抱有形象，我们也有我们自己的形象， 然后这些形象在我们之间产生了冲突，这种感受就是恐惧。
55:01 K:My dear chap, just a minute. I'm asking you - move away from that corner - I'm asking you: when you're afraid, two things take place. You and the thing afraid of, the fear of something. These two, what is the relationship of these two? 克：我亲爱的小伙，等一下。我在问你 ——离开那个角落——我在问你： 你害怕的时候，有两件事情发生。 你和害怕的事物，对某个东西的恐惧。 这两个，这两者之间的关系是什么呢？
55:29 Q:Delusion.

Q:There's space. 		问：是错觉。

问：有空间。
55:34 K:Look at it, sir, don't... Look at it a little more close, take time, a little bit. I am afraid - fear. Fear exists only in relationship to something - the relationship between two. Now what are these two? What are these two? 克：看看这个问题，先生，不要 看仔细一点儿，不要着急，仔细一点儿。 我害怕——恐惧。 恐惧只存在于与什么东西的关系中 ——两种东西之间的关系。 那么，这两个东西是什么呢？ 这两个东西是什么？
56:01 Q:Fear of the consequences. 问：对后果的恐惧。
56:04 K:One is permanent - do see it! - one is permanent, the other is a relationship with the impermanent which might bring danger. 克：一个是永恒的 ——务必看到这一点！——一个是永恒的， 另外一个是与不永恒的一种关系， 那种不永恒可能会带来危险。
56:23 Q:Could you say that again in another way? 问：你能换个方式再说一遍吗？
56:28 K:I'm lost. Look, sir, I am afraid of the past, fear of the past. Therefore, a relationship between something that is permanent, which is now, and something which has happened yesterday. Right? 克：我不知道说到哪儿了。 你看，先生， 我害怕过去，对过去恐惧。 所以，在永恒的东西，也就是现在 和昨天发生的事情之间 有一种关系。对吗？
56:57 Q:I don't see how the permanent can be threatened by... 问：我不明白那永恒的东西怎么会受到威胁。
56:58 K:Wait, sir, do look at it, I may be saying it wrongly. You'll find out. You follow? There is a division between yesterday and today. The today is afraid of yesterday, and the today is afraid of tomorrow. Today has compared itself with the past, which says, 'I don't like it, it's tremendously dangerous, that. That I was unhealthy, painful, had pain, today I don't like it.' Today doesn't like yesterday. So today is more important than yesterday. Right? 克：等一下，先生，请务必看一看，我也许说错了。 你会弄清楚的。 你明白吗？ 在昨天和今天之间存在一种划分。 今天害怕昨天， 今天也害怕明天。 今天把自己与昨天比较，说， “我不喜欢昨天，那样太危险了。 我不健康、痛苦，有疼痛，今天我不喜欢它。” 今天不喜欢昨天。 所以，今天比昨天重要。对吗？
57:49 Q:That means that there is no today.

K:Wait! That's a theory, sir. Do look what is taking place. I wish you would go slowly - you're not... Sir, today is judging the past, the relationship is between today and yesterday. Today is - let's call it for the moment - permanent. Today is the only thing that matters, because I'm unhurt at this moment. At this moment I'm healthy. At this moment I haven't lost a job. At this moment my wife hasn't turned away from me. At this moment I believe. This moment, in relation to the past, says, 'There's fear.' Obviously - this is simple. No? 		问：那意味着没有今天。

克：等一下！那是一个理论，先生。 看看到底在发生什么。 我希望你走慢一点——你不……. 先生，今天在判断过去， 关系是今天和昨天之间的关系。 今天——让我们暂时称之为——永恒的。 今天是唯一至关重要的，因为我此刻毫发无伤。 此刻我很健康。 此刻我没有丢掉工作。 此刻我的妻子没有背叛我。 此刻我相信。 和过去联系到一起之后，此刻说，“有恐惧。” 显然——这很简单。不是吗？
58:55 Q:Or tomorrow, you said, fear of tomorrow. 问：或者明天，你说过，对明天的恐惧。
59:00 K:Of course, of course.

Q:But fear is in the future, because you can't fear something that is right now. We have to fear it happening. 		克：当然，当然。

问：但恐惧在未来， 因为你不能害怕现在的事情， 我们要害怕的是它会发生。
59:08 K:So today in relation to tomorrow is afraid. Today in relationship to yesterday is afraid. Comparing today - perfect health, perfect happiness, I'm living. Yesterday I wasn't living - I did something terrible, it mustn't happen again, I'm afraid of that. You know, all that business. Right? No, don't accept this, please. Right, sir. 克：所以，今天和明天联系到一起就是害怕。 今天和昨天联系在一起就是害怕。 与今天相比——今天我非常健康、 非常幸福，我活着。 昨天我没有活着——我做了可怕的事， 它不能再发生，我害怕那样。 你知道，所有这些把戏。 对吗？ 不，请不要接受这个。
59:45 Q:Can I ask for five minutes?

K:Yes, sir. So can we say that the comparison between today, and yesterday, and tomorrow, comparison is fear? Right?

Q:Can't one be afraid of today? 		好吗，先生。 问：请问能给我五分钟吗？

克：好的，先生。 那么，我们能不能说 今天和昨天、明天之间的 比较就是恐惧呢？ 对吗？

问：难道一个人就不能害怕今天吗？
1:00:13 K:No, you will see in a minute, sir. Don't ask - see what we do, what is happening in oneself. If there were - these words! Comparison has done this. Yesterday I was unhappy, today I'm happy. Yesterday I was not healthy, pain, today I'm all right. 'For God's sake, it mustn't happen again to us' - I'm afraid of tomorrow. This comparison between 'what is' with 'what has been' and 'what will be,' is the process of fear. Right? Now, can the mind be free of comparison? 克：不是，你一会儿就会看到的，先生。不要问——看看我们做了什么， 在自己身上发生着什么。 如果有—— 比较使然。 昨天我不高兴，今天我高兴。 昨天我不健康、痛苦，今天我很好。 “看在老天的份上，不要再发生在我们身上” ——我害怕明天。 这种在“现在如何” 与“过去如何”和“将来如何”之间的比较， 就是恐惧的过程。 对吗？ 那么，头脑能不能从比较中解放出来呢？
1:01:27 Q:To be free of comparison you would have to be free of thought. 问：要摆脱比较你就必须摆脱思想。
1:01:30 K:No, wait, don't complicate it, sir - look, investigate, see the problem involved in it. How difficult it is to be free of comparison, because we are brought up from childhood conditioned to compare. You are clever, I am not, you have better marks than I, you're the... I'm the lowest in the grade, you're the highest - grade A, B, C. You follow? We are conditioned from childhood to compare. 克：不，等一下，不要把它弄复杂了，先生——去看、去探究， 看到其中牵涉的问题。 要摆脱比较有多么困难， 因为我们从童年起就在比较的制约中长大。 你聪明，我不聪明，你分数比我高，你是 我是年级中分数最低的，你是最高的————分了甲乙丙级。 你明白吗？我们从童年起就被制约着去比较。
1:01:59 Q:And the comparison is conceptual. 问：而比较是概念性的。
1:02:02 K:No. First see how we compare, not what it does. This is a better car than that. You are more beautiful than I. This is a better cream for your face than this. Everything is comparison. Better writer, better critic, more money. You follow? So comparison. And one's whole life is based on this, it's conditioned by this. So I'm asking: fear exists as long as there is this comparative look, and comparative look exists as long as there is a measure. Right? Measure means, measure according to one's like and dislike - which is an illusion. You're getting all this? No, sir. 克：不。首先来看我们怎样比较，不是具体比较什么。 这辆车比那辆好。 你比我更漂亮。 对你的脸来说，这个面霜比那个好。 一切都是比较。 更好的作家、更好的批评家、更多的金钱。 你明白吗？如此这般的比较。 而人的整个生活都以这种比较为基础，被它制约。 所以我问：只要存在这种比较性的看，恐惧就会存在， 而只要有衡量就会存在比较性的看。 对吗？ 衡量意味着，根据一个人的好恶来衡量 ——那是一个错觉。你理解这些了吗？ 没有，先生。
1:03:27 Q:Is it always according to like and dislike, Krishnaji? For instance, if I have to do a task, if I have to open a can of beans, if I fail to do it, it doesn't occur to me that I'm being stupid about it, that I'm doing something wrong. Is that comparison? 问：总是根据喜欢还是不喜欢吗，克里希那吉？ 比如，如果我必须完成一个任务，如果我必须开一罐豆子， 如果我失败了，那并不意味着我做这件事很愚蠢， 或者我做错了什么。那是比较吗？
1:03:47 K:No, no. No, please, comparison - please stick to this thing. I compare two materials for a shirt. And I choose. I say, 'I like this better.' There is no conflict in that. There's no fear in that. But when you come along and say, 'That shirt looks terribly ugly on you, old boy,' then you say, 'By Jove…' - all the rest of it begins. Now, here I see very clearly - please, don't agree with me, this requires a great deal of penetration - that fear exists as long as there is comparative outlook, comparative observation between today, and yesterday, and tomorrow. So today is the measure of yesterday and tomorrow. Right? Right? Why does the mind have this measure? Because mind must be completely free of fear, otherwise it's a dead mind - right? - otherwise one lives in darkness, all the rest of it - fear. The moment there is fear one seeks security - in belief, in this or that, in neuroticism, in different ways. So fear is absolute blockage to life. And mind must be totally free of it. Now, I see comparison, so there is a measure. The measure is the permanent. Right? I'll vary it, I'll cut it into a long measure or short measure, but there will always be a measure. And that's the cause of fear. My measure may be an inch long and yours may be a yard long, but it is still a measure. Am I overpowering you? No, please, sir… 克：不，不，不是。比较——请抓住这个问题。 我比较衬衫的两种材料。 然后我选择。我说，“我更喜欢这种。” 这里面没有冲突，没有恐惧。 而当你过来，说， “你穿那件衬衫太难看啦，老兄，” 然后你说，“天哪……”——诸如此类就开始了。 现在，我看得非常清楚——请不要轻易同意我的说法， 这需要巨大的洞察力 ——只要存在比较性的观点，在今天、昨天、明天之间 进行比较性的观察，恐惧就会存在。 所以，今天就是昨天和明天的衡量尺度。 对吗？对吗？ 头脑为什么有这种衡量尺度呢？ 因为头脑必须完全摆脱恐惧， 否则它就是一个死去的头脑——对吗？—— 不然人就会生活在黑暗中， 诸如此类——恐惧。 一旦存在恐惧，人就会寻求安全 ——从信仰中，从这个或那个中，从神经质中，通过各种不同的方式。 所以恐惧绝对是生命的阻碍。 所以头脑必须完全摆脱它。 现在，我看到了比较，所以存在一个尺度。 那个尺度就是永恒。 对吗？ 我会改变它，我会把它切成或长或短的尺度， 但总是会有一个尺度。 而那就是恐惧的根源。 我的尺度可能是一英寸长， 而你的可能是一码长，但它仍然是个尺度。 我把你弄晕了吗？不，先生，请
1:06:21 Q:Isn't it necessary to shift your attention away from the fear to the comparison? 问：难道没有必要把你的注意力 从恐惧转移到比较上吗？
1:06:27 K:Ah, no! Who is to shift it? Don't be caught in that again. I see the simple fact that as long as there is a comparative outlook there must be fear. Let's hold on to that. The comparative outlook being: today is important because today I feel well, there's no danger, I've still got my job, my wife is still with me, there is no war, there is no... a beautiful day, Sunday. [Laughs] 克：啊，不！谁要去转移？ 不要再被它纠缠住。 我看到那个简单的事实， 就是，只要存在比较性的观点， 就肯定存在恐惧。让我们抓住这点。 比较性的观点是：今天很重要， 因为今天我感觉良好，没有危险， 我还有工作，我的妻子还和我在一起， 没有战争，没有……美好的一天，星期天。【笑】
1:07:10 Q:Even if she left it's still a beautiful day. 问：即使她离开了，这仍然是很美的一天。
1:07:14 K:Ah, no, no, no. Then the day becomes dark, I'm depressed, I'm lonely, I lack companionship, I've nobody to bully me or I bully - you know, the whole business of it. So, the measure is today. See, sir, what it's leading to. Right? The measure is the state of my mind of today. Today nobody has discovered the lie or the thing which I have done yesterday. They might discover it tomorrow, I'm afraid. So, today. Right, sir? Are you sure? Don't agree with this, please.

Q:No, no, I'm not sure about this. Because if I really compare an action with something that I did yesterday, say, for instance, yesterday I gossiped about my neighbours and today I was in a situation where I could gossip but I didn't, so I learned. 		克：啊，不，不，不。 然后整个天都灰了，我很沮丧， 我孤单，我没人陪伴， 没有人来欺负我或让我欺负 ——你知道，这整个把戏。 所以，那个尺度就是今天。 先生，看看它会带来什么。 对吗？ 尺度就是我的头脑今天的状态。 今天没人发现我昨天撒的谎 或做的事情。 他们可能明天会发现，我害怕。今天害怕。 对吗，先生？你肯定吗？ 请不要同意这个说法。

问：不，我对这点不太肯定。 因为如果我真的把一个行为 与我昨天做的什么事情进行比较， 比方说，昨天我说了我邻居的闲话， 而今天我仍然可以说闲话， 但我没有说，所以我明白了。
1:08:40 K:Ah, wait, see what has happened. Yesterday you gossiped about your neighbour, and if the neighbour gets to hear of it, says, 'You are another…' - you are afraid of that. 克：啊，等一下，看看发生了什么。 昨天你说了你邻居的闲话， 而如果邻居听到了，说，“你是另一个……” ——你害怕这种情况。
1:08:58 Q:No, I'm not afraid, because today I learned that I did not have to gossip about my neighbours... 问：不，我不害怕，因为我今天明白了 我没有必要说邻居的闲话
1:09:05 K:Yes, but you have done it. But you have done it. 克：是的，但你已经做了。但你已经说了。
1:09:08 Q:I did... 问：我说了
1:09:09 K:Therefore the neighbour hears it today, and therefore comes back to you and says, 'What the hell did you mean by it?' So you are afraid. You might have learned. 克：所以那个邻居今天听到了， 并且回来找你，说， “你那么说到底是什么意思？” 所以你害怕。你可能已经明白了。
1:09:19 Q:No, I wouldn't be afraid if I were totally aware of what I had done yesterday - and that is comparing. 问：不，我不会害怕，如果我完全明白 我昨天做了什么——那就是比较。
1:09:24 K:No. If you had... You have learnt not to gossip. But you have gossiped. That will hurt you. And you hope your neighbour won't hear of it. 克：不。如果你……你已经知道不说闲话了。 但你说过闲话。那会伤害你。 于是你希望你的邻居不要听到那些闲话。
1:09:37 Q:If you change your behaviour then maybe you're not afraid. If you really change your behaviour. If you change your behaviour why would you be afraid because you feel free? 问：如果你改变你的行为，然后你可能就不害怕了。 如果你真地改变你的行为。如果你改变你的行为， 因为你感觉自由了，那你为什么还要害怕呢？
1:09:48 K:Today I've changed my behaviour - right? 克：今天我改变了我的行为——对吗？——
1:09:51 Q:Yes. 问：是的。
1:09:52 K:But I've done something wrong yesterday. I hit you yesterday. 克：但我昨天做了错事。我昨天打你了。
1:09:55 Q:It didn't matter if you learned. If you learned that something... 问：如果你明白了那就无关紧要了。如果你明白了一些事情
1:09:58 K:Ah, no, no!

Q:Sir, aren't we… 		克：啊，不，不！

问：先生，难道我们不
1:10:00 K:No, look, look what has happened. 克：不，你看，看看发生了什么。
1:10:05 Q:We're associating what we are right now with what we were before. There it is. And if you don't associate, you're through with it. 问：我们把我们现在的情况跟以前的情况联系起来。 就是这样。而如果你不联系，你就跨越了这件事。
1:10:16 K:That is, if you say, 'I'm sorry, I've finished, I will never again gossip.' 克：那就是，如果你说，“抱歉，我到此为止了， 我以后再也不说闲话了。”
1:10:23 Q:Well, yes...

K:Wait, wait, wait. That is, to learn completely about gossip - you will never gossip. And when the lady comes back, or neighbour comes back, and says, 'What the devil do you mean by it?' I say, 'I'm awfully sorry I did it,' it's finished. There's no fear in that, if you have finished. 		问：嗯，是的……

克：等一下，等一下，等一下。 那就是，完全明白了闲话这件事——你就不会再说闲话了。 当那位女士或邻居回来找你， 说，“你那么说到底是什么意思？” 我说，“我对我那么做感到非常抱歉，”事情就结束了。 如果你了结了这件事， 就没有恐惧。
1:10:46 Q:But that's because what we saw and what we did yesterday, we think that's permanent. That's us today and it'll be us tomorrow, but that's not true.

K:Yes, sir, yes, sir. But if I... 		问：但那是因为我们昨天看到的或做的事情， 我们认为那是永久的。今天我们是那样，明天我们还会是那样， 但那不是真的。

克：对，先生，是的，先生。 但如果我
1:10:56 Q:Why isn't it true?

Q:Because we're not... I'm not what I was yesterday... 		问：那为什么不是真的呢？

问：因为我们不是 我不是昨天的我
1:10:59 Q:But if you have learnt, why isn't it true? 问：但如果你已经明白了，那为什么不是真的呢？
1:11:01 Q:If you're not a gossip, what I'm saying is coming back I'm saying you're a gossip. 问：如果你不是一个爱说闲话的人，我说的 就回到了我说你是个爱说闲话的人。
1:11:04 Q:Your not listening.

Q:Yes. 		问：你没有听。

问：听着呢。
1:11:07 Q:No.

Q:OK, go ahead - what? 		问：没有。

问：好了，继续吧——什么？
1:11:11 Q:If you have learnt, why isn't it true? 问：如果你已经明白了，那为什么不是真的呢？
1:11:16 Q:It is true what you were yesterday - the fact is there. But they're coming back at you saying, 'Look, you did this to me yesterday.' That 'you' is a spirit now, it's... that 'you' isn't... 问：你昨天什么样，那是真的——事实就摆在那儿。 但他们回来找你，说： “看，你昨天对我如此这般。” 那个“你”现在是一个幽灵了，它是……那个“你”不是
1:11:27 K:Yes, sir, but you've taken my money away yesterday. 克：是的，先生，但你昨天把我的钱拿走了。
1:11:34 Q:OK, they can punish you, they can do despicable things. 问：那好，他们能惩罚你，他们能做卑鄙的事情。
1:11:37 K:No, wait. What we are saying is: fear - not they can do this or that - fear. Fear exists if I haven't finished with yesterday. And I cannot finish with yesterday as long as I'm comparing everything with it… with the present to yesterday. That's all. If I have finished with yesterday, all right, sir, what can you do? I've done it, I've done it. But as long as I have comparative evaluation there will be always fear. 克：不，等一下。我们说的是： 恐惧——不是他们能做这个或那个——恐惧。 如果我没有了结昨天，恐惧就会存在。 而我无法了结昨天， 只要我把任何事情跟它比较 今天与昨天比较。就是这样。 如果我没有了结昨天，那好，先生，我们能做什么呢？ 我已经了结了，我这么做了。 但只要我有比较性的评价， 就总是会存在恐惧。
1:12:27 Q:But what she was saying...

K:Ah! 		问：但她说的是……

克：啊！
1:12:29 Q:No, wait. What you were saying when you were looking at... Like you can forget... The action was done. It was done. And we're trying to be secure, we're trying to say, if we forget about... if we don't gossip today no one will come back tomorrow and say that we didn't gossip ten years ago, when we were gossiping. There's no security in that. You can't say that somebody isn't going to come and punish you, or whatever you want, for... we don't know. They could come back, the neighbour could come back. 问：不，等一下。你说过当你看 就像你能忘记 行为已经做出，它发生了。 而我们努力想得到安全，我们想说，如果我们忘记 如果我们今天不说闲话，明天就不会有人来找， 并且说，我们十年前就不说闲话了，那时候我们说闲话。 这里边没有安全感。 你不能说，没人来找你、惩罚你， 或无论你想怎样，因为……我们不知道。 他们可能会找来，邻居可能会找来。
1:13:05 Q:You want security. You have learned nothing. You want some contracts and guarantees. 问：你想要安全。你什么也没有明白。 你想得到契约和担保。
1:13:09 Q:No, I'm saying what you're saying. I'm saying we're worried about it - we don't know. The fact is we don't know if someone will come back because we've gossiped before. 问：不，我说的是你要说的意思。 我说我们担心它——我们不知道。 事实是我们不知道 会不会有人因为我们过去说过闲话所以会找来。
1:13:20 Q:But it doesn't matter, if you have... 问：但那无关紧要，如果你
1:13:23 Q:That's right, it doesn't matter. 问：对，那无关紧要。
1:13:26 Q:Wonderful. [Inaudible] 问：好极了。【听不清】
1:13:46 K:That is, sir, to die to yesterday each day, then there's no comparison and therefore no fear. Right? 克：也就是，先生， 每天让昨天死掉， 于是就没有比较了 因而也就没有恐惧了。 对吗？
1:14:11 Q:And therefore love? 问：因而就有了爱？
1:14:13 K:We'll come... Wait, sir, not 'therefore.' So, fear. We are discussing, we're trying to understand if it is... whether the mind can be completely rid of fear - not 'rid' - understand fear and once and for all never be afraid. Dying each day to every day - right? - so that there is no comparison. 克：我们会……等一下，先生，不是“因而”。 恐惧。我们在讨论、我们在试着理解它是不是 头脑能不能完全去除恐惧 ——不是“去掉”——理解恐惧， 并且一劳永逸地不再恐惧。 每天都死去——对吗？—— 那样就没有了比较。
1:15:12 Q:You once said that if you were in the process of a terminal - you know, dying - you will be watching to see whether the hidden fears arose. 问：你曾经说过，如果你处于生命终结的过程中 ——你知道，弥留之际——你就能观察，看看 隐藏的恐惧有没有浮现出来。
1:15:24 K:We are doing this now - wait, sir. When there is no comparison at all - at all, except in technical things, not psychological things - where is fear then? So we go back to the word, to the verb 'to be.' The verb 'to be' has conditioned us so deeply - idea of achieving, becoming, reaching. Right? So, with that verb goes also comparative evaluation. I was yesterday unhappy, I am happy today, I hope to God I'll be happy tomorrow. And tomorrow is so uncertain, therefore I'm afraid. So I'm asking myself whether the mind can observe without comparison - myself with another, myself with - you know, comparison. You try it, do it, and you'll see that one can live completely that way. And therefore much more alive, more efficient, more direct, more energy. 克：我们现在就是在做这个——等一下，先生。 当完全没有了比较 ——完全没有，除了在技术方面，在心理方面完全没有—— 那么恐惧在哪儿呢？ 所以我们回到了那个词，回到那个动词“成为”。 “成为”那个动词对我们的制约 是如此之深 ——成就什么、变成什么、达到什么的想法。 对吗？ 所以伴随那个动词而来的还有比较性的评价。 我昨天不高兴，我今天高兴， 我寄希望于上帝让我明天能快乐。 而明天是如此不确定，所以我担心。 所以我问自己头脑能不能不比较地观察 ——自己与别人，自己与——你知道，比较。 你试试，去做， 你会看到一个人完全能那样生活。 从而更有活力、更高效、更直接、更有能量。
1:17:44 Q:Sir, may I cite a personal experience here on this point? I have tried it, and I find that the stumbling block is technological work, because there seems to come a conflict between non-comparison, non-bringing-up of yesterday, just awareness of now - in a trite term - and having to work in a symbolic sort of job. It seems that I can't do them together - I either have to just be inefficient in work or I have to live a kind of schizoid existence - one now, one now. 问：先生，在这个问题上我能引用一点个人经验吗？ 我试过，并发现 绊倒人的障碍就是技术工作， 因为好像在不比较、 不提起昨天、 只觉察现在——借用一个被滥用的词—— 和必须进行符号类的工作之间，会产生一种冲突。 我好像不能同时做到 ——我要么就得工作没有效率， 要么我就得过一种精神分裂的生活—— 一会儿这样，一会儿那样。
1:18:25 K:No, sir, we said this. We go back to the same problem. We said the mind that has no fear can work in the technological field efficiently because it's an intelligent mind. No? Now - please, go on, sirs - now, how deeply is this comparison rooted? As we come back to the same problem. What, sir? 克：不，先生，我们说过这个问题了。我们回到了同一个问题上。 我们说过没有恐惧的头脑 能在技术领域高效地工作， 因为它是一个智慧的头脑。 不是吗？ 那么——请继续下去，先生们—— 那么，这种比较扎根有多么深呢？ 既然我们再回过来看这个问题， 你怎么说，先生？
1:19:10 Q:Something in me tells me to survive. 问：我内在有个东西告诉我要活下来。
1:19:13 K:Is survival matter of comparison? 克：活下来是个比较的事情吗？
1:19:16 Q:I think so. I think they are related. I think if I don't have this command to survive, I have no fear. 问：我是这么认为的。我认为它们是相关的。 我认为，如果没有这个活下去的命令，我就没有恐惧。
1:19:25 K:Is survival, sir - is survival a matter of comparison? 克：先生，活下去是个比较的事情？
1:19:28 Q:I think the mind thinks that way. 问：我认为头脑是这样想的。
1:19:31 K:Please just look at it. I survive because I compare? 克：请好好来看看这一点。我活下去是因为我比较吗？
1:19:37 Q:I think I compare because I need to, to survive. It goes with to survive. 问：我认为我比较是因为我需要活下去。 它伴随着活下去的愿望而存在。
1:19:47 K:To survive one must compare? 克：要活下去，人就必须比较吗？
1:19:50 Q:But my mind doesn't think in the physical world, technical world... [inaudible] 问：但我的头脑不认为在物理世界、 技术世界……【听不清】
1:19:56 K:Ah, that's a different thing. 克：啊，那是不同的事情。
1:19:57 Q:OK, but on top of that I've created an image of myself, my ego, whatever, and I take the same processes that worked out here and I make them work up here, and I say, I have to protect this just like I do my body, and therefore I compare, make images, and so forth. 问：好，但我在那上面建立了自己的形象，我的自我，无论叫什么， 我采用了跟在那里起作用的相同的步骤， 并且让它们在这儿也起作用，于是我说， 我必须保护这个，就像保护我的身体， 所以，我比较，建立形象，等等。
1:20:09 K:Therefore you're living in everlasting fear. 克：那么你就会生活在无尽的恐惧中。
1:20:12 Q:That's right, but they seem to be piled on top... 问：对，但它们好像堆积在上面
1:20:14 K:Obviously, sir, obviously. The same mechanism is carried over. 克：显然，先生，显然。同样的机制被照搬过来。
1:20:17 Q:Right. 问：对。
1:20:26 K:Is survival, I mean, comparison necessary to survive? Or because we have compared, and thinking that it is necessary to survive, using comparison as survival has brought about danger of non-survival. America is stronger than Russia, India is stronger than some other beastly little country, and so on - divide, divide, divide, which is destroying us. The very demand for survival through comparison - I'm stronger than you - is destroying us. Therefore it is not giving us survival. No, no. It's not helping us to survive. 克：我的意思是，比较对生存来说是必需的吗？ 或者因为我们比较过， 然后认为它对生存是必需的， 把比较作为生存的手段， 而这带来了生存不下去的危险。 美国比俄罗斯强大， 印度比一些弱小国家强大，等等 ——划分，划分，划分，正在摧毁我们。 正是通过比较谋求生存的需要 ——我比你强大——在摧毁我们。 所以，它并不能让我们活下去。 不，不能。 对我们的生存没有帮助。
1:21:36 Q:I think he's talking about success, as compared with survival. 问：我认为他探讨的是成功，相对于生存来说。
1:21:40 K:Ah, success - that's another one of those awful words. 克：啊，成功——这是那些可怕的词语当中的另外一个。
1:21:47 Q:I think I would have no fear at all if something didn't tell me to survive. 问：我认为，如果什么东西不告诉我要活下去， 我就完全不会有任何恐惧。
1:21:53 K:You mean, survival you are equating with success, are you, sir? 克：你的意思是，生存等同于成功，是吗，先生？
1:21:58 Q:No, success is a separate issue for me, but something says survive, drive - something within. 问：不，成功对我来说是一个单独的问题， 而有个东西说活下去，推动——某个内在的东西。
1:22:06 K:What do you mean survive? You are surviving. 克：你说的生存是什么意思呢？你活着呢。
1:22:08 Q:Yes. And that's the origin of my fear. If I were not afraid to die, I would have no other fears at all. 问：是的。而那就是我恐惧的起源。 如果我不怕死，我就根本不会有别的恐惧。
1:22:16 K:Wait, sir, look - afraid to die.

Q:Yes. 		克：等一下，先生，你看——害怕会死掉。

问：是的。
1:22:19 K:What does that mean? You are living. Tomorrow something may happen and you will die. Not you, I mean, of course. Therefore you are afraid, which means compare. Sir, it's so… 克：那意味着什么呢？你活着。 明天可能会发生什么事情，然后你会死掉。 当然，我说的不是你。 所以，你害怕， 那意味着比较。先生，它就是那么
1:22:37 Q:Yes. 问：是的。
1:22:40 K:So can the mind observe without comparison? Sir, do it and you'll see it. Which means no hero, no principle, no formula, no ideal. You follow, sir? No tomorrow. Try it, you'll see. Do it, you'll see what extraordinary thing, it happens - no factor of comparison. Therefore if there is no comparison, what is evil and good? Oh, mustn't enter into that, that's too difficult. You follow, sir? What is virtue? We only know virtue through comparison. Right? If the mind is free of comparison altogether, therefore fear, what is virtue? Ah! 克：那么，头脑能够不作比较地观察吗？ 先生，去这么做，然后你就会看到。 那意味着没有什么英雄， 没有原则， 没有模式，没有理想。 你明白吗，先生？ 没有明天。 试一试，你就会看到。 去做，你就会看到有什么非凡的事情发生 ——没有比较的因素。 所以，如果没有比较， 那么什么是善恶呢？ 噢，不要探讨那个，那太难了。 你明白吗，先生？什么是美德？ 我们只有通过比较才知道美德。 对吗？ 如果头脑完全从比较，也就是从恐惧中解放出来， 那么什么是美德呢？ 啊！
1:24:30 Q:I have a question and I'm not sure how to ask it clearly. I'm wondering if one can innocently approach a technical problem, that is if one may have a clear mind without comparison. 问：我有一个问题，而我不确定怎么才能把它说清楚。 我想知道一个人能不能头脑清白地着手解决一个技术问题， 也就是能不能拥有一个没有比较的清晰的头脑。
1:24:48 K:Then you are learning about the technical thing each day that you're doing it. 克：然后当你每天都这么做， 你就在学习技术方面的东西了。
1:24:51 Q:Yes, but now let's say, here's a mushroom, and I'll either eat it or I won't eat it. Now I have to compare. 问：是的，但现在我们假设，这儿有一个蘑菇， 我要么吃了它要么不吃。 那么我就必须比较。
1:25:01 K:Sir, we said that. Of course, otherwise you'll be killed. 克：先生，我们是这么说的。当然要比较，否则你会被毒死。
1:25:04 Q:Right, right. So at the technical level I can...

K:We said that. Absolutely, I must compare, otherwise I'll be... 		问：对，对。 所以，在技术层面我能……

克：我们这么说过。 没错，我必须比较，否则我就会
1:25:14 Q:You have to know a mile is bigger than a yard. 问：你得知道一英里比一码长。
1:25:16 K:No, no, this is very interesting. If there were virtue at all, in the ordinary accepted sense of that word, when there is no fear and therefore no comparison, or rather, when there is no comparison, therefore no fear. 克：不，不，这非常有趣。 如果美德真的存在， 在这个词所公认的意义上， 那么，当没有恐惧的时候，就没有比较， 或者说，当没有比较的时候，就没有恐惧。
1:25:43 Q:No good or bad at all.

K:No, don't… No, don't... There is obviously good. I mean, you see, the moment you... We'll meet again Sunday… next Saturday, and thrash this out. No, we mustn't leave it. We must go into this, whether fear, comparison, so deeply rooted, is it... To expose it completely and be free of it. Otherwise fear must exist. Does that exposure take place through dreams, with all the complications of dreams, and the analysis of dreams - though the analysis may take place while you're dreaming. All that implies gradualness and therefore time, and therefore fear, not achieving. Yes, sir! Have you got it? So, is understanding a matter of time? Or seeing the truth or the falseness of fear, comparison, seeing it, the truth of it, the understanding of it, is it a matter of time? If I understand it, I've understood the whole structure of the unconscious. 		问：根本没有好和坏。

克：不，不要……不，不要 显然有“好”存在。我的意思是，你看，一旦你 我们礼拜天再见……下礼拜六再见，然后把这个问题解决掉。 不，我们不能留下这个问题不管。 我们必须深入研究这个问题，扎根如此之深的 恐惧、比较，是不是 把它完全暴露出来并从中解脱出来。 否则恐惧必然会存在。 那种暴露是借助梦 以及梦的全部复杂性， 还有对梦的分析发生的吗？ ——尽管分析可能在你做梦的时候发生。 那一切都意味着渐进，因而意味着时间， 所以会有对无法达成的恐惧。 是的，先生！你明白了吗？ 所以，了解是一个时间问题吗？ 或者看到恐惧、比较的 正确或错误， 看到它、它的真相， 对它的理解，是一个时间问题吗？ 如果我理解了它， 我就理解了潜意识的整个结构。
1:28:19 Oh, we'd better stop. Right? Sorry. 噢，我们最好就此打住。好吗？抱歉。