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ML70DSG7 - 什么是秩序？
第七次小组讨论
美国，马里布
1970年3月28日



0:43 K:Shall we go on where we left off the other weekend? We were talking about, or rather, talking over together about fear, how it arises. Need I repeat all that or should we skip all that? 克：我们从上周末停止的地方继续，好吗？ 我们上次谈到了， 或者说，一起讨论了 恐惧的问题， 它是怎样产生的。 需要我全部重复一遍吗，还是我们跳过所有那些内容呢？
1:19 Q:Sir, could we hear it as a summary? [Laughter] 问：先生，我们可以听一下简要回顾吗？【笑声】
1:32 K:We said, if I remember rightly, but I can't repeat exactly what was said, that fear is not an abstraction but exists in relationship to something. That relationship is between two fixed entities and therefore there is a comparative evaluation in relationship. As long as there is a comparison taking place in the mind there must be fear. Right? That's what we said. And whether the mind which is so used to comparing, whether it can abandon that whole process of measurement - not only what it will be, what it has been, what is. That's what - sorry, I'm summing it up probably much too briefly but there it is. I'm sorry if you've come... Because we said too, that a mind that is crippled with fear cannot possibly have order, order within itself. It must always breed disorder, within and without, both psychosomatically as well as outwardly. This is clear again. Need we... We went into that. And order, we said, is not - when we say 'we said' that is in a dialogue together it arose naturally and easily - that order is not conformity to a pattern but rather the understanding of disorder. And the understanding of the disorder naturally brings about order. Understanding is not intellectual but a total comprehension of the structure and the nature of fear, both on the surface and in the deep-rooted recesses of one's mind. That's what we said. So we can bring about order only with the understanding of disorder. When the mind perceives what is disorder then out of that comes order. Can we discuss a little bit of that and go on to something further? Can we discuss that? I mean, we are continuing what we were talking about the other day. What do we mean by disorder? How do you look at it? What do we mean by disorder? Contradiction out of which arises conflict, contradiction between the various fragments which make up the 'me,' the 'I,' the ego, the contradictory and opposing desires - the good and the bad, 'what should be' and 'what is.' This dualistic existence is the source of disorder, with all its innumerable contradictions and oppositions, resistance. Does this convey anything or nothing at all? Wouldn't you say disorder must exist as long as there is conflict, struggle, resistance, conformity, imitation? Which all breed disorder. Right? It seems so... And whether the mind can ever be free, not what to be or not to be, but free from disorder which means conflict. I don't know what you... Let's talk it over together and then… We have accepted conflict as a way of life, both inwardly and outwardly, psychologically, socially, and in every way. The devil and - you know, all the rest of the division that goes on within us - the division between the conscious and the unconscious, this nationalistic division, racial, class, religious separation, division of ideas, ideals, principles, you know. 克：我们说过——如果我没记错的话， 但我不能完全重复之前所讲的—— 恐惧不是一个抽象的概念， 而是存在于与某个事物的关系中。 那是两个固定的实体之间的关系， 因而在两者的关系中存在一种比较性的评价。 只要头脑中有比较发生， 就肯定存在恐惧。 对吗？这就是我们说过的内容。 还有，如此习惯于比较的头脑 能否放弃那整个衡量的过程 ——不仅包括它将怎样，它已经怎样，现在怎样。 那就是—— 抱歉，我概括得可能太简略了，但就这样吧。 我很遗憾，如果你来 因为我们也说过， 一个被恐惧所残害的头脑 不可能拥有秩序， 自身内在的秩序。 它必定总是滋生混乱，从里到外， 身心方面如此，外在也是一样。 这一点也很清楚。我们是不是需要……我们探讨过这些了。 至于秩序，我们说过，它不是—— ——我们说“我们说过”，意思是我们在一起对话的过程中， 它自然地、轻松地浮现出来 ——秩序不是对某种模式的遵从， 而是对失序的了解。 对失序的了解自然就会带来秩序。 了解不是智力层面上的， 而是对恐惧的结构和本质的全面把握， 包括从人的意识表层到内心最深处的恐惧。 这就是我们说过的内容。 所以，我们只有通过对失序的了解 才能带来秩序。 当头脑理解了什么是失序， 然后秩序就会从中产生。 我们能不能先讨论一下这点，然后接着探讨某些更为深入的问题？ 我们可以讨论这个吗？ 我的意思是，我们在继续我们前几天的讨论。 我们说的“失序”指的是什么？ 你怎样看待失序？ 我们说的失序指的是什么？ 矛盾， 滋生冲突的矛盾， 组成“自我”的 各个碎片之间的矛盾， 那些互相矛盾的、对立的欲望 ——好的和坏的， “应该怎样”而“实际怎样”。 这种二元性的存在 是失序的根源， 是无数矛盾、 对立和抗拒的根源。 这传达了什么东西吗？还是根本什么也没传达？ 难道你不会说只要存在冲突、 斗争、抵抗、 遵从和模仿， 失序就必然会存在？ 所有这些都会产生失序，对吗？这点看起来是如此 而究竟头脑能否自由， 不是要成为什么或不成为什么， 而是摆脱意味着冲突的失序。 我不知道你……我们来一起探讨，然后 我们都接受了冲突是一种生活方式， 从内在到外在， 在心理上，在社会上，在任何一个方面都接受了这一点。 魔鬼和——你知道， 以及在我们中间进行的其他所有的划分—— 意识和无意识之间的划分， 国家间的划分， 种族的、阶级的、宗教的分割， 观念、理想、原则之间的分裂，你知道的。
9:22 Q:If one is free of inner conflict, it seems to me one comes in conflict with society as it is. 问：如果一个人摆脱了内在的冲突， 在我看来他就会与现存的社会发生冲突。
9:30 K:I wonder. The question is, Dr Weininger is asking, if you may be free from inward disorder and have some kind of free order - if we can use it - would you not be in conflict with society still? Would you? 克：我怀疑这点。 威宁格博士问的问题是， 如果你摆脱了内在的失序， 并且获得了某种自由的秩序 ——如果我们可以用这个词的话—— 你会不会仍然与社会发生冲突？ 会吗？
10:07 Q:Well, wouldn't it be that you'd still have comparison, conflict to deal with in the world at large, but if you had an inner order you'd be more at peace? You wouldn't really be caught up in the conflict, you'd deal with it without being a part of it, it would seem. 问：那么，总地来说，你仍然要处理 世间的比较和冲突， 但如果你拥有内在的秩序，你会更平和，难道不是这样吗？ 你不会真地被困在冲突中， 你会处理冲突而不是作为冲突的一部分，好像是这样。
10:28 K:Sir, unless we experiment and test it, mere speculative thinking has very little importance. I mean, why does this division exist, first, which invariably, apparently, creates conflict? The nationalistic division, the racial division - division, separation. And one can see this separation exists because one wants security - my country, my God, my belief, my principle, my ideal and yours, and so on, so on - in those we take shelter, whether it is a neurotic belief or a rational belief are the same - in that we take shelter. And that very shelter destroys us. If you take shelter in nationalism, that - you know all the rest, I don't have to explain all this, it's too obvious. Right? So can the mind be free of this division and therefore order? Division is disorder. The moment one says one is a Hindu, or a German, or communist, it's separation, therefore disorder. And is there such division in us? And if there is that division, which is obvious one has, what is one to do? Because, sir, look, one can everlastingly bring about order, clean the room everlastingly, the house, you know, back and forth, back and forth, put the dirt under the carpet or outside the window, but keep on for the next forty years bringing about order. By then one is dead, or incapable, or one is gaga. But yet there must be certain order, like cleanliness, you know, all the rest - order, which brings about its own discipline. Right? I mean, this is... And what is the point of such order? You understand what I'm... What's the point of having first-class order within oneself? Not imposed, not through determination to have order, not through will, which is a form of resistance, not through condemnation or justification - having intelligently, sanely, rationally brought about order, which is absolutely essential otherwise I can't see clearly. The mind is blurred, how can it observe? If the mind thinks in terms of Hinduism, or Buddhism, or whatever it is, how can it observe, how can it look, how can it think straight? So obviously order is absolute, imperative necessity - which apparently the world is now denying. That revolt is merely another form of reaction which will bring about its own conformity - long hair, short hair, or no hair, or whatever it is. Now, if one has such order - and that is absolutely necessary - then what? Will the mind stop seeking? Please, sir, do let's go on with this, don't just... Because the very search for truth, God or transcendental something, the very search is a projection of one's own desire - no? - and a contradiction to 'what is.' Seeking is to find. To seek is to find. No? No, sir? And what you find, how will you know that it is the truth? What you find must be in the pattern of the known, therefore it is nothing new, nothing fresh, nothing, you know, living, but it's only a projection of the past. I don't know if you see all this. So having brought about order, if you have done it - I mean, do it, sirs, and you'll see the fun of it - if you have done it and you proceed, having established order, therefore a living quality in it, not a determined quality within a certain pattern, a designed order, therefore breakable. I don't know if you're following all this. And then the mind is no longer seeking, saying, 'I must find,' or, 'I must give significance to order' - right? - which again becomes an intellectual feat, trick. Before, we gave meaning to life because we were seeking God, truth. And if we understand the whole nature of seeking and do not seek - which doesn't mean go to sleep - then what is the meaning of order? All right, I have order, then what? I don't know if you're following all this. There are thousands of people all over the world who say nationalism is absurd, have wiped it away. Believing in some peculiar God of my own or your own is too absurd and also wiped away. And they have no racial prejudices, and all that. But they still have fear deep down, fear - fear of death, fear of destruction - fear. And even if one goes beyond it - and one can and one must - then what? I don't know if you're following all this. Is order the whole substance of life? Order in which there is no jealousy, no hate, kindliness, gentleness, consideration, politeness, you know, tenderness, understanding of pleasure and pain and therefore the meaning of love in which there is... Pleasure is not love, desire is not love. And the mind stops seeking because it has understood the trick it has played upon itself when it is seeking. All religions have maintained: seek, search out, inquire, experience, realise. And we are saying completely… something contradictory to all that. Because when there is a seeking there is always a seeker, obviously. No? So there is a duality which breeds conflict. So, one realises all this, not intellectually but actually in daily life, within oneself, a serious realisation of order, and the imperative necessity of it. That has come about and one is intelligent, sensitive, aware - and then what? Are you meeting my... I know how to read and write - then what? I don't hate my neighbour, I don't hate anybody, I am kind, gentle, I am polite - you know, ordinary, decent, cultural existence, plus orderliness which I have brought about because I have understood division. Division being between the observer and the observed - that is the very nature of division. As long as there is an observer, a censor, a thinker, apart, there must be division therefore there must be conflict. I've understood and I've seen the truth of it, therefore no longer caught in it. Then is that all? 克：先生，除非我们实验并检验它， 否则仅仅做揣测性的思考并没有多少意义。 我的意思是， 首先，为什么会存在这种 显然也必然会制造冲突的划分？ 国家间的划分，种族的划分 ——划分、分割。 并且你能看到这种分离是存在的， 因为人们想得到安全 ——我的国家、我的上帝、我的信仰、我的原则、 我的理想和你的这些东西，等等，等等 ——我们从那些当中寻求庇护， 不论是神经质的信仰还是理性的信仰，都是一样的 ——我们想从中得到庇护。 但正是这种庇护摧毁了我们。 如果你从国家主义中得到庇护，那么——你知道剩下的所有事情， 我不必解释所有这些，那太明显了。 不是吗？ 那么，头脑能否摆脱这种划分， 进而迎来秩序？ 划分就是失序。 一旦一个人说他是印度人 或德国人，或共产主义者， 那就是分裂，从而会导致失序。 那么，我们内在是否存在这种划分？ 而如果存在这种划分， 很显然人有这种分别，那么他该怎么办？ 因为，先生，你瞧， 一个人可以不停地保持有序， 不停地清洁房间，还有房子，你知道， 前前后后、前前后后地打扫， 将脏东西藏到地毯下或者扔出窗外， 在未来的四十年中一直保有秩序。 直到他死了、不能动了或糊涂了的时候。 然而也确实要有一定的秩序， 比如整洁，你知道，诸如此类—— 能带来它自身纪律的秩序。 不是吗？我是说，这是 而这种秩序的意义何在？ 你知道我在 一个人内在拥有最高秩序的意义是什么？ 不是通过强迫或决心而拥有的秩序， 不是通过意志力，那是一种形式的抗拒， 也不是通过谴责或辩护 ——而是智慧地、健全地、 理性地带来秩序， 是绝对必要的， 否则，我就无法看清。 头脑是糊涂的，它又怎能观察？ 如果头脑按照印度教的 或者佛教的，或者无论什么方式思考， 它怎么能够观察，怎么能够看，它怎么能够正直地思考呢？ 所以秩序显然是绝对必要的 ——而世界显然正在否定这点。 反抗只是反应的另外一种形式， 它将导致自己对模式的遵从 ——长头发，短头发，或剃发，或者无论什么方式。 那么，如果一个人拥有了这样的秩序——而这是绝对必要的—— 然后会怎样呢？ 头脑将停止寻求吗？ 先生，请让我们继续探讨，不要仅仅 正是因为这种对真理、上帝或某种超验之物的追寻， 这种追寻正是一个人自身愿望的投射 ——不是吗？—— 并且与“现状”相矛盾。 寻求就是去发现。 去寻求就是要去发现。 不是吗？ 不是吗，先生？ 而你发现的东西， 你怎么知道它是真理呢？ 你所发现的必然处在已知的模式中， 所以，其中没有新东西，没有新鲜的、有生命的东西，你知道， 它只是一种对过去的投射。 我不知道你们是否完全看清了这些。 所以，如果已经带来了秩序， 如果你已经做到了——我的意思是去做，先生们， 你就会看到其中的美妙—— 如果你做到了，并且进一步 创建了秩序， 其中就会有一种鲜活的品质， 而不是一种在特定的模式内已经确定了的品质， 不是一种设计好的、从而可以打破的秩序。 我不知道你们是否完全理解了这点。 接下来，头脑不再寻求， 说，“我必须发现，” 或者，“我必须赋予秩序意义” ——对吗？—— 这些再次成为智力的表演、诡计。 之前，我们赋予生活意义， 因为我们寻求上帝、真理。 而如果我们完全了解了寻求的本质，不再寻求 ——那并不意味着沉睡—— 那么，秩序的意义是什么？ 好，我拥有了秩序，然后会怎样？ 我不知道你们是否完全理解了这些。 全世界成千上万的人 说国家主义是荒唐的，消除了这种观念。 信仰你的或我的特定的上帝太荒唐了， 这些也一并清除掉。 他们也没有种族偏见，以及诸如此类的一切。 但他们仍然心怀恐惧，有深深潜藏的恐惧 ——害怕死亡，害怕毁灭——害怕。 即使一个人超越了它 ——而人是能够而且必须超越它的—— 然后怎样？ 我不知道你们是否理解了所有这些。 秩序是生命的全部实质吗？ 秩序中没有嫉妒、没有恨， 它包含着友善、柔和、 关怀、礼貌， 你知道的，亲切， 对欢乐和痛苦的了解， 进而懂得爱的内涵， 其中有 欢愉不是爱，欲望不是爱。 头脑停止寻求，因为它懂得了 当它寻求的时候对自身玩的把戏。 所有的宗教都坚持： 要去寻找、追求、询问、 经历、实现。 而我们说的是与这一切完全相反的东西。 因为，当存在寻求的时候 就总是存在一个观察者， 显然如此， 不是吗？ 所以存在一种会产生冲突的二元性。 所以，一个人认识到了这一切， 不是理智上而是实际地在日常生活中，在内心 有了一种对秩序的认真的领悟， 认识到了其绝对的必要性。 认识到所有这些，并且这个人是智慧的、 敏感的、觉醒的——然后会发生什么？ 你们有没有理解我的……？ 我知道怎样读和写——然后会怎样？ 我不恨我的邻居，我不恨任何人， 我友善、温和，我礼貌周全 ——你知道，我是个平凡、正派、有文化的人， 加上有我自己带来的秩序， 因为我理解了分裂。 那种在观察者和被观察者之间的分裂 ——那正是分裂的本质。 只要存在分离出来的观察者、审查者、思想者， 就肯定存在分裂，因而就会存在冲突。 我理解了并看到了其中的真相， 所以不再被它困住。那么，这就是一切吗？
24:15 Q:The rest is unknown, how would I know? 问：剩下的是未知的，我怎么会知道？
24:17 K:No, madame. If one has come as far as that one inevitably asks this question. No more gurus, all that business finished - following, obedience and authority, except the authority of law - you know, keep to the right side of the road or other side of the road, pay tax, unless you don't want to pay tax, go to prison - but keep law, keep the authority of law, respect - but the authority inwardly in something or for something. So when all that is gone, and one must empty the mind of all disorder, not only outwardly but deep down in one's consciousness, and whether that's possible at all. I'm talking all the time, am I not? Please, sirs, join me, won't you? Out of that arises a very serious question which is: how can the mind, without dividing itself from the unconscious, dividing itself as the observer analysing the deep layers of oneself in which there are all kinds of motives, contradictions, racial prejudices, inherited, all the rest of it, how can all that be examined and thrown out? how can all that be examined and thrown out? Otherwise there'll always be fear because that will breed contradiction. I don't know if you're meeting all this. 克：不，女士。 如果一个人走了那么远，他必然会问这个问题。 不再有上师，所有关于上师的把戏都结束了 ——跟随、服从和权威， 除了法律的权威—— 你知道，走马路正确的一边， 如果走另外一边，就要交罚款， 除非你不想交罚款，那就进监狱 ——就只能遵守法律，保持法律的权威，尊重法律—— 而在某个方面或就某些事情而言的 内在权威都结束了。 所以，当这一切都消失了， 并且人必须清除头脑中所有的失序， 不仅是外部的还有意识深处的失序， 而这究竟有没有可能。 就我一直在讲，不是吗？ 先生们，请加入进来，好吗？ 从这里产生了一个非常严肃的问题，那就是： 头脑怎样才能 不将自己与无意识分离开来， 不将自己分离为观察者， 不分析自己深藏的各个层面， 其中包含着各种动机、矛盾、 种族偏见、遗传以及诸如此类的一切， 所有这些怎样才能得到审视并抛弃？ 所有这些怎样才能得到审视并抛弃？ 否则将总是会有恐惧， 因为那会滋生矛盾。 我不知道你们是否理解了这一切。
26:46 Q:Sir, won't the understanding of all these other things that you talked about, the complete understanding, do away with that fear? The understanding itself. 问：先生，难道不是对所有这些事情的了解， 就是你刚谈到的完全的了解， 排除了恐惧吗？就是那种了解本身。
27:00 K:How do you understand something, sir? What do you mean by that word 'understand'? Is it an intellectual, verbal understanding? Is it an emotional apprehension, emotional feeling, 'Yes, I've got it, I've understood'? Or is it a state of mind, a quality of mind that observes without any distortion? Which means no opinion, no judgement, no condemnation, no justification. 克：你怎样了解某个事情，先生？ 你说的“了解”这个词，指的是什么？ 它是智力上、文字上的理解吗？ 或者是一种感受上的领会、 情绪化的感觉，“是的，我领会了，我理解了”？ 或者，它是头脑的一种状态， 头脑的一种 毫无扭曲地进行观察的品质？ 那意味着没有观点、没有评判、 没有谴责、没有辩护。
28:18 Q:What's that understanding, that final understanding? 问：那种了解，那个最终的了解是什么？
28:21 K:Sir, you try. How extraordinarily shocked the mind has to be to have no opinion at all. 克：先生，试试看。 如果头脑没有任何观点， 它会感到多么震撼！
28:35 Q:You ask about the subconscious, sir. How can one summon the accumulation of a lifetime of subconscious in order to look at it? Supposing one were capable of looking without opinion, without an observer. You speak about seeing all the recesses of the subconscious. How can one summon in an instant a lifetime of accumulation which is what it has taken to make the subconscious? 问：你问的是潜意识，先生。 人怎么才能汇总毕生积累的潜意识， 以便能够观察它？ 假设一个人能够不带意见、不带观察者地看。 你谈到了看到潜意识的最深处。 一个人怎么能够在一瞬间汇总毕生的积累， 也就是形成潜意识的那些东西呢？
29:02 K:Yes, sir. 克：是的，先生。
29:03 Q:Do you need another forty-two years to... 问：你是否需要再花四十二年去
29:05 K:Sir, then I'm dead by then - I have no time, I'm not... that doesn't interest me.

Q:Sir, do you mean to see it one head at a time or the whole head of heads? 		克：先生，那时我就不在了——我没有时间，我不是 这引不起我的兴趣。

问：先生，你的意思是 一个一个地看还是所有的一起看？
29:15 K:We're going to find out, sir. First of all, why do we accumulate at all? Approach it that way, not...

Q:But we have. 		克：我们正要去弄清楚，先生。 首先，我们究竟为什么要积累？ 用这个方式来着手问题，而不是……

问：但我们已经积累了。
29:29 K:Wait, wait, wait, wait. Un momento, un momento. Wait. We will see... I know we have accumulated - that's obvious. Why do we accumulate? And what is the machinery or the energy that accumulates? Wait, sir, go slow, go slow. Accumulation becomes dependence. I depend on knowledge - go slowly, sir - I depend on the image which I have built. All right.

Q:I don't even know this. 		克：稍等，稍等，稍等。等一会儿，等一会儿。 稍等，我们会看到 我知道我们已经积累了——那是显而易见的。 我们为什么积累？ 又是什么机制或能量在积累？ 等一下，先生，慢慢来，慢慢来。 积累会变成依赖。 我依赖知识 ——慢慢来，先生—— 我依赖我建立的那个形象。 好吧。

问：我甚至不知道这点。
30:17 K:I am doing it, I am doing it now.

Q:I have accumulated for forty years and you say now, sir: how can you look at all the recesses of those forty years? I don't know why I've accumulated, it's there. 		克：我正在了解，我现在正这么做。

问：我已经积累了四十年， 而你现在说，先生： 你怎么才能去看那四十年来深藏的一切？ 我不知道我为什么积累，积累就在那儿。
30:29 K:No, but it is there by... If you don't understand why you are accumulating, the very saying, 'I must understand' - you follow? - 'all that has accumulated,' is a way of... another form of accumulating. I don't know if I'm conveying to you, if I am making myself clear. One has accumulated during these forty, fifty, sixty years, tremendous lot of things, not only in the sixty years but also all the past. Now I say I must look at them, I must observe them, I must understand them. And when I look, I am looking with the eyes of accumulation, with the eyes that are accustomed to accumulate. 克：你是不知道，但它在那儿是通过 如果你不了解你为什么积累， “我必须了解所积累的一切”——你跟上了吗？—— 这种说法本身就是一种方式的 另外一种形式的积累。 我不知道我有没有传达什么信息给你， 我是否表达清楚了。 我在这四十、五十、六十年中， 积累了大量的东西， 不仅是过去的六十年，而且是整个过去。 现在我说，我必须审视它们，我必须观察它们， 我必须了解它们。 而当我看的时候， 我是在用积累的眼光， 用习惯于积累的眼光在看。
31:42 Q:I look at what, sir?

K:At the accumulation. 		问：我看什么，先生？

克：看那些积累。
31:45 Q:I can't see it all. 问：我无法全部看到。
31:48 K:Therefore I want to find a different way, different approach. 克：所以我想找到另一个方式，另外一条途径。
31:54 Q:I don't feel the need strongly enough to see the accumulation. It hurts sometimes when I look at the conflict that it's pushing me through, but then I see maybe what's involved in it, going away from what I thought is right and what is going on, what's the nature of me - to see it means moving away from that, and I don't feel the need to really see the accumulation, whatever it might be. 问：我感到的需求没有强烈到足以看清那些积累。 当我看着贯穿我内心的冲突， 有时会觉得它会让我受伤， 但是随后我看到可能有什么牵涉其中， 离开我认为正确的和正在发生的， 离开”我“的本质所在 ——看到它就意味着远离那些， 于是我感觉不到有真正看清那个积累的必要， 无论它可能是什么。
32:29 K:Sir, you may not see the need of understanding the accumulation. 克：先生，你可能没看到了解那种积累的必要。
32:33 Q:I don't have a feeling. 问：我没有这种感觉。
32:34 K:I know you don't feel - most of us don't. 克：我知道你感觉不到——我们多数人都感觉不到。
32:36 Q:I do a bit, but it's overpowered by not wanting to plunge on. I might get hurt.

K:After all, sir, the whole accumulation is the 'me,' is the ego, the observer, the censor - all that. Now, one asks, he is asking a question, which is: how can I, how can the mind observe all the accumulation, not analytically, bit by bit by bit, that would take - but to observe it completely?

Q:Simultaneously. 		问：我做了一些努力，但被不想投入的想法占领了。 我可能会受到伤害。

克：归根到底，先生， 那整个积累就是“我”， 就是“自我”， 是那个观察者、审查者——所有那些东西。 现在，一个人问，他要问一个问题，就是： 我怎么能够，头脑怎么能够观察积累的全部， 不是分析性地观察， 一点一点地观察，那要花时间 ——而是完整地观察？

问：同时观察。
33:27 K:Wholly, so that there is... it is understood. 克：完整地观察，以致于……它就被理解了。
33:33 Q:But, sir, to me accumulation means a quantitative measurement. But I'm thinking in terms of a qualitative thing, imprinting. I know that my mind has been imprinted with certain ideas, certain thoughts, certain habits, certain patterns, certain ways of life. How does one change that? 问：但是，先生，对我而言，积累意味着量化的测度。 但我在从质的方面考虑这个产生印象的过程。 我知道我的头脑被打上了某些观念的印记， 某些想法、某些习惯、某些模式 以及某些生活方式的印记。 一个人要怎样改变这些？
33:59 K:That's what we're - it's the same. That is the accumulation. 克：我们就是那些东西——那是一回事。那就是积累。
34:03 Q:But I'm speaking not in terms of quantity. 问：我不是从数量方面讲的。
34:06 K:Quality.

Q:Quality. 		克：质量。

问：质量。
34:08 K:Yes, sir, the same thing. Now, wait a minute, that's the point. How is the total nature of accumulation, the quality of it, to change so that it is a totally different quality? Right? What do you say, sirs? 克：是的，先生，那是一回事。现在，等一会儿，这就是重点。 积累整体上的本质是怎样的， 要改变它的品质， 于是它就有了一种全然不同的品质？ 对吗？ 你们怎么认为，先生们？
34:39 Q:Doesn't fear cause the accumulation? 问：难道不是恐惧导致了积累吗？
34:44 K:Fear. Yes, sir, as he points out, we have accumulated. 克：恐惧，是的，先生，就像他所指出的，我们已经积累了。
34:48 Q:Going to the market place makes accumulation. We haven't the time to ask why we've accumulated. 问：到市场上去，就可以进行积累。 我们没有时间问我们为什么积累。
34:54 K:Yes. Wait, sir.

Q:Nor have we the time to speak about quality and factual remembrance. The fact is that accumulation makes this thing, this package, which you call the subconscious. And you say that part of the disorder is the action of the subconscious. How do we see this thing called the subconscious in order that there may be order? This question again: how to see it in less than forty years or forty seconds? 		克：是的。等等，先生。

问：我们也没有时间 谈论品质和实际的记忆。 事实是，那个积累造成了这件事情，这个包袱， 你称之为潜意识。 而你说这部分的失序就是潜意识的行为。 我们怎样才能看到这个被称为潜意识的东西， 以便能够带来秩序？ 还是这个问题： 怎样在少于四十年或四十秒的时间内看到它？
35:29 Q:If you see one thing thoroughly and completely all the way through to the end, could this not be the seeing of the entire accumulation? 问：如果你彻底地、完整地、 从头到尾地看到一件事情， 难道这不就是看到了积累的全部吗？
35:40 K:I don't know, sir, find out. 克：我不知道，先生，去弄清楚。
35:44 Q:Sir, if I am looking at any of this accumulation, the 'I' that is looking is part of that accumulation, is it not, and isn't that the problem even attempting anything like this? No matter where I begin it's always the accumulated which is looking at the accumulation and it's a never-ending... 问：先生，如果我在看这个积累的任何一部分， 在看的这个“我”就是这个积累的一部分，不是吗？ 这难道不就是问题所在吗，即使尝试去做这样的事情也是一样？ 不管我从哪里开始，总是积累的产物 在看着那个积累的结果，而且永远没有尽头
36:06 K:Would you say, sir, why... There are accumulations - right? Why does the mind accumulate? 克：你会不会说，先生，为什么 为什么存在那些积累的东西——对吗？ 为什么头脑要积累？
36:24 Q:Because it's alive, sir. 问：因为它活着，先生。
36:27 K:Does being alive mean accumulation? Does being alive mean more and more and more furniture? Both furniture in the house and furniture - you follow? Why does one accumulate? 克：活着就意味着积累吗？ 活着意味越来越多的家具吗？ 包括房子里的家具和别的“家具”——你明白吗？ 人为什么要积累？
36:45 Q:Out of insecurity?

Q:For security? 		问：因为不安全感？

问：为了安全？
36:47 K:No, I think this... If you'll forgive me, stick to this point - I think we'll come to it. 克：不是，我认为这 如果你们能够原谅我，请紧盯住这点——我想我们会搞明白的。
37:02 Q:Doesn't accumulation begin at the moment we're born? You're a baby, you're lying there, looking at the ceiling, the ceiling could be white, you know that it's white. It clicks up here somewhere, it's a long tape. 问：难道积累不是从 我们出生的时刻就开始了吗？ 你是个婴儿，你躺在那儿， 看着天花板，天花板可能是白色的， 你知道它是白色的。 这个印象就留在了某个地方，它就像一个很长的录像带。
37:22 K:No, madame, ecoutez, I mean, please, listen. Why does the mind accumulate? 克：不是的，女士，请听我说（法语），我的意思是，请听一下。 为什么头脑要积累？
37:34 Q:For protection and security? 问：为了得到保护和安全？
37:37 K:Go into it, sir - why do you accumulate? 克：深入进去，先生——你为什么要积累？
37:41 Q:I don't really know what accumulation is, sir. 问：我并不真正明白积累是什么，先生。
37:46 Q:Collecting all the things which we are 'me' - prejudices, habits, tendencies, opinions, fears. He said: conflict. 问：搜集所有关于我们是“我”的东西 ——偏见、习惯、倾向、 见解、恐惧。他说的是：冲突。
38:02 Q:When we talk about it, is that what we're seeing? 问：当我们讨论的时候，那就是我们要看到的吗？
38:05 Q:What do you mean? 问：你说的是什么意思？
38:06 Q:I don't know, it seems to me that we're dealing with a picture of it and not seeing the thing at all - and that's what I'm doing now. That's what I mean by I don't know what is meant by accumulation. It triggers a few things... 问：我不知道，对我而言我们正在讨论的是它的图像， 而完全没有看到事情本身 ——这就是我正在做的。 这就是我说“我不知道积累意味着什么”的意思。 它引发出几件事情
38:23 K:Sir, why do you accumulate anything? 克：先生，你为什么积累东西？
38:27 Q:I don't know.

K:No, no, no, please, sir, not a question of you don't know why. Why do you accumulate memories, knowledge? 		问：我不知道。

克：不，不，不， 拜托，先生，这不是一个"你不知道为什么"的问题。 你为什么要积累记忆、知识？
38:36 Q:To add to the self. 问：要添加到“自我”里面。
38:39 K:Experiences, furniture - why?

Q:It makes you feel good. 		克：经验，家具——为什么？

问：它使你感觉不错。
38:47 Q:I accumulate experience because of fear. I want to continue the experience so I accumulate. 问：我积累经验是因为恐惧。 我想继续那种体验，所以我积累。
38:55 K:No, sir, look at it, sir. Why do you accumulate? You haven't answered my question. 克：不，先生，看着它，先生。你为什么积累？ 你还没有回答我的问题。
39:02 Q:I think we hope that if we continue to accumulate things we'll be able to escape from this sometimes tawdry existence, that some day we'll reach some point where we've accumulated enough it will be understanding… 问：我认为我们希望：如果我们继续积累东西， 我们就能在某些时候从庸俗的生活中逃离出去， 某一天我们将达到某个点， 当我们积累得足够多的时候，那就会成为领悟。
39:16 K:Or is it that you're frightened of being empty, frightened of having nothing? So I collect, collect, knowledge and - you follow? - the whole encyclopaedia of facts, of emotions, of memories, of pleasures and, you know, knowledge. 克：或者原因是你害怕空虚、 害怕一无所有？ 所以我搜集，搜集知识以及——你理解吗？—— 整个百科全书，关于事实、关于感情、 关于记忆、关于欢乐的 以及，你知道的，知识。
39:52 Q:In a capitalistic society you're taught to accumulate. 问：在资本主义社会你被教导要去积累。
39:56 K:Yes, sir. I'm not talking of capitalist society or communist society - they're all... 克：是的，先生。 我们不是在谈论资本主义社会或者共产主义社会——它们都
40:00 Q:No, but this is the pattern. If you don't accumulate money then you accumulate other possessions, possessions like knowledge. 问：不，但这就是那个模式。如果你不积累金钱， 你就积累其他的财富， 比如知识的财富。
40:08 K:Wait, sir. So why do we accumulate? Is it the fear of not having, not being? So the being is identified with the accumulated things - property, money... 克：等等，先生。那么，我们为什么积累？ 是不是因为对不拥有、不存在的恐惧？ 所以，那种存在就是与积累的东西相认同 ——财产、金钱
40:36 Q:Or the other way around. Perhaps the other way round. 问：或者反过来。可能以相反的方式。
40:40 K:Which is what? 克：那是什么？
40:41 Q:Accumulated things remembered give one a feeling that one is. 问：积累的记忆让人感觉到自己是存在的。
40:45 K:Yes, yes, we can put it that way, or the mind needs the accumulated things in order not to face its own emptiness. Because if I have no knowledge I can't quote to you books, I can't be somebody. 克：是的，是的，我们可以这样讲， 或者，头脑需要那些积累的东西， 以避免面对自身的空虚。 因为，如果我没有知识， 我就不能向你引经据典，我就不能成为某某人。
41:22 Q:We all have visions, some sort of state of mind. 问：我们都有各种愿景，有某种心态。
41:25 K:Follow it, sir: why do you collect? 克：跟上，先生：你为什么搜集？
41:32 Q:Well, I'm talking about... 问：好的，我说的是
41:35 K:Leave property for the moment, shoes, and shirts, and clothes, but inwardly, why do you collect? Memories galore, experiences - and all that you call a rich life. The more experiences you have, the more knowledge, the greater the richness of living. And therefore you have more knowledge than I have, jealousy - you follow? - you are more important, and so on, so on, so on. Sir, why does the mind collect at all? If is it afraid of being empty, nothing, then accumulation becomes imperative. 'I am a Hindu' - that becomes extraordinarily important. 克：暂时放下财产、鞋子、衬衣和衣服， 而从内在来说，你为什么搜集？ 有大量的记忆、经验 ——以及所有你称为丰富生活的东西。 你拥有的经验越多，知识越丰富， 生活就越丰盛。 因而，你比我拥有更多的知识，就有了嫉妒——你理解吗？ ——你更重要，等等，等等，等等。 先生，到底头脑为什么收集？ 是不是因为它害怕空虚、无物， 然后积累就变得势在必行。 “我是印度人” ——变得至关重要。
42:59 Q:Sir, I think you also accumulate because in your relationship to people and with your society, a person that doesn't have a certain cleverness can't relate very well. In other words - I know that sounds bad when it comes out, even as I hear myself - but you accumulate a certain amount of knowledge so that you can deal with confusion. Except that it's part of the confusion then. [Laughter] We know of no other state. 问：先生，我认为你也积累， 因为在你与人们和社会的关系中， 一个不太聪明的人 不会和别人相处得很好。 换句话说——这话说出来的时候， 即使是我自己这么说，我也知道这听起来不太好—— ——但你积累了一定数量的知识， 以便你能够处理困惑。 只可惜这还是困惑的一部分。【笑声】 我们不知道其他的状态。
43:53 K:Sir, have you tried not to accumulate? I know it's the tradition, it's the habit, it is the cultural, social, etc., etc., to accumulate. Have you ever tried not to accumulate, and gone into it and see what happens if you don't accumulate? Would you be an idiot? Would you lose social contact? Would you lose relationship? So, the mind that is frightened accumulates. And that mind says, 'I must see this whole thing in a flash.' Right? This whole content of the unconscious in a flash. I haven't time to examine it, analyse it bit by bit because I'll be dead by the end of forty years. It may take a hundred years whereas some accident will come along, disease, and I'll be finished - there's the end of it. So the mind being frightened of this emptiness pours in, allows itself to be influenced, to be imprinted upon. And the more it is imprinted, the more clever it is, the more profitable, and so on, so on. Now, one sees this very clearly in oneself. And which is important now, which has become the factual? The accumulation or the understanding of the nature of emptiness? If I am accumulating, if the mind is accumulating, then the quality of the mind which is empty cannot be seen. And if the mind says, 'I must understand the emptiness,' it will be a collective emptiness. I don't know... 克：先生，你试过不去积累吗？ 我知道，积累是一种传统，是一种习惯， 积累是文化性的、社会性的，等等。 你可曾尝试过不去积累， 并且深入进去看看如果你不积累到底会发生什么？ 你会成为傻瓜吗？ 你会失去社会联系吗？ 你会失去关系吗？ 所以，受了惊吓的头脑才会去积累。 而那个头脑说， “我必须在一瞬间就看到整个事情。” 对吗？ 整个潜意识的内容，在一瞬间全部看到。 我没有时间去研究它，一点一点地去分析， 因为再过四十年我就不在了。 也许分析要花一百年，而一些意外将会发生， 疾病来临，我就会完蛋——那就结束了。 所以，惧怕空虚的头脑 占据了主导， 允许自己受到影响，被打上烙印。 而烙印越多，它就越聪明， 就越受益，等等，等等。 现在，我们从自身非常清楚地看到了这一点。 那么现在重要的是什么，成为了现实的是什么？ 是那个积累 还是对空虚的本质的理解呢？ 如果我在积累，如果头脑在积累， 那么，空虚的头脑的本质就无法被看到。 而如果头脑说，“我必须理解这种空虚，” 那会是一种积累性的空虚。我不知道
47:08 Q:It's again accumulation.

K:Accumulation. That's another thing it is going to acquire. 		问：那又是积累。

克：是积累。 那是它要获得的另一样东西。
47:14 Q:A dada. 问：一个新玩具。
47:17 K:It's another thing that it's going to collect and use. So, see, sir, what is taking place. So, the mind realises any movement out of fear, conscious or unconscious, is not only a separative process but also accumulative process in order to protect itself. Therefore the mind's concern is then not be bothered by the collective at all. I don't know if you are... Not to be concerned with the collection you have, because what you have is very tawdry anyhow. Even though it is unconscious and all the holy hocus-pocus of the unconscious it is tawdry, it is very trivial. So the mind now is not concerned with the trivial. And to come to that, the mind must have gone through great deal of discipline, great deal of order, an inward quality which isn't disturbed by circumstances, environment, and so on. Then what is the relationship - sorry to go on, you don't mind? - what is the relationship between this understanding, not of what one has collected and why it has been collected, what is the energy that collects it, which is fear, and so on, so on, but can the mind function out of emptiness? I don't know if I am making myself clear. I have functioned, the mind has functioned through collected memories - right? - through accumulation. And one sees such action must sustain fear and contradiction, because you have collected much more than I have, you're much more brilliant, much more active, much more - all the rest of it. I am not, so there's competition, comparison, fear. Right? So I'm asking myself, asking a question, which is, is the mind which doesn't accumulate at all, because it sees the futility of accumulation, the truth of accumulation, or the falseness of accumulation, can such a mind function at all? 克：那是它要搜集和利用的另一样东西。 所以，先生，看看会发生什么。 然后，头脑认识到任何源自恐惧的运动， 有意识的或无意识的， 不仅是个分离的过程， 也是力图保护自身的积累过程。 因此，这时头脑所关心的是 完全不再被积累物所困扰。 我不知道你们是否 不再关心你所拥有的收藏， 因为你所拥有的不管怎样都是庸俗的。 即使它是无意识的， 而无意识玩的所有神圣的把戏 都是庸俗的，非常琐碎的。 所以，现在头脑不再关心那些琐碎的东西。 要达到这一点，头脑就必须 拥有大量的纪律、大量的秩序， 一种不被周围的事物、 环境等等干扰的内在品质。 接下来，这其中的关系是 ——抱歉，往下继续了，你们不在意吧？—— 这种理解 之间的关系是什么， 不是理解一个人积累了什么，和为什么搜集了那些东西， 是什么能量收集了它， 诸如恐惧，等等，等等， 但是，头脑能够从虚空之中进行运转吗？ 我不确定我是否表达清楚了。 我运转， 头脑通过收集的记忆来运转 ——不是吗？——通过积累运转。 而我们看到，这样的行动 必然会延续恐惧和矛盾， 因为你收集了比我更多的东西， 你更杰出、更活跃、 更加——诸如此类。 而我没有，所有就存在竞争、比较、恐惧。 对吗？ 所以，我要问自己， 问自己一个问题，那就是： 不再进行任何积累的头脑， 因为它看到了积累的徒劳无益， 积累的真相， 或积累的谬误， 这样的头脑究竟能否运转呢？
51:39 Q:I see that I function far more intelligently. 问：我认为我能更有智慧地运转。
51:42 K:I don't know, sir. Go into it, go into it. Don't say anything, find out. Find out why you accumulate. Now, isn't that order? A mind freed from every form of inward accumulation. And therefore it'll affect the outer. Can such a mind function in this world, earn a livelihood - follow it all, sir - go to the office? 克：我不知道，先生。深入进去，深入进去。 不要说什么，去弄清楚。 弄清楚你为什么积累。 而这难道不就是秩序吗？ 头脑摆脱了各种形式的内在的积累。 并且，它将因此影响外在。 这样的一个头脑能够在这个世界运转、 谋生——跟上，先生—— 到办公室工作吗？
53:25 Q:What replaces this accumulation? What is there instead? 问：是什么代替了那个积累？ 有什么样的替代物？
53:35 K:What is there instead if there is no accumulation? The open skies. 克：如果积累不存在了，会有什么替代物？ 广阔的天空。
53:46 Q:I understand, but... 问：我理解，但
53:49 K:No, madame, this is - you know what we are talking about? - this is real meditation. To empty... the mind emptying itself of everything that it has accumulated. Try it. Do it and you'll see what is involved in it. All your images, of the husband, the wife, the society, the image of utopia - you follow? 克：不，女士，这是 ——你知道我们正在谈论什么吗？—— 这就是真正的冥想。 清空 头脑将自身所积累的一切都清空。 试一试。 去这么做，然后你就会看到其中会涉及到什么。 你所有的意象，关于丈夫、妻子、社会的意象， 乌托邦的意象——你明白吗？
54:38 Q:At the beginning you asked, sir: when there is that order is there something else? What then? 问：一开始你问，先生： 当存在那种秩序时，还会存在其他东西吗？然后会怎样？
54:46 K:I'm doing it, sir. We're doing it. I'm coming to that slowly. 克：我正在这么做，先生。我们在这么做。我在慢慢接近那点。
54:52 Q:Is that order enough? 问：那个秩序就够了吗？
55:01 K:You understand, sir? Can the mind function from nothingness? 克：你明白吗，先生？ 头脑能够从空无中运转吗？
55:16 Q:But so often the functioning is accumulated knowledge, like language, telephoning... 问：但更多的时候运转的是积累的知识， 像语言、电话
55:22 K:Yes, sir, of course, sir, I need that. I need the technological knowledge, that's understood, otherwise I wouldn't be able to go to my home, I wouldn't be able to write, I wouldn't be able to talk, I wouldn't be able to do a thing. But I'm asking whether the mind, which is the result of centuries of accumulation... Accumulation means time. Accumulation means knowledge. Accumulation means the past. And the quality of the mind that is the result of accumulation has no quality at all. I don't know if... It is repeating and therefore no quality. Now, seeing all this, what then? Because man has searched - we are using the word - searched and run after God. And without finding... without seeking for that something to happen, not the image of God, your God, my God, Christ, Buddha - you follow? - wiping all that out completely from one's vision, from one's mind and therefore not seeking, not asserting, not dividing. Without the touch of that something supreme this has no meaning. Putting the house in order - every cook does it - has no meaning. Now, so, please, shall we go on? How is this touch of something that is... to happen? Or there is no supreme, there is nothing there. I don't know if you are following all this. 克：是的，先生，那是当然，先生，我需要那些。 我需要那些技术知识，这很明白， 否则我就没法回家， 我就不能写字，我就不能说话， 我就不能做事情。 但我要问是否头脑， 作为很多世纪积累的结果 积累意味着时间。 积累意味着知识。 积累意味着过去。 而头脑的品质， 作为积累结果的头脑根本没有任何实质。 我不知道是否 它一直在重复， 因而没有实质。 现在，完全看到了这点，然后怎样？ 因为人类寻找过——我们用的是“寻找”这个词—— 寻找并追随过上帝。 而不想找到什么 不再寻求某种事情发生， 没有上帝，你的上帝、我的上帝、基督、佛陀的意象——你明白吗？—— 将这些完全从一个人的视野、 从一个人的头脑中清除， 从而没有寻求、没有主张、没有划分。 如果不触及那至高无上的东西，这些就没有什么意义。 整理房间——所有厨师都这样做—— 没有什么意义。 那么，请问，我们可以继续吗？ 与这个事物的接触如何才能发生？ 或者，不存在至高无上者，那里什么也没有。 我不知道你们是否完全理解了这些。
58:40 K:After all, can we say the search after God is to give meaning to life? Because we say, 'Well, what is this life?' - transient, frightfully boring, repetitive, destructive, conflict, jealousy, anger, brutality, immense sorrow - which has no meaning. Therefore we must find something much more, something supreme. And this has been the pattern of most religions. You may spit on religious organisations, churches, and temples, and mosques, but the feeling. That feeling is used by the communists to, you know, to sustain superstition and encourage church and then, you know all the business, we don't have to go into all that. So there it is. One has order. That's absolutely imperative because otherwise life is a battle and there is no peace in it. And having order of the highest quality - not the order of the housewife - having order, then the mind is asking: is that all? And knows that to seek something is its own image. 克：归根结底，我们能不能说 对上帝的追寻就是要赋予生活意义？ 因为我们说，“哦，这种生活算什么？” ——如此短暂，无聊得令人害怕， 重复、破坏、冲突、 嫉妒、愤怒、残暴、 无边的悲伤 ——这没有任何意义。 所以我们必须发现更多，发现某个至高无上的东西。 而这已经成为多数宗教的模式。 你可以唾弃那些宗教组织， 教堂、寺庙、清真寺， 但不唾弃那种感受。 你知道，那种感受被共产主义者用来 支持迷信和鼓励教会， 然后，你们完全知道这些事情，我们不必多讲。 因此就是这样。 一个人拥有了秩序。 秩序是绝对必要的， 因为，否则的话生活就是一场战争， 没有和平而言。 而拥有了 最高品质的秩序 ——不是家庭主妇的秩序—— 拥有了秩序， 接下来头脑要问：这就是全部吗？ 并且知道要寻找的某种东西 就是它自己的意象。
1:01:30 Q:That's disorder.

K:Yes, it's order and then disorder. Now, it has understood that - understood in the sense not verbally but actually seen, and not seek. Then what? A mind that has done this has become extraordinarily sensitive, highly educated, in the right sense, sensitive, orderly - that quality. And then it says, 'What?' It is still on a very low level. It may be aristocratic and not bourgeois but it is still a very small affair. So the mind says, not seeking, what does it do? 		问：那就是失序。

克：是的，先是秩序然后是失序。 现在，它理解了—— 不是言语上的理解， 而是真正看到了，并且不再寻求什么。 然后会怎样？ 做到了这一点的头脑变得异乎寻常地敏锐， 在正确的意义上得到了高度的教化， 是敏感的，有序的 ——具有这样的品质。 然后，它说，“会发生什么？” 它就仍然在一个非常低的层面上。 它可能是贵族式的，而不是资产阶级式的， 但它仍然是一个很渺小的东西。 所以头脑说， 不寻求的话，它会做什么呢？
1:03:06 Q:It's quiet. 问：它是安静的。
1:03:11 K:Be quiet. And then what, sir? 克：安静。然后呢，先生？
1:03:15 Q:Well, I find that… [inaudible] 问：哦，我发现……【听不清】
1:03:17 K:Look, sir, to be quiet... You know, I used to walk in Delhi, New Delhi, in a garden, and a poor man used to come on a bicycle every day at that hour when the sun was setting. He used to come on the bicycle, put the bicycle against a tree, sit cross-legged and go completely quiet. His body was completely still. And I watched him every day - I used to walk there every day. And he was probably a clerk of some government department, a horror, but this quietness to him was the very essence of life. He wouldn't miss a day. I walked every day there and he was there every day - Sunday, Saturday, doesn't matter - to him that was - you follow? - bliss. But inwardly he remains a clerk. Sorry, I'm not being snobbish. He remains Khrushchev, if you don't like a clerk [laughs] - he remains that - or Kosygin, or whatever, he remains that. And he was very quiet. No, sir, quietness isn't good enough. Go on, sirs. Because quietness, silence, the meditative mind, the religious quality of the mind, the order - you follow? - discipline, inward vitality, integrity, wholeness, excellence. 克：看，先生，安静 你知道，我过去经常在德里散步， 新德里的一个花园里， 一个可怜的家伙每天骑着自行车 在日落时分来到这里。 他经常骑自行车来， 把自行车靠在一棵树上， 盘腿坐下， 然后完全安静下来。 他的身体完全静止不动。 我每天都观察他——我那时每天从那里走过。 他可能是某个政府部门的职员，一个苦差事， 但这种安静对他来说，正是生活的必需。 他一天都不会错过。 我每天从那里经过，而他每天都在那里 ——星期天，星期六，都是如此—— 对他而言，那就是——你明白吗？——极乐。 但内心里他仍然是一个小职员。 抱歉，我并不是势利眼。 他仍然是赫鲁晓夫， 如果你不喜欢小职员的话【笑】——他依然如故—— 或者柯西金，或无论什么人，他仍然是那样。 而且他很安静。 不，先生，寂静还不够好。 继续，先生们。 因为寂静、安静、冥想的头脑， 头脑的宗教品质，秩序——你明白吗？—— 纪律、内在的活力、 正直、完整、美德。
1:05:51 Q:The quiet mind becomes a very sensitive receiver. 问：寂静的头脑变成了一个非常敏感的接收器。
1:05:55 K:Now wait a minute, sir. Agreed, one must have that. Not 'agreed' - it's like must have food to have energy, physical energy. You must have this to have energy. Then what? How do you receive something that is not of the mind? How does that mind which is not... which has the quality, which has finesse, which is very, very, very sensitive, alert, watchful - you can't come to that without all the other. You can't jump into it. So, being there, as it were, in this quality of mind, then how does that super-something come? Call it divine or supreme, the unnameable, whatever - because without that, this has very little meaning. 克：等一会儿，先生。同意你的说法，人必须具备那个。 不是“同意”——就像必须吃饭 才能拥有能量，身体的能量一样。 你必须吃下这些才能获得能量。 接下来怎样？ 你怎样接收不属于头脑的东西？ 那个不……的头脑， 那个头脑具有那种品质，非常精巧， 非常非常敏感、警觉、警醒 ——你无法达到那点，如果没有另一个东西。 你无法直接跳过去。 所以，当到了那一点，以头脑的这种品质， 接下来，那个超级的东西怎样来到？ 你可以称它为神圣的、至高无上的、无法命名的，无论什么称呼 ——因为如果没有那个东西，这些就没有什么意义。
1:07:32 Q:There's no sense of separateness. 问：没有分离的感觉。
1:07:34 K:Yes, sir, without that this has very little meaning. To become a very normal, healthy, sane human being is all right, is excellent. When we are not sane, not healthy, not balanced, to be balanced, to be healthy, to be whole, sane, is marvellous. But that isn't enough. 克：是的，先生，如果没有那个，这些就没有什么意义。 要成为一个十分正常、健康、 理智的人，这很好，很棒。 当我们还不理智、不健康、不平衡的时候， 达到平衡、健康、完整、理智，是非常不错的。 但是这还不够。
1:08:05 Q:How can one who has never experienced... 问：一个从来没有体验过的人怎么能
1:08:07 K:No, no, that's a wrong question, sir. [Laughter] You see, the moment you use the word 'experience' there must be an experiencer, therefore division, therefore conflict. Which means seeking. After all, when you want experience... when you are seeking you want experience. Either you get it through chemicals, drugs, and marijuana, pot, and grass, and all the rest of it, or inwardly invoke that experience. And all that's too immature. Wipe it all out. [Laughs] 克：不，不，这个问题是错误的，先生。【笑声】 你看，一旦你用“经历”这个词， 就必定存在一个经历者， 于是就有了区分，就有了冲突。 那就意味着寻求。 毕竟，当你想要经验 当你在寻求的时候你渴望得到经验。 要么你通过化学药品、毒品、大麻和草药 以及诸如此类的一切，来得到这种体验， 要么从内在唤起这种体验。 而所有那些都太不成熟了。要全部抛弃。【笑】
1:09:04 Q:I don't know if you can do anything at all. 问：我根本不知道你是否能做任何事情。
1:09:09 K:No, no. We have finished with that - you can't do anything. You as the observer, the censor, the experiencer, if you do anything you belong to disorder. That's simple. That's clear. No, sir, we can say it's clear because one has done it - otherwise it's not clear. Please, I'm not trying to impress you. You understand? So what then? 克：不，不。 我们已经说完那个了——你不能做任何事情。 你作为观察者、检查者、经历者， 如果你做任何事情你就属于失序。 这很简单。这很清楚。 不，先生，我们可以说这很清楚，因为有个人已经做到了 ——否则这点就不清楚。 拜托，我并不是要努力让你印象深刻。你明白吗？ 那么然后会发生什么？
1:09:47 Q:The mind is completely empty and becomes completely receptive and open to the whole universe. 问：头脑完全空掉并且变得具有完全的接受性， 对这整个宇宙开放。
1:09:54 K:You understand, sir, the question? You understand the question? You can have a perfect house, well proportioned, beautiful space, lovely furniture, everything is spotless and fairly comfortable - what? So man says there must be something more. So he runs after it. And now the man says that's no good either. That's finished. I won't seek. It is not a determination; he sees the futility of seeking. Then is he to wait for that supreme touch? Then is he to meditate? Not about the supreme stuff, but to meditate to keep the mind completely empty of everything that it's accumulated, and therefore no accumulation ever. Try it, do it, sirs, you'll see the beauty of this. Is love accumulation, a collection of memories, a collection of images, sex or otherwise? And also one notices, if there is no love, in the right... love in the proper sense in which there is no jealousy, no antagonism - clean - pleasure doesn't touch it enjoyment, joy or... part of love, not pleasure. Have all that. Must have all that. Without love you can't do a thing. So having all that, how does that thing happen? Right, sirs? Because if that doesn't happen, creativeness is merely something you put in the museum. The cook baking bread is also creative. So everything becomes very small, tawdry, limited, futile, meaningless without the other. Now, how does the other happen? Go on, sirs. Waiting is impossible. If the mind waits... 克：先生，你理解这个问题吗？你理解这个问题了吗？ 你可以有一座很好的房子， 有着完美的比例和空间布局， 有漂亮的家具，一切都无可挑剔， 并且非常舒适——怎么样呢？ 于是有人说肯定有更多的东西存在。 于是他就去追求它。 现在那个人说那也没什么好的。 那就结束了。 我不会寻求。 这不是一个决定； 他看到了寻求的徒劳。 接下来他要去等待那个至高无上者来接触吗？ 接下来，他要去冥想吗？ 不是冥想那个至高无上的东西， 而是去冥想以保持头脑 完全空掉它所积累的东西， 因而没有了任何的积累。 试一下，去做，先生们，你将看到这样做的美。 爱是积累、 收藏记忆、 收集意象、性或相反的东西吗？ 并且，你也注意到， 如果没有爱，以正确的 正确意义上的爱，没有嫉妒，没有敌意 —— 纯净 —— 欢愉没有沾染它， 享受、喜悦或……爱的一部分，不是欢愉。 拥有这一切。必须具备这一切。 如果没有爱你就不能做任何事情。 所以具备了这一切，那件事情要怎样发生？ 对吗，先生们？ 因为如果那件事情不发生， 创造性就只是你放在博物馆里的东西。 厨师烤制面包也是创造性的。 于是任何事情都变得非常渺小、琐碎、局限、 徒劳而又毫无意义，如果没有另一个东西的话。 那么，另外一个东西怎样才能发生？ 继续，先生们。 等待是不可能的。 如果头脑等待
1:15:24 Q:It is seeking if it is waiting. Waiting is seeking. 问：如果它在等待，它就是在寻求。等待就是寻求。
1:15:28 K:Waiting, expecting, hoping - then it becomes a tawdry little mind. 克：等待，期待，希望—— 这样它就变成了琐碎的、渺小的头脑。
1:15:47 Q:So to wait is insufficient and to do anything is insufficient. I don't see any alternative. 问：所以，等待是不够的，并且做任何事情都是不够的。 我看不到任何可替代的选择。
1:15:58 K:Then what do you mean, alternative? Between what? 克：那么，你说的选择是什么意思呢？在什么之间选择？
1:16:01 Q:What else is there, between waiting… 问：在等待之间，还存在什么？
1:16:06 K:You don't wait.

Q:No, that would be… 		克：你不要等待。

问：对，那会
1:16:09 K:Ah, no, see the danger of waiting, what is involved in waiting. Waiting means expecting, hoping. Then you are lost, then you invent something. The mind will cunningly invent a loophole through which it has discovered God. 克：啊，不，看到等待的危险，等待中涉及到什么。 等待意味着期待、希望。 然后你就迷失了，然后你就会发明出什么东西来。 头脑会狡猾地发明一个圈套， 通过这个圈套它发现了上帝。
1:16:37 Q:What else is there? 问：另外还有什么？
1:16:40 K:The moment you say, 'What else is there?' there is nothing. Has the mind come to this point? So that it is free of the past, free of... You know, sir, what all this means? Work. Not in order to receive that. Any of that is a bargaining then. I think then... you see, sirs, then the other seeks such a mind out. Right? 克：一旦你说“另外还有什么”，就什么也没有。 头脑认识到这点了吗？ 这样，它就从过去中解放了出来，摆脱了 你知道，先生，这一切意味着什么？ 加油。 不是为了接收那个。 否则，就成了讨价还价。 我认为然后……你们看，先生们， 然后“另外一个”就会找出这样一个头脑。对吗？
1:18:13 Q:I didn't hear you, sorry. 问：我没听清你说的，抱歉。
1:18:17 K:The other seeks such a mind out. You don't have to run after God - God runs after you. [Laughs] Yes, sir! 克：“另外一个”会找出这样一个头脑。 你不必追寻上帝——上帝会追寻你。【笑】 是的，先生！
1:19:13 Q:I have a question I'd like to find an answer to, and that's: why do I call me 'me'? Why do I call this 'me'? And why do I want to defend it? Because that's what goes on when I go back outside. 问：我有个问题，我想找到答案，那就是： 为什么我叫我为“我”？我为什么把这个叫做“我”？ 而我又为什么想去捍卫它呢？ 因为这就是我回到外面以后会发生的事情。
1:19:29 K:Probably it's habit. You know, sir, this is all habit. 克：可能是因为习惯。你知道，先生，这都是习惯。
1:19:34 Q:Why? I have to see it for myself, why. 问：为什么？我必须亲自看到这一点，为什么。
1:19:40 K:No, sir, we are conditioned by the verb 'to be' - that's why. The verb has conditioned us, the verb 'to be.' Right, sir? 克：不，先生，我们被“成为”这个词制约了 ——那就是为什么。 这个词制约了我们，“成为”这个动词。 对吗，先生？
1:20:15 We'd better stop - don't you? - and go on tomorrow. 我们今天就到这里，好吗？——明天再继续。