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ML70DSG8 - 人要如何彻底摆脱恐惧？
第八次小组讨论
美国，马里布
1970年3月29日



0:14 K:I wonder how one can speed down, lower down or shorten the speed of fear. I think that we should go into that a little more, deeply into the question of fear, don't you? I don't know if... Because we have touched upon it two or three times during the course of these discussions and I'm not sure to what depth or to what extent one has really understood it and free from that terrible thing. Shall we discuss it this morning?

Q:Yes. 		克：我想知道如何去减缓、 降低或缩减恐惧的速度。 我想我们需要更深入一些， 深入探讨恐惧的问题，好吗？ 我不知道是否 因为我们在前几次讨论的过程中 已经触及到这个问题两三次了， 而我不清楚你们从何种深度 或广度上对它有了多少真正的理解， 以及在何种程度上摆脱了这件可怕的事情。 我们今天上午就讨论这个问题，好吗？

问：好的。
1:47 K:One becomes aware of it, or it is there always dormant and awakens to any challenge that is disagreeable or dangerous, to any questioning, of any form of resistance and security, both psychological, psychosomatic and otherwise. When one becomes aware of it, fear, how does one... what does one do with it, or what is there to be done? Please, let us - don't let me carry on alone. 克：一个人觉察到恐惧， 或者，它始终蛰伏在那儿， 一旦面临任何不愉快、 危险的挑战 或遇到任何质疑就苏醒过来， 对任何形式的抗拒和安全感的质疑， 无论是心理层面、身心层面还是其他方面的。 当一个人觉察到恐惧， 他怎样 会拿它怎么办，或者能做什么呢？ 请让我们一起来——不要让我一个人说下去。
2:51 Q:To understand the fear is to be afraid now, no? 问：要理解恐惧就是要现在感到害怕，不是吗？
2:54 K:No, sir, no, no. Don't reduce it to such... [laughs] Fear, sir, physical danger, physical illness and the pain of it, and the recurring of that pain, fear of death, fear of loneliness, fear of not being able to fulfil, fear of not being loved, fear of complete isolation, loneliness, fear of not having anything to depend upon - you know, the various types of fears one has, from the most neurotic to the most neurotically sublime. What is one to do? Will the understanding of the cause of that fear - of fear, not of any particular fear, but of fear - absolve fear, dissipate it? One knows the cause of fear as loneliness, not having anything to depend upon, belief, person or things. Knowing the cause, knowing all the intricacies, all the explanations, all the descriptions, will that somehow get rid of fear? Won't you join me in this, or am I to carry on by myself? 克：不，先生，不不，不要把它降低到如此……【笑】 恐惧，先生，身体的恐惧， 身体的疾病及其痛苦， 以及那种病痛的复发， 对死亡的恐惧，对孤单的恐惧， 对不能达成愿望的恐惧， 对不被关爱的恐惧， 对彻底孤立、寂寞的恐惧， 对无所依靠的恐惧 ——你知道，人有各种形式的恐惧， 从最神经质的到最神经质式的极端的恐惧。 那么人该怎么办？ 了解那种恐惧的根源 ——就是恐惧，不是任何特别的恐惧，而是恐惧本身—— 将会去除恐惧、驱散恐惧吗？ 一个人了解像孤独这种恐惧的原因， 没有任何可依靠的东西，信仰、人或物。 知道了原因，完全了解了其错综复杂、 所有的解释、所有的描述， 那会在一定程度上除掉恐惧吗？ 你们难道不和我一起探讨这个话题吗，还是我要独自进行呢？
5:34 Q:When you see yourself in that fear and you see, you understand, you can feel it and see it - isn't that the moment where it just isn't anymore, and you can act on that thing. But you do not act, I mean, you don't react, you see it, and you just go. 问：当你看到自己处于那种恐惧中， 而且你看到、你了解，你能感受它、看到它 ——难道那不恰恰就是它不复存在的时刻吗， 并且你可以对那个东西采取行动。 但你没有行动，我的意思是，你没有作出反应， 你看到它，然后你就那样走开了。
6:05 Q:Isn't what to do about fear more important than the fear itself? 问：难道对恐惧采取什么行动不是比恐惧本身更重要吗？
6:15 K:Fear itself is more important than what you do about fear. 克：恐惧本身比你对恐惧做什么更重要。
6:19 Q:He said the reverse.

K:You said the reverse - all right. All right, sir, you have explained all these things - then what? When I leave this room I'm still afraid - it has me by the throat. And I would like to entirely be free of it, completely, so it never touches the mind. How is that to be done? Does one really want to do this, to be entirely free of fear, or is fear a sustaining element in our life? Belief, obviously, is the result of fear - belief in so many things. And knowing the danger of belief we cling to it, though it breeds fear. So does one really understand the nature of belief and then with it fear goes? Which means the mind becomes more... mind is freed from the things that are causing fear. That's one problem. Then the other is: is it to be done slowly, analytically, taking time, day after day cutting, peeling off the layers of fear, or must it be done at once totally, completely? I don't know if I am making myself clear. 		问：他说的正相反。

克：你说的正相反——没关系。 没关系，先生，你解释了所有这些事情——然后怎么样呢？ 当我离开这个房间，我还是会恐惧——它扼着我的咽喉。 而我想要完全摆脱它，彻底摆脱它， 使它永远不再沾染心灵。 怎样做到这点呢？ 你确实想做到这点， 完全摆脱恐惧吗， 或者，恐惧是不是我们生命中的一个支撑因素呢？ 显然，信仰是恐惧的产物 ——信仰这么多东西。 而知道了信仰的危险， 我们仍旧依附于它，尽管它会产生恐惧。 那么，是不是一个人真的理解了信仰的本质， 然后恐惧就会随之消失呢？ 那意味着头脑变得更 头脑摆脱了导致恐惧的事物。 这是一个问题。 另外一个问题是：是缓慢地进行分析、花费时间 一天天削减、一层层剥落恐惧呢， 还是一举就彻底完成呢？ 我不知道我说清楚没有。
9:13 Q:I can't see that there isn't preparation before seeing it completely, totally. 问：我不认为在完全看清它之前 不需要准备。
9:18 K:No, sir, I know this is the good old business of preparation, training, discipline.

Q:Can we go into that? 		克：不，先生，我知道这是老一套的准备工作， 训练、纪律。

问：我们可以探讨一下这个吗？
9:27 K:Wait, we're going to go into all that presently, but let us see the question involved in this, the question itself. 克：等一下，我们现在马上要讨论那些， 但让我们先看看其中牵涉的问题，问题本身。
9:36 Q:Can fear give you confidence to act? 问：恐惧能给你行动的自信吗？
9:41 K:No, I - please. One is afraid - fear caused by belief - because I hold on to a particular form of concept, formula, ideation, which is very gratifying, gives me vitality, gives me something to lean on - my wife, my husband, my house, my belief, my God, my religion, my - you know - knowledge, and so on, so on. And that, the very leaning on it, depending on it, sustains fear. 克：不，我——拜托。 我感到恐惧——信仰引起的恐惧—— 因为我执着于某种特定的概念、模式、构想， 它们让我感到满足，赋予我活力， 让我有所倚靠 ——我的妻子，我的丈夫，我的房子， 我的信仰，我的神，我的宗教，我的 ——你知道的——知识，等等，等等。 而正是对它们的依靠、依赖，滋养了恐惧。
10:31 Q:Which means that fear sustains itself. 问：也就是恐惧滋养了它自身。
10:34 K:So that's one question: do I really... does the mind really want to be free of belief? And therefore awaken fear, bring it out, not wait for it to come bit by bit. Then the other thing involved is: is this to be done gradually, little by little? Which is, prepare - prepare to meet fear totally, to understand it completely - eyes that have been trained, prepared, disciplined, made attentive, alert, aware. All that implies time. Or is it to be... is the mind to put aside all that - for me all that is fallacy - and face the whole thing? Through one belief I can see the whole structure of all belief, all concepts, all formulas, all dependence on organisations, psychologically. So, one knows fairly well the cause of fear, which is dependence and therefore lack of love. When the mind depends on somebody or on some belief, love is absent, obviously, and it breeds fear. Now, is the mind capable of being free of belief, opinion, judgement, concepts, formulas, which divide? As we were saying yesterday, which divide and therefore conflict and therefore fear, and all the rest of it. Does one really, does the mind, each one's mind, does it say it must be? Do we go that far? 克：所以这是一个问题：我真的 头脑真的想要摆脱信仰吗？ 进而将恐惧唤醒，释放出来， 不等它自己慢慢出来。 然后牵涉到的另外一个事情是： 这要逐渐地、一点一点地完成吗？ 那就是，准备好 ——准备好完全面对恐惧， 完全了解它—— 训练有素的、 全神贯注的、警觉的、清醒的眼睛。 所有这些都意味着时间。 或者是不是要 头脑是不是要将那一切放在一边 ——对我而言，那一切都是错误的—— 来面对这整件事情？ 通过一个信仰，我可以看到所有信仰、 所有概念、所有模式、 所有对组织的依赖这整个心理结构。 因此，你非常了解恐惧的根源， 那就是依赖，进而缺少爱。 当头脑依靠某个人或某个信仰时， 显然，爱就缺席了， 并产生了恐惧。 那么，头脑能够 摆脱造成分裂的信仰、观念、 评判、概念、模式吗？ 因为我们昨天说过，分裂导致冲突、 导致恐惧，以及诸如此类的一切。 一个人，头脑，每个人的头脑，真的会说它一定要那样吗？ 我们达到那种程度了吗？
13:51 Q:When you see the fallacy of any one of these things... 问：当你看到这些东西中任何一个的谬误
13:54 K:Not 'when,' sir - do you see it? No, don't let's theorise about it. I want to leave this morning... when I leave this room I want to be free of fear forever. It won't touch the mind. Otherwise it's not worth it. You follow? So how is that to be done? 克：不是“当……时候”，先生——你看到了吗？ 不，我们不要将它理论化。我今天上午想离开 当我离开这间屋子时我要永远摆脱恐惧。 它不会再沾染头脑。 否则这一切都不值得。你明白吗？ 那么如何做到这一点呢？
14:16 Q:Sir, haven't you gone through preparation? 问：先生，你难道没有经历过准备吗？
14:18 K:No, no, no, cut me out! No, no, I don't think that works that way - preparation. Do you know what it means, sir? Do listen to it. Preparation implies time - right? - gradually prepare to face fear, to face loneliness. 克：不，不，不，把我排除在外！ 不，不，我认为以那种方式——准备的方式是行不通的。 你知道它意味着什么吗，先生？请务必听一下。 准备意味着时间——对吗？—— 逐渐准备好去面对恐惧，面对孤独。
14:37 Q:No.

K:Then what are you preparing? 		问：不。克: 那你在准备什么？
14:40 Q:I see it as a matter of acquiring a tool. I don't expect to see it through the practice. 问：我把它看作是“获得某种工具”之类的事情。 我没打算从练习的角度看待这个问题。
14:49 K:Look, sir, look at your own difficulty. Who is the entity that is acquiring the tool? It is thought, obviously - thought sharpened. Our thought is dull, accepts things, says: yes, I know, fear is caused by belief and formulas, ideations, divisions, so it is inevitable, it's part of our instinct, part of our culture, part of our society, part of our religion, and we've got into the habit of it, and so the mind being rather dull accepts it. And you say to sharpen dullness needs time. Right? Come on, sirs. 克：你看，先生，看一下你自己的困难。 谁是那个获得工具的实体？ 显然是思想， ——被削尖的思想。 我们的思想是迟钝的，它接受各种事情，说： 是的，我知道，恐惧起因于信仰、 模式、构想、区分， 所以它是不可避免的，是我们本性的一部分、我们文化的一部分、 我们社会的一部分、我们宗教的一部分， 并且我们已经对它习以为常， 所以非常迟钝的头脑接受了恐惧。 于是你说要磨快迟钝就需要时间。 对吗？ 拜托，先生们。
15:59 Q:Growth needs time. 问：成长需要时间。
16:03 K:Growth needs time. Baby, up to manhood, and all the rest of it - time. Is there such thing as time in the field of psychology, in the psyche? Psychologically is there time at all? You see, that... 克：成长需要时间。 婴儿，成长到成年，以及诸如此类的事情——时间。 在心理和精神领域存在时间这样的东西吗？ 心理上到底存在时间吗？你看，
16:27 Q:And is this a question of growth? Is growth involved? 问：那这是一个成长的问题吗？那牵涉到成长吗？
16:35 K:What is it that is growing?

Q:Thought. 		克：长大的是什么？

问：思想。
16:42 K:Thought. Look, sir, can thought grow? Thought being the past, a response of the past. You can strengthen the past and strengthen thought, not make it grow. Is there such thing as growth? 克：思想。 你看，先生，思想能长大吗？ 思想就是过去，过去的反应。 你能强化过去，强化思想， 但不能使它成长。 存在成长这样的事情吗？
17:19 Q:I have seen people grow progressively less fearful in a marked way, but I personally have never seen people instantaneously... 问：我看到人们逐渐长大， 恐惧显著减少， 但我没有亲自看到人们瞬间
17:29 K:We are going to find out, sir. 克：我们会搞清楚的，先生。
17:32 Q:If we have a door, either we open it or the door remains closed. Either the door is closed or it's open, never in between. 问：如果我们有一扇门，我们要么打开它，要么让它保持关闭状态。 门要么关要么开，从来不会在开关之间。
17:44 Q:Isn't the word 'growth' here a concept and therefore it lies in comparison? 问：难道“成长”这个词在这儿不是个概念吗， 所以它存在于比较之中？
17:49 K:Look, sir, we have accepted growth as a means of getting rid of fear, slowly - you know, the whole traditional thing. In that acceptance, in the idea of growth, time, what is it that is growing? 克：你看，先生，我们接受成长 是摆脱恐惧的一种手段， 慢慢地——你知道，所有传统的事情。 在这种接受、这种成长和时间的想法之中， 是什么在成长呢？
18:19 Q:Isn't it thought, which is the problem to begin with? 问：难道不就是产生问题的思想吗？
18:22 K:Look, what is growing? What is it that we have accepted as inevitable that you should grow, slowly get rid of fear? 克：看一看，是什么在成长？ “我们接受为不可避免”， 认为“你应该成长，慢慢摆脱恐惧”的是什么呢？
18:31 Q:The centre from which fear is coming. 问：作为恐惧来源的那个中心。
18:34 K:You find out, sir, look at it, find out. 克：你去弄清楚，先生，看着它，找出答案。
18:39 Q:The accumulation of experience. 问：经验的积累。
18:45 K:Accumulation of experience. Man has fought wars for the last five thousand years, and it's still going on. Experience must have taught the poor chap not to kill by now, but he goes on killing. No, we're not facing the issue. Look, I'm afraid. I'm afraid of being completely lonely, I'm afraid of not being loved, not being famous, not being somebody in this world, and so on - afraid. And am I to get rid of it, is the mind to be free of it slowly? Is that ever possible? Which means I must have time from here to there - 'there' being when the mind is free of fear. Now, what happens in that interval between now and tomorrow? What happens there? 克：经验的积累。 人类在最近五千年来一直战火纷飞， 而这种情况如今仍在继续。 到现在为止，经验应该已经教会那可怜的家伙不要去杀人了， 但他继续杀戮。 不，我们没有面对这个问题。 看，我害怕。 我害怕完全孤独， 我怕得不到爱，成不了名， 在世界上默默无闻，等等——害怕。 而我，头脑要慢慢摆脱它吗？ 这究竟可能吗？ 那意味着我需要时间从这儿到那儿 ———“那儿”就是头脑摆脱了恐惧的时候。 那么，在这个时间间隔里面， 在现在和明天之间会发生什么呢？ 那里会发生什么呢？
20:07 Q:Fear. 问：恐惧。
20:08 K:No, do watch it, sir - what happens? 克：不，确实去观察它，先生——发生了什么？
20:13 Q:Can you not examine it, to stay with it, to look what is implied? 问：你能不分析它，而是与它待在一起，去看它意味着什么吗？
20:17 K:No, no, do look at this simple phenomenon, sir. What happens between now, when I am afraid, when the mind is afraid, till when it is not going to be afraid through time, growth, evolve? 克：不，不，先生，就看一下这个简单的现象。 在我害怕、头脑害怕的现在 直到通过时间、成长、进化我不再害怕的那时， 这之间发生了什么？
20:39 Q:What is… 问：什么
20:40 K:Do listen, look at the fact, sir! Don't speculate on it. What happens if I think I'll be happy in two week's time? 克：务必听一听，先生，看看这个事实！ 别去猜测它。 如果我认为我两周后会幸福， 那会发生什么呢？
21:10 Q:You relax. [Laughter]

Q:Illusion. 		问：你放松了。【笑声】

问：幻象。
21:16 K:Do look at it, sir, do look at the fact. I am violent and eventually, slowly, gradually I'll become non-violent. Violence will peter out of me. What has happened between these... between the interval, between now and then? Am I not strengthening violence? Are there not other factors entering into violence, into that period of time? Won't I have more problems engendered by violence? No?

Q:I don't see why. 		克：确实去看，先生，务必看一下这个事实。 我现在暴力， 而最后，慢慢地，逐渐地，我会变得不暴力。 暴力将在我的生活中消失。 这之间发生了什么 在这个时间间隔，在现在和那时之间？ 我不是在强化暴力吗？ 是否有其他因素进入暴力， 进入那段时间呢？ 难道我不是有了更多暴力引起的问题吗？ 没有吗？

问：我不明白为什么。
22:09 K:No? 克：没有吗？
22:16 Q:All sorts of things intervene and you haven't really given your attention totally to the one thing that you're trying to be free of. 问：有各种事情干扰， 因而你无法全神贯注到 你在尽力摆脱的那个事情上。
22:26 K:Therefore why not give your whole attention to the fact of fear now, not gradually…? Sir, come on, sir. 克：那么，现在为什么不将你的全部注意力集中到恐惧的事实上呢？ 而不是逐渐地……先生，来吧，先生。
22:40 Q:The hard point is seeing that the future as opposed to the present is conflict, violence. 问：难点在于看到 与现在相对立的未来就是冲突、暴力。
22:45 K:Of course. No, sir, I want to be... the mind says, 'I must be free when I leave this room.' What are you going to do? Put that question and see what happens. 克：当然。不，先生，我想 那个头脑说，“当离开这房间时，我必须是自由的。” 那你要做什么呢？ 提出这个问题，看看会发生什么。
23:10 Q:If I want to be free of it then I want to see it now while I'm here. 问：如果我想在那时摆脱它，那么我想现在我在这儿时就看到它。
23:18 K:See it then. Don't introduce time into the factor, into the fact. If you're hungry, would you say, 'Gradually I'll eat, take time, months and years to satisfy my hunger'? And fear is much more dangerous. So what will you do? What will you do when faced with this fact, that when you leave this room one must be free of it completely? 克：那就看到它。 不要把时间带进这个事实。 如果你饿了，你会说 “我逐渐去吃， 花上几个月、几年的时间来消除我的饥饿”吗？ 而恐惧要危险得多。 所以你会怎么做呢？ 当你面对这个事实， 就是当你离开这个房间时必须完全摆脱恐惧， 你会怎么做呢？
24:17 Q:How can you undo the conditioning, say, of fifty years of fear in one split second? 问：你如何能在一瞬间消除， 比方说，五十年的恐惧造成的制约呢？
24:24 K:I'll show it to you in a minute, sir. You go on at it. You keep at it. You will soon find out. 克：我马上就会展示给你，先生，你继续看这个问题。 你盯住它。你很快会找到答案的。
24:34 Q:If you compare it to hunger, you want to sit down and get at it right now. 问：如果你用饥饿来打比方， 你想马上就坐下，并据案大嚼。
24:39 K:Do it. 克：去做就是。
24:45 Q:Are we looking for a replacement for fear? 问：我们要为恐惧找个替代品吗？
24:47 K:No, that's another trick. A substitution for fear is still fear. 克：不，那是另外一种骗局。 恐惧的替代品仍然是恐惧。
24:53 Q:Yes, that's why we can't get rid of it. 问：是的，这就是为什么我们无法摆脱它的原因。
24:56 K:No. Look, sir, look at what our mind does. I'm afraid, the mind is afraid, and so we say: we are used to this conditioning that it must be done gradually, it cannot be done instantly. That's one of our blocks, right? No? 克：不。 看，先生，看看我们的头脑在做什么。 我害怕，那个头脑害怕， 因此我们说: 我们习惯了这样的制约，我们只能逐渐摆脱它， 而不能立刻消除它。 这是我们的绊脚石之一，对吗？不是吗？
25:27 Q:Yes. 问：是的。
25:29 K:Now, can you get rid of that block? Can the mind brush it away? 克：那么，你能除去那个障碍吗？头脑能扫除它吗？
25:37 Q:If there's the urgency.

K:Isn't it an urgent thing this? 		问：如果情况紧急的话。

克：难道这不是一件紧急的事情吗？
25:41 Q:No. It hurts a little, but not badly. 问：不是。有点伤害，但不是很严重。
25:48 K:Why isn't it urgent, sir? 克：为什么它不紧急，先生？
25:51 Q:God knows. 问：天知道。
25:54 K:God knows. When you say, 'God knows,' you mean you haven't thought about it. No, I'm not laughing at it. I mean, I haven't thought about the mess in the world. 克：天知道。当你这么说的时候， 你的意思是你没思考过这个问题。 不，我不是在嘲笑这件事情。 我的意思是，我还没有考虑世界上的混乱。
26:21 Q:So we see that time is out, sir. 问：这样我们看到时间被排除在外了，先生。
26:23 K:No, no. We say that, sir, and go back to it. 克：不，不。我们那样说，先生，回到问题上面去。
26:26 Q:No, we see that it's out, it's mathematically impossible. 问：不，我们看到它不在其中，它在数理上是不可能的。
26:31 K:And that means analysis is out.

Q:Everything is. 		克：这就意味着分析不在其中。

问：所有的都是。
26:35 K:No, no, look at it, sir. Time means analysis. 克：不，不，看一看，先生。时间意味着分析。
26:42 Q:Analysis means time.

K:Of course, both. So the mind has rejected completely analysis. And it has rejected completely the cause. 		问：分析意味着时间。

克：当然，两个都是。 于是头脑彻底地放弃了分析。 然后它彻底地丢掉了造成恐惧的原因。
27:05 Q:And faith. 问：以及信念。
27:06 K:Faith is formula, and all the rest of it. No, wait, sir, do it, sir, let's... So is the mind that is now here operating free, without substituting another cause, another escape, of the idea of analysis? Analysis implies the analyser and the analysed. Analysis implies a constant examination, and each examination, analysis, must be complete, otherwise you carry over something which is going to interpret the next analysis. All that involves time - terrific danger. Does one see that? And the seeing of it, will it take time? I wonder why we accept time at all, apart from the chronological time, time by the watch - yesterday, today and tomorrow - why we accept time at all. Is it part of laziness, indolence? Part of this terrible indifference, which accepts, puts up with, and so on? 克：信念就是模式，以及诸如此类的一切。 不，等一下，先生，去做，先生，让我们 那么，此时在这里运作的头脑是不是就自由了， 不再用另一种缘由、另一种逃避 来代替分析这个想法了呢？ 分析意味着分析者和被分析之物。 分析意味着持续的研究， 而每一次研究和分析必须彻底， 否则你就会延续某种 将会解释下一次分析的东西。 所有这些都涉及到时间——这极其危险。 你看到这点了吗？ 而看到这点，要花费时间吗？ 我想知道我们究竟为什么接受时间的存在， 除了物理时间、 钟表记录的时间——昨天、今天、明天—— 我们究竟为什么接受时间。 一部分是因为懒惰吗？ 一部分是因为接受、容忍等等之类 可怕的冷漠 之类的东西吗？
29:57 Q:It also extends the power of our egos because... 问：它也扩大了我们“自我”的力量，因为
30:01 K:Yes, sir. Is time, analysis, out of your system altogether? [Laughs] And if you find the cause of fear, will that free the mind of fear? 克：是的，先生。 时间、分析完全在你的系统之外了吗？【笑】 如果你发现了恐惧的原因， 那会将头脑从恐惧中解放出来吗？
30:41 Q:Fear in duration. 问：持续的恐惧。
30:46 K:In duration? 克：持续的？
30:47 Q:Yes, there also would be time.

K:Of course. 		问：是的，也存在时间。

克：当然。
30:53 Q:Not fear itself. Let's say that right now I experience fear. Now, if the process of fear, I let it happen all the way through until the experience completely happens, and I devote myself totally to it without bringing the future into it - in other words, 'I'll handle this part of it tomorrow' - the total fear of whatever I'm afraid of right now, I let myself wide open and let it happen. And when I leave the room I cannot carry this part of what is taking place outside. 问：不是恐惧本身。 让我们假设，现在我体验到恐惧。 那么，如果我让恐惧的过程畅通无阻地发生， 直到完成整个经历， 我完完全全地投身于其中， 而不引入未来 ——换句话说就是“我将明天处理这部分”—— 我现在无论害怕什么，对这整个恐惧， 我敞开自己，让它发生。 然后当我离开这个房间时， 我就不会把正在发生的这部分带到外面去。
31:40 K:Yes, sir, that's right. Why don't we do that? Why don't we, when fear arises, give complete attention to it? 克：是的，先生，没错。那为什么我们不这样做呢？ 当恐惧出现时，我们为什么不给予它完全的注意力呢？
31:53 Q:With a child, we say, 'Do not be afraid' - we deny that fear is part of the human experience, this human quality that we all have. 问：对一个孩子，我们说， “别怕” ——我们否认恐惧是人类经验的一部分—— 这种我们人类都有的品质。
32:10 Q:Fear is something to be afraid of. 问：恐惧就是让人害怕的东西。
32:16 Q:When you're a child, you don't have that process of time as much, and I think one learns to use it to protect oneself from fear. 问：当你是个孩子的时候，那种时间过程你并没有那么多， 而我想一个人学会这点，是要用它来保护自己免于恐惧。
32:31 Q:A child doesn't have any fear if he has no thought of the moment, of before. 问：孩子没有任何恐惧， 如果他不去想现在和过去。
32:41 K:Sir, need we - forgive me for reminding you - need we discuss a child when we are grown-up people? At least thinking we are grown-up. Here is a problem, sir, do please put your teeth into this. Because I see, the mind sees the tremendous danger of fear - how it can become neurotic, pervert, you know, the most destructive thing in life, fear. We have tried so many ways to get rid of it, escape of different kinds, rationalising it, and so on, so on, so on. And if the mind says, 'Now, there must be a way of getting rid of it completely.' If you apply your mind to the finding out what to do to end it completely, won't you have the energy for it? 克：先生，我们是不是需要——原谅我提醒你—— 我们已经是成人了，我们需要讨论小孩子吗？ 至少认为我们是成人。 这儿有个问题，先生，请把它穷究到底。 因为我看到，头脑看到恐惧的巨大威胁 ——你知道，它怎样变成神经过敏的、扭曲的、 生活中最具毁灭性的东西，恐惧。 我们尝试了如此多的途径来摆脱它， 各种各样的逃避， 将其合理化，等等，等等，等等。 而如果头脑说， “一定有一种方法可以彻底地摆脱它。” 如果你运用自己的头脑去发现 怎样彻底终结它， 难道你不具备去做的能量吗？
34:27 Q:Sir? What one must do then to be free of any cause of fear, any dependency, anything at all which we have come to depend upon for so long, whether it be money or anything else at all - would imply walking out of the room with no fear at all, would imply a person who is totally himself… [inaudible] 问：先生？那么需要做什么才能摆脱恐惧的起因、 所有依赖、所有 我们依靠很久的事情， 不管是金钱还是任何别的东西 ——那意味着离开这个房间时完全没有了恐惧， 意味着一个人完全是他自己……【无法听清】
35:03 K:To be oneself are you saying? I should think oneself is the most dangerous fear. 克：你说的是做你自己？ 我认为“自己”是最危险的恐惧。
35:11 Q:Well, what I meant by that, sir, be totally independent. 问：嗯，先生，我那样说的意思是，完全独立。
35:17 Q:It seems to me that we aren't serious enough about it. 问：在我看来我们对这个问题不够认真。
35:21 K:Then why, sir, then why take all this trouble to come and sit here and discuss with the poor chap coming from... What's the point of it? Just for the fun of it? 克：那为什么，先生，为何不辞辛苦来到这里， 坐在这儿同这个远道而来的可怜的家伙讨论， 其意义何在？ 仅仅是好玩儿吗？
35:32 Q:No, I mean if we were trapped...

K:You are trapped! 		问：不，我的意思是如果我们被困住了……

克：你的确被困住了！
35:35 Q:...and there's no other way out…

K:You are trapped! 		问：……找不到其他出路……

克： 你的确陷进去了！
35:39 Q:Don't we put all our energy into the evasion of fear and therefore never get anyplace? 问：难道我们不是将所有的精力都放在了规避恐惧上， 所以从来也没有什么进展吗？
35:47 K:Of course you do. Evasion is one of our first instinctual responses. 克：当然你就是这样。 规避是我们最初的本能反应之一。
35:52 Q:That is fear.

K:Of course. You see, you're giving explanations. [Laughs] I can give a dozen explanations but at the end of it I've still got fear. What is to be done? 		问：那是恐惧。

克：当然。 你看，你在给出解释。【笑】 我能给出一打解释， 但最后我还是恐惧。 该怎么办呢？
36:10 Q:Are you implying that at any given moment there is no fear, but by giving it time we have fear, by giving it time? 问：你的意思是不是，在任何一个给定的时刻都没有恐惧， 但通过给它时间，我们就有了恐惧，是因为给了它时间吗？
36:16 K:Obviously. Moving away from 'what is,' the very movement away is fear. Now, can the mind not move away at all? Non-verbally, verbally, you know, in any form, not move away from that. 克：显然是的。 逃离“现状”， “逃离”本身恰恰就是恐惧。 那么，头脑能完全不逃离吗？ 以言语的方式，以非言语的方式，你知道，以任何一种形式， 不从那“现状”中逃离出来。
37:11 Q:I think you can only be quiet, and watch, and see what happens. 问：我想你只能安静下来，观察，看看会发生什么。
37:15 K:Oh, sir, don't - that's all time. [Laughs] Time won't absolve it. Time won't resolve it. Finding the cause of fear won't resolve it. Analysis won't free the mind from... So what is one to do? Go on, sirs, it's up to you. And also there is this question: the very deep, hidden fears, of which one is not aware - to bring all these out on the surface. 克：噢，先生，别——那全是时间。【笑】 时间免除不了恐惧，时间解决不了它。 找出恐惧产生的原因也解决不了恐惧。 分析不会解放头脑……那么一个人要怎么办呢？ 继续加油，先生们，这取决于你。 而且还有这样一个问题： 那深深隐藏的、 一个人还没有认识到的恐惧 ——要让这一切浮出表面。
38:49 Q:Are there different fears, sir, or is there only fear? 问：是有各种不同种类的恐惧呢，先生，还是只有恐惧本身？
38:54 K:I think there is fear in relation to different things. 克：我认为存在与不同事物相关的恐惧。
38:58 Q:But it's the same fear.

K:The same fear, of course. 		问：但那是同一种恐惧。

克：当然，是同一种恐惧。
39:01 Q:How can we bring them all out? There are a million of them. 问：我们怎么才能把它们都暴露出来呢？它们数以百万计。
39:03 K:No, sir, look at the... you see, look at the problem involved. 克：不，先生，看看……你看看其中牵涉的问题。
39:08 Q:If we have to look for them all it takes time. 问：如果我们必须寻找所有的恐惧，那需要花时间。
39:10 K:No, you don't have to look for them all. Look at the problem, what is involved in this, how we have destroyed - you follow? - inventing all this hocus-pocus. Look, put it round the other way. Action of fear is one thing, and action without the mind burdened with dependency. The mind that is free from all dependency, its action is different. And the mind that is burdened with fear, its action also is different, entirely different. 克：不，你不必寻找所有的恐惧。 看看这个问题，其中涉及到什么， 我们是如何破坏的——你理解吗？—— 通过发明所有这些把戏。 从不同角度转着看。 恐惧的行为是一回事， 而没有被依赖所累的头脑 的行动是另外一回事。 头脑摆脱了所有的依赖， 它的行动是不同的。 而受恐惧重压的头脑， 它的行为也是不一样的，完全不一样。
40:34 Q:Would you mind explaining where dependency comes into this, sir? Because there are fears that have nothing to do with dependency. 问：你能不能解释一下依赖在什么情况下会插手进来，先生？ 因为有些恐惧跟依赖是毫无关系的。
40:42 K:Yes, sir. Is there fear which is not in some form or another dependent? Self-preservation, which is enlightened intelligence, not fear, physical survival. Dependency - I depend on you or something psychologically. I depend because there is the sense of vast inward nakedness, of which I'm afraid. I depend on ideas and cleverness because - you know, that's another form of dependence. Where there is dependency, where there is duality, me depending on something, there must be fear, obviously. 克：好的，先生。 有什么恐惧不是这种或那种形式的依赖吗？ 自我保护，是明智之举， 那不是恐惧，是身体的生存需要。 依赖 ——我在心理上依赖于你或某个东西。 我依赖是因为有一种我害怕的 内心巨大的赤裸感。 我依赖思想和聪明，因为 ——你知道，这是另一种形式的依赖—— 哪里存在依赖，哪里就存在二元性， 我依赖于某个东西 显而易见就必定存在恐惧。
42:09 Q:If I have cancer and I feel pain next month, is that dependency? Because I know that people die with great pain, and I think this is coming my way. Is that dependency? 问：如果我得了癌症，下个月我感到疼痛，这是依赖吗？ 因为我知道有人会在极度的疼痛中死去， 我想我也会这样。这是依赖吗？
42:22 K:Isn't it, subtle form? 克：难道不是吗，以一种微妙的方式？
42:29 Q:It could be dependency on some idea. 问：它可能是对某种观念的依赖。
42:31 Q:The doctor says, 'You're for it.'

K:You're for it. Then if I'm not afraid, I say, 'All right, sir, take it out.' 		问：医生说“你必定会受苦”。

克：你必定会受苦。 然后如果我不害怕的话，我说，“好吧，先生，把它除掉。”
42:38 Q:Pain is very...

K:Which means what? Look at it. Go back. Look at it, the whole thing - memory of health, the time when I had no pain and now I have pain, and the idea that I might have pain for the next ten years, as long as I live. 		问：疼痛很……

克：那是什么意思呢？ 看看它。返回去。 看看整个事情——对健康的记忆， 我没有疼痛的时光，而现在我疼痛， 还有那个“我可能会在余下来的十年内疼痛不已， 只要我还活着”的想法。
43:09 Q:Does it not mean that I must give up all hope of saving myself psychologically in any way whatsoever? 问：这不就是说，我必须从心理层面上完全放弃 以任何方式拯救自己的希望吗？
43:20 K:I should think so. Now... 克：我认为是这样的。
43:26 Q:In any case, this inquiry takes time, sir, so we can't even go into the question of whether fear means dependency, because all this is time. What are we going to do about fear, understanding that time is out? 那么 问：在任何情况下，这种探究都需要时间，先生， 因此我们甚至都无法探讨“恐惧是否意味着依赖”这个问题， 因为这些都是时间。 在懂得了时间需要排除在外的情况下，我们如何处理恐惧呢？
43:40 K:Sir, because our minds are so conditioned that we don't see at a glance the whole structure and let it go, and therefore one has to examine the structure. The examination of the structure is not the structure. The description isn't the thing described. And we are playing with that all the time. And we have to make all that clear so that the mind become sharp enough to remain with that fact of fear, so that it doesn't escape at all. 克：先生，由于我们的头脑是如此深受制约， 以致于我们无法一眼看见整个结构从而抛开它， 因而一个人必须去研究那个结构。 对结构的研究并非结构本身。 对事物的描述并非事物本身。 但我们一直在以这种方式进行游戏。 因而我们必须明了这一切， 以使头脑足够锐利，足以面对恐惧的事实， 以致于它完全不再逃避。
44:24 Q:But, sir, aren't we examining with the same tool, which is old? 问：但是，先生，难道我们不是在用同样一个旧的工具进行研究吗？
44:29 K:Naturally. Are you examining - now wait a minute, sir, look at something - are you examining or observing? No, no, this is very important. 克：当然。 你是在分析 ——先等一会儿，先生，看一个东西—— 你是在分析还是在观察？ 不，不，这非常重要。
44:44 Q:If by observation then you mean...

K:No, wait, look at it. Are you observing the phenomena, the structure, the nature - just observing? Or are you examining? The two things are different, aren't they? At least I... They are different, for me at least. I observe the tree, I don't examine it. I observe the tree and see all the movement of the breeze, and the leaves and, you know, the beauty of it - I observe. 		问：如果是观察，那你的意思是……

克：不，等一下，看着它。 你是不是在观察那个现象、 那个结构、那个本质——只是观察？ 或者你是在研究？ 这两个是不一样的，不是吗？至少我 至少对我来说，它们是不同的。 我观察那棵树，没有对它进行研究。 我观察那棵树，看到微风的吹动， 叶子的舞动，还有，你知道，它的美——我观察。
45:24 Q:So then in observation is there no accumulation? 问：因此在观察中，就没有积累？
45:28 K:That's what we are - yes, of course not. So, please, sir, follow it. Are we examining or observing? 克：那是我们实际的样子——是的，当然没有。 所以，先生，请跟上。我们是在研究还是在观察呢？
45:37 Q:You examine something that's sick, but you observe something that's alive. 问：你研究某个病态的事物， 而你观察某个活着的事物。
45:45 K:Moving, living, like a river that's moving, you're observing. You're on the bank and the water is going by - you're observing. Now here, what are we doing, observing or examining? 克：运动着，活跃着，就像运动的河流，你在观察。 你在岸上，河水流过——你在观察。 此时此刻，我们在做什么，观察还是研究？
46:01 Q:Excuse me, sir, but the statement there - can't you observe something that's sick also? 问：请原谅，先生，但你说过 ——难道你不能也观察某个病态的东西吗？
46:06 Q:Of course you can. 问：你当然可以。
46:08 K:Don't let's beat round that for the moment. What are we doing, sir? Are we examining or observing? 克：让我们暂时不要在外围兜圈子。 我们现在在做什么，先生？我们是在研究还是在观察？
46:20 Q:It seems to me we are examining and we should be observing. 问：我觉得我们像是在研究，而我们应当观察。
46:23 K:Not seems to you, sir - what are you doing? Here we have described this whole thing, examined it, explored it, analysed it, tore it to pieces, in different ways, each contributing his bit. At the end of it, are we observing this, what we have examined, or are you still examining? Which means discovering more causes, more explanations, more descriptions, more opinions, more… the knowledge of the specialists, and so on, so on, so on. We can do that indefinitely. Now, can we stop all that and observe? Now, this observation is instantaneous, isn't it? I don't know... No, sir. Therefore there is no time. I mean, if I go back to my childhood, why I'm afraid, because my mother put me on a different pot from the old pot [laughter] - there is no end to that kind of game. So, here, after examining very, very - you know - simply and very clearly - now am I observing? And therefore my observation is completely attentive. There is no distraction, there is no perversion, no translation, no interpretation, no seeking, nothing but absolute attention to observe. And in that state, when there is complete observation that way, is there fear? Then you say, 'Now how am I to maintain this attention? I can do it for the moment, but when I go out, it's back, I'm lost.' Now see the game we play with ourselves. When I leave, I become inattentive. Right? Then I say to myself, 'How am I to make myself attentive? What discipline, what foolishness?' So I'm back again. So, at the moment of inattention, observe inattention, not try to change it into something else. I don't know if you're meeting all this. And as one cannot possibly be so completely attentive all the time, but the moment there is a challenge which awakens fear, you are there - I don't know - your whole attention there. Therefore be inattentive and know you're inattentive. I don't know if you're following this. 克：不是“你觉得”，先生——你在做什么？ 我们这里描述了整个事情，研究了它， 探讨了它，分析了它，把它扯成了碎片， 通过不同的方式，每个人都贡献了一点儿。 最终，我们有没有在观察这个，我们所研究的对象， 或是你仍然在研究？ 也就是说在找出更多的理由、更多的解释， 更多的描述、更多的意见、更多的 专业知识，等等，等等，等等。 我们能这样无休止地做下去。 那么，我们能停下这一切来观察吗？ 而这个观察是即刻进行的，不是吗？ 我不知道……不，先生。 所以不存在时间。 我的意思是，如果我追溯我的童年，我为什么害怕， 因为我母亲从一个旧盆里 将我放在另外一个盆里【笑声】 ——这种游戏没有终点。 因此，在这里——你知道—— 在非常非常简明而清晰地研究之后 ——现在我在观察吗？ 因而我的观察是全神贯注的。 没有分心、没有歪曲、没有诠释、 没有解释、没有寻求， 除了全神贯注地观察，什么都没有。 而在那种状态中，当有了那种方式的完全的观察， 还存在恐惧吗？ 然后你说，“我如何保持这种注意力？ 我这一刻可以做到， 但当我走出去，它又回来了，我又迷失了。” 现在看看我们同自己玩的这个游戏， 当我离开时，我又变得漫不经心。 对吧？ 然后我对自己说，“我如何才能让自己变得全神贯注呢？ 要用什么戒律、什么愚蠢的把戏？” 因此我又回到了老路子上。 那么，在漫不经心的时刻，观察漫不经心， 不试着把它变成其他什么东西。 我不知道你们有没有明白所有这些。 而由于一个人不可能一直全神贯注， 但当挑战唤醒恐惧的那一刻，你在那里 ——我不知道——你全部的注意力在那里。 因此，漫不经心，并知道你漫不经心。 我不知道你们是否理解这点。
50:55 Q:Are you saying to observe whatever is going on with oneself without trying to change it, without trying to make it any different? 问：你是说，观察自身发生的任何事情， 不试图去改变它，不试图让它有任何不同吗？
51:09 K:Obviously, obviously, obviously. 克：显然如此，显然如此。
51:13 Q:Sir, in a previous talk, you mentioned the very nature of the mind itself, how it demands security, for example. Is it not also so that the mind cannot be occupied with two things at the same time and therefore while it is attentive that is where it is occupied? The mind cannot be in fear and attentive simultaneously. Is that right?

K:No, sir, not quite. No. No, sir, if I may….

Q:Yes. 		问：先生，在之前的谈话中，你提到 头脑自身的本质， 比如，它多么需要安全。 难道不是因为它需要安全， 以致于头脑不能同时被两件事情占据， 因此它关注的时候它就被占据了吗？ 头脑不能同时既恐惧又全神贯注的。 对吗？

克：不，先生，不太对。 不，不，先生，请原谅……

问：好的。
51:51 K:We have examined the nature of fear, what happens when there is fear, how we postpone, how we run away, how we get more and more entangled in things which sustain fear. By examining all that, the mind has become alert, and then it says, 'Now, I'll observe now. I'm going to observe, not analyse anymore, examine anymore.' And when the mind which has examined, observed, gone in, you know, explored, it becomes extraordinarily sensitive, doesn't it, and therefore very intelligent. And intelligence is this observation. And as the mind cannot be awake twenty-four hours of the day, it has to sleep sometime - let it sleep, but know it is sleeping. Not say, 'I must sleep. I must change it to this.' You know, sir, at the end of this hour, is fear with you? [Laughs] 克：我们考察了恐惧的性质， 当恐惧存在时会发生什么， 我们如何拖延，如何逃跑， 我们如何变得越来越纠结于 滋生恐惧的事情上。 通过考察所有这些， 头脑变得警觉， 然后它说， “那么，我现在要观察，我要去观察， 不再分析，不再研究。” 当头脑已经审查过、观察过、 深入过了，你知道，探索过了， 它会变得极其敏锐，不是吗， 因而非常有智慧。 而智慧就是这种观察。 因为头脑无法全天二十四小时都保持清醒， 它有时需要睡眠—— 那让它睡觉就是，但知道它在睡觉。 而不要说“我必须睡觉，我必须把它变成这样。” 你知道，先生，过了这一个小时之后，恐惧还伴随着你吗？【笑】
53:59 Q:You said that sleeping is escaping? Is that what you said? 问：你说睡眠是逃避？那是你说的意思吗？
54:09 K:No, sir. No, sir, I didn't... Sleeping is a most marvellous thing, but we won't go into that. Sir, most of us are inattentive. And because we are inattentive all the escape and the strengthening of fear comes - because we are inattentive. The speed of attention is to examine and observe. Or in the very process of examination, observe. As you are examining, observe. I don't know if you... 克：不，先生，不，先生，我没有说 睡眠是一件极为神奇的事情，但我们不准备讨论这个。 先生，我们大多数人都是漫不经心的。 而由于我们漫不经心， 所有的逃避和对恐惧的强化都出现了 ——就因为我们漫不经心。 注意力的壮大就是去探究和观察。 或者说，正是在探究的过程中，观察。 当你在探究时，观察。我不知道你是否
55:08 Q:We are observing. I mean, we sense we are fearful. We observe. Now, our whole feeling and behaviour is fear. We see we are fearful of losing something or being… [inaudible] - we observe that. We are there, we're standing our ground, we're in it and observing it. Then the very observation is the ending of the fear? 问：我们就在观察。我的意思是，我们感觉到我们恐惧。 我们观察。 现在，我们整个的感觉和行为都是恐惧。 我们发现我们害怕失去什么东西或……【无法听清】 ——我们观察那些。 我们就在那里，立足于自己的背景中，我们身处其中并观察它。 那么，这种观察恰恰就是恐惧的结束吗？
55:46 K:Yes, sir, but you... it all depends how you observe. 克：是的，先生，但你……这完全取决于你如何观察。
55:50 Q:Not critically...

K:No, no, no, no. Ah, that's where the key is. If you observe with dull eyes, there is nothing to observe. But if you observe with the understanding that comes with the whole examination, exploration, then your eyes are clear to observe. You know, I was going to say something here which - I don't know if you want to go into it - about sleep. Would it interest you to go into it? 		问：不带评判地……

克：不，不，不。 啊，这正是关键所在。 如果你用迟钝的双眼去观察，那就没什么要观察的。 但如果你用伴随着整体的研究和探索 而产生的理解去观察， 那么你的眼睛就可以清晰地观察。 你知道，这里我要说点儿关于睡眠的事情 ——我不知道你们是否想深入探讨它—— 它能引起你们探究的兴趣吗？
56:36 T:Can we change our tape with the change of subject? Yes, sir? 技术人员：因为话题变了，我们可以换一下录像带吗？ 好吗，先生？
56:47 Q:If you have attention, tremendous attention to this fear and you are attentive, after you might say - I don't want to use the word 'time' but if you continually observe, pay tremendous attention to this, does not - it's like automatic after a while, it's like when you learn how to... 问：如果你拥有注意力，对这个恐惧有非同寻常的关注， 你是全神贯注的， 之后，你会说——我不想用“时间”这个词， 但如果你持续地观察， 对此给予巨大的注意力 ——片刻之后它看起来就像是自动的，像是当你学会了怎样去
57:16 K:No, sir, no, sir, don't reduce it to a mechanical thing. It isn't a routine. It isn't something that... like a trained monkey. No, sir, it's much more subtle and beautiful than merely making it mechanical. 克：不，先生，不，先生，不要把它降格为一件机械的事情。 它不是例行公事。 它不是……像一只训练过的猴子。 不，先生，它远远要更加巧妙和美丽， 而不是仅仅把它变得机械。
57:39 Q:Isn't it still within the ego? The attentiveness still blocks us in that. I'm attentive, I'm very alert and attentive at all times, but I'm still functioning. 问：它难道不还在自我里面吗？ 关注仍然在其中阻碍着我们。 我很注意，我一直非常机警，全神贯注， 但“我”仍然在发挥作用。
57:59 K:Therefore we must find out what we mean by attentive. I mean, an egocentric person is also very attentive, for his own benefits, for his own - you know. But we're talking of a different kind of attention. Sir, what do we mean by sleep? What is sleep? Apart from the physical relaxation, tiredness, going to bed, having eight hours, or nine hours, or five hours of sleep - what is sleep? Please, sir, let's share this together, don't let me just sit here and talk about it. Let's go at it together. 克：因此我们必须弄清楚我们说的关注的意思。 我指的是，一个自我中心的人也非常专注， 为了他自己的利益，为了他自己的——你知道的。 但我们说的是另一种注意力。 先生，我们说的“睡眠”是什么意思呢？ 睡眠是什么呢？ 除了身体的放松， 疲倦，上床休息， 睡八、九个小时，或五个小时 ——什么是睡眠呢？ 拜托，先生，我们一起来分享， 不要只让我一个人坐在这儿谈论。 我们一起来看这个问题。
59:15 Q:Sir, the cleansing process of washing the brain cells - that's what Shakespeare said about it. 问：先生，清洗脑细胞的净化过程 ——这是莎士比亚说的。
59:31 K:Sir, suppose - unfortunately you read about all these things, I don't - you have never read a book, you don't know a thing about anything, and you're starting. What is sleep? 克：先生，假设——很不幸你读过所有这些东西，我没有 ——假设你从未读过什么书，什么也不知道， 你刚刚开始。 什么是睡眠呢？
59:49 Q:I can't keep awake so I sleep. I'm tired.

K:Yes, sir, tired. 		问：我无法保持清醒，所以我睡觉。 我累了。

克：是的，先生，累了。
59:54 Q:Sleep is what you spoke about yesterday, sir. The order and the emptiness that you spoke about yesterday. 问: 睡眠是你昨天说过的事情，先生。 你昨天还说到了秩序和空虚。
1:00:02 K:Yes, sir?

Q:Is the same as sleep. 		克：是吗，先生？

问：睡眠也是同样的？
1:00:06 K:Not quite.

Q:It is silence, which is silence... 		克：不太一样。

问：它是宁静，那是宁静
1:00:08 K:We're going to find out, sir, don't let's bring in yet... I want to start as though… for the first time I want to enquire into this. 克：我们会弄清楚的，先生，现在不忙下结论 我想开始，就好像 我是第一次想要探究这个问题。
1:00:17 Q:Living for today was too much for me so I need to sleep. 问：今天的生活让我受够了，我需要睡觉。
1:00:20 K:Yes, that is, all the battle, all the noise, all the bustle, going to the office, quarrels, insults and, you know, all that's going on, and on, and on. The body and the brain cells get tired and inevitably they must rest. That's sleep, that's what we... All right, is there any other sleep? 克：是的，所有的争斗，所有的噪音，所有的忙乱， 去办公室工作，争吵，辱骂，以及，你知道的， 这些都在不停地进行。 身体和大脑细胞都累了，它们必须休息，这不可避免。 这就是睡眠，这是我们 好的，还有别的什么睡眠吗？
1:00:48 Q:I'm not there when I sleep. 问：睡觉的时候，“我”不在那里。
1:00:50 K:Ah, wait a minute, sir, don't say that. How do you know? On the contrary, when you dream you are there. 克：啊，等一等，先生，不要这样说。 你是怎么知道的呢？ 相反，当你做梦的时候，你就在那里。
1:01:07 Q:There's asleep and there's attention. 问：睡眠和注意力都在那里。
1:01:10 K:No, sir, go into it, sir. Sleep - what does it mean? Do we sleep during the day? Not go to bed, I mean. 克：不，先生，深入下去。睡眠——它是什么意思？ 我们白天的时候睡觉吗？ 我的意思不是上床睡觉。
1:01:31 Q:When you're inattentive, you're somewhat asleep. 问：当你不是全神贯注的时候，你某种程度上就是在睡觉。
1:01:33 K:No, sir. Do we sleep during the day? The mind is quiet, tired, the brain cells have been active and say, 'Please, I must be quiet' - you know - 'relax, rest, sleep.' Or is it a perpetual movement, perpetual movement in which there is an occasional sleep? You follow what I mean? The brain and the mind are going all the time, working, working, working, working, responding, challenging, protecting - you follow? - frightened, aggressive, working, working, working. And in the movement of that, the body gets exhausted, the brain cells are weary and say, 'Please, I must go to bed now.' Right? But the brain cells and the whole of that is still going on. I should have thought sleep meant the end of that movement, at least for a period. The body says, 'I've had enough, I'm tired out,' goes to bed, but the brain goes on, at a minor key but still goes on - dreams, you know, restlessness, all the rest of it. Now, it would be reasonable to say the mind, the brain and the nervous system is keeping going, going, going all the time, and it is only when the brain and the mind are completely quiet there is sleep. I don't know... 克：不，先生。我们白天睡觉吗？ 头脑安静，疲劳， 大脑细胞之前一直活跃着，然后说， “拜托，我需要安静”——你知道——“需要休息、放松、睡眠。” 或者说它一直在运动， 不停歇的运动， 在那期间偶尔出现睡眠？ 你理解我的意思吗？ 大脑和意识一直在不停地运作着， 不停地工作、工作再工作， 作出反应、挑战、保护 ——你理解吗？——被吓坏了，好斗， 工作，工作，工作。 在这样的运作中，身体变得精疲力竭， 脑细胞疲劳了，说，“拜托，现在我必须休息。” 对吗？ 但脑细胞和这样的过程还在继续。 我认为，睡眠意味着这样的过程停止下来， 至少是一段时间内停止。 身体说“我受够了，累死了”，上床睡觉， 但大脑还在继续，以低调的方式，但仍然继续工作 ——做梦，你知道，躁动不安，诸如此类。 那么，合理的说法是，头脑、大脑 和神经系统一直在持续不断地工作， 只有当大脑和头脑完全安静下来时， 才存在睡眠。我不知道
1:04:06 Q:Are you're saying then that we don't really sleep as long as we're dreaming? 问：那么你是说 只要我们在做梦我们就不是在真正睡眠吗？
1:04:10 K:No, sir. No, I'm not saying anything. [Laughs] We're sharing together, sir. I'm not saying anything - I'm not your guru. So, the mind, the brain and the nervous organism apparently is in constant movement - right? - even though the body says: leave me alone for a while - but it still goes on inside. The brain is working, the mind... I don't know if you have noticed it, before you go to bed, if one is awake a little bit, you go over the day, don't you? You say, 'I should have done this, I should have done...' - you know, it tries to put some order. Watch it, sir. It tries to put some order. And the brain needs order and therefore is going to create order while you're asleep - which is a form of dream. I don't know if you... So, the brain itself says, 'Please, give me order. Don't perpetually keep in disorder, movement, movement.' I don't know if you have experimented with all this. So at the end of the day, consciously one tries to put some kind of order. No? Hasn't it happened? You've gone over the day and say, 'I should have done this, I shouldn't have done that, it should have been put this way, I should have written the letter that way' - you know, we go through all this. That is to bring about consciously order before going to sleep. And if you don't do it the brain is going to do it. And when you wake up next morning, you have a little more order, which becomes disorder by all the noise... So, see from this an extraordinary thing takes place. The brain demands order. It is going to get it during the day or during the sleep. It must have order. Right, sir? Now, if during the day there is complete order - follow it, sir, try it, do it, you'll see great fun out of this - complete order, which means no effort - you follow? - order. 克：不，先生。不，我什么也没说。【笑】 我们是在一起分享，先生。 我并不是在下任何论断——我不是你的上师。 所以，很明显头脑、大脑和神经系统 一直在活动——对吗？—— 即便身体说： 让我自己待一会儿——但它内部还在继续活动。 大脑在工作，头脑 不知你有没有注意到，在上床之前， 如果你还有些清醒的话， 你会回顾这一天，不是吗？ 你说，“我应该做到这个，我应该做到……” ——你知道，它试着理出条理。 看，先生。它试着整理出某些秩序。 而大脑需要秩序， 因此在你睡着的时候它试着建立秩序 ——这是梦的一种形式。 我不知你们是否 因此，大脑自身说，“请给我秩序。 不要一直这样失序，不停地活动，活动。” 不知道你们有没有试验过这些。 因此在一天结束时， 你试着有意识地理出某种秩序。 不是吗？难道没发生过吗？ 你回顾这一天，然后说“我该做这个， 我不该做那个的，那个又该这样做， 那封信我应该那样写” ——你知道，我们将这些整个过一遍。 这是在你睡觉之前，进行有意识的条理化。 如果你不这样做，大脑就会做。 当第二天你醒来时，你拥有了更多一点儿的秩序， 但又被一天的喧嚣给打乱了 所以，从这里就可以看到一件非凡的事情发生了。 大脑需要秩序。 它在白天或在睡觉期间要获得秩序。 它必须有秩序，对吗，先生？ 那么，如果白天拥有绝对的秩序 ——请跟上，先生，试着这样做，你会看到这非常有趣 ——完全的秩序，意味着没有努力——你理解吗？——秩序。
1:07:31 Q:Silence.

K:Yes. I don't want to use that... 		问：宁静。

克：是，我不想用那个
1:07:34 Q:But the silence can only come if there's order, otherwise... 问：但那种宁静只有当存在秩序时才会到来，否则
1:07:37 K:I don't want to use it. 克：我不想用那个词。
1:07:38 Q:The continuation of the disorder is the noise which stops the silence. 问：失序的继续就是打破宁静的噪音。
1:07:41 K:So, silence, order - all right - during the day, then you sleep. What happens? Right, sirs? Right? 克：因此——好吧——白天有宁静、秩序，然后你入睡。 然后会发生什么呢？ 对吗，先生？对吗？
1:07:59 Q:There must be complete rest. 问：肯定会有完全的休息。
1:08:06 K:Complete rest. 克：完全的休息。
1:08:07 Q:No images that fill the mind. 问：没有充满头脑的意象。
1:08:15 K:Now look, sir - complete rest. A silly mind can be completely at rest, but it'll still remain a silly mind. I don't know if you're meeting my... Order, silence is one of the most difficult things. If during the day that doesn't come about, the brain cells say: please, I must have order. You have a problem, mathematical or psychological problem. You worry, worry for days and days, fuss around, look at it, and the brain has been working at it. It gets very tired, and during the sleep something takes place and the next morning you wake up and say, 'By Jove, I see it very clearly.' It has solved it. Right? Hasn't it? How? How does this happen? It's so simple, sir, there's no mystery about it. During the day you're worried, worried like dog with a bone, and at the end of the day the brain says: I've had enough, tired. There is a moment of complete relaxation, rest. Then at that moment you see things differently. Now… Shall we go on with this? Please, if you don't share it, there's no fun in this. 克：来看，先生——完全的休息。 愚钝的头脑也能处于完全休息的状态， 但它仍然是愚钝的头脑。 我不知道你们是否理解我的 秩序、宁静是最困难的事情之一。 如果这些白天时没有出现，脑细胞就会说： 拜托，我需要秩序。 你有个难题，数学上的或心理上的难题。 你焦虑，连日来一直都在担忧，晕头转向，看着它， 并且大脑在对它进行处理。 它变得疲劳，而在睡眠期间有件事情发生了， 第二天早晨你醒来以后说， “老天，我完全明白了。” 问题解决了。 对吗？难道不是这样吗？ 怎么回事？这是怎么发生的呢？ 这很简单，先生们，没什么奥秘可言。 白天你就像个咬着骨头不放的狗，一直焦虑，担忧， 在这一天结束时，大脑说：我受够了，累了。 有一刻出现了彻底的放松和休息。 在这一刻你采用了不同的方式看待事情。 现在……我们继续谈这个吗？ 拜托，如果你们不一起分享，这就没什么好玩儿的。
1:10:17 Q:At night you're not making the effort. The effort in the daytime… [inaudible] but at night you're not making the effort so you can get order. 问：晚上，你不再作出努力。 白天的努力……【无法听清】 但晚上你不再作出努力，因此你能获得秩序。
1:10:26 K:Yes. Therefore, sir, you are... we are saying the same thing. During the day effort, contradiction produces disorder. At night there is a certain relaxation which brings about order. Which again is destroyed the next day. And so this game goes on, and on, and on, and on. Now, during the day there is order, no effort, all the rest of it. I don't know if you do it. If you can do it you will see what happens. Then the brain goes to bed, goes to sleep. What happens? Must it have dreams anymore? 克：是的。所以，先生，你在……我们在说同样的事情。 白天时，努力、对立产生了失序。 在夜间，一定程度的放松带来了秩序。 第二天秩序又被打破， 于是这个游戏一遍又一遍地进行。 那么，在白天时就拥有秩序，没有努力，以及诸如此类的一切。 我不知道你有没有这么做。 如果你能做到，你将看到会发生什么。 之后大脑上床，进入睡眠。 会发生什么呢？ 它还会做任何梦吗？
1:11:24 Q:No.

K:Don't say no. This is guesswork. 		问：不会。

克：不要说不会。这是在猜。
1:11:34 Q:The mind works without anything controlling it at all. 问：头脑在完全没有任何控制的情况下工作。
1:11:37 K:Does it work at all? 克：它究竟有没有在工作呢？
1:11:40 Q:Just on its own action.

K:No, sir, you don't even... 		问：仅仅是基于它自身的行动。

克： 不，先生，你甚至没有
1:11:43 Q:I'm not expressing what I've been trying to say, but it's like things have become very clear, very quiet, and this is not on any action of anybody making it quiet. There is no person controlling it or making the mind... 问：我没有表达出我要说的意思， 但这就好像事情变得非常清晰、非常安静， 而这不是任何人的任何行为让它安静的。 没有人去控制它或使头脑
1:11:59 K:So what does that mean, sir? 克：那这意味着什么呢，先生？
1:12:02 Q:Things would become very clear, it seems. 问：似乎事物会变得很清晰。
1:12:06 K:During the day you have done it. 克：白天时候你就做到了。
1:12:10 Q:During the day?

K:Yes, during the day you have done all that. You are no longer a slave to propaganda. You follow? You're no longer - you know, all that we have discussed. All during the day you have brought about... mind has brought about clear order, silence, no contradiction in itself during the day, by watching, listening - you follow? - attentive during the day. Then at night when it goes to sleep, what happens? The mind is completely at rest, isn't it? The brain cells are washed and made clean. Right? Then what happens? 		问：白天？

克： 是的， 白天时你就完全做到了那一切。 你不再是宣传的奴隶。你理解吗？ 你不再是——你知道，我们讨论过的那一切。 整个白天时你带来了 头脑带来了清晰的秩序、宁静， 通过观察、聆听，整个白天自身中没有冲突 ——你理解吗？——整个白天是全然关注的。 接下来在晚上，当它入睡时，会发生什么呢？ 头脑完全处于休息状态，不是吗？ 大脑细胞被涤清，变得清洁，对吗？ 接下来会发生什么呢？
1:12:56 Q:Can you remain alert in your sleep? 问：你会在睡眠中保持警觉吗？
1:13:00 K:That's what I'm trying to get at. The mind then is awake, not asleep. I don't know if you... Play with it, sir! That is real attention, which operates during the day. Get it? So sleep, ordinary sleep is inattention and that inattention must produce more chaos in sleep, contradiction, dreams - you follow? - which is expressed during the daytime. The daytime carried over again through sleep. Now when there is attention during daytime, in the sense we are using the word 'attention,' then sleep is complete attention. Right? I don't know... Then sleep is a state of heightened awakening… heightened - what is the word? 克：那就是我想说的。 那时头脑将保持清醒，而非睡着。 我不知你们是否……玩味一下，先生！ 这是真正的关注，它在白天运作。 明白了吗？ 因此睡眠，普通的睡眠是漫不经心， 而这样的漫不经心会在睡眠中产生 更多的混乱、对立、梦境 ——你理解吗？——它们在白天表现出来。 白天通过睡眠得到了延续。 那么当白天有全然的注意， 在我们用“注意”这个词所表达的意义上， 那时的睡眠就是全然的关注。 对吗？我不知道 那么睡眠就是一种更高的觉醒状态 更高的——那个词是什么？
1:14:32 Q:Awareness. 问：觉察。
1:14:34 Q:Wakefulness.

K:Wakefulness. And therefore that wakeful state in sleep can touch things which no... during the day it cannot touch. I wonder if you're getting all this. 		问：警醒。

克：警醒。 因此，睡眠中这样一种警醒的状态 可以接触到一些 在白天无法接触到的东西。 我想知道你们是否完全明白了这点。
1:15:04 Q:Are you saying, Krishnaji, that if the brain doesn't have to deal with the residue of the daytime it is then free, as it were... 问：你是说，克里希那吉，如果大脑不必处理 白天残留下来的问题，那么它就自由了，就好像
1:15:13 K:That's right. 克：对。
1:15:14 Q:...to be open on some other level or in some other way? 问：……在其他层面或以其他方式开放吗？
1:15:20 K:That's right. You see, you know, shall I go on? Does all this interest you all this? You see, mystery, we invent a mystery. Right? You follow? And all the mystery of the gods and, you know, fairy tales, and all that is a form of mystery in a life that is completely disorderly. And therefore that mystery is an escape. I don't know if you are... Now, when the mind has put order during the day, has order, the beauty of order, the feeling of order, and silence, and no effort, then when it sleeps there is this strange attention which is without motive, without compulsion, without any contradiction, without any duality - you follow? - inattention, attention - it is completely attentive while it's asleep. 克：对。你看到了，你了解了，我可以继续下去吗？ 所有这些让你们感兴趣吗？ 你看，奥秘，我们发明了一个奥秘。 对吗？ 你明白吗？ 而所有关于上帝的奥秘，以及，你知道的，神话， 所有这些都是完全失序的生活中的 一种形式的奥秘。 因此那种奥秘就是一种逃避。 我不知道你们是否 那么，当头脑在白天建立了秩序，拥有了秩序， 有了秩序的美、对秩序的感受和宁静，而没有任何努力， 那么当它入睡时，就会有这种奇异的注意力， 没有动机，没有强制， 没有任何对立，没有任何二元性 ——你理解吗？——不注意、注意—— 睡眠时，它是全神贯注的。
1:16:34 Q:What is the mind attending to while it is asleep? 问：睡眠时头脑会关注什么呢？
1:16:38 K:It is not attending to anything. [Laughter] Ah, no, sir, you don't see the beauty of it. Then like water, sir - water is water. Put it into any vase, into anything, it still remains water. The same thing with the mind. We have so destroyed it. Now, go further into it. In that attentive sleepful state, [laughs] the mind is uncontaminated, is in a state of complete innocence, in the sense of a mind that is not being able to be hurt. I don't know if you... No, no, it is very important to see this, because innocency is that. The word 'innocent' means 'that which cannot be hurt.' 克：它不去关注任何东西。【笑声】 啊，不，先生，你没看到它的美。 就像水，先生——水就是水。 把它装进任何容器、装进任何东西里，它还是水。 头脑也是一样的。我们如此严重地破坏了它。 现在，更深入一些探讨它。 在这样一种充满注意力的睡眠状态中，【笑】 头脑是未被沾染的， 处在完全的纯真状态， 也就是说头脑无法被伤害。 我不知道你们是否 不，不，看到这个很重要，因为纯真就是那样的状态。 “纯真”这个词意味着“无法被伤害”。
1:18:02 Q:Which does not know. 问：它不知道。
1:18:04 K:Does not know hurt. During the daytime the mind is either resisting not to be hurt or says, 'I am not hurt.' It's still doing all that and therefore its order is still very limited. I don't know if you're following all this. And there in sleep, attention is not attentive of something or about something - it is completely awake. Now in - shall I go on? Do you want to? - in that state there is meditation. Is all this Greek?

Q:No. 		克：不知道伤害。 白天时，头脑要么在抗拒受到伤害， 要么说“我没受伤。”它仍然在做那些事， 所以它的秩序仍然是非常局限的。 我不知道你们是否理解了所有这些。 而在睡眠时，注意力并不是注意到某个东西 或关注某个东西——它是完全清醒的。 那么——我可以继续吗？你们想继续吗？—— 在那样一种状态下，就会有冥想。 我说的都是希腊语吗？

问：不是。
1:19:03 K:I don't know, why not? Why isn't it? [Laughter] No, sir, because this is terribly serious, this. You follow? 克：我不知道，为什么不是呢？【笑声】 不，先生，因为这非常严肃，这些。你明白吗？
1:19:21 Q:It sounds like fun. Can you have it as fun while being serious? 问：这听起来很有趣。你能在严肃的时候感觉到它很有趣吗？
1:19:26 K:It's fun, sir, this is the greatest joy in life. All the rest - going to cinema, sex and everything else, becomes secondary. [Laughter] Because this, you see, you touch something which is untouchable by a mind that is observing itself as it were in a mirror. There is nothing to observe. Sir, to discover that… 克：这很有趣，先生，这是生活中最大的喜悦。 所有剩下的——看电影、性及其他的任何事情 都是次要的。【笑声】 因为这个，你看到，你接触到了一些 无法接触的东西， 通过一个观察自身的头脑看到了这些， 就像它在镜子面前一样。 没有任何要观察的东西。 先生，去发现那个
1:20:10 Q:Is it that in the day your mind has an identity and at night it has not? 问：是不是白天你的头脑有某种身份而晚上没有？
1:20:15 K:Yes, during the day there is the 'me' which is trying to put order in the disorder, which it has created, therefore its order is still disorder. Until that is put in order, in the sense of order which is not put by... brought about by thought but by observation - which we went into, all that - then there is, when that takes place during the waking hours - you know, order, not a fraction of disorder - which means no effort at all at any level at any time - and therefore contradiction and all the rest of it. So when the mind has... when there is order during... in the wakeful hours, and when the body, when there is sleep, the mind then is attentive. Because it is so empty it is attentive, and in that attention it can touch, move, or something which here it cannot do. Therefore sleep is important. I wonder if I'm... 克：是的，白天时，有一个“我” 试图在它制造的失序中建立秩序， 因而它的秩序仍然是失序。 直到建立起秩序， 那种秩序不是通过 思想而是通过观察建立起来的 ——所有这些我们都探讨过—— 当这些事情发生在醒着的时候，就有了秩序 ——你知道，秩序，没有任何失序—— 也就意味着任何时候、在任何程度上都完全没有努力 ——因而也没有冲突以及诸如此类的一切。 因此当头脑 当醒着的时候就有了秩序， 那么当身体， 当睡觉时，头脑于是处于关注状态。 因为它是如此空无，所以它全神贯注， 而在这样一个关注状态中，它能接触、 行动，或做一些它此时无法做的事情。 所以睡眠也很重要。不知我是否
1:21:50 Q:You touched on mystery. Could you go on with that? 问：你提到了奥秘。你能继续谈一下吗？
1:21:56 K:Mystery. This is a mystery, sir. What are you talking about? [Laughter] 克：奥秘。这就是一个奥秘，先生。 你还要谈什么呢？【笑声】
1:22:00 Q:There was something else... 问：还有其他
1:22:01 K:This is the greatest mystery. 克：这是最大的奥秘。
1:22:15 Q:What then is the difference between the empty mind in sleep and the empty mind in wakefulness? 问：睡眠时空着和清醒时空着的头脑 有什么区别呢？
1:22:23 K:Sir, have you ever closed your eyes and sat very quiet, or lay very quiet, having nothing to look at, not even your thought? Have you? The mind looking at itself without any movement of thought. You know, all this implies, sir, it isn't a game, it isn't an entertainment, it's a tremendous discipline, this. Not discipline of conformity, suppression, obedience, somebody tell you to do this, but in itself there is tremendous watchfulness which brings its own order both physical and psychological. And without that just to, you know, play around with all the other stuff has no meaning. 克：先生，你是否曾经闭上眼睛，很安静地坐着， 或者安静地躺着， 不看任何东西，甚至也不看你的想法？ 有过吗？头脑看着自己， 没有任何思想的活动。 你知道，先生，所有这些都意味着， 这不是个游戏，也不是娱乐， 这是一种非凡的纪律。 不是出于服从、压制或命令的纪律， 不是有人告诉你这么做， 而是那纪律本身就有非凡的警觉， 它能从身心两个方面 带来自身的秩序。 你知道，没有那个的话， 仅仅在其他事情上兜圈子没有任何意义。
1:23:47 Q:Can the attentiveness of the night that you're describing give us a guide for the attentiveness of the day? 问：你所描述的夜晚的注意 会指引我们达到白天的关注吗？
1:23:54 K:Yes, sir. I don't know, sir, if you know, functioning from a centre and functioning without a centre. One is creative, one is not. What is the time, sirs? 克：是的，先生。 先生，我不知道你是不是了解从一个中心出发运作 和没有中心的运作。 一个是创造性的，一个则不是。 什么时间了，先生们？
1:24:38 Q:Twenty-five to one, sir. 问：差二十五分一点钟，先生。
1:24:41 K:Isn't it time enough? Because one could go on talking about this. It's really quite... I can't tell you how extraordinarily fascinating it is, and therefore tremendous joy in this, which is nothing to do with pleasure. My God, yes - nothing to do with pleasure. 克：时间够长了，不是吗？ 因为我可以继续谈论这些。 这真的非常 我无法告诉你它有多么迷人， 以及其中有多么巨大的喜悦， 那与快感毫无关系。 我的天，是的——与快感无关。
1:25:34 Basta? 够了吗？