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NY83CDS - 记忆，思想和连续性的幻觉
与大卫·西恩伯格的谈话，
纽约，美国，
1983年4月14日



0:19 David Shainberg: Ok Krishnaji, the question I came up with is this: What is the power or the intensity that illusions have such immediacy? In other words, why is it that illusion and what thought creates has such power and such immediacy? That is question one, and then somewhere along the line: what can a person do if, let's say, if I or if you see the immediacy in my illusions and you see the quality of my illusions, what can a person do for another person who is caught up in their illusions? Those are two questions. 大卫·西恩伯格：克里希那吉，我的问题是这样： 幻觉具有 如此强烈的紧迫感， 那是一种什么样的影响力或者紧张感？ 换句话说， 为什么幻觉或者思想制造的东西 有这么大的影响力和紧迫感？ 这是第一个问题，这样接着问下去： 假如有人，比如我或者是你 看到了我 幻觉中的紧迫感，看到了我幻觉的特点，他能做什么， 对于陷在幻觉中的人， 他能替他们做些什么？ 就是这两个问题。
1:19 Krishnamurti: First of all, what do you mean by illusion? 克里希那穆提：首先，你说的幻觉是什么意思？
1:23 DS: Well, when I use the word illusion I am going from discussions we have had before where we talked about the fact that thought creates a reality. 大卫：嗯，我使用幻觉这个词， 是从我们以前的讨论出发， 我们谈过思想制造现实这个事实。
1:35 K: Thought creates illusions. 克：思想制造幻觉。
1:38 DS: And so therefore is illusion since it is making it up. And it has such immediacy. We all invest our thoughts with such intense needs. We have invested in security. I mean, what is that, this immediacy in illusion or thought? 大卫：所以这就是幻觉，因为是思想把它拼凑起来的。 而它如此紧迫。 我们都对思想有着非常迫切的需求。 我们迫切需求安全。 我的意思是，幻觉或者 思想中的这种紧迫感是怎么回事？
2:02 K: When you use the word immediacy does it mean the urge to fulfil, the urge to do something? I don't quite understand when you use the word immediacy, what you mean by that. 克：你用紧迫感这个词，是指想要实现、 想要做什么的冲动吗？ 我不太明白你说的紧迫感， 那是什么意思呢？
2:21 DS: I am using the word immediacy in the sense of a reality. Let's say this, take it at two levels: if I imagine myself falling off a wall, I will jump. So that thought and that imagination has immediacy, an intensity. 大卫：我是从现实角度使用紧迫感这个词的。 这么说吧，比如在二楼： 如果我想象自己从墙上掉下去， 我会猛的一跳。 所以，思想和想象具有一种紧迫感，一种紧张感。
2:53 K: Could we express it differently? 克：我们换一种说法好吗？
2:57 DS: Sure, go ahead. 大卫：当然可以，继续说。
2:59 K: I am not getting the meaning of what you are talking about. 克：我没明白你是什么意思。
3:03 DS: Well, I am really saying that we have thoughts that we invest with importance. 大卫：其实我是说 我们给思想赋予了重要性。
3:10 K: Yes. Let's stick to that. 克：好。咱们围绕这个说吧。
3:12 DS: Now, what makes us invest it with such importance? In other words, I am really referring back to my work as a doctor where a patient comes in and he will say, terribly depressed if somebody died, terribly depressed if their lover doesn't show up, terribly depressed if they lose a job. Those are thoughts which have importance but for this person it is as if it is the whole life has collapsed. That is what I mean by immediacy – urgency. 大卫：那么，是什么让我们赋予思想这种重要性？ 换句话说， 我其实是指我自己的医生工作， 病人来向我诉苦， 有人去世了，他极度沮丧， 情人没如约而至，他特别失落， 工作没了，他垂头丧气。 那些思想固然有其重要性， 可是这个人却感觉好像整个天都塌下来了。 我说的紧迫感就是这个意思 ——急迫。
3:57 K: After all, it is the urge of desire to fulfil. 克：归根结底，它是渴望实现的冲动。
4:03 DS: I am not getting you there. 大卫：我不是这个意思。
4:09 K: I am not getting your meaning at all. 克：我完全不懂你的意思。
4:12 DS: Well, let me try another way. We talk a lot about what thought does. 大卫：好吧，我换个说法。 关于思想的活动，我们谈了很多。
4:17 K: Yes. We said that thought is limited. Thought, whatever it does, whether in the technological world or in the psychological world, is limited. 克：嗯。 我们说思想是局限的。 思想，无论它做什么，不管是在技术领域 还是在心理领域，都是局限的。
4:33 DS: Exactly. 大卫：完全正确。
4:35 K: I mean, a person who is concerned about himself all day long, his whole attitude towards life and towards the world is very, very, very small. 克：就是说，一个人要是整天只关心他自己， 他整个的生活态度，对世界的看法 就会极其狭隘。
4:49 DS: Right. Now, if thought is limited, but actually thought begins to seem like it is unlimited. 大卫：对。那么，如果思想是局限的， 可实际上，咋一看，思想好像是不受限制的。
5:00 K: That is just an idea. That is an illusion. 克：那不过是个观念，是个幻觉。
5:03 DS: That is an illusion but that actually happens. 大卫：虽说那是幻觉，可确实发生了。
5:05 K: So what is your question then?

DS: So what makes that happen? In other words, what makes thought appear so unlimited? And we invest it with such unlimited virtues. 		克：那么你的问题是什么呢？

大卫：那是由什么造成的？ 换句话说，思想看起来好像这么不受限制，是什么造成的？ 我们把思想看得无所不能。
5:19 K: Who does this? 克：谁是这么看的？
5:21 DS: Everyone in this world that I know. Like yesterday in our discussion, the man says he is getting better because he can take a vacation, so in a way he has invested his thought. You see what I am getting at?

K: No. 		大卫：我认识的人都这样。 就像昨天我们讨论里说的， 那个男子，他说因为可以休个假，所以他就好起来了， 在某种程度上他给思想赋予了重要性。 你明白我的意思了吗？

克：没有。
5:43 DS: You still don't see. 大卫：你还没明白。
5:50 K: Would you mind changing the words? Not invest – move away from this. 克：你换个说法好吗？ 不用赋予这个词。
5:57 DS: All right. We will move away. We will try another way. We think what we think is important. Keep it at that. 大卫：没问题。不用这个词。咱们换个说法。 我们认为我们的思想很重要。 我们围绕这个讨论。
6:08 K: What we think is important, which is, our prejudice. 克：我们的思想很重要，这是我们的偏见。
6:15 DS: Our ideas. 大卫：我们的观念。
6:16 K: Our ideas, our ideologies, our experience. We think that is important.

DS: Exactly. Now you are getting it. 		克：我们的观念、意识形态，我们的经验。 我们认为很重要。

大卫：正是这样。现在你明白了。
6:24 K: Yes, now we are getting it. 克：是的，现在我们明白了。
6:25 DS: Now, what is that? 大卫：那么，那是怎么回事？
6:28 K: Not – what is that – why have they become important? 克：不是——那是怎么回事—— 为什么思想变得重要起来了？
6:37 DS: But they start out important. 大卫：可是思想是从一开始就显得很重要的啊。
6:41 K: I have an experience, suppose, or I come to some definite conclusion. 克：假设我有一个经验， 或者我得出什么确定的结论。
6:49 DS: Alright. 大卫：嗯。
6:50 K: I have thought a great deal about it, read about it, talked to people, and I have come to a conclusion that is final. 克：我曾经对此冥思苦想、 曾经阅读、讨论， 然后，我得出最后的结论。
7:03 DS: Right. 大卫：嗯。
7:07 K: In that finality there is a certain sense of – at last I have understood. This is what I must do or not do, and proceed from there. 克：在这个结论里， 有某种——我终于明白了——的感觉。 我必须或者绝不能这么做， 我应该以此为出发点。
7:26 DS: Right. 大卫：对。
7:28 K: Now, what is the question? Put it from there. 克：那么，问题是什么呢？根据那个情况来问。
7:31 DS: From there the question is: how did it get to be that you think that it is important and that it is final? 大卫：根据那个情况来问的话，问题是： 你怎么会认为它很重要， 而且它是结论呢？
7:43 K: Because it has happened to me and I have seen all the implications of it, all the implications of an accident, I have reasoned it out and I say, this is so. But the difficulty is you come along and say it is not so, then I hold on to my conclusion. 克：因为它发生在我身上了， 我看到了它的全部含义， 看到了一场事故的全部含义。 我推理把它弄明白了，于是我说，就是这么回事。 但是困难在于，你过来说，不是这么回事， 而我则坚持己见。
8:16 DS: Because I say it is not. You mean it is simply in reaction? 大卫：因为我说不是这么回事。你是说那只是反应而已？
8:19 K: No, you say – It is not. Your conclusion is wrong. Unless I am willing to listen to you, examine it, then I will change it, but if I am not willing to listen to you, examine it, I won't change, I will say, that is what I think. 克：不是，你说——不是这么回事。你的结论是错误的。 除非我愿意听你讲， 考察我的结论， 然后我会改变看法。 但是，如果我不愿去听你的意见，不愿去考察我的结论， 我就不会改变看法，我会说，我就是这么想的。
8:42 DS: Yes, but before you already thought it was important, what you thought. 大卫：是这样，但是在你已经认为它很重要之前， 你想了什么？
8:46 K: Yes, because it is happened to me. 克：那是因为这件事发生在我身上了。
8:48 DS: So it is me that is the issue, because it happened to me. So then you have invested me with importance? 大卫：所以，“我”才是问题，因为事情发生在“我”的身上。 所以，你就对“我”投入了重视。
8:56 K: Yes, me becomes the importance. 克：是的，“我”受到了重视。
8:58 DS: Why? 大卫：为什么？
9:01 K: Your question now is quite different: why human beings all over the world have given importance to the idea of the me. 克：现在你的问题就不一样了： 为什么全世界的人 都重视“我”这个概念？
9:19 DS: Such importance. 大卫：如此的重视。
9:22 K: Tremendous importance. The whole world circles round it. 克：极其重视。 整个世界围着它转。
9:26 DS: Right. And so what does it? 大卫：对。那么这是谁做的呢？
9:30 K: What do you mean, what does it? 克：你是什么意思，这是谁做的？
9:32 DS: I mean, in other words, why? 大卫：换句话说，为什么？
9:35 K: Why do human beings give importance to their own self-centred activity? Right?

DS: That is right. 		克：为什么人类要重视 自我中心的行为？ 对吗？

大卫：对。
9:46 K: Why? Is it because they think they are individuals separate from everybody else, and therefore because they are individuals, it is like building a wall around oneself and not letting any other thing interfere with that centre, and then naturally it becomes important. 克：为什么呢？ 是他们把自己当成了独立于 其他人之外的个体， 而又因为他们是个体， 这就像是给自己筑起了一道围墙， 不让其它东西干扰这个中心， 然后，它自然而然地变得重要了。
10:24 DS: Wait a minute, why naturally? 大卫：等一下，为什么会是自然而然地？
10:27 K: Because that is the only thing I have. 克：因为这是我仅有的东西。
10:30 DS: So having made this wall, I am taking in things that are building me up, so to speak. 大卫：所以，筑起了这道墙， 我就是在把构成“我”的东西搬进来。
10:36 K: And therefore that is the only thing I have left with me. 克：所以，这是我留给自己的唯一的东西。
10:41 DS: Because I have made this – 大卫：因为我把这个——
10:43 K: Not only because of that but because through education, through religion and so on and so on, my brain has been programmed to think I am an individual. And being an individual, I must protect myself against you, against the environment and so on. So in the act of protecting myself, it becomes very important. The act becomes very important. So what you are saying too is that therefore all of these illusions that I build up spring from that. In other words, it is necessary, like getting more evidence. So it is really: why does this happen, this me? 克：不只是这个原因，还有通过教育、 宗教等等， 我的大脑已经被编程了，认为我是一个个体。 而作为个体，我必须保护自己 不受你的伤害，不受环境的伤害等等。 所以，在自我保护的行动中，它变得非常重要。 这种行动变得非常重要。

大卫：所以，你也是这个意思， 我形成的全部幻觉都是从那儿产生的。 换句话说，它是必要的，就像收集更多证据一样。 所以，问题其实是：为什么会出现这个“我”？
11:36 K: I wouldn't put it why, put it around the other way. Why has humanity, human beings all over the world become so terribly self-centred? Would that be a right question?

DS: Yes, that is good. 		克：我不会问为什么会出现这个“我”？ 换个角度来说。 为什么人类、 全世界的人 都极其地自我中心？ 这样问可以吗？

大卫：可以，这么问不错。
12:04 K: Why, sir? From your training, from your analytical point of view as a doctor and psychotherapist and so on, why do you think they have given importance to this self-centred egotistic movement? Which is actually separative movement. Which is divisive movement. Why? 克：为什么，先生？ 从你接受的训练，从你们医生和心理治疗师等 所使用的分析的角度看， 他们为什么重视这种 自我中心的自我主义运动？ 那实际是分裂性的运动。 会导致分歧和不和。 为什么？
12:38 DS: Well, I think that the reason is that thought simply appears in the brain and that thought offers the security of the self, or the me. In other words, it creates the me. 大卫：嗯，我想原因在于 思想就是会出现在大脑当中， 这个思想提供了自我或者是“我”的安全。 换句话说，思想创造了“我”。
12:57 K: I am asking: after having created the me, which is the image I have about myself, why have we given such importance to this? I am asking you.

DS: I know you are, my answer is: I hate to use the word security, but it seems that the me provides a security. Now, there I think is a question: why does the me provide such security, or seem to provide? 		克：我问的是：在创造了“我”， 即关于自己的形象之后， 为什么我们这么看重它？ 我想知道你怎么看。

大卫：我知道你在问我，我的回答是： 我讨厌安全这个词， 不过，看起来似乎是“我”提供了安全。 现在，我觉得有一个问题： 为什么“我”提供 或者似乎提供了这种安全？
13:29 K: Or is it that I am seeking security fundamentally, and the feeling that all my activity must be within the area of my own experience, my own judgement, my own values, my own egotistic movement. 克：还是说，我在寻求根本的安全， 以及那种我所有的活动 都必须处在我自己的经验、 判断、价值观和自我主义运动的 范围之内的感觉。
13:57 DS: Right. But it seems to me you are going backwards there. 大卫：对。 不过你好像又回到原来的地方了。
14:05 K: No, look, let's begin again. Human beings all the world over have built up this illusion that self-centred activity is self-protective, defensive, aggressive, and one lives in that area and I know nothing else. 克：没有，咱们重新开始。 全世界的人 都形成了这种幻觉： 自我中心的行为可以保护自我， 可以防御，可以侵略， 你生活那个范围当中， 除此之外，一概不知。
14:39 DS: But there must be some appeal or something inherent in us as human beings, that this happens. In other words, you can take the young child and it happens so quickly. It is literally like I gave you a shot of heroin and you said, ah, I like it, and you say, I want more of it. And it is as if the happening of the self, the me, is like a shot of heroin, you get a little and it is like it immediately just builds. You are addicted to it. It is really an addiction. Let's look at it as an addiction. 大卫：但是，一定是因为某种东西的吸引力， 或者作为人类，我们骨子里的什么东西，才让这种事情发生的。 换句话说， 在一个小孩儿身上，这种事会立即应验。 简直就像是我给你注射海洛因， 你说，啊，我喜欢这种感觉， 你说我还想要这种感觉。 似乎自我、“我”的产生 就跟注射海洛因似的， 你尝到一点之后，它马上就会形成。 你对它上了瘾。 它真是瘾。咱们可以当它是一种瘾。
15:18 K: What is an addiction?

DS: The me. And the need for security is an addiction. And the me, is like a shot of heroin, which offers that drug. In other words, you are yearning for security. I come along and say to you, look, I am going to shoot you up with a little me – you know what I mean?

K: I understand what you mean. Let's begin again.

DS: Ok, sure. 		克：什么是瘾？

大卫：“我”。 对安全的需求是一种瘾。 而“我”像注射海洛因一样 提供这种药物。 换句话说，你渴望安全， 我走过来对你说， 瞧，我要给你注射一点“我” ——你明白我的意思吗？

克：明白。 咱们重新开始。

大卫：好，没问题。
15:48 K: Why do we seek security? 克：为什么我们寻求安全？
15:51 DS: Because we are insecure. 大卫：因为我们不安全。
15:54 K: Are we insecure?

DS: Yes. 		克：我们不安全吗？

大卫：是的。
15:57 K: Or we imagine we are insecure? You understand my question? I want security, I must have security, physical security: clothes, food and shelter and so on. I must have a job in this rotten society. I must have somewhere where I can be quiet by myself, with my family, with whatever it is. Why have human beings – that is my fundamental question – given importance to the me, to thinking I must protect myself. Because the world is very dangerous. It began probably a million years ago when man began to come into being, he had to protect himself. There were wild animals, everything was chaotic. So, perhaps from there began the origin that I must protect myself – animals do. A deer which is being chased by a leopard, his instinct is to run away. Unfortunately the leopard is quicker and catches him and kills him, and so on. And also the deer escapes sometimes, fortunately. So from there we have inherited this sense of – I must protect myself. And I am asking: is it possible to protect yourself in isolation? After all, the very idea of protecting myself brings about isolation. 克：还是我们想象自己不安全？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 我想要安全。我必须安全， 身体上的安全：衣服、食物和住所等等。 在这个腐败的社会里，我必须有一份工作。 一个人也好，跟家人也好，不管跟什么人在一起， 我必须有个地方安静地生活。 为什么人类——这是我的根本问题—— 重视这个“我”， 认为我必须保护自己。 因为这个世界非常危险。 这种情况可能在一百万年以前 人类产生的时候， 就出现了，他必须保护自己。 那时有野生动物，一切都很混乱。 所以，我必须保护自己的意识 也许就是来源于此——动物就是这样。 一只被豹子追赶的鹿， 他的本能就是逃跑。 不幸的是豹子跑得更快， 捉住他，杀死他，等等。 幸运的是，有时候鹿也会逃脱。 所以我们从那儿继承了这种意识 ——我必须保护自己。 我问的是，通过隔离来保护自己，这可能吗？ 毕竟，恰恰是保护自己这种想法 导致了隔离。
18:07 DS: Right. 大卫：是这样。
18:10 K: Now, is there security in isolation? 克：那么，在隔离里面存在安全吗？
18:14 DS: Well, if the deer runs away, is he seeking it in isolation? 大卫：鹿在逃跑的时候，他是不是在通过隔离来寻求安全呢？
18:20 K: No, poor thing, he just wants to survive. 克：不是的，可怜的东西，他不过是想活命而已。
18:24 DS: Is that possible, that maybe that is one of the things that causes the me, that he just wants to survive? 大卫：它不过是想活命，那会不会 是产生“我”的一个原因？
18:30 K: That is a natural instinct. 克：那是本能。
18:33 DS: But I said maybe the me is – 大卫：“我”可能是——
18:35 K: No – physically, I must survive. 克：不是这样——我的身体必须活着。
18:39 DS: Then we must get confused and think the me is physical survival. 大卫：我们一定是弄乱了，把身体的生存当成“我”了。
18:43 K: No. Physically I need clothes, food and shelter. I must survive. I must have a job and so on, a room and so on. Now, is there psychological survival at all? 克：没有。我的身体需要衣服、食物和住所。我必须活着。 我得有份工作什么的， 有个房间等等。 那么，心理上的活着，有这回事吗？
19:05 DS: No. But I just had a thought. There is no psychological survival. 大卫：没有这回事。不过我刚才有个想法。 不存在心理上的生存。
19:12 K: Why do you say that? I mean, everybody wants to psychologically survive. The me is the psyche.

DS: Right. But in some way it is confused with the body. 		克：你为什么这么说呢？ 所有人都想要在心理上活着。 “我”就是灵魂。

大卫：对。 可是人们有点儿把它跟身体搞混了。
19:32 K: Which is identified. Identification takes place because in identification I put out roots. And having roots I feel secure. 克：认同了身体。 之所以认同 是因为在认同中我就有了根。 有了根，我就会感到安全。
19:51 DS: And you identify with your body. 大卫：于是你认同你的身体。
19:53 K: Which is, my body, my name. 克：即我的身体、我的名字。
19:56 DS: So I am my body, I am my name. 大卫：于是，我就是我的身体，我就是我的名字。
20:00 K: I am what I am doing, and so on.

DS: Exactly. But isn't that similar to what the deer is doing when he is running away? 		克：我就是我的所作所为，等等。

大卫：完全正确。 不过，这就和鹿逃跑时的行为 差不多，不是吗？
20:08 K: No. A deer doesn't think about himself. 克：不一样。鹿不想他自己。
20:12 DS: Exactly. But I am saying that there is a crossover there. 大卫：正是这样。不过我是说在那里存在一处交叉。
20:15 K: There is no thought operating probably in the deer. 克：鹿的脑子里可能没有思想。
20:18 DS: Ok, we will accept that. 大卫：好的，我们接受这一点。
20:21 K: It is just frightened, and runs. And then when we go into this me and identification 克：它只是受了惊吓，然后逃跑。 而当我们调查这个“我”和认同的时候
20:31 K: Then all the trouble begins. 克：麻烦就全都来了。
20:34 DS: But isn't that in a way a sort of a wrong continuity from the deer? You know what I mean?

K: Not quite. 		大卫：可是，在某种程度上， 这是鹿的反应的一种错误的延续，不是吗？ 你明白我的意思吗？

克：不太明白。
20:44 DS: Well, in the sense that you say we have inherited this need for survival from the animal. 大卫：嗯，我是就这个意义说的， 即你说的，我们从动物那里继承了生存的需要。
20:51 K: We have inherited the instinct to survive. 克：我们继承了求生的本能。
20:55 DS: So we have inherited the instinct to survive. 大卫：所以我们继承了求生的本能。
20:58 K: Please, let's admit one thing: it is a natural instinct to survive. 克：咱们承认一个事实好吗： 想要活着是一种本能。
21:03 DS: Exactly. 大卫：完全正确。
21:07 K: Every little cell wants to survive. And to survive, physical necessities I must have – a job and so on. 克：每个小小的细胞都要活着。 为了活着，我必须得有身体的必需品 ——比如工作什么的。
21:21 DS: A lot of people think me is a necessity. 大卫：很多人认为“我”是必要的。
21:27 K: Are you sure what you are saying? 克：你能肯定吗？
21:31 DS: Yes. 大卫：能。
21:33 K: Me is essential? They haven't even examined what is the me. 克：必须得有“我”吗？他们甚至都没想过这个“我”是什么。
21:37 DS: Ah, but they still feel it is essential. 大卫：啊，不过他们还是觉得“我”是必须的。
21:41 K: No sir, they feel in the me there is security, in the psyche, and I cling to the image of myself. 克：不是这样，先生，他们是觉得在“我”里面、 在灵魂里面存在着安全， 于是我执着于我的形象。
21:58 DS: Exactly. 大卫：完全正确。
22:01 K: But we never examine what is the psyche. If there is clinging to something which I call me, it may be an illusion. So we have to examine what is the psyche. Has it any ground on which it can stand firm? Or is it just a movement, a series of movements. I don't know if you are following.

DS: I am following you. 		克：但是我们从没调查过灵魂是什么。 对于我称为“我”的什么东西的执着， 那可能是个幻觉。 所以，我们得调查一下灵魂是什么。 它有什么 牢固的基础吗？ 还是说它只是一种运动， 只是一系列运动。 这些你理解吗？

大卫：我理解。
22:45 K: And these movements, experience and so on, is the me, and I know nothing else. 克：而这些运动、 经验等等，就是“我”， 没有别的。
22:59 DS: Well, one question that comes up there is that in the act of experiencing, as I am looking at it, there is a sense that the me appears in the act of experience. 大卫：嗯，我想起一个问题， 就是在经验过程中， 在我审视它的时候， 有一种“我”出现在经验当中的感觉。
23:13 K: Just a minute. Is that so? I had an experience this morning: a car ran into me. It hurt me, and the pain is registered. The accident, the pain, is recorded in the brain. And I remember it, I will remember it for a month or two. And so I am very careful after that not to be run over, not to be knocked down. The remembrance has a continuity. That continuity is the self. The remembrance. Remembrance of things past, the incidents, the accidents, the pleasures, that memory has a continuity. Memory. And memory then says, I have had this experience, I must be careful. Right?

DS: Right. 		克：稍等一下。 是这样吗？ 今天早上我有过一次遭遇： 我让汽车撞了。 我受伤了， 我记住了疼痛。 大脑记录了这个事故和疼痛。 我记得这次事故， 以后一两个月我还会记着它。 那以后我特别小心，免得被车轧着， 免得被撞倒。 这种记忆 有连续性。 这个连续性就是自我。 记忆。 对过去的事儿， 比如对事件、意外或者快乐的记忆， 这种记忆具有连续性。 记忆。 那么记忆就会说， 我有过这个经验，我必须小心。 对吧？

大卫：对。
24:48 K: So, there is no other factor than the continuity of memory. 克：所以，除了记忆的连续性，没有别的因素。
24:57 DS: Except next time I have an experience, what happens? I add it to that. 大卫：除非下次我又有了一个经验，那会怎样？ 我会增加经验。
25:02 K: Of course, continuous addition or subtraction. Now, is memory, which is actually continuity, what value has that? Apart from a skill – a doctor. You have to have a continuous memory in order to examine me. Right? A series of time, a series of accumulation of knowledge and so on. You are the doctor. So there is only, I am saying, continuity of memory – that is all. Memory is me. There is no separate me from memory, and that gives me security. 克：当然，经验会不断地增加，也会不断地消失。 记忆 实际上就是连续性， 它有什么价值呢？ 除了技能，比如一位医生。 为了给我做检查， 必须有连续的记忆。 对吧？ 一系列时间， 一系列知识的积累等等。 你就是医生。 所以我要说的是，存在的只是记忆的连续性 ——这就是全部。 记忆是“我”。 不存在独立于记忆之外的“我”， 记忆给了我安全。
26:16 DS: What is that?

K: What? 		大卫：那是什么？

克：什么？
26:17 DS: The security you get in that memory. 大卫：你从记忆中得到的安全。
26:21 K: Knowledge. Knowledge of my accident, of my pain or pleasure, the things past. That is, the structure of memory based on experience and knowledge. 克：知识。 关于我遭遇的事故、 痛苦的知识，关于快乐和往事的知识。 就是建立在经验和知识之上的记忆的结构体。
26:40 DS: I see. 大卫：我明白了。
26:46 K: That brings a sense of continuity which is the me. The me is not something separate from memory. So memory is the only thing that continues. 克：这带来了一种连续性的感觉，就是“我”。 “我”不是独立于记忆之外的事物。 所以，记忆是唯一继续存在的东西。
27:03 DS: And that is security.

K: Naturally. No, you see, what has continuity seems to appear to give security. 		大卫：而那就是安全。

克：当然。 不，你看， 具有连续性的东西 看起来像是提供了安全。
27:20 DS: That is the question: what is the appearance? 大卫：就是这个问题：它是怎样表现的？
27:25 K: Memory is the only factor in our lives that has continuity. 克：记忆是我们生活中唯一具有连续性的因素。
27:34 DS: Yes.

K: You understand? And what is memory? 		大卫：对。

克：你理解吗？ 什么是记忆？
27:43 DS: It is the storing, it is the past. 大卫：记忆是存储，是过去。
27:45 K: Things of the past, not of the future. 克：过去的事儿，而不是未来的事儿。
27:49 DS: No, it is only the past. 大卫：对，记忆只是过去。
27:55 K: We are going to discover something extraordinary. That is, the past has continuity, modified, but the past continues. Right?

DS: Right. 		克：我们就要发现一些意想不到的东西。 就是说，过去具有连续性， 虽然经过修改，却还在继续。 对吧？

大卫：对。
28:09 K: So, that which has continuity, though modified, is the only source of security. Anything that breaks up – death, say death, let's take death – that ends that continuity, so I am frightened of it. 克：所以，具有连续性的事物，尽管被修改过， 是安全的唯一来源。 所以，任何会结束的事情 ——死亡， 比如死亡，咱们以死亡为例—— 任何结束这种连续性的事情，都会使我感到害怕。
28:39 DS: Exactly. Anything that interrupts that continuity. 大卫：正是如此。任何打断这种连续性的事情。
28:45 K: So, memory is the centre of the psyche and that memory has continuity and therefore that which has a series of movements, similar movements, I feel safe, it brings a sense of safety, security. So memory brings security. 克：所以，记忆是灵魂的中心， 而记忆具有连续性， 所以，对于那种具有一系列运动、 相似运动的事物， 我感到安心，它带给我安全感。 所以，记忆带来安全。
29:14 DS: Right. 大卫：是这样。
29:16 K: Wait a minute. And is that security? 克：等一下。 可是那是安全吗？
29:23 DS: That is what I was going to ask. I don't know. It is not security, it can't be security. 大卫：我正要问这个问题。 我不清楚。不是安全，不可能是安全。
29:29 K: Just see what we have done: we human beings want continuity and that continuity we find in memory, in remembrance, in the record in the brain. That has continuity. And so there is not only a sense of permanency, and also a great sense of security in memory. Now, what is memory? To remember. To remember to keep to right side of the road in America or in France, but in England it is the left side of the road. To remember the address I have to come to. So memory is something – go on, investigate. See what is happening. Memory is put together by past incidents which are dead, gone. I have lost my brother, my son, they are gone, incinerated or buried – finished. But the memory remains. Memory is not the actual. 克：就看看我们做了些什么： 我们人类想要连续性， 而我们在记忆、 回忆 和大脑的记录中找到这种连续性。 那具有连续性。 而且，不仅有一种永恒的感觉， 还有一种显著的安全感。 那么，什么是记忆？ 去记住。 记住在美国或者法国是右侧通行， 而在英国是左侧通行。 记住我必须去的地方的地址。 所以记忆是某种——咱们继续调查。 看看发生了什么。 记忆是由 死的、逝去的过去事件所拼凑起来的。 我失去了我的兄弟、我的儿子， 他们死了， 或者火化或者埋葬——死了。 但是记忆还在。 记忆不是真实的事物。
31:11 DS: No. The actual is the absence. 大卫：不是的。真实的已经不在了。
31:13 K: Gone. But I have got a photograph of my son on the mantelpiece. I keep on looking at it. The picture is not the brother, son, memory is not the son or the brother. So memory is – what? 克：死了。但是我把儿子的照片摆在壁炉台上。 总去端详它。 相片和兄弟、儿子不是一回事， 记忆和儿子或者兄弟不是一回事。 那么记忆是——什么呢？
31:38 DS: Always going back over.

K: No. I have lost my son or brother, my mother, whatever it is, and there is the picture of them on the mantelpiece to remind me. 		大卫：总是回到过去。

克：不。 我失去了儿子或者兄弟，我的母亲，不论是什么亲人， 他们的照片摆在壁炉台上，使我想起他们。
31:54 DS: To reawaken the memory. 大卫：唤醒记忆。
31:56 K: Yes, I keep on thinking about it. Memory. We will keep to memory, not thought, for the moment. So that memory – that memory represents something that is gone, dead, finished. So memory is not real. I don't know if you follow.

DS: Yes. 		克：对，我一直在想它。记忆。 我们暂且就说记忆，不提思想。 所以记忆 ——记忆代表某种消失的、死去的和结束的东西。 所以，记忆不是真实的。 这些你理解吗？

大卫：理解。
32:26 K: You follow? Memory is not the actual son or the brother. So memory, though it appears to have continuity, it is a dead thing. So I seek security in something dead. Right?

DS: Yes. 		克：你理解？ 记忆和实际的儿子或者兄弟不是一回事。 所以，尽管记忆看上去具有连续性， 其实它是死的。 所以我是在从死的东西里找安全。 对吧？

大卫：对的。
32:56 K: If my son or brother was living, I found security with them. I loved them, they loved me, I felt safe with them, they would protect me, they would see to my old age and so on – I am safe. But they are gone, never to return. 克：我的儿子或兄弟要是活着， 我可以从他们那儿找到安全。 我爱他们，他们爱我， 和他们在一起我感到安全，他们会保护我， 照顾我的晚年，等等——我是安全的。 可是他们死了，再也回不来了。
33:20 K: But the memory of them remains, which is memory of a dead, past thing. So memory, which appears to have continuity, is a dead thing – not the actual living brother and son. 克：可是对他们的记忆， 对死掉的、过去的东西的记忆依然还在。 所以，记忆看起来是连续的， 其实是死的东西 ——和真正活着的兄弟、儿子不是一回事。
33:45 DS: Right. 大卫：对。
33:49 K: So what is thought clinging to? Clinging to something that is dead. To discover I am clinging to something that is gone. So much water under the bridge. So there is no security in memory. But to find that out – we are unwilling to do that. 克：那么，思想在执着什么呢？ 某种死掉的东西。 发现我执着的是死掉的东西。 早已时过境迁的东西。 所以，记忆中没有安全。 但是，我们却不愿把问题弄个水落石出。
34:32 DS: There. What is that unwillingness? 大卫：那么，这种不情愿是怎么回事？
34:38 K: It is habit, tradition. I have been programmed for the last 2000 years to worship a symbol called Jesus, or in India 5 to 10,000 and I am stuck there. 克：是习惯和传统的影响。 在过去的2000年里我被编程 崇拜一个叫做耶稣的符号， 在印度就是5到10，000个符号，而我被困在里面了。
34:52 DS: I think there is more to it, Krishnaji. Let's go into it a little bit further. I have been programmed, but again, if I have been programmed, in some way, I find that something holds it there. 大卫：我觉得这种不情愿包含更多的东西，克里希那吉。 咱们稍微深入一点。 我被编程了，可是， 如果我在某种程度上被编程了， 我还发现是有什么东西在控制它。
35:07 K: What holds it? Just the program.

DS: No, I think it is more. 		克：什么控制它？不过是程序罢了。

大卫：不只是程序，还有别的东西。
35:10 K: Go into it, sir. I have been programmed as a Dutchman – no, we will take a Catholic, because that is much more precise – I have been programmed for 2000 years to be a Roman Catholic, to worship the symbol, the cross, to follow the rituals, to be baptized, to obey the Pope. That is my conditioning. That is, the brain cells have been conditioned to that. 克：咱们来调查一下，先生。 我被按照荷兰人的规范编程了 ——不，我们以天主教徒为例，那更准确些—— 2000年来，我被按照罗马天主教徒的规范编程了， 崇拜符号，十字架，执行仪式， 接受洗礼，遵从教皇。 这是我受到的制约。 大脑细胞已经给制约成那个样子了。
35:49 DS: Yes. 大卫：是这样。
35:51 K: And my son or my grandson and grandson and grandson, I insist they be conditioned that way, because I feel safe in a society which says we are all Catholic. 克：而我的儿子或者孙子， 还有玄孙，等等， 一定也要受这种制约， 因为如果大家全是天主教徒，我在这样的社会里会有安全感。
36:07 DS: Right. 大卫：对。
36:10 K: That program is memory. And when I say I am Catholic, all the 2000 years of memories is there. Right?

DS: Right. 		克：程序就是记忆。 我自称天主教徒的时候， 2000年的记忆全都在那儿了。 是吧？

大卫：是这样。
36:27 K: So I am clinging, holding on, to something that is gone, that has no validity. Jesus may not have existed, but we have invented the original sin and you can't escape from it, only somebody else can save you. I have been programmed to that. 克：所以我执着的，其实是死的、 无效的东西。 也许并没有耶稣这个人， 可是我们发明了原罪一说， 你逃不掉原罪， 只有别人才能拯救你。 程序把我变成了那个样子。
36:50 DS: But you are doing it. 大卫：可是你在这么做。
36:52 K: I am doing it because I am an automatic machine where this is concerned. But in the business world I am not an automatic machine. There I am active, I am changing, I am moving. 克：我这么做是因为，就此而言， 我是一台自动机器。 但在商业世界，我不是自动机器。 在那个领域我有活力，总在变化运动之中。
37:08 DS: You are giving up, you are not operating on memory. But here you are operating with memory. 大卫：在那里你放弃记忆，不按记忆行事。 而在这儿，你根据记忆行事。
37:13 K: Here I am operating on tradition, on a program, on a program which has conditioned the brain cells, that is mechanical. 克：在这儿我依照传统、程序行事， 依照这个限定了脑细胞的程序行事， 这是机械的。
37:28 DS: You are doing it, though.

K: I am mechanical. The computer is mechanical it is doing, it is producing, it tells you what to do. 		大卫：不过你依然在这么做。

克：我是机械的。 计算机是机械的，是它在做， 它在创作，告诉你做什么。
37:38 DS: Is there anything that is making you do it? 大卫：有什么东西在让你这么做？
37:41 K: No. The programming itself is making me do it. 克：没有。是程序本身让我这么做的。
37:45 DS: Simply automatic. I don't know about that. There is something that appeals to you about it. 大卫：就自动的。 我不了解这个。 有什么东西在吸引你这么做。
37:52 K: Just a minute, look at it carefully. I am programmed as a Roman Catholic and you are programmed as a Buddhist – let's assume. Neither of us are – I am not programmed to be Catholic, neither are you a Buddhist, but let's assume I am programmed as a Roman Catholic or I am a Muslim, Islamic cult, and you are Christian, if you prefer. Now, I have been programmed for the last 1400 years to be a Muslim, to read the Koran, to follow it, to go on my knees facing the west. I have been programmed. The program is working. And the working of the program gives me the security of the I. 'I am doing it' – etc. And you are doing the same thing in a different way – going to church every Sunday, genuflecting, obeying the Catholic hierarchy, exactly the same thing in a different pattern. 克：稍等一下，仔细看看。 我被输入了罗马天主教徒的程序， 而你则被输入了佛教徒的程序——咱们假设， 其实我们都没有——我没有输入天主教徒的程序， 你也没输入佛教徒程序， 但是咱们假设，我被输入了罗马天主教徒的程序 或者我是穆斯林，伊斯兰教信徒， 而你是基督徒，如果你愿意。 那么，在过去的1400年里，我被输入了 穆斯林的程序，阅读古兰经，按它说的做， 向西方跪拜。 我已经被编程了。程序在运行。 程序的运行给了我“我”的安全。 “我在这么做”——等等。 你也在做同样的事情，只是方式不同， ——星期日上教堂，跪拜， 服从天主教的等级制度， 模式不同，却完全是一回事。
39:14 DS: Right. 大卫：对。
39:15 K: So, it is the program that is operating, nothing else. 克：所以，起作用的就是程序， 没有别的。
39:28 DS: And if the program is operating, how could anyone not be in that program? 大卫：如果是程序在起作用， 怎样才能不在程序之中。
39:37 K: She comes along or he comes along and says, look what you are doing. 克：她或者他走过来说， 瞧，你在做什么。
39:41 DS: Do you think they can hear? 大卫：你觉得他们会听吗？
39:44 K: Unless they say, sorry, I won't listen to you. You are a heathen, you are an evil person – and shut you up, then of course you can't hear. But there is always, in an intelligent, inquiring mind, there is always a little spark of doubt. 克：除非他们说，对不起，我不想听你说话。 你是异教徒，你是邪恶的人——闭嘴， 那样的话，你当然不会听了。 但是，聪明、好奇的人， 脑子里总会闪出点儿怀疑的火花。
40:04 DS: Right. 大卫：是的。
40:07 K: And that person tells me, look what you are doing. You are merely living on a dead memory which is programmed. Your life is mechanical. Your thinking is mechanical because you are fundamentally living according to a program. Even in the business world it is the same. Right? 克：那个人告诉我，瞧，你在做什么。 你不过是在按照程序里面已经死掉的记忆在生活。 你的生活是机械的。 你的思考是机械的， 因为本质上你是在按照程序生活。 甚至在商业世界里也是一样。 对吧？
40:35 DS: But you know, it is hard for a person to see their own programs. For instance, let's take perhaps a more practical thing, take the business man. The business man is programmed to think in terms of making money. Or take a doctor, he is programmed at such levels as to think of himself as separate from his patient, or he is programmed to think in terms of knowledge. You pass over knowledge, but that whole thing of knowledge itself, in the good places where it works well, gets into other places, into the program. You know what I mean?

K: I understand. But if we both agree, or see the fact that our whole psyche is being programmed – I am talking of psyche for the moment – which is I am a Catholic, I am a Jew, I am an Arab, I am a Hindu, and so on, so on, so on, a communist, which are all ideologies. Right? Ideologies.

DS: Exactly. 		大卫：可是你知道，看到自己的程序是很难的。 咱们举个可能更为实际的例子， 比如说商人。 商人的程序是从挣钱的角度思考问题。 再比如医生，他的程序竟然 让他以为自己和病人是相互独立的， 或者他的程序是从知识的角度思考问题。 你没有提及知识， 知识本身，就整体而言， 在合适的地方运作良好， 但是它跑到别的地方，跑到程序里面去了。 你明白我的意思吗？

克：我明白。 可是如果我们都同意， 或者看到我们整个心灵被编程这个事实—— 目前我在谈论心灵—— 即我是天主教徒，我是犹太教徒， 我是阿拉伯人，我是印度教徒，等等、等等， 或者共产主义者，这些都是意识形态。 对吧？意识形态。

大卫：完全正确。
41:50 K: And the ideologies have been put together by thought: clever thought, crooked thought, irrational thought and so on, it is still thought. Now, that thought has been programmed. 克：意识形态是思想拼凑起来的， 聪明的思想、扭曲的思想、荒谬的思想等等， 那仍然是思想。 那么，这个思想被编程了。
42:10 DS: Sure. And so deeply. 大卫：当然。 而且影响非常深。
42:14 K: Obviously.

DS: I mean, the me itself. 		克：显然如此。

大卫：我的意思是“我”本身。
42:17 K: Sir, after 10,000 years and 5000 years, you can't help being deeply programmed. 克：先生，在10，000年和5,000年之后， 程序深深地写进了你的头脑，这是不可避免的。
42:23 DS: But so deeply in the sense of this me, where we started, if we go back and start over.

K: The program is me. 		大卫：如此之深，不过，这指的是我们开头说的这个“我”， 如果我们返回去，重新开始的话。

克：程序就是“我”。
42:29 DS: Exactly. Now, the program is me and the very act of being me is programmed. 大卫：正是这样。程序就是“我”， 恰恰就是成为“我”的这个行为被编程了。
42:40 K: Yes. 克：是这样。
42:41 DS: But that is a phenomenal thing. 大卫：不过，这实在令人难以置信。
42:43 K: I am acting like a computer according to what I am programmed. 克：我像一台计算机， 按照我的程序的指令行动。
42:52 DS: Well, that is phenomenally difficult to see that. 大卫：嗯，看到这一点实在太困难了。
42:54 K: See the importance of this, how deeply rooted it is. The inheritance, the tradition, the heritage, the genetic, all that is born from the animal and so on, gradually to man, and all that is great experience, knowledge and so on, which is the past, and the brain is living in the past. And the past is the program. 克：看看这一点有多重要， 它的根扎得多深啊。 遗传， 传统， 遗产，基因， 所有来自于动物的东西等等，逐渐地被传给了人类， 所有伟大的经验、知识等等， 这些都属于过去， 大脑就活在过去。 而过去就是程序。
43:39 DS: The very act of living in the past is a program. The act of living in the past is a program, the brain is a program, the me is a program. 大卫：生活在过去这个行为恰恰就是程序。 生活在过去这个行为是程序， 大脑是程序，“我”是程序。
43:48 K: And therefore what does a human being do when he realizes this? That means there is no freedom. You may talk about freedom of will and all – that is nonsense. It is like a machine, but more clever, more subtle, more inventive and so on – the brain – but it is conditioned, it is programmed, and as long as one lives in that area, there is no freedom. It is like a machine that quickly adjusts itself to various factors, impressions and so on and so on, but it is still a brain that has being programmed, that can only think. And the thinking is limited. 克：那么，当一个人认识到这一点时 他该怎么办？ 那意味着没有自由。 你可能会谈论自由的意志等所有那一类东西——那都是胡扯。 它就像一台机器，不过更聪明、更精致、 更有创造力等等——大脑—— 但是它是受制约的，它被编程了， 只要你在那里生活，就不会有自由。 它就像一台机器，对于各种因素、印象等等， 能够快速调整， 但它仍是一个被编程的、 只会思考的大脑。 而思考是受到限制的。
44:50 DS: Yes. It is right in the program. 大卫：是这样。思考就在程序里。
44:53 K: That is all. First of all, to realize that is a bit of a shock to me. The other day we were discussing with some well-known scholar and scientists and so on. The scholar was conditioned by his knowledge. Right? 克：就这些。 首先，认识到这一点让我有点震惊。 有一天，我们和一些著名的学者、 科学家进行讨论。 那位学者受他的知识制约。 对吧？
45:21 K: He has read a great deal, Asiatic philosophy and Western philosophy, religions and so on. He has got tremendous knowledge which has conditioned him. 克：他博览群书。 亚洲哲学和西方哲学， 宗教等等。 他渊博的知识也是他的制约。
45:34 DS: Exactly. 大卫：正是这样。
45:37 K: So, when you say, please, let's put aside all your knowledge about something, let's go into the whole idea of knowledge, how it binds. 克：所以，当你说， 咱们把某些方面的知识全放下吧， 咱们调查一下知识的整个概念， 看看它是如何成为束缚的。
45:51 DS: What did he say?

K: He took some time. He refused. And then he began to quote Bronowski and the others who said, 'Knowledge helps man to ascend.' I mean, this whole concept of knowledge helping man to ascend seems so utterly nonsense to me, because we have had 7000 years of war, which has brought us enormous knowledge killing with a stone, with an arrow, then with a gun and so on, until now we have got the atom bomb. 		大卫：他说什么？

克：他考虑了一会儿。然后拒绝了。 接着他开始引用布罗诺夫斯基和其他人的话： “知识帮助人类升华。” 在我看来， 整个这个知识帮助人类升华的观念 完全就是胡说八道， 因为我们经过7000年的战争， 掌握了大量杀人的知识， 先是用石头、弓箭， 然后用枪支等等， 发展到现在我们有了原子弹。
46:35 DS: Exactly. Yes. We have got increased knowledge. 大卫：的确如此。我们的知识越来越多。
46:38 K: Knowledge. And we will take another 10,000 years adding more and more and more, perhaps we will be able to wipe out the whole earth. 克：知识。 再过一万年，我们 的知识还会更多、更多， 也许我们能把整个地球都给毁掉。
46:49 DS: Well, we will have that much knowledge. 大卫：嗯，我们会有那么多知识。
46:54 K: So the point is, I am programmed, I accept that, suppose I accept it completely. 克：所以，问题在于， 我被编程了，我接受这一点，假设我完全接受这一点。
47:04 DS: Do you accept it?

K: Suppose, I said, for the moment. 		大卫：你接受这一点吗？

克：我是说，暂时假设。
47:08 K: You come along and say, look, my friend, you have no freedom here. You are just a machine. A very clever, intelligent machine. Which you are, the brain is a machine, it can react and all the rest of it. And as long as the brain remains in that area, it is never free. Its energy is limited, its capacity is limited, though technologically you have advanced. 克：你走过来说， 瞧，我的朋友，在这里你是没有自由的。 你不过是一台机器。 一台聪明的智能机器。 你就是机器，你的大脑是机器， 它可以做出反应，等等。 只要大脑待在那个范围里，它就永远都不会自由。 它的能量是有限的， 它的能力是有限的， 尽管技术上你取得了进步。
47:58 DS: Yes. Can we take a look here? I have no freedom. My energy is limited. Now, there is an implication there that I am to think about having more freedom or having more energy. 大卫：是的。我们看一下这个地方好吗？ 我不自由。我的能量是有限的。 那么，这里就有一个暗示， 我要考虑获取更多的自由或者更多的能量。
48:14 K: Wait – when you think of the more it is the same movement. 克：且慢——当你考虑获取更多的时候，这是相同的运动。
48:20 DS: So, it is my perception of my mechanization and my perception of the constriction of my energy that is an issue. Isn't that it?

K: Yes. And not only that is the issue, sir, let's put it down this way: suppose I realize that I am programmed – all of me, biologically as well as psychologically. And you come to me because you have investigated much more, you are a doctor, you have gone into the issue, studied various things, and you say, look my friend, you have no freedom. You are like a very good, subtle machine. In that, because it is automatic, limited, you are creating infinite trouble for yourself, pain for yourself, conflict for yourself, and you have created this society and therefore you and society are creating hell on earth. 		大卫：所以，觉察到我思想的机械， 觉察到我的能量被压制 这才是问题的要害。是不是？

克：是的。 而且不只这个问题，先生， 咱们这样来说吧： 假设我认识到我被编程了 ——我在生理上、心理上全都被编程了。 你到我这儿来，因为你做过更多的调查， 你是医生，研究过这个问题， 做过各种研究， 所以你说，瞧，朋友，你没有自由。 你就像一台出色又精致的机器。 在这种局限当中，因为它是自动和局限的， 你正在给自己造成无尽的麻烦、 无尽的痛苦和冲突， 你造成了这个社会， 所以你和社会正在把地球变成地狱。
49:33 DS: By going around inside of that. 大卫：通过在其内部打转。
49:35 K: In that limitation.

DS: Right. 		克：在这个局限内部。

大卫：对。
49:38 K: You point that out to me. Then I say, please, I see the fact. Help me to break through it. Right?

DS: Right. 		克：你对我指出这一点。 然后我说，拜托，我看到了这个事实。 请帮我突破这个限制吧。 对吧？

大卫：对。
49:52 K: And you say to me, no, I won't help you, because you have to see the truth of this. 克：而你对我说，不行，我不会帮你， 因为你必须看到这件事的真相。
50:02 DS: And your asking me to help you is the system itself. 大卫：你求我帮你就是这个系统自身的反应。
50:05 K: Yes. So you tell me, don't do that, don't ask my help or ask the help of anyone, including God. 克：对。所以，你告诉我 别这么做，不要寻求我 或者其他任何人，包括上帝的帮助。
50:16 DS: Can we stop right there. How is it that when you ask me to help you that that really is just another way to show my conditioning? 大卫：我们在这儿停一下好吗？ 在你请我帮助你的时候， 怎么竟然恰好从另一个方面表明了我的局限呢？
50:24 K: Yes, I have acknowledged.

DS: It is that, because you are making yourself into a thing for me to fix, really. 		克：是的，我已经承认了。

大卫：是因为 你其实是在把你自己作为一个对象，交给我修理。
50:31 K: No, I have acknowledged that I have been programmed, caught in a trap, and I can't get out. I think I can't get out. 克：不是这样，我承认我被编程了， 我掉在陷阱里， 出不来了。 我认为我无法出来。
50:44 DS: So what can I do for you? 大卫：那么，我能帮你什么忙呢？
50:45 K: Therefore, I come to you. You are a doctor, a psychologist, psychotherapist, you are well known, blah, blah, blah. I come to you and I say, please sir, this is my state. I realize that if one lives on a dead thing it becomes narrow, limited, and therefore I am creating conflict not only between me and my wife and society, I live in conflict. 克：于是，我到你那里。 你是医生、心理学家、心理治疗师， 你很有名，什么什么的。 我到你那里说，拜托，先生，我就是这个状态， 我认识到 依靠死的东西过活， 生活就变得狭隘、局限， 所以我不仅在和妻子、 和社会发生冲突， 我就生活在冲突之中。
51:18 DS: Right. 大卫：对。
51:20 K: Help me to understand the nature of memory, the programming, the root of conflict, and show me or help me to get out of this blasted hole. That is what all of us are asking. 克：请帮助我理解记忆的本质， 编程是怎么回事，还有冲突的根源， 请帮我或者告诉我怎么从这个该死的坑里出去吧。 我们都想得到这种帮助。
51:43 DS: Exactly. 大卫：确实如此。
51:44 K: They go to church for that purpose, temples, prayers. Help me, oh God – invented by thought – help me to get out of this. And nobody has helped so far after 10 million years or 5 – nobody has helped me, but I keep on praying somebody will help me, which is insanity – you understand? That is neuroticism. 克：他们就是为了那个目的上教堂， 进寺庙，做祈祷的。 请帮帮我，哦上帝——思想发明的上帝—— 请帮我走出这个困境。 在一千万或者五百万年之后， 到现在没有人帮助过我， 可是我继续祈祷出现什么人来帮助我， 这是发疯——你明白吗？这是神经质。
52:11 DS: Well, what do you think it is, though, what do you think it is about the program that breeds asking for help? 大卫：可是你认为 这个导致我们寻求帮助的 程序是怎么回事？
52:22 K: No, it is not asking for help. When you come along and point out to me the limitation of being programmed, then I begin to look at it. 克：不是寻求帮助是怎么回事。 当你走过来，给我指出 被编程所导致的限制的时候， 我就开始审视它。
52:36 DS: But then you ask me for help.

K: Then I ask you for help. 		大卫：可是然后你向我求助。

克：然后我求你帮助我。
52:39 DS: But that is part of your program to ask me for help. 大卫：可是向我求助是你的程序的一部分。
52:41 K: No, it is not part of my program. 克：不，它不是我程序的一部分。
52:43 DS: No?

K: No. Yes, in a certain way, yes. That is part – but I have moved out of that. I come to you for help – just listen – and you say, that is part of your nasty program. I say yes, quite right, but all the same, let's inquire into it. Please, let's go together. You follow? 		大卫：不是？

克：不是。是的，在某些方面，是的。 那是一部分——而我已经从那里走出来了。 我到你那里求助——听我说—— 你说，它是你那个糟糕的程序的一部分。 我说对，非常正确， 可是还是让我们调查一下。 我们一块儿调查,好吗？你理解吗？
53:07 DS: Yes. So we can talk together. 大卫：理解。这样我们就可以一起讨论。
53:11 K: Together. That means you are not helping me to climb out of the hole. 克：一块儿。 那意味着你不是在帮我爬出这个坑。
53:18 DS: Right. We are in this together. 大卫：对。我们一起待在这里。
53:21 K: Together. Which means what? 克：一起。那意味着什么？
53:25 DS: We are both programmed. 大卫：我们都被编程了。
53:26 K: We both realize we are both programmed, we are in a hole, and by talking over, looking over, investigating, we begin to see there is nobody going to help you. 克：我们都意识到我们都被编程了， 我们在一个坑里， 通过讨论、观察、调查， 我们开始明白没有人会来帮助我。
53:43 DS: Or you. 大卫：或者你。
53:44 K: Nobody is going to help me or you, both of us. What does that mean? I remain with my program. 克：没有人会来帮助我们两个，不论是我还是你。 那意味着什么？ 我和我的程序待在一起。
53:57 DS: We are together in it. 大卫：我们一起待在里面。
53:59 K: We remain, let's put it that way, we remain in the hole. Because I don't know how to get out of it. You don't know either. We remain in the hole. Right? But what has happened when I have not accepted help, I have not looked to anybody – God or... 克：我们留下，咱们这么说吧， 我们留在坑里。 因为我不知道怎么爬出去。 你也不知道。我们留在坑里。对吧？ 可是，当我没有接受帮助， 没有向任何人，包括上帝什么的，求助的时候， 发生了什么？
54:26 DS: Well, but wait a second. I came along and I showed you your program. 大卫：嗯，可是等一下。 我过来并把你的程序指给你看了。
54:33 K: Yes. 克：是的。
54:34 DS: Did I give you help?

K: No. 		大卫：我给你提供帮助了吗？

克：没有。
54:36 DS: I didn't? You didn't see it? 大卫：我没有？你没看到吗？
54:38 K: I didn't see it, but you have shaken me. 克：我没有看到，不过你让我吃了一惊。
54:40 DS: So I helped you? 大卫：那么我给你帮助了吗？
54:42 K: No, you have helped me like a thunderstorm. The thunderstorms give you a lot of... 克：没有，你对我的帮助就像是闪电。 闪电给了你很多…
54:48 DS: I shook you up a little. 大卫：我把你摇醒了一点。
54:50 K: You know, nitrogen to the soil, thunder. 克：你知道，闪电对土壤的固氮作用。
54:55 DS: We have got three minutes. 大卫：我们还有三分钟。
54:58 K: You acted as a thunder, which is a natural event. We happened to meet and we said, look, let's go into this. 克：你的作用就像是闪电，一个自然的事件。 我们碰巧会面了，我们说，瞧，咱们调查一下这个问题。
55:10 DS: Am I out of the program because I could see your program? Am I out of the program? I can see your program, I am still in the program. 大卫：我看到了你的程序，那么我在程序之外吗？ 我在程序之外吗？ 我可以看到你的程序，我依然在程序之内。
55:20 K: Of course, we both are in it. 克：当然，我们都在其中。
55:22 DS: We both are in it. Right. I have shown you your program. 大卫：我们都在其中。对。 我指出了你的程序。
55:26 K: And by talking to me, you have discovered that you are also programmed. 克：通过与我讨论， 你发现自己也被编程了。
55:29 DS: Exactly. Ah, that is quite a discovery. 大卫：确实如此。啊，那可真是个发现。
55:33 K: Of course. Both of us discover it. 克：当然。我们俩都发现了这个情况。
55:38 DS: Not me. I have this insight, or I saw it. 大卫：不是我。我洞察到，或者看到了这个情况。
55:45 K: When I realize I am programmed, the fact, I realize all human beings are programmed. Right? I watch it. It is so. 克：当我意识到我被编程这个事实的时候， 我就意识到全人类都被编程了。 对吧？我观察。情况就是这样。
55:57 DS: All human beings are programmed. 大卫：全人类都被编程了。
55:59 K: Of course. Except those who say, sorry, I have been programmed, I am out. The brain is no longer conditioned. That is quite a long process – not process – that needs tremendous investigation, which is meditation and all that. I won't go into all that. But the fact that memory has continuity and in that, that gives us security. Continuity gives us security. Memory is a dead thing, not a living thing. You can't have a memory about a living thing. So, I am living with dead things. When I live on past memories I am living with death, with things that have gone. And I cling to those memories because it gives me certain comfort, security and so on, but it is like holding onto a dead carcass. So, if I realize that, actually see the truth of it, there is a mutation in the brain cells. 克：当然。除了那些说， 对不起，我被编程了，我出来了。 大脑不再受制约了。 那是一个相当漫长的过程 ——不是过程——那需要做大量的调查， 也就是冥想和所有那些活动。我现在不想谈这些。 但是因为记忆具有连续性这个事实， 记忆给了我们安全。 连续性给了我们安全。 记忆是死的，不是活的东西。 你不会有活着的东西的记忆。 所以，我是在和死的东西一起生活。 依靠过去的记忆过活，我就是和死亡、 死掉的东西生活在一起。 我执着于那些记忆， 因为它给了我某种安慰、安全感等等， 但是这就跟抱着一具死尸一样。 所以，如果我意识到、实际看到这个真相， 大脑细胞会发生突变。
57:24 DS: Yes, and there is a mutation between us as we talk together. 大卫：是这样，在我们一起讨论的时候，我们彼此间有一种突变。
57:28 K: Yes, in the brain cells, and therefore it is possible to be free, to totally climb out of the hole. Finished? I have found something new. 克：是的，脑细胞里面， 于是就有可能获得自由， 彻底从坑里爬出去。 结束了吗？ 我发现了一些新的东西。
57:57 DS: What did you say?

K: I have found something new. 		大卫：你说什么？

克：我发现了一些新的东西。
58:01 DS: Me too. It is like Christmas, right? – presents. 大卫：我也一样。 这就像是圣诞节，对吧？——礼物。
58:11 K: Yes, sir. You see, my brain is very selective, selective memory – very, very selective. All the things that have happened to me, gone. Literally gone. The record remains but not the content of the record. 克：是的，先生。你知道， 我的大脑非常有选择性， 选择性的记忆——十分有选择性。 发生在我身上的一切 都不见了。 真的不见了。 记录还在，但是记录的内容不见了。
58:45 DS: Is it that the content remains but the selective apparatuses...

K: No, the other way around. I am right, you will see it in a minute. You have to have memory to drive a car. All the things they did to me, which was recorded, that record has no depth, no feeling. 		大卫：是不是内容留下 而选择性的设备…

克：不是，应该反过来说。 我没说错，马上你就会明白。 要开车你必须得有记忆。 他们对我做了什么，全都得到记录， 而那个记录没有深度， 没有感觉。
59:19 DS: No stickiness, nothing stuck to it. 大卫：没有粘性，无染无着。
59:22 K: That is too dirty. So, the brain has now, I have noticed, I have gone into... 克：那东西太脏了。 所以大脑已经，我注意到， 我已经调查了…