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OJ72T1 - 什么可以使人类再团结起来?
公开讲座1
欧海,加利福尼亚,美国
1972年4月8日



1:55 Krishnamurti: I don’t know if you have noticed that in a little town like this, or a city or village – I don’t know what you call it – that there are so many little churches, so many different myths, so many different fanciful, religious conceptions, formulas, that divide the people. 克里希那穆提:我不知道你们有没有注意到 在这样的一个小镇,或者一座城市、一个村庄里 ——我不知道你们是怎么称呼它的—— 有如此多的小教堂, 有那么多各式各样的神话, 那么多花巧的宗教理念 和规矩, 它们分裂了人类。
2:28 And it is the same all over the world. Go to any little village, or town, or city in Europe, it is the same. 而这在世界各地都一样。 走入欧洲的任何一个小乡村、小镇或城市, 都是如此。
2:43 Christianity, divided in itself, exotic religions, myths that have gone on for many centuries, that are dying now, and new myths are being formed. 基督教——它本身就是分裂的, 外来的各种宗教, 流传了几个世纪的神话—— 现在正在消亡, 而新的神话又在被编造出来。
3:06 And go to India or Asia, it is the same: all broken up, divided, each individual seeking a particular fancy, myth, a religious concept or a belief or a dogma, according to his own particular temperament, neuroticism, or fanciful, hopeful belief. 走入印度或亚洲,也是一样, 一切都分崩离析、四分五裂, 每个个体都在追求某种幻想、神话、 宗教理念、信仰,或者教条, ——依据他自己的脾气性格、 神经质, 或者充满幻想且满怀希望的信仰而定。
3:51 And when one considers all this, wisely, watchfully, watching all this, one wonders what will bring humanity together. 而当我们去思考这些, 明智地、细心地去观察这一切, 我们就会想知道到底什么会让人类团结在一起。
4:11 Not, obviously, belief. Not, obviously, a particular formula over which we can quarrel, differ, argue dialectically or accept some leader, some guru, some exotic, mythological exportation. 很明显,不是信仰。 很显然,也不是某种准则 ——某种我们可以辩证地去争吵、争执 和争论的准则, 也不是接受某个领袖、 某个古鲁, 某些奇异的、虚幻的东西。
4:51 And when one can see that the world – that is, the human beings – are divided religiously, nationally, politically, economically, and in every way possible, each one almost against another. 而当我们能够看清世界 ——即人类—— 已被宗教、国家所分割 ——在政治上、经济上、 在任何可能的方面, 每个人几乎都在反对其他人。
5:20 There are revolts: black against the white, and the purple against the blue, and so on. 反抗四起: 黑人反抗白人, 红衣主教反对清教徒,诸如此类。
5:30 And when you wonder, looking at all this extraordinary phenomena that's going on in the world, one wonders what will bring man together, what will bring about right relationship between human beings so that we all can live peacefully. 当你想要知道 ——看到这些异常的现象 不断地在世界各地发生—— 我们会想知道什么才能使人类团结, 什么才能带来人与人之间正确的关系, 从而使我们都能过上和平的生活。
6:02 Because it is our earth, not the Christian earth, or the earth of the oil people, or the earth of the businessman, or the earth of the Catholic, Protestant, Wesleyan and God knows what else. 因为地球是我们大家的, 不是基督教徒、 石油大亨、 商人、 天主教或新教徒的地球, 不是卫理公会教徒和天知道其他什么公会教徒的地球。
6:26 And when you look at this: the long hair, the short hair, the hippie and the non-hippie, the businessman, the artist, the priest, the various meditative groups, each asserting their own particular form of meditation path or that their belief or dogma will lead to a particular experience and realisation and so on... 当你看到这些: 长头发的、短头发的, 嬉皮士和非嬉皮士, 商人、 艺术家、 传教士、 各种禅修团体 ——每一个都在宣扬自己独特的冥想之道, 或者声称其信仰或教条能通往某种经验 和了悟等等
7:21 Looking at it, any serious man – I mean by that word a man who is completely committed to the resolution of the problem that divides human beings, and hoping to bring the people together, not belonging to any particular group, committed to any particular action – to such a serious man, what is the answer? 看到这些,任何认真的人 ——我所指的认真的人是完全地投入 去解决那个分裂人类的问题, 希望能够让人们团结起来, 并且不隶属于任何团体, 不委身于任何特定行动的人—— 对这样一个认真的人来说,答案是什么?
8:04 You know, if I may point out, this is not an entertainment. 你们知道——请容我指出—— 这不是一场娱乐。
8:14 This morning, sitting together here, we are not entertaining each other, we are not being amused or intellectually stimulated. 这个早上,一同坐在这里, 我们不是在互相消遣对方, 我们不是在找乐子,或者激荡一下头脑。
8:36 We are, I hope, serious people concerned with a devastating world, with the horrors that are going on in the world: the pollution, the overpopulation, the economic expansion that is going to destroy the world. 我们是认真的人——我希望如此——关心着这个满目疮痍的世界, 以及这世上不断发生着的恐怖事情: 环境污染,人口爆炸, 将会毁灭世界的经济扩张。
9:06 And if you are at all serious – and I deeply hope that you are – not wanting to be entertained, but wanting to find out what is the right action, what to do as a human being living in this terrible world, in this world of tremendous sorrow, destruction, violence, then perhaps, you and I can take a journey into this enormous, complex problem of human existence and its relationship to another. 如果你们真的很认真——我无比希望你们都很认真, 不是想要找乐子, 而是想搞清楚什么是正确的行动, 以及活在这个可怕的世界中,作为人类的一员应该怎么做, 活在这个充满了巨大的悲伤、 毁灭、暴力的世界里,我们该怎么做? 那时,也许你和我就能够一同踏上旅途, 去探讨关于人类生活 以及这种生活与他人的关系这个巨大、复杂的问题了。
10:09 Now, when you look at all this, not from any particular point of view, as an American, as a Catholic, or a Protestant, as a socialist, or a socialite, or belonging to any particular group, as a human being, concerned, not trying to solve it according to a particular concept, formula, but observing this, one sees that thought is responsible for this. 现在,当你去观察这一切 ——不是基于某个特定立场,不是作为一个美国人, 作为一个天主教徒或新教徒, 作为一个社会主义者或社会名流, 或隶属于某个团体, 而是作为人类的一员,去关切这些问题, 不试图根据某个概念或公式去解决它, 而是去观察这些, 我们就会发现思想是这一切的祸首。
10:57 Thought, which has done extraordinary things in this world – technologically, scientifically, economically – thought has produced extraordinary results, the building of a marvellous bridge across a wide river, going to the moon. 思想,在这个世界成就了很多非凡的事 ——在技术上、 科学上、经济上—— 思想创造出了许多非凡的成果, 建造了横跨大江大河的宏伟桥梁, 也飞上了月球。
11:34 And also, thought has done terrible things, all the destructive instruments of war, the dividing of the people. 而同样的,思想也做了许多可怕之事 ——所有具毁灭性的战争武器, 还有分裂了人类。
11:56 So on one hand, you see that thought, the whole machinery of thinking, has produced the extraordinary world of technology, comfort, so-called civilisation, and also, it has brought about terrible results, this division amongst people, nationally, economically, religiously, and so on. 所以一方面,你看到思想 ——整个思考的机制—— 创造出了非凡的技术世界, 舒适的设备、所谓的文明, 而同时,它也带来了可怕的后果 ——人与人之间的分裂, 国与国之间、经济上的、 宗教上的分裂,等等。
12:46 Thought is responsible for the division of man. 思想造成了人类的分裂。
12:59 And there are many who say thought must be killed. 于是有许多人说思想必须被消灭。
13:11 There are many who say, 'Act spontaneously without thought'. 有很多人说,“不带思想地、自发地行动”。
13:25 There are many who say, 'As thought is always conditioned, let us condition that thought better' as the communists, as the latest psychologists, and others. 也有很多人说,“因为思想总是受限的, 就让我们对它更加严格限制吧” ——就像共产主义者一样, 就像最新的心理学家和其他某些人一样。
13:52 That is, thought in its action is responsible for behaviour, whether that behaviour be violent, pleasant, beautiful or ugly. 也就是,思想的活动 需要对我们的行为负责, 不论那行为是暴力的、令人愉快的、 美好的还是丑恶的。
14:20 Thought is responsible for human behaviour. 思想要对人类的行为负责。
14:31 And there are many who are maintaining, who are asserting, controlling, shaping the human mind according to their particular conditioning – the communists, the Mao, and so on – and thereby hope to bring about a right, cooperative action so that the terrible things that we do to each other can come to an end. 同时有许多人 在断言、声称 要依据他们自己特定的局限 来控制、塑造人类的心灵 ——共产党,毛派分子,等等—— 他们期望由此能带来一种正确的、互相合作的行动, 从而使我们对彼此所做的那些可怕之事 可以结束。
15:23 I hope we are all following this. As I said, we are taking a journey together. 我希望我们都跟上了。 正如我说过的,我们在共同进行一次旅程。
15:40 And we are sharing together what we see on the journey. 而我们正在分享我们途中所见的一切。
15:50 And to share together, we must both be intensively aware, not only what is going on in the world outwardly, but also what is going on inwardly. 要分享,我们双方都必须强烈地觉察 ——不只是觉察外在世界所发生的一切, 也包括我们内心所发生的一切。
16:15 Sharing implies that we meet at the same time, at the same level, with the same intensity, otherwise there is no sharing. 分享意味着我们在同一时刻、 同一层面上, 有着同样的热忱, 不然就不存在分享。
16:37 And we are neither disagreeing or agreeing. 而且我们既不是不同意 也不是认同。
16:44 We are neither accepting this formula or that formula, or this opinion or that opinion. 我们既不接受这个准则也不接受那个准则, 不接受这个观点或那个观点。
16:52 Together, we are examining, investigating, exploring the outward phenomena, as well as the inward process of our own existence – they are both important. 我们是一同去检视、去探究、 探索外在的现象, 也探究我们自身存在的内心过程 ——这两方面都很重要。
17:25 And this movement of the inner as well as the outer is what we are going to examine together, share together, and see, if we can, during these two talks – which I doubt very much, but it doesn’t matter – whether we can understand, and therefore resolve, this division that exists between human beings, which is the very cause of all conflict, both outwardly and inwardly. 而这种内在和外在的运动, 就是我们要一起去检视、 分享的东西, 然后看看我们是否能在这两场演讲中 ——虽然我对此很怀疑,但这并不重要—— 我们能不能了解 并因而解决 这种存在于人类之间的分裂, 这种分裂正是一切冲突 ——外在和内在冲突的起因。
18:06 Inwardly, we are fragmented, broken up. Outwardly also. And in exploring and examining what is going on, we must, it seems to me, not only be aware, but also be able to see clearly. 我们的内在四分五裂、支离破碎, 外在也一样。 而在探索和检视这些现象时, 我们必须——我认为—— 不只是觉察, 也必须能够看清真相。
18:43 So we have to understand together, what we mean by observing, seeing the world, outwardly, with all the horrors, with all the beautiful things, the wars, the pollution – outwardly. 所以我们必须一同去了解 我们所指的“观察”、“看”是什么, 去看外在的世界及其所有恐怖之事, 以及所有的美好事物。 去看战争、 污染——这些外在的东西,
19:06 And inwardly, the conflict, the struggle, the constant battle – to see it clearly. 以及内在的东西——那些冲突、 挣扎、持续不断的斗争, 把它们都看得清清楚楚。
19:23 And what does it mean to see clearly, to observe? 那么“看清”、“观察”是什么意思呢?
19:36 I think it is very important to understand that thing, what it means to observe. 我认为了解这一点非常重要 ——什么是“观察”。
19:49 One observes, doesn’t one, through one’s own image that one has built up, either hereditary or personally, according to one’s own particular temperament, idiosyncrasy and so on? 当我们观察时,我们难道不是 通过我们自己已建立的意象去观察的吗 ——那种意象要么是遗传下来的,要么是自己的, 是根据自己本身特定的性格、 特质等等所建立的形象,不是吗?
20:16 That is, when you look at a tree – and there are so many lovely trees here – when you look at those trees, you look through the image you have of that tree. 也就是说,当你去看一棵树 ——这里有那么多美丽的树—— 当你看那些树时, 你是透过你对那棵树持有的意象去看它的。
20:35 You please try it, look at it. You will see that what you observe, you observe the tree through the botanical knowledge you have acquired. 请你们现在去尝试,去看看它, 你会发现你所观察的东西, 你观察那棵树时, 是通过你所获得的植物学知识去观察的。
20:51 You look at that tree, naming it, liking it or disliking it, so you are looking through an image, and not looking at the tree directly. 你观看那棵树时,会命名它, 喜欢它或不喜欢它, 所以你是透过某个意象去观看它的, 而不是直接观察它。
21:20 To observe an outward thing like a tree or the mountain or the bird, or the flight of an eagle, is comparatively easy. 去观察外在的事物, 比如一棵树、一座山,或者一只鸟, 或者翱翔的雄鹰,相对而言要容易些。
21:34 But to observe, to see what's going on inwardly, it becomes much more difficult. 而去观察, 去看我们内心的运作,就变得困难多了。
21:47 Please, as we are talking, do it, not merely listen to a series of words or ideas, and then walk away from it. 在我们讨论时,请你就这么去做, 而不只是听去了一连串的言词或理念, 然后将之抛却脑后。
22:02 But if you actually are experimenting with what is being said now, then you will see how, when you look at yourself as you are, you have not only the images that have been handed to you through tradition, through the past, but also you are looking at yourself through various images that you have created about yourself. 如果你现在就真正去试验我所说的话, 那你就会看到, 当你看着自己真实的样子时, 你不仅持有 传统和过去所传给你的各种意象, 也持有各种 你为自己建立的各种形象。
22:40 So you never observe actually ‘what is’. 所以你实际上从未观察过自己“真实的样子”。
22:47 You're always observing with the eyes of ‘what should be’ or observing through a formula, through a belief, through an ideology, or through various forms of conditioning. 你一直都是用“应该任何”的眼光来进行观察, 或者透过某种准则、 信仰、意识形态来观察, 或者透过各种形式的制约来观察。
23:10 So it becomes extremely difficult to observe oneself actually – to observe actually ‘what is’. 所以如实观察自己, 如实观察“事实”变得极为困难。
23:33 And, as we are going to investigate together this phenomenon of human conflict in division, it becomes extraordinarily important, if you are at all serious, to find out for oneself the act of observation. 而因为我们将要一同去探究 这种人类分裂的冲突现象, 所以有一点变得非常重要, ——如果你们真的很认真的话—— 那就是自己去搞清楚 观察这一行动。
24:02 Because if you observe with your traditional outlook, with your conditioned responses, as a Catholic, as a Protestant, as a God knows what else – the innumerable divisions that each one of us has created – then you are actually not seeing at all, you are seeing the image which you want to see through the image which you have created. 因为如果你的观察是带着传统的观点, 带着你深受制约的各种反应 ——作为一名天主教徒、新教徒或者天知道什么教徒—— 带着我们每个人制造出来的、数不清的分裂, 那么你实际上根本就看不到。 你所见的只是你自己想见到的意象而已 ——透过你自造的意象。
24:40 And such a mind that is trying to observe is incapable of bringing about a radical revolution in itself. 而这样一颗试图去观察的心灵 是无法带来其自身的彻底革命的。
25:00 Because psychological revolution is necessary, far more important than the physical revolution, than the economic revolution, or social revolution. 因为心理的革命是必须的, 远比有形的革命重要得多, 远比经济革命、社会革命重要得多。
25:23 Psychological revolution – a total transformation of the mind and the heart – is necessary because that is the root cause of any outward phenomena and change. 心理革命 ——一种头脑和心灵的彻底转变—— 是必不可少的, 因为它是根源 ——一切外在现象与改变的根源所在。
25:48 If there is no deep, radical change in oneself as a human being, whatever you do outwardly will be conditioned by your inward state. 如果作为一个人,你没有深刻而彻底的转变, 那么无论你外在做什么都会被你的内心状态所制约。
26:07 If you are inwardly confused, dead, conditioned, narrow, shoddy little human being, whatever you do outwardly will produce a shoddy society, a corrupt society. 如果你的内心困惑、死气沉沉、饱受制约、 狭隘,是个卑鄙小人, 那么无论你外在做什么,都会带来一个卑劣的社会, 一个腐败的社会。
26:26 And we give tremendous importance to outward changes – we want outward changes. 而我们都对外在的改变非常重视, ——我们想要外在的改变。
26:38 There must be a total change outwardly, socially, that is fairly obvious: the end of war, the end of poverty, the outward division of human beings into nationalities, into sovereign governments, and so on. 外在上、社会上,必须要有一次彻底的改变, 这是显而易见的: 战争的结束,贫穷的结束, 人类外在分裂成不同的国籍、 不同的主权政府,等等这些的结束。
27:13 Outwardly, there must be a deep, radical change. 外在,我们必须要有一种深刻的、根本的转变。
27:23 Because as the scientists are also saying, if we are going on as we are, expanding economically, polluting the earth, the seas and the air, overpopulation, and so on, in about seventy years we will destroy the earth and ourselves. 因为就像科学家们同样也在提醒我们的: 如果我们继续现状 ——不断进行经济扩张, 污染地球、海洋与空气, 人口爆炸,等等, 那么只需要大约七十年, 我们就将摧毁地球和我们自己。
28:00 So there must be, if you are at all serious and have gone into this very, very deeply, trying to solve this problem, not according to Lenin, Trotsky or Stalin or Mao, or some latest psychologist, but if you are, as a human being, going into this problem deeply, to find out how to resolve this, then you will find, as you see, that there must be in each human being a radical, psychological revolution. 因此我们必须 ——如果你真的很认真,并且非常深入地探讨了这个问题, 努力去解决这个问题, 不是根据列宁、托洛茨基、斯大林或毛泽东, 或某个新出炉的心理学家, 而是身为一个人,去深入地探讨这个问题, 去找出解决它的方法, 那样你就会发现——如你所见—— 每个人的内心都必须要有 一次彻底的心理革命。
28:45 The two, the outward and inward movement, must go together. 这两者——外在与内在的运动必须协调一致。
28:52 And the inward movement is far more important than the outer. I think that’s fairly clear. And to bring about this deep, inward revolution at the very depth of one’s consciousness, one must have the eyes to look – to look at ourselves very clearly. 而内在的运动远比外在的运动重要得多。 我想这相当明显。 而要带来这场深刻的内在革命, 在我们意识的极深处, 我们必须具有慧眼 去清清楚楚地观察自己。
29:39 And you cannot possibly look if you are looking through the eyes of a particular psychologist or a particular formula, if you are a communist, socialist – oh Lord, and all the rest of it – you cannot possibly look. 而你的观察将会变得不可能 ——如果你是以心理学家的观点去看, 或依据某种准则去看, 如果你是一名共产主义者,社会主义者, ——我的天——或者其他的什么主义者, 你就不可能观察了。
30:05 I think again, that is fairly clear and simple. It is only the man who is not committed who is free to look, who is not held by a particular opinion, or a particular knowledge, or a particular experience. 我再次认为,这一点是相当简单明了的。 只有不受任何束缚的人、 自由观察的人, 不陷于任何特定的意见、特定的知识、 或者特定经验的人,
30:30 It is only such a person who can observe actually ‘what is’. 只有这样的人才能真正观察到“真实的样子”。
30:38 And when you observe, thought becomes the central factor. 而当你观察时, 思想变成了核心因素。
30:55 Thought, which is the response of knowledge, experience, memory, and that thought, scientifically, and so on, has created an extraordinary world, and thought also has created the various gods and saviours and myths. 思想,就是知识、经验、记忆的反应。 而这种思想 ,在科学以及其他方面, 已经创造出了一个非凡的世界, 同时思想也创造了 各式各样的神明、救世主和神话。
31:39 You are a Christian because you have been conditioned that way, which is the result of thought being conditioned in a particular culture, according to particular religious dogmas, beliefs, rituals, as in India, as in Asia, they do exactly the same thing. 你是基督教徒因为你一直受到那样的局限, 那是思想被局限的后果, 被局限于某个文化之中 ——遵循某种宗教的教条、信仰、仪式, 正如在印度、在亚洲, 人们也做着一模一样的事。
32:10 Only there it is called Hinduism, Buddhism or Islam, here it is called Christianity. 只是在那里,它被称为印度教、佛教或伊斯兰教, 在这里,它被称为基督教。
32:19 But it is the same phenomenon which divides people. 但那是同样的分裂了人类的现象。
32:30 And where there is division, not only outwardly, but also inwardly, there must be conflict. 而当有了分裂 ——不只是外在,也包括内在, 我们就一定会有冲突。
32:39 Right? Is that clear? Do we go on together from there? Because you know, sirs, in a beautiful valley like this – and it is one of the most beautiful valleys in the world – to live here, and to see this beauty, and to know this beauty will be destroyed by human beings because they want to expand, they want more money, more pleasure, more everything. 对吗?这清楚了吗? 我们要继续一同探讨吗? 如你所知,各位, 在这个美丽的山谷里 ——这是世上最美的山谷之一—— 在这里生活, 观赏它的美, 同时又知道这些美景将被人类摧毁, 因为他们要扩张, 他们要获得更多的钱、更多的愉悦, 更多的一切。
33:41 And the earth is being destroyed by our stupidity, by our greed, by our desire for greater pleasure. 而地球正遭受破坏, 由于我们的愚蠢、我们的贪婪, 由于我们渴望更多愉悦。
34:02 And thought, if it is not very clearly understood, is going to bring about our disaster. 而思想, 如果我们没有非常清楚地了解它, 那么它将给我们带来灾难。
34:18 So, we see what thought is, and how important thought is. 所以,我们要看清思想是什么, 以及它的重要性。
34:28 One cannot possibly exist without thinking. You cannot function normally, easily, without thought. 没有思想,你就无法生存。 你无法正常地、轻松地运作 ——如果没有思想的话。
34:48 To go to your house, to your home, to take the bus, the train, the aeroplane, you must have the capacity to think. 如果你要回自己的屋子、自己的家, 要坐巴士、乘火车或飞机, 你必须要有思维能力。
34:57 So knowledge at one level becomes essentially important, but that very knowledge can be used to create division amongst people. 所以知识在某个层面上变得很重要, 但也是这个知识被用来 制造人类之间的分裂。
35:21 Thought functions naturally, effectively, completely, when the ‘me’, which is another function of thought, intervenes in the practical knowledge. 思想的运作是很自然、 有效和全面的, 而当“我”——也就是思想的另一种活动, 介入实用知识时
35:55 Is this all Greek to you? We are going together? Look sir, we need knowledge of the world, of the seas, of the air, scientific and so on – we need that. 这些对你们来说是不是有点太难懂了? 我们是在一起探究吗? 各位你们看, 我们需要关于这个世界的知识, 关于海洋、关于空气的知识, 科学知识,等等,我们需要这些。
36:19 But also, thought has created the idea of the ‘me’, the ‘me’ who is different from you. 但是,思想也制造了“我”的概念 ——这个有别于你的“我”。
36:38 Thought has divided the world as ‘you’ and ‘me’, ‘we’ and ‘they’. 思想已经把世界分割为“你”和“我”, “我们”和“他们”。
36:51 And when the ‘me’ operates, functions, in the field of knowledge, then it creates mischief. Right? 而当这个“我”在知识的领域里运作时, 它就造成了危害。对不对?
37:09 That is, how is the mind to function efficiently and truly in the field of knowledge, and keep the ‘me’, the ego, the person, the individual, the little entity that's making all the trouble in the world, to keep that entity completely out of operation in the field of knowledge? 也就是说,头脑要如何 正确地、有效地运作 ——在知识的领域里,同时又要让“我”, 这个自我、这个人、这个个体、 这个制造了世上所有麻烦的渺小存在, 要如何让这个东西彻底停止 在知识领域里的运作?
37:52 You've got what I am talking about? Am I making myself clear? You are going, at the end of the talk, I hope, you are going to ask questions, so I’ll go on. 你明白了我所讲的吗? 我讲清楚了吗? 你们将会——我希望在演讲的最后—— 你们将会有机会提问,所以现在我会继续讲下去。
38:09 I do not know, if you have not noticed, how terribly selfish we are, how terribly egocentric our activities are. 我不知道你们是否察觉到 我们是多么的自私, 我们的所作所为是多么的自我中心。
38:34 And unless there is a radical change in this activity, you cannot possibly create a new world. 而除非我们的行动中有一种根本的转变, 否则我们就无法创造一个崭新的世界。
38:48 And therefore, the ideologists have said, as that ‘me’ cannot possibly be changed, let thought, which creates the ‘me’, identify itself with the greater, which is God, which is the State, which is the nationality, which is a particular ideology, so that the ‘me’ doesn’t interfere with action. 所以, 思想家们曾说, 由于那个“我”不可能被改变, 那就让那个制造出“我”的思想, 把它自己与更伟大的事物认同起来, 那个更伟大的事物就是上帝、 就是国家、 就是国籍、 就是某种意识形态, 这样那个“我”就不会再干扰行动。
39:32 So ideologies have become extraordinarily important in order to prevent the particular ‘me’ from acting. 因此意识形态变得极其重要, ——为了阻碍这个“我”运作。
39:47 You’ve understood? The ‘me’ that creates mischief in the world, that is perpetually seeking pleasure, the ‘me’ that's frightened, guilty, frustrated, anxious... 你们明白了吗? 那个制造了世上不幸的“我”, 不停地追求享乐的“我”, 感到害怕、内疚的“我”, 感到沮丧、焦虑的“我”
40:12 And no religion, no society, has solved that problem. 而没有一个宗教, 没有一个社会曾经解决这个问题。
40:22 They have transferred the ‘me’ into heaven, sitting next to God, or being saved, and so on, but the ‘me’ still continues. 它们把“我”转移到天国, 坐在上帝身旁,或者获得救赎,等等, 然而“我”仍然继续运作。
40:36 So they have not solved it, religions, culture or any particular social activity. 所以它们并没有解决这个问题, 宗教、文化、任何社会运动都没有解决。
40:49 They are trying to solve it communistically. They say, 'State is important, not you'. 'Serve the State, serve the people.' And if you don’t, you are either sent to Siberia, sent to mental hospitals, or liquidated. 人们试图通过共产主义解决它。 他们说,“国家重要,你不重要”。 “服务国家,服务人民。” 如果你不这么做,你会被放逐到西伯利亚, 被送入精神病院,或者被清算。
41:15 When the pressure of threat is removed, the ‘me’ will come into operation again. 当那些威胁的压力被解除后, 那个“我”就会重新运作。
41:29 So, when you see all this, see clearly, not with blurred eyes, not hoping to solve it, because then if you can’t solve it, you fall into despair, you get depressed. 所以,当你看到这一切, 看得一清二楚, 不是用模糊的双眼去看, 也不希望解决它, 因为那样,当你无法解决它时,你会陷入绝望之中, 你会感到沮丧。
41:50 But when you see it actually as it is – and I hope we are doing it now – then we are going to find out, ask ourselves the question: how can thought function most efficiently, objectively, all the time without the ‘me’? 但是,当你实事求是地看着它真实的样子时 ——我希望大家现在就在这么做—— 那么我们就会找出答案, 问我们自己这个问题: 思想如何能够 最有效、 最客观地运作, 每时每刻都无“我”地运作呢?
42:31 Can the ‘me’ be totally resolved? 这个“我”是否能完全消除?
42:40 Can the ‘me’ – the ego, the person, the individual who wants to express himself and therefore, unfulfilled, miserable, unhappy, egotistic – can that ‘me’ come to an end? 这个“我”——这个自我、这个人, 这个时时要表现自己 并因此而变得不满、痛苦、不快乐和自私自利的个体—— 这个“我”能不能终结?
43:06 Knowing that human beings throughout the ages have tried in different ways to resolve this question through worship of God, through the identification with a particular ideology, the ‘me’ to be put aside through the family, through a community, through a commune, through a State – we have tried every way. 我们知道无数个世纪以来,人类 尝试过不同的方法来解决这个问题 ——通过膜拜神明, 通过认同于某种意识形态, 通过把“我”置于家庭中、 社会中、公社中、 国家中 ——我们已尝试过一切方法,
43:43 Suppress it, control it, discipline it, destroy it. 去压制它、控制它、 约束它、消灭它。
43:51 Every way we have tried and we have not been able to do it. 每一个方法我们都用过, 但我们仍然无法解决它。
44:01 And in this country, the ‘me’ has become extraordinarily important. 而在这个国家里, 这个“我”已变得极其重要。
44:11 Because if you have observed, in this affluent society, everyone is seeking greater pleasure, more and more pleasure, which is the pursuit of ‘me’. 因为如果你观察过,就会发现在这个富裕的社会里, 每个人都在寻求更大的享乐、 更多的欢愉 ——也就是在追逐“我”。
44:29 And when that pleasure is thwarted, there is violence, anger, frustration. 而当那享乐受到阻挠时, 就会产生暴力、愤怒和挫折。
44:38 And this sense of search for pleasure is spreading right through the world. 这种追求享乐的态度, 正在全世界风行。
44:46 So as we were saying, human beings have tried in every way to dissolve this ‘me’, and they have not succeeded. 所以正如我们所说, 人类已尝试过各式各样的方法去消灭这个“我”, 而他们并没有成功。
44:59 Perhaps, there is another way to come upon this. And we are going to investigate a different approach to this problem. 或许对待这个问题还有另一种方式。 而我们将会去探究 以一种不同的方式去处理这个问题。
45:12 You understand? That is, where there is conflict, there is division – inwardly, outwardly. ——你明白吗?—— 也就是,哪里有冲突,哪里就有分裂 ——外在及内在的分裂。
45:29 Where there is harmony, there is no conflict. 而有和谐的地方就不会有冲突。
45:38 Now, what brings about division, inwardly as well as outwardly? 那么,是什么带来了分裂 ——内在的以及外在的分裂?
45:49 Because if this division can be resolved, conflict comes to an end, surely. 因为如果这分裂可以解决, 那么理所当然,冲突就会终结。
45:57 Division as contradiction, self-contradiction, division that is comparative, comparing oneself with another, and therefore, in that comparison, there is conflict. 分裂就是矛盾,自相矛盾, 分裂就是比较,把自己与他人比较, 因此,在比较之中,就有了冲突。
46:17 You are following all this? Where there is a measurement, which is comparison between me and another, there is division. 你们跟上了吗? 哪里有衡量——衡量就是比较, 比较我与其他人——哪里就有分裂。
46:27 And where there is division, there is conflict. 而有了分裂,就会有冲突。
46:35 That is, when I compare myself with you, you being more intelligent, more bright, more this and that, then there is division in me, and that division becomes aggressive, feels inferior, becomes angry, competitive, in order to be like you, so this division, inwardly, brings about conflict. 也就是说,当我把自己与你作比较时 ——你更聪明、更精明,更这样或那样, 那么我内心就有了分裂, 而那个分裂会变得具有侵略性, 感到不如人, 变得愤怒、 争强好胜,为了能变得和你一样。 因此这内在的分裂,就带来了冲突。
47:14 Now, do you see this? Or do you see it as a verbal description? 现在,你看到这点了吗? 或者你只把它当成口头上的叙述而已?
47:30 You understand my question? Am I making myself clear? Do you see it actually for yourself, without the verbal image which the speaker has created for you, and through that image you see it, or do you see it directly, non-verbally? 你明白我的问题吗? 我有没有把我的意思表达清楚? 你有没有自己很真实地看到这点, 不持有讲话者给你们建立的文字形象 并根据那个形象去看它, 或者你是不是直接看到了它,不着一词?
48:00 If you see it directly, non-verbally, then your action is instantaneous. 如果你直接看到了它,不带任何文字, 那你的行动就是立即的。
48:20 Look sir, if you see a danger, you act instantly, don’t you? 各位请看, 如果你看到了危险, 你会立即行动,对吗?
48:31 If you see a rattler, there is action. That action has been brought about through the conditioning that all rattlers are poisonous, are dangerous. 如果你看到响尾蛇,马上就会跳开。 那行动是经由你所受的制约而产生的 ——那就是所有的响尾蛇都是有毒的, 它们非常危险。
48:46 So your conditioned response is to act instantly in front of danger. Right? 所以你惯性的反应 就是在面临危险时马上行动。对吗?
49:00 And your conditioned response is that the ego, the ‘me’, must fulfil, must act, must divide. 而你那局限的反应就是自我,那个“我”, 它必须得到满足,必须有所行动, 必须去区分。
49:11 That's your conditioned response. The ‘me’ is very important to you, and your whole culture is based on that. 这就是你局限的反应。 这个“我”对你非常重要, 你的整个文化都是基于它的。
49:27 So, you don’t see the danger of your conditioning. 所以,你并没有看到你的局限所带来的危险。
49:37 You see the danger of a snake because of your condition, because thousands of generations have said, ‘Be careful of snakes, they are dangerous.’ And thousands of generations have said the ‘me’ is very important. 你看得到一条蛇的危险, 那是你所受的制约, 因为世世代代的人们都是这样告诉你的, “小心毒蛇, 它们非常危险。” 而过去世世代代的人也说过 “我”很重要。
50:10 But you don’t see the danger of this conditioning as the ‘me’ that’s important. You get it? 然而你没有看到这种局限的危险 ——“我很重要”这个局限,你明白了吗?
50:24 In one direction, the conditioning warns you against danger, and another conditioning says, 'Continue though it is dangerous'. 一方面,那种局限在警告你要抵御危险, 而另一种局限却说,“即使危险也要继续”。
50:42 Is this clear and simple? Now, do you see it? Or do you see it merely as an intellectual theory, as an idea to be accepted, or do you translate what you see according to your fancy, agreeing or disagreeing, or do you see it actually, as a tremendous danger? 这不是很简单明了吗? 那么,你看到这一点了吗? 或者你只是把它当成一个知识理论, 作为一个要加以接受的观念而已, 或者你依据自己的想象去诠释你所见到的, 去赞同或不赞同,还是说你真正看到了 它是一个巨大的危险?
51:22 If you see it as a danger, life becomes extraordinarily simple. 如果你看到它是一种危险, 生活就会变得极其简单。
51:33 Because all our conditioning is based on this, that the mind must be conditioned in order to function in human behaviour properly. 因为我们所有的局限都是建立在它之上的 ——即心灵必须加以限制, 以便人们的行为举止能恰当运作。
52:07 And for generations, mind has been conditioned in the idea that the ‘me’ is all-important. 而世世代代以来, 我们的头脑被局限在这种观念里 ——“我”是最重要的。
52:25 And the mind, being so conditioned, does not see how dangerous it is. 而我们的头脑被这样局限后, 就看不到它是何等的危险。
52:34 You’ve got this? 你们领会这一点了吗?
52:42 Because, as we said, where there is division, there must be conflict. 因为——正如我们曾经说过的—— 哪里有分裂,哪里就有冲突。
52:53 You may tolerate this conflict, you may say, ‘Well, that is human nature to be in conflict.’ And through conflict, through tension, you will produce various forms of literature, And through this tension, this contradiction, what you produce is called creative. 你或许能够容忍这种冲突, 你可能会说,“好吧,人性本就是冲突的”。 而经由冲突,经由紧张, 你就能创作出各类文学作品, 通过这种紧张、 这种矛盾, 你生产出的东西被称为具有创造性。
53:34 And is it creative? Or is it the result of a destructive mind? 它是创造性的吗? 还是说它是那个具有破坏性的心灵的产物?
53:52 So it becomes all-important to find out for yourself, if you are at all serious, how you observe, whether you observe the ‘me’ as an outsider looking in, observing the ‘me’ as from a superior self – you are following all this? – and therefore accepting division, or do you see this whole phenomenon as a whole movement, non-verbally? 所以最重要的是你自己去发现 ——如果你真的很认真的话—— 你是如何观察的, 你是以一个局外者去向内观察“我”, 以一个更高的自我去观察“我”, ——你们跟上这些了吗?—— 并因此接受了分裂, 还是你把这整个现象 视为一种整体的运动,并非口头上说说而已?
54:57 Therefore, when you see it non-verbally, non-ideologically, then you are in direct contact with that which is dangerous, therefore you act immediately, not in a future date. 所以,当你不带语言文字地去看它, 不带意识形态地去看时, 那么你就能直接面对那个危险, 因此你就会即刻作出行动, 而不是等将来某天才做。
55:20 And that's one of our conditionings: we accept a gradual process of action. 而这是我们的局限之一: 我们接受了渐进式的行动。
55:33 That is, we say to ourselves, ‘I will change later, gradually. 也就是,我们对自己说, “我以后会慢慢作出改变。
55:41 It’s impossible to change instantly.’ The churches, the religions, the psychologists, the analysts accept this: you can’t change instantly, you must have time. 我不可能立即改变。” 教会、宗教、 心理学家、心理分析师都接受了这一点: 你无法立即改变,改变必须要花时间。
56:00 You must have time to go to heaven, but in the meantime sow the seeds of mischief. 你需要时间才能进天堂, 然而在此期间你撒却下了伤害的种子。
56:13 So you accept that as part of your culture, which induces laziness, wastage of energy, and destructive activity all the time. 所以你接受这是你所处文化的一部分, 这导致了惰性、 能量的浪费, 以及时时刻刻的破坏活动。
56:36 So the question becomes extraordinarily important to ask, whether you can bring about a change instantly in yourself, psychologically. 所以问这个问题就变得极其重要: 你能不能立即带来一种 内心的转变,心理上的转变?
56:53 And as you see, it can be done instantly: when you see danger, the danger of this division between man and man, created by thought, which is the ‘me’. 而如你所见,这是立即可以做到的事: 当你看到危险, 人与人之间这种分裂的危险, 那是由思想——也就是“我”——所造成的。
57:16 So one asks, can one live in this world without the ‘me’? 所以我们问,我们能不能无“我”地活在这个世界上?
57:24 You understand my question? 你明白我的问题吗?
57:31 The ‘me’ that is ambitious, the ‘me’ that's competitive, the ‘me’ that's pursuing everlastingly pleasure, through power, status, money, sex. 那个野心勃勃的“我”, 那个争强好胜的“我”, 那个不断追求快感的“我” ——通过追逐权力、地位、金钱、性爱。
57:53 We are not saying that you mustn’t seek pleasure. 我们不是说你不可以寻求快感。
58:00 To observe the phenomenon of pleasure, what is involved in it. 去观察快感这一现象, 其中所涉及的东西。
58:11 You know, there is a great difference between pleasure, enjoyment and joy. 你知道,这三者有着很大的差别 ——快感、欢乐和喜悦。
58:27 When you see a beautiful thing, there is complete enjoyment of that beauty. 当你看到一个美好的东西, 你会完全享受那份美所带来的欢乐。
58:37 When you see the mountains in the evening light, there is great delight, there is great, full enjoyment of the beauty of that light on that hill. 当你看见晚霞中的山峦, 你心中会生起无限的愉悦,那是巨大的、全然的欢乐, 观赏那优美的光彩挥洒于山峦之间。
58:51 But when that enjoyment is pursued by thought, wanting it to be repeated tomorrow, then it becomes pleasure – as you do sexually. 但当思想追求这份欢乐, 希望明天重复它,它就变成了快感 ——就像你做爱一样。
59:20 And pleasure has nothing whatsoever to do with joy. It comes naturally, unexpectedly, fully. 而快感和喜悦没有任何关系。 喜悦是自然产生的, 不经意间,全然地到来。
59:36 But when it comes, and gone, thought picks it up and says, ‘I must pursue that, I must have joy’ and therefore it becomes pleasure. 但当它来了又逝去之后,思想会记住它然后说, “我必须去追求它, 我必须获得喜悦。” 如此一来,它就变成了快感。
59:54 So when you see all this clearly, without any choice, for choice exists only when there is confusion, when you see clearly that the beauty of this valley must be kept as beautiful, there is no choice. 所以当你看清这一切时 ——毫无选择地看清它, 因为当我们内心混乱时才会有选择—— 当你清楚地看到 自己强要把这山谷的美作为一种美好留住时, 那就不存在选择了。
1:00:23 You do everything to keep it, elect the right person and so on. 你千方百计去留住它, 选举正确的领导人,等等。
1:00:32 It is only when you are confused, not clear, then you choose, and out of that choice you create conflict. 只有当你混乱、迷糊时, 你才会去选择, 而经由那份选择,你就制造了冲突。
1:00:49 So it is of great importance to see clearly, without any distortion. And there is distortion when there is the ‘me’ which divides. Right. 所以,最重要的是去清楚地看 而没有任何扭曲。 而我们的看会有扭曲 ——如果存在一个搞分裂的“我”。好了。
1:01:08 Now, would you care to ask questions? 现在,你们想提问吗?
1:01:15 Questioner: Sir, I have a question. 提问者:先生,我有一个问题。
1:01:17 K: Just a minute, sir. Take a breath. You know, to ask a question not only of the speaker, but to ask a question of yourself, and to put the right question... 克:等一下,先生。 请吸一口气。 你知道,问一个问题 ——不只是问讲话者, 也是问你自己, 要提出正确的问题
1:01:50 To put the right question... If you put the right question, you get the right answer. If you put the wrong question, of course, there is no answer to it. 你要提出正确的问题 如果你提出正确的问题,你就会得到正确的答案。 如果你提出错误的问题,当然,它就没有答案了。
1:02:07 So it is very important to put the right question, and to find out why you put that question, because in the very asking of the right question there is the right answer. 所以提出正确的问题非常重要。 同时也要搞清楚为何你会提出那个问题, 因为正是在正确的提问中, 正确的答案就产生了。
1:02:25 And to whom are you asking the question? 还有,你在向谁提问呢?
1:02:32 Are you putting the question to the speaker to get the answer, or are you putting the question in order to investigate together? 你是向讲话者提问然后让他给你答案, 还是你提问是要我们一同去探究呢?
1:02:48 If you are putting the question in order to investigate together, we are sharing together the question. 如果你提问以便我们能够一同去探讨它, 我们就在一同分担那个问题。
1:02:56 Which means, a question shared means that it is an intense question, that it is a problem. 那表示,一个共同分担的问题意味着它是个尖锐的问题, 它是个难题。
1:03:09 And sharing implies, as we pointed out, that you must be at the same level, at the same time, with the same intensity, otherwise the question has no meaning. 而分担则意味着——正如我们曾指出的—— 我们必须处于同样的层次, 处在同一节拍上,有着同样的强度, 不然问题就没有意义,
1:03:20 You can’t share it. All this doesn’t prevent you from asking the question, please. 你就无法分担它了。 说这些话并不是要阻止你们发问,拜托,
1:03:30 But to find out for yourself, deeply, why you are asking the question, whether it is superficial, casual, or a real question that demands action out of your own heart and mind. 而是要你自己去发现 ——深入地发现——为什么你会提出这个问题, 无论它是肤浅的、随意的, 还是一个很真实的问题,要求你付出整个身心去行动。
1:03:49 Right, let’s proceed. 好的,让我们继续下去。
1:03:51 Q: Sir, I would like to ask, as I’ve been sitting here listening to you speak, I get the feeling that what you want us to understand is a desire for us to understand... [inaudible] and it comes across to me that you do in fact want us to understand what you're saying. 提问者:先生,我想要问, 因为我一直坐在这里,聆听你的讲话, 我感到你想要我们明白的 是去了解自己的某种欲望……(听不清) 而我无意中发现, 你事实上是要我们去了解你所说的话。
1:04:10 To carry that on... [inaudible] K: Just a minute sir, the bells are louder. 要继续……(听不清)

克:等一下,先生,那些钟声太吵了。
1:04:47 Q: Can you hear me now, sir? 问:现在你听得到我说话吗,先生?
1:04:51 K: Sir, can you listen to those bells without verbalising it? 克:先生,你是否能够聆听那些钟声而不去诠释它?
1:04:59 Just to listen to the sound, not that it’s Catholic, Protestant church, or this or that, but just to listen to the beauty of the sound. 只是聆听那些声音, 而不管它是来自于天主教的还是新教的教堂, 或这个或那个,而只是聆听那美妙的钟声。
1:06:21 Right, sir. 对吗?先生。
1:06:23 Q: I'm afraid I forgot the question. 问:我恐怕我已忘了我要提的问题。
1:06:35 K: Have you... Some of you probably are practising what is called transcendental meditation, aren’t you? Some of you? 克:你是否曾经 你们中也许有人正在练习 所谓的“超觉冥想”, 不是吗?你们中的某些人?
1:06:52 That is, through repetition of a mantra, which is the sound, float off into something. 也就是,通过反复诵念一个咒语 ——也就是声音, 飘浮到某种状态中。
1:07:11 We won’t go into this whole question of meditation, perhaps we will tomorrow morning. 我们不会探讨整个冥想的问题, 明天早上我们或许再来讨论它。
1:07:25 Sound has extraordinary importance. 声音有着非凡的重要性。
1:07:32 After all, music is sound. 毕竟,音乐就是一种声音。
1:07:39 To hear something very clearly, without any interpretation, without any distortion, is a marvellous thing. 非常清晰地聆听某物, 不作任何诠释, 没有任何扭曲 ——是一件了不起的事。
1:07:55 To hear another speak and to listen to it without any interpretation, then you are in direct relationship with that speaker. 去聆听他人讲话,只是聆听而不作任何诠释, 那你就与讲话者有了直接的关系。
1:08:14 Perhaps some of you, this morning, listened without interpreting, without comparing, without saying whether he is contradicting himself, or this or that – actually listening, without any image between you and the speaker. 可能你们之中的一些人,在这个早上,可以聆听 而不作诠释,不作比较, 没有念叨讲话者是否自相矛盾, 或这个或那个,而是真正在聆听, 在你和讲话者之间没有任何意象。
1:08:40 Then you will see that if you listen so intently, then you are listening, and that act of listening absolves all problems. 那么你就会看到如果你很投入地聆听, 那你就是在真正地聆听, 而这聆听的行动会解除所有问题。
1:08:58 Now, sir, what was the question? Yes, sir? 现在,先生,你的问题是什么? 请讲,先生?
1:09:05 Q: I never did ask my question. 问:我还没提出我的问题。
1:09:06 K: I thought you had forgotten it. 克:我以为你忘了。
1:09:08 Q: No, that was just… I had not forgotten it. The question that I wished to ask was, as I sit here today, listening to you, I get the feeling that you are, as I say, emphatic that you want us to get what you have to say, you want us to understand what it is you are attempting to communicate. 问:不,那只是……我并没有忘记。 我想要提的问题是, 今天当我坐在这里,聆听你的讲话, 我感到你——如我所说—— 着重强调想让我们领会你所说的话, 你想让我们了解事实真相, 你在试图与我们进行沟通。
1:09:29 There is something inside you, and me, perhaps, that wishes to get this message across. 可能在你我的内心之中有某种东西, 它希望去传达这个信息。
1:09:38 You have a motivation, you have an inspiration, you have a drive inside you that makes you want to come here today, that makes you want to sit here and speak to us, that makes you want to communicate with us. 你内心有种动机、有种启示、 有种驱动力, 它们使你今天想要来到这里, 令你想要坐在这里对我们讲话, 令你想要与我们交流。
1:09:50 Where do you stand in relationship to that ‘me’? 那么你和那个“我”的关系是什么?
1:09:57 K: You come this morning, the questioner says, with a motive. 克:提问者说:你今天早上来到这里, 带着某种动机。
1:10:04 You want us to understand something of what you are saying, so it becomes a motive. 你想让我们了解你讲的某些东西, 因此它就成了一个动机。
1:10:14 You are emphatic in what you want to say. What is the relationship between that motive and the ‘me’ and the ‘me’ in me? Right. 你重点强调你想要讲的话, 那种动机和“我”之间, 和我内心的“我”之间是什么关系?好的。
1:10:31 First of all, what do we mean by communication? 首先,我们所说的交流是什么?
1:10:40 The word ‘to commune’ means to share, to think together, to create together, to be on the same level at the same moment, with the same intensity, otherwise you cannot understand what is being said. “交流”一词的意思是分享, 一同思考。 一同创造, 在同一时刻处在同一层次上, 拥有同等的热情, 不然,你就无法了解讲话者所说的一切。
1:11:10 That's what the word ‘communication' means. If you look it up in a dictionary you will find it. Now, the question is, 'What is the relationship, or the communication between the motive that makes you come here this morning and the ‘me’ that you must have in coming?' 这是“交流”一词的意思。 如果你查一下字典,你就能找到这个意思。 现在,问题是—— “它们之间有什么关系或联系——那个使你 今天早上来这里的动机 和在你来这里的动机中所必然包含的‘我’”?
1:11:45 Is that the question, sir? 这是你的问题吗,先生?
1:11:46 Q: Yes, that’s correct. 问:是,完全正确。
1:11:52 K: Now, why did I come this morning? 克:那么,为什么我今早会来这里?
1:11:59 What is the motive? First of all, is there a motive? 动机是什么? 首先,存在一个动机吗?
1:12:08 Motive, the word ‘motive’ means to move. What made me move to come here? “动机”一词,意思是去推动。 是什么推动我来这里?
1:12:24 Now, if I came here, if the speaker came here this morning in order to feel exhilarated, gather, from talking to you, a certain form of energy, that is, exploit you for himself – you are following all this? – then that becomes a particular kind of motive. 现在,如果我来这里, 如果讲话者今天早上来这里, 是为了通过演讲让自己高兴, 从中积累起某种能量, 也就是说,为了他自己的利益而剥削你们 ——你们跟上这些了吗?—— 那这就变成了一种动机。
1:12:59 That is, in addressing you, the speaker gets satisfaction, then it must be a motive. 也就是说,在对你们演讲时,讲话者者得到了满足, 那么这必然就是一种动机。
1:13:10 But if the speaker has no desire, or no intention of gathering strength or excitement or energy from talking, then there is no motive in that, is there? 但如果讲话者没有渴望、没有目的、 没想从演讲中获得力量、刺激或能量的话, 那么这之中就没有动机,不是吗?
1:13:28 You are following all this? I didn’t come to exploit you. The speaker is not here in order to derive a certain kind of thrill for himself in talking to people, that would be exploitation. 你们跟上这些了吗? 我不是来剥削你们的。 讲话者来这里并非为了通过对众人演讲 来为他自己寻求某种快感, 那将会成为一种剥削。
1:13:50 Right? So, it is not for that kind of motive he has come. 对吗? 所以,不是那种动机促使他来到这里。
1:14:00 Then why has he come? And who is asking this question? You, sitting there, saying, ‘Why have you come? What is the reason of taking all this trouble and addressing us? 那么他又为何来到这里呢? 又是谁在问这个问题呢? 是你,坐在那里的你 在问,“你为何来这里? 为什么这么煞费苦心地给我们演讲?
1:14:23 What is the point of it?’ Would you ask that question if you saw a beautiful flower? 这样做有何意义?” 如果你看到一朵美丽的花朵,你会这么问它吗?
1:14:36 Would you say, ‘Why do you exist? What is your motive? Why are you so beautiful? What lovely scent you have!’ Would you ask that question? You wouldn’t, would you? You would just look, you say, ‘How beautiful, how lovely.’ Then, what you look at is your own beauty. 你会不会问,“你为什么存在? 你的动机是什么? 为什么你这么美? 这么香气扑鼻!” 你会提那些问题吗? 你不会,不是吗? 你只是观赏, 你说,”那么美丽,那么可爱。“ 那时,你所欣赏的是你自身的美。
1:15:11 That’s all. You’ve understood the answer? 就是这样。 你明白这个回答了吗?
1:15:15 Q: Yes. 问:明白了。
1:15:19 Q: Sir, would you share with us some of your feelings when you observe a tree? 问:先生,你是否能与我们分享一下 你观察一棵树时的感受?
1:15:28 K: Would you share with us some of your feelings when you observe a tree, when you observe the mountain, when you observe the movement of a bird or the light on the water, or a face that is really beautiful, with a smile? 克:你能不能与我们分享一下 你观察一棵树时的感受? 当你观看山峦时, 当你观看鸟儿飞行时, 或者水面上的波光时, 又或者一张姣美的笑意盈盈的脸庞时?
1:15:52 What is your feeling? Share it with us, the gentleman asks. 你的感受是什么? 请与我们分享一下——这位先生问道。
1:16:04 I really don’t know, but we’ll try. 我其实并不知道,但我们来试一试。
1:16:15 First of all, when you observe a tree, you are not identifying yourself with the tree. 首先,当你观看一棵树时, 你并没有把自己认同于那棵树。
1:16:31 Identification with something is another phenomenon of separation. 认同于某样东西,是另一种分裂的现象。
1:16:39 Right? I identify myself with you because I am separate from you. 不是吗? 我让自己认同你是因为我和你是分开的。
1:16:50 I identify myself with God or with an idea or with some beauty because I am not beautiful, I identify myself with that. 我把自己认同于神, 或认同某种观念,或某种美, 因为我不美,所以我把自己等同于那种美。
1:17:02 Now, when I look at a tree, when the speaker looks at a tree, there is no identification with the tree, he doesn’t become the tree, thank God. 现在,当我观看一棵树, 当讲话者观看一棵树时, 没有与那棵树的认同, 他并没有变成那棵树——谢天谢地。
1:17:13 Right? That would be absurd if he became the tree. No? 不是吗? 如果他变成了那棵树,那就太荒谬了,不是吗?
1:17:22 So there is no identification. Then when you observe non-verbally, what takes place? 所以,没有认同。 那么,当你观察时——不带文字地观察, 会发生什么?
1:17:34 'non-verbally' implying without an image. Right? I am going into this very deeply, you are going to face this yourself, presently. “不带文字”是指不持有任何意象。 对吗? 我会非常深入地探讨这一点, 现在,你们要自己去面对它。
1:17:49 What takes place between the observer and the observed? 观察者与所观之物之间到底发生了什么?
1:17:58 If the observer is full of images, then the thing observed has no relationship with the observer. Right? 如果观察者脑中塞满各种意象, 那么,被观察之物, 就与观察者没有关系,对吗?
1:18:12 It is getting complicated. 事情变得复杂起来。
1:18:20 If there is an observer as the thinker, then there is a division between the observer and the observed. 如果有一个作为思考者的观察者, 那么在观察者和所观之物之间就存在一种分裂。
1:18:30 That’s clear, isn’t it? Right, sir? Now, can you observe the tree without the observer? 这是显而易见的,不是吗?对吗,先生? 那么,你能不能观看一棵树却没有观察者的存在?
1:18:43 The observer being the image, the knowledge, the verbal statement, 'That is an oak.' 观察者就是意象、 知识、 文字描述——“那是一棵橡树。”
1:18:54 That is, can you observe a tree without any image? 也就是说,你能不能观察一棵树而不持有对它的任何意象?
1:19:02 Then what takes place? 那时会发生什么?
1:19:11 There is a perception of the tree which you have never seen before. 就会有一种对这棵树的感知——你以前从未真正看到它。
1:19:20 There is a communication, sharing with the tree, the beauty of the tree, the shape of the tree, the leaf, the light of the sun on a particular leaf, you see the totality of it, without division, which is a totally different feeling from taking a drug which destroys the separation between you and the tree. 就会和这棵有一种交流和分享, 那棵树的美,那棵树的形态, 它的树叶,以及洒落在某片叶子上的阳光, 你看着这一切,没有分裂 ——这与吸毒的感觉截然不同, 它消除了你与树之间的分割。
1:19:48 We won’t go into that. Now, let’s move a little further. When you observe your friend, your wife or your husband, or your boy or girl, how do you observe? 那个问题我们就不深入讲了。 现在,我们再进一步来探讨。 当你观察你的朋友、你的妻子或丈夫, 或者你的儿子或女儿时, 你是如何观察他们的?
1:20:05 Don’t you observe with an image? The image that you have built about her or him? Don’t you? 你难道不是带着某个意象去观察的吗? 那个你为他们制造的意象,不是吗?
1:20:22 Obviously. Then what takes place? 很显然是这样。那么,又会发生什么?
1:20:29 Then there is division between you and the person whom you are observing. 那时会有一种分裂——在你和这个 你所观察的人之间。
1:20:37 So you never see the person at all, you are only seeing the person through the image that you have about that person. 所以,你根本没有看到他, 你看这个人 ——只是通过你对他抱有的意象在看。
1:20:48 Haven’t you noticed this phenomenon between a husband and wife, between people who have known each other for some time? 你难道没有察觉到这个现象吗 ——在丈夫与妻子之间, 在那些彼此熟识的朋友之间?
1:20:59 You are looking at that person through the image that you have built during the period of twenty, or five, or even a day. 你看那个人, 是透过你为他打造的意象去看 ——这个意象可能是通过二十年、五年、甚至一天内建立起来的。
1:21:10 So you are never in communication with that person. 所以你从未与那个人交流过。
1:21:20 So, you can be related or in communication with another only when there is no image being formed. 所以,如果你要和他人产生联系或者交流, 你心中就不能有为他打造的任何意象。
1:21:32 You know, it's quite an arduous task this, especially when you are living with somebody day after day, not to create an image about that person. 你知道,这是相当艰巨的事 ——特别是当你与某人天天生活在一起时—— 不为他打造一个意象是很困难的。
1:21:48 When you say, ‘I know that person’, you mean you know, or you have known, or knew him ten days, or ten years ago. 当你说,“我认识那个人”, 你的意思是你熟识他, 或者你已经了解那个人了, 或者十天前或十年前就认识他了。
1:22:03 You don’t know him as he is now. So, where there is an image, there must be division. 但你并不知道现在的他。 所以,当我们有了意象,就有了分裂。
1:22:16 And where there is an image, there cannot be any communication between you and another. 而当心中有了意象, 在你和另一个人之间就不可能有任何的交流。
1:22:25 And that's why our relationship with each other is so rotten. 那就是为何我们与他人之间的关系是那么的腐朽。
1:22:32 That's why we are perpetually quarrelling. 那就是为何我们永远都在争吵不休。
1:22:41 That's why, if you have an image about reality, about truth, about God, about the immeasurable, then there is a division between you and that. 那就是为何如果你对真相、 真理、上帝、那不可度量之物有了一个意象, 那么你与它之间就会存在分裂。
1:23:01 Yes, sir? 请讲,先生?
1:23:02 Q: Krishnamurti, K: Just a minute, sir. 问:克里希那穆提,

克:稍等片刻,先生。
1:23:06 Q: I'd like to know why you avoid the use of the term ‘I’ in reference to yourself. I am puzzled when I observe you. For example, you say, ‘When I’ then you correct yourself – K: Does not matter, sir, that's not important. 问:我想知道为何当你提到自己时, 会避免使用“我”这个字。 在我观察你时,我感到很费解。举个例子, 你说,“当我……”然后你就纠正你自己——

克:这不是关键,先生,这并不重要。
1:23:20 Q: You correct yourself and say, ‘The speaker'. 问:你纠正自己,然后说,“讲话者……”。
1:23:22 K: That's not important, surely. Yes, sir? 克:毫无疑问,这并不重要。 请讲,先生?
1:23:28 Q: Krishnamurti, I had no choice in being born. 问:克里希那穆提, 我无法选择我的出生。
1:23:35 [Inaudible] I have no choice in dying. (听不清) 我也无法选择死亡。
1:23:43 I did not create existence. I have no choice… [inaudible] Why are the problems in the world now, my problems? 我没有创造出生活。 我无法选择……(听不清) 为什么如今这个世界的问题就是我的问题?
1:23:56 K: I have no choice in being born, I have no choice in dying, I have no choice in all the problems that exist. 克:我无法选择我的出生, 我也无法选择死亡, 对于存在的一切问题,我都没得选择。
1:24:09 Why am I burdened with all these problems? Right sir, that’s the question, isn’t it? 为什么我要背负着这一切问题? 对吗,先生,就是这个问题,不是吗?
1:24:19 Q: Not completely. I am not insensitive to what is taking place in the world, but the world is not my creation. 问:不完全是。 我不是对世上所发生的一切麻木不仁, 但这个世界非我所创。
1:24:32 K: The world is not my creation, and I am not insensitive to the world. 克:世界非我所创, 而我对这个世界并不是麻木不仁的。
1:24:38 Q: [Inaudible] K: What is the question, sir? 问:(听不清)

克:你的问题是什么,先生?
1:24:51 Q: Why existence at all? 问:究竟为什么要存在?
1:24:59 K: Why do I exist at all? The fact is that you do exist. It is far more important to understand your existence than why you exist. 克:究竟为什么我要存在? 事实是你确实存在。 去了解你的存在远远要比 去搞清楚“为什么你会存在”更重要。
1:25:16 I exist, you exist, the world exists. 我存在、你存在、这个世界存在。
1:25:24 The world is me, I am the world. If you once understand this, not verbally, but actually feel it, know it, understand it, that you are the world, because you have created the world through your greed, through your ambition, through your competition, through your envy, through your violence, through your desire to fulfil – you have made this world. 世界就是我,我就是世界。 一旦你懂得了这点 ——不是从文字上,而是真正地感知到、 明白、了解这一点—— 即你就是世界, 因为是你创造了这个世界 ——经由你的贪婪、你的野心、 你的竞争、你的妒忌、 你的暴力、你想要满足的渴望, ——是你制造了这个世界。
1:26:00 You, your parents, your grandparents, the culture – you have made this world. 你、你的父母、你的祖父母、 你的文化——你造就了这个世界。
1:26:09 And if you say, 'I am not responsible for it, but my grandmother is’ it has no meaning. 而如果你说, “我对此不必负责,那是我祖母的责任”, 这是毫无意义的。
1:26:18 We are responsible for it, and therefore being responsible, we have to resolve it, we have to do something about it, not just say, ‘We are the world’ and just sit back. 我们都必须对此负责, 因为负有责任,所以我们必须去解决它, 我们必须对此有所作为, 而不只是说,“我们就是世界”,然后坐视不管。
1:26:34 So, to see what the world is, is to see ourselves. 所以,看清世界是什么, 就是看清我们自己。
1:26:43 And in the understanding of ourselves, we’ll resolve the problems not only of a human being but of the world. 而在了解我们自身之中, 我们就会解决各种问题——不只是一个人的问题, 而是整个世界的问题。
1:26:54 Q: [Inaudible] K: I understand, sir. 问:(听不清)

克:我明白,先生。
1:27:10 I want to listen to you, and that's why I came this morning, but my mind can’t sustain a long period through which I can listen. It wanders off. 我想听你的演讲,所以我今早来这里。 但我的头脑无法坚持长时间的 聆听。我总是开小差。
1:27:22 What am I to do? Is that it? Don’t do anything. No, please listen. If your mind wanders off, let it wander, which means you're really not interested in listening. 我该怎么办?是这个问题吗? 什么也不必做。 是的,请听好。 如果你开小差了,那就开小差吧, 那表示你其实没兴趣去听。
1:27:44 But if you say, ‘Well, I want to listen, and yet it wanders off' then you create conflict. You understand, sir? Let it wander off. Look at the tree. When you do look at the tree, look at it. 但如果你说,“哦,我想要聆听, 可我却总是开小差”,那么你就制造了冲突。 你理解了吗,先生? 就让它开小差吧。看着那棵树。 当你真的在看那棵树时,就好好看看它。
1:28:03 Look at it with all your being. And you can’t sustain... to look at the tree with all your being for a half an hour, so your mind wanders off, thinks about... I don’t know – tennis. 全身心地看着它。 但你无法持续 保持全身心地观看那棵树半个小时, 所以你开小差了, 去想……我不知道你会想什么——比如网球。
1:28:20 Then think about it! Don’t say, ‘I mustn’t think, I must listen.’ So, when you want to listen, listen as long as you can, completely, fully. 那就去想网球吧! 不要说,“我不该胡思乱想,我必须好好听。” 所以,当你想要聆听时,能听多久就听多久, 全然地、全神贯注地聆听。
1:28:40 And when the thought goes off to something else, watch that too, so that there is no conflict whatsoever. 而当你的思想游离到别的东西上,那么也去观察这件事情, 由此你的内心就不会有任何冲突了。
1:28:52 It is only the mind that is completely without conflict is a creative mind. That’s enough, sir. SUBTITLE COPYRIGHT TEXT 1972 KRISHNAMURTI FOUNDATION TRUST LTD 只有这样一颗完全没有冲突的心, 才是富有创造力的心。 到此为止了,先生。 克里希那穆提信托基金会字幕文字版权所有@1972年